#clojure – 2012-03-06

2012-03-06

00:03	TimMc	mac: "not for now", basically
00:03	TimMc	About what you'd expect.
00:25	JulioBarros	Hi, I'm trying to deploy an uber jar to a jetty server on ubuntu (to run it rather than lein run) and I'm getting an java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError at sun.reflect.NativeConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance0 when
00:25	JulioBarros	it gets to the part in my code where I try to use enlive.
00:25	JulioBarros	A basic hello world noir app works but my real app does not. Any ideas?
00:31	tmciver	$findfn [1 1 1 2 3 4] [[1 1 1] [2 3 4]]
00:31	lazybot	[]
00:32	scriptor	trying to cheat? :)
00:32	tmciver	Hell yeah? wanna help me?
00:32	scriptor	which problem was this again?
00:32	pyninja	hi, in ClojureScript, what's the equivalent of field.value? I tried (.value field) and variations...
00:34	tmciver	I'm trying to remember a function that splits a seq into two groups based on the result of a predicate changing
00:34	scriptor	tmciver: something like this? http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/split-with
00:35	scriptor	pyninja: what happens when you do (.value field)?
00:35	pyninja	scriptor: #<TypeError: Cannot call method 'value' of undefined>
00:36	pyninja	scriptor: it tries to call ns.field.value();
00:36	muhoo	gawd, i can't escape clojurescript.
00:36	tmciver	scriptor: that may work but it's not the function I was thinking of.
00:36	muhoo	i just started hacking on this beaglebone, and all the libraries for doing digital i/o on it are in.... javascript
00:37	muhoo	my goal was to use clojure to do some stuff on the beagle, since it runs java just fine
00:37	muhoo	but instead, the libraries i need are in fucking javascript. so it'll have to be clojurescript instead.
00:37	muhoo	running on node.
00:38	muhoo	or maybe in rhino, that might work.
00:39	scriptor	pyninja: have you tried different values for field?
00:40	pyninja	scriptor: actually, (. field -value) worked, but I don't understand why
00:42	scriptor	hmm, don't know it enough to remember if - has any special meaning
00:42	scriptor	does it just compile to _value?
00:55	muhoo	hehehe even easier, i can just read the data structures i need in as json , and make them into clojure data
00:56	muhoo	json on an embededed device. soon, i predict, all development will be web development.
00:57	dnolen	3
00:58	dnolen	oops
01:02	amalloy	pyninja: (.foo bar) or (. bar foo) is always a "method" call, (.-foo bar) or (. bar -foo) is always a property lookup
01:03	pyninja	amalloy: oh ok thanks
01:03	amalloy	on the jvm, there's a way to tell properties and methods apart, so (.foo bar) just Does What You Mean
01:03	pyninja	yeah
01:11	mindbender1	hi
01:49	gtuckerkellogg	have all of the clojure.contrib libs moved to individual repos?
02:39	_ulises	morning all
02:46	gtuckerkellogg	morning
02:46	scriptor	marnin
02:47	gtuckerkellogg	could someone tell me what the current status is with clojure.contrib?
02:48	_ulises	being ported still I believe
02:48	_ulises	gtuckerkellogg: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
02:48	gtuckerkellogg	oh, hey that's useful
02:49	_ulises	indeed
02:49	gtuckerkellogg	much more so than the circular lnks at http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/
02:49	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/ and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
02:49	gtuckerkellogg	well if it's out of date, i shouldn't need lazybot to tell me (IMHO)
02:49	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
02:50	_ulises	cool story indeed
03:04	tomoj	if I typed (def parse-parse [parse]), should I start over?
03:04	tomoj	well
03:05	tomoj	assume I already made it a defn :)
03:25	hsandhu	deploying a noir web app, any suggestions for daemonizing the instance (just using jetty as the container)
03:28	Fossi	hsandhu: there should be a way to package a war, most likely via lein
03:29	Fossi	i don't know noir at all, so ymmw
03:29	hsandhu	hmm, that could be one option if I was using tomcat for example...how about supervisord?
03:30	Fossi	you can use jetty as you would use tomcat
03:30	Fossi	never heard of supervisord
03:30	hsandhu	right, but the following will not create a daemon: "lein run"
03:55	tomoj	findfn "S=(NP=(DET=(the)N=(dog))VP=(V=(runs)))" {:S [{:NP [{:DET "the"} {:N "dog"}]} {:VP [{:V "runs"}]}]}
03:56	raek	tomoj: parsing natural language? :-)
03:56	tomoj	no, it's already parsed
03:56	tomoj	I just need to parse the parse
03:56	tomoj	:)
03:57	raek	https://gist.github.com/954222
03:58	tomoj	sweet
03:58	raek	(this was before core.logic got support for special DCG syntax9
03:58	raek	)
03:58	tomoj	I heard dnolen mention parsing but couldn't figure it out for myself
03:58	tomoj	ah, shucks
04:00	raek	my proessor in Formal Languages and Automata Theory used this sentence as an example of ambiguity in grammars...
04:01	raek	he telled the joked, said "and now an explanation of the joke", and showed two parse trees on the projector
04:04	tomoj	corenlp gets it right, but it also thinks "in the dressing room" is attached to the NP
04:29	sorenmacbeth	what the difference between #^ClassName and ^ClassName?
04:30	sorenmacbeth	I see both and no clear description of the difference or when to use which
04:31	ejackson	the former is deprecated
04:32	sorenmacbeth	ejackson: thanks, that explains it
04:34	G0SUB	datomic!
04:40	G0SUB	ejackson, PM?
04:40	ejackson	DATOMIC!
04:45	muhoo	VerifyError class org.codehaus.jackson.smile.SmileParser overrides final method getBinaryValue.(Lorg/codehaus/jackson/Base64Variant;)[B java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass1 (ClassLoader.java:-2)
04:46	muhoo	it does?
05:07	mtd	with clojure 1.3 on posix, is there a way to get all of clojure-contrib into the classpath? Does nobody really do that?
05:07	mtd	s/a way/a way without rebuilding all the jars oneself/
05:08	ejackson	with 1.3 there is no clojure-contrib
05:08	ejackson	you want to select the libs you want and put them into leiningen
05:08	ejackson	which will put them onto the CP for you
05:08	mtd	ejackson: right
05:09	mtd	ejackson: it's called clojure contrib here, FWIW http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib -- what's the right term?
05:09	mtd	ejackson: for repl use that's a bit of work, but not as much as compiling them all myself, sure.
05:09	mtd	ejackson: just wondering how people did it, thanks.
05:09	ejackson	you don't need to compile 'em, just let lein fetch the jars from clojars
05:09	mtd	ejackson: indeed
05:10	babilen	mtd: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go might help to select the right ones
05:10	mtd	ejackson: I was hoping for something I could stick in ~/bin/clj so that I could (use 'math.numeric-tower) and stuff without having to run through lein each time
05:10	mtd	babilen: thanks
05:11	mtd	ejackson: I can just have lein download them once or something
05:11	ejackson	mtd: i strongly recommend using lein for everything
05:11	mtd	ejackson: For pre-packaged stuff of course
05:11	ejackson	yes, lein will dl them and put them into ~/.m2/... and then into your project's ./lib
05:11	mtd	ejackson: I'm talking about one-off scripts / generic repl stuff
05:12	ejackson	even so, save yourself
05:12	ejackson	i mean, >lein new, >emacs project.clj, >lein repl.... hard to beat
05:12	mtd	ejackson: sorry, I don't think I'm being clear: I want to let something like lein decide for me what jar to dl to get math.numeric-tower
05:13	mtd	ejackson: ...I just don't think I need it to decide that that oftern
05:13	babilen	mtd: Take a look at https://github.com/mtyaka/lein-oneoff for oneoff scripts
05:13	mtd	ejackson: yeah but...I want oneoff scripts, not projects. I totally get what you're saying for projects, and I'm just being lazy
05:13	ejackson	mtd: lein should pull the deps for you
05:13	mtd	babilen: thanks, looks good
05:14	mtd	babilen: that's pretty much exactly what I want, thanks
05:14	ejackson	hm, numeric-tower is not in clojars, and its a maven thingy
05:14	mtd	ejackson: nooooo...hmm.
05:15	ejackson	so you'll have to build it w/ maven yourself
05:16	arbscht	hi from desktop
05:16	mtd	ejackson: awesome :) :/ thanks for saving me the headache of finding that out myself
05:16	ejackson	no sweat
05:17	babilen	mtd: AFAICT you can just include "[org.clojure/math.numeric-tower "0.0.1"]" in your project.clj and fetch it with "lein deps"
05:18	mtd	babilen: yeah, I'm cool with that usage of lein and deps...modulo ejackson's clojars comment re math.numeric-tower...
05:19	babilen	Yeah, but do not forget about http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Cnumeric-tower
05:19	mtd	babilen: it's just I don't have project.clj, just playing with oneoff scripts (in fact, I just wanted a nicer sqrt fn but will just use java.lang.Math/sqrt for now
05:19	mtd	babilen: ah, cool, didn't know that
05:19	ejackson	hahaha, def easier
05:20	raek	mtd: with lein-oneoff the "defdeps" form at the top of the file serves as a "script-local project.clj"
05:20	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
05:21	raek	so you'll have (defdeps [[org.clojure/math.numeric-tower "0.0.1"]]) at the op of your file
05:21	raek	*top
05:21	mtd	raek: yeah, thanks, that was exactly what I wanted...very useful, I think
05:21	raek	another approach is to have a "scratch project" whose project.clj include the libs you usually use
05:22	mtd	raek: yeah ISWYM about scratch project; that would work too
05:22	raek	you can run individual script files using lein "run -m the.name.space"
05:22	mtd	raek: gotcha, good to know
05:22	raek	if you provide a (defn -main [...] ...) function in that namespace
05:23	raek	mtd: yeah, the install libs globally and run a file approach is perhaps more convenient for one-off scripts
05:23	mtd	raek: gotcha
05:24	raek	mtd: but Leinginen has higher ambitions. you need something like projects in the end for anything that becomes big
05:24	mtd	raek: definitely...I appreciate (in many senses) that goal, and it's quite easy to use.
05:25	raek	AFAICT, most other "dynamic" lagnuages have developed something similar to the proejct approach (e.g. virtualenv in python and rvm in ruby)
05:26	mtd	raek: yeah, though I never needed that level of flexibility in python; if I did, I would just stick the offending (older-version, usually) module in the project's pythonpath.
05:26	mtd	raek: can't speak for ruby. The set-of-jars-per-project really feels like overkill coming from python world, but I understand the idea from a defensive / deployment perspective.
05:27	raek	I know that I don't have to convince you, but here is the rationale in case you want to read more: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
05:28	mtd	raek: I buy the arguments for repeatability in theory, and have never needed them in practice (though I of course understand tons of people would). I'm just lucky :).
