#clojure – 2012-04-25

2012-04-25

00:44	jedahu	any users of clutch about?
00:46	sritchie	jedahu: yeah, I've been using it a bit
00:46	sritchie	what's up?
00:47	jedahu	how do you go about saving design documents so your views aren't recalculated from scratch each time your server restarts?
00:48	jedahu	I'm considering writing a save-versioned-view function
00:48	jedahu	but want to see if there's something I'm missing first :)
00:51	jedahu	sritchie: just wondering what the usual practise is
00:51	sritchie	ah
00:51	sritchie	jedahu: yeah, I've just been putting them in a namespace and running them myself when I want to create them
00:51	sritchie	rather than leaving it as a bare form in the code or something
00:52	sritchie	create a "populate-views" function
00:52	sritchie	jedahu: are you writing your views in clojure or clojurescript?
00:53	jedahu	clojurescript and javascript
00:53	jedahu	sritchie: I'll be writing that function then
00:53	sritchie	jedahu: I've been using the cljs views as well
00:53	sritchie	yeah, same thing with view destruction, I think
00:54	sritchie	I do all of that stuff from the repl, rather than hooking it up to some web trigger
00:54	jedahu	sritchie: I want something a little less prone to catastrophe when I inevitably forget to update views before running new code
00:55	sritchie	jedahu: yeah, I hear you -- I'm just not sure how to check if the view's actually changed or not
00:56	sritchie	you could check the actual string of code itself, but that'll change every time you change the cljs dependency
00:56	jedahu	sritchie: I'm assuming one can add a "code-version" field to the design doc and check that?
00:56	sritchie	yeah, probably
00:56	sritchie	you could wrap the "create-view" function to modify that design doc entry as well
00:57	sritchie	I don't think couchdb cares about extra fields in those docs
01:06	jedahu	sritchie: save-design-document merges the old document with the new; seems like an odd thing to do
01:07	sritchie	maybe in case you added other fields, like that version you mentioned?
01:07	sritchie	oh
01:07	sritchie	design docs can have lots of views
01:07	sritchie	a merge would bump out an old version,or add on a new
01:07	sritchie	here's an idea --
01:08	sritchie	you could generate a view-query function that automatically appends a version onto the end of a view name
01:08	sritchie	and then have a save-view function that runs on server startup, but ONLY saves a view if it doesn't exist in the design doc yet
01:09	sritchie	jedahu: so you go change all your code, then bump some global variable with a version and everyone gets saved again
01:09	sritchie	not quite perfect, but it's an idea :)
01:10	jedahu	sritchie: thanks, but I think I'll pursue the extra field implementation for now
01:10	sritchie	cool
02:35	robertstuttaford	anyone with knowledge of clojurescript in?
02:44	emezeske	robertstuttaford: I have some such knowledge
02:48	robertstuttaford	i'm completely new to clj and cljs. been reading the new programming clojure book.
02:49	robertstuttaford	i do already use google closure lib+compiler with advanced mode compilation.
02:49	robertstuttaford	my question: does cljs use type annotations when producing js for the gclosure compiler?
02:50	robertstuttaford	i've been checking ClojureScript One out, and i notice that although the app is trivial, the mainp.js output file is rather large
02:52	emezeske	robertstuttaford: To my knowledge, it does not
02:52	emezeske	robertstuttaford: I just checked an intermediate js file, and I don't see any
02:53	robertstuttaford	that's a pity. type annotations certainly help the compiler to produce tighter code.
02:53	robertstuttaford	how long have you been using cljs, emezeske?
02:53	emezeske	Hmm, I've been using it seriously for a few months, unseriously for a little longer
02:54	robertstuttaford	so it's capable of producing production ready apps?
02:54	emezeske	Oh, definitely. The language itself works great, I think most of the pain is in lack of documentation, examples, etc
02:54	emezeske	And the tooling still has a ways to go
02:55	robertstuttaford	super! i'm guessing that all of that is steadily improving, though, as more folks start using it
02:56	robertstuttaford	i'm very interested in cljs because right now, the JS i'm writing (so that i get really small, performant JS on mobile web) is incredibly verbose and painstaking to write
02:56	emezeske	Yeah, for sure.
02:57	emezeske	Well, cljs is great for not being verbose. I can't speak too much to the performance, other than to say that recently there has been a lot of progress in the compiler to make the persistent data structures perform better.
02:57	robertstuttaford	aside from clojurescript one, can you recommend any other resources that are particularly useful
02:57	emezeske	I'm a bit biased toward recommending https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild
02:57	robertstuttaford	ah, that's you!
02:58	emezeske	:)
02:58	robertstuttaford	came across that last night
02:58	Raynes	Yeah, surprised me too. All those phoney emezeskes out there.
02:58	robertstuttaford	so this is an alternative to cljs-one
02:58	emezeske	I wish there were more examples of full apps that I could point to
02:58	Raynes	cljs-one is something that everybody seems to think is something it isn't.
02:59	emezeske	Yeah, although I still totally recommend cljs-one as a piece of documentation
02:59	Raynes	cljsbuild is something entirely different from cljs-one
02:59	robertstuttaford	i like c-one's repl <=> browser mechanic
03:00	robertstuttaford	lein-cljsbuild is like guard from ruby
03:00	emezeske	Raynes: Yeah, that is true
03:00	robertstuttaford	watch for changes and build stuff when they occur
03:00	emezeske	robertstuttaford: Yeah, although it has support for browser REPLs and testing and some other stuff
03:01	emezeske	But the rebuild-on-change is the main thing
03:01	emezeske	Are you planning to write your backend in clojure?
03:03	robertstuttaford	it's a definite possibility
03:03	emezeske	I'd recommend taking a look at cljs-template then
03:03	robertstuttaford	does cljs support real-time stuff, like socket.io from node.js?
03:03	robertstuttaford	or has no one gotten there yet
03:04	emezeske	I don't know about that. I know there is goog.net.WebSocket, but maybe that's lower level than what you're talking about?
03:05	robertstuttaford	it is. socket.io is a node lib for websockets, with code for both client and server. i'm guessing it wouldn't be too difficult to do with clj/cljs
03:06	emezeske	I wouldn't be surprised if someone's working on that, but I also haven't heard anything
03:06	robertstuttaford	back to lein-cljsbuild: so repl-launch is the one that gives you the repl-into-browser situation that cljs-one has
03:07	emezeske	Yeah, repl-launch, or the lower-level repl-listen
03:09	robertstuttaford	well, i've a long way to go. still need to learn the fundamentals of clj itself. very exciting. i've done so much OO style code, this whizzbang FP thing is like a breath of fresh air
03:10	emezeske	Yeah, I hear you there! I've been having a blast with it so far.
03:10	robertstuttaford	after watching a couple of rhickey's talks, i'm very eager to learn to thinking in FP and immutable types. so tired of fixing the same old OO spaghetti bugs
03:11	emezeske	He's a damn good speaker.
03:11	emezeske	By which I mean that he is a good thinker :)
03:12	robertstuttaford	he is. i've tried to get into FP before, but i've only usually found the dry, academic, first-do-5-years-of-CS-at-university type stuff. this new Programming Clojure book is superb because it leaves all that alone and just deals with the practicalities
03:16	robertstuttaford	does repl-launch work with chrome, too? i notice firefox is mentioned
03:16	robertstuttaford	i use chrome canary for its excellent dev tools
03:17	emezeske	Actually, I don't think so (unfortunately)
03:19	emezeske	The REPL stuff is actually part of the clojurescript compiler package, and lein-cljsbuild just provides a frontend to it
03:20	emezeske	I doubt it would be hard to make it work on chrome... Maybe I'll take a look at that sometime (I favor chrome as well).
03:20	emezeske	In case you're curious, here's the browser repl implementation: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/repl/browser.clj
03:20	robertstuttaford	when you develop cljs, are you using such a repl?
03:20	emezeske	On and off
03:21	emezeske	Personally, with the auto-build-on-modify feature, I tend to not need it much
03:21	robertstuttaford	oh, that code is still a little beyond me :-) only yesterday did i learn how to def and fn and defn. no clue about how macros or atoms work yet
03:21	emezeske	Heh, you'll understand it soon!
03:22	robertstuttaford	got a 5 day long weekend starting Friday. i will consume that book by the end of it!
03:22	emezeske	Nice.
03:22	emezeske	Well, I'm out of here, good luck with your cljs adventure!
03:22	robertstuttaford	thanks. sleep well
04:17	McMass0ud	&(str (symbol "str"))
04:17	lazybot	⇒ "str"
04:17	McMass0ud	&(str (symbol "I worship his shadow"))
04:17	lazybot	⇒ "I worship his shadow"
04:17	McMass0ud	Well, that was sort of to be expected
04:17	McMass0ud	&(str (symbol [1 2 3 4]))
04:17	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.String
04:24	angerman	does clojure 1.4 allow to simply print "YYYY-MM-DD HH:SS" from a java.util.Date. (or java.util.sql) ?
05:32	gavilanc`	I would like to use the latest lein-newnew in lein2, but I can't seem to ge lein2 to use the setting in my profiles.clj.
05:32	gavilanc`	s/ge/get/
06:07	Borkdude	why does deftest not take a docstring
06:08	Borkdude	I did smth like this: (deftest foo "this test blablabla" (is …))
06:09	Borkdude	it runs perfectly but that's just because the string expression is evaluated and ignored ;)
06:27	Borkdude	is there smth to pretty-print html generated by hiccup?
06:50	ambrosebs	is there an "update-meta" function?
06:52	clgv	ambrosebs: vary-meta
06:52	ambrosebs	clgv: cheers!
07:08	Borkdude	hmm, defpartial doesn't support dispatch on arity...
07:10	dmi3y	probably a dumb question, but does anyone know what font is used in recently published 'Clojure Programming' book for code examples ?
07:12	cemerick	dmi3y: Just Courier New AFAIK
07:14	laurus	How does one do docstrings in defn?
07:15	dmi3y	cemerick: thanks
07:15	laurus	Ah, finally it worked.
07:20	progo	it's not Courier New.
07:21	progo	can't put my finger on it but it looks like the traditional O'Reilly fixed width font
07:24	laurus	Is there any way to convert a map into a sorted-map?
07:25	vijaykiran	dmi3y: my What Font plugin says it is Ubuntu Mono
07:26	vijaykiran	http://cl.ly/2n1J0d2E2l3l1W0O3U1f
07:28	laurus	Are people still working on and/or using Incanter? It seems to have had no updates for a while.
07:31	vijaykiran	laurus: I think should be possible using sorted-map-by
07:31	laurus	vijaykiran, thanks
07:32	dmi3y	vijaykiran: ah, cool, thanks a lot
07:36	clgv	laurus: there was an incanter release with clojure 1.3 support in the last 30 days
07:42	laurus	clgv, wow, okay!
07:43	laurus	By the way, is there a better way to read a file in than slurp?
07:43	clgv	laurus: what do you want to do?
07:43	laurus	clgv: (clojure-csv.core/parse-csv myfile)
07:59	clgv	laurus: there is no slurp in it...
07:59	clgv	what's the limitation with slurp in your opinion?
07:59	gfredericks	not lazy?
08:00	vijaykiran	laurus: you should use buffered reader, if the file is too big
08:00	vijaykiran	s/should/can
08:01	laurus	vijaykiran, ok. That works better :)
08:01	laurus	clgv, for big files it seems to hang
08:01	laurus	Wow, that laziness really works.
08:02	clgv	gfredericks: there is no lazy file reading function in clojure afaik.
