#clojure – 2012-03-18

2012-03-18

00:01	ideally_world	How would you test state with Midje?
00:08	ideally_world	For the time being, just going to create a sub function that calculates the state that the state setting function uses and then test the sub function...
00:12	yoklov	weird, there's no `any?` function?
00:13	yoklov	but there's a `not-any?`, `every?`, and `not-every?`
00:13	yoklov	that just seems inconsistent.
00:15	ideally_world	some?
00:18	yoklov	oh
00:18	yoklov	right.
00:22	archaic	also look at contains?
00:23	pyninja	not to be confused with .contains
00:23	ideally_world	contains? is probably more what you are looking for...
00:24	ideally_world	though some is a bit more generic :)
00:30	amalloy	contains? doesn't sound anything like what he's looking for
00:38	ideally_world	amalloy, you're probably right, just talking out of my ass :(
00:38	ideally_world	not unusual for me...
00:42	mdeboard	Are multimethods a vehicle to method overloading?
00:44	ibdknox	they're for polymorphism, yeah
00:45	tremolo	yea, it's really more method overriding than overloading
00:45	tremolo	overloading is where arity comes in
01:03	ideally_world	suspect midje and live-coding are somewhat incompatiable :/
01:06	wmealing	midje is for mocking right ?
01:07	muhoo	well that was a fun weekend. my brain is full now.
01:07	wmealing	live coding (ie artistic ) ?
01:08	wmealing	that is something ive always been interested in
01:09	cgag	f
01:09	cgag	'
01:09	cgag	';
01:09	cgag	woops, was just waking my monitor up
01:10	ideally_world	midje is a testing frame work that is a bit more abstract than normal testing
01:10	wmealing	ah
01:10	ideally_world	live coding is more for overtone, which I only dabble with rarely
01:10	ideally_world	but the live-coding configs actually got my emacs environment sane enough for me to start using Clojure
01:11	ideally_world	I really like the feel of midje "test". Basically stating facts on what is expected confirm (or not) that they are true
01:12	ideally_world	"FAILURE: 1 fact was not confirmed. (But 20 were.)" :)
01:43	wmealing	i've yet to do it, i'm pretty new to clojure, just working my way through the coans now
01:43	wmealing	ideally_world, are you using somehting like supercollider ?
04:41	ideally_world	wmealing, yes, using supercollider on a mac
05:51	Fullmoon	Does Emacs + Slime make a good development environment for clojure code?
05:55	foobar27	Fullmoon: I'm quite happy with it, though I use swank (which uses slime)
05:56	foobar27	especially the interactive evaluation is quite practical if you've just started with clojure
05:56	foobar27	do you already work in emacs?
05:58	ideally_world	isn't swank slime's backend?
05:58	ideally_world	that is, it's the server that makes slime possible
05:59	ideally_world	IMHO, Emacs with Slime is the best environment for writing Clojure code
05:59	ideally_world	I realy really really hate using it for Clojure code :)
06:05	foobar27	ideally_world: you seem to be right
06:13	dan_b	is there a "not" missing in your last message, ideally_world?
06:14	dan_b	if you hate using the best environment, I tremble to thionk of your reaction to any of the lesser ones
06:14	ideally_world	:)
06:14	ideally_world	It speaks volumes for how much I like the language
06:14	dan_b	or are you a Lisp Machine trero grouch?
06:14	dan_b	s/trero/retro/
06:15	ideally_world	how ever you word it, I've never seen a Lisp Machine
06:15	ideally_world	though I probably grew up pretty close to a few...
06:15	dan_b	(the delightful thing abut clojure is how devoid the community is of "hey let's build a lisp machine" people)
06:15	dan_b	at least, what I've seen of it so far
06:15	ideally_world	Hey, let's not build a Lisp Machine...
06:15	ideally_world	there's your not :)
06:16	dan_b	hehe
06:17	ideally_world	I'd hate emacs more if technomancy hadn't pointed out the bleedy obvious commands on https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
06:22	AimHere	Lets build a java bytecode machine in hardware, and run clojure on it
06:43	ideally_world	I guess dragging the C programmers half way to Lisp, dragged some of them towards Lisp Machines? :)
06:46	ambrosebs	given a protocol and a class, is there a function that determines if an instance of that class "satisfies" that protocol?
06:47	ideally_world	satisfies?
06:47	ambrosebs	say (satisfies? IParseType []) ;=> true
06:48	ideally_world	but I'd expect you did that already
06:48	ambrosebs	I want (magic-fn IParseType PersistentVector) ;=> true
06:48	ambrosebs	well I can kinda see a way to use some private clojure.core functions to make my own function
06:48	ambrosebs	but id rather not ;)
06:49	ambrosebs	another pair of eyes is always good
06:49	ideally_world	my eyes are tired and naive
06:49	ideally_world	:)
06:49	ambrosebs	xD
06:49	ideally_world	and not quite what they were at the Conj :)
06:49	ideally_world	although probably a bit less naive than then
06:50	ideally_world	actually spoke to you a couple of times at the Conj
06:50	ideally_world	and back in Australia
06:50	ambrosebs	orly? remind me?
06:50	ideally_world	tall :)
06:50	ambrosebs	LOL pic?
06:50	ideally_world	false :)
06:51	ambrosebs	haha :)
06:51	ideally_world	lol
06:51	ambrosebs	well im deep into Typed Clojure
06:51	ideally_world	American accent from Australia
06:51	ideally_world	said hello on the way back from the Firday not party
07:02	ambrosebs	ok, made my own implementation. just minor modification of clojure.core/find-protocol-impl
08:39	jaley	For some reason, after grabbing slime-ritz from marmalade, package.el won't autoload it. It loads other packages, and if I open slime-ritz.el and load it manually, that works fine. Anyone else have this issue?
08:52	bsteuber	I wonder how I could find out in which lein2 profile I am from a when-in-production macro
08:54	bsteuber	I would probably add a different hook copying over a lein-profile.clj, but maybe there's a simpler way?