05:28	mtd	raek: will read that in detail, thanks
05:29	raek	but it can be nice that you can still clone a two year old project on github and run lein deps and it still works
05:30	mtd	raek: indeed, good point
05:30	raek	immutability in build systems ftw!
05:34	mtd	heh
05:36	mtd	raek: that is a good read, not least for the implicit survey of current-best-way-of-doing-X, for X in commonly-needed-thing. Thanks.
06:36	mtd	apologies for the vagueness, but is there a python dir() equivalent for the clojure REPL? I want something like clojure.contrib.repl_utils for clojure 1.3 that works both for java objects and clojure <waves hands> objects.
06:36	mtd	(it's basically unanswered for 1.3, AFAICS)
06:37	clgv	mtd: you can get the code from the old contrib if it wasnt migrated to a new library
06:38	mtd	clgv: sure - was hoping someone had already done it, but will go that route if not
06:38	mtd	clgv: dir() is super useful in python repl: applicable to everything, always present (as opposed to documentation)
06:39	clgv	mtd: hm yeah something like that for namespaces would be great
06:39	mtd	doc, dir, pr, clojure.reflect/reflect, etc.
06:40	mtd	clgv: yeah - clojure.repl/dir is a good start, but wish it took a whole bunch of types besides symbols-of-namespaces
06:40	clgv	mtd: ok, clojure.reflect/reflect does not print useful output ;)
06:40	mtd	clgv: indeed :)
06:41	mtd	clgv: (map prn (get (reflect f) :members)) is a bit more useful
06:41	mtd	(if I make my terminal font about 1pt :))
06:42	clgv	well they should have included show then^^
06:42	mtd	clgv: yeah, wish they had (in clojure.repl, I guess)
06:43	mtd	(sorry for spamming the channel with newbie stuff)
06:45	clgv	what inspect did you use?
06:46	mtd	clgv: (use 'clojure.inspect) --> #<inspector$inspect clojure.inspector$inspect@1bfd9cd5>
06:47	mtd	clgv: oops, clojure.inspector
06:47	clgv	ah that one improved
06:48	clgv	hmm I wonder what the buttons are for
06:49	mtd	clgv: they don't do much in the few things I've inspected, yeah
06:49	clgv	mtd: I built my own inspect^^
06:49	clgv	but it needs to get more user friendly for customizing display^^
06:51	clgv	mtd: seems those buttons are for decoration only, yet ;)
06:51	clgv	they have no handler in the source I got
06:52	mtd	clgv: ah
07:38	Frozenlock	I'm trying to get clojure-jack-in to work on win7. I get this error: "Could not start swank server: '$SHELL'..." I think I need to add something to my environment variable, but what?
09:09	antares_	hi. how can I distinguish between maps and functions in a protocol w/o using all specific map implementation classes?
09:10	clgv	antares_: via 'map? and 'fn? - if that doesnt help you you have to explain in more detail what you really want to do.
09:11	antares_	clgv: those functions won't work for protocols
09:11	antares_	clgv: you got the idea right but I am trying to do this with protocols
09:11	antares_	so I have to provide types
09:11	bsteuber	clojure.lang.IPersistentMap ?
09:11	antares_	alternatively, is there a core function that returns "type" I can cond on?
09:11	clgv	antares_: well then I dont understand what you want to do^^
09:11	antares_	bsteuber: yes but maps are also functions
09:12	antares_	so I am getting IFn matching some of the time and IPersistentMap matching other times
09:12	antares_	clgv: I am trying to write a protocol function that can work with both maps and functions
09:12	antares_	but maps are also functions
09:12	clgv	so whats the problem?
09:13	bsteuber	IFn shouldn't match when you have implemented it for IPersistentMap
09:13	clgv	make (minimal) examples - they always help to understand^^
09:13	bsteuber	because the most concrete type should be matching
09:13	bsteuber	and I
09:14	bsteuber	IPersistenMap should be a subtype of IFn
09:14	antares_	clgv: sometimes compiler seems to pick on one implementation (tests pass), sometimes the other (obscure failures)
09:14	bsteuber	at least in clj, different story with cljs
09:14	antares_	bsteuber: yes, and that's exactly the issue
09:14	bsteuber	antares_: so you do cljs?
09:14	antares_	bsteuber: no I don't
09:15	antares_	clgv: https://gist.github.com/035d79153dd3781fd179
09:15	jsabeaudry	When working with gloss, if I have a prefix indicating the length of a string, is the proper way to do this a (repeated (string :length 1) :prefix :byte) ?
09:15	antares_	roughly half of the time I am getting obscure runtime exceptions about APersistentMap being invoked with 0 arguments
09:18	antares_	clgv: listing exact map implementation classes seems to help, I need to run tests 100 times to tell for sure :(
09:18	bsteuber	antares_: that's really weird, I can confirm this behavior
09:18	bsteuber	maybe write an issue
09:19	hiredman	emacs -nw /var/log/emacs.log
09:19	bsteuber	or there's just something I don't understand about protocols yet ^^
09:19	hiredman	whoops, pardon me
09:19	clgv	antares_: you can inspect the map belonging to the protocol. maybe you spot something odd in there
09:19	antares_	clgv: how can I do it?
09:19	antares_	(println [proto name]) ?
09:20	antares_	bsteuber: ok, will do
09:20	clgv	antares_: it is bound to the name of the protocol
09:21	antares_	clgv: yeah I figured it out. Awesome, thanks. I will play with it a bit more and file a ticket.
09:22	Frozenlock	I'm trying to get clojure-jack-in to work on win7. I get this error: "Could not start swank server: '$SHELL'..." I think I need to add something to my environment variable, but what?
09:22	bsteuber	antares_: actually, all the maps I tried trigger IFn
09:23	antares_	bsteuber: ok
09:23	dnolen	antares_: there is no way to accomplish what you want w/ protocols
09:23	antares_	bsteuber: so should I list implementation classes instead?
09:23	antares_	dnolen: even if I use specific classes and not interfaces?
09:24	dnolen	antares_: oh sorry, yes if you specify specific classes.
09:24	antares_	dnolen: I can rewrite this using multimethods. Is there a good way to get :map, :fn and similar kewords for a data structure, using some core functions?
09:24	antares_	dnolen: ok, I think that will work. Hopefully 1.4 won't introduce new classes :)
09:25	clgv	antares_: you dont need keywords for multimethods. you can use types there as well
09:26	antares_	clgv: hm, yeah, but it won't be any different from protocols
09:26	antares_	hm, but the comparison will be exact, right?
09:26	clgv	multimethods use 'isa?
09:26	antares_	I see
09:26	antares_	ok folks, thanks for your help
09:27	clgv	&(isa? clojure.lang.IFn {})
09:27	lazybot	⇒ false
09:27	clgv	&(isa? {} clojure.lang.IFn)
09:27	lazybot	⇒ false
09:27	raek	&(isa? clojure.lang.IFn (class {}))
09:27	lazybot	⇒ false
09:28	TimMc	isa? is backwards
09:28	raek	&(isa? (class {}) clojure.lang.IFn)
09:28	lazybot	⇒ true
09:28	TimMc	(relative to instance?)
09:30	antares_	dnolen: if I use AFunction or RestFn, will it cover all functions (that return true for clojure.core/fn?)
09:31	dnolen	antares_: you're running into the problem where things are overlapping w/ protocols. one possible workaround? let IFn be handled in the default case.
09:31	dnolen	so first match all the types, then in the default case test for IFn and handle it there.
09:32	antares_	dnolen: the problem is, I have Object implementation already and I really need it
09:32	dnolen	antares_: so keep it, doesn't stop you from handling IFn.
09:33	antares_	dnolen: but won't function just match Object impl?
09:33	TimMc	Nothing stopping you from using instance? at that point is there?
09:34	dnolen	(extend-type Object PFoo (bar [x] (if (fn? x) fn-case-expr object-case-expr)))
09:35	antares_	dnolen: ok, thanks. It would work for me, too.
09:35	antares_	dnolen: I think clojure.lang.AFunction worked
09:38	dnolen	antares_: interesting, good to know if true.
09:38	antares_	dnolen: I am trying with AFunction and IPersistentMap
09:39	antares_	seems to work, 10 passes in a row
09:41	dnolen	antares_: looking at the JVM source, that looks right to me.
09:42	antares_	dnolen: it better be right, I already tweeted about it :D
09:48	bsteuber	good to know extend doesn't handle interface hierarchies
09:54	uvtc	Hi #clojure. I just noticed that this page http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Moving+clojure.org+to+Confluence indicates that clojure.org was at one point going to be switched over to using Confluence.
09:55	uvtc	but evidently clojure.org uses wikispaces.
09:55	uvtc	Also, the link to "demark" on the Confluence page is broken...
09:55	uvtc	Just curious what the history is here, and what plans there are.
09:58	uvtc	... if there are any plans, anyway.
10:01	stuartsierra	no firm plans
10:01	stuartsierra	clojure.org is a mess
10:01	uvtc	In what way? In that it requires updates?
10:05	bsteuber	how does lein-clojurescript deal with macros?
10:05	bsteuber	or is there a better cljs plugin?
10:07	uvtc	stuartsierra: Ok. Found this http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/clojure.org+TODO+list
10:12	bsteuber	ah I think it was lein-cljsbuild
10:28	jsabeaudry	What is the use for merge? Isn't conj enough?
10:31	TimMc	jsabeaudry: I give you two or more maps. Now merge them with conj.
10:31	hiredman	/win 15
10:32	jsabeaudry	,(conj {:a 1} {:b 2} {:c 3})
10:32	clojurebot	{:c 3, :b 2, :a 1}
10:33	gtrak`	,(conj {:a 1 :b 2} {:c 3 :d 4})
10:33	clojurebot	{:d 4, :c 3, :a 1, :b 2}
10:33	gtrak`	hmm, why does that make sense?
10:33	jsabeaudry	TimMc, I just did?
10:34	TimMc	gtrak`: It doesn't.
10:34	TimMc	,(conj {:a 1 :b 2} {:c 3 :d 4} {:e 5 :f 6})
10:34	clojurebot	{:e 5, :f 6, :d 4, :c 3, :a 1, ...}
10:34	gtrak`	i would have thought it would work with entries but not full maps
10:34	TimMc	&(conj {:a 1 :b 2} {:c 3 :d 4} {:e 5 :f 6})
10:34	lazybot	⇒ {:e 5, :f 6, :d 4, :c 3, :a 1, :b 2}
10:35	TimMc	Ugh, this is that stupid special-casing.