08:13	babilen	clgv: It's relatively easy to accomplish with line-seq + java.io.reader (cf. http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/line-seq)
08:13	clgv	babilen: but you can only define it lazily if you know that you will read it all - otherwise you will never know when to close the resource
08:27	Borkdude	I have a project.clj with these two dependencies:
08:27	Borkdude	[org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0"]
08:27	Borkdude	[noir "1.2.0"]
08:27	Borkdude	then why the … does it download clojure 1.2.1? not really a problem, but just wondering why
08:34	clgv	Borkdude: maybe it's a dependency of noir
08:34	Borkdude	clgv: how does it work when there are conflicting dependencies?
08:34	clgv	Borkdude: you can define :exclusions
09:04	the-kenny	(= (netwars.aw-map/coord 1 1) nil) works fine while (= nil (netwars.aw-map/coord 1 1)) throws an error in Clojurescript. (coord is a function returning a Coordinate, defined by defrecord). Is this intended behavior?!
09:09	fliebel	the-kenny: Is the only difference the order? I'd say that's a bug...
09:18	fliebel	the-kenny: What is the error?
09:20	Fullmoon	How would I go about keeping per-connection state in a network server? Keeping a socket connection id <-> data map somewhere? Any ideas?
09:23	fliebel	Fullmoon: There is a Ring middleware for sessions, which you could have a look at.
09:24	fliebel	Fullmoon: I think the connection ID map sounds okay. Another idea would be to store the data with the connection?
09:25	fliebel	(defrecord conn [c d])
09:38	bhenry	why? http://i.imgur.com/oT7xz.png
09:40	vijaykiran	, (doc coll?)
09:41	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IPersistentCollection"
09:41	vijaykiran	probably Array isn't one
09:41	bhenry	yeah.
09:41	vijaykiran	and [] is literal for vector
09:41	vijaykiran	which is IPersistentCollection
09:42	the-kenny	fliebel: Yup, the only difference is the order of arguments. Let me get the backtrace.
09:42	the-kenny	fliebel: https://gist.github.com/2489503
09:43	bhenry	ibdknox: i used a remote on a (jayq/val $elem) but there is an array in there and i can only see that as the cause for the Unreadable form error, but i can't figure out how to change it.
09:45	bhenry	this freezes my cljs repl: http://i.imgur.com/YjLhY.png
09:46	the-kenny	fliebel: The generated code is simply missing a nil check
09:46	the-kenny	Ah, forgot to mention: This is clojurescript HEAD
09:50	fliebel	weird...
09:51	the-kenny	I'll file a bug. It's wasy to reproduce
09:59	dnolen	the-kenny: a nil check where?
10:03	the-kenny	in IEquiv _equiv generated for defrecords in Clojurescript
10:03	the-kenny	There might be a better solution for it
10:03	the-kenny	dnolen: (= (netwars.aw-map/coord 1 1) nil) works fine while (= nil (netwars.aw-map/coord 1 1)) throws an error in Clojurescript. (coord is a function returning a Coordinate, defined by defrecord). Is this intended behavior?!
10:06	the-kenny	This is also reproducible if you add a test for comparision with nil to the clojurescript test suite
10:12	dnolen	the-kenny: huh, what error for the second case?
10:12	the-kenny	dnolen: See here: https://gist.github.com/2489503
10:13	dnolen	the-kenny: oh you mean the first case throws an error
10:14	the-kenny	dnolen: You can also add the following around line 1122 to core_tests.cljs: (assert (= false (= fred nil))) (assert (= false (= nil fred)))
10:14	the-kenny	dnolen: Huh, I might have confused both, yes.
10:15	the-kenny	But shouldn't = be transitive in Clojure & Clojurescript?
10:17	pasg	I have a wierd problem regarding protocols. I can't seem to impement a method with more than one argument (this) when the protocol is another ns than the implementing record. Anyone know why this is?
10:19	dnolen	the-kenny: fixed in master thx.
10:19	the-kenny	dnolen: awesome, thanks :)
10:20	pasg	when i try to implement a method with more than the this argument, i am given this message: CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: doStuff
10:21	pasg	strangely i can implement that method (which has 3 arguments) with just this instead.
10:21	huangjs	i need to do some html parsing, what library would you recommend?
10:31	timvisher	can anyone point me to :repository specification documentation for lein2?
10:44	timvisher	ah, it's not actually changed to a vector. mind the question mark.
10:52	pasg	I have a wierd problem regarding protocols. I can't seem to impement a method with more than one argument (this) when the protocol is another namespace than the implementing record. Anyone know why this is?
10:57	ngw	is there a way to call js code from clojure?
10:57	ngw	should I use rhino, for example?
10:57	fliebel	pasg: You mean... (foo [this] ...) works, but (bar [this args argd] ...) does not?
10:58	fliebel	ngw: yea, rhino should work. Or maybe you can do something fancy with a cljs browser repl?
10:58	ngw	fliebel: I'm a noob, no fancy for me, just learning :p
10:59	ngw	I want to call less.js from clojure and make it easy to use from webnoir and compojure apps
10:59	ngw	to have those css static, less.js is kind of slow if not made static
10:59	pasg	fliebel: yes indeed. Say to have (defprotocol prot (foo [this one two three]) defined in ns1, if i then try to make a record in ns2 implementing prot like so: (defrecord rec [] prot (foo [this one two three]...)) i get an error
11:00	fliebel	ngw: This might give you some ideas: http://briancarper.net/blog/415/
11:00	pasg	fliebel: strange thing is that i can implement foo with just this as an arg without error
11:01	pasg	fliebel: (defrecord rec [] prot (foo [this]...)) that is
11:01	ngw	fliebel I wish to port less.js after reading the same blog
11:01	ngw	thanks I will start from there
11:02	fliebel	pasg: Have you tried getting the namespace out of the equation? Just copy the protocol over and see if it still breaks.
11:02	fliebel	also, what is the error?
11:03	pasg	fliebel: yeah that works fine if the protocol and record is in the same ns
11:03	pasg	CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: doStuff
11:04	pasg	fliebel: that's the error i get, so it isn't finding the right method in the protocol for some reason
11:04	fliebel	pasg: are you importing the interface or the protocol?
11:05	pasg	fliebel: i am just using the ns with the protocol in it. Dunno if that is the correct way tbh, but importing it like a class (or record) doesn't work
11:06	pasg	fliebel: any chance you could try one your end? Just seem so wierd i must be doing something wrong.
11:06	Lajjla	(= .toString str)
11:06	Lajjla	&(= .toString str)
11:06	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: .toString in this context
11:06	pasg	*on
11:06	fliebel	pasg: sure. have some code?
11:06	Lajjla	Well that's apparently not how it works
11:06	pasg	fliebel: yeah one sec
11:07	fliebel	pasg: have you tried rebooting your computer? :D
11:09	pasg	fliebel: i'll try that if this works on your end :P
11:09	pasg	fliebel: in one ns do this: (defprotocol IStep (execute [this uuid order data]))
11:10	pasg	fliebel: in another do this: (defrecord testrec [] IStep (execute [this uuid order data] (prn "args" this)))
11:10	pasg	require the first ns in the second :)
11:11	pasg	fliebel: also, try this in the second: (defrecord testrec [] IStep (execute [this] (prn "args" this)))
11:11	pasg	fliebel: it shouldn't work because the function has wrong arity, but it does :S
11:13	fliebel	pasg: yea, breaks, but works when I add the args.
11:13	pasg	fliebel: which one works?
11:14	fliebel	https://gist.github.com/87ca4283c1813e426f51
11:18	pasg	fliebel: hmm, yeah that works for me too, but not when i have them in separate files :/
11:22	fliebel	pasg: So I would say your require/use statement is to blame.
11:22	fliebel	Are you using, or requiring?
11:23	pasg	fliebel: i am using, does that make a difference?
11:23	pasg	fliebel: basicly i get the error when i use the second ns with the record
11:24	fliebel	pasg: Try require, use adds extra magic.
11:25	pasg	fliebel: just tried, require doesn't make a difference either
11:26	fliebel	pasg: I'm out of ideas...
11:26	pasg	fliebel: i'll just try to create a new project, so see if mine is broken
11:26	pasg	fliebel: yeah, i understand, thanks for your time though :)
11:26	fliebel	you could maybe print the protocol, to see if its the same thing in both namespaces
11:31	pasg	fliebel: yeah, it's the same: {:on-interface order.flow.IStep, :on order.flow.IStep, :sigs {:execute {:doc nil, :arglists ([this uuid order data]), :name execute}}, :var #'order.flow/IStep, :method-map {:execute :execute}, :method-builders {#'order.flow/execute #<flow$eval168$fn__169 order.flow$eval168$fn__169@cd2192>}}
11:31	fliebel	weird...
11:31	pasg	fliebel: even prints the arglist
11:32	pasg	fliebel: yeah, very
11:32	pasg	fliebel: i'll have to look at it again tomorrow with fresh eyes i think. Thanks again for your time
11:47	@rhickey	dnolen: here
11:48	dnolen	rhickey: what do you think about emitting JS primitive arithmetic ops only under unchecked-math ? we add math protocols - then we can do Ratio, BigInt, throw in NaN, Infinity etc.
11:48	dnolen	throw on
11:50	@rhickey	dnolen: seems ok, would be nice to have all the semantics. I'd pay attention to the double dispatch mechanisms used by Clojure - protocols are single dispatch (as are the interfaces used in clojure.lang.Numbers) so you'd have to do something similar
11:52	@rhickey	dnolen: but you don't want math to suck by default either
11:52	dnolen	@rhickey: suck as in performance?
11:52	@rhickey	@dnolen yes
11:53	@rhickey	might want to make sure ^double hint works
11:53	TimMc	Maybe have unchecked-math default to true?
11:54	dnolen	rhickey: yeah, it would be much slower - albeit safer. I'm not convinced common JS applications need fast math - if they do they can use unchecked-math like we do internally.
11:54	dnolen	rhickey: yes, will make sure ^double works.
11:54	@rhickey	@dnolen it's not quite the same as all the types are present with or without unchecked math
11:55	@rhickey	are you proposing to switch between 1 = someLongType and 1 = double with unchecked-math ?
11:55	@rhickey	"I'm not convinced common JS applications need fast math" is a very dangerous way to think
11:56	@rhickey	People building cool libs like C2 might care quite a bit
11:56	dnolen	rhickey: of course, and we provide something reasonable for those libs.
11:56	@rhickey	It's something that needs careful thought
11:56	dnolen	rhickey: again we could just move forward with what we have, but now seems like a good time to decide.
11:57	@rhickey	You need to have a set of objectives
11:57	@rhickey	safety, perf, richer semantics etc
11:57	@rhickey	compatbility
11:58	dnolen	rhickey: yeah compatibility is a big one, people will have have to convert when interacting with JS libs.
11:58	dnolen	which is pretty yucky
11:59	@rhickey	and you need to carefully define what the semantics of unchecked-math would be
11:59	@rhickey	I'm not sure it's the same flag at all
11:59	dnolen	rhickey: agreed.
11:59	@rhickey	let's call it math-flag for the moment
12:00	@rhickey	will math-flag toggle the integer/double interpretation of 42?
12:00	@rhickey	the result type of ops?
12:00	@rhickey	It has a lot less to do with the js primitiveness at some level
12:00	dnolen	rhickey: k one more question - opinion about the other less ambitious approach I took? Just inline numeric checks like we do w/ truth. that is check if number, check not NaN not Infinity.
12:01	dnolen	JS numeric perf is about 2-3X slower, but not horrible, good interop story. Get rid of nasty JS edge cases.
12:01	dnolen	(+ "1" 1)
12:01	dnolen	stuff like that.
