#clojure – 2012-06-05

2012-06-05

00:04	gf3	WEEEOOOOOOOOOOO
00:04	gf3	REFERENCE HEAPING
00:13	eggsby	is anyone here familiar w/ aleph? I'm trying to use the udp aspect but every time I try to enqueue a message to the receiving port I get ":lamina/already-realized!", anyone familiar?
00:14	eggsby	https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/UDP and https://www.refheap.com/paste/3002
00:22	eggsby	ah, I had to dereference the channel
00:48	pheartheceal	Hey guys, I'm back
00:48	pheartheceal	I'm stuck on problem 21 on 4clojure
00:48	pheartheceal	"Write a function which returns the Nth element from a sequence."
00:49	pheartheceal	But I can't use the 'nth' function
00:49	pheartheceal	I'm confused on how I can keep incrementing a variable until it reaches the nth place I'm looking for
00:50	xumingmingv	use first/next
00:51	pheartheceal	I am
00:51	kovasb	you can also do it recursively
00:51	pheartheceal	I figured out how to go through the list recursively
00:51	gf3	Can't simply use drop/first I guess?
00:51	kovasb	instead of incrementing, pass the number in as an argument
00:51	kovasb	in addition to the remaining list
00:52	pheartheceal	The function can only take two arguments though
00:52	pheartheceal	http://www.4clojure.com/problem/21#prob-title
00:52	pheartheceal	Otherwise I would have done that first
00:52	gf3	pheartheceal: recur inside the function
00:53	pheartheceal	can I recure two arguments?
00:53	kovasb	you can make an anonymous function that iterates exactly n times
00:53	kovasb	your main function gets n, creates this anonymous function and then invokes it with the list
00:54	pheartheceal	ha!
00:54	pheartheceal	Got it
00:54	pheartheceal	thanks gf3
00:54	pheartheceal	(fn [l x] (if (= x 0) (first l) (recur (rest l) (- x 1))) )
00:55	gf3	Woo!
00:56	eggsby	I wonder why it won't let you use destructuring there
00:56	eggsby	(fn [[f & r] n] ;...)
01:23	amalloy	&(macroexpand-1 '(fn [[f & r] n] n)) ;; eggsby
01:23	lazybot	⇒ (fn* ([p__10985 n] (clojure.core/let [[f & r] p__10985] n)))
01:23	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(clojure.core/let [[f & r] p__10985] n))
01:23	lazybot	⇒ (let* [vec__10993 p__10985 f (clojure.core/nth vec__10993 0 nil) r (clojure.core/nthnext vec__10993 1)] n)
03:02	TheBusby	Any idea why clojure.core.reducers/fold in Clojure "1.5.0-alpha1" would throw NoClassDefFoundError for jsr166y/ForkJoinTask on Java 1.7 ?
03:13	leku	re
03:39	TheBusby	guessing maybe AOT compilation is for Java 1.6 and not 1.7?
03:42	amalloy	i think it got AOTed against 1.7, actually; usually people with an issue like this are running 1.6
03:47	TheBusby	that's what I thought, which is why I'm finding this error strange
03:49	TheBusby	amalloy: recompiled clojure-1.5.0-alpha1.jar from source, and everything works fine now
03:50	TheBusby	looks like [org.clojure/clojure "1.5.0-alpha1"] is compiled on Java 1.6 :(
03:53	amalloy	TheBusby: if you can figure out how, i'm sure rich would love a patch for actually-dynamically deciding where the framework lives, instead of doing it at AOT time
03:53	amalloy	that code's near the beginning of clojure.core.reducers
03:53	TheBusby	I was looking at it a minute ago, to make sure I didn't have anything setup incorrectly
03:54	TheBusby	unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the Java eco-system, so that isn't an area I can dive into without spending a lot of up front time. I'm sorry :(
03:57	amalloy	TheBusby: no need to apologize; nobody's paying you to do it
03:58	amalloy	that said, i don't think it's a java-oriented task at all. i think the existing code can be made to work with a little bit of ugly fiddling just in clojure
03:59	amalloy	eg, instead of checking in compile-if, define fjinvoke (and similar functions) so that, the first time they're called, they do the checking and alter-var-root themselves to an appropriate function, compiled via eval
03:59	TheBusby	amalloy: I can think of a number of simple dirty ways to do it, but since this is at such a low level it needs to be done very cleanly...
04:00	TheBusby	ahh, didn't know about alter-var-root
04:23	michaelr525	hello
04:29	augustl	https://github.com/tavisrudd/redis-clojure makes no mention of any documentation - anyone know where I can find it?
04:30	clgv	augustl: you probably have use 'doc then
04:32	clgv	augustl: or check the source of redis/core.clj - if you dont learn anything from it, you should probably not use this lib
04:32	michaelr525	i wonder why the solution in the comment here: http://www.snowfrog.net/2012/06/04/4clojure-97-pascals-triangle/ fails with stackoverflow even after replacing (nth) with (take 1 (drop n))
04:32	michaelr525	does anyone know?
04:34	clgv	michaelr525: its written recursively without tail recursion. so it will consume the stack until nothing is left for large inputs
04:34	clgv	you'd have the same problem in other languages that have no built-in tail call optimization
04:36	clgv	michaelr525: if you want to write that programm, you can use a dynamic programming style instead of recursion
04:38	amalloy	clgv: you'd have the same problem in any language with TCO as well, unless you're suggesting the compiler is so smart it can rewrite this algorithm to be tail-recursive
04:38	michaelr525	clgv: i though that lazy sequences somehow solve that, no?
04:38	michaelr525	thought
04:38	amalloy	michaelr525: they can, but you have to be delicate
04:38	clgv	amalloy: right, that phrasing above was not ideal ;)
04:38	amalloy	have you looked at anyone else's solution?
04:39	clgv	michaelr525: yes they can. you can look at the first comment
04:39	michaelr525	nope, i've just stumbled on this blog and it looked interesting since I've implemented a large lazy seq a few days ago and it worked really well without overflowing
04:39	michaelr525	clgv: i'm talking about the first comment :)
04:40	augustl	clgv: ah, I'm not yet used to the fact that docs are built-in to the language :)
04:40	clgv	augustl: but that core.clj seems not to have much doc strings anyway
04:41	clgv	michaelr525: oh? it shouldnt stackoverflow but heapoverflow since he is holding on to the head of the lazyseq
04:41	amalloy	clgv: no, he is recursing indefinitely
04:42	amalloy	https://gist.github.com/2873658 is a solution that works for any N
04:42	clgv	amalloy: in the first comment with the next-row function? I think thats lazy and should work if he wouldn stick to the head. but I never used lazy-cat so I might be mistaken about how it works
04:43	tomoj	clojure.string/replace should be named clojure.string/replace-all
04:43	tomoj	oh well
04:43	tomoj	:rename {replace replace-all}
04:43	amalloy	clgv: i guess that's true, it's not the most-obvious kind of stackoverflow
04:44	amalloy	but it is a pretty common sort; see here for the example i always use:
04:44	amalloy	$google stackoverflow prime sieve dbyrne
04:44	lazybot	[recursion - Recursive function causing a stack overflow - Stack ...] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2946764/recursive-function-causing-a-stack-overflow
04:44	ro_st	is there something like ruby's resque in clojure?
04:45	ro_st	google it, ro_st!
04:46	clgv	amalloy: oh right. the rows are not realized in the call to `next-row`
04:46	michaelr525	so it's a 'holding the head' case?
04:47	clgv	michaelr525: nope. you can fix it with a doall wrapped around the body of next-row. holding on to the head can be fixed by moving the iterate statement into the pascal function
04:48	michaelr525	amalloy: isn't this stuff compile time only? : `(0 ~@row)
04:48	amalloy	it's just shorthand for (concat [0] row)
04:48	amalloy	shorthand which is most often useful when writing macros, but in no way restricted to it
04:48	clgv	amalloy: uuuh thats an evil trick for minimizing the golf score ;)
04:49	michaelr525	:)
04:50	clgv	amalloy: but your solution should have the same "map-stacking issue".
04:50	amalloy	mmmm, you think so?
04:50	amalloy	yes, i suppose it will. it's a subtle trick to get used to
04:51	amalloy	as always you can fix it with a doall
04:56	michaelr525	i don't understand how doall fixes anything, the doc says it's holding on the head
04:56	michaelr525	,(doc doall)
04:57	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. doall can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, retains the head and returns it, thus causing the entire seq to reside in memory at one time."
04:59	augustl	in ring, is it correct to say that the handler might get called multiple times for one request? It seems that middlewares typically manually call the handler function
04:59	augustl	..when you use middlewares, that is, typically via the threading macro
05:01	augustl	seems kind of odd, since handlers might have side effects like writing to a databse
05:02	clgv	michaelr525: doall realizes the row hence there will be no recursive stacking of map statements
05:02	tomoj	I have some mutable state (settable static fields in java) that I can't easily avoid using from clojure
05:02	tomoj	I have two functions, lex and parse. lex needs the fields set one way, parse the other, and parse calls lex once
05:03	tomoj	how can I avoid concurrency problems?
05:04	tomoj	I mean, one way is to just synchronize all lex and parse calls, but what's better?
05:04	antares_	tomoj: you can just lock. (locking obj …)
05:04	tomoj	but then only one thread will be used, while I could be running multiple parses or multiple lexes at a time
05:05	antares_	tomoj: that's not true. You can use any number of threads. They will have to wait on the lock some of the time, but that's how things are with mutable shared state.
05:06	tomoj	oh, right, but I mean it will all be synchronized
05:06	antares_	tomoj: also, what kind of state do you share between parsers?
05:06	tomoj	only one parse or lex happening at the same time
05:06	antares_	I can't think of any
05:06	tomoj	the only state is this static field which configures the behavior of an external library I'm using
05:07	antares_	tomoj: set it once and don't modify it in your parser
05:07	tomoj	it's a boolean field that needs to be true when lex runs and false when parse runs
05:07	antares_	tomoj: then just use a lock
05:08	antares_	there is no magical solution to shared global state in a 3rd-party library.
05:08	augustl	anyone got some examples of doing side effects (database stuff) in ring?
05:08	tomoj	I'm not looking for a magical solution, I'm looking for a real solution
05:08	antares_	so either avoid this shared state in your design (why do parsers and lexers need to constantly reconfigure external library?) or lock
05:08	tomoj	one solution is to run a big batch of lexes first and then run a big batch of parses
05:08	tomoj	locking means I only use one core
05:08	tomoj	yes?
05:08	clojurebot	yes is is
05:09	antares_	tomoj: sorry but that's not true
05:09	antares_	tomoj: locking means the section of code that is locked will be accessible to one thread at a time but all the other work can proceed in any number of threads
05:09	tomoj	there basically is no other work
05:09	antares_	tomoj: but more importantly, you cannot avoid it in your case unless you don't run lexers and parsers separately
05:10	antares_	which may be a good idea if you can do it
05:10	antares_	tomoj: do you have any profiling results that show that lock contention is really the bottleneck?
05:11	tomoj	lock contention?
05:11	augustl	seems like you have to do side effects in a middleware in Ring. So my handler should return a key that the middleware can read to do data operations.
05:12	antares_	tomoj: the time spent by threads waiting for the lock to be released
05:13	tomoj	well the answer is no
05:14	tomoj	if I have 8 cores and I can run 8 parses at a time and 8 lexes at a time, why wouldn't this by ~8x faster than 1 parse and 1 lex at a time?
05:14	michaelr525	clgv: sorry, i still don't get it :) everything seems lazy here and the sequence of rows realized when pascal is called..
05:14	antares_	tomoj: because your current algorithm has inherent mutable shared state
05:14	antares_	tomoj: I suggest that you learn what lock contention is and run some profiles
05:14	antares_	otherwise it's a bit like that Web Scale movie
05:14	tomoj	I can run 8 parses and 8 lexes (separately) at a time even with the mutable state
05:15	antares_	then do it
05:15	tomoj	locking means I can only run 1 parse or 1 lex
05:15	tomoj	or is that wrong?
05:15	antares_	tomoj: that's incorrect
05:15	antares_	for that particular locked critical section it is true but there should be some other work involved
05:15	antares_	other than flipping that boolean field
05:15	antares_	otherwise what your parser and lexer are doing?
05:16	tomoj	ok, right, if my minimal processing of the results is the bottleneck, then yeah
05:16	tomoj	the parser and lexer are in the external library
05:16	tomoj	(the calls to which need to be in the critical section)
05:17	antares_	tomoj: use locking first, run some profiling with VIsualVM, it will be clear from the thread tab if there is serious contention or not (if all lines are mostly red, there is)
05:17	antares_	and in that case, run all lexers first and then all parsers
05:17	antares_	using a countdown latch, for example, to make sure you run parsers only when all lexers have finished
05:17	michaelr525	clgv: but i understand that somehow the problem is caused by (map) which is recursive, right?
05:17	clgv	michaelr525: the problem is that each row is not realized until you access the lazyseq of 'iterate. that means that you get something like (map + (lazy-cat ... (map + (lazy-cat ... (map ...)) (lazy-cat (map ...) ...)) (lazy-cat (map + (lazy-cat ... (map ...)) (lazy-cat (map ...) ...) ...))
05:17	tomoj	antares_: thanks
05:20	ro_st	OT: email hosting. want to stop using godaddy. suggestions?
05:20	ro_st	(please)
05:20	clgv	=> nil
05:23	tomoj	I assume gmail doesn't satisfy
05:25	ro_st	it's a bit expensive.. $5pm
05:25	ro_st	we're in south africa. our currency is $ * 8.
05:26	ro_st	i found rackspace email for $2 which looks great
05:26	ro_st	probably go with them, and dnsimple.com for dns/ssl
05:27	michaelr525	clgv: i think i'm beginning to see it now, in order to get row N iterate is actually building a recursive call graph of (next-row (next-row (next-row..
05:28	michaelr525	clgv: ok, now i understand why doall fixes it :)
05:28	michaelr525	thanks!!
05:30	michaelr525	ro_st: why not run your own?
05:31	ro_st	michaelr525: don't want the headache, tbh
05:31	ro_st	moving away from self-host towards cloud. time is more important than money for us, now. small startup starting to get big work
05:32	ro_st	anyone got clojure code in production on heroku? wanting to see if i can ballpark reqs/sec to get an idea of how many dynos i'll need
05:33	ro_st	i guess i should just put something up and hammer it!
05:34	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: exactly. measure yourself.
05:35	ro_st	i would be keen to hear from others what sort of perf they're getting, though
05:36	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: I'd suppose that very depends on the application, won't it?
05:37	ro_st	of course. which is precisely why i'd like to hear from others. what apps get what throughput?
05:38	ordnungswidrig	I see.
05:38	ro_st	being heroku, the underlying platform is very even. comparisons between apps will be a lot more telling because you really are comparing the apps, not the apps and the stacks they're on
05:38	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: that's a point. supposed the platform is really even :-) I cannot judge on that.
05:38	ordnungswidrig	brb
05:41	vijaykiran	ro_st: you might be interested in discussion here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4062364 if you haven't seen that already
05:44	ro_st	thanks, i had read the post but not the discussion
05:52	borkdude	is there anything against just using public fields in internal "dtos" that are not exposed via public apis?
05:52	borkdude	instead of all the getter/setter malarkey
05:58	michaelr525	after using amazon for a month I realized just how expensive they are, went on and rented a dedicated server at hetzner. but i am just using it for my projects which are not generating revenue at the moment. a financed startup should probably use the cloud imo
06:13	ro_st	when comparing the costs of cloud vs a salary for a fulltime devops person, the cloud wins
06:38	antares_	ro_st: not if you need a lot of RAM or good IOPS
06:39	antares_	in that case, you quickly run into thousands of $ per month with a bunch of extra large instances and EBS volumes. Plus, AWS is not 0 maintenance: instances go down sometimes randomly, throughput is not very predictable.
06:39	ro_st	our app is such that there isn't a big io requirement. we don't work with manual file writes outside of marginal things like profile pics
06:40	ro_st	it's very much straight-forward request > database > html/json > response type stuff
06:41	ro_st	heroku will take us from where we are now (couple thousand users, couple hundred concurrent) to the point where it makes sense to hire a full time dev-ops and run our own metal
06:42	ro_st	once we get to the end of that sentence, we should have more than enough revenue to do that properly
06:42	ro_st	thanks for your feedback, antares_. good to know. i'm not naive enough to think that it's a silver bullet
07:36	ro_st	why do i not get locals in the exception browser, but i do when using swank/debug?
