#clojure – 2012-02-27

2012-02-27

00:17	Raynes	callen: Raynes made refheap.
00:17	Raynes	You were correct.
00:17	callen	Raynes: I'm 1 for 2 then. About the same as my grades in school then.
00:24	shaolynn	So I've created a project based on noir-async (https://github.com/andrewvc/noir-async), but I'm having trouble running it with "lein ring server"
00:25	shaolynn	I keep getting the following error:
00:25	shaolynn	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :consumer of protocol: #'lamina.core.channel/ChannelProtocol found for class: nil
00:25	shaolynn	"lein run" works fine, but I'd like to compile it into a war and deploy it to AWS beanstalk
00:31	shaolynn	Ok, let me rephrase that - what's the best way to deploy a noir-async (https://github.com/andrewvc/noir-async) project to AWS beanstalk?
00:56	shaolynn	Ok, so I'm able to compile a war file, and it runs on my local tomcat server, but for some reason I get only 404s.
00:56	shaolynn	here's my server.clj:
00:56	shaolynn	https://gist.github.com/1921781
00:56	shaolynn	any advice?
01:03	devn	(doseq [f list-of-files] (for [parsed-and-filtered (scrape-html-file f)] (swap! an-atom conj (:key-from a-map))))
01:04	devn	this feels wrong...
01:05	bbloom	use in-to {} ??
01:05	lazybot	bbloom: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
01:06	bbloom	sigh thanks lazybot
01:06	devn	i think ive spent too much time in imperative land lately
01:08	bbloom	actually, i have no clue whatsoever what that line you pasted is trying to do :-P
01:18	Raynes	I see an atom.
01:18	Raynes	I assume the worst.
01:18	devn	bahaha
01:19	devn	cut me some slack. i've been off on a farm somewhere for the last 6 months or something
01:20	devn	Raynes: I'm scraping a a log that is HTML. I extract the nodes I want and put them into a map {:nick "fred" :content "heyo!"}
01:21	devn	the issue is that sometimes :nick is nil because it is a continuation of the previous thing "fred" said
01:21	callen	devn: are you using clojure.xml or tree-seq?
01:21	devn	so I'd like to populate the next nil with the current nickname
01:21	devn	callen: neither, enlive
01:21	callen	that'll do.
01:22	callen	pretty good idea. :)
01:22	Raynes	devn: I don't understand why you need an atom for this. I guess I'd have to see the rest of the code.
01:22	devn	so my thinking is: as I walk through the html file i constantly am setting the atom to be the current nickname, and when i encounter a nil, i assoc that
01:24	ibdknox	anyone know if there's a way in lein to prevent .class files from being generated for a specific namespace?
01:26	bbloom	devn: treat your walk over the html file as a lazy sequence traversal
01:26	bbloom	then use reduce to compose your map
01:27	devn	Raynes: it's something like: (map parse-nodes logfile) => ({:nick "fred" :content "hello"}, {:nick nil :content "and good morning!"}, ...)
01:28	devn	meh, im just being confusing by not showing code, but ive made a big mess
01:28	devn	i need to make some commits
01:29	Raynes	I guess I just don't understand the concept of side effects anymore. Even my I/O is pure these days. ;P
01:29	devn	lol
01:30	callen	I'm not sure if I want to trade Raynes or not.
01:30	Raynes	Movie time.
01:32	humbleZ	test
01:33	callen	humbleZ: icles
01:41	spoon16	why are many things in https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc/internal.clj named with a * suffix?
02:03	humbleZ	does anyone know of any other resources like the clojure-koans?
02:05	shaolynn	I'm having trouble deploying a noir app to a tomcat server. Is there a more specific IRC that I should try, or is this my best bet?
02:05	amalloy	humbleZ: 4clojure?
02:06	amalloy	you could try #noir, but this is probably your best bet
02:06	shaolynn	thx amalloy! I'll check it out
02:06	humbleZ	thanks ammoloy, will take a look
02:12	devn	how can I turn this: ({:nickname "Chouser", :content "Hm. Not exactly packed in here. Anyone paying attention?"} {:nickname "rhickey", :content "hi"} {:nickname "Chouser", :content "hi!"} {:nickname nil, :content "I'm still just reading the docs, but I have a quick question."}) into a seq of maps where the nils are replaced with the last non-nil nickname?
02:13	devn	so {:nickname nil ...} becomes {:nickname "Chouser" ...}
02:13	devn	(btw chouser sorry for all the nick hilights;)
02:14	shaolynn	Fuck - when I google my error message, the top result is my unanswered question on this IRC from earlier tonight D:
02:16	devn	shaolynn: what message?
02:16	shaolynn	The main issue is that I'm having trouble deploying a .war to a tomcat server
02:17	shaolynn	The specific message that I was searching for was this:
02:17	shaolynn	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :consumer of protocol: #'lamina.core.channel/ChannelProtocol found for class: nil
02:17	shaolynn	when I run "lein ring server"
02:18	shaolynn	I can run the app just fine with just "lein run", but when I run "lein ring uberwar" and run the war on a tomcat server, All I get are 404 pages.
02:18	shaolynn	Right, I tried that with no luck.
02:20	devn	shaolynn: fwiw i know that ztellman is in the middle of a pretty big rewrite, not sure which version you're running, he has a clj-1.3 branch and a perf branch
02:20	aperiodic	~contrib
02:20	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
02:20	devn	one of them is 32 commits ahead of master, the other is 83
02:20	shaolynn	thx devn, I'll check it out
02:21	shaolynn	I'm currently using noir-async "0.1.2"
02:21	devn	shaolynn: np, if all else fails (and it might), then id suggest looking at A) projects that rely on lamina to see if anyone is doing something similar to you, and B) asking on the clojure mailing list
02:21	ibdknox	tomcat is a server, I'm not sure how something like aleph could interoperate with that
02:21	devn	shaolynn: either way, if you can provide steps to reproduce and you ping the mailing list, I can almost guarantee you'll get a response
02:22	shaolynn	devn: I'll be sure to do that, thx :)
02:24	devn	ibdknox: can i trouble you with what im thinking must be a noob question?
02:24	devn	({:foo "ABC, :bar "baz"}, {:
02:24	devn	grr
02:25	devn	({:foo "abc", :bar "baz"}, {:foo nil, :bar "another"}, {:foo nil, :bar "and more"})
02:27	bbloom	devn: let me know if i understand what you're asking for
02:27	devn	I'd like to keep the value of foo around, so the next nil value I find can be changed to "abc" over and over again, so the above becomes ({:foo "abc", :bar "baz"}, {:foo "abc", :bar "another"}, {:foo "abc", :bar "and more"})
02:27	bbloom	you have a table, represented as a list of maps
02:27	bbloom	the table is represented with a sort of excel "fill down" for nil values
02:27	devn	precisely
02:27	bbloom	and you want to fill in the nil with the non nil above it?
02:28	bbloom	i'll take a crack at that :-P
02:29	devn	yes, it's late and ive been doing some ridiculous stuff. i highly doubt i need anything like a ref or an atom, it seems like partition or something might be just fine, or maybe I could just have a seq like: ("foo" nil nil "bar" nil "baz" nil nil nil) => ("foo" "foo" "foo" "bar" "bar" "baz" "baz" "baz" "baz")
02:29	devn	and then zipmap with the seq of values?
02:29	duck1123	using a ref or atom was going to be my suggestion
02:29	ibdknox	filter to get the first non-nil value, map (fn [cur] (update-in cur [:foo] #(or % my-backup-foo)))
02:30	devn	yeah, that seems wrong, but maybe not
02:30	bbloom	no need for a ref or atom at all
02:30	ibdknox	alternatively you could use reduce
02:30	devn	yeah i was looking at that, i guess i can conceive of how it's possible, but im not sure how to roll my own reduce fn to achieve my goal here
02:30	bbloom	(defn fill-down
02:30	bbloom	([rows] (fill-down rows {}))
02:30	bbloom	([rows values]
02:30	bbloom	...))
02:30	bbloom	start with that
02:31	bbloom	write it recursively from there
02:31	devn	that's good thinkin', mister.
02:31	bbloom	values is a map of current values
02:31	ibdknox	what's wrong with the filter/map solution?
02:31	devn	ibdknox: im not grokking, sorry
02:31	bbloom	nothing
02:32	devn	i was busy typing and didnt give it a full "think"
02:33	devn	&(filter #(not (nil? (:foo %))) ({:foo "bar"} {:foo nil}))
02:33	lazybot	⇒ ()
02:33	duck1123	if you have [{:foo "A"} {:foo nil} {:foo "B"} {:foo nil} {:foo nil}] should it be [{:foo "A"} {:foo "A"} {:foo "B"} {:foo "B"} {:foo "B"}]
02:33	ibdknox	,(let [vals [{:foo "cool"} {:foo nil} {:foo "blah"}] fill (first (filter :foo vals)) final (map (fn [cur] (update-in cur [:foo] #(or % fill))) vals)] final)
02:33	clojurebot	({:foo "cool"} {:foo {:foo "cool"}} {:foo "blah"})
02:33	ibdknox	hm
02:33	devn	duck1123: yes
02:34	ibdknox	,(let [vals [{:foo "cool"} {:foo nil} {:foo "blah"}] fill (:foo (first (filter :foo vals))) final (map (fn [cur] (update-in cur [:foo] #(or % fill))) vals)] final)
02:34	clojurebot	({:foo "cool"} {:foo "cool"} {:foo "blah"})
02:34	ibdknox	tada
02:35	devn	thanks ibdknox
02:35	devn	thanks duck1123 bbloom as well
02:35	devn	bbloom: i do sort of like the recursive variadic thing though
02:36	devn	ibdknox: in other news im sad to admit that I didn't know you could (filter :foo vals) like that
02:37	ibdknox	:)
02:39	bbloom	ah, i assumed you wanted it to work for multiple columns
02:39	devn	ibdknox: that is annoying in how nice it is. i was doing some pretty horrible stuff
02:39	bbloom	columns / fields… whatever
02:39	ibdknox	the multiple column solution isn't much different
02:40	bbloom	yeah, but i was starting with that which was harder & i'm not as fast as you ;-)
02:40	devn	ibdknox: let me ask you a crazy question: what was your thought process to arrive at that solution?
02:41	devn	i found myself all of a sudden back in imperative land, i was looking at stateful stuff, acting like a fool
02:41	devn	i was thinking i'd do some sort of (partition 2 1 ({:foo 1 :bar 2} {:foo nil :bar 3})) sort of thing
02:42	devn	and then for each group I would propagate :foo's value forward
02:43	devn	but that started to feel ridiculous because of all the comparison i needed to do, so i was thinking id just store it in an atom or a ref, but that felt horribly, horribly wrong
02:43	amalloy	ibdknox's solution looks like it grabs the first non-nil ever and fills all subsequent nils, regardless if something comes in the middle. not really what you wanted
02:43	ibdknox	ah didn't know that
02:44	devn	amalloy: here i am congratulating him, shaking the man's hand, but yeah, you're right
02:44	ibdknox	reduce is the simple solution then
02:44	devn	damnit.
02:45	amalloy	i think it works a lot better with reductions, really. easier and lazier
02:46	bbloom	break the problem down
02:46	bbloom	if you process the rows linearly, you don't actually need to look further back than the previous row
02:48	bbloom	(defn fill-from [row from]
02:48	bbloom	(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (or v (k from))]) (seq row))))
02:48	bbloom	(fill-from {:x 1 :y nil :z 3} {:x :a :y :b :z :c})
02:48	amalloy	devn: https://gist.github.com/1922332, for example
02:49	devn	amalloy: reductions comes up now for the 3rd time in 24 hours. I had never even used it prior to yesterday when we were chatting about 4clojure golf.
02:50	amalloy	on the other hand, why not just get a set of logs that don't have this stupid nickname omission
02:50	clojurebot	No entiendo
02:50	devn	amalloy: because i know of no one who has logs that go back to the first day chouser joined the channel
02:50	bbloom	ooo reductions is cool.
02:51	devn	amalloy: and i want to make a markov chain for rhickey, and he's never on irc anymore. :(
02:51	amalloy	haha
02:51	devn	"This is orthogonal."
02:51	amalloy	devn, the secret master-mind between @FakeRichHickey
02:52	amalloy	bbloom: this kinda feels like an abuse of reductions, but i guess i don't really have a feel for how it's "intended" to be used
02:53	bbloom	amalloy: well it's a clever way to get access to "prev"
02:53	devn	I have a coworker who is working on generative knots, algebraic knots
02:53	devn	He was looking for exactly what reductions offers the other day
02:54	devn	bbloom: well said
02:55	devn	it feels like there should be a way to unroll and name history, no?
02:56	bbloom	if you combine my fill-from
02:56	bbloom	(defn fill-from [row from] (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (or v (k from))]) (seq row))))
02:56	devn	sort of like scheduling with at-at in overtone
02:56	bbloom	and that use of reductions:
02:56	bbloom	(rest (reductions (fn [prev next] (fill-from next prev)) {} '({:x 1 :y 2} {:x nil :y 3} {:x 4 :y nil})))
02:56	bbloom	you get multi-column filling ({:x 1, :y 2} {:x 1, :y 3} {:x 4, :y 3})
02:56	devn	like (at (- t (now)) (:foo m))
02:57	bbloom	i'm sure there is a cleaner way to implement fill-from....
02:57	devn	or (at (- (transformations 3) (now)) (:foo m)))
02:58	bbloom	ah, you can omit the "(seq"
02:58	devn	amalloy: btw, didn't get the chance, but thanks for the help there. much appreciated.
02:58	bbloom	is there some kind of easier way to map over a map?
02:58	amalloy	i wish i could understand other people's solutions to the really-hard problems on 4clojure. i feel like there's a lot of interesting approaches to learn there that all go over my head
02:59	amalloy	which i guess is what we get for encouraging brevity
03:00	devn	amalloy: this problem is part of bringing walton back from the dead, i have roughly 18,000 examples of clojure code from IRC alone. I need to start running expressions and subexpressions from pastebins etc. in clojail and amass a truly epic list of examples
03:01	devn	the plan from there is to allow people to rate a few different aspects of a given example: idiomatic? 3/5, concise? 4/5, etc.
03:01	devn	and finally, id like to roll the "winners" into clojuredocs automatically
03:02	devn	amalloy: i have a feeling there is a lot of opportunity to do something similar with all of the data 4clojure has amassed
03:05	aperiodic	amalloy: your solution to one of the early 4clojure problems (i think reversing a sequence) that employed into blew my mind
03:05	callen	now I want to look it up.