10:35	TimMc	&(conj {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 3 :d 4} {:a 5 :f 6})
10:35	lazybot	⇒ {:f 6, :d 4, :a 5, :b 2}
10:35	TimMc	jsabeaudry: Carry on then. -.-
10:35	uvtc	,(into {:a 1 :b 2} {:c 3 :d 4})
10:35	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2, :c 3, :d 4}
10:36	gtrak`	into makes more sense
10:36	uvtc	I was going to ask what bots are on this channel, and I see there's 2 (at least). What's the difference between clojurebot and lazybot?
10:36	jsabeaudry	TimMc, I'm not sure what the conclusion is here? conj works as merge but it shouldn't so I should use merge and not rely on the current behavior?
10:37	gtrak`	jsabeaudry, relying on the special-case is a form of obfuscation
10:37	TimMc	uvtc: Names, features, security, maintainers...
10:38	gtrak`	you should do the thing that matches your intent most closely, unless there's a performance win or something (there probably isn't)?
10:38	TimMc	uvtc: Use clojurebot when lazybot complains that you're trying to hax it.
10:38	jsabeaudry	gtrak, got it, thanks!
10:38	uvtc	TimMc: Hah. :) Thanks.
10:38	TimMc	uvtc: But lazybot is generally faster and smarter.
10:38	miltondsilva	jsabeaudry: if this works (conj [] [1] [2] [3]) why shouldn't your case?
10:39	TimMc	&(conj [] [1] [2] [3])
10:39	lazybot	⇒ [[1] [2] [3]]
10:39	TimMc	miltondsilva: Did you want that, or [1 2 3]?
10:39	gtrak`	that's what I would have expected
10:39	miltondsilva	oh I see what you mean
10:39	gtrak`	since maps are seqs of entries, the map-case doesn't make sense
10:40	DrBenway_	,(conj nil {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 3 :d 4} {:a 5 :f 6})
10:40	clojurebot	({:a 5, :f 6} {:a 3, :d 4} {:a 1, :b 2})
10:41	DrBenway_	,(merge nil {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 3 :d 4} {:a 5 :f 6})
10:41	clojurebot	{:f 6, :d 4, :b 2, :a 5}
10:41	DrBenway_	big difference in behavivor :-)
10:41	gtrak`	,(conj {} {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 3 :d 4} {:a 5 :f 6})
10:41	clojurebot	{:f 6, :d 4, :b 2, :a 5}
10:41	TimMc	THat's right, the nil base case is completely different.
10:42	gtrak`	,(conj {} :a 1 :b 2)
10:42	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword>
10:42	TimMc	The first arg's .cons method controls the behavior, and if it is nil, an empty seq is substituted in.
10:42	gtrak`	,(conj {} [:a 1] [:b 2])
10:42	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
10:43	TimMc	Read PersistentHashMap's .cons method, it's fucked up.
10:43	TimMc	(Possibly actually APersistentMap)
10:47	gtrak`	,(conj {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
10:47	clojurebot	{[:a 1] [:b 2]}
10:47	gtrak`	,(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
10:47	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
10:52	beardmigration	Big thank you to @babilen and @vijaykiran for help in getting me up and running with emacs a couple of days ago.
10:53	beardmigration	Now I've found time to do a bit of clojure I have another newbie problem with classpaths and name spaces...
10:53	beardmigration	... I want to set up a leiningen project, write a couple of functions and unit tests for them.
10:53	beardmigration	However nothing seems to want to compile.
10:53	beardmigration	Any suggestions?
10:54	vijaykiran	beardmigration: hi there ..
10:54	amro	what's the error?
10:54	uvtc	What have you done so far?
10:55	vijaykiran	may be you want to paste your project.clj - somewhere
10:55	beardmigration	From the command line: lein compile No namespaces to :aot compile listed in project.clj.
10:55	uvtc	beardmigration: you might paste code to https://refheap.com/paste
10:55	clgv	beardmigration: try "lein uberjar" if you want a standalone jar of your project
10:56	neotyk	beardmigration: lein test
10:56	neotyk	don't lein compile if you don't have to
10:56	devn	kibit is awesome.
10:57	devn	:X
10:57	neotyk	devn: are you aware of hubot?
10:58	neotyk	how cool would it be if kibit could derive the rules from clojure source code?
10:59	gtrak`	kibit = awesome
10:59	beardmigration	lein test output - stacktrace starting with: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: namespace 'pruefungen.core' not found after loading '/pruefungen/core'
11:00	gtrak`	beardmigration, did you do 'lein new' to create your project or set it up manually?
11:01	beardmigration	<gtrak'> lein new.
11:02	beardmigration	I'm confused as to the role of two core.clj files - one in the testing tree and one in the src.
11:02	TimMc	beardmigration: The test one should test the src one.
11:03	TimMc	beardmigration: By the way, "core" is just a suggestion -- you can name it anything.
11:03	owain`	Hey all. I'm interested to know if anyone has any experience in building large web apps in Clojure. I've built a few smaller apps but wondered if there are any example of big ish apps out there.
11:03	beardmigration	So must the name of the test file match the file it unit tests?
11:04	owain`	I'd love to do more and more work in clojure and know how to do mvc from scratch but some examples would be really useful to learn from.
11:04	TimMc	beardmigration: Nope. (But the namespace must match the file name and path.)
11:04	vijaykiran	no, it doesn't. You can put the test anywhere you like.
11:05	gtrak`	owain`, check out noir and korma
11:05	beardmigration	Ah that's the nub of it - how must the namespace match the paths?
11:05	owain`	thanks. I've looked at both. Noir is excellent
11:05	Vinzent	owain`, also, take a look at https://github.com/duck1123/jiksnu
11:05	owain`	Just wondering more about structuring things like how you'd do MVC in rails or Django.
11:05	owain`	Or does that not apply so much in a functional language?
11:06	owain`	Vinzent: not seen that before. thanks
11:06	gtrak`	mvc is a little different in functional-land, really I think no-one agrees on what MVC should be anyway
11:06	owain`	That's kind of what I was wondering.
11:06	duck1123	Ciste is the MVC part. Jiksnu is more of an implementation of Ciste
11:06	owain`	Does MVC matter as much in a language like Clojure. I'd LOVE to do all my web work in Clojure.
11:07	TimMc	beardmigration: - becomes _, . becomes /
11:07	DrBenway_	beardmigration, if you have any clj files in src or test paths where the path dosnt mach the (ns or have no (ns ... ) - you gets relly wired errors messages from lein
11:07	TimMc	Blame the JVM for those restrictions.
11:07	gtrak`	owain`, separation of concerns matters, but a controller can be a namespace instead of an object or something, for example
11:08	owain`	I'm still reaching for ROR for apps if I need things doing quickly. This is mainly becuase it's just easier to do. If I was doing a startup now I'd like to use Clojure ratherthan ror
11:08	TimMc	beardmigration: ./src/foo/bar/baz.clj has a namespace of foo.bar.baz (if src is the source root)
11:08	uvtc	Was just reading http://clojure.org/state and would like to confirm some terminology: The term "object" is pretty generic and may refer to values (that is, your usual immutable garden variety things such as numbers, strings, functions, data structures, etc.) or "object" may refer to "reference types" (Vars, Refs, Agents, or Atoms --- which are mutable). Correct?
11:08	owain`	This was the only really good example I've seen. https://github.com/abedra/shouter
11:09	gtrak`	owain`, conjure was an attempt to be like rails, but I don't know how many folks actually use it
11:09	owain`	Yeah I didn't like the look of it.
11:09	owain`	Felt too "big"
11:09	owain`	Not sure how to describe it. Just seemed wrong for Clojure.
11:10	owain`	Certainly interesting.
11:10	beardmigration	<TimMc> Does that mean that ./test/pruefungen/test/test_core.clj should have ns test.pruefungen.test.test_core?
11:10	TimMc	uvtc: I havne't heard the latter sense before.
11:10	TimMc	beardmigration: Drop the first "test."
11:10	vijaykiran	and I think test_core should be test-core
11:10	vijaykiran	at the end
11:11	gtuckerkellogg	can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong here? http://pastebin.com/YhX8JpUm
11:11	TimMc	^ yeah, hyphen in the ns
11:11	beardmigration	<TimMc> so the test directory is included in the classpath?
11:11	vijaykiran	I'd leave -/_ for now - just name it core.clj
11:11	uvtc	TimMc: Vars, Refs, Agents, and Atoms are mutable, correct?
11:11	TimMc	beardmigration: right
11:11	clgv	gtuckerkellogg: you are closing the file from with-open before the lazy-seq from map is evaluated
11:12	TimMc	uvtc: yup
11:12	beardmigration	<vijaykiran> yep I'd noticed some problems with _ being translated to - or vice versa - is it recommended not to use these in filenames?
11:12	TimMc	uvtc: "reference types"
11:12	gtuckerkellogg	am I?
11:12	gtuckerkellogg	huh
11:12	duck1123	owain`, I would suggest you check out Ciste, if you're looking for MVC.
11:12	clgv	gtuckerkellogg: it'll work if you put a 'doall in front of the map
11:12	gtuckerkellogg	thanks!
11:12	vijaykiran	beardmigration: the only caveat is _ in the file name means - in namespace .. but you can safely ignore it for now.
11:13	uvtc	TimMc, I think I saw that term in Joy of Clojure ... one sec...
11:13	gtuckerkellogg	yay! and so it did, thank you clgv
11:13	vijaykiran	beardmigration: since _ means something diff in clojure :)
11:14	beardmigration	<vijaykiran> yes of course.
11:14	beardmigration	Ok thanks for the input - let me try it out...
11:14	uvtc	TimMc: Yes, here it is, section 11.2 of JoC: "Clojure currently provides four different reference types to aide in concurrent programming: Refs, Agents, Atoms, and Vars."
11:15	gtrak`	owain`, also this guy: https://github.com/seancorfield/fw1-clj
11:15	gtrak`	they use it for real stuff
11:16	owain`	gtrac: Thanks. Looks good. What I was looking for.
11:16	uvtc	TimMc: my hunch is that the word "object" is simply overloaded, and somewhere along the line I thought it was equivalent to "value".
11:16	owain`	I was wondering how many people used a hybrid approach like Flightcaster where all the front end would be done in something like ror etc and the complex stuff done in Clojure.
11:17	uvtc	TimMc: Thanks.
11:17	gtrak`	owain`, I think twitter does stuff like that, slowly replacing their ruby backend with java/scala/clojure
11:18	owain`	I kind of like that idea. Splitting up into smaller apps that do specific things.
11:18	gtrak`	http://www.infoq.com/articles/twitter-java-use
11:18	owain`	I heard Etsy.com use Clojure/Scala as well. Might be wrong.
11:20	beardmigration	I'm making progress - at least lein seems to want to try to run some tests. However it doesn't recognise the assertions in this code: (ns pruefungen.test.test-core (use: pruefungen.core) (use: clojure.test)) (deftest core-test (is (= hello "Hello World!")) (is (= (hello "thing") "Hello thing!")))
