#clojure – 2012-05-31

2012-05-31

00:00	amalloy	(even though it claims to). and you installed 0.3.0, which is the lein2 plugin, not the lein1 plugin
00:01	coventry	Just a misunderstanding, will give it a go. Thanks.
00:04	coventry	Ah, so that's why adding the plugin to ./lein/project.clj didn't work.
00:32	michaelr525	morning!
03:01	tomoj	devn: hey, do you still have the link to that gist about core.logic?
03:02	tomoj	my laptop conveniently locked up completely right as I was going to click on it, thinking "whoa"
03:02	tomoj	and google custom search seems not to have picked it up yet
03:03	tomoj	oh
03:03	tomoj	datomic not core.logic
03:03	tomoj	found it
03:21	muhoo	where is it?
03:35	muhoo	oic, i had to do this before i finally understood it: (->> [185 13235209671M 25939708511M 1654794401M 12429901063M 131081 65539] (mapcat #(cons "\n" (next (map {\0 \ , \1 \#} (Long/toBinaryString %))))) (apply str) symbol)
03:35	muhoo	it's a bitmap, clever.
04:35	TEttinger	hmm
04:35	TEttinger	I'm trying to make a dead-simple Conway's Game of Life in the console
04:36	ordnungswidrig	TEttinger: that is a good excercise
04:36	TEttinger	and I can't figure out how to keep the app going, continually generating new boards
04:36	TEttinger	it is something to do with Thread/sleep
04:36	ordnungswidrig	should it repeateldy print the state in the repl?
04:37	TEttinger	I just need to know a way to evaluate some function, sleep, eval, sleep, etc.
04:37	TEttinger	well it could use a repl?
04:37	TEttinger	i was just using lein run
04:37	TEttinger	i used the repl for the development part
04:37	ordnungswidrig	k
04:38	ordnungswidrig	can you show your problem at a pastebin?
04:39	clgv	TEttinger: you just need an infinite loop that prints one iteration step.
04:40	clgv	maybe you should specify in advance how many steps you want to see ;)
04:40	clgv	TEttinger: e.g.: (dotimes [_ 100] (my-iteration-code))
04:41	PeregrinePDX	(take 10 (repeatedly game-of-life-function))
04:41	PeregrinePDX	Would get you 10 iterations.
04:42	TEttinger	thanks
04:43	ordnungswidrig	for a pure implementation you can do like this:
04:43	TEttinger	I was struggling with ideone having weird syntax highlighting, and that made me think there was a problem with my code
04:43	TEttinger	http://pastie.org/4000414
04:44	ordnungswidrig	(->> step-fn (repeat num-iters) (reduce #(%2 %1) seed))
04:45	TEttinger	->> does what now?
04:46	ordnungswidrig	(->> 5 (+ 1 2 3) (print "result" )) will expand to (print "result" (+ 1 2 3 5)) thus is "inserts" the result as the _last_ argument to the next expression
04:46	TEttinger	PeregrinePDX, yeah the code i based it off of (mislabeled in there, part of -main is the original code)
04:46	ordnungswidrig	but it was overly complicated because iterate will be easier
04:46	TEttinger	yeah the code originally used iterate
04:47	ordnungswidrig	so (nth (iterate step seed) num-iters) will be easier
04:47	TEttinger	I'm sorry, what?
04:48	TEttinger	what is that solving?
04:48	ordnungswidrig	this will to the same as the code I showed above using reduce
04:48	clgv	probably `take` is better since you want to see the progress of the game, right?
04:48	TEttinger	yeah
04:48	TEttinger	but I need to pause with Thread.sleep between printing the steps
04:49	TEttinger	ideally it would keep going until the user Ctrl-D or Ctrl-C 's it
04:49	PeregrinePDX	So remove the take x portion.
04:49	ordnungswidrig	PeregrinePDX: there is no printing
04:50	TEttinger	yeah, but how would I sleep
04:50	clgv	(Thread/sleep 1000)
04:51	TEttinger	steps it needs to do: run first generation, print, sleep, run second generation, print, sleep...
04:51	clgv	&(do (println "1") (flush) (Thread/sleep) (println "2") (flush))
04:51	lazybot	java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: sleep
04:51	TEttinger	&(do (println "1") (flush) (Thread/sleep 10) (println "2") (flush))
04:51	lazybot	⇒ 1 2 nil
04:51	clgv	ah lol^^
04:52	TEttinger	so how would i handle function calls mixed into taking an element from a lazy sequence
04:52	clgv	TEttinger: (doseq [board (iterate ...)] (println board) (Thread/sleep 1000))
04:53	TEttinger	oh! doseq! I always forget about the do??? functions
04:53	TEttinger	thanks clgv, will try
04:53	clgv	you want to have side effects, you should use a `do*` ;)
04:59	TEttinger	http://pastie.org/4000482 for those who want to try, it needs an 80-char-wide terminal
05:45	amalloy	TEttinger: have you looked at http://www.4clojure.com/problem/94?
06:21	opened	I'm going to start reading sicp. Any comments on the book, from the clojure perspective?
06:22	clgv	amalloy: that one is underspecified for the "edge cases" ;)
06:25	ejackson	anybody know the equivalent for $(this) is cljs ?
06:26	ejackson	(using jayq, that is)
06:26	clgv	ejackson: maybe an implizit 'this symbol?
06:27	clgv	*implicit
06:27	ejackson	yeah, I fooled about with ($ "this") and ($ :this) etc
06:28	ejackson	(js* "this") yields DOM objects in callback, but is a bit wild
06:31	clgv	ejackson: did you examine the js it is compiled to?
06:31	ejackson	eep, no I didn't, good call, thanks !
06:34	ejackson	lol its 20k lines
06:34	ejackson	hence all the fuss about minifiers :)
06:37	ejackson	FTR, this works: ($ (js* "this")) in callbacks to get a jquery on that thingie doing the calling
06:37	kilon	never liked any of the common lisp / scheme books i read
06:37	ejackson	a bit wild though
06:37	kilon	confused me a lot
06:37	kilon	fortunately clojure documentation is way better
06:38	kilon	i find this very helpful
06:38	kilon	http://clojuredocs.org/quickref/Clojure%20Core
06:38	clgv	ejackson: if you are interested you could trace back through jayq where ($ :this) fails. would be worth a patch I guess.
06:39	clgv	kilon: this is also pretty good: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet - I have the pdf printed on the desk ;)
06:40	kilon	clgv: indeed this is extremely helpful
06:41	kilon	thanks , missed that one
06:41	kilon	i am suprised that such a new language has such good documentation
06:45	ejackson	clgv: I'll raise it, but I'm sure there's a reason its not there already :)
06:45	ejackson	Raynes: you're a contributor - you still about ?
06:46	clgv	ejackson: which reason would that be?
06:46	ejackson	something like "yes it works in your instance, but look at this other case where it blows up"
06:46	ejackson	i don't know enough about the JS world to say
06:48	clgv	then I would start with the premis that this one might have slipped attention so far since cljs and jayq are both pretty young ;)
06:49	ejackson	alrighty, I'll raise an issue and see who slaps me up first :)
07:13	clgv	Instead of having global parameters for the run of an algorithm, which are accessed where needed, one could compile the functions of the algorithm when just before the run and inject the parameters as constants into the code of the functions. One could write a special defn-macro for this. Has anyone tried that yet?
07:15	ejackson	sortof like inlining data
07:17	clgv	ejackson: and functions. I'd describe it more as templates for functions
07:17	ejackson	what's the win ?
07:17	clgv	The functions would get cleaner since I dont have to pass the Parameter-Container along and access it to query the parameter values
07:19	ejackson	you can't have the data as argument 0 and partial it in ?
07:19	clgv	jvm could inline functions (that are given as parameter as well)
07:19	clgv	ejackson: it's distributed through the whole algorithm
07:19	ejackson	yeah, I have similar stuff but I like it there :)
07:20	ejackson	so I can see its bony ass
07:20	clgv	I dont like it - I would like more clarity and save the additional parameter access times
07:21	clgv	I have a single point where I could compile the whole thing
07:22	clgv	maybe it could even be dual: if no parameters are bound it compiles normal functions that take the parameter-container
07:23	ejackson	i've grown to be frightened of such magics
07:24	clgv	it needs to be thouroughly tested. thats true. but it can't really cause much pain since it'll explode if no params are bound ;)
07:26	clgv	a pity that the word "template" is so strictly bound to html if you search for "clojure function templates"
07:27	clgv	hmmm there is clojure.template but thats not sufficient
07:27	clgv	and not really near the vision I have
07:30	michaelr525	can i create a non-caching lazy seq using loop recur? I would like to "run over" the rows of a big table, proccesing one at a time.
07:35	Chousuke	michaelr525: just use a lazy seq and doseq
07:37	michaelr525	Chousuke: isn't there a potential stack overflow?
07:37	Chousuke	no?
07:37	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
07:37	michaelr525	Chousuke: i mean, lazy-seq implies recursive function call which implies stack overflow, no?
07:38	Chousuke	nope
07:38	Chousuke	laziness prevents the stack growth
07:39	michaelr525	are you sure? i will eventually force the whole seq
07:40	michaelr525	say 2M items, means 2M recursions no?
07:40	Chousuke	ths recursive call is done when an element is realised, at which point the previous call will have returned
07:40	sjl	michaelr525: as long as you don't hold onto a pointer to the head of that seq, the elements will get garbage collected as you move past them
07:40	michaelr525	great! :)
07:40	Chousuke	that is a separate issue
07:41	clgv	kilon: slow. see solaris ;)
07:41	sjl	yeah, there's not really any recursion because by the time you actually call the function a second time you're out of the first call
07:41	kilon	clgv: i dont mean entirely, linux kerner will do
07:42	kilon	keep around things in C for speed, is perfectly fine by me
07:43	clgv	kilon: isnt solaris a unix with only a java desktop?
07:43	kilon	it is ? sorry i am not that familiar with it
07:43	kilon	never used it
07:43	clgv	I had a demo cd back in 2004 or so ;)
07:44	scottj	kilon: I don't think clojure dictates much of how a user environment would be. you could imagine the concurrency and database-backed filesystem of BeOS (but with datomic), the interactiveness of smalltalk VM/Symbolics Genera/emacs, but maybe you'd just end up with unity running the speed of libreoffice.
07:45	kilon	one thing i learned , is making a coder life easier, immediately affects the user
07:47	kilon	look how much python boosted the development of linux
07:48	kilon	pupy linux uses both genie (python clone that runs much faster, with static types) and Vala (C# clone)
07:49	kilon	cant say either have any noticable slow downs
07:49	kilon	and python is way way slower than clojure
07:49	michaelr525	(defn rows [start-at limit]
07:49	michaelr525	(lazy-cat (get-rows limit start-at) (rows limit (+ start-at limit))))
07:50	michaelr525	does this look ok ^^^
07:51	michaelr525	i mean, it doesn't hold onto it's head, does it? ;)
08:00	michaelr525	wow
08:00	michaelr525	it works
08:00	michaelr525	so cool..
08:02	michaelr525	err
08:02	michaelr525	how to stop?
08:02	michaelr525	hehe
08:04	kilon	reboot always works :D
08:05	michaelr525	maybe take-while
08:09	michaelr525	if lazy seq doesn't recurse, why do we need loop recur?
08:11	ejackson	for data not dealing with seqs :)
08:12	michaelr525	such as..
08:14	ejackson	a numeric function: such as say an integration
08:14	michaelr525	(defn rows [limit start-at]
08:14	michaelr525	(lazy-cat (get-rows limit start-at)
08:14	michaelr525	(rows limit (+ start-at limit))))
08:14	michaelr525	why take 1 from the above triggers infinite realization?
08:16	bobry	how can I tell cljsbuild to include a js library in the output file?
08:16	ejackson	bobry: i dunno, i tend to put it into the HTML template
08:17	ejackson	michaelr525: depends on get-rows i guess
08:17	bobry	yup, that'll surely work :)
08:17	bobry	I thought it has :externs option, but I can't find it in the docs
08:17	ejackson	luke vanderhart's articel goes into this, 1 sec
08:18	ejackson	here: http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html
08:19	michaelr525	ejackson: err how does it depend on get-rows? the whole thing seems very lazy to me
08:19	ejackson	well, I dunno what get-rows is/does, it might realise the whole thing
08:20	bobry	ejackson: thanks! that's exactly what I needed :)
08:20	michaelr525	ejackson: it returns a vector of maps (rows from database)
08:21	ejackson	hmm, dunno.
