#clojure – 2012-03-02

2012-03-02

00:02	hugod	choffstein: you have a require for com.newfoundresearch.ttm09.data in each test namespace?
00:02	choffstein	yep
00:02	choffstein	Oh, probably because I am 'using' in the test namespace with a :reload? I wonder if I qualify the namespaces if the import won't clash
00:02	hugod	with :reload or :reload-all? those don't tend to work well with defrecords
00:03	hugod	each time a defrecord is evaled, it generates a new class
00:03	choffstein	Ah, gotcha. Thanks.
00:04	choffstein	Eventually I'll learn all these little things
00:04	hugod	I think that gets everyone on their first foray into records and protocols
02:07	tsdh	Is there a better way to check if a Var is a protocol than testing if its value is a map with keys (:on-interface :on :sigs :var :method-map :method-builders)?
03:18	zawzey	Hi, there's a macro i'm trying to use, which does a "def foobar xyz" internally. But I want to be able to pass the foobar macro variable as a string, instead of as a symbol. How can I do this?
03:18	accel	My needs: convert a Graphics2D to a SVG. Is Apache Batik the way to go? (I'm surprised Java doesn't have a builtin library.)
03:22	AimHere	zawzey, you tried (symbol "abcde") ?
03:22	zawzey	AimHere: yes, it fails with ava.lang.RuntimeException: First argument to def must be a Symbol
03:23	raek	zawzey: are you sure you are not executing the def in the macro body, rather than returning code that contains the def?
03:25	zawzey	eg: defmacro setvar [input val] `(def ~input ~val))
03:26	zawzey	(setvar foobar 3) works
03:26	zawzey	but (setvar (symbol "foobar") 3) doesn't
03:27	raek	zawzey: sounds like you want to use the intern function instead
03:27	tsdh	zawzey: Because a macro doesn't eval its args.
03:27	AimHere	(defmacro wibble [s] (let [f (symbol s)] `(def ~f "Garble"))) worked for me
03:27	zawzey	tsdh: yeah, i was reading about the intern functiona s well
03:27	tsdh	zawzey: Your macro expands into (def (symbol "foobar") 3) which is not valid.
03:28	zawzey	tsdh: well it's not my macro, it's some lib's macro, i guess i'd have to re-write it..
03:29	zawzey	or a wrapper around that as what AimHere suggested
03:30	tsdh	Speaking of the name setvar, I don't think it's a good idea anyway.
03:30	zawzey	tsdh: i know, that's just a simple example ;)
03:31	tsdh	ok
03:33	tsdh	Can anyone provide an example of how to use `extenders'?
03:34	tsdh	For me all of (extenders MyProt), (extenders 'MyProt), (extenders #'MyProt) return nil, although I have a deftype that extends the protocol.
03:36	tsdh	Hm, checking the code, it just does (:impls prot), but none of my protocols has such a key...
03:41	tsdh	(extends? MyProt MyType) works though, because that tries implements? first before falling back to :impls.
05:35	ljos	Hi - is there no exponent fuction in the standard library or am I blind?
05:36	amalloy	&(Math/pow 2 5)
05:36	lazybot	⇒ 32.0
05:36	amalloy	&(apply * (repeat 5 2))
05:36	lazybot	⇒ 32
05:38	babilen	ljos: ... or use numeric-tower's expt function.
05:38	ljos	I was just not expecting to have to call a seperate library. But ok. This works.
06:39	Wraithan	I'm having trouble with clj-redis. I've read the code, and am pretty sure I am using it correctly but still nothing. I am calling (init :url "redis://localhost:6380") but it is connecting to my redis instance that is running on port 6379. From what I understand of the code (and running snippets of it myself in SLIME) this should work.
06:50	bsteuber	-
07:10	beardmigration	Can anyone help me with emacs and slime configuration? Tearing my remaining hair out here.
07:10	vijaykiran	beardmigration: what's the problem ?
07:11	vijaykiran	I use slime/emacs - so I might be alble to help
07:12	beardmigration	I get a stack dump starting with:
07:12	beardmigration	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: No such var: util/universal-path (jack_in.clj:27)
07:12	beardmigration	at clojure.lang.Compiler.analyze(Compiler.java:5205)
07:12	beardmigration
07:12	beardmigration	when I try M-x clojure-jack-in
07:13	beardmigration	This is within a lein project.
07:13	beardmigration	lein swank seems to start up when I run it.
07:13	vijaykiran	can you start lein swank separately and attach slime-con ?
07:14	beardmigration	Last time I tried no - different error - let me try again an report. Thanks vijaykiran.
07:17	beardmigration	"open-network-stream: make client process failed: connection refused, :name, SLIME Lisp, :buffer, nil, :host, 127.0.0.1, :service, 4005, :nowait, nil"
07:17	beardmigration
07:17	babilen	beardmigration: I would also recommend to tell us more about your setup and in particular how you installed lein/swank/... -- I assume that you used "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.0", but that might not be the case. (cf. https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure)
07:18	beardmigration	Yes correct babilen.
07:19	beardmigration	The lib directory of the lein project has swank-clojure-1.4.0.jar in it.
07:19	vijaykiran	I have swank-clojure-1.3.4 in my ~/.lein/plugins and from a new project I "lein swank" and in emacs I use M-x slime-connect
07:19	beardmigration	Is 1.4.0 not recommended then?
07:20	beardmigration	I'm on emacs-snapshot & debian.
07:20	vijaykiran	I don't know - I've been happily using 1.3.4 and never bothered to upgrade.
07:20	babilen	beardmigration: I would also check if you have any related elpa packages installed (in particular clojure-mode) and the versions of those packages. It works fine here with 1.3.4, but I'll give 1.4.0 a shot in a second.
07:21	vijaykiran	let me try with 1.4.0 plugin as well.
07:21	beardmigration	My ./lein/plugins has swank-clojure-1.3.4.jar in it. Which has precedence - that or the one in the local project?
07:21	babilen	Works fine here -- beardmigration: how did you install lein and which elpa packages do you have installed? Something else in ~/.lein/plugins/ ?
07:22	babilen	beardmigration: You don't need a local installation -- I would recommend to install 1.4.0 globally (i.e. with "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.0") -- Didn't you say that you did follow the instructions?
07:23	vijaykiran	1.4.0 plugin works too
07:23	beardmigration	OK babilen - I'll give that a go.
07:23	babilen	beardmigration: I am a bit confused why you have 1.3.4 if you ran "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.0" and even more confused how you ended up with an installation in a local project.
07:25	babilen	beardmigration: Which OS are you using and how did you install leiningen?
07:25	vijaykiran	he said, emacs-snapshot on debian
07:26	babilen	vijaykiran: That wouldn't install leiningen :)
07:26	beardmigration	OK my .lein/plugins now has 1.4.0
07:26	beardmigration	I'll give it a go.
07:26	vijaykiran	remove dev dependency in your project.clj too :)
07:26	beardmigration	@vijaykiran - good point.
07:27	babilen	(run "lein deps" and make sure that the local install is gone)
07:29	babilen	beardmigration: Which Debian release? (Just asking, because it would make me really happy if you would use my Debian packages. That would give you, among other things, bash-completion for lein commands ;)
07:30	beardmigration	mint-lmde actually
07:31	beardmigration	debian testing
07:31	beardmigration	in effect
07:32	beardmigration	I'd be happy to use your releases babilen - where would I find them?
07:33	babilen	beardmigration: My packages are in Debian testing/unstable -- http://packages.debian.org/sid/leiningen -- No idea which version is in mint.
07:33	beardmigration	so I can start again with lein and try an apt-get etc.?
07:35	babilen	beardmigration: I am note sure how well those packages integrate into mint (and it looks as mint doesn't have them) -- Is clojure-jack-in working now?
07:36	clgv	is there any difference between: (let [k (first group-keys)] (fn [row] (get row k))) and (fn [row] (get row (first group-keys)))?
07:37	beardmigration	UNfortunately not slime-connect gives:
07:37	beardmigration	or: Not connected.
07:37	beardmigration	Connecting to Swank on port 4005..
07:37	beardmigration	error in process filter: slime-intern-indentation-spec: Wrong type argument: listp, 1
07:37	beardmigration	error in process filter: Wrong type argument: listp, 1
07:37	beardmigration	error in process filter: slime-intern-indentation-spec: Wrong type argument: listp, 0
07:37	beardmigration	error in process filter: Wrong type argument: listp, 0
07:38	beardmigration	error in process filter: or: Can't find suitable coding-system
07:38	beardmigration	error in process filter: Can't find suitable coding-system
07:38	beardmigration	mouse-minibuffer-check: Minibuffer window is not active
07:39	raek	beardmigration: be sure to not have any other installations of slime, "slime-clj", or ritz
07:39	beardmigration	and clojure-jack-in gives me a exited abnormally with -1
07:39	raek	*be sure to not have them installed at all
07:39	beardmigration	OK - I'll just check packages.
07:40	raek	make sure you don't have it through apt too
07:40	raek	then, restart emacs
07:40	Wraithan	Nvm my question earlier, noob clojure mistake.
07:40	raek	swank-clojure comes bundled with a version of slime that works for it
07:40	beardmigration	No slime-clj is not installed
07:40	raek	and clojure-mode loads that one
07:40	raek	beardmigration: and no slime?
07:41	beardmigration	checking...
07:41	beardmigration	the man says slime is an unistalled package.
07:41	raek	if you want to use clojure-jack-in, the simplest way is to make sure slime isn't installed at all
07:41	beardmigration	Folks there are so many versions of the definitive guide to emacs and clojure - which is currently definitive?
07:42	beardmigration	Or is that an indelicate question.
07:42	raek	beardmigration: the swank-clojure docs
07:42	babilen	beardmigration: Also restart emacs and paste a list of all elpa packages that you have installed to a pastebin of your choice along with "ls -l ~/.lein/plugins/"
07:42	beardmigration	I may have a go on a slightly more virginal laptop.
07:42	babilen	beardmigration: You want https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure (or the README there) and nothing else.
07:42	Wraithan	Or have SLIME configured correctly. I do both CL and clojure and clojure-jack-in works just fine for me, as well as when I use SLIME for CL
07:42	raek	beardmigration: also paste the contents of your ~/.lein/plugins dir
07:45	beardmigration	ls ~/.lein/plugins
07:45	beardmigration	lein-swank-1.4.1.jar swank-clojure-1.4.0.jar
07:45	beardmigration	So the packages on marmalade should be good?
07:46	babilen	beardmigration: Yes -- Could you try without lein-swank please? (lein-swank has been deprecated in favour of swank-clojure)
07:47	beardmigration	how do I call swank-clojure?
07:48	raek	lein swank
07:48	raek	that functionality has been in swank-clojure for a long while
07:48	beardmigration	Check - that's what I've been doing.
07:48	raek	the lein-swank plugin probably cause problems
07:48	babilen	beardmigration: Have you removed lein-swank 1.4.1? Is it working now?
07:49	beardmigration	just a mo..
07:49	raek	beardmigration: so, for the most minimal setup you only need: 1) one version of swank-clojure installed as a plugin (no other version, and no :dev-dependencies) and 2) a recent clojure-mode.el in emacs
07:49	babilen	beardmigration: Just out of interest: It looks as if you followed outdated instructions on how to setup your environment. Where did you find them?
07:50	beardmigration	reddit.us...erm he has two posts.
07:50	beardmigration	I followed the more up to date.
07:50	raek	hehe, this one? :-) http://riddell.us/ClojureSwankLeiningenWithEmacsOnLinux.html
07:51	babilen	argh! reddit.us really needs a much lower ranking on google
07:51	beardmigration	That's the one.
07:51	babilen	sigh
07:51	beardmigration	A sucker born every day...
07:51	beardmigration	Still I know now.
07:51	raek	I think the original version of it predates leiningen
07:51	raek	so it's that old
07:51	beardmigration	Erm now slime-connect whinges about coding
07:51	babilen	err -- riddell.us :-D
07:51	lazybot	The riddell.us tutorials are much more highly-ranked on Google than they deserve to be. They're old and way too complicated. If you're trying to install Clojure...don't! Instead, install Leiningen (https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/stable) and let it manage Clojure for you.:-D
07:51	babilen	lazybot: shush
07:52	beardmigration	Ah - sounds like I've got a certain amount of unpicking to do.
07:52	beardmigration	Well it will make my emacs init.el a darn sight shorter...
07:53	raek	beardmigration: the clojure-jack-in method doesn't use an installed version of slime at all. if you can run slime-connect then you obviously have some version of slime installed
07:54	raek	if you end up using the slime-connect method, be sure to have (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) somewhere
07:54	raek	or otherwise slime will crash if you use non-ascii chars
07:54	raek	(clojure-jack-in takes care of this automatically)
07:55	beardmigration	Different error now but still no C-x C-e goodness.
07:55	beardmigration	Right I'm going to tear down, use the clojure-mode in marmalade.
07:55	beardmigration	And just use lein to manage clojure.
07:55	babilen	beardmigration: How did you "manage" clojure until now?
07:56	babilen	ah ... riddell.us -- Yeah, essentially undo whatever is mentioned in there.
07:56	lazybot	The riddell.us tutorials are much more highly-ranked on Google than they deserve to be. They're old and way too complicated. If you're trying to install Clojure...don't! Instead, install Leiningen (https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/stable) and let it manage Clojure for you.there.
07:56	beardmigration	Might even try the version of lein the those @babilen repositories
07:57	beardmigration	I downloaded and put it in my path I think. It's all beginning to be a bit of blur. Must unpick and keep better notes this time.
07:57	beardmigration	Thanks all. Is there anyting else you recommend?
07:57	raek	chekc with lein version
07:57	raek	1.7.0 is the latest stable one, I think
07:58	babilen	beardmigration: I have no idea how well they integrate into LMDE as they also depend on clojure packages that might not be in LMDE. Ask in #linuxmint-help on irc.spotchat.org about that. (Or install pure Debian and I talk you through it in #debian) -- The standalone leiningen installation should work just fine though, but provides less integration with the complete system. (e.g. no bash-completion, no docs in /usr/share/docs/, ...)
07:59	beardmigration	I should install pure debian after mint's shenanigens - just time is limited and mint is working well in the main.
08:05	beardmigration	How does this look for debs on LDME:
08:05	beardmigration	sudo apt-cache show leiningen
08:05	beardmigration	Package: leiningen
08:05	beardmigration	Version: 1.6.1-1
08:05	beardmigration	Installed-Size: 1280
08:05	beardmigration	Maintainer: Debian Java Maintainers <pkg-java-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org>
08:05	beardmigration	Architecture: all
08:06	beardmigration	Depends: ant, clojure1.2, libbackport-util-concurrent-java, libclassworlds-java, libclucy-clojure, libjaxp1.3-java, liblucene2-java, libmaven-ant-tasks-java, libmaven2-core-java, libplexus-container-default-java, libplexus-interpolation-java, libplexus-utils-java, librobert-hooke-clojure, libwagon-java, openjdk-6-jre \| openjdk-7-jre \| sun-java6-jre
08:06	beardmigration	Recommends: rlwrap, clojure-contrib (>= 1.2.0)b
08:07	babilen	beardmigration: That is an old version of leiningen -- I packaged 1.7.0 some time ago
08:09	babilen	beardmigration: I would recommend to install leiningen via "lein self-install" for now as I have absolutely no idea if you can use my packages on LMDE
08:10	beardmigration	OK - although I can't see anything that's going to bork immediately in your dependencies.
08:11	beardmigration	They seem to be there in mint.
08:11	babilen	beardmigration: Use http://packages.debian.org/sid/leiningen (but you may keep the pieces if it breaks)
08:12	beardmigration	I will arrange them in the growing work-in-progress that I'm giving the working title of 'trying to execute my first clojure s-exp'.
08:13	beardmigration	actually I've already done that - it's the emacs bit that I want.
08:13	beardmigration	BTW does clojure-mode do auto-completion or anything like?