09:19	tomoj	any glossers around? finite-block seems to be basically identity. you can encode byte arrays, but buf-seqs just decode back to buf-seqs
09:19	tomoj	so how do we get a byte array?
09:20	tomoj	I thought (.array (gloss.io/contiguous buf-seq)) worked, but I realize now this will sometimes return too much
09:20	rfgpfeiffer	hello?/who
09:21	llasram	tomoj: You need to get a byte-array on decode, not encode, right?
09:23	tomoj	right
09:23	tomoj	ah, I think this works:
09:24	tomoj	(let [b (byte-array len)] (.get (gloss.io/contiguous buf-seq) b) b)
09:24	rfgpfeiffer	I'd like to write a native clojure compiler for gsoc. Is anybody here familiar with cola/pepsi/potion/fonc?
09:26	llasram	tomoj: Something like that should work, but seems a bit hacky; still hacky, but you should be able to use .remaining on the `contiguous' ByteBuffer to get the real content size
09:26	llasram	tomoj: I did a quick look, and I don't see anything in gloss to decode directly to a byte array, but it wouldn't be too hard to implement in terms of gloss's internal protocols
10:27	wink	hello, anyone knows some semi-fleshed out user management for noir web apps? not that it would be hard to reinvent., but still... :P
10:33	bsteuber	wink: I just googled around a bit and found https://github.com/remvee/ring-basic-authentication
10:34	wink	bsteuber: thanks, will take a look at it. I just usually hate trying 5 things when there's a generally accepted well-known default :)
10:35	bsteuber	:)
11:21	yoklov	so, if i have a small piece of necessary application-specific state which needs no concurrency semantics, which reference type should i be using?
11:22	yoklov	usually I use atom, but should i be using var instead? or ref?
11:22	Vinzent	yoklov, usually atom is ok
11:23	yoklov	yeah, what throws me is the description of var as "thread local state"
11:24	Vinzent	in order to modify var you have to bind it first, like (binding [foo 1] ... (set! foo 2))
11:25	Vinzent	so if you don't need thread-local bindings, you don't need dynamic vars
11:25	yoklov	right, and that definitely seems like a hassle, but do i need that if i do `(def ^:dynamic foo)`
11:25	yoklov	and
11:26	yoklov	actually that makes sense, so if i _need_ the state to be thread local, use a var
11:27	Vinzent	exactly. If you want just plain "mutable variable", atom is ok
11:27	Vinzent	although, usually you don't want it :)
11:29	yoklov	of course not, but you sometimes need it
11:31	yoklov	(e.g. in my silly unlambda interpreter there's a "current-character" at all times, which is a tiny piece of necessary state)
11:31	raek	if your application has essential state, then you need something like it
11:33	yoklov	yeah. i had just been wondering if i was horribly abusing clojures reference types by using atom
11:56	fliebel	morning
11:58	antares_	yoklov: atom is a good place to start.
11:59	yoklov	yeah, i almost never need concurrency semantics in my programs, and had been using atom when i needed some state.
11:59	yoklov	just felt like checking that that was, in fact, appropriate
12:06	Chousuke_	yoklov: if you write your programs using mostly pure functions, changing it later won't be that difficult anyway
12:06	yoklov	yup
12:07	yoklov	and a nice thing about clojure is that i always have that option
12:07	yoklov	as opposed to other functional languages where concurrency support is spotty at best
12:08	yoklov	(depending on the language, of course)
12:08	Chousuke_	clojure has an edge in that the concurrency tools are orthogonal to the rest of the language.
12:08	Chousuke_	I suppose that
12:08	Chousuke_	is true of Haskell too
12:10	Chousuke_	but in lots of languages you have to worry about how to use the rest of the language in a way that doesn't interfere with concurrency when you decide to add it.
12:11	Chousuke_	java interop has that sort of effect in clojure too, though :P
12:14	yoklov	right, i came from programming mostly in racket, and if you want concurrency in that you either have to settle for working fake concurrency, or not-really-working parallelism
12:16	yoklov	clojure overall is an extremely well-designed language, and the concurrency sematics are certainly no exception (even though i never really finding myself wanting to use them)
12:19	Chousuke	It seems to me that Clojure's good design stems from rhickey's insistence on simplicity as he defines it. As you add features designed like that, it looks like people perceive it as overall good design :P
12:19	mdeboard	go figure :P
12:24	yoklov	yeah, definitely. and comparing to other lisps, it helps a lot to be modern.
12:30	zw	it is a little strange, (require 'clojure.contrib.str-utils) success in lein repl, but failed in slime. but I do not find clojure-contrib.jar in my box, so why lein repl can find it?
12:31	zw	There is only clojure-1.3.0.jar, no clojure-contrib.jar
12:32	Bronsa_	zw: this is because lein repl outside a project runs a repl from within leiningen's process
12:32	raek	zw: in the same project?
12:33	Bronsa_	and leiningen < 2.0 uses clojure 1.2 and clojure-contrib
12:35	raek	zw: also, use clojure.string instead. the old contrib is deprecated and clojure.string has been available since 1.2
12:42	pandeiro	anyone using lynaghk's c2 lib yet? https://github.com/lynaghk/c2
12:43	zw	thanks Bronsa and raek
12:43	zw	Bronsa, you said leiningen has its own clojure?
12:43	Bronsa_	well
12:44	Bronsa_	clojure is included in leiningen's standalone jar
12:44	raek	zw: Leiningen and your project run in separate environments
12:44	raek	you control the project environment through the project.clj file
12:45	zw	Oh, where is leiningen's jar? I only find .lein and .m2 directories
12:45	raek	in one of those...
12:45	Bronsa	LEIN_JAR="$LEIN_HOME/self-installs/leiningen-$LEIN_VERSION-standalone.jar"
12:45	zw	Yes, I just want to know the global jars, not per project
12:45	Bronsa	it's in .lein/self-install
12:46	raek	zw: when just tinkering, it's common to have a project for that
12:46	raek	leiningen is not built for developing outside projects
12:47	raek	so if you want to play with, say, clojure 1.3 and some library, do a "lein new tinkering" and declare those libs in the project.clj file
12:48	Bronsa	alias clj="java -cp `for i in $HOME/src/dummy/lib/*.jar; do echo -n $i: ; done` clojure.main"
12:48	Bronsa	i have this on my .zshrc
12:48	raek	if you just started learning clojure, don't try to install libraries globally as you would do in other languages
12:49	zw	why? raek
12:49	raek	when in Clojure-land, do as Clojurians do :-)
12:49	wink	install ALL the libs!
