#clojure – 2012-02-23

2012-02-23

00:10	jaimef	is there an equivalent to ruby .methods?
00:11	callen	jaimef: forget everything you knew about Ruby, just learn Clojure as a blank-slate. I recommend getting a book.
00:11	jaimef	ok lets refr
00:12	jaimef	rephrase without the assumption ofb a common frame of reference
00:12	callen	jaimef: it doesn't port over conceptually
00:12	callen	jaimef: I'm not trying to be difficult, you need to drop the concept of object-orientation entirely.
00:12	jaimef	so no (class []) then?
00:12	callen	jaimef: you can solve some similar problems in some cases, but you need to wipe your mind clean.
00:13	callen	jaimef: no, that's effin' ridic man. Hickey intentionally avoided OO. Just learn it from scratch./
00:13	jaimef	like recur?
00:13	jaimef	;)
00:14	jaimef	in a repl i was looking to see if there was a way to display all functions that can be applied to a specific data type
00:15	emezeske	jaimef: that's going to be a looooooooong list
00:15	jaimef	yeah figured
00:15	emezeske	jaimef: consider this function (fn [x] [x x])
00:15	emezeske	jaimef: that can be applied to any data type
00:15	jaimef	yeap
00:18	emezeske	jaimef: maybe 'ns-publics' could be helpful? generally the functions that deal with a particular piece of data will be in the same namespace
00:19	emezeske	,(ns-publics 'clojure.java.io)
00:19	clojurebot	{output-stream #'clojure.java.io/output-stream, copy #'clojure.java.io/copy, file #'clojure.java.io/file, writer #'clojure.java.io/writer, as-relative-path #'clojure.java.io/as-relative-path, ...}
00:20	cemerick	There's always what's behind findfn…
00:20	cemerick	$findfn foo :foo
00:20	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)
00:20	cemerick	er
00:20	cemerick	$findfn "foo" :foo
00:20	lazybot	[clojure.core/keyword clojure.core/find-keyword]
00:22	jaimef	nice thanks.
00:24	amalloy	emezeske, jaimef: if we were as strongly typed as haskell we could use hoogle, but instead we have findfn
00:24	emezeske	amalloy: yeah, hoogle is great!
00:25	amalloy	because the type of that function would be something like (a -> (a, a)), which tells you a lot; presumably you would have something more specific in mind for "all functions that can be applied to a type"
00:26	emezeske	amalloy: you just reminded me how much I miss haskell's currying :(
00:27	amalloy	go write some haskell, so you can miss varargs instead
00:28	emezeske	touche`
00:28	emezeske	well that, and I will miss being able to throw in some IO wherever I damn well please
00:28	emezeske	"no, I'm not going to leave this here and ruin the purity. but yes, I DO WANT A PRINTLN HERE FOR THE MOMENT."
00:31	amalloy	yeah, i never quite understood the IO type/monad/whatever
00:31	amalloy	(you can tell i didn't get very far in my haskell)
00:32	emezeske	it's pretty cool that your code is proved to be side-effect free, but between that and the pervasive laziness, I find debugging difficult. Maybe that's just due to my "all I need for debugging is println" mindset though...
00:43	lynaghk``	Is there a way to see if something is "applyable"? Basically, (applyable? :key) and (applyable? (fn [x] ...)) should both be true
00:47	amalloy	&(doc ifn?)
00:47	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns true if x implements IFn. Note that many data structures (e.g. sets and maps) implement IFn"
00:47	lynaghk``	ah, thanks amalloy
00:48	amalloy	$findarg map % [#() [] {}, 1 true ()] [true true true false false false]
00:48	lazybot	[clojure.core/ifn?]
00:48	lynaghk``	whoa, that's a nice trick.
00:50	amalloy	yeah, i should add a version of findarg that takes a map of [in, out] so you can ignore the map % stuff, and group things together
00:57	pmbauer	exit
02:26	_ulises	morning all
02:26	_ulises	or evening, depending on your tz
02:29	emezeske	_ulises: Goooooood mornin'!
02:29	_ulises	morning sire!
02:29	emezeske	:)
02:32	_ulises	what's the preferred way of writing tests which include resources in terms of paths?
02:33	_ulises	e.g. if I want to test a fn such as load-data, I'm thinking of doing (let [loaded (load-data ".....")] (is ...))
02:33	_ulises	so I'm wondering about the best way of filling in the "..." gap there
02:34	_ulises	(ideally I'd stay away from things like "../../resources/data.foo")
02:36	emezeske	_ulises: if it's on the classpath (which I think /resources is), you can do (resource "data.foo") maybe?
02:36	_ulises	ah, cool, I was just reading about that
02:37	_ulises	thank you, oh! distinguished sir!
02:37	emezeske	^_^
02:41	ibdknox\|away	I just made a noir app with a console to modify the app from within itself lol
02:42	ibdknox\|away	it seems a clooj-like env done as a webapp would be pretty easy to build
02:42	emezeske	ibdknox\|away: it's noirs all the way down
02:42	ibdknox\|away	a black hole ;)
02:43	ibdknox\|away	~rimshot
02:43	clojurebot	Badum, tish
02:43	emezeske	^_^
02:43	emezeske	~(def rumshot "Glug, glug, glug...")
02:43	clojurebot	Pardon?
02:43	ibdknox\|away	also, where are you guys such that it's morning?
02:44	emezeske	well, for me it's 12:43 AM
02:44	emezeske	eeeearly morning :)
02:44	_ulises	for me it's 7:43am :'(
02:44	_ulises	trying to do some clojure before going to work
02:45	ibdknox\|away	yeah I'm PST, so 11:44
02:45	magnars	It's always morning when entering an IRC-channel, ref Universal Greeting Time. http://thinkmoult.com/ugt.html :-)
02:45	emezeske	I'm out, catch y'all later
02:45	_ulises	enjoy
02:45	_ulises	I like that magnars
02:45	ibdknox\|away	lol
02:58	hiredman	repl running on streams backed by a message queue (hornetq) https://github.com/hiredman/vespa-crabro/blob/master/test/vespa_crabro/test/core.clj#L60
03:21	ideally_world	I'm a bit confused around java.clojure.io/reader. Using the first example on http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/line-seq works, but if I remove the count, I'm getting an IOException from BufferedReader ensureOpen, but no idea why :(
03:24	amalloy	i haven't looked at your link, but: laziness
03:24	Fossi	yeah
03:24	Fossi	i get: stream closed
03:24	amalloy	i'm afk, someone else clarify about with-open
03:25	tsdh	amalloy: Yep, I do.
03:25	Fossi	because the count realises the line-seq
03:25	Fossi	(with-open [rdr (clojure.java.io/reader "/etc/passwd")] (doall (line-seq rdr))) works again
03:26	Fossi	with-open closes the stream when the execution is leaving it's scope
03:26	ideally_world	yeah, lazy
03:26	tsdh	So the problem is that you leave the with-open (and thus the reader is closed) without realizing the complete seq. If an unrealized item is tried to be consumed later on which will try to read from the reader, that's already closed.
03:26	ideally_world	doall realizes the list
03:26	Fossi	but you have a "dangling end" still having to read from the file for the values
03:27	ideally_world	yeah, getting it now, thanks :)
03:27	Fossi	i hate those issues :/
03:27	Fossi	it's worse with exceptions
03:27	ideally_world	OK, so have to evaluate the lazy seq in the with clause
03:30	ideally_world	that's subtle, but obvious
05:39	tsdh	Do I see it correctly that extending protocols will always respect the type hierarchy, i.e., I can extend a protocol to Object first as a default, and later to more specific types, and an invocation will always be performed to the most specific definition?
05:56	morphling	tsdh: yes. protocols use dynamic single dispatch, just like java interfaces
05:57	tsdh	morphling: Perfect.
07:46	tsdh	Does clojure.core/assert have anything in common with the -ea JVM option?
07:53	tsdh	Hm, seems no.
08:17	bsteuber	I love the extensible reader
08:17	bsteuber	can't wait to abuse it
08:18	bsteuber	#infix [3 * x + 1]
08:19	bsteuber	#keys [a b :or 42 c] instead of {:keys [a b c] :or {b 42}}
08:29	clgv	bsteuber: #infix is great from the mathematic point of view
08:31	bsteuber	but I guess one of the guidelines will be "never do reader syntax when a macro just works"
08:34	cemerick	well, it's not really reader syntax
08:34	cemerick	but, carry on :-)
08:35	bsteuber	sure it doesn't parse strings
08:35	bsteuber	but clj data
08:35	bsteuber	so way better even :)
08:38	bsteuber	and cleanly serializable records comes for free
08:43	bsteuber	since records can hold additional data, we also have roundtripping between different versions
08:43	bsteuber	try that, java guys
08:49	bsteuber	oh the record stuff was already possible before, my bad
08:50	bsteuber	but not with custom formats at least
09:10	jsabeaudry	,(print (char 2))
09:12	jsabeaudry	Is there there a name for all the non printable characters (such as \newline) or is (char n) the idiomatic way to represent them?
09:13	jsabeaudry	All resources I say mention only newline space and tab
09:13	jsabeaudry	s/say/see/
09:18	TimMc	What is the point of the io! function?
09:18	TimMc	I mean, I know what it does.
09:20	TimMc	I'm just having trouble understanding where it would get used. println doesn't use it, for instance.
09:20	hoeck	jsabeaudry: only a few of them have names, I'd say (char n) is okay, or unicode notation: \u0008
09:21	jsabeaudry	hoeck, Thanks!
09:21	TimMc	jsabeaudry: I think you'd have to check the reader's documentation and source.
09:22	hoeck	,(filter #(< 2 (count %)) (map #(pr-str (char %))(range 32)))
09:22	clojurebot	("\\backspace" "\\tab" "\\newline" "\\formfeed" "\\return")
09:22	hoeck	jsabeaudry: ^ those are the named ones
09:22	TimMc	haha, nice
09:22	jsabeaudry	hoeck, nice trick!
09:38	TimMc	Probably no coincidence that they all begin with their shortform letter.
09:38	TimMc	\r[eturn], \f[ormfeed]...
09:39	TimMc	but I suppose the connection is just that the short forms are abbreviations for the canonical long-names.
09:40	raek	jsabeaudry: TimMc: the long names are stored in the char-name-string map
09:40	raek	,char-name-string
09:40	clojurebot	{\space "space", \backspace "backspace", \tab "tab", \newline "newline", \formfeed "formfeed", ...}
09:42	raek	jsabeaudry: what do you mean by "the idiomatic way to represent then"? the ideomatic way to write them as literals in code?
09:44	babilen	TimMc: Sorry for getting back to you just now, but I owe you my thanks. Your code still had some problems in that it did not behave exactly as split would for strings -- I am using https://refheap.com/paste/806 now and am pretty happy with it. Thanks so much for all your pointers!
09:45	babilen	TimMc: In particular (split-at-subsequence [1 2] [1 2 1 2 1 2]) -> () \o/
09:52	pjstadig	~mascot
09:52	clojurebot	the official mascot of clojure is a futuristic ninja robot
09:52	clgv	&char-name-string
09:52	lazybot	⇒ {\space "space", \backspace "backspace", \tab "tab", \newline "newline", \formfeed "formfeed", \return "return"}
10:08	tfaro	just wondering...where can i get steroids - I want to learn clojure
10:12	mdeboard	what.
10:12	clgv	tfaro: lol, that's possible without steroids :P
10:12	mdeboard	he left
10:13	clgv	mdeboard: ah. I filtered those messages ^^
10:13	mdeboard	oic
10:13	clgv	a pity my client cant filter the renaming ones as well^^
10:18	ssedano	Hi, how can I print (log) the actual class of a variable?