07:39	wink	I have weird performance experiences on EC2 large
07:40	wink	not sure I'd ever go there again
07:53	michaelr525	hello
07:53	kij_	Heey
07:58	ro_st	using korma sql, i keep getting "Message: Communications link failure" errors
07:58	ro_st	if i re-run then it goes through ok
08:03	gfredericks	,:/
08:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :/>
08:04	kij_	ro_st: still on mysql ?
08:07	ro_st	kij_: aye
08:11	ro_st	busy writing clj to convert mysql data to mongo
08:13	kij_	ro_st: I dont use mysql, but cant you find something in the server logs?
08:14	antares_	mysql has the famous "server gone away" issue with connections that may be stale for hours
08:14	antares_	when the server just closes down the connection
08:14	antares_	so on the 1st request it fails but then decent clients try to reconnect
08:15	antares_	although if there's constant activity, it is probably something else
08:16	mittchel	If you save something in an atom.. is this saved only for the lifetime of the application or also when you rerun the program?
08:16	antares_	mittchel: atoms and other clojure reference types are in-memory
08:22	gfredericks	core.logic has compelled me to type "expresso"
08:28	kij_	gfredericks: care to explain ?
08:31	gfredericks	kij_: it was just an espresso joke; a core.logic naming convention appends 'o' to words
08:33	kij_	gfredericks: Ahh, sure. :) neato
08:42	TimMc	or other vowels
08:44	tomoj	,(.replaceAll (re-matcher #"\\s" "foo bar") "")
08:44	clojurebot	"foo bar"
08:44	tomoj	,(.replaceAll (re-matcher #"b" "foo bar") "")
08:44	clojurebot	"foo ar"
08:44	tomoj	why?
08:44	clojurebot	Why is why
08:44	clgv	,(.replaceAll (re-matcher #"\s" "foo bar") "")
08:44	clojurebot	"foobar"
08:45	clgv	regexp literals are special - you dont need to escape the backslash
08:45	TimMc	clojurebot: forget Why \|is\| why
08:45	clojurebot	I forgot that Why is why
08:46	tomoj	aha
08:46	tomoj	thanks
08:46	clgv	why?
08:46	clojurebot	why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
08:46	clgv	lol^^
08:46	TimMc	It's got a few, but that one sucked.
08:46	foxdonut	&(inc TimMc)
08:46	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: TimMc in this context
08:59	clgv	(inc TimMc)
08:59	lazybot	⇒ 7
08:59	foxdonut	(inc clgv)
08:59	lazybot	⇒ 3
09:00	clgv	$karma foxdonut
09:00	lazybot	foxdonut has karma 1.
09:01	clgv	,(println "(dec clgv)")
09:01	clojurebot	(dec clgv)
09:01	lazybot	⇒ 2
09:01	clgv	;)
09:02	foxdonut	clgv: lol, that's clever
09:02	clgv	,(println "(inc clgv)")
09:02	clojurebot	(inc clgv)
09:02	lazybot	⇒ 3
09:02	clgv	yeah. clojurebot is a willing slave ^^
09:02	foxdonut	(map inc [clgv TimMc])
09:03	clgv	thats not implemented ;)
09:08	foxdonut	(inc lazybot)
09:08	lazybot	⇒ 5
09:11	clgv	(inc lazybot 10)
09:11	lazybot	⇒ -1
09:11	clgv	(inc lazybot)
09:11	lazybot	⇒ 6
09:11	clgv	(inc clojure)
09:11	lazybot	⇒ 5
09:20	gfredericks	,(dotimes [n 3] (println "(inc cheating)"))
09:21	clojurebot	(inc cheating)
09:21	lazybot	⇒ 1
09:21	clojurebot	(inc cheating)
09:21	lazybot	⇒ 2
09:21	clojurebot	(inc cheating)
09:21	lazybot	⇒ 3
09:21	Hodapp	what do you folks use Clojure for?
09:21	Hodapp	...besides harassing those poor bots
09:21	alexyakushev	Sometimes we harass people with it
09:22	gfredericks	mucking with logic programming
09:23	Hodapp	gfredericks: ooh, like what?
09:25	foxdonut	Hodapp: web development
09:26	Hodapp	foxdonut: whaaaaaaaaat?
09:27	Hodapp	that looks like taking a page from the Paul Graham playbook
09:28	TimMc	Hodapp: I wrote my wedding gift registry site in Clojure.
09:28	Hodapp	Why didn't you just do it in something simple like PHP?
09:29	TimMc	$google PHP is a fractal of bad design.
09:29	foxdonut	Hodapp: PHP? You've got to be joking.
09:29	lazybot	[PHP: a fractal of bad design - fuzzy notepad] http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
09:29	Hodapp	TimMc: I like that article. "fractal of bad design" is very descriptiove.
09:29	Hodapp	-o
09:30	foxdonut	Hodapp: PHP is to web development what McDonald's is to food.
09:30	kilon	horse meat ?
09:30	foxdonut	sure it's quick, easy, cheap, and tasty, but in the long run it's really bad for your health!
09:30	augustl	is there a guide somewhere on clojure.org for -> and ->> etc?
09:31	borkdude	,(doc ->)
09:31	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
09:31	borkdude	,(doc ->>)
09:31	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
09:31	Hodapp	foxdonut: I've been lucky enough to have not written more than 40 lines of PHP in my life.
09:31	augustl	other than the (doc) which is very minimal :)
09:32	Hodapp	foxdonut: I wasn't aware anyone used Clojure for web development.
09:32	Hodapp	not that I'd really checked.
09:32	borkdude	Hodapp my students are also making a small webapp in clojure as a final product, it's not that difficult if you know where to start (noir)
09:32	foxdonut	Hodapp: it's actually a really good fit. f(request) = response.
09:32	borkdude	Hodapp small course, only 5 lessons
09:33	Hodapp	borkdude: link?
09:33	augustl	Hodapp: why not use clojure to build web apps? I think functional paragdims are a great fit for the web. You get a request in, and have to return a response.
09:33	Hodapp	augustl: Mostly because every time I hear "web app" I reach for the bourbon.
09:33	borkdude	Hodapp link to what?
09:33	TimMc	$google clojure noir
09:33	lazybot	[Noir] http://webnoir.org/
09:33	augustl	Hodapp: so the web is your pet peeve or something? :)
09:34	TimMc	Web programming is a mess.
09:34	cemerick	Hodapp: well done, sir! :-)
09:34	Hodapp	augustl: No, I've just had to use Java EE.
09:34	kilon	web is a mess
09:34	augustl	I'm not a big fan of noir though.. It uses a bunch of side effects for a lot of things, like setting cookies
09:34	foxdonut	Hodapp: I can respect your running away from web development, but that has nothing to do with using Clojure or anything else for it.
09:34	augustl	instead of just returning something
09:35	zomg	Hodapp: the last time I had to use Java EE, I jumped ship
09:35	augustl	I've used compojure for a small site, and I'm about to try it for a big site now
09:35	Hodapp	That was one thing I found appealing about how CGI and FastCGI worked.
09:35	borkdude	augustl how would you set a cookie without making that a side effect?
09:36	Hodapp	foxdonut: Yes, I know that that's the case.
09:36	borkdude	augustl return a new running webserver for each request? ;)
09:36	augustl	borkdude: return something that causes Set-Cookie to be set
09:36	zomg	You could build a response object or whatever is the correct terminology in Clojure lingo
09:36	augustl	borkdude: typically, your handler ends up returning {:status 200 :body "foo" :headers {}} etc, so you just add "Set-Cookie" as a header
09:36	borkdude	yes, I guess that is possible
09:37	augustl	or as ring/compojure does it, {:status 200 :cookie {.....}} and does the heavy lifting for you
09:37	borkdude	augustl I guess you could also do it by falling back to compojure in noir? I didn't really go this far yet
09:37	augustl	probably, but I don't see what noir really brings to the table, other than defpage which is kind of useful
09:38	solussd_	is it possible to have emacs/swank just abort immediately on exception, rather than me having to explicitly abort? It'd be nice to see the exception in another buffer, but be able to just carry on
09:38	augustl	I'd prefer a compojure-defpage over noir any day though :)
09:38	borkdude	augustl it's easy for beginners I guess
09:38	borkdude	augustl you can do a lot of stuff by just looking at the noir api
09:38	solussd_	I like noir b/c it works nicely with things like fetch. :D
09:39	augustl	borkdude: easy for beginners is not really important for me...
09:39	augustl	not because I'm not a beginner, I am
09:39	augustl	but because in 1 month I won't be, and then I'll never be a beginner again :)
09:39	foxdonut	I think learning noir as a beginner is a mistake.
09:39	gfredericks	Hodapp: a program that generates various expressions for 42
09:39	augustl	so I prefer to optimize for the post-beginner stage ;)
09:39	solussd_	and noir isnt robbing you of any power- it's just making a few things simpler
09:39	foxdonut	I prefer the bottom-up approach. Learn ring, then compojure, then noir, so you understand what noir is doing for you.
09:40	augustl	I suppose noir is also nice if you don't want to deal with functional programming
09:40	augustl	but rather thread local state and all that jazz
09:41	zomg	What are the pros of using Clojure in web dev vs. something else?
09:41	zomg	Just wondering if there's something neat, like type-safe routes or type-safe URL generation like in Haskell web stacks
09:41	borkdude	type-safe?
09:42	borkdude	in clojure?
09:42	zomg	Hey I'm a noob :)
09:42	cshell_	Probably the same benefits as using Clojure anywhere else
09:42	augustl	web dev is one of those cases where parallellism isn't really that much of a big deal in OOP, as you typically do one thread per request, and don't share things across requests, etc
09:42	augustl	due to the request/response nature
09:43	augustl	but yeah, what cshell said :)
09:43	borkdude	the benefit for using clojure in web dev is: you can use clojure
09:43	cshell	lol
09:43	zomg	I'd count "not being fucking hard to learn" as one if comparing against haskell...
09:43	zomg	=)
09:43	augustl	the other day I was cleaning up my page.clj into two files, one for getting them, routing them etc, and one for dealing with one single page. It was as simple as just extracting the functions, since I didn't have any shared state in an object etc
09:43	cshell	haha, depends on who you ask I guess :)
09:44	borkdude	the con in using clojure in web dev is though: you have to use clojure ;P
09:44	augustl	this is a FP benefit though, not specificailly clojure..
09:44	cshell	I think using Clojure for web dev is much simpler than using the Java web stacks in my experience
09:44	borkdude	well not exactly, you can defer to the underlying host of course
09:44	augustl	zomg: of course the major benefit for clojure is that it's hosted on platforms with huge ecosystems
09:44	augustl	zomg: finding libs to do, say, parsing of MS excel files might be harder in Haskell than for the JVM or .Net
09:45	cshell	zomg: augustl is right, it works wonderfully on Heroku
09:45	zomg	cshell: yeah definitely, although my exposure to java web stacks isn't very big, I do remember them being very much a PITA :P
09:45	zomg	augustl: true
09:45	augustl	zomg: ask the same question in 1 month when I've written a large-ish web app with Clojure :)
09:46	zomg	The large amount of libs for Java was always a big pro for Java in my books but I just never really liked the enterpriseyness of everything =)
09:46	borkdude	one benefit in using clojure is maybe also: you can use clojurescript on the client side of things
09:46	augustl	hopefully my peers won't kill me for ninjaing in clojure
09:46	augustl	zomg: compared to Ruby, I've grown to like the libs on the Java platform. Not the frameworks mind you, but the libs
09:46	augustl	like the apache HTTP lib, it has EVERYTHING and is 100% standards compliant, etc
09:46	borkdude	zomg books?
09:46	ordnungswidrig	anyone tried openshift with clojure webapps yet?
09:47	augustl	(I'm new to the JVM)
09:47	zomg	borkdude: huh?
09:47	borkdude	zomg "was always a big pro for Java in my books" is this a saying in English? (sorry, my bad)
09:47	zomg	Ah :)
09:48	zomg	Yeah, it's sort of like saying "in my opinion" or such
09:48	borkdude	zomg yeh ok, I sort of figured
09:48	augustl	in my book*
09:48	augustl	afaik ;)
09:48	zomg	haha, could be :P
09:49	duck1123	he has more than one book
09:49	augustl	one book for each hat?
09:50	zomg	hats hats hats hats
09:50	zomg	and pootis
09:50	zomg	If you don't get that, let's just say I've played too much TF2
09:50	zomg	=)
09:50	borkdude	TF2 isn't that a Microsoft game where you can commit code etc?
09:51	zomg	Thankfully no :D
09:51	borkdude	:P
09:51	foxdonut	augustl I don't eat ham ;)
09:51	zomg	Although I have used that MS game where you can commit code, but before you must check out the file for your personal use
09:51	zomg	And then when I forgot to commit and went off to holidays, the sysadmin had to unlock all my files for everyone else...
09:51	adu	augustl: how long have you been speaking English?
09:52	freiksenet	have anyone used riak with clojure? Is clj-riak okay to use or is it better to use java lib?
09:52	augustl	adu: hard to tell.. 15 years on paper, had english in school, not sure how long I've been really using english.
09:53	duck1123	freiksenet: there's the clojurewerkz one
09:53	zomg	Sounds about as long as I have if counting when we had english in school
09:53	antares_	freiksenet: http://clojureriak.info
09:53	antares_	freiksenet: look no further
09:53	freiksenet	aha, thanks
09:53	freiksenet	missed that one because of the weird name
09:54	borkdude	talking about web dev, has anyone used struts2?
09:54	duck1123	with clojure?
09:54	borkdude	I have to acquaint myself with it
09:54	borkdude	no, just as it is
09:55	borkdude	it would be nice if clojure could somehow be smuggled in of course
09:55	antares_	borkdude: it's the state of the art of crappy old frameworks ("before Rails" frameworks, basically)
09:55	foxdonut	borkdude: yes I've used S2. You have to learn it for work?
09:55	borkdude	antares_ what would be a newer better framework for java?
09:55	borkdude	foxdonut yes
09:55	augustl	antares_: Rails doesn't get enough credit for changing the scene :)
09:56	antares_	borkdude: there's probably more than one but Play (playframework.org) is the way to go, I'd say
09:56	duck1123	I have a new Java web-dev project on the horizon. I'm trying my hardest to figure out how I could convince them to let me use Ring
09:56	augustl	duck1123: there's a talk about that, how to get clojure into the enterprise
09:56	antares_	augustl: oh come on, whether you like Rails and its approach and community, it did shake things in the WEb frameworks world considerably, like nothing else in the 2000s :)
09:56	augustl	duck1123: basically, tell them that it's still Java, only different syntax (which is true)
09:56	duck1123	I tried looking into Play, but I ran into too much that wasn't finished
09:56	augustl	antares_: isn't that what I said?
09:57	foxdonut	borkdude: does it have to be S2 or could it be something else?
09:57	antares_	augustl: sorry, hard to understand things over the IRC after 11 hours of programming :(
09:57	augustl	antares_: haha, I know the feeling
09:57	borkdude	foxdonut it's kind of decided already for this year, but it could be any web framework
09:57	borkdude	foxdonut for java that is
09:58	Hodapp	it gets really frustrating at work because what I end up with is 10 different dismissals that all boil down to "I don't know this language, and that means I'm not top dog anymore."
09:58	borkdude	foxdonut it's for a course with a "first introduction into frameworks"
09:58	Hodapp	"No one uses this, it must not be useful", etc.
09:58	antares_	borkdude: I'd say Play 2 is as friendly as it gets in the Java landscape today
09:58	borkdude	antares_ good to know, I'll keep that in mind
09:58	augustl	Hodapp: sounds like making the best possible products isn't the biggest concern :)
09:59	foxdonut	borkdude: personally, for Java web development, I like Stripes (I'm biased on that one), and Spring MVC
09:59	adu	Hodapp: can you give me an example "dismissal"?
09:59	augustl	personally, I discarded Play when I saw they used exceptions for control flow in order to get a Ruby-like API.. (This was Play 1.x though)
10:00	antares_	freiksenet: let me know if you run into any issues, missing docs or any other problem with Welle. There's also a separate mailing list (clojure-riak google group).
10:00	freiksenet	antares_: looks very nice so far
10:00	freiksenet	is lack of secondary index support a protocol buffer problem or WIP?