03:05	amalloy	haha. i was not the first to come up with that
03:05	amalloy	man, that was the really early days of 4clojure
03:05	amalloy	almost a year ago, now!
03:05	aperiodic	amalloy: i felt like i was hot shit cause i had some haskell-ish 5-line solution
03:06	callen	aperiodic: you mean into ()
03:06	aperiodic	callen: yeah
03:06	callen	aperiodic: I've come up with some good ones in the past couple days :)
03:06	callen	aperiodic: you should follow me on 4clojure!
03:06	callen	aperiodic: and I'll follow you.
03:07	aperiodic	callen: sure! maybe it'll give me motivation to do more of them ;)
03:07	callen	aperiodic: my account name is bitemyapp
03:07	bbloom	so i'm attempting something that is far above my skill level…. but so far it's going relatively well
03:07	callen	bbloom: vut?
03:07	bbloom	I am building a clojurescript macro for defining dom trees
03:08	callen	aperiodic: what's your account name and how do I find you?
03:08	devn	(inc callen)
03:08	lazybot	⇒ 1
03:08	devn	[for sayign vut]
03:08	aperiodic	callen: mine is same as this one
03:08	devn	saying*
03:08	callen	amalloy: how do I follow people that aren't in the top users list?
03:08	bbloom	and the macro uses the clojurescript compiler's analyze function to figure out what to data bind to by looking for calls to deref
03:08	amalloy	https://4clojure.com/user/aperiodic
03:09	aperiodic	amalloy: that's the one
03:09	callen	amalloy: thank you thank you, would you consider making a more obvious link to something like "my profile" so people can know it off the bat?
03:09	callen	aperiodic: hey, I've even gotten more done than you. Wanna race?
03:09	aperiodic	i don't think i've seen this user page before
03:10	callen	I definitely haven't, there's no obvious link to it anywhere.
03:10	devn	follow me if you'd like
03:10	callen	it's useful though.
03:10	callen	devn: done!
03:10	callen	devn: you're further ahead of me :)
03:10	amalloy	yeah, now that following (the only user-based action anyone ever takes) is possible from the user-list, the links to profiles aren't very prominent
03:10	amalloy	but you can also just look at the list of all users instead of the top 100
03:11	callen	I wasn't able to easily find that list
03:11	callen	nor was it obvious how to search by username
03:11	callen	amalloy: this is on github right?
03:11	callen	right.
03:11	callen	h/o
03:11	aperiodic	callen: i'm not one for speed, myself. i will try to fit doing some in to my daily routine, though, in a token effort to outstrip you
03:11	callen	aperiodic: I will load up on coffee
03:11	aperiodic	would probably be a good way to get the brain working in the morning
03:12	callen	aperiodic: mayhaps. I keep hearing about writers experimenting with trying to get some words written just as the day has begun.
03:12	devn	callen: beat me!
03:13	callen	I don't know if I can catch up to you, you have like double the questions on me :(
03:13	devn	aperiodic: it's sort of the exact opposite for me honestly. sometimes i get a little...how shall i say this...obsessed with finding a more elegant solution
03:13	callen	devn: 80 to my 45. It'd be a helluva haul.
03:13	bbloom	4clojure is fun, but i found that it seems to jump around a bit
03:13	bbloom	skipping ahead
03:13	devn	if i get focused on it in the morning sometimes im at work and cant think about anything else
03:13	callen	bbloom: aye.
03:13	aperiodic	devn: you get nerd-sniped
03:14	bbloom	when you finish some "elementary" problems, it basically jumps you to medium
03:14	bbloom	i keep going back to the problem list and clicking the first one :-P
03:14	bbloom	(after sorting by difficulty)
03:14	devn	difficulty is just flat out wrong for some of the problems in there
03:15	devn	"elementary" my left foot -- honestly some of those categories should be changed so people new to clojure dont go: "holy shit, i can't even solve this elementary problem"
03:16	amalloy	bbloom: eh? the default sort order is pretty good IMO. sorts mostly by "number of times solved" IIRC
03:16	amalloy	on the assumption that easier problems are solved most often
03:16	bbloom	either way — the issue is the "now try" links presented to you when you solve one
03:17	amalloy	oh yeah, i bet those aren't nearly as smart
03:17	devn	nod, sometimes they just keep calling you back to a problem you don't want to work on anymore
03:18	devn	amalloy: maybe 4clojure should not try to class problems and do something like project euler does
03:18	devn	new problems are new. old problems are old. number of times solved is the default sort order. suggestions are made based on the next problem you havent solved which has the highest number of people who have successfully solved it.
03:19	devn	mainly im advocating 4clojure drop the "easy, elementary, medium, hard" thing
03:20	devn	i run a meetup group and people freak out a little bit when it says it's easy and they can't figure it out. it's sort of discouraging to newbs IMO.
03:20	bbloom	devn: agreed. i was kinda saddened when i struggled on an "easy"
03:21	bbloom	i thought i'd at least get to mediums before panicing :-)
03:22	devn	yeah, bbloom -- you're not the first person, trust me. someone who is new to clojure and starts getting their parens in order hits an easy problem on 4clojure and suddenly feels like: "oh my god, there's no way I'll ever be good at this."
03:22	devn	it's sort of the exact opposite of what the site was designed to do
03:22	bbloom	the problem for me is i don't know the std lib
03:22	bbloom	would really like to see more links to the docs
03:22	bbloom	or relevant doc strings already in the right margin
03:23	bbloom	i'm pretty good at thinking recursively and solving the problems
03:23	bbloom	but sometimes i just write waaaay more code than i have to b/c i have no idea what tools are available to me
03:23	devn	bbloom: docs in general need improvement. tooling around docs, etc. people are talking about predicate dispatch for google summer of code.
03:23	devn	we should be getting people in school to make the docs awesome.
03:23	bbloom	predicate dispatch?
03:23	callen	devn: I sort by solve numbers, but there are still some jumps in difficulty, but not as severe as difficulty sorting.
03:23	AimHere	bbloom > Real lispers can solve ALL their programming problems just using lambda and nothing else ;)
03:24	callen	we're doing Church Numbers again?
03:24	devn	haha
03:24	bbloom	AimHere: Yeah, you can but that doesn't mean you want to :-P
03:24	aperiodic	anyone who brings that up should be forced to use a turing tarpit for a week
03:24	devn	callen: i think it's more natural for someone just starting on the site to sort by difficulty
03:24	devn	either way, difficulty sorting is fucked, pardon my french
03:25	devn	it's a category that just doesn't need to be there
03:25	callen	I learned pretty quickly that it wasn't a good idea.
03:25	callen	I have experience with Euler, so I gravitated towards that anyway.
03:25	devn	callen: im a masochist, what can i say?
03:25	callen	I'm working on the interleave one right now.
03:25	callen	scouring the API for something that will inspire me.
03:26	devn	callen: if you want a fun challenge I enjoyed http://www.4clojure.com/problem/solutions/128 recently
03:27	devn	callen: honestly, pop open core.clj and just read the whole damned thing like 3-5 times.
03:27	callen	devn: no, don't mess with my mojo, I'm still an idiot and struggling with elementary/easy problems.
03:27	devn	then set.clj, zip.clj
03:27	callen	I'm not sure if that's cheating or not.
03:27	devn	it's absolutely not cheating. it's learning. :)
03:29	devn	callen: sometimes you can hunt in core.clj for subtle references to your problem, for instance: it must result in a lazy sequence
03:29	bbloom	like i just did "Last Element"
03:29	devn	you can regex across core.clj for lazy-seq and get a nice private tour of lazy-seq usage as a result
03:30	bbloom	i knew about "rest" but didn't know about "next" which returns nil instead of '()
03:30	bbloom	amalloy's solution was like cheating :-P
03:30	amalloy	haha is that one (comp peek vec)?
03:30	bbloom	i mean looking at ti was like cheating
03:30	devn	heh, but maybe yours was easy to read? understand?
03:31	bbloom	well clearly (comp first reverse) is easy
03:31	bbloom	but inefficient
03:31	devn	amalloy has absolutely terrorized me ever since I started doing 4clojure problems
03:31	devn	i finish one, his is better
03:31	devn	such is life
03:31	bbloom	i had (fn [xs] (let [x (first xs)
03:31	bbloom	xs (rest xs)]
03:31	bbloom	(if (empty? xs)
03:31	bbloom	x
03:31	bbloom	(recur xs))))
03:32	bbloom	but next & if-let simplifies that greatly
03:32	bbloom	and i didnt need to let x at all
03:32	devn	you could destructure also
03:33	bbloom	ah, destructuring returns nil instead of '()
03:33	bbloom	gotcha.
03:33	muhoo	nom nom nom! java hungry! java want ALL my swap and ram! om nom nom!
03:33	devn	(fn [x [f & r]] ...) or something
03:33	devn	muhoo: heh
03:34	bbloom	muhoo: I assume that means destructuring is ram hungry? haha
03:34	muhoo	nothing to do with destructuring, just in general running clojure
03:35	bbloom	the price you pay for so many damn extra maps, vectors, and functions being generated all over the place :-/
03:35	muhoo	i was so happy when i figured out (defn foo [& {:keys [bar baz]}] .. though
03:35	devn	muhoo: i have an old gist...1 sec
03:36	muhoo	in general destructuring is one of those generally-useful things i'll use everywhere, like when i first learnd python and first discovered list comprehensions
03:38	devn	muhoo: https://gist.github.com/439139
03:39	devn	err not that one
03:39	devn	this one: https://gist.github.com/438897
03:39	bbloom	yeah, destructuring is awesome
03:39	bbloom	although i wish there was nicer syntax for map destructuring
03:39	bbloom	the :keys thing seems weird to me
03:39	bbloom	i wonder why not use the #{} set reader syntax?
03:39	devn	because a map isn't a set?
03:40	devn	bbloom: honestly, you could go back in the irc logs and read exactly why
03:40	devn	map destructuring was discussed at length a couple of years ago IIRC
03:41	bbloom	but the keys to extract are a set ;-)
03:41	bbloom	i have no idea how you'd begin to find that in the logs
03:41	bbloom	googling for it produces a TON of results from the logs
03:42	devn	bbloom: go to n01se.net, click the clojure logs link, and use the search in there, google "map destructuring"
03:43	devn	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-04-23.html
03:43	bbloom	yeah… i did that
03:43	bbloom	10 pages of results
03:43	bbloom	lol
03:44	devn	so read from 2008 on, get manly about it -- those are logs of your forefathers chatting about map destructuring, sonny
03:44	devn	:D
03:44	devn	rich and chouser at length talking about it -- if you want to get at the root of why things are the way they are, those logs are what you're actually looking for
03:45	bbloom	found it
03:45	bbloom	thanks
03:46	devn	np. it's pretty awesome those logs are around. there aren't too many languages you can read that give you as much insight as the #clojure logs do
03:46	devn	at least in terms of language design
03:46	callen	the first time I came in here, hickey helped me.
03:46	callen	:)
03:47	devn	i think i already said this tonight, but I wish he'd hang out in here more often, then again maybe it's for the best that he doesn't. this channel had like 25-50 people in it and it was mostly composed of LtU afficionados.
03:48	bbloom	heh.. apparently rich's first suggestion chouser's first implementation used sets for destructuring
03:48	bbloom	i don't feel so dumb ;-)
03:48	devn	these days not so much -- and that's a good thing, but it seems like a terrible burden to always be on the hook like that
03:48	devn	bbloom: haha
03:48	devn	(inc bbloom)
03:48	lazybot	⇒ 1
03:49	callen	(inc devn)
03:49	lazybot	⇒ 2
03:49	callen	just for spreading the love.
03:52	bbloom	i'm not sure i really follow why the ruled out sets tho...
03:52	bbloom	it seems like it ruled out the :as keyword
03:53	bbloom	b/c the set is already constructed before the macro sees it
03:53	bbloom	i guess that's it then...
03:53	bbloom	it's a shame b/c i reaaaaaally like CoffeeScript's destructuring
03:54	bbloom	http://coffeescript.org/#destructuring
03:54	bbloom	oh well
03:56	devn	bbloom: work through the source for let
03:56	devn	bbloom: coffeescript shmoffeescript :)
03:57	bbloom	can't help it — started building my startup before clojurescript existed :-P coffeescript was a really good call
03:57	devn	bbloom: it's a lot of sugar with some really useful bits IMO
03:58	bbloom	that's what's great about it: it's basically a 1:1 mapping
03:58	bbloom	a lot less typing and a lot less silly mistakes
03:58	bbloom	if you have to write js, you might as well write coffee :-P
03:58	devn	but! does it do dead code elimination? :)
03:59	devn	js apps grow and grow and grow and grow and...you get the picture
03:59	bbloom	we don't have any dead code ;-) modulo a forgotten utility function or two and the unused parts of jquery
03:59	devn	clojurescript kills needless cruft by default
04:00	Raynes	Luckily I don't have to write much of it.
04:00	bbloom	nothing stops you from using the google compiler on coffeescript
04:00	ibdknox	I'm uploading my video :)
04:00	ibdknox	supposedly 2mins left
04:00	devn	bbloom: im talking about advanced mode compilation
04:00	Raynes	ibdknox: What video?
04:00	bbloom	we used to run advanced compilation on our coffee
04:01	ibdknox	Raynes: I built bret victor's live-editable game in CLJS
04:01	bbloom	but it wasn't worth the trouble b/c it only saved 4 or 5%
04:01	devn	bbloom: you can minify your coffeescript, you won't get an iota of benefit in advanced mode
04:01	bbloom	after gzipping, it was inconsequential
04:01	bbloom	b/c we dont have a lot of external libs
04:01	devn	bbloom: read more about what advanced mode does -- i struggle to believe your source was annotated for advanced mode compilation
04:02	bbloom	i used to work at Google… I used closure before it was publically available ;-)
04:02	bbloom	the problem is that jquery DWARFS our codebase
04:02	devn	bbloom: so you annotated constructors and all of that business in coffeescript?
04:02	bbloom	so even if we spent a ton of time panstakingly annotating, it wasn't providing more than a few kb of savings
04:03	devn	bbloom: fair enough
04:03	bbloom	i mostly avoid coffeescript's class construct....
04:04	bbloom	advanced optimizations make a ton of sense for cljs
04:04	bbloom	and i totally support the decision to build on top of the closure compiler
04:04	bbloom	it was a great call
04:04	bbloom	but i don't advocate the closure compiler for most people writing rich js client apps
04:04	ibdknox	I wouldn't either.