10:19	clgv	ssedano: via (class v)
10:19	clgv	&(let [v 2.0] (println (class v)))
10:19	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Double nil
10:35	TimMc	mdeboard: Bah, short-timers.
10:35	mdeboard	lol, indeed.
10:37	Fossi	yeah, this channel tends to be mainly leave and joins if you display them ;)
10:38	mdeboard	At certain times of day absolutely
10:38	mdeboard	I'm sure there's a way for me to turn them off in RCIRC I just don't bother
10:38	clgv	thats why I switched those off^^
10:41	TimMc	A useful feature would be to only show nicks, parts, re-joins, and quits of those who have spoken recently.
10:41	clgv	indeed
10:42	mdeboard	Do you guys all use emacs for irc
10:43	clgv	nope.
10:43	mdeboard	or am I alone a god
10:43	vijaykiran	yup
10:43	TimMc	mdeboard: I recall someone here using ERC
10:44	vijaykiran	I use rcirc - switched from erc
10:44	mdeboard	ya rcirc is great
10:45	vijaykiran	C-c C-i is Omit mode - which keeps the channel clear for me without those join/left noise .. FWIW
10:45	mdeboard	Oh wow
10:45	mdeboard	You are a god
10:45	mdeboard	I tremble before you
10:46	vijaykiran	Wait .. C-c C-o (omit mode) and C-c C-i (ignore the activity) so no modeline indication
10:46	vijaykiran	now you can tremble .. for realz :P
10:46	mdeboard	amazing
10:47	ssedano	thank you clgv (sorry I was away)
11:10	micahmartin	I've been researching reader macros. Back in 2008 Rich took a hard stance in not supporting them. What's the verdict these days? Is it possible to define a new reader macro in Clojure?
11:12	`fogus	micahmartin: While not technically a reader macro in the CL sense, the upcoming 1.4 tagged literals get you close
11:12	TimMc	micahmartin: Not in a non-sketchy way, no.
11:12	TimMc	Technically, you can bust into the reader and do horrible things to it programmatically.
11:14	micahmartin	With clojure.core/print-method it's possible to print new types….
11:14	micahmartin	… but how can I tell clojure how to read in the new types?
11:14	pjstadig	you can't except possibly with the tagged literals in 1.4 as `fogus said
11:14	TimMc	. o O ( precate, is that the opposite of decprecate? )
11:15	TimMc	s/dec/de/
11:15	`fogus	They look like this: #tag-name <some-valid-clojure-form>
11:15	pjstadig	TimMc: i think it's actually proprecate
11:15	TimMc	micahmartin: There's also the semi-undocumented #=() eval-in-reader form, but people will throw things at you if you use it.
11:16	TimMc	I would imagine it is going away in 1.4.
11:17	TimMc	Haha, it is! "You know, the opposite of deprecate."
11:17	TimMc	"Suggest a new project.clj that's compatible with Leiningen 2."
11:20	micahmartin	,(read-string (pr-str (java.util.Date.)))
11:20	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unreadable form>
11:21	micahmartin	Is there "accepted" way to tell the reader how to read a Date?
11:21	cemerick	TimMc: yup, lein precate is an auto-upgrade tool for project.clj files.
11:23	`fogus	micahmartin: ATM (clj 1.3 and below) people accomplish that via #=
11:23	micahmartin	`focus: thanks… I'll look into that
11:24	`fogus	,(read-string "#=(java.util.Date.)")
11:24	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
11:24	`fogus	Of course that will not work!
11:24	jsabeaudry	,(byte 0xff)
11:24	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for byte: 255>
11:24	jsabeaudry	Really java?
11:24	TimMc	jsabeaudry: No unsigned bytes.
11:24	TimMc	Sort of.
11:25	jsabeaudry	Could do an automatic conversion
11:25	TimMc	&(.byteValue 255)
11:25	lazybot	⇒ -1
11:25	TimMc	&(.byteValue 256)
11:25	lazybot	⇒ 0
11:26	jsabeaudry	So basically (byte (.byteValue n)) everytime, might as well shadow byte with that
11:26	TimMc	sure
11:29	TimMc	(defn ^byte ^:by-hook-or-by-crook byte [^Long x] (byte (.byteValue x)))
11:30	TimMc	s/lack of refer-clojure and explicit namespaces/fixed/
11:31	mrevil	is there a more concise way to do this: (repeatedly (fn [] (somefn server keyspace "packages")))
11:32	jsabeaudry	using #()
11:32	jsabeaudry	that shaves off a couple of characters if you are golfing
11:32	mrevil	cool, ty
11:33	dnolen	tscheibl: hey I think we should just fix the unicode issue once and for all, just patching the keyword / symbol is case is not really addressing the issue
11:34	dnolen	tscheibl: we should use StringBuilder to go over char of a string, replacing chars with values > 127 (I think)
11:34	stuartsierra	TimMc: I don't think that will work.
11:35	mrevil	is there a way to speed up lein uberjar? it takes forever, and I end up calling it frequently to test with hadoop.
11:35	stuartsierra	at least, it won't get you a primitive `byte`
11:35	TimMc	stuartsierra: Because you won't get the inlined RT method?
11:35	stuartsierra	TimMc: More that fns cannot be type-hinted to return primitive `byte`
11:36	stuartsierra	At best you'll get java.lang.Byte
11:36	TimMc	hrmph
11:36	jsabeaudry	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/char This says a byte can be coerced to char but thats only true for half the bytes right?
11:37	TimMc	stuartsierra: But if :inline were used, you could get a primitive byte, since it would be a VarInvokeExpr, right?
11:37	stuartsierra	I don't think so.
11:38	stuartsierra	There's no IFn interface that returns primitive `byte`
11:38	stuartsierra	Only combinations of long, double, and Object.
11:38	TimMc	stuartsierra: clojure.core/byte does it somehow
11:39	stuartsierra	only in loops
11:39	TimMc	Hah, interesting.
11:39	TimMc	loop locals?
11:39	stuartsierra	yes
11:39	TimMc	Interesting, thanks.
11:39	stuartsierra	np
11:40	cemerick	TimMc: that's inlining at work, if I'm not mistaken.
11:40	TimMc	stuartsierra: It also takes effect for method calls, right? (.takesAByte (byte whatever))
11:41	stuartsierra	um ... yes? I think.
11:41	stuartsierra	The fns like `byte` and `int` are weird. In some contexts the compiler treats them like casts.
11:42	stuartsierra	But they're also ordinary functions, with all the usual function behavior, including number boxing.
11:55	cemerick	TimMc: Yes, again because of inlining.
12:02	dnolen	TimMc: 'some contexts' aka usage that is not higher order
12:05	fliebel	cemerick: Did you ever get around to publishing raposo?
12:07	fliebel	I just found your conj 2011 talk, after getting stuck with Udacity. http://blip.tv/clojure/chas-emerick-modeling-the-world-probabilistically-using-bayesian-networks-in-clojure-5961126
12:08	fliebel	stuck, meaning that I was fine with moving robots, but had a little trouble when it was suddenly about math.
12:25	cemerick	fliebel: not yet; it's in the background at the moment :-(
12:25	humasect	& ?
12:25	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ? in this context
12:25	humasect	& (+ 1 2)
12:25	lazybot	⇒ 3
12:25	humasect	ohh =)
12:25	humasect	i meant, background-process ^_^
12:27	fliebel	cemerick: Just FYI, a whole new generation of "bayesians" is is being taught at Udacity.
12:27	cemerick	heh, that's good!
12:28	tufflax	vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
12:28	tufflax	ops
12:29	fliebel	cemerick: http://www.udacity.com I'm doing their robotics class.
12:30	fliebel	ATM my mental model of bayesian distributions is aparrently only suitable for moving robots :(
12:30	fliebel	oh, and determining of the ground is wet.
12:32	tmciver	fliebel: udacity looks cool. Is there a cost to enroll?
12:37	technomancy	mdeboard: M-x rcirc-omit-mode is what you want
12:37	technomancy	it's the best thing about rcirc IMO
12:37	mdeboard	Yeah that's damn cool
12:38	technomancy	TimMc: yes, precate is the opposite of deprecate
12:38	humasect	apprecate ?
12:38	technomancy	in my made-up logic anyway
12:38	mdeboard	oh wow
12:38	mdeboard	M-x rcirc-cmd-bright is neat too
12:38	pandeiro	is rcirc another irc mode?
12:38	mdeboard	pandeiro: yeah
12:39	pandeiro	i still love erc, i guess one day it will wear off
12:40	technomancy	I went back to erc because rcirc doesn't work well with our private IRC server, but I like rcirc better overall.
12:40	pandeiro	technomancy: way more features?
12:41	technomancy	pandeiro: no, in general it's simpler
12:41	pandeiro	wow, simpler than erc, now i'm interested
12:42	technomancy	2.4kloc
12:42	technomancy	anyway, erc silently swallows input in query buffers when the target has gone offline, and rcirc-omit-mode is great for only showing the join/part messages you're interested in
12:43	technomancy	holy smokes
12:43	technomancy	erc with all its optional modules is 14kloc
12:44	technomancy	the core is 5.3kloc
12:46	TimMc	technomancy: "only showing the join/part messages you're interested in", such as for people who have been active recently?
12:46	technomancy	yup
12:46	TimMc	sweeeeet
12:47	technomancy	in erc I just rely on my tab completion, but there are race conditions
12:48	TimMc	Actually, I'm amazed at how small Emacs' footprint is.
12:48	technomancy	it's like ... eight megs.
12:48	technomancy	and constantly swapping
12:54	TimMc	Hmm... does using a functional language make for programs with larger state spaces?
12:55	TimMc	(or at least provide for more potential for that)
12:55	stuartsierra	Smaller state spaces, I'd hope.
12:55	technomancy	it makes the state space "closer to finite"?
12:56	TimMc	There's probably a vocabulary mismatch here.
12:56	TimMc	I'll go away and think about what I really mean.
12:57	TimMc	Formalization is hard, let's go shopping.
12:59	fliebel	tmciver: No, free.
13:00	TimMc	Is this the Stanford breakaway?
13:00	fliebel	TimMc: I'm not sure. It has Youtube with maths instead of cats.
13:02	fliebel	TimMc: I'd be interested in hearing the question, after you finished shopping. It seems related to my experiments with functional games.
13:04	mdeboard	fliebel: Did you see the story on HN today about a lisp interpreter inside some game
13:04	mdeboard	fliebel: http://www.a1k0n.net/2005/11/04/lisp-repl-vendetta-online.html
13:04	fliebel	mdeboard: No! Thanks :)
13:05	fliebel	mdeboard: Functional language != functional style though. There is little difference between modifying the world, and threading the world trough your functions.
13:05	TimMc	fliebel: Skim through this paper on exploit programming as a study of the formal properties of "weird machines" and maybe you'll end up with the same question: <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sergey/langsec/papers/Bratus.pdf>
13:06	TimMc	fliebel: ...with FP in mind.
13:10	fliebel	TimMc: Can you think without FP on your mind? :P
13:11	TimMc	Nope!
13:12	TimMc	I've been eating, breathing, and dreaming s-expressions for the past week or so.
13:13	fliebel	TimMc: I still don;t get the state space. You mean like a finit state machine?
13:13	mdeboard	&(reduce + (take-while #(> 10 %) (range 183490834)))
13:13	lazybot	⇒ 45
13:13	fliebel	My skimming was... brief though.
13:14	tmciver	TimMc: Only the past week or so?!
13:14	TimMc	fliebel: Isn't that what a computer is? :-P
13:15	TimMc	tmciver: The dreaming part is new.
13:15	vinte	hmm -- so strange lein prob -- ive linked my maven to our internal nexus repo
13:15	vinte	but that seems to have killed lein's ability to install clojure stuff :(
13:15	vinte	how do i get it to look in clojars too?