12:49	raek	zw: also, leiningen does not have any concept of globally installed libraries
12:49	raek	so you can't
12:50	zw	I think I can set swank-clojure's classpath, so the libs won't be downloaded while (clojure-jack-in)
12:50	raek	if you just want to get started with clojure, it's probably easiest to do thing the way most other people do them
12:50	Vinzent	zw, libs are downloaded when you do lein deps
12:50	raek	zw: libraries are only dowloaded once (unless you use SNAPSHOT versions)
12:51	Vinzent	zw, M-x clojure-jack-in just starts swank server and connects to it
12:51	zw	yeah, but I just wandering the other way
12:51	Vinzent	why do you need it?
12:51	raek	which other way?
12:51	zw	I just want to know if I can do thing differently
12:51	Vinzent	zw, you can, with cljr
12:51	Vinzent	but it has very specific use-case
12:52	raek	well, you basically have "use leiningen" or "download all jars manually and launch clojure with the java command with the correct classpath setting"
12:52	zw	I don't need it, just a little curiously
12:52	raek	zw: one way to se what's going on in leiningen is to use the "lein classpath" command
12:53	raek	a very basic repl can be started with "java -cp <output from lein classpath> clojure.main"
12:53	zw	are results of `lein classpath` different for different projects?
12:54	raek	zw: yes
12:54	raek	different projects use different libraries
12:54	raek	and different versions of them
12:54	raek	which can be incompatible
12:54	zw	so it just result from dependencies/dev-dependencies?
12:54	raek	yes
12:54	zw	I'm using emacs/slime, I like it
12:55	raek	lein download the deps of your project, and the deps of the deps, and so on
12:55	Vinzent	hm, btw, cljr actually seems outdates. Is there modern analogous of it?
12:55	raek	and provides a way to start a repl, swank server, or whatever, with correct classpath settings
12:55	zw	but I download clojure-contrib failed, long list of maven error, does the newest version is 1.3.0?
12:56	Vinzent	zw, clojure-contrib is gone
12:56	raek	zw: there is no clojure-contrib for clojure 1.3
12:56	raek	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
12:56	Vinzent	ah, too slow
12:56	raek	zw: some of the namespaces have been merged into clojure, some have been split off into their own projects, and some are simply unmaintained
12:56	zw	oh, but I have some old code in the book "pragramming clojure" to try
12:57	Bronsa	zw: you can still use clojure 1.2 with clojure-contrib 1.2
12:57	raek	zw: then you can set up a project that uses clojure 1.1 or clojure 1.2
12:57	raek	and things will work exactly like in the book
12:57	zw	ok, seems the only solution
12:57	Bronsa	just put [org.clojure/clojure "1.2.1"] [org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2"] in :dependencies of a project
12:58	zw	I still wander is it necessary to repeat same jars in different projects?
12:59	raek	in lein2 they aren't copied to the lib/ directory anymore
12:59	raek	they are used directly off the .m2 directory instead
13:00	zw	my lein seems to be 1.7.0
13:00	raek	zw: here is the rationale: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
13:00	zw	lein2 is dev version?
13:00	raek	yes
13:00	raek	it's about to be released
13:00	raek	pretty soon
13:02	zw	ok, I feel leiningen is mysterious, I should do some read
13:03	zw	thank you guys, it's very nice chatting to you
13:04	zw	go to sleep now, bye guys!
13:05	zw	I'll be back :)
13:05	yoklov	leiningen rules
13:05	yoklov	both the 30's sci-fi novel _and_ the program
13:05	zw	I've heard about the novel
13:06	yoklov	by novel i mean short story, actually
13:06	yoklov	and yeah
13:06	yoklov	i read it for class in highschool haha, it's very cool. i really like that lein's name is a reference to it
13:08	zw	Oh, I havn't read it, maybe I should find it
13:08	yoklov	if you have some time to kill it's worth it.
13:08	zw	ok, thanks
13:08	zw	bye
13:17	yoklov	,(#([3, 4]))
13:17	yoklov	oh damn
13:17	yoklov	&(#([3, 4]))
13:17	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentVector
13:17	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
13:18	yoklov	&(#(vector 3 4))
13:18	lazybot	⇒ [3 4]
13:18	yoklov	weird.
13:18	raek	([3 4]) and [3 4] are not the same thing
13:19	yoklov	yeah, but that's not what's happening, is it?
13:19	raek	therefore #([3 4]) = (fn [] ([3 4])) is not the same thing as (fn [] [3 4])
13:19	yoklov	really?
13:19	TimMc	&((constantly [3 4]))
13:19	lazybot	⇒ [3 4]
13:19	raek	note the extra parens
13:19	raek	you try to call [3 4] as a functions
13:19	raek	-s
13:20	yoklov	yeah, i guess that makes sense
13:20	TimMc	&(#())
13:20	lazybot	⇒ ()
13:20	raek	#(...) is a shorthand for the sommon cases when you want an anonymous function that performs a call
13:20	TimMc	&`#([3 4]) ; yoklov
13:20	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [] ([3 4]))
13:20	raek	*common case
13:20	yoklov	raek: yeah i knew that
13:21	yoklov	TimMc: that makes more sense now
13:21	yoklov	I should use ` more often when i'm confused by the reader
13:22	yoklov	actually, raek, i guess i didn't realize that it was for when it performs a call specifically.
13:22	raek	&'#([3 4])
13:22	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [] ([3 4]))
13:23	TimMc	Yeah, ' is often clearer to read than `.