08:14	llasram	beardmigration: clojure-mode doesn't, but ac-slime does
09:55	choffstein	Is there a way to perform a map over a transient vector without making it persistent first?
09:57	stuartsierra	choffstein: I don't think so. Transients are only useful for building up a structure.
09:57	RickInGA	do any of the Clojure books talk about transients?
09:58	stuartsierra	RickInGA: Mine does, briefly. ;)
09:58	sadger	hello! have a problem loading contrib.repl-utils into my namespace it cant seem to find it when i do (use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils) im using the nailgun server for vim and yes the jar is on my classpath
09:58	RickInGA	cool, I will check it out!
09:58	vijaykiran	Guys, how can I debug/fix "NoSuchMethodError clojure.lang.Numbers.lt(II)Z clojure.data.json/write-json-string (json.clj:208)" ?
09:58	choffstein	stuartsierra: Maybe I can do a deep copy of the transient?
09:59	vijaykiran	It is coming from a lib I'm usin .. anyone has any pointers ?
09:59	stuartsierra	RickInGA: Full disclosure: it's in a chapter on "Performance" which is somewhat obsolete as of Clojure 1.3
09:59	stuartsierra	choffstein: I don't understand. But my guess is no.
10:01	choffstein	stuartsierra: well, I have a transient vector that I want to alter, but I need to use the data in the transient vector to figure out how to update it.
10:01	choffstein	so the update function is dependent on the internal data
10:03	stuartsierra	choffstein: Usually the problem with transients is that you're trying to use them differently from persistent data structures. Try writing your function with persistent data structures first.
10:03	choffstein	stuartsierra: I already wrote it with persistent data structures and now I am trying to make them transient :)
10:03	stuartsierra	ok
10:03	Kototama	hi, is there a way to specify which URL 'lein ring server' opens?
10:03	stuartsierra	sorry, I'm out of advice :)
10:04	Kototama	i changed the root with the context macro and i would like lein ring server to start at /mycontextpath instead of /
10:12	clgv	choffstein: since vectors are random access data structure and random accesses are possible on transient vectors you can define a map on transient vectors via (defn map-tv [f v] (map #(f (v %)) (range (count v))))
10:12	clgv	but the question that remains - do you really want to?
10:27	choffstein	clgv: Awesome. Thanks!
10:28	stuartsierra	At that point you've probably lost any performance benefit you were getting from using transients in the first place.
10:31	clgv	stuartsierra: probably.
10:33	napping	would that be any different from (defn map-tv [f v] (map #(f (v %)) (range (count v))))
10:33	napping	would that be any different from (defn map-tv [f v] (map f (persistent! v))), rather
10:34	clgv	napping: yes. he couldnt continue using 'conj! on v
10:35	clgv	napping: but I dont know whether it's worth it at all
10:35	napping	right, persisent! closes by side effect
10:36	clgv	the most performant implementation of map-tv would have to use a loop-recur, I think
10:36	napping	how about a build-tv which lets elements be computed from the vector so far?
10:37	napping	If "alter" means completely rebuild, why not close the one transient and start a new vector?
10:38	mk	I'm trying to learn clojure by writing a simple http server, but I'm not sure where to begin. Any help is appreciated.
10:39	napping	You know http and java sockets?
10:40	napping	maybe do some clojure programs involving concurrency without real network traffic to figure it out
10:40	mk	yes. I've chosen to write one because I've written this server in java, so really it's a port. I'm just not sure what it means to port...
10:41	clgv	mk: whats your goal? the server or delivering some content?
10:41	mk	I could just use clojure's various java hooks to do things (or just call methods I've already written), but I don't think that's the way to learn
10:41	stuartsierra	mk: All of the networking and I/O will be calls to Java code anyway. You'll learn about Java interop, but not much about the language itself.
10:41	clgv	mk: you could use ring to build a webpage.
10:41	mk	at the moment, it's just to make the server return a simple webpage containing all of my request headers etc.
10:42	napping	the point is to use clojure-style concurrency to manage multiple connections, right?
10:44	mk	napping: just a single connection. A http server covers a lot of ground in terms of the... boring but necessary parts of the language (string parsing, io, etc.)
10:45	napping	I'm not very experienced myself, but I think a lot of that stuff goes by calling to Java
10:45	napping	not that string parsing couldn't, but for http in particular there should be thoroughly tested libraries you'd prefer to use
10:46	stuartsierra	mk: most of the "boring" parts of Clojure are just Java interop
10:46	TimMc	mk: I would recommend instead trying to do some project that actually has a desirable end product.
10:46	stuartsierra	e.g. I/O, sockets
10:46	TimMc	mk: Otherwise you're going to have a hard time really seeing the language for what it is.
10:47	TimMc	(and people will constantly ask you why you're reimplementing X or Y :-P)
10:48	mk	TimMc: this project has one - request headers :) Then I can work up to file service, then a proxy, then a crawler.
10:48	TimMc	Let me put it a different way -- make something new.
10:49	mk	like what?
10:49	TimMc	Do you keep an ideas file anywhere? "I wish I had a ___"
10:49	TimMc	then pick one and write it
10:50	mk	"a http server written in clojure" :)
10:50	RickInGA	hehe
10:50	mk	that's literally in my file
10:51	napping	I think trying to use features of a new language to write a program you already understand is pretty reasonable as well
10:51	mk	is the main concern that it'll mostly be about java interop?
10:52	stuartsierra	mk: That's my concern. Not that an HTTP server written in pure Clojure wouldn't be interesting.
10:53	napping	If it only handles a single connection at a time, it will probably mostly be java interop
10:53	TimMc	mk: At first, you'll effectively be writing Java with Clojure syntax. It's not what I would recommend to a newcomer.
10:53	mk	I think one worry is that I'll end up using java idioms and so on, but I'm trying to make sure I avoid that, and I have to start somewhere
10:53	pjstadig	happy open source friday: is there a chance that http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-942 can get a look today?
10:53	stuartsierra	pjstadig: it's been discussed already
10:54	fmardini	Hello, a noob question about namespaces, I have two files starting with (ns foo.core) each def-ining stuff, but can't see things between the two
10:54	clgv	mk: you could also start to learn clojure via 4clojure.com
10:54	stuartsierra	fmardini: you can't do that.
10:54	TimMc	fmardini: One namespace per file and vice versa.
10:54	napping	which may not be that bad, I learned a bit writing a simple swing program, and going "hey, I can use a doto here", and making some macros and stuff
10:54	fmardini	thanks guys
10:55	TimMc	fmardini: and there's a strict correspondence between file name and path and the namespace name.
10:55	pjstadig	cool
10:56	pjstadig	stuartsierra: i'd be glad to answer questions, hop on skype, pair, or whatever
10:56	mk	clgv: thanks for the link - that site looks good. I'd like to try a proper project though, since I think it makes anything much easier to learn.
10:56	fmardini	TimMc: thanks, makes sense!
10:57	stuartsierra	pjstadig: thanks. I am not working on tickets today, but I will pass the word on.
10:57	clgv	mk: well the easy tasks at 4clojure provdie a (non complete) roundtrip through language basics. so it could be a good start
10:57	TimMc	mk: In general, +1 on having a proper project, yes.
10:57	mk	how are events handled in clojure, since it's a "timeless" functional language?
10:58	mk	and threads, for that matter
10:58	TimMc	mk: http://www.clojure.org/state is a good introduction to Clojure state management on the theory side of things.
10:58	mk	clgv: yeah - I'll definitely look through them
10:59	TimMc	in practical terms, you use reference types in transactions http://www.clojure.org/refs or as atomically mutable cells (atoms, agents)
11:00	uvtc	TimMC: thanks for your help yesterday regarding trying to package a script which would take command line args. Just noticed that I managed to totally miss where you wrote I needed a "-main" fn.
11:02	TimMc	haha, OK
11:03	mk	I think I understand a few of those ideas (I watched a bunch of talks by Rich at http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey ). I get the ontological/platonic distinctions, but I'm not sure how that works in practice since I see the REPL as a calculator (where the process ends after evaluation)
11:05	TimMc	mk: So for example, you could have some vars pointing to ref objects that contain global application state.
11:05	mk	is that the proper way to see the REPL?
11:05	TimMc	hold on
11:05	mk	ok
11:06	TimMc	mk: Then, from multiple threads, it is easy to safely hammer on the refs in (dosync ...) blocks without worrying about locks.
11:07	TimMc	mk: Sure, the REPL is just a dev tool. You can launch an application from it, though -- and then muck with it while it is running. Much more than a calculator.
11:09	mk	what I mean by calculator is that... this is the only place that I really see the process living. In java, it lives in various threads, and then runs through code top-to-bottom. In javascript, it waits for new blocks of javascript to be handed to it, via script-tag loads, or events.
11:10	napping	in the repl you get an answer when your expression is done, but there may still be other threads and things running
11:10	mk	in clojure, it seems that the process waits around for me to hit enter at the REPL
11:10	mk	napping: what causes them to start?
11:11	napping	if you start them
11:11	napping	or maybe if loading a file starts them
11:11	mk	sure, but say I have a gui app (or a server) - threads can start on events, yes?
11:11	TimMc	sure
11:12	mk	and does clojure magically start threads when it notices that it can do so?
11:12	TimMc	Nothing is magic.
11:12	mk	s/magic/abstraction
11:13	napping	you can load a GUI app, and poke at it with the repl while using the windows
11:13	TimMc	I mean, you can spawn off threads whenever you like.
11:14	napping	I usually ran my little time tracking program like that, because I'd never gotten around to putting a GUI for doing things like "oops, subtract 5 minutes from this timer and add it to the other"
11:14	mk	how do I disconnect from a given thread of execution? in java, you use thread.start, which returns control to me. Is that the way in clojure, too?
11:14	napping	that's one way
11:14	mk	are there better ways?
11:14	napping	clojure functions end up being java objects that implement runnable
11:15	napping	so you can make a (Thread. (fn [] ...)) and later (.start it)
11:15	TimMc	&(doc future)
11:15	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block, un... https://refheap.com/paste/918
11:16	napping	agents and futures end up using threads as well
11:16	mk	what does it mean to invoke the body?
11:17	TimMc	call it
11:17	TimMc	err, run it
11:17	mk	is it a good idea to conceive of that as "them" typing the expression into their own REPL?
11:17	TimMc	Nope, because the results are not printed.
11:18	TimMc	and all the expressions are read at the same time, then compiled and evaluated together later
11:18	TimMc	so it's not really a Read-Eval-Print Loop.
11:18	mk	not to my repl of course - but can I imagine that I've told another person connected to the REPL to just execute that code whenever a specific thing happens?
11:19	TimMc	sure?
11:20	mk	why the question mark? will that view get me into trouble later?
11:20	napping	It may be misleading about a lot of details of how and when names get looked up, and various other things
11:20	mk	napping: hmm. In what ways?
11:21	TimMc	Well, it ignores things like how (binding ...) works, and shared refs, and blocking....
11:22	mk	what do you mean? (err, perhaps pick the easiest example)
11:22	TimMc	mk: Here's an example. (def x 5) followed by (* x x) will work fine in the REPL, but as a function body (fn [] (def x 5) (* x x)) it will not (besides the terrible idea of putting a def inside a defn).
11:24	TimMc	err, bad example, that works because of def-hoisting...
11:24	napping	how did you expect it to break?
11:24	mk	I don't know enough about lisp to see how that works - I still have some problems understanding how defs or scope of defs works
11:25	TimMc	napping: Unable to resolve x. But the compiler plucks out the def during AST-building time.
11:25	TimMc	mk: defs aren't scoped in Clojure.
11:25	napping	anyway, threads are more fundamental than repls
11:26	mk	napping: a repl is just another thread, right?
11:26	napping	so you have multiple threads running code, and some are running repls
11:26	mk	I'm not sure what a def does, aside from the fact that I have to use it in certain examples that I've typed out...
11:26	TimMc	mk: (require '[clojure.string :as str]) and then (str/join \, (range 5)) works fine on the REPL, but not inside a fn body.
11:27	napping	Is there an easy way to get multiple repls in the same process?
11:27	napping	I don't know how to manually start a swank listener thread
11:28	TimMc	mk: def creates and a var (a mutable cell of sorts) and interns it into a namespace (makes a mapping in the namespace from a symbol to the Var object)
11:28	TimMc	s/and a var/a var/
11:28	TimMc	defn is short for def + fn
11:29	mk	what's a cell, and internment?
11:30	clgv	mk: I would suggest that you read one of the good introductory books. That will get you started much faster.
11:31	jcrossley3	mk: coming from java, it's best to think of vars as ThreadLocals
11:32	mk	clgv: I have, but if you have a suggestion for a chapter that explains what those concepts particularly well, I'd like that
11:32	clgv	mk: which one did you read?
11:33	TimMc	mk: "cell" and "interning" are not Clojure technical terms -- they're more general programming terms
11:34	mk	clgv: parts of sicp a while back, and a few other books for lisp. I don't recall the names of the ones for clojure, but I could try to search my history if it's important
11:34	dnolen	mk: I suggest not thinking about the details of vars too much for a long time - def & defn simple associate values to names in a namespace. how it works is mostly irrelevant for day to day programming.
11:35	clgv	mk: not that important. my start was "Programming Clojure"
11:36	napping	I've read "Joy of Clojure" and the reference at clojure.org, and I don't think the process of reading and resolving symbols was explained very precisely
11:36	mk	are namespaces structured in any way? (for example, in javascript, prototypes check their parents for the existence of a var, and java has a shallow instance/static "namespace" pair)
11:37	napping	Did I miss something that would explain where #'name is needed to reflect redefined things promptly?
11:39	dnolen	mk: namespaces are just simple mappings of names to values - there's little else that they do.
11:40	dnolen	napping: that's usually never necessary - sometimes required to allow redefinition when working with Java libs.
11:42	napping	I'm redefining with slim functions that are called in ring or Swing handlers
11:42	mk	dnolen: if a name doesn't exist in the namespace, what happens?
11:42	napping	Sometimes I need to write (#'foo ...) instead of (foo ...) to immediately get the new behavior after reevaluating a (defn foo ...)
11:42	dnolen	mk: an error
11:43	napping	I think reading a painstakingly precise description of name resolution about five times would probably do it
11:43	mk	dnolen: ok, so there's no parent namespace to check - it's all very flat
11:43	dnolen	mk: yep
11:45	napping	I'm confused that (= (resolve 'x) #'x) - at least a the repl
11:45	mk	ok, so I have a namespace N, which is very much a map. Now I call def, and this has the sideeffect (?) of setting a key to a value
11:46	napping	mk: for ordinary purposes, you write (def x ...), and now x has been defined and later lines in the file can use it
11:47	mk	ok. And it's not a rule of replacement?
11:47	napping	I'm asking for pointers to thorough descriptions so I can get edge cases involving reloading code in a running program.
11:48	dnolen	napping: you should never need #'foo as far as I know.
11:48	napping	(a filename in the compiler would do, if you think that's best)
11:48	tmciver	napping: not sure if it's been mentioned yet but if you update your code you must (use :reload 'your-ns) in the repl.
11:50	napping	:reload sounds like an important thing, but isn't that if a file is changed?
11:51	tmciver	napping: yes, that's the point. If you change a file you're working on the changes are not automatically reflected at the repl. In fact simply calling (use 'your-ns) is not enough; you must use :reload (or :reload-all).
11:51	napping	I'm using C-x C-e to feed new definitions to SLIME
11:52	dnolen	tmciver: not necessary with C-x C-e
11:52	tmciver	dnolen: true. I always forget about that!
11:53	tmciver	dnolen: of course, that's only for emacs users.
11:55	napping	this first example might be a ring thing, but if I (defroutes pages ...), then (def app (-> pages wrap-params)) and use ring-serve to serve app
11:56	dnolen	tmciver: that applies to any environment that supports evaluating forms one at a time
11:56	dnolen	napping: yes that's what I was saying, Java libs tend to be static, you need the var to work around it.