13:16	technomancy	it will look in clojars as long as you don't have :omit-default-repos true in your project.clj
13:16	fliebel	TimMc: Yea, probably. Then I agree with stuartsierra, I would think a functional program would in general go trough less states.
13:19	vinte	technomancy: i swear i have no such thing in there -- but it doesnt seem to be looking (it complains it cant find it ). It does also complain that it cant find some kind of super-pom
13:19	technomancy	vinte: probably a typo then
13:19	technomancy	super-pom is just maven-speak for "your project"
13:20	fliebel	TimMc: I think that is also what is causing me trouble with my Clojure game. There are so many states, and you have to be explicit about all of them.
13:22	dnolen	fliebel: have you been following http://oblong-code.blogspot.com/? I curious how he's dealing with these issues
13:22	vinte	technomancy: weird! okay looking into it -- brb
13:22	vinte	can i just say im not a maven fan
13:22	pandeiro	fliebel: you've seen this before right? http://prog21.dadgum.com/23.html
13:23	fliebel	dnolen: No. Looking at it now. I did see the prog21 stuff, I'm having an email conversation with that guy now.
13:23	`fogus_away	technomancy: lein-marg070-snap is in the wild. Thanks for the patch
13:23	dnolen	fliebel: he's been working on games off and on in Scala, recently switched to Clojure it seems
13:23	technomancy	`fogus_away: excellent. yesterday I was on a plugins rampage; lots of fun. =)
13:24	`fogus	anyone know if lein run causes odd runtime foibles?
13:24	fliebel	dnolen: Interesting, thanks :)
13:24	technomancy	`fogus: in being inaccessable is the main one
13:25	technomancy	`fogus: "lein trampoline run" solves that as well as a few other issues
13:25	`fogus	E.G. I'm seeing that clojure.core macros are returning false for .isMacro. But I've not yet tracked that cause
13:25	technomancy	I don't think you can pin that one on lein =)
13:26	TimMc	fliebel: There's a distinction to be made between state-as-your-program-sees-it and programs-as-state.
13:26	`fogus	It seems unlikely for sure
13:27	dnolen	fliebel: Nikki and the Robots devs probably have a lot of interesting stories from developing their game in Haskell
13:27	fliebel	dnolen: Another one that's going to be read about later.
13:28	fliebel	TimMc: You're saying there is more state because the code itself is also state?
13:28	TimMc	fliebel: Right.
13:29	TimMc	Sort of. It's actually not clear to me at the moment.
13:29	fliebel	TimMc: I don't think any of that is actual state at runtime, unless you tell it to. Like, quoting it.
13:30	TimMc	Read the PDF I linked, or at least skim it.
13:32	TimMc	I should do the same, to refresh my memory.
13:33	fliebel	TimMc: I skimmed it, but I have to much on my mind to actually let it sink in. I got as much as "werid machine bla bla printf blabla exploit blabla"
13:33	TimMc	heh
13:34	fliebel	dnolen: Do you know if they have any dev blog? The first few obvious google result do not even mention Haskell.
13:34	dnolen	fliebel: I don't think they have a dev blog which is unfortunate
13:34	fliebel	Which is good, marketing wise, as long as you;re not targeting geeks.
13:35	fliebel	dnolen: Ok, so I'll just have to nag them for information. ;)
13:36	dnolen	fliebel: never a bad idea
13:37	fliebel	dnolen: Oh, I found the source, so I should at least do my own research for a bit.
13:38	vinte	technomancy: certainly not working im afraid -- seems to die on "org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver.DefaultArtifactResolver.resolveTransitively(DefaultArtifactResolver.java:360"
13:38	vinte	(mvn via eclipse is fine otherwise)
13:48	technomancy	vinte: hm; what exactly is wrong?
13:49	vinte	technomancy: something weird with our internal settings.xml it seems
13:49	vinte	if i remove it -- lein works perfectly
13:49	vinte	so something screwed up with that, ill try and figure it out. Thanks for your help :)
13:49	technomancy	sure; hope you get it figured out
13:56	lpetit	I have a java interop call to make. On the java side, the expected argument is of type Map<String, Integer>.
13:56	lpetit	How do I do the interop call?
13:57	lpetit	I mean, when I do (.interopMethod {"key" SomeJavaClass/SOME_CONSTANT_INTEGER_FIELD}) it fails miserably on the javaside
13:57	cemerick	vinte: maven-ant-tasks (which lein 1.x uses) does not play nice with server authentication (or is it mirror configuration?) in settings.xml
13:58	cemerick	right; I need to remove my usual <mirror> config to use lein 1.x
13:58	lpetit	with an exception like "Expected Integer, got Long"
13:58	lpetit	Some method in the Eclipse framework does: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: "The attribute value type is java.lang.Long and expected is one of java.lang.String, Boolean, Integer"
13:58	cemerick	lpetit: (Integer. SOME_CONSTANT_INTEGER)
13:58	lpetit	oh yes !
13:58	amalloy	lpetit: that should be fixed in the 1.4 betas, as well as cemerick's suggestion
13:59	lpetit	thx guys
14:01	amalloy	(just tested; it is indeed fixed in 1.4 beta1, if not sooner)
14:05	lpetit	ok great news,
14:47	duck1123	didn't there used to be a way to have leiningen install shell scripts? Is that still supported, or is it best to just make everything as a lein plugin?
14:47	technomancy	duck1123: it's supported in lein1; hasn't been implemented in lein2 yet but is planned
14:47	technomancy	interested in hearing your use case though since afaik it's hardly used at all
14:49	duck1123	I'm thinking of making a simple script that does little else than send a command to a remote server. I have it as a plugin now, and was considering if I wanted it as a standalone script
14:49	technomancy	duck1123: note that these scripts still require leiningen installed, which is probably why they are not used very widely
14:49	malkomalko	hi guys, I'm migrating an app to 1.3 from 1.2, and am doing research on the clojure.contrib packages. did any of the clojure.contrib.string packages get moved or are they gone?
14:49	technomancy	malkomalko: clojure.string mostly, but arities have changed, so beware
14:49	malkomalko	I checked http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go but didn't find anything
14:49	malkomalko	ok
14:50	technomancy	malkomalko: probably because that was moved in the 1.1 -> 1.2 transition
14:50	duck1123	the only thing I could see it gaining me is not having to type "lein " but I couldn't find any docs on that part, so I asked
14:50	malkomalko	got it
14:50	technomancy	duck1123: swank-clojure is the only thing that uses it afaict
14:50	TimMc	malkomalko: It is listed in the text at the top -- the migration happened before 1.3.
14:50	technomancy	not 100% sure it should be moved to lein2 to be honest
14:51	duck1123	I think I'll keep everything as a plugin
14:51	malkomalko	ahh thanks timmc
14:51	duck1123	I can always alias it if I'm feeling particularly lazy
14:51	malkomalko	I did a search in my browser for string but it didn't pop up for some reason
14:52	TimMc	malkomalko: Confluence captures "/" if you tried using quicksearch in Firefox.
14:52	TimMc	Scumbag CRM, keeps you from searching within the page.
14:53	malkomalko	yup.. oh well
14:53	malkomalko	:)
14:53	malkomalko	thanks anyway guys, I'll play around with it
14:53	TimMc	*CMS
14:54	duck1123	There's no such thing as a dev-checkouts, is there? I have a project that is a dependency of my plugin. When I update that dependency, I still have to re-build the plugin and deps the project that uses that plugin, despite all of them being in my checkouts dir.
14:54	technomancy	duck1123: symlink into ~/.lein/plugins works
14:55	TimMc	symlink to plugin's project dir, which then has a checkouts dir?
14:56	technomancy	oh, no that won't work transitively unfortunately
15:01	tjgillies	man 'lein dep' is so much easier than bundler
15:07	duck1123	but symlinking your plugin project directory inside ~/.lein/plugins should work? I've done that, but am not seeing my task.
15:08	technomancy	duck1123: sorry, it should be a symlink to the src/ dir of your plugin
15:47	osa1_	where can I find JAR of this: https://github.com/rosado/clj-processing ?
15:53	duck1123	osa1_, http://clojars.org/processing-core/processing.core
15:54	duck1123	so if you actually want the jar, http://clojars.org/repo/processing-core/processing.core/1.0.0-SNAPSHOT/ grab the latest
15:56	osa1_	duck1123: I think what I need is clj-processing, not processing
15:56	duck1123	technomancy, are you aware of the issue where if a plugin requires a project that requires ant that lein deps will fail every other time? I see several related closed issues and am not sure if I should open another one.
15:56	duck1123	osa1_, that's what the readme file directs you to
15:58	duck1123	osa1_, although it looks like the readme directs to 0.1.0, so I'm not sure which version is best
15:58	cemerick	weavejester: lein-ring uses clojure.contrib.prxml, but doesn't declare it in its project.clj…?
15:58	Kowboy	technomancy, ymacs inside of emacs? WHY?...macs.
16:00	weavejester	cemerick: Yeah, it's an error I need to fix, but I've been putting it off a little because an independent prxml looked like it was just around the corner.
16:03	cemerick	weavejester: OK; I was going to take a whack at making it lein2-ready
16:04	aaelony	what's the best way to convert a java.sql.Date to something clj-time can use?
16:05	brehaut	aaelony: clj-time.coerce i think has some stuff for that
16:05	weavejester	cemerick: Probably, but… bleh, it feels like the wrong tool for the job.
16:05	cemerick	shrug
16:05	weavejester	java.sql.Date inherits from java.util.Date I believe.
16:05	aaelony	brehaut: cool, I'll check it out (absent other comments)
16:06	cemerick	anyway, there's about 114 libraries that produce XML.
16:07	duck1123	and many of them are wholly incompatible with the others
16:07	cemerick	weavejester: shall I leave it be, or would you be open to a patch to make it lein2-ready?
16:07	cemerick	(not that I know what the changes might be right now)
16:09	weavejester	cemerick: I'd like to avoid Hiccup, because I'd like to change some of the namespaces before version 1.0.0, and that's a little difficult if older versions are dependencies of existing libraries.
16:10	cemerick	that's fine; I'm not attached to any particular approach
16:10	weavejester	cemerick: I guess with lein-ring most of my attention has been thus far focused on getting the new :plugins bit working.
16:10	weavejester	Which probably comes under the "lein2" compatibility umbrella.
16:10	cemerick	definitely
16:11	cemerick	if you're already working on it, I certainly won't get in your way :-)
16:12	weavejester	cemerick: If you have any good suggestions for XML generating libraries, I'm all ears :)
16:12	cemerick	weavejester: if not hiccup, just using the fork of prxml that lein2 is using might be reasonable?
16:13	cemerick	it's totally an implementation detail, so it seems a stopgap is reasonable there
16:15	weavejester	cemerick: Oh yeah, that's a good idea. At least until it appears in the official clojure repos.
16:20	weavejester	cemerick: Actually, let me sort it out now.
16:28	technomancy	duck1123: yeah, it's tracked in https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/420
16:30	duck1123	technomancy, ok. I didn't see that one. (was searching for 'ant') I won't open a dupe then
16:30	technomancy	cemerick: implicit dependency on lein's own dependencies was actually totally kosher in lein1
16:32	mdeboard	What's the third argument to (nil?)
16:32	mdeboard	&(nil? {:a nil :b 1} :a 1)
16:32	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$nil-QMARK-
16:32	mdeboard	wat
16:32	aaelony	is there a freenode channel for Incanter? I'm in, but see no one there...