10:00	freiksenet	i mean lack of supports during protocol buffer connection
10:00	antares_	freiksenet: it is a Riak 1.1 limitation
10:00	freiksenet	ok
10:01	antares_	in the future Riak versions, PBC will be feature complete
10:01	duck1123	I've been impressed with the clojurewerkz libraries. I'm deep in the middle of yanking Karras out and replacing it with Monger
10:01	antares_	freiksenet: actually, with Welle 2i will work for PBC (they should)
10:01	antares_	freiksenet: but this is because Welle/Riak Java driver cheat under the hood and use HTTP for 2i ;)
10:01	Hodapp	adu: "Yeah, sure, functional programming is a neat idea, and it's cool in theory, but no one uses it. For real programming, other languages are better."
10:01	antares_	duck1123: cool. Monger will go RC1 in a week or two :)
10:02	jcrossley3	ordnungswidrig: clojure on openshift is pretty straightforward: just hand it a war built with 'lein ring uberwar'. it's also possible to run immutant on there: https://github.com/projectodd/polyglot-openshift-example
10:02	augustl	Hodapp: some articles on FP briefly mention "big ultra scalable finance systems tend to use FP", I wish they also typically included references on that..
10:02	freiksenet	antares_: sounds good.
10:02	duck1123	I'm at the point where I only have a few failing tests left to fix. (then a lot more to write)
10:02	borkdude	antares_ my students don't know scala though, is that a problem with using play2?
10:02	adu	Hodapp: sounds drain bamaged
10:02	antares_	borkdude: play has Java API
10:02	antares_	borkdude: so no, it is not
10:02	Hodapp	augustl: Oh, I mentioned Erlang at Ericsson, and some big financial firms that used OCaml. These were ignored.
10:03	antares_	play was created to be used with scala or java
10:03	Hodapp	adu: pseudo-intellectual in many ways, really.
10:03	duck1123	finding the right docs for Play can be a pain because of the big changes between 1 and 2 and the Java/Scala split
10:03	borkdude	antares_ I see some configuration in http://www.playframework.org/documentation/2.0.1/NewApplication using scala I think
10:04	jweiss	is there an equivalent of "slime-connect" in Eclipse/CCW? i can't find where to connect to an existing swank server.
10:04	antares_	borkdude: http://www.playframework.org/documentation/2.0.1/JavaHome
10:04	Hodapp	adu: curiously, such discussions always culminate in "therefore, C++."
10:04	borkdude	antares_ ok tnx
10:05	adu	Hodapp: that's like saying: oh, nails are great and all, but nobody uses them
10:05	tomoj	any better way to write #(if (#{"foo" "bar"} (first %)) (second %) %) ?
10:05	adu	"we build every building out of paper these days, it's so green"
10:05	Hodapp	adu: well, of course not. Who's ever seen a nail anyway?
10:06	augustl	any suggestions for which Erlang book I should read? :)
10:07	Kototama	hi, is there a way to have the ring.middleware.stacktrace working with SLIME? i just get the stacktrace displayed as text but not the slime debugger on it
10:07	borkdude	antares_ do you recommend a book for play2, or just the online docs?
10:07	augustl	Hodapp: is the argument typically that content-free btw? No one uses FP, OOP is better for real programming - that doesn't actually say anything about anything
10:07	adu	Hodapp: after researching the US federal reserve system, I've come to the conclusion that most people are too lazy to think about anything
10:07	Hodapp	adu: The justification that it's easier to find a trained monkey who can write C++/Java than a trained monkey who can write $other_language also comes up a lot.
10:08	adu	Hodapp: that's new-world-order thinking, power-to-the-overlords thinking, we should be empowering the code monkeys instead
10:08	augustl	Hodapp: that's pretty common - optimizing for the 0.5% of the time as an employee when you aren't familiar with the systems..
10:09	Hodapp	augustl: Yes, it's fairly content-free and it seems to apply to every single paradigm except their favorite one.
10:11	augustl	Hodapp: I guess your only choice is to make it seem like using FP was their own idea :) Which is kind of trickster-y, but also useful since it'll make the people actually realize why FP is good as a side effect (no pun intended)
10:11	Hodapp	augustl: The problem is that they're almost always going to aim for the side of reinventing the wheel in a piss-poor way before they'll use someone else's wheel.
10:12	Hodapp	also, I'd be more likely to pay attention to their arguments if their conception of OOP in any way resembled what Alan Kay came up with when he coined the term
10:13	antares_	borkdude: I've read the Scala version, it's pretty good
10:13	augustl	in more general terms I suppose my point is that everyone is better off if you try to "help" them to see the light, rather than being angry at them. Not that I know which of those you're actually doing, just saying.
10:17	TimMc	The other day I pointed out to my boss that it would be easier for a new employee to learn Clojure than to get the hang of several Java EE frameworks that don't like to cooperate.
10:17	TimMc	He was dubious, but it's definitely true for my experience...
10:18	ordnungswidrig	g
10:18	ordnungswidrig	timmc: you're right. and it would not be bound to application server / web development stuff
10:19	borkdude	TimMc I think that might be true for Java EE stuff, but learning Clojure without Java itself is a bit difficult I think
10:19	augustl	TimMc: that's an interesting point
10:20	TimMc	borkdude: Nah, we're already a Java shop, so that's taken care of.
10:20	borkdude	TimMc I mean, you will run into Java Exceptions, interop stuff, later on
10:20	cshell	TimMc: I have had similar conversations, but the problem that comes up is that Clojure is too advanced for our 'average' developer
10:21	TimMc	cshell: And why are we hiring "average" developers?
10:21	TimMc	borkdude: It's when you try to combine CXF, Jetty, Velocity, Jackson, etc. there's a huge amount of domain-specific knowledge you need to load up on.
10:21	cshell	TimMc: My question was similar but was "why don't we get rid of the average developers"
10:21	TimMc	heh
10:21	augustl	it's a valid argument that your employees aren't skilled enough, but I don't think that's actually the case every time it's brought up
10:22	Hodapp	TimMc: I find it very curious that the lead dev here reminds us at least once a day how the average person is "completely retarded", but in matters of programming languages, when he says "no one uses this" - which is frequently - he's basically deferring to the average person's opinion.
10:22	cshell	TimMc: It's amazing how many people don't want to learn anything beyond what they already know (OO)
10:22	borkdude	I think Clojure can be learned by average developers, if they get proper education and if they are willing to learn
10:22	TimMc	I suppose it's hard for someone who has always used languages that enforce a strict language/program separation to understand that you can compare the learning of the two on a level playing field.
10:23	TimMc	borkdude: And we totally have above-average devs here anyway, so I'm not concerned about that. :-)
10:24	cshell	I've been trying to mentor developers on FP and the benefits, but I discovered they didn't even know how to write automated tests or do anything with DI or anything other than just throw code together to make it work
10:24	TimMc	Hodapp: That's excellent.
10:25	augustl	cshell: in those cases, the urge for OO is probably rooted in familiarity, most likely via schooling
10:25	cshell	augustl: I agree
10:26	TimMc	Maybe one day I will make a list of all the "languages" I have had to learn in Java Enterprise land.
10:26	gtrak	cshell: start with trying to get them to think about what they're doing in general
10:26	borkdude	augustl it begs for the question, why did it became the default in schooling?
10:26	borkdude	become
10:26	augustl	I know that when I was a noob programmer that did Rails, I wouldn't take you seriously if you suggested a "scientific" language like Clojure, and say to you that Ruby is designed for programmers, not computers!! etc :)
10:26	augustl	borkdude: that's an article I'd love to read :)
10:26	cshell	gtrak: yeah, I realized I have to go all the way back to the beginning
10:27	gtrak	kind of a chicken and egg
10:27	borkdude	augustl chicken and egg there also: somehow it became popular, so schools didn't so Fortran, Modula, Ada, etc but Java
10:28	borkdude	augustl which sucks!
10:28	borkdude	;)
10:28	borkdude	augustl you have to ask the question: why did it become popular in general
10:28	cshell	OO was considered much better for larger systems than procedural programming, which isn't necessarily the same as Functional Programming
10:29	cshell	and for the most part they were all single threaded way back then
10:29	augustl	my thesis, not based in any research whatsoever, is that OOP is easier to teach, since it can be modelled (ish) to real world stuff
10:29	augustl	teach, not learn, mind you
10:29	borkdude	cshell why didn't ML become very popular
10:29	clojurebot	the best solution is not to use xml at all
10:29	cshell	It seems like when OO first came out, separations of concerns was at the opposite end of the spectrum from where it is today - we were taught to build classes that contained data AND programming logic
10:30	cshell	borkdude: I was too young back then, but I was reading that Lisp wasn't very popular before because of the overhead it took - maybe that had an impact on the adoption of ML
10:30	augustl	it would be interesting to see research on the learning curve of OOP vs FP, for people that's never programmed before
10:30	augustl	s/that's/that have/
10:30	borkdude	augustl I think a lot of kiddo's start with javascript nowadays
10:30	cshell	I've arrived at the opinion that doing OO correctly leads you naturally into FP
10:31	cshell	as you can do the same things, but with much less code (ie more elegantly)
10:31	adu	I don't see OOP and FP as mutually exclusive, but I do see that languages tend to be only good at one at a time
10:31	TimMc	augustl: At Northeastern the CS Fundies class uses PLT Scheme^W^W Racket. People seem to pick it up pretty quickly.
10:31	augustl	what I do like to say about OP is that it basically boils down to FP under the hood - values and functions.
10:31	cshell	adu: That's my problem with Scala, it allows you to mix :(
10:32	adu	cshell: why is that a problem?
10:32	augustl	[myThing foo] in ObjC becomes objc_myThing(self, selector, foo), etc
10:32	TimMc	(compared to, say, the intro-level Java course I took elsewhere)
10:32	augustl	TimMc: that's interesting
10:32	TimMc	(both courses had excellent professors, by the way)
10:32	borkdude	The first programming course at my university was in Miranda
10:32	cshell	adu: The problems I've seen are that Java devs don't understand FP enough to leverage it so they try to use Scala like Java and that can make for really bad code
10:32	TimMc	borkdude: The IM client? :-P
10:33	adu	cshell: if you take the unit of granularity to be functions, and analogize them with windows, then OOP is a kind of window manager, and FP is a toolkit, and X11 allows you to mix and match
10:33	cshell	adu: I like Clojure cause it "has a strong opinion on things and forces you down those paths"
10:33	borkdude	TimMc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_(programming_language)
10:34	borkdude	it is similar to Haskell
10:34	adu	borkdude: Miranda users mostly migrated to Haskell
10:35	borkdude	I don't know what the philosophy behind this choice was: maybe filtering out students who weren't up to it
10:35	borkdude	or maybe a didactical reason that FP is indeed easy to learn to a good way to start
10:36	borkdude	it wasn't a very up to date language: where are the libraries for web dev etc
10:36	Hodapp	cshell: Interestingly, OOP as originally described and implemented by Alan Kay ends up being closer to agent-oriented programming or actor model.
10:36	adu	borkdude: what choice?
10:36	borkdude	adu teaching Miranda in the first programming course on university
10:36	adu	Hodapp: the actor model is getting old, the propagator model is the new kid on the block
10:37	borkdude	adu now they migrated to Haskell as well
10:37	adu	propagators++
10:38	borkdude	adu and they don't teach it in the first year anymore
10:38	adu	I think computer science education is crap
10:39	borkdude	all FP academia in the Netherlands seem to be interested in Haskell now, Lisp/Clojure is ignored
10:39	adu	but then again, I don't know from personal experience, since none of the schools I've been to allowed me to take any classes
10:39	gfredericks	oh man
10:40	borkdude	adu ah, your school didn't allow you to take classes?
10:40	adu	borkdude: yes
10:40	borkdude	what kind of school is that?
10:40	adu	I wanted to take compiler construction, and parsing theory, and they said, NO, you have to take intro to java first
10:41	borkdude	adu I guess it's a bootstrapping problem
10:41	adu	well, I bootstrapped outside the system, I've been programming since I was 9 years old
10:42	cljs-newbie	How do I use goog.dom.query - I know pinot e.g but not clear
10:42	cljs-newbie	I am using the browser repl
10:42	cljs-newbie	Is goog.dom.query included in default goog.jar
10:43	TimMc	adu: Yeah, that's rough.
10:45	adu	how different are clojure and clojurescript?
10:45	gfredericks	(defmacro -inc [& rest] `(fn -inc [] ~@rest)) ;; sneeeky
10:46	gfredericks	adu: less different than java and javascript
10:47	borkdude	ecmascript
10:47	adu	borkdude: I prefer to call them oak and livescript
10:47	gfredericks	ecmascript is very different from ecma
10:51	TimMc	gfredericks: Explain that code!
10:53	gfredericks	TimMc: it means wherever you see -inc you don't even know if it's calling a macro or a function
10:55	borkdude	gfredericks whoa dude, you discovered the fixed point operator of macro's :P
10:55	clgv	gfredericks: it's callung the macro
10:55	gfredericks	TimMc: I didn't write it, I'm just trying to understand it
10:55	clgv	*calling
10:55	TimMc	Not buying it. (inc- 1 2 3) expands to (fn -inc [] 1 2 3). What's the deal?
10:56	gfredericks	that's true it should be statically analyzable
10:56	gfredericks	(-inc 1 2 (-inc)) though
10:56	clgv	"-inc" in "(fn -inc ..)" is only for recursive reference and it's included in the name of the java class for that fn
10:56	gfredericks	this is in the core.logic source code
10:57	gfredericks	line 771
10:57	clgv	hmm ok if you inject (-inc) in the macro you get an infinite recursion
10:58	gfredericks	I think maybe most calls to -inc are in the context of macros, so it might still be the case that't's difficult to tell what's going on
10:58	TimMc	Macro-expansion happens first, so any occurrence of (-inc ...) inside another (-inc ...) is also a macro call.
10:58	TimMc	-inc doesn't def anything.
10:59	gfredericks	TimMc: that can't be true
10:59	gfredericks	(-inc 1 2 (-inc)) expands to (fn -inc [] (1 2 (-inc)))
10:59	gfredericks	which should blow the stack
10:59	gfredericks	at runtime
10:59	gfredericks	or maybe (fn -inc [] 1 2 (-inc)) ; either way
10:59	ivan	user=> ((-inc 1 2 (-inc)))
10:59	ivan	StackOverflowError user/eval61/-inc--62 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:3)
11:00	cmajor7	is there a way to use noir's validation (e.g. "vali/on-error", …) with twitter bootstrap forms (e.g. <fieldset class="control-group error">…)? or maybe there is some clojurescript way?
11:00	borkdude	is it possible to contruct a macro which expands to itself?
11:00	gfredericks	borkdude: I think so
11:00	TimMc	borkdude: (defmacro y-do-you-ask [] &form)
11:00	gfredericks	that was easy
11:00	ivan	when you do that you get a StackOverflowError clojure.core/concat/fn--3833 (core.clj:663)
11:01	TimMc	gfredericks: Or not, oops.
11:01	borkdude	TimMc I mean a macro which expands to its definition
11:01	ivan	yeah, that's what I tried
11:01	gfredericks	borkdude: a macro that defs itself?
11:02	gfredericks	a macro that solves the first-cause problem in philosophy?
11:02	borkdude	gfredericks yes
11:02	gfredericks	a quine-macro
11:02	borkdude	gfredericks it would be nice if we could reply to the philosophers: we solved it with a macro
11:02	TimMc	(defmacro it [] `(it))
11:03	gfredericks	TimMc: no it has to def itself not just call itself
11:03	gfredericks	(defmacro it [] ...) should expand to (defmacro it [] ...)
11:03	TimMc	Oh, I thought you wanted (it) to expand to (it).
11:03	gfredericks	you got that earlier with &form
11:04	TimMc	Did I?
11:04	gfredericks	sure
11:04	gfredericks	it blows the stack but that happens necessarily
11:04	augustl	I have a bunch of vectors, how do I turn them all into one "flattened" vector?
11:04	gfredericks	apply concat
11:05	gfredericks	(comp vec (partial apply concat))
11:05	augustl	gfredericks: ah, just found concat, thanks :) getting better and better at navigating the cheat sheet ;)
11:05	TimMc	gfredericks: The form I posted expands to: (do (clojure.core/defn y-do-you-ask ([&form &env] &form)) (. (var y-do-you-ask) (setMacro)) (var y-do-you-ask))
11:05	gfredericks	TimMc: wtf.