12:01	@rhickey	You are hurting good code to protect bad
12:02	@rhickey	Don't do (+ "1" 1)
12:02	dnolen	rhickey: makes sense.
12:02	@rhickey	Protecting people from themselves while hurting people who are writing correct programs is not the Clojure way
12:03	dnolen	rhickey: jumping back a bit - I didn't really think about enforcing long / double semantics, since I don't see how that could be done w/o slowing things down a lot.
12:03	@rhickey	dnolen: Google Clojure has a Long API, which has been carefully thought out afaict
12:04	@rhickey	Closure
12:04	@rhickey	http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/docs/class_goog_math_Long.html
12:04	@rhickey	lots of attention to perf details
12:05	@rhickey	We could adopt as default for 42 and say fastest cljs code uses doubles, e.g. write 42.0
12:05	@rhickey	then less semantic mismatch with Clojure code
12:06	dnolen	rhickey: yes, looks comprehensive like it but still it would be quite slow compared to what we're currently doing.
12:06	@rhickey	not slow compared to 42.0
12:06	Lajjla	##(+ "1" 1) actually works?
12:06	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
12:06	Fossi	in cljs i guess
12:06	@rhickey	dnolen: again, what are the objectives?
12:06	Fossi	in javascript that "works"
12:07	dnolen	rhickey: yes - was mostly wondering how important it is to get Ratio, BigInt in there. Though that could be handled by libs.
12:08	dnolen	rhickey: if it's not important - then I think what we have is OK.
12:09	@rhickey	dnolen: I think it is worth considering, but the objectives have to be clear, and the tradeoffs too - only then could an approach be assessed
12:09	eggsby	I've been hesistant about cljs, that synonyms page was kind of a smack in the face/wake up call, however.
12:09	dnolen	eggsby: good to hear!
12:10	dnolen	rhickey: k thanks for your time.
12:10	eggsby	http://himera.herokuapp.com/synonym.html for those who haven't yet seen it
12:10	@rhickey	dnolen: yes, and the most impressive parts of the synonyms are the ones only supported due to Clojure semantics
12:11	felideon	that's always nice.
12:11	@rhickey	so one thought experiment is - how can we support Clojure numerics semantics (which we've punted on so far), and then, how do we get back perf?
12:11	ben_m	Does anyone have experience with Parenscript? If so, how does Cljs compare to it?
12:12	dnolen	ben_m: Parenscript is quite a bit less ambitious
12:12	S11001001	ben_m: not really alike at all. parenscript is sugar with macros for JS
12:12	felideon	ben_m: it's completely different.
12:13	ben_m	Now I feel stupid for asking :D
12:14	felideon	ben_m: nah, I didn't 'get it' at first either.
12:16	felideon	ben_m: "ParenScript (or CoffeeScript) is not the same as ClojureScript. ParenScript "transforms" a subset of CL to JS, while ClojureScript is a full-fledged target runtime for Clojure."
12:17	felideon	^ someone said to me once
12:28	ben_m	felideon, I was aware of that but temporarily forgot that it would make comparisons hard to make. :)
12:30	felideon	ben_m: and in any case, to answer your question more directly, a lot of (common) lispers just write javascript anyway
12:31	felideon	that i know of at least.
12:40	nDuff	.getURLs on clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader is just returning nils; is there a way to see the classpath?
12:41	technomancy	nDuff: IIRC you need to traverse the parents' as well
12:42	technomancy	(apply concat (map (memfn getURLs) (take-while identity (iterate (memfn getParent) (.getContextClassLoader (Thread/currentThread))))))
12:42	daniel_	I'm trying to create bitboards for a chess program, I get an error use (Integer. "00000000...") what number type do I want here?
12:42	daniel_	here's my function https://gist.github.com/2491133
12:43	daniel_	(vct->bb [\p \p \- \-] \p) gives -> 1100
12:43	daniel_	but length 64 is obviously too big for Int
12:44	raek	nDuff: if you are in a leiningen project, `lein classpath` might be enough
12:44	technomancy	daniel_: numbers beginning with zero get interpreted by the reader as being octal; not sure if the Integer constructor feels the same way
12:44	AimHere	Prefix it with '2r' and you'll get it in binary
12:46	AimHere	also, the 'read-string' function will shove your number into an appropriate type, as long as your string is formatted properly
12:56	pandeiro	does clojure.pprint have anything that can just produce a formatted string instead of actual output?
12:57	mknoszlig	pandeiro: you could wrap it in with-out-str
12:57	TimMc	pandeiro: Use with-out-str.
13:01	pandeiro	thanks, useful macro that
13:04	ben_m	I'm on Windows and since upgrading lein, I get ^M in the swank REPL. Probably an encoding issue, but I don't know how to get rid of it :/
13:37	technomancy	about to wipe the insecure password hashes on clojars; log in to re-hash if you haven't already
13:40	nDuff	Hmm.
13:40	nDuff	clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader.getURLs() is always coming up empty for me, even after I do an addURL() call (and can, in practice, import classes from the added jar)
13:40	nDuff	technomancy: nod, I am traversing the parents...
13:41	nDuff	technomancy: ...but I'd expect the addURL to be to the immediate classloader, rather than to its parent.
13:41	nDuff	raek: a leiningen project would be much easier -- I'm actually escaping from an OSGi sandbox.
14:15	beffbernard	This is a noir/compojure question. How do you handle a variable number of form inputs on a post?
14:15	beffbernard	I tried using the same :name and :value hoping they would come back in a list
14:18	ben_m	I'm on Windows and since upgrading lein, I get ^M in the swank REPL. Probably an encoding issue, but I don't know how to get rid of it. Asked this before, but that was over an hour ago, so I hope it's okay if I ask again.
14:23	ibdknox	beffbernard: name="somename[]"
14:24	fliebel	ibdknox: Cool. I always wondered whether that was a PHP-ism or a HTML/HTTP thing.
14:25	dnolen	`fogus: nice post!
14:25	metajack	Is there an easy way in compojure to map two routes to the same function? Aside from simply copying the function (or factoring it out and still having two routes point to the factored version)?
14:26	S11001001	it's a phpism
14:26	beffbernard	ibdknow: worked like a charm
14:27	beffbernard	ibdknox: ^
14:29	jsabeaudry	Does it matter openjdk6 or openjdk7 with clojure?
14:29	dnolen	jsabeaudry: should not
14:31	ibdknox	dnolen: to your knowledge is anyone de-JSing the CLJS analyzer?
14:32	dnolen	ibdknox: a necessary step for pluggability, so should fall out of GSoC
14:32	dnolen	ibdknox: that said, I don't think the analyzer has too many JS specific bits.
14:32	ibdknox	dnolen: not particularly, no :)
14:33	ibdknox	dnolen: any idea when and where that'd happen?
14:33	ibdknox	I'll likely need it in not too long
14:33	ibdknox	and I don't want to have two efforts for the same thing :)
14:33	dnolen	ibdknox: Raphael Amiard is starting to look into the compiler so in the near future.
14:34	dnolen	ibdknox: but if you know what bits you'd like to see changed now, bring it up.
14:34	ibdknox	dnolen: haven't looked too hard at it yet. I'll probably know more later in the week
14:34	jonasen	dnolen: is there a repo on github that Raphael is using for his work?
14:34	dnolen	jonasen: he just has his own fork.
14:34	dnolen	ibdknox: cool
14:35	jonasen	dnolen: found it. Thanks
14:35	muhoo	is there an imagemagick-like java library that will work on cloudy things like heroku?
14:35	muhoo	all i want to do is resize profile pics after people upload them :-(
14:35	ibdknox	jonasen: link?
14:36	jonasen	https://github.com/raph-amiard/clojurescript
14:36	ibdknox	thanks
14:36	fliebel	S11001001: But then, it is a PHP-ism shared by noir/compojure?
14:36	ibdknox	fliebel: most of the industry picked it up
14:36	ibdknox	I actually thought it originally came from perl
14:37	muhoo	jmagick appears to just be a JNI interface to the c library
14:37	ibdknox	but I might be making that up :)
14:39	muhoo	hmm, nevermind: http://briancarper.net/blog/465/
14:40	muhoo	:-)
14:41	daniel_	AimHere: technomancy thanks for your answers earlier...i had to dash off
14:42	muhoo	it's so sad when i find the simple easy answer to what i need to do, and the answer is "use clojure.contrib"
14:42	muhoo	in this case i think i can go around it tho
14:45	solussd_	trying to use something of the form (defmacro blah [arg1 arg2 & {:keys [a b c] :or {a 1 b 2 c 3}] …) if I pass a, b, or c in a map as the last arg I get this error: "No value supplied for key <the map I tried to pass>". ideas?
14:45	daniel_	AimHere: your binary suggestion, how would i add the prefix 2r to make it binary?
14:45	amalloy	macros only take literal map objects. you can't do (let [m {:a 1}] (blah m))
14:46	solussd_	amalloy: I am passing it a map literal
14:46	amalloy	oh. then drop the & from your signature
14:46	solussd_	but the map is optional. :/
14:46	ibdknox	or do & [{...}]
14:46	solussd_	ok
14:48	daniel_	can anyone tell me how i can convert a string of number "0010101010111110000" into binary representation?
14:48	solussd_	ibdknox: & [{..}] didn't work. here's the code, it's for my noir usage. https://gist.github.com/422e9bcefc4102527b96
14:49	ibdknox	solussd_: I don't see the vector around it
14:49	solussd_	i took it out. :)
14:49	solussd_	doesn't work with it though
14:50	jsabeaudry	daniel_, parseLong(String s, int radix)
14:50	jsabeaudry	daniel_, in your case the radix is 2
14:50	daniel_	thanks jsabeaudry
14:51	daniel_	,(parseLong. "100011" 2)
14:51	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: parseLong, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:51	ibdknox	solussd_: works just fine for me with the change I suggested
14:51	daniel_	,(.parseLong "100011" 2)
14:51	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: parseLong for class java.lang.String>
14:51	jsabeaudry	,(java.lang.Long/parseLong "0110" 2)
14:51	clojurebot	6
14:51	solussd_	ibdknox: … wtf. ill try again I guess!
14:51	daniel_	ah ;)
14:52	ibdknox	solussd_: I simplified your case, but here's what the params look like: https://refheap.com/paste/2352
14:52	solussd_	ibdknox: i did this: https://gist.github.com/513d360c15bb1f15827a
14:53	daniel_	jsabeaudry: ends up looking like 71776119061217280, how do i see it in 1's and 0's?
14:54	jsabeaudry	daniel_, you want to print it or you want to parse it?
14:54	daniel_	both :D
14:54	daniel_	i want to do bitwise operations on them and also print them
14:55	jsabeaudry	,(.toBinaryString 44)
14:55	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: toBinaryString for class java.lang.Long>
14:55	jsabeaudry	,(toBinaryString 44)
14:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: toBinaryString in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:55	ibdknox	solussd_: your exact code works for me. How are you calling it?
14:56	daniel_	,(toBinaryString. 44)
14:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: toBinaryString, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:56	jsabeaudry	,(java.lang.Long/toBinaryString 44)
14:56	clojurebot	"101100"
14:56	daniel_	oh yay
14:56	ibdknox	solussd_: do you only have one form for your body?
14:57	ibdknox	solussd_: also are you sure you picked up the code changes?
14:57	solussd_	ibdknox: here's how i'm calling it: https://gist.github.com/513d360c15bb1f15827a
14:58	solussd_	ibdknox: changed code and ran lein run
14:58	timvisher	anyone know if it's possible to tell leiningen about hosts it shouldn't run through the proxy?