04:05	ibdknox	http://www.chris-granger.com/
04:05	ibdknox	CLJS video there ^
04:05	ibdknox	rather, post pointing to it. Direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XUWpze_A_s&feature=youtu.be
04:06	accel	suppose I am writing a OSX app store app in (1) clojure and (2) opengl [thus no clojurescript]; what is the best target language to compile my clojure code to?
04:06	accel	I'm thinking objective-C/C, but I don't know if there is something with better matching of clojure primitives (concurrency / persistent data structures)
04:07	bbloom	ibdknox: that is super cool.
04:07	ibdknox	did you get to the projection thing?
04:07	devn	ibdknox: i want your .emacs.d
04:07	ibdknox	that's by far the coolest
04:07	bbloom	still watching
04:07	devn	ibdknox: how the hell did you get that in a split buffer?
04:07	ibdknox	devn: that's a webpage :p
04:07	devn	w3m?
04:08	ibdknox	I use vim ;)
04:08	devn	okay, then i want your .vimrc
04:08	devn	now.
04:08	devn	:)
04:08	bbloom	w00t fellow vimmer :-)
04:08	bbloom	whooaaaa that projection is bad ass.
04:08	devn	i use both. i like my SLIME, but I use vim at work, emacs and home. that's sort of my default.
04:08	accel	I use vim too
04:08	accel	where is this m agical screen shot?
04:09	Raynes	ibdknox: Did you ever figure out the new vimclojure haskell nrepl stuff?
04:09	ibdknox	no
04:09	Raynes	Damn it.
04:09	ibdknox	I know nothing about haskell. I didn't even try :p
04:09	Raynes	Is he allergic to docs?
04:09	ibdknox	lol
04:09	ibdknox	I don't think it's ready for "the public" quite yet
04:09	Raynes	He commits "Basic gradle building of Haskell stuff" as if anybody in the world actually uses gradle.
04:10	Raynes	Or, I guess knows how to use gradle.
04:10	ibdknox	lol
04:10	bbloom	hmm interesting… games tend to have (loop render update input) like a REPL
04:10	accel	anyone have sample code for: this is a piece of clojure code, that using only java libraries, pumps out a sine curve? (for playing a basic pitch)
04:10	bbloom	so redefining functions that are used on the next frame is neat
04:10	devn	ibdknox: that video is awesome.
04:11	bbloom	i'm trying to make a dom-building library that intelligently re-renders subtrees when functions are redefined
04:11	bbloom	hence why i needed to implement Var in cljs, so I could use add-watch :-)
04:11	ibdknox	haha neat
04:11	callen	man. Clojure fanatics have it bad.
04:11	bbloom	?
04:11	callen	mainline people have to write Java to support their favorite language, cljs people have to write JS to support their favorite language.
04:12	callen	at least Java people mostly get to write Java to support Java.
04:12	bbloom	heh
04:12	Raynes	I… have no idea what you just said.
04:12	callen	Raynes: I have a harder time wrapping my head around (lazy-seq ...) than you do, surely you can tease it out!
04:12	ibdknox	now that I can compile cljs on the fly... no more js ;)
04:13	bbloom	http://vimeo.com/36579366 vimeo i skinda borked css right now
04:14	ibdknox	I wonder if I'm the first to have replicated his thing
04:14	ibdknox	also I want to know how he got the graphics for braid
04:14	bbloom	dude, super nice work on that thing, very cool
04:15	devn	ibdknox: the artist for braid made his slides :)
04:15	devn	btw ibdknox WHY'D YOU HAVE TO POST VIDEO IN HERE? I LIKE TEXT AND IMAGES.
04:16	ibdknox	hah
04:16	callen	devn: how many kidneys?
04:16	ibdknox	that guy is retarded
04:16	ibdknox	that thread made me sad
04:16	ibdknox	lol
04:16	devn	it makes me happy. it recovered quickly
04:16	ibdknox	his loss
04:16	devn	it's not like the ken wesson threads of old
04:16	devn	those would rage on for a week
04:17	ibdknox	heh yeah
04:17	callen	devn: ken wesson threads?
04:18	accel	what does sconv do in clojure?
04:18	ibdknox	alright guys. Way past my bedtime :)
04:18	devn	same
04:18	devn	night all
04:18	Raynes	Lightweights.
04:19	ibdknox	:p
04:20	ibdknox	Raynes: did you watch the video?
04:20	Raynes	Nope.
04:20	ibdknox	unfortunately we can no longer be friends then
04:20	ibdknox	~guards
04:20	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
04:21	Raynes	I'm sure gonna miss you.
04:21	ibdknox	haha
04:21	ibdknox	G'nite!
04:21	Raynes	Night
04:43	gtuckerkellogg	just tried my first lein. Works fine except for the shell-wrapper, which throws an exception
04:44	gtuckerkellogg	it complains "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/main"
04:45	gtuckerkellogg	but i'm using (I believe) tha main in my project namespace
04:45	gtuckerkellogg	i clearly don't understand lein
04:59	gtuckerkellogg	anyone out there?
05:01	Dyresen	Who knows?
05:01	Dyresen	Nasa has found planets that can be habitable though.
05:04	gtuckerkellogg	excellent
05:10	ljos	Hi - I remeber reading about a distributed programming platform written in clojure, but I cannot remember the name or where I read it. Any tips?
05:12	echo-area	ljos: Storm?
05:16	ljos	echo-area: I don't think that was it. They where claiming something about not using eval, and the code written for storm looks a bit differnt than what i remember.
05:17	vijaykiran	ljos: avout ?
05:17	vijaykiran	oh wait that's distributed state
05:19	ljos	I was just a bit interested in that platform I read about, but it is not that important, what I need is a simple way to distribute load over multiple machines. Any recommendations?
05:27	ljos	I was looking at ZeroMQ, but if there exists something that is native Clojure I would like that better.
05:31	lucian	there are lots of things for java
05:32	lucian	like hadoop and such
05:43	ljos	Hadoop seems a bit overkill for my use.
05:49	lucian	there are lots of other similar things too
05:50	lucian	i'm having trouble understanding why this doesn't terminat with n >= 4 https://gist.github.com/1923053
05:52	bohl	Hello everyone, this is my first attempt at writing a servlet in clojure. My starting point is yogthos / clojure-maven-examples, which does not work out of the box. After removing dependency on broken "json" maven package, I'm still getting "error opening zip file" for clojure-contrib-1.1.0.jar, which was imported by maven, on tomcat startup. Is there either a working servlet example, or where to get a functional clojure-contrib-1.1.0.j
05:52	ljos	lucian: that is why I am asking for recommendations :P
05:53	lucian	ljos: for some tasks, Cassandra could be a simpler replacement
05:57	ljos	lucian: the database? I don't want a database. What I want is an easy way to set up distributing computational load over several machines. Basically I want to pass some data to another process on another machine that does part of the calculation.
05:58	lucian	since Cassandra has map-reduce, it could do that, but only for some tasks as i said
05:59	lucian	i don't know of an established java thing other than hadoop
05:59	lucian	try #java or something?
06:00	lucian	actually there's cajo http://java.net/projects/cajo/pages/Home
06:01	ljos	lucian: I would prefer that it is in Clojure though.
06:05	raek	bohl: the "error opening zip file" error sounds like the downloaded jar got corrupted. try removing the .m2 directory in your home
06:05	raek	bohl: there is a library for interfacing with servlet based servers: ring
06:06	raek	it eliminates the need to generate a custom class that implements the servlet interface and lets you program handler functions purely in clojure
06:06	raek	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring
06:07	raek	this describes the basic concepts: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/SPEC
06:08	raek	bohl: anything that uses clojure-contrib is basically outdated
06:08	raek	and clojure 1.1 is pretty old by now
06:09	raek	bohl: the json library that used to be in contrib is now its own project (and should work fine): https://github.com/clojure/data.json
06:09	raek	[org.clojure/data.json "0.1.2"]
06:10	raek	(I also assume you know what Leiningen is. If not, don't do anything until you have checked it out.)
06:11	ljos	lucian: btw, your problem. It is because the list doesn't grow. So if l is supposed to be longer then 3 it never grows to that size.
06:12	ljos	lucian: when n is 3 it creates this list: (1 3 1), and n = 4 this list (1 4 1)
06:12	lucian	ljos: right, good point
06:25	yesudeep	That video about Inventing on Principle by Bret Victor was perhaps the most awesome talk I have heard. Thank you for sharing it here. I like moving pictures. Thank you!
06:26	yesudeep	@ bbloom
06:27	G0SUB	yesudeep
06:27	yesudeep	hey G0SUB =)
06:35	G0SUB	yesudeep, howdy!
06:36	yesudeep	G0SUB: doing great bro. =)
06:36	G0SUB	yesudeep, cool. what brings you to #clojure? have you been playing with it?
06:36	yesudeep	G0SUB: yep. i have just begun playing with it. =)
06:37	G0SUB	yesudeep, awesome.
06:37	yesudeep	I find clojurescript extremely fascinating.
06:37	bohl	raek: thanks
06:38	G0SUB	yesudeep, indeed, it is.
06:41	gtuckerkellogg	a simple "hello world" drawn directly from the Leiningen tutorial works find, but for some stupidity of mind I can't get the :shell-wrapper behaving
06:41	gtuckerkellogg	stupidity of mine that is.
06:54	lucian	ljos: heh, it was a simple case of using partition 2 1 instead :) thanks
07:26	y3di	does notp and p imply p?
07:27	gtuckerkellogg	i am still stumped
07:33	raek	y3di: yes. not-p and p implies anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion
07:35	y3di	thats what i figured, just sounds weird when said aloud to me.
07:44	timonv_	y3di its simple, notp and p cannot hold, it produces a falsum, so anything can be true
07:48	bohl	None of the "ring" examples from github use maven, does anyone know how to produce a .war file from them?
08:19	raek	bohl: you can use the "lein-ring" Leiningen plugin to generate WAR files
08:20	raek	bohl: the majority of Clojure projects use Leiningen as the build tool (which uses Maven internally for dependencies)
08:46	tsdh	Wasn't there a seq function which is a shorthand for [(filter p coll) (remove p coll)], or did I just dream it?
08:47	raek	in the old contrib, yes
08:47	raek	(I think it was called "separate")
08:48	raek	you can use (juxt filter remove) instead
08:48	tsdh	raek: Oh, yes. I use juxt far too seldomly anyway. :-)
08:53	mdeboard	&(docs juxt)
08:53	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: docs in this context
08:54	mdeboard	&(doc juxt)
08:54	lazybot	⇒ "([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
08:54	mdeboard	huh. I think I got juxt and comp confused :\
09:28	michaelr525	hello!
09:59	arkh	I'm not able to do a 'lein uberjar' with a dummy project and I followed the instructions in the leiningen tutorial. Error is "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.core/genclass"
10:00	arkh	I declared a :main in my project.clj, a :genclass in my asdf.core namespace and defined a -main function
10:00	arkh	lein version comes back with "Leiningen 1.6.1.1 on Java 1.6.0_26 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM"
10:02	tsdh	arkh: Hm, there's indeed no clojure.core/genclass but only a clojure.core/gen-class...
10:04	arkh	tsdh: omg - you're awesome. I had that as a typo ... I changed :genclass to :gen-class and now it's happy. Thank you.
10:06	tsdh	arkh: :-)
10:07	babilen	arkh: btw -- Your leiningen is slightly outdated and you might want to install the current version. That can be done with "lein upgrade" (if you installed it manually) or via your package manager (if you use Debian).
10:08	arkh	babilen: thanks for the heads up
10:32	lnostdal	seems agents "picks up" thread local bindings
10:33	lnostdal	..is there some option or something that makes it not do that?
10:45	r4vi	is there a march clojure-nyc meet? I'm going to be in town 15-20th and nothing shown on the meetup page yet.
10:47	dnolen	r4vi: not that I'm aware of, I think the folks that normally organize it are pretty swamped w/ work.
10:48	benares_98	would upgrading leiningen also update clojure to 1.3.0?
10:50	TimMc	benares_98:Depends what you mean.
10:51	TimMc	lein repl outsid eof a project uses lein's own clojure dependency, but inside a project you can use whatever you want
10:51	TimMc	also, lein 1.x or lein 2?
10:51	benares_98	that's what I meant, thanks
10:59	mdeboard	I guess I don't get clojure packaging quite yet... I'm trying to import a module I wrote last night into another project, but getting an ExceptionInInitialization error. I tried both `(use 'icarus.core)` and :require'ing it in the ns definition, but either way I get an exception (the latter gives me a NoClassDefFound error). Can anyone spot what I'm doing wrong? https://github.com/mattdeboard/Icarus/blob/master/src/i
10:59	mdeboard	carus/core.clj
10:59	mdeboard	https://github.com/mattdeboard/Icarus/blob/master/src/icarus/core.clj
11:00	TimMc	mdeboard: I think the error is going to be foudn in your relying project.
11:01	mdeboard	Really? Weird...
11:01	mdeboard	Why do you say this
11:01	TimMc	Because the lib itself looks fine.
11:01	mdeboard	Darn
11:02	TimMc	Also, I've gotten the errors you describe when I've messed up dependencies on other projects.
11:02	mdeboard	I can (use) and (require) korma just fine in the same thing so idgi
11:02	mdeboard	100% at a loss
11:02	TimMc	mdeboard: Have you saved your project.clj file to disk?
11:02	TimMc	(Distressingly frequent failure mode.)
11:03	mdeboard	TimMc: Indeed I have
11:03	TimMc	Does `lein classpath` include the icarus jar?
11:03	mdeboard	TimMc: It does indeed
11:04	TimMc	How about (loaded-libs) from inside the REPL?
11:04	mdeboard	Not in there
11:04	TimMc	(Although maybe that depends on require having been used)
11:05	mdeboard	Everything -- including dependency of Icarus, clojure-solr -- is loaded except Icarus.
11:05	TimMc	Fascinating.
11:07	mdeboard	new and exotic ways of screwing something up
11:07	TimMc	It's going to be something stupid.
11:07	mdeboard	yeah
11:09	TimMc	Mmm, I think you have the error wrong.
11:09	mdeboard	orly
11:10	mdeboard	http://ubuntuone.com/3iEmF8XJV8UBYPz93lpYE3 is the error
11:10	TimMc	https://refheap.com/paste/869
11:10	TimMc	Oh, stupid SLIME.