13:24	yoklov	yeah, ` ends up with all those clojure.core/lists iirc
13:24	yoklov	and concats
13:24	yoklov	wait no that's just if you actually use read
13:25	raek	&`(foo ~bar)
13:25	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: bar in this context
13:25	raek	&'`(foo ~bar)
13:25	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/foo)) (clojure.core/list bar)))
13:25	yoklov	&(with-in-str "`(foo ~bar)" (read))
13:25	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pop-thread-bindings is bad!
13:25	yoklov	whoops
13:26	raek	&(read-string "`(foo ~bar)")
13:26	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox6997/foo)) (clojure.core/list bar)))
13:26	raek	putting double quotes around it and passing it to read-string has the same effect as quoting
13:27	yoklov	that is… weird.
13:28	yoklov	though, not if you do something like (read-string "#=(+ 3 4)") :p
15:27	beffbernard	I'm trying to change the :source-path in a noir project to "src/clj" but jetty doesn't like that
15:30	beffbernard	Oops, just solved my own prob. I didn't change noir.server/load-views to reflect my changes
15:47	choffstein	Anyone know why `lein clean` might not be removing my lib/ directory?
15:48	choffstein	I run lein clean && lein deps and I end up getting multiple snapshots of the same lib, compiled on different days
15:48	choffstein	which isn't such a big deal locally -- I can just manually remove my lib directory -- but sort of sucks on my CI server
15:57	tmciver	choffstein: yeah, doesn't remove jars from lib for me either. The doc says it removes compiled class files and jars.
15:57	choffstein	hm, okay. That seems ... strange to me -- but I guess it makes sense if I am actually managing version numbers correctly, right? Which I don't...
15:59	fliebel	dnolen: Any breakthroughs there? I'm crawling towards a working connectedo goal.
16:00	Jetien	Hi! How can you get the line where the Reader throws an exception? I tried using clojure.lang.LineNumberingPushbackReader and catch the clojure.lang LispReader$ReaderException excpetion, but I can't seem to access its member "line"
16:06	dnolen	fliebel: sorry haven't had a chance to get to it yet, a bit busy putting together a CLJS presentation today
16:07	fliebel	dnolen: Ok, where are you presenting?
16:09	dnolen	fliebel: BK.js this Tuesday and NYC.js next week
16:09	dnolen	anyone tried to use SublimeText with CLJS?
16:14	fliebel	> (partition odd? (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9))
16:14	fliebel	(1 3 5 7 9)
16:14	fliebel	(2 4 6 8)
16:14	fliebel	(scheme, not clojure)
16:31	Frozenlock	I'm trying a compojure example. In it, there's the Float/parseFloat function. However this leaves me with an ugly .0 when I have a full number. By using read-string it seems I can avoid this problem. Is there any drawback to using read-string instead of Float/parseFloat?
16:41	beffbernard	Frozenlock: Depends if you want a Double or not I guess
16:41	beffbernard	,(class (read-string "0.0"))
16:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Double
16:41	beffbernard	,(class (read-string "0"))
16:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
16:42	Frozenlock	Well that's the beauty of it, it will asign the correct type automatically.
16:42	Frozenlock	No need to parse integer or float, just read-string
16:43	beffbernard	Yup
16:43	Frozenlock	yahoo! :D
17:05	nybbles	anyone know if it's possible to load incanter.core without any guy windows opening up?
17:07	nybbles	arch i meant *gui windows
17:07	nybbles	stupid autocorrect..
17:10	jkkramer	Frozenlock: keep in mind that read-string reads more than just numbers
17:10	jkkramer	&(read-string "#=(println \"hi\")")
17:10	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
17:11	cgag	nathanmarz: I was reading the storm tutorial the other day, there's a missing "````" following the ExclaimationBolt extends BaseRichBolt example
17:17	mk	why does are there 20 invoke methods taking 1-20+ arguments?
17:17	mk	-does
17:21	nathanmarz	cgag: thanks, fixed
17:21	mk	this is from java, for example RT.var("foo", "bar").invoke(...)
17:21	pelleb	Hi guys. I have a question about organization of my new oauth library clauth https://github.com/pelle/clauth
17:21	Hali_303	hi! which is the most up to date joda time library? clj-time was not updated in the last 2 years..
17:23	pelleb	I have a Store protocol for storing tokens, users etc. and a memory based implementation. I want to add redis, datomic etc. Should I do this in the same project with dev dependencies for clj-redis etc or as seperate project for each implementation.
17:23	Raynes	Hali_303: https://github.com/seancorfield/clj-time
17:23	Raynes	Hali_303: Sean's is the canonical repo at this point.
17:26	Raynes	pelleb: Today is probably going to be a pretty slow day in here due to a lot of people flying home and getting settled back in after the Clojure/west conference. If you don't get sufficient replies tonight, I'd give it another shot tomorrow.
17:26	pelleb	Raynes: Thanks. Good point. I wish I could have been there.
17:27	Raynes	As do I.
17:29	Hali_303	Raynes: thanks!
17:29	Hali_303	Raynes: any way to use lein to use this version of clj-time?
17:30	Raynes	Hali_303: The one on clojars is his.
17:30	Hali_303	Raynes: hm
17:30	Raynes	[clj-time "0.3.7"]
17:30	Raynes	http://clojars.org/clj-time
17:31	Hali_303	oh i see
17:40	mk	are there any nice interfaces from java to clojure?
17:47	gfredericks	mk: I wrote a clojure macro for generating classes with static functions from clojure
17:48	mk	gfredericks: got a link?
17:48	gfredericks	$google lib-2367
17:48	lazybot	[fredericksgary/lib-2367 · GitHub] https://github.com/fredericksgary/lib-2367
17:48	gfredericks	it's the lib-2367.export ns
17:49	gfredericks	mk: let me know if you have any questions/suggestions
17:50	gfredericks	mk: there's more documentation about options in the macro's docstring
17:51	mk	you could add an example of what the generated code looks like
17:52	gfredericks	mk: it's boring gen-class stuff -- you'd really find that helpful?