08:22	michaelr525	oh, maybe the repl does automatically?
08:24	ejackson	chunking perhaps
08:24	michaelr525	ah
08:24	michaelr525	yeah, it could be
08:24	michaelr525	damn chunking
08:26	ejackson	ah
08:27	michaelr525	not chunking i think, i replaced get rows with the following and it works as expected now: (defn get-rows [row-limit start-at] [1 2 3])
08:31	michaelr525	ejackson: it happens when get-rows returns an empty seq
08:32	michaelr525	ejackson: how do you explain that?
08:34	ejackson	dunno
08:34	ejackson	:)
08:35	michaelr525	&(lazy-cat [1 2 3] [0])
08:35	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 0)
08:36	michaelr525	&(lazy-cat [1 2 3] [])
08:36	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
08:36	michaelr525	&(lazy-cat [] [])
08:36	lazybot	⇒ ()
08:36	michaelr525	&(defn get-rows [] nil)
08:36	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
08:36	clojurebot	Roger.
08:39	michaelr525	&(let [f1 (fn [] nil) f2 (fn [] (lazy-cat (f1) (f2)))] (take 1 (f2)))
08:39	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: f2 in this context
09:01	Chiron_	Hi, (defn fun [id & {:keys [name phones]}] (println name) (println phones)) phones is a varargs . it could be one value or a lot of values . should I destructure it somehow also?
09:11	mfex	Chiron_: phones can't be both a keyword argument and a varargs. You should pass it a collection if you more than one value for phones
09:23	rguillebert	hi
09:24	rguillebert	is there something equivalent to the haskell "where" clause in clojure ?
09:27	jedmtnman	rguillebert: cond, maybe?
09:27	jedmtnman	,(doc cond)
09:28	clojurebot	"([& clauses]); Takes a set of test/expr pairs. It evaluates each test one at a time. If a test returns logical true, cond evaluates and returns the value of the corresponding expr and doesn't evaluate any of the other tests or exprs. (cond) returns nil."
09:28	jedmtnman	or
09:28	jedmtnman	,(loop)
09:28	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$loop>
09:28	jedmtnman	,(doc loop)
09:28	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); Evaluates the exprs in a lexical context in which the symbols in the binding-forms are bound to their respective init-exprs or parts therein. Acts as a recur target."
09:29	mfex	rguillebert: use (let or (letfn. for both of these the declarations come for their usage, in haskell the declarations in the 'where' are after their usage
09:39	rguillebert	mfex, yes I think that'll do it
09:39	rguillebert	thanks
10:25	glitch99	this is kind of a goofy question - don't know if anyone is in the room - what is the typical clojure/lisp coding style - lots of _ like C? lots of camel case like java and C++? hungarian?
10:25	babilen	glitch99: typically-like-this
10:25	glitch99	lowercase and dash?
10:26	babilen	glitch99: Yes. See http://clojure.github.com/clojure/ for a list of functions in the standard library
10:26	bsteuber	yes except java casing for java interop
10:26	di-csuehs	that is an interesting question...I don't recall seeing a style guide.
10:27	glitch99	awesome :-) thanks everyone!
10:27	babilen	di-csuehs, glitch99: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards
10:27	Vinzent	bsteuber, actually it's not only java interop - any type names should be CamelCased
10:29	babilen	... as should names of protocols (i.a.)
10:34	twhume	So… I'm trying to load Java classes from an array of bytes (being a serialised class) in Clojure. I also need to be able to unload classes, which I think means getting the class loader which loads them garbage-collected. There may be an easier way of doing this than the one I'm trying, which is to gen-class a subclass of ClassLoader and use that. I'm having trouble with gen-class though: I can generate a class OK but it always seems to
10:34	twhume	subclass Object, and not respond to dot-notation method calls.
10:34	twhume	https://gist.github.com/2843627 has the code - (-dummy cg) works just fine, (.dummy cg) doesn't...
10:35	twhume	Any ideas?
10:41	llasram	twhume: Clojure >=1.3 includes a class-loader which may already do what you need. It's used by deftype but gen-class wasn't switched over. https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/eccde24c7fb63679f00c64b3c70c03956f0ce2c3/src/jvm/clojure/lang/DynamicClassLoader.java
10:42	llasram	It's wired in to how Clojure loads classes, with some helpers available on clojure.lang.RT
10:43	llasram	Here's as example I wrote, extending gen-class to use DynamicClassLoader: https://github.com/llasram/shady/blob/master/src/shady/gen_class.clj
10:43	gfredericks	what's the latest strategy for cljs testing?
10:44	twhume	Thanks. I'm quite a Clojure noob, mind if I have a look at that and probably get back to you with more questions?
10:44	llasram	np
10:47	wastrel	hi
10:50	TimMc	dnolen: Ever seen anything like this with core.match? https://www.refheap.com/paste/2937
10:51	TimMc	dnolen: Basically, a match clause is intermittently returning nil, even though it is guaranteed a match.
10:55	SurlyFrog	Hi all, I'm coming to Clojure without any significant Java experience (a decade or so C, Common Lisp, Python, and a few others). I'm wondering if the JVM handles "swapping" or caching large data structures to disk. For example, if you are growing a large data structure in memory, and it gets too large, will the JVM automagically cache portions of it to disk, or will you get out-of-memory exceptions?
10:56	clgv	SurlyFrog: no. If you hit the -Xmx limit the JVM will die with an exception
10:56	SurlyFrog	clgv: okay, thanks...
10:57	SurlyFrog	clgv: is -Xmx a command line option to the JVM?
10:57	clgv	yes
10:57	SurlyFrog	thanks
10:58	cemerick	well, the thread of execution that hits the allocation limit will throw that exception…which can be caught and recovered from. OutOfMemoryErrors don't actually terminate the JVM process.
10:58	clgv	hm right. never tried to catch one yet ;)
10:59	SurlyFrog	cemerick: okay.
11:00	cemerick	,(try (byte-array Integer/MAX_VALUE) (catch OutOfMemoryError e "you're safe!"))
11:00	clojurebot	cemerick: Huh?
11:00	cemerick	wha?
11:00	cemerick	&(try (byte-array Integer/MAX_VALUE) (catch OutOfMemoryError e "you're safe!"))
11:00	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
11:00	cemerick	oh hell
11:00	cemerick	anyway, it works outside of a sandboxed environment
11:00	twhume	llasram: OK, thanks for your help. I now have a class being loaded OK; any idea how I would force it to be unloaded (so that I can load a new class in under the same name)?
11:05	llasram	twhume: My understanding is that you don't explicitly "unload" the class. You load it again w/ a different class loader, which gets a new Class instance representing the new class version
11:05	llasram	These classes are never resolved through normal JVM class resolution, but instead always go through Clojure namespace lookup mechanisms
11:06	twhume	OK, but the class loader in this case is a locally scoped variable inside the load-class function. If I were to pass a new instance of the class loader into that method each time, do you think that would do it?
11:06	twhume	(I'm guessing that the class loader won't be GCed until classes it's loaded are...)
11:15	clgv	twhume: a class has a reference to it's classloader
11:16	twhume	clgv: yup. So the loaded and the class have to go. I can sometimes force them out by doing ns-unmap followed by a GC, but it doesn't seem reliable. I think I'll do something else to work around this… it's quite important for my application.
11:17	clgv	twhume: what is your big picture?
11:17	twhume	As in, what's the app?
11:17	clgv	so to say
11:18	twhume	A bit wacky; I'm writing a "superoptimiser" for Java byte code - essentially, doing an exhaustive search for optimal programs across all possibilities. So I'm generating many classes, loading them, testing each one, testing if it works, and (usually) discarding it.
11:19	gfrederi`	is there a CLJS equivalent to (extend-type Object ...)?
11:19	gfrederi`	(i.e., something that covers all the JS types)
11:20	clgv	twhume: oha, ok.
11:22	matthavener	twhume: have you seen the minikanren presentation on bliptv ?
11:22	dnolen	gfredericks: extend-type default
11:23	twhume	matthavener: nope
11:23	matthavener	those minikanren guys write a program that generates arbitrary programs that result in the number 6
11:23	matthavener	might be interesting to you
11:23	twhume	This one? http://blip.tv/clojure/dan-friedman-and-william-byrd-minikanren-5936333
11:23	matthavener	yes, near the end
11:24	twhume	Thanks very much - I'll give it a look. There have been superoptimisers for specific hardware (SPARC, RS6000, 68000), but none for the JVM...
11:26	gfredericks	dnolen: cool thx
11:28	TimMc	dnolen: Did you see the core.match weirdness I posted?
11:28	TimMc	I can't get a minimal test case since it's nondeterministic...
11:28	dnolen	TimMc: no, there's a lot of core.match weirdness, matching what kind of type?
11:29	TimMc	keywords
11:30	dnolen	TimMc: link or gist?
11:30	TimMc	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/2937 but it doesn't fail reliably (or in isolation?)
11:31	dnolen	TimMc: what is the weirdness the error?
11:32	Chiron_	hi! what is wrong with this http://pastie.org/4002330
11:32	Chiron_	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: server in this context
11:33	dnolen	TimMc: hmm, yeah not sure what's going on and don't have the bandwidth to pursue. Feel free to open a ticket with more details - patch even better of course.
11:35	clgv	Chiron_: the content of your doseq: (1) the ~ (2) there is one pair of parenthesis which is too much
11:35	jcromartie	hooray for -webkit-overflow-scrolling: touch;
11:37	TimMc	dnolen: OK, we'll probably just drop it for now. Macro-expansion of the match clause looks fine -- I can't see how it would fail. If we get anything reproducible I'll open a ticket.
11:37	ezyang	Hello folks. I was wondering if there were any implementations of STM-ized mutable data structures.
11:38	ezyang	Or if this is even a good idea at all.
11:38	dnolen	TimMc: thanks much! Yeah I do not recommmend relying on core.match until it hits beta status.
11:38	dnolen	ezyang: probably not a good idea I'd think.
11:39	ezyang	dnolen: How many references would the structure have to use before it became a bad idea?
11:42	ezyang	Certainly, it wouldn't be "more than one", since the whole point about STM is to deal with multiple references properly.
11:43	S11001001	ezyang: when it comes to collections, there are only three numbers: 0, 1, and many.
11:43	dnolen	ezyang: do you just mean allowing mutable data structures to participate in STM? isn't that what a most STM research has been trying to do all along? (is not an STM expert)
11:43	S11001001	yes, and it's slow as hell
11:44	S11001001	ezyang: so the correct answer is it's fine, as long as your data structure has either 0 or 1 element(s)
11:45	S11001001	do more stuff immutably; STM gets a lot less interesting then
11:47	ezyang	S11001001: OK. The difference is something like 'one STM var per index on data store' to 'one STM var per element stored'
11:47	ezyang	I wonder if there is a middle ground.
12:04	goodieboy	I'm using an agent w/send-off for async http requests. Under what circumstances will my agent "fail", and how to do I completely avoid failure from happening? Use a top-level try/catch in my agent function?
12:06	nDuff	goodieboy: an unhandled exception, and yes... though "completely" is a little strong; there _are_ uncatchable exceptions in the JVM.
12:06	nDuff	goodieboy: ...the proper Right Thing is to check for failure when you're going to interact with the agent, and deal with it then.
12:07	goodieboy	nDuff: ahh, right before I attempt to call send-off?
12:09	nDuff	That's what I generally do. That said, there _is_ a race condition there, so it's probably not the best pattern.
12:12	nDuff	goodieboy: ...catching the exception from trying to do a send to a failed agent, and handling it there, would be the safer thing.
12:13	nDuff	goodieboy: ...that said, if you aren't checking the value the agent holds anyhow, there's a decent chance that you're doing something for which a different concurrency mechanism would be more appropriate.
12:13	nDuff	s/doing something/doing is something/
12:18	goodieboy	nDuff: yes, you're right. I don't care about the value of the agent. Should I be doing something else?
12:21	nDuff	goodieboy: ...to quote Joy of Clojure: "In cases where you just need a bunch of worker threads banging away on some work, or you have a specific long-running thread polling or blocking on events, or any other situation where it doesn't seem useful that the Agent maintain a value [...] there's every reasot to consider using a Java Thread directly, or a Java executor"
12:22	nDuff	goodieboy: (if you have your own copy -- this discussion is in 11.3.5, pages 254-255)
12:23	goodieboy	nDuff: ahh ok, thanks
12:23	nDuff	...except the book doesn't contain that typo :)
12:23	nDuff	s/reasot/reason/
12:25	S11001001	is the pool used for sends accessible?