14:59	ibdknox	solussd_: you invocation works for me too
14:59	ibdknox	your*
15:00	ibdknox	solussd_: maybe you didn't save the file or something?
15:00	solussd_	ibdknox: saved. :) so confused.. lein clean
15:00	solussd_	ibdknox: im runing clojure 1.3, if that matters
15:01	ibdknox	me too
15:04	timvisher	hmm... leiningen 2 fails to create a new project? https://gist.github.com/2492242
15:05	technomancy	timvisher: standard "download bin/lein" install, or are you running from a checkout?
15:05	AimHere	daniel_, Something like (read-string (apply str (cons "2r" (map #(if (= % piece) 1 0) vct))))) seems to do what I think you want
15:06	timvisher	technomancy: standard
15:06	technomancy	timvisher: any profiles active?
15:06	timvisher	got yesterday i think, so i should be after the bugs here https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22java.lang.IllegalArgumentException%3A%20No%20implementation%20of%20method%3A%20%3Amake-reader%20of%20protocol%3A%20%23%27clojure.java.io%2FIOFactory%20found%20for%20class%3A%20nil%22
15:07	pandeiro	is there some kind of order-keys fn to convert a hash-map to a sorted-map?
15:07	technomancy	timvisher: oh, yeah if you're on windows you might need a newer lein-newnew
15:07	technomancy	try putting 0.2.7 in :plugins in the :user profile
15:09	timvisher_	technomancy: sorry, got kicked or something
15:09	fliebel	pandeiro: you could do (apply sorted-map m) I think.
15:09	timvisher_	newer newnew?
15:09	carllerche	is it possible to get a 3rd party java class to behave like a fn?
15:09	technomancy	timvisher_: try putting [lein-newnew "0.2.7"] in :plugins in the :user profile
15:09	fliebel	no...
15:10	Vinzent	carllerche, I think you can implement clojure.lang.IFn or something
15:10	carllerche	Vinzent: Yeah… which unfortunately only works if i have control of the class :-/
15:10	amalloy	not a 3rd-party class
15:12	Vinzent	carllerche, ah, yeah, only if you proxy it. Too bad it's not a protocol
15:12	timvisher_	is it possible to specify ntlm authentication using lein2?
15:18	di-csuehs	Is there a more appropriate idiom for def'ing a connection to a service such that the service need not be available at compile time other than (delay... ?
15:19	gfredericks	di-csuehs: someone said the other day you can do (when-not compile-files ...)
15:20	hiredman	di-csuehs: I really recommend against making that kind of thing a global
15:20	di-csuehs	gfred: ;) yeah.
15:20	di-csuehs	hiredman: I'm all ears...
15:21	daniel_	thanks AimHere
15:21	di-csuehs	hireman: this kind of issue around configuration and instanciation of collaborative service connections is going to be a theme in the work I do.
15:21	hiredman	di-csuehs: hmmm?
15:21	solussd__	ibdknox: you'll never guess what was wrong………. I was ssh'd into another machine w/ the same repo checked out. I was running 'lein run' on the other machine while editing the code in another window in emacs on my local machine. I feel dumb…. :D
15:22	hiredman	di-csuehs: so, to run a program you have some entry function, right? main or whatever
15:22	di-csuehs	hiredman: yes.
15:22	hiredman	main or whatever can create a connection and pass it to the functions it calls
15:23	hiredman	I know, it's kind of nuts, and out there
15:24	di-csuehs	hiredman: I've considered it. I'll end up having several services I am passing in.
15:24	hiredman	sounds good
15:25	di-csuehs	hiredman really seems to ugly up the code
15:25	hiredman	have you decided what you are going to do when the a global component fails?
15:25	TimMc	solussd__: That's quite a special case of "forgetting to save the buffer". :-)
15:25	TimMc	well, rather "editing the wrong file"
15:25	solussd__	TimMc: ;)
15:26	di-csuehs	hiredman: so far, 2 of 3 have a pooling mechanism, but one is subject to failure.
15:26	TimMc	I've definitely edited the wrong project.clj before. 20 minutes down the drain...
15:26	hiredman	di-csuehs: pooling doesn't protect against all possible failures
15:26	di-csuehs	hiredman: I've had other projects that only had pooled db connections. but I know this will not be the case most of the time.
15:27	hiredman	what if your machine's network hiccups for some reason, and the network connection to the pooled resources is unreliable?
15:27	di-csuehs	hiredman: sure, but it allowed me to be lazy and not address it because it was good enough for now. I no longer have that luxury, so...I feel a "functional programming inspired mind shift" coming.
15:28	hiredman	(someone fat fingers a iptables rule in chef or whatever)
15:28	timvisher_	don't mean to spam, but has anyone configured authentication for a proxy in leiningen 2?
15:29	di-csuehs	hiredman: I'm sold on the idea of improving the mechanism, just not sure which way to go yet.
15:29	di-csuehs	hiredman: I (think) I don't want to re-establish the connection each call.
15:29	hiredman	di-csuehs: one way to go that is sort of a middle ground is using binding
15:30	hiredman	di-csuehs: but you connection pooling
15:30	hiredman	have
15:31	di-csuehs	hiredman: sure...but let's say I don't...because that is also representative of services I expect to use in the future.
15:32	zamaterian	timvisher_, I have made some changes to pomegrante - that enables it to use proxy authentication - but that part is not implemented in lein2.
15:32	hiredman	di-csuehs: what kind of app is this?
15:32	di-csuehs	hiredman: it seems like there should be a well-known functional programming pattern for working with a service that may need to be initialized. I'm just not realizing what to look for OR I am bringing OO baggage and not thinking about it the right way.
15:33	timvisher_	zamaterian: ah...
15:33	hiredman	di-csuehs: this isn't about functional programming, it's about building reliable systems
15:33	di-csuehs	hiredman: this one is a RESTful api.
15:33	hiredman	you need to isolate components to isloate failure
15:33	yoklov	I know this is a weird question, but is there any way I can use macros to unbox a vector/array/any representation of 3 numbers at compile time? (specifically in clojurescript, though i dont see why the answer would be cljs-specific)
15:34	hiredman	globals are not isolated
15:34	di-csuehs	hiredman: sure...they are shared, allowing failure to affect all threads and collaborations.
15:34	hiredman	di-csuehs: put a queue between access to the resource and the web requests
15:34	di-csuehs	hiredman: interesting.
15:35	zamaterian	timvisher_, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/main.clj#L131 and https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/classpath.clj#L82
15:35	hiredman	whatever processes the queue will need to know how to handle connection failures, etc, but the webrequest doesn't need to care
15:35	dnolen	yoklov: do you mean generate the code to extract the fields?
15:36	yoklov	dnolen: I guess, though I know destructuring is very doable. Right now the boxing and unboxing around function calls is a big slowdown
15:36	yoklov	though that's with records
15:37	di-csuehs	hiredman: so establishment and release of the connection is managed by the queue processor...it could drop it when it sees fit and start it up when it needs it.
15:38	hiredman	right
15:38	di-csuehs	hiredman: the web request might call code that eventually depends on a promise or a future, etc. ?
15:38	hiredman	unfortunately I don't know of a nice way to avoid making the queue global
15:38	hiredman	di-csuehs: right
15:38	yoklov	dnolen: hm. basically my question is whether or not there's a way for me to say something like (point-add p1 p2), and have in the code it deal with 3 variables instead of some type
15:38	hiredman	di-csuehs: and can include a timeout
15:39	hiredman	the global queue thing is sort of an artifact of existing clojure web stuff
15:39	hiredman	not a limitation of the design
15:39	yoklov	dnolen: or do you think i wouldn't have a noticable performance difference between 3-element js arrays and unboxed values
15:40	hiredman	none of them (that I know of) let you specify an init function and then pass the value of that init function to handlers
15:40	timvisher_	zamaterian: interesting behavior. if i specify a user name and empty password, i seem to get in through the proxy, but now i'm back to the original problem i had with no proper implementation of :make-reader
15:40	hiredman	that might be an interesting addition to defroutes
15:40	timvisher_	but progress, nonetheless! ^_^
15:40	hiredman	"compute this once, and pass it to everything under this route"
15:42	di-csuehs	hiredman: It seems like there should be some idioms around such services (even if they never go out of process/machine).
15:42	dnolen	yoklov: if you want absolute speed you could write an interesting macro DSL like i said before. (vec-add2 p1 p2) could be a macro.
15:42	yoklov	dnolen: yeah, that's what i'm doing
15:42	dnolen	yoklov: oh, k. so what's the issue then?
15:43	dnolen	yoklov: arrays and defrecord should be equivalent in perf as long as you not doing keyword lookup and using field access instead with .-
15:43	dnolen	you're not
15:43	yoklov	dnolen: how to store the points internally, mostly
15:44	yoklov	would arrays be slow?
15:44	di-csuehs	hiredman: Thank you, very much. That's been helpful. If I recode this, I'll have to sanitize it and post it.
15:44	yoklov	probably not
15:44	dnolen	yoklov: I don't think so, but I think types/record w/ field access would be faster.
15:44	yoklov	huh, really?
15:44	dnolen	yoklov: I think so, can't know for sure w/o benching tho.
15:45	dnolen	yoklov: V8 I know optimized array of fixed sizes, I don't think the other engines do.
15:45	dnolen	optimizes
15:53	dnolen	yoklov: I did a quick test, deftype/record seem to have an edge on V8 and JavaScriptCore
15:53	yoklov	dnolen: wow, really? that is extremely surprising
15:56	dnolen	yoklov: https://gist.github.com/2492799
15:57	dnolen	yoklov: that's with simple optimizations - with advanced optimizations GClosure just eliminates the type perf test :P
15:59	dnolen	yoklov: did you get that gist?
15:59	yoklov	dnolen: yeah
15:59	amalloy	hey TimMc, remember a year ago when you referred me to a story re: turkish dotless-i localization? it came up in conversation today, but i can't find any credible sources for it. do you know if it's an actual true story?
15:59	yoklov	dnolen: http://jsperf.com/array-vs-obj-vs-unboxed
16:00	yoklov	though, to be fair those are mutable
16:01	amalloy	(original conversation at http://lazybot.org/logs/#clojure/2011-04-12 for reference)
16:01	arohner	amalloy: http://www.moserware.com/2008/02/does-your-code-pass-turkey-test.html?
16:01	yoklov	dnolen: i'm assuming the cljs gets compiled to something similar.
16:01	amalloy	so far i've found the story republished on gizmodo, dailymail, and the inquirer. not very encouraging
16:03	dnolen	yoklov: my macro suggestion was to unbox and not create intermediate values, and only construct a value at the very end.
16:04	yoklov	dnolen: okay, yeah, that sounds fast
16:04	yoklov	hm.
16:04	dnolen	yoklov: and being a macro it would be portable to Clojure - it's also interesting enough for a pretty cool blog post I think :)
16:05	yoklov	dnolen: haha, it would be.
16:05	daniel_	,(bit-shift-right 2r001110 2)
16:05	clojurebot	3
16:06	amalloy	arohner: that looks like a reasonable article on the things you have to do to be really i18n correct, but i was currently looking for confirmation of http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-puts-three-more-in-jail, which would be a more compelling argument that it's important to be i18n correct
16:06	daniel_	,(java.lang.Long/toBinaryString (bit-shift-right 2r001110 2))
16:06	clojurebot	"11"
16:06	daniel_	hmmmmm
16:07	daniel_	how can i get from 001110 to 000011? thats what i was trying above
16:07	dnolen	yoklov: another option would thinking about transients I could imagine - (persistent! (unit (mul (add (transient v1) v2) 2.5))
16:07	daniel_	,(java.lang.Long/toBinaryString (bit-shift-right 001110 2))
16:07	clojurebot	"10010010"
16:08	amalloy	you want...padding with zeroes, daniel_?