16:33	weavejester	technomancy: Nice to know it wasn't a mistake in lein1 :)
16:33	mdeboard	&(nil? ({:a nil :b 1} :a 1))
16:34	TimMc	mdeboard: nil? is only taking one arg there
16:34	mdeboard	Yeah
16:35	mdeboard	misread a solution on 4clojure
16:35	TimMc	hah, OK
16:35	cemerick	technomancy: well, weavejester can just add the same dep to lein-ring anyway, whether implicit dependencies are kosher or not now :-)
16:35	weavejester	Is it my imagination, or was prxml slated for one of the clojure core repos?
16:36	technomancy	cemerick: yep, definitely good to be explicit in this case
16:36	weavejester	I thought data.xml, but that's for emitting clojure.xml-style data.
16:36	TimMc	technomancy: Wouldn't implicit deps fail for lein trampoline?
16:37	cemerick	weavejester: not according to http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
16:37	BostX	guys do you know how to use 'apply' or 'map' together with a java constructor? I wanna do something like:
16:37	BostX	(new #(new Double) [0.1])
16:37	technomancy	TimMc: implicit deps of plugins shouldn't affect trampoline
16:37	BostX	I meant: (map #(new Double) [0.1])
16:37	TimMc	technomancy: The same classpath is used?
16:37	technomancy	TimMc: leiningen's classpath is totally orthogonal to the project
16:37	weavejester	cemerick: Huh.
16:37	TimMc	BostX: Your fn literal needs an arg
16:38	BostX	TimMc, ???
16:38	lazybot	BostX: Oh, absolutely.
16:38	weavejester	I guess data.xml would be okay
16:38	TimMc	BostX: #(Double. %)
16:38	BostX	TimMc, Ok... and if I have a constructor with more that 1 parameter?
16:39	TimMc	BostX: I recommend reading clojure.org/reader
16:39	BostX	TimMc, neither #(MyConstructor % %) nor #(MyConstructor %1 %2)
16:39	BostX	TimMc, works
16:39	TimMc	BostX: That's because you forgot the "." after the constructor name
16:40	TimMc	technomancy: Oh, duh -- you're talking about plugins.
16:41	BostX	TimMc, no not really, i tried both: '.' and 'new' (it was just a typo here on IRC)
16:43	TimMc	BostX: That's why it's important to show the exact code that failed! You should be mapping over multiple collections at a time to get multiple args into that fn.
16:44	BostX	TimMc, OK :)
16:44	BostX	TimMc, (let [foo (map #(com.jjoe64.graphview.GraphView$GraphViewData.) [1 0.4])])
16:45	BostX	TimMc, and the compiler gives me: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class com.jjoe64.graphview.GraphView$GraphViewData (MyFile.clj:89)
16:45	TimMc	&`#(Double.) ;; let's look at what happens when you don't put %1 etc. into a fn literal
16:45	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [] (java.lang.Double.))
16:45	TimMc	^ nullary functions
16:45	TimMc	and in your example code, you're not passing that constructor any arguments
16:46	TimMc	&(map (fn [a b] (+ a b)) [1 2 3] [300 200 100])
16:46	lazybot	⇒ (301 202 103)
16:47	TimMc	BostX: The arity (number of params accepted) of the function you pass to map has to match the number of collections you pass to map.
16:50	BostX	TimMc, the constructor hast 2 parameters:
16:50	BostX	TimMc, this works: (let [foo (com.jjoe64.graphview.GraphView$GraphViewData. 1 0.4)])
16:51	BostX	TimMc, as I told you I just don't know how is the proper syntax if I want to use 'map' or 'apply'
16:52	TimMc	Well, look at my examples above.
16:54	BostX	TimMc, negative. this does not work: (let [foo (map (com.jjoe64.graphview.GraphView$GraphViewData.) [1] [0.4])])
16:54	BostX	TimMc, this neither: (let [foo #(map (com.jjoe64.graphview.GraphView$GraphViewData.) [1] [0.4])])
16:56	tmciver	BostX: You're forgetting the %1 and %2 . . .
16:56	BostX	TimMc, tmciver ... hmm ok, I try %1 %2
16:57	TimMc	BostX: There's no magic -- figure out how the examples I gave you work, then apply your newfound knowledge.
16:57	BostX	TimMc, tmciver aaaaaa!!! this works: (let [foo (map #(com.jjoe64.graphview.GraphView$GraphViewData. %1 %2) [1] [0.4])])
16:58	BostX	thx guys!
17:00	Wraithan	https://github.com/wraithan/zenircbot-clojure/blob/master/src/zenircbot_clojure/core.clj -- Could I get this code critiqued a bit?
17:00	Wraithan	First app written in clojure
17:03	BostX	Wraithan, what zenircbot does?
17:03	muhoo	com.jjoe64.graphview.GraphView$GraphViewData ? wow that's ugly
17:03	BostX	muhoo, do u know anything nicer?
17:04	muhoo	no, but there has to be one, i'm sure.
17:04	muhoo	what's with the $?
17:04	BostX	muhoo, what do u mean with $ ?
17:04	Wraithan	BostX: It is an IRC bot that uses separate services that it communicates with over redis using pub/sub for functionality. That way the core bot can stay alive and services (similar to plugins in most IRC bots) can be stopped, started, and vice versa
17:04	muhoo	GraphView$GraphViewData, the $ in the middle of there
17:05	Wraithan	BostX: http://zenircbot.readthedocs.org/en/latest/services_devel.html#service-model
17:05	brehaut	muhoo: thats part of javasc class name munging; inner classes get a $ as a seperator (for instance)
17:06	miltondsilva	Hi, how does one translate this java code to clojure? http://pastebin.com/N9Msm9gX
17:07	BostX	muhoo, if you have class A { ... class B { ... }} it compiles to A$B.class
17:08	morphling	miltondsilva: ##(doc proxy)
17:08	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which cre... https://refheap.com/paste/808
17:08	amalloy	blargh
17:08	miltondsilva	morphling: thanks ;)
17:08	amalloy	reify rather than proxy if at all possible (and it almost certainly is)
17:09	muhoo	BostX: ok makes sense. java stuff.
17:09	miltondsilva	reify it is ;)
17:10	BostX	milkpost, or you could use proxy but: reify can only implement interfaces. It cannot exted classes (proxy can); reify is directly supported by the host platform
17:10	morphling	oh, yes, reify, if it's an interface, proxy if it's an abstract class
17:11	amalloy	and that looks like apache; they usually use interfaces when it's possible
17:12	miltondsilva	this library is using apache... but it's called jung and that type of ugly think is needed to interact with it
17:12	miltondsilva	thing*
17:14	BostX	muhoo, BTW I find com.jjoe64.graphview.GraphView$GraphViewData quite Ok... for the start
17:26	m0smith	what templating language would you recommend for a web app?
17:26	ibdknox	m0smith: depends on the team
17:26	Raynes	I'm pretty fond of mustache.
17:26	ibdknox	and the scope
17:26	Raynes	A lot of people find Enlive to be to their liking.
17:27	Raynes	Others use hiccup, which is write-html-in-clojure-instead-of-html.
17:27	technomancy	if you aren't working with a designer, I'd use hiccup
17:27	duck1123	I tried using soy templates and found it too much work and went back to hiccup
17:27	ibdknox	+1
17:27	technomancy	it's basically impossible to screw up
17:28	m0smith	I would rather not write html in clojure
17:28	ibdknox	hiccup or stencil
17:28	ibdknox	m0smith: I'd use stencil then (mustache-based)
17:28	rplevy	is there an alternative repo for zookeeper? the maven central one seems to have problems. I don't know exactly what. Lein (maven) downloads it and then reports it being missing.
17:29	muhoo	Raynes: weren't you moving refheap to enlive?
17:29	ibdknox	heh
17:29	muhoo	or did that not work out so wel?
17:29	muhoo	well?
17:30	brehaut	muhoo: careful there, hes bitter about that
17:30	muhoo	sorry
17:30	ibdknox	chuckles
17:30	Raynes	Mustache and Enlive are both excellent for teams with designers who aren't developers.
17:30	Raynes	Because you can keep the HTML separate from the code.
17:30	Raynes	Some people just have TimMc write their html for them.
17:30	Raynes	I'm favoring that solution lately.
17:30	Raynes	Haha
17:30	Raynes	muhoo: I went with mustache.
17:31	muhoo	thanks, good to know.
17:31	Raynes	I had a bug in Enlive and was in a hurry.
17:31	Raynes	Plus, Mustache just feels like a better solution for how RefHeap is designed.
17:31	muhoo	believe me, the purpose of most of mmy life has been to serve as a warning to others
17:31	Raynes	I see how Enlive is so well-liked though -- it would be excellent if you built from the ground-up with it or for scraping and stuff.
17:31	muhoo	so if you went with enlive, and found out it is... not what you wanted, that's very helpful to know.
17:32	Raynes	Yeah, that's generally how it worked out.
17:32	Raynes	There was some cursing and stuff mixed in there too.
17:32	brehaut	some. heh
17:32	muhoo	if i got bitter about every blind alley i took, wasting years of my life and tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars, i'd have kille myself decades ago
17:32	ibdknox	muhoo: http://mustache.github.com/mustache.5.html
17:33	m0smith	thanks for the input
17:33	ibdknox	the clojure impl to use is stenvil
17:33	ibdknox	stencil*
17:33	Raynes	And the reason it is the impl to use is because dsantiago is a nut about performance and you can rest assured he has made it as fast as possible. :p
17:34	muhoo	i've seen this before i think, maybe in ruby
17:34	ibdknox	it's used in many languages
17:34	technomancy	problem is moustache is also a routing lib in clojure
17:34	muhoo	that's why i was confused when you said moustache!
17:35	muhoo	yes, i thought moustache was an alternative to compojure
17:35	m0smith	what about something like velocity?
17:35	brehaut	muhoo: it is
17:35	brehaut	but its a different moustache
17:35	muhoo	name collision! call the police.
17:35	ibdknox	mustache
17:35	ibdknox	not moustache
17:35	muhoo	must ache
17:35	brehaut	hah yes
17:36	brehaut	clojure is the salvidor dali of programming languages: many moustaches to choose from
17:36	muhoo	moustache and mustache must exchange insurance information, license, and registration.
17:36	weavejester	A while ago I wrote Comb, a fast ERB-like templating language.
17:37	weavejester	It has only two followers on the GitHub repo though, so it's not well known!
17:38	ibdknox	weavejester: huh.. do you use it?
17:38	muhoo	brehaut: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXT2E9Ccc8A
17:38	weavejester	ibdknox: I wrote it for creating project skeletons generation
17:38	ibdknox	I see
17:38	weavejester	ibdknox: But I haven't got around to writing the plugin that was going to use it :)
17:38	ibdknox	haha
17:39	ibdknox	weavejester: lol that's so simple... well done
17:42	dnolen	tscheibl: that patch look nice, will give it a spin soon.
17:42	tscheibl	tscheibl: ok :)
17:43	tscheibl	talking to myself again...
17:43	tscheibl	dnolen: ok :)
17:46	rplevy	is there something like repository-exclusions for lein? looking for it in the source...
17:47	dsantiago	Funny enough, when I was writing stencil, the placeholder name was dali.
17:47	dsantiago	Also, I love you guys so much.
17:50	technomancy	rplevy: lein help sample \| grep exclusions
17:52	m0smith	stencil or clostache?
17:52	tmciver	technomancy: Ahh, didn't know about sample; it's not listed with 'lein help'
17:52	technomancy	uh oh; it should be
17:52	m0smith	The mustache site refers to clostache
17:52	technomancy	tmciver: yeah, it is in 1.7
17:52	ibdknox	m0smith: stencil
17:53	m0smith	ibdknox: porque?
17:53	tmciver	technomancy: oh yeah, under the 'see also' part.
