#clojure – 2012-06-18

2012-06-18

01:16	michaelr525	good morning
01:16	michaelr525	!
01:28	tomoj	is there a good way to write new macros with recur semantics?
01:28	tomoj	e.g. imagine loop didn't exist, could you cleanly write it as a macro the way it works with recur?
01:30	tomoj	I suppose if you could, loop* wouldn't exist..
01:39	amalloy	tomoj: sure. you can macroexpand to ((fn [] ... (recur)))
01:40	amalloy	but you're stuck with recur
01:42	amalloy	you might find https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L108 relevant
01:42	amalloy	it's a loop-like construct that lets you use either a regular recur, or a lazy-recur, which goes through lazy-seq
01:43	tomoj	hmm
01:44	tomoj	I was thinking it would be harder to use an alternate name
01:44	amalloy	(sample usage at https://gist.github.com/776f35f77c198cf98bff)
01:44	tomoj	the lack of hygiene seems weird
01:45	tomoj	but that's better than whatever I was imagining with "recur", and no less hygienic..
01:46	amalloy	well, loop/recur aren't hygenic either, really. recur is a symbol implicitly captured by loop
01:46	tomoj	yeah
02:07	tomoj	it seems like in clojurescript if you (println 1 1), it prints "11\n", but (println 1 2) prints "1 2\n" O_o
02:12	bbloom	tomoj: ?
02:12	bbloom	tomoj: whoa. lol
02:12	bbloom	wtf?
02:13	tomoj	https://gist.github.com/2225f2e6152d9a052cb1
02:14	tomoj	ahh
02:14	bbloom	tomoj: yeah, i was just looking at that… i'm not sure what it's trying to do
02:14	tomoj	at first I was like, why the heck did they write lines 7-8, now I get it
02:15	tomoj	it's just a buggy version of interpose
02:15	bbloom	tomoj: yeah. do you want to make a patch?
02:15	tomoj	I will, but is there a CA I have to mail off :/
02:15	bbloom	can you open a ticket & i'll make a patch? :-)
02:16	tomoj	great
02:17	amalloy	wow, that's a pretty remarkable implementation of println
02:17	bbloom	amalloy: what's the "remark" you'd make about it? :-)
02:19	amalloy	i abstain
02:19	bbloom	amalloy: heh, i'm actual curious. what do you think is wrong with it?
02:21	tomoj	bbloom: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-319
02:21	amalloy	well, the obvious error, right? i think it's probably there's some more-general bug this is a special case of, something like "don't look at the values of your sequence if you're not supposed to care what they are"
02:22	bbloom	amalloy: oh. i thought you were referring to the more general pr-seq approach
02:22	bbloom	tomoj: thanks, testing a patch now
02:22	amalloy	i don't know enough about cljs's internals to comment on that
02:23	amalloy	i can't really tell what pr-seq does, even
02:24	bbloom	amalloy: in short, it's an optimization for building big strings out of many small parts. instead of stitching strings and re-stitching strings, you just always stitch them into a single buffer by walking over a sequence
02:25	bbloom	tomoj: there is also the same bug in pr-with-opts
02:26	tomoj	that's where I saw the bug, is it copied somewhere else?
02:26	bbloom	tomoj: oh, sorry, yeah, the other one is pr-sb
02:26	tomoj	ah
02:26	bbloom	tomoj: two versions of the same thing. one writes to "out" so to speak, and the other to a string buffer
02:27	bbloom	try println-str
02:27	bbloom	probably could be made higher order :-P
02:28	bbloom	actually, probably not w/ the string buffer and all… shrug i'll just make the fix twice :-)
02:29	tomoj	https://gist.github.com/e3c23b2ba35439c604c0
02:29	tomoj	not sure how I feel about this
02:29	bbloom	I'm fixing it :-)
02:30	bbloom	what's that after-loop stuff?
02:30	bbloom	async?
02:30	tomoj	(I mean about my macro, not the print bug)
02:30	tomoj	it's pretty much a port of rx's recursive relative-time scheduling
02:30	bbloom	ah neat
05:51	Kototama	what's the problem with maven today? first I got a problem downloading data.json and now that: http://paste2.org/p/2055280
05:55	Kototama	oh yeah 503 error http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/org/clojure/java.jdbc/0.1.2/java.jdbc-0.1.2.jar
07:18	cshell	cemerick: Why does the friend authenticate method need to be called for each URI? Couldn't we tie it specifically to the login url? It seems like the authenticate method could execute for a particular URI, update the session, and then not need to be called again - am i missing something?
07:23	cemerick	cshell: the authenticate middleware is what turns unauthorized accesses into redirects to your login uri. If you don't need that, then you could probably get by with applying it only to your login route.
07:24	cemerick	That might be a hint that authenticate should be split up into two separate bits of middleware. Something to think about, anyway.
07:25	cshell	cemerick: Okay, cool - I was looking at the OpenId workflow and it checks specifically that the uri is the login uri else it returns null
07:25	cshell	sorry, nil :)
07:26	cshell	I modeled my gitkit workflow off of that and only execute if we're on the callback uri - the one that comes back to us from the OpenId provider (so halfway through the existing openid workflow)
07:30	Chiron_	Hi, any performance penalties associated with multimethods?
07:31	ro_st	slower'n protocols :-)
07:32	Chiron_	in my case, check for a parameter and save to a different column family in cassandra depending on event type. I only have 6 cases
07:32	Chiron_	could be done with cond but multimethod provides a higher view (and some sexiness)
07:33	ro_st	coding for performance usually moves one away from coding for .. sexiness
07:34	ohpauleez	Chiron_: If you know you'll only have those six, and there's no possibility the domain will ever grow, you should use cond
07:34	ohpauleez	Optionally, use core.match, which will get compiled as cond
07:35	Chiron_	multimethods shouldn't be touched for a small number of cases?
07:35	ohpauleez	If the domain will grow, of the function used to classify them could change with business logic, use multimethods
07:36	ohpauleez	Chiron_: Multimethods are useful when you need open-ended dispatch on a variable number of things, and you know those things will change in the future (or you want to open the system to new things further down the road)
07:37	ohpauleez	* dispatch on more than just type
07:37	ohpauleez	If you're dispatching on type, just use a protocol
07:38	Chiron_	how much it is hard to learn and use core.match?
07:39	Chiron_	i know nothing about it
07:39	si14	ohpauleez: why did you split your framework to separate packets?
07:39	si14	btw, looks awesome
07:39	si14	*repos
07:39	ohpauleez	si14: There will be a "master" package/repo/clojars release
07:40	ohpauleez	the split is to allow people to use it ala carte if they're building up their own stuff
07:40	ohpauleez	For example, someone could build something and want to stand on top of just my pub sub stuff
07:40	ohpauleez	thanks! that's good to hear!
07:41	si14	ohpauleez: Google Closure will eliminate all dead code, doesn't it?
07:41	Chiron_	ohpauleez: what is your framework? :)
07:41	ohpauleez	si14: Yes, it totally will. But, I've had enough requests to split it up, so I did.
07:42	ro_st	which framework is this?
07:42	ohpauleez	Not ready for the public yet, but Shoreleave: https://github.com/shoreleave
07:42	ohpauleez	I'll be debuting it on Wednesday at the NYC Clojure meetup
07:43	ro_st	wicked!
07:43	Chiron_	a new web framework?
07:43	ohpauleez	It's a group of CLJS utilities
07:43	Chiron_	clojure on the server and the client?
07:43	ro_st	ohpauleez: i have a 'traditional' gclosure app which i'm aching to cljs-ify.
07:44	ohpauleez	not so much a framework, but what I had to build to start building serious CLJS apps
07:44	ohpauleez	ro_st: Shoreleave should help. It extends a lot of protocols to gClosure stuff
07:44	ohpauleez	Chiron_: yep!
07:45	ohpauleez	It allows you to expose server-side namespaces as namespaced client-side calls
07:45	ohpauleez	(and has security, like CSRF protection) built in
07:45	ohpauleez	and a bunch of other stuff haha
07:45	Chiron_	cool! how it differes from ClojureScript One ?
07:46	ohpauleez	CS:One is similar, but is more a collection of functions grouped into a base application that you can use as a starting block
07:46	ohpauleez	Shoreleave is a set of functions and services you use to build whatever you want
07:47	si14	I'm wondering if anyone actually made CS:One into useful app
07:47	Chiron_	"It allows you to expose server-side namespaces as namespaced client-side calls" something like DWR strategy?
07:48	ohpauleez	There's no starting block. You can use Shoreleave's pub sub system to declaratively bind your app together, the remotes package to call your server and third-party servers (like a SOLR server somewhere), there are embedded web workers, and a lot of browser functionality extended to CLJS facilities/protocols
07:48	ro_st	ohpauleez: a word of advice / a huge request: working sample code that exercises the stuff in the libraries, please!
07:48	ohpauleez	ro_st: On it's way, I have two apps: One that uses SOLR and JSONP. And the TODO app
07:49	ro_st	as a clojure newb, i have difficulty grokking clj libraries unless they map to stuff i'm used to
07:49	ohpauleez	again, this stuff isn't ready, I've been hesitant to talk about it (which is why it's not in Clojars yet)
07:49	ohpauleez	but it should all be there by Wednesday
07:49	ro_st	i would love it if someone (cough @ cshell) could share their friend implementations, for example
07:50	ohpauleez	ro_st: Also have a look at the Marginalia docs for each module. They're just in first drafts, but hopefully that'll help too
07:50	ro_st	it'd be awesome if friend had some samples
07:50	ohpauleez	ro_st: I toyed with the idea of a Shoreleave/Friend demo
07:50	ohpauleez	so maybe I'll see if I can make that happen
07:50	ro_st	cool, i will do ohpauleez. i'm still thoroughly in backend-land for a while, so i'll probably only get to shoreleave in a couple weeks
07:51	ohpauleez	(Client-side auth comes up often enough)
07:51	ohpauleez	cool
07:51	ro_st	very grateful that you're sharing with us, though. i love the idea of using clojure end to end
07:51	ro_st	i just found out travis-ci supports selenium testing!
07:52	cemerick	ohpauleez: What is Shoreleave?
07:52	ro_st	cemerick: https://github.com/shoreleave/shoreleave-core
07:52	ohpauleez	cemerick: CLJS bliss haha
07:52	ohpauleez	A collection of utilities for CLJS apps: to build end-to-end CLJS apps
07:53	ro_st	just reading the marg docs. looks great
07:54	ohpauleez	cemerick: a pub sub system that supports functions, atoms, local storage, and embedded web workers as topics. Embedded web workers. Exposing server-side namespaces as client-side namespace'd calls, wrapped browser functionality
07:54	ohpauleez	ro_st: Awesome!
07:55	ohpauleez	cemerick: CSRF-protection, and XSS escaping where needed
07:57	cemerick	hah, didn't realize that there's a cljs enlive impl
07:57	ohpauleez	It's pretty solid. It has DOM listeners, and DOM "Actions"
07:57	ohpauleez	so coupled with my pubsub, I can declaratively bind my entire application
07:58	ro_st	that is hot
07:58	ro_st	can't wait to see that in action
07:58	ro_st	so -ing tired of writing gclosure events
07:58	ro_st	feel like i have to sing 99 bottles of beer on the wall every time i want something to happen!
07:59	ohpauleez	Agreed!
08:02	ro_st	what is your approach to state in cljs, ohpauleez?
08:02	ro_st	as a newb, i'm not sure if stuff like MVC still applies in client side clojurescript
08:03	ro_st	i guess your todo example app will answer that :)
08:03	piranha	ro_st: heh, I have same problem (coming to mvc, wondering what to do with state)
08:03	piranha	started with reading https://github.com/lynaghk/c2-demos/blob/master/todoMVC/src/cljs/imtodo/core.cljs
08:03	piranha	*coming from mvc
08:04	piranha	backbone.js, etc
08:05	ro_st	right now i have a context obj which gets passed injection style to all the key manager classes, and each manager has its own internal state. managers all listen to each other and event out when they need to share state changes or when views need to update
08:06	ro_st	easily 50% of my code is all the hopscotchery of state declaration and setting state (and testing same)
08:07	ro_st	the state machine stuff in cljs one looked a bit alien to me, to begin with. seemed like a helluva lot to go through to move back and forth between the two simple views that its sample has
08:07	piranha	yeah... I'm jumping between different approaches, still can't decide how should it be done :(
08:08	ro_st	cemerick: -grin-
08:08	piranha	tried to get simple event system + state, which fires those events
08:08	piranha	but it was a bit creepy to me, so I scraped it...
08:09	ro_st	this is why ohpauleez's declarative bindings sounds great. in adobe flex, we had the same thing. views were templates + bindings, and simple event handlers to deal with user interactions -> model changes
08:09	piranha	it would be interesting to see some at least moderately sized application
08:09	ro_st	yes. agreed
08:09	piranha	hm, declarative bindings?
08:09	piranha	yes, in backbone we have the same: models, and views, which render templates and handle user input and model changes
08:10	ro_st	yes. <Label text="{ thing.name }" />. change thing or thing's name, and Label's text is replaced
08:10	piranha	yep
08:11	ro_st	they did decl bindings with a compilation step. that'd be compiled down to as3 with enough event boilerplate for a small country
08:12	ro_st	was nice to use, but performance is horrible.
08:12	piranha	:-)
08:12	piranha	so, are his declarative bindings available somewhere? :-))
08:13	ro_st	as he said: cljs-enlive and shoreleave-pubsub
08:13	ro_st	he's doing a release of shoreleave on wednesday. i'd hold out until then :-)
08:13	piranha	:-)
08:14	piranha	hey, here is quite a bit of good stuff on shoreleave github org
08:14	piranha	I guess I can stop using most of google closure
08:14	piranha	sounds great ;D
08:17	piranha	ah, it still uses goog.* behind the scenes
08:17	ro_st	it will do. cljs uses goog
08:17	ro_st	you want to use goog. you just don't want to have to write that code yourself, like i am currently :-(
08:17	ohpauleez	piranha: Yeah, it just wraps most of the nonsense up
08:18	ro_st	thousands of dev hours in that library, lots of battle testing across more browsers than we could ever hope to virtualise ourselves
08:18	ohpauleez	ro_st: I manage state in the DOM and local storage. Only one of my apps uses an atom to hold "join-data" for state
08:18	piranha	ohpauleez: yeah, the thing is that I've used Jsonp from goog yesterday and resulting (compiled with :advanced) file became 10k bigger...