11:56	napping	a change in the pages isn't reflected unless I also redefine app
11:57	napping	but if app is defined as (-> #'pages wrap-params ...), it is picked up immediately
11:57	dnolen	napping: yep
11:58	napping	hmm, serve expands into a use of var
11:58	tmciver	dnolen: are you saying C-x C-e works in environments other than emacs? Which ones?
11:58	napping	I did not realize it was a macro
11:58	napping	tmciver: the pasting a single form into the repl bit, not the exact keystroke
11:59	napping	If I'd been running a clojure.jar directly and retyping a defn it could be the same story
12:00	napping	dnolen: I know you can "need the var to work around it", I don't understand enough about how symbols usually work or how they differ from #' to see how that works around it
12:00	napping	though I might have been confused by thinking ring-serve's serve was an ordinary function
12:01	TimMc	tmciver: It's about eval'ing top-level forms sequentially, not the command itself.
12:01	tmciver	napping: I think I'm missing something. You can always paste code into a repl. what's that got to do with C-x C-e?
12:02	napping	that if I'm redefining code by something like pasting code into a repl, any problems with changes showing up has nothing to do with :reload ing file
12:08	napping	or does it? so far I've only been redefining things in a leaf namespace
12:12	dnolen	napping: it's less complicated then you think. if you give ring a value, that will get hard coded as the handler - there's no good way to get Jetty to update that value. By passing a var you're just adding a level of indirection. Jetty will extract the value inside the var everytime
12:12	tmciver	napping: not sure. I typically just (use ...) (in the slime repl) the code I'm working on.
12:13	TimMc	I think you're talking past each other.
12:14	napping	I think I get it now - when code containing a symbol is compiled, the symbol is resolved now, and if it resolves to a var the compiled code will get the value from the var when it's executed
12:14	dnolen	napping: yep
12:14	napping	so function bodies mentioning def'd thing tend to work because they read the var when they are called
12:14	dnolen	napping: no that would be slow
12:14	napping	The wrapped handler didn't update because it was just an expression evalauted at def time
12:15	napping	How does (def x 1) (defn test [] x) (def x 2) (test) pick up 2 then?
12:16	dnolen	napping: I'm not familiar with the details of that machinery
12:16	napping	I don't see why it would be particularly slow for a function refering to global var to read from the var when it runs
12:17	napping	a bit slower, but a single field access shouldn't be horrible
12:19	napping	#' helps when something is evaluated right away (like my (def app ...)), because it makes the difference between the callable thing that's getting wrapped being the particular fn the name maps to at the moment, and the var itself (acting as a callable thing)
12:23	tmciver	napping: it's been a while since I've looked at ring but there is middleware that I believe solves your problem: ring.middleware.reload (https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring)
12:24	dnolen	napping: slow is relative - but in tight loops any indirection kills perf
12:25	ibdknox	napping: if you used Noir you would get reloading for free
12:25	napping	It seems like I need to read Compiler.java for the full story
12:26	napping	tmciver: I think that handles just about everything but my problem :)
12:28	napping	which was that the top level handler had been sufficiently evaluated that no namespaces or even vars were consulted
12:28	napping	works pretty nicely for changes deeper in the code
12:29	tmciver	napping: it sounds like you might be doing some voodoo that I'm not familiar with. Don't think I can help.
12:29	dnolen	napping: I never use #' except setting a dynamic handler for Ring. that the only issue that you have as far as I can tell. I agree it's useful to dig into Compiler.java, but it's just implementation details to support traditional Lisp programming. ClojureScript doesn't have these implementation issues because JS is already very dynamic.
12:30	napping	ibdknox: that's reloading from files, right?
12:32	napping	dnolen: Do e.g. Scheme and Common Lisp agree enough on things like how interning and symbol resolution work that it's precise to say "traditional Lisp programming"?
12:32	dnolen	napping: they agree on the important point - redefinition should work and the good implementations make sure that's not slow
12:33	mk	what's the documentation command?
12:33	napping	It's not obvious to me there's one right answer to the question of exactly what should be affected by redefinition
12:34	napping	If you tried hard enough, you could track which functions had a hand in computing integers, and re-evaluate them too :)
12:34	beffbernard	Is there any way to use the hostname url for a noir/hiccup app? (include-js …) and (include-css …) I'm finding that these are relative to the route.
12:34	dnolen	napping: my experience as a programmer is that redefinition in Common Lisp ad Scheme and Clojure - "just works", barring the various host-y things in Clojure
12:37	hiredman	clojure-py seems to be adopting :static semantics for vars that are not :dynamic, so redefintion won't "just work" there
12:37	hiredman	(it's like they don't even care)
12:38	ibdknox	napping, it's reloading from anything
12:39	ibdknox	though I haven't been paying attention to exactly what your use case is
12:39	napping	hiredman: isn't static already default?
12:39	hiredman	no
12:39	hiredman	:static links directly, not through a var
12:40	ibdknox	beffbernard: just put / in front of them?
12:40	hiredman	makes redefintion a pain
12:40	hiredman	or did, dunno if :static is still supported
12:40	napping	doesn't seem to do anything
12:41	napping	ibdknox: my case is that I'm pushing new definitions through slime, and sometimes they are not picked up
12:41	ibdknox	napping: try noir
12:41	ibdknox	you can add defpages to your heart's content
12:41	ibdknox	or redef them
12:41	ibdknox	or whatever you want
12:41	beffbernard	ibdknow: Worked, thanks
12:41	ibdknox	the only thing I can't do deterministically is remove them
12:41	hiredman	(def ^:static foo (fn [x] 2)) (defn bar [] (foo)) (def foo (constantly 4)) (bar)
12:41	ibdknox	gotta run
12:41	ibdknox	back in a bit
12:42	napping	It's working with a #', but I'll be trying Noir eventually
12:42	dnolen	:static does do anything anymore as far as I know
12:43	dnolen	doesn't
12:45	dnolen	napping: your issue is entirely about resolution not surviving the interop barrier - Jetty don't know nuttin' about Clojure.
12:49	napping	because of interop, the handlers have to evaluate down to some object that can be handed off
12:51	napping	but I think you can already see the core of the problem in this:
12:51	napping	(def f identity) (def op (comp f inc)) (def f double) (op 1)
12:52	napping	why u no double?
12:54	dnolen	napping: there's no problem there - think about that some more.
12:54	napping	I understand now, but that's why my redefinitions were not picked up
12:55	mk	what does (fn [[x & xs]] ... do?
12:55	dnolen	napping: no, that's a different issue entirely.
12:55	TimMc	mk: Destructuring of arguments.
12:55	dnolen	napping: not related at all
12:55	TimMc	x is bound to (first ...) of first arg, xs to (rest ...) of first arg
12:57	mk	& is the first arg?
12:57	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: is in this context
12:58	mk	thanks lazybot
12:58	RickInGA	the & indicates there may be a variable number of args
12:59	mk	I don't follow why having a vector in the arguments vector... does that.
12:59	napping	dnolen: no? I can also get the code to behave as expected by eta-expanding (def app (-> pages wrap-params)) to (defn app [& args] (apply (-> pages wrap-params)) args)
13:00	napping	as hoped
13:01	RickInGA	mk: (defn add-a-bunch [x & xs]
13:01	RickInGA	(apply + x xs))
13:01	RickInGA	(add-a-bunch 1 2 3 4 5)
13:01	dnolen	napping: like I said think it about it so more
13:01	dnolen	some
13:02	RickInGA	mk x is bound to 1, xs has '(2 3 4 5)
13:02	napping	I think I understand what's going on there
13:02	napping	when the higher order function is applied, the arguments evaluate to a value, which is what gets wrapped up in the returned closure
13:02	napping	and after that no redefinition I do will replace it
13:03	TimMc	mk: fn is a macro, it does all the fancy syntax -> boring code conversion.
13:03	mk	what gets bound to &?
13:03	TimMc	nothing
13:03	RickInGA	mk: the & just indicates that xs has a variable number of arguments, it doesn't actualy take a value
13:03	mk	is & the same type of thing as x?
13:04	RickInGA	mk: if the function takes [x xs] it can only take 2 params. if it has [x & xs] it takes 1 or more
13:04	mk	the language might have been designed where [x :foo xs] does the same?
13:06	TimMc	sure
13:06	napping	,(let [& 3] (+ & 2))
13:06	clojurebot	5
13:06	TimMc	mk: Technically, it's not even the language -- it's the macro.
13:07	TimMc	Macros are how you extend the language. :-)
13:07	TimMc	*it's the fn macro
13:08	mdeboard	man mount
13:08	mdeboard	oop
13:29	harrison	man mount lol
13:41	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: heads up: lein-swank 1.4.1 tries to require [swank.util.sys :as util] in jack_in.clj, and it doesn't exist causing jack-in to fail
13:42	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: oh yeah; I have a fix locally but haven't pushed it out; thanks for the reminder
13:48	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: no worries, quick question for you: does lein compile call lein javac first by default? if not, is there something I can add to my project.clj to make it do that?
14:12	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: I assume it's just an ordering thing right? javac is called first, then compile?
14:12	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: sounds like it, but I couldn't say for sure
14:12	technomancy	I've never used javac
14:17	vijaykiran	Hi all - how can make lein to fetch the latest snapshots ?
14:20	technomancy	vijaykiran: the underlying maven API doesn't expose a way for leiningen to do that
14:20	technomancy	you probably want to use checkout dependencies for that though
14:22	solidsnack	Hello. I have recently installed clojure with homebrew on OS X. I can not load the math contribs
14:23	solidsnack	Do I need to add something to Leinigen?
14:23	solidsnack	I mean, to project.clj?
14:29	tmciver	~contrib ;; solidsnack
14:29	clojurebot	Huh?
14:29	tmciver	~contrib
14:29	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
14:30	tmciver	solidsnack: looking at that page, it looks like you might want clojure.math.numeric-tower
14:30	vijaykiran	technomancy: ok - thx
14:30	solidsnack	tmciver: And I put it in, uhm, project.clj?
14:30	solidsnack	It doesn't come stock?
14:31	tmciver	solidsnack: no. Here's the github page for it: https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower
14:32	tmciver	I didn't see it on clojars.org
14:32	TimMc	I don't think any core jars end up on clojars.
14:32	TimMc	Some other Maven repo instead.
14:33	ibdknox	they end up on maven central, don't they?
14:33	tmciver	TimMc: where do you get the lein dependency string for such a lib?
14:34	TimMc	Good question. Should be in the readme!
14:34	TimMc	but [org.clojure/math.numeric-tower "1.3.0"] is my guess
14:35	tmciver	solidsnack: try putting that ^ as an entry for :dependencies in project.clj
14:39	solidsnack	tmciver: Found it -- http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.clojure/math.numeric-tower/0.0.1
14:39	tmciver	cool. Good to know.
14:40	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: pushed out lein-swank 1.4.2
14:41	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: cool. I made a sample project I can reproduce that bug with now
14:41	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: it seems to be related to whether or not lein deps runs or not
14:42	technomancy	oh yeah, deps has to clear out the classes dir; maybe it's running too late
14:43	sorenmacbeth	want me to throw this project up on github and file an issue?
14:43	technomancy	please
14:43	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: ok
14:46	solidsnack	I can not figure out how to load this math library in the REPL...
14:47	solidsnack	(:use org.clojure.math.numeric-tower)
14:47	solidsnack	(:use clojure.math.numeric-tower)
14:47	solidsnack	None of these work.
14:47	tmciver	(use 'org.clojure.math.numeric-tower)
14:48	tmciver	Or better yet: (require '[org.clojure.math.numeric-tower :as math])
14:48	tmciver	then prefix the functions with math/
14:48	tmciver	when you call them.
14:49	tmciver	solidsnack: Also, make sure you run 'lein deps' after updating your project.clj.
14:52	solidsnack	tmciver: Yes, it has placed it in a jar in lib
14:53	solidsnack	I can load it with (:use ...) but not (use ...)
14:53	solidsnack	However, I can not use the function.
14:53	solidsnack	(expt 2 2) does not work, for example
14:54	solidsnack	Here is what I'd like to do: (def the-distant-future (- (Math/pow 2 31) 1))
14:54	tmciver	solidsnack: (:use ...) can only be used in the ns form.
14:54	solidsnack	But using Clojure's math libraries instead.
14:54	solidsnack	tmciver: Oh, hmm.
14:54	TimMc	solidsnack: :use is a keyword, use is a function
14:54	solidsnack	Well, I am using `lein repl' to try these things.
14:54	solidsnack	I see.
14:54	solidsnack	(:use ...) evaluates to nil
14:54	TimMc	&(:use {:use 5})
14:54	tmciver	solidsnack: (Math/pow ...) is Java interop; not the function from the math lib.
14:54	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:55	muhoo	if i were going to chart stuff, what do you recommend? jfreechart?
14:55	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: done - https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/428
14:56	solidsnack	tmciver: Right.
14:56	solidsnack	tmciver: So, I'd like to stop using it :)
14:56	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: you have a workaround for now though, right?
14:56	solidsnack	(use 'org.clojure.math.numeric-tower)
14:56	solidsnack	This fails, so I have some other problem, I guess.
14:57	hiredman	why the org?
14:57	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: yeah, I just run it twice when it fails
14:58	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: or run lein deps first I guess, to make sure that deps doesn't run in the middle
14:58	TimMc	solidsnack: You're getting Maven group/artifact names and library namespaces confused.
14:58	TimMc	They are quite often similar but not teh same.
14:58	solidsnack	Oh...
15:00	solidsnack	(use 'clojure.math.numeric-tower)
15:00	solidsnack	Okay, that works fine.
15:00	solidsnack	Thanks everyone.
15:00	TimMc	solidsnack: And in your ns block, that's (:use [clojure.math.numeric-tower :only (pow)])
15:01	TimMc	(Only use :use with :only, for the sake of sanity.)
15:04	Iceland_jack	TimMc: that's beautifully palindromic ;)
15:04	Iceland_jack	> Only use :use … :only …
15:05	technomancy	more of a chiasm really
15:05	emezeske	TIL: chiasm
15:13	shaolynn	I'm trying to run a noir/aleph app using "lein ring server", but I get the following error:
15:13	shaolynn	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :consumer of protocol: #'lamina.core.channel/ChannelProtocol found for class: nil
15:13	shaolynn	it happens when I try to send a message via websocket
15:13	shaolynn	has anyone seen this problem before?
15:14	hiredman	the code reloading the noir does won't work nicely with protocols
15:14	shaolynn	hiredman: I'm not sure I understand. Can you please elaborate?
15:17	shaolynn	hiredman: Do you know of a good workaround?
15:17	hiredman	shaolynn: code reloading in general doesn't work nicely with protocols, you end up defining a "new" protocol and have a bunch of objects which implement the "old" protocol
15:17	hiredman	depends
15:18	shaolynn	Here's my server.clj file:
15:18	shaolynn	https://gist.github.com/1960995
15:19	shaolynn	Is there anything I can do differently to get ring to run this thing?
15:19	dnolen	shaolynn: don't use ring reloading
15:19	shaolynn	Ok, I'll try that. Thx!!!
15:20	dnolen	shaolynn: it does mean you'll need to provide the handler as a var if you want to compile incrementally and see changes
15:20	technomancy	ring reloading doesn't attempt to just reload what's changed?
15:20	shaolynn	For now I just need to get this thing deployed.
15:20	dnolen	technomancy: it does but pretty bad in the presence of deftype/record/protocol/interface/etc
15:21	shaolynn	I removed "wrap-reload", but I still get the same problem.
15:21	technomancy	dnolen: sure, I'm just surprised that it would complain about an internal aleph protocol
15:21	dnolen	shaolynn: then it's probably something else, unexpected nil
15:21	technomancy	usually "don't use protocols" suffices; that makes it look like the advice needs to be upgraded to "don't use libraries that use protocols"
15:23	TimMc	On the menu today: Nil Surprise
15:23	dnolen	technomancy: I'd change that to don't use library features that reload namespaces on save.