12:26	duck1123	if you're using the new version of lamina, it has some nice helper functions for managing tasks on thread pools
12:26	nDuff	S11001001: the executors are public static on clojure.lang.Agent, so it's _possible_ to access them
12:26	nDuff	S11001001: whether it's _wise_...
12:29	technoma`	planning on cutting a lein release today
12:29	technoma`	anything else that should be considered for it?
12:30	technoma`	this one is going out mostly in order to fix a bug in the repl and add support for encrypted credentials
12:31	clgv	lein2 or lein1.7.x?
12:31	technoma`	2.0.0-preview5
13:02	pbuckley	Anyone know how I can use C-x-e (emacs slime) in a function that relies on args or values from destructuring without having to temporarily def those args/bindings?
13:03	pbuckley	like how do I test the inner fn "some-fn" in (defn build? [some-arg] (some-fn some-arg)) without having to temporarily do (def some-arg "foo")?
13:04	pbuckley	by "test" I mean C-x-e
13:17	lpetit	hello
13:19	tmciver	pbuckley: I don't believe you can. C-x C-e just 'evaluates' code, it does not call the fn.
13:19	locojay	hi anything similar to python os.path.join (to make sure between unix and win paths...)
13:19	tmciver	pbuckley: To test your inner fn you'd just have to rely on test for the outer fn, or break out the inner fn.
13:19	joegallo	pbuckley: you could C-c C-e instead, and then type (build? "whatever-arg-you-want")
13:20	joegallo	or (some-fn whatever-arg), for that matter
13:20	raek	locojay: yes. (clojure.java.io/file "foo" "bar" "baz")
13:20	locojay	thnks
13:20	raek	that produces a File object (which represents a path)
13:20	lpetit	Shameless plug: Counterclockwise (the Clojure Eclipse Plugin) now has decent leiningen 2 support in its (quite stable) beta version. With the ability to create new projects via a wizard wrapping lein new new (so you also get templates for free)
13:24	lpetit	For those interested, more info here: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojuredev-users/UhfnjBvIips/discussion
13:25	Bronsa	cool lpetit
13:30	gfrederi`	why would naive-recursive-fib be 20 times slower in clojure than java?
13:31	amalloy	gfrederi`: best explanation: you're doing something wrong? i certainly can't guess without seeing any code
13:31	gfrederi`	amalloy: okay I'll pull it together
13:31	amalloy	eg, boxing is going to cost you a little, but not 20x
13:31	pbuckley	tmciver, joegallo, thanks, looks like I just have to break out the inner fn
13:33	gfrederi`	amalloy: refheap.com/paste/2944
13:34	gfrederi`	amalloy: I guess the clojure could be changed to case?
13:35	amalloy	cemerick: OOM errors can trash your JVM pretty badly though, unless every thread knows how to deal with them at any time (pretty unlikely). thread 1 allocates almost-all the memory, then thread 2 gets an OOM and dies, then thread 1 gets an OOM, recovers, and throws out its excess crap
13:36	cemerick	amalloy: fair point
13:38	technoma`	is it or is it not idiotic that exceeding your thread limit throws an out of memory exception?
13:38	amalloy	technoma`: the JVM just can't remember all the dang threads you want
13:39	amalloy	gfrederi`: and that's 20x faster in java? even on clojure 1.2 i wouldn't expect that big a difference
13:40	amalloy	you could try hinting with ^int, on x and on the parameter vector (to hint the return type)
13:41	gfrederi`	amalloy: I'll verify the runtimes in just a sec
13:42	gfrederi`	amalloy: running (time (fib 40)) in clojure prints ~7 seconds
13:42	amalloy	oh cool, case actually has code in it to special-case "all the test clauses are for ints, don't bother hashing anything"
13:43	gfrederi`	`time java ...` runs in 0.75 sec INCLUDING jvm startup time
13:43	gfrederi`	amalloy: switching to case cuts it down to ~6.5 sec
13:43	jcromartie	gfrederi`: are you counting the Clojure startup time?
13:43	gfrederi`	jcromartie: nope, running the time macro from a repl
13:44	jcromartie	ah ok
13:44	amalloy	&(-> (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0 1])) (nth 40)) ;; just checking the number
13:44	lazybot	⇒ 102334155
13:44	kmicu	&(time (-> (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0 1])) (nth 40)))
13:44	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core
13:45	gfrederi`	kmicu: obviously that will be much faster
13:45	Raynes	Man, I sure wish I knew what caused that.
13:45	Raynes	$login
13:46	lazybot	You've been logged in.
13:46	Raynes	$reload
13:46	lazybot	Reloaded successfully.
13:46	Raynes	$`foo
13:46	Raynes	&`foo
13:46	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core
13:46	amalloy	gfrederi`: adding ^long hints speeds it up 10x
13:48	bordatoue	hello
13:48	bordatoue	is it safe to use double as a key in hashmap
13:49	S11001001	bordatoue: what's safe?
13:49	kmicu	in cljs repl it takes 3ms in my clj repl 8 ms :)
13:49	S11001001	&({1.0 42} 1)
13:49	lazybot	⇒ nil
13:51	gfrederi`	amalloy: oh we tried with Long; yeah primitives are much better
13:52	Bronsa	yes
13:52	gfrederi`	&(let [x 1.7e90] ({x 12} x))
13:52	lazybot	⇒ 12
13:52	bordatoue	S11001001: safe in the sense, will there be key misses
13:52	bordatoue	when computing hash
13:52	gfrederi`	bordatoue: only if your doubles aren't quite equal
13:52	gfrederi`	bordatoue: can you use ratios instead of doubles?
13:54	bordatoue	i can try
13:55	gfrederi`	ratios are much less scary
13:55	bordatoue	but is it recommended to use double as key in hashmap, what is the function used to create hashcode
13:55	gfrederi`	amalloy: with case and primitive typehints it is only 3 times slower
13:56	gfrederi`	maybe for var lookup?
13:58	technoma`	bordatoue: if you're performing lookup on a map from Clojure functions the numbers will hash correctly. if you're using Java methods to get at them then the required broken Java semantics will apply.
13:58	bordatoue	technoma`: thanks,
13:58	bordatoue	technoma`: Could you please tell me how java would result in incorrect result when using double
13:59	bordatoue	technoma`: Basically i just want to know how different it will be
13:59	technoma`	I don't really know the details; I just know Java requires you to confirm to incorrect semantics if you claim to support certain interfaces.
13:59	bordatoue	technoma`: You could point me to some resource I can read , it would be great
13:59	technoma`	I think you can have both (Long. 1) and (Integer. 1) as separate keys or something?
14:00	technoma`	no idea how doubles play into that
14:00	gfrederi`	oddly type-hinting the parameter vector slowed it down significantly
14:00	gfrederi`	and eleminating the var lookup doesn't help either
14:01	amalloy	technomancy: that got fixed in 1.4 though
14:01	amalloy	maps now use equiv instead of equals for key uniqueness
14:01	technoma`	amalloy: I thought the clojure functions were fixed in 1.3 but the java methods were still broken due to the requirements of the java interfaces?
14:02	amalloy	the clojure functions certainly weren't fixed in 1.3 - that was when the breakage became obvious, because longs became the default box
14:03	amalloy	whether the java methods are broken, i don't know about
14:03	technoma`	oh, I'm talking about Integer/Long equivalence; primitives are another can of worms
14:04	bordatoue	Can anyone suggest a method to check if using double is safe as key in java hashmap
14:04	amalloy	as am i
14:05	amalloy	i think
14:05	amalloy	bordatoue: step 1 has got to be "decide what you mean by that question"
14:06	amalloy	,clojure-version
14:06	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
14:06	amalloy	&clojure-version
14:06	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
14:06	amalloy	i hate you both
14:06	hiredman	you want 1.5?
14:06	bordatoue	amalloy: when i say safe, it means something would work consistently
14:07	amalloy	hiredman: 1.3
14:07	hiredman	pffft
14:07	hiredman	1.3 is bad and no one should use it
14:07	amalloy	i agree!
14:07	amalloy	technomancy claimed something worked in 1.3, and i was hoping to prove him wrong
14:10	S11001001	bordatoue: it isn't nondeterministic, you will definitely either get a key match or a key mismatch for any two values
14:11	bordatoue	S11001001: could there be a key miss
14:12	S11001001	bordatoue: well you'd want key misses, wouldn't you, otherwise what's the point of a map?
14:13	S11001001	ok, I'll put it this way
14:13	bordatoue	S11001001: due to floating point precision can there be key misses
14:14	S11001001	you can't deal with precision and have =
14:14	S11001001	let me formalize
14:14	S11001001	forall a b c in values where c is not nil. (= a b) implies ({a c} b) => c and (not= a b) implies ({a c} b) => nil.
14:17	bordatoue	S11001001: thanks
14:17	bordatoue	I will do some research on it
14:39	locojay	anyone using congomongo . when doing an update! call i keep on getting <#WriteResult N/A> on stdout. anyway i can prevent the output
14:43	amalloy	locojay: stop calling println on the result of the update? there's really no other reason it would print
14:44	gtrak`	hmm, is swank supposed to be able to M-. to a protocol def?
14:45	technoma`	I don't think so
14:58	technoma`	emezeske: this is weird; someone is claiming authorship of lein-cljsbuild in the comments: http://technomancy.us/158
14:58	technoma`	is that a spam-bot copying your content from another source?
14:59	emezeske	technoma`: that it is. I did write that comment, months ago, on some other blog
14:59	emezeske	crazy!
15:00	technoma`	did you misspell "plugin" in your comment as well? =)
15:00	technoma`	weird that there's no URL associated with the post
15:00	emezeske	I hope I didn't :(
15:00	TimMc	Nope.
15:01	kilon	that make no sense, what would be the benefit for a spam bot ?
15:01	TimMc	It is probably doing that as a probe. Some spambots will use unique strings so they can do a web search later to find out if their comment was approved.
15:01	locojay	amalloy: i don't have any print at all https://gist.github.com/2845411 line 5 does the output
15:01	technoma`	kilon: possibly testing the anti-spam defenses?
15:01	amalloy	emezeske: no hits for "leiningen plguin" anywhere on the web
15:01	technoma`	yeah
15:01	technoma`	emezeske is cleared =)
15:01	kilon	ah i see
15:01	TimMc	The original: http://ubercode.de/blog/settling-down-with-clojurescript
15:01	TimMc	The bot stripped out all tags, too.
15:01	technoma`	damn; better wipe that comment before the bot finds it
15:02	amalloy	locojay: (update! ...) returns a WriteResult, so if you're just printing the result of that (say, in the repl)...
15:02	technoma`	clever bugger; the content almost makes sense
15:02	locojay	runing via lein run and main
15:02	kilon	companies with too much free time in their hands
15:02	kilon	no wonder why global economy goes to hell
15:02	technoma`	in fact if it had been on my most recent post and I didn't already know emezeske then I wouldn't have suspected a thing
15:03	raek	I vagely recall that "lein run" prints the result of the -main function for some reason
15:03	emezeske	technoma`: That is a clever way to keep your comment from being deleted
15:03	technoma`	hm; that explains the nonsense alphanumerics in the URL field too
15:03	technoma`	it's a token for checking up on later
15:03	TimMc	indeed
15:03	TimMc	technoma`: Alter the token, cause havoc?
15:04	technoma`	TimMc: mwahaha
15:04	technoma`	I've heard of people writing tarpits that have slowly-increasing latencies to gum up the bots
15:04	solussd_	I'm getting a compiler error "can't recur here" from clojurescript- I've narrowed it down to this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4fc7bf16e4b09302d009a309 could anyone tell me why I can't recursively call that function?
15:05	hiredman	there is no recur in that function
15:06	hiredman	solussd_: what makes you think it is that function?
15:06	hiredman	(my guess it is your code calling that function)
15:06	solussd_	hiredman: b/c taking it out makes the compiler error go away. :)
15:06	solussd_	in fact, removing the (map?) condition stops the error
15:06	emezeske	solussd_: are you up to date with your compiler version?
15:07	hiredman	doseq may be broken in clojure script
15:07	emezeske	solussd_: I know I've encountered that before, but I can't remember where :(
15:07	emezeske	doseq works just fine
15:08	emezeske	Oh, I think maybe cond is not supported in older clojurescript versions (?)