11:20	owain`	Maybe that's a good way to go. Smaller apps working together rather than one giant monolithic framework.
11:20	duck1123	it all depends on how much you can break off into smaller tasks and how many queues you have
11:21	uvtc	beardmigration, just saw a blog post that might be useful to you: http://reminiscential.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/writing-a-simple-clojure-library/
11:22	beardmigration	Thanks <uvtc> - that post seems to be at my level!
11:23	gtrak`	meh, no sense in overengineering everything upfront, I think FP makes it easier to refactor out into services later
11:24	babilen	beardmigration: You are most welcome -- Great that you got it working! :)
11:24	uvtc	beardmigration, sure, yw
11:25	uvtc	owain`, Regarding etsy.com, from the job postings I've seen, they don't mention explicitly Clojure ("Our current systems run PHP, Java, Python, Ruby, Solr/Lucene, Postgres, MySQL, and more.")
11:25	raek	beardmigration: :use, not use:
11:26	beardmigration	babilen: Erm not quite unfortunately - lein doesn't see my assertions in my testing file, for some reason. I've just put the use: namespaces in square brackets but that doesn't seem to help.
11:26	beardmigration	Suspect I still have a classpath / namespace problem.
11:27	babilen	beardmigration: See raek's remark
11:27	owain`	uvtc: I think this bit was done in Clojure. http://www.etsy.com/search?search_submit=&q=
11:27	vijaykiran	beardmigration: see what raek said (:use ....) not (use: ...)
11:27	owain`	Remember seeing it on HN I think. Hang on.
11:27	owain`	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1453259
11:27	owain`	They probably use a ton of stuff by the look of it.
11:28	owain`	PHP, Java, Python and Ruby? Why would you use so many languages? Haha.
11:29	dnolen	owain`: from what I hear they're pulling back on the number of languages they use.
11:29	uvtc	owain`, Ah, neat. Thanks.
11:29	hiredman	I wonder if I could interest them in my lisp->php compiler
11:31	langmartin	I have a java interop question, I'm trying to use a netty http client and I can't access some static class fields (which are just constants, as far as I can tell). (ns ... (:import org.jboss.netty.handler.codec.http.HttpHeaders)) is fine, it's meant to have a Names and Values static subclass with a bunch of static fields in each
11:32	gtrak`	hiredman, gross :-)
11:32	langmartin	Names and Values are both not found, and can't be imported directly. any help would be greatly appreciated
11:32	owain`	gtrack: +1 haha
11:32	babilen	beardmigration: Actually make that: (ns pruefungen.test.test-core (:use [pruefungen.core]))
11:33	hiredman	langmartin: you have to use the jvm class names
11:33	beardmigration	<facepalm!> Ahem - yes I should have paid attention to the syntax colouring. That's great - thanks all assertions are failing and passing as they should.
11:33	beardmigration	Is there a better workflow to test just the file you have edited in emacs rather than go out the shell?
11:33	hiredman	langmartin: javac turns inner classes into like HttpHeaders$Names
11:34	langmartin	hiredman: no shit! that goes on my newbie notes page then
11:34	dnolen	clojurebot: ~max
11:34	clojurebot	Pardon?
11:35	dnolen	~max
11:35	clojurebot	Most users ever in #clojure: 404
11:35	hiredman	~max users
11:35	clojurebot	Pardon?
11:35	uvtc	~current
11:35	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
11:35	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
11:35	clojurebot	you cut me deep, man.
11:35	vijaykiran	404 :)
11:35	babilen	beardmigration: Well, I like lazytest -- https://github.com/stuartsierra/lazytest -- But there are good alternatives such as midje too. Also a number of testing related leiningen plugins are listed on https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Plugins
11:37	stuartsierra	Midje is under more active development than Lazytest right now.
11:37	babilen	stuartsierra: I still like lazytest -- Sad to hear that midje is under more active development (which probably means that lazytest is not)
11:38	jsabeaudry	&(bytes [1 2 3 4])
11:38	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to [B
11:38	langmartin	hiredman: thanks so much, works like a char
11:38	langmartin	m
11:38	stuartsierra	babilen: I wrote Lazytest, but have not had time to work on it in the past year or so.
11:38	babilen	stuartsierra: But you are right -- Given that the last commit was one year ago, I probably shouldn't recommend it anymore.
11:39	Vinzent	is there topological sort implementation somewhere in standart lib?
11:39	beardmigration	'lein test' is somewhat slow for optimal test integration.
11:39	hiredman	"optimal test integration"
11:42	beardmigration	I suppose that would be a fast test runner integrated into the editor. But look I'm being picky - it's all new and exciting. I'll have a look at midje.
11:43	babilen	beardmigration: https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Midje-mode
11:43	gtrak`	midje uses core.unify, maybe it can use core.logic or does it matter?
11:43	owain`	babilen: that looks good. Thanks.
11:44	beardmigration	babilen: even better an emacs minor mode!
11:44	mdeboard	So, funny question: Is anyone here going to be at Pycon
11:45	gtrak`	mdeboard, I did pycon audio/visual in 2010, I'm sad I can't go, but I'm going to clojure/west :-)
11:45	mdeboard	Yeah unfortunately I'm a single parent otherwise I'd just stay out there :(
11:45	mdeboard	Well, "unfortunately my responsibilities prevent me from staying out there", not unfortunately @ single parent
11:46	beardmigration	Thanks again to all - I'm looking forward to writing something more substantial.
11:46	gtrak`	mdeboard, apparently stallman's giving a lecture, too
11:46	mdeboard	ya
11:49	gtrak`	is there any big news in python anyway? I lost interest a couple years back
11:52	mdeboard	gtrak`: Not really in my world of web dev. Nothign I personally get too excited about anyway.
11:52	mdeboard	(though admittedly it does take a lot to get me excited)
11:52	gtrak`	clojure stole my heart :-)
11:52	mdeboard	yeah
11:53	mdeboard	well, I'll probably be primarily python for a few years but clojure/scala/anything else is a great way to get better at programming in general
11:54	gtrak`	I think there's a lot of value in writing equivalent code in different methods/paradigms/languages
11:55	uvtc	gtrak, I hear about PyPy making strides. Actually, to keep things on-topic, I read about a Clojure impl in Python a few days ago: https://github.com/halgari/clojure-py
11:55	gtrak`	yea, pypy was always interesting to me
11:55	gtrak`	unladen swallow died unfortunately
11:55	alexbaranosky	gtrak, I agree -- the best way to see alternative design solutions is to be able to come up with multiple isomorphic solutions
11:56	alexbaranosky	then you can compare and contrast their relative merits
11:57	gtrak`	alexbaranosky, on an even deeper level, you can just see the code is equivalent... i.e. static functions with a lookup-table on the first-arg vs polymorphic virtual functions
11:57	gtrak`	refactoring is a big part of what I do every day
11:57	lucian	gtrak`: i'd say unladen fortunately died :)
11:57	alexbaranosky	gtrak, that's the kind of thing I'm thinking, yeah!
11:58	geoffeg_c	with "lein deploy", it should push into the maven repo defined in :deploy-repositories in project.clj and with the auth defined in ~/.lein/profiles.clj?
11:58	geoffeg_c	lein doesn't seem to be picking up the auth definition in profiles.clj
11:59	martintrojer	So, who's gonna start an open-source datomic compatible project? The gauntlet is thrown...
11:59	gtrak`	alexbaranosky, making code look like what it is :-)
12:15	geoffeg_c	is there some full example of a profiles.clj file i can read? lein doesn't seem to be picking mine up
12:16	geoffeg_c	i can't find docs on what the file needs to contain
12:16	xeqi	what version of lein are you using?
12:17	geoffeg_c	1.6.2
12:17	xeqi	profiles new for 2.0
12:18	sorenmacbeth	geoffeg: you have to use 1.7.0 to use ~/.lein/profiles.clj
12:18	xeqi	*are new
12:18	sorenmacbeth	xeqi: they are in 1.7.0 as well I believe
12:19	geoffeg_c	ok, i'll upgrade
12:24	geoffeg_c	ok. i upgraded to 1.7.0 and it does not appear to be reading profiles.clj. is there an example profiles.clj i can see?
12:25	TimMc	geoffeg_c: Yes, in the lein repository there is a sample project.clj.
12:25	TimMc	erf, misread
12:26	geoffeg_c	yep, but i can't find an example profiles.clj
12:30	`fogus	Anyone have insight on how to get lein to spit out a different directory for the pom resources element?
12:30	kij	Hey, is there any guides how to do logins and security in clojurescriptone ?
12:30	xeqi	profiles are new in lein 2 which doesn't have a release yet, requires running from master; see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/1.x for the 1.7 readme
12:32	xeqi	`fogus: have you tried :resources-path ?
12:33	`fogus	xeqi: Oh! You're supposed to spell that properly!?! ;-)
12:33	`fogus	Thank you
12:34	`fogus	technomancy: Lein 3.0 feature request: DWIM :p
12:35	sorenmacbeth	xeqi: I'm using profiles just fine in lein 1.7.0
12:36	technomancy	there's a plugin back-porting profiles to 1.x, but it won't work out of the box
12:37	technomancy	it's also a bit behind the profiles implementation in lein 2
12:40	gtrak`	kij, there's sandbar for a clj solution, i think some folks use spring security for more comprehensive stuff
12:40	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: isn't profile.clj the recommended way to do site-wide plugin handling in 1.7?
12:40	sorenmacbeth	profiles
12:40	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: no, the back-porting of profiles to 1.x is kind of experimental
12:40	technomancy	great if it works for you though =D
12:41	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: seems to be :p
12:41	technomancy	I don't think I've actually told anyone about it, so congratulations on discovering the easter egg =)
12:41	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: though I did have to run `lein plugin install` still
12:42	sorenmacbeth	so maybe I just thought it was working
12:45	kij	gtrak`: thanks!
12:53	geoffeg_c	how do i get "lein deploy" to also install the pom ("lein install" generates it)?
12:55	Licenser	did you ever notice that if you have the wrong font pom and porn look very much the same?
12:56	geoffeg_c	i hadn't previously
12:56	geoffeg_c	how can i install porn in maven?
12:57	eggsby	lol Licenser :D
12:57	eggsby	that keming D:
12:57	sorenmacbeth	geoffeg_c: mvn porn:bow-chica-bow-wow
12:58	geoffeg_c	i'm amused that there are so very few discussions about deploying a jar to a maven repo.. apparently most clojure developers don't work in mutli-developer teams.. or if they do, they don't use maven
12:58	Licenser	now you guys have something to talk about that should end the quiet
12:58	Licenser	gtuckerkellogg there is lein-clojars?
12:59	Licenser	geoffeg_c I ment
12:59	TimMc	geoffeg_c: As in, deploying to a local nexus?