15:23	dnolen	or file changes
15:24	technomancy	interactive development is way more valuable than protocols are
15:24	shaolynn	dnolen: I'm super new to this - the problem happens when I try to send a message via websockets. What could be causing this to break with "lein ring server" but not "lein run"?
15:25	dnolen	technomancy: they are less convenient, but I haven't run into much trouble with them myself. In more dynamic hosts a non-issue, CLJS FTW ;)
15:25	technomancy	hm; well I have yet to run into a case where multimethods were a bottleneck
15:25	dnolen	shaolynn: no idea, makes sense to ask on the Aleph ML
15:26	technomancy	and the uniformity of everything being a var is wonderful
15:26	dnolen	technomancy: we've gone over this before multimethods rock :) But lots of cases where they are too slow.
15:26	technomancy	dnolen: right; just saying I'm happy that I've never found myself in any of those cases.
15:38	RickInGA	~method_missing
15:38	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
15:38	pjstadig	,(= 4M 4)
15:38	clojurebot	false
15:39	pjstadig	^ is that intentional?
15:39	pjstadig	it was true in 1.2
15:40	pjstadig	,(= 4N 4)
15:40	TimMc	&(== 4M 4)
15:40	clojurebot	true
15:40	lazybot	⇒ true
15:40	hiredman	:(
15:40	TimMc	pjstadig: == is not =
15:40	pjstadig	true
15:40	TimMc	are you sure it was =?
15:40	TimMc	,clojure-version
15:40	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
15:40	pjstadig	but why is 4N = to 4
15:41	pjstadig	and why was 4N = 4 in 1.2
15:41	TimMc	&(class 4N)
15:41	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.BigInt
15:41	hiredman	M is floating point
15:41	pjstadig	well BigDecimal
15:41	TimMc	because 4N and 4 are both integer types
15:41	hiredman	shrug
15:41	pjstadig	in 1.2 (= 4N 4) was true in 1.3+ it is false
15:42	dnolen	,(= 1 1.0)
15:42	clojurebot	false
15:42	dnolen	,(== 1 1.0)
15:42	clojurebot	true
15:42	dnolen	pjstadig: changed along w/ the other numeric stuff
15:43	TimMc	pjstadig: (= 4N 4) => true in 1.3
15:43	TimMc	do you mean M?
15:43	pjstadig	hehe
15:43	TimMc	pjstadig: (This would be even more confusing if we were speaking instead of typing.)
15:46	pjstadig	ok well that makes sense
16:05	pjstadig	hmm...maybe the issue is somewhere else
16:05	pjstadig	we have a bunch of tests that are failing now because it is trying to compare a bigdecimal to a long
16:06	pjstadig	but i'm not sure why we have bigdecimals in the first place
16:06	mefesto	I have a clojure program that I'd like to run as a service. Is upstart a good choice or is something else preferred?
16:08	pipeline	upstart is an init daemon
16:08	pipeline	you probably want a processmonitor + init script to start the monitor
16:08	pipeline	say, monit, or supervisord
16:08	mefesto	pipeline: i'll look into those. thanks for the tip!
16:10	hugod	I here systemd is up and coming for that too
16:14	TimMc	Tanuki... can't figure out if there's a free version for FL/OSS projects.
16:19	pjstadig	apparently JDBC only supports BigDecimal even though our columns are BigInts
16:19	pjstadig	our tests passed fine with 1.2 because of looser equality comparisons, and now they fail
16:19	RickInGA	wow, good to know
16:20	pjstadig	really annoying
16:20	ibdknox	the big decimal stuff really sucks :(
16:34	hagna	man org.apache.commons.exec sheesh I really need an example of what I want to do
16:34	doug	how can i have a sequence of forms evaled, like in a block?
16:34	doug	like whatever the body of a let is called...
16:34	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
16:34	TimMc	clojurebot: forget like whatever the body of a let \|is\| called...
16:34	clojurebot	I forgot that like whatever the body of a let is called...
16:35	TimMc	stupid bot
16:35	doug	nice
16:35	mefesto	doug: wrap them in a (do ...) form?
16:36	doug	mefesto++
16:36	doug	yup
17:00	hagna	how do I init an InputStream? (InputStream. ) gives an instantiation error
17:02	TimMc	hagna: I think that's an interface or abstract class.
17:02	hagna	(java.io.InputStream. ) does the same
17:03	hagna	TinMc: not sure what you mean anyway
17:04	tmciver	hagna: you can't directly instantiate an Interface or abstract class. you'll have to look for a concrete implementation to instantiate.
17:04	_ulises	hagna: what do you need an InputStream for?
17:05	tmciver	hagna: try a FileInputStream maybe? See: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/io/InputStream.html
17:07	hagna	_ulises: to pass it to pumpHandler of apache.commons.exec and interact with a subprocess's stdin and stdout
17:08	hagna	tmciver: ok that's good to know; I wonder which concrete implentation I want
17:09	_ulises	hagna: fair enough, but keep in mind that InputStream is an abstract class (I believe) so you need to instantiate a concrete class such as FileInputStream if you want to read from a file
17:11	hagna	_ulises: ok got it. I need the type that will let me send strings from clojure
17:12	_ulises	hagna: interactively?
17:14	hagna	_ulises: yeah basically
17:18	_ulises	hagna: perhaps there's some useful stuff in clojure.java.io
17:18	TimMc	hagna: Without providing the bigger picture, you're going to get misleading help.
17:19	hagna	TimMc: ok then let me try the big picture I'm trying to get more familiar with clojure by writing a bot to play zork over irc
17:20	TimMc	and you want some Apache util to pump streams back and forth?
17:20	technomancy	hagna: feel free to steal liberally from https://github.com/technomancy/mire
17:21	hagna	TinMc: org.apache.commons.exec is for spawning the process and talking to stdin and out. so yes
17:21	hagna	technomancy: thanks I saw that the other day
17:26	ibdknox	holy shit
17:26	ibdknox	http://www.wired.com/
17:27	ibdknox	that game programming header is an article on the cljs game editor I did
17:27	hiredman	nice
17:28	technomancy	webmonkey is a wired subsidiary?
17:28	technomancy	did not know that
17:28	technomancy	congrats
17:29	ibdknox	technomancy: they apparently got bought a couple years ago
17:37	tmciver	ibdknox: wow, they picked that up fast!
17:39	ibdknox	tmciver: yeah, I'm a little surprised
17:57	zzach	Server socket at port 12345 ist defined with (def server-socket (new java.net.ServerSocket 12345)) and (def client-socket (. server-socket accept)) . First connection to this socket is working, second connection is hanging. Is it possible to set an option to refuse the connection for the second and further connection attempts?
18:20	scriptor	hmm, homebrew is hanging up on the lein self-install part
18:20	scriptor	anyone else having this problem?
18:20	ibdknox	don't use homebrew to install lein
18:21	scriptor	:(
18:22	ibdknox	I ran into the same thing
18:22	ibdknox	ended up uninstalling it and just doing it from the repo
18:22	ibdknox	so much easier
18:22	scriptor	so just downloading the lein script?
18:22	ibdknox	yep
18:22	muhoo	ibdknox is famous!
18:23	ibdknox	hah
18:23	technomancy	wait, what's wrong with homebrew?
18:23	ibdknox	top of HN is way more exposure than wired is I think, actually
18:23	technomancy	I always tell people to use whatever they're already using to install stuff
18:23	muhoo	HM is certainly cooler
18:23	technomancy	(unless it's macports)
18:23	muhoo	HN
18:24	technomancy	if it's macports then "you are using macports" is a more immediate problem than "you don't have leiningen installed"
18:24	muhoo	wired was super hip in like 1995
18:25	RickInGA	is the story on wired.com right now?
18:26	RickInGA	ah, see it, nm
18:26	clojurebot	Huh?
18:26	ibdknox	it might just be that wired traffic doesn't click through
18:26	RickInGA	I am watching the inventing on principle right now, it is amazing... I can't wait to see what you did
18:28	ibdknox	I built his game editor :)
18:31	RickInGA	I like his binary search editor... so procedural... maybe I should go back to c#
18:32	technomancy	you might want to store tracing values as metadata on the function, but that might just get cluttered
18:38	ibdknox	technomancy: it wasn't clear to me how often I would benefit from having what he showed with the binary search
18:38	ibdknox	I don't have many free vars like that, and they don't change...
18:39	ibdknox	would you just show the result of that scope?
18:39	RickInGA	with recursive functions, it would be nice to see what gets returned each time through
18:39	technomancy	yeah, also for reductions
18:40	ibdknox	it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to build
18:40	ibdknox	the only thing I have trouble with is knowing what to show
18:41	technomancy	and where
18:41	ibdknox	yeah
18:41	technomancy	I'm not too keen on the side-by-side approach
18:41	ibdknox	you'd want it inline?
18:41	RickInGA	I think it would get messy inline
18:41	ibdknox	we tried that at msft, it didn't work very well
18:41	technomancy	oh yeah?
18:41	ibdknox	it did when you were at a breakpoint though
18:42	RickInGA	I get furstrated when intellesense covers up something I am trying to typee
18:42	technomancy	RickInGA: I'd put it after EOL
18:42	technomancy	but that would get ugly if it wrapped
18:42	RickInGA	docable window?
18:42	RickInGA	dockable
18:42	technomancy	I've never seen that done well
18:43	ibdknox	I had a very cool solution to all of this
18:43	ibdknox	I dunno how well it would work for Clojure though
18:43	RickInGA	The repl is great for learning because you type, run, see
18:44	ibdknox	the structure of clojure code is very different than C# and VB
18:44	RickInGA	this takes repl to a new degree
18:44	technomancy	ibdknox: it's nice that let-bound stuff usually has one binding per line
18:44	technomancy	but function parameters don't have that property
18:44	ibdknox	yeah
18:45	ibdknox	I think if I were going to do it, my first pass would be the side-by-side
18:45	RickInGA	in Victor's video, he had 2 parameters, which were in 2 lines on the display
18:45	technomancy	it definitely makes sense as a starting point
18:45	RickInGA	then he skipped a line before his variable declarations
18:45	ibdknox	I'm not sure we have sufficiently good UI capabilities in either emacs or VIM to do anything really cool
18:45	ibdknox	that's one thing I do miss about the team I was on
18:45	ibdknox	the editor was WPF
18:46	ibdknox	we could literally try whatever the hell we wanted
18:46	technomancy	yeah, if it doesn't work over SSH I'm not interested
18:46	jodaro	i need to register for clojure west
18:46	jodaro	which means i need a friend
18:46	ibdknox	jodaro: yes you do
18:46	ibdknox	Chris Granger will do
18:46	jodaro	excellent
18:46	ibdknox	though, if someone else wants it it would actually save them money
18:46	RickInGA	yeah, watching victors video the first couple minutes I was thinking that he rebuilt the zaml editor
18:46	jodaro	ok
18:46	RickInGA	use me
18:46	RickInGA	Rick Hall
18:47	RickInGA	I don't have any clojure friends :)
18:47	jodaro	ok rick
18:48	RickInGA	do you need any more info from me, or a referral?
18:48	nlogax	keep your enemies clojure
18:49	ibdknox	should just need your name
18:49	ibdknox	~rimshot
18:49	clojurebot	Badum, tish
18:49	jodaro	looks like thats it
18:49	RickInGA	~orm
18:49	clojurebot	Object-Relational Mappers are the Vietnam of computer science.
18:49	RickInGA	I love that one!
18:49	jodaro	i used your name and it let me in
18:50	jodaro	Your registration is complete.
18:50	jodaro
18:50	RickInGA	cool
18:50	ibdknox	RickInGA: having written a couple now, it's true
18:50	RickInGA	I liked SubSonic for .net
18:50	RickInGA	I want to check out Massive, which is by the same guy, Rob Connery
18:51	jodaro	ORM and webapp frameworks
18:51	RickInGA	then, of course, i do want to check out Korma
18:51	jodaro	i wrote a "port" of struts in perl once
18:51	jodaro	it sucked
18:51	ibdknox	lol
18:51	jodaro	but it worked
18:52	ibdknox	that's really the measure of good software ;)
18:52	jodaro	cool, so clojure west and erlang factory this month
18:53	jodaro	i'm going to more conferences in one month than i've been to in like two years
18:53	ibdknox	well done :)
18:53	RickInGA	ClojureWest will be my first
18:54	RickInGA	I just wish I started clojure a few months earlier, Durham I can drive to
18:54	ibdknox	MSFT used to send me to a bunch
18:55	jodaro	you can drive here too
18:55	jodaro	its just ... much further
18:55	jodaro	now clojure maui ... you won't be able to drive to that one
18:55	RickInGA	you don't know me... I debated for days before I bought a plane ticket
18:55	RickInGA	I have a lot of people I could visit along the way...
18:56	jodaro	now i know you. you are my clojure friend.
18:56	RickInGA	haha, good point
18:56	jodaro	its like blood brothers
18:56	jodaro	only hygeinic
18:56	RickInGA	no, if it were scheme it would be hygenic
18:57	jodaro	damn
18:57	jodaro	we are both wrong
18:57	jodaro	hygienic
18:57	RickInGA	:)
19:01	Raynes	https://refheap.com/paste/868 New theme. Less likely to make your eyes bleed.
19:02	Raynes	Going to make it switchable soon, because some people like amalloy like the bright theme.
19:06	Raynes	Hah, I just realized I posted a link to a Ruby paste in #clojure.
19:06	Raynes	https://refheap.com/paste/920 Here is a Clojure paste with the new theme.
19:07	technomancy	~guards
19:07	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
19:07	ibdknox	~kill
19:07	clojurebot	Huh?
19:07	ibdknox	hm
19:07	qbg	slut
19:07	qbg	:p
19:07	mk	what's the info command for the bot?
19:07	mk	...nevermind
19:07	ibdknox	~kill it
19:07	clojurebot	Huh?
19:07	mk	~recur
19:07	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:08	ibdknox	what was the kill it with fire one?
19:08	qbg	~dance
19:08	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:08	ibdknox	Raynes: nice btw
19:08	mk	what does recur do?
19:08	qbg	tail self recursion
19:08	qbg	(basically)
19:08	mk	don't follow
19:08	aperiodic	it's the only way to do recursion without consuming stack
19:09	aperiodic	otherwise you'll get stack overflow errors if you do a lot of recursion
19:09	mk	hmm
19:09	Raynes	$kill
19:09	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
19:09	ibdknox	ah
19:10	qbg	It lets you loop
19:10	AimHere	Wel there's also the trampoline function for coroutines
19:10	qbg	trampoline still uses recur internally
19:11	aperiodic	well, i guess "only way" isn't true
19:11	AimHere	That's just an engineering decision. Recur could have used trampoline ;)
19:12	mk	I tried to get doc on it, but it's a macro, and I don't understand macros yet
19:12	qbg	recur is a special form
19:12	mk	are special forms a type of macro?
19:12	TimMc	nope
19:13	qbg	special forms are primitives
19:13	TimMc	They're actual honest-to-god compiler built-ins.
19:13	technomancy	you can treat them like macros for the most part
19:13	RickInGA	(defn triangle [^long n]
19:13	RickInGA	(loop [c 0 n n]
19:13	RickInGA	(if (zero? n)
19:13	RickInGA	c
19:13	RickInGA	(recur (+ n c) (- n 1)))))
19:14	RickInGA	that function calculates 'triangle' numbers using recursion
19:14	mk	I'm looking at: (fn [s n] (if (= n 0) (first s) (recur (rest s) (dec n))))
19:14	qbg	1.3 lets you do (doc recur)
19:14	TimMc	mk: There are two places you can recur to: fns and loops
19:15	TimMc	mk: Are you familiar with the concept of teh "tail position" in an expression?