11:11	mdeboard	need more hand-holding toward the problem
11:13	mdeboard	is it the filter collision?
11:14	TimMc	Ah! Could be.
11:14	TimMc	You're not excluding clojure.core/filter from refer, and it is a multimethod that is causing the problem...
11:19	ibdknox\|away	dnolen: as requested http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3639441
11:19	dnolen	sweet!
11:21	ibdknox\|away	for those interested, I wrote one of bret victor's demoes in cljs. The video is only 5 mins and I think it might be one of the coolest things I've worked on. :) Check it out!
11:22	TimMc	mdeboard: require gives a different error in Clojure 1.2.1 and 1.3.0
11:23	TimMc	ibdknox\|away: THat looks fantastic.
11:23	ibdknox	TimMc: it's so cool
11:23	ibdknox	the projection thing is ridiculous
11:23	dnolen	ibdknox: dude, that is AWESOME
11:23	mdeboard	ibdknox: Can you re-link please
11:24	ibdknox	mdeboard: hm?
11:24	mdeboard	ibdknox: To the HN submission
11:24	mdeboard	closed emacs and lost it
11:24	ibdknox	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3639441
11:24	mdeboard	TimMc: Renamed filter and it works fine now
11:26	TimMc	ibdknox: Holy shit.
11:27	ibdknox	hehe
11:27	ibdknox	:D
11:27	ibdknox	like I said, definitely one of the coolest things I've worked on. :)
11:32	y3di	chris ganger on his game!
11:32	mdeboard	literally
11:33	jimduey	ibdknox: nice work.
11:33	TimMc	ibdknox: Can you edit the code while the piece is moving? (Theoretically.)
11:33	jweiss_	is there a straightforward way to get the namespaced qualified symbol for a var?
11:33	ibdknox	TimMc: yes
11:33	TimMc	sweeet
11:34	ibdknox	TimMc: I had him originally moving by himself back and forth
11:34	y3di	ibdknox: how long have you been working on it?
11:34	ibdknox	I did it yesterday
11:34	rlb	ibdknox: what was the link again? (erc crashed)
11:34	ibdknox	took about 7-8ish hours?
11:34	ibdknox	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3639441
11:34	rlb	thx
11:34	y3di	so beast... gj
11:35	ibdknox	most of my time was spent dealing with some stupid AOT issue
11:35	ibdknox	it would've been faster
11:36	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah that sounds weird, does lein run trigger that?
11:36	jonasen	Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate crate/macros__init.class or crate/macros.clj on classpath: , compiling:(box.clj:22)
11:36	ibdknox	dnolen: I dunno, basically it would work the first time and not anytime after that
11:36	jonasen	^^ I get this when running "lein run" on cljs-live
11:37	ibdknox	jonasen: one second, I forgot I had those as checkouts
11:37	jonasen	ibdknox: ok
11:37	TimMc	ibdknox: Posted to reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/q88yc/connecting_to_your_creation_as_illustrated_by_a/
11:39	ibdknox	dnolen: I dunno, but it seems that if .classes exist for the compiler, it no longer works
11:40	ibdknox	TimMc: cool :)
11:40	dnolen	ibdknox: me hates AOT, it's a massive pain to debug
11:40	mdeboard	ibdknox: I got the error jonasen has as well
11:40	ibdknox	mdeboard: jonasen: pull
11:40	TimMc	BANG
11:41	mdeboard	lol
11:41	mdeboard	I thought about typing that but wanted to make sure it worked :P
11:42	ibdknox	well
11:42	ibdknox	technically you can't rebuild the cljs with that
11:42	ibdknox	it took a modifed version of monet to make this work
11:42	ibdknox	the core cljs that runs it
11:42	TimMc	clojurebot: pull is <reply>BANG
11:42	clojurebot	In Ordnung
11:42	ibdknox	I'll clean up my changes to monet a little later and push it
11:45	ibdknox	mdeboard: it work?
11:45	mdeboard	ibdknox: Yeah was just playing with it, that's awesome
11:45	ibdknox	good :)
11:46	mdeboard	I can always rely on you to make me wonder why I'm such an underachiever
11:46	mdeboard	:P
11:46	ibdknox	lol
11:46	ibdknox	technomancy: is there some way to prevent lein from creating .class files on run?
11:48	gtrak``	,(Long/maxValue)
11:48	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: maxValue, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:48	ibdknox	I'm glad I didn't end up trying to put it up live
11:49	ibdknox	HN likes it and it would've been toast by now
11:51	dnolen	ibdknox: it's a pretty stunning demo. nice looking ClojureScript too.
11:51	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:51	ibdknox	dnolen: eh, I'm sure I did some really gross things
11:51	dnolen	ibdknox: heh well I didn't see anything too offensive on the first pass :)
11:51	tmciver	ibdknox: I tried your code as well. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but I get a "can't recur here" error: https://refheap.com/paste/870
11:52	ibdknox	tmciver: rm -rf classes/cljs/
11:52	ibdknox	I'll add the error text to the Readme
11:53	tmciver	ibdknox: that did it. Thanks.
11:54	tscheibl	ibdknox: just out of interest, did you know of https://github.com/teropa/hiccups when you started "crate"? .. I stumbled over crate when I was taking a look at waltz
11:55	lucian	ibdknox: that's really awesome
11:55	ibdknox	tscheibl: yes, it goes to an html string, which doesn't let me do all the cool things I can do.. like embed jQuery objects and such
11:55	ibdknox	tscheibl: also, pinot was first :)
11:55	tscheibl	ibdknox: ah, ok... that's a good reason :)
11:57	gtrak``	ibdknox: oo pretty
11:57	ibdknox	apparently redit people don't like it
11:57	ibdknox	wonder why
11:59	beffbernard	Can someone repost the link? I wanna see too :(
11:59	Bronsa	ibdknox: how to draw new blocks?
11:59	ibdknox	Bronsa: click on the canvas once it has focus
11:59	ibdknox	beffbernard: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3639441
11:59	Bronsa	tried that, it's not working
11:59	Bronsa	maybe it's vimperator
11:59	ibdknox	ah, could be
11:59	ibdknox	I only tried it in Chrome
12:00	ibdknox	since it needs some pretty ridiculous JS horsepower
12:00	gtrak``	do you keep track of all the state to get the jump trajectory?
12:01	tmciver	ibdknox: yeah, I'm on FF and clicking to add bricks does not work for me.
12:01	Bronsa	heh, workds fine on chromium, doesnt on firefox
12:01	Bronsa	*works
12:01	ibdknox	I'll add that to the readme lol
12:01	Bronsa	lol
12:01	ibdknox	gtrak``: the last 100 ticks
12:01	gtrak``	nice
12:13	ibdknox	off to real work :(
12:13	mdeboard	GOOD RIDDANCE
12:14	gtrak``	haha
12:21	wiseen	is there a better way to do : `(foo ... ~@(when x [x])) - where x is a value or nil and I don't want nil and the result should be expanded only when not nil - wrapping x in list seems hackish so maybe there is a better way ?
12:30	tscheibl	,(flatten (seq {:a 1 :b 2}))
12:30	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b 2)
12:36	tscheibl	,(let [m {:a 1 :b {:x 42}}] (interleave (keys m) (vals m)))
12:36	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b {:x 42})
12:36	tscheibl	the interleave version is 10 times faster
12:37	Scriptor	you're not flattening it, though
12:38	Scriptor	are nested hashes supposed to stay as hashes?
12:38	tscheibl	I just want to flatten with depth 1
12:38	tscheibl	,(flatten (seq {:a 1 :b {:x 42}}))
12:38	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b {:x 42})
12:38	tscheibl	see it's the same
12:39	tscheibl	I must use something like that when I wrap functions with keyword arguments... because apply does not support hashmaps
12:41	TimMc	tscheibl: Just write mapply
12:41	TimMc	You really don't want flatten for this, it will screw you over.
12:42	tscheibl	mapply?
12:42	TimMc	&(flatten (seq {:a [1 2], :b 3}))
12:42	lazybot	⇒ (:a 1 2 :b 3)
12:42	TimMc	tscheibl: Yeah, apply that takes a map as a last param.
12:42	Scriptor	tscheibl: map apply
12:42	tscheibl	TimMc: yep.. but that's not part of clojure core ..?
12:43	Scriptor	tscheibl: right, just write it yourself
12:43	tscheibl	:)
12:43	tscheibl	,(let [m {:a 1 :b {:x 42}}] (interleave (keys m) (vals m)))
12:43	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b {:x 42})
12:43	tscheibl	like that
12:43	tscheibl	..or is there something better?
12:43	TimMc	clojurebot: mapply is (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args))))
12:43	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
12:44	TimMc	then (mapply f a b c some-map) works like apply and some vector or list
12:47	tscheibl	TimMc: righty... concat does the trick :)
12:58	technomancy	ibdknox\|away: so with your video
12:58	technomancy	once you get the turtle in there
12:58	mdeboard	Jesus am I an idiot or is korma like a grillion times easier to use than SQLAlchemy
12:58	technomancy	you need to be able to define the bounciness of the turtle as a function of gravity and the target height
12:58	technomancy	I was disappointed that he didn't do that in the video
13:09	ibdknox	technomancy: lol
13:10	ibdknox	ok, I'm officially annoyed by HNs voting ring bullshit
13:10	ibdknox	technomancy: I'll try harder next time ;)
13:11	ibdknox	mdeboard: it's a lot easier ;)
13:11	technomancy	ibdknox: no, I mean that's what annoyed me about the original
13:11	ibdknox	oh
13:12	ibdknox	ah I see, I misread that
13:14	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah it's kinda annoying that's kicked in for such a cool post
13:15	dnolen	back to the usual boring HN crap
13:19	ibdknox	dnolen: yeah :(
13:19	ibdknox	oh well, a fair number of people saw it I think
13:19	ibdknox	:)
13:19	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah 80 points in 2 hours is pretty good
13:28	oakwise	ring voting?
13:28	gfredericks	if I run jruby and it calls a clojure lib, is it expected that the clojure code would use a different classloader than the jruby?
13:29	TimMc	oakwise: Presumably some sort of protection against groups of people always voting for each other's links in order to game the system.
13:30	hiredman	gfredericks: it can
13:30	oakwise	ah, the clojure cabal eh?
13:31	TimMc	Yeah, I imagine it is easy for it to misfire on things that are interesting to well-defined subsets of the userbase.
13:31	gfredericks	hiredman: k, thanks
13:41	gtrak``	what does the voting ring do to the post?
13:42	ibdknox	it destroys the rank of the post
13:42	ibdknox	basically subtracts n-ranking points from the post
13:42	ibdknox	usually it's almost immediate removal from the front page
13:43	ibdknox	It stayed on there for a little bit
13:43	ibdknox	but now it's off
13:43	TimMc	How can you tell it is activated?
13:43	ibdknox	you don't go from #2 to #28 in 5 mins
13:43	TimMc	got it
13:43	gtrak``	oh, lame, maybe I shouldn't vote for your stuff next time :-)
13:43	ibdknox	I'm not sure how to fix it really
13:43	ibdknox	I post stuff about Clojure mostly, and Clojure people are going to vote on it
13:43	ibdknox	the mechanism is busted
13:44	ibdknox	basically I'll just have to get one of you guys to post it for me next time :)
13:44	gtrak``	we could have a reverse voting ring, don't vote for it until enough others have seen it?
13:45	hagna	so I'd like to call a protected method in clojure 1.3; maybe wall-hack-method would help, but where is it?
13:45	ibdknox	well
13:45	ibdknox	that should've been the case here
13:45	ibdknox	it had 80 before it got bumped
13:46	ibdknox	not sure what more was necessary to prove it wasn't artificially put up there
13:46	ibdknox	I might email PG and ask
13:46	mdeboard	ibdknox: Just finished up a module to reconcile our database (using Korma) and our Solr index, since we've got a problem with docs not being deleted reliably
13:47	mdeboard	overshare
13:47	ibdknox	sweet
13:51	y3di	ibdknox: you converted someone to clojure!
13:54	ibdknox	y3di: haha, Noir has actually gotten a fair number of people :)
13:58	ibdknox	does reddit just have really terrible eventual consistency?
13:59	arkh	that's how you get scalability and reliability, right? ; )
13:59	gtrak``	lol, why 17 down votes?
13:59	gtrak``	haters?
14:00	TimMc	gtrak``: Could also be ghost votes.
14:00	TimMc	Ghost-banned users get their votes cancelled out by incrementing both values. :-P
14:00	gtrak``	ah
14:01	ibdknox	that's annoying
14:02	TimMc	And then there are people who downvote instead of clicking "hide" because they are idiots (and also have the "hide things I've seen" feature enabled)
14:02	m0smith`	hello?
14:02	clojurebot	BUENOS DING DONG DIDDLY DIOS, fRaUline m0smith`
14:02	gtrak``	i was wondering what was so offensive about it :-)
14:02	ibdknox	gtrak``: me too
14:03	arkh	I'd like to count the number of items in a list - what's a clojure-y way to do that? ["one" "two" "two" "three" "three" "three"] as {"one" 1, "two" 2, "three" 3}
14:03	m0smith`	ibdknox: I am giving noir a try and I have a question
14:03	ibdknox	arkh: ##(doc frequencies)
14:03	lazybot	⇒ "([coll]); Returns a map from distinct items in coll to the number of times they appear."
14:03	arkh	ibdknox: thank you
14:03	ibdknox	m0smith`: sup?
14:03	TimMc	ibdknox: Really popular posts usually settle down to about 80%, middling ones to about 66%.
14:04	ibdknox	TimMc: I see. At least it doesn't have the damn voting ring nonsense ;)
14:04	m0smith`	ibdknox: I have several checkboxkes with the same name and I was expecting a vector of the checked values, instead I only get one. Is that expected?
14:04	TimMc	ibdknox: Oh, I'm sure there's some of that too. Reddit is very private about their anti-cheating algorithms, of course.
14:04	ibdknox	m0smith`: name="blah[]"
14:05	ibdknox	TimMc: hah, I guess that would make sense :)
14:05	m0smith`	<input name="blah[]" value="one"> <input name="blah[]" value="two">?