16:08	daniel_	yeah, and for it to remain the same length
16:09	daniel_	its for a chess bitboard, so i can shift 8 for a pawn move (for example)
16:09	yoklov	dnolen: transients are still probably not as fast as native arrays though
16:09	amalloy	shrug write padding yourself. it's not very surprising that no built-ins do this, because they deal with actual numbers, and you care about the particular textual representation
16:09	daniel_	the c++ implementation i saw was very simple
16:09	daniel_	00010110 << 2 something like that
16:09	beffbernard	so what piece are you tring to move daniel_?
16:09	beffbernard	pawn?
16:10	beffbernard	and which is a1 and h8 in your bitboard?
16:10	daniel_	beffbernard: thats not the issue at the moment, i just want to shift a 64-bit binary number a certain number of bits left and right
16:10	daniel_	and pad with 0's and if something goes off the end its lost forever
16:10	dnolen	yoklov: transient are just mutable types, I don't see how they would be any slower than a mutable type.
16:10	daniel_	2 secs, brb
16:10	amalloy	storing a chess board as a bitstring sounds like a severe case of premature optimization
16:10	hiredman	daniel_: there are no unsigned numbers on the jvm
16:11	hiredman	amalloy: I don't believe he wants it as a string
16:11	beffbernard	amalloy: it's conceptually simple
16:11	hiredman	I believe he wants it unsigned and he was demonstrating the signed nature by converting it to a string
16:11	beffbernard	he just wants a long.. doesn't matter if it's signed
16:11	hiredman	hard to say, some times people are weird
16:11	yoklov	dnolen: oh, I though you could only have transient collections, not transient types from deftype
16:12	amalloy	hiredman: no, i realize he wants an N-bit integer
16:12	amalloy	a bitmask instead of a bitstring, might be better in my sentence
16:12	hiredman	beffbernard: oh, right, because they are unsigned shifting operations
16:12	hiredman	there
16:12	hiredman	so the number being signed or not doesn't matter
16:13	beffbernard	hiredman: you got it
16:13	dnolen	yoklov: it's just a protocol. Though of coursed unboxed everything would probably win.
16:14	dnolen	yoklov: this is definitely an interesting approach in the context of games - and it seems like more than a couple of people are interesting in doing games w/ Clojure/Script ;)
16:14	hiredman	beffbernard: so what's his problem then?
16:14	beffbernard	so a pawn move is bit-shift-left 8 for that bit the pawn is on
16:15	yoklov	dnolen: i wouldnt really know how to go about unboxed everything, to be honest. protocols carry a performance overhead that i'd want to avoid in the inner part of of a rendering loop
16:16	yoklov	dnolen: arrays might allow me to swap out easily with Float32Array for potentially(?) increased performance
16:16	dnolen	yoklov: gotta run, if I find some time I'll write down how I think this can be done.
16:16	beffbernard	,(java.lang.Long/toBinaryString (bit-shift-left 1 8))
16:17	clojurebot	"100000000"
16:17	yoklov	dnolen: cool, I'll see if I can do it with just arrays. I think I'd know how to go about that
16:17	beffbernard	it's moved from "1"
16:18	hiredman	,(count (.getBytes "c4"))
16:18	clojurebot	2
16:22	daniel_	beffbernard: thats what im doing, and it causes there to be 0's added or removed from the right
16:22	daniel_	which is not exactly what i want, i need 64 bits at all times to represent the board
16:22	beffbernard	daniel_: are you using a long to represent your bitboard?
16:23	beffbernard	or some sort of string representation?
16:23	daniel_	i havent decided yet, whatever works
16:23	daniel_	i have it in string form atm and am converting to binary
16:24	beffbernard	I wrote a bitboard chess engine when I was in uni and I store it in a long
16:24	beffbernard	0 implies each position is empty
16:25	daniel_	yeah, a long would work
16:25	daniel_	but then how can i do the bitshift
16:25	beffbernard	with start bitwise operations
16:26	beffbernard	standard*
16:26	beffbernard	so it's easy to test whether a move is legal
16:26	beffbernard	I store my board like this.. it was in java at the time
16:27	beffbernard	for each piece.. pawn, rook, knight, etc.. I had a bitboard… then I had a board for each color.. which was simply all the pieces and'ed
16:27	daniel_	yep, thats what i plan on doing, i think thats the idea of a bitboard
16:27	daniel_	12 different boards
16:28	beffbernard	I added two more.. one for each color
16:28	beffbernard	makes it slightly more convenient
16:29	daniel_	a board for each piece of each colour = 12 boards
16:30	beffbernard	Yes you're correct.. but I also added all the black occupied spaces and white occupied spaces
16:32	daniel_	ah, ok
16:33	daniel_	i suppose if it was Java they were all mutable, how would you keep the state in clojure?
16:33	daniel_	and did you store the bitboards in a size 14 array?
16:33	beffbernard	they can stil be immutable...
16:33	beffbernard	yup
16:34	daniel_	i guess i will have to use an atom to record the current state of the game
16:34	beffbernard	(let world (atom []))
16:34	daniel_	ja
16:34	beffbernard	yeah
16:35	beffbernard	(let [world (atom [])] …) is what i wanted to type
16:35	daniel_	ok, i'll try changing my code to use Longs and see if the bit-shift works as i need
16:36	daniel_	i get this java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "0000000011111111000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:37	daniel_	unless i do (java.lang.Long/parseLong bitboard 2)
16:37	beffbernard	I wouldn't use any string representation unless it was to print the board
16:37	daniel_	then i lose the 0's at the start
16:37	daniel_	beffbernard: im using longs and then java.lang.Long/getBinaryString to print
16:38	daniel_	beffbernard: im using longs and then java.lang.Long/toBinaryString* to print
16:39	patchwork	How do I change the directory from within a lein plugin?
16:39	patchwork	I want it to run a command in the context of a subproject
16:40	daniel_	how can i evaluate the type of something? (typeOf. 2) for example
16:40	patchwork	daniel_: (class 2)
16:40	technomancy	patchwork: in lein2 you can rebind dir in leiningen.core.eval
16:40	Raynes	ibdknox: You're dangerously close to your target. It would be real sad to see it fail at this point.
16:40	technomancy	patchwork: but that only works for new subprocesses; you can't change the JVM's current directory
16:41	daniel_	thanks patchwork
16:41	Raynes	ibdknox: Who can we solicit to tweet about it? I'll see if I can find Bill Gate's phone number.
16:41	patchwork	technomancy: So I am starting a jetty server from the context of the subproject, does that count as a subprocess?
16:41	technomancy	patchwork: if you're changing the dir in leiningen and running the code in eval-in-project it should work
16:42	patchwork	technomancy: Cool thanks!
16:42	patchwork	I'll give that a shot
17:06	solussd	can I capture a gensym in a macrolet'd macro?
17:07	technomancy	macrolet?
17:08	solussd	clojure.tools.macro/macrolet
17:09	solussd	:D
17:12	amalloy	technomancy: macrolet is fab
17:13	amalloy	solussd: you can do anything in macrolet you could do in a defmacro
17:13	Raynes	macrolet is pretty cool.
17:13	Raynes	Never had occasion to use it though.
17:13	Raynes	But I don't really ever use macros anymore either.
17:14	solussd	amalloy: i've only played with in in the context of LOL; wondering, can I capture a gensym from within my defmacro within a syntax quote in my macrolet'd macro?
17:14	felideon	wait till you hear about symbol-macrolet
17:14	felideon	(not really)
17:15	amalloy	solussd: foo# gensyms are specific to the syntax-quote they're in
17:15	zakwilson	I have actually used symbol-macrolet in real code.
17:15	felideon	zakwilson: me too. i regret it though. :)
17:15	amalloy	this is entirely unrelated to macrolet though
17:15	zakwilson	I don't. It did what I wanted.
17:16	felideon	zakwilson: ah cool
17:16	amalloy	indeed, i stole a cool use of symbol-macrolet from chouser
17:16	amalloy	https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/utils.clj#L201
17:16	zakwilson	I'm trying to remember exactly what I used it for or find the code.
17:20	Raynes	To whom it my concern: I just graduated high school.
17:20	cshell	congrats:)
17:20	rhc	Raynes: congrats
17:20	pipeline	definitely preferable to the alternative
17:20	Raynes	Heh
17:20	jodaro	i'm concerned
17:20	jodaro	congrats
17:20	dnolen	Raynes: congrats!
17:21	zakwilson	http://pastebin.com/cW4XBZwR <-- found it. Not only did I use symbol-macrolet, but I used it inside a macro. Enough meta?
17:21	zakwilson	Raynes: proof that on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog!
17:21	metellus	a dog graduating high school would be pretty impressive
17:22	Raynes	Indeed.
17:22	jodaro	sounds like a good basis for a disney movie
17:22	jodaro	High School Spot
17:22	Raynes	AirBud Goes To High School
17:22	Wild_Cat	they already made a dozen Air Bud movie, why not this one? :p
17:22	amalloy	zakwilson: symbol-macrolet is primitive enough that you'd almost-always use it from a macro
17:22	amalloy	it's more of a building-block than a real tool
17:23	zakwilson	I thought I had used it in something higher-level. I haven't done any CL in ages.
17:24	amalloy	zakwilson: well, tools.macro adds symbol-macrolet as well as macrolet
17:24	amalloy	so it doesn't have to be in CL
17:25	zakwilson	You just HAD to tell me that. Now I'm going to end up using it. In production code.
17:26	solussd	it's in my production code. being the only *lisp programmer at your company has its perks- no one will ever ask me wtf it is
17:27	zakwilson	Well, my projects tend to be freelance with just me as a programmer, or personal projects that are entirely mine.
17:28	dnolen	ibdknox: light table kickstarter is just rolling along now it seems
17:32	cshell	did it get 200K?
17:34	metajack	114k right now. almost broke 1k $15 backers too
17:35	cshell	wow, crazy
17:35	jodaro	hopefully ibdknox will blow some of it on a 'got funded' party
17:35	cshell	it looks like it could be pretty cool
17:35	cshell	lol
17:42	solussd	noir question- why can't I have a page route of /blah/:id and /blah/search/ (that takes a query string)? the first route eats everything that should go to the second too. :/
17:43	amalloy	don't put them in that order
17:44	solussd	amalloy order? I actually swapped their location in the source file, no effect.
17:44	amalloy	the whole idea of compojure routes is that the first one that returns a non-nil response is the correct handler, and they're consulted in order
17:44	amalloy	i guess i don't know how noir orders things for you
17:44	aaelony	me too, thanks to template-cljs
17:44	mefesto	not sure if im reading out-dated docs but is it true that google closure doesn't want you to use a document ready event?
17:45	amalloy	but if you were using compojure this would be a simple ordering problem
17:45	amalloy	mefesto: they really don't
17:47	mefesto	i guess i'll have to change my ways
17:52	mefesto	i'm used to jquery and how a lot of the event handling is wired together in the document ready event. is this an "acceptable" way using clojurescript? https://refheap.com/paste/2360
17:52	mefesto	i'd like to avoid sprinkling script tags all throughout the html
17:53	arohner	amalloy: re: your turkey question. My sister-in-law lived in turkey, and she found the language mixup plausible
17:54	dnolen	mefesto: GClosure actually considers it an anti-pattern as it affects page load time. but really you can put your script tag wherever you want as long as you're outputting a single source file.