08:18	ro_st	so anything that isn't present in the view (ie, on display) is in local storage?
08:19	ohpauleez	ro_st: More often than not
08:19	ohpauleez	My layout looks like this:
08:19	piranha	ohpauleez: hm, what's wrong with atoms?
08:20	ohpauleez	main.cljs -> hook up history, wire up the bindings, set up brepl, attach listeners. listeners.cljs -> all the listeners I need. render.cljs -> All the DOM actions I need and the template functions
08:21	ohpauleez	then a file per major action of service
08:21	ro_st	that sounds awesome. can't wait to see a working project.
08:21	ohpauleez	like search.cljs if I'm working with SOLR. mail.cljs for all my remote calls for emailing
08:21	ohpauleez	piranha: Nothing, I just don't have a use for them
08:21	piranha	ok :)
08:23	ohpauleez	piranha: I still use atoms, but more often than not. The data tucked in the DOM and pushed into localStorage is enough
08:23	ohpauleez	but more often than not, **
08:24	piranha	yeah, I see, it's just that I'm used to backbone's approach of storing everything in your objects and syncing to DOM/localStorage/server when I need/want this
08:24	piranha	and atoms sound like a perfect replacement for this :)
08:24	ro_st	i've been doing the MVC thing: user action event triggers a command class (so i can track usage and do undo/redo). command affects model. model changes event out, causing listening views to re-render their DOMs
08:25	piranha	yep, and atoms with add-watch sound like good plan there to me...
08:25	ohpauleez	ro_st: I think there is a different paradigm that CLJS opens up in the client. I'm not sure MVC is the best approach. Most of my apps operate on streams of data/actions. They're shaped a lot like how I write backend systems for Clojure. Declarative/reactive bindings seem the best fit here.
08:25	piranha	hm
08:26	piranha	I'd like to see working code if that would be possible, honestly, I really need shift in my head it seems :)
08:26	ohpauleez	When I need to store data across multiple interactions, I use an atom. When I want to save off parts of results or large data sets, I use localStorage. I save small nuggets of view-specific data with the history via HTML5 history API
08:27	ro_st	interesting
08:27	ohpauleez	There is still very much a separation between data, view, control/binding - but it doesn't force you to solve all problems with the same devices (something I think Backbone suffers from)
08:28	ro_st	my app is document based. start it up, choose a library of content to work from, create your own document, save/export. so i definitely need the M in MVC here
08:28	ohpauleez	regardless of the best approach, using CLJS has been a blast and extremely productive
08:29	ro_st	the library of content can be an atom (because you can switch libraries) and any amount of fns to retrieve data (it's quite structured). the user's doc can also be an atom, and internally it'll have all the required state… undo/redo, user-added data, etc
08:29	ohpauleez	ro_st: Yeah, you need to manage incremental changes. This is the type of app most people are coming up against
08:29	ro_st	yes
08:29	piranha	argh, I have to run. ohpauleez: if you'll do some write up or open source release, it would be awesome to see them :)
08:30	ro_st	two atoms, because i want to be able to easily serialise and deserialise the workspace atom from localstorage or the server
08:31	ro_st	another big use of state in client-side js is for performance: reducing repeated lookups by caching local references
08:32	ro_st	i wonder how well the gclosure compiler is able to optimise for this from cljs's generated js
08:32	ro_st	(if at all)
08:33	ohpauleez	ro_st: So one thing I'm not sure about is the need to go atom->ls or ls->atom
08:33	ohpauleez	I extended protocols to ls, so you can use it in sane way. Which is why I haven't made use of atoms (I just bang on localstorage)
08:34	ohpauleez	I'm not sure this is a good practice, but it saves me one layer of control logic
08:34	ro_st	for example, i want users to be able to resume (on mobile). so save-button serialises the workspace into LS. reloading the browser page fetches your latest save and re-hydrates the view
08:36	ohpauleez	Right. But I'm just not sure the advantage of using an atom to store off partial data (say, all the things related to user) over having a :user entry in ls
08:37	ro_st	again, performance. localstorage stores strings
08:37	ro_st	not objects
08:37	ohpauleez	and using (assoc! ls :user {}) => (reset! user-atom {})
08:37	ohpauleez	but we have the reader
08:37	ohpauleez	so now it stores everything
08:37	ro_st	i thought you can't eval clj browser-side?
08:37	ohpauleez	you can read it, you can't veal it
08:37	ohpauleez	eval*
08:38	ro_st	so you can get back maps, vecs, sets and lists of primitives, but not of fns that you can then execute?
08:38	ro_st	interesting
08:38	ohpauleez	exactly
08:39	ohpauleez	and I wrapped all that up
08:39	ohpauleez	works in cookies too
08:39	ohpauleez	and in history states
08:39	ro_st	very compelling
08:39	ro_st	definitely going to have to play with it
08:39	ro_st	just need to figure out a way to not have to sleep anymore
08:39	ohpauleez	haha
08:40	ro_st	what's the cljs testing story like?
08:40	ro_st	midje et al?
08:41	ohpauleez	ro_st: That story is largely absent, but there people are working on it
08:42	ohpauleez	At tutorspree, we have cucumber+selenium anyway, and that continues to work for us
08:42	ro_st	ok cool. right now i use jasmine bdd specs (written in coffeescript)
08:42	ohpauleez	jasmine is awesome too
08:42	ro_st	and i run them on my CI via a 3-liner cuke
08:43	ro_st	excellent. exciting
08:46	ro_st	trying to use a non-Emacs editor after using Emacs for a couple weeks is infuriating
08:52	TimMc	C-s C-s C-s dammit why can't I search?
08:53	ro_st	C-M-space to select a form. C-a and C-e for start/end line (amazing how quickly those stick!) C-c C-c C-d for docs
08:54	ro_st	i can already see a javascript-mode emacs setup on the horizon
09:01	vijaykiran	ro_st: I think you mean js2-mode :)
09:01	ro_st	yes, thank you!
09:02	ro_st	i can use paredit with that, right?
09:02	foxdonut	ro_st: I feel the same way about vim
09:02	foxdonut	emacs has too many keystrokes to get things done
09:03	vijaykiran	ro_st: didn't try it but yes, you can
09:03	ro_st	i can do silly stuff like store some clojure source in a database, and pull it out and eval it and execute it, assuming a standard interface for calling into the code, right?
09:04	vijaykiran	ro_st: yes, check eval
09:04	vijaykiran	,(doc eval)
09:05	vijaykiran	you probable need to load the text first, since eval operates on datastrcture
09:05	ro_st	ok so to use eval i'd first have to (read ) it first
09:05	ro_st	-first
09:05	ro_st	oh i see (load)
09:05	ro_st	perfect
09:07	ro_st	is there a variant that'll load, run some code in a closure, and then unload it all again once the closure completes? kinda like with file io
09:07	ro_st	like with-open
09:07	vijaykiran	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/read
09:08	vijaykiran	example looks like what you want
09:09	ro_st	that looks great. so in my case, i'd (read r) and then add (func-from-that-file args-it-expects) and it'd return its results all the way up and toss all the transitory stuff
09:10	TimMc	I hope you have a good reason for using eval...
09:10	TimMc	or are you just playing around?
09:11	ro_st	use case is that items in our library have quiz elements and each quiz is different. i'd like to put a small clojure fn in each library item that calcs the associated quiz's results, so that when that quiz is submitted, server reaches in, finds the result-calc, calcs it, and stores the result
09:11	ro_st	without having to hard-code each quiz into the main server codebase
09:12	vijaykiran	ro_st: probably a dumb question - but is there a way you can just save the "rules" of calculating the quiz results instead of storing implementation ?
09:13	vijaykiran	may be you can avoid read/eval
09:14	ro_st	i should probably look into doing that
09:14	foxdonut	Storing code in the database is a Bad Idea.
09:14	foxdonut	ro_st: as I crawl on the ground, bloody and half-dead, I whisper, "don't do it!"
09:14	ro_st	in this case, it's more storing a formula that is expressed as evaluatable code
09:15	vijaykiran	well, this can be a valid usecase for that - considering it as "rule" for the rule engine
09:15	ro_st	otherwise i have to concoct a rules language and a parser
09:15	vijaykiran	:)
09:15	TimMc	ro_st: How complex a formula might you have?
09:16	ro_st	it's really ridiculously simple. ensure i have 40 answers. check each one against the quiz for = or not=. sum up the hits. return a percentage
09:16	ro_st	some quizes need two distinct percentages, each using some subset of the answers. some quizes allow multiple correct answers. some require all the correct answers to be present
09:17	foxdonut	ro_st: you could perhaps store the name of the function and just have a name->fn map in code?
09:17	foxdonut	then, no eval
09:17	ro_st	ie, super easy to express in JS (current impl) or clojure. but a P.I.T.A to create a language and parser for
09:17	ro_st	i could do that, but that puts concrete impls back into my main codebase, which is precisely what i'm trying to avoid
09:18	ro_st	down the road i want to use this same clojure code (as cljs) to present results clientside, and then have the server re-run the server-side copy to validate
09:18	ro_st	i could clojail it? wouldn't that prevent the disadvantages somewhat?
09:19	TimMc	ro_st: No, it's your own data, so clojail isn't indicated.
09:20	TimMc	ro_st: No parser is needed, just read in some data structures and process them.
09:22	TimMc	You can read in something like {:main {:qCount 40, :answers {0 1, 1 1, 2 3, 3 0...}}, :alt {...}} where :main is the main score, :alt is some other one...
09:22	TimMc	qCount isn't needed either, for that matter, just count the answers map.
09:22	TimMc	ro_st: Scoring code isn't programmatically modifiable in the general case, but data structures are.
09:22	ro_st	qcount is to validate that the client sent enough answers. otherwise i could answer one correctly and send it and get 100%
09:23	ro_st	ok. i'll have a go at this approach
09:23	TimMc	"just count the answers map" <-- as in, the expected answers
09:23	ro_st	oh, right :) duh
09:23	TimMc	:-)
09:23	ro_st	thanks guys. eval avoided.
09:24	TimMc	\o/
09:24	ro_st	i promise not to store code in the database, foxdonut, even at Web Scale
09:24	TimMc	haha
09:25	ro_st	oh, he left
09:26	ohpauleez	dustingetz: it's nice to see you in here as a regular
10:05	alexyakushev	Hello, could anyone please tell how can I provide some arguments to AOT-compilation process so the code being compiled would be aware of them?
10:06	alexyakushev	In other words, I have two types of AOT-compilation: "debug" and "release", and I want the macroexpansion to depend on whether is used
10:07	ifesdjeen	alexyakushev: can't you use leningen2 profiles for that?
10:07	ifesdjeen	like --with-profile debug etc
10:07	TimMc	alexyakushev: Perhaps some environment variables?
10:08	alexyakushev	TimMc: I thought about it, but where can I set them? Before calling to clojure.core/compile?
10:09	alexyakushev	TimMc: I mean, via System.setProperty() ?
10:09	ro_st	alexyakushev: you can prepend calls to lein wth env vars
10:09	ro_st	DEBUG=true lein2 compile
10:09	TimMc	FOO_MODE=release lein uberjar
10:10	TimMc	and then use System/getenv
10:11	alexyakushev	ro_st, TimMc: Thanks, that's an option, but I already use "DEBUG=true" calls to act like I'm running the Leiningen itself in the debug mode, not the application I'm compiling
10:11	TimMc	Do the env vars get through to your macro code?
10:14	alexyakushev	TimMc: I've just tried to do "FOO=true lein compile" and it didn't end up in (System/getProperties)
10:15	alexyakushev	Or it should be inside the System/getenv ?
10:16	TimMc	getenv
10:16	alexyakushev	Yes, it works with System/getenv, but I'm still rather control it from inside
10:17	alexyakushev	Perhaps, System/setProperty will be OK if I pickup a property that does not mingle with anything else
10:18	ro_st	just use a unique name
10:18	alexyakushev	OK, thanks for your help!
10:18	ro_st	thanks for teaching me how to do this in future :-)
10:19	gfredericks	am I crazy, or is there no simple way in minikanren to reverse a list faster than O(n^2)?
10:26	ro_st	looks like you're crazy :-)
10:49	wjlroe	Is there any ring middleware (or something like that) for recompiling my clojure code for every request (in development, while running with slime/swank) ? I tried writing my own but it didn't work
10:50	wjlroe	The reason being, if I change a template file, enlive doesn't serve up the new one until the deftemplate is recompiled
10:50	vijaykiran	I think ring has wrap-reload
10:51	vijaykiran	but it doesn't monitor html files - enlive has few forks that do it for you
10:51	wjlroe	oh ok, interesting
10:53	dnolen	gfredericks: you should look at Prolog solutions to this, nrev
10:54	dnolen	gfredericks: I believe most Prolog implementations may cheat with nrev - it is handled specially.
10:55	dnolen	gfredericks: similarly, I see no problems with just calling Clojure reverse from within your core.logic program.
11:03	gfredericks	dnolen: surely reverse wouldn't handle a logic variable
11:14	lypanov	is this a new thing?
11:14	lypanov	maven failing on release day?
11:17	lypanov	anyone know what i can replace repo1.maven.org with?
11:21	lypanov	:(
11:21	lypanov	first two releases on clojure and both failing. this is really not looking good to the rest of the team.
11:21	vijaykiran	http://uk.maven.org/maven2
11:22	vijaykiran	lypanov: ^
11:22	lypanov	vijaykiran: ah so repo1 is the central but is mirrored everywhere else.