14:06	ibdknox	I think so
14:06	m0smith`	hmm
14:06	ibdknox	actually.. I may not add the nested-params middleware
14:06	ibdknox	let me check
14:07	ibdknox	m0smith`: yeah it's there
14:08	ibdknox	m0smith`: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/nested_params.clj#L48
14:09	m0smith`	ibdknox: that explains it. I am still trying to get familiar with the stack
14:09	ibdknox	m0smith`: no worries
14:09	ibdknox	m0smith`: btw there's a #Noir
14:09	ibdknox	err #noir
14:09	ibdknox	not sure if IRC is case-sensitive
14:10	m0smith`	ibdknox: thanks I will keep that in mind
14:10	TimMc	ibdknox: Same thing.
14:10	ibdknox	k
14:10	TimMc	I wonder what locale it uses for casefolding. :-P
14:11	TimMc	/join #noır
14:11	TimMc	(Turkish dotless i)
14:11	ibdknox	haha
14:12	mdeboard	y3di: Nah he didn't convert me, but Korma definitely makes it easy to sneak some Clojure into our source repos :)
14:13	y3di	i was referring to jisaacstone on hn
14:13	mdeboard	oic
14:17	ibdknox	I was kinda hoping bret vector might comment
14:17	y3di	maybe he will
14:17	zmaril	What's datomic mean?
14:17	y3di	DAT OMIC
14:17	y3di	idk sorry
14:19	mdeboard	zmaril: Context?
14:19	ibdknox	did you mean Diatomic?
14:20	amalloy	no, rhickey is increasing the mystery by tweeting a single non-word without explanation
14:20	ibdknox	if you did that's a molecule made of two atoms :p
14:20	zmaril	Yep, twitter
14:20	TimMc	cat on keyboard
14:20	mdeboard	d'atomique
14:21	mdeboard	fragrance for geeks, by rich hickey
14:21	ibdknox	lol
14:21	TimMc	>_<
14:21	Bronsa	lol
14:21	zmaril	What if he really meant to say diatomic and is stuck with datomic now
14:21	zmaril	I guess that is the hazard of single word tweets.
14:22	mdeboard	Similar thing happen when he misspelled complex as "complect"
14:22	mdeboard	j/k j/k
14:22	TimMc	lulz
14:22	ibdknox	datomic isn't a very good name if that's what it is :/
14:22	ibdknox	lol
14:22	zmaril	It's pronounced with a silent d
14:32	benares_98	data atomic?
14:32	ibdknox	still a bad name :p
14:33	mdeboard	Extremely atomic and incredibly atomic?
14:33	mdeboard	I got nothing, also, how did this conversation get started?
14:33	mdeboard	where did he see datomic
14:34	joly	there's apparently a "Coming soon" page at http://datomic.com
14:34	mdeboard	oh nm
14:34	ibdknox	most likely some sort of distributed proessing thing
14:34	dnolen	stuartsierra: so is there anything that triggers cutting CLJS releases? :)
14:34	stuartsierra	dnolen: ME triggers a CLJS release
14:34	dnolen	stuartsierra: hah
14:34	mdeboard	http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/datomic.com I'm a creeper
14:35	ibdknox	mdeboard: already been there ;)
14:35	TimMc	Are we playing Alternate Reality Games now?
14:36	ibdknox	well that rules out some product teaching clojure stuff :)
14:37	redinger	ibdknox: That's all you!
14:37	redinger	:)
14:37	ibdknox	haha
14:37	ibdknox	redinger: need more time :)
14:38	ibdknox	I'm excited to see what it is. My money's on some form of distributed processing thing.. a more general purpose wolframalpha like service or something
14:40	TimMc	Or integration with external transactions?
14:41	TimMc	or some sort of functional database system (like Accumulo)
14:41	ibdknox	I was thinking it likely related to avout somehow
14:42	pipeline	just by the by
14:42	pipeline	the newest mathematica has some WA integration
14:42	ibdknox	the new wolframalpha stuff is really cool
14:43	ibdknox	uploading a sound file and getting an analysis of it and all
14:43	mdeboard	neat
14:45	ibdknox	dnolen: what's this deps.cljs thing?
14:45	dnolen	ibdknox: I don't know anything about that. To be honest I'm less familiar with the tooling aspects of the CLJS compiler
14:47	y3di	wow yur post is not longer on the front page ibdknox
14:47	ibdknox	y3di: voting ringed about an hour ago :(
14:47	ibdknox	it would've been up there for a while based on its velocity
14:48	y3di	what does it mean that voting ringed
14:48	mdeboard	^
14:49	ibdknox	HN has some anti-cheating detection that determines if someone is trying to game the system. Unfortunately its pretty simplistic and will often mark things incorrectly. I write about clojure and so clojure people vote on it consistently
14:50	ibdknox	causing it to get flagged because the same people are voting on it
14:50	mdeboard	ibdknox: You need to get some node.js and mongodb articles in
14:50	ibdknox	lol
14:50	mdeboard	everybody'll upvote that shit
14:50	ibdknox	especially since node is my favorite thing in the world ;)
14:51	ibdknox	though I guess I do keep competing in the nodeknockout...
14:51	antares_	ibdknox: hi. Is this a good place for korma and noir questions?
14:51	ibdknox	#noir is probably better
14:52	amalloy	ibdknox: i did my part, by not getting to the article in time to vote for it
14:52	ibdknox	haha
14:53	dnolen	ibdknox: sadly you've been superseded by more important news - Tower.js, Rails in JS
14:53	ibdknox	dnolen: that pained me
14:53	emezeske	I flagged it with all 7 of my accounts, to confuse the anti-cheat detection
14:53	ibdknox	of all the things
14:53	ibdknox	haha coffee makes that code look so ugly too
14:54	ibdknox	emezeske: lol
14:54	emezeske	^_^
15:03	jcrossley3	wow, the bar for "database-agnostic" seems so much lower now: http://towerjs.org
15:04	mdeboard	How do you lower the bar on binary fact? it's either agnostic or not
15:05	TimMc	nah
15:05	TimMc	Stuff always leaks through the "abstraction barrier".
15:05	mdeboard	I reckon
15:05	TimMc	"Oops, MySQL doesn't support milli-precision timestamps."
15:06	mdeboard	or full UTF-8 support
15:06	TimMc	"Huh, why does this same query run really fast on MySQL but really slow on SQLite?"
15:06	TimMc	etc.
15:07	ibdknox	there is no such thing as database-agnostic
15:07	ibdknox	lol
15:07	hiredman	database oblivious
15:07	mdeboard	lol
15:09	ibdknox	well that sucks. live-cljs counts as a JS project
15:10	jcrossley3	hiredman: :)
15:10	ibdknox	I wish there was a way to explicitly set that in github
15:11	clj_newb	Hi, to generate and parse small xml (less that 1000 chars) will clojure.xml do?
15:12	clj_newb	to generate using emit eg
15:13	TimMc	ibdknox: You could be sneaky and move all the JS to ./vendor
15:14	TimMc	ibdknox: They really should be scaling their counts, though.
15:14	ibdknox	I guess it's somewhat of a hard thing to be deterministic about
15:18	`fogus	ibdknox: Marginalia is a JS project too. :-)
15:18	ibdknox	`fogus: haha, is it really mostly JS?
15:18	TimMc	`fogus: That's ridiculous. Syntax-highlighter?
15:19	amalloy	haha, scaling their counts? you mean like, "well ten lines of lisp probably took more thinking than a thousand lines of JS"?
15:19	ibdknox	amalloy: hahaha
15:19	ibdknox	that would be awesome
15:19	ibdknox	by that metric, I've written a lot of software :D
15:19	TimMc	amalloy: s/took more thinking than/expresses as much as/, yes
15:20	`fogus	TimMc: Yep
15:20	ibdknox	ah it's got jquery and all in it too
15:20	TimMc	`fogus: In that case you really do have a reason to move the highlighter JS to ./vendor, where it won't be counted.
15:20	`fogus	I will do that one day yes
15:20	`fogus	Ptaches welcomed. :p
15:20	`fogus	Patches even .
15:21	ibdknox	`fogus: I know you were a big fan of Bret Victor video, did you play with the live-cljs thing yet? :)
15:21	Raynes	If I want to avoid the whole "ur project is js lololol cuz jquery" stuff, I write a script to pull down my js deps.
15:21	Raynes	Also, what the hell. Why is it acceptable to download and put js libraries in repos?
15:22	Raynes	Every other decent language has some sort of dependency management solution.
15:22	`fogus	ibdknox: I have not looked at it deeply yet. I watched the video however and am till stunned. Fantastic work man!
15:23	ibdknox	:)
15:24	`fogus	Raynes: It's retro dontchaknow?
15:24	Raynes	:p
15:24	`fogus	My source control is a rotating pile of floppies... not that you have any idea what those are ;-)
15:25	ibdknox	`fogus: I actually use tape
15:26	Raynes	`fogus: I actually do. :>
15:26	Raynes	I had a computer with one of those drives.
15:26	ibdknox	the actually floppy ones?
15:26	Raynes	Yes.
15:27	ibdknox	we used to have a commador 64
15:27	ibdknox	played the original ultima on that thing haha
15:27	Bronsa	my pc still has a working floppy reader
15:30	ibdknox	hm, I need to come up with some good summer of code projects
15:39	dnolen	ibdknox: please do!
15:40	mdeboard	ibdknox: 1). delicious clone, in clojure
15:40	ibdknox	:p
15:40	mdeboard	2). pyclojure
15:40	Raynes	I don't understand book mark sync sites.
15:40	ibdknox	it seems like something related to what I just did would be really fun for someone
15:40	Raynes	I don't even bookmark things these days -- I send them to evernote.
15:40	mdeboard	3). clojurepy
15:40	Raynes	That's basically all I use evernote for.
15:41	Raynes	I'd support clojurepy.
15:41	Raynes	As a matter of fact, I'd down right endorse it and contribute.
15:41	ibdknox	clojurepy? Clojure that compiles to Python?
15:41	mdeboard	ibdknox: Also yes a multiplayer game where you manipulate code to "move your guy" (or whatever mechanic) would be amazing
15:41	mdeboard	ibdknox: Sure
15:41	ibdknox	cool
15:41	mdeboard	(sarcasm)
15:41	ibdknox	eh, lots of people are interested in other targets now
15:41	clj_newb	Hi, (str "blah\ "\"/>") outputs \"/> unsupported character, is the \" not a valid scape character
15:42	amalloy	you have a space after the first \
15:42	clj_newb	sorry I meant
15:43	clj_newb	Hi, (str "blah" string_var "\"/>") outputs \"/> unsupported character, is the \" not a valid scape character
15:43	Raynes	I want Clojure on Parrot.
15:43	amalloy	no it doesn't. that code cannot produce that error message
15:44	clj_newb	ok, I will review my string_var then
15:44	amalloy	&(let [string_var "test"] (str "blah" string_var "\"/>"))
15:44	lazybot	⇒ "blahtest\"/>"
15:44	clj_newb	thank you amalloy, the problem must be somewhere else
15:48	phillc	hey guys. i have a service which fires off around 3 tasks serially. ie download an image from a url, crop it, identify EXIF data. i can do each and every task easily with java
15:48	phillc	i have this service implemented in nodejs and having nice experience with it
15:49	phillc	for academic purposes i'd like to do the same thing in clojure.. so if in nodejs i do these things async, what would be the answer in clojure?
15:50	clj_newb	&(let [string_var "var"] (str "a\"" string_var "\"/>"))
15:50	lazybot	⇒ "a\"var\"/>"
16:08	TimMc	phillc: Is async important? Just spawn more threads.
16:09	TimMc	If you're worried about heavy, slow traffic -- Clojure has closures too. :-)
16:09	phillc	well its important in a sense, i'd just like to learn what would be the common idiom with clojure
16:12	stuartsierra	phillc: futures
16:20	technomancy	nathanmarz: how's lein-scalac working out for you?
16:24	cemerick	ibdknox\|away: well done with noir; you have won the HN quorum handily :-)
16:25	Raynes	cemerick: I've totally got commits in there too. My ego is hungry -- feed it.
16:27	cemerick	noir would be nowhere without you, Raynes
16:27	Raynes	It's true.
16:29	ibdknox	cemerick: hm? :)
16:29	phillc	technomancy, is lein-scalac good replacement for sbt?
16:30	technomancy	phillc: depends on your needs =)
16:30	cemerick	ibdknox: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3640241
16:30	phillc	technomancy, i need my sanity back.
16:30	technomancy	it doesn't do any incremental compilation, so I understand that would rule it out for some use cases since the scalac compiler is very slow
16:30	ibdknox	cemerick: haha I see
16:30	phillc	screw incremental compilation.. i need something maintainble, simple.
16:30	cemerick	it was 5/5 for noir, so I had to add a fair-and-balanced comment. :-P
16:30	technomancy	phillc: give it a try then =)
16:31	phillc	technomancy, definitly will!
16:31	technomancy	I should note that I haven't actually used it for anything but the 5-line example file checked into the tests
16:32	ibdknox	cemerick: all paid advertising. ;)
16:34	simard	what was the website with clojure problems to solve ?
16:34	phillc	cemerick, loving the TOC on your new book. makes tons of sense for experienced developers
16:35	cemerick	phillc: glad it looks good to you. Yup, was aiming for the intersection of experienced devs + clojure noobs.
16:36	cemerick	i.e. no bullshit, but accessible.
16:36	aperiodic	simard: 4clojure
16:37	phillc	looks like it, even code build and organization is given attention, which is one of the things i look at first in new languages (often doesn't get that attention)
16:37	phillc	rough cuts is complete? should i take that or wait for april?
16:38	ibdknox	cemerick: added my own thoughts there :)
16:38	accel	what is mini-kanren, and why is it awesome enough for core.logic to implement it (from the sounds of it, mini-kanren sounds like a toy, not a full fledged standard)
16:38	Raynes	amalloy: You need to register thewebsitewiththeclojureproblems.com and point it at 4clojure.
16:39	accel	I have a recommendation for 4clojure. The input is a DNA strand. The output is the protein it induces + folds into.
16:41	ibdknox	hah
16:41	ibdknox	apparently my implementation is more general than Bret's was
16:41	clj_newb	Hi, there is something I cannot work out what is wrong with this code http://pastebin.com/aQs2GnAf it works in repl but not when compiling nor running with lein
16:42	cemerick	phillc: Yeah, if you buy now, you'll be reading our final draft. Only differences between it and the published version will be super-minor edits and nicer illustrations.
16:42	clj_newb	any idea?
16:42	phillc	cemerick, great, thanks
16:43	TimMc	accel: Done, and I golfed it down to 10954823598 characters!