17:55	dnolen	mefesto: that does make it somewhat harder to debug. Hopefully this will be moot point soon - source mapping.
17:57	mefesto	yeah i was reading their reasoning which makes perfect sense but it just goes against what i've become so accustomed to doing.
17:57	dnolen	mefesto: nothing prevents you from continuing to do it the jQuery way - jayq makes it even easier
17:58	mefesto	well if im going to go this route i'd like to follow it's idioms ... its. just. hard. :)
17:59	amalloy	arohner: thanks!
18:01	dnolen	mefesto: fwiw - I don't think it's important to fret over page load times the way that Google does - unless your Google size.
18:01	dnolen	mefesto: best to just do whatever feels most comfortable.
18:02	mefesto	dnolen: true. i tend to get caught up in "the way" too much when switching to new tools :-\
18:02	mefesto	i.e. the right way (for this tool)
18:02	mefesto	to which most reply, there is no "one, right" way :)
18:05	redwire	Does someone know for a good guide for setting up clojure on OS X 10.7? I've been having a hard time setting up 1.4.0 to work, clojure-contrib included (I'm new at clojure, too). clj works after a macports install, but using it to try to build clojure-contrib fails.
18:06	technomancy	clojurebot: macports?
18:06	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:06	technomancy	=(
18:06	dnolen	redwire: don't use macports - don't use brew. Just install leiningen.
18:06	technomancy	clojurebot: installing clojure?
18:06	clojurebot	Clojure isn't like most languages in that it doesn't need to be installed; it's just a library. Once you have a JVM, you can set up a project with something like Leiningen (http://j.mp/leiningen), which will pull Clojure in for you.
18:06	technomancy	aha; that's the one
18:06	dnolen	redwire: and don't bother with clojure-contrib it's deprecated.
18:08	redwire	I thought all sorts of things used clojure contrib? I see it all the time when I'm looking for particular function, it always seems to pop up.
18:08	amalloy	the web is a medium with a high rate of decay. two years ago, using all of contrib was very common
18:08	hiredman	:(
18:09	amalloy	and you're finding blog posts that are from that era
18:09	redwire	This is true.
18:09	redwire	I want technomancy's leiningen?
18:09	amalloy	yeah, accept no substitutes
18:10	redwire	Aye
18:10	mdeboard	redwire: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
18:10	solussd	I <3 leiningen- makes clojure the most convenient language to build in (out of what I use anyway)
18:11	redwire	Wow that's saying a lot.
18:17	redwire	I like this leiningen so far. Thank you, everyone.
18:18	technomancy	yay =)
18:18	redwire	Oh hi technomancy. o.O
18:22	gfredericks	technomancy: :D
18:22	ibdknox	technomancy: I'm happy to serve as a henchman and wait outside their apartments/scaring the neighbors as appropriate
18:23	gfredericks	Vietnamese Leiningen Peddlers would be a good name for a group of some kind
18:23	ibdknox	especially if Nerf guns might be involved.
18:24	technomancy	http://fuckyeahfingerguns.tumblr.com/
18:24	Wild_Cat	sounds like a good name for a punk band
18:24	ibdknox	technomancy: hahah well done :p
18:26	zakwilson	There was something I used in one project from contrib that still doesn't appear to have been replaced.
18:26	zakwilson	Though I can't remember what it is now.
18:26	gfredericks	under "archive" it shows technomancy riding atop the dalai lama
18:27	gfredericks	I think that is window-size-sensitive though
18:39	ipostelnik	what's a good way to debug why "lein deps" is slow
18:40	technomancy	ipostelnik: two things: 0) are you on 1.7.1, and 1) do you actually need to run lein deps? (probably not)
18:40	ipostelnik	technomancy, I'm on 1.7.0
18:40	ipostelnik	I'll upgrade
18:41	technomancy	step 2: stop running lein deps =)
18:41	ipostelnik	even when I don't run it, lein uberjar does
18:41	ipostelnik	what's the alternative to lein deps?
18:41	fmancinelli	Hi everybody... Just to announce that I've written a little plugin for Leiningen for compiling Less CSS files. You can find it here: https://github.com/fmancinelli/lein-lesscss - Comments are welcome. (FYI it's my first Clojure project)
18:41	technomancy	ipostelnik: just let lein fetch the deps when it decides it needs to
18:41	technomancy	but 1.7.1 will fix the uberjar issue
18:41	ipostelnik	I have a "main" project and a "library" project that I'm working on
18:42	ipostelnik	often I need to fix or extend the "library" project, then build "main" project
18:43	technomancy	have you tried using the checkouts/ directory?
18:43	ipostelnik	noidi, I'm not familiar with this feature
18:44	ipostelnik	uberjar is definitely the bigger issue though, I'm glag simple upgrade to 1.7.1 helps
18:52	ipostelnik	checkouts directory is awesome!
19:41	nDuff	Hmm.
19:42	nDuff	I get a very different context classloader attached to my thread when using swank-clojure as opposed to nrepl
19:54	Roxxi	Is there a clojure idiom for zip? (e.g. (zip '(a b c) '(1 2 3)) => '((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)))
19:54	brehaut	roxxi: map
19:54	Roxxi	ehst
19:54	technomancy	clojurebot: zip?
19:54	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
19:55	Roxxi	err
19:55	Roxxi	ah
19:55	Roxxi	awesome
19:59	meiji11	is there a way to use recur in a function that takes a variable number of arguments?
20:00	meiji11	writing (apply fn-name arg-list) works, of course, but I'd prefer not to consume the stack.
20:03	metellus	have it take a list or vector instead, maybe
20:05	meiji11	yeah, I could just introduce a small wrapper function.. that will work. thanks.
20:06	technomancy	meiji11: recur interacts in very surprising ways with destructuring and rest args
20:06	technomancy	the details of which escape me at the moment
20:08	meiji11	it seems that way. shouldn't that be documented somewhere?
20:09	technomancy	=(
20:11	zanes	meiji11: s/documented somewhere/fixed/
20:13	hiredman	given the implementation of recur and the implementation of varargs fixing it would be very tricky
20:13	technomancy	also re-applying destructuring might slow things down
20:13	technomancy	considering most loop/recur usage is in tight loops
20:14	hiredman	technomancy: I don't think there is an issue with destructuring, just rest args
20:15	hiredman	if you recur, you jump to the top of the function, and the destructuring has a change to be applied
20:15	hiredman	but for rest args the top of the function is already too late
20:16	technomancy	ah, sure. been a while since I ran into this.
20:17	hiredman	yeah, me too
20:17	hiredman	not something I deal with on a regular basis
20:17	technomancy	thankfully
20:17	hiredman	Yes
20:28	nDuff	ipostelnik: howdy!
21:09	aniero	hmm, when will clojuredocs.org be updated?
21:13	bhenry	aniero: when you update it.
21:13	aniero	for 1.4.0?
21:14	aniero	i'm ok with a "PDI" response, i just don't know how the site is operated/managed
21:14	bhenry	i'm just giving you a hard time. i don't think community has the capabilities to change the layout of a version, just the docs themselves for what's there.
21:16	aniero	hmm, looks like the docs analyzer requires a manual update in order to handle the next version
22:22	devn	,((every-pred odd? number?) (range 0 10))
22:22	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Argument must be an integer: clojure.lang.LazySeq@9ebadac6>
22:22	devn	,((every-pred odd? number?) 1 3 5 7 9)
22:22	clojurebot	true
22:22	devn	^-cool. never knew about that fn.
22:23	ibdknox	dnolen: Got off the phone with the MITx guys - very neat experience :)
22:25	kovasb	ibdknox: cool. did the daring fireball post explode your inbox again?
22:25	ibdknox	not really
22:25	ibdknox	interestingly enough
22:26	ibdknox	I wonder if most of those folks had already seen it through HN or Reddit
22:26	kovasb	yeah thats funny. likely true
22:26	devn	lol. found this in the #clojure archives...
22:26	devn	,(letfn[(!-?>[&$ &!](if(>,&!,1)(!-?>@(->>,&$,(*,&!)ref)(->,&!,dec))&$))](!-?>,1,5))
22:26	kovasb	still, the audience is so huge
22:26	clojurebot	120
22:26	kovasb	did see the kickstarter got a a kick tho :)
22:27	ibdknox	absolutely, UncleBobMartin and him helped a lot there
22:27	Raynes	ibdknox: Why were you talking to MITx?
22:27	ibdknox	Raynes: they wanted to talk to me
22:27	Raynes	About?
22:27	ibdknox	Light Table has a lot of potential as a teaching tool and they're building a teaching platform :)
22:28	Raynes	Tell them GIVE ME YOUR MONIES
22:28	kovasb	call it "consulting"
22:28	ibdknox	haha :)
22:28	muhoo	mitch resnick and those guys have been going towards something like this for a long time, but haven't quite got there yet
22:29	ibdknox	muhoo: I'm surprised I didn't hear from one of them to be honest
22:29	devn	Raynes: no one wants dirty grant money
22:29	kovasb	yeah, you don't know what they had to do to get it
22:30	devn	yeah...like...write grants
22:30	devn	ewwww
22:30	devn	;)
22:30	kovasb	deal with committees
22:31	kovasb	getting money out of academia has to be worse than enterprise sales
22:31	kovasb	but i digress
22:31	ibdknox	I dunno about that.. enterprise sales is soul sucking
22:31	muhoo	sussman, wow
22:32	ibdknox	Yeah, it was cool
22:32	ibdknox	very down to earth and a lot of fun to talk to
22:44	devn	115k and counting
22:44	devn	shouldn't be long now...
22:44	muhoo	i'm so ready to take my chances on cljs now, after having to write stuff like this: https://refheap.com/paste/2363
22:45	devn	heh
22:45	ibdknox	muhoo: what's wrong with that? ;)
22:45	aniero	muhoo: i'd love to see the cljs version of that
22:45	ibdknox	it's probably not that much better
22:45	ibdknox	function will be fn though
22:45	devn	^-i was thinking that but didnt want to say it
22:45	ibdknox	which is nice :)
22:46	muhoo	or #(
22:46	ibdknox	you can't nest those
22:46	muhoo	reader macro, ah
22:46	devn	(map #(... #(...)) ...) => kaboom
22:46	ibdknox	really though the difference comes from the way CLJS suggests you should code
22:46	ibdknox	it will cause you to write that differently
22:47	ibdknox	and that will be better
22:47	devn	yeah, it's all about strongly suggesting idioms where none exist
22:47	muhoo	the thing that annoys me is this crap: }); }});});
22:47	devn	err convention is i think what i meant
22:48	muhoo	like a winking bearded dude
22:48	yoklov	muhoo: i mean, versus )))))))?
22:48	devn	muhoo: http://www.afterhysteria.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/zoidberg.png
22:48	devn	like that?
22:48	devn	:)
22:49	muhoo	yeah, at least they're consistent and easier to match up. krusty the parens.
22:49	yoklov	haha
22:49	yoklov	i like the parens better too
22:49	yoklov	more comfortable
22:49	muhoo	and there's comp and (-> and such too. anyway, my complaint quota is up for today :-)
22:50	devn	muhoo: it's not complaint. it's a style thing
22:50	ibdknox	I was writing some python today
22:50	devn	that can be wildly superficial, but it can also be legitimate
22:50	muhoo	i am having so much fun with clojure/noir now, i'm not going to let js harsh my buzz
22:50	devn	there's room for style in any language
22:50	aniero	muhoo: use coffeescript ;)
22:50	ibdknox	and I realized exactly how much clojure has ruined all other languages for me
22:50	mbriggs	anyone have any resources on how to structure larger sized functional apps? (books/papers/blog posts/whatever)
22:50	muhoo	heheee
22:51	devn	mbriggs: like...code organization?