11:06	gfredericks	which one?
11:06	borkdude	,(into [] (concat [1 2 3] [4 5 6]))
11:06	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
11:06	TimMc	Oh, that's the defmacro itself. Oops!
11:07	gfredericks	,(reduce (partial apply conj)[1 2 3] [4 5 6])
11:07	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
11:07	TimMc	borkdude: How is (partial into []) different from vec?
11:07	gfredericks	it's 4 characters longer
11:08	gfredericks	(def out-of seq)
11:08	mfex	augustl, ##(reduce into [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8]])
11:08	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]
11:10	TimMc	mfex: Doesnt' work when you have no vectors.
11:10	borkdude	TimMc I guess you could provide an init
11:10	gfredericks	vectors were assumed
11:11	gfredericks	"I have a bunch of vectors" said the vector-bearer
11:11	augustl	I also don't actually have a vector of vectors, I just have some refs to vectors
11:11	borkdude	I guess TimMc means zero vectors instead of "other types"
11:11	TimMc	Yes, but ##(reduce into [])
11:11	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$into
11:11	mfex	TimMc, yes indeed. More importantly don't use concat when you can only use vectors
11:11	borkdude	,(into [] (concat nil))
11:11	clojurebot	[]
11:12	gfredericks	,(into [] (concat))
11:12	clojurebot	[]
11:12	borkdude	(why is there no concatv etc ;))
11:12	TimMc	&(concat (concat (concat) (concat)) (concat) (concat))
11:12	lazybot	⇒ ()
11:13	borkdude	TimMc try reading that line aloud 10 times without making a mistake
11:13	TimMc	gfredericks: OK, now I see how weird -inc is. And I'm going to set fire to this browser tab that has core.logic's source in it. Burn the witch!
11:13	gfredericks	TimMc: don't burn it I'm trying to write condr
11:14	hyPiRion	concatv would essentially just be ##(reduce into [] [[1 2 3] '(4 5 6) #{7 8 9}]) (and sets will be randomly iterated, of course.)
11:14	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
11:15	hyPiRion	Or eventually (reduce conj [] ...)
11:15	borkdude	hyPiRion I know how to write one ;)
11:16	hyPiRion	Then why would you need one? ;)
11:16	borkdude	hyPiRion so I don't need to write it ;)
11:16	hyPiRion	Heh.
11:17	gfredericks	there is _some_ benefit to having _some_ functions in core
11:18	hyPiRion	I just wonder how often concatv would be used.
11:19	gfredericks	,(+ 1 (- (- (+ 337 394) 337) 353))
11:19	clojurebot	42
11:19	hyPiRion	Also, concat is lazy, concatv cannot be. It's kind of a dangerous territory to give them the same name.
11:19	hyPiRion	At least I think so.
11:19	borkdude	hyPiRion map / mapv in clojure 1.4, same thing?
11:19	gfredericks	hyPiRion: map vs mapv?
11:20	hyPiRion	(mapv...?)
11:20	hyPiRion	Oh well, dangit. My point went out the window.
11:21	borkdude	,(clojure-version)
11:21	clojurebot	"1.4.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
11:21	borkdude	,(mapv identity [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
11:21	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$identity>
11:21	borkdude	of course
11:22	gfredericks	,(mapv list [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
11:22	clojurebot	[(1 1 1) (2 2 2) (3 3 3)]
11:22	hyPiRion	That being said though, I'd like to know by name which functions are lazy and which functions who are not.
11:22	borkdude	,(mapv identity (concat [1 2 3] [4 5 6]))
11:22	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
11:23	hyPiRion	##(map inc (range)) vs. ##(mapv inc (range))
11:23	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I'd like to know by name which functions are macros
11:23	lazybot	(map inc (range)) java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
11:23	lazybot	(mapv inc (range)) Execution Timed Out!
11:23	gfredericks	o_O
11:24	borkdude	what other …v functions were added in 1.4?
11:24	TimMc	That's rather startling.
11:24	hyPiRion	That's weird. I thought it would only evaluate the first 5 elements.
11:24	hyPiRion	(And die on the last one)
11:24	borkdude	is there a function that gives all the vars that were added in 1.4?
11:24	gfredericks	,(apropos "v")
11:24	clojurebot	(val vector-of remove-method get-validator derive ...)
11:24	TimMc	borkdude: There can be!
11:24	borkdude	I mean not a function, but an expression
11:26	hyPiRion	Isn't that put in the metadata?
11:26	hyPiRion	(:macro (meta %))
11:26	hyPiRion	,(:macro (meta #'defn))
11:26	clojurebot	true
11:27	TimMc	,(for [v (vals (ns-publics 'clojure.core)) :let [since (:added (meta v))] :when (= since "1.4")] v)
11:27	clojurebot	(#'clojure.core/mapv #'clojure.core/data-readers #'clojure.core/filterv #'clojure.core/default-data-readers #'clojure.core/ex-info ...)
11:28	borkdude	TimMc tnx!
11:28	gfredericks	,(->> (apropos "v" (map str) (filter #(re-matches #"v$")))
11:28	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:28	borkdude	TimMc I guess this expression deserves a tweet on @learnclojure
11:28	gfredericks	,(->> (apropos "v") (map str) (filter #(re-matches #"v$" %)))
11:28	clojurebot	()
11:28	borkdude	so filterv
11:28	TimMc	borkdude: Needs cleanup.
11:28	gfredericks	,(->> (apropos "v") (map str) (filter #(re-matches #".*v$" %)))
11:28	clojurebot	("mapv" "filterv")
11:28	Vinzent	btw, don't you think that ex-info and ex-data are, well, suboptimal?
11:29	TimMc	borkdude: (.sym v) will get the var's name.
11:30	TimMc	,(for [[n v] (ns-publics 'clojure.core) :let [since (:added (meta v))] :when (= since "1.4")] n)
11:30	clojurebot	(mapv data-readers filterv default-data-readers ex-info ...)
11:30	bobry	Is it possible to re-export all functions from the nested namespace in cljs? For instance I have top level namespace -- 'ui', and a bunch of nested namespaces 'ui.dialog', 'ui.button' etc
11:31	TimMc	Vinzent: Their names are for sure.
11:33	borkdude	TimMc are you on twitter btw?
11:34	TimMc	borkdude: Nope.
11:34	TimMc	I don't need credit, though.
11:34	borkdude	do you mind me tweeting it?
11:34	borkdude	:)
11:35	Vinzent	TimMc, yeah - why not just call it 'exception' and make it a map? and why it was included so suddenly (there was a lot of polemics about exceptions before 1.3, IIRC, and it was decided to not include exception's stuff in core)?
11:36	TimMc	Vinzent: I actually haven't followed the exception stuff too closely. It's a mess.
11:36	Vinzent	yeah, unfortunately
11:37	juhu_chapa	Hi all! How do I import javax.mail.Flags.Flag.DELETED?
11:37	borkdude	(import '….)
11:37	TimMc	juhu_chapa: I'm guessing one of those is an inner class?
11:37	borkdude	or in an ns macro: (:import ...)
11:37	borkdude	ah right inner classes… $ right?
11:38	Vinzent	yeah: foo.bar$inner
11:38	TimMc	import Flags$Flag, then you have Flags$Flag/DELETED
11:38	juhu_chapa	TimMc: you are right@!
11:39	TimMc	juhu_chapa: If you're going to deal with a lot of those, there's import-static: https://github.com/baznex/imports/blob/master/src/org/baznex/imports.clj
11:40	juhu_chapa	TimMc: thanks a lot!
11:47	TimMc	juhu_chapa: The rename fn may actually be preferable, so you could do (rename javax.mail.Flags$Flag 'MF) and then use MF/DELETED
11:48	borkdude	,(doc rename)
11:48	clojurebot	Excuse me?
11:49	borkdude	TimMc ah from the link you posted ok
11:51	oskarth1	is there a library for image generation like svgo for golang?
11:51	hyPiRion	Image generation?
11:51	oskarth1	basically typing in what the image should be like
11:51	oskarth1	draw circle and compose different shapes etc
11:52	oskarth1	like overtone but for images, I guess
11:52	oskarth1	https://github.com/ajstarks/svgo that's for golang
11:52	Vinzent	oskarth1, I have a link for such project in my followed repos, but github is down, so I can't give it to you.
11:53	mea	yes
11:53	mea	you want to use Quil
11:53	oskarth1	ah too bad
11:53	TimMc	github WORKSFORME
11:53	mea	oskarth1 - https://github.com/quil/quil
11:53	oskarth1	mea: ah, looks neat - thanks!
11:53	Hodapp	There are Clojure bindings for Processing.
11:53	Vinzent	oh, it's already works, yeah. That's the project I was talking about: https://github.com/mikera/clisk
11:54	Hodapp	Incanter maybe?
11:54	oskarth1	Vinzent: will have a look at that too, thanks
11:54	oskarth1	I think incanter is more about graphs and tables, no?
11:54	mea	oskarth1: no problem. I am actually using that right now so funny you asked for something so specific
11:54	hyPiRion	Yeah, Incanter is basically R for Clojure.
11:54	oskarth1	ha
11:54	oskarth1	mea: what are you using it for?
11:55	gfredericks	writing macroexpand-all is hard
11:55	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Are you allowed to use macroexpand-1?
11:56	mfex	gfredericks, clojure.walk/macroexpand-all?
11:57	mea	oskarth1: I am using it for a summer research gig. We built a robot with a projector and camera and so I'm using Quil to build interactive projections
11:58	gfredericks	mfex: I'm writing a version that only expands macros from clojure.core.logic :)
11:59	mfex	gfredericks, adding a filter to the source of clojure.walk/macroexpand-all should work
11:59	samaaron	Mea: you must email me with a description of your Quil work
11:59	samaaron	I'd love to hear about it
12:00	mea	samaaron: when I am done with it, I'll put it up on github :)
12:00	gfredericks	mfex: yeah I think I got it working
12:00	gfredericks	a bit more involved than just a filter, but not too bad
12:01	samaaron	Be sure to ping me when you do
12:02	samaaron	Also please email any images that look interesting so I can tweet them from the quil account @quilist
12:02	samaaron	Quil is more fun when you share the love
12:02	mea	haha, I agree. I am just learning clojure so the code isn't going to be spectacular, but the end result should be neat
12:03	mea	it is basically a light graffiti project
12:03	mea	it projects an mspaint like interface and then you can draw with it
12:03	mea	but hey! it's in Quil!
12:03	samaaron	Sounds awesome
12:03	Hodapp	ooh, so Quil uses Processing too?
12:04	samaaron	Seriously
12:04	samaaron	I need screenshots!
12:05	samaaron	Hodapp: yup, processing is under the good
12:05	samaaron	Hood, silly Android keyboard
12:06	mea	samaaron: will do. you'll have them by Thursday since that's when I need to present it haha
12:06	adu	screenshots?
12:06	antares_	travis-ci.org now supports testing against multiple JDKs: http://about.travis-ci.org/blog/support_for_multiple_jdks/. Please test your libraries against OpenJDK 7 ;)
12:08	mea	samaaron: quick question though - key-pressed? is just a boolean right? it doesn't work like the keyPressed() processing function
12:10	gtrak	how do I get docs for a ns from the repl?
12:11	oskarth1	mea: cool :)
12:23	technomancy	mea: we're having a quil night on Thursday too; cool
12:23	mea	technomancy: here on #clojure?
12:24	technomancy	no, at the seattle group
12:24	technomancy	http://seajure.github.com
12:25	mea	too bad I'm in NY
12:25	mea	heh
12:28	gfredericks	NY is the seattle of NY
12:28	leku	uh what?
12:29	mea	NY is the capital of the world, according to idiots and marketers
12:29	leku	it might as well be
12:30	leku	i'm not sure if I can think of a more important city for AMerican's besides D.C.
12:30	mea	SF
12:30	leku	?
12:30	mea	San Francisco, daddy-o
12:30	leku	last I checked SF didn't host 2 stock exchanges
12:31	antares_	politically, SF is not too important. Chicago?
12:31	leku	Chicago is an important city but probably not more important than NYC
12:31	gfredericks	SF is the DC of Chicago
12:31	leku	what hte fuck gfred
12:32	leku	lol
12:32	antares_	gfredericks: haha
12:32	technomancy	Omaha is the new black.
12:32	leku	ND is the new SF!
12:32	leku	HUZZAH
12:32	cgag	ND?
12:32	clojurebot	sharing code between client and server is not as simple or great as it sounds: http://blog.ianbicking.org/2011/03/30/js-on-server-and-client-is-not-a-big-deal/
12:33	leku	north dakota
12:33	leku	lots of oil mining going on now
12:33	leku	or drilling or wahtever you call it, frack mining
12:33	gfredericks	fracking is the new gold rush?
12:33	leku	yep
12:34	oskarth1	how do I check the doc of say, defproject (lein) by using (doc …)?
12:35	antares_	oskarth1: given that defproject is referred to in the current namespace, (doc defproject)
12:35	antares_	otherwise, you need to require the namespace defproject comes from and (doc leiningen.some.ns/defproject)
12:35	technomancy	oskarth: good question. unfortunately the docstring of defproject is more or less useless; `lein help sample` is much more enlightening.
12:36	technomancy	oskarth: you bring up a good point; I'll improve the docstring.
12:36	oskarth	technomancy: cool and thanks!
12:36	leku	technomancy you work on lein?
12:36	technomancy	leku: yeah
12:36	leku	nice
12:36	leku	well done
12:37	mea	lots of big hitters in here
12:37	oskarth	indeed, it's really really good
12:37	technomancy	thanks
12:37	leku	I'm glad I discovered clojure and all these great tools
12:37	leku	I was about to start using CL and some of their frameworks
12:37	leku	but they seem pretty old/hobbled together
12:38	technomancy	quicklisp is going in the right direction, but it might be too little too late
12:38	leku	cool
12:39	mea	leku: yeah, clojure is awesome. I've only been using it for a few days, but its so powerful
12:39	leku	yeah quicklisp seems likea nice repos of unorganized stuff
12:39	leku	there are no package descriptions or anything
12:39	technomancy	well that's been a problem with Leiningen too historically
12:39	technomancy	people don't always include relevant metadata
12:39	leku	hm
12:40	leku	mea: agreed..really looking forward to doing live coding
12:40	leku	clojure+live coding in repl+heroku=win
12:41	adu	I've been using clojure for about an hour
12:41	leku	hah
12:41	adu	I like it
12:41	leku	have you used other Lisps?
12:41	adu	leku: yes, mostly schemes
12:41	leku	k
12:41	adu	also, I wrote a scheme
12:41	leku	heh
12:47	adu	so
12:47	adu	is it possible to write a server-side app with mixed languages? like Groovy/Clojure?
12:48	xclite	adu: why wouldn't it be?
12:49	adu	well, I don't know
12:49	DaoWen	adu: you could write a server-side app mixing whatever languages you want (they don't even need to be JVM-based)---it's just a question of how hard the interop will be
12:50	technomancy	supposedly there's a groovy plugin for leiningen: https://github.com/kurtharriger/lein-groovyc
12:50	adu	well, I'm thinking job-wise
12:50	adu	my boss is a stickler for JVM
12:51	glitch99	bahh - I know this exists but does anyone know the function that takes two arrays and zips it into an array of pairs?
12:51	adu	zipmap?
12:51	glitch99	without it being a map preferably
12:51	Bronsa	seq the map
12:51	dnolen	glitch99: (map vector v1 v2)
12:52	dnolen	,(map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
12:52	clojurebot	([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
12:52	S11001001	Bronsa: dup keys
12:52	glitch99	AH
12:52	Bronsa	oh, right
12:52	dnolen	adu: quite few people in this IRC making a living writing server side Clojure apps.
12:52	glitch99	Thanks all!
12:53	adu	dnolen: sounds promising, I'll let my boss know :)
12:54	dnolen	adu: you'll recognize some names here - http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Clojure+Success+Stories, Twitter uses it too.
12:55	leku	adu: what about clojurescript?
12:55	ejackson	dnolen: what is this twitter of which you speak, wise man ?
12:55	adu	leku: what about it?
12:55	leku	instead of groovy
12:56	leku	nm i guess i dont know much about groovy
12:56	adu	i thought clojurescript was client-side
12:56	adu	groovy compiles to JVM
12:56	leku	k
12:57	leku	i wonder what AKamai is using clojure for
12:57	hiredman	they may not be using it anymore
12:57	leku	ah
12:57	hiredman	they acquired someone that was
12:58	leku	there are a lotof MIT nerds at AKAM, wouldn't be surprised if they were i guess
12:59	adu	ooo GSoC
12:59	adu	Typed Clojure?