11:22	lypanov	where can i place that in order to have lein ignore central?
11:22	lypanov	currently central is 503ing on everything after multiple minutes.
11:22	lypanov	has been doing since this morning.
11:23	lypanov	do i just add an extra repo line to project.clj?
11:23	lypanov	or should i edit my maven config itself somehow?
11:24	vijaykiran	try - http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-mirror-settings.html
11:25	lypanov	"For example, the ID of the main Maven Central US repository included by default is central"
11:25	lypanov	missed it first time i read that page. thx for linking again!
11:25	lypanov	so i'm guessing the repo line in lein can also just take that
11:25	lypanov	and it'll override… trying.
11:27	lypanov	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: central (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
11:27	lypanov	meh
11:28	lypanov	the exact block of code from the page in a new settings.xml (didn't have one) is doing the same.
11:29	lypanov	does anyone know how to make leiningen not check maven but instead just use my lib/ dir?
11:29	lypanov	as if release wasn't stressful enough.
11:29	lypanov	will be ripping out maven asap. just as bad as its always been.
11:30	vijaykiran	lypanov: set :offline? to true
11:30	vijaykiran	lypanov: to make leiningen not check maven
11:31	vijaykiran	lypanov: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L164
11:32	lypanov	thank you.
11:32	lypanov	owe you a few pints if we ever meet.
11:35	Wild_Cat	hrmm. Clojure uses not= instead of !=. Surprising.
11:35	uvtc	I'd wondered about that myself.
11:38	Wild_Cat	it's weird how functional languages all use a weird operator construct for that.
11:38	uvtc	Oh well though, 6 of one, half-dozen of the other.
11:39	Wild_Cat	yeah, its not that much of a problem. Plus, at least, not= looks more explicit and obvious than /= or <>
11:39	mhanson	help
11:39	mhanson	Hm.
11:40	lucian	haskell is pretty insane about its function names
11:40	lucian	<, >, <*>, ==<, ...
11:40	lucian	and don't forget $
11:41	RickInGA	>>=
11:41	lypanov	vijaykiran: lein run just ignores it.
11:41	lypanov	what is the way that most people are doing this?
11:41	lypanov	as in, what am i doing wrong?
11:41	pepijndevos	How does detect-silence work in Overtone?
11:42	pepijndevos	I want to detect-noise and then run a synth
11:42	lypanov	or is it really just me for which two production runs in a row have involved maven failures?
11:42	Wild_Cat	lucian: yeah, Haskell is crazy about 4-non-alphanumeric-character operators :p
11:42	lypanov	does http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/noir-cljs-lypanov/noir-cljs-lypanov/0.3.5/noir-cljs-lypanov-0.3.5.pom fail to respond for anyone else?
11:43	zacht	lypanov 404
11:43	vijaykiran	lypanov: try adding offline in settings.xml
11:43	lucian	Wild_Cat: yeah, you'd think naming things hadn't occured to them
11:43	lypanov	zacht: wtf?
11:43	axle_512	emacs/clojure question: Any reason why I would get tab completion in the slime repl, but not while editing my .clj file?
11:43	vijaykiran	axle_512: check if clojure_mode is on?
11:43	semperos	axle_512: you have to do C-c TAB
11:44	Wild_Cat	lucian: well, when they do name things they use the opposite meaning of what's associated with the name (hello, return :p )
11:44	semperos	in a file, whereas at the REPL simply TAB does completion
11:44	lucian	Wild_Cat: that too
11:44	axle_512	semperos: that was it!
11:44	lypanov	zacht: 503 after 2-3 minutes here.
11:44	axle_512	semperos: thanks!
11:44	semperos	axle_512: np
11:44	Wild_Cat	I keep wanting to love Haskell for its elegance, but it keeps finding reasons for me not to.
11:45	Chiron_	Hi, for a structure like this: {:timestamp-1 {:links { .. } , :buttons {.. }}, :timestamp-2 {:links { .. } , :buttons {.. }} , this structure should be stored to a DB . what would be an idiomatic way to iterate over it?
11:45	Chiron_	as you figured it out, it is a data for analytics :)
11:46	semperos	Chiron_: what are you trying to do by "iterating over it"? what output do you need?
11:46	zacht	lypanov http://search.maven.org suggests that the repository has nothing with noir, cljs, or lypanov in its name.
11:47	zacht	lypanov In which case a 404 is exactly right. :-)
11:48	Chiron_	I need values to be saved to a database . for something like this :timestamp-1 {:links {blog-1 4} , :buttons {blog-11 100} blog-11 should be saved to table buttons and blog-1 should be saved to table links
11:49	lypanov	zacht: problem is, its not doing that.
11:49	lypanov	here its giving 503s.
11:49	lypanov	anyway, i'm done with this.
11:49	lypanov	time to replace this half assed toolchain.
11:51	lypanov	its fixed.
11:52	lypanov	nope. just a fluke. !@#$.
11:54	lynaghk`	dnolen: I didn't even know there was a clojurescript var; if that's the case, are there plans to remove the core.match.js custom namespace?
11:55	dnolen	lynaghk`: not really, that var is bound in macro in the core.match.js ns.
11:57	lynaghk`	dnolen: okay. I'll just change the keyset issue then. Do you want the patch against master or alpha9?
11:57	dnolen	lynaghk`: master please.
11:58	lynaghk`	dnolen: sure thing.
12:00	pepijndevos	how can I make overtone block until a sound has finished playing?
12:03	semperos	Chiron_: here's some example code: https://gist.github.com/2949115
12:03	semperos	with println's where you could write your DB-handling code
12:04	semperos	main tactic there is using destructuring to deal with your map structures
12:04	lypanov	how do most people deal with mavens complete lack of ability to keep a stable infrastructure?
12:04	lypanov	should i run my own local mvn server?
12:05	Chiron_	semperos: Thanks! that is really cool. I really appreciate your time :beerchug:
12:05	semperos	Chiron_: no problem
12:05	semperos	lypanov: that's what my company does
12:06	solussd	does anyone know if enlive supports sibling selectors?
12:07	pipeline	lypanov: yes you absolutely should
12:07	pipeline	lypanov: btw this sucker makes maven way easier to live with http://www.sonatype.org/nexus/
12:09	lypanov	are there any sanely priced cloud solutions?
12:09	lypanov	or is this secure / easy enough to setup that i can just shove it on a rackspace instance and be done?
12:12	lypanov	found the book. downloading.
12:20	lypanov	ibiblio works.
12:20	lypanov	uk doesn't work because it is the same damn thing as repo1
12:21	lypanov	(lots of fun that the freaking mirror example uses it therefore)
12:22	lypanov	also mirrorOf doesn't work.
12:22	lypanov	sigh
12:22	lypanov	Downloading: org/clojure/clojurescript/0.0-1069/clojurescript-0.0-1069.pom from repository central at http://repo1.maven.org/maven2
12:23	lypanov	still looking at the wrong thing.
12:24	lypanov	and <mirrorOf>*</mirrorOf> doesn't appear to be listened to by leiningen for some reason.
12:24	lypanov	(it still uses the fallbacks)
12:25	lypanov	okay fix for that last one is to not have something that doesn't actually exist.
12:26	lypanov	( ;) )
12:28	the-kenny	Is Central broken? We're having massive problems here.
12:29	lypanov	its down yes.
12:29	lypanov	use ibiblio.
12:29	lypanov	http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/maven2
12:29	lypanov	http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-mirror-settings.html
12:30	lypanov	first code block, replace uk mirror with http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/maven2
12:31	lypanov	(reason for that is that uk mirror is also down)
12:32	lypanov	its not really that its down. its just that they are all so incompetent that 404s are timing out instead of returning 404s.
12:36	technomancy	so this outage is about more than just the org.clojure group?
12:37	lypanov	yeah.
12:38	lypanov	basically unless you have a repo mirror with all content you're gonna see massive delays during deploy.
12:38	lypanov	so i'm gonna take pipeline and semperos 's suggestion and just set up nexus or something locally.
12:38	lypanov	twice now we've had release day critical failures.
12:38	lypanov	(and no, uberjar is not a solution i want to use)
12:39	technomancy	yeah, nexus would definitely insulate you from outages
12:39	lypanov	technomancy: i can't be angry at anyone other than myself that way :P
12:43	technomancy	related: http://whoownsyouruptime.com
12:43	pepijndevos	how do you install supercollider plugins into overtone?
12:46	technomancy	lypanov: what's your geographic region?
12:46	lypanov	europe. .nl.
12:48	technomancy	lypanov: it's taking 8 seconds here to return a 404 on central; is that close to what you're seeing?
12:48	lypanov	1 minute and upwards sometimes. let me check.
12:48	Bronsa	yeah, here too
12:48	Bronsa	[italy]
12:50	technomancy	ok, now I'm getting huge delays
12:52	technomancy	189.492 secs
13:03	lypanov	technomancy: trying in browser sometimes gives it back fast. more reliably broken without proxy as in curl.
13:50	S11001001	TimMc: what is this code-and-cocktails thing?
14:03	Chiron_	Hi, can we use a generic type in Clojure? in my case, I'm going to use Hector API http://hector-client.github.com/hector/build/html/content/getting_started.html
14:03	Chiron_	ColumnFamilyTemplate<String, String> template = .....
14:03	S11001001	Chiron_: yes, clojure is post-erasure, just pretend the typevars aren't there
14:03	Chiron_	S11001001: I'm totally in love with update-in and fnil xD blowed my mind
14:05	uvtc	"post-erasure"? What does Clojure have to do with 80's pop music?
14:06	uvtc	Chiron_, also get-in. So nice.
14:06	nDuff	uvtc: Java's generics are a language feature that isn't actually represented in the bytecode
14:07	nDuff	...so, the extra type information is discarded after being used for checking during compilation.
14:08	uvtc	nDuff, Oh, I see. Tried to make a joke, then learned something. :) Thanks.
14:17	TimMc	S11001001: Beats me.
14:17	Chiron_	clojurebot: do you like Frank Sinatra?
14:17	TimMc	lazybot: Do you like 70's music???
14:17	lazybot	TimMc: How could that be wrong?
14:18	Chiron_	huh! where is our lovely clojurebot ?
14:18	hiredman	oom killed, what I get for using a t1.micro
14:51	rdsr	On startup my clojure repl switches to a namespace I've decided.
14:51	rdsr	This namespace just "uses" other namespaces and doesn't define
14:51	rdsr	any of its own vars, but when my repl starts up I'm unable to
14:51	rdsr	access any of the public vars defined in other namespaces. Is
14:51	rdsr	there a way I can accomplish this?
14:51	rdsr	Here's my startup command
14:51	rdsr	java -cp $classpath clojure.main -e "(ns A) (clojure.main/repl) (in-ns 'A) (clojure.core/use 'clojure.core)"
14:51	rdsr	s/decided/defined
14:52	rdsr	what' im doing in namespce A
14:52	rdsr	(ns A
14:52	rdsr	(:use [B]
14:52	rdsr	[C]))
14:53	gfredericks	rdsr: you have a file with that code in it? is that file getting loaded?
14:54	rdsr	@gfredericks. Yes that file is A.clj
14:54	gfredericks	rdsr: how does it get loaded?
14:55	solussd_	can I "extend" a namespace without having to add (load …) forms to the original namespace file. E.g. if I wanted to add to the some.lib.thing namespace with a new file
14:55	rdsr	hmm. It mostly not getting loaded.
14:56	nDuff	rdsr: Consider require'ing A before switching to it.
14:56	rdsr	thanks @nDuff and gfredericks I'll try that out
14:58	SrPx	is clojure a lisp fam language? how is it different from cl and scheme?
14:59	rdsr	So something like "java -cp $classpath clojure.main -e "(ns A) (clojure.main/repl) (require 'A) (in-ns 'A) (clojure.core/use 'clojure.core)"" should work right?
14:59	nDuff	SrPx: (1) Yes (2) Lots of ways; it'd be easiest to start with a book.
14:59	AimHere	Yes; and the major difference is that it's not Lisp all the way up. Clojure is actually written in Java
14:59	AimHere	Also what nDuff said
14:59	AimHere	Also more parentheses
15:00	AimHere	You get to play with [] and {} as well as ()
15:00	nDuff	AimHere: ...not to be forgetting ClojureCLR...
15:00	AimHere	Or clojurescript
15:01	nDuff	(well, clojurescript still has Java involved, albeit not at runtime)
15:01	SrPx	is it more or less productive? (know it is subjective but any words on that?)
15:01	SrPx	I just have to chose which dialect to learn but it is hard because I well, dont know
15:01	nDuff	SrPx: Clojure is written with a very major focus on being useful for real-world work.
15:02	SrPx	more than java you'd say?
15:02	nDuff	SrPx: from that perspective, I'd take it over Scheme any day, and CL is just plain something of a mess (for historical reasons, but nonetheless)
15:02	sritchie	SrPx: clojure dev is much faster than java development
15:02	nDuff	SrPx: There's a major learning curve if you can't think in FP or LISPy terms yet, but once you've got that handled? Yes, very much so.
15:02	AimHere	Well CL is probably better if you want to write native applications; Scheme is better if you need an academic toy language. Clojure is for real work
15:03	SrPx	nDuff: learning clojure is enough to have an idea of what is lisp , what it has to offer, etc? without missing anything?
15:03	rdsr	thanks @nDuff and @gfedericks. Got it working now :)
15:03	SrPx	sritchie: kind of answer I'm expecting. what is faster than clojure, then? in your opinion
15:03	AimHere	SrPx, Pretty much, except that some of the implementation details aren't written in Clojure
15:03	SrPx	AimHere: sorry, what do you mean
15:04	AimHere	So if you're doing that SICP thing of writing your lisp in your lisp for learning or experimentation purposes, maybe scheme or CL might be more useful
15:04	mthvedt	are there any good guides or docs for implementing pprint for some data structure?
15:05	AimHere	SrPx, if you want to know how to implement Clojure, you have to learn some Java; that might be irrelevant to you, but it might not. Depends what you want
15:06	mattmoss	mthvedt: I just this moment did that, for a simple java object that pprint was stumbling over.