16:44	ibdknox	lol
16:47	raek	clj_newb: you are missing a double quote
16:47	raek	it shouldn't work in the repl
16:48	raek	,(let [cookie "abc"] (str "<logout cookie=\" cookie "\"/>"))
16:48	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported character: \"/>>
16:48	raek	,(let [cookie "abc"] (str "<logout cookie=\"" cookie "\"/>"))
16:48	clojurebot	"<logout cookie=\"abc\"/>"
16:49	raek	clj_newb: replace cookie=\" with cookie=\""
16:49	raek	clj_newb: an editor with syntax highlighting will help you catch errors like these
16:54	gtrak``	datomic, pods possibly?
16:55	ibdknox	gtrak``: it's a product
16:55	mdeboard	Does clojure.xml/emit-element require the value of :content keyword to only be another struct? or am I doing it wrong or what?
16:55	gtrak``	ah
16:55	TimMc	datomic: A data structure for multi-thread concurrency in JS.
16:55	ibdknox	lol
16:55	TimMc	</troll>
16:55	mdeboard	&(struct element :field {:name "city"} "Indianapolis")
16:55	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: element in this context
16:56	mdeboard	&(struct clojure.xml/element :field {:name "city"} "Indianapolis")
16:56	lazybot	⇒ {:tag :field, :attrs {:name "city"}, :content "Indianapolis"}
16:56	cemerick	TimMc: should have left off the end-tag to see what chaos ensued.
16:56	mdeboard	&(clojure.xml/emit-element (struct clojure.xml/element :field {:name "city"} "Indianapolis"))
16:56	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
16:56	mdeboard	Why
16:56	mdeboard	Does that happen
16:56	ibdknox	cemerick: TimMc: I had my pitchfork ready.
16:57	mdeboard	Not clear where in https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/xml.clj#L95 that error would be generated
16:57	Raynes	$max
16:57	lazybot	The most users ever in #clojure is 376
16:57	Raynes	He lies.
16:58	cemerick	That's wrong.
16:58	cemerick	Raynes: bash that up to 401, unless you know it's been higher.
16:58	Raynes	amalloy: ^ You know, that plugin has been broken for at least 8 months.
16:58	cemerick	oh, 404 now :-P
16:58	TimMc	~max
16:58	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:58	mdeboard	&(doc doseq)
16:58	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
16:59	TimMc	clojurebot: max is <reply>Most users ever in #clojure: 404
16:59	clojurebot	Alles klar
16:59	TimMc	~max
16:59	mdeboard	&(clojure.xml/emit-element (struct clojure.xml/element :field {:name "city"} '("Indianapolis")))
16:59	clojurebot	Most users ever in #clojure: 404
16:59	lazybot	⇒ <field name='city'> Indianapolis </field> nil
16:59	mdeboard	ff
16:59	TimMc	There, now it is correct and yet nicely ambiguous.
16:59	mdeboard	16:57 <mdeboard> &(clojure.xml/emit-element (struct clojure.xml/element :field {:name "city"} '(20)))
16:59	mdeboard	&(clojure.xml/emit-element (struct clojure.xml/element :field {:name "city"} '(20)))
16:59	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
16:59	mdeboard	:-\
17:00	TimMc	mdeboard: Funky.
17:00	Raynes	cemerick: It's supposed to keep track of the number of users to measure the highest. Unfortunately, it's teh broke.
17:00	cemerick	indeed.
17:00	amalloy	isn't struct supposed to be making a map? you gave it one key/value pair, and then a value floating off by itself
17:00	wiseen	is there a equivalent macro in core.match to this : https://gist.github.com/1927369
17:00	mdeboard	&(emit-element 20)
17:00	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: emit-element in this context
17:01	mdeboard	amalloy: This is of course just a small snippet of a large struct map mapping my Solr schema
17:01	amalloy	but it's not a map
17:01	mdeboard	Dunno, I'm trying to fllow the example here http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.xml/element if I'm doing it wrong I'm all ears :P
17:02	mdeboard	Trying to figure out how it works, is all.
17:04	amalloy	well structs are...dreadful and old. so a lot of people (eg, me) don't really know how to use them
17:05	ibdknox	I didn't even know clojure had structs..
17:06	amalloy	they're like records, but from the jurassic
17:07	clj_newb	is there any other option to make mdeboard example with no struct? wondering
17:07	amalloy	well, don't use clojure.xml
17:08	amalloy	use org.clojure/data.xml instead, which thank god has an official release now
17:09	clj_newb	didn't know about it, thank you!
17:19	bguthrie	Hi all. I'm trying to use Clojure to execute a shell process, and as part of that I'd like to hook up the input stream of the process to something so I can read from it asynchronously periodically. Any tips?
17:20	bguthrie	I can't use the default Clojure shell fn because it's synchronous, which is nice but doesn't help me much.
17:21	emezeske	bguthrie: Most likely, you'll want to look at the "sh" source, and use that as a basis
17:21	emezeske	bguthrie: With a little java-interop to get the out and err streams where you want them
17:22	ibdknox	bguthrie: https://github.com/raynes/conch
17:22	emezeske	Or, somebody could suggest a way better solution
17:23	ibdknox	:)
17:23	bguthrie	Haha
17:43	clj_newb	the leiningen dependency in the web does not work for me, which is it?
17:44	clj_newb	done
17:50	technomancy	clj_newb: parse error
17:59	cemerick	amalloy: that gzip middleware should optionally memoize gzipped static resources…
18:01	ibdknox	which gzip middleware?
18:01	amalloy	yuck. make another middleware for that if you desperately need to avoid disk accesses. but really just using Not Modified responses liberally should solve most of the problem
18:01	Raynes	ibdknox: You are like my PR guy or something.
18:01	ibdknox	Raynes: I try.
18:01	Raynes	It's like you just sit there and recommend my projects.
18:04	cemerick	ibdknox: https://github.com/amalloy/ring-gzip-middleware
18:04	aperiodic	oh god, the nickcolors are slightly different now
18:04	aperiodic	i'm not gonna recognize anyone
18:06	cemerick	amalloy: sure, ok. If you're loading static resources from the classpath though, looking for a resource isn't just a stat.
18:11	emezeske	aperiodic: yeah, that's the worst!
18:15	mdeboard	amalloy: Thanks re: data.xml
18:15	amalloy	that's true enough. but if you skip the step of looking around and just serve up a memoized tarball, you can't really handle it if the resources change out from under you
18:17	mdeboard	amalloy: What's the official release # though? I see a 'data.xml-0.0.3' tag in the github repo
18:17	amalloy	yep
18:21	gtrak``	doesn't the mmap'd file and disk cache take care of it for you?
18:22	cemerick	amalloy: when would static resources on the classpath change in production?
18:22	amalloy	shrug serving up a log file as a web resource? just an example off the top of my head
18:23	hiredman	static
18:23	cemerick	gtrak``: I'm over-optimizing. :-P
18:23	cemerick	right, you'd want to be careful about applying the memoizing middleware around the right part of your routes.
18:23	gtrak``	does mmap-ing not work within a jar?
18:24	cemerick	who knows
18:24	cemerick	or, I should say, outside of an implementation detail, no.
18:25	stuartsierra	mdeboard: http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Cclojure%20data.xml
18:25	mdeboard	stuartsierra: Thanks sir
18:25	gtrak``	cemerick: let's write an OS in clojure then :-)
18:29	mdeboard	christ i think i own every book on clojure and still suck
18:29	mdeboard	Clearly all the books are bad
18:30	gtrak``	I've been feeling like I need a good lisp book to not suck as much, maybe "On Lisp"
18:31	amalloy	that book. there are some sentences i wish i could just cuddle up with next to the fire
18:32	mdeboard	Joy of Clojure and Practical CLojure are both good, I'm just dumb
18:32	gtrak``	what's missing for you to be good?
18:33	mdeboard	experience & hours
18:33	gtrak``	err, i mean in terms of clojure?
18:33	mdeboard	only 9,990 left
18:33	mdeboard	time
18:33	gtrak``	I find I reimplement a lot of things that exist
18:34	mdeboard	I like how almost the entire comment section of the HN post for cemerick's book is about which clojure web library is best
18:35	mdeboard	ok, almost half.
18:37	brehaut	half of all programming is probably web programming, so not a huge surprise ;)
18:39	gtrak``	brehaut: I got my site on hiccup, it's nice, but stringtemplate is soooo much faster
18:40	gtrak``	not to-the-eye noticeable, but benchmark-wise :-). If I memoize static pages it's better than before.
18:40	brehaut	gtrak``: interesting. i'm curious how enlive compares
18:40	brehaut	gtrak``: i run my site in an embeded jetty behind an nginx with huge proxy caching ;)
18:41	brehaut	it doesnt really matter how slow the rendering is either, but i'd be curious about comparisons.
18:41	gtrak``	yea, I'm just messing around, nothing so serious, but I was thinking of writing a macro do make them at compile-time if they're truly static
18:41	brehaut	gtrak``: you might find tinsel possibly interesting?
18:41	dsantiago	brehaut: I was just gonna say… :)
18:42	brehaut	https://github.com/davidsantiago/tinsel
18:42	gtrak``	oh :-) perfect
18:42	brehaut	indeed :)
18:43	gtrak``	the other thing is, clojure's reader sucks for pasted snippets, I might have to drop back to stringtemplate for that
18:43	gtrak``	not fully, but just to have a snippets map
18:43	brehaut	i dont understand what you mean sorry
18:44	gtrak``	like, this is a pain to write in a .clj, I have to escape all the quotes: https://gist.github.com/1927948
18:44	gtrak``	and getting hiccup to generate it also looked painful
18:44	brehaut	dsantiago: i didnt notice that you had benchmarks in the tinsel docs, thats great
18:45	dsantiago	brehaut: Yeah, the linked benchmarks actually include Enlive as well, but I haven't updated those benchmarks in a long time.
18:46	brehaut	dsantiago: how did enlive compare?
18:46	dsantiago	brehaut: Last time I ran it, not that well.
18:46	gtrak``	dsantiago: tinsel looks much more well-conceived than what I was contemplating
18:47	dsantiago	gtrak``: Thanks. It's been pretty solid for me, but I don't know of anyone else using it.
18:47	brehaut	dsantiago: interesting, thanks
18:49	gtrak``	I did some profiling with hiccup, and a lot of the time was spent in MultiFn, do you know what that's about?
18:49	gtrak``	it claims to do some compilation, so maybe it wasn't hiccup causing the slowdown but something else
18:50	dsantiago	It does do compilation, but it can't always apply those optimizations.
18:50	dsantiago	If it can't figure out statically what something is going to be, it has to insert code to run it and convert it to a string at runtime.
18:50	gtrak``	i did have one doseq in there, was it string concatenation maybe?
18:52	dsantiago	brehaut: So I just re-ran it, and keeping in mind this is on clojure 1.1 still and I didn't update the Enlive version from 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT, what tinsel does in about 2 msecs, Enlive does in about 50.
18:53	brehaut	dsantiago: huh. ouch
18:53	dsantiago	Or more, actually. There's several tests.
18:54	brehaut	dsantiago: how old is tinsel‽ 1.1 was quite a while ago
18:55	dsantiago	brehaut: It's about a year old.
18:56	dsantiago	I haven't updated it only because, well, it works for me, I'm not sure what else to add, and I haven't had any bugs in my own work or reported to me.
18:56	dsantiago	Haven't moved my stuff to 1.3 yet though.
18:58	dsantiago	Clojure 1.3 seems to work just by changing the dep in project.clj.
18:58	dsantiago	Assuming you don't try to rebind the option vars.
18:59	dsantiago	Better fix that.
19:00	tmciver	dsantiago: tinsel looks interesting. It looks similar to enlive, yes?
19:00	dsantiago	tmciver: Yep. It's like Enlive but works on HTML or Hiccup input, and it doesn't have the vector-based CSS-like syntax.
19:00	dsantiago	Lets you write your own ways of selecting and modifying the nodes of the HTML tree instead.
19:01	tmciver	I've been looking at enlive recently to do some html->xml transformations; is that something tinsel could do as well?
19:02	dsantiago	tmciver: I'm not sure what you mean by an html->xml transformation.
19:02	tmciver	dsantiago: like XSLT
19:03	dsantiago	tmciver: You want to read in HTML and then print out equivalent XML? Or you want to do transformations on it?
19:03	tmciver	read in some html, pull out specific content, use that to create some xml
19:03	tmciver	dsantiago: transformations.
19:04	mdeboard	I can confirm that clojure.data.xml emits xml
19:05	tmciver	hiccup could also be used directly to produce arbitrary xml.
19:05	dsantiago	tmciver: I'm not sure if tinsel is a good fit for that. Tinsel does everything it can at compile time, it's optimized for fast rendering. If these input files are going to be different every time, you wont' get any advantage.
19:05	dsantiago	Probably a disadvantage, in fact.
19:05	tmciver	dsantiago: Yeah, that's why I was asking. A quick look at the readme seemed to indicate that.
19:05	tmciver	dsantiago: still, tinsel looks very cool.
19:06	dsantiago	tmciver: Thanks!
19:06	mdeboard	Oh, didn't realize people were talking about XML
19:14	cemerick	There's been so much clojure on HN today, the trough of disillusionment must be near.
19:14	Scriptor	trough of disillusionment?
19:15	ibdknox	cemerick: in general there's been a lot lately
19:15	cemerick	Scriptor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
19:15	cemerick	ibdknox: yeah, and watching #clojure on twitter has been interesting
19:16	Scriptor	nah, I think it's just a minor fluctuation
19:16	cemerick	"all the cool kidz are using clojure, I need to get on that", etc.
19:16	Scriptor	node's trough is coming soon
19:16	technomancy	if it hasn't already hit
19:17	cemerick	technomancy: stop with the wishful thinking
19:17	Scriptor	as a nyc resident, I can assure you it has not
19:18	ibdknox	people are realizing slowly that they're creating maintenance disasters
19:19	cemerick	if you assume node is the new php, then it's got a lot of headroom
19:19	technomancy	what we need to do is figure a way to channel the large upcoming node-rescue-project consulting market into clojurescript.