13:01	solussd	is there an issue with using macros for reader literals?
13:01	solussd	I get arity exceptions
13:02	dnolen	adu: yeah Ambrose Bonnaire-Sargeant is working on that. Neat stuff.
13:02	adu	I'm quite fond of Typed Racket, will it be anything like that?
13:03	dnolen	adu: very much inspired by Typed Racket
13:03	adu	:)
13:04	S11001001	akamai is still using clojure, according to the last boston clojure, but it's definitely not a product of akamai's mitness, still all comes from that acquisition
13:04	TimMc	hiredman: The acquisition (Velocitude, I think?) is no more, as far as I know... but they're still using it somewhere.
13:04	S11001001	as TimMc says, yes, Velocitude
13:04	S11001001	(I worked there)
13:04	leku	ahh ok s11
13:04	TimMc	Velocitude isn't completely dead?
13:04	leku	what did they do?
13:04	S11001001	I don't know about velocitude, but the team expanded into other clojure projects
13:05	TimMc	leku: Something about proxying sites for mobile browsers, I think.
13:05	S11001001	yep
13:05	leku	hmm
13:05	TimMc	A friend of mine at Akamai said it didn't really fit Akamai's overall business strategy.
13:05	leku	so they nixed it?
13:06	TimMc	Not sure. Sounds like it's not exactly a growing team, though.
13:06	mea	Question: how can I import processing libs (like .jars) into quil?
13:09	dnolen	mea: if using lein, best to declare them as dependencies in your project.clj, if not possible you can drop them in a folder and add that folder to your :extra-classpaths project.clj option. technomancy might have more advice.
13:10	mea	mea: if I declare them in project.clj, do I need to put them in a specific folder
13:10	gfredericks	dnolen: the function-that-returns-random-goal implementation of condr fails to always return a random leaf of the search tree, since if the randomnly selected goal fails the whole search fails instead of trying the next thing
13:11	dnolen	mea: you can't just declare jars, they need to be something that's available via a maven repository (Central, Clojars etc).
13:12	dnolen	gfredericks: read up on condu
13:12	mea	dnolen: oh, so if I am using Processing / Java jars, I ought to use the :extra-classpaths option then eh?
13:12	gfredericks	dnolen: yessir
13:12	dnolen	gfredericks: condu is cut + succeed once
13:13	sergey	hello
13:13	dnolen	mea: if you have a bunch of jars and their are not available via some Maven repository, yes then manage them yourself.
13:13	mea	dnolen: okay, excellent. thank you
13:13	sergey	is there any real world tutorial about clojure where something is created during it?
13:14	technomancy	actually :extra-classpath-dirs is deprecated
13:14	technomancy	mea: first thing to do is report a bug with whoever has jars they're not putting in a repository, because that's just crazy
13:14	technomancy	then you can use the lein-localrepo plugin
13:14	technomancy	sergey: the peepcode screencast does that
13:15	technomancy	disclaimer: I'm the author
13:15	dnolen	technomancy: probably not going to happen among the Processing community. Something like :extra-classpath-dirs still useful.
13:15	dnolen	technomancy: and what's the lein2 way of dealing with checkouts dir?
13:15	technomancy	dnolen: I don't think anything's changed about checkouts
13:15	technomancy	at least not intentionally
13:16	sergey	technomancy, thanks, I'll try peepcode screencasts, do you know any other sources?
13:16	solussd	hmm, even the simplest macro used as a 'reader literal' throws an artily exception, e.g. (defmacro blah [x] x) with data_readers.clj containing {stuff/blah my project.stuff/blah} running #blah "hi" throws an arty exception.
13:16	solussd	*arity. stupid lion autocorrect
13:16	technomancy	anyway I'd still report bugs even if they're likely to be ignored
13:16	technomancy	hopefully the cumulative effect over time will sink in and help them see the light
13:16	mea	hhaha
13:17	raph_amiard	is there an easy way to reset a clojure session in swank-clojure ?
13:17	TimMc	solussd: What would it mean to use a macro that way?
13:17	solussd	raph_amiard: M-x slime-disconnect followed by clojure-jack-in?
13:18	solussd	TimMc: nothing. :) I have this macro I'm trying to use as a reader literal: (defmacro dbg [x] `(let [x# ~x] (println "dbg:" '~x "=" (with-out-str (pr x#))) x#))
13:19	solussd	TimMc: it's the arity exception that confuses me. :/
13:20	nDuff	Hrm; I'm having trouble avoiding reflection in calling a variadic Java method: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10901756
13:21	S11001001	I don't think into-array gets inferred
13:21	gfredericks	monads are hard
13:21	S11001001	^"[java.lang.String;" (into-array...
13:21	S11001001	nDuff
13:23	S11001001	theoretically you could add an :inline for into-array that DTRT for a compile-time-known element type arg
13:29	TimMc	solussd: Macros take two extra args at the front: &form and &env
13:30	solussd	TimMc: so no way to use them with read literals then, huh. :(
13:30	antares_	nDuff: hint it as ^strings?
13:32	TimMc	solussd: Extract the guts as a fn (to use for literal parsing) and call that fn from the macro.
13:34	solussd	TimMc: thanks
13:36	cgag	scheme
13:36	cgag	woops
13:36	adu	what?
13:36	clojurebot	what is wrong with you
13:40	sergey	exit
13:40	sergey	endsession
13:40	S11001001	xb
13:40	duck1123	there is no leaving #clojure
13:43	gfredericks	"sudo exit" and then type in your password
13:45	eighty	what's the idiomatic way to read a file in my project's dev/ folder?
13:45	eighty	i know there's a good way to do this :)
13:45	S11001001	what dev/?
13:45	eighty	just a folder in my project
13:45	eighty	S11001001: i just want to read in dev/foo.txt
13:46	S11001001	what about when your code's in a jar?
13:47	antares_	eighty: clojure.java.io/resource if it happens to be on the classpath
13:47	antares_	otherwise, clojure.java.io/file + slurp should be sufficient
13:47	antares_	(/file will accept and resolve relative paths)
13:48	eighty	antares_: there it is. exactly. thanks man.
13:48	antares_	eighty: my bad, /resource also will require calling clojure.core/slurp on it
13:48	eighty	right right
13:48	eighty	k
13:57	oskarth	"lein cljsbuild once" => "That's not a task." using lein-cljsbuild sample simple project. Any ideas?
14:00	technomancy	looks like you need to make sure the plugin is installed right
14:01	oskarth	yeah right, does lein deps not install plugins?
14:02	technomancy	it does as long as they're declared right
14:06	adu	what does ^: mean?
14:07	TimMc	adu: ^ attaches metadata to forms for the compiler; the ^:foo form is shorthand for ^{:foo true}
14:07	adu	oh
14:08	raek	does anyone know what the recommended way to deref a Lamina async result with a timeout is?
14:12	raek	are you supposed to use read-channel* or is it an internal function? (it has no docstring)
14:13	nDuff	antares_: "Unable to resolve classname: strings"
14:13	nDuff	S11001001: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: [java/lang/String;
14:13	S11001001	maybe an l in there
14:14	S11001001	just do (class (into-array String []))
14:14	S11001001	see what it prints
14:14	nDuff	^"[Ljava.lang.String;" does indeed do the trick
14:14	nDuff	heh.
14:15	antares_	nDuff: yeah, that :)
14:15	nDuff	S11001001: do you want the credit on StackOverflow, or shall I answer it myself?
14:15	S11001001	answer it yourself
14:16	S11001001	though a better answer would be for you to write a variant of into-array with that :inline I mentioned :)
14:19	gfredericks	for some reason hacking together a condr with code I don't understand gives me results I don't understand :)
14:20	nDuff	S11001001: Heh. I can find some minimal documentation on definline, which clearly is implemented _using_ :inline, but I'm having trouble googling up a description of the semantics of :inline proper.
14:20	antares_	technomancy: heroku still runs OpenJDK 6, correct?
14:20	dnolen	gfredericks: gist?
14:20	S11001001	sort of like http://xach.com/clhs?q=define-compiler-macro
14:21	technomancy	antares_: that's currently the default; going to upgrade soon.
14:21	gfredericks	dnolen: sure; I macroexpanded a conde and tried to write code that produced a similar structure but at runtime
14:21	technomancy	you can upgrade with buildpacks, but we haven't stitched those together so they compose quite yet
14:21	dnolen	gfredericks: why?
14:21	dnolen	gfredericks: you didn't use condo?
14:21	dnolen	gfredericks: grr, I mean condu
14:22	leku	what the heck are all tehse condo/condus?
14:22	dnolen	leku: see The Reasoned Schemer
14:22	leku	rgr
14:23	leku	is it something I have to know right now
14:23	S11001001	nDuff: the best way to figure it out is to read core.clj; there are tons of :inline usage examples there
14:23	leku	to begin using clojure effectively?
14:24	dnolen	leku: no
14:24	dnolen	leku: it's a library for doing relational programming, not necessary in the slightest.
14:24	gfredericks	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/2876680
14:24	gfredericks	included example usage and unexpected behavior
14:25	dnolen	gfredericks: don't have time to look to closely, use condu
14:26	dnolen	gfredericks: condu is like conde, but once a goal succeeds it stops, and that goal can only succeed once which sounds like what you want.
14:26	gfredericks	dnolen: I guess I don't understand how it helps. What I ultimately want is something like conde except instead of picking results from each clause round-robin, it picks them at random
14:26	dnolen	gfredericks: so shuffle the goals, and try them with condu, once one succeeds it'll stop.
14:26	gfredericks	dnolen: and in particular the randomness should be runtime randomness, so not just a conde-like macro that shuffles the clauses
14:27	dnolen	gfredericks: reshuffle the goals on every run.
14:27	XPherior	ibdknox: You alive?
14:27	gfredericks	don't you have to do it at compile time to do condu? If you `(condu ~@(shuffle clauses)), that's compile time
14:27	leku	wish i understood this code
14:28	gfredericks	leku: my gist? I wish I understood it too :)
14:28	leku	ya
14:28	leku	defrel +o ^:index x ^:index y ^:index z
14:28	leku	?
14:28	dnolen	leku: familiar with Prolog.
14:28	S11001001	in fact, here's my most general advice for all clojurians
14:28	S11001001	read core.clj instead of the docs generated from it
14:29	dnolen	gfredericks: no you don't have to do it compile time.
14:29	dnolen	leku: I mean that as a question.
14:29	DaoWen	leku: they're doing logic programming with core.logic
14:29	leku	nope
14:29	leku	ok
14:29	gfredericks	dnolen: how do you vary the args to a macro at runtime?
14:29	gfredericks	eval?
14:29	clojurebot	eval is sometimes useful - but only sometimes
14:30	gfredericks	oh hm
14:30	dnolen	gfredericks: (defn try [clauses] (condu (first clauses) (try (rest clauses)))
14:30	dnolen	gfredericks: where clauses has been shuffled.
14:30	gfredericks	dnolen: k, will go think that over -- thanks!
14:32	TimMc	Hmm. Why was arity-based dispatch in CLJS a problem? arguments.length seems to give the arity-of-use just fine...
14:33	dnolen	TimMc: slow
14:33	TimMc	OK. :-)
14:33	dnolen	TimMc: but we do that too when fns are used higher order.
14:36	adu	this is my first time using lein
14:36	adu	http://paste.lisp.org/display/129852
14:36	adu	what does that mean?
14:37	adamspgh	adu: looks like you've got an old "lein" script.
14:37	TimMc	Oof, what's bringing in an old beta release of Clojure?
14:38	adamspgh	it appears to be trying to pull in 1.2.0-beta !?
14:38	adu	adamspgh: hmm I just download it 5 mins ago
14:38	TimMc	Oh, yep: "Downloading Leiningen now"
14:38	TimMc	adu: From Github? On the right branch?
14:38	adu	TimMc: from macports
14:38	adamspgh	the latest release of clojure is 1.4.0, which lein 2.pre will pull in.
14:38	adamspgh	ah.
14:38	adamspgh	grab lien from github
14:38	adu	where is that?
14:38	adamspgh	or lein, even ! (oops)
14:39	TimMc	$google lein github
14:39	lazybot	[technomancy/leiningen · GitHub] https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
14:39	adamspgh	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
14:39	adu	git://github.com/technomancy/leiningen.git?
14:39	clojurebot	eg, https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging is the new version of clojure.contrib.logging
14:39	TimMc	Read the README.
14:41	technomancy	macports is not to be trusted
14:41	TimMc	technomancy: Which package systems are to be trusted with lein?
14:41	technomancy	there's only one package manager that's trustworthy at all.
14:42	adu	ok trying again with the github version
14:42	technomancy	well, actually maybe nix too, though the only reason you can trust nix is that you know you can roll back any trouble it causes by rewinding time =)
14:43	S11001001	wouldn't trust any
14:43	technomancy	TimMc: homebrew seems OK regarding lein, but it's got other issues
14:44	technomancy	leiningen doesn't exactly stretch the limits of what a package manager does; it's pretty hard to screw up
14:45	adu	ok, this is what I get with the latest lein: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129853
14:46	adu	ok perhaps I should also mention that I'm trying to follow http://mmcgrana.github.com/2010/07/develop-deploy-clojure-web-applications.html
14:46	TimMc	Pretty sure that's not the latest lein.
14:46	TimMc	Does `which lein` show you the path you expect?
14:46	hiredman	your project.clj is specifying a bogus version for clojure and contrib
14:46	adu	TimMc: yes
14:47	adu	hiredman: so I'm following the wrong tutorial
14:47	hiredman	~blog
14:47	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
14:47	TimMc	Oh, ew. It's definitely the tutorial's fault.
14:47	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
14:47	clojurebot	you cut me deep, man.
14:47	hiredman	~blog post
14:47	clojurebot	blogs are never to be trusted
14:48	adu	are these better? http://learn-clojure.com/clojure_tutorials.html
14:48	S11001001	true clojurebot
14:48	TimMc	I'm kind of intrigued that the beta1 isn't still available.
14:48	dnolen	adu: Clojure is a rapidly changing ecosystem, anything with a publish date older than 1 year is suspect.
14:48	adu	ok
14:48	XPherior	Is there any reason that JSON would render inside HTML markup if the document type is application/json?
14:49	dnolen	adu: I recommend the new O'Reilly book. most online resources that aren't pure reference just aren't up to date.
14:56	adu	I think (.) was the most difficult syntax to wrap my head around
14:57	TimMc	XPherior: That question didn't make much sense.
14:59	pbostrom	adu: the noir framework is a decent place to get started with web apps, it's a nice wrapper around ring, compojure, and hiccup, which your old blog post uses: http://webnoir.org/
14:59	adu	pbostrom: I'll take a look
15:00	dwierenga	can someone help me out with this? i'm not sure what it's complaining about: http://pastebin.com/9GeQ359E
15:01	TimMc	dwierenga: You'll want to get an actual stack trace pinpointing where the error occurred.
15:01	dwierenga	it should be a very simple "run this query, dump the result set to a CSV file"
15:01	amalloy	spit wants a string, not a data structure
15:01	amalloy	i think
15:02	dwierenga	TimMc: i have no idea how to interpret those stack traces :/
15:02	amalloy	dwierenga: that's no reason to not provide them when you ask for help. presumably someone in this world can read them
15:03	TimMc	dwierenga: Skim until you find your own files, then see what line numbers are responsible (and what the next thing in the stack was.)
15:03	adu	sweet
15:03	adu	noir worked first time!
15:03	dwierenga	amalloy: oh.. i didn't realize he was asking to see them, i read it as I should go read it
15:03	hiredman	amalloy: nah, spit takes whatever
15:03	adu	noir++
15:04	amalloy	(inc noir)
15:04	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:04	hiredman	although, doesn't write-csv write to a csv file? why would you use that with spit?
15:05	dwierenga	hiredman: the description of write-csv is "Given a sequence of sequences of strings, returns a string of that table
15:05	oskarth	following lein-cljs simple tutorial. How come a clojurescript hello world is like 10k LOCs generated and is there any way to reduce it by a couple of magnitudes?
15:05	TimMc	dwierenga: That too, actually. They're not fun to read, but you can figure them out without too much work.
15:05	dwierenga	in CSV format, with all appropriate quoting and escaping.
