#clojure – 2012-04-22

2012-04-22

00:00	kovasb	regarding the syntax, I was looking at examples in clojurescript core; deftype and extend-type treat the arity grouping differently
00:01	mmarczyk	hm, true
00:01	mmarczyk	possibly worthwhile to unify syntax, or have both handle both options
00:02	kovasb	yeah, I just assumed the syntax was the same
00:02	kovasb	since everything else looked the same on first glace
00:02	kovasb	(doesn't make a whole lotta sense for it to be different)
00:02	mmarczyk	sure
00:02	kovasb	lemme try it on my actual code now..
00:05	kovasb	no errors! thanks for the help
00:05	lynaghk	mmarczyk: thanks for all of your work on the cljs internals
00:06	lynaghk	I'm really stoked about all of these performance improvements = )
00:06	mmarczyk	lynaghk: not at all, it's really a fantastic experience
00:06	amalloy	i think it's different for sorta implementation reasons. deftype prefers to inline method bodies implementing the backing interface, so each method body is separate; extend-type is shoving functions into a map, so it wants one function with N bodies
00:07	mmarczyk	amalloy: ah, good point
00:07	lynaghk	mmarczyk: the crucial ingredient for excellent work.
00:07	amalloy	it's definitely possible to make them support the same syntax, of course, and still probably a good idea
00:07	kovasb	amalloy: thats interesting. The syntax is still inconsistent with defn tho
00:08	kovasb	i would prefer to be able to write defn in separate cases like that
00:08	kovasb	but without that, better for deftype to support a superset
00:09	kovasb	that includes the defn style
00:16	lynaghk	Is there a nice way I can redefine the print function for an atom? (Subclassing and overriding print, basically). The best I can think of is to either use deftype and copy the implementation of atom, or use reify to proxy to an internal atom and just forward the methods. Both feel gross.
00:20	danlarkin	why do you think you need to do that?
00:22	lynaghk	I'm using atoms to represent state machines, and it'd be nice if they printed to the console just showing the current state rather than a huge nested map structure filled with anonymous fns.
00:22	danlarkin	write a format-machine function :)
00:23	lynaghk	danlarkin: yeah, but that won't make lookin' at them any nicer on the console
00:24	lynaghk	And I'm developing the library at the moment = )
00:24	kovasb	lynaghk: is this cljs or clj?
00:24	danlarkin	can't you call format-machine from the console?
00:24	danlarkin	I don't see why that's any harder than derefing the atom
00:24	lynaghk	danlarkin: yeah, but it's not automatic! =P
00:24	kovasb	danlarkin: not if u want to see it embedded in other structures
00:25	lynaghk	kovasb: I'm writing it out in Clojure, but I'm using CLJX so the library will be for both platforms.
00:25	kovasb	lynaghk: in cljs at least, printing is defined in terms of protocols
00:25	lynaghk	kovasb: the motivating use case is managing rich apps built in ClojureScript.
00:25	kovasb	lynaghk: which i believe means you cannot override the implementation for existing types
00:26	kovasb	lynaghk: but makes it easy to implement for your own type
00:26	lynaghk	kovasb: yeah, I was wondering if there was any clever way to do effectively that without defining a new type and all of the associated implementation
00:26	kovasb	lynaghk: though, there seem to be a variety of print functions, not sure if there is a way to intercept one of them
00:26	lynaghk	(that = override print method implementation)
00:26	danlarkin	please do not implement your own atom just to override .toString
00:27	danlarkin	that is so 100% crazy
00:27	lynaghk	danlarkin: I know, that's why I wanted to ping the IRC first = )
00:27	mmarczyk	lynaghk: redefine print-method for atom to check the atom's metadata for a key indicating that it's a state machine?
00:27	kovasb	if you look at the atom definition in cljs, it is totally trivial
00:27	lynaghk	mmarczyk: yeah, I thought about that too. I think it might be the best option here
00:28	lynaghk	kovasb: yep, I was surprised when I first read it, but after some thought there's not really anything else to atoms.
00:29	kovasb	what kind of state are you keeping in the atoms?
00:31	lynaghk	kovasb: it's similar to ibdknox's Waltz library: the atom has a map of states, events, and a set describing the current states the machine is in
00:31	lynaghk	(it can be in more than one state at the same time)
00:31	kovasb	lynaghk: cool. how does that relate to helping with webapps?
00:32	lynaghk	mmarczyk: yeah, the metadata approach works nicely, thanks.
00:32	lynaghk	kovasb: it's a good structure to have, rather than spreading the logic around in a handful of callbacks
00:32	lynaghk	(add-watcher functions)
00:32	mmarczyk	lynaghk: great
00:33	kovasb	lynaghk: you mean, what you do on callback depends on the state?
00:34	lynaghk	kovasb: if you're not careful about organization you'll end up with the logic splattered around different places
00:34	lynaghk	e.g., in a callback that is executed when a DB call from the server returns, you check some UI widgets to make sure that the data is still needed
00:34	kovasb	lynaghk: believe me, i know :) just curious what it would look like
00:35	lynaghk	kovasb: ah, right. Know and love =P
00:35	kovasb	lynaghk: sounds interesting.
00:35	kovasb	lynaghk: my js apps definitely suffer from that. the cljs ones slightly better, but still not great
00:36	lynaghk	kovasb: the reason I'm writing a new lib instead of just using Chris's Waltz is because I need more emphasis on actual mutable state---associating atoms with states in the state machine
00:36	kovasb	right
00:36	lynaghk	kovasb: the motivating use case for that is because I need to be able to serialize the entire application state (e.g., the current drop down selections and such)
00:37	kovasb	lynaghk: i think we are working on the same problem
00:37	lynaghk	kovasb: I'm getting a little demo up and running in the next hour (hopefully). I'll add you to the github repo and you can check it out.
00:37	kovasb	lynaghk: awesome, will definitely check it out.
00:37	lynaghk	I'd love to hear your thoughts on the design.
00:37	kovasb	lynaghk: its a hard problem :)
00:38	kovasb	lynaghk: right now I'm working on serializing document representing my cljs app, which is a webrepl
00:39	lynaghk	kovasb: no README on the github repo grr! =P
00:39	kovasb	lynaghk: haha, leon reps && leon run baby
00:39	kovasb	*lein
00:39	muhoo	is there anything special involved in building lein2 from source? isn't it just lein2 uberjar, then copy the uberjar to ~/.lein/self-installs, then change the lein2 shell script to use that SNAPSHOT version?
00:39	kovasb	not ready for public consumption to say the least..
00:40	kovasb	just refactored the whole thing today to use deftype
00:44	kovasb	lynaghk: i think i understand what its doing
00:45	kovasb	lynaghk: in terms of serialization, its that so the user can come back to the app and find it in the same state?
00:46	lynaghk	kovasb: yep. It has several views and toggles, so they need to be able to bookmark it and come back later
00:46	lynaghk	(using pushState to serialize into the URL)
00:47	kovasb	lynaghk: how do you hook up the state with the content of the widgets?
00:48	lynaghk	kovasb: need to put together a serialization protocol that people can implement for different widgets.
00:49	kovasb	lynaghk: cool. we should definitely coordinate
00:49	kovasb	lynaghk: basically, i want to make the interactive repl where people can type in their widgets, and share / come back to them later
00:50	lynaghk	Basically, any of the state machine states can be associated with ref-like things that implement IWatcher (which I'm calling "wub" to differentiate from state machine states). If the user wants to be able to serialize the state machine, the wubs will also need to implement the serialization protocol.
00:51	lynaghk	kovasb: sure, I'd be happy to chat about that. This particular thing needs to get written tomorrow and delivered Monday, but the design definitely isn't set in stone. I'd be interested to see what other people think of it and end up doing with it
00:51	kovasb	lynaghk: cool
00:52	kovasb	lynaghk: one thing that kinda stretches the metaphor of "state machine" is for example the content of a dynamic visualization.. changes over time, but the changes don't put the logic into a different state
00:52	kovasb	lynaghk: anyway will let you work for now :)
00:53	lynaghk	kovasb: yeah, that's a problem I've been thinking about w.r.t. C2 stuff
00:53	kovasb	lynaghk: I've been hitting my head super hard against the wall. have some ideas but they need reality testing.. anyway lets connect soon
00:54	lynaghk	on one hand, I think the data should be logical, and the mappings should always be one-to-one from the data to the visulization elements. But if you're going to be strict about that, it's unclear how to do things like graph layout and stuff (since the data depend on each other). Personally, I've been using separate layout fns that run after the initial data->DOM mapping, but I'm not sure if that's the best solution.
00:55	lynaghk	kovasb: sure. I'll get in touch later this week and we can skype or something
00:55	kovasb	lynaghk: sweet. will have my stuff in better shape by then too..
00:58	yoklov	Hm. I think the level generator is officially "good enough"
00:58	yoklov	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13069163/crash.png
01:00	emezeske	yoklov: Neat!
01:01	ibdknox	yoklov: lol I love you bookmark folders :p
01:02	ibdknox	your*
01:02	yoklov	hahaha, yeah, didn't think about those :p
01:04	yoklov	they at least make me feel more organized, but… maybe I should move piracy inside of saved or something.
01:05	ibdknox	haha
01:11	kovasb	ibdknox: are you gonna keep the publicity flowing by making more awesome demos? :)
01:13	amalloy	yoklov: just rename piracy to "liberation" or some other synonym
01:14	yoklov	amalloy: that is a good idea
01:26	ivan	I am curious as to why it is faster though
01:29	amalloy	i wouldn't be surprised to learn that code on the boot classpath doesn't get run through the verifier, or is verified less rigorously
01:32	ivan	"Several large caveats go with this, however. To begin with, any and all security policy set by the SecurityManager or the associated Policy implementation (see [8] for details) are completely ignored and entirely unenforced for code loaded from the bootstrap ClassLoader."
01:36	amalloy	sure, or that. i was close!
01:39	ivan	heh heh -Xbootclasspath/a:C:\stuff\clojure.jar does not work while forward slashes do work
01:45	jblomo	,(meta ^{:test true} (sorted-set 1 2 3))
01:45	clojurebot	nil
01:45	jblomo	,(meta ^{:test true} [1 2 3])
01:45	clojurebot	{:test true}
01:45	jblomo	does the reader meta macro work differently on function calls that return an object?
01:46	amalloy	it only works on object literals
01:46	jblomo	ah ok. otherwise i have to use with-meta?
01:46	amalloy	personally i recommend using with-meta always
01:46	amalloy	to avoid confusion with what's happening at runtime with what's going on at read time
02:02	amalloy	as an aside, putting reader metadata on lists is a problem for other reasons too: if you typehint a macro call, the typehint is silently discarded. see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-865 if you're interested
02:04	jblomo	amalloy: thanks, i was more trying to understand how metadata was stored for non-reader datatypes
02:04	jblomo	like sorted-set
02:04	jblomo	I am trying my hand at CLJ-248
02:04	jblomo	trying to understand if a subset should carry along the metadata of the superset
02:11	amalloy	i don't think so, but i haven't thought hard about it
02:12	amalloy	sub-sortedsets would be interesting but i can't imagine how they'd work with good performance. do you have an algorithm in mind?