15:08	solussd_	emezeske: it compiles w/o the map? condition though
15:08	dnolen	emezeske: cond has been there since the beginning far as I know.
15:08	solussd_	it's definitely the recursive call that is making it blow up
15:08	emezeske	dnolen: Okay, color me crazy then
15:08	solussd_	i'm using the version of clojurescript pulled in by noir-cljs: [org.clojure/clojurescript "0.0-1236"]
15:09	amalloy	emezeske: early versions didn't have case
15:09	emezeske	amalloy: Thank you for preserving my sanity, "case" is definitely what I was thinking of
15:09	dnolen	solussd_: create a minimal reproducible case, open a ticket
15:10	solussd_	dnolen: k.
15:19	piranha	hi, if I have a question regarding clojurescript one and lein, should I ask it here, go to #clojurescript or to #leiningen? :)
15:20	kilon	you can ask it here too
15:21	piranha	sure. I'm trying to get cljs one up and running, but then (probably because I have lein2) none of the examples work
15:21	piranha	for example, they say run "lein repl" and then "(go)"
15:22	piranha	function go is not defined in my repl
15:22	piranha	dev-server is not defined as well
15:22	piranha	and I'm a bit lost already what to do :\
15:23	technoma`	have you tried lein-cljsbuild?
15:23	piranha	hm, nope
15:23	dnolen	piranha: CLJS one has seen much activity lately, it's pretty out of date as far CLJS far as I know.
15:23	amalloy	seancorfield: i'm digging through congomongo to remove the remaining reflection warnings. there are a number of cases like (.method ^GridFS f arg), where arg can be one of several types
15:23	dnolen	has not seen
15:23	amalloy	i have a macro in useful, multi-hinted-let, that can easily expand to something like (condp instance? arg File (.method ^GridFS f ^File arg), InputStream (.method ^GridFS f ^InputStream arg) ...). would you prefer that i (a) add a dependency on useful in project.clj, (b) copy/paste the macro into congomongo, or (c) just do it by hand every time?
15:24	dnolen	piranha: best to start with lein-cljsbuild at this point
15:24	technoma`	piranha: yeah, lein-cljsbuild seems a lot more usable
15:24	piranha	dnolen: ah, so it's better to skip it and just do...
15:24	piranha	ok, I see, thanks :)
15:33	antares_	seancorfield, amalloy: Monger uses helper protocols to coerce things like arg in this example (where possible)
15:34	antares_	other clojurewerkz.org projects do the same, it works pretty well (although there are cases where something like multi-hinted-let would still be necessary)
15:35	amalloy	antares_: so does congomongo in other cases, but for example GridFS/createFile accepts either a byte[] or a File or an InputStream, and there's no zero-overhead way to coerce those into a single thing
15:36	antares_	amalloy: yeah, I am not saying helper protocols are zero overhead. But it is OK for most needs (less overhead than reflective calls). Here's what monger uses, FYI: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/monger/gridfs.clj
15:39	amalloy	antares_: the other thing i'm doing is removing all the unnecessary typehints from congomongo - looks like monger could use some of the same treatment :)
15:39	antares_	amalloy: yeah. Monger was my 2nd clojure library, it has a lot of things I'd like to clean up. Pull requests are welcome :)
15:46	clojure-newcomer	hi guys, I'm trying to do multi method dispatch on a key… I found a working example that dispatches on the value of a key ':name', but my data has arbitrary keys… http://pastebin.com/wpjaBKWU
15:46	clojure-newcomer	I've made a failed attempt below the working example
15:49	dnolen	clojure-newcomer: make key return the relevant value for a particular map.
15:50	dnolen	clojure-newcomer: if you're looking for the general case, not possible with multimethods - would require predicate dispatch.
15:50	clojure-newcomer	dnolen: I think you are saying I need to change my data structure because its not possible to do what I am trying to do ?
15:51	dnolen	clojure-newcomer: changing your data structure won't help you.
15:51	dnolen	clojure-newcomer: it sounds like you want different methods to run if a key is present
15:52	clojure-newcomer	dnolen: yes I think so, so a certain function called if a key ':id' is found, different function for ':blurb' etc etc
15:52	dnolen	clojure-newcomer: not possible with multimethods
15:52	clojure-newcomer	dnolen: nuts, thanks for saving me time anyhow :-)
15:53	clojure-newcomer	dnolen: I think I can flip it on its head and work with the value anyhow, thx for the help
15:53	ezyang	Can someone help me out: I can't find where Clojure's jvm code keeps track of nested transactions.
15:54	ezyang	runInTransaction seems to always attempt to commit the transaction at the end.
15:54	ezyang	What am I missing?
15:55	TimMc	Are you sure they nest?
15:55	TimMc	Maybe dosync always joins any open transaction.
15:55	ezyang	there are claims on the Internet that they do. But I might be wrong :-)
15:55	hiredman	they nest
15:56	hiredman	ezyang: have a look at clojure.core/sync
15:57	ezyang	That just calls LockingTransaction.runInTransaction
15:57	ezyang	I'm staring at that code right now.
15:57	hiredman	right, which looks for a locking transaction where?
15:58	ezyang	So, it checks if there is a current transaction. But then regardless of whether or not there was a running transaction, it invokes t.run(fn)
15:58	ezyang	I think that's wrong. I also think that this will have the wrong semantics if a retry is necessary.
15:59	hiredman	why do you think it is wrong?
15:59	hiredman	a transaction joins the current transaction if there is one already running
16:00	ezyang	Yes, that is correct.
16:00	ezyang	The problem is what happens when the inner transaction finishes.
16:00	hiredman	what about it?
16:00	ezyang	If you straightline the code, you get something like:
16:01	ezyang	transaction.set(t = new LockingTransaction()); ... /* no set */; fn.call; t.run(fn2); .... t.run(fn1)
16:02	hiredman	that is not correct
16:02	ezyang	Unless I'm super misunderstanding what t.run does, I think it finalizes the transaction
16:02	ezyang	I think that's what the code is doing.
16:02	hiredman	do you have code that demos the problem?
16:02	ezyang	No. It'd probably be a very fiddly race to cause too.
16:03	ezyang	oh, actually, no, this should be pretty simple.
16:03	ezyang	just a sec.
16:03	hiredman	you cannot "straighline" the code, it is nested
16:03	ezyang	hiredman: What I mean by "straightline" is saying what a hypothetical execution would step through.
16:04	hiredman	that is incorrect in that sense too
16:04	ezyang	OK, help me understand why this doesn't happen.
16:04	hiredman	fn1 would start executing before fn2 and finish executing after fn2 finishes
16:04	hiredman	(where fn2 is a nested transaction)
16:04	ezyang	No, that's not right.
16:04	hiredman	it is right
16:05	ezyang	fn.call is responsible for calling the function.
16:05	hiredman	fn2 code is run from inside fn1
16:05	ezyang	Yes, I inlined that in my example.
16:06	hiredman	(sync nil (X (sync nil Y))) turns in to (.../runTransaction (fn [] (X (../runTransaction (fn [] Y)))))
16:06	ezyang	Yes.
16:07	hiredman	so the outermost fn is fn1, and the inner most is fn2
16:07	ezyang	So when you enter the inner runTransaction, you run fun2's code, and then run t.run(fun2)
16:07	hiredman	right
16:07	hiredman	which happens while fn1 is running
16:07	ezyang	I think running t.run(fun2) finishes up the transaction.
16:07	ezyang	and then when fn1 finishes running, it runs t.run(fun1)
16:08	devijvers	greetings, can anybody tell me how attribute selectors work in enlive?
16:08	hiredman	ezyang: no
16:08	hiredman	they are nested, t.run(fn2) cannot happen unless t.run(fn1) is running
16:09	ezyang	OK, let me state my assumptions.
16:09	ezyang	1) fn.call() in runInTransaction is responsible for running the code inside fn
16:10	ezyang	2) If fn contains a runInTransaction, when fn is finished running, all of the lines in runInTransaction will have run.
16:11	ezyang	3) In our example, we first runInTransaction on fn1. fn.call() causes fn1 to be executed, and doesn't return until fn1 is done executing.
16:12	hiredman	it depends for some cases the fn.call line is never reached
16:12	hiredman	in the facse of the outmost transaction the fn is run inside the call to t.run(fn) not fn.call()
16:12	hiredman	because info will be null
16:12	ezyang	OK, that is true.
16:13	ezyang	3') In our example, we first runInTransaction on fn1. t.run(fn1) causes fn1 to be executed, and that f.call() doesn't return until fn1 is done executing.
16:13	ezyang	combining (3') and (2), because fn1 contains a runInTransaction, when /that/ f.call() line returns, all the lines in runInTransaction on fn2 have finished executing.
16:14	hiredman	correct
16:14	ezyang	OK.
16:14	hiredman	so what happens for fn2 is it goes right to t.run(fn2)
16:14	ezyang	4) A line of that runInTransaction is t.run(fn2)
16:14	ezyang	aha! return is short circuiting.
16:14	ezyang	Ok, we're good.
16:14	hiredman	eyeroll
16:15	ezyang	Sorry, this is why I came and asked :-)
16:18	devijvers	hey, can anybody help me with attribute selectors in enlive?
16:18	amalloy	~anyone
16:18	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
16:19	devijvers	I want to write this selector: select[name=somename]
16:20	ystael	What is the most idiomatic way to filter a seq by a predicate which may have side effects so is required to be evaluated exactly once for each seq element? (I don't care _when_ the predicate is evaluated, only that it is at most once each)
16:20	ystael	s/at most/exactly/
16:21	bobry	emezeske: is it possible to pass --define to closure compiler?
16:21	emezeske	bobry: Nope.
16:21	bobry	ouch <_<
16:21	bobry	why?
16:21	clojurebot	bobry: because you can't handle the truth!
16:22	bobry	turns out the only way to override 'goog.LOCALE' is pass --define goog.LOCALE=...
16:22	emezeske	bobry: Well, for one, it's not called from the command line, so passing command line arguments doesn't really make sense
16:22	TimMc	Sure it does.
16:23	emezeske	bobry: And nobody's created a nice way to set all of the google closure options in the clojurescript compiler
16:23	mstump	I'm getting an exception which doesn't make sense. I'm passing a string to a Java constructor, and I keep getting "java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.Comparable" which doesn't make sense because String implements Comparable. Any ideas?
16:23	TimMc	mstump: Look at the [L
16:23	kmicu	bobry: you have fix for that http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-77
16:23	TimMc	That means you have an array of something.
16:23	emezeske	bobry: I'd love to have all of the google closure options exposed, they're just not. There's about a billion of them.
16:23	hiredman	mstump: you are not calling the constructor you think are calling
16:23	TimMc	mstump: I'll hazard a guess that you're running into varargs.
16:24	mstump	That constructor does take a vargs Comparable
16:24	mstump	what should I be doing?
16:24	bobry	I see.. and thanks kmicu ;)
16:24	TimMc	Passing in an array.
16:24	TimMc	Varargs is a lie.
16:25	TimMc	&(class (into-array ["foo"])) might do it
16:25	lazybot	⇒ [Ljava.lang.String;
16:26	devijvers	how do I write this selector in enlive? select[name=somename]?
16:27	locojay	if i do map #(some funciton) on a lazy seq nothing happens do i have to use a doall ?
16:28	emezeske	bobry: This is where the google closure options get set. Very basic at the moment. 'Twould be awesome for this to be configurable, maybe via a callback that sets the options: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/closure.clj#L76
16:28	devijvers	locojay: yes
16:29	devijvers	locojay: if you use map as a replacement of a loop you're better off with for
16:30	dnolen	emezeske: bobry: patches welcome
16:30	mstump	That was it. Thank you! That was a horrible fcking exception. I want my morning back. Someone should be violently penetrated with a cactus.
16:31	locojay	devijvers : thanks. i was planning to use pmap and and upload function to my db to upload in parrallel so i m not sure if for is better
16:32	bobry	dnolen: great! btw, is there a reason, cljs doesn't accept pull requests?
16:32	dnolen	bobry: because that's not approved Clojure process.
16:33	emezeske	dnolen: I wish I had more time to allocate to the cljs compiler... Maybe someday soon. :)
16:33	bobry	oh, where can I read more about the process?
16:33	dnolen	bobry: on the Confluence pages.