12:59	sorenmacbeth	geoffeg_c: see http://clojars.org
12:59	geoffeg_c	yea, but my employer has their own private maven repo (artifactory), i don't want to push to clojars..
13:00	technomancy	geoffeg_c: "lein deploy" should get the pom installed too; I've never heard of that failing
13:00	technomancy	it sounds like you may have found a bug?
13:00	geoffeg_c	hmmm, maybe artifactory is being stupid.. it seems to really enjoy doing stupid thjings
13:00	Licenser	stop saying pom … please?
13:00	geoffeg_c	technomancy: i'll look into what the problem with the pom is
13:01	technomancy	geoffeg_c: I try to encourage people to use private s3 buckets for private repositories since there's no maintenance burden, but if you've already got an archiva set up that should work
13:03	geoffeg_c	technomancy: hmm, that's an interesting idea.. but how will lein handle finding the jars i push up to s3? in other words: i have two projects we've developed in-house, one depends on the other and we have multiple developers (5-6) working on it
13:03	geoffeg_c	can i tell lein to go look in s3 for deps?
13:03	technomancy	just add a repository like "s3p://my-secret-bucket/releases" to :repositories in project.clj
13:03	technomancy	and be sure the s3-wagon-private plugin is in :plugins
13:03	geoffeg_c	i like this idea :)
13:14	technomancy	would people use the backported profiles plugin if I updated it?
13:14	technomancy	I'm hesitant to just because I want people to try out lein 2, but that's selfish of me =)
13:15	technomancy	`fogus: thanks for getting that pushed out
13:18	hiredman	technomancy: if I had the time to do new things I would just move to lein 2
13:19	technomancy	yeah, with the migration path being helped by lein-precate I think backporting features is probably unnecessary
13:20	`fogus	technomancy: Thanks for the legwork on lein-marg
13:34	mrBliss	`fogus: I spotted a small mistake in your announcement about Marginalia (I use it a lot, thanks!) on the ML: `(def a-var value "The docstring")` should be `(def a-var "The docstring" value)`
13:35	`fogus	mrBliss: Thanks. Will fix now.
13:37	mrBliss	`fogus: that's quick! Thanks again for your hard work.
13:38	`fogus	Thank you
13:38	technomancy	`fogus: oh hum... marginalia needs to run in-process, doesn't it?
13:38	technomancy	I mean in the project's process rather than Leiningen's?
13:38	`fogus	ja
13:39	technomancy	yeah I think I may have goofed on the lein2 support; I must have only been testing it with 1.7 =(
13:41	technomancy	herp && derp
13:41	`fogus	DO'ETH!
13:45	technomancy	`fogus: I've got a fix
13:45	technomancy	if you want to do an 0.7.1 of lein-marg alone I'll update the docs to reflect it
13:45	technomancy	sorry =\
13:46	`fogus	Nah, it's been ~11 minutes. I'll repush v0.7.0
13:47	technomancy	sneaky
13:48	technomancy	pull-req'd
14:04	technomancy	is he still around?
14:05	dnolen	perhaps reincarnated as Cedric Greevey
14:05	technomancy	wouldn't surprise me
14:06	`fogus	There is no chance that they are different people
14:07	TimMc	Who is this, some kind of complainer? troll? agent provacateur?
14:07	`fogus	You have no chance to survive make your time
14:10	emezeske	For great justice!
14:10	dgrnbrg	How do I split a string on a character?
14:10	dgrnbrg	I have a dot-separated string, and I'm trying to use .split, but I'm not getting the result I expect
14:11	dgrnbrg	nvm
14:11	dgrnbrg	I forgot . & regex interaction
14:11	technomancy	for some reason .split uses faux-regexes
14:11	technomancy	it's pretty silly
14:12	technomancy	I guess that's a coping mechanism for working in a language that doesn't have literal syntax for regexes
14:16	dgrnbrg	technomancy: i think they're real regexes
14:16	dgrnbrg	it just compiles them for you
14:17	technomancy	dgrnbrg: no, it takes a string argument
14:17	dgrnbrg	which is first compiled to a regex
14:17	dgrnbrg	it's a real regex, but it doesn't take the regex as the argument
14:17	dgrnbrg	it takes the pattern str-
14:17	technomancy	right; I'm just saying that a better-designed API would be to take a regex argument
14:18	technomancy	if you didn't have to work around the shortcomings of the Java Programming Language™
14:19	danlarkin	technomancy: Sun's ex-lawyers thank you
14:19	technomancy	I should set up a dabbrev for that
14:20	dgrnbrg	technomancy: :)
14:20	dgrnbrg	at least the jvm is really fast
14:21	emezeske	*once it's running
14:26	dgrnbrg	*if it starts
14:29	rplevy	does cucumber-jvm's included clojure interface support the tabular data feature of cucumber? it seems like it doesn't yet, but I may be wrong.
14:53	Licenser	is there a way to make a callback function not callbacky?
14:53	`fogus	Unable to parse that sentence
14:54	amalloy	i think it parses fine but lacks semantics
14:55	Licenser	okay let me rephrase :)
14:55	solidsnack	Licenser: Do you mean, threads?
14:56	Licenser	I got some icky library that wants to only communicate via callbacks like bla.start(something, callback_function)
14:57	Licenser	but I'd like to get the result out of that callback function and have the result outside of the call and not inside of the callback
14:57	TimMc	Licenser: atom & watcher?
14:59	`fogus	Licenser: You want to convert a function taking a callback into one that is synchronous?
14:59	amalloy	i suggest drinking their callback koolaid
14:59	Licenser	yes that is about what I want :)
14:59	Licenser	amalloy it is annoying
14:59	`fogus	Licenser: https://github.com/joyofclojure/book-source/blob/master/src/joy/promises.clj#L39
14:59	TimMc	Licenser: but that lacks certain concurrency characteristics, since there is only one atom involved
15:00	amalloy	a promise is certainly better than an atom
15:00	nicl	Hey all, beginner here looking to get into clojure. But I'm having a problems installing swank-clojure and getting it set up with emacs.
15:00	TimMc	Licenser: Forget everything I said about atoms, including my correction.
15:00	nicl	Clojure and Leiningen are installed fine
15:01	nicl	And I've installed swank-clojure
15:01	Licenser	what atoms TimMc ?
15:01	TimMc	Hmm? :-P
15:01	nicl	But when I run lein swank I get 'Couldn't find project.clj...'
15:01	nicl	Any good walkthroughs out there for ubuntu/linux or anyone come across this problem ?
15:02	ibdknox	hm, are promises in CLJS?
15:02	ldopa	nicl: are you trying to run lein swank outside of a leiningen project?
15:03	nicl	ldopa: yeah, I just want to check if it is working. Because I get the same problem when I try m-x-clojure-jack-in in emacs
15:03	Licenser	ibdknox that is what I am researching right now ^^
15:03	ibdknox	I don't think they are
15:03	nicl	ldopa: do I need to create a project for this to work / to playaround ?
15:03	ldopa	nicl: yep
15:03	Licenser	noooooo :(
15:03	nicl	ldopa: ok great, thanks for the heads up
15:04	ibdknox	,(source promise)
15:04	clojurebot	Source not found
15:04	stuartsierra	A Clojure promise is basically an Atom + a j.u.c.CountDownLatch
15:05	TimMc	Locking is easier in JS. :-P
15:05	ibdknox	heh
15:05	ibdknox	unfortunately that can't really work in JS
15:05	ibdknox	thinking about it more
15:05	TimMc	ibdknox: Oh, hum... because you can't block threads.
15:05	amalloy	it can easily just be an atom, right?
15:06	`fogus	promise deliver in ClojureScript could just be aliasing of the atom stuff as a start
15:06	TimMc	You;d have to make it a callback thingy anyhow!
15:06	ibdknox	`fogus: but you can't block
15:06	ibdknox	ever
15:06	amalloy	oh, right, i see
15:06	Licenser	hmm seems it does not
15:06	ibdknox	stupid browsers
15:06	TimMc	Licenser: The good news is, we can write promise/deliver. The bad news is, it will need a callback.
15:06	`fogus	A promise doesn't block either if it doesn't block
15:06	ibdknox	programming on the UI thread is stupid
15:07	TimMc	s,/me ,/say /,
15:07	Licenser	problem is I hate this silly return everything in callbacks stuff
15:07	ibdknox	I think the closest you could do is something like a more complicated form of my letrem in fetch
15:07	TimMc	Welcome to JS.
15:08	amalloy	Licenser: it's not really silly, even on the jvm. in javascript it's practically mandatory
15:08	ibdknox	which wouldn't be that hard
15:08	TimMc	Right, you could have a macro that hides the fact that it is a callback.
15:08	Licenser	amalloy I understand that in some palces callbacks are a great thing
15:08	Licenser	but not when every forking function reutrns their stuff in callbacks
15:09	lucian	surely dealing with callbacks is easier than dealing with threads in most cases
15:09	Licenser	ibdknox do you have a link to that in code?
15:09	lucian	deferreds or CPS transform are very simple solutions
15:09	ibdknox	Licenser: https://github.com/ibdknox/fetch/blob/master/src/fetch/macros.clj#L12
15:09	amalloy	meh. what's the difference? (my-fn (lib-call a)) vs (lib-call a my-fn)
15:10	nicl	ldopa: ok, created a project and it works great! Thanks
15:10	ibdknox	amalloy: try doing that when there's a loop involved
15:10	ibdknox	less common in Clojure
15:10	amalloy	it's true, i picked the most-convenient example
15:11	ibdknox	I think the problem is mostly that it requires an inversion of the implementation :(
15:11	ibdknox	and more importantly, the thinking around how to solve it
15:11	ibdknox	it works well enough and the simple case is certainly simple. It easily ends up degrading over time though. It's what pissed me off about Node
15:11	ldopa	nicl: np
15:12	Licenser	I just find it annoying this I don't want to put callbacks in every function call it is just annoying\
15:13	ibdknox	anyways, hiding it in a macro seems ok
15:14	Licenser	amalloy also if you want to do two things with the result from lib-call the first is a big difference to the second
15:15	ibdknox	I feel like this discussion about the ns form is mostly a non-discussion, the available options here are very narrow: break everyone or do nothing
15:16	ibdknox	I have a hard time believing the former would really be on the table
15:16	amalloy	ibdknox: for jvm-clojure, yes. for cljs, isn't it the opposite? fix it or do nothing?
15:17	ibdknox	amalloy: true, I bet the cljs "fix" is pretty trivial too
15:19	TimMc	ibdknox: ns discussion?
15:19	ibdknox	TimMc: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/e8411f74f86b5a09
15:19	hiredman	multiple :requires is icky
15:20	arohner	ibdknox: I also have yet to see an opinion on why it needs a breaking change at all
15:20	ibdknox	arohner: yeah
15:20	arohner	hiredman: sure, but break all the existing code? why?