19:15	mk	my version of that was: (fn r [q n] (if (= n 0) (first q) (r (rest q) (- n 1))))
19:16	qbg	mk: That is basically nth, if you don't know what it does
19:16	mk	qbg: yep. It's #21 on 4clojure.com
19:16	mk	TimMc: probably not sufficiently
19:16	TimMc	It's essential to understanding recur.
19:17	RickInGA	the second one you posted, the function calls itself by name
19:17	RickInGA	recur gives you the same behavior, but the compiler actually rewrites it as a loop
19:18	qbg	If the last thing a function does is return a result of another function, it can instead just have the other function return the first function's caller
19:18	TimMc	instead of allocating a new stack frame each time
19:18	qbg	*return to the first function's caller
19:19	mk	I don't understand yet. so looking at: (fn [s n] (if (= n 0) (first s) (recur (rest s) (dec n))))
19:20	mk	there's a function, a conditional, first makes sense... then suddenly, recur
19:20	qbg	Consider your first version of the function
19:20	AimHere	(defn triangle [n] (if (= n 0) 0 (+ n (triangle (- n 1))))) <- This would be a 'simpler' recursive triangle function, but since the result of the recursion has things done to it, you can't use recur to make it tail recursive
19:21	qbg	r returns the result of evaluating r
19:21	RickInGA	mk: do you understand how it works if your function had a name and if the function called itself?
19:22	mk	RickInGA: I wrote the second version I posted, and I think that (fn name ... names the function, so yes (I hope)
19:22	qbg	Yes it does
19:24	RickInGA	by replacing the function name with recur you get the same behavior
19:24	qbg	Since r is returning the result of r, we can have (second) r return the result directly instead of having it first return it to the first r.
19:24	RickInGA	the function calls itself again, and rebinds the parameters to the new values
19:25	mk	oh. Yeah, I see that now. I had one solution typed up across several lines, but now I'm looking at them beside each other
19:25	RickInGA	the benefit of this is that it does not ACTUALLY call itself, it rewrites itself as a loop, which does not use the stack
19:25	mk	how does recur know which function to grab if the function isn't named?
19:25	qbg	Inner most
19:26	qbg	(loop also counts here)
19:26	RickInGA	the trade off of using recur though is that you can only call it from the 'tail position', which is the last thing the function does
19:26	mk	qbg: can I specify some outer function?
19:26	qbg	No
19:26	AimHere	Some lisps are magic enough to do the tail recursion thing without any explicit 'recur' type calls.
19:27	AimHere	Apparently clojure is hampered a little with the JVM
19:27	qbg	We need loop/recur because of the JVM
19:27	mk	yeah, I heard that mentioned in a talk
19:27	qbg	With native code (or appropriate emulation), you can have general tail call optimization
19:27	qbg	One way to emulate it is to use trampoline
19:27	RickInGA	I need to run, talk to you all later
19:27	qbg	tail recursion = goto
19:28	mk	what counts as "the last thing the function does"?
19:28	qbg	The last thing computed
19:29	mk	(fn [s n] (if (= n 0) (first s) (recur (rest s) (dec n)))) ?
19:29	mk	what counts as the last thing computed there?
19:29	qbg	On the recursive side, the recur
19:29	qbg	This is enforced by the compiler
19:29	qbg	,(fn [x] (+ 1 (recur (inc x))))
19:29	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: Can only recur from tail position, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:30	qbg	Above you can't use recur because you still need to add one to the result of the recursion
19:30	qbg	Understand?
19:31	AimHere	,(fn [x] (+ 0 (recur (inc x))))
19:31	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: Can only recur from tail position, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:31	AimHere	Just checking if the compiler was smart enough to optimise out that + 0 preemptively
19:31	qbg	Clojure doesn't do magic like that :)
19:32	mk	so there can't be anything between the function, and the recur, is how I'm seeing it
19:32	qbg	It has to immediately return the result of the recur
19:33	mk	so even #(identity (recur (inc x))) wouldn't work (if I typed that right)
19:33	mk	s/x/%
19:33	qbg	Correct
19:34	AimHere	Unless the clojure compiler is intermittently magic
19:34	qbg	Which it isn't
19:34	mk	interesting
19:34	AimHere	Damn you Rich. I need more magic in my lisp environment
19:35	qbg	Magic comes at a price
19:36	qbg	If you want magic, check out continuations :)
19:36	mk	it gets away with (if true (recur...)) though, because if is an... "upwards" construct, if that makes sense, but (+ 0 (recur...)) fails because it tries to mess with the value as it's falling back down from recur
19:37	qbg	There is nothing left to do in the if version; that decision has already been made
19:37	qbg	mk: Are you familiar with assembly?
19:38	mk	qbg: familiar but not proficient
19:38	qbg	A form is in tail position if you can replace the CALL with a JMP
19:38	qbg	That way your callee will return to your caller
19:39	mk	so numerous forms can be in tail position
19:39	qbg	For general TCO yes
19:39	mk	it's not about being in the last position of a list at all
19:39	AimHere	Yep. You can have more than one recur
19:39	qbg	Due to the JVM, you can only have recur
19:39	mk	TCO?
19:39	clojurebot	yes please
19:39	qbg	tail call optimization = replacing the CALL with the JMP
19:39	mk	ah, right
19:40	qbg	The JVM doesn't let you jump to other methods
19:41	mk	ok, recur makes much more sense now. Do I need to worry about the implementation, or should I treat it as the magic way to make recursion not die, only to be used in the tail position?
19:42	qbg	It doesn't matter :)
19:42	mk	yay abstraction
19:42	qbg	I think you can't recur across try though
19:43	qbg	Which makes sense if you think about i
19:43	qbg	*it
19:44	mk	that would make sense, because a try is really a ... throw is a special type of return, while try is a special type of conditional statement
19:44	qbg	If there is an exception thrown, there is still stuff to do!
19:44	mk	yeah - for one, you have to figure out which catch block it goes to
19:45	qbg	Namely you have to execute the catch block
19:45	mk	in java, sometimes we return null, and do a if(result==null){...}, other times we throw Ex, and put a }catch(Ex e){...} after it
19:46	qbg	And hopefully log it :)
19:48	mk	I don't think I'm a fan of exceptions, but I'm not sure what else there is
19:49	mk	(I'm also not a fan of null)
19:49	qbg	throw new RuntimeException(e);
19:49	qbg	Or throw a checked exception without declaring it :)
19:52	mvid	does anyone here use heroku for a clojure app?
19:54	kisielk	does anyone have suggestions as to who to follow on 4clojure.org ? :)
19:54	mk	kisielk: I'm following the top N people, sorted by problems solved
19:55	kisielk	kind of weird that it doesn't let you look at whatever solutions you want once you've solved a problem
19:55	mk	~4clojure
19:55	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:55	kisielk	would be nice if you could aggregate / vote / comment on all solutions
19:56	kisielk	hm, what's the power operator / function in clojure?
19:56	mk	kisielk: yes, I was thinking the same. many of the solutions are identical (or nearly so), so it would be better to just have a counter of the most common ones
19:59	mk	are there comments in clojure?
19:59	xeqi	,(Math/pow 3 4)
19:59	clojurebot	81.0
19:59	kisielk	mk: of course
20:00	mk	kisielk: what are they?
20:00	qbg	;
20:00	qbg	; this is a comment
20:00	qbg	There is also the comment macro (rarely used)
20:00	mk	thanks
20:01	qbg	,http://gunfacts.info/
20:01	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: http://gunfacts.info/>
20:01	qbg	,[1 #_2 3 4]
20:01	clojurebot	[1 3 4]
20:01	qbg	And that comment
20:01	qbg	Rarely used also
20:01	qbg	Just use ;
20:01	kisielk	I find the comment macro is useful if I have a module that has some functions that don't work yet, syntactically, but I want to save it and use it anyway :)
20:02	qbg	The downside of comment and #_ is that they have to be well formed
20:02	mk	kisielk: why can't you use ; for that?
20:03	muhoo	because it screws up the syntax highlighting
20:03	kisielk	mk: because I don't want to put a ; in front of n lines of code
20:03	mk	muhoo: ah
20:03	kisielk	where n > some small number :)
20:03	qbg	Maybe some day we'll have #\| \|#
20:03	mk	kisielk: your editor might have a "put a comment marker in front of selected lines" command hotkey
20:04	muhoo	#\|o_o\|#
20:04	kisielk	mk: it does actually
20:04	muhoo	sideburns :-)
20:04	kisielk	but that still means selecting the block of code
20:04	kisielk	whereas I can just add (comment then jump to the bottom and add another paren
20:04	kisielk	same thing I guess
20:04	kisielk	just seems nicer :)
20:04	mk	your editor might have a "select the current block of code" hotkey :)
20:04	kisielk	mk: yeah, it has that too :p
20:05	kisielk	I guess I just find it more aesthetically pleasing not to add a whole bunch of characters to my code :)
20:05	kenneth	hey, so i have this function: https://gist.github.com/098a1a56b8fcbbd87859. when i try to use it like this it errors out (arity error): ((derivative 3 #(+ %1 2)) 3)
20:06	kenneth	i'm a total newbie, trying to pick it up by translating an algorithm i've already written in functional ruby
20:06	mk	kenneth: try 4clojure.com too
20:07	qbg	Missing paren
20:07	qbg	(f (+ x dx)
20:08	qbg	That code is also spread over more lines than it needs to be, IMO
20:09	kisielk	also you should probably use 2-space indents
20:09	kisielk	those 2 things combined make it pretty hard to read near the bottom
20:09	qbg	You're actually calling (f (+ x dx) (f x))
20:10	kenneth	right, totally. nice catch, thanks
20:10	kenneth	i still haven't quite gotten lispy indentation rules
20:10	qbg	#(/ (- (f (+ % dx)) (f %)) dx) is what I'd do
20:11	qbg	You can also replace (- 0 precision-magnitude) with (- precision-magnitude)
20:12	kenneth	ah neat
20:12	kenneth	is % equivalent to %1?
20:12	qbg	Yes
20:12	kenneth	sweet
20:13	qbg	You can't nest the short hand anon functions though
20:13	kenneth	is there a way to make sure this function accepts a function with arity 1as argument only?
20:14	qbg	Do you really care?
20:14	qbg	There is no type system to enforce it
20:14	mk	kenneth: what do you expect it to do if that's not the case?
20:14	mk	(not compile, throw an exception, return null...?)
20:15	qbg	If the function doesn't have a one arity form, it will cause an exception
20:15	qbg	Functions can have multiple arities
20:15	kenneth	i guess i don't care, is it not convention to do sanity checks in clj?
20:15	kenneth	i'm used to doing a bunch of error checking to make sure i'm passed sane data
20:15	TimMc	kenneth: There are preconditions, but you can't use them to check arities.
20:16	kenneth	other quick question, in REPL, what does 1N mean in the output
20:16	qbg	I wonder if you could use reflection...
20:16	qbg	A bigint 1
20:16	qbg	They're contagious, like doubles
20:16	qbg	,(+ 1 1N)
20:16	clojurebot	2N
20:17	qbg	,(+ 1 1.0)
20:17	clojurebot	2.0
20:17	TimMc	qbg: Depends how fn* is implemented.
20:17	TimMc	If it overrides AFn with just a few .invoke methods, sure.
20:17	qbg	TimMc: I'd assume that that fn* wouldn't override the unused arities in AFn
20:17	kisielk	kenneth: if you like strict checking like that, you might want to try Haskell some time ;)
20:18	kenneth	kisielk: i don't like it, i'm just used to having to do it
20:18	kenneth	so a language where it's convention not to care is actually awesome to me
20:18	qbg	You should be good then
20:19	kenneth	sweet
20:19	kisielk	kenneth: coming from Ruby, I thought you'd be used to that :)
20:19	kenneth	kisielk: ruby is neat, but i also have to do a LOT of php and objective-c
20:20	mk	kenneth: I think the language designer compares type systems and unit tests to driving along the highway using those roadside barriers
20:20	qbg	It is duck typing taken to another level :p
20:20	qbg	mk: No, that is that TDD is like driving by running into the guardrails
20:20	kenneth	another question: is there a good way to do a real limit in clojure? i couldn't find one in ruby
20:21	kisielk	mk: that was just with respect to testing
20:21	qbg	kenneth: you mean mathematical?
20:21	kenneth	like, limit as h->0 for random-fn
20:21	kenneth	yes
20:21	kisielk	there's probably some math libraries from Java you could use for that
20:21	qbg	There would be so many edge cases to consider
20:21	TimMc	,(set (for [m (.getDeclaredMethods (class get)) :when (= (.getName m) "invoke")] (count (.getParameterTypes m))))
20:21	clojurebot	#{2 3}
20:21	qbg	Limits are interesting beasts
20:22	TimMc	qbg: ^ arities of #'get
20:22	TimMc	or rather of get
20:22	TimMc	(It is much easier if you have the var.)
20:22	mk	right, guardrails. And was it just tests? In the presentation I saw I thought he'd mentioned types shortly before, but I could be mistaken
20:22	qbg	Just tests from what I remember
20:23	TimMc	That's TDD done badly, of course. He's a bit too harsh on test-heavy development IMHO.
20:23	qbg	types are proofs, and are more powerful
20:23	qbg	Yeah, he isn't saying that tests have no value
20:23	qbg	It is just that you need to take into account other factors when designing code
20:23	kisielk	yeah, but he also seemed to say in that presentation (if we're talking about "Easy Made Simple" here) that having a hard proof of your code is not usually necessary
20:23	TimMc	kisielk: Simple Made Easy, but yes
20:24	kisielk	or was it Simple Made Easy
20:24	kisielk	that's the one :)
20:24	qbg	Someone needs to do a parody called "Easy made simple"
20:24	kisielk	although I think it works the other way around too ;)
20:24	TimMc	Easy Made Complex: A primer for Java
20:25	mk	yes, that presentation. (His other ones at http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey are great, too)
20:25	kisielk	actually it was that talk that got me to actually start learning Clojure
20:25	mk	kisielk: same here
20:25	kisielk	that and the fact that I'm getting sick of writing shitloads of unittests for the stateful code we have here
20:25	qbg	"stateful code"... Well there's your problem
20:26	kisielk	qbg: well, it's hard to teach everyone in your organization new ways of programming
20:26	kisielk	qbg: especially when most of them are from a non-programming background
20:26	qbg	Could be worse
20:26	kisielk	qbg: and are almost actively opposed to actually learning the details of programming :/
20:26	qbg	Most projects where I work don't have much if any in the way of tests
20:26	kisielk	oh definitely
20:26	kisielk	it's actually not so bad
20:27	kisielk	just every once in a while one of the scientists decides it's a great idea to put their algorithm in a class
20:27	kisielk	which has a bunch of random methods that add new attributes to the class instance
20:27	kisielk	and rely on being called in a particular order
20:27	muhoo	oh gawd, i did some work recently for a customer who did java-style TDD without the T
20:27	qbg	wat
20:28	kisielk	those are the ones that make me angry
20:28	qbg	Did they use Coffee instead? :p
20:28	kisielk	IDD, insanity driven development
20:28	muhoo	it was all "oh, we'll just refactor it later"
20:28	muhoo	but there were no tests to refactor to
20:28	kisielk	heh
20:28	qbg	You don't need tests when you have QA
20:28	muhoo	object spaghetti. i got so miserable that it sent me screaming, into the arms of clojure :-)
20:29	qbg	aka Questionable Assurance
20:29	muhoo	when i saw rhickey's presentation slamming OOP, it was like "MY SAVIOR!"
20:29	kisielk	sometimes my manager tries to use that when we bring something up in code review
20:29	kisielk	"We should do it this way.." "Well, we can do it that way later, if we need to "
20:29	mk	clojure offers some immutable libraries for java, right?
20:29	alandipert	mk: you can use clojure's immutable collections from java
20:29	TimMc	kisielk: The term for that is "technical debt".