15:07	nDuff	SrPx: nod -- if having an idea of what a LISP means implementing one yourself, you might start with a simpler one. If you mean grokking enough of the concepts to be able to pick up another LISP quickly, Clojure should be fine.
15:07	mattmoss	(with-ns 'clojure.pprint (use-method simple-dispatch org.xyz.abc.LocalizedText #(pr (.toString %))))
15:07	mattmoss	with-ns coming from clojure.contrib.with-ns
15:08	mthvedt	mattmoss: thanks!
15:08	mattmoss	And this article, which is sadly incomplete. http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/doc/clojure/pprint/PrettyPrinting.html
15:08	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure/doc/clojure/pprint/PrettyPrinting.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
15:09	mattmoss	o_O
15:09	uvtc	SrPx: one thing Scheme does differently is that with Scheme you use cons/cdr for lists. Clojure just uses regular lists, and has extra built-in syntax for vectors, hash-maps, and sets. Clojure's quite likeable.
15:11	mattmoss	Lol... for a moment, I thought I was being scolded. Then I see it's just lazybot.
15:12	Wild_Cat	uvtc: aren't Clojure's lists implemented with cons cells?
15:12	uvtc	SrPx, so, if you go with Clojure, you sidestep the whole cons/car/cdr thing. Also, you asked about productivity: from Clojure you can directly access all Java libs (no wrapping libs or anything like that required). So, there's that.
15:12	cemerick	mattmoss: you were being scolded; richhickey.github.com is old :-)
15:12	Wild_Cat	(I do enjoy that they got rid of car and cdr, though)
15:12	uvtc	Wild_Cat, as far as I know, no.
15:12	ieure	Wild_Cat, They're actually arrays of java.lang.Object instances.
15:12	Wild_Cat	ieure: arrays? Now that's surprising.
15:12	ieure	Wild_Cat, Go read the source. It's enlightening.
15:12	Wild_Cat	I'd have expected vectors to be arrays, but surely not lists.
15:13	mattmoss	cemerick: Yeah, true that... But I thought a bot was scolding me for my answer to the pprint question, not the link.
15:13	mattmoss	I'm better now.
15:13	uvtc	cemerick, where should I send feedback on the Clojure Programming book?
15:14	cemerick	uvtc: as in, errata? help@clojurebook.com will do. I think O'Reilly has some form for submitting errata as well, but I don't have a link handy.
15:14	Wild_Cat	btw, are there any Clojure books (published or close to being so) that were written with 1.4 in mind?
15:14	uvtc	cemerick, Not errata. A section that seemed out of the blue to me.
15:15	nDuff	Wild_Cat: really, a book that covers 1.3 is close enough; 1.4 is not very different at all.
15:15	amalloy	Wild_Cat: lists are conses, but seqs are more general and might or might not be conses
15:16	Wild_Cat	nDuff: fair enough -- what about books written for 1.3? :p
15:16	nDuff	Wild_Cat: ...in terms of something recently published and quite up-to-date, I'd suggest the O'Reilly one (Clojure Programming)
15:16	Wild_Cat	OK, thanks
15:16	cemerick	Wild_Cat: The only significant additions in 1.4 are custom reader literals and mapv/filterv, and a variety of minor tweaks.
15:17	cemerick	uvtc: sure, help@clojurebook.com is a sane place for anything :-)
15:17	uvtc	cemerick, thanks. Will do.
15:17	Wild_Cat	cemerick: wasn't a bunch of stuff from contrib folded into the stdlib too? (note: Clojure noob, completely unsure of what I'm saying :p )
15:18	nDuff	Wild_Cat: The contrib reorg was a 1.3 thing.
15:18	cemerick	Wild_Cat: That happened in 1.2 and 1.3.
15:18	Wild_Cat	right. Thanks guys.
15:18	solussd_	new question, if I have two namespaces that I want to alias using (require <namespace> :as <alias>), can I have them, somehow, share an alias? i.e. all symbols from both namespaces can be accessed under the same alias?
15:23	cemerick	solussd_: There's always a way, but such a thing would be a horrible thing to do to anyone that looks at the code later. :-)
15:28	solussd_	cemerick: ;) fine… what I really want to be able to do is extend an existing namespace
15:28	cemerick	solussd_: that's much easier to do; but just don't do it from library code
15:29	solussd_	cemerick: yeah, just for me. e.g. I want to add validator functions to noir.validation, for example
15:30	cemerick	solussd_: mindful use of in-ns, then
15:33	jedmtnman1	why does this work
15:33	jedmtnman1	,(((comp symbol name) "foo")
15:34	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:34	jedmtnman1	or not
15:34	jedmtnman1	,((comp symbol name) "foo")
15:34	clojurebot	foo
15:34	jedmtnman1	but this does not
15:34	mhanson	,(not= true false)
15:34	clojurebot	true
15:35	mhanson	Is that the idiomatic way to do not-equal in Clojure?
15:35	jedmtnman1	(-> {:name "foo"} :name (comp symbol name))
15:35	mhanson	Or is (not (= true false) the more common way?
15:35	Bronsa	jedmtnman1: ##(-> {:name "foo"} :name ((comp symbol name)))
15:35	lazybot	⇒ foo
15:35	jedmtnman1	Bronsa: ah, hmm. is there a better way to write that
15:36	jedmtnman1	Bronsa: makes sense now that i see it, but still a little odd, no?
15:37	Bronsa	seems right to me
15:38	TimMc	jedmtnman1: ##(-> {:name "foo"} :name name symbol)
15:38	lazybot	⇒ foo
15:38	Bronsa	you can do ##(let [f (comp symbol name)] (-> {:name "foo"} :name f))
15:38	lazybot	⇒ foo
15:38	Bronsa	or that too.
15:38	jedmtnman1	TimMc, Bronsa, thanks!
15:38	TimMc	jedmtnman1: ##((comp symbol name :name) {:name "foo"})
15:38	lazybot	⇒ foo
15:39	Bronsa	,'foo ;even better!
15:39	clojurebot	foo
15:39	TimMc	genius!
15:39	Bronsa	:D
15:47	Chiron_	How core.match works? https://github.com/clojure/core.match#about unable even to understand the first example :"\
15:49	amalloy	about 500 instances of jedmtnman1's question could have been averted if -> and ->> didn't implicitly convert symbols to lists :P
15:51	Chiron_	I don't mean under the hood.
15:52	Chiron_	Oh, it matches match [x y z] for possibilities [t f f] [f f t] [t t t]
15:52	Chiron_	right?
15:52	clojurebot	flatten \|is\| rarely the right answer. What if your "base type" is a list
16:05	TimMc	clojurebot: You're terrible.
16:05	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:06	mhanson	clojurebot: help
16:06	ohpauleez	clojurebot: What he's saying is that you're bad at your job
16:06	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
16:06	clojurebot	c'est bon!
16:09	llasram	Is June 18th International Bot Non Sequitur Day or something?
16:10	S11001001	(inc clojurebot)
16:10	lazybot	⇒ 10
16:10	arrdem	wat
16:10	arrdem	(type clojurebot)
16:11	amalloy	(+ 3 3)
16:11	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
16:11	mattmoss	(println clojurebot)
16:11	arrdem	ooh this'll be good
16:14	mhanson	Why are there two bots?
16:14	arrdem	on topic: any ideas how map can pass two arguments to an fn? I'm (map)ing over a list of strings and I'm getting an arity exception of two args to an fn which takes one.
16:14	S11001001	arrdem: give map another arg
16:14	S11001001	and it'll give the fn another arg
16:15	_ulises	arrdem: care to paste the offending code?
16:15	llasram	,(map #(vector %1 %2) (range 5) (range 5 10))
16:15	clojurebot	([0 5] [1 6] [2 7] [3 8] [4 9])
16:15	arrdem	github.com/rdmckenzie/Doubletake/blob/master/src/doubletake/java/spec/core.clj
16:15	raek	,(map vector (range 5) (range 5 10))
16:15	clojurebot	([0 5] [1 6] [2 7] [3 8] [4 9])
16:16	arrdem	the offending defn is on line 136
16:16	llasram	raek: Yeah, I was just explicitly calling out the arguments for pedagogical effect
16:24	S11001001	woe is this for, arrdem: apply (fn [x] ["alt" x])
16:26	arrdem	S11001001: it's as close to code generation for the fnparse library as I've been able to come
16:26	arrdem	S11001001: what this entire file does is do dependency resolution (where possible) and then generate what is almost valid clojure that I can complete by hand
16:27	S11001001	no, I'm saying that doesn't make sense
16:27	S11001001	,(doc apply)
16:28	clojurebot	"([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d ...]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."
16:28	arrdem	derp. so I could just be concat-ing
16:30	S11001001	also
16:30	S11001001	,(doc concat)
16:30	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs]); Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls."
16:31	S11001001	more like mappend interjection than mconcat
16:31	arrdem	correction: (concat ["alt"] (map....))
16:31	arrdem	,(doc mappend)
16:31	clojurebot	Huh?
16:31	S11001001	if you want a lazy seq instead of a vector
16:32	S11001001	oh, I was speaking haskell
16:32	arrdem	ok.
16:32	S11001001	probably what you really want is ["alt" (map ...)]
16:32	aaelony	What's the best way to debug Enlive. For example, what (h/html-content "blah") becomes?
16:32	arrdem	S11001001: also thanks, that was in fact the bug somehow. (e) was lying to me.
16:34	muhoo	i find it harder and harder to keep different languages straight in my head. i was fixing something yesterday that wasn't clojure, and put the ( before the function name.
16:34	S11001001	type errors in lazy seqs get delayed until they're needed, so the backtrace has to be treated as a potential candidate list, rather than listing the actual location as the innermost or outermost frame you own
16:34	S11001001	it is probably allowed :)
16:35	arrdem	muhoo: lol. I swear my next project is going to be a REPL which figures out what language I'm typing before trying to eval..
16:35	arrdem	S11001001: that makes sense. thanks again.
16:36	technoma`	the commas get me every time
16:38	aaelony	aha, render is what i needed!!
16:38	jtoy	clojure doesn't have the means to parse this? "Mon Jan 31 09:23:21 +0000 2011" clj-time doesn't seem to work
16:39	hiredman	~google java date parsing
16:39	clojurebot	First, out of 486000 results is:
16:39	clojurebot	SimpleDateFormat (Java 2 Platform SE v1.4.2)
16:39	clojurebot	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/text/SimpleDateFormat.html
16:39	jtoy	hiredman: the problem is that I can't get Jan to be parsed
16:40	hiredman	jtoy: I believe in you, read the docs
16:40	jtoy	haha
16:40	jtoy	thx
16:43	jtoy	hiredman: the doc is wrong, it says M Month in year Month ;July; Jul; 07 but it doesn't actually work
16:45	amalloy	the doc is not wrong
16:45	amalloy	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/text/SimpleDateFormat.html#month
16:54	jtoy	(import '(java.text SimpleDateFormat)) ; (SimpleDateFormat. "E M d H:m:s Z y");(def parser (SimpleDateFormat. "E M d H:m:s Z y") ); (. parser parse "Mon Jan 31 09:23:21 +0000 2011") => java.text.ParseException: Unparseable date: "Mon Jan 31 09:23:21 +0000 2011" (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:54	jtoy	what am I doing wrong here?
16:54	hiredman	not reading the docs
16:56	jtoy	hiredman: which part?
16:56	lypanov	Z
16:56	lypanov	oops no.
16:57	lypanov	jtoy: the examples section is really weird.
16:57	lypanov	maybe you're meant to follow that.
16:58	lypanov	i don't see how if thats the format you're meant to use this lib can possibly work though.
16:59	jtoy	hmmmmm...
17:00	lypanov	like seriously, how f'n arbitrary is "MMMMM"?
17:00	Wild_Cat	jtoy: (def parser (SimpleDateFormat. "EEE MMM dd HH:mm:ss Z yyyy"))
17:01	lypanov	i don't see the diff Wild_Cat.
17:01	lypanov	the docs say "For parsing, both forms are accepted, independent of the number of pattern letters. "
17:01	Wild_Cat	lypanov: yeah. Looks like the docs are wrong.
17:02	lypanov	so "not reading the docs" was really "not reading the docs badly"?
17:03	Wild_Cat	why is it that no programming language has a sane, working, well-documented date/time parsing lib?
17:03	technoma`	Wild_Cat: because it's inhumanly difficult
17:03	jtoy	ruby's is pretty sane
17:03	lypanov	aye.
17:03	lypanov	rubys rock.
17:03	jtoy	Time.parse("and it f*cking works")
17:04	technoma`	last I checked ruby Time objects had to either be in UTC or in local time
17:04	Wild_Cat	technoma`: well, at the very least I'd like it to parse the ISO format...
17:04	lypanov	technoma`: not when you use rails.
17:06	jtoy	so is the answer that java/clojure doesn't have a library to parse that date?
17:06	S11001001	joda-time
17:06	S11001001	love it
17:06	S11001001	add it to all your projects
17:06	brehaut	clj-time
17:07	brehaut	(which is a thin wrapper around joda)
17:07	Wild_Cat	jtoy: it does. Look at the line I posted.
17:07	Wild_Cat	jtoy: the documentation sucks, but it can be parsed.
17:07	jtoy	Wild_Cat: I tested your line, i couldn't get it to parse
17:08	jtoy	(def parser (SimpleDateFormat. "EEE MMM dd HH:mm:ss Z yyyy")) ; (. parser parse "Mon Jan 31 09:23:21 +0000 2011")
17:08	Wild_Cat	,(.parse (java.text.SimpleDateFormat. "EEE MMM dd HH:mm:ss Z yyyy") "Mon Jan 31 09:23:21 +0000 2011")
17:08	clojurebot	#inst "2011-01-31T09:23:21.000-00:00"
17:08	Wild_Cat	see? it works!
17:08	jtoy	hmm, is it because I'm on the mac jam?