17:52	mk	I was thinking of it the other way, with some sort of way to call clojure code from java
17:52	gfredericks	mk: yeah that's what this is for
17:53	gfredericks	you stick the macro at the bottom of your ns, make sure to aot-compile the ns, and then you will have a class with a static method for each public function
17:54	mk	I was thinking that maybe a good way to make clojure easier for people (including myself, since I'm learning) is to pretend that clojure is really a java ... jar, in a sense
17:54	gfredericks	well the clojure language is certainly a jar
17:54	gfredericks	and it's easy enough to make jars from clojure projects with leiningen
17:55	mk	yeah, but to start it up one needs to set up what initially looks like a whole bunch of strange tools
17:55	gfredericks	what tools beyond leiningen?
17:57	mk	if you have a bunch of java code that you'd need to use, and you're used to working from eclipse, you now have to figure out ccw, and so on
17:57	gfredericks	ah
17:57	ideally_world	yeah, there's the language, then there's the tool support :(
17:58	gfredericks	it's not easy to make everything easy
17:58	ideally_world	at least the language is consistent :)
17:58	gfredericks	most of the time
17:58	ideally_world	more often then the tool support seems to be
17:59	mk	whenever I get into a new language, I have the most trouble with just that initial step. I tried scheme, I think... there's this pseudo-emacs editor that it uses, I think?
17:59	ideally_world	trial by fire, if you can't get the tool support working, you're not passionate enough to use the language? :)
17:59	mk	it took me about 5 minutes to quit (unfortunately, maybe)
18:00	mk	yeah, in a sense. Keeps the newbies out too :)
18:00	ideally_world	I sympathise with you mk, I've been having a go at learning for about 6 months and only just getting comfortable with emacs dev
18:00	gfredericks	I find it simpler to avoid things like eclipse
18:01	mk	well... I really mean bad coders, but lisp itself should keep those out, or magically turn them into good coders
18:01	gfredericks	probably as a result of the fact that it takes so much effort to develop plugins
18:01	ideally_world	the hard part with the toolset is that you need to use them consistently and that's sometimes hard to do when you're starting to learn the language
18:01	mk	gfredericks: I hardly use plugins
18:02	gfredericks	mk: I mean like for new languages like clojure
18:02	ideally_world	everyone is different, but I'd strongly recommend having a good long run at using emacs with all the Clojure support
18:02	gfredericks	I've had success with using eclipse when I need to do java and classic CLI tools when doing clojure, and mixing them together
18:02	mk	gfredericks: well, hopefully someone does that for you - like ccw
18:03	gfredericks	mk: yeah, but because it takes more effort for that to get done, the set of things available at the command line is usually a superset of the set of things available in an IDE
18:03	gfredericks	and when you work with things that aren't mainstream like clojure, that difference tends to be more stark
18:04	mk	gfredericks: yes, but what's available isn't always what's easy. An ide makes them available in an easy way. In any case, some people are used to eclipse...
18:04	mk	but the bigger thing, I guess, is that people are used to however they load up java
18:07	mk	if I had a main method with at the very least load("path/file.clj") and startrepl() or something, then it's like I haven't really left the java toolchain at all
18:08	gfredericks	hmm
18:08	gfredericks	that doesn't soudn impossible
18:09	gfredericks	mk: you can call general clojure functions from java in a mildly clunky way using e.g. RT.var("clojure.core/load-file").invoke("path/file.clj")
18:09	gfredericks	I think that's correct, not 100% sure
18:10	bbloom	quick question about idiomatic use of vectors and conj: i frequently run into the situtation where i have a vector, process it in some way, wind up with a seq, and then want to conj onto the right of it
18:10	bbloom	i have to either (conj (vec whatever) x) ….or…. (concat whatever [x])
18:10	bbloom	seems clunky
18:10	mk	gfredericks: yeah - Object result = RT.var(path, "foo").invoke(args);
18:10	bbloom	am i missing something?
18:11	gfredericks	bbloom: I think clojure 1.4 has something for that
18:11	bbloom	:-P what's it called?
18:11	gfredericks	mapv
18:11	gfredericks	,clojure-version
18:11	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
18:11	gfredericks	,(doc mapv)
18:11	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a vector consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
18:11	gfredericks	yep
18:12	bbloom	ah, that's cool, but not exactly what i need because i'm not always using map
18:12	bbloom	for example when working with paths in a tree: (interleave path (repeat :children))
18:12	bbloom	I have to do: (concat (interleave path (repeat :children)) [x])
18:13	mk	I'm having fun looking at RT.var at the moment, I had program set up to automatically reload loaded .clj files whenever a save occurs. That's a bit ugly, though.
18:13	gfredericks	yeah :/ I guess there's not really a good answer to that besides 1.4
18:14	bbloom	does 1.4 help with this in some other way?
18:14	gfredericks	oh right
18:14	gfredericks	forgot map doesn't apply :)
18:14	gfredericks	then no probably not
18:14	wink	hm.. is it possible to convert strings/vars to usable keywords? my problem is: hiccup's "[:input.myclass" syntax, I'd like to do something like (let [x '(str ":input." y)] [x ...
18:15	bbloom	haha ok, thanks
18:15	gfredericks	wink: like ##(keyword "foo")?
18:15	lazybot	⇒ :foo
18:15	bbloom	`(keyword "asdf")
18:15	bbloom	,(keyword "asdf")
18:15	clojurebot	:asdf
18:15	wink	doh. thanks :)
18:16	mk	if there were some way to just treat clojure like... xml or jsp files, then perhaps some number of java programmers could be tricked into using clojure
18:17	mk	just having a repl hooked up to running code might be enough for some people
18:20	gfredericks	mk: I think chas emerick is pretty interested in this topic; I think he may have started a google group or something
18:22	mk	thanks, I'll look that up
18:24	gfredericks	,(-> cdr a is car other my quote flatten)
18:24	clojurebot	(clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> ...)
18:24	gfredericks	hmph
18:26	gfredericks	&(-> cdr a is car other my quote flatten)
18:26	lazybot	⇒ (my other car is a cdr)
18:26	gfredericks	oh
18:26	gfredericks	&clojure-version
18:26	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
18:26	gfredericks	so what changed about -> between 1.3 and 1.4?