17:53	tmciver	my bad
17:53	technomancy	tmciver: lein2 will let you do "lein sample" with partial aliases
17:54	ibdknox	m0smith: it correctly implements the mustache spec, fewer bugs, and better maintained
17:54	dsantiago	m0smith: Not an unsore spot for me!
17:54	tmciver	technomancy: I haven't been following the lein 2 dev that closely; what's partial aliases?
17:54	m0smith	compujure I assume then
17:54	technomancy	tmciver: it's like partial application, but for aliases
17:54	dsantiago	http://librelist.com/browser//mustache/2011/5/25/mustache-in-clojure/#59e582f3c353c5b9a6eb766eb0bc028c
17:54	technomancy	(partial my-function "argument1")
17:54	technomancy	etc
17:55	tmciver	technomancy: but that works with lein plugins somehow?
17:55	technomancy	yeah, works for any task
17:55	ibdknox	m0smith: huh?
17:56	m0smith	dsantiago: thanks. I will give it a look
17:56	tmciver	technomancy: so you mean if a task takes several 'args' you can do a partial with some of the args?
17:56	technomancy	:aliases {"launch" ["run" "-m" "myproject.main"]} ; in project.clj
17:56	technomancy	yup
17:56	m0smith	ibdknox: for some reason it came out in spanish: porque == why
17:56	technomancy	it's the leiningen 2 feature about which I am the most unreasonably excited
17:56	ibdknox	lol
17:56	ibdknox	I know, and I answered you
17:57	tmciver	technomancy: ha! cool.
17:57	weavejester	technomancy: Oh, you're putting in aliases then?
17:57	technomancy	weavejester: aliases in defproject, yeah
17:57	muhoo	how would a partial alias work?
17:57	weavejester	technomancy: Ah, awesome
17:57	m0smith	ibdknow: oh. I assume compojure is the way to go for a web application
17:57	tmciver	technomancy: are there docs for lein 2 yet?
17:58	weavejester	m0smith: ibdknox would probably recommend Noir ;)
17:58	technomancy	tmciver: the readme, plugin guide, and tutorial are upgraded
17:58	ibdknox	haha
17:58	technomancy	tmciver: the sample project.clj isn't, and I'd like to have a general "upgrading" doc beyond just lein-precate
17:58	ibdknox	weavejester: probably ;)
17:58	technomancy	muhoo: see above with "launch"
17:58	callen	is there a Clojure web framework that doesn't by default inline templates into the code/controllers and instead uses templates like Django or Rails?
17:59	ibdknox	m0smith: http://webnoir.org/
17:59	ibdknox	callen: you can do that with Noir?
17:59	callen	that is, the template shouldn't be a bunch of Clojure macros, it should be textual HTML getting injected.
17:59	brehaut_	callen: most of then ?
17:59	callen	most of what I saw was Compojure-esque
17:59	Kowboy	I haven't used Noir for anything other than to experiment, but I liked it
17:59	dsantiago	You can usually use whatever templates you want.
17:59	weavejester	m0smith: Noir is probably better if you're just starting out - Compojure is a little less structured.
17:59	callen	the examples seemed eager to come off as clever.
17:59	ibdknox	callen: ?
17:59	simonadameit	hey
18:00	weavejester	I don't think any Clojure web framework mandates a template framework.
18:00	simonadameit	i've got a question regarding the range function
18:00	ibdknox	except maybe conjure?
18:00	tmciver	technomancy: but the stuff at https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen is for lein 1.7?
18:00	ibdknox	I don't remember
18:00	callen	ibdknox: http://webnoir.org/ Your examples are all using Compojure or returning raw text.
18:00	weavejester	ibdknox: Yeah, I was thinking about that too. I'm not sure.
18:00	technomancy	tmciver: just the installation instructions
18:00	dnolen	simonadameit: you can always ask away
18:00	simonadameit	how do I specify a start, but not the end of a range (i.e. infinity)
18:00	technomancy	tmciver: everything else on the master branch is 2.x
18:00	ibdknox	callen: I think you're confused as to what compojure is :)
18:00	tmciver	technomancy: ah, OK
18:01	weavejester	callen: Do you mean Hiccup? Compojure is a routing library. Hiccup is a HTML-generating library
18:01	ibdknox	callen: that's hiccup, and I would argue hiccup is very clear, not clever
18:01	ibdknox	callen: either way though, you get to use whatever you want :)
18:01	callen	sure, but that's besides the point.
18:01	callen	a designer can't write clojure
18:01	dnolen	simonadameit: (range start)
18:01	simonadameit	i tried (range 1 :infinity) but that barfs :(
18:01	technomancy	hiccup is way obvious
18:01	callen	I need to be handle to hand off data to a relatively plain HTML template and have a designer wrap around that.
18:01	callen	designers cannot code.
18:01	dnolen	simonadameit: many functions have multiple aritys
18:01	dnolen	,(doc range)
18:01	technomancy	callen: if you want designers writing the html, you want enlive
18:01	ibdknox	callen: sure, stencil, comb, enlive, whatever
18:01	dsantiago	callen: So have your pick from enlive, tinsel, mustache… what else?
18:01	simonadameit	dnolen: yeah, but _end_ is the first argument according to the doc
18:02	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
18:02	brehaut_	callen: to be fair to designers, a lot of so called programmers ive met couldnt either
18:02	emezeske	callen: wow, that's not a sweeping generalization
18:02	technomancy	if you want to decide on the structure and have the designers just handle styling, hiccup is fine
18:02	callen	technomancy: that's still in Clojure.
18:02	callen	emezeske: I'm talking about my specific circumstances.
18:02	technomancy	o_O
18:02	simonadameit	dnolen: in case you give only one argument, its the end
18:02	technomancy	callen: enlive templates are 100% HTML
18:02	emezeske	callen: ah
18:02	callen	technomancy: https://github.com/cgrand/enlive
18:02	ibdknox	still a sweeping generalization ;)
18:02	dnolen	simonadameit: oh yeah ... just use drop
18:02	callen	I don't need to make a sweeping generalization
18:02	dnolen	(drop n (range))
18:02	lynaghk``	simonadameit: (drop n (range))
18:03	lynaghk``	jinx david.
18:03	callen	I'm dealing with a specific situation and I need plain HTML templates from files like Django and Rails.
18:03	technomancy	callen: the transformations are in Clojure; the templates are not.
18:03	weavejester	I need to start coding my hiccup/bootstrap library this weekend.
18:03	callen	technomancy: I don't want any template logic in Clojure, period.
18:03	ibdknox	weavejester: hiccup/bootstrap?
18:03	brehaut_	if you are going to complain about cleverness, enlive has far more of that than hiccup
18:03	callen	technomancy: I just want to hand-off a hash-map of data to the template.
18:03	simonadameit	yeah… fortunately in my case its not (drop some-really-big-number (range)) :)
18:03	lynaghk``	weavejester: bootstrap as in getting started kit?
18:03	ibdknox	callen: stencil
18:03	technomancy	rails and django both mix logic and presentation last I checked
18:03	callen	brehaut_: hiccup has the document in Clojure.
18:03	simonadameit	still it feels akward the range function
18:03	weavejester	Bootstrap as in: http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
18:04	callen	Stencil looks close enough.
18:04	brehaut_	callen: nevertheless, hiccup is way way simpler than enlive.
18:04	callen	brehaut_: does. not. matter.
18:04	callen	at all
18:04	lynaghk``	weavejester: what are you coding, exactly?
18:04	brehaut_	but you were just complaining about it being too clever‽
18:04	callen	ibdknox: thank you.
18:04	lancepantz	so which http client are all the cool kids using today? clj-http?
18:04	ibdknox	brehaut_: not worth it
18:04	brehaut_	lancepantz: i think so, and dakrone has the central repo i think
18:05	ibdknox	lancepantz: yeah
18:05	callen	brehaut_: what is concentually simple, simple to implement, simple to understand are all three different things.
18:05	lancepantz	yeah, i'm looking at his fork
18:05	lancepantz	thanks dudes
18:05	m0smith	ibdknox: noir and stencil are a good fit then?
18:05	callen	brehaut_: I need limited exposure and simple to understand. The person editing the template shouldn't see anything more than {{variable}} and the HTML.
18:05	muhoo	i enjoyed stuart hollaway's presentation on "simple"
18:05	ibdknox	m0smith: very :)
18:05	muhoo	from blip.tv
18:05	weavejester	lynaghk``: Well, as a simple example, (button-to "/bar" "foo") might produce <a class="btn" href="/bar">foo</a>
18:05	callen	brehaut_: the more isolated from the code, and less powerful, the better.
18:05	muhoo	i.e. "simple just means not complex". wfm
18:05	m0smith	ibdknox: thanks
18:06	dnolen	simonadameit: it may seem weird at first but range is often used for control
18:06	brehaut_	callen: then stop raging and go look at enlive like you were suggested. there is absolutely _no_ clojure in the templates. they are pure HTML.
18:06	devn	speaking of enlive and hiccup...scraping with enlive... are there other solutions already packaged up and ready to go for scraping by xpath or selector?
18:06	weavejester	lynaghk``: Or (icon :search) might produce <i class="icon-search"></i>
18:06	lynaghk``	weavejester: ah, so you want to wrap bootstrap's classes to make a kind of web 2.0 DSL in hiccup?
18:06	rplevy	technomancy: neat, thanks
18:06	callen	brehaut_: I'm not raging, I'm clearing up a lack of perspective on your part.
18:06	lynaghk``	er, not in hiccup. In this separate project.
18:06	brehaut_	goodbye callen
18:07	technomancy	callen: it sounds like you don't know what enlive does
18:07	weavejester	lynaghk``: Exactly right.
18:07	callen	technomancy: I have to go off what the README.md says.
18:07	devn	can't we all just...get along?
18:07	ibdknox	haha
18:07	callen	technomancy: if I see transformations in Clojure, it's a no-go.
18:07	ibdknox	apparently not
18:07	emezeske	devn: what fun would that be?
18:07	technomancy	"It's not designer-friendly" is a great reason to use everything that's not enlive
18:07	muhoo	really? a templating flamewar?
18:07	muhoo	can't we just argue about emacs vs vi, bsd vs linux, mac vs windoze, etc?
18:07	emezeske	muhoo: those are old hat
18:08	weavejester	lynaghk``: I'd like to be able to produce nice-looking bootstrap pages in a few lines of Clojure.
18:08	ibdknox	technomancy: remember the communism fiasco? no value in arguing
18:08	lynaghk``	weavejester: speaking of hiccup, do you have a timeline on switching over to that refactored rendering branch you pointed out to me earlier? I took a fair bit of that and shoved it into some CLJS stuff I'm working on and am getting into the CLJ side of things this afternoon
18:08	callen	muhoo: it's not a flamewar, I don't care what other people use.
18:08	technomancy	ibdknox: oh dang.
18:08	devn	callen: i do, but only because sometimes they're right and im wrong.
18:08	callen	muhoo: there are some specific limitations with my use-case and getting people to stop recommending what isn't workable is proving irritating.
18:08	lancepantz	i wanna jump in there
18:08	ibdknox	lol
18:08	lynaghk``	weavejester: hmm. I'm still using HAML for all of my precompiled-markup needs.
18:08	muhoo	http://www.google.com/url?q=http://xkcd.com/386/&sa=U&ei=0cZGT6TJOYyMigLI5t3bDQ&ved=0CBEQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNG2-piMB_qrSuMnwb7pciErzye8eQ
18:08	ibdknox	lancepantz: do it, it'll only make it better ;)
18:08	lancepantz	just write a service in clojure and make all the front end dudes write a spa in javascript
18:09	muhoo	damn you gogle
18:09	weavejester	lynaghk``: It'll be a while. I'm first putting out Hiccup 1.0.0, which factors out the compiler ready to be replaced.
18:09	callen	lancepantz: that's quite doable actually.