16:33	bobry	emezeske: I like the callback idea, can you submit a patch? :)
16:34	emezeske	bobry: Unfortunately, my time to interest ratio in that particular feature is rather low :(
16:34	kmicu	dnolen: i can write a patch, but my idiomatic clojure sucks for now :] and jonase/kibit it's not so good to fix that :P and seriously what is wrong with this http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-77
16:34	bobry	except for patch formatting :)
16:36	devijvers	locojay: can't think of a better solution than pmap
16:36	devijvers	how do I write this selector in enlive? select[name=somename]?
16:37	bobry	kmicu: I think this needs a more generic solution, the patch in CLJS-77 only covers --define
16:37	locojay	devijvers: not at the moment as i m a total novice
16:37	dnolen	bobry: kmicu: patch looks ok and applies - just confirmation from someone that it works for them.
16:39	dnolen	bobry: would welcome a more generic patch.
16:41	bobry	dnolen: sure, should I create a separate issue?
16:44	dnolen	bobry: feel free, have you sent in your CA?
16:44	TimMc	devijvers: Doesn't the Enlive wiki have an example of that?
16:46	devijvers	TimMc: thx!! found it on the wiki: these selectors requre double brackets, now it works
16:47	bobry	dnolen: nope, not yet, can you merge the patch from CLJS-77, while the CA flies all the way from Russia? :)
16:48	dnolen	bobry: if you can confirm that it actually works
16:48	bobry	okay, let me check then
16:53	devth	anyone know if clojure.contrib.cond ever got a replacement? looking for a cond-let
16:58	devth	if there's not a replacement for an old contrib, what's the correct way of making one?
17:00	kmicu	devth: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Moving+Projects+Into+Contrib
17:01	devth	kmicu: thanks, but doesn't that only apply to 1.2 and below?
17:02	devth	also, i'm not the original author. i just want an old contrib to use in my project.
17:03	S11001001	(<<- (if-let [x whatever] x) (if-let [y whatever] y) otherwise)
17:03	S11001001	trivial expansion target, combined with flipped ->>
17:06	coventry`	What's the status of clojure in clojure? Is there a public repository for it?
17:06	dnolen	coventry`: ClojureScript is effectively C-in-C
17:07	technomancy	coventry`: there hasn't been much movement on replacing the Java in Clojure with Clojure
17:08	coventry`	I read that the project was blocking on an inefficiency in Clojure's object creation (http://blog.n01se.net/blog-n01se-net-p-41.html) Is that still the case?
17:09	dnolen	coventry`: that is very old, the mechanisms for building on host types are already in place.
17:11	coventry`	Thanks. So the recent work on speeding up operations on native ClojureScript object operations (the benchmark graphs which were posted here recently), is that at the clojure-in-clojure level, or is that hand-tuned js?
17:12	dnolen	conventry`: barring some 7 lines of interop, nothing in ClojureScript written in JS.
17:13	dnolen	conventry`: the compiler is tuned to emit optimal JS
17:13	hiredman	dnolen: once the clojure datastructures are replaced with onces written in clojure ported from clojurescript implementations then I will buy that
17:13	coventry`	Thanks for the info.
17:13	clojurebot	We live to serve.
17:14	coventry`	You too, clojurebot. :-)
17:14	dnolen	hiredman: if you want to wait for that, shrug
17:15	hiredman	dnolen: until then clojurescript is just "clojurescript in clojure"
17:15	hiredman	clojurescript isn't selfhosting
17:15	hiredman	neither is clojure
17:18	dnolen	hiredman: more shrug :)
17:20	technomancy	I'll believe it when I see (ns clojure.var)
17:20	hiredman	dnolen: so why keep saying "clojurescript is effectively clojure-in-clojure"?
17:20	hiredman	clojurescript is not clojure so it cannot be substituted as either instance of clojure in that expression
17:21	SurlyFrog	Can someone double check me. If a function is reading an atom, and during the course of the function, it is swapped out by another thread that changes the atom, the first function does not re-read the atom. Correct?
17:21	hiredman	and even if it could, you can't do it for both because clojurescript is written in clojure
17:21	dnolen	hiredman: because most of the language constructs are written in itself? is Clojure all the lame limitations imposed by the JVM? I think not.
17:21	brehaut	SurlyFrog: yes
17:21	hiredman	technomancy: (ns clojure.lang) (deftype Var [...])
17:22	SurlyFrog	brehaut: thanks :-)
17:22	S11001001	SurlyFrog: read via deref, right
17:22	dnolen	hiredman: and of course vice versa (limitations) for CLJS
17:22	technomancy	hiredman: yeah yeah--backwards compatibility; who needs it =)
17:22	hiredman	dnolen: clojure is specificly targeted at the jvm, clojurescript is specificly target at js
17:22	hiredman	they are not the same thing
17:23	hiredman	http://clojure.org/jvm_hosted
17:23	dnolen	hiredman: is Clojure a language or an implementation?
17:23	hiredman	sigh
17:24	dnolen	hiredman: do any of the things in Compiler.java that's not portable make any difference to the language?
17:24	hiredman	do you really want be to start quoting rhickey on the subject to you?
17:24	hiredman	he went through this entire thing with clojure on the clr
17:24	dnolen	hiredman: uh, what quote?
17:25	hiredman	dnolen: lemme grep then
17:25	pipeline	clojure on the clr could be a cool thing but it wouldn't be clojure anymore
17:25	dnolen	pipeline: ClojureCLR exists
17:26	clojure-newcomer	hey guys… I'm using clj-time to try to get a DB field like '1065691975' converted into a decent format… trouble is I am getting 'No instant converter found for type: java.lang.Integer'
17:26	clojure-newcomer	can I convert this Integer to a Long in clojure ?
17:27	clojure-newcomer	I had thought to use 'from-long'
17:27	brehaut	,(class (long (Integer. 1)))
17:27	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
17:27	miceiken	First time with clojure here, how can I comment a larger segment of code
17:27	brehaut	but i dont think thast actually answering the question
17:27	miceiken	instead of ;; each line
17:28	clojure-newcomer	brehaut: thanks!
17:28	TimMc	miceiken: There's no true multiline comment.
17:28	TimMc	miceiken: However, #_ will make the reader ignore the next (valid!) form, and (comment ...) is a macro that will replace multiple valid forms with nil.
17:28	@rhickey	http://vote.jax-awards.com/
17:29	TimMc	lol @ Jenkins
17:30	kmicu	where is thinkrelevance? :)
17:31	TimMc	This Restructure thing is such a Java-ish thing.
17:31	sjl	Is it possible to use swank-clojure (the lein plugin thing) with Clojure 1.4? Even if I require clojure 1.4 in my project's project.clj 'lein swank' always seems to produce a 1.3 repl
17:31	S11001001	,(+ #_#_3 7 11)
17:31	clojurebot	11
17:32	vijaykiran	sjl: which version of lein are you using ?
17:32	sjl	vijaykiran: 2.0.0-preview4
17:33	kmicu	hiredman: :dnolen 10:43-12.xx http://blip.tv/clojure/rich-hickey-unveils-clojurescript-5399498, so David was right
17:33	vijaykiran	sjl: lein repl is also giving 1.3 ?
17:33	sjl	vijaykiran: yeah
17:34	vijaykiran	sjl: I just created a sample project with 1.4/lein2-prev-3
17:35	vijaykiran	sjl: seems to work fine clojure-version is 1.4
17:35	hiredman	kmicu: uh, "the compiler itself is written in clojure"
17:35	sjl	what/where is clojure-version defined?
17:35	vijaykiran	sjl: may be the deps you have in the project bringing different clojure version ?
17:35	bobry	dnolen: nope, the patch doesn't work
17:35	vijaykiran	sjl: type it directly into repl
17:36	jhulten	My googlefoo is failiing. How do I call a clojure function dynamically? for instance (let [name "action"] (execute (str "do-" name) arg) => (do-action arg)
17:36	dnolen	bobry: thanks for verifying.
17:37	hiredman	kmicu: "when you write macros for clojurescript, you write them in clojure" etc etc etc
17:37	bobry	kmicu: are you the author of the patch for CLJS-77?
17:37	sjl	oh cute, clojure.math.combinatorics and clojure.math.numeric-tower both required 1.3.0, so it silently ignored my 1.4.0 requirement in project.clj
17:37	technomancy	ugh; version ranges
17:38	technomancy	any project that uses version ranges needs to have hell of bugs filed against it
17:38	vijaykiran	sjl: ^^ :)
17:38	amalloy	alternatively, a plague of locusts
17:38	sjl	I still want a language that enforces semantic versioning at the language level somehow
17:39	amalloy	sjl: that's probably harder than the halting problem, just fyi
17:39	technomancy	you could always take the go approach: never introduce a backwards-incompatible change ever
17:39	sjl	yeah, the "don't break your users' code" approach is a fairly solid one
17:39	technomancy	also more difficult than the halting problem though
17:40	hiredman	shrug you mean the people who get to use your code for free?
17:40	hiredman	you should go out of your way to keep their code running?
17:40	sjl	hiredman: yes, because they're humans and wasting their lives is a dick move
17:40	`rand`-AFK	jhulten: use (symbol)
17:41	sjl	at least put a "don't use this project if you care about your sanity" warning label if you're going to break things a lot -- that's totally fine
17:41	hiredman	sjl: wasting yours working around their faulty assumptions is better?
17:41	emezeske	sjl: Nobody is forcing users to upgrade to a newer version of the language
17:41	sjl	emezeske: yeah I'm sure all the new libraries will continue to release security fixes compatible with old versions forever
17:41	sjl	hiredman: yes, it's called being a nice person
17:41	emezeske	sjl: They can always keep using the old version. If they want all the cool features or security fixes from a new version, they can choose whether it's worth making things work against breaking changes
17:41	nDuff	sjl: eh? The clojure version you require in your project.clj should override what your dependencies specify
17:42	sjl	nDuff: that's what I thought, but it doesn't
17:42	kmicu	bobry: nope, I only have used some solution based on that diff in ClojureScript One
17:42	sjl	emezeske: alternatively, library authors can grow up and care about backwards compatibility and everyone wins
17:42	amalloy	nDuff: not if version ranges are involved. thus, the locusts/bugs
17:42	nDuff	sjl: I'm really _very_ sure that, under normal circumstances, it does. I have dependencies which specify 1.2.0, and I very certainly get 1.4.0
17:42	emezeske	sjl: Are you the author of an open source library?
17:43	nDuff	sjl: ...it'd be interesting to look at the project.clj or pom.xml files for the relevant bits of tooling.
17:43	sjl	emezeske: yeah, a whole bunch, which I use Semantic versioning for
17:43	amalloy	if your dependency specified [1.2.0] instead of 1.2.0, then you would not get 1.4.0 no matter what your project.clj says, nDuff
17:43	emezeske	sjl: Then you know how much work it is. I also try hard for backwards compat.
17:43	emezeske	sjl: But sometimes that weight can build up and drag you down
17:43	sjl	emezeske: it's really not that much work to write a few wrapper functions to preserve backwards compatibility
17:43	nDuff	amalloy: nod, which is why I noted that it'd be interesting to actually look at the relevant files.
17:43	emezeske	sjl: I beg to differ.
17:44	hiredman	backwards compatibility is just another trade off
17:44	emezeske	hiredman: Exactly
17:44	emezeske	hiredman: Time spent on backwards compat is not spent on cool new stuff
17:44	nDuff	sjl: It depends. As I understand it, rhickey tries hard to stay backwards compatible, but only with behaviors he explicitly documented; anything which happens to fall out of the current implementation but isn't documented is liable to change at any time w/o notice.
17:44	emezeske	hiredman: Both are desirable, and it's a balancing act like everything else.
17:45	hiredman	the dick move is pretending you haven't made a trade off
17:45	sjl	nDuff: 1.4 doesn't seem to bad, 1.3 was a mess
17:45	technomancy	someone should write a lein plugin that tells you which of your dependencies have version ranges and opens your browser to the bug report page for those libraries
17:45	nDuff	technomancy++
17:45	hiredman	technomancy: people should use their version ranged deps via polycosm!
17:45	sjl	technomancy: if library specifies a range, will lein deps :tree show you the range or just a single number?
17:45	Chousuke	in Clojure's case, I think all backwards-incompatible changes have been good so far.