18:29	tmciver	gfredericks: I was going to ask you about that the other day; I couldn't figure it out and it wouldn't work in my repl.
18:29	Luyt_	&(-> cdr a is car other my quote flatten) ; amazing
18:29	lazybot	⇒ (my other car is a cdr)
18:30	tmciver	The threading macro is building up a list of symbols by placing each at the end of the thing that comes next?
18:31	gfredericks	tmciver: yeah
18:31	gfredericks	tmciver: for reference: ##(-> cdr a is car other my quote)
18:31	lazybot	⇒ (my (other (car (is (a cdr)))))
18:32	gfredericks	tmciver: adding quote to the end of a threading macro is a great way to see what it's doing
18:32	gfredericks	at least in 1.3 it is :)
18:32	tmciver	gfredericks: Can't get it to work in my swank repl.
18:32	gfredericks	tmciver: what clojure version?
18:32	tmciver	gfredericks: 1.3
18:32	gfredericks	weerd
18:33	gfredericks	tmciver: well you can at least use lazybot
18:33	tmciver	gfredericks: it gives me the following: (clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> cdr a is car other my)
18:35	gfredericks	tmciver: well I can't figure out why quoting the thing doesn't work, but I can help with understanding the -> macro in general if that's your issue
18:38	tmciver	gfredericks: does it work in your own repl?
18:38	gfredericks	nope
18:39	gfredericks	and lazybot won't show me ##(source ->) for some reason
18:39	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
18:39	gfredericks	$source ->
18:39	lazybot	-> is http://is.gd/8TJH2p
18:39	gfredericks	ooh there we go
18:39	tmciver	gfredericks: I understand the threading macro I guess I was just surprised that it worked with unquoted symbols like that.
18:39	Raynes	Those links need to be updated.
18:39	Raynes	&(require 'clojure.repl)
18:39	lazybot	⇒ nil
18:40	Raynes	&(clojure.repl/source ->)
18:40	lazybot	⇒ Source not found nil
18:40	Raynes	FFFUUU
18:40	gfredericks	tmciver: it's because the symbols end up inside a (quote) form before they ever get evaluated
18:41	gfredericks	since -> is a macro, it does all its macroey things first, by which time everything's inside of (quote) and so never gets evaled
18:41	tmciver	gfredericks: yeah, that makes sense.
18:41	gfredericks	Raynes: yeah that link is to the middle of an unrelated docstring in 1.2 :)
18:42	gfredericks	amalloy: explain us the mysteries of (->)?
18:43	Raynes	amalloy is sick with the lisplauge.
18:43	gfredericks	that sounds parenthetical
18:44	amalloy	huh?
18:44	gfredericks	amalloy: what is the difference between ##(-> cdr a is car other my quote flatten)
18:44	lazybot	⇒ (my other car is a cdr)
18:44	gfredericks	and
18:45	gfredericks	,(-> cdr a is car other my quote flatten)
18:45	clojurebot	(clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> clojure.core/-> ...)
18:45	gfredericks	the former seems only reproducible by lazybot
18:45	amalloy	lazybot probably macroexpands it too much
18:46	gfredericks	oh it has to handle it manually?
18:46	amalloy	sorta
18:46	gfredericks	weerd
18:47	gfredericks	,(-> cdr a is car other my quote macroexpand-all flatten)
18:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: macroexpand-all in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:48	gfredericks	ah well
18:48	amalloy	gfredericks: lazybot has to mostly-macroexpand stuff, so he can find out if you're doing some illegal interop hidden by a macro like memfn
18:48	amalloy	he carefully doesn't macroexpand stuff inside of (quote ...), but i think (-> x quote) tricks him
18:48	gfredericks	that lazybot sure is vigilent
18:48	gfredericks	$botsnack
18:48	lazybot	gfredericks: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
18:49	Raynes	all ur code r belong to us
18:49	gfredericks	clojurebot: all ur code \|r\| belong to us
18:49	clojurebot	Alles klar
18:51	mk	'(x) and (list x) don't do the same thing?
18:52	gfredericks	no
18:52	gfredericks	note the difference between ##(list 1 2 (+ 2 3)) and
18:52	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 5)
18:52	gfredericks	&'(1 2 (+ 2 3))
18:52	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 (+ 2 3))
18:53	mk	what is ' equivalent to?
18:53	gfredericks	quote
18:53	mk	ah
18:53	gfredericks	&(quote (1 2 (+ 2 3)))
18:53	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 (+ 2 3))
18:53	mk	thanks
18:53	gfredericks	sure
18:54	gfredericks	mk: '(...) isn't used very often since you can get list-ish literals using vectors without having to quote
19:02	mk	does the clojure java code have to be untyped (object and exception are everywhere) for clojure to function, or does Rich hate types?
19:03	gfredericks	clojure is a dynamically typed language
19:03	gfredericks	so...I think that's the normal way to do it on the jvm
19:04	raek	mk: I think there are version of the clojure data structures with generics in another project
19:04	raek	in case you want to use them in a java app
19:05	raek	https://github.com/krukow/clj-ds
19:05	mk	I see - thanks
19:07	gfredericks	mk: it sounds like you might be looking for a much tighter coupling between java/clojure than is intended/possible; I think anytime you have a radically different language, things will be a little rough at the boundary points. At least from the static side to the dynamic side. Using java from clojure is much cleaner.
19:12	mk	yeah, I understand that. There just seem to be places where it could be a bit easier - like the lack of any javadocs in the code
19:14	gfredericks	you're browsing through the java source files?
19:14	mk	via clojure-src.jar
19:16	gfredericks	I'd say you're definitely not using clojure the way most beginners do; but I guess that just leads back to the eclipse discussion
19:20	mk	it's mosty because I'm toying with using parts of clojure from java (I'm not sure how it'll work out in the end, but it's interesting enough)
19:24	gfredericks	I guess it'd be cool if lib-2367 could generate classes from namespaces in libraries. Well maybe it can...I suppose if you just put (ns clojure.core) (export-ns) it would at least try
19:24	gfredericks	the class might be too big; not sure
20:00	seancorfieldw	foolishly trying to get emacs / swank etc running on windows 8 (what else is there to do on a sunday afternoon)...