15:20	hiredman	arohner: to force people to do things in a not icky way
15:20	hiredman	shrug
15:20	arohner	hiredman: would you like to come fix 50kLoC for me?
15:21	arohner	for free?
15:21	hiredman	arohner: you ahve 50kLoC of erroneous code
15:21	TimMc	If hiredman didn't have me on /ignore, I could explain to him some very compelling reasons.
15:21	gfredericks	reducing multiple requires to one shouldn't be hard to automate...
15:21	hiredman	I bet you could write a 10 line clojure program to fix it
15:21	TimMc	I'll just have to tell him in person at the meetup tonight.
15:21	arohner	hiredman: no, I don't. I have 50kLoC of other people's broken libraries
15:21	gfredericks	TimMc: what did you do to him?
15:22	TimMc	gfredericks: No idea.
15:22	arohner	"broken"
15:22	arohner	which is exactly why 1.3 was so painful
15:22	hiredman	arohner: ah, well, most of those are broken under 1.4 anyway
15:22	arohner	hiredman: what is breaking in 1.4?
15:22	hiredman	1.3/1.4
15:23	hiredman	TimMc: I don't have you on ignore
15:23	hiredman	well, /ignore
15:23	Licenser	are we talking about combining require and use?
15:24	gfredericks	TimMc: the plot thickens!
15:24	hiredman	I am not deeply committed to the idea of breaking everything, I just can't believe the horrible style people write clojure code in
15:25	amalloy	i don't see why multiple requires are so offensive. i don't like them, but it's a reasonable choice to allow. maybe i want my app-related use/requires first, and then at the bottom some use/requires that i think nobody will care about
15:26	TimMc	Whoa, he acknowledges my existence!
15:26	gfredericks	amalloy: I due usually end up grouping things like that, but it makes me feel a little dirty
15:26	Raynes	Because it is.
15:26	hiredman	I've been thinking we could have one thing that does require+import that differentiated via () or []
15:27	Raynes	I hate when people use code with no meaning just to group code visually.
15:27	Raynes	That's what comments are for.
15:27	TimMc	hiredman: Did you before? Because it's awfully curious how you'd answer people after I'd answered them, with the same advice, many seconds later.
15:27	TimMc	Meh, whatever.
15:28	Licenser	can someone explain why multiple requires should be bad?
15:28	hiredman	TimMc: possibly, I have 74 people on ignore, so obviously I don't really keep track
15:28	hiredman	but you are not on /ignore now
15:28	TimMc	shrug
15:28	amalloy	ibdknox: just poked around: you can get an almost-working version of multiple-require in cljs with like a one-line change
15:29	rplevy	Licenser: repetition is ugly and morally wrong
15:30	Licenser	but I have mutliple defn's in my code too
15:30	Vinzent	Without multiple :uses you can't e.g. :reload only namespaces which you want
15:30	TimMc	rplevy: Ah, but what about separating use/require against one set of libs from use/require against another set?
15:30	rplevy	TimMc: trying to picture it...
15:30	TimMc	I prefer to organize my ns by topic rather than how each piece is refer'd.
15:31	Licenser	I'd double TimMc there, that is a good reason
15:32	Vinzent	TimMc, could you explain what do you mean?
15:33	hiredman	emacs -nw /var/log/safe.log
15:33	hiredman	pardon me
15:33	Licenser	Vinzent (ns bla (:rquire [liba.overloading]) (:use [liba.nonoverloding]) (:rquire [libb.overloading]) (:use [libb.nonoverloding]))
15:33	TimMc	Vinzent: (:use [clojure.java.jdbc :only (...)]) (:require clojure.java.jdbc.internal) ... some other libs using the same pattern
15:35	Vinzent	you can (:use [clojure.java.jdbc :only [...]] [clojure.java.jdbc.internal :only []] ...)
15:35	Vinzent	Actually, I don't understand why :require isn't deprecated already :)
15:36	Licenser	huh?
15:36	amalloy	haha
15:38	Licenser	oddly enough someone on clojure.de suggested combining use and requrie into one today - actually a good Idea I think
15:38	Vinzent	Licenser, you can write (:use [a-lib :only [] :as a]) instead of (:require [a-lib :as a]), that'd allow you to avoid multiple use\require clauses
15:38	Licenser	really?
15:39	TimMc	Vinzent: Is that true on 1.3?
15:39	amalloy	yes, but that's atrocious
15:39	Vinzent	Licenser, TimMc, yes, try it :)
15:39	TimMc	Oh, that's not what I want anyway.
15:39	Raynes	Didn't require and use already get merged?
15:39	Vinzent	amalloy, why?
15:39	Raynes	I thought that ship had sailed.
15:40	Raynes	Vinzent: Because it is atrocious.
15:40	rplevy	the new :require ... :refer vars solves all these problems elegantly, no?
15:41	TimMc	Definitely looking forward to that.
15:42	Vinzent	Raynes, hah :) but what exactly is wrong with it? It's supported in all versions of clojure and it requries much less typing than :require + :refer
15:43	Raynes	Vinzent: I don't have to explain myself to you. BEGONE.
15:43	TimMc	Vinzent: Doesn't it still refer all the ns publics?
15:43	Vinzent	Raynes, what's wrong with you?
15:44	Vinzent	TimMc, with :only [], no
15:44	TimMc	oh, I see. And ew.
15:44	TimMc	That's atrocious.
15:44	Raynes	Hahaha
15:46	Vinzent	TimMc, lol :) well, that's better than using both :use and :require
15:47	Bronsa	am I a bad person?
15:47	lucian	wtf, (use 'clojure.set) moves everything into the current ns?
15:47	Raynes	You're a horrible person.
15:47	Bronsa	i suspected that
15:47	lucian	that's like doing python's from clojure.set import * by default
15:48	scriptor	lucian: only use :use with :only
15:48	scriptor	unless if trolling
15:48	Vinzent	Bronsa, I feel silly when I have to e.g. (:use [foo :only [bar]]) and then (:require [foo :as f])
15:48	lucian	scriptor: but that's the other way around. it defaults to *
15:48	Vinzent	Bronsa, also, it's idiomatic to use only :use (see http://datomic.com/company/resources/clojure-api)!
15:48	scriptor	lucian: yea, that's just what use does, if you want something like import require is what you want
15:49	lucian	scriptor: that's a terrible default
15:49	Bronsa	wait what.
15:49	lucian	scriptor: isn't use considered idiomatic?
15:49	scriptor	lucian: only if you just want certain functions, I'm not sure tbh
15:49	Bronsa	i tought it was going to be considered idiomatic require
15:49	Vinzent	lucian, yes it is
15:50	Bronsa	and deprecated use
15:50	lucian	Bronsa: that would be good
15:50	lucian	haskell makes the same mistake
15:50	Bronsa	isn't that what technomancy proposed?
15:50	amalloy	:use/:as is fine, if a little tacky. but :use :only [] :as is disgusting
15:52	Bronsa	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/f5bcf647d480c4eaa4e808ec41edb698ad66ec63
15:52	Vinzent	Bronsa, well, as you can see on that page, looks like :use is idiomatic (after all, you're not going to argue with Rich Hickey about what is idiomatic clojure?! :)
15:53	lucian	ok, (require [foo :as bar]) is nice
15:54	Vinzent	amalloy, what's wrong with it? :use without :only considered harmful, so you always have to write [:use ... :only [...]]. If you don't want to imports symbols in your ns, :only list is empty. I think it's not that bad from this point of view.
15:54	Bronsa	well, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-879 this (accepted) ticket seems to suggest otherwise
15:54	amalloy	that's what :require is for, dude
15:55	TimMc	Vinzent: When I am reading someone's code and I see "use" I think "OK, be on the lookout for the symbols in the :only clause (because you'd beter have one, dude)"
15:56	TimMc	Vinzent: and then I see :only [], and I'm like "WTF, this is actually a :require :as in disguise."
15:57	tmciver	So, despite the constant advise to 'only use :use with :only', you shouldn't use :use at all?
15:57	tmciver	s/advise/advice
15:57	gfredericks	tmciver: :only with a non-empty list is I think the purpose
15:58	Vinzent	Bronsa, I guess it was accepted so people can choose what style they prefer
15:58	Vinzent	amalloy, There can be only one! :)
15:58	stuartsierra	CLJ-879 is an attempt to unify :require/:use into just :require.
15:58	Bronsa	Vinzent: the propsal states that the intent is to deprecate :use
15:58	Raynes	stuartsierra: I thought that had already been accepted.
15:58	stuartsierra	Raynes: it has
15:58	stuartsierra	and committed
15:59	Raynes	I see.
15:59	Bronsa	Cant a warning be printed whan using :use?
15:59	Bronsa	well, probabily it would be too noisy
15:59	Raynes	That'd probably not be the best idea.
15:59	Raynes	People will support old versions on purpose.
16:00	Vinzent	ok, I give up then :) stuartsierra, thanks for clearing that out.
16:00	TimMc	I'll use the old-style stuff in libs, and the new syntax in top-level projects.
16:01	Raynes	TimMc: Same here.
16:01	Raynes	TimMc: We should be friends or something, we have so much in common.
16:01	TimMc	A lint option would be nice.
16:01	TimMc	Raynes: It's too bad you're a... what was it?
16:01	TimMc	I have that alias around here somewhere...
16:02	TimMc	"weak-ass ill-conceived piece of shit"
16:02	Bronsa	lol
16:02	Raynes	:D
16:02	TimMc	...and so is BrowserID.
16:02	TimMc	o\__/o
16:03	TimMc	I wonder if Google has picked that up yet.
16:04	TimMc	Interestingly, the 5th result for that (unquoted) is The Big Lebowski's IMDB page.
16:07	TimMc	Raynes: What-all languages are you going to have eval for?
16:08	Raynes	TimMc: I don't have a list yet. It'll grow over time, I expect.
16:18	uvtc	What is the purpose of this list: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Libraries ? Is it libraries that are under consideration for possible inclusion in contrib?
16:19	technomancy	uvtc: that list is ancient; best to ignore it
16:20	uvtc	technomancy, Ok, thank you.
16:33	mrBliss	is github giving a 500 error to anyone else?
16:34	Raynes	Looks good to me.
16:35	mrBliss	it's fixed now
16:36	Raynes	mrBliss: Maybe someone haxed it again.
16:36	mrBliss	Raynes: that's what you get with Rails ;-)
16:37	ibdknox	ad*
16:37	eggsby	mmm, 4clojure is fun
16:37	ibdknox	so much fail in that
16:37	jodaro	girlhub?
16:38	ibdknox	you know how it is.
16:38	jodaro	is that porn equivalent?
16:38	ibdknox	lol
16:38	redinger	"noir: No mass assignment bug here"?