17:46	technomancy	sjl: just the number; it's collapsed down
17:46	sjl	technomancy: ah okay
17:46	technomancy	you could determine it's a conflicting range by looking at top-level :deps in project.clj and comparing though
17:46	nDuff	(don't even remember what it was about anymore)
17:46	sjl	technomancy: numeric-tower and combinatorics don't seem to use project.clj -- they have pom.xml files
17:47	sjl	so I don't know where the range would be specified
17:47	technomancy	that's contrib for you =(
17:47	amalloy	Chousuke: 1.3 contained a big batch of bad incompatible changes. 1.4 reverted or otherwise addressed most of them
17:47	technomancy	it should be under <dependencies> -> <version>
17:47	hiredman	nDuff: http://www.leancrew.com/all-this/2012/04/where-modules-go-to-die/
17:47	sjl	technomancy: https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower/blob/master/pom.xml
17:48	technomancy	hiredman: I just read the ruby equivalent to that post this morning
17:48	hiredman	it is a universal
17:48	brehaut	sneaking the name munging change into 1.2.1 was a pain
17:48	technomancy	sjl: bleh; maven is being object-oriented here and inheriting from another pom =\
17:49	sjl	but yeah, working on projects like Mercurial (which is wire-compatible to versions something like ~5 years old) made me realize that A) Backwards compatibility matters. and B) It's not that hard once you actually commit to it.
17:49	hiredman	project object model oriented programming
17:49	sjl	technomancy: ah
17:49	S11001001	wire protocols aren't apis
17:49	sjl	technomancy: so how can I use both numeric-tower and clojure 1.4?
17:49	glitch99	anybody know a trick for a memset of clojure - like 10 copies of the same element in a list?
17:49	sjl	S11001001: It's Mercurial's API, along with the CLI
17:49	hiredman	,(doc repeat)
17:49	technomancy	sjl: you could add an :exclusions entry to your numeric-tower dependency
17:50	clojurebot	"([x] [n x]); Returns a lazy (infinite!, or length n if supplied) sequence of xs."
17:50	glitch99	hiredman: sweet! thanks!
17:50	sjl	technomancy: hmm, never seen that -- are there docs on it somewhere?
17:50	S11001001	implication doesn't imply equivalence
17:50	glitch99	clojurebot: also thanks!
17:50	clojurebot	I'm no man, and she's no lady!
17:50	technomancy	sure; `lein help sample` \| grep :exclusions
17:50	sjl	S11001001: okay, replace "API" with "the part of your thing that real humans other than you are going to use"
17:51	technomancy	hm; well the grep doesn't really work since it cuts off a wrapped line but you get the idea
17:51	S11001001	right, even more of those things are different
17:51	technomancy	sjl: anyway, there's a time to commit to stability and a time to be experimental and explorative.
17:51	amalloy	technomancy: grep -C?
17:51	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, that
17:52	technomancy	if I had to commit to stability on something like slamhound it would never get written
17:52	sjl	technomancy: right, and the time is either "version 1.0" or "lots of real people use this now and will have to waste time if you break it"
17:52	sjl	technomancy: you did the right thing with lein 2.0 -- I just wish more people did the same.
17:52	technomancy	the problem isn't that people break things, it's that they don't communicate expectations well
17:53	sjl	sure, putting "Don't use this if you care about your time" is fair warning. You're right -- people don't do that either.
17:53	hiredman	the problem is people use a software package and expect the next version to work the same way
17:54	hiredman	which is why tools like maven are good, because you can lock a specific version and just use it
17:54	sjl	Yes. Why would a version that had more work put into it now be broken? Isn't it supposed to be better after more work?
17:54	hiredman	and not worry about "oh, I depended on this bug that got fixed, in what was a patch version, so I thought it was ok to upgrade"
17:55	technomancy	sjl: it's silly to think "better" is one-dimensional
17:55	sjl	technomancy: Partially, but it's important to remember that the only person who actually cares how pretty the internals are is you (plus other implementers)
17:56	sjl	People using the library care way more about "it's not broken" than "it's elegant inside".
17:56	technomancy	code that's easier to reason about has fewer bugs
17:56	sjl	Sure, except it's broken and now I need to fix things before I move on.
17:57	technomancy	it's complicated
17:57	technomancy	sometimes it's worth it in an immature codebase
17:57	sjl	It's really not that hard to either 1) Provide little wrappers to stay backwards compatible or 2) Increment the major version and make it obvious that people are going to need to sit down and figure out how to deal.
17:58	hiredman	even in a mature codebase
17:58	sjl	yes!
17:58	hiredman	"this is slow and in efficient, it will now be fast, any stick in the mud who hates change is welcome to continue to use the old version"
17:59	hiredman	etc
17:59	sjl	Sure, if you don't care about the time and frustration of other human beings that's a valid approach.
17:59	technomancy	often you're not free to use old code though; upgrades are contagious
17:59	antoineB	hello, can i talk clojure-script in this channel?
18:00	Raynes	We'd prefer English, but sure.
18:00	Raynes	;)
18:00	sjl	technomancy: exactly -- "use the old version" tends to be a valid option for a couple of months or so
18:00	technomancy	unless you use that fancy new polycosmosish thing I hear is pretty hot these days =)
18:00	borkdude	Esperanto is also accepted
18:00	hiredman	it is pretty sweet
18:00	hiredman	:)
18:01	borkdude	or maybe emacs people like Ido more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ido)
18:01	hiredman	it lets you be more free wheeling with your versions, you can stick with an old version and still move to newer versions of it's dependencies for your own code
18:02	technomancy	hiredman: curious why you didn't just use plain old classloaders thouh
18:02	technomancy	though
18:02	technomancy	do jboss models get you basically the same thing?
18:02	sjl	technomancy: okay this is weird
18:03	sjl	technomancy: http://paste.stevelosh.com/4fc7e98b58d2e20007000000?clojure
18:03	hiredman	technomancy: they get you more than classloaders, e.g. if you have two things that depend on clojure-1.2 they can share a clojure 1.2 runtime
18:03	sjl	technomancy: that results in http://paste.stevelosh.com/4fc7e99c58d2e20007000001 -- no clojure 1.3.0, which looks right
18:03	technomancy	hiredman: can't you do that by nesting your classloaders the right way though?
18:03	technomancy	hiredman: I guess you aren't responsible for the tricky calculations on how to do that?
18:03	hiredman	technomancy: right
18:03	sjl	technomancy: but if I remove the exclusion from metrics-clojure, clojure 1.3.0 reappears under combinatorics in lein deps :tree
18:03	technomancy	hiredman: cool
18:03	sjl	how could that be?
18:04	hiredman	the plan for jboss modules seems to be that they will be compatible with whatever comes out of project jigsaw too
18:04	nDuff	technomancy: ...at least with the OSGi classloader-based model, I have trouble with thread-locals being left around by "unloaded" Clojure plugins, linked to their classloaders, which can't be unloaded in turn until everything they instantiated is gone. Not saying that there aren't approaches to track down and fix leftover thread-locals -- I think Tomcat makes the attempt on app unload -- but it's not always easy.
18:05	hiredman	nDuff: yeah that kind of thing is still an issue
18:05	hiredman	polycosm doesn't attempt to provide a way to unload modules
18:05	technomancy	sjl: I think when multiple dependencies bring in a given dep there's not really one right answer for questions like that.
18:06	sjl	technomancy: okay, I lied -- it's just metrics-clojure bringing in clojure 1.3. But why does :tree put it under combinatorics?
18:06	hiredman	if X brings in A and B, and A and B depend on C, should A and B be visble to each other?
18:07	sjl	technomancy: and should I not be specifying a version of clojure in the metrics-clojure library anyway? Just tell people which one they need?
18:07	hiredman	it short of depends on what you mean by visible, and given clojure's implementation it is actually pretty tricky to avoid
18:07	technomancy	sjl: as long as you don't specify a range you're fine
18:07	hiredman	but dealing with that kind of stuff is what a module system does
18:08	sjl	seems strange that specifying a range (more flexibility) actually makes things less flexible...
18:09	technomancy	sjl: yeah, I didn't realize how horrible the implementation was for a long time and unfortunately encouraged their use for a wihle
18:09	technomancy	while
18:09	amalloy	you can specify open-ended ranges like [1.3.0,], or some syntax like that
18:10	technomancy	amalloy: which is horrible for different reasons =)
18:10	amalloy	when i did that, people made fun of me "lol how can you know it will work with 1.6.3?"
18:10	TimMc	[1.3.0,1.3.9999999] is safer
18:10	technomancy	you can say it'll work with 1.3.0 up to but not including 2.0.0
18:10	amalloy	technomancy: sure you can
18:10	TimMc	it still doesn't protect you from alpha releases
18:10	technomancy	to which aether will be like "what's that? you want 2.0.0-SNAPSHOT? OK, here ya go!"
18:10	technomancy	ಠ_ಠ
18:11	amalloy	and then if it happens to work with 2.0.0 anyway, people will still be annoyed
18:11	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, exactly why I don't recommend the 9999999999 approach
18:11	technomancy	semantic versioning doesn't mean major version bumps must be completely incompatible
18:12	sjl	"Major version X (X.y.z \| X > 0) MUST be incremented if any backwards incompatible changes are introduced to the public API."
18:13	TimMc	technomancy: Unless you version your variable names too. :-P
18:13	amalloy	sjl: uhhhh, are you trying to disagree with technomancy? because he just stated that the converse is untrue
18:13	antoineB	i am trying to use the browser repl with a server (file:///myfile.....) and it doesn't works
18:14	sjl	amalloy: the other part is that there's no other place in that spec that says anything about incrementing major version numbers
18:14	TimMc	amalloy: Not even that.
18:14	TimMc	"Completely" is the operative (and fun) word.
18:14	sjl	Well sure, they could happen to have only broken parts of the code you never use, that's true.
18:15	amalloy	sjl: so what? "x MUST be done if y" does not mean "x MUST NOT be done if not-y"
18:15	sjl	But in the semver.org description of it, the ONLY time the major version is incremented is when you break something
18:15	pjstadig	if P, then Q does not imply if Q, then P
18:15	sjl	amalloy: yeah, but that's the only rule applying to major versions in the spec
18:15	amalloy	sjl: uh huh
18:16	pjstadig	in fact it is fallacious to draw that conclusion
18:16	amalloy	which is my point
18:16	amalloy	and pjstadig's
18:16	technomancy	the more careful you are about bumping on every incompatible change the more likely it is that a bump will result from a change that doesn't affect some people
18:16	TimMc	sjl: It's not part of the spec, even though it might be a good idea.
18:16	sjl	Sure, you could also say "well he doesn't say NOT to increment the major version number when you eat Indian food for lunch that day!"
18:16	pjstadig	sjl: sounds good to me
18:16	amalloy	shrug and if i chose to increment the major version number once a year on my birthday, i would not be in violation of the spec
18:17	amalloy	as long as i also bumped it whenever i broke something
18:17	sjl	amalloy: you are technically correct
18:17	sjl	the best kind
18:17	pjstadig	if the sun comes up, then the rooster crows, therefore if the rooster crows, then the sun will come up
18:17	pjstadig	but of course roosters don't make the sun come up
18:17	amalloy	sjl: the only kind. if the spec doesn't forbid something, then doing it can't cause you to be non-compliant. that's what a spec MEANS
18:18	sjl	amalloy: I guess I'm assuming some level of common sense here,
18:18	TimMc	pjstadig: Well, we've never tested that by taping all the roosters' beaks shut...
18:18	amalloy	TimMc, chicken-harasser incognito
18:19	arohner	is there a way to examine an agent's queue?
18:19	TimMc	sjl: I get annoyed at "needless" major version bumps, but I'd not say they're counter-spec.
18:19	arohner	and has anyone else ever wanted an agent's queue to be a sorted set? i.e. ignore duplicate calls?
18:19	TimMc	sjl: It certainly violates the Principle of Least Astonishment.
18:19	hiredman	arohner: perhaps you should put a set in your agent
18:20	pjstadig	TimMc: you do something major, so you bump the major version...doesn't astonish me
18:20	arohner	hiredman: I'm kind of hacking it. I don't really care about the value of the agent, I just want to serialize some I/O
18:20	pjstadig	"something major" is not necessarily equal to "something breaking"
18:20	sjl	TimMc: They might not violate the spec in the pedantic nerd version of it, but they do in the normal-human, spirit-of-the-thing version.
18:20	hiredman	arohner: :(
18:20	sjl	pjstadig: in semantic versioning yes, it is
18:20	TimMc	pjstadig: If it only adds stuff, it's a minor version bump.
18:21	hiredman	arohner: then just put a sorted set in a ref
18:21	sjl	pjstadig: http://semver.org/ is the spec we're talking about
18:21	TimMc	semver doesn't track cool, it tracks compatibility.