20:00	seancorfieldw	i run lein swank, try to slime-connect, it says connected but i don't get a slime-repl in emacs
20:00	seancorfieldw	i can eval code and send it to the swank server tho'
20:01	seancorfieldw	doing the same on my mac produces a slime-repl as expected
20:01	seancorfieldw	guess i missed a step in setup on win8?
20:05	seancorfieldw	hmm, slime-repl-set-package is void ... so i'm guessing that's because the repl didn't start?
20:08	seancorfield	nm, lein swank had failed due to an existing process on that port... sigh
20:16	rhc	if my clojure-contrib.jar contains clojure/contrib/http/agent.clj, and i run clojure with java -cp clojure.jar:clojure-contrib.jar clojure.main and then run "(:require clojure.contrib.http.agent)" in the REPL, i should be able to use the http ns, right? am I missing something?
20:16	Frozenlock	In the REPL, when I have an object like this one: #<Server Server@2cec33>. How can I "take it back"? I would like to be able to do (.stop #<Server Server@2cec33>).
20:17	gfredericks	Frozenlock: *1 refers to the result of the last expression
20:17	gfredericks	also there is 2 and 3
20:17	gfredericks	Frozenlock: so you can also do (def foo *1) if you need something around longer
20:17	Frozenlock	rhc: I think require is insufficient. Try (use 'your-library-name). But I'm a noob, use it at your own risks :p
20:18	rhc	Frozenlock: ahh, thank you
20:18	Frozenlock	gfredericks: Oh thanks! Just need to count how far away it is now :P
20:18	gfredericks	rhc: (require 'clojure.contrib.http.agent) is what you were trying to do
20:18	rhc	Frozenlock: guess the instructions at the top here: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/http.agent-api.html were a bit misleading
20:18	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/http.agent-api.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
20:18	rhc	lazybot: ahhh thank you :)
20:19	rhc	which also has the correct require..
20:19	gfredericks	require/use/import have different syntax depending on whether they are inside of a (ns) declaration or run as proper functions
20:19	rhc	gfredericks: ah, care to elaborate? or should i look at the docs for require/use/import
20:20	gfredericks	rhc: basically when you run them as functions you have to quote the arguments, like (require 'foo)
20:20	gfredericks	but inside a (ns) you don't quote, and you add the colon up front
20:20	gfredericks	so (:require foo)
20:21	rhc	ah, cause of the way evaulation works?
20:21	gfredericks	well they could be more consistent; the (ns) macro could have been written to do things just about any way it wanted
20:21	gfredericks	but the functions have to have their arguments quoted because of evaluation, yes
20:22	gfredericks	so if (ns) let you do (ns foo (require 'bar)) then there would be less confusion
20:22	gfredericks	but it's hard to take things back
20:22	rhc	yep
20:22	rhc	makes sense, thanks
20:22	gfredericks	and maybe some reason to keep it the way it is, if only to make people think about the diff between macros and functions
20:23	rhc	thats the trouble when too many people start using your language before you're done ;)
20:23	gfredericks	ha
20:23	gfredericks	needless to say there's been much discussion about it already
20:23	rhc	interesting, doesn't seem terrible, just another little "thing" to remember
20:23	gfredericks	yeah
20:25	Frozenlock	rhc: if you stumble upon an explanation of use/require, could you please send the link this way? :P
20:28	rhc	Frozenlock: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/871997/use-vs-require-in-clojure
20:28	rhc	in my words, 'use' imports the names into your current namespace
20:29	rhc	similar to python from package import * vs import package
20:29	rhc	or in C++ #include <lib.h> vs #include <lib.h> using namespace lib;
20:30	Frozenlock	Ooohhh! Quite an important difference indeed!
20:31	gfredericks	note that you can (require '[foo.bar.baz :as baz]) to give you a shorter prefix
20:35	gfredericks	alright that's it; I'm making a keybinding for paredit-forward-slurp-sexp
20:37	Frozenlock	Not a vanilla Emacs' function.. what does it do? (I can somehow guess, but still...)
20:37	gfredericks	in paredit mode it will move the next form to the end of your current form
20:38	gfredericks	so ((foo bar baz) bang) can become ((foo bar baz bang))
20:39	Frozenlock	Like M-t, but for multiple arguments?
20:39	gfredericks	Frozenlock: are you familiar with paredit?
20:41	Frozenlock	Not really, I use (show-paren-mode) to track my S-expressions. I'll take a look.
20:45	hiredman	~ping
20:45	clojurebot	PONG!
20:45	hiredman	,(+ 1 3)
20:45	clojurebot	4
20:45	hiredman	,(println :foo)
20:45	clojurebot	:foo
20:46	gfredericks	botercizes
20:47	gfredericks	remember to exercise your bot at least twice a day to keep him in shape
20:48	hiredman	I've been off line for days and I think ibdknox was trying to tell me clojurebot was broken
20:49	gfredericks	he seems to have been behaving himself for the last few hours
20:51	amalloy	gfredericks: isn't it bound to C-) and C-RIGHT already?
20:55	seancorfield	finally bludgeoned windows 8 into submission: emacs / clojure-jack-in works beautifully on it now!
20:55	gfredericks	amalloy: tmux hates C-RIGHT and urxvt hates C-shift
20:55	seancorfield	also did slime-connect from win8 VM to swank server run on host mac which was novel :)
21:04	arohner	why does noir call (name) on session keys? Is there a specific reason why session keys should be strings?
21:09	gtrak	hmm, how do we got on prismatic?
21:09	gtrak	get*
21:22	arohner	seancorfield: just wait until you're chaining SSH tunnels for slime :-)
21:23	seancorfield	heh...