20:29	qbg	The data structures are written in java
20:29	kisielk	TimMc: yeah, fortunately we usually manage to convince him otherwise :p
20:30	TimMc	kisielk: This is an important phrase, since it speaks the language of business.
20:30	qbg	But they aren't generified
20:30	mk	is that just the clojure.jar that I see in my eclipse project?
20:30	qbg	yes
20:30	mk	I think those should be promoted a bit more
20:30	qbg	You also get a really old version of ASM with clojure.jar :)
20:30	kisielk	anyway, coming from Python Clojure has been fairly easy to get going with, it almost feels familiar
20:31	qbg	There was a library that separated out the Clojure collections and added generics
20:31	TimMc	kisielk: Except you can put dictionaries in sets. Ain't that somethin'? :-P
20:31	TimMc	That was the final straw for me in Python -- non-hashable data structures.
20:32	kisielk	TimMc: you can put dictionaries in to sets in Python, if you subclass them and add __hash__ :)
20:32	qbg	TimMc: That is a good thing though
20:32	kenneth	okay, i put in a little rounding code to round limits which are almost correct
20:32	qbg	Having .hashCode on every object in java is broken
20:32	kenneth	https://gist.github.com/d76a89e5416d46952799 can you critique this? does this make senze?
20:32	kenneth	sense*
20:32	kisielk	TimMc: also in Python 3 there's a proposal to add FrozenDict
20:33	qbg	kenneth: Too much on one line now :)
20:33	mk	I'd like to have someone explain composite values to me one day
20:33	qbg	mk: you mean like vectors, etc.?
20:33	kenneth	qbg: how would you break this up?
20:33	qbg	as being values?
20:33	qbg	kenneth: introduce let
20:34	qbg	(/ (- (f (+ % dx)) (f %)) dx) could probably be one local
20:34	mk	yeah. I don't mean data structures (list vs vector, different performance characteristics and all that), I mean just the basic (1 2)
20:35	kisielk	mk: the new Clojure book from OReilly is pretty good
20:35	TimMc	qbg: Broken in that things should have to declare they are hashable?
20:35	qbg	They're mutable
20:35	TimMc	Oh! Yeah.
20:35	qbg	identity hash code is the only thing that makes sense for a mutable object
20:35	mk	kisielk: I know the basics, but I don't understand what data of that form is supposed to represent
20:36	TimMc	Right, so Python "solves" that by removing hashability.
20:36	qbg	TimMc: Right
20:36	mk	for example, if we're dealing with a 2d point, we can use (2 3), or {x:2 y:3} - which one is right?
20:36	TimMc	yuck, never thought about it that way
20:37	kenneth	an, interesting i didn't think of that qbg. how's this? https://gist.github.com/759d8403cd16b6415cb1
20:37	qbg	mk: The second one is probably better from a readability point of view
20:37	qbg	kenneth: Better. (/ (round (* d precision-magnitude)) precision-magnitude) is a rounding idiom and should probably be pulled out
20:38	solidsnack	Should I use this for string operations? http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/string-api.html
20:38	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/string-api.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
20:38	solidsnack	Woah.
20:38	qbg	At which point you could get rid of the let, or break down d
20:38	mk	qbg: perhaps. What I want to know is, what's the proper way to represent a point?
20:38	mk	is it just a pair of numbers?
20:39	solidsnack	It is so cool that there is a bot for that.
20:39	mk	treating it as a map has disadvantages, in that you can't iterate over the dimensions (for higher-dimensional points)
20:39	kisielk	mk: however you like
20:40	kisielk	or whatever suits your use case :)
20:40	antares_	mk: you can use a vector of 2 or a full blown record. Maps are also an option but records behave just like maps in many ways.
20:40	qbg	You could also use a defrecord
20:40	mk	kisielk: yeah, but that's a bit like answering "lisp or java" with "whichever you'd like" :)
20:40	qbg	You also have rectangular vs polar coords
20:40	kisielk	mk: I usually use vectors, personally
20:40	mk	one of them might be better, and there might just be a good wholesome way to think about composite values
20:40	kenneth	qbg: how about this https://gist.github.com/43d40ee5e9b12619ca1b
20:41	kisielk	mk: for 3d points it can also be advantageous to use vectors of 4 elements
20:41	mk	kisielk: 4?
20:41	kisielk	mk: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3847743/4-element-vector-3d-math
20:41	qbg	kenneth: Looking good. The formula for deriv should be familiar to the reader, so you probably don't need to break down d
20:41	TimMc	mk: Just use [1 2] until it gets painful and you decide that something else is better.
20:42	TimMc	If you don't need to present this in a public API, it's all good.
20:43	kisielk	hm, it's pouring rain and I didn't bring my jacket to work, that makes leaving difficult :(
20:43	mk	TimMc: perhaps, but I'm not just talking about simple points. There are substantially more complicated composite values out there
20:44	qbg	kenneth: Now it just needs docstrings
20:44	qbg	:)
20:45	mk	vectors and maps seem to just define names for the points (properties), but perhaps there's some sort of abstracted way to define the properties themselves
20:45	qbg	getter fns?
20:45	kisielk	Vector.getX()
20:46	mk	fns?
20:46	kisielk	see, it's encapsulated :P
20:46	kenneth	qbg: is there doc on how docs work in clojure?
20:46	qbg	(defn foo "docstring!" [x] ...)
20:46	qbg	Docstring and [x] are on new lines
20:46	qbg	(by convention)
20:47	TimMc	mk: You make a bunch of fns that can create and manipulate a certain abstraction.
20:47	TimMc	*instances of a certain...
20:47	qbg	kenneth: The reason for that is that defn can have multiple arities
20:48	mk	maybe a better way to explain what I'm getting at is with a line(segment). lines can be defined using two points, or a single point with length and rotation, etc.
20:48	mk	so now you have a composite "line value"
20:48	mk	is it two points? is it a point and length and rotation?
20:49	qbg	mk: Sounds like you want a protocol so you don't care
20:49	mk	not really. It's something else, and you can get these other, primitive values by calling various things on the line composite value
20:50	mk	where by "things" I mean :x1 :y1, :distance, etc.
20:50	mk	qbg: protocol?
20:50	qbg	like an interface in Java
20:50	qbg	Only you can extend them to preexisting types and classes
20:51	TimMc	mk: Collection of fns.
20:51	TimMc	That's all you need.
20:51	qbg	(single dispatch on type multimethods grouped together)
20:52	mk	ah, so the function part of a java object
20:53	qbg	You could define a Counted protocol (with count as the only protocol method in this case), and extend the protocol to various types
20:54	qbg	So then you can do (count "foo"), (count [1 2 3]), (count '(1 2 3)), (count <your type here>), etc.
20:55	mk	yeah, maybe. what I want, I think, is to hide the particular thing a protocol gets applied to. I don't need to know how a line is actually represented. It can be just a magic (abstracted) primitive value, as far as I'm concerned
20:56	qbg	That is what you with protocols
20:56	TimMc	mk: Do you understand that you can get the exact same effect by passing the mysterious objets around to various fns that collectively define an abstraction?
20:56	qbg	You don't care what it is, just that the appropriate protocols are defined for it
20:57	amalloy	yes, TimMc, exactly what i was about to say
20:57	amalloy	protocols are a nice feature that clojure has, but you don't need them to accomplish the goal of abstraction
20:57	TimMc	mk: Seriously, don't mess with protocols until you are much more comfortable with Clojure, They are an advanced topic!
20:58	mk	TimMc: I'm not. They were suggested by others in response to my (vague) complaints about composite values
20:58	qbg	If you don't have multiple impls of 'lines', protocols are overkil
20:58	qbg	*overkill
20:58	amalloy	(defn make-line [a b] ...) (defn get-a [line] ...) (defn get-b [line] ...) (defn get-length [line] ...). if you want to, you can define a different way to make lines, and reimplement get-a, without changing the users of get-a
20:58	amalloy	SICP has a bunch of material on this idea, in scheme
20:59	TimMc	algebraic something or other
20:59	TimMc	mumble mumble
20:59	mk	amalloy: what gets returned by those functions?
20:59	amalloy	mk: by which? make-line returns "a line", represented in a way that the user doesn't care about
21:00	amalloy	get-a returns one of the points in the line
21:00	qbg	This is merely the good parts of OO
21:00	mk	amalloy: can the user peek and see how it's represented?
21:00	TimMc	always
21:00	amalloy	shrug
21:00	TimMc	No matter what you do.
21:01	mk	then it's not what I'm talking about.
21:01	TimMc	then you're on crack
21:01	amalloy	probably, and if that bothers you you're hopelessly entrenched in Java
21:01	mk	relax
21:02	TimMc	mk: Even with interfaces, in Java, client code can always use reflection to poke around and find out the implementation details.
21:02	qbg	If you just care that it isn't a preexisting data structure, you can always use a ton of deftypes
21:02	mk	there are good reasons to hide that stuff. I'm not just talking about points here. If you expose it by returning a map, you'll have programmers using the map's :x and y:, or what have you
21:03	amalloy	spend your effort on enabling programmers to do good things, not on forbidding them to do bad things
21:03	TimMc	There's only so much you can do about programmers who do not respect the published API.
21:04	qbg	Values are immutable, so exposing those details doesn't hurt in that way
21:04	mk	TimMc: reflection is as good as not part of the spec. I'm not being paranoid about encapsulation, I just don't want to expose things by default
21:04	amalloy	qbg: that's not really true
21:04	muhoo	"I, am an API, and you must respect mah authoroitah!"
21:04	TimMc	qbg: I think the concern here is casual misuse of implementation details.
21:04	qbg	(by that way = by mutating them)
21:05	amalloy	if someone does start using implementation details, it means you can't change them without breaking them. nobody said anything about mutating
21:06	TimMc	alexbaranosky: I'm ready to learn midje.
21:06	amalloy	but just...tell them not to do that. you don't need huge wrought-iron guardrails
21:06	mk	it isn't true at all. By exposing those values, you get people writing code that makes use of them. But you might want to use a different representation of the same value (imagine a serious performance constraint)
21:06	qbg	Perf constraint -> code that uses them in the wrong way is broken
21:06	qbg	* -> code that uses them in the wrong way is broken
21:07	emezeske	IIRC you can still get at private vars. Which is good -- you have to jump through enough of a hoop that you can't complain when the library author changes that private implementation detail
21:07	TimMc	alexbaranosky: I have a function that shells out, and it's a little too complicated to set up a testing environment for the command. So... I can mock the shelling out?
21:07	qbg	emezeske: Yep, @#'namespace/private-var
21:08	mk	there might not even be private vars. There might just be function calls.
21:08	qbg	(use that for tests only if at all!)
21:08	emezeske	qbg: Yeah, that!
21:11	mk	can values be created from scratch in clojure? eg: new Object()
21:12	emezeske	,(Object.)
21:12	clojurebot	#<Object java.lang.Object@1d40019>
21:12	scottj	,(new Object)
21:12	clojurebot	#<Object java.lang.Object@18b1fdb>
21:14	yoklov	How can I do this better: https://gist.github.com/1963683
21:15	TimMc	yoklov: You just want to deinterleave a collection?
21:15	yoklov	yup
21:15	mk	amalloy: sometimes there's not much of a difference between enabling good things and forbidding bad. The good thing in this case is "stop thinking of it as a point pair - it's just a line"
21:15	yoklov	while maintaining order
21:16	qbg	,((juxt first second) (partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]))
21:16	clojurebot	[(1 2) (3 4)]
21:16	TimMc	try again :-)
21:16	amalloy	&(apply map vector (partition-all 2 (range 10)))
21:16	lazybot	⇒ ([0 2 4 6 8] [1 3 5 7 9])
21:16	qbg	Yep, fail sauce there
21:16	TimMc	&(apply map vector (partition-all 2 (range 9)))
21:16	lazybot	⇒ ([0 2 4 6 8])
21:17	amalloy	haha
21:17	yoklov	lol
21:17	amalloy	well, don't do it if it's not evenly divisble, silly
21:17	kenneth	so i have this algorithm that does a loop until something is found. what's the best way to write this in clojure
21:17	kenneth	?
21:17	TimMc	just sayin'
21:17	TimMc	amalloy: I'm actually having trouble understanding that result. Give me a minute.
21:17	amalloy	TimMc: one of the colls has length 1 instead of 2
21:17	TimMc	(I thought it would only lose one value.)
21:17	amalloy	so map stops
21:18	TimMc	yes, got it
21:18	amalloy	if you drop the -all, it just loses the last pair, which probably makes more sense
21:18	TimMc	&(apply map vector (partition 2 (range 9)))
21:18	lazybot	⇒ ([0 2 4 6] [1 3 5 7])
21:18	TimMc	righto
21:18	TimMc	kenneth: is it side-effecty?
21:19	TimMc	reading, writing, mutating...
21:19	kenneth	TimMc: it's not
21:19	qbg	kenneth: (first (filter ...)) might work for what you're doing
21:19	TimMc	kenneth: (loop [...] (if ... ret-expr (recur ...)))
21:19	kenneth	it's a gradient descent algo, here's the ruby code i'm trying to translate https://gist.github.com/bafcc45bd9ae332c1238
21:20	yoklov	if it makes a difference, I don't care that the seqs are vectors… my implementation doesn't handle odd vectors really either, as the last element of the 2nd is nil in that case
21:20	TimMc	&(apply map vector (partition 2 2 [nil] (range 9)))
21:20	lazybot	⇒ ([0 2 4 6 8] [1 3 5 7 nil])
21:21	TimMc	(if you had wanted that)
21:21	yoklov	Huh
21:21	yoklov	i hadn't haha, but that's interesting that that works
21:21	TimMc	partition is fantastic, it can do all sorts of overlap and skip tricks
21:21	TimMc	well, not all sorts, just those, really
21:22	yoklov	that's nifty
21:22	TimMc	kenneth: So you need to push some state around in a loop until some condition is triggered, yeah?
21:22	kenneth	that's the way i did it in ruby
21:23	kenneth	can't think of a functional way off the top of my head
21:23	TimMc	loop is going to be the most straightforward translation
21:23	yoklov	its a weird problem because it goes by the index of the collection as opposed to its values, couldn't use something like reduce because of that
21:24	TimMc	but you could easily do something with (first (filter (iterate ...))) if you're only hammering on one data structure.
21:24	qbg	(first (drop-while (reductions ...))) might work
21:24	qbg	Or TimMc's one
21:24	TimMc	reductions is only useful if you're folding in some collection
21:25	mk	how should one decide between Programming Clojure, and Joy of Clojure? or are there better books?
21:26	yoklov	i'll probably just stick with my (now modified to return different lengths) current function
21:26	yoklov	oh
21:26	yoklov	hm
21:26	yoklov	yeah.
21:27	qbg	mk: Programming Clojure (1st edition) is a bit old
21:27	qbg	2nd edition is being worked on though
21:28	mk	I should go with Joy, then?
21:28	qbg	Do you really need a book is another question
21:29	TimMc	yoklov: Stick with loop for now. There's not necessarily much to gain from converting it into a more functional approach immediately.
21:29	mk	it would be nice to have a go-to place for explanations of things I run into
21:30	qbg	I knew too much when I read JoC to have a well informed position on it
21:30	mk	what was your over-informed position?
21:30	qbg	I already knew everything :)
21:31	qbg	I think I liked programming clojure better though
21:31	emezeske	I read JoC knowing basically nothing about Clojure or Lisp in general
21:31	mk	gotcha :)
21:31	emezeske	And I liked it quite a bit
21:31	qbg	I hope the second edition is as good as the first :)
21:31	yoklov	yeah, i think think there might be a chance that this function won't get called with a seq of odd length anyway
21:32	ivan	I kind of wish JoC was twice as long
21:33	qbg	All of the books should be much longer :)
21:33	TimMc	yoklov: Wait, you're not the one with the ruby code. I'd use map vector partition instead of loop.