15:06	hiredman	dwierenga: ok
15:06	TimMc	oskarth: Because everything is included when you don't turn on optimizations.
15:06	amalloy	dwierenga: and are you giving it a sequence of sequences of strings? it looks to me like you're giving it a vector of a result-set
15:06	hiredman	dwierenga: have you looked a the example usage from the readme of data.csv?
15:07	oskarth	TimMc: I tried some optimizations (assuming you mean in the project.clj file) but it didn't seem to make that much of a difference. Is there some other way to minify it down a reasonable size?
15:07	dnolen	oskarth: that's the whole point of advanced compilation. Though don't expect anything tiny - the code generated by CLJS is usually competitive in size with jQuery.
15:07	oskarth	maybe I used the wrong type hints
15:07	oskarth	ok I see
15:07	dwierenga	amalloy: i have no idea! that's what i'm asking (i think..)
15:08	oskarth	thanks
15:08	dwierenga	hiredman: i'm not sure where i'd find the readme of data.csv??
15:08	lazybot	dwierenga: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
15:08	hiredman	~google clojure.data.csv
15:08	clojurebot	First, out of 6370 results is:
15:08	clojurebot	clojure/data.csv · GitHub
15:08	clojurebot	https://github.com/clojure/data.csv
15:09	dwierenga	hiredman: i'm not using that, i'm using https://github.com/davidsantiago/clojure-csv
15:09	dnolen	oskarth: that said, when you generate tons of code (which tends to happen when using macros) advanced compilation is close to magic.
15:10	dnolen	oskarth: instead of 600k of JS, you still get something around or smaller than jQuery.
15:10	oskarth	dnolen: yeah, that's true. Looking forward to you coming to HS btw!
15:10	oskarth	yeah
15:10	dwierenga	should i use clojure/data.csv instead?
15:10	hiredman	shrug
15:10	dnolen	oskarth: looking forward to it as well!
15:22	nDuff	Is it desired behavior that I have to have a class imported into the local namespace to be able to use a function from a different namespace tagged as returning that type?
15:23	TimMc	nDuff: What version of Clojure?
15:23	nDuff	TimMc: 1.4.0
15:23	TimMc	And ew, that sounds annoying.
15:23	nDuff	(and, yes; it can be worked around by fully-qualifying the class names, but ugh)
15:26	XPherior	I've seen this compiler error pop up in several different cases on Google. "No matching field found: getRoot for class clojure.lang.Var" Is this common for contrib libraries?
15:27	borkdude	XPherior it happens when you define var without a root binding and then get its value
15:28	adu	so clojure's defn works like scheme's define with case-lambda?
15:29	borkdude	adu yes, with different syntax
15:30	XPherior	borkdude: Hm, alright.
15:30	adu	borkdude: of course
15:31	borkdude	XPherior well no, actually that doesn't happen
15:31	amalloy	borkdude, XPherior: not correct. it happens when you run code AOT-compiled against one versino of clojure (usually contrib) against a different version
15:31	borkdude	XPherior I don't know then
15:31	borkdude	amalloy ok
15:32	XPherior	borkdude: Ever seen it in this context? api.server=> (use 'clojure.contrib.sql)
15:32	XPherior	IllegalArgumentException No matching field found: getRoot for class clojure.lang.Var clojure.lang.Reflector.getInstanceField (Reflector.java:271)
15:32	mrtentje	Is there a way with webnoir to hold a map or list or sequence of all active sessions?
15:37	TimMc	XPherior: The first problem is that you are using old monolithic contrib, which is a bad start already.
15:37	TimMc	That means you're also using an old version of clojure.
15:39	XPherior	TimMc: Using Clojure 1.4
15:39	XPherior	TimMc: Can't find the new smaller SQL library though
15:40	XPherior	Oh duh! I could just use Korma
15:40	pbostrom_	mrtentje: noir will let you access the session of each request, but you would have to manage the data structure yourself
15:42	TimMc	XPherior: clojure.java.jdbc?
15:42	TimMc	Monolithic contrib was written against 1.2 and earlier.
15:44	XPherior	TimMc: Korma looks like it'll do. Thank you for the information!"
15:47	pbostrom_	mrtentje_: you can do something like (noir.cookies/get "ring-session") on each request and add it to your data structure
16:09	oskarth	is it possible to get clojuredocs examples via something like (doc fn)? would be really useful
16:10	Iceland_jack	↑ second that
16:10	dakrone	oskarth: lein2's repl has (cdoc ...)
16:10	dakrone	to retrieve clojuredocs examples
16:10	oskarth	dakrone: nice! thanks, that's reason enough to upgrade :)
16:11	hyPiRion	lein2 also contain (source ...), which I find rather satisfying.
16:12	oskarth	hyPiRion: I think that's in clojure.repl already
16:12	oskarth	maybe it's different, don't know
16:15	hyPiRion	Looks similar, yes.
16:17	technomancy	I think lein repl has some magic to allow it to be invoked from any ns
16:24	pepijndevos	Does clojure-py does some automatic pushing and popping for bytecode ops?
16:24	Raynes	Man, clojure-py is the best thing ever. I wish I had less trouble figuring it out.
16:24	augustl	how do you do private defs, like defn-?
16:25	tbaldridge	@pepijndevos explain?
16:26	Raynes	pepijndevos: If you're ever bored and looking for a project to do for someone called Raynes, rewrite https://github.com/Raynes/refh in clojure-py. For bonus points, write a refheap client library in it first, but if you're willing to give those points up you can just use https://github.com/aburdette/pyheap
16:26	Raynes	The bonus points are redeemable for two weeks worth of ass kissing and praise.
16:28	technomancy	two weeks??
16:28	lazybot	technomancy: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
16:30	emezeske	augustl: I believe (defn- ...) is short for (defn ^:private ...)
16:30	emezeske	augustl: So for def it would be (def ^:private ...)
16:31	neotyk	is there a lein-chrome-ext, similar to lein-gnome?
16:31	technomancy	neotyk: not afaik. I think people have tried using cljs to write conkeror extensions, but I don't think anyone's gotten it working.
16:32	augustl	emezeske: ah, I'll look that up, thanks
16:33	augustl	what's a good place to look up stuff like that? I see (def ^:private ..) and wonder what the ^ is doing. Is there a full list of all the syntax somewhere?
16:33	augustl	aaand just found it in the cheat sheet, nvm :)
16:33	emezeske	augustl: also, check the docs for def: http://clojure.org/special_forms
16:34	emezeske	augustl: In general, the ^ reader macro sets metadata for the following form AFAIK
16:34	neotyk	technomancy: chrome extension is a bit complex
16:34	augustl	emezeske: thanks
16:42	borkdude	neotyk how was euroclojure?
16:42	borkdude	neotyk and how did your presentation go?
16:43	neotyk	borkdude: euroclojure was great :)
16:43	neotyk	borkdude: but I was stressed by presenting in front of it, a lot
16:44	borkdude	neotyk did laser beams come out of rich's eyes?
16:44	neotyk	borkdude: don't think I made good advertising for http.async.client
16:46	borkdude	neotyk did you stick with the emacs approach?
16:46	neotyk	borkdude: nah, but it was very interesting to hear rich
16:46	neotyk	borkdude: sure, emacs all the way
16:48	borkdude	neotyk I'll be awaiting the video's then from euroclojure
16:49	neotyk	borkdude: there will be so much butter to watch :D
16:49	borkdude	butter?
16:49	neotyk	s/butter/better/
16:50	borkdude	better than what?
16:50	neotyk	than my preso
16:50	borkdude	neotyk at least you went on stage at the first euroclojure, not many people can say that ;)
16:51	neotyk	borkdude: true that
17:21	mea	would anyone find this idea helpful: a clojure script that extracts jars and lists the names of the contained .class files and then lists them as imports in core.clj
17:21	mea	or perhaps I am just importing in a foolish way
17:22	technomancy	mea: slamhound sorta does that
17:24	mea	technomancy: so it automatically detects what libraries are missing?
17:24	mea	missing / needed
17:24	technomancy	mea: no, it just fixes your ns form assuming your classpath is already correct
17:24	mea	okay
17:25	mea	that is actually what I needed thanks
17:25	mea	i think i'll code up my idea anyway for practice :)
17:25	amalloy	mea: isn't that just like... jar tf $JAR \| perl "something or other"?
17:25	amalloy	i would hesitate to write it in clojure; it's not really our wheelhouse
17:26	technomancy	we have a wheelhouse?
17:38	jcrossley3	seancorfield: how would you feel about making clojure.java.jdbc/transaction* dynamically rebindable?
17:50	seancorfield	jcrossley3: i'm not in favor of dynamic binding - what's the use case you have in mind?
17:52	jcrossley3	seancorfield: XA managed transactions; having a TransactionManager coordinate multiple resources in a single transaction. to do that, no resource can setAutoCommit, or commit, or rollback. only the manager can do that.
17:53	seancorfield	since transaction is just a thin macro wrapper for transaction*, why not directly use a different function based on the XA stuff?
17:53	jcrossley3	everything will just work if i can rebind transaction* to simply call (func) :)
17:53	jcrossley3	seancorfield: i'm open to that, but i'm unclear exactly what you mean.
17:54	seancorfield	clojure/core indicated they would prefer an API on c.j.jdbc that allowed functions / values to be passed into functions rather than relying on dynamic binding
17:54	seancorfield	perhaps a with-transaction construct that allowed you to pass a transaction management function? (which could default to the same current implementation)
17:55	technomancy	seancorfield: have you looked into HStore at all?
17:56	seancorfield	technomancy: i have not - URL?
17:56	technomancy	https://postgres.heroku.com/blog/past/2012/3/14/introducing_keyvalue_data_storage_in_heroku_postgres/
17:56	jcrossley3	seancorfield: the only problem i see with that is existing libs built on core.jdbc, e.g. clojureql and korma.
17:56	technomancy	I'm playing around with it and it's quite nice, but a bit rough around the edges to use with clojure.java.jdbc
17:56	technomancy	but that may just be because the regular JDBC driver is not very good
17:57	hiredman	jcrossley3: it is unlikely that korma has seen any large scale use
17:57	jcrossley3	hiredman: define "large scale" relative to clojure sql libs. :)
17:59	oskarth	what's a good way to generate / update images with quil on a web page?
18:00	hiredman	jcrossley3: it is unlikely to be used anywhere with large amounts of data, and it is unlikely that any large clojure projects use it (simply based on timing)
18:01	hiredman	I could be wrong
18:01	jcrossley3	hiredman: do you think there are any heavily used clojure jdbc/sql libs?
18:02	hiredman	we use java.jdbc at work
18:02	hiredman	but we don't keep that much data in sql regardless
18:02	seancorfield	even so, ibdknox has already expressed interest in switching korma to use the new as-yet-undesigned function api to c.j.jdbc so it would adapt to the new transaction machinery pretty quickly i suspect
18:03	muhoo	is there a quick hack using proxy to get access to a "protected" method of a java class?
18:03	muhoo	seems like there might be, but i have no java-fu
18:03	augustl	is ring.middleware.reload/wrap-reload from ring-devel recursive? Or do I have to manually add all the folders? It defaults to "src", but my code is in src/*/.clj
18:03	seancorfield	then users of korma could work with XA managed transactions by whatever API korma exposed on top of the new c.j.jdbc ... make sense?
18:04	weavejester	augustl: It's recursive
18:04	augustl	weavejester: I've never gotten it to work for some reason..
18:04	augustl	I add it immediately after my main handler, but it doesn't seem to pick up the changes I make
18:04	weavejester	augustl: Is your main handler referenced as a var?
18:05	jcrossley3	seancorfield: it makes sense, but i would prefer to allow existing apps to "just work" if at all possible.
18:05	weavejester	augustl: You need to pass your final handler to the adapter as a var, otherwise when you reload your source code, it won't get the new changes.
18:05	hiredman	jcrossley3: you can always redef transaction*
18:05	augustl	weavejester: I have a server.clj where I launch a ring.adapter.jetty/run-jetty. The app is just a def in the same file
18:06	augustl	weavejester: I see
18:06	jcrossley3	hiredman: i'm kinda scared to, since it would affect all threads, and i only want to affect the one invovled with the xa tx.
18:07	weavejester	augustl: The lein-ring plugin will do wrap-reload for you, by the way.
18:07	hiredman	jcrossley3: you can redef it to using a binding
18:07	augustl	weavejester: ah, that's useful
18:07	jcrossley3	hiredman: point me to an example?
18:08	hiredman	uh, something like (ns foo.bar) … (in-ns 'clojure.java.jdbc.internal) (def ^:dynamic transaction** transaction) (def transaction [& args] (apply transaction** args)) (in-ns 'foo.bar) …
18:09	hiredman	reach in a monkey patch it
18:09	hiredman	and
18:10	jcrossley3	i'll study on that for a temp solution, hiredman, thanks
18:11	bbloom	dnolen: any objection to a whitespace cleanup patch? theres a bunch of files with tabs mixed in & it's bothering me ever so slightly :-)
18:11	jcrossley3	seancorfield: should i create an issue to track variable tx mgmt somewhere?
18:12	augustl	weavejester: that's odd, using lein-ring, and it doesn't seem to reload when I change my source files
18:12	dnolen	bbloom: whitespace cleanup patches are the lowest priority of all.
18:12	bbloom	dnolen: i figured as much :-)
18:13	weavejester	augustl: It should do… If you can reproduce the problem in a small project, let me know and I can try and fix it.
18:13	augustl	weavejester: will do
18:13	hiredman	jcrossley3: https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/src/hiredman/triples.clj#L29 has something similar, minus the dynamic binding stuff, it reaches in to the namespace and replaces the function
18:13	weavejester	augustl: You're using "lein ring server" right?
18:13	jcrossley3	hiredman: thanks, man
18:14	bbloom	dnolen: i'm working on the keyword perf thing we talked about. should be able to eliminate the prototype modifications to string & still maintain fast paths for pretty much all the keyword stuff. i'll let you know how it goes
18:17	augustl	weavejester: yeah
18:24	seancorfield	hiredman: jcrossley3: btw, clojure.java.jdbc.internal is no more - everything's in clojure.java.jdbc now
18:24	jcrossley3	seancorfield: yep
18:25	seancorfield	technomancy: quick emacs Q - what's the fancy paredit command that switches two levels of s-exps around? URL to the docs is fine - i can't find a reference manual style page for all the paredit stuff right now... still googling (shoulda bookmarked it!)
18:25	hiredman	seancorfield: yeah, some day I will get around to upgrading
18:25	dnolen	bbloom: if you're thinking about your integer approach - how were you planning on handling the fact that we need to call hash on everything? special casing in the hash fn?
18:25	bbloom	dnolen: so my thought is that i'm going to flesh out a proper Keyword type
18:25	bbloom	dnolen: and then go from there
18:26	augustl	weavejester: https://github.com/augustl/lein-ring-reload-test here's a reproducible example
18:26	augustl	perhaps I'm doing it wrong :)
18:28	jcrossley3	seancorfield: 'C-h m' should show you. search for barfage
18:28	technomancy	seancorfield: maybe convolute?
18:29	dnolen	bbloom: cool, that would be the way to go, one suggest, I would avoid putting anything in to a real JS object, cljs.core.KEYWORDS.foo_munged preferred, then keyword subject to Closure optimizations.
18:30	augustl	weavejester: perhaps the way I split my routes into "views" is a bit too unconventional..
18:30	bbloom	dnolen: huh?
18:30	dnolen	bbloom: no foo["keyword"]
18:30	bbloom	dnolen: why not?
18:30	dnolen	bbloom: Closure optimizations
18:31	bbloom	dnolen: oh you mean as a string. oh yeah
18:31	bbloom	dnolen: i didn't plan to access as a string
18:31	seancorfield	technomancy: yes, convolute... i hope it does what i want :)
18:31	bbloom	dnolen: foo.keyword is totaly how i planned on it :-)
18:31	technomancy	never used it myself
18:32	seancorfield	maybe it's amalloy who loves it so much then? and, yes, convolute did exactly what i wanted!
18:32	bbloom	dnolen: first up i'm going to flesh out the Keyword and Symbol types -- i'll probably temporarily disable HashObj while i do that. get those working correctly, then figure out how to get HashObj and keyword literals and keyword invokes to be fast
18:33	amalloy	yeah, i'm the one who advertises convolute
18:33	dnolen	bbloom: my suggestion would be to do what Clojure does - Symbol & Keyword should have name, mutable hash field, and meta.