18:09	devn	i want a spa in javascript -- a day spa
18:09	callen	lancepantz: I could do noir -> json -> bootstrap.
18:09	muhoo	http://xkcd.com/386
18:09	devn	rimshot
18:09	callen	lancepantz: only problem, the designers in question can't write JavaScript either.
18:09	Kowboy	is anyone using sass for your css?
18:09	lancepantz	ah
18:09	lynaghk``	Kowboy, I am
18:09	callen	lancepantz: they can't code, they can't do JS, they can really only do CSS and HTML at best.
18:09	weavejester	lynaghk``: But before people can use Hiccup 1.0, they'll probably need Ring 1.1, because Ring 1.0 depends on Hiccup 0.3.8
18:09	lancepantz	well, they suck
18:09	lancepantz	:)
18:09	devn	Kowboy: i use me some haml and sass
18:09	lancepantz	hehe
18:09	callen	lancepantz: yeah. yeah...doing my best here.
18:10	lancepantz	na, i guess design is a different job than front end
18:10	weavejester	lynaghk``: And before Ring 1.1, I need to release Lein-Ring 0.6.0 for Leiningen 1.7 and above.
18:10	pbostrom	ibdknox: how does crate use the crateids that it generates?
18:10	callen	lancepantz: basically yes, and I'm trying to bridge the gap there.
18:10	technomancy	weavejester: untangling your dependency graph sounds like the kind of thing you'd use core.logic for
18:10	m0smith	thanks all ttfn
18:10	lancepantz	i wonder what doing a SPA in clojurescript would be like
18:10	callen	lancepantz: but it requires that designers be able to edit a simple HTML template and hit refresh.
18:10	lynaghk``	weavejester: Ah, fair enough. I'm using hiccup outside of the standard sort of stack, so I've been just copy-paste-hackin' on code, but I'd like to keep things from diverging too much.
18:10	callen	lancepantz: clojurescript with the closure compiler seems like a good stack for a SPA to me.
18:11	weavejester	technomancy: Pretty much :) - I have too many projects.
18:11	ibdknox	pbostrom: it allows you to use ($ some-partial) among other things
18:11	Kowboy	spa?
18:11	lancepantz	Kowboy: single page application
18:11	Kowboy	ah, thanks
18:11	lancepantz	Kowboy: essentially a pure js client for your clojure service
18:11	weavejester	Does jQuery work in Clojurescript yet with optimization?
18:11	callen	Kowboy: hypothetically nicer to use, but is harder to get right.
18:11	lancepantz	no rails django php shit in the middle
18:12	devn	callen: you could look at soy templates maybe?
18:12	callen	weavejester: not officially, but I'm sure people have futzed around with it.
18:12	Kowboy	I don't think jQuery will work unless it is compatible with the Closure optimization standards
18:12	lynaghk``	weavejester: simple optimizations, yes. Advanced optimizations not really, because of how jQuery is structured.
18:12	ibdknox	Kowboy: http://github.com/ibdknox/jayq
18:12	devn	callen: https://github.com/levand/clj-soy
18:12	weavejester	Kowboy: Yeah, but I thought there was some talk about jQuery/Closure compatability...
18:12	clj_newb	Hi
18:13	callen	devn: looking, those would work if I was doing an SPA I think.
18:13	devn	clj_newb: hi!
18:13	weavejester	clj_newb: Hi
18:13	ibdknox	weavejester: http://github.com/ibdnkox/jayq
18:13	weavejester	ibdknox: 404...
18:13	devn	ibdknox: same
18:13	Kowboy	hmm...I just remember Rich Hickey saying that only libraries compatible with Closure could be optimized
18:13	clj_newb	clojure.xml, method parse is outputting this exception No matching method found: parse for class com.sun.org.apache.xerces.internal.jaxp.SAXParserImpl
18:13	ibdknox	whoops
18:13	ibdknox	http://github/ibdknox/jayq
18:13	clj_newb	Any idea? Google didn't help much
18:13	ibdknox	primarily because I can't type
18:14	ibdknox	once more with feeling: https://github.com/ibdknox/jayq
18:14	weavejester	ibdknox: You missed out the .com that time :)
18:14	Kowboy	lol
18:14	weavejester	ibdknox: Ah, I see it now :)
18:14	Kowboy	ibdknox, you're a freak (the good kind)
18:14	ibdknox	for fun in CLJS: http://www.chris-granger.com/projects/cljs/
18:15	ibdknox	Kowboy: lol, there's a good kind of freak? ;)
18:15	Kowboy	I seriously need a Clojure job
18:15	Kowboy	yes, and you are it
18:15	weavejester	ibdknox: That looks pretty interesting
18:15	devn	your Clojure job is to write libraries for free
18:15	devn	and then maintain them
18:15	devn	;)
18:16	ibdknox	weavejester: that + crate (dom'd hiccup) is awesome
18:16	Kowboy	OK, where do I start?
18:16	callen	devn ibdknox lancepantz thanks for the suggestions. Might say fuck it and go SPA.
18:16	devn	Check out the last dozen or so github.com URLs in this channel -- that's a lot of what's buzzing in the community in general
18:16	devn	Kowboy: ^
18:17	lancepantz	callen: np
18:17	devn	Also Kowboy, overtone is really fun and the limit to what you build there is really just your imagination
18:17	devn	gotta run, ciao all
18:17	lynaghk``	callen: I've done a singlepage iPad application entirely in ClojureScript (+ Twitter bootstrap); feel free to drop me a line if you want
18:17	devn	callen: you're definitely welcome
18:17	Kowboy	I just discovered overtone today
18:17	callen	lynaghk``: ooooh. Cool, I've been doing some stuff with bootstrap lately anyway. Thanks!
18:18	lynaghk``	callen: it's a rad stack, if you're willing to patch the ClojureScript compiler now and again =P
18:18	Kowboy	anyone familiar with Eve Online?
18:19	ibdknox	Kowboy: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/20/overtone-and-clojurescript/
18:19	ibdknox	overtone + cljs
18:19	ibdknox	= loads of fun
18:19	Kowboy	I'm thinking about building a Clojure+CLJS site on top of the Eve API
18:19	muhoo	+1 for the overtone+cljs SPA demo
18:19	gtrak``	ibdknox: pretty awesome
18:20	callen	Kowboy: I used to play it ages ago. I have a 40-something million SP char on ice.
18:20	ibdknox	gtrak``: the little app? It was a fun thing to build
18:20	Kowboy	well, the API is REST-based XML payload (GET only)
18:21	gtrak``	yea, it's sweet
18:21	gtrak``	and just a good demo
18:21	Kowboy	but built into the response message is a cache time. The server won't send new data and sometimes will return an error if you try to hit it within that time
18:22	Kowboy	so one thing I was thinking about building was a caching proxy with pluggable caching strategies and expiration strategies
18:22	gtrak``	ibdknox: you coming to the Unjam?
18:23	ibdknox	gtrak``: is that at clojure west?
18:23	Kowboy	I would need to proxy the API anyway because of cross-site access
18:23	gtrak``	yea
18:23	ibdknox	sure :)
18:23	callen	Kowboy: I distinctly recall disliking their API.
18:23	ibdknox	presuming I haven't signed myself up to do something during then lol
18:23	gtrak``	right :-)
18:24	gtrak``	I've been working on an accordion synth just for the occasion
18:24	gtrak``	with a grid and midi-keyboard
18:24	ibdknox	I know very little about overtone sadly
18:24	ibdknox	just enough to be annoying :D
18:25	ibdknox	the unjam would probably be a great way to learn though
18:25	gtrak``	yea, I'm going to have to learn all the sound parts to generate goodness, but so far I have just the i/o working
18:25	muhoo	i'm really curious to hear the music that gets made with overtone
18:25	ibdknox	muhoo: it can be quite impressive
18:25	muhoo	oggs/mp3s?
18:26	pbostrom	ibdknox: one thing about the overtone demo: the overtone piano sample is a dead link, this seems to kill the process for me: http://www.ericmhobbs.com/Blackhole/music-backup/MIS_Stereo_Piano.zip
18:26	ibdknox	muhoo: did you watch sam's talk?
18:26	muhoo	no
18:26	muhoo	the one at the 2011 conj?
18:26	ibdknox	yeah, watch that
18:27	ibdknox	pbostrom: huh really? It was working for folks the other day :( Might want to ask on the overtone list
18:27	Kowboy	ibdknox, you using Noir to power your website?
18:27	ibdknox	Kowboy: which one?
18:27	Kowboy	http://www.chris-granger.com
18:27	ibdknox	my blog is jekyll, though I'll probably write a noir static generator at some point
18:27	ibdknox	http://webnoir.org and http://sqlkorma.com are both on Noir
18:28	ibdknox	https://www.readyforzero.com/ is also on Noir
18:28	muhoo	so far i have to say, in terms of webdev, i can't see any reason not to just use all of ibdknox libraries as the default stack
18:29	muhoo	fetch, noir, jayq, etc
18:30	Kowboy	that's why I'm calling him a freak (the good kind)
18:30	sritchie	have you guys ever seen this from clojure 1.2.1?
18:30	sritchie	Caused by: java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: getCopyOfContextMap
18:30	Kowboy	i.e., it's really great work
18:30	m0smith	ibdknox: do you have info regarding deploying a noir app to tomcat?
18:30	sritchie	on any call to use or require
18:30	pbostrom	ibdknox: looks like someone has already posted to the group
18:30	ibdknox	m0smith: make sure you require your views explicitly and then just use lein-ring to generate an uberwar.
18:30	sritchie	ah, probably a pallet issue
18:31	ibdknox	m0smith: then you're good to go :)
18:31	ibdknox	there are a few other production ones out there too, don't remember them off the top of my head though
18:32	m0smith	ibdknox: What does "require your views explictly" mean?
18:32	zakwilson	Hmm... readyforzero.com users pay off their debt lots faster than average people. I wonder if that's because people who use a web app designed to help them pay off their debt are more serious about getting out of debt.
18:33	ibdknox	m0smith: in server.clj there will be a server/load-views call. Instead of that just do (:require [my.view] ..) in your ns decl
18:33	m0smith	ok
18:33	ibdknox	zakwilson: it's controlled against people who signup and then don't use it
18:34	ibdknox	but it's true that you can't make a statement about causation there, it's merely correlated
18:34	zakwilson	ibdknox: I don't think that invalidates the point, which is not to say that the service isn't useful (I haven't looked)
18:34	ibdknox	anecdotally it does make a difference for those who were referred to our site and would not have gone there on their own
18:35	zakwilson	Anyway, no criticism intended.
18:35	ibdknox	I certainly didn't take it that way. I said the same thing when they made the graph ;)
18:35	zakwilson	I've just trained myself to spot suspicious marketing claims.
18:36	ibdknox	I'm forever the skeptic
18:36	ibdknox	lol
18:36	amalloy	ibdknox: i don't think i believe that. can you prove it?
18:37	callen	zakwilson: skepjure?
18:37	devn	ibdknox: man, i have to say I hadn't looked into Pinot. I remember when it was in its infancy but wasn't following along at home. Breaking it up into these modules is really nice. Also, I really like your website. Very classy
18:37	lancepantz	dakrone: you around?
18:37	dakrone	lancepantz: yea, what's up?
18:37	ibdknox	amalloy: I'm pretty sure I have transcripts of me from when I was young being skeptical. Proving future intent is hard, though based on the trend... ;)
18:38	ibdknox	devn: thanks! designed it last saturday. I'm pretty happy with the results
18:38	zakwilson	I just didn't like that Clojure was on the JVM.
18:38	lancepantz	dakrone: Raynes was just talking to me about using cheshire over clj-json
18:38	lancepantz	i've been maintaing clj-json, but it looks like cheshire is more complete and a wrapper around jackson as well?