17:08	jtoy	jvm
17:08	Wild_Cat	jtoy: I am on a Mac JVM too.
17:09	Wild_Cat	(1.6.0_33)
17:09	jtoy	Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_31-b04-415-11M3635)
17:10	Raynes	Works for me on a mac jvm too.
17:10	Raynes	In fact, same jvm as you, jtoy
17:10	S11001001	what is "I couldn't get it to", jtoy?
17:10	jtoy	(.parse (java.text.SimpleDateFormat. "EEE MMM dd HH:mm:ss Z yyyy") "Mon Jan 31 09:23:21 +0000 2011")
17:10	jtoy	java.text.ParseException: Unparseable date: "Mon Jan 31 09:23:21 +0000 2011" (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:11	Raynes	Perhaps if you live in a black hole just outside of the milky way...
17:11	Wild_Cat	weird
17:12	S11001001	locale
17:12	Wild_Cat	ah, good point. jtoy: try removing the "Mon"?
17:13	jtoy	removing Mon didnt work
17:13	lypanov	start minimal and build it up then.
17:13	jtoy	ok, it should work though, ill test on my server instead
17:13	jtoy	i really hate programming
17:14	lypanov	whats your locale look like?
17:14	technoma`	you can't blame time formats on computers; those are humans' fault 100%
17:14	lypanov	technoma`++
17:14	Wild_Cat	jtoy: if you can though, try supplying dates in YYYY-MM-DDTHH:mm:ssZZZZ format, with nothing language-specific
17:14	Wild_Cat	(in particular, avoid all non-numeric chars)
17:15	lypanov	"default locale" whatever the hell that means.
17:15	arrdem	lypanov: your c_locale?
17:15	Wild_Cat	lypanov: nobody knows what it means >.<
17:16	lypanov	arrdem: i'd like to hope so but honestly i don't trust java to do the right thing.
17:16	arrdem	*actually. Java source is UTF8 through and through so... maybe not?
17:16	lypanov	encoding != locale.
17:17	technoma`	it's UTF-16
17:17	technoma`	and even that's just internal
17:17	technoma`	most macs default to an archaic MacRoman encoding
17:17	Wild_Cat	technoma`: no, source file encoding is UTF-8. Internal string encoding is butchered up UTF-16.
17:18	lypanov	aye. bugs the crap out of me.
17:18	Wild_Cat	(although I don't remember how butchered up it is exactly0
17:18	lypanov	i'm sure they have 8bit strings in the jit.
17:18	lypanov	even js engines use 8bit strings now.
17:19	technoma`	JS engines don't have nearly the legacy baggage of the JVM
17:19	jtoy	it works fine on my server, not sure why not on my mac
17:19	jtoy	so ill just leave it at that, i still hate programming though
17:19	lypanov	i love it.
17:19	lypanov	i just hate people. all of them.
17:19	jtoy	haha
17:19	technoma`	especially people who observe daylight savings
17:19	technoma`	those are the worst kind of people
17:19	mattmoss	grrrr
17:20	lypanov	that they observe it i don't mind.
17:20	jcromartie	technoma`: hey that was my government's decision
17:20	lypanov	that they change their f'n mindns… that i do.
17:20	technoma`	jcromartie: government's authority stems from the consent of the governed.
17:20	borkdude	this is a nice website though: http://everytimezone.com/
17:20	technoma`	rise up!
17:20	lypanov	RISE UP!
17:20	technoma`	throw off your shackles
17:20	arrdem	.... #clojure is inciting revolution now?
17:20	lypanov	on that topic (completely off topic) anyone watching continuum?
17:21	jcromartie	ooh that is nice
17:21	Wild_Cat	jtoy: my guess is that your Mac isn't using English as its primary UI language.
17:21	lypanov	ditto.
17:21	jtoy	Wild_Cat: yes, its in chinese
17:21	technoma`	borkdude: .nl is #3 in terms of visitors to http://leiningen.org; you must be doing a great job spreading the word. =)
17:22	lypanov	jtoy: type Mon right then! :)
17:22	Raynes	lypanov: Goodness no. I've had enough with timp jumping and stuff with Fringe and Quantum Leap.
17:22	borkdude	technoma` I press f5 all day
17:22	Wild_Cat	jtoy: well, there you have it. SimpleDateFormat will attempt to parse dates using your system's language, and neither "Monday" nor "January" is valid Chinese.
17:22	lypanov	Raynes: other than the flashbacks there is not much time jumping.
17:22	Wild_Cat	(which is why I recommended you stick to purely numeric dates)
17:22	lypanov	Raynes: and fringe is on a whoooole different level. as in, not just 4th dim.
17:23	S11001001	or always specify which locale you mean
17:23	lypanov	Raynes: its actually fun.
17:23	Wild_Cat	lypanov: what is Continuum?
17:23	technoma`	jtoy: also consider developing on a virtual machine that matches your production setup
17:23	borkdude	technoma` kidding, well 27 students used it, but I don't know if that would explain it all ;)
17:23	technoma`	jtoy: developing on OS X opens you up to all kinds of subtle incompatibilities
17:23	lypanov	us tv series. i'm enjoying it but i'd like someone to explain wtf is going on with the whole backstory.
17:23	jtoy	Wild_Cat: yeah, those dates come from a 3rd party, but i use numbers internally
17:23	aperiodic	++ to using a dev VM
17:23	lypanov	as in, i am supporting the bad guys…
17:23	aperiodic	saves so many headaches
17:23	lypanov	death to mac.
17:24	jtoy	i am going to program with a vm
17:24	mattmoss	death to mac (sent from my iMacBookPro)
17:24	technoma`	been meaning to try out vmfest as a vagrant alternative; anyone know how it stacks up?
17:24	lypanov	technoma`: it rules.
17:25	Wild_Cat	VMs suck up memory. Tons of it.
17:25	lypanov	chef blows massive sweaty donkey balls.
17:25	lypanov	buy more.
17:25	jtoy	i am planning to use a vm, how do you guys share the folders between OSes though
17:25	technoma`	oh gosh don't I know it
17:25	jtoy	virtualbox
17:25	technoma`	re chef
17:25	Raynes	I tried using a VM. If I had a mac that was powerful enough to run OS X, I might consider it again.
17:25	borkdude	jtoy what machine do you have now?
17:25	jtoy	macbookair with 4 gb of ram
17:26	tbatchelli	jtoy: with vmfest you can share local folders amongst VMs
17:26	borkdude	jtoy I used VirtualBox but I switched to Parallels, I'm really happy with it
17:26	technoma`	vbox isn't the zippiest on I/O, but it has a killer API for automation
17:26	borkdude	jtoy it's really easy to share folders with it
17:26	lypanov	i don't share files.
17:26	lypanov	why would you need that?
17:27	lypanov	Raynes: i'm 99% sure that i'm gonna ditch osx on my iMac anyway. tired of it.
17:27	lypanov	Lion is freaking awful.
17:27	jtoy	lypanov: so i can use a mac editor and test in the vm
17:27	lypanov	jtoy: ah, i use vim.
17:27	lypanov	anything less than vim is the suck.
17:27	jtoy	lypanov: me too, macvim
17:27	technoma`	yeah, shared dirs between the VM and the host feels a bit like an antipattern
17:28	lypanov	jtoy: from my experience doing it in term is better overall.
17:28	lypanov	macvim blows anyway.
17:28	borkdude	jtoy http://www.mupromo.com/ <- Parallels for real cheap
17:28	lypanov	virtualbox.org. vbox for real cheap.
17:28	lypanov	:P
17:29	lypanov	jtoy: are you on lion?
17:29	jtoy	yes
17:29	borkdude	lypanov I used virtualbox, but being able to keep pressing Cmd-c instead of ctrl-c without configuring anything is really worth the money to me :P
17:29	lypanov	jtoy: if not then yeah, term.app blows so then iterm2.
17:29	lypanov	borkdude: 4 win?
17:30	jtoy	In short, MacVim is a more feature-rich, more Mac-integrated version, while vim-cocoa follows a simpler, more lightweight and faster approach.
17:30	lypanov	parallels/vmware are far better for win.
17:30	jtoy	never heard of it anyway
17:30	borkdude	lypanov windows vm in osx yes
17:30	lypanov	but vbox is fine for linux vm.
17:30	lypanov	jtoy: yes. you're right.
17:30	lypanov	screw more mac integrated though. :P
17:31	lypanov	brehaut: unless you actually know vim.
17:31	nDuff	lypanov++
17:31	borkdude	also virtualbox only recently made it possible to expand existing virtual disk images, that was really crazy
17:32	technoma`	huh; I've been doing that for ages
17:32	borkdude	technoma` really? how
17:32	technoma`	it just expands on-demand
17:32	nDuff	convert to raw, dd onto the end, convert back
17:32	nDuff	technoma`: only if you made the base size large enough; I presume borkdude is referring to the case where one didn't.
17:33	borkdude	nDuff right
17:33	SrPx	Anyone here who logs the chan, could you send me today's log please?
17:33	lypanov	i use pallet.
17:33	nDuff	SrPx: it's googlable.
17:33	lypanov	so when i want it bigger i change the config and rebuild.
17:33	technoma`	nDuff: sure, but since it expands on demand why would you ever make the base size something other than absurdly huge?
17:33	lypanov	i can't imagine having to manually maintain a vm image.
17:33	lypanov	it'd be just as bad as having my mac be my dev env again.
17:34	nDuff	technoma`: Not wasting space (and fsck time) on extra inodes and other metadata?
17:34	lypanov	whole point is reproducibility and transparency.
17:34	borkdude	http://www.webupd8.org/2011/02/how-to-easily-resize-virtualbox-40-hard.html
17:34	borkdude	technoma` I just wanted to be sure that my VMs don't took up more than X space
17:35	borkdude	did not take
17:35	nDuff	nod -- the error conditions when they need to expand but don't have the physical space available are more corruption-inducing than merely being out-of-space
17:35	nDuff	so that's a valid concern too.
17:35	technoma`	hm; I guess I've just been lucky
17:36	cshell_w	does anyone know where clojure conj 2012 is going to be held?
17:36	SrPx	hmm
17:36	SrPx	nDuff: thanks
17:37	borkdude	I also like the fact that Parallels just stuffs the virtual machine definition and disk into one "thing"
17:37	borkdude	I can just copy the thing if I want another virtual machine, or make a template out of it, etc
17:37	clojurebot	my lisp machine is the jvm
17:37	lypanov	for win using vbox is silly.
17:37	lypanov	but while i'm on mac and vmware / parallels have no support for e.g. vmfest.
17:37	lypanov	i don't care for them.
17:38	technoma`	yeah, automation wins every time
17:38	nDuff	There's automation available for VMware
17:38	lypanov	not for mac.
17:38	nDuff	Ahh.
17:38	borkdude	lypanov I don't have that many VMs, so not an issue for me I guess
17:38	lypanov	technoma`: lets put pallet this way, i replaced my entire vagrant/chef infrastructure within days. to upgrade to chef 10.0 would have taken longer.
17:38	technoma`	hah; nice
17:38	lypanov	borkdude: somedays i run 8+.
17:39	technoma`	I have a sneaking suspicion chef's client-server architecture is designed specifically in order to make it so they can sell subscriptions
17:39	lypanov	its just crap.
17:39	lypanov	complicated crap.
17:39	lypanov	my pallet code is completely readable and tiny in comparison.
17:40	lypanov	cp -ax'ing recipes is not my idea of reusability for the year 2012.
17:40	nDuff	There _are_ aspects to Chef that are more complex than some other systems, but those complexities are there to add features that aren't necessarily available elsewhere.
17:40	SrPx	hmm thanks you guys for the answers you gave some hours ago ( :
17:40	lypanov	nDuff: pallet can do everything and more.
17:40	lypanov	chef is lacking huge amounts of things i can do with pallet due to its embeddable nature.
17:40	SrPx	nDuff: are there languages more productive than clojure ?
17:40	nDuff	lypanov: when I last looked at it, admittedly a bit over a year ago, pallet was not even _remotely_ close to feature-competitive.
17:40	lypanov	out of the box no.
17:41	lypanov	but if you can actually code, chef is a joke.
17:41	lypanov	and feature checks lists always put the worst at the top.
17:42	nDuff	lypanov: I'd have to actually see a large-scale, complicated environment being maintained with pallet in practice before I could be sold.
17:42	technoma`	chef is a great example of making things that should be orthogonal tightly coupled
17:42	lypanov	depends on what you mean by "see" nDuff
17:42	nDuff	lypanov: ...and to be clear, when I say "in practice", I mean real-world, ie. deploying proprietary "solutions" that don't allow systems to be nuked-and-paved but force incremental maintenance.
17:43	lypanov	no clue. never worked on a system that was so badly designed that i couldn't ditch half of it at a days notice.
17:43	lypanov	(i.e., never worked in a large company built on legacy, would never wish to)
17:44	lypanov	technoma`++
17:44	nDuff	lypanov: I very, very much appreciate wanting to stay in a greenfield environment, but _someone_ has to have a toolchain that's up to managing the legacy applications.
17:45	lypanov	i have to be honest i don't think chef is.
17:45	nDuff	technoma`: I'm not sure it's as much so as you may think. The services offered by the Chef server are actually well-defined and limited; it's the client side that's... err... more of a mess.
17:45	lypanov	puppet maybe sure.
17:45	lypanov	but chef is insanely limited.
17:45	nDuff	snerk.
17:45	lypanov	anyway i do agree that i don't think its malicious on ill intended on the chef guys part.
17:45	nDuff	lypanov: I was half of the two-man team managing MessageOne's operations -- multiple multi-thousand-machine DCs worldwide -- on Puppet.
17:45	lypanov	they are nice guys that want to do a good job.
17:45	nDuff	lypanov: Puppet is utter, utter, UTTER crap.-
17:45	lypanov	nDuff: i know. but it works.
17:45	nDuff	...now, mind you, the other half of that team is now at Puppet Labs
17:45	lypanov	haha.