16:38	jodaro	i think there are probably more crass options
16:39	ibdknox	redinger: exactly. Seems like rails has set a new very low bar for success ;)
16:39	ibdknox	time to profit!
16:42	Raynes	redinger: Ohai.
16:42	redinger	Raynes: Hello there
16:43	ordnungswidrig	hi all
16:45	uvtc	With Clojure, is it customary to install contrib and other Clojure libraries into a central location (like how Python uses site-packages)? Or are necessary libs always installed per-project?
16:46	technomancy	relying on site-packages is repeatability-poison
16:46	technomancy
16:46	brehaut	~repeatabilty
16:46	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:47	brehaut	bah
16:47	ibdknox	~guards
16:47	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
16:47	technomancy	clojurebot: have you suffered severe head trauma?
16:47	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:47	TimMc	suffering from typos
16:47	ibdknox	lazybot: is clojurebot retarded???
16:47	lazybot	ibdknox: Yes, 100% for sure.
16:47	TimMc	lack of \i
16:47	TimMc	~repeatability
16:47	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
16:47	TimMc	<- clojurebot-whisperer
16:47	uvtc	technomancy, Ok. So, lein always installs per-project?
16:47	ibdknox	lol
16:48	brehaut	that'll teach me fore using a tiny font
16:48	brehaut	(not really)
16:48	technomancy	uvtc: leiningen forces isolation and will only pull in dependency trees which are explicitly specified
16:49	technomancy	it doesn't always mean copying things into the project directory, but it does mean you are forced to be explicit and are protected from sloppy dependency declarations a la ruby/python
16:49	uvtc	technomancy, by "forces isolation", you mean "installs libs into the current project", correct?
16:49	technomancy	uvtc: no, it means it limits the classpath to exactly what is specified
16:49	uvtc	technomancy, (sorry --- was typing while you were typing)
16:50	technomancy	leiningen 1 copies things to lib/ by default, but that's just one way to do it
16:50	technomancy	leiningen 2 constructs classpaths with references to ~/.m2/repository
16:50	technomancy	the end result is the same when it comes to isolation
16:50	TimMc	technomancy: Run into any command length limits with that yet?
16:51	technomancy	TimMc: no, but I don't use windows
16:51	jsabeaudry	&(try :a (finally :b))
16:51	lazybot	⇒ :a
16:51	TimMc	Ah, is that mostly a Windows problem?
16:51	TimMc	Too bad, I was thinking of clever symlink tricks to get around it.
16:51	technomancy	TimMc: I've never heard of it being a problem, so I'm assuming it's a winders thing
16:51	TimMc	haha, OK
16:51	uvtc	Is lein's job to pull in dependencies that I specify in the project.clj? Or can I tell it to install whatever I want?
16:52	technomancy	uvtc: I'm not sure what you are asking.
16:52	uvtc	I'm trying to learn the basic principles lein follows.
16:53	technomancy	the best place to start is "lein help tutorial"
16:53	uvtc	I read the tutorial at the github page.
16:55	amalloy	TimMc: there's a limit to command length on unix too, but only because the shell has a fixed-size buffer for you to type at (or something similar to that). if you construct a long command programmatically it works fine
16:56	amalloy	eg, in a directory with a million files `echo *` fails because the shell can't glob that much, but `find . \| xargs echo` works because xargs is willing to make the command as long as necessary
16:57	uvtc	technomancy, I'm asking about how contrib + other 3rd party libs are handled by lein. For example, `lein help install` says it installs the current project and deps into my local repository. What does "local repository" mean? Somewhere in my home dir?
16:57	technomancy	uvtc: that's correct; ~/.m2/repository
16:57	technomancy	you can think of it as a local cache for Maven Central and Clojars
16:58	technomancy	it will be available for other projects, but only those that explicitly request that specific version
16:59	uvtc	technomancy, Ah! Ok. Though, earlier you wrote, "relying on site-packages is repeatability-poison" ... were you talking about python there, or the ~/.m2/repository directory?
16:59	technomancy	uvtc: I meant having system-wide packages available implicitly
17:00	technomancy	like python and ruby
17:00	amalloy	uvtc: he was talking about global installs in general. ~/.m2 isn't a global install because it's all neatly versioned and explicit
17:01	technomancy	at least in the ruby community they are experiencing a lot of pain moving away from that model
17:01	uvtc	Excellent. So then, what is the point of `lein install`? If I can run my project from within the project dir via `lein run`?
17:02	technomancy	if you make a change to a project, you may want to make it available to other projects that depend on it
17:02	technomancy	you could do that by pushing it to clojars, or you could install it locally first to test before you push
17:02	uvtc	Why is the directory named ".m2"?
17:02	technomancy	it's an implementation detail; comes from maven2
17:03	brehaut	its an abbreviation of Maven Madness
17:04	amalloy	brehaut: c'mon, we need you commonwealthers to keep Muppetry alive
17:05	brehaut	amalloy: i dont understand
17:05	amalloy	instead of Madness
17:05	brehaut	oh right
17:06	uvtc	Ok. So when I use Leiningen, a local repository (~/.m2/repository) is automatically set up to hold common libs (jars).
17:07	uvtc	And if I use `lein install`, libs are copied to that repository.
17:07	amalloy	so far so good, uvtc
17:08	geoffeg_c	so how do most people manage war files? developer builds war file, sends it to QA who tests it and then deploys it to production.. do most people put those war files in maven or git or some http server?
17:08	raek	libs are also copied to that directory when lein deps finds that it isn't there and it is available in one of the repos
17:08	geoffeg_c	putting war files in git seems wrong and maven doesn't seem like the right place
17:08	technomancy	geoffeg_c: definitely don't want those checked in
17:09	geoffeg_c	right, agreed
17:09	geoffeg_c	but at the same time you want to keep previous "versions" of war files around in case you need to roll back a deployment to prod.. and you need to keep checksums of the war files around to verify the correct one was deployed to prod..
17:10	technomancy	geoffeg_c: one way is to get a CI server that uploads each successful release to s3 or something
17:10	ordnungswidrig	I'd use a locale repository, either maven or a webserver. webdav might be of use here.
17:11	uvtc	raek, so, when you run `lein deps` it looks at the project.clj's :dependencies to see what it needs to download, correct?
17:11	geoffeg_c	ok, so s3 or some http server.. which is what i was thinking but wondering if there was something more... appropriate
17:11	ordnungswidrig	geoffeg_c: a private maven repository is appropriate.
17:12	raek	uvtc: yes
17:12	geoffeg_c	ordnungswidrig: hmm, but maven seems awkward for wars.. i mean, nothing depends on a war file so
17:12	uvtc	raek, Whoops -- sorry, it says that right there in `lein help deps`.
17:12	raek	it also downloads dependencies of dependencies, etc
17:13	ordnungswidrig	geoffeg_c: maven supports artifact types. "war" is one of them as is "pom" or "jar"
17:13	geoffeg_c	ok, i'll consider that again
17:13	raek	uvtc: "lein install" is most often used when you want to try an unreleased version of a project before releasing it properly
17:13	geoffeg_c	thanks everyone
17:13	ordnungswidrig	geoffeg_c: you might want to have a look at http://www.jfrog.com/products.php
17:14	raek	in some sense, you can think of it as a cousin to "make install"
17:14	geoffeg_c	technomancy: is there a way to get lein (1.7) to push a war file in addition to a jar file to a private maven repo?
17:14	raek	most importantly, you rarely need to use "lein install" when using someone else's library
17:15	technomancy	geoffeg_c: maybe using lein ring? I've never used war files.
17:15	geoffeg_c	ok
17:15	geoffeg_c	LOLZ
17:15	ordnungswidrig	+1
17:15	technomancy	some day that joke might get old... but not today!
17:15	uvtc	raek, what I don't get is, it's customary to package Clojure libs as jars, correct? If that's the case, it seems really nice and simple to just have all my deps saved as jar files in my project's lib dir...
17:16	uvtc	Guess that's why I'm not understanding the point of the .m2 repo.
17:16	amalloy	having your dependencies checked into git would be horrible
17:17	amalloy	and if you don't put them someplace central (just save a copy in each project) you end up downloading all those jars hundreds of times
17:17	uvtc	amalloy, Ah! Of course. It's assumed you create a git repo for your project after you create it. Right right.
17:17	raek	some of it is explained here: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
17:17	amalloy	shrug you can .gitignore them, but then everyone who uses your project needs to get a copy of the deps somehow
17:18	uvtc	Ok. Made some headway. Need to go read the docs again and absorb some more. Thanks so much!
17:26	dgrnbrg	How do I invoke a varargs java fn from clojure?
17:28	arohner	dgrnbrg: pass a java array
17:28	arohner	(.foo obj (into-array [:a :b :c])
17:29	arohner	might need to use the type argument of into-array
17:29	dgrnbrg	ok, thanks :)
17:29	dgrnbrg	that's what I thought, but I was having signature mismatches
17:30	jsabeaudry	What kind of problems will be encountered when "send"ing potentially blocking actions to an agent (instead of send-off)?
17:31	arohner	jsabeaudry: the send pool has N + 2 threads in the pool, where N is the number of cpus you have
17:31	arohner	while the send-off pool is unbounded
17:31	arohner	so send'ing could block your CPU bound actions
17:31	jsabeaudry	arohner, So it would potentially block all other actions, is that right?
17:32	justicefries	what are people actively using? compojure or noir?
17:32	m0smith	just: noir
17:32	arohner	jsabeaudry: yes, if you send enough blocking actions
17:33	justicefries	I'm trying to actively wrap my mind around Clojure and I'm not sure if books (programming clj, joy of clojure) are the best way for me to go.
17:33	justicefries	or if I just need to reread.
17:33	jsabeaudry	justicefries, best way is to code imho
17:33	justicefries	that's what I'm thinking.
17:34	brehaut	joy of clojure and the orielly clojure book are both great resources though; they wont hurt.
17:34	justicefries	brehaut: trying to work my way through the o'reilly one right now, it's...hard work! :d
17:34	RickInGA	Clojure in Action is good too
17:34	justicefries	:D
17:35	AimHere	A lot of OReilly books probably hurt, if you drop them on your foot
17:35	brehaut	learning anything worth learning is hard work :)
17:35	justicefries	true.
17:35	RickInGA	each one covers things a bit differently, can learn from all.
17:35	dgrnbrg	arohner: anything quirky with inner interfaces?
17:36	dgrnbrg	I have (into-array qualified.name.of.inner.interface [elts])
17:36	dgrnbrg	and I import the inner interface directly
17:36	dgrnbrg	and it complains classnotfound
17:36	amalloy	that's not the real name of the interface
17:36	dgrnbrg	amalloy: what can I do to get it to work?
17:36	amalloy	package.foo.Class$InnerClass
17:37	amalloy	is the actual name. javac just lets you pretend it's something else
17:38	dgrnbrg	I see :)
17:38	dgrnbrg	got it compiling :)
17:38	dgrnbrg	I suppose no one's written a clojure API for the new filesystem watching apis?