02:16	jblomo	amalloy: it looks like sorted sets are backed by PersistentTreeMap, which are kept in order
02:16	jblomo	so i was hoping to use subtrees which i have a vague hope would not require making a lot of new objects
02:29	amalloy	it seems like you couldn't keep the balance properties of PTM, though
02:30	amalloy	eg, if you have a perfectly balanced tree of 15 elements, and only keep some of the inner ones, you have a tree that is very poorly balanced
02:31	amalloy	and then conjing onto that structure would be a mess, right?
03:11	bolic	I'm getting confused by namespaces and -main, help anyone? See here: http://pastie.org/3832210
03:27	muhoo	bolic: post your project.clj?
03:32	amalloy	bolic: note it's #<Namespace user>, not #<Namespace ack.doodle>
03:33	amalloy	ns is bound at compile-time, not runtime, i believe. the whole namespace gets compiled with ns bound to ack.doodle, and then lein invokes the -main function after compilation is done, so ns is set to the default binding of user
04:01	Hali_303	hi! can someone confirm that C-M-x does not work on protocol stuff in Emacs?
04:05	muhoo	is there a more current appengine/bigtable library for clojure than this one: github.com/smartrevolution/clj-gae-datastore ?
04:05	muhoo	it's old, only works with clojure 1.2, doesn't have lein support yet, etc
04:09	muhoo	nm, found it: https://github.com/gcv/appengine-magic
04:09	muhoo	appengine-magic.services.datastore
04:19	amalloy	Hali_303: works fine, though i suppose no answer can be definitive if you don't specify what you mean by "protocol stuff" and "does not work"
04:54	bolic	got disconnected.. did anyone answer my previous question? ns appears to be 'user in -main, but functions defined in the same file, and from a different namespace, can be called. What's going on? see http://pastie.org/3832210, thanks
05:06	Borkdude	Strange, I can't edit a clj in Eclipse anymore
05:06	Borkdude	When I copy/paste smth: ccw.editors.clojure.handlers$apply_paredit_command cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
05:07	talios	'lo Borkdude
05:07	Borkdude	hi talios
05:08	talios	How goes the evening?
05:08	talios	(well, evening my time anyway)
05:08	Borkdude	it's morning here
05:14	Borkdude	Has anyone got the leiningen plugin in Eclipse functioning (update dependencies)?
05:16	cirwin	(noob alert) is there a varargs version of every? (or if not how do I go about making one). I want to check a condition against every pair in two sequences.
05:31	AimHere	cirwin > Not hard to roll your own - something along the lines of: (defn everyv? [f & x] (cond (every? empty? x) true (apply f (map first x)) (recur f (map rest x)) :else false))
05:32	cirwin	AimHere: awesome
05:32	cirwin	I'm just struggling to find everything at the moment — I remember about the & now you say it :)
05:33	kab3wm	Having some "IO" issues with binary files. I'm trying to build an image cache with Redis, but just testing with copying my byte-array to file, the files are missing around 3500 bytes. See: https://gist.github.com/2462911
05:33	AimHere	cirwin > Looks right to me, but I do make lots of mistakes when I write code, so check it before you use it!
05:34	cirwin	will do, thanks again
05:37	Borkdude	Does someone know if I want to use a leiningen project in Eclipse, how I can get a REPL in Eclipse running?
05:37	Borkdude	I did a "lein deps" and then added references to the jars manually
05:38	Borkdude	(because I can't get the leiningen plugin to work)
05:41	hiredman	kab3wm: you need to close the stream or call .flush
05:42	kab3wm	hiredman: I will give that a shot. thank you.
05:52	Borkdude	Trying "lein ccw" now... NullPointerException
05:53	Borkdude	I'm giving up almost...
06:58	fliebel	$mail samaaron Any luck with PureJavaComm? Does my patch work for you?
06:58	lazybot	Message saved.
07:01	georgeMonet	hello
07:06	mercurian	hello is anyone active
07:07	mercurian	I need some help in installing Clojure with AcquaMac
07:23	bordatoue	hello
07:24	bordatoue	what a shit
07:50	angerman	Dammit clojure… gimme a fist!
07:50	angerman	(Spelling is hard)
07:52	bordatoue	hello could anyone tell me how to install clojure with Acquamac
07:53	angerman	bordatoue: you mean how to configure Aquamacs?
07:53	_KY_	What is the test for lower-case characters?
07:53	bordatoue	yes,
07:53	_KY_	Thanks in advance! =)
07:53	bordatoue	I want to work with AcquaMac and Clojure i have been following the instruction specified in http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs
07:54	bordatoue	it say in the web page to download clojure-mode.el , but there is no link
07:54	bordatoue	https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/master/README.md
07:55	angerman	bordatoue: it's this one: https://github.com/jochu/clojure-mode
07:55	angerman	err https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode
07:55	angerman	that one
07:55	bordatoue	thanks very much
07:56	bordatoue	i will try with those file
07:56	angerman	follow the instructions; (I'd recommend using Marmalade)
07:56	bordatoue	how do I install the package manager for AcquaMac ; Marmalade
07:57	bordatoue	that was the hinderence when I tried Marmalade approach
07:58	angerman	bordatoue: if aquamacs does not come with package.el; try without Marmalade
07:58	bordatoue	okay
07:58	bordatoue	is it possible to install Marmalade for acquamacs
08:00	angerman	I assume. You would need to install ELPA package.el
08:01	bordatoue	is there any instruction on how to install ELPA package.el
08:02	angerman	I guess you basically just need to install http://bit.ly/pkg-el23 (put in ~/.emacs.d/) and load it in ~/.emacs.d/init.el
08:03	bordatoue	okay thanks, I will try them
08:34	_KY_	How can I use set/union?
08:35	_KY_	The REPL can't resolve the symbol
08:36	yangsx	KY: (require '[clojure.set :as set])
08:36	_KY_	Thanks=)
08:37	yangsx	or (clojure.set/union #{1 2 3} #{2 3 4})
08:44	michaelr525	hey
08:50	_KY_	How to append 2 lists?
08:54	_KY_	Nevermind... what I need is concat
09:40	jimi_hendrix	what is the most "clojure" way of creating a Vec3 type structure? just pass around a vector with 3 elements?
09:43	AimHere	jimi_hendrix, Probably. If you can do it with a vector or a sequence, then do it that way
09:43	AimHere	Failing that, do something lispy with lambdas and macros
09:44	AimHere	If all else fails, shoehorn it into object orientation with protocols and deftypes/defrecords
09:44	AimHere	I think that's roughly the idiomatic Clojure pecking order
09:45	jimi_hendrix	first situation should work
09:48	jimi_hendrix	also, i am using slime and emacs. when i am defining functions and typing the argument list i get stuff like error in process filter: wrong argument type listp 1
09:49	jimi_hendrix	this slows down typing. what gives?
10:07	_KY_	How can I add an element to the beginning of sequence?
10:08	tmciver	_KY_: use cons
10:08	mk	,(cons 1 [2 3])
10:08	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
10:09	_KY_	But that adds to the end of list
10:09	AimHere	cons doesn't
10:09	patrikkarlin	what?
10:09	clojurebot	what is exceptions
10:09	_KY_	Or, what I need is to add to the end
10:09	mk	_KY_: the list is the second argument
10:09	AimHere	If you want to add to the end of a vector, you could use 'conj'
10:09	_KY_	Sorry I confused head with tail =)
10:10	mk	,(conj 1 [2 3])
10:10	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection>
10:10	_KY_	,(conj [2 3 5] one)
10:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: one in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:10	_KY_	,(conj [2 3 5] '1)
10:10	clojurebot	[2 3 5 1]
10:10	_KY_	Ah I see...
10:10	fliebel	conj ads to the start fro a list, tail for a vector.
10:10	mk	,(conj '(2 3) 1)
10:10	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
10:10	tmciver	_KY_: no need to quote the 1
10:10	_KY_	,(cons [2 3 5] '1)
10:10	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
10:10	_KY_	,(cons '1 [2 3 5])
10:10	clojurebot	(1 2 3 5)
10:11	AimHere	,(conj [1 2 3 4] 5 6 7 8)
10:11	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
10:11	mk	the arguments are reversed, which can cause mild annoyance
10:11	fliebel	Adding to the end of a list is inefficient. But you could use ##(concat '(1 2 3) '(4))
10:11	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4)
10:11	fliebel	or a vector, of course.
10:12	_KY_	Yes I think conj is what I need
10:12	mk	conj should not be used for adding things to the start or end of anything, though
10:12	_KY_	Why not?
10:13	mk	because the specification specifies that depending on the "concrete type", adding can occur anywhere (the start, end, middle...)
10:13	mdeboard	&''x
10:13	lazybot	⇒ (quote x)
10:13	mdeboard	&'#"\\"
10:13	lazybot	⇒ #"\\"
10:13	mdeboard	&'#{1 2 3}
10:13	lazybot	⇒ #{1 2 3}
10:13	mdeboard	&''#{1 2 3}
10:13	lazybot	⇒ (quote #{1 2 3})
10:13	mdeboard	weird
10:14	mk	_KY_: in practice, this means that conj adds to the front of lists and to the tail of vectors
10:14	AimHere	What's weird about that?
10:17	_KY_	Well, I found out I could use cons afterall
10:17	_KY_	But conj won't add to the middle right?
10:18	_KY_	Are you kidding?
10:21	mk	_KY_: I'm not. It adds into the most efficient place in the list. If we implemented special new vectors where adding into the middle was fastest, conj would add into the middle
10:22	mk	(actually, it wouldn't, because everyone uses conj, incorrectly, to add to the start of lists and the end of vectors, but that's beside the point)
10:27	_KY_	Fine... I'm not using conj anyway
10:28	mk	_KY_: :)
10:29	mk	why did clojure implement bigints in addition to bigintegers?
10:29	mmarczyk	mk: nothing incorrect about that
10:31	mmarczyk	mk: as for bigints -- that's so that you can get convenient and efficient arbitrary precision arithmetic with the >= 1.3 numerics
10:32	mmarczyk	mk: just using bigintegers would be unbearably slow with the current jvms, so the idea is to write a faster bigint class
10:32	mk	mmarczyk: it assumes that append for vectors is fastest at the end, but this need not be the case
10:32	mmarczyk	mk: as far as I remember (<- about bigints)
10:33	mk	mmarczyk: our bigint has a BigInteger field (and a few other things) in it. Are you sure?