17:46	nDuff	...so maybe we came away with somewhat different impressions...
17:46	nDuff	...but I moved to Chef for my next gig, and came away far happier.
17:46	lypanov	yeah chef is far better.
17:46	lypanov	but its not the best imo.
17:46	lypanov	seen the company list for pallet?
17:46	lypanov	they have some impressive clients.
17:46	technoma`	inventing your own language and dependency mechanisms inside an existing language limits the damage you can do vs designing a language from scratch =)
17:47	lypanov	technoma`: yes.
17:47	nDuff	...but I spent enough time investigating Pallet to at least get a few patches in, and my impression at the time was that it simply didn't have the facilities I needed.
17:47	lypanov	nDuff: no the base system is small and limited.
17:47	lypanov	but i find that my dev speed with it is far better than chef.
17:48	aperiodic	cshell_w: i seem to recall hearing New York, which is consistent with the image on clojure-conj.org, but don't quote me
17:48	lypanov	maybe its just because i actually got into clojure via pallet.
17:49	seancorfield	aperiodic: the NYC October 1st thing is SkillsMatter; the conj is in November (and will be in Raleigh/Durham as far as I know?)
17:50	aperiodic	seancorfield: I assumed so as well, but I seem to recall lynaghk telling me it was in NYC.
17:50	aperiodic	cshell_w: the real answer is "wait until they announce it"
17:51	seancorfield	that would be more consistent with the image on the web site, true... so i might finally get to go to NYC :)
17:51	aperiodic	I don't know where lynaghk was getting his info, though. it's probably all hearsay at this point.
17:52	lynaghk`	aperiodic: dude, I know you live in portland but...look at that cityscape: http://clojure-conj.org/
17:52	hugod	nDuff: I would be interested in hearing what you were missing from pallet, if you have some time to pass by #pallet
17:52	lynaghk`	aperiodic: that look like raleigh to you? =P
17:54	aperiodic	lynaghk`: i can, in fact, recognize NYC, i was just pointing out that nothing's official at this point.
17:55	Raynes	I didn't see any dead hookers, so I'm unconvinced.
17:55	lynaghk`	aperiodic: there's also a nyc grid coordinate reader literal in JIRA
17:55	cshell_w	aperiodic: thanks, it did look like NYC but I wasn't sure
17:56	cshell_w	any idea on dates? I have to be in nyc for thanksgiving
17:56	aperiodic	lynaghk`: grid coordinate reader literal?
17:56	technoma`	lynaghk`: sign me up
17:57	technoma`	wait aren't NYC blocks already labeled by UUID? so you should get that for free.
17:59	lynaghk`	technoma`: the literal is useful when you want to query .asOf("New Amsterdam")
18:00	dmiles_afk	http://pastebin.com/ysN0PAz3 - here is teh C# syntax and the prolog Syntx.. what "should" the Clojure syntax be?
18:00	dmiles_afk	i suppose this is a Clojure-CLR question
18:45	emezeske	l
18:46	mwillhite	anyone run into this before? Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: setRequestHeaderSize for class org.mortbay.jetty.bio.SocketConnector
18:48	bbloom	mwillhite: much more information needed
18:48	mwillhite	ha
18:48	mwillhite	np
18:50	bbloom	mwillhite: what libraries are you using? what are you trying to do? do you have a stack trace? do you have a reliable repro case? a minimal one?
19:03	mwillhite	no worries, I was just tossing it out there, its a complicated app but we got it figured out…it was a ring dependency conflict
19:03	mwillhite	thanks thos
19:03	mwillhite	*though
19:05	dmiles_afk	any anwers to my question?
19:06	dmiles_afk	http://pastebin.com/ysN0PAz3 - here is teh C# syntax and the prolog Syntx.. what "should" the Clojure syntax be? (i suppose this is a Clojure-CLR question)
19:07	hiredman	dmiles_afk: I guess I don't understand the context
19:09	dmiles_afk	this code idiom needs to be used several 100 times.. a codebock that looks like that C#... new ResetEvent+make a lambda + register it + call something + wait fo the evetn to finish + unregister the event + return some value
19:09	hiredman	I would be more inclined towards the prolog style if I was writing a generate search/query interface, something more method/fn call like if it wasn't a search, but just a quick lookup
19:10	hiredman	if you are only ever expect one answer, and a just getting via the "primary key" then method/fn like, if it is a search with possible multiple results, prolog
19:11	dmiles_afk	in this cases of these functions yes only one answer is ever needed
19:12	dmiles_afk	for the prolog version i hade to create helper functions like cli_new_event_waiter/cli)block_unbtil_event
19:13	dmiles_afk	ok so the clojure-clr version probly will want the same two functions
19:14	dmiles_afk	oh so that anonomous function .. (cli-block-until-event WaitOn 10000 #'(lambda (Evt) (equals (jcall "QueryID" Evt) QID)))
19:15	dmiles_afk	would be like that that?
19:15	dmiles_afk	minus the CL jcall of course :)
19:16	hiredman	annd clojure doesn't have a special form "lambda"
19:16	dmiles_afk	i am very clojure newbie.. but it does have this sort of lambda?
19:16	hiredman	it is fn
19:16	hiredman	or #()
19:16	hiredman	#' means something entirely different in clojure
19:16	nDuff	dmiles_afk: ...though what you look for smells a lot like reify
19:17	dmiles_afk	so be like? (cli-block-until-event WaitOn 10000 #(fn (Evt) (= (QueryID Evt) QID)))
19:17	hiredman	no
19:18	hiredman	#() is a synonym for (fn [] ())
19:18	hiredman	so #(fn ...) is almost never what you want
19:18	hiredman	well
19:18	hiredman	#(...) is a synonym for (fn [] (...))
19:19	dmiles_afk	(cli-block-until-event WaitOn 10000 #([Evt] (= (.QueryID Evt) QID)))
19:19	hiredman	arglists in clojure are specified using vectors
19:19	hiredman	nah
19:20	hiredman	at this point I will refer you to the number of fine clojure books available on amazon, and the detailed docs on clojure.org
19:20	dmiles_afk	i see though.. you answered my main question
19:21	dmiles_afk	is that such a code idiom might be fin the prolog way rather than constructing a macro to relfect the C3 structure
19:22	dmiles_afk	is that such a code idiom might be fine the prolog way rather than constructing a macro to relfect the C# structure
19:23	dmiles_afk	i had worjdered if that code was so comman .. creating a ResetEVent that clojure didnt have already someting in the library for this
19:25	dmiles_afk	sort of the way C# uses "using"
19:27	nDuff	dmiles_afk: Asking questions in such a way that folks need to know C# to answer them is going to substantially reduce the number of answers you get here; most of us are JVM-based.
19:30	devn	(or not JVM-based)
19:31	devn	what i mean is: Java is not a pre-requisite per se, nor is any other language. It's best to describe what you're interested in doing.
19:31	devn	(without resorting to "How do I write this C code in Clojure?")
19:32	nDuff	devn: ...well, the questions coming from dmiles seem fairly specific to CLR interop
19:32	dmiles_afk	java doesnt have the registration of event handlers.. so a bit awkward portign it to java.. but can be done i think
19:34	nDuff	dmiles_afk: Are you asking how similar code would be implemented using Clojure idioms on both sides, ie. where the API you're interacting with is natively Clojuresque?
19:34	dmiles_afk	yes nDuff, good paraphrase
19:35	dmiles_afk	clojure would end up creating (proxy [s Evt] ...) that would hold some fn
19:35	dmiles_afk	i guess really wonderign if a macro is what a user would want to type to do that code
19:36	dmiles_afk	nderign if a macro is what a user might feel most comforttable when they want to call that code
19:36	dmiles_afk	sorry.. "when they want to impelment that"
19:37	dmiles_afk	then when i expand their macro.. what closureqeness should i be doing
19:37	frozenlock	I'm doing a function of the form (with-something &body). I would like to provide some keywords argument, such as with {:keys [arg1 arg2]}. Is their a way to combine the two? &body and &{:keys}
19:38	dmiles_afk	when a personon interates a list.. they ussualyl get a free hidden iterator out of clojure.. i was hoping i could get a free hidden resetEvent object
19:39	dmiles_afk	oh in JVM terms a hidding object.wait() object.notify()
19:39	dmiles_afk	hiddem object.wait() object.notify()
19:50	dmiles_afk	ok.. my question has been answered :) the answer i's i do a wait/notify inside a macro that inserts 4 functions, Setup,testEvent,sendRequest,AfterQuest is recived
21:55	brehaut	is it possible to get lein to only AOT compile when building a jar/uberjar rather than for the repl?
22:02	antares_	brehaut: rather than the repl?
22:03	brehaut	antares_: i have a project that i uberjar for deployment, the only AOT stuff is to get a main entrypoint. it doesnt need to be AOT'd when teh repl is launched
22:04	antares_	brehaut: I am afraid main ns will always be AOT compiled, even with a separate profile (lein2)
22:04	brehaut	thats what i thought :(
22:04	brehaut	oh well
22:04	antares_	brehaut: you can keep the repl open, why restart it all the time?
22:05	SrPx	is clojure better than cl in general? ;s
22:05	SrPx	oh what a bad question
22:05	SrPx	I mean,
22:05	brehaut	antares_: its not a problem for me, its a project with non-clojure people getting started, and explaining the timeout with nrepl as it compiles the entry point is proving to be a real headache
22:05	SrPx	is clojure kind of updated taking in account cl and schemes mistakes, or something?
22:06	antares_	brehaut: ah
22:06	brehaut	antares_: my current solution is to get them to run a lein compile first
22:06	antares_	SrPx: Clojure was designed with some problems in CL in mind, yes
22:06	antares_	brehaut: yes, that's probably the best solution right now
22:07	dnolen	SrPx: it's a Lisp with modern affordances yes. CL is not evolving as a language, and there's lots of pressure to keep Scheme very miminal.
22:07	SrPx	antares_: can ou name some?
22:08	SrPx	dnolen: are there even newer lisps?
22:08	dnolen	SrPx: people are creating new lisps all the time - the beauty of Lisp is that's not a herculaen task.
22:08	antares_	SrPx: I'd name immutable data structures, solid concurrency/time model, syntax that does not use lists for everything (see let forms or defn, for example)
22:09	antares_	SrPx: Clojure influenced at least 1 Lisp I know of, Joxa
22:09	antares_	and some non-Lisps, too (like Elixir)
22:09	SrPx	I want to get into it but I'm not sure how... many implementations, not sure if I even get the need for macros
22:09	SrPx	antares_: hmm
22:11	dnolen	SrPx: Lisps generally implements themselves in terms of macros over primitive forms
22:11	antares_	and there are multimethod implementations in JavaScript and so on, inspired by Clojure (or even directly ported)
22:13	SrPx	antares_: sorry what?
22:13	SrPx	(googling that)
22:13	antares_	SrPx: if you want to get into a new language, just start building something in it. In a few months you will have some initial feeling that is beyond "I like/dislike the syntax". Clojure Programming from O'Reilly is the book I recommend for beginners.
22:13	dnolen	SrPx: what languages are you familiar with?
22:13	antares_	SrPx: people port good features from clojure to JS, that's the point
22:13	antares_	some can be ported
22:13	antares_	some are relatively unique to lisps
22:14	adu	antares_: my favorites are (1) rot13 (2) json (3) xml (4) scheme, usually in that order
22:14	adu	also, webapps in languages prone to that sort of thing
22:15	antares_	adu: sorry?
22:15	adu	"things to build in a new language"
22:15	antares_	ahhh
22:15	SrPx	dnolen: python c++ lua and javascript , all very similar
22:15	antares_	yes, json parser and generator is a good start
22:15	SrPx	(except c++)
22:15	antares_	but I think to get the real feel you need to build a little service or a Web app
22:16	SrPx	antares_: i see
22:16	adu	it's easier to build a webapp if you already have an xml serialization :)
22:17	dnolen	SrPx: Clojure is pretty different from all of those.
22:17	SrPx	I know
22:17	SrPx	lisps are pretty different from anything non - lisp, I guess
22:17	dnolen	SrPx: so you'll have some fun ahead of you if you stick with it.
22:17	antares_	I'd say there are similarities between python/Clojure and JS/Clojure, although immutable data structures will be novel
22:18	adu	how similar is clojure and racket?
22:19	antares_	adu: I am barely familiar with racket but it 1) Has mutable data structures, 2) Has no interop with another language, 3) Does not have the same concurrency model. Otherwise lisps are largely similar.
22:19	adu	racket has immutable pairs...
22:19	adu	(which is novel for a scheme)
22:19	antares_	that's my opinion, I am only really familiar with Emacs Lisp and Clojure
22:20	SrPx	immutable data structures?
22:20	antares_	adu: yes but by default lists and maps (dictionaries) are mutable, right?
22:20	SrPx	antares_: I thought you said they removed those
22:20	SrPx	what they are
22:20	antares_	SrPx: who removed what?
22:20	adu	antares_: lists are immutable by default in racket (hence novel)
22:21	antares_	SrPx: if you have a vector of [1 2] and want to ad something, you do not modify the same data structure. Instead, you get back a new vector (but the implementation is not naive copying, so it is pretty time and space efficient)
22:21	adu	hashmaps (iirc) are mutable
22:21	SrPx	someone said an improvement from cl to clojure was not having those?
22:21	antares_	adu: aha. Good to know.
22:21	SrPx	antares_: like haskell?
22:21	antares_	SrPx: the opposite
22:22	antares_	yes
22:22	adu	antares_: racket vectors are mutable tho
22:22	SrPx	antares_: why is this useful
22:22	antares_	SrPx: it makes many classes of problems with concurrency completely go away
22:22	adu	antares_: I've noticed that with Haskell
22:22	antares_	you never have to worry "does this function modify what I pass to it", like you have in C++ all the time
22:23	SrPx	antares_: but if this is a default behavior will not it be very hard to implement things that require mutability, like, for example, a game character with position, hp, exp and so on?