22:51	mbriggs	i can think of a half dozen books on how to do it with oo, but there is a serious lack of talking about it in fp
22:51	mbriggs	devn: yeah
22:51	devn	mbriggs: be careful with code organization. it can be a trap.
22:51	aniero	mbriggs: the oreilly clojure book has some info
22:51	devn	in the sense that it is largely not as necessary as you think it probably is
22:52	aniero	but i'm still on "hello world" so i'm not going to worry about it yet
22:52	devn	i came from ruby where i needed to look at 10 files to figure out the call chain
22:52	devn	clojure doesnt have that problem
22:52	mbriggs	yeah
22:52	mbriggs	but like
22:52	devn	id rather have a few big files honestly
22:52	aniero	i'm getting the impression that a lot of things can end up as very compact bits of code
22:53	mbriggs	when you hit 3-400k loc, things usually need to look dramatically different then a few thousand
22:53	aniero	mbriggs: but take a look at the basic leiningen project skeleton
22:53	mbriggs	i was wondering what that would look like in clojure
22:53	aniero	when you've written 300kloc of clojure, you'll have already figured out how to organize it!
22:53	mbriggs	haha
22:53	devn	mbriggs: that's seriously true
22:54	ibdknox	300kloc is an OS
22:54	devn	here's what i see happening:
22:54	devn	you write 3k lines of code in one file.
22:54	devn	since clojure depends on the order of declaration and definition
22:54	devn	you end up with logical chunks of functions which could be their own files
22:54	devn	so you do that when you need to
22:54	mbriggs	right
22:54	devn	doing it prematurely gives you problems
22:55	brehaut	ibdknox: or hello world in java
22:55	ibdknox	~rimshot
22:55	clojurebot	Badum, tish
22:55	devn	he'll be here all week, ladies and gentlemen!
22:55	mbriggs	haha
22:55	brehaut	try the veal
22:55	muhoo	HelloHelperFactory
22:56	devn	StaticIntMainVoidFactory
22:56	tmciver	How do I kill a running jetty (ring) that I started from the repl?
22:56	muhoo	that's FInalStaticIntMainVoidFactory to you, buddy
22:57	devn	tmciver: with fire
22:57	devn	muhoo: PublicStaticIntMainVoidFactory
22:57	tmciver	devn: how do I get fire?
22:57	tmciver	;)
22:57	muhoo	haha
22:57	brehaut	tmciver: you hold on to the server that is returned and the call .stop or something
22:57	muhoo	tmciver: keep a reference to it laying around after you start it
22:57	devn	tmciver: two sticks. rub them together vigorously.
22:57	muhoo	(def srv (server/start...))
22:57	muhoo	then (.stop srv)
22:58	devn	tmciver: what muhoo said. i keep a (comment "start and stop server" ...) block to do that
22:58	LuminousMonkey	I have a namespace of utility functions that I found somewhere and shamelessly copied.
22:58	tmciver	muhoo: so if I didn't grab a ref, I'm screwed?
22:58	muhoo	tmciver: afaict, yes
22:59	muhoo	there may be a way to fish it out of something you do have a handle on, though
22:59	devn	tmciver: is this in production or?
22:59	tmciver	nah
22:59	muhoo	(-> something .parent .otherthing .server .stop) , etc
22:59	tmciver	a toy
22:59	devn	okay...so sticks...
22:59	devn	;)
23:00	brehaut	tmciver: http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction > Servers and Adapters
23:00	muhoo	killall -9 java
23:00	brehaut	but yeah, you are probably hosed
23:00	LuminousMonkey	https://gist.github.com/2495345
23:00	tmciver	muhoo: that will kill my swank too
23:00	devn	is anyone else bothered by people doing this in their clojure code: [ 1 2 3 ]
23:01	devn	or \n})))
23:01	devn	it's driving me slightly crazy
23:01	muhoo	LuminousMonkey: an atom, good call
23:01	devn	it looks ugly as sin
23:01	devn	LuminousMonkey: yeah, that's cool. i like that.
23:02	devn	i just "liked this" on github
23:02	LuminousMonkey	Wish I could claim credit, but I just found it somewhere.
23:02	muhoo	seriously, github is facebook? aieee.
23:02	devn	LuminousMonkey: that's how good code moves about
23:02	brehaut	LuminousMonkey: why not just varquote and not worry about restarting?
23:02	lancepantz	devn: that's old school perl style
23:03	lancepantz	never did it with lisp
23:03	devn	lancepantz: the newline stuff and the spaces around it?
23:03	lancepantz	the spaces
23:03	devn	it's ruby parlance in some cases as well
23:03	lancepantz	i used to do it with ruby until ninjudd kept yelling at me
23:03	devn	but...well, perl
23:04	devn	lol. i feel like a nazi, but i think a lot of my pull requests have been really nice versions of: "this is what people expect in your library"
23:04	devn	camelCase => camel-case, no more \n})))), and no more [ [1 2] [3 4] ]
23:04	LuminousMonkey	brehaut: I'll have to just profess ignorance. Still new to Clojure, et al.
23:04	devn	also, this craziness with lining up things so they're readable. i think it makes more trouble than it's worth
23:04	devn	you find these definitions that are like:
23:05	brehaut	LuminousMonkey: right. thats an entirely valid reason :)
23:05	devn	{:foo [bar]
23:05	LuminousMonkey	That's horrible.
23:05	muhoo	i saw that, and thought it was someone's editor trying to be cute
23:05	devn	GOTTA LINE EM UP! GOTTA CATCH EM ALL!
23:05	mefesto	lol
23:05	muhoo	OCD is a terrible disease
23:06	lancepantz	oh dude, the arguments we have in the office about that
23:06	devn	i go to edit it and i rename something. the name is longer than the longest name in their map
23:06	devn	so i spend 10 minutes realigning their code
23:06	devn	its like wtf
23:06	lancepantz	that's something ninjudd is religous about doing
23:06	lancepantz	but it annoys the shit out of me and amalloy
23:06	devn	i cant stand it
23:06	devn	i want to program, not align code
23:06	lancepantz	what's bad about it is that you end up editing lines you didn't really touch on commits
23:06	devn	lancepantz: exactly
23:07	mbriggs	m-x align-regexp :)
23:07	lancepantz	mbriggs: doesn't work in lisp
23:07	devn	mbriggs: i use that if i know the author is hardcore about alignment
23:07	lancepantz	you don't have an '=' to align on
23:07	mbriggs	true
23:07	devn	but in general i just make it messy by refusing to align
23:07	emezeske	More to the point, you end up un-aligning code without realizing it when you do a regex search+replace
23:08	devn	lancepantz: you can dedent the whole thing and then align on \s* or something
23:08	brehaut	LuminousMonkey: replace (wrap-stacktrace routes/app-routes) with (wrap-stacktrace #'routes/app-routes) and i think it should be good
23:08	devn	lancepantz: but either way, yes, it's ridiculous in my opinion
23:08	mbriggs	imo you should align things together that are the same things. all the values of your bindings aren't really related
23:08	devn	it's just crazy OCD
23:09	lancepantz	right
23:09	devn	if you need to align things to make it clear, i think you are probably failing to extract some stuff
23:09	muhoo	my vote for best homepage layout has to go to: http://flatland.org/ though
23:09	devn	i see this in case and cond statements
23:09	devn	people align these (fn [])s
23:09	devn	and it's like: dude, just make a new fn, name it
23:09	lancepantz	muhoo: what?
23:10	lancepantz	muhoo: thanks, but it's specifically an example of what we're bitching about!
23:10	LuminousMonkey	brehaut: What's the difference?
23:10	devn	lol lancepantz
23:10	brehaut	LuminousMonkey: that #' is a varquote; its equivalent to going (var routes/app-routes)
23:10	devn	"must...make all...strings..align"
23:11	devn	mefesto: i usually do it, and then i undo it
23:11	devn	because it's a pain in the ass
23:11	brehaut	LuminousMonkey: instead of indirecting though the var immediately, it holds that var and later indirects through it each time the handler is called
23:11	devn	mefesto: i add something and it's like "great, now time to realign the entire cond"
23:11	mefesto	devn: i tend to put the expr under the test
23:11	LuminousMonkey	Oh?! Hey, thanks!
23:11	brehaut	LuminousMonkey: it results in your jetty picking up the redef'd handler automatically, rather than you needing to manually restart the jetty
23:11	muhoo	what do you put in the commit comment for that change though?
23:11	LuminousMonkey	That is useful.
23:11	devn	muhoo: me?
23:12	LuminousMonkey	brehaut: I was too lazy to figure out how to avoid doing that.
23:12	brehaut	LuminousMonkey: yes :) it makes a world of difference for quickly developping a site with ring
23:12	devn	muhoo: i put "grumble grumble"
23:12	brehaut	LuminousMonkey: i didnt figure it out either; someone showed me
23:13	devn	lancepantz: so you mean to tell me ninjudd is all hardcore about [ 1 2 3 ], but aligns all of his code?
23:14	devn	lancepantz: that's OCD^2 ;)
23:14	mefesto	devn: this is what my ocd makes me do https://gist.github.com/2495393
23:14	brehaut	no problem
23:14	devn	mefesto: why not inline it?
23:15	brehaut	whoops. wrong window
23:15	mefesto	devn: i wish i could rationally explain it :)
23:15	wkmanire	Howdy folks.
23:15	muhoo	i have to admit i wrote this and jackhammer that key combination obsessively: https://refheap.com/paste/2365
23:15	mefesto	devn: it much of a problem with that example but when the tests are more staggard it triggers my ocd
23:15	devn	mefesto: that's how i feel about that: https://gist.github.com/2495395
23:16	devn	mefesto: or if you're committed to newlines... https://gist.github.com/2495395
23:17	devn	err mefesto: https://gist.github.com/2495395/1bcb45004dc0f48748c91d227cd4091c3c61db9f
23:17	devn	now im revealing my OCD
23:17	mefesto	devn: by staggard i mean something like this https://gist.github.com/2495393
23:17	devn	"you have OCD! you don't do it my way!"
23:17	mefesto	lmao
23:18	devn	mefesto: i think a 1 space or two space indent is appropriate there, and personally i really dislike the comments.
23:18	devn	mefesto: again, i think that's OCD, but i just find it to be noisy as hell. we have docstrings and indentation before we require comments
23:19	mefesto	devn: my ocd could handle a 2 space indent
23:19	devn	mefesto: err s/that's/im/
23:19	devn	i meant to say i think "that's my OCD"
23:19	devn	i really rely on indentation to aid in readability
23:20	mefesto	i think the 2 space indent keeps the beast happy enough that i can lose the comments too. thanks :)
23:20	devn	mefesto: one thing i am always struggling with aesthetically in cond is inlining :else (do-other)
23:20	devn	or :else\n(do-other_
23:21	mefesto	devn: i know the feeling!
23:21	devn	(do-other)*
23:21	wkmanire	I'm having a newb moment.
23:21	devn	wkmanire: im always having one of those ;)
23:22	wkmanire	Unable to resolve symbol doc in this context...
23:22	wkmanire	:/ Isn't it in clojure.core?
23:22	mefesto	wkmanire: (use 'clojure.repl) ?
23:22	devn	wkmanire: mefesto has it
23:23	wkmanire	Oh.
23:23	devn	wkmanire: i don't know exactly what prompted this and i personally disagree with it
23:23	wkmanire	Thanks.
23:23	wkmanire	Well, to put it very ignorantly, it seems to me that by starting my REPL I've done everything I need to do for doc to be available.