10:33	mmarczyk	mk: strictly speaking, conj doesn't promise to insert into the "fastest" place, but rather some fixed place for each concrete collection type, which might be different for different collection types
10:34	mmarczyk	mk: although even more strictly speaking, it doesn't necessarily make sense that the insertion place is different, because it doesn't necessarily make sense to compare
10:34	mmarczyk	mk: say, vaguely sequential colls vs. associative colls
10:34	mmarczyk	mk: it also has a long field
10:35	mmarczyk	mk: the idea is to use that whenever possible and fall back to biginteger
10:35	raxelo	hi all, please help to resolve this compilation problem http://pastebin.com/N7sdD2mp
10:35	raxelo	seems like it requires seq instead of reference to the predicate
10:35	mmarczyk	mk: for now, anyway -- maybe biginteger will be completely replaced one day
10:35	mk	mmarczyk: I've heard something vague about the hash values of biginteger being off
10:37	mmarczyk	mk: ah, right, I think I remember something like that too
10:37	mmarczyk	mk: in addition to the precision issue.
10:37	mmarczyk	&(hash (BigInteger. "126463241243514"))
10:37	lazybot	⇒ -2069874442
10:37	mmarczyk	&(hash 126463241243514)
10:37	lazybot	⇒ -2070792066
10:38	mmarczyk	&(hash 126463241243514N)
10:38	lazybot	⇒ -2070792066
10:38	mmarczyk	indeed.
10:40	mmarczyk	returning to the conj issue, the idea is that you need to pick the collection types which make sense for your algorithms and know their behaviour, and in particular their behaviour w.r.t. conj et al. -- but without guarantees as to that behaviour conj would be pretty useless
10:42	raxelo	guys, I have got message "IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: dp_toolkit.layout$discovery_script_QMARK_, compiling:(layout.clj:23)
10:42	raxelo	but function discovery_script has to be evaluated before call, right ?
10:42	raxelo	http://pastebin.com/N7sdD2mp
10:43	raxelo	before applied in map-function call
10:43	mmarczyk	raxelo: (mapcat walk subdirs filter-fn)
10:44	mmarczyk	raxelo: you probably want (mapcat #(walk % filter-fn) subdirs)
10:45	mmarczyk	raxelo: oh, also note #((and (.isFile %) (filter-fn %))) -- you need to remove the outer layer of parens
10:46	mmarczyk	raxelo: otherwise you're calling the return value of (and ...) as a function
10:47	raxelo	mmarczyk: thanks a lot for the help, I have stuck at 23 line where error points me (newbie)
10:47	mmarczyk	raxelo: there's also line 20
10:47	mmarczyk	raxelo: you probably want sth like (.endsWith the-interesting-string "py")
10:48	mmarczyk	raxelo: "xml", rather, "py" is on line 15 -- same story
10:48	mmarczyk	raxelo: also remove the outer (= "py" ...) from around the new .endsWith form
10:49	mfex	raxelo, you can turn a tree directory/file structure into a seq with (tree-seq #(.isDirectory %) #(.listFiles %) (File. root)) and then filter for dir/file and apply filter-fn
10:49	raxelo	aha
10:49	raxelo	mfex: about
10:50	raxelo	mfex: about "turn tree to seq" is very cool! thanks
11:01	raxelo	thanks a lot, mfex and mmarczyk
11:28	_KY_	How come the set union of 2 lists is a joined list?
11:28	_KY_	Instead of a set containing 2 lists
11:32	tmciver	_KY_: because the doc says so: ##(doc union)
11:32	lazybot	⇒ nil
11:32	tmciver	&(use 'clojure.set)
11:32	lazybot	⇒ nil
11:32	tmciver	&(doc union)
11:32	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.set/union ([] [s1] [s1 s2] [s1 s2 & sets]) Return a set that is the union of the input sets nil
11:33	tmciver	_KY_: and it takes and returns set, not lists.
11:33	_KY_	Yes but I expect to get a set of 2 lists
11:33	_KY_	Like { [1 2 3], [4 5 6] }
11:34	tmciver	_KY_: then you'd have to create sets containing lists as input to union
11:34	tmciver	&(union #{[1 2 3]} #{[4 5 6]})
11:34	lazybot	⇒ #{[1 2 3] [4 5 6]}
11:35	tmciver	_KY_: but I think sets don't typically contain lists like that.
11:35	_KY_	Well that's exactly what I need...=)
11:37	tmciver	_KY_: keep in mind union may not combine your lists as you'd expect: ##(union #{[1 2 3]} #{[2 3 4]})
11:37	lazybot	⇒ #{[1 2 3] [2 3 4]}
11:37	tmciver	_KY_: i.e. it does not 'combine' the 2 and 3.
11:38	_KY_	That's what I expect
11:38	_KY_	They are different lists
11:53	_KY_	I want something like this to work:
11:53	_KY_	(clojure.set/union {[1 2 3 4]} {[1 2] [3 4]} )
11:53	_KY_	,(clojure.set/union {[1 2 3 4]} {[1 2] [3 4]} )
11:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms>
11:53	tmciver	_KY_: sets are prefixed with #
11:55	_KY_	,(clojure.set/union #{[1 2 3 4]} #{[1 2] [3 4]} )
11:55	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
11:55	Bronsa	,(require 'clojure.set)
11:55	clojurebot	nil
11:55	Bronsa	,(clojure.set/union #{[1 2 3 4]} #{[1 2] [3 4]})
11:55	_KY_	,(clojure.set/union #{[1 2 3 4]} #{[1 2] [3 4]} )
11:55	clojurebot	#{[3 4] [1 2] [1 2 3 4]}
11:55	clojurebot	#{[3 4] [1 2] [1 2 3 4]}
11:55	_KY_	Ahhh works...
11:55	_KY_	=)
11:58	_KY_	Another question: there is no built-in test for lowercase characters in clojure
11:58	_KY_	Maybe we can call java's library for that?
11:59	tmciver	&(Character/isLowerCase \a)
11:59	lazybot	⇒ true
12:00	tmciver	&(Character/isLowerCase \A)
12:00	lazybot	⇒ false
12:00	_KY_	Oh I see
12:00	_KY_	Thanks=)
12:00	tmciver	np
12:10	charles_r	Can someone explain to me what's going on with 'recur'?
12:11	tmciver	charles_r: maybe. got some code to refheap?
12:16	jimi_hendrix	so it seems my typing of stuff in emacs is really slow (it seems to pause to show prototypes or whatever). can i speed this up somehow?
12:23	mfex	ha jimi_hendrix' dexterity too much for emacs, story check out :)
12:24	jimi_hendrix	i am not even typing that fast!
12:26	umren	what is current state of clojure on android, can i make full native applications with clojure and have same load spead as java?
12:26	mk	umren: clojure compiles into bytecode, just like java
12:27	jimi_hendrix	umren, last i checked, the non-java jvm languages were slower on android because the dalvik jvm is optimized for java's style. this could have changed though
12:27	umren	this is what i fear
12:28	mk	umren: this is almost never a problem unless you make a prototype and find that it dies due to performance
12:28	jimi_hendrix	umren, it doesnt matter much though, unless you are making a game or a similarly resource intensive app
12:28	umren	yep, i would like to make a game
12:29	hcumberdale	Hi ;)
12:29	mk	umren: most of clojure itself is written in java - it uses .java files and classes
12:29	mk	hcumberdale: hey and welcome :)
12:29	umren	yes, this is what theory is about
12:30	mk	umren: the speed might be different in expected areas; for example, clojure uses fast immutable lists, which are slower than mutable lists, but much more bug-free
12:30	jimi_hendrix	but has anyone experienced a similar issue with emacs and slime?
12:32	umren	mk: http://goo.gl/BXVQ2
12:33	umren	i don't think he lie
12:33	mk	umren: you can just post the full url :)
12:33	umren	nah, it's too big
12:35	mk	http://www.deepbluelambda.org/programming/clojure/creating-android-applications-with-clojure
12:35	sattvik	umren: There is still a bit of a load time issue with Clojure, but appplying a few tricks can make things practical.
12:36	sattvik	For example, Clojure 1.4's metadata elision can reduce load time slightly and make a big difference in heap use.
12:36	sattvik	On a newer phone, the load time is down to 2-3 seconds.
12:37	mk	umren: load time is one of the things that you would give up in order to use a still-new higher-level language like clojure
12:37	sattvik	The current best practice is to use a Java activity to throw up a splash screen while Clojure bootstraps itself.
12:38	sattvik	However, once you experience REPL-driven Android development, everything else just seems backwards.
12:39	mk	umren: I believe that sattvik is the author of that post you linked
12:39	sattvik	Things are generally getting better, though.
12:39	sattvik	Yes, I am.
12:40	umren	well, i like android, but i don't like java, clojure seems good and easy
12:40	zakwilson_	I was just wondering about the current suitability of Clojure for Android.
12:42	mk	umren: which language are you coming from?
12:43	umren	mk: php/javascript
12:43	zakwilson	It seems like a serious misfeature that you can't run code on Android that generates new classes.
12:44	sattvik	zakwilson: It's something that they have left open for future development. For now, there are workarounds.
12:44	zakwilson	I figured it was security/verifiability related.
12:45	mk	umren: if you've used jquery, clojure leans in that direction
12:45	sattvik	No, you can dynamically load new classes. It's supported by the platform, it's just a little on the slow side.
12:46	zakwilson	It seems like Android might work better if they had chosen something lighter than Java as the fundamental basis for their platform. On the other hand, it might not have gotten the popularity.
12:47	umren	they targeted java devs, which are really big community, and dalvik was designed with java in mind
12:54	mk	umren: this is similar to what clojure has done
13:29	gozala	Hi folks
13:29	Mimisbrunnr	hello
13:29	gozala	I'm trying to find some examples how to write tests to cljs lib
13:29	gozala	anyone has any good pointers ?
13:30	RickInGA	lein-cljsbuild has a sample project with tests built in, that might be a good place to look
13:30	gozala	RickInGA: ahh stupid me, thanks!
13:31	RickInGA	gozala: it has 2 sample projects, simple and advanced. the tests are in the advanced. they use phantom.js to run the tests
13:33	gozala	RickInGA: could you also give a link to your tests ?
13:33	gozala	I'd like to take a look
13:34	RickInGA	I have not done any tests in cljs, just I am still new to cljs, but the samples I was talking about are at: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/tree/master/example-projects/advanced
13:35	gozala	RickInGA: yeah I was looking there
13:35	gozala	I'm still not sure how to write async tests though
13:35	gozala	that don't finish execution in the same turn of event loop
13:43	_KY_	What's the difference between {} and []?
13:43	_KY_	What's the difference between {} and [] and #{}?
13:43	dnolen	yoklov: was the mem issue resolved for you?
13:44	yoklov	dnolen: yes, it was!
13:44	dnolen	_KY_: hashmap, vector, and set - different data structures.
13:44	dnolen	yoklov: excellent!
13:44	mk	_KY_: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
13:44	_KY_	I see....
13:44	_KY_	What memory issue?
13:44	yoklov	dnolen: yes, its been running smoothly all day and was doing great last night too
13:44	jimi_hendrix	what is the clojure way of doing a left fold?
13:44	mk	_KY_: a data structure is a way to represent a value
13:44	RickInGA	dnolen: did you see gozala's questions about testing in cljs?