21:23	seancorfield	right now i'm playing with starting a swank server inside my application for debugging etc
21:25	arohner	seancorfield: yes, I have slime running on all of my apps, all of the time
21:25	arohner	highly recommended
21:25	rhc	hmm, is this an appropriate place to talk about lein?
21:26	arohner	rhc: yes. I believe there's also #leiningen, but this is fine too
21:26	rhc	why does it download clojure-ver.jar when i try to build a jar file
21:26	rhc	?
21:31	gfredericks	rhc "try to build a jar file" == `lein jar`?
21:34	rhc	gfredericks: yes
21:34	rhc	gfredericks: i was kinda just expecting it to package up the .class/.clj files into a jar with nothing else
21:40	gfredericks	rhc: it doesn't include the clojure jar in the jar it builds, it just uses it to compile against I think. Also probably uses it to run the compiler.
21:41	gfredericks	rhc: check out the jar with `jar tf my-jar-I-just-built.jar`
21:41	rhc	ah, nice
21:41	rhc	gfredericks: thanks for your help
21:41	rhc	do you dev clojure professionally?
21:41	y3di	ahh i can't wait to see the datomic talk, did anyone see at west?
21:42	gfredericks	rhc: yep
21:42	gfredericks	y3di: yep
21:45	y3di	gfredericks: how was it?
21:47	gfredericks	y3di: the idea of making the database-snapshot an explicit part of a query is cool
21:47	gfredericks	the one thing I didn't expect was how easy it is, once you do that, to be able to do things like make hypothetical changes to the db and then query against that hypothetical db without changing the real one
21:48	arohner	y3di: it was very cool
21:48	Frozenlock	I can haz video?
21:49	arohner	yeah, the state of the DB is a value, so you can use it in queries like, "query the DB from last week", or "take yesterday's DB, and apply this transaction to it, and see if the transaction applies w/o error"
21:49	y3di	did it feel/seem revolutionary/next-gen?
21:50	gfredericks	Frozenlock: probably not, this was just on friday; you could watch rich's intro video on datomic.com though
21:52	Frozenlock	20 min talk.. nice :D
22:32	TimMc	They need to get the contents of that into text.
22:32	TimMc	I can't skim video.
22:38	gfredericks	man it's even harder to skim talks at conferences
22:38	gfredericks	you yell at them to jump forward 4 minutes and everybody just stares at you
22:41	icey	I want to mess around with Datomic, but I'm not used to using jars that don't come from Clojars / another Maven repo. Is this approach [ http://www.pgrs.net/2011/10/30/using-local-jars-with-leiningen/ ] appropriate for dealing with local jars, or is there a better / more standard way to go?
22:53	rhc	gfredericks: ok, lein makes so much more sense now :)
22:54	rhc	after putting my code into a lein project, simplifies the dependencies tremendously
22:54	rhc	though its kinda awkward when you want something in github that hasnt been put into clojars so you have to add it locally..
22:55	gfredericks	rhc: yeah that is a bit awkward
22:57	gfredericks	rhc: but at the very least you can push it up to clojars yourself
22:57	gfredericks	just be sure to change the maven group before you do
23:03	ibdknox	just clone it into a checkouts dir and you're good to go
23:05	gfredericks	yeah I guess that is easier
23:09	rhc	gfredericks: oh really? so there's no "owner" on clojars?
23:09	rhc	ibdknox: what do you mean?
23:10	ibdknox	rhc: if you create a checkouts/ in the root of your project
23:10	rhc	then just clone a repo in there a build a jar?
23:10	ibdknox	anything you put there will be added to the classpath. So if you git clone some project into that directory
23:10	ibdknox	you'll have access to it from your project
23:11	ibdknox	no jar-ing or anything needed
23:11	rhc	oh cool
23:11	rhc	perfect, i felt installing it was kinda kludgy
23:12	gfredericks	rhc: in clojars I think the only rule is the first person to add a jar to a particular group owns that group
23:12	gfredericks	which is why you should avoid pushing up somebody else's project to the same group that they specify in the project.clj
23:12	gfredericks	cuz they probably want it
23:13	rhc	yeah, thats what i figure
23:13	rhc	i was just using irclj for a learning project..
23:14	ibdknox	irclj is on clojars: http://clojars.org/irclj
23:15	rhc	yeah, but for some reason the snapshot there (1.5.0) is not equiv to the git repo
23:20	ibdknox	Raynes: ^
23:20	Raynes	Yeah, I'm in the middle of a rewrite.
23:21	ibdknox	ah :)
23:21	Raynes	The version in the repo might do what he wants, but it isn't complete.
23:21	rhc	oh hey Raynes :)
23:21	Raynes	No ctcp support at the very least.
23:21	rhc	yeah I read your comments on the github
23:21	Raynes	I've been too busy to work on it lately. :<
23:21	rhc	i figured if i ran into some problem maybe i could contribute as well
23:22	rhc	but for this crappy bot i don't need ctcp or anything really, so its no biggie, i was just glad to see any irc lib
23:22	Raynes	Sure. The core is there. The rest is probably just adding multimethods for things it doesn't support that you might need.
23:22	rhc	yeah, i saw that its nicely abstracted to add anything missing
23:24	Raynes	rhc: Want me to release an alpha for you to play with?
23:25	rhc	Raynes: nah don't worry about it, i was able to build from github
23:25	rhc	or is this alpha different from github?
23:25	Raynes	What's on Github is what I have.
23:26	Raynes	I'm not that mean. ;)
23:26	amalloy	wouldn't you rather use the last stable release than the github snapshot anyway?
23:26	rhc	ok, that's what I figured :)
23:26	Raynes	amalloy: No.
23:26	amalloy	given that what's on github is probably Raynes's half-baked ideas
23:26	amalloy	aw, okay&
23:27	rhc	amalloy: i picked the snapshot only because this is just some learning exercise
23:27	Raynes	The old version in its 'complete' state is disgusting enough that the new version trumps it in its incomplete state.
23:27	rhc	its irc, i can't be that serious, right? :P
23:27	Raynes	:p
23:29	Raynes	rhc: If you need anything, just ping me or shoot me an email.
23:30	rhc	Raynes: thanks!