21:33	qbg	And dive into really awesome topics
21:34	mk	qbg: perhaps academic papers etc. are more your thing?
21:34	mk	what sort of topics?
21:34	qbg	LiSP is a really awesome book
21:34	yoklov	haha, alright.
21:35	qbg	Yeah, programming languages (mainly Lisp) are my thing.
21:35	yoklov	qbg: LiSP is great
21:35	qbg	13 interpreters and 2 compilers!
21:36	yoklov	yup, that sounds like the right number haha
21:37	qbg	I remember only being able to count 11 interpreters though
21:38	yoklov	I sorta was a little bored with JoC also because i had been writing scheme for a while, but I think that might have just been mostly a kneejerk reaction.
21:39	qbg	Programming Clojure was a required textbook for a class. JoC took over a semester to arrive. :)
21:41	yoklov	strange, didn't realize clojure was old enough for any schools to start teaching it
21:42	qbg	This was about a year and a half ago.
21:43	mk	what year was the course aimed at?
21:43	qbg	That class existed because of my passion for Clojure
21:44	qbg	It was CSci 4409, so undergrad juniors/seniors
21:44	yoklov	what was the subject of the course?
21:44	qbg	It was clojure with ~2 weeks of erlang at the end
21:45	qbg	http://cda.morris.umn.edu/~elenam/4409_fall10/index.html
21:45	yoklov	oh, alright, that makes sense
21:46	qbg	We did a parking lot simulator :)
21:46	qbg	(in the same sort of vein as the ant colony program)
21:48	qbg	Also, we did Hadoop completely wrong
21:48	yoklov	that makes sense. had the subject been anything other than concurrency, I might have complained about clojure being too complex to be interesting pedegogically (but that's just my bias as someone who used to TA a course in scheme)
21:48	yoklov	*too complex compared to scheme :p
21:48	dnolen	holy moly - PersistentVectors scream on V8
21:48	qbg	Do not have 20 hadoops file systems on multiple boxes but on the same vfs
21:49	qbg	dnolen: Benchmark?
21:49	mk	what did scheme introduce that was much different from mccarthy's lisp?
21:50	qbg	lexical scope
21:50	yoklov	yeah.
21:51	qbg	yoklov: Clojure could be a useful replacement for Scheme in an intro course if the error messages were better
21:52	qbg	IDE tooling is getting there with CCW
21:52	yoklov	eh.
21:52	yoklov	i'm not sure about that
21:53	qbg	Racket has the advantage of subseting the language though
21:53	yoklov	I don't see any real benefits to teaching an intro course in clojure, and the comparitive complexity of the language hurts it.
21:54	dnolen	qbg: slower than arrays but I can't believe JS has come to the point where this can work at all
21:54	yoklov	besides, the best intro textbook was written in scheme :p
21:54	dnolen	qbg: access times on a PersistentVector of a million items is within 4X-5X of JS arrays
21:54	qbg	yoklov: In return you get lazy seqs as a topic to consider, and the language is more useful in later courses
21:55	qbg	dnolen: PersistentVectors are smoking fast on V8
21:55	yoklov	the course I TA's used lazy sequencess
21:55	dnolen	qbg: seems like most of the optimization strategies used in Clojure can easily be applied to CLJS and they will work on modern JS runtimes.
21:55	ibdknox	dnolen: sweet
21:55	qbg	Now we're cooking with gas!
21:55	yoklov	streams are SICP section 3.6 (maybe 3.5)
21:55	dnolen	ibdknox: no more stupid slow copy on right ;)
21:55	dnolen	write
21:56	qbg	streams are more ugly though IMO
21:56	ibdknox	dnolen: is this in a branch somewhere?
21:56	yoklov	clojure's lazy seqs are "magic" though.
21:56	yoklov	streams have an understandable implementation
21:56	dnolen	ibdknox: no I just ported the Java to see if it was worth bothering at all
21:56	dnolen	Java -> JS
21:56	qbg	yoklov: not really any different
21:56	ibdknox	sweet
21:57	ibdknox	I assume there's optimizations to be done there too that would make them even faster then
21:57	qbg	dnolen: Didn't go the gvec route?
21:57	yoklov	no difference between an implementation in java versus using `delay` and `force` to implement your own?
21:57	dnolen	qbg: no PV should be implemented in CLJS, but CLJS needs an optimization pass first
21:58	mk	I'm on eclipse, and hitting f11 after changing code takes an annoyingly long time. Is there a way to quickly restart the program with .clj changes applied?
21:59	qbg	yoklov: That is basically how it works in Java. Clojure has the advantage that all of that is built in and all of the built ins use it
21:59	qbg	mk: Just load the modified file?
21:59	qbg	Into the running instance
21:59	dnolen	https://github.com/swannodette/persistent-vector
21:59	mk	qbg: how?
21:59	qbg	It can create non-reproducable states, but can be worth it
22:00	qbg	mk: in CCW?
22:00	qbg	It is in the Clojure menu
22:00	dsantiago	dnolen: That's pretty cool. Was wondering when CLJS was gonna get the real persistent data structures.
22:00	qbg	'Load file in REPL'
22:00	yoklov	qbg, I'm not saying it works differently in java, I'm saying the students will come out with a much deeper understanding of streams if they implement them themselves
22:00	mk	yes, ccw
22:01	mk	will this clear the current state back to default?
22:01	qbg	yoklov: True, but Clojure allows for laying some of that foundation sooner
22:01	dnolen	dsantiago: there's tons of optimization work to do, real persistentn data structures is part of that.
22:01	qbg	It depends on how you would teach it
22:02	qbg	The main issue in either case is that 1 semester is pretty short
22:02	dsantiago	Probably worth keeping the copy on write ones around.
22:02	qbg	dnolen: I'm assuming no persistent maps yet, right?
22:02	dnolen	qbg: this was just an experiment to see if V8 could perform well with this kind of code
22:03	qbg	Good enough
22:03	dnolen	qbg: now that we see that it does, yes, all the data structures should get ported
22:03	dnolen	written in CLJS - and the compiler should be able to produce JS code that is competitive w/ this JS
22:03	qbg	We need a punny name for a Clojure web framework on node right now
22:03	yoklov	I'd want to teach it by having them implement it themselves. I don't think a single semester is too short of a time to work with, but if you have to explain the langage as well as the concepts it becomes so.
22:04	yoklov	the benefit of scheme is that the language is incredibly simple
22:04	dsantiago	qbg: seijure
22:05	mk	pretty amusing but potentially insensitive
22:05	qbg	yoklov: The one thing I found lacking about my intro csci class is that after it we went to Java
22:06	qbg	Given such a setup, Clojure might be useful for the dividends paid in later classes
22:07	yoklov	right, but then you're sacrificing teaching computer science for teaching a specific platform.
22:08	qbg	The languages are a means to an end anyways
22:08	qbg	Clojure is still fairly simple, but it is more industrial, which has disadvantages
22:09	yoklov	clojure's much more complex than scheme in both syntax and semantics.
22:09	ztellman	wow, just came across the discussion of my libraries from a week ago
22:09	ztellman	those are some heated words
22:09	yoklov	which is why it's useful.
22:09	yoklov	and scheme isn't
22:10	qbg	IIRC, HtDP uses () and []
22:10	yoklov	SICP > HTDP, besides iirc they're totally interchangable
22:10	yoklov	they are in racket, at least.
22:10	ibdknox	ztellman: ?
22:11	qbg	Yeah, SICP is awesome
22:11	qbg	Still, if you use HTPD (like my school has for the past few years), you have to explain that syntax anyways
22:11	ztellman	ibdknox: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2012-02-24.html#18:12b
22:11	qbg	loop/recur could actually be an advantage over Scheme when it comes to tail recursion
22:12	ztellman	not that the code doesn't warrant it
22:12	qbg	I remember that potemkin discussion!
22:12	yoklov	ah, we use SICP. Still, how complex is "these are totally interchangable and theres no difference", versus [] is a vector and () is a list and in clojure the arglist has to be a vector as does the bindings of a let form... etc
22:12	ztellman	but honestly, don't judge until you try to create a map with slightly altered behavior
22:12	ibdknox	ztellman: ah, my argument was that it shouldn't matter
22:12	ztellman	until you walk a mile in my lazy-map shoes...
22:13	ztellman	ibdknox: yeah, it's mostly just funny
22:13	ztellman	I got a google alert on the madman comment
22:13	qbg	What I really don't like about HtDP is the lack of let from what I've seen
22:13	yoklov	and i disagree about your statement re: loop/recur.
22:13	qbg	How do you not cover let?
22:13	yoklov	HtDP doesn't cover let?
22:14	ztellman	ibdknox: also, the performance issues are going to become a thing of the past soon :)
22:14	qbg	From what I've seen of the problems from that case, they use nested defines instead
22:14	qbg	(I haven't actually taken a look at HtDP)
22:15	yoklov	I've never used HtDP or read it, I don't know.
22:15	ibdknox	ztellman: that's awesome :D
22:16	ibdknox	ztellman: noir works very cleanly with aleph and I've been directing folks looking to do websockets to it
22:16	technomancy	let is just syntactic sugar for lambda
22:16	yoklov	SICP covers it http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-12.html#%_sec_1.3.2
22:16	qbg	When I took the course we used "Scheme And The Art of Programming"
22:17	yoklov	even explaining its expansion in terms of lambda (which is crucial for understanding parts of chapter 4 later)
22:17	ztellman	ibdknox: once I get these things out the door, I'd like to implement https://github.com/ry/node_chat using a variety of protocols
22:17	TimMc	ztellman: I'm just amused that you wrote out all those invoke arities. :-)
22:17	ztellman	TimMc: would you believe someone actually did that for me?
22:17	ztellman	it was a pull request
22:17	TimMc	haha, nice!
22:17	ztellman	let me see if I can track it down
22:18	TimMc	Whoa, does postwalk strip-namespaces do what I think it does?
22:18	TimMc	That's hella handy.
22:19	ztellman	ibdknox: I'd like to do it using noir, is the reason I mention it, I'll track you down when I'm getting started on that
22:19	ztellman	also, check this out: https://github.com/dthume/aleph/commit/47d343edd37120d71534349bcacf9e52ecf30972
22:19	ztellman	it's the best pull request ever
22:19	ztellman	I had to keep it
22:21	ibdknox	ztellman: haha that's awesome
22:21	ibdknox	get everyone else to do it ;)
22:21	ztellman	ibdknox: I would have just written a macro to generate it
22:21	ztellman	but that sort of hard work deserves a permanent home in potemkin
22:21	ibdknox	:)
22:22	ztellman	home to, among other things, unify-gensyms: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin/blob/master/src/potemkin/macros.clj#L22
22:22	TimMc	My obsessive-compulsive tendencies make me want to check that for typos. >_<
22:22	ztellman	all gensyms followed by ## are forced to the same gensym, even if they're generated in different syntax-quotes
22:22	technomancy	how did you know it wasn't an emacs macro?
22:22	qbg	sick
22:22	ztellman	technomancy: I choose to believe it wasn't, the world's a more absurd place that way
22:24	technomancy	tellman's razor
22:24	ibdknox	lol
22:24	ztellman	I like it
22:24	qbg	Awesome: (namespace/import-macro namespace/import-macro) ;; totally meta
22:24	ztellman	potemkin's a great project
22:24	ztellman	an awful project too
22:24	qbg	an awfully great project?
22:25	yoklov	ztellman: have you ever had a use for that one?
22:25	ztellman	yoklov: which one?
22:25	yoklov	unify-gensyms
22:25	ztellman	oh, sure
22:26	technomancy	back in my day we had to let-bind our gensyms!
22:26	ibdknox	gensyms are currently fucking up my form comparisons :p
22:26	technomancy	I mean, let-bind explicit (gensym) calls
22:26	qbg	Yeah, those good ol' days
22:26	ztellman	so if you have something like `(let [x# 1] ~@(map (fn [x] `(… x#) …)))
22:26	ztellman	that doesn't work
22:26	ztellman	because they're gensymed in different scopes
22:27	TimMc	Yep, I use explicit (gensym ...) calls for those currently.
22:27	ztellman	you end up having to explicitly call (gensym …) outside the scope
22:27	qbg	Too bad syntax-quote is a reader thing
22:27	yoklov	that is strange, i had no idea.
22:28	ztellman	TimMc: me too, then I wrote https://github.com/ztellman/lamina/blob/perf/src/lamina/core/pipeline.clj#L236
22:28	ztellman	which had like eight explicit gensyms
22:28	ztellman	and I got sick of it
22:28	technomancy	isn't there any danger of unify-gensyms accidentally collapsing gensyms with false positives?
22:28	ztellman	technomancy: it assumes no one else is using ## as a suffix
22:28	ztellman	but if you call unify-gensym on an inner form, it re-normalizes it
22:28	technomancy	ztellman: oh I missed that part
22:28	TimMc	technomancy: Back in MY day, back when Fortran wasn't even Three-tran... we used our names in gensyms to prevent collisions: timmc__foo-project__123
22:29	technomancy	hah; three-tran
22:29	technomancy	nice
22:29	TimMc	it's from a song
22:29	TimMc	~kids these days
22:29	ztellman	so you can protect against getting unified by an outer scope
22:29	clojurebot	Get off my lawn!
22:29	TimMc	clojurebot: back in the day?
22:29	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:30	yoklov	`(fn [f#] (f#))`, err, why do you need a gensym there?
22:30	ztellman	also, I'm actually pretty confused by all the hate on import-fn, what's not to like about being able to decouple the presentation of your API and the structure of your code?
22:30	TimMc	clojurebot: back in the day is http://www.stevemacdonald.org/lyrics/wiwab.html
22:30	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
22:30	TimMc	technomancy: ^
22:31	TimMc	And I wasn't kidding about using your name in symbols.
22:31	TimMc	except that I'm not actually that old
22:31	ztellman	yoklov: as opposed to #((%)) ?
22:31	technomancy	TimMc: yeah, I occasionally write elisp, so I know that pain =(
22:31	technomancy	no module system
22:31	TimMc	eep
22:31	yoklov	or just (fn [f] (f)), isn't f scoped so that it doesn't matter what you call it?
22:32	ztellman	if you declare an ungensymed variable inside a macro, it will try to resolve it
22:32	yoklov	oh, you know, that makes sense.
22:32	technomancy	TimMc: most elispers cheat and use their initials
22:32	technomancy	but that's just asking for trouble!
22:33	yoklov	i don't write many macros but i've been constantly confused by their error messages when i do.
22:33	TimMc	org_DOT_timmc_DOT_foo-project_123
22:33	ztellman	yoklov: basically just gensym everything that isn't explicitly defined elsewhere
22:33	TimMc	I'll quote you as "basically just gensym everything"
22:34	TimMc	gensym until it stops working
22:34	qbg	gemsyms, gemsyms everywhere
22:34	yoklov	lol, thats what ends up happening but i've never really got why it was needed there. I didn't realize it resolves the things that weren't gensymed
22:35	qbg	that and you don't want name conflicts
22:35	qbg	(usually)
22:35	TimMc	&`(f f#)
22:35	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/f f__9425__auto__)
22:35	yoklov	well, right, but i gensym those
22:36	TimMc	:-)
22:36	yoklov	things like (fn [f] (f)) i wouldn't have though
22:36	yoklov	and would have gotten an error
22:36	amalloy	clojurebot: qbg is <reply> <qbg> basically just gensym everything
22:36	clojurebot	c'est bon!
22:36	TimMc	amalloy: or ztellman maybe
22:37	TimMc	if you're into correct quoting and that sort of thing
22:37	ztellman	my battlecry
22:37	TimMc	s/quoting/attribution/
22:37	amalloy	oh. i can't read
22:38	technomancy	interesting; defproject is the only defmacro in leiningen
22:42	technomancy	wow, Opa is listed as a distinct language on github
22:42	technomancy	popularity: #71
22:42	TimMc	Never heard of it.