13:44	dnolen	yoklov: that's great to hear. you were right all along :)
13:45	dnolen	RickInGA: I did, but I haven't done much testing outside the CLJS compiler.
13:45	_KY_	I have a memory problem running NetBeans with Enclojure =(
13:50	gfredericks	I'm curious about the reasoning behind CLJS-113
13:53	dnolen	gfredericks: then Clojure data can be a JSON superset
13:53	gfredericks	I did not expect that as a goal
13:54	gfredericks	dnolen: numerics is still undealt with, right? I'm about to create a JIRA issue. Seems I finally have some free time.
13:56	dnolen	gfredericks: a JIRA issue for what?
13:56	gfredericks	building numeric types
13:56	dnolen	gfredericks: do you mean Ratios, BigInts stuff like that?
13:57	gfredericks	I talked to Stu H. and I _think_ that's how he recommended to go about it but now my memory seems hazy
13:57	gfredericks	yes that sort
13:58	dnolen	gfredericks: it's still not clear to me how that could work without slowing down arithmetic elsewhere.
13:58	gfredericks	dnolen: I fiddled around with the double dispatch after talking to you about it a month ago and ended up with a question, but will have to collect my thoughts before I remember what it was
13:58	gfredericks	dnolen: right, I imagine it would either be a separate ns with separate arithmetic protocols, or a compiler option
13:58	gfredericks	I didn't expect full integration
14:00	dnolen	gfredericks: before a JIRA ticket, something like that probably needs a plan.
14:00	jonasen	dnolen: Has anyone used the clojurescript analyzer for code walking? I'm finding several bugs in the :children vectors. Maybe I'm missing something.
14:01	dnolen	jonasen: I think ibdknox has, I saw your ticket but I haven't looked closely.
14:02	jonasen	dnolen: there are more I think.
14:02	_KY_	How can I read a seq 3 elements at a time, like [x y z]?
14:02	jonasen	:children is missing for :fn
14:02	jonasen	and :dot puts the environment in there.
14:04	josteink	Im reading a file (via java.io readers) and I want to itereate over each line, and for each line evaluate a specific condition
14:04	josteink	if that condition is true, I want to do something in to "yield return" in C#
14:04	josteink	basically, build up a iterable collection of some sort to process later
14:04	dnolen	jonasen: :children for fn is inside :methods
14:04	josteink	what would be the idiomatic/clean way of doing that?
14:07	gfredericks	dnolen: is there a more appropriate place for developing a plan?
14:07	dnolen	gfredericks: Confluence
14:07	samaaron	is there a safe way of accessing a protected field on an arbitrary java object where no getFoo() method exists
14:08	gfredericks	I bet that's what stu said and I just revised history
14:08	jonasen	dnolen: yes, but shouldn't it be exposed to :fn?
14:08	dnolen	jonasen: I'm wary to mess w/ the analyzer - it would probably best to see a detailed description of what exactly could be made more uniform.
14:09	RickInGA	samaaron can you inherit from the class? protected is available to children, I believe
14:09	jonasen	dnolen: np. I know how to work around it :)
14:10	samaaron	RickInGA: so I have a proxy object - I'm not sure how you can inherit in this case. Perhaps there's a way of writing a proxy fn which can poke directly in?
14:10	jonasen	but I might open tickets as I find (what I think is) bugs.
14:10	dnolen	jonasen: I understand that uniformity is beneficial for a code walker - but if we're going to work on the analyzer it would be best to get one ticket.
14:11	jonasen	dnolen: ok
14:12	dnolen	jonasen: so say keep your notes and create an improve analyzer confluence page so others can follow along.
14:12	RickInGA	I need to stop answering questions… followups are almost always over my head :)
14:13	samaaron	I'm totally out of my depth too
14:14	RickInGA	samaaron: checking chapter 9 of Clojure Programming right now… got to proxys….
14:14	gfredericks	does confluence require special privileges to add a new page?
14:14	RickInGA	it says that proxy can extend an existign class...
14:15	samaaron	yep, so I'm overriding class fns with my proxy
14:15	samaaron	I can refer back to original class methods with proxy-super
14:15	dnolen	gfredericks: it might if it does ask for privilges on clojure-dev
14:15	samaaron	i wonder how you can refer to a specific field
14:16	gfredericks	dnolen: okay; I simply can't figure out how to add one, so that seems a reasonable explanation
14:16	dnolen	gfredericks: yes if you have permissions you should be able create pages.
14:17	gfredericks	well I just created my account 10 minutes ago so there's no reason for me to have permissions if they aren't given by default
14:19	gfredericks	first to apply for clojure dev membership
14:19	RickInGA	samaaron: found this on clojure.org/java_interop Method fns are closures and can capture the environment in which proxy is called. Each method fn takes an additional implicit first arg, which is bound to this. Note that while method fns can be provided to override protected methods, they have no other access to protected members, nor to super, as these capabilities cannot be proxied.
14:20	samaaron	RickInGA: yeah I just read this
14:21	samaaron	doesn't look hopeful i guess
14:21	jimi_hendrix	what is the clojure version of a left fold? i need to retain information from the previous item in the iteration when examining the next one
14:21	jonasen	https://refheap.com/paste/2290
14:22	jonasen	dnolen: ^ my workaround. Which I think does the right thing
14:22	TimMc	jimi_hendrix: reduce
14:25	jimi_hendrix	TimMc, thanks
14:48	jayunit100	good mornin
14:52	jayunit100	whats the best way to "extend" a namespace in a new file, while retaining access to private methods etc ...?
14:55	Raynes	Not trying to do that at all is usually the best option.
14:56	gfredericks	I don't know if there's any idiomatic way to do it, due to what raynes said, but you can use (in-ns ...) at the top level
14:56	gfredericks	but please only do this if you're trying to upset Raynes
14:56	Raynes	Indeed.
14:57	tmciver	I just tried to use lein's checkouts feature and it looks like the external project's lib directory is not on the classpath by default. Seems like it should be. Any way around this?
14:58	gfredericks	tmciver: shouldn't you have all its deps in your lib directory?
14:58	gfredericks	or are you mucking with its deps as well...
14:59	gfredericks	(i.e., changing the project's project.clj)
14:59	dnolen	mmarczyk: you around?
15:00	tmciver	gfredericks: I shouldn't have to list an external project's deps in my own project.clj, right?
15:00	jayunit100	oh ok.
15:00	jayunit100	yup (in-ns) i guess.... is the way to (not) go :)
15:00	gfredericks	tmciver: no, the indirect dependencies normally end up in your lib directory. using checkouts shouldn't change that, at least if you don't change the external project's dependencies
15:00	jayunit100	thanks anyways tho :)
15:01	gfredericks	jayunit100: that might complicate getting those files loaded, which would be part of why people don't do that
15:02	dnolen	k CLJS compiler now warns on fn invokes w/ incorrect # of args
15:03	angerman	I have a bunch of image urls. how could I simply display? Should I go with seesaw or clarity?
15:03	tmciver	I expected the transitive dependencies to be made available to the main project either by including the external project's lib dir on the classpath or by lein obtaining the needed deps by reading the ext project's project file.
15:04	tmciver	It doesn't look like either happens which I guess means I must list those deps in the main project's project file...yuk!
15:06	tmciver	Well, there's the :checkout-deps-shares that I could use. I still feel that the external project's lib dir should be put on the classpath by default.
15:11	gfredericks	tmciver: so...you are changing the dependencies then?
15:13	mmarczyk	dnolen: hi
15:13	tmciver	gfredericks: not at all. I have a project that depends on another project that I've simlinked to from the checkouts dir.
15:14	gfredericks	tmciver: so it sounds like you're claiming that the checkouts feature doesn't work as advertised; I've never had to include transitive deps, just like I don't have to when not using checkouts
15:15	tmciver	gfredericks: but 'lein classpath' does not show the external project's lib dir. Shouldn't it?
15:15	tmciver	gfredericks: I shouldn't have to list transitive deps in the main project's project file.
15:16	tmciver	gfredericks: I'm probably missing something.
15:18	gfredericks	tmciver: no I don't believe it should have the other lib directory. `leid deps` should put all transitive deps into your lib directory just like it normally does. Is it not?
15:18	gfredericks	s/leid/lein/
15:19	tmciver	gfredericks: no, it doesn't seem to.
15:19	tmciver	and I can't get the :checkout-deps-shares to work. :'(
15:19	gfredericks	tmciver: the project in your checkouts directory is also listed in your project.clj, right?
15:19	gfredericks	as a direct dependency?
15:20	tmciver	gfredericks: well, no . . .
15:20	gfredericks	oh that's it then
15:20	gfredericks	sorry I should have mentioned that first
15:21	tmciver	gfredericks: I guess I assumed the checkouts magic would make that unnecessary. Now to figure out the right dependency vector... Thanks.
15:21	gfredericks	yessir
15:21	gfredericks	(I think I made that mistake at first too)
15:21	gfredericks	(or rather made that totally reasonable assumption)
15:22	tmciver	gfredericks: ha, thanks. That makes me feel a little better. :)
15:22	gfredericks	the detail is in the last sentence of the Q/A that mentions checkouts in the README
15:23	tmciver	Yup. Makes sense now.
15:23	tmciver	I did read that, I just don't listen.
15:50	tmciver	gfredericks: I still can't get this to work. I put [externalprojectname "1.0-SNAPSHOT"] under :dependencies in my project.clj, but lein is still trying to fetch it externally. What else am I missing?
15:52	tmciver	externalprojectname and "1.0-SNAPSHOT" are what are found in the external project's project.clj.
15:52	abedra	has anyone hooked friend up inside of a noir application yet?
15:52	tmciver	I'm probably screwing up that dep vector. I usually do screw it up if I'm unable to copy it from clojars.
15:54	jayunit100	seems like using qouted lists in "require" never works...
15:54	jayunit100	(require '(clj-json [core :as json])) failed
15:54	jayunit100	(require [clj-json [core :as json]] ) succeeds
15:55	mdeboard	Yeah that's the syntax
15:55	jayunit100	why no qouted list ?
15:55	mdeboard	hell I dunno
15:57	amalloy	lists are for prefixes
15:57	amalloy	oh, you're trying to use them that way. so your issue is that you're trying to quote at all, in the ns form?
15:58	jayunit100	well.. i only qouted one
15:58	jayunit100	Im trying to qoute the "require" package statement,,, but i always get weird errors
15:59	jayunit100	I guess Im wondering why one works and the other fails, just curious.
15:59	laurus	Does anyone know how one would convert the Python statement b.sum(axis=0) to Clojure-py?
16:01	ibdknox	Blog post on the realities of Light Table: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/22/on-concepts-and-realities/
16:02	ibdknox	if you believe it merits it, please vote it up from the HN new page: http://news.ycombinator.com/newest
16:02	laurus	Hm, interesting. The correct conversion seems to be: (kwapply (.-sum b) {"axis" 0})
16:03	mmarczyk	dnolen: those arity warnings are great! just prepared a patch for three missing arg cases in core (in PHM, PST and PV)
16:05	dnolen	mmarczyk: cool, that's what I was pinging you about :) thx
16:06	mmarczyk	dnolen: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-196 :-)
16:11	angerman	wasn't there "indexed" ?