18:39	dakrone	lancepantz: yea, cheshire was originally based off of clj-json because Mark wanted to give up maintaining it
18:39	Kowboy	Will I get spanked for this? http://java.dzone.com/polls/which-jvm-language-top-0
18:39	ibdknox	I was just interested in Clojure because it seemed so different. I'd never used a lisp and was obviously very entrenched in the C# world :)
18:39	dakrone	lancepantz: to have faster dev cycles and more active support
18:39	devn	Kowboy: I don't see why.
18:40	Kowboy	darn
18:40	lancepantz	dakrone: have you seen the coercions stuff i added to clj-json
18:40	simonadameit	can i destructure a sequence in a function argument vector like [[x xs]] ?
18:41	ibdknox	simonadameit: yes
18:41	devn	there are limits though, right ibdknox?
18:41	ibdknox	though you probably mean [x & xs]
18:41	dakrone	lancepantz: yes, although I did some timings and it added a lot of overhead
18:41	ibdknox	rather [[x & xs]]
18:41	Scriptor	simonadameit: [x & xs]
18:42	Scriptor	specifically, (defn first [[x & xs]] x)
18:42	simonadameit	ibdknox: no, actually the first argument to the function is a sequence and I want to desctructure that
18:42	ibdknox	yep [[x & xs] other-args]
18:42	zakwilson	,(let [[x &xs] [1 2 3]] [x xs])
18:42	simonadameit	ah, ok thanks!
18:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: xs in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:42	zakwilson	,(let [[x & xs] [1 2 3]] [x xs])
18:42	clojurebot	[1 (2 3)]
18:43	zakwilson	All clear now?
18:43	simonadameit	yes, thanks! :)
18:43	dakrone	lancepantz: although I think I did the timings with the postwalk version of the coercions, so it's probably faster now
18:44	lancepantz	dakrone: okay, i'll take a look at it and build out a branch if i need it different
18:44	lancepantz	then i'll just mark clj-json as deprecated
18:45	ibdknox	more unification!
18:45	lancepantz	dakrone: i kinda like the clj-json name better than cheshire, any interest in a rename or is that silly?
18:45	ibdknox	/win
18:45	dakrone	lancepantz: you could do coercions with Cheshire's custom encoding by writing your own encoding rules in the encoders
18:45	lancepantz	ibdknox: yeah man, us geni guys roll our one, then get sick of maintaining it and give up :)
18:45	ibdknox	haha
18:46	lancepantz	to be fair, we built out our stack two years ago
18:46	ibdknox	lancepantz: maintaining things sucks. ;)
18:47	hiredman	it sure does
18:47	dakrone	lancepantz: I'm partial to Cheshire, personally, but could be persuaded otherwise if more people desired a name change
18:47	lancepantz	dakrone: i don't care, just wanted to make it an option if you were interested
18:47	m0smith	ibdknox: Does noir provide a ring handler?
18:48	dakrone	lancepantz: feel free to ping me if you have any issues with it
18:48	ibdknox	m0smith: (server/gen-handler ..) http://webnoir.org/tutorials/others
18:48	m0smith	thanks again
18:49	lancepantz	dakrone: will do, it'll be a few days probably
18:52	ibdknox	technomancy: you are like king on github. I was curious how many total repo watchers you had - it's currently 4707
18:53	technomancy	ibdknox: yeah, I have no idea why people follow stuff like my dotfiles
18:53	technomancy	it's like "congratulations, you get to hear about the fact that I'm using a new color theme"
18:53	ibdknox	haha
18:53	brehaut_	thats the most important news ever though
18:54	ibdknox	seriously, how're we gonna code like you if we're using the wrong theme?
18:54	Raynes	dakrone, lancepantz: Yay for unification!
18:54	callen	technomancy: my dotfiles repo is one of the only ones that has followers. :(
18:54	callen	technomancy: I think people follow it because I have a really large .emacs and .emacs.d
18:55	technomancy	seems like that would be more interesting as reference material
18:55	technomancy	OTOH github doesn't really have a good way to say "I want to come back to this but not get fed every update"
18:55	technomancy	I guess you would use regular bookmarking services for that
18:56	brehaut_	would it be useful for a clojure syntax highlighter brush to support ignoring 'user=>' at the starts of lines ?
18:56	ibdknox	yeah
18:58	weavejester	I hate Java keystores and truststores so much.
18:58	callen	technomancy: they're fortunate that my Emacs setup is very old and very stable, so they don't get bugged very often.
18:58	muhoo	thanks, sam aaron is a very funny, animated presenter. many lulz in there, and a solid overview of overtone.
18:58	callen	paredit is the only thing that's changed in like half a year for the most part.
18:58	callen	and yasnippet.
18:58	Raynes	I change everything every few months.
18:59	arohner	I don't suppose anyone has a library for serializing fns?
18:59	Raynes	I've changed my emacs setup so radically this time that it's Vim.
18:59	callen	Raynes: I used to, but I don't need to anymore.
18:59	technomancy	arohner: catch: https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
19:00	weavejester	arohner: I wrote one for Ruby, once… but not for Clojure :)
19:00	arohner	technomancy: how safe is this?
19:00	technomancy	arohner: not safe at all
19:01	technomancy	arohner: it was written by a swarm of 8 developers or so pairing over coffee shop wifi during a seajure meeting
19:03	technomancy	if that doesn't make you nervous, go for it
19:03	arohner	ha. does coffeeshop wifi lead to design problems?
19:03	technomancy	dunno; I've found coffee to produce better results than beer.
19:05	TimMc	dakrone: I assume "Cheshire" is because of SMILE?
19:05	Raynes	TimMc: It's because he has a fetish for mat hatters.
19:06	callen	technomancy: ditto @ coffee > beer.
19:07	Scriptor	well, code quality isn't the greatest with beer
19:07	Scriptor	although I wonder if the writer's mantra of "write drunk, edit sober" works
19:08	lucian	there's an xkcd that delves into the science of it
19:14	ibdknox	new ring?
19:14	weavejester	ibdknox: 1.1 snapshot
19:14	ibdknox	ah
19:15	lancepantz	i believe you're referring to the "Ballmer Peak"
19:15	lancepantz	lucian: ^
19:15	lancepantz	"remember window me?"
19:15	ibdknox	heh
19:15	lancepantz	*windows
19:15	ibdknox	windows CE, ME, NT = windows cement
19:15	lancepantz	lol
19:16	ibdknox	says the guy who worked for MS :D
19:16	muhoo	my greatest fear is that wince will take over phones
19:16	lancepantz	dude, the new windows phones are pretty slick
19:16	TimMc	ibdknox: I have no doubt that just about everyone at MS hates all but the current version.
19:16	lucian	muhoo: don't worry, it's all .net now
19:16	ibdknox	actually, as hard as people are on MSFT outside of the company, the employees are WAY hasher
19:16	ibdknox	harsher*
19:16	TimMc	s/at MS/in any development house/
19:17	ibdknox	yeah
19:17	TimMc	because you have to maintain that shit
19:18	TimMc	The real question is how many people in the OS division personally dislike the current product. :-P
19:18	ibdknox	quite a few
19:19	muhoo	lancepantz: i guess if i wanted slick i'd get an iThing. freedom's more important to me, so i'm very happy with my CM7.1 with almost all open source apps and no google apps. :-)
19:19	lancepantz	muhoo: ahh, you're one of "those" :)
19:19	muhoo	yes, i am
19:20	ibdknox	I have a WP7
19:20	technomancy	freetards represent! =D
19:20	ibdknox	and I had an iphone before that
19:20	lancepantz	the computing equivalent of vegans
19:20	lucian	but there aren't any decent <4" qwerty phones with an unlocked bootloader
19:20	ibdknox	I like the WP7 UI a lot more
19:21	muhoo	my old G1 had an awesome keyboard
19:21	muhoo	alas, the one on my G2 sucks, but at least it has one.
19:22	lucian	muhoo: i like my motorola milestone, but it's old
19:22	lucian	technomancy: i can type very fast on my phoe
19:22	zakwilson	And accurately, I see.
19:22	muhoo	:-)
19:23	lucian	laptop, in the dark, on my side :)
19:23	zakwilson	I think a major problem with onscreen keyboards is that they take up a lot of screen real estate that could be used to display the text you're entering.
19:23	ibdknox	lucian: excuses are for the weak.
19:24	zakwilson	I could swear I had something to say to ibdknox about one of his libraries, but I can't remember it now.
19:24	lucian	zakwilson: indeed
19:24	zakwilson	I don't think it was bad.
19:24	TimMc	Alas, poor lucian, we knew him w-
19:24	TimMc	hm
19:24	TimMc	We didn't know him well.
19:24	TimMc	Alas, poor lucian, we knew his hostmask.
19:25	ibdknox	zakwilson: they're ok. I've heard rails is better, you might want to try it out ;)
19:25	brehaut_	rails?
19:25	brehaut_	your out of touch
19:25	muhoo	hhe
19:25	brehaut_	node
19:25	muhoo	hahaha
19:25	zakwilson	ibdknox: I'll get right on that. This whole "simple" thing Clojure advocates is overrated anyway.
19:25	ibdknox	oh sorry, node
19:25	ibdknox	I've had good experiences with node myself
19:26	muhoo	http://hipstergrammers.tumblr.com
19:26	ibdknox	zakwilson: yeah.. simple means less features... it must suck.
19:26	lucian	node is ok, twisted for js mostly done right
19:26	callen	node is garbage.
19:26	ibdknox	lol
19:26	muhoo	brehaut_: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwxg1u1HSG1r95ui7o1_500.jpg
19:27	zakwilson	And I keep thinking things like "why does this automagically make a method when it could just be a key in a map?".
19:27	brehaut_	muhoo: wow.
19:28	callen	Node is single-threaded callback spaghetti failure. I'll take my SMP Erlang, Clojure or straight Java/Netty, kthxbai.
19:28	ibdknox	I rewrote my node app into 40% the size of the node one and it was 3 orders of magnitude faster
19:28	Chousuke	heh
19:28	muhoo	ibdknox: which app?
19:28	ibdknox	http://typewire.io
19:28	lucian	callen: it's missing deferreds, yes
19:28	callen	ibdknox: give me a type signature here, node => clojure \| size * 0.40, speed * 10^3?
19:28	Chousuke	I'm trying to figure out node.js at eh moment actually
19:28	callen	lucian: it's missing brains and a purpose for existing.
19:29	lucian	no, not that. with CPS or deferreds it's ok
19:29	lucian	other than all the js, of course
19:29	Chousuke	doing a blog engine/something for a course with it and coffeescript :P
19:30	callen	I don't mind coffeescript on the front-end at all.
19:30	muhoo	http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwvn8xE2ye1r95ui7o1_500.jpg
19:30	ibdknox	callen: not sure I know what you're asking for? the size difference had to do with removing callbacks and ridiculous levels of nesting, the speed difference had to do with the hotspotter
19:30	zakwilson	ibdknox: http://www.typewire.io/event/d5893
19:30	Chousuke	haven't quite yet been hit by all the asynchronicity in node.js
19:30	callen	and I think things like backbone and ember are doing a lot for web development.
19:30	muhoo	and with that, fun meter's pegged.
19:30	callen	but node.js is garbage.
19:30	brehaut_	http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM
19:30	ibdknox	zakwilson: lol
19:30	callen	ibdknox: so, pretty much what I expected then.
19:30	callen	ibdknox: the callback spaghetti is horrific.
19:30	zakwilson	I've never seen the appeal of node.
19:31	technomancy	http://tinyurl.com/7j3k86p
19:31	brehaut_	its the young kids version of cobol on cogs
19:31	ibdknox	callen: yeah it was ridiculous for something as simple as it was
19:31	zakwilson	I've never used it or read much about it. It just struck me as a bad idea right off the bat.