22:23	antares_	which makes for easier testability and maintainability
22:23	adu	I probably have more experience with Haskell than Scheme
22:24	antares_	SrPx: it's a typical FP misconception that things "cannot be mutated"
22:24	antares_	SrPx: they can, but in a different way
22:24	SrPx	antares_: which way?
22:24	antares_	SrPx: you can add things to lists, the thing is, you do not modify the original data structure
22:25	SrPx	antares_: the character hp case?
22:25	antares_	SrPx: read a Clojure book, it explains things much better than I can on IRC :)
22:25	antares_	SrPx: hp case?
22:25	SrPx	antares_: sure, thanks !
22:25	SrPx	eh..
22:26	SrPx	like a character with a HP that can go up or down. normally it would be a hashtable with a hp key
22:26	antares_	SrPx: there is also a talk by Clojure creator about Clojure's approach to state/mutation/identity, it is not easy to understand the first time but it usually seriously changes perspective for developers, especially those who have worked with concurrency a lot
22:26	antares_	if you want I can find a link
22:27	SrPx	not yet, thank you!
22:27	SrPx	still trying to get the basics
22:27	dnolen	,(update-in {:hp 100} [:hp] #(- % 10))
22:27	clojurebot	{:hp 90}
22:27	antares_	SrPx: basically, you can have atomic references in Clojure (one approach) so if you want to mutate something that is a hash map, you do it in a way that looks like you are mutating an existing thing but in reality a new data structure is created and then atomic reference is switched
22:27	dnolen	SrPx: no mutation occurred ^
22:28	antares_	SrPx: the key to understanding is that identity ("a list of todos") and state ("current items on the list") are separate in Clojure
22:28	antares_	in most languages, they are one thing and it means you have a whole group of issues and features to solve them
22:29	SrPx	,(update-in {:hp 100 :mana 50} [:hp] #(+ % 10))
22:29	clojurebot	{:mana 50, :hp 110}
22:29	SrPx	,(update-in {:hp 100 :mana 50} [:hp] #(+ % :mana))
22:29	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
22:29	SrPx	heh
22:29	antares_	ah, I am getting the :hp thing
22:29	antares_	SrPx: basically, in clojure you'd have an identity (character) and a number of states it goes through
22:29	SrPx	antares_: hmm
22:29	antares_	which is how it is in the real/virtual world, right
22:30	antares_	not the same thing that changes "in place"
22:30	antares_	in moment A this identity will point to {:hp 100}
22:30	antares_	after a hit, it wil point to a different state, {:hp 80}
22:30	antares_	but the original state is not modified.
22:30	SrPx	antares_: just wondering, wont this be a big punch on performance?
22:31	SrPx	antares_: I imagine if you have to copy an entire 20-keys hash for each position update which happens serveral times a second for thousand of diferent objects
22:31	antares_	SrPx: a naive "copy everything" approach would but guess what, Google' Guava works that way and Google seems to find it OK to have in their "standard library"
22:31	antares_	SrPx: clojure's approach is not naive
22:31	antares_	data structures are implemented as trees
22:31	antares_	so there is structural sharing going on
22:31	antares_	internally
22:32	SrPx	hmm
22:32	antares_	so a list A = (1 2 3)
22:32	antares_	when added a 0 at the head
22:32	antares_	becomes (0) => (1 2 3) kind of structure
22:32	antares_	where the "tail" is list A
22:32	antares_	and the entire thing is list B
22:33	antares_	there are nice colorful pictures that explain this in various books and blog posts
22:33	antares_	SrPx: are familiar with git?
22:33	antares_	*are you
22:33	antares_	or mercurial
22:33	antares_	actually, no, mercurial is somewhat different
22:34	antares_	SrPx: I think you need to watch http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Value-Identity-State-Rich-Hickey, it is a bit heavy on philosophy in the beginning but there are pictures and examples in the 2nd part
22:37	xeqi	brehaut: you can add :prep-tasks [] to not do javac and compile
22:37	brehaut	xeqi: thanks
22:37	xeqi	but then you'd have to either `lein compile, jar` or use a profile with them back on
22:37	SrPx	calm down o.o
22:38	antares_	SrPx: ehm?
22:38	SrPx	wrong window
22:38	SrPx	antares_: not sure if I'm confortable with this behavior?
22:38	SrPx	have to put a little more thuoght on it
22:38	SrPx	let me check it
22:41	gfredericks	SrPx: mutable data structures are the new GOTO
22:41	antares_	SrPx: Clojure was designed this way by a person with like ~ 20 years of development of complex systems in C++, Java and C#. It is not a nice theory somebody came up at a uni somewhere :) so don't worry, it certainly will take some time to get this but it has plenty of benefits (mostly around concurrency, but not just)
22:42	antares_	SrPx: I'd say, play with basic data structures in the REPL and then try atoms
22:42	antares_	atoms are easy to understand and demonstrate identity/state separation
22:42	SrPx	gfredericks: wow, this is a strong statement
22:42	antares_	the rest will sink in after that
22:43	gfredericks	SrPx: the more I use immutables the more I feel that way
22:43	SrPx	antares_: so on that topic, clojure, when well done, will automatically scale up to additional processor cores?
22:43	antares_	SrPx: in the world wtih 16 cores being the norm (we are not there yet but it no longer feels surreal), I'd say gfredericks is close to being correct
22:43	SrPx	antares_: so one can say clojure, haskell and others are soon to outperform C++ and such?
22:44	dnolen	SrPx: outperform at what? developer happiness?
22:44	gfredericks	GOTOs are quite performant
22:44	SrPx	dnolen: too?
22:44	SrPx	dnolen: but I meant performance
22:44	antares_	SrPx: Clojure, haskell and several other languages will make it much easier to write radically more peformant systems for multicore machines
22:44	SrPx	dnolen: just for curiosity actually, because I am searching developer happiness indeed (:
22:44	gfredericks	but you could still write 1.5x more performant code with 20x more effort
22:45	antares_	SrPx: C++ cpmpilers will probably produce faster for a long time but single threaded performance won't matter as much
22:45	SrPx	I see gfredericks
22:45	antares_	and it is not really about just crazy performance
22:45	antares_	it is about maintainable software, too
22:45	dnolen	SrPx: C++ is very close to the metal, I imagine you can always write faster code in it than Haskell or Clojure or any other FP lang. Just depends on what you'd rather spend your time on.
22:45	dnolen	SrPx: that said, Haskell & Clojure both take performance very seriously.
22:46	lynaghk`	gfredericks: I'd never thought about it that way re: goto. The issue with goto is "how the hell did I get here?" and with mutable state, "how the hell did this get this way?"
22:46	gfredericks	lynaghk`: :D I think it's mostly the chaos of unnecessary powers
22:47	antares_	SrPx: so, Clojure tries to be "fast enough for the 80% cases, constantly looking for ways to improve on multicore", when it comes to performance. But performance is only part of the story, like I said.
22:47	SrPx	Hmm, okay.
22:47	gfredericks	lynaghk`: the public-attributes issue from OOP is similar
22:47	antares_	as for haskell, I am not familiar with it enough to judge but I've heard from people who use haskell for very performance sensitive things and it is surprisingly close to C
22:47	lynaghk`	gfredericks: unnecessary is a hard thing to pin down. I just spent the last hour putting together slides about why something like Hiccup is nicer than Handlebars because the former uses the same abstractions (i.e., on standard data types) and lets you do whatever you want.
22:48	antares_	but it takes 1/10 of time to develop the same thing in haskell compared to C (again, just anecdotal evidence of some people I know)
22:48	gfredericks	lynaghk`: yeah; I suppose it's the sort of thing that takes decades to notice
22:50	SrPx	antares_: which is probably true
22:51	devn	if you can get designers to use hiccup, I applaud
22:51	lynaghk`	gfredericks: heh. I can understand where the no-logic-in-templates folks are coming from, but in practice I've always found it to be more annoying than helpful. Then again, maybe I'm just not working on big enough apps/teams for it to get useful.
22:51	lynaghk`	In the same way that Ruby folks complain about Java's insane config and factory factories---until they try to build a sufficiently complex app.
22:52	lynaghk`	devn: most of the time I sit down over beers with designers to work out general markup and structure, then they handle 95% CSS
22:53	lynaghk`	devn: I'm not sure if that's something super-specific to the kind of work that we do, though (data visualization)
22:53	brehaut	lynaghk`: i think that with referential transparency, all the so called advantages of logicless templates evaporate unless you really want non-technical people to be doing technical work
22:55	lynaghk`	brehaut: yeah, I think something along the same lines. Referential transparency and immutablity takes away most of the pain of logic-ful templates. My guess is that most of that pain comes from folks who don't have a the distinction in their mind anyway, and start to do crazy stuff in templates just for convenience.
22:56	brehaut	lynaghk`: yup agreed. its hard to put the mutable cat back in the bag
22:56	gfredericks	I like that (transients aside) all of the intentionally mutable stuff in clojure is a reference to a single value
22:57	gfredericks	rather than a composite structure of some kind
22:58	antares_	SrPx: if you have any questions, please ask here, many folks in here would be happy to help
22:58	SrPx	andrewclegg: indeed you are being very helpful, thank you very much!
22:58	SrPx	andrewclegg: meant for antares_ sorry
22:58	gfredericks	(inc andrewclegg) ;; for being helpful
22:58	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:59	lynaghk`	gfredericks: what do you mean? Do you think (swap! ref #(update-in ...)) is an anti-pattern?
22:59	gfredericks	lynaghk`: no; an atom pointing to a map is still a single pointer to an immutable object
23:00	gfredericks	which is much simpler than e.g. an array
23:00	gfredericks	I think mutable data structures are essentially equivalent to something like (atom {:foo (atom 1) :bar (atom 2)})
23:00	gfredericks	which is of course terrible horrible no good very bad
23:01	lynaghk`	gfredericks: The only appeal to me about something like that would be more efficent view updates
23:01	gfredericks	oh that sounds like a fun problem
23:01	devn	lynaghk`: more ownership over the layout makes for a faster design loop IMO
23:01	gfredericks	I've been mulling over how to replace backbone with cljs for a while
23:01	devn	a layout does not live forever
23:02	lynaghk`	Haven't run into a situation where that is absolutely crucial, though. Most apps lately have been using the idea of binding a collection to view items according to a key-fn.
23:02	uvtc	Just learned about `mapcat` and added an example to http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/mapcat that I thought was needed (I don't yet get what the 2nd example there is doing). Please LMK if it's not good.
23:02	lynaghk`	devn: yep, for sure.
23:09	antares_	uvtc: the 2nd is where they split strings?
23:09	xeqi	brehaut: :profiles {:dev {:prep-tasks ~(with-meta [] {:replace true})} will stop javac,compile for most tasks, but allow it for jar/uberjar
23:10	brehaut	xeqi thats great, thanks!
23:10	xeqi	I forgot you could replace earlier
23:10	uvtc	There are 3 examples for mapcat. Mine is the 3rd. Mine consists of three pieces: the part where you see what the `map` is doing, the part where you see a way to get what you want, and the part where you see that mapcat can get you there in style. :)
23:10	uvtc	antares_, ^^
23:10	xeqi	supposedly :prep-tasks ^:replace [] should work, but I couldn't get the metadata to stick
23:11	antares_	uvtc: ah. Then you example is a lot better than the 2nd one.
23:11	uvtc	Great. Thanks, antares_.
23:14	gfredericks	,`C#
23:14	clojurebot	C__27__auto__
23:15	amalloy	lynaghk`: well, (swap! x #(update-in % ...)) is usually a mistake, but only because it should have been written just as (swap! x update-in ...)
23:17	lynaghk`	amalloy: noted, thanks!
23:17	SrPx	wait I still don't get it well, why are macros necessary? functions seems to be everything we need
23:17	dnolen	it always fun to change an atom from a inside a filter operation evil laugh
23:18	dnolen	SrPx: a lot Clojure the language is defined in terms of macros.
23:18	SrPx	but it could be def in term of funcs
23:18	amalloy	SrPx: functions are all you need from a fundamental point of view. macros remove redundant code, and make some things that could technically be done with functions much prettier
23:18	SrPx	amalloy: an example?
23:18	gfredericks	pattern matching
23:18	gfredericks	logic programming
23:19	SrPx	code example, I mean
23:19	amalloy	(let [x 1] x) could be written as ((fn [x] x) 1)
23:19	dnolen	SrPx: show me the functions that can provide destructuring syntax
23:19	kovasb	i don't think the likes of deftype/defrecord could be done with functions
23:19	amalloy	let is (or could be) a macro that lets you write the nicer version on the left instead of the ugly stuff on the right
23:20	uvtc	SrPx: macros let you create new operators/syntax in the language. For example, you can make your own specialized type of `for` loop using macros. You can see which parts of Clojure are macros by using `doc` --- a line in there should tell you if the thing you're asking about is a macro. For example:
23:20	uvtc	,(doc for)
23:20	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs body-expr]); List comprehension. Takes a vector of one or more binding-form/collection-expr pairs, each followed by zero or more modifiers, and yields a lazy sequence of evaluations of expr. Collections are iterated in a nested fashion, rightmost fastest, and nested coll-exprs can refer to bindings created in prior binding-forms. Supported modifiers are: :let [binding-form expr ...], ...
23:20	uvtc	&(doc for)
23:20	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([seq-exprs body-expr]); List comprehension. Takes a vector of one or more binding-form/collection-expr pairs, each followed by zero or more modifiers, and yields a lazy sequence of evaluations of expr. Collections are iterated in a nested fashion, rightm... https://www.refheap.com/paste/3223
23:20	SrPx	amalloy: wow I actually found the right one surprisingly englightening for other reason
23:20	gfredericks	SrPx: enlightening != fun to read
23:20	uvtc	There --- lazybot says it's indeed a macro, right at the beginning.