18:33	bbloom	dnolen: I thought keyword didn't have meta?
18:33	dnolen	bbloom: oops right
18:33	bbloom	dnolen: i'll look at their implementations for sure.
18:34	bbloom	dnolen: i'd also like to compare possible HashObj tweaks
18:34	dnolen	bbloom: HashObj, you mean ObjMap?
18:34	bbloom	dnolen: dur yeah
18:34	bbloom	dnolen: brain fart
18:35	dnolen	bbloom: sure, though I'd rather see optimizations around PersistentHashMap, ObjMaps are very fast except for updates.
18:36	bbloom	dnolen: for example, i want to test a two level hash. for example the first level being the type & the second level being the keys of that type. so you'd have (in javascript) {s: {"i am a string": …}, k: {"iamakeyword": …}, …}
18:37	dnolen	bbloom: that just involves more copying, so what's the benefit?
18:37	bbloom	dnolen: rather than allocating the extra garbage for (str \xx \: name) etc each time
18:38	bbloom	dnolen: just thinking aloud, probably not a big difference. my thoughts are still a little fuzzy there. going to get the Keyword and Symbol types first & then measure what gets slower & optimize those things first
18:39	dnolen	bbloom: yeah any changes to ObjMap and PHM requires lots of benchmarking.
18:40	bbloom	dnolen: yup, but the symbol & keyword types have the potential to eliminate a lot of special cases. if we can make them just as fast & make strings faster across teh board, it's worth the time to benchmark :-)
18:42	dnolen	bbloom: there's no reason to do anything fancy with Keywords & Symbols in the case of ObjMap in my opinion - use name. string based property lookup in JS is very fast.
18:43	dnolen	bbloom: I agree about Symbol, Keyword simplifying a lot of logic around strings - that stuff stinks right now.
18:43	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, the reason i'm thinking about ObjMap is because changing the representation of keywords and symbols changes the implementation of objmap because i need to coerce to and from strings when going into or out of the map
18:43	bbloom	dnolen: trying to make that not get any slower
18:46	bbloom	dnolen: although, i guess (keys obj-map) is far less important to optimize than (:key obj-map) :-)
18:46	dnolen	bbloom: I don't see why you need to coerce, you have name and ObjMap stores its keys. (or (identical? key ...) (identical? (.name key) ...))
18:47	dnolen	bbloom: er (.-name key)
18:47	dnolen	bbloom: (:key obj-map ...) is pretty fast, though I think we could see 2X perf jump if we don't allocate wrapper at the call site like we do now.
18:48	dnolen	bbloom: what I want to see get fast is (map :key ...), that's like 100X slower right now or something.
18:48	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, i'm gonna eliminate that allocation & replace it with a property access
18:48	bbloom	dnolen: what's the bottleneck with map?
18:49	dnolen	bbloom: because that'll result in String.prototype.call
18:49	bbloom	dnolen: oh, that's what i figured. well, i've already deleted that code path locally, so we'll see what happens when i get everything working again :-)
18:52	bbloom	dnolen: interestingly, the clojure Keyword implementation stores a symbol, not a string
18:53	bbloom	dnolen: and Symbol stores ns and name separately, along with a mutable _str memoization
18:54	seancorfield	technomancy: i like the monokai theme - thanx for that rec on twitter - but the paren highligting is a bit too subtle for me... is that easy to change?
18:54	technomancy	probably, but I don't know the details of how
18:55	seancorfield	'k... maybe i'll have a dig around...
18:57	muhoo	oh java, how i hate thee: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3008
18:57	bbloom	dnolen: has anyone experimented with implementing ObjMap's assoc in terms of javascript's prototype? it would be non-copying
18:58	dnolen	bbloom: bbloom prototype chain lookups are not fast.
18:58	bbloom	dnolen: ok, makes sense
18:59	bbloom	dnolen: linked list recursive implementation, generally?
19:00	oskarth	what's the inverse function of clojure.java.io/file? That is, a java file -> string fn.
19:02	dnolen	bbloom: no, mostly because nothing will be faster than JS Objects for access time. we have an update threshold in place to convert to PHMs which takes care of large amounts of data.
19:02	amalloy	&(str (java.io.File. "/foo/bar"))
19:02	lazybot	⇒ "/foo/bar"
19:03	seancorfield	technomancy: that was easy - edit .emacs.d/elpa/monokai-theme-0.0.7/monokai-theme.el and reload the theme
19:03	oskarth	oh. thanks.
19:04	dnolen	bbloom: I would be very surprised if you can beat PHM for update/access for anything but small maps.
19:05	bbloom	dnolen: i don't expect to. i'm just exploring.
19:08	dnolen	bbloom: definitely worth looking into, perhaps there are other persistent data structures which don't require so much array allocation.
19:08	technomancy	seancorfield: that'll work until you move machines I guess
19:08	dnolen	bbloom: I'm beginning to suspect the poor state of JS GC (outside of V8) is why the numbers aren't as good on JSC and SM.
19:09	bbloom	dnolen: that's why i'm wondering about reducing allocations when working with keywords, symbols, etc
19:10	dnolen	bbloom: 2-3 fields isn't much to allocate - Clojure persistent data structures generally want (make-array 32)
19:16	nDuff	Blegh. Having trouble convincing an OSGi classloader to allow clojure/core/incubator.clj to be provided by a different bundle than the one that owns clojure.core
19:17	st3ve	hey anyone here work with the "noir" framework much?
19:17	nDuff	st3ve: played with it briefly, decided I need something more powerful, moved to Compojure
19:18	ibdknox	nDuff: more powerful?
19:18	PeregrinePDX	noir uses Compojure doesn't it? And all of Compojure is available in noir....
19:18	PeregrinePDX	So I don't see how it's any less powerful it just has certain assumptions baked into it.
19:19	PeregrinePDX	You might not like those assumptions which is fine.
19:19	ibdknox	yeah it does.
19:19	technomancy	the age old framework-vs-library question
19:20	PeregrinePDX	Definitely.
19:20	technomancy	it's lightweight for a framework, but it's a framework.
19:20	nDuff	ibdknox: shrug -- the full power of compojure may have been available, but it wasn't obvious at the time how to access the parts I needed.
19:21	ibdknox	like?
19:21	nDuff	Don't know. Weeks ago, and my memory operates on a scale of days; I'd have to try again to get a fresher / more useful opinion.
19:21	ibdknox	okidoke, just wondering :)
19:28	emezeske	ibdknox: I ended up moving away from noir when I needed to start grouping routes together in more complex ways
19:28	emezeske	ibdknox: It was doable in noir, but there basically wasn't much of an advantage at that point
19:28	beffbernard	st3ve: what was your question about noir?
19:28	gfredericks	huh; core.logic's conde is _not_ semantically the same as RS's condi.
19:29	st3ve	oh, thanks, beffbernard, i was just letting everyone finish up arguing about it ;)
19:29	emezeske	ibdknox: noir is really nice, but it sounded like you wanted to hear about someone not using it :)
19:29	emezeske	ibdknox: The driving force behind more complex route groupings was cemerick/friend, btw.
19:30	beffbernard	st3ve: FYI, ibdknox is the author of noir
19:30	ibdknox	emezeske: I don't have the bandwidth to do it right now, but I thought about writing a couple of simple things to make it really easy to just wrap all the non-routing things around compojure
19:30	ibdknox	then you can have the best of both worlds
19:30	emezeske	nice!
19:30	emezeske	that would indeed be sweet.
19:30	ibdknox	it would be really easy to do
19:30	ibdknox	just take a lil time
19:31	emezeske	I was thinking about putting together some cemerick/friend + noir thing, to make that combo easy
19:31	emezeske	But I ended up not building that out for lack of time :(
19:32	ibdknox	I know the feeling :)
19:32	hiredman	time is the fire
19:32	emezeske	You more than me!
19:34	st3ve	well i'm an absolute neophyte to noir, but i've read through the tutorials and howtos and think it looks neat. i also saw that there is mentioned a thing called stringtemplate, which i could use to work with, say, a pile of html from my designer colleague
19:34	st3ve	but it wasn't clear how i'd go about fitting the stringtemplate stuff into the clojure bits. is there any specific documentation on that?
19:37	nDuff	ibdknox: ...actually, I just remembered what it was that was being problematic with noir -- I wanted to route on a different piece of request data (:path-info rather than :uri, maybe?)
19:42	leku	what does Rich Hickey mean by "boxed version" of something?
19:43	rlb	leku: Integer vs int, for example, I imagine -- if that means anything to you.
19:44	leku	hm no..
19:44	rlb	i.e. whether or not there's a heap allocated object for the particular item.
19:44	rlb	(at least to some approximation, I believe)
19:44	gfredericks	jvm has both primitive numbers and proper objects
19:44	gfredericks	booleans are primitive too I guess
19:45	gfredericks	all the primitives have "boxed" object analogues
19:45	rlb	you'd much rather have an int/long/double, but the jvm requires a full-blown object in many circumstances
19:45	rlb	(where much rather means wrt perf/allocation)
19:45	leku	k
19:47	rlb	leku: if that didn't make sense, I'd be happy to try again ;>
19:47	wmealing	Anyone here use lein2 midje lazytest ?
19:48	leku	I'm thinking I'm not at the point in my learning of clojure/lisp yet to undersatnd waht you mean possibly
19:48	rlb	leku: what language are you coming from?
19:48	leku	i know perl pretty well
19:48	rlb	(or language(s))
19:48	wmealing	No matter what I configure in the project files, or profiles.clj it doesn't seem to find the correct class for lazytest
19:49	rlb	hmm, can't think of a really good analog there offhand. Familiar with C or C++ at all?
19:49	gfredericks	leku: it has a lot more to do with java/jvm than with lisp
19:49	leku	some C yeah
19:50	gfredericks	e.g., with clojurescript there's not really a relevant analogue
19:50	technomancy	leku: in an ideal world, everything would be an object. but that causes a lot more garbage collection to be necessary among other issues, so primitives are a low-overhead way to store numbers
19:50	rlb	OK, so wrt memory a C int/long/double is more like a stack allocated C int/long/double, and a java/clojure Integer is more like malloc(sizeof(Integer))...
19:50	leku	gotcha
19:50	leku	(techno)
19:50	rlb	except of course, you have initialization, GC, etc.
19:50	rlb	clojure more or less hides all of that from you
19:51	rlb	it automatically converts back and forth
19:51	leku	it turns a primitive into an object?
19:51	rlb	leku yes, that's the core of boxing/unboxing
19:52	leku	ok i understand a bit
19:53	leku	thanks
19:53	rlb	leku: and in java, int[] is fairly similar to C's int[], etc.
19:54	rlb	..which is clojure's (int-array [1 2 3])
19:55	rlb	And should be much more efficient wrt storage than [1 2 3], but it's likely not what you want in clojure most of the time.
19:55	st3ve	ibdknox: don't mean to bug you, but in case you missed my question - is there any documentation on using stringtemplate within noir? or a howto, or tutorial, or anything?
19:56	rlb	(since an int[] array isn't immutable)
19:56	leku	so [1 2 3] and (int-array [1 2 3]) are different?
19:56	rlb	very
19:57	rlb	leku: feel free to pretend that you don't know about int-array for now.
19:57	leku	k
19:57	leku	i feel like i dont know anything for now :)
19:58	rlb	it's useful for interop with java, and if you need to pack the maximum number of native ints into the smallest space , but since it's not immutable, it doesn't play well with the rest of clojure.
19:58	leku	i have so many tabs open in chrome of stuff to read they're all blending together
19:58	leku	rlb: ah ok
19:58	rlb	a clojure vector like [1 2 3] is immutable, so when you change it, what you really get is a very efficient copy.
19:58	technomancy	if you're just learning clojure you should probably ignore the primitive stuff if you can get away with it
19:58	beffbernard	st3ve: check out the comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/ablcc/string_interpolation_in_clojure/
19:58	rlb	(i.e. copy on write)
19:58	technomancy	it's much more consistent to pretend the entire world made of objects
19:58	rlb	ish
19:59	rlb	right -- what technomancy said...
19:59	leku	k
19:59	st3ve	sweet!
19:59	wmealing	what, the world isnt made of objects ?
19:59	st3ve	beffbernard: thank you! that's exactly the kind of simple example i need. something like that, i can use as a jumping-off point to learn all other necessary information.
20:00	leku	when I want to change a vector, do I have to do so implicitly, meaning make a copy, add data, or does clojure see what i'm trying to do and do that for me?
20:00	st3ve	for me, it's always that first bit of how-to that's the toughest. so, thanks. i'm bookmarking that.
20:01	beffbernard	st3ve: glad I could help
20:01	gfredericks	leku: the mechanisms for "changing" vectors only work by making copies
20:01	st3ve	ibdknox: i would encourage you to add a simple example like what beffbernard linked, into the docs on the "html" section of the tutorials.
20:01	leku	k
20:02	leku	st3ve: you might want to send him an email?
20:02	gfredericks	leku: to change a vector you call the assoc function and pass it that vector. it gives you a new vector back, and the old one hasn't changed.
20:02	st3ve	sure, i can do that.
20:02	gfredericks	,(let [v1 [1 2 3], v2 (assoc v1 1 20)] (list v1 v2))
20:02	clojurebot	([1 2 3] [1 20 3])
20:03	rlb	leku: btw, if you haven't seen it yet, I found the cheatsheet helpful - http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
20:03	leku	cool, thanks
20:04	gfredericks	I like how leku asks about boxing and it takes us five minutes to get to "don't you worry about that"
20:04	leku	haha
20:04	leku	i'm confused about that assoc
20:05	leku	how come it only added the last element of the v1 vector?
20:05	rlb	leku: assoc created a new vector with the value you wanted changed.
20:05	amalloy	leku: (assoc v1 1 20) is a bit like: v1[1] = 20
20:05	rlb	(though it creates the new vector efficiently -- it doesn't make a fully copy)
20:05	leku	what did you say you wanted changed?
20:05	rlb	s/fully/full/
20:06	leku	(assoc v1 1 20)
20:06	leku	you're changing 1 in v1 to 20?
20:06	rlb	,(doc assoc)
20:06	clojurebot	"([map key val] [map key val & kvs]); assoc[iate]. When applied to a map, returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that contains the mapping of key(s) to val(s). When applied to a vector, returns a new vector that contains val at index. Note - index must be <= (count vector)."
20:06	leku	wouldn't it be 20 2 3 then?
20:06	gfredericks	leku: not the 1 value, the 1th position
20:06	leku	ok
20:06	leku	got it
20:07	gfredericks	,(let [v1 [:a :b :c], v2 (assoc v1 1 20)] (list v1 v2))
20:07	clojurebot	([:a :b :c] [:a 20 :c])
20:07	leku	nice
20:07	leku	good examples, thanks :)
20:07	gfredericks	np
20:08	leku	what if you didn't know the position, only the value?
20:09	gfredericks	well that'd be a different kind of thing. And not fully specified yet -- i.e., what do you want to do if there are duplicates?
20:09	amalloy	then you usually shouldn't be using a vector, but a map
20:09	rlb	fwiw, when I was toying with the trivial perf test the other day (to generate a ton of random integers), it was in reference to this: http://blog.cdleary.com/2012/06/simple-selfish-and-unscientific-shootout/
20:09	gfredericks	I don't think there's a core function for this because it doesn't come up much in practice. as amalloy says.
20:09	amalloy	&(doc replace) ;; gfredericks
20:09	lazybot	⇒ "([smap coll]); Given a map of replacement pairs and a vector/collection, returns a vector/seq with any elements = a key in smap replaced with the corresponding val in smap"
20:10	leku	k
20:10	rlb	I got a simple clojure version to about 25s, close to java's 18s -- which was good enough for me...
20:11	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah well I didn't mean "clojure.core", I meant "core" as in "functions I care about"
20:11	gfredericks	so neener neener
20:11	amalloy	got it
20:11	amalloy	replace is kinda lame anyway
20:11	gfredericks	it's funny I was thinking to myself "a good name for that function would be "replace""
20:14	gfredericks	,(replace #{:b 20} [:a :b :c])
20:14	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet cannot be cast to java.util.Map>
20:14	gfredericks	,(replace {:b 20} [:a :b :c])
20:14	clojurebot	[:a 20 :c]
20:14	gfredericks	I bet that vector thing is an optimization
20:19	seancorfield	technomancy: i store .emacs.d on dropbox and symlink it so it's sync'd to all my machines :)
20:19	seancorfield	(sorry for slow response, was away working on a database - with a clojure repl)
20:21	technomancy	seancorfield: that's not going to work very well across machines; .elc bytecode is not compatible across different Emacs versions
20:24	technomancy	I don't understand the appeal of dropbox for source code.