16:12	hcumberdale	Does anyone know how to format an url "pretty"
16:12	mdeboard	What does that mean
16:12	mdeboard	@ hcumberdale
16:12	hcumberdale	(defn urlfriend [unfriendly] (s/replace (s/trim (s/lower-case unfriendly)) #"[^A-Za-z0-9_]+" "-"))
16:12	hcumberdale	that's what I am using now
16:12	hcumberdale	"I am a blogpost about ... $" >> "i-am-a-blogpost-about-"
16:13	angerman	ibdknox: did that really need a blog response? That post on concepts vs realities was completely off to me; and as someone on HN already said: it was comparing apples to oranges)
16:13	ibdknox	angerman: it was for that
16:13	ibdknox	wasn't*
16:13	hcumberdale	It does not nice things like "replace $ with "usd", € with "eur" and so on
16:13	ibdknox	and I was writing this before that post existed
16:14	ibdknox	angerman: he brings up some valid points and he's not the only one who has been wondering about some of these things.
16:14	angerman	ibdknox: alright. Sorry for commenting on the title already. Will go and read it.
16:14	ibdknox	angerman: I actually didn't realize the title collided with his, whoops
16:17	mdeboard	hcumberdale: Why replace those characters? They're valid URL characters
16:17	laurus	Is there any way to make clojure-py "print" something automatically in the repl, like the standard Clojure repl does?
16:17	mdeboard	hcumberdale: That's called slugifying a URL btw
16:19	mdeboard	laurus: What environment are you using it in?
16:20	laurus	mdeboard, just CPython.
16:20	ibdknox	technomancy: I think to me that falls under tryings being encouraged (RE: your tweet)
16:20	mdeboard	laurus: I'm not familiar with clojure-py at all so I'm confused by your question. Normal Python automatically prints things in the repl.
16:20	ibdknox	s/tryings/trying
16:21	angerman	Wasn't there an `indexed' function that returned the list with indices?
16:21	laurus	mdeboard, well, what I mean is, that if I run, say, (np/arange 3), it shows #<numpy.ndarray object at 0x1dea060>
16:21	laurus	But if I run (println (np/arange 3)) I get [0 1 2] and then nil.
16:21	laurus	So somehow it is not "printing" the first one.
16:22	mdeboard	laurus: I'd suspect `(np/arange 3)` internally calls the `__repr__` method in Python
16:22	laurus	mdeboard, ah, that's interesting.
16:22	laurus	I wonder if there is any way to change the REPL behavior.
16:23	mdeboard	and forcing evaluation calls the __call__
16:23	laurus	Because it's kind of annoying to have to run println on everything...
16:23	mdeboard	Clojure-py is kind of an annoying concept imo
16:23	laurus	Why?
16:23	clojurebot	Why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
16:25	mdeboard	Because Python is already an abstraction, so is Clojure, then you combine these two abstractions and make something even leakier and you wind up with weird crap like having to run (println) to call a method
16:25	mdeboard	like if you want to use Clojure, use Clojure
16:26	Frozenlock	How does one use a function on a map? This was my naive approach: (map #(pr-str %1 %2) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
16:26	mdeboard	I can understand like Jython or JRuby or whatever to target the JVM and all
16:26	laurus	mdeboard, but I want SciPy, matplotlib, etc. etc.
16:26	hcumberdale	mdeboard << slugifying... ahh
16:27	amalloy	angerman: indexed went out in 1.2, i think. you want something like ##(doc map-indexed)
16:27	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/map-indexed ([f coll]) Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f... https://refheap.com/paste/2292
16:27	angerman	amalloy: great, thanks
16:27	amalloy	Frozenlock: map only passes its function one argument. if you seq over a map, you get a seq of pairs - so to do something with the keys and values in a map, your function needs to accept one argument, a pair
16:28	Frozenlock	Oh!
16:28	Frozenlock	I was over complicating things :)
16:28	Frozenlock	Thanks!
16:29	mdeboard	laurus: Does Clojure-py let you use those libraries in clojure programs?
16:30	laurus	mdeboard, yeah, that's what's so great about it ;)
16:30	mdeboard	Ahh
16:30	laurus	For scientists it seems like Python has become the main "glue" language.
16:30	mdeboard	Wait, what
16:31	Frozenlock	laurus: no org-babel?
16:31	mdeboard	How would that work
16:31	laurus	mdeboard, I mean, they seem to use Python to link together a bunch of libraries written in Fortran, C++, etc.
16:32	laurus	So Clojure-py may not be so misguided after all :)
16:32	mdeboard	No, I mean, how would it work to have Python libraries compiled in a jar
16:32	laurus	mdeboard, oh, it doesn't let you do that, of course
16:32	laurus	By "Clojure" programs I meant Clojure programs compiled to Python bytecode.
16:32	laurus	I need to go; thank you for the help!
16:32	mdeboard	Oh, then why not just write in Python?
16:33	Iceland_jack	mdeboard: Personal preference?
16:33	laurus	mdeboard, because Clojure is a great language
16:35	mdeboard	I'm just averse to the notion of using only one language
16:35	Iceland_jack	Sorry what does that matter to you?
16:36	mdeboard	Because I enjoy having opinions
16:36	Iceland_jack	hah
16:36	ibdknox	I have no opinions. They are icky things ;)
16:37	Iceland_jack	Indeed, rid yourself off them. They will not be missed
16:40	jimi_hendrix	question: in (defmulti foo class), what does the class bit refer to?
16:41	mdeboard	Iceland_jack: You must be a hoot at parties
16:41	Iceland_jack	I am
16:42	mdeboard	PURGE IMPURITY FROM YOUR MIND
16:42	Iceland_jack	Yes?
16:42	clojurebot	yes is is
16:48	amalloy	mdeboard: have you tried applying your clojure-py objections to clojure-jvm? why would you write clojure to use java libraries? just writing in java works fine
16:49	mdeboard	amalloy: I was literally just thinking about that
16:49	babilen	Wouldn't it be great if you could use Python and Java libraries at the same time?
16:50	zakwilson	ibdknox: your resume links to diderot.com, which is dead.
16:50	Iceland_jack	babilen: If done correctly, it would be fantastic.
16:50	ibdknox	zakwilson: aw
16:50	ibdknox	zakwilson: that was a ridiculous project
16:50	mdeboard	I was reading the clojure py docs, I just don't feel like you gain anything close to what you do moving from Python to Clojure as you do from Java to Clojure
16:51	ibdknox	zakwilson: it was an incredibly dumb idea lol, but they sank so much money into it
16:51	ibdknox	zakwilson: basically it was like open table, but for wine reservations
16:51	zakwilson	I wish somebody would sink money in to something I'm doing.
16:51	ibdknox	zakwilson: the guy had the largest single database of wines in the world
16:51	ibdknox	zakwilson: it's where I learned how much I hate SQL :)
16:51	zakwilson	Or just hire me for a well-funded project.
16:52	zakwilson	I hate SQL too!
16:52	Iceland_jack	Imagine there's noSQL...
16:52	zakwilson	I like the concept of relational databases, but how we interact with them is on a level comparable to assembly language, except SQL is a horrible assembly language.
16:55	kasterma	Is there a command to restart the slime-repl? Today twice I got bitten by old defs still being around; I'd like an easy way to start with a fresh slate.
16:55	raek	kasterma: well, you can use remove-ns
16:56	raek	but if you have namespaces that depend on the namespace you removed, you have to remove the (manually) as well
16:56	raek	or you can re-run clojure-jack-in
16:58	kasterma	Ahh, I thought I had tried the re-running of clojure-jack-in, but now it does give me a clean slime.
16:58	mdeboard	kasterma: I am sure there's a better way than this but what I do is switch to the swank buffer, kill that, then re-run clojure-jack-in
16:59	kasterma	I had tried re-running clojure-jack-in, but apparently I failed. Now it works. Not the cleanest, but much better than restarting my whole emacs. Thx!
16:59	zakwilson	In other news, who here gets too much email and uses android?
17:00	amalloy	kasterma: technomancy tells me the latest (snapshot?) version of lein-swank clears old defs when you recompile
17:04	kasterma	amalloy: That would have saved me lots of time today. Added to my todo-list to update.
17:04	amalloy	or swank-clojure or whatever the relevant library is. you're probably better off looking around on the web than listening to me
17:05	kasterma	Todo item updated. :-)
17:05	mindbender1	please how do I prevent gen-class from overriding public final methods of the superclass
17:05	umren	in java, they using swing for guis?
17:11	mindbender1	am I hopeless with the gen-class issue. Please guys I need some pointers
17:15	dnolen	hmm does the Clojure compiler optimize calls to variadic fns? Does it create the seq at compile time?
17:15	muhoo	mindbender1: don't define them?
17:16	amalloy	dnolen: i don't think it can create the seq at compile-time unless all the arguments are known, right?
17:16	dnolen	amalloy: yes I'm talking about the common optimizable case (not higher order)
17:17	amalloy	no, i mean like (defn f ([x] ...) ([x y] ...)) (f a b) - it can't create a seq of a and b at compile time because they only have runtime values
17:17	amalloy	but i think it doesn't even need to, unless you're using apply
17:17	ideally_world	is 4clojure working properly? I submitted an answer for #28 and I'm getting a "You tripped the alarm! def is bad!" message. The only restriction is flatten? :(
17:17	amalloy	ideally_world: you can't def things
17:18	ideally_world	really? been a while since I used it, thought I could defn ? :/
17:18	muhoo	ideally_world: use let
17:18	amalloy	no, just use letfn or whatever
17:18	ideally_world	ah, cool, thanks
17:18	ideally_world	so, then, yes it is working correctly :)
17:18	amalloy	dnolen: that is, (f a b) should compile into f.invoke(a, b), which is about as optimal as they come
17:19	mindbender1	muhoo: I don't understand clearly what you mean
17:19	dnolen	amalloy: sorry was not clear I only mean the rest arg case.
17:20	amalloy	so for something like (defn f [x & xs] ...) (f 1 2 3 4)?
17:20	muhoo	mindbender1: i don't either, because i haven't seen your code. but if gen-class is overriding stuff, usually it's because you've overridden it in your code somewhere
17:20	hcumberdale	mhhh!
17:20	hcumberdale	(if number (q/limit number) nil)) << does not work
17:21	hcumberdale	I want to add the code (q/limit number) if number is not nil
17:21	mindbender1	muhoo: the gen-class doc says that it overrides all public methods of the super class but I think it forgot to take public final methods into consideration
17:21	muhoo	it overrides the ones you define, IIRC
17:23	mindbender1	muhoo: I didn't define any of the super class methods I only specified that it extends the super class then I compiled the ns and then tried instantiating the generated class and the jvm throws an error that a public final method has been overridden
17:24	muhoo	did it say which one?