23:21	dnolen	,(let [{hit-points :hp} {:hp 100 :mana 10}] hit-points)
23:21	clojurebot	100
23:21	dnolen	,(let [{[f & r] :items} {:hp 100 :mana 10 :items '[sword bread]}] [f r])
23:21	clojurebot	[sword (bread)]
23:21	SrPx	gfredericks: didnt say that
23:22	gfredericks	SrPx: yeah I shouldn't have said it
23:22	gfredericks	SrPx: macros also give you compile-time optimizations
23:22	gfredericks	e.g., assert
23:22	gfredericks	er
23:22	antares_	SrPx: a good example of a simple but useful macro is if-let
23:22	gfredericks	that's more an example of something slightly different I guess
23:23	antares_	SrPx: books often use "unless" (the opposite of if) but I find it much less useful (never had the need to write unless, but use if-let all the time)
23:23	gfredericks	antares_: because if-not is shorter :P
23:23	gfredericks	no it isn't
23:23	gfredericks	but it probably uses fewer pixels
23:24	antares_	gfredericks: no, because if-let captures a common "structural" pattern and unless is a matter of taste
23:24	SrPx	dnolen: what did you do there with the [f & r] thing
23:24	gfredericks	antares_: my comment was less stupid back when if-not was shorter
23:24	dnolen	SrPx: destructured the head and the tail of a sequential data structure '[sword bread]
23:24	uvtc	gfredericks: hehehe ("Your language is ok, but too fast and loose with it's pixel usage...")
23:25	dnolen	,(first '[sword bread])
23:25	clojurebot	sword
23:25	dnolen	,(rest '[sword bread])
23:25	clojurebot	(bread)
23:25	antares_	SrPx: [f & r] destructures a value that is a collection. f gets the first element value, r becomes the "rest".
23:25	gfredericks	uvtc: dashes are cheaper than underscores
23:25	dnolen	,(let [[first-thing & rest-of-it] '[sword bread]] [first-thing rest-of-it])
23:25	clojurebot	[sword (bread)]
23:26	SrPx	,(let [{[f & r] :items} {:hp 100 :mana 10 :items '[sword bread apple hammer]}] [f r])
23:26	clojurebot	[sword (bread apple hammer)]
23:26	SrPx	okay
23:27	gfredericks	"why does clojure need macros?" kind of turns into "why do languages need features?"
23:27	SrPx	,(let [{[x & y] :items} {:hp 100 :mana 10 :items '[sword bread apple hammer]}] [x y y])
23:27	clojurebot	[sword (bread apple hammer) (bread apple hammer)]
23:27	dnolen	SrPx: that actually expands out into function calls of course - but the sugar avoids the tedium. major selling of point of macros.
23:28	dnolen	SrPx: most languages you would need to extend the compiler ... ugh.
23:28	SrPx	I don't get that syntax, how do that stuff end up on x / y
23:28	SrPx	dnolen: Hmmm...
23:28	metellus	{[x & y] :items} means you only want :items from the map
23:28	SrPx	I got that, but how? would that happen without the let?
23:29	antares_	SrPx: consider a, b = (1, 2) in Python
23:29	SrPx	({[x] :items} {:items '[a b c]})
23:29	SrPx	,({[x] :items} {:items '[a b c]})
23:29	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
23:29	SrPx	antares_: continue
23:29	antares_	SrPx: let is how you assign locals (local vars)
23:29	SrPx	hmm
23:29	antares_	SrPx: so, a and b gets their values from positions
23:29	dnolen	SrPx: anyplace where you can bind names, destructuring works. let, binding, function arguments, loop/recur, etc.
23:30	antares_	now imagine that everything after (1, 2) would also be tacked on to b
23:30	antares_	this is how it works in the case of (let [[a b] [1 2 3 4 5]] b)
23:31	SrPx	oh I see
23:31	antares_	and this "pattern matching" can be nested
23:31	gfredericks	,(macroexpand-1 '(let [{[x & y] :items} {:hp 100 :mana 10 :items '[sword bread apple
23:31	gfredericks	hammer]}] [x y y]))
23:31	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
23:31	gfredericks	,(macroexpand-1 '(let [{[x & y] :items} {:hp 100 :mana 10 :items '[sword bread apple hammer]}] [x y y]))
23:31	clojurebot	(let* [map__220 {:hp 100, :mana 10, :items (quote [sword bread apple hammer])} map__220 (if (clojure.core/seq? map__220) (clojure.core/apply clojure.core/hash-map map__220) map__220) vec__221 ...] [x y y])
23:31	SrPx	so let's first argument is a array with 2 values, the first one would be the thing to the left, the second one would be the thing to the right, in relation to pythons a,b = 1,2 ?
23:31	SrPx	with that tail stuff added
23:31	SrPx	an array*
23:31	metellus	it can take any even number of values
23:32	metellus	,(let [a 1 b 2])
23:32	clojurebot	nil
23:32	metellus	,(let [a 1 b 2] (+ a b))
23:32	clojurebot	3
23:32	SrPx	,(let [a b] [1 2] a b)
23:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: b in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
23:32	gfredericks	,(let [x [1 2], a (first x), b (rest x)] [a b])
23:32	clojurebot	[1 (2)]
23:32	SrPx	,(let [[a b] [1 2]] a b)
23:32	clojurebot	2
23:32	antares_	SrPx: in Python it would look like a, b = [1, 2, 3, 4] and a would be 1, b would be [2, 3, 4] (just as example, I know this is not valid Python)
23:32	SrPx	,(let [[a b] [1 2]] [a b])
23:32	clojurebot	[1 2]
23:32	SrPx	,(let [[a b] [1 2 3 4]] [a b])
23:32	clojurebot	[1 2]
23:32	SrPx	what!?
23:33	metellus	,(let [[a & b] [1 2 3 4]] [a b])
23:33	clojurebot	[1 (2 3 4)]
23:33	SrPx	oh ok
23:33	antares_	SrPx: you need & if you want the entire tail
23:33	SrPx	but you used a different syntax
23:33	SrPx	[a 1 b 1] vs [[a b] [1 1]]
23:33	metellus	they're different things
23:33	antares_	SrPx: I was trying too hard to stay close to the Python example :)
23:34	SrPx	I see
23:34	antares_	ah, wait
23:34	SrPx	so either way works
23:34	SrPx	what is the prefered?
23:34	antares_	SrPx: this example is for collections like vectors or lists
23:34	antares_	SrPx: you can also destructure maps, this is slightly different
23:34	SrPx	[var val var val var val...] or [[var var var] [val val val]], is that it?
23:34	antares_	and then you can combine the two
23:34	SrPx	õo
23:34	antares_	no, that's nesting (if I understand you correctly)
23:34	gfredericks	SrPx: the one you want is preferred
23:35	antares_	SrPx: imagine that you have a Web form that sends :name and :age
23:35	antares_	SrPx: and your Web library passes them to you as a map, {:name "joe", :age 30}
23:35	antares_	but you wnat to pick them into locals and use them separately
23:36	antares_	like log "saw Joe, 30 years old"
23:36	antares_	you need separate vars for that, right?
23:36	antares_	this is what map destructuring does, takes values from a map
23:37	antares_	,(let [{:keys [name age]} {:name "Joe", :age 30}] name)
23:37	clojurebot	"Joe"
23:37	antares_	,(let [{:keys [name age]} {:name "Joe", :age 30}] age)
23:37	clojurebot	30
23:37	antares_	,(let [{:keys [name age]} {:name "Joe", :age 30}] (format "Saw %s, %d years old" name age))
23:37	clojurebot	"Saw Joe, 30 years old"
23:38	SrPx	õo
23:38	antares_	SrPx: I wish I could do a multiline example but clojurebot is not advanced enough. It would make more sense
23:38	antares_	let me gist it
23:38	antares_	clojurebot: when will you grow up?
23:38	clojurebot	Excuse me?
23:38	SrPx	,(let [{:keys [a b]} {:name "Joe", :age 30}] a)
23:38	clojurebot	nil
23:39	SrPx	,(let [{:keys [name]} {:name "Joe", :age 30}] name)
23:39	clojurebot	"Joe"
23:39	SrPx	,(let [{:fff [name]} {:name "Joe", :age 30}] name)
23:39	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: :fff>
23:39	SrPx	binding form, interesting
23:39	SrPx	is not there a less redundant way to write that single example?
23:40	antares_	SrPx: https://gist.github.com/82d0c67a18fd624207f1
23:40	SrPx	(let-keys {:name "Joe", :age 30} name)
23:40	SrPx	or something
23:40	antares_	SrPx: you can write a macro that would do that, in Clojure itself :)
23:40	metellus	SrPx: two different things are happening here
23:41	antares_	but I think most of the time going that far is not worth it
23:41	antares_	SrPx: in my gist above I destructure right what is passed in the function
23:41	metellus	or really, the reason that looks awkward is because this is a contrived single line example
23:41	antares_	without using let
23:41	SrPx	wait
23:41	antares_	what metellus said
23:42	SrPx	you are using that in the place of function(what_would_be_here) { }
23:42	antares_	we have to use let and fit everything into one line
23:42	SrPx	I think I get it now
23:42	antares_	SrPx: yes, I destructure right on the parameters
23:42	antares_	SrPx: in, say, Python, I would do "give me name from kwargs, then give me age"
23:43	antares_	here you have them in the params definition, sort of
23:43	SrPx	hold on, { } is a dict and [ ] is an array right
23:43	antares_	yes
23:43	SrPx	this is not usual for lisps is it
23:43	antares_	SrPx: correct, CL and Scheme use lists for everything
23:43	antares_	but that's why let in emacs lisp is pretty noisy
23:43	antares_	Clojure by design uses vectors for let, defn and in some other places
23:44	antares_	[ and ] stand out visually
23:44	antares_	so this is intentional
23:45	uvtc	SrPx: in Clojure, `[]` produces a vector. The term "array" is generally used for referring to Java arrays (which you shouldn't encounter while learning Clojure).
23:45	antares_	SrPx: for comparison: https://gist.github.com/4af7b60fcc19aefc2493
23:46	SrPx	antares_: this is good... any other syntax sugars?
23:47	uvtc	SrPx: there's a handful of them. #{:a :b :c} is for creating a set. #"foo" is for creating a regex.
23:47	antares_	SrPx: in more sophisticated forms like cond, condp you will find similar simplifications
23:48	antares_	yes, sets and regular expressions in the syntax is a good example of what many lisps do not have
23:48	SrPx	can I somehow use macros to turn it into an array language?
23:49	antares_	SrPx: what is an array language?
23:49	brehaut	something like APL or J i think
23:49	SrPx	it is a language where arrays can be treated like instances
23:49	michaelr`	good morning
23:49	tvladeck	hi, does anyone here use vimclojure?
23:49	antares_	SrPx: there are macros in math/stats packages like Incanter that make it possible to write things similar to (1 + 2 + 3) instead of (+ 1 2 3)
23:50	brehaut	~anyone
23:50	SrPx	((+ 1) [1 2 3 4]) would translate into [2 3 4 5] or something like that
23:50	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
23:50	tvladeck	sure
23:50	SrPx	(+ 1) being partial application
23:50	clojurebot	1
23:50	tvladeck	i can't get vim to connect to a running nailgun server
23:50	antares_	SrPx: partial application is done a bit differently but yes, you can even do things like that
23:50	dnolen	SrPx: people were asking that question in 1979 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=804474
23:50	SrPx	brehaut: how would he ask ? o.o
23:50	tvladeck	i keep getting the error: 10 Reason:
23:50	tvladeck	11 Vim(let):E484: Can't open file /var/folders/4r/6ndrr64x24n9kfxh7xcfmt_r0000gn/T/vPI9Uyw/1
23:51	antares_	SrPx: I would not say it is always a good idea, but Clojure will give you that much freedom in case you need it
23:51	brehaut	SrPx: he would ask his question directly, eg 'I'm using vimclojure and i [want to do X\|cant get Y to work]'
23:51	SrPx	I need to see this article
23:51	arubin	Is there any particular reason why maps are functions but records are not?
23:51	SrPx	damn
23:52	SrPx	brehaut: ok
23:52	tvladeck	apologies; new to clojure and programming in particular. i am trying to use vimclojure and cannot for the life of me get a repl started in vim
23:53	brehaut	tvladeck: no offense. its just a channel etiqutte thing
23:53	tvladeck	brehaut: for sure. no worries
23:54	antares_	arubin: there is but I cannot find the link and recall it myself
23:54	antares_	arubin: basically, this is by design
23:55	brehaut	tvladeck: now hopefully someone who uses vimclojure will be around and can help you. there are people who use it who frequent the channel
23:55	tvladeck	brehaut: awesome. going to spend that time doing the emacs tutorial :)
23:55	brehaut	good plan :)
23:55	emezeske	tvladeck: are you using lein-tarsier?
23:55	tvladeck	i am
23:56	SrPx	dnolen: how did you find that paper so fast and how can I read it
23:56	emezeske	tvladeck: how did you go about installing the vimclojure plugin?
23:57	tvladeck	pathogen
23:57	brehaut	SrPx: dnolan is actually citeseer; the number of scheme and haskell papers cited gained critical mass, and the result was an intelegent entity that inhabits the channel and produces clojure libraries
23:58	emezeske	tvladeck: I don't know what all this /var/folders/4r/... business is
23:58	tvladeck	emezeske: me neither!
23:58	xeqi	and builds clojurescript
23:58	uvtc	tvladeck, if you're new, you might just consider having vim open in one window, and the `lein repl` running in another. You can make changes to your src/core.clj file, then in the repl reload those changes by doing `(require 'foo.core :reload)`.
23:59	brehaut	xeqi: its the only scenario that makes any sense
23:59	dnolen	brehaut: haha
23:59	tvladeck	uvtc: that's how i have been doing things, and it's actually quite productive
23:59	uvtc	tvladeck, (that is, assuming for that example that your project is named "foo")
23:59	tvladeck	lein repl (namespace) is pretty good
23:59	uvtc	tvladeck, me too (though I'm using Emacs)
23:59	dnolen	SrPx: Lisp is 50 years old. Nearly any CS idea anyone has ever had has probably appeared in a Lisp paper in some form or another.