22:42	technomancy	just above Ioke
22:43	technomancy	TimMc: it sounded to me like a web framework for ocaml, but I guess it claims to be a distinct language
22:44	ibdknox	Opa is weird
22:44	talios	Opa is a language from memory - but it serves client/server side in the same source file ( same method even )
22:44	talios	Was a very…. odd looking setup.
22:44	ibdknox	http://opalang.org/
22:45	zakwilson	Oh, good. ibdknox is here!
22:45	zakwilson	ibdknox: I'm looking for docs on Korma's join.
22:45	talios	they changed to a JS like syntax now? interesting
22:45	ibdknox	zakwilson: I haven't generated 0.3 docs yet :/
22:46	ibdknox	zakwilson: (join :inner :some-table-or-ent (= :some.key :some.otherkey))
22:46	ibdknox	or
22:46	technomancy	can't find any lang rankend lower on github than opa
22:46	ibdknox	(join some-ent)
22:46	ibdknox	(join some-ent (= ...))
22:46	zakwilson	ibdknox: join is new? It responded... poorly to trying to use where, or the map syntax used by where.
22:46	ibdknox	the map thing won't work.. though I guess it could
22:47	ibdknox	it's not new, but it did change
22:47	zakwilson	It seems Bad that join and select wouldn't use a similar syntax.
22:47	technomancy	huh; html literals. everyone hates that in scala; I wonder if the same problems apply here.
22:47	ibdknox	zakwilson: they use the same syntax
22:47	zakwilson	Like... the sort of Bad thas SQL itself has.
22:47	ibdknox	(where (= :blah 1))
22:47	zakwilson	I think all the examples use maps with where.
22:48	zakwilson	(where {:blah 1})
22:48	zakwilson	or (where {:blah [> 1]}), etc...
22:48	ibdknox	I generally prefer that syntax
22:48	ibdknox	but it doesn't seem right in this case
22:48	ibdknox	(join some-ent {:blah :cool})
22:48	ibdknox	doesn't really make sense
22:49	ibdknox	whereas (join some-ent (= :blah :cool)) does
22:49	ibdknox	let me take a look at why it doesn't work
22:49	zakwilson	I'm not sure, but without docs, I figured anything that works for where should work with join (and actually, I assumed join would USE where)
22:51	ibdknox	huh?
22:51	ibdknox	like implicit joins?
22:51	ibdknox	those don't work in some dbs
22:51	ibdknox	it uses the join syntax
22:52	TimMc	zakwilson: Do you mean converting JOIN constraints into WHERE constraints?
22:53	zakwilson	No, I just mean that you would write (join foo (where (= :bar baz))) instead of (join foo (= :bar baz)) because select is that way.
22:54	ibdknox	huh?
22:54	ibdknox	it's a join clause
22:54	ibdknox	do you mean with?
22:54	ibdknox	with does that
22:55	ibdknox	zakwilson: btw there are docstrings for all of this. I just fixed the map thing for you too :)
22:55	weavejester	I think I should probably drop Clojure 1.2 compatibility in my libraries…
22:55	weavejester	In new versions anyway
22:55	weavejester	Is anyone still using 1.2 for projects?
22:56	zakwilson	No. I mean that one would write (select foo (where (= :bar baz))), and it seems like a strange thing that join is different.
22:56	zakwilson	weavejester: I am because some library, I think it's clojureql wasn't on 1.3 last I checked.
22:56	zakwilson	I'm working on getting off clojureql, so I don't really object in principle.
22:57	ibdknox	weavejester: we are :(
22:57	weavejester	ibdknox: Would Ring 1.1 depending on Clojure 1.3 impact you then?
22:58	technomancy	weavejester: there are still a number of internal private projects still on 1.2
22:58	TimMc	zakwilson: I think that's the SQL WHERE clause you're looking at there.
22:58	rsenior	weavejester: I started migrating projects to 1.3 this week, will probably take a while
22:58	zakwilson	ibdknox: thanks for the fix, BTW. I'm going to proceed to not use it right now.
22:58	ibdknox	weavejester: I believe so, though with some diligence I think we can get off 1.2.. just hasn't been in the cards
22:58	TimMc	ibdknox: What is blocking you?
22:58	technomancy	weavejester: what's the motivation? is it just to use the handy ^:metadata notation?
22:58	weavejester	Maybe I'll keep 1.2 compatibility around then
22:58	ibdknox	zakwilson: haha, I think the confusion is in how korma is mapping directly to SQL
22:59	technomancy	becaues that's really the only thing I've noticed since upgrading to 1.3 in Leiningen
22:59	weavejester	technomancy: No real motivation other than 1.3 being new and shiny :)
22:59	zakwilson	TimMc: in clojureql, one writes (select foo (where ...)) and (join foo bar (where ...)). I'm wondering why Korma isn't that way.
22:59	ibdknox	zakwilson: where creates a WHERE while (join) will create JOIN blah ON blah.id = cool.id
22:59	technomancy	(plus bugs related to that silly RTE-wrapping)
22:59	technomancy	if the ^:metadata syntax were backported to 1.2.2 I'd be tempted to stick with it
22:59	zakwilson	ibdknox: yes, that's the cause of my confusion.
23:00	weavejester	1.2 just feels old, but… there's no reason not to support it. There's nothing in the Ring 1.1 and Hiccup 1.0 snapshots that rely on it.
23:00	ibdknox	zakwilson: korma adheres to SQL as much as possible
23:00	zakwilson	ibdknox: SQL makes puppies whimper and hide under the bed.
23:00	ibdknox	TimMc: I think we're relying on a couple of stupid things that still need contrib. I don't remember what off the top of my head though.
23:01	technomancy	weavejester: it's old but trusty
23:01	ibdknox	zakwilson: not really, in this case I would argue that this solution is actually more succinct and obvious
23:01	mk	how do I use aleph with ccw?
23:01	zakwilson	Anyway, confusion cleared up. I can now proceed to replace some more CQL.
23:01	weavejester	ibdknox: Do any of your internal projects use Hiccup?
23:02	ibdknox	weavejester: all of mine do in some fashion
23:02	weavejester	ibdknox: Do you think the Hiccup namespace rearranging for 1.0 would cause you problems?
23:02	TimMc	ibdknox: I see, transitive deps.
23:02	ibdknox	weavejester: I wholeheartedly agree with that change and have no issue with fixing those cases
23:02	ibdknox	weavejester: I don't mind it if it's things I can fix
23:03	ibdknox	1.3 is a bit harder
23:03	technomancy	weavejester: have you seen lein precate?
23:03	ibdknox	since as TimMc said, it's transitive dependencies :(
23:03	weavejester	ibdknox: So far that seems to be the consensus. I do want to fix the Hiccup namespaces.
23:03	weavejester	technomancy: Nope...
23:03	weavejester	technomancy: What does it do?
23:03	technomancy	weavejester: the idea is that upgrades to non-backwards-compatible versions can be automated
23:04	ibdknox	weavejester: just let me know when and I'll go through everything in Noir/the docs and fix it up
23:04	technomancy	lein precate > project.clj # and you're compatible with leiningen 2
23:04	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/lein-precate
23:04	zakwilson	Did I hear something about cake and lein merging?
23:05	technomancy	zakwilson: aye
23:05	TimMc	technomancy: Does precate use some fancy new surface-form-preserving reader that I haven't heard about yet?
23:05	weavejester	ibdknox: It'll have to coincide with Ring 1.1, as ring-devel depends on the old version
23:05	technomancy	TimMc: no, you lose comments and indentation unfortunately
23:05	technomancy	I would love to preserve that, but no such thing exists
23:05	zakwilson	Will there be any rough edges if I update?
23:05	weavejester	technomancy: Ohh - is it just for project.clj transitions from lein1 to lein2?
23:06	technomancy	zakwilson: wait another week or so and there will be a preview release of lein2
23:06	technomancy	weavejester: yeah
23:06	technomancy	weavejester: just an idea; don't know if it'd be practical for you
23:06	weavejester	I'll take a look tomorrow
23:09	mk	how can I start using aleph from inside eclipse/ccw?
23:10	zakwilson	ibdknox: I'm using select* and (modifier "distinct") and getting SELECT ["distinct"] ...
23:10	mk	it seems to need lein and defproject (Unable to resolve symbol: defproject), but there's no info on what I should do with this
23:10	ibdknox	zakwilson: yeah that was a bug in one of the betas
23:10	ibdknox	zakwilson: I just pushed beta5
23:10	zakwilson	ibdknox: yay!
23:11	zakwilson	Oh. I was on alpha9. I thought I was on beta4. I don't know how this happened.
23:11	zakwilson	Let's see what explodes!
23:11	ibdknox	should just be fixes
23:12	ibdknox	I think
23:12	zakwilson	I have a very faint memory of there being some reason I couldn't use beta4, but it might have just not been on clojars when I tried to use it or something silly.
23:13	zakwilson	Anyway, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm complaining. I really like your stuff.
23:13	ibdknox	not at all! Glad someone's using it :)
23:14	zakwilson	In three projects.
23:14	zakwilson	including client work: http://renthubnyc.com/
23:14	ibdknox	sweet
23:15	semperos	in my project.clj, I have :source-path set to "src/clj" and :java-source-path set to "src/java"
23:15	zakwilson	I'm excited to have work to show off that isn't some private internal tool I can't send people to play with.
23:16	semperos	but when I do `lein compile`, I get errors from code inside "src/java"
23:16	semperos	thought `lein compile` was only meant to compile Clojure source?
23:17	ibdknox	is there a way to read code without invoking reader-macros? and subsequently expand them later?
23:17	amalloy	ibdknox: slurp :P
23:17	ibdknox	lol
23:18	amalloy	(because really, everything's a reader macro. ( is a reader macro that reads until a matching ) and puts the results into a list)
23:18	ibdknox	ok, how about a good way to remove all gensyms from a form then?
23:18	technomancy	semperos: it's assumed that if you have java code, your clojure code is dependent upon it
23:18	zakwilson	Yay! beta5 makes everything better
23:18	amalloy	huh?
23:18	technomancy	semperos: leiningen 2 will have more flexibility in this regard
23:18	semperos	technomancy: understood, thanks
23:18	ibdknox	amalloy: I'm reading files and comparing the forms to determine which top-level forms have changed. Gensyms totally fuck that up for me
23:19	ibdknox	since they'll always be different after very read
23:19	amalloy	hmm
23:19	ibdknox	my naive thought was to walk to code for symbols, if the name has a # in it remove it
23:19	semperos	technomancy: will have, or already does if I pull it down from Github and use that lein instead?
23:19	ibdknox	the code*
23:19	amalloy	i'm not sure you can do that
23:20	amalloy	not if you invoke read
23:20	amalloy	you have to just compare the strings, i think. use the reader to determine where forms start and end, and compare the string sources inside those bounds
23:21	technomancy	semperos: it's already implemented if you want to give it a run
23:21	semperos	technomancy: sweet, will do
23:21	technomancy	though that part in particular may not be documented; you want to add a :prep-tasks ["compile"] to defproject if you want javac to not be automatically invoked
23:22	technomancy	and maybe that will work! if it doesn't please open an issue; I'm headed off for now
23:22	ibdknox	amalloy: the thing is that I don't really want adding a new line to cause everything to be "changed"
23:22	semperos	technomancy: sounds good, thanks for the tip
23:22	ibdknox	so this seemed like a clever solution
23:22	technomancy	hope it works well for you
23:22	ibdknox	lol
23:22	amalloy	ibdknox: it's a clever solution that doesn't work, though, right?
23:22	amalloy	so...
23:22	ibdknox	well, if I just walk the form and remove all symbols with a name containing # and it would
23:22	amalloy	gensyms don't have # in them
23:23	amalloy	&'`(fn [x#] x#)
23:23	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/fn)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/apply clojure.core/vector (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote x__9440__auto__)))))) (clojure.core/list (quote x__9440__auto__))))
23:23	ibdknox	,(read-string "#(inc 1)")
23:23	clojurebot	(fn* [] (inc 1))
23:23	ibdknox	,(read-string "#(inc %)")
23:23	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__55#] (inc p1__55#))
23:23	TimMc	those are double gensyms or something
23:24	ibdknox	for some reason, those are the only ones that are screwing me up
23:24	TimMc	&`#(%)
23:24	amalloy	ibdknox: are you sure? `(fn [x#]) should be different every time you read it
23:24	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [p1__9448__9449__auto__] (p1__9448__9449__auto__))
23:24	ibdknox	I'm doing this only with clj code, so no macros will be read in it
23:24	ibdknox	cheating, I guess
23:24	amalloy	huh?
23:25	TimMc	ibdknox: cljs, you mean?
23:25	ibdknox	sorry
23:25	ibdknox	yes
23:25	TimMc	I like the "read it twice" idea.
23:25	amalloy	cljs still supports ` though, doesn't it? even if you don't use it for macros
23:26	amalloy	i guess it doesn't really matter, because nobody will put gensyms in it if you're not generating code
23:26	ibdknox	TimMc: I did too, but there's no way to do it right?
23:27	TimMc	some kind of parallel treewalk to find mismatched symbols...
23:28	ibdknox	amalloy: yeah, like I said, cheating
23:28	TimMc	I guess the worst-case scenario here is where one gensym changes to another.
23:29	TimMc	ibdknox: What happens if you chop off all #"__.*" from symbols?
23:30	TimMc	Read twice, if it changes, chop off the __.* and call that the gensym root.
23:30	ibdknox	that would probably work
23:31	TimMc	Then horrible people who put double-underscores in their variable names wouldn't even be affected.
23:31	ibdknox	so with this stuff, you can do my live game editor with your own editor :)
23:31	TimMc	nice!
23:32	TimMc	ibdknox: I guess you can't redef gensym -- the reader is in Java.
23:32	ibdknox	that was my initial thought
23:32	TimMc	Any reputable third-party readers for CLJS?
23:33	TimMc	They'd have to be fast-moving to keep up.
23:33	ibdknox	I don't know of any
23:36	TimMc	ibdknox: I'm imagining doing terrible things to clojure.lang.RT#id, which is what gensym (but probably everything else too) uses
23:36	TimMc	It's an AtomicInteger.
23:36	ibdknox	lol
23:36	ibdknox	like resetting it each time?
23:36	ibdknox	that sounds like a disaster
23:36	TimMc	It's subclassable; you could replace it.
23:37	TimMc	check the call stack...
23:37	ibdknox	:p
23:40	TimMc	Looks like LispReader.java is pretty solid -- uses var thread bindings to maintain a mapping of gensyms.
23:40	TimMc	(in syntaxQuote)
23:41	mk	if code in a .clj file has a defn, can I replace that function in some way via the repl?
23:45	ibdknox	TimMc: https://refheap.com/paste/922
23:46	TimMc	ibdknox: So that will chop all gensyms down to their bases.
23:46	ibdknox	yep
23:47	TimMc	Swapping g and g# in a form will be ignored; is that OK?
23:47	ibdknox	well, I just changed it to leave the __
23:47	ibdknox	so then that shouldn't be an issue
23:47	TimMc	Ah! Interesting.
23:49	TimMc	Raynes: Emergency, the refheap iguana is missing!
23:50	ibdknox	hah. that worked
23:50	TimMc	woot
23:51	TimMc	and you didn't even have to subclass AtomicInteger and use .setAccessible true on RT!
23:51	TimMc	(pretty much any hack feels OK in comparison to that)
23:52	ibdknox	lol
23:52	ibdknox	yeah pretty much :p
23:52	ibdknox	time to learn how eventsource works
23:52	TimMc	"Mom, dad... the good news is, I'm not pregnant! The bad news is, I may have slightly damaged the car."
23:53	TimMc	Always frame the discussion.
23:57	ibdknox	lol
23:58	TimMc	ibdknox: So the idea here is to have the live game editor notice a changed file on disk?
23:58	ibdknox	yeah, checks to see if any of the forms changed, if they did, compiles them (much much faster than normally) to js and beams them to the client