17:24	mindbender1	when I looked at the generated class the jd-gui I noticed all methods of the super class has been overridden
17:24	mindbender1	*with jd-gui
17:25	mindbender1	yes it did
17:25	muhoo	the constructor, perhaps?
17:26	mindbender1	you mean I shouldn't specify a constructor signature?
17:27	muhoo	i dunno. i haven't seen any problems like that, but i've been kind of cheating and using this instead of gen-class: https://github.com/llasram/shady
17:28	mindbender1	I'm sure if you can try extending a super class with a public final method you can reproduce the same errors
17:28	muhoo	post a simple breaking example on refheap.com maybe?
17:28	true_droid	hey guys! does clojure scan the entire source code for each function definition expanding all macros that it finds?
17:30	mindbender1	muhoo: I will try doing that in the mean time thanks for the link I want to definitely try that one out and see how it goes for the same situation
17:33	mindbender1	muhoo: do I use the same compile fn to generate the classes from shady as there no such instruction on the readme
17:34	true_droid	I'm trying to figure out this behavior https://refheap.com/paste/2294
17:38	dgrnbrg	I just synthesized my first simulatable module in piplin, a Clojure HDL, to Verilog: http://bit.ly/JZK1GO
17:38	dgrnbrg	Sorry, full link: http://blog.dgrnbrg.com/post/21600152008/hooray-first-synthesized-code-result-with-piplin
17:38	dgrnbrg	I'm very excited :)
17:39	amalloy	macros don't have a value, true_droid
17:39	amalloy	though, bonus points for using a lambda as your shell prompt
17:41	true_droid	amalloy: yeah, I see that :) but why does the compiler generate the error and not runtime?
17:42	true_droid	does this mean that the compiler is eager enough to look into the `let` form and evaluate its args?
17:42	amalloy	because...it's a compiled language, and you tried to refer to a symbol it can't find a value for?
17:43	true_droid	amalloy: hm, I see; so this behavior might be different in other Lisps, right?
17:43	amalloy	it absolutely does not evaluate the args of the let form, but it has to compile code for computing their values
17:43	amalloy	shrug
17:43	amalloy	anything might be different
17:48	true_droid	amalloy: thanks
17:48	dnolen	amalloy: yeah I'm thinking about (f 1 2 (array 3 4 ...))
17:49	dnolen	and direct invocation to the rest case, no going through JS arguments object of course.
17:50	amalloy	in jvm-clojure, at least, i think (f 1 2 3 4) compiles to something like f.invoke(1, 2, new ArraySeq(new Object[] {3, 4}))
17:50	amalloy	but now it sounds like you're talking about cljs
17:50	dnolen	amalloy: yes I was wondering how it was done in CLJ - that was the approach I'm thinking about for CLJS
17:57	amalloy	dnolen: just had a quick peek at some .class files - it looks like (f 1 2 3 4) compiles to f.invoke(1,2,3,4). c.l.RestFn implements that by calling doInvoke (which is your function's impl) by wrapping the remaining args in an ArraySeq
18:04	jimi_hendrix	does clojure not have tuples, or am i insane?
18:04	amalloy	it doesn't have/need tuples. just use vectors or whatever
18:04	amalloy	dnolen: i think that layer of indirection is necessary for dynamism in clojure (what if f is recompiled to take a different number of positional args), but you could do better in a precompiled language like cljs
18:04	jimi_hendrix	ok
18:06	dnolen	amalloy: yeah this would be an optimization for advanced compilation or :static-fns true
18:11	mmarczyk	anybody interested in running some jsPerf tests for CLJS? (trying to figure out just how fast small ObjMaps are for access) see links on the ticket: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-190
18:14	mmarczyk	ah, wait
18:14	mmarczyk	should have included aget on object, I guess
18:15	mmarczyk	oh bother.
18:15	mmarczyk	I'll edit.
18:16	mmarczyk	oh no, I will not -- forgot to wrap aget in prep code -- in the next batch then
18:17	dnolen	mmarczyk: looks about right
18:18	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah
18:18	mmarczyk	dnolen: I think the current reprecating patch doesn't use transients when doing the conversion though
18:19	mmarczyk	dnolen: so I'll make a new one
18:20	dnolen	mmarczyk: I wonder what a good threshold is?
18:22	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah... not at all clear to me
18:22	mmarczyk	dnolen: the 16 is totally random (slightly more than array map threshold in clj)
18:23	dnolen	mmarczyk: try 64?
18:23	mmarczyk	dnolen: I'm thinking to do a jsPerf tests for conversions from various sizes, will try 8, 6, 32, 64, 128
18:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: constructing an ObjMap by hand, then running the conversion function. we'll see what sort of difference this makes
18:25	dnolen	mmarczyk: we should pick the size where PHMs overtake, clearly at 500 keys PHMs win based on your earlier tests.
18:25	mmarczyk	^"I'm thinking about doing a jsPerf test"
18:28	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, I'll do some lookup tests for larger sizes too
18:30	mmarczyk	hm, must take care of sth else though just now, will post the new tests when I get back w/ the new patch
18:31	mmarczyk	dnolen: btw, I don't know what to make of the "hand-assoc'd" vs. literal thing
18:31	mmarczyk	dnolen: if there were no difference -- fine, but hand-assoc'd >> literal is just weird
18:32	mmarczyk	ok, bbl
19:40	huangjs	hmm...my slime repl will drop if I do completion for keywords (i.e. (get :k <--- then press tab to complete), in swank it says "unreadable message: (:emacs-rex (swank:completions-for-keyword ":k" ...
19:40	huangjs	anyone has the same trouble?
20:09	hcumberdale	how can I get the context (url) of my web application in clojure?
20:09	hcumberdale	http://www.xyz.ch/tickets/123 << I mean http://www.xyz.ch
20:18	lynaghk	mmarczyk: your suggestion yesterday about using metadata to change how an atom prints works fine in Clojure, but in cljs printing is implemented as a protocol rather than multimethod so the same trick doesn't work
20:19	lynaghk	Have any other ideas?
20:33	jimi_hendrix	has anyone had an issue with slime/swank where connecting to 'lein swank' via slime-connect does not spawn a repl
20:36	ibdknox	Anyone know who has the power on HN to change the title of someone else's post?
20:40	charles_r	I've noticed that every so often, my repl just hangs. I'm using slime in emacs 22. Has anyone solved this?
21:03	brehaut	charles_r: are you driving a mac?
21:13	mdeboard	cemerick: Hey do I get a check for $1 if I spot an error in your book
21:14	mdeboard	(re: SICP)
21:14	cemerick	mdeboard: If I open myself up to that, I may be signing my AOT bankruptcy papers. :-)
21:14	mdeboard	Page 63 of my edition has an error right at the top when describing the reduce function
21:15	mdeboard	&(reduce max [0 -3 10 48])
21:15	lazybot	⇒ 48
21:15	mdeboard	but the book says 10 :(
21:15	mdeboard	lol
21:15	mdeboard	@ bankruptcy
21:16	cemerick	well, now I just hate myself :-\|
21:16	cemerick	Hopefully that's the only blatantly stupid error in the thing.
21:16	cemerick	mdeboard: thanks for pointing it out though :-)
21:16	mdeboard	Feh this is by far the best Clojure book
21:16	mdeboard	I've read Joy of and Practical Clojure
21:17	cemerick	mdeboard: you can open an issue on the github repo if you like
21:17	cemerick	There's an errata tag.
21:17	mdeboard	The "down the rabbit hole" and chapter 1 are both amazing intros that weren't matched in the other two
21:17	cemerick	Thanks :-)
21:17	cemerick	mdeboard: be sure to leave your reviews when you're ready
21:17	mdeboard	Where's the repo?
21:17	cemerick	https://github.com/clojurebook/ClojureProgramming
21:18	mdeboard	Do I need to tag it with errata somehow?
21:20	cemerick	mdeboard: you don't need to, I can do it. There should be an errata label on the 'new issue' screen for the repo.
21:20	mdeboard	Ok then
21:21	mdeboard	https://github.com/clojurebook/ClojureProgramming/issues/9
21:22	cemerick	thanks :-)
21:22	mdeboard	np, thanks for the awesome book.
21:24	cemerick	thanks for the feedback, keep it coming
21:24	cemerick	s/feedback/bug reports ;-)
21:41	clojure_newb	I think the following is a perfectlyr easoanble request. If not, please explain to me why. I want a clojure IDE (with repl, documentation, browsing of the source tree, and listing of all the def's and defn's) -- written and scriptable in clojure. Why does this not exist?
21:42	hiredman	I want a flying car
21:42	hiredman	also peace on earth, I guess
21:42	hiredman	but war on mars
21:43	seancorfield	clojure_newb: clooj probably comes closest - that's written in clojure
21:43	clojure_newb	hiredman: I think my requests are slightly less ambitious
21:43	seancorfield	https://github.com/arthuredelstein/clooj
21:44	clojure_newb	I've looked at clooj
21:44	clojure_newb	I would have to do work myself, i.e. hack in the scriptability part
21:44	seancorfield	why not contribute to that open source project to make it better? i'm sure arthur would appreciate the help
21:44	brehaut	the simple answer is "because nobody has written one"
21:45	brehaut	the more complex answer is "it takes a lot of effort to write all that"
21:45	clojure_newb	because I would slow down the project
21:45	clojure_newb	<-- not professionaly trained, mainly a hobbyist
21:46	seancorfield	fork it on github, add scriptability, send arthur a pull request
21:48	seancorfield	most clojurians are probably not writing clojure for their paid day job btw
21:53	TimMc	OK, how do I initialize a DB schema in Korma?
21:54	TimMc	I've tried (exec-raw db (slurp "schema.sql")) but the SQLite file remains empty.
21:57	mdeboard	hiredman: lol @ war on mars
21:58	mdeboard	TimMc: Isn't that what defdb does
21:58	mdeboard	oh, right.
22:03	TimMc	I've looked at Lobos, but the only example I've seen is insane: https://github.com/vijaykiran/clog/blob/master/src/lobos/migrations.clj
22:05	kab3wm	with-open should negate the need to (flush) or (.close s) right?
22:06	TimMc	And Ragtime doesn't seem to provide a way to initialize.
22:06	TimMc	kab3wm: Right.
22:09	jayunit100	guys i just saw this question on stackoverflow its a really good one
22:09	jayunit100	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10271653/is-there-a-clean-way-to-add-functions-to-a-dynamically-created-namespace
22:09	jayunit100	he poses the question of how to dynamically add functions to a namespace - and has a macro solution which doesnt seem to work.
22:12	xeqi	TimMc: korma.incubator has some schema stuff in it
22:12	TimMc	xeqi: Thanks, I'll check that out.
22:12	TimMc	It just feels like I must be missing something obvious.
22:14	TimMc	Hmm, that doesn't allow loading of raw SQL, which is what I assumed.
22:15	TimMc	Well, anything that works...
22:15	_KY_	I find it rather strange that (nil? ()) is false, why is that?
22:16	charles_r	only 'nil and 'false are false . . . just like Ruby if I recall
22:16	metellus	() is a list with no elements
22:16	felideon	shouldn't it be like lisp?