18:21	hiredman	run a loop in a future to read it and the io
18:21	technomancy	uh oh; pjstadig is violating semver
18:21	technomancy	~guards
18:21	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
18:21	arohner	hiredman: yeah, but I want the fn to be called when I call it, but if another call to f is already in the queue, throw it on the floor
18:22	sjl	The benefit to using it is that I can say "Foo works with version 1.4 or higher, but not anything starting with a 2 because that broke something"
18:22	sjl	That way I don't need to manually inspect each new version of the library unless the major version changed
18:22	hiredman	arohner: well that isn't an agent anyway, right? agents are asynchronous
18:22	borkdude	so emacs 24 is not compatible with 23?
18:22	sjl	borkdude: if they used semver, that would be the case, but I don't think they do
18:23	arohner	hiredman: I want async and serialized, I just want the queue to be a sorted set
18:23	amalloy	arohner: so put a ref around a set. or a queue, and have your alter function check to see if it should actually add anything
18:23	hiredman	arohner: right, but you don't want a reference, you don't care about the value
18:23	technomancy	borkdude: the answer, as always, is "it's complicated" =)
18:23	technomancy	some things are compatible and some aren't.
18:23	hiredman	so you don't want an agent
18:23	sjl	borkdude: and anyway isn't the "24" in "emacs 24" short for "emacs 1.24" and it's just that no one ever writes the "1." any more?
18:23	sjl	I thought I read that somewhere
18:23	sjl	Could be wrong though -- I use Vim.
18:23	hiredman	so, stick a sorted set in a ref, have a thread read from the ref in a loop
18:23	hiredman	done
18:24	borkdude	slj with java that is the case, with emacs I doubt it, but could be
18:24	technomancy	borkdude: no, he's right
18:24	TimMc	It doesn't always make sense to follow semver.
18:24	borkdude	technomancy ah, ok
18:24	TimMc	Apps like Firefox and Emacs... nothing really links against the UI.
18:24	TimMc	Now, their internal components, sure.
18:24	sjl	Yeah, standalone GUI apps don't really make sense, definitely.
18:25	clojure-newcomer	hey guys, I've got dates stored as '1065706498' (int(11) in MySQL), I'm trying to get them out with clojure.java.jdbc and they are all coming up as 1970 or thereabouts….. how do I extract them correctly ? oh, I'm using clj-time
18:25	sjl	CLI ones do though -- the CLI becomes the public-facing API as soon as someone writes a bash script.
18:25	borkdude	technomancy where can I find that?
18:26	pjstadig	meh
18:27	pjstadig	that's enough bikeshedding for me for today
18:27	technomancy	borkdude: wikipedia says "Versions 2 to 12 never existed. Earlier versions of GNU Emacs had been numbered "1.x.x", but sometime after version 1.12 the decision was made to drop the "1", as it was thought the major number would never change."
18:27	technomancy	so I guess that's a little different from 24 technically still being 1.24
18:27	pjstadig	hehe
18:28	jjido	clojure-newcomer: maybe times 1000? This timestamp is in 2003 using Unix epoch
18:28	pjstadig	"these are not the major numbers you are looking for"
18:28	pipeline	emacs also stopped development for a really, really long time
18:29	pipeline	all "interesting" things happened inside of xemacs or another fork first for a really l ong time
18:29	pipeline	emacs 22 came out in '07 and development has been really rapid since then
18:29	clojure-newcomer	jjido: could you tell me a little more about this, sorry
18:29	TimMc	Java will never go 2.0. Python is pretty much stuck at 2.x.
18:29	hiredman	java went 2.0
18:29	hiredman	and is now at 7
18:29	technomancy	pipeline: I think it still came in under the XP->vista gap though =)
18:30	S11001001	TimMc: I'm a 3k believer :)
18:30	pjstadig	clojure-newcomer: that doesn't seem like a clojure issue. ask the person who created the database and inserted the data what the numbers mean
18:30	TimMc	hiredman: Eh, Java 7 is the marketing name, but it is Java v1.7.
18:30	gfrederi`	you'd think there weren't any major numbers above 5
18:30	hiredman	TimMc: 1.7 is the jvm version
18:30	S11001001	wasn't it java 2 v1.2, java 2 v1.3?
18:30	pipeline	technomancy: yes, technically, but versions 18 through 21, particularly 18, 19, 20, were so similar that you might as well compare them to service packs
18:30	pjstadig	clojure-newcomer: java dates can be constructed with number of millis since epoch, you may need to do some work to convert the fields to millis
18:31	gfrederi`	versions could be like points in pinball -- you add 500 at the slightest provocation
18:31	TimMc	hiredman: Mmm, interesting... I'll have to think about that.
18:31	TimMc	gfrederi`: Well, Firefox already went full retard with versions.
18:31	clojure-newcomer	thanks guys
18:31	pjstadig	clojure-newcomer: i think what jjido suspects is that they are actually the number of seconds since epoch, which means you'd have to multiply my 1000
18:31	clojure-newcomer	I'll have a look
18:31	pjstadig	*by
18:31	jjido	clojure-newcomer: it is a JDBC issue, find how it interprets timestamp from your db.
18:31	gfrederi`	TimMc: the only thing retarded is all opinions except my own
18:31	ethanis	hey guys, I'm trying to setup testing in a clojure project and use leiningen to run the tests
18:32	pjstadig	but he said they are int(11) fields, not date fields
18:32	pjstadig	so my guess is JDBC brings them out as integers
18:32	ethanis	but whenever I call "lein test", the output is: "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate sherbondy/test/point_api__init.class or sherbondy/test/point_api.clj on classpath"
18:32	hiredman	jjido: most likely since he says "I am using clj-time" he is turning the ints in to dates badly
18:32	clojure-newcomer	pjstadig: yes int(11)
18:32	ethanis	is there some sort of classpath voodoo I need to do to set things up properly?
18:32	TimMc	ethanis: Did you name the file with an underscore or a hyphen?
18:32	ethanis	hyphen
18:33	clojure-newcomer	hiredman: same problem if I construct from java.util.Date with Long in constructor
18:33	TimMc	ethanis: There's your problem.
18:33	ethanis	woohoo
18:34	technomancy	welcome to the JVM where the filenames are made up and the points don't matter
18:35	brehaut	lol
18:35	brehaut	i liked the original british JVM better than the US remake
18:36	hiredman	the british jvm is for toffs
18:36	technomancy	but there was that one episode where Stephen Fry made a cameo
18:37	technomancy	as the G1 garbage collector
18:37	technomancy	wait, are toffs good or bad?
18:38	brehaut	clearly they are good
18:38	brehaut	otherwise hiredman wouldnt be making any sense
18:39	pjstadig	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toff
18:39	pjstadig	derogatory
18:39	pjstadig	and mildly so
18:42	zomg	Hi, I wonder if there are any common gotchas or such in Clojure for people not familiar with it?
18:42	technomancy	zomg: contains?, isa?, and partition don't do what you think they do.
18:42	zomg	I'm converting some Java code into Clojure, and while I've managed to make the code compile, it doesn't work the same way as the Java code does
18:42	zomg	So just wondering if there's anything that could easily trick you before I go through the code again for the 5th time to find out if I did some stupid mistake somewhere
18:42	zomg	=)
18:42	technomancy	also don't use protocols, defrecord, or deftype until you have a few months of experience
18:43	zomg	Yeah I don't even know what those are... =)
18:43	technomancy	even better! =)
18:43	technomancy	don't mix laziness and side effects
18:43	technomancy	we need like a ten commandments for newbies
18:43	hiredman	zomg: that is generally a bad idea, clojure code for the same task is often very different from the java code
18:44	zomg	hiredman: Yeah I'm not doing one to one code of course :)
18:44	gfrederi`	technomancy: that was impressive
18:44	zomg	but more like rewriting it to do the same job
18:44	technomancy	gfrederi`: I, uh... spend a lot of time on IRC.
18:44	gfrederi`	~gotcha
18:44	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
18:44	zomg	I've done some Haskell before so I'm not completely lost ;)
18:44	zomg	But only passingly familiar with any lisp like languages
18:44	gfrederi`	clojurebot: gotcha is contains?, isa?, and partition don't do what you think they do.
18:44	clojurebot	Roger.
18:44	gfrederi`	~gotcha
18:44	clojurebot	gotcha is contains
18:44	technomancy	don't write any macros in your first three months
18:44	gfrederi`	crap
18:45	gfrederi`	technomancy: please make your language sound as much like new-parent advice as possible
18:45	technomancy	haha
18:45	borkdude	also, only use def/defn on top level expressions
18:45	zomg	"do not drop the baby"
18:45	pjstadig	don't expect any sleep for at least 2 months
18:46	arohner	hiredman: FYI, you can get at the agent's queue with wallhack field, but the items in the queue aren't amenable to being put in a set, because each fn gets a new (binding-conveyor-fn) wrapped, which kills equality
18:46	zomg	Oh regarding defn, is there a difference between using 'do' in it or not? :P As in, (defn foo [] (one) (two)) vs (defn foo [] (do (one) (two)))
18:46	gfrederi`	zomg: no diff
18:46	zomg	I noticed the docs for certain things like when and when-not say they have an implicit do, but I wasn't really able to find out anything concrete
18:46	technomancy	zomg: sounds like you're asking the right questions at least. =)
18:46	pjstadig	uh oh
18:47	pjstadig	let's not open up that can of worms
18:47	gfrederi`	pjstadig: there's a diff?
18:47	pjstadig	when vs. if can be very contentious
18:47	gfrederi`	oh nm
18:47	gfrederi`	well there is technically one difference
18:48	pjstadig	zomg: i think the answer is that defns have an implicit do as well, so the do is unnecessary
18:48	zomg	Ah I see
18:48	gfrederi`	(fn [] {:pre [false]} :x) is definitely not the same as (fn [] (do {:pre [false]} :x))
18:48	gfrederi`	but you wouldn't do that anyways
18:48	hiredman	arohner: also it is just a bad idea, as everyone (all 2 of us) that have responded to you have said
18:49	hiredman	the semantics you want are not the semantics of agents, so stop trying to use them
18:49	zomg	Well, thanks for the pointers. I guess I'm going over my code once more to find that mistake I did =)
19:03	ethanis	hmm, how can I preserve my shell's environment variables when using lein repl/test?
19:04	ethanis	as in, I have defs which rely on System/getenv calls
19:04	ethanis	or is there a better way of going about this? profiles?
19:04	technomancy	the environment should be preserved
19:04	technomancy	(just ask Captain Planet)
19:04	technomancy	sorry
19:04	ethanis	haha
19:06	ethanis	even the temporary environment created by a call of source?
19:06	ethanis	here's my setup:
19:06	ethanis	I have a local .env file containing various API keys
19:07	ethanis	to test, I figured I could call source .env
19:07	technomancy	ethanis: try export $(cat .env)
19:07	ethanis	alright!
19:07	technomancy	ethanis: curious, is this for heroku?
19:07	ethanis	yep
19:08	technomancy	cool; have fun =)
19:09	ethanis	great, it works! thanks technomancy.
19:48	devn	i wonder... does it make sense to port pprint to clojurescript?
19:51	devn	klauern: howdy
19:52	antoineB	i just start to do a simple "hello world" in clojure-script
19:53	antoineB	it give me 19000 lines
19:53	brehaut	have you used advanced compilation?
19:53	antoineB	no
19:53	amalloy	good thing the computer writes them for you, eh?
19:53	brehaut	that would be why then
19:56	devn	antoineB: {:optimizations :advanced, :pretty-print :false}
20:00	antoineB	5400 lines, it is probably more than my application will need
20:01	devn	antoineB: perhaps
20:02	devn	antoineB: not everyone needs jquery or clojurescript
20:03	antoineB	i try to build a schema maker with the svg element
20:06	antoineB	in 708 lines i do "simple direct link", "box wiith text", "context menu", "serialization/deSerialzation"
20:11	devn	antoineB: why do you think it is 700 lines?
20:12	antoineB	until no it is 700lines
20:12	devn	sorry. why do you think it is 5400 lines?
20:12	antoineB	i just count them
20:13	devn	antoineB: yes. but why do you think it is 5400 lines?
20:13	TimMc	I wonder what jquery weighs in at these days.
20:13	antoineB	i make a simple hello world compile then with advance but with pretty print and give me a js file
20:14	brehaut	9404 lines
20:14	brehaut	TimMc: ^
20:14	devn	antoineB: i understand. think about why the output is that big. do you know why?
20:14	antoineB	realy?