19:19	ibdknox	ooo
19:19	ibdknox	consulting money sounds good
19:19	ibdknox	;)
19:19	technomancy	ibdknox: all I ask is a 5% commission for coming up with the idea
19:19	ibdknox	cemerick: I think it's a little different of a situation
19:20	hiredman	uh, eitherway you are still using js
19:20	Scriptor	it's closer to what rails was like
19:20	hiredman	I think you'd do better replacing node with anything on the jvm
19:20	Scriptor	someone should make rhinode
19:20	technomancy	hiredman: maybe a gradual transition with rhino or something
19:20	y3di	wow ibdknox: that ringing shit is mad whack.. your submission could have gotten so much visibility
19:20	hiredman	I bet even groovy would out perform it
19:21	ibdknox	y3di: yeah, based on its reception on Reddit, probably would've been in the 20k range
19:23	ibdknox	I'm mostly sad that it didn't seem to generate any interesting discussion
19:23	ibdknox	though I was surprised to find out that my implementation is probably more robust than his demo's. I had assumed he built something similar
19:24	ibdknox	I kinda hoped he would've said something too, but oh well :)
19:25	cemerick	ibdknox: I'm crudely assuming similar skill levels of new entrants.
19:26	ibdknox	cemerick: I think the barrier is much higher for node than it ever was for PHP
19:26	cemerick	javascript is the minimum entrance requirement for software development; just imagine all the HTML/js/css jockeys now building server-side
19:26	technomancy	PHP had every shared host in the world supporting it
19:26	ibdknox	installing node, until recently, was not easy
19:27	ibdknox	doing templating is far simpler in php
19:27	ibdknox	running php was stupid easy with things like mamp and xamp
19:27	cemerick	I'll be happy to be totally wrong.
19:27	ibdknox	I just don't think it'll be as bad lol
19:27	Scriptor	it's also much easier to grasp in your head, every time your page is requested the script runs and whatever you echo() is what you see
19:27	Scriptor	none of that callback nonsense
19:28	ibdknox	yeah, PHP is about as simple as it gets for websites
19:28	Scriptor	I don't think the people behind node are beginner programmers, for the most part
19:28	ibdknox	it's also a maintenance disaster, but at least it's easy ;)
19:28	ibdknox	I can't say much
19:28	ibdknox	I built a lot of php programs
19:30	ibdknox	I'd like to think we've learned a lot since then
19:30	Scriptor	heh, I just attended a talk by a tumblr guy
19:30	Scriptor	from what he said, at least they haven't
19:33	callen	Scriptor: I think the people behind Node went PHP => Rails => Node.js and never learned about evented programming until they discovered Node.
19:34	callen	Scriptor: further, I'm not sure any of them, save for Dahl himself, are aware Erlang exists or what CPS is.
19:34	brehaut	ibdknox: given how much HTML templating is still using greenspun string bashers, id say we havent learnt enough since then
19:34	ibdknox	brehaut: haha fair enough
19:34	muhoo	callen: this
19:35	callen	brehaut: sometimes a separation of concerns and lack of power is desirable. Can't teach the designers Clojure.
19:35	ibdknox	I'm not entirely sure that's true
19:35	callen	They just need to know where the data is going to go and build up a framework around that.
19:35	brehaut	this again? geez
19:35	Scriptor	callen: hah, exactly, I wonder how much the lack of an idea of what CPS is is muddling the whole issue with Coffeescript and other efforts trying to find ways to "straighten out" async style code
19:35	callen	you're the one that bashed string-injection templating :)
19:35	ibdknox	it's pretty brute force
19:36	ibdknox	I have a hard time believing that's the best solution to the problem
19:36	callen	the best solution is to have a team of ubermensch who can both code and design
19:36	callen	then your approach is perfectly acceptable
19:36	callen	meanwhile back on planet Earth, we have designers who cannot code and mechanisms for enabling them to work smoothly with the engineers is desirable.
19:36	ibdknox	I don't think I've seen a great approach yet to be honest
19:36	callen	the easiest way to do that, that I'm aware, is Rails/Django style separation of concerns
19:36	muhoo	ibdknox: is there a link to your cljs implementation of that talk?
19:37	callen	not necessarily MVC, but templates that are independent of logic.
19:37	ibdknox	muhoo: hm? like on github? https://github.com/ibdknox/live-cljs
19:37	ibdknox	muhoo: the full text is on http://www.chris-granger.com
19:38	ibdknox	the easiest way that exists today, sure
19:38	ibdknox	rather, that is mainstream and exists today
19:38	ibdknox	moreover, why not have the designers hand you PSDs if it's that big of a deal?
19:39	callen	ibdknox: miserable way to work, some of them are "web designers" and their job is to make CSS that is cross-browser compatible.
19:39	ibdknox	I did it for a couple years, it was a fantastic way to work
19:39	callen	ibdknox: there are varying levels of expertise in said designers, some are only good for PSDs, some can do some basic HTML and CSS, some are CSS wizards, some can even slap jQuery around a bit.
19:39	ibdknox	never had to fix any dumb html :)
19:39	muhoo	ibdknox: yes, thanks
19:39	callen	ibdknox: I'm personally incapable of producing CSS blank-slate from a design.
19:40	callen	ibdknox: if you can tell me how to develop such skills, I'd be grateful.
19:40	brehaut	ibdknox: nah, you only have to fix your own dumb html ;)
19:40	ibdknox	callen: take a picture of a site and recreate it :) It's simply a matter of doing
19:40	ibdknox	but no one said it had to be you.
19:40	ibdknox	I can't program a rocket
19:40	ibdknox	probably never will
19:41	mdeboard	YOu wouldn't download a rocket, would you
19:41	devn	my clojure completion is not working in my source buffer, but it works in my slime buffer, any ideas?
19:41	ibdknox	I think the best setup I had was when I was backend guy, I had a front end guy and we had designers feeding us psds
19:41	ibdknox	we built shit so quickly
19:42	ibdknox	brehaut: me? dumb html? pfft... never :p
19:42	brehaut	lol
19:42	ibdknox	speaking of.. I need to fix my damn horizontal scrollbar
19:42	ibdknox	forgot about that
19:44	devn	anyone have any ideas for discovering what is/isnt triggering when I hit tab or M-tab?
19:45	emezeske	I'm of the opinion that if someone "can't code", they shouldn't be writing HTML or CSS, as those are both coding
19:45	ibdknox	emezeske: I've been of that opinion as well
19:46	harrison	that sounds right
19:46	harrison	i haven't done those two things
19:47	brehaut	and even if they are able to produce HTML, i dont really want them worrying about data models (or having to translate my datamodel into some half arsed intermediate form just for the template to consume)
19:47	harrison	but writing web pages is coding, however demeaning it may be
19:47	harrison	compared to raytracing
19:48	emezeske	To me, it's easy to make a boring task like writing HTML interesting: just always try to be coming up with the most awesome way possible to do it
19:48	ibdknox	I've built all sorts of stuff, worked at many levels of the stack. I don't generally believe that any branch of software is easier/harder than any other
19:48	harrison	you sound like a coder
19:49	harrison	i said "demeaning" not "trivial"
19:49	emezeske	ibdknox: Same here! It's all as hard as you make it (and you should try to make it hard!) ^_^
19:49	emezeske	harrison: Why would it be demeaning?
19:49	harrison	i wasn't serious
19:50	harrison	no offense intended
19:50	emezeske	None taken! I just didn't pick up the /s :P
19:51	harrison	sarcasterisk needed
19:51	harrison	actually, i am not proud that i haven't done web coding
19:51	harrison	not ashamed but not proud
19:51	harrison	it might come in ahndy
19:51	harrison	if this internet thing becomes the next popular sensation
19:52	harrison	andy
19:52	harrison	handy
19:52	ibdknox	lol
19:52	ibdknox	all apps will be webapps ;)
20:00	devn	sorry to bother, but i cannot figure out why emacs wont do completion in the buffer -- could anyone with working emacs completion in their source buffers jump to a source buffer of clojure and C-h k TAB and let me know what it is bound to?
20:00	mdeboard	devn: Did you M-x clojure-jack-in /
20:00	clojurebot	I don't understand.
20:00	devn	mdeboard: yes
20:00	amalloy	it's bound to reindent, surely
20:00	amalloy	use M-/ or C-c TAB, iirc
20:00	amalloy	or autocomplete-mode
20:02	devn	amalloy: just install the autocomplete-mode?
20:02	amalloy	i like it, but it's not for everyone
20:02	devn	amalloy: M-/ is my hippie expand, C-c TAB didn't work
20:03	amalloy	C-c TAB is bound to slime-complete-symbol, for me
20:03	devn	amalloy: is the package all i need, or do I need something else? what about ac-slime? is that what im looking for by any chance?
20:03	lancepantz	devn: hippy expand?
20:03	amalloy	shrug depends what you want
20:04	amalloy	i just use autocomplete and it's fine. ac-slime seems like unnecessary complexity but some people like it
20:04	lancepantz	i use ac-slime
20:04	devn	lancepantz: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/HippieExpand
20:04	lancepantz	i like it
20:04	lancepantz	but i don't know the api as good as you amalloy
20:04	devn	amalloy: you just solved my problem. i just didnt know what the damned function was to complete the symbol at point -- I can bind slime-complete-symbol
20:04	clojurebot	No entiendo
20:05	devn	but i think id be interested to try ac-slime
20:05	mdeboard	lol, love coderwall's clojure achievement logo http://cdn.coderwall.com/assets/badges/narwhal3-3a1b9493a5dc3575952340f0b740c9ea.png
20:05	lancepantz	mdeboard: i know, why a narwhal?
20:05	mdeboard	Why NOT a narwhal
20:05	lancepantz	i hope that doesn't stick
20:06	ibdknox	I'm confused by that site
20:06	ibdknox	I signed up to see what it is
20:06	lancepantz	i think we should get like a dragon or something
20:06	devn	the expansion of the site is sort of a bummer
20:06	mdeboard	I mean, why did they make Python's animal a sna-- oh
20:06	mdeboard	a dragon, lol
20:06	devn	i like the idea of coder achievements, but not a platform for viewing other people's achievements
20:06	mdeboard	A flaming penis with missiles and swords
20:06	brehaut	narwhales are pretty awesome
20:06	mdeboard	^
20:07	brehaut	unicorns of the sea
20:07	lancepantz	actually, the perfect logo for clojure would be a spork
20:07	Scriptor	or werewolf
20:08	lancepantz	maybe a wizard, or does scheme get that?
20:09	Raynes	lancepantz: There should be a 'friends with lancepantz' achievement.
20:10	Raynes	Everybody gets it.
20:10	lancepantz	ofcourse they would! :D
20:10	Scriptor	man, lein still won't work with git-bash
20:10	Scriptor	and cmd's autocomplete is just...astonishingly bad
20:13	Scriptor	ooh, but clojure-jack-in works now
20:23	callen	what's the general pattern or idiom for examining intermediate values in the execution of a function?
20:24	callen	normally in Python I'd be able to leave an ipdb line in there, or set a breakpoint
20:24	callen	I'm bouncing between a buffer and a repl and I'm not sure how to pause execution and see what's going on.
20:26	technomancy	callen: in swank?
20:26	callen	technomancy: da.
20:26	technomancy	callen: just insert (swank.core/break)
20:26	callen	right now I'm leaving println's in the code...
20:26	callen	technomancy: I'll give that a whirl, thanks.
20:27	callen	technomancy: break just seems to throw an exception, how do I examine values?
20:27	technomancy	you can also turn on slime's tracing if you want all args/return values in the repl
20:28	technomancy	callen: while the debugger window is open, the repl should switch to an in-context repl that has access to locals
20:28	callen	technomancy: the REPL is just waiting on me to resolve the exception.
20:28	callen	technomancy: how do I turn on slime's tracing?
20:28	technomancy	are you sure the repl is waiting?
20:28	technomancy	it might just not be prompting you
20:28	callen	wait weird, it's not prompting me
20:28	technomancy	slime tracing is C-c C-t or something like that
20:28	callen	but it seems to be working.
20:29	callen	technomancy: well the REPL seems to be working, I'll have to figure out slime traicng.
20:29	callen	technomancy: thank you.
20:29	callen	tracing*
20:30	weavejester	I've never actually tried the slime debugger
20:30	Scriptor	in sldb, why does expanding an entry in the backtrace always say "no locals"? What's considered a local?
20:31	technomancy	Scriptor: I think you have to have a call to swank.core/break for it to be able to emit locals
20:31	technomancy	Scriptor: in general slime has lots of features designed for CL that don't necessarily make sense in Clojure though
20:32	Scriptor	hmm, makes sense
20:32	technomancy	weavejester: swank.core/break can get you a long way. I've only needed CDT once, (for a bug in Clojure itself) but I was really glad to have it when I did.
20:33	weavejester	technomancy: Do you know if there's any emacs plugins for toggling a (swank.core/break) line?
20:33	Scriptor	can I put (swank.core/break) anywhere inside an expression or does it have to be on its own "line"?
20:33	Scriptor	would (foo (if a b c) (swank.core/break) other-arg) work?
20:34	technomancy	Scriptor: I think it evals to nil
20:34	technomancy	weavejester: pretty sure there is'nt
20:35	Scriptor	hmm, damn, the problem I have with breakpoints in lisp is that code is often nested like that, rather than line-oriented as in imperative languages
20:39	callen	technomancy: https://refheap.com/paste/874 this is what my backtraces in Slime look like
20:39	callen	technomancy: I enabled tracing on my function, no dice.
20:40	technomancy	tracing prints to the repl buffer, not the debugger
20:40	callen	sure, so why are my backtraces borked?
20:41	callen	I need to see the locals :(
20:41	weavejester	Rich Hickey's latest tweet is enigmatic.
20:41	callen	weavejester: do you know what he means by Datomic?
20:41	brehaut	weavejester: i was thinking inscrutable
20:41	ibdknox	hah
20:41	Scriptor	mysterious
20:42	weavejester	callen: Well, he just tweeted "a new kind of database"
20:42	weavejester	So, my guess would be some kind of persistent distributed data store.
20:42	ibdknox	I know someone who is likely a direct competitor if I'm correct about what he's making
20:42	callen	right, wondering if Datomic or something is what he's talking about.
20:42	Scriptor	would it be atomic in reference to clojure's atoms or just atomicity in db's in general?
20:42	weavejester	callen: I figure it must be. Datomic sounds like a database.
20:43	callen	has anyone had a problem in slime with all of their backtrace frames being [No locals]?
20:44	brehaut	is he going to tweet like this till his clojure/west keynote do you think?
20:44	Scriptor	callen: yea, I just asked about it
20:44	Scriptor	apparently you need to use swank.core/break
20:44	weavejester	brehaut: I guess so :)
20:44	weavejester	I figure it'll be something like a persistent Erlang, or at least fill in some of the same areas.