22:16	kab3wm	TimMc: I've used Korma, but didn't require initalizing a DB. Looking at the API, exec-raw seems like a good approach. Seems like if you could get a simple 'SELECT * from whatevs' with exec-raw working you could do anything.
22:17	mdeboard	&(nil? '())
22:17	lazybot	⇒ false
22:18	mdeboard	Someone had a good table of truthy and falsey values that I cannot find atm
22:18	mdeboard	might have been TimMc?
22:18	ivan	is repl-utils available anywhere but clojure.contrib?
22:18	mdeboard	ivan: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
22:18	mdeboard	says uhm
22:18	felideon	&(nil? ())
22:18	lazybot	⇒ false
22:18	mdeboard	migrated to clojure.repl and clojure.java.javadoc
22:19	mdeboard	&(nil? 0)
22:19	lazybot	⇒ false
22:19	xeqi	TimMc: ah, you want to just send sql, it looks like exec-raw uses jdbc/do-query which doesn't handle that
22:19	ivan	mdeboard: thanks! I should've looked there
22:19	xeqi	I can try and paste something with jdbc in a moment
22:20	TimMc	xeqi: Oh, huh.
22:20	TimMc	Well, if I use JDBC, I'll use do-commands
22:20	TimMc	with splitting on semicolons -.-
22:20	xeqi	basically what I would have written
22:21	TimMc	I've got something like that lying around.
22:21	TimMc	I'm just having trouble believing that's not already in JDBC.
22:22	xeqi	theres lots of things that aren't built yet
22:22	xeqi	like nested transaction rollback w/ savepoints
22:22	ivan	I'm making clj-swingrepl better, anyone have feature requests?
22:23	_KY_	The word nil means something empty, and () is empty...
22:23	_KY_	What is nil equal to? only false? then what is the difference between nil and false?
22:23	felideon	_KY_: I wonder if this it's why When you ask a sequence on its last element for the rest it returns another logical sequence. You can only tell if that sequence is empty by calling seq on it in turn. This enables sequences and the sequence protocol to be lazy.
22:24	hiredman	~google "define nil"
22:24	clojurebot	First, out of 1060 results is:
22:24	clojurebot	Nil \| Define Nil at Dictionary.com
22:24	clojurebot	http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nil
22:24	xeqi	&(= nil false)
22:24	lazybot	⇒ false
22:24	jappinen	so if I do a $lein swank, then a M-x slime-connect I can successfully connect to my swank server and execute code from buffers... in addition how do I open up a repl to that swank server... I don't see a repl buffer like I do if I M-x clojure-jack-in?
22:24	felideon	this is*
22:24	_KY_	,(rest ())
22:24	clojurebot	()
22:25	brehaut	trying to pin down the exact meaning of nil seems like a difficult task
22:25	_KY_	Yes, nil means "nothing"
22:25	brehaut	what kind of nothing
22:25	brehaut	in clojure its a value, but it also doubles as null in java which is a reference nothing
22:25	_KY_	It seems to have no use if it's not equal to (), from what I see'
22:26	_KY_	You mean null pointer?
22:26	lynaghk	mmarczyk: for reference, I used (extend-protocol IPrintable...) to get the cljs serialization working.
22:26	brehaut	well, the null reference; its not a bare pointer in java
22:27	felideon	"Keywords are not Symbols" ... so what are keywords if I may ask?
22:27	_KY_	What would be an example that returns nil?
22:27	brehaut	,({:a 1} :b)
22:27	clojurebot	nil
22:27	_KY_	I see... thanks for explaining...
22:27	brehaut	huge amounts of the clojure library return nil for things
22:29	seancorfield	,((juxt next rest) ())
22:29	clojurebot	[nil ()]
22:30	seancorfield	,(map seq [nil ()])
22:30	clojurebot	(nil nil)
22:30	seancorfield	,(map empty? [nil ()])
22:30	clojurebot	(true true)
22:31	seancorfield	,(map type [:a-keyword 'a-symbol])
22:31	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.Keyword clojure.lang.Symbol)
22:32	seancorfield	,(identical? :a-keyword :a-keyword)
22:32	clojurebot	true
22:33	seancorfield	,(identical? 'a-symbol 'a-symbol)
22:33	clojurebot	false
22:33	seancorfield	felideon: does that help?
22:33	felideon	hmm
22:34	seancorfield	keywords evaluate to themselves - a unique instance - symbols evaluate to whatever they are bound to
22:34	seancorfield	,(let [a-symbol "my-value"] a-symbol)
22:34	clojurebot	"my-value"
22:36	felideon	,'foo
22:36	clojurebot	foo
22:37	seancorfield	,(quote foo)
22:37	clojurebot	foo
22:37	felideon	,(let [foo 'bar] foo)
22:37	clojurebot	bar
22:37	seancorfield	,(macroexpand 'foo)
22:37	clojurebot	foo
22:37	seancorfield	hmm, that didn't do what i expected :)
22:38	seancorfield	,(let [a :one, b a, a :two, c a] (str "b is " b " and c is " c))
22:38	clojurebot	"b is :one and c is :two"
22:38	seancorfield	in that expression the symbol a is bound to :one, then b is bound to a's value, then a is (re-)bound to :two, then c is bound to a's (new) value
22:48	ivan	how do I do something like (binding (get-bindings) blah)?
22:48	ivan	that causes Caused by: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: binding requires a vector for its binding in ...
22:49	felideon	,(nil? [])
22:49	clojurebot	false
22:50	metajack	How do other people do webapp configuration in clojure? Do you use the servlet JNDI stuff? How do you do the config when you are testing at the repl? So far what I'm doing feels a little clumsy.
22:53	brehaut	metajack: my clojure web stuff is pretty simple; im just running an embeded jetty and using couchdb via clutch. i do all my configuration via a binding based middleware around my ring handler
22:54	metajack	brehaut: I don't suppose there is a sample on github I could look at?
22:55	wkmanire	Good evening.
22:55	wkmanire	:)
22:55	brehaut	metajack: sorry, windows VM is grinding my machine to a crawl. one moment
22:55	metajack	right now I am reading things out of JNDI for production and have that wrapped in an (if …) for when the JDNI lookup fails at the repl. I suppose one alternative is to somehow bundle a .config in the distributed jar or read from /etc
22:56	brehaut	metajack: http://brehaut.net/blog/2012/configuration_middleware is the closest i have to public examples
22:58	beffbernard	Style question… do I do something like (for [option options] [:option option]) or (mapcat #(vector (option %)) options) given (defn option [value] [:option value])
22:58	xeqi	metajack: clojars reads a resource file, and using lein2 profiles can specify different resource-paths
22:59	metajack	xeqi, brehaut: thanks for these examples!
23:01	wkmanire	brehaut: The ring link on your site is broken.
23:01	wkmanire	404
23:01	brehaut	huh, so it is
23:02	brehaut	wkmanire: try http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction
23:02	metajack	xeqi: so it looks like clojars puts some production config.clj into ./resources. does it get added to the war or is clojars deployed some other way?
23:02	wkmanire	brehaut: Thanks.
23:02	wkmanire	That is one badass link transition by the way.
23:03	brehaut	?
23:03	brehaut	oh, the mouse over?
23:03	wkmanire	When you mouse over hyperlinks they do a transformation.
23:03	wkmanire	Very cool
23:03	xeqi	it's deployed just using an uberjar that starts jetty
23:03	brehaut	thanks :)
23:03	xeqi	but I don't see why it wouldn't work with the config in a war
23:04	muhoo	is ther some way to grab ahold of the handler in noir from within the repl?
23:04	muhoo	i see gen-handler to create a new one. i don't want that. i want somehow to grab ahold of the handler that was gen'ed and handed to jetty
23:04	brehaut	wkmanire: fixed; it'll be live next time the nginx cache is refreshed
23:05	metajack	xeqi: i guess i was trying to keep the config outside of the war. i probably need to see what tomcat does for classpath stuff
23:06	Frozenlock	Is there a function to sort "smartly"? For example, I would like if "10" was coming after "2" when sorting strings.
23:06	Frozenlock	,(sort ["x1" "x10" "x2"])
23:06	clojurebot	("x1" "x10" "x2")
23:08	rlander	I just create my first (very) small utility library in clojure. Could anybody take a look at the code, please? I'm not sure if it's idiomatic...=)
23:09	rlander	http://hastebin.com/xexeqicufo.lisp
23:10	tmciver	rlander: the body of the trim-to function could simply be (take trim-value string-to-trim)
23:11	salisbury	is there an easy manner in which to change a byte from BE to LE?
23:11	tmciver	actually (apply str (take trim-value string-to-trim))
23:11	technomancy	is it crazy that I'm a lot more interested in Light Table as a browser than as an editor?
23:12	rlander	tmciver: Thanks for looking, I'll try that and run the tests!
23:12	tmciver	technomancy: lein question: if I use checkouts do I need to include that dep in the project file?
23:12	xeqi	technomancy: yes
23:12	technomancy	tmciver: yes, checkouts are supplemental
23:13	technomancy	xeqi: my first thought when clojurescript was announced was: I wonder if I can use this for extending my browser
23:13	tmciver	technomancy: what if the lib has no public pom, how does lein get it's deps? I see that the checked out project's lib directory is not put on the classpath by default.
23:14	technomancy	tmciver: right; leiningen doesn't work with dependencies that don't have poms
23:15	rlander	tmciver: Other than that, is it ok? It's my first time touching Java since college =)
23:16	tmciver	technomancy: OK. I tried to use a function in :checkout-deps-shares as I saw in the sample project.clj but I get a NPE somewhere.
23:16	technomancy	tmciver: ooh interesting; I hadn't thought of that
23:16	tmciver	technomancy: I was trying to just add that project's lib dir.
23:17	tmciver	rlander: well, I don't know anything about that Normalizer thing but it looks pretty good to me.
23:17	technomancy	tmciver: the path of least resistance is definitely to create a project.clj file
23:17	tmciver	technomancy: for what? The checked out project? It has one.
23:18	rlander	tmciver: thanks!
23:18	technomancy	tmciver: I must be misunderstanding you then; I thought you said the lib has to public pom
23:19	technomancy	"Philosophers and logicians--including Aristotle--have long discoursed on the properties and attributes of objects. Von Wright, according to [Hughes68,p.184], distinguishes between formal properties, "whose belonging to an object is always either necessary or impossible", and material properties "whose belonging to an object is always contingent"."
23:19	technomancy	<- from the Egal paper
23:19	technomancy	"Obviously, material properties--being contingent--cannot contribute to an object's identity, while formal properties--being necessary--are an inherent part of an object's identity."
23:19	technomancy	makes me think of values vs metadata
23:21	technomancy	though he talks about material properties being mutable, which isn't true of metadata
23:21	technomancy	though it is true of text-properties on emacs strings
23:21	tmciver	technomancy: when I say no public POM I mean this lib is not on clojars or maven central so lein's attempts to find its deps will fail. But it does have a project.clj, of course, so I could create a POM but I thought the point of checkouts was to avoid all of that.