17:40	amalloy	$google clojure watchtower
17:40	lazybot	[ibdknox/watchtower - GitHub] https://github.com/ibdknox/watchtower
17:40	dgrnbrg	but that doesn't use the fs watching api
17:40	ibdknox	that doesn't use the NIO stuff in java 7 though
17:40	dgrnbrg	i have a lot of files
17:41	ibdknox	daaku wrote a watcher thing that uses the java 7 apis
17:41	dgrnbrg	i'm writing software to dynamically build indices of java code for vim & emacs completion
17:42	technomancy	dgrnbrg: like ctags?
17:42	ibdknox	what's wrong with ctags?
17:42	dgrnbrg	it's not dynamically reindexing
17:42	dgrnbrg	it doesn't follow jars & understand the classpath
17:43	dgrnbrg	unless i'm mistaken wrt ctag's functionality
17:45	ibdknox	that's a very expensive set of things to do in real time
17:45	jodaro	RickInGA: see that mail from alex?
17:45	dgrnbrg	I have a sqlite db with the indices to do cmd-T style completion in vim or emacs, and a daemon that monitors the directories
17:46	dgrnbrg	currently i'm using a doclet to parse the java, but I may have to move to antlr grammar
17:46	RickInGA	cool
17:46	RickInGA	I didn't know I got a discount too!
17:46	dgrnbrg	I can do it in real time now -- I got the idea to build it b/c I like nail gun/vimclojure, but I'm not aware of that functionality for java
17:54	ordnungswidrig	can defmacro destructure args in 1.3?
17:56	ordnungswidrig	(defmacro foo [[[a b] [c & ds] & body] …)
17:58	Vinzent	ordnungswidrig, yes, why not?
17:59	ordnungswidrig	had some problems with it.
18:03	ordnungswidrig	Vinzent: ok (let [[a & b] [nil]] a) => nil
18:03	ordnungswidrig	Vinzent: that was the problem.
18:06	amalloy	so far i only see intended behavior, no problems
18:09	ordnungswidrig	amalloy: yes, it was a misunderstanding
18:38	OwenOu	a newbie question, keyword can be a function too, e.g., (:foo {:foo :bar}) is the same as ({:foo :bar} :foo), what's a good use for keyword being a function?
18:38	OwenOu	or what's the idiomatic way?
18:40	Vinzent	OwenOu, use keyword first when you treat a map like an object
18:40	technomancy	OwenOu: it's common to map a keyword over a vector of maps
18:41	OwenOu	Vinzent: that's a very good point
18:41	TimMc	I just mapped a map over a collection of keywords. Feels good, man.
18:41	OwenOu	technomancy: can u give me an example?
18:42	arohner	OwenOu: (map :foo [{:foo 1 :bar 2} {:foo 3 :bar 4}])
18:42	arohner	=> (1 3)
18:42	arohner	oh right, we have clojurebot for that
18:42	Iceland_jack	,(-> {:name {:first-name "Alice" :last-name "Silverman"}} :name :first-name)
18:42	clojurebot	"Alice"
18:43	Iceland_jack	you can access information from within nested data structures
18:43	emezeske	,(get-in {:first-name "Alice" :last-name "Silverman"} [:name :first-name])
18:43	clojurebot	nil
18:43	emezeske	,(get-in {:name {:first-name "Alice" :last-name "Silverman"}} [:name :first-name])
18:43	clojurebot	"Alice"
18:43	Iceland_jack	emezeske: thanks :)
18:43	amalloy	that's kinda a lame example, Iceland_jack, because get-in is at least as good at that
18:43	amalloy	&(get-in {:name {:first-name "Alice" :last-name "Silverman"}} [:name :first-name])
18:43	lazybot	⇒ "Alice"
18:43	Iceland_jack	I'll try to delame my examples in the future
18:44	amalloy	wow, what is my ping time? like two minutes? you guys had a whole conversation at light-speed while i was typing
18:45	Vinzent	by the way, where is dissoc-in?
18:46	technomancy	Vinzent: there's update-in
18:46	Vinzent	technomancy, yes, but where is dissoc-in? :)
18:46	Vinzent	also, value of nil for the key is not the same as if there is no this key at all
18:49	kenth	How would I map a function that executes javascript over a list of strings, and returns the relevant results in a parallelized manner? My current code is (map #(.executeJavaScript) lst ), however it does not have Thread/sleep
18:49	OwenOu	arohner: thanks
18:49	OwenOu	clojurebot seems pretty neat, is it open sourced?
18:50	emezeske	clojurebot: where do you live?
18:50	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:50	emezeske	Aw :)
18:50	technomancy	clojurebot: source?
18:50	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
18:50	emezeske	clojurebot: Yeah, help out technomancy but not me. Thanks.
18:50	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:51	amalloy	clojurebot: who's your daddy?
18:51	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:53	kenth	(pmap #(let [result (.executeJavaScript %1)] (do (Thread/sleep 5000) result)) JSlist) OR (map #(future (let [result (.executeJavaScript %1)] (do (Thread/sleep 5000) result))) JSlist) , which makes sense for javascript type stuff?
18:55	Raynes	OwenOu: Also, lazybot: https://github.com/flatland/lazybot
18:56	Raynes	Which is more user-friendly (as in, it is possible to run it on your own machine without gouging your eyes out).
18:58	kenth	hm.., what happens with a combination of pmap and future?
19:01	emezeske	kenth: What is the Thread/sleep for?
19:01	kenth	waiting for the javascript execution to do its thing
19:01	OwenOu	Raynes: thanks
19:02	emezeske	kenth: So you're saying that .executeJavaScript returns before it's done?
19:03	kenth	(pmap #(let [reslt (.getNewPage (.executeJavaScript coursepage %1))] (Thread/sleep 5000) reslt) listOfJSstrings)
19:04	kenth	yep, waiting for the js info to come in before returning
19:05	emezeske	kenth: But.. what is the value of "result" between when (.executeJavaScript) returns, and when Thread/sleep finishes?
19:07	kenth	I just tried it out, the result wasn't quite right.. its part of http://htmlunit.sourceforge.net/apidocs/com/gargoylesoftware/htmlunit/ScriptResult.html
19:16	groovemonkey	I'm having an issue installing slime for emacs 23. I've followed Lau Jensen's tutorial on vimeo, but when I do M-x slime and choose "yes" for downloading and installing clojure jars, I get an error
19:17	groovemonkey	Failed to download clojure jars
19:17	groovemonkey	anyone have any ideas?
19:18	technomancy	groovemonkey: sounds like you found some old documentation; try https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/README.md
19:19	groovemonkey	thank you! I'll try that right away. Thanks for your time.
19:19	technomancy	sure
20:32	johnmn3	hello
20:32	johnmn3	Does semperos ever pop in?
20:37	amalloy	i know he used to. i don't remember hearing anythin from him for a fair while, but who knows
20:39	amalloy	apparently he was here earlier today
20:39	amalloy	so i am not a winner
20:41	johnmn3	hmm
20:41	johnmn3	juxt is the winner!
20:45	johnmn3	what is function A, such that (= 42 (A #(pred that returns true for 42) (range 1 100)))
20:45	Vinzent	some?
20:45	johnmn3	well, I want to stop searching on first find
20:46	johnmn3	take-while & not
20:46	Vinzent	johnmn3, it's some
20:46	johnmn3	Okay, will some return 42?
20:46	johnmn3	and it does
20:46	johnmn3	thanks Vinzent
20:47	Vinzent	np
20:51	johnmn3	ah, no. I want it to work like filter
20:51	johnmn3	where the pred will return true, but the value fed to the pred is returned, if true
20:52	johnmn3	I want filter-but-stop-on-first-success
20:52	johnmn3	(first (drop-while #(not (...
20:52	johnmn3	right?
20:54	johnmn3	well, it works
20:55	johnmn3	I guess I could have changed the pred to a function that returned it's input if true.
21:00	amalloy	(first (filter ...))
21:02	johnmn3	oh, duh
21:02	johnmn3	and filter is lazy, so it'll stop searching after the first, right? (chunking notwithstanding)
21:54	gtuckerkellogg	i'd like to be able to compare two data structure (as part of a unit test) and am unsure how to do it once they become more complicated than a simple map
21:54	gtuckerkellogg	For example, this fails (= (() ({:pos 0, :mark "5"})) (() ({:pos 0, :mark "5"})) )
21:54	Iceland_jack	gridaphobe: which properties would you like to compare?
21:54	gtuckerkellogg	all of them,
21:55	gtuckerkellogg	if I look at just the map, it works fine, but once I have a seq I can't compare, and can't find a way to use (map) to compare the elements
21:55	gtuckerkellogg	(with apologies for my clojure noob-ness)
21:55	gridaphobe	Iceland_jack: are you sure you meant to ping me?
21:55	Iceland_jack	haha, no I didn't
21:56	Iceland_jack	sorry :)
21:56	gridaphobe	np :)
21:57	Iceland_jack	gtuckerkellogg: I'm not sure how you'd do that without creating your own equality checker
21:58	Iceland_jack	hopefully someone who actually knows Clojure can come along 8)
21:58	gtuckerkellogg	shouldn't i be able to do that using (map ?
21:58	gtuckerkellogg	yet it seems to evade me
21:58	amalloy	just use [] instead of () for the seqs you want to compare
21:59	amalloy	or quote it, or anything
21:59	Iceland_jack	oh, that was the problem
21:59	Iceland_jack	,(= '(() ({:pos 0, :mark "5"}))'(() ({:pos 0, :mark "5"})))
21:59	Iceland_jack	this works?
21:59	clojurebot	true
21:59	Iceland_jack	thanks clojurebot
22:00	gtuckerkellogg	cool
22:19	ideally_world	is there a way to get output from the Swing thread in Slime?
22:22	technomancy	gtuckerkellogg: have you tried lein-difftest?
22:22	ideally_world	Programming in Clojure is far more revealing of how much of an idiot I am than any other language :)
22:23	gtuckerkellogg	technomancy, no but I'll look into it
22:23	gtuckerkellogg	i'm really new with clojure, but it's fun
22:24	gtuckerkellogg	I have to agree with ideally_world :-)
22:24	technomancy	it's more about making it easier to tell _how_ two data structures are different in the event of failures
22:26	gtuckerkellogg	that would be usefl
22:26	gtuckerkellogg	useful
22:37	aperiodic	oh wow, lein-difftest is awesome
23:03	ferd	any way to (set! print-meta true) so that slime-macroexpand-1 shows my metadata?
23:59	amalloy	i doubt if you want it to - there are usually zillions of {:line 342} meta entries on source code
23:59	amalloy	and you can just macroexpand it by hand at the repl if you want to check on occasion