23:23	devn	wkmanire: but as of 1.3 or thereabouts doc was no longer there
23:24	mefesto	wkmanire: i agree ... if im in a repl i want clojure.repl :)
23:24	devn	wkmanire: i think rich's keynote at the last conj was fitting: we need different types of builds
23:24	devn	id like to see a developer build/env, and a production build/env
23:24	wkmanire	That seems appropriate to me.
23:24	mefesto	im probably overreaching but i'd like clojure.pprint as well
23:25	devn	mefesto: i dont think i disagree with that
23:25	devn	it doesnt WARN in core, so please gimme it
23:26	devn	another thing i think about is: I want to search for functions that might be in clojure.walk, but that i can find via other avenues
23:27	mefesto	which reminds me. lately in my projects i've been using lein's :repl-init myapp.repl which has all those goodies plus helper functions all loaded in it. then when i connect to the repl i switch to that ns.
23:27	devn	I want to: (apropos "macroexpand" :std-lib) and see #'clojure.walk/macroexpand-all
23:27	mefesto	is that the wrong way to use :repl-init ?
23:28	muhoo	one of these days, i'm going to write my own ns macro that automatically pulls in clojure.repl, clojure.pprint, and my own library of trying-to-make-lein-into-ipython utils, whenever i change ns's in the repl
23:28	devn	mefesto: im not a user of it, so i cant speak to that.
23:28	devn	muhoo: are you familiar with "pry"
23:28	muhoo	no, what's that?
23:28	devn	http://pry.github.com/
23:29	devn	this is a ruby thing, but the idea of it is something ive wanted to build in clojure for awhile now
23:29	devn	I want to (cd String)
23:29	devn	(ls)
23:29	muhoo	neat
23:30	muhoo	i really should just try slime. probably everything i want is in there already
23:30	devn	muhoo: meh. it's a PITA to configure if you want bells and whitles
23:30	devn	whistles*
23:30	hugod	felideon: what is proving difficult?
23:30	felideon	ipython sucks?
23:30	felideon	not that i've used it often
23:30	wkmanire	Would someone be able to recommend an in-depth article on namespaces.
23:31	devn	wkmanire: i have the perfect article
23:31	wkmanire	I am absolutely confused by them.
23:31	devn	wkmanire: http://blog.8thlight.com/colin-jones/2010/12/05/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns.html
23:31	muhoo	devn: well of course, it's emacs. it's taken me 8 years to set up emacs, and i'm about halfway done
23:31	wkmanire	devn: Thank you!
23:31	felideon	hugod: getting a repl running
23:31	mbriggs	devn: what kind of bells and whistles are there? other then sending stuff to it and whatnot, the only whistle I have is ac-slime :)
23:32	hugod	felideon: you trying with jack-in, or a manually installed slime?
23:32	devn	mbriggs: i have syntax highlighting, paredit, and fuzzy completion in the slime repl
23:32	mbriggs	ooo
23:32	devn	i do full editing in the slime repl quite a bit
23:33	mbriggs	i remember reading somewhere syntax highlighting in the repl made stuff run real slow
23:33	felideon	hugod: i installed slime through marmalade
23:33	felideon	and tried jacking in
23:33	mbriggs	muhoo: i just did a du -h on my .emacs.d and got 121M .emacs.d
23:34	mbriggs	felideon: install clojure-mode
23:34	devn	mbriggs: here's the config: it's heavy and may not work for you... https://gist.github.com/2495437
23:34	devn	mbriggs: it can make thing super slow
23:34	muhoo	heh. i just looked at the git history on my .emacs first commit: Mon Feb 9 22:08:51 2004 +0000
23:34	hugod	felideon: for jack-in, you shouldn't have slime installed
23:34	devn	mbriggs: so i (set! print-length)
23:35	felideon	hugod: the readme page is pretty hard to follow then
23:35	devn	err (set! print-length 10) and (set! print-level 3)
23:35	felideon	hugod: under the Install headline, those are all OR options?
23:36	mefesto	from reading the mailing list i think there is a different between property access and function access in clojurescript. is there a doc on this plus other things like js/* somewhere?
23:36	mbriggs	devn: you don't use rainbow parens?
23:36	muhoo	is there a way to jack-in to an already running lein repl, without starting a new one?
23:36	devn	muhoo: nah
23:36	devn	that looks like clown puke
23:36	mbriggs	devn: and thanks, i love finding new emacs stuff :)
23:36	hugod	felideon: I see how it could be confusing
23:37	felideon	hugod: ok so i have lein ritz running
23:37	felideon	do i need to slime-connect to that?
23:37	devn	muhoo: i meant yes
23:37	devn	mbriggs: that "nah" was directed at you
23:37	devn	muhoo: slime-connect is what you want
23:37	hugod	felideon: yes
23:38	muhoo	lol, clown puke
23:38	devn	muhoo: "lein swank" assuming you have the lein-swank lein plugin installed
23:38	muhoo	devn: thanks
23:38	mbriggs	devn: haha
23:38	devn	then M-x slime-connect, and accept the defaults
23:39	mbriggs	devn: i use it, but all the faces are customized to stuff that is a bit less intense
23:39	emezeske	Anyone have a recommendation for a clojure time library for a webapp? I'm looking at clj-time right now, it looks good.
23:39	devn	emezeske: is that a joda-time thingamajig?
23:39	devn	i think it is right?
23:39	emezeske	devn: Yeah
23:39	brehaut	technomancy: relevant to your interests http://vimeo.com/40980282
23:40	devn	emezeske: yeah ive used that in the past. it was good.
23:40	amalloy	mbriggs: i don't like rainbow-parens, mild colors or no, because it encourages manual matching up of parens
23:40	emezeske	devn: Thanks!
23:40	mbriggs	amalloy: you mean as opposed to just relying on paredit?
23:40	amalloy	yes
23:40	devn	mbriggs: just paren matching is good enough
23:41	devn	paredit is icing
23:41	devn	it's nice, but it doesn't exactly make you turn into a turnip or anything -- just need to find the rhythm of it and you're fine
23:42	felideon	devn: well, I didnt really appreciate paredit until i did manual paren matching for a while and tried it again
23:43	mbriggs	i use something called mic-paren as well, it matches the parens right before the point as well in a different colour
23:43	mbriggs	actually way more helpful then it sounds
23:44	devn	felideon: it's nice, but until it's second nature it's a weird, weird world
23:44	felideon	devn: paredit?
23:44	devn	felideon: so when im showing someone clojure for the first time i dont install emacs and paredit and all manner of craziness
23:44	devn	because 90% of them dont use emacs by default
23:44	felideon	right
23:44	devn	i use that stuff personally and i agree with you
23:44	devn	but it's a lot to take in
23:45	felideon	i know well seasoned lispers who use IDEs rather than emacs
23:46	felideon	and there is no paredit there, and are mad confused when one uses paredit
23:46	LuminousMonkey	I switched to Emacs purely because of Clojure.
23:46	LuminousMonkey	Paredit took some getting used to.
23:47	mbriggs	i was using vim and i switched because of lisp in a general way
23:47	mbriggs	but i use evil mode
23:47	felideon	require: Symbol's value as variable is void: slime-ritz
23:47	felideon	now slime-connect doesnt work
23:48	felideon	you would think setting up a clojure environment in emacs is much more straightforward than Common Lisp
23:49	devn	honestly i have to say that the amount of discussion ive seen in this channel at editors is like...whoa
23:49	devn	just write the damn code in notepad
23:49	hugod	felideon: you could try a M-: (require 'slime-ritz)
23:49	devn	s/at/about
23:50	felideon	devn: hell no.
23:50	muhoo	iirc, rhickey was married to lispworks IDE for a long while, before switching to emacs after clojure was released
23:50	mbriggs	devn: i love obsessing about editors :) its like, the one type of code i write that is useful to ME as opposed to other people
23:50	devn	lol. i just think it's so superficial'
23:50	LuminousMonkey	I don't think it is.
23:50	felideon	and copy&paste into terminal repl? nothx
23:51	devn	felideon: the code is more important than its indentation
23:51	felideon	I disagree.
23:51	LuminousMonkey	It's pretty much your interface into programming, you need it to be as comfortable as possible.
23:51	felideon	and it's more than indentation.
23:51	hugod	felideon: the latest slime-ritz is available in the melpa package repo at http://melpa.milkbox.net/packages/
23:51	devn	i tickled a nerve!
23:51	devn	im playing devil's advocate on this for a reason
23:51	felideon	well I'm a real lisper, what can I say.
23:51	felideon	bahaha
23:51	LuminousMonkey	That's why Light Table stirred up all that interest. :)
23:52	devn	ive seen people who are way more efficient programmers than me
23:52	devn	and they use crude environments with no safety nets
23:52	felideon	hugod: i think my inexperience with melpa and package.el is adding to the confusion
23:52	devn	and they make me look like a 10 year old
23:52	felideon	ah yes, the masochists.
23:52	felideon	i am not so smart, i need my safety nets. :P
23:52	devn	felideon: that cuts both ways
23:53	devn	do you know how long i spent setting up my fucking editor?
23:53	LuminousMonkey	Yeah, I'm nowhere near that good.
23:53	devn	let's not get into masochism
23:53	mbriggs	haha
23:53	devn	there is a balance
23:53	LuminousMonkey	Hey, at least you're not putting a window into the side of your computer with neons.
23:53	devn	being OCD about your editor is not balanced
23:53	LuminousMonkey	You're not doing that right?? :)
23:53	devn	nor is not caring about any niceties
23:53	felideon	devn: true. i spent 2 hours figuing out why my emacs background was off than the screenshot of the theme i'm using
23:53	felideon	(damn you sRGB bug! shakes fist)
23:54	devn	felideon: i wish i knew how much time ive spent in emacs and how much time ive lost as a result of: "OMG GOTTA GET MY TERMINAL TO WORK WITH ESHELL BETTER"
23:54	devn	it's just a distraction most of the time for me personally
23:54	LuminousMonkey	I'm sure there was a Steve Yegge rant about something similar to this...
23:54	devn	im glad i spent the time, because im done messing with it now
23:55	mbriggs	devn: I screw around with that stuff either when i'm fried from work and don't feel like hacking on real code, or sitting next to my wife, "watching" so you think you can dance
23:55	devn	but i think it truly was a waste
23:55	devn	mbriggs: lol
23:55	devn	the "so you think you can dance" reference just sealed this conversation
23:55	mbriggs	haha
23:55	felideon	lol
23:55	mefesto	lol
23:55	devn	you need a signet ring or something
23:55	devn	that's how epic that is
23:56	felideon	hugod: thanks for helping.
23:56	devn	"So You Think You Can Dance" stamped in wax
23:56	felideon	are you supposed to add elpa directories to load-path?
23:57	devn	felideon: stop it!
23:57	devn	;)
23:57	felideon	devn: :(
23:57	devn	felideon: im kidding, i just need to look at my config and ill tell you what i do
23:57	hugod	felideon: (add-to-list 'package-archives '("melpa" . "http://melpa.milkbox.net/packages/") t)
23:57	devn	felideon: i dont add them to the load path
23:58	devn	felideon: if you're on emacs 24 i think they're already added to the load-path
23:58	felideon	oh ok.
23:58	felideon	hugod: ok so i have the marmalade-repo.org/packages
23:58	devn	felideon: yeah, thats all ive added as well
23:59	felideon	hugod: adding melpa.milkbox.net gives me bleeding?
23:59	hugod	felideon: yes
23:59	devn	milkbox.net
23:59	devn	that's a great domain
23:59	felideon	now requiring clojure-mode fails, if i don't add the elpa sub-dir to load path