20:15	antoineB	devn: unfortly not
20:15	devn	antoineB: http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html
20:15	TimMc	brehaut: Huh. That's the uncompressed, right?
20:15	brehaut	TimMc: yes
20:15	brehaut	antoineB: if you wrote hello.c compiled it and statically linked it with libc would you be surprised if it was large?
20:16	brehaut	TimMc: compressed im pretty sure its only one line
20:18	TimMc	heh
20:18	devn	haha i was thinking the same thing
20:22	fil512	how do i add something to the front of a vector?
20:22	antoineB	devn: i think the code is the goog stuff
20:23	technomancy	fil512: depends, do you care the tiniest bit about performance?
20:23	fil512	not so much...
20:23	antoineB	brehaut: no, but the libc embrace also the browser stuff
20:23	brehaut	err
20:24	devn	fil512: why do you want to add to the front of a vector? what do you want to accomplish?
20:24	fil512	the reason I want to stick it at the start is to make it easy to use update-in, e.g. (update-in :foo 0 :bar 0
20:24	technomancy	fil512: ok, in that case you can do something goofy like (vec (cons x myvec))
20:24	hiredman	into!
20:24	technomancy	oh yeah
20:25	fil512	I'd love it if I could go (update-in :foo $ :bar $) or sth to mean "last"
20:25	technomancy	,(into [:head] [:middle :tail])
20:25	clojurebot	[:head :middle :tail]
20:25	fil512	nice!
20:25	TimMc	Huh, cute.
20:25	fil512	thanks!
20:26	TimMc	Hmm. update-in would make a nice protocol.
20:27	devn	cute indeed
20:27	TimMc	Each layer could decide how much of the key list to consume.
20:28	TimMc	For instance, a 3rd-order tensor would consume 3 integer keys.
20:33	brehaut	,(for [:let [a [1 2]] b a] (inc b))
20:33	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't pop empty vector>
20:33	brehaut	,clojure-version
20:33	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
20:35	antoineB	good night
20:37	TimMc	brehaut: Same in 1.3.0. What's up?
20:38	brehaut	just curious
20:39	brehaut	its also the same in 1.2; i just wondered if it had been fixed on a new version
20:39	hiredman	what for really needs is :do
20:39	TimMc	brehaut: Fixed, as in... better error message?
20:40	brehaut	well, let you have a :let at the start of a for
20:40	technomancy	hiredman: :let [_ (horrible-side-effects)]
20:40	technomancy	oops, beat me to it
20:41	hiredman	well, duh
20:41	hiredman	I would just prefer :do to having to do that
20:41	saml	hey, how can I watch a directory tree for modification?
20:41	saml	something like inotify on linux
20:41	technomancy	saml: you need java 7 to do it portably IIRC
20:41	TimMc	That's a common question these days.
20:42	saml	cool i just downloaded jdk
20:42	saml	7
20:42	technomancy	hiredman: that comes dangerously close to endorsing side effects in laziness
20:42	technomancy	ugly things should be ugly
20:43	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading
20:46	hiredman	technomancy: sometimes you gotta log
20:46	hiredman	:do in doseq would be nice too
20:52	TimMc	Explain to me again the use-case for a :let at the beginning of a for form?
20:53	hiredman	you have a for inside a let, and you want to pull it up a level
21:13	_KY_	I did a "lein clean" before "lein uberjar" but I still get "java.language.NoClassDefFoundError", how to fix that?
21:20	hiredman	I don't see how people expect to get anything done when they go around throwing out all the information that comes with an exception
21:20	_KY_	This is the error log:
21:20	_KY_	https://www.refheap.com/paste/2950
21:22	hiredman	what does the ns form for genifer.core look like?
21:25	_KY_	1 sec...
21:25	_KY_	(Ands genifer.core
21:25	_KY_	(:require [genifer.forward_chaining :as forward])
21:25	_KY_	(:require [genifer.backward_chaining :as backward])
21:25	_KY_	(:require [genifer.core :as core])
21:25	_KY_	(:require [clojure.main])
21:25	_KY_	(:require [clojure.string :as string :only [split triml]])
21:25	_KY_	(:gen-class)
21:26	brehaut	_KY_: http://refheap.com etc
21:26	_KY_	First line should be (ns
21:26	hiredman	those underscores should be hyphens
21:26	hiredman	you only need a single :require
21:26	xeqi	why does genifer.core :require itself?
21:26	_KY_	But it used to work...
21:27	hiredman	that's not right either
21:27	hiredman	_KY_: no it didn't
21:27	_KY_	The file name is with the underscore
21:27	hiredman	sure
21:27	hiredman	the file name has an underscore
21:27	hiredman	the namespace name should have a hyphen
21:28	hiredman	_KY_: you tricked yourself in to thinking it worked somehow
21:28	hiredman	but it did not
21:28	_KY_	Namespace is just genifer.core
21:29	_KY_	The file is exactly "forward_chaining.clj"
21:29	hiredman	sure
21:29	_KY_	You mean I change it to hyphen in the file name?
21:29	hiredman	no
21:29	hiredman	the file name stays the same
21:29	_KY_	Alright
21:29	hiredman	but the namespace for the namespace backed by that file should have a hyphen
21:30	hiredman	clojure trys to make things simpler by giving the .clj file name the same file name as the generated class, and java doesn't allow '-' in classnames
21:31	hiredman	but in clojure the convention is to use '-' in symbols to separate words
21:31	hiredman	namespaces are named by a symbol
21:31	hiredman	so the namespace genifer.forward-chaining lives in the file genifer/forward_chaining.clj
21:32	hiredman	and this is why most people just avoid hyphens or dashes when it comes to namespaces
21:33	joegallo	here's something totally bizarre
21:33	hiredman	_KY_: so there are a number of problems with that ns form, the one that is stopping your code from loading is most likely the namespace requiring itself
21:33	joegallo	oops, wrong channel -- you tricked me hiredman!
21:33	hiredman	hah, now people in #clojure know you can talk
21:34	_KY_	Do you mean clojure automatically changes my namespace to forward-chaining?
21:35	_KY_	But I declared the namespace in that file to be genifer.forward_chaining
21:35	hiredman	don't do that
21:35	hiredman	it should be genifer.forward-chaining
21:35	brehaut	underscores in clojure space names is non-idiomatic style, even when it works
21:36	brehaut	not to mention plain ugly
21:37	_KY_	So I keep the file names, and change the space names?
21:37	_KY_	Is that allowed?
21:37	ethanis	hey guys, has there been any talk of tweaking the load-lib function in clojure.core so that the :only option accepts an individual symbol in addition to a seq of symbols?
21:37	_KY_	I thought it's required that file name = namespace name
21:38	ethanis	I'm new to clojure, and I keep getting tripped up and accidentally typing (:use some-package :only bla) when I only want to use one function
21:38	ethanis	I guess this would make the use function inconsistent
21:39	ethanis	but it seems like a pragmatic tweak
21:39	ethanis	thoughts?
21:39	hiredman	ethanis: use :require not :use
21:39	_KY_	I have been using :only blah without [] and it seems to work
21:39	ethanis	ah, so it's just poor form to do :use if I only want a single function?
21:42	tmciver	ethanis: not because you only want one function; use is discouraged - use require.
21:42	ethanis	_KY_: what version of clojure are you using? (use '[clojure.string :only lower-case]) definitely does not work for me.
21:42	ethanis	ah, use is just generally discouraged because require is more explicit?
21:43	_KY_	1.3.0
21:43	gtrak	I find 'use' obfuscating
21:43	ethanis	sure, I understand why
21:43	_KY_	I use :require in ns
21:44	brehaut	use is also unnecessary with :refer in 1.4+'s require
21:44	brehaut	though still useful at a repl
21:44	hiredman	_KY_: have you read the docstring on require?
21:44	hiredman	(you may find that there is no :only option, so clojure is silently ignoring you)
21:46	_KY_	Oh really
21:46	saml	hey, if anyone is using La Clojure, how would I import lein project to that IDE?
21:46	gtrak	where's an example of the :refer feature?
21:48	ethanis	don't actually do this
21:48	brehaut	,(do (require '[clojure.set :as set :refer [difference]]) (difference (set/union #{:a} #{:b}) #{:b}))
21:48	clojurebot	#{:a}
21:48	ethanis	but an example
21:48	ethanis	oh, never mind
21:48	brehaut	gtrak: ^
21:49	gtrak	ah, neat
21:49	ethanis	even so
21:50	gtrak	,(difference #{:a} #{:a :b})
21:50	clojurebot	#{}
21:50	ethanis	it'd be nice to be able to type (require '[clojure.set :as set :refer difference])
21:50	ethanis	but you could make the case
21:50	hiredman	denied
21:50	brehaut	clojure.set/difference cares about ordering
21:50	ethanis	that it'd just be more typing later the moment you decide to refer another function
21:50	gtrak	,(difference #{:a :b} #{:a})
21:50	clojurebot	#{:b}
21:51	brehaut	gtrak: theres a math word for that and i cant remember waht it is
21:51	brehaut	transitive?
21:51	brehaut	associative?
21:51	brehaut	one of those
21:51	gtrak	associative
21:51	brehaut	thanks
21:52	aperiodic	well, if it cares about ordering, then it's not associative
21:52	gtrak	right
21:53	metellus	I think you mean commutative
21:53	brehaut	this is why im no good at math
21:53	ethanis	alright folks, thanks for the style tips re: use of require
21:54	ethanis	night
21:54	aperiodic	"ordering" in the (a (b c)) vs ((a b) c) sense
21:54	aperiodic	not the (a b) vs (b a) sense
21:54	gfrederi`	What's purple and commutes?
21:54	aperiodic	an abelian grape!
21:54	gfrederi`	AAAAHAHAHAHAHHAA
21:55	gfrederi`	o/
21:55	aperiodic	\o
21:55	gfrederi`	my work here is done
21:55	_KY_	,(docs ns)
21:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: docs in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:55	aperiodic	i'm partial to the "what's purple and takes the train to work?" version, myself
21:55	_KY_	,(doc ns)
21:55	clojurebot	"([name docstring? attr-map? references]); Sets ns* to the namespace named by name (unevaluated), creating it if needed. references can be zero or more of: (:refer-clojure ...) (:require ...) (:use ...) (:import ...) (:load ...) (:gen-class) with the syntax of refer-clojure/require/use/import/load/gen-class respectively, except the arguments are unevaluated and need not be quoted. (:gen-class .....
22:05	_KY_	I don't know why but I changed my deps and now lein won't work
22:05	_KY_	It's always noClassFound for this and that file
22:06	_KY_	The namespace, require etc used to work
22:15	TimMc	Hey, Light Table hit 300 kilobucks!
22:26	abp	TimMc: Thanks, reminded me that i meant to pledge too..
22:26	TimMc	:-D
22:27	xhh	abp: you got 19 hours left ;)
22:29	abp	xhh: I know, but then I surely would miss the deadline. Where waiting the last months, despite knowing i will pledge eventually .
22:43	_KY_	Oh I found out... I was opening 2 sessions of lein at the same time =)
22:43	_KY_	Almost drove me nuts
23:03	irc2samus	hi guys, if I were to capture SIGINT in order to do cleanup I should use the Java way that is registering a shutdown hook like it's said here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2541475/capture-sigint-in-java right? or is there a Clojure-specific way that is preferable?
23:03	technomancy	irc2samus: shutdown hook is best
23:04	irc2samus	great thanks!
23:40	zomg	Neat, managed to whip together a desktop streaming application even though I had never used clojure before :D
23:40	zomg	Using xuggler with ogg theora encoder and html5 video as the "target" where you can view the desktop stream
23:41	zomg	on my local box only about 1-2 seconds of latency so not bad I think =)
23:41	zomg	prob worse over a network tho
23:42	irc2samus	so guys, do I need gen-class for the shutdown hook thread? or is there a more "direct" way to define the function to run there
23:45	Lajla	Chousuke, mun rakkaus, oletko täällä?
23:48	irc2samus	hmm there's a "proxy" thingy that seems to do it
23:51	abp	irc2samus: http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/ have a look at that chart and deceide
23:55	technomancy	irc2samus: you don't need anything fancy to create a thread, just pass it a function
23:55	technomancy	(.start (Thread. #(do :some 'stuff)))
23:56	technomancy	well, don't start it in this case I guess
23:58	irc2samus	lots of options :) the proxy thing worked, copied it from here: http://java.dzone.com/articles/clojuretest-introduction