23:21	ivan	how do I apply a map like {:init set-defaults!} to call like (func :init set-defaults!)?
23:21	tmciver	I'm sure it's something I'm misunderstanding.
23:22	technomancy	tmciver: the point of checkouts is to offer a more convenient workflow while developing on two projects
23:22	technomancy	it really doesn't have anything to do with declaring dependencies
23:22	technomancy	you need to get things working solely in terms of project.clj first, then you can add the convenience of checkout deps
23:23	ivan	oh, got it, (flatten (seq
23:23	technomancy	flatten?
23:23	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
23:23	xeqi	&(apply (partial apply str) {:a :b})
23:23	lazybot	⇒ ":a:b"
23:23	tmciver	technomancy: but in order for the main project to access the transitive deps I need to either declare the checked out project in project.clj or have the checked out project's lib dir on the classpath. Am I thinking about this correctly?
23:24	technomancy	tmciver: the lib dir is an implementation detail
23:24	tmciver	?
23:24	technomancy	if you're thinking in terms of the lib dir or the classpath directly then you're making an abstraction leak
23:25	technomancy	you should be thinking in terms of declaring your dependencies and letting Leiningen worry about finding them
23:26	technomancy	if you have dependencies that aren't part of a repository, your first order of business should be to get them into a repository
23:26	technomancy	(this is assuming a proper project that you want to automate rather than just screwing around or experimenting)
23:27	kovasb	anyone here use c2?
23:27	tmciver	technomancy: as an example my main project does not depend on commons-lang but the checked out project does. Running 'lein deps' on the main project does not pull it down though; running on the checked out project does. But the main project does not seem to have access to commons-lang.
23:29	technomancy	tmciver: is this because the main project doesn't have the other in its :dependencies?
23:29	tmciver	technomancy: yes, and if I put it there, lein complains that it can't find it.
23:30	technomancy	tmciver: ok, then what you need to do is make sure that the checkout project is in a repository that the main project can reach
23:30	technomancy	tmciver: if you only care about making it work on your machine, you can use `lein install`; otherwise you need to do `lein deploy` on a private repository
23:30	technomancy	easiest way to do that is with s3-wagon-private
23:30	technomancy	~repeatability
23:30	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
23:30	technomancy	^ probably want to read that while you're at it
23:31	tmciver	technomancy: Ah! Looking... I think 'lein install' might be what I want.
23:32	tmciver	technomancy: I'd like the checkouts thing to work if I were using a private project (that wasn't in any public repo yet).
23:32	technomancy	sure
23:34	Lajjla	$(apply str {:a :b})
23:34	Lajjla	&(apply str {:a :b})
23:34	lazybot	⇒ "[:a :b]"
23:35	Lajjla	Intruiging
23:35	Lajjla	&(apply + {:a :b})
23:35	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: Cannot cast clojure.lang.MapEntry to java.lang.Number
23:35	yoklov	apply probably coerces it to a seq or something
23:36	Lajjla	&(apply str (seq {:a :b}))
23:36	lazybot	⇒ "[:a :b]"
23:36	Lajjla	&(seq {:a :b})
23:36	lazybot	⇒ ([:a :b])
23:36	Lajjla	You gotta explain that one to me
23:36	Lajjla	Ohhhhhhh
23:36	tmciver	&(seq {:a 1 :b2})
23:36	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms
23:37	tmciver	&(seq {:a 1 :b 2})
23:37	lazybot	⇒ ([:a 1] [:b 2])
23:37	Lajjla	&(str '[a b c d])
23:37	lazybot	⇒ "[a b c d]"
23:37	Lajjla	Am I the only one who finds that particularly weird?
23:37	Lajjla	&(str "I worship his shadow")
23:37	lazybot	⇒ "I worship his shadow"
23:37	metellus	what's weird about it?
23:37	tmciver	Oh no!
23:38	Lajjla	Clojure, you confuse me.
23:38	Lajjla	metellus, well, check that
23:38	Lajjla	Why would a string called with a vector be that?
23:38	Lajjla	&(str [\a \b \c \d])
23:38	lazybot	⇒ "[\\a \\b \\c \\d]"
23:38	metellus	so you know it's a vector
23:38	Lajjla	But surely it should signal an error since it's not a character
23:39	Lajjla	&(str [\a \b \c \d] [\e \f \g \h)
23:39	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
23:39	mdeboard	What
23:39	Lajjla	&(str [\a \b \c \d] [\e \f \g \h])
23:39	lazybot	⇒ "[\\a \\b \\c \\d][\\e \\f \\g \\h]"
23:39	metellus	that's not what str does
23:39	Lajjla	&(str \a \b \c)
23:39	lazybot	⇒ "abc"
23:39	mdeboard	&(for [s "Hello world"] s)
23:39	lazybot	⇒ (\H \e \l \l \o \space \w \o \r \l \d)
23:39	Lajjla	metajack, then what does it?
23:39	mdeboard	What are you confused by, Lajjla?
23:40	mdeboard	I don't understand your question, "Why would a string called with a vector be that?"
23:40	metellus	With one arg x, returns
23:40	metellus	x.toString()
23:40	Lajjla	And with two/
23:40	metellus	a concatenation of their .toString(0s
23:40	metellus	.toString()s
23:41	Lajjla	So a character .toString in java returns just a single character string?
23:41	metellus	yes, what else would it return?
23:41	Lajjla	THe external repraesentation of the character apparently if it does that with a vector?
23:41	metellus	a vector is not a character
23:41	Lajjla	Why does it return the external repraesentation in one case but just the sequence of codepoints in another
23:41	Lajjla	Yes
23:42	Lajjla	so why does it do something fundamentally different on a character as it does on a vector
23:42	metellus	how is it fundamentally different?
23:42	Lajjla	Because in one case it's the external repraesentation and in antoher is not.
23:42	metellus	I don't know what you mean by "the external representation"
23:42	Lajjla	Basically, if this was on an IQ test, as in [a b] is to "[a b]" as \a is to ...
23:43	Lajjla	You would answer "\a" and not "a"
23:43	Lajjla	metellus, what you write down in code to denote that datum
23:43	Lajjla	the external repraesentation of a character z is like "\z" in code
23:43	mdeboard	I think you mean literal representation, not external.
23:43	xeqi	&(str (Object.))
23:43	lazybot	⇒ "java.lang.Object@9a6cc8"
23:44	Lajjla	mdeboard, same thing, different terminology
23:44	Lajjla	Well
23:44	mdeboard	No.
23:44	mdeboard	It's not.
23:44	Lajjla	that is the part where it's even more confusing, though I can see what it means
23:44	tmciver	Lajjla: I think you're expecting (str [:a :b]) to behave like ##(apply str [:a :b])
23:44	lazybot	⇒ ":a:b"
23:44	Lajjla	Not at all
23:45	Lajjla	I'm saying that if (str \a) returns "a" then that thing should signal an error or return nil, because it doesn make sense.
23:45	amalloy	i think he just wants pr-str
23:45	amalloy	&(pr-str \a)
23:45	lazybot	⇒ "\\a"
23:45	Lajjla	To call it on a non character in that sense
23:45	Lajjla	Well, that is the reverse case
23:45	Raynes	amalloy: WAZUP
23:45	mdeboard	&(class \a)
23:45	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Character
23:45	mdeboard	&(class "a")
23:45	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.String
23:45	Lajjla	If (str [1 2 3]) returns that then (str \a) should return "\a"
23:46	amalloy	hey, Raynes, you made it home! when i didn't see you at all yesterday i thought maybe you died on the way
23:46	Raynes	amalloy: Bahaha. Didn't I talk to you earlier today? I thought I did.
23:46	tmciver	technomancy: thanks for the help; 'lein install' was what I needed.
23:46	mdeboard	Lajjla: Then how would you propose differentiating a Character instance from a symbol?
23:46	yoklov	ugh, callbacks are awkward in cljs :/
23:46	Lajjla	tmciver, but surely you agree that [a b c] in code is to "[a b c]" as \a in code is to "\a" ?
23:46	amalloy	oh, i guess you did. i don't really pay attention
23:47	Lajjla	mdeboard, what do you mean, a character becomes "\a", a symbol becomes "a-symbol"
23:47	muhoo	and stop calling him shirley.
23:47	mdeboard	What.
23:47	metellus	Lajjla: it doesn't show up as "[a b c]" because that's how it's represented in code, it shows up that way because it's a logical way to display it as a string
23:47	mdeboard	Are you trolling?
23:47	amalloy	tmciver, muhoo: Lajjla just likes to complain about existing functionality
23:47	muhoo	i noticed that
23:47	amalloy	oh, and mdeboard
23:47	metellus	similarly, the logical way to display a character as a string is to display that character
23:47	Lajjla	metellus, but surely to display a character as a string as "a" is not useful since (str \a) becomes the same as (str "a")
23:48	Lajjla	If you're talking about differentiating
23:48	metellus	I'm not talking about differentiating
23:48	Lajjla	Well, define for me, what does str do then exactly?
23:48	Lajjla	Because with vectors it seems to display the code you must enter to parse into that datum
23:49	metellus	calls .toString() on its arguments
23:49	Lajjla	and with strings and characters it does something unrelated
23:49	Lajjla	What is the definition of .toSTring() then?
23:49	muhoo	there's that shirley again :-)
23:50	muhoo	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A5t5_O8hdA
23:50	metellus	it takes the object and converts it to a string, generally for reading by humans
23:51	Lajjla	metellus, reading as in, inferring what that object is?
23:51	Lajjla	As we already established that there is colission
23:51	metellus	[a b c] becomes "[a b c]" because that's a handy way to display a list, not because that's how you write the code (although the two are similar)
23:51	metellus	no, not reading as in inferring what that object is
23:51	Lajjla	Reading for what purpose then?
23:51	xeqi	more collision ##(str "[a b c]")
23:51	lazybot	⇒ "[a b c]"
23:51	metellus	reading as in reading and seeing what it represents
23:52	Lajjla	Quite, was about to point that out.
23:52	Lajjla	That is the same thing in different words.
23:52	metellus	for example calling toString on a Date object gives a string of the form dow mon dd hh:mm:ss zzz yyyy
23:52	Lajjla	But there is colission, does "[a b c]" repraesent a vector or a string as xeqi pointed out?
23:52	metellus	which does not and should not have anything to do with how the Date looks in code
23:52	Lajjla	Well, that's another case then I guess.
23:52	Lajjla	str seems to do many things.
23:52	Lajjla	Depending ont he type of its argument
23:53	metellus	in Java, each class defines its own .toString
23:53	metellus	so yes
23:53	metellus	well, either defines its own or inherits it
23:53	Lajjla	True
23:53	xeqi	I'm surprised I haven't heard serialization come up yet
23:58	felideon	what's the best way to just pop into a REPL without having a project.clj
23:59	amalloy	lein repl, for whatever recent version of lein
23:59	felideon	hmm that works