20:25	brehaut	its like git, but with few of the advantages
20:26	technomancy	I do crazy experimental things in my code all the time that I don't want propagated.
20:28	brehaut	oh thats easy. just copy all your code into another directory that isnt in drop box and copy it back later. what could go wrong!
20:30	gtrak`	I do git in dropbox
20:31	technomancy	git add -f .svn && git commit -m "Just to be extra safe."
20:31	seancorfield	technomancy: i use the same version of emacs on all my machines - so far the dropbox/symlink thing has worked very well...
20:32	seancorfield	but good to know about .elc bytecode compatibility
20:32	technomancy	just sounds a bit too close to checking in jar files for comfort
20:32	ibdknox	st3ve: use comb or stencil instead, unless you have to use string template
20:33	seancorfield	and i don't store _my_ code in dropbox - i just use it to share certain folders between machines (and more importantly between machines and my phone and ipad)
20:33	technomancy	config is code
20:33	gtrak`	I also recently put a local svn server dir under git while I messed with it with git-svn
20:34	seancorfield	once i'd figured out how to do a hard symlink on windows, it also meant i could keep emacs on my XP VM in sync with my Mac and my Ubuntu netbook :)
20:34	seancorfield	i don't version my emacs config - i don't see the point
20:34	technomancy	o_O
20:35	wmealing	i'm addon happy, nice to be able to revert and keep backups of working configs.
20:35	wmealing	including the config code
20:35	seancorfield	i don't mess with my emacs config much... just a few small tweaks to keep it sane across mac/ubuntu and cocoa/terminal on mac
20:36	brehaut	seancorfield: i just use technomancies config for my emacs; its already in git
20:36	brehaut	s/ies/y's/
20:37	cemerick	technomancy: what do you mean, "rough around the edges" re: hstore + jdbc?
20:38	technomancy	cemerick: the only driver I could find is distributed with some crazy openstreetmap thing; I had to pull a few classfiles out of a jar and repackage it as org.clojars.technomancy/jdbc-hstore
20:38	technomancy	also you have to pour all maps into/out of a PGHStore object
20:38	cemerick	huh
20:38	technomancy	it fails to inspire confidence
20:38	cemerick	technomancy: the examples I've seen all make it look like it's just string/varchar data going in and out?
20:39	technomancy	cemerick: maybe you can use it on a lower-level without this; this is the only thing that works with j.u.Map
20:39	cemerick	oh, I see
20:40	cemerick	so presumably you can spit xml into an hstore xml column without a problem.
22:04	leku	anyone using linode or aws for personal stuff? such as just havinga linux env for development or random things like IRC?
22:05	amalloy	leku: 4clojure.com lives on my linode
22:06	hiredman	I just moved clojurebot on to a t1.micro
22:06	amalloy	oh, and lazybot lives there too
22:06	hiredman	just yesterday?
22:06	hiredman	yes, yesterday
22:08	leku	just wondering if it is worth the expense
22:09	hiredman	http://aws.amazon.com/free/faqs/
22:09	hiredman	there are free usage tiers
22:09	leku	hmm
22:09	brehaut	leku: by linode do you mean linode specifically or linux VPSs in general?
22:09	hiredman	the t1.micro is free, but I am going to be paying whatever for the extra ebs volume I guess
22:10	hiredman	I have irc messages going through amazon's sqs which costs me around $1.50 a month
22:10	leku	linux VPSs in general I guess, I see linode is a popular one tho?
22:11	leku	what do you mean by that hiredman?
22:11	brehaut	well, slicehost and rimuhosting are both popular
22:11	bbloom	dnolen: any tips for finding bugs in advanced mode? for example, "Cannot read property 'ga' of null" on a random line is kinda tricky to trace back to a particular spot
22:11	brehaut	ive got a prgmr.com vps because its cheap as and im not doing anything serious with it
22:11	hiredman	leku: I irc on a remote machine, but I like getting growl notifications, so I have a little clojure programming that more or less feeds the irc log in to a queue, and another clojure program running locally that pulls it from the queue and growls it
22:12	leku	oh fancy
22:13	leku	are you doing a tail on that log? or do you do it in a batch mode?
22:13	leku	maybe out of cron?
22:14	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/Howler/blob/master/src/Howler/core.clj
22:15	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/Howler/blob/master/src/Howler/core.clj#L60 is the remote part that feeds the queue
22:15	leku	cool
22:17	leku	so whats the gravatar stuff do?
22:18	leku	allow you to display someones avatar associated with their nickname in a growl popup?
22:20	leku	also waht is with the locking/acquire/release ?
22:20	hiredman	limit the number of growl notify processes running
22:20	hiredman	I had an issue with previous versions of growl where they would not terminate
22:21	johnmn3	so I'm taking my first foray into databases/sql
22:21	johnmn3	any suggestions?
22:21	brehaut	johnmn3: from clojure or in general?
22:21	johnmn3	clojure
22:21	johnmn3	(but it is still my first foray into db)
22:22	brehaut	so are you wanting suggestions on RDBM systems, clojure librarys or both?
22:22	johnmn3	my first thought was "korma and sqlite3"
22:22	johnmn3	but there seems to be minimal docs out there on the combo
22:22	johnmn3	maybe couchdb..?
22:23	brehaut	well couchdb is interesting, but its not an SQL db
22:23	brehaut	its not a relational DB at all
22:23	brehaut	you need to know that your data model fits that of couch before you select it.
22:23	johnmn3	I did use granger's "simpledb" from his noir example site, when I played with that.
22:25	johnmn3	I'd like to persist some of my clojure data structures
22:26	dnolen	bbloom: nearly impossible to find bugs in advanced mode, use simple or whitespace.
22:26	leku	what was that persistent object database in Symbiotics ?
22:26	bbloom	dnolen: that's what i figured :-)
22:26	leku	err symbolics
22:26	dnolen	bbloom: another reason for source maps.
22:26	johnmn3	in fact, the solution that most closely maps to clojures datastructures would be preferrable.. though I know I /should/ learn sql
22:26	bbloom	dnolen: good point.
22:26	hiredman	johnmn3: you don't need sql for that
22:26	bbloom	dnolen: so i have most things working again with an explicit symbol and keyword type -- no optimizations yet, but perf isn't terrible
22:27	hiredman	if you just want to persist datastructures you can use prn/read to the filesystem
22:27	leku	symbolics statice
22:27	brehaut	which is exactly what ibdknox's simpledb appears to do
22:27	leku	has that been replicated at all by anyone in modern days?
22:27	dnolen	bbloom: that kind of patch is no good if it's not actually faster :)
22:28	leku	http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/statice.html
22:28	hiredman	a notch up from prn/read (because it allows for sharing) is something like https://github.com/hiredman/sunyata
22:28	johnmn3	hiredman: I know, but I'd like something a little more industrious than that, I'd guess. Say I want to run an intranet service... it'll have between 10 and 100 users... I don't even know the right db vocabulary to tell you what I should or shouldn't need. :/
22:29	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, of course! but i can git commit & then go try various optimizations
22:29	johnmn3	hmm, looking at sunyata
22:29	bbloom	dnolen: i found a few other bugs while i'm poking around. i'll send patches or just file them
22:29	hiredman	johnmn3: sunyata is really just a toy
22:30	dnolen	bbloom: cool, looking forward to seeing where it goes! :) feel free to create a patch + ticket, I'll try it out when you think it's ready.
22:30	hiredman	johnmn3: I would be very surprised if prn/read didn't work find for 10 to 100 users
22:30	hiredman	fine
22:30	hiredman	at that scale just about anything would work
22:30	brehaut	hiredman: except perhaps mysql
22:30	brehaut	~rimshot
22:30	clojurebot	Badum, tish
22:31	hiredman	hiho
22:32	hiredman	sunyata is actually what I use locally to map irc nicks to email addresses so I can get gravatars for my notifications
22:32	brehaut	johnmn3: i dont think anyone can really make a suggestion without knowing more about what you are actually building, and what your motivation is. are you specifically wanting to learn about DBs? or are you specifically trying to write an app
22:33	johnmn3	brehaut: both, but they don't have to necessarily depend on each other.
22:34	bbloom	dnolen: no brainer: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-304
22:35	jedmtnman	is there a better way to write this: (filter #(> (get % :score) 1) stuff)
22:35	johnmn3	one example... at work I have to munge data... everybody uses excel.. I'm no excel wizard.. however, when I pull the data in to clojure datastructures, I'm pretty efficient, and more powerful than with excel. So I'd like a persistent clojure db where I can add data to it over time and build metrics and reports as it grows
22:35	brehaut	johnmn3: well if you want to learn about DBs, learning the relational model (SQL is relational, but relational is not just SQL). Once you have grasped that, you can look at other models and understand better what you are trading off.
22:36	johnmn3	well, I'm not a "data munger" as I probably wouldn't be using excel if that was my thing.. but, you know, I just have to build metrics for the team and whatnot, so I'm trying to transition to clojure instead of excel for that work.
22:36	brehaut	, (filter (comp (partial <= 1) :score) [{:score 1} {:score 0} {:score 2}]) ;; johnmn3
22:36	clojurebot	({:score 1} {:score 2})
22:36	tomoj	is there a nice way to allow foo(bar, {baz: bing}) from js and (foo bar :baz bing) in cljs?
22:37	brehaut	err sorry, jedmtnman ^
22:37	dnolen	bbloom: cool thx
22:38	tomoj	thinking about something nuts like exporting the cljs version then doing a set! to stick the js version in - but even if that worked at all, I think it'd only work under advanced, and it's crazy
22:38	jedmtnman	brehaut: thanks, i thought it might be with partial, i just couldn't see it.
22:38	johnmn3	hiredman: is sunyata like: https://github.com/ibdknox/simpledb ??
22:38	lazybot	johnmn3: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
22:38	brehaut	,(remove (comp (partial > 1) :score) [{:score 1} {:score 0} {:score 2}]) ;; jedmtnman perhaps ;)
22:38	clojurebot	({:score 1} {:score 2})
22:38	tomoj	well I suppose I can just check whether the first of the rest args is a keyword
22:41	jedmtnman	brehaut: thanks again
22:42	johnmn3	hiredman: in sunyata's readme, what do you mean by "shared"?
22:46	johnmn3	infinispan? Isn't that for datacenters or somethign?
22:56	johnmn3	is there a place where all of ccw's keybindings can be found?
23:01	wmealing	johnmn3, its not for desktops, if thats what you mean
23:02	wmealing	immutant makes infinispan access pretty simple
23:02	johnmn3	wmealing: yea, I'll be doing most stuff on my desktop. what little I'll do on a server probably won't have infinispan either.
23:03	wmealing	https://docs.jboss.org/author/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=3737165
23:04	wmealing	johnmn3, you're not mixing up infinispan with infiniband are you ?
23:04	johnmn3	oooh, yea
23:05	johnmn3	which is a SAN networking thing, right?
23:05	wmealing	well, you can connect a bunch of devices to it, sans also
23:06	wmealing	ive seen other infiniband machines, sans, some very high resolution cameras... that kind of stuff
23:06	wmealing	its for big bandwidth, low latency application, cost a fortune
23:11	johnmn3_	wmealing: ah
23:11	johnmn3_	I'm liking the simplicity of granger's simpledb
23:12	wmealing	example anywhere ?
23:12	wmealing	you mean like amazon simpledb ?
23:12	johnmn3_	no, unfortunate choice of name
23:13	johnmn3_	https://github.com/ibdknox/simpledb/blob/master/src/simpledb/core.clj
23:13	wmealing	am i reading that right, it only syncs on clean shutdown ?
23:14	wmealing	oh it schedules it every now and again
23:14	johnmn3_	what about just adding an add-watch to an atom with a map in it, and writing to a file (similar to granger's simpledb) everytime the data is touched? Bad for performance?
23:14	wmealing	could be, but do you care ?
23:15	wmealing	unless you have significant amount of data, its probably not going to be a big deal
23:15	wmealing	(that wasn't being a smart ass, that was a legit question)
23:15	wmealing	and you're right about one thing, that is likable.
23:16	johnmn3_	Well, if I do a (map #(persist ...) bunch-o-data) does the add-watch trigger on every item in bunch-o-data, or just the whole thing.
23:16	johnmn3_	well, yes
23:16	johnmn3_	bad example
23:16	wmealing	yeah, i imagine so
23:16	wmealing	if you did a map put, i think it would not
23:17	johnmn3_	point is, if I treat the map in the atom like a normal map in an atom, and I have an operation that does iterates across that collection or another, that may trigger lots of unnecessary writes, I suppose.
23:18	bbloom	dnolen: any reason to maintain the deprecated HashMap?
23:18	johnmn3_	even reading the atom may trigger another write
23:19	wmealing	johnmn3_, i'm pretty new at clojure, but how did you come to the conclusion that reading would write (from the example given ?)
23:20	johnmn3_	wmealing: I'm talking about adding an add-watch: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/add-watch
23:20	johnmn3_	"Adds a watch function to an agent/atom/var/ref reference. The watch
23:20	johnmn3_	fn must be a fn of 4 args: a key, the reference, its old-state, its
23:20	johnmn3_	new-state. Whenever the reference's state might have been changed,
23:20	johnmn3_	any registered watches will have their functions called."
23:20	johnmn3_	ugh, ma'bad
23:21	johnmn3_	okay, so that just says "when changed"
23:21	johnmn3_	so a read should not trigger the watcher
23:21	wmealing	yeah
23:21	amalloy	erc strikes again, johnmn3_?
23:21	wmealing	another erc user :)! hi
23:21	johnmn3_	smuxi
23:21	wmealing	oh
23:22	dnolen	bbloom: hanging around as reference for perf benchmarks, it will get dead code eliminated.
23:22	johnmn3_	on windows here
23:22	johnmn3_	smuxi seems like a decent xchat-alike
23:23	bbloom	dnolen: thanks
23:23	bbloom	dnolen: one important thing to note about any potential Keyword type. identical? will return true for any interned, known keywords, but not for any dynamic ones. this differs from clojure, which has the benefit of interning strings using weak references
23:25	johnmn3_	so, for (map #(swap! persistent-atom (fn [x] (assoc @persistent-atom :this %))) thousand-items)
23:25	johnmn3_	does that trigger a thousand events on the watch or just one?
23:25	dnolen	bbloom: yeah
23:26	bbloom	dnolen: no big deal, but i did have to change defprotocol to use = instead of identical? in one or two places -- im still working out some kinks like that and then ill run a bunch of benchmarks
23:33	johnmn3_	user=> (map #(swap! a (fn [x] %)) [1 2 3 4 5]) -> (its happening, its happening, its happening, its happening, its happening, 1 2 3 4 5)
23:33	johnmn3_	yea
23:34	johnmn3_	so maybe using an add-watcher to persist a ref is a little dangerous on io
23:34	wmealing	yep
23:51	bbloom	dnolen: why are ObjMaps promoted to persistent versions based on update-count ? i assume that was optimized empirically, but i don't understand why
23:55	dnolen	bbloom: what do you mean?
23:55	bbloom	dnolen: (deftype ObjMap [meta keys strobj update-count ^:mutable __hash]
23:56	bbloom	update-count is checked against cljs.core.ObjMap/HASHMAP_THRESHOLD
23:56	dnolen	bbloom: updating anything but the smallest ObjMap is crazy slow
23:56	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, but that's not size, that's number of changes
23:56	dnolen	bbloom: why shouldn't we promote after N updates?
23:56	dnolen	bbloom: we do both.
23:56	bbloom	dnolen: i see you do both. I'm asking why that's faster :-)
23:57	dnolen	bbloom: because updating anything but the smallest maps is very slow.
23:58	bbloom	dnolen: dissoc increments update-count. if you alternated assoc & dissoc of the same key, you'd never have (count keys) > 1
23:58	bbloom	dnolen: yet it will still be promoted
23:58	dnolen	bbloom: because it's map that keeps changing frequently - it will become the bottleneck.
23:59	dnolen	bbloom: look at the benchmarks, most are 1000000 iters, but assoc on ObjMap is 100000
23:59	dnolen	bbloom: it's that slow.