20:44	Scriptor	for a particular frame to show its locals
20:46	callen	yeah but I'm still getting that.
20:46	callen	with swank.core/break
20:46	Scriptor	hmm
20:46	callen	oh bugger all, it just started working.
20:46	Scriptor	haha
20:46	callen	let me repeat what I did.
20:46	BostX	hi all
20:47	callen	I think I know what's happening
20:47	callen	it's trying to evaluate values, and the eval is triggering more exceptions
20:47	BostX	I have a call of static java method:
20:47	Scriptor	so, is there any way in clojure to do something like (foo (first-arg) (no-arg-breakpoint) (second-arg))
20:47	BostX	,(. java.net.URLEncoder encode "bar & baz" "UTF-8")
20:47	clojurebot	"bar+%26+baz"
20:47	BostX	And I'd like to do:
20:47	BostX	,(defn foo [x] (. java.net.URLEncoder x "bar & baz" "UTF-8"))
20:47	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
20:47	BostX	,(foo encode)
20:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
20:48	BostX	but it does not work. does anyone know why?
20:51	amalloy	Scriptor: no
20:51	mdeboard	I have discovered the (very very very nsfw) reason why Clojure's achievement picture on codewall.com is a narwhal. (Seriously, this is NSFW, and probably nsfyou if you have any kind of taste or the slightest shred of maturity) https://www.strongspace.com/postfarm/public/postfarm/uploads-2.0/u/umwli.jpg
20:51	clojurebot	c'est bon!
20:51	mdeboard	Please don't ban me.
20:51	amalloy	well, now clojurebot has that in his database
20:51	Scriptor	clojurebot approves
20:52	Scriptor	amalloy: any chance at all of this happening, or whether it's even possible, or not a dumb idea?
20:52	amalloy	is not possible. you need a different approach
20:53	amalloy	eg, (breakpoint-after-arg 1 (foo (first-arg) (second-arg)))
20:55	Scriptor	maybe
21:06	sgarrett	Hello again #clojure. I'm working on recreating a simple pong program to clojure that I wrote in java. When using java classes like "java.util.Random" is there an idiomatic way to use them without the "new" keyword? Seems like using new a bunch in clojure isn't proper implementation.
21:07	weavejester	sgarrett: Add a "." to the end, e.g. (Integer. "10")
21:07	weavejester	&(Integer. "10")
21:07	lazybot	⇒ 10
21:07	weavejester	&(new Integer "10")
21:07	lazybot	⇒ 10
21:07	brehaut	,(apropos 'rand)
21:08	clojurebot	(rand rand-int rand-nth)
21:11	sgarrett	weavejester: Thanks. :)
21:16	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(Integer. 10)) ;; just to emphasize
21:16	lazybot	⇒ (new Integer 10)
21:26	echo-area	ljos: Did you find the project yesterday
21:26	echo-area	ljos: What's it?
21:27	TimMc	~NSFW
21:27	clojurebot	I don't understand.
21:28	TimMc	mdeboard: I'm really not sure why that has anything to do with anything other than narwhal porn.
21:42	gtrak	brehaut, ibdknox, https://gist.github.com/1928815 did I do a bad thing just now?
21:44	TimMc	gtrak: Kinky.
21:45	TimMc	When I see ((eval b)) I know I'm in for a good time.
21:45	brehaut	lol
21:45	gtrak	I'm still teething on the macros
21:45	brehaut	you've gone further down the hiccup rabbit hole than i have sorry
21:45	gtrak	well, the defpartial originally is from noir
21:47	gtrak	but that's just defining a function with a prerendered hiccup html as its return value, which can then be composed with more defpartials, in theory
21:47	gtrak	if you know it'll be static... I suppose it saves some cpu?
21:47	TimMc	and I/O, maybe?
21:47	gtrak	yea
21:48	gtrak	since you can pass in any sexps
21:48	brehaut	i wonder if its a complicated way of doing a memoize?
21:48	gtrak	it is
21:49	callen	https://refheap.com/paste/875 this more or less exemplifies the brain damage I have re: clojure.
21:49	gtrak	though it moves it to compile-time, those lines are blurry
21:49	callen	the first solution obviously being mine.
21:50	gtrak	brehaut, though string literals referenced by code don't live on heap, right?
21:50	brehaut	gtrak: way deeper java than i can answer
21:51	gtrak	at least in java source code, literals are automatically interned into permgen
21:51	brehaut	oh right. interesting
21:52	gtrak	but yea, memoize was the first thing I did, this is pretty much a restricted compile-time memoize
21:52	brehaut	sure. totally reasonable. enlive does something like that i think
21:53	TimMc	callen: That's how you learn! Initial flush of victory, huge bucket of cold water.
21:53	callen	TimMc: I knew my solution was going to be massive, the problem I guess is that I don't yet think in idioms like partial and mapcat.
21:53	gtrak	is there any way to avoid the eval? I did a lot of trial and error.
21:53	callen	TimMc: I was particularly irritated this time because mapcat briefly occurred to me.
21:55	TimMc	callen: I probably would have done (fn [s r] (for [x s, y (repeat r x)] y))
21:55	TimMc	which of course is a perfect case for mapcat
21:55	brehaut	gtrak: i think if you want a form computed at compile time you probably do want an eval?
21:56	TimMc	callen: ...and now that I check, that's exactly what I did!
21:56	callen	TimMc: what's your account name on 4clj? I need to add you.
21:56	TimMc	callen: TimMc
21:56	Scriptor	hmm, vars created with def don't count as local bindings?
21:57	gtrak	I was trying to do it inline like ~(fn-partial [] ~@body) in place of value, but that was all sorts of broken
21:57	TimMc	My solutions are a mix from rather early on in my Clojure "career" and fairly recent ones.
21:57	callen	TimMc: thx.
21:57	callen	understood.
21:57	callen	I'm a past the earliest of questions, so I think it will be instructive.
21:57	TimMc	Scriptor: vars are disjoint with locals
21:58	Scriptor	got it
21:58	TimMc	locals are like... registers or something.
21:58	TimMc	compiler can do all sorts of fancy footwork with those
21:59	Scriptor	how are vars treated?
22:00	brehaut	they are global to a namespace
22:01	TimMc	vars are globally named mutable cells that the compiler knows about
22:02	TimMc	So when you do (count foo), the compiler knows that count is #'clojure.core/count, a var -- and will go and look at the metadata on the var for optimizations.
22:23	gtrak	brehaut, there's gotta be a general static-fn macro like that, no?
22:23	brehaut	gtrak: no idea sorry
23:01	zcaudate	ibdknox\|aw
23:01	zcaudate	would anybody have an rss feed of this channel?
23:03	zcaudate	i know there is a log @ noise.net but i want to follow the conversation on my iphone
23:07	gtrak	rss feed of irc?
23:18	TimMc	that's a new one
23:21	choffstein	Anyone use AquaMacs? I find it to sometimes be incredibly slow. Trying to do a swank.core/break and pull up the inspector on any variable can take an absurd amount of time... I don't know if that is just me, or that is more common...
23:21	ibdknox\|away	I think the general word of wisdom is to stay away from aquamacs
23:21	ibdknox\|away	but I'm a vim guy... soo...
23:22	choffstein	fair enough
23:22	amalloy	anyone using aquamacs is on their own
23:22	callen	choffstein: you don't want to go there. Just get "Emacs for OS X", you'll be able to google it just fine.
23:22	choffstein	Yeah. I've got it.
23:23	choffstein	AquaMacs just allowed me to stay in this beautiful, crippled land where I can still have a file dialogue ;0
23:23	choffstein	;)
23:23	callen	choffstein: you should learn to use Emacs.
23:24	choffstein	Well, then I shall.
23:24	rlb	I thought that emacs brought up a file dialog if you used the menus...
23:25	gtrak	menus-disabled is the way to go
23:25	rlb	hmm, maybe not (at least not with emacs23-lucid)
23:25	technomancy	best to pretend they don't exist; they're kind of embarassing
23:25	rlb	maybe emacs23-gtk does (dunno -- or care much)
23:25	choffstein	This is a pretty random question, but maybe someone has a good answer. One of my biggest gripes with clojure is when I want to poke around with a new library, my process is to create a new lein project, add the dep, perform a lein deps, then do a lein repl. Then I have to delete the temp project. That just seems like a lot of wasted effort. Does anyone have a better way to go about it?
23:26	gtrak	create one project, and don't delete it?
23:26	rlb	choffstein: if you do go without the dialogs, I recommend enabling/learning iswitchb-mode.
23:26	technomancy	choffstein: you could just check out the project itself
23:26	technomancy	or keep a scratch project around
23:26	technomancy	this will be easier in lein2 with pomegranate
23:26	technomancy	(if you're not tired of hearing me say that yet, you will be soon)
23:27	callen	I'm at about 50% of the way there.
23:27	choffstein	Haha. Yeah ... those seem like horrible solutions, to be quite frank.
23:27	callen	technomancy: you're an excellent propagandist though.
23:27	choffstein	But I'll keep my eye on lein2
23:27	callen	iswitchb-mode is lordly.
23:27	technomancy	yeah, ideally you shouldn't even have to restart your project
23:27	callen	live and die by my ido-mode and iswitchb-mode
23:28	technomancy	callen: I thought ido is a superset of iswitchb?
23:28	gtrak	technomancy, that would be great
23:28	callen	technomancy: aye, but I use iswitchb for my buffers.
23:28	callen	you don't have to.
23:35	technomancy	haha; the build tool for F# is called fake
23:35	ibdknox\|away	wow
23:35	ibdknox\|away	I just got this email
23:35	technomancy	and it apparently has two orders of magnitude more LOC than leiningen? http://www.ohloh.net/p/fake-fsharp
23:35	ibdknox\|away	Hi Chris, We (also) want to convert our small Django based system to just static pages and the DB contains 3 year worth of employee records which we want to try to dynamically migrate to google spreadsheets. Would you be interested in taking this up?
23:35	ibdknox\|away	I feel like I'm getting trolled.
23:36	Scriptor	that was one issue I had with naming a build took in pharen
23:36	Scriptor	funny to see F# didn't give a damn
23:36	callen	technomancy: 165k LOC?!
23:36	callen	technomancy: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
23:36	technomancy	callen: it's got to be a bug in how they're measuring it
23:36	technomancy	I don't think that's actually possible
23:37	aperiodic	it also says that 65k of those lines were added in the last month
23:37	callen	technomancy: I'm pulling it now to measure it myself.
23:37	callen	no earthly way it could be that big.
23:39	callen	cloc says 84k
23:39	muhoo	what's this codewall people are talking about?
23:39	muhoo	i went to codewall.com and it apparently is some .NET security software
23:39	Scriptor	F#'s build tool
23:39	Scriptor	oh
23:39	ibdknox	muhoo: coderwall
23:39	muhoo	ah
23:39	technomancy	callen: still; disturbing
23:40	callen	technomancy: I don't actually trust that number.
23:40	callen	technomancy: I'm resolving it now.
23:40	muhoo	funny. "Unlock achievements". why must everything be a game?
23:40	muhoo	post a new project on github and get a powerup
23:41	callen	technomancy: nope, it's mis-including package lists and the dependencies.
23:41	technomancy	muhoo: oh man, once you get triple shot it changes everything
23:41	callen	technomancy: it's only 1314 lines of code.
23:41	callen	it doesn't do a whole helluva lot IIRC
23:41	technomancy	ok, that's more like it
23:42	callen	there's a lot of XML and shit too
23:42	callen	it's a pretty ugly project IMHO, but it's not that big either.
23:42	callen	this was a healthy reminder of why I abandoned the .NET world early in my career.
23:42	technomancy	I like the idea of ocaml with libraries and concurrency
23:42	callen	whenever you need the fax and only the fax, just call callen.
23:43	technomancy	but then again, part of the draw of ocaml is that it doesn't use a VM
23:43	callen	right, which is why I find the fascination with F# puzzling.
23:43	callen	the only reason I looked into OCaml was because it wasn't on a VM.
23:43	technomancy	I mean, the draw of ocaml for Clojure users
23:43	technomancy	I have no idea how C# users think
23:44	callen	who knows. I try not to remember those days.
23:45	callen	I spent most of my time in C# muttering to myself about how much I hated it.
23:45	callen	muhoo: coderwall.com
23:46	technomancy	if coding were really like a game you'd have to unlock stuff like ido-mode and the slime inspector
23:47	callen	astute.
23:48	talios	woo - seems I've gained a few coderwall achievements since I last looked :) http://coderwall.com/talios
23:49	Scriptor	ah, nice, expedited access with twitter access
23:49	Scriptor	having a twitter I don't actually use comes in handy once again
23:50	technomancy	I'm still annoyed that coderwall accused me of having an original C++ project
23:50	technomancy	because I uploaded znc rather than forking it.
23:53	callen	technomancy: didn't you want the option of eliminating the timestamps from the replay?
23:53	technomancy	callen: I thought it would be easy to get them collapsed into erc's timestamps where it only shows them once per minute
23:54	technomancy	but I realized that's nontrivial since those are generated internally to erc
23:54	callen	right, as is the case with most IRC clients.
23:54	callen	you can't fake it unless you have a cooperative web client or custom script that subsumes the output.
23:56	callen	technomancy: I was planning on writing not because of that particular annoyance, but because I wanted a foundation to build things like hubot on top of, and because I want to be able to stash IRC history in a common accessible database that multiple services/bots could utilize.
23:56	callen	writing it*
23:56	technomancy	callen: did you take a look at subrosa?
23:57	callen	technomancy: yeah, not really sure how to hook into it.
23:57	technomancy	right... especially when you're getting started there's this weird dynamic where it's easier in some ways to start from scratch than build on an existing codebase
23:58	callen	technomancy: it has a bunch of shims for common-case IRC-usage type stuff but I don't see anything fundamental like what I would need.
23:58	callen	technomancy: that
23:58	callen	that's precisely the problem. I'm too nubcakes.
23:58	technomancy	like it's quantitatively more work to start from scratch
23:58	technomancy	but it's easier work in a way
23:58	callen	this wouldn't be a problem in a language I was comfortable with, obv.
23:58	callen	Clojure does a tip-top job of making me feel like a moron though, so there it is.
23:59	accel	I have written a clojure app with crappy algorithms, and it's about 100x slower than it needs to be. I don't know where the bottlenecks are. What is the equivalent of gprof but for clojure?
23:59	callen	I found his hooks setup, I could...try using that. I don't see any examples though.