19:31	Chousuke	heh
19:31	muhoo	callen: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwvn4i6SBz1r95ui7o1_500.jpg
19:31	callen	zakwilson: it's not faster than anything, it's not more efficient/faster to make things with, it's not easier to understand, it doesn't have more libraries or support than anything, it's a failure in every category that is worth gauging.
19:31	technomancy	clojurebot: javascript is beautiful, you're just too conformist to appreciate its quirks: http://tinyurl.com/7j3k86p
19:31	clojurebot	In Ordnung
19:32	ibdknox	except popularity, oddly enough :)
19:32	TimMc	Pssh, I gave up on node in 1993.
19:32	TimMc	I could tell it wasn't going anywhere.
19:32	ibdknox	TimMc is the only forward thinker here
19:32	zakwilson	callen: that's the impression I had. The only advantage is being able to use the same language on the server and the client, and that doesn't seem very useful to me.
19:32	muhoo	i actually understand the appeal of node.js. it's the same thign that makes cljs exciting: same language on the server and the client.
19:33	muhoo	the problem, of course, is that javascipt, ehm, wouldn't be my first choice for that language.
19:33	callen	zakwilson: it's not a useful property for many reasons. For one, the backend environment is solving a totally different problem than the DOM and will require completely different code anyway.
19:33	zakwilson	PHP is popular too.
19:33	gfredericks	is (juxt filter remove) == separate?
19:33	technomancy	gfredericks: it is
19:33	callen	zakwilson: you can't actually share anything meaningful just because they're the same language.
19:33	gfredericks	technomancy: I don't know why I found that so hard to reason about
19:33	technomancy	gfredericks: because the old contrib implementation was silly and clouded your mind, perhaps
19:34	ibdknox	zakwilson: php is the best language ever ;)
19:34	TimMc	callen: Sure you can: Compile-time consistency of API.
19:34	Chousuke	I actually don't hate javascript much at all
19:34	Chousuke	it's pretty cool, as far as languages go
19:34	callen	TimMc: have you...seen JavaScript?
19:34	gfredericks	technomancy: I'm actually still surprised it's not in core
19:34	ibdknox	Chousuke: dynamic rebinding of this might be one of the single worst ideas in programming ever
19:34	zakwilson	Everybody has maps, lists and JSON. If you keep your data in simple data structures, you can just pass JSON back and forth.
19:34	TimMc	callen: Fairly experienced in it, yes.
19:34	gfredericks	I bothered to do a $findarg on lazybot and everything
19:34	callen	TimMc: this is not a property they're taking advantage of.
19:34	ibdknox	Chousuke: aside from that, the language isn't the problem, the platforms are :(
19:35	callen	^^ more to the point, yes.
19:35	gfredericks	wait maybe I should have done $findfn
19:35	Chousuke	ibdknox: it's weird, but it seems to make some sort of sense if I think of "this" as the context
19:35	technomancy	ibdknox: yeah, learning a new runtime is a lot harder than learning a new language
19:35	ibdknox	technomancy: yeah, by far
19:35	TimMc	callen: How often have you mistyped a keyword in Clojure, or a URL path, etc.
19:35	technomancy	ibdknox: I had an easier time picking up ocaml than clojurescript
19:35	ibdknox	heh
19:36	zakwilson	I must admit I also don't really get Clojurescript and the like. The language isn't usually the problem with writing JS.
19:36	Chousuke	ibdknox: whatever benefits it may have iare not justified by the mental effort required to maintain a mental model of it, though.
19:36	zakwilson	And you're not likely to be able to share much between the client and server code even if they're the same language.
19:36	brehaut_	zakwilson: depends where you draw the stdlib / language line
19:36	ibdknox	zakwilson: there's a lot of value in the semantics that the default clojure structures/functions provide
19:37	ibdknox	Chousuke: yeah so many very hard to find bugs are the result of that one decision
19:37	ibdknox	lol
19:37	ibdknox	filk-sing?
19:37	ibdknox	~guards
19:37	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
19:37	Chousuke	ibdknox: javascript is like anti-clojure in that respect.
19:38	Chousuke	in clojure, immutability makes things easy to reason about. in javascript, 'this' makes everything hard to reason about. :P
19:38	ibdknox	haha pretty much
19:38	lucian	Chousuke: there's no defense for the clusterfuck that is 'this'
19:38	lucian	oh, nvm
19:38	TimMc	"Back when Fortran was not even Three-tran..."
19:39	lucian	perhaps i'm biased, but i think it should've done it like python
19:39	brehaut_	the lack of useful datastructures in JS is still my single biggest complaint
19:39	ibdknox	TimMc: lol
19:39	muhoo	http://www.shopify.com/technology/5370262-wat-a-funny-look-at-ruby-and-javascript-oddities
19:39	zakwilson	ibdknox: I don't disagree, but... my response to this isn't coherent enough to post.
19:39	lucian	brehaut_: that's getting better with es5
19:39	brehaut_	it is
19:39	brehaut_	but its still not great
19:39	TimMc	ibdknox: Yeah, it's filk. Got a problem with that?!
19:39	ibdknox	zakwilson: that + macros provide a great deal of potential I think
19:39	lucian	brehaut_: there's also the beginnings of a capability object model, which only E has. and quasiquoting too
19:39	ibdknox	TimMc: no, I have a problem with our guards who seemed to have done a terrible job seizing you for it.
19:40	TimMc	haha
19:40	zakwilson	ibdknox: Yeah, I have no trouble seeing the utility of macros. Oddly, I write fairly few in Clojure.
19:40	ibdknox	zakwilson: that's the ideal actually. Macros are mostly valuable at the lib level I think
19:41	ibdknox	they have plenty of utility outside of that, but they really shine there
19:41	brehaut_	lucian: yeah, theres lots of nice things coming (although im not sure about the quasiquoting. seems a bit weird)
19:41	lucian	brehaut_: it's just like in E. namespaced, sanitised quoting (like lisp quasiquoting)
19:41	TimMc	Wait, quasiquote in JS?
19:41	zakwilson	ibdknox: yeah, true. I write internal libraries though and still find fairly few things I can't write as functions instead. This seemed less true with CL, but I may just be more experienced now.
19:41	brehaut_	TimMc: yeah, ES5 is bringing lots of decent stuff to the language
19:42	lucian	TimMc: have a look, it's quite interesting. although the first examples are boring and the syntax sycks
19:42	ibdknox	in 5 years we'll get to use it!
19:42	TimMc	Well, bravo to whoever can make that work.
19:42	lucian	sucks :)
19:42	ibdknox	~rimshot
19:42	clojurebot	Badum, tish
19:42	qbg	At least IE 6 is almost gone in the US (according to some sources) :)
19:42	Chousuke	lucian: It's helped me to stop thinking of it as "this" and instead think of some "context" that has little relation to anything in the lexical scope :P
19:42	TimMc	I guess if all they're doing with macros is templating, they don't need sexprs.
19:43	lucian	Chousuke: that's still no excuse. python has a sane self as a solution to a similar problem
19:43	lucian	TimMc: you can do much more, like new literals
19:43	brehaut	lucian: i cannot remember, does ES5 have mutable iterators/generators like python or did the fix that failure?
19:44	lucian	brehaut: not sure. i think they may get consumed like the python ones
19:44	brehaut	lucian: crap.
19:44	lucian	js is mutable enough already, it won't get any less mutable
19:44	lucian	can't fight that, really
19:44	brehaut	well yeah, but mutable iterators are a great sauce of pain in python
19:44	lucian	brehaut: they are? i haven't noticed
19:45	brehaut	i primarily use python too
19:45	ibdknox	I primarily use VB6
19:45	muhoo	this is truly an awesome hack: https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn/blob/master/src/serializable/fn.clj
19:45	lucian	i don't remember ever being bothered by their consumability
19:45	muhoo	even though awesome is deprecated
19:46	muhoo	any chance of serializable-fn finding its way into the core language at some point, or into repl-tools?
19:46	brehaut	extremely unlikely
19:46	technomancy	odds are low
19:46	ibdknox	too much overhead?
19:46	lucian	muhoo: i don't think the s-exp is kept along
19:47	lucian	though it wouldn't be a big deal if it were, i'd think
19:47	lucian	just put it in metadata or something
19:47	technomancy	it is in the metadata
19:47	lucian	technomancy: the actual data structure? then what would be the impediment?
19:48	technomancy	I don't think they're interested
19:48	lucian	it sounds quite interesting to me :)
19:48	technomancy	ah, if only your opinion or my opinion had some influence on the direction of Clojure
19:49	lucian	:)
19:49	ibdknox	the fact that it's a closure would make it somewhat hard to reason about I suspect
19:49	ibdknox	and have potentially unintended side effects
19:49	lucian	ibdknox: hmm
19:50	qbg	class name wouldn't be preserved either
19:51	TimMc	So... clojure.repl's source-fn uses :line and :file meta on Vars to extract source info from the declaring file
19:51	qbg	TimMc: That is why source doesn't work for fns defined on the repl
19:51	TimMc	aha
19:52	simonadameit1	hm, i stumbled upon strange behavior regarding lazy sequences
19:52	brehaut	bets on binding?
19:52	simonadameit1	see https://github.com/schaf5/euler-clojure-solutions/blob/master/src/euler_clojure_solutions/core.clj
19:52	technomancy	ibdknox: the existing implementation refuses to bind over things that aren't serializable
19:52	ibdknox	ah
19:52	simonadameit1	(nth primes 1000) returns 7927, but (nth primes 10000) returns nil
19:53	simonadameit1	why is that, can i not build infinite lazy sequences?
19:53	ibdknox	technomancy: seems like that might rule out a lot of cases actually
19:53	ibdknox	technomancy: rather, cases where I would want to use it
19:53	brehaut	simonadameit1: you definately can create infinite seqs
19:54	brehaut	,(nth 10000 (iterate 1 inc))
19:54	technomancy	ibdknox: it's a 2-hour hack; it could be made smarter
19:54	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
19:54	technomancy	it should be made to throw on serialization, not at function instantiation time
19:54	TimMc	brehaut: I always get nth's arg order wrong.
19:54	simonadameit1	brehaut: well, could you try that example "primes" that i linked to? it stops after something like 10000 iterations and returns nil :(
19:55	ibdknox	technomancy: yeah, I didn't mean that as a critique of the impl
19:55	qbg	simonadameitl: Are you sure it isn't throw a StackOverflowException?
19:55	TimMc	simonadameit1: You're stacking up an awful lot of remove calls.
19:55	TimMc	Maybe lazy-seq is swallowing the overflow?
19:56	simonadameit1	TimMc: are those stack or heap allocated?
19:56	simonadameit1	i thought lazy-seq would move a chunk to the heap
19:56	qbg	Those thunks still need to be called
19:56	qbg	And those thunks call each other
19:56	simonadameit1	ah ok
19:56	TimMc	I'm trying to think how this interacts with lazy-seq, though.
19:57	brehaut	TimMc: the answer there is 'in a confusing way'
19:57	TimMc	I think it doesn't matter.
19:57	brehaut	yeah its definately stack overflowing here
19:57	brehaut	the exception is not getting swallowed either
19:58	qbg	The solution is to an algorithm that isn't that inefficient :)
19:58	simonadameit1	no no.. the algorithm isnt inefficient
19:58	simonadameit1	the implementation maybe
19:58	qbg	I'm seeing trial division
20:00	simonadameit1	ah, yes
20:00	simonadameit1	you're right
20:00	simonadameit1	now i have to think how to devise a more efficient algorithm which still returns a lazy-seq...
20:01	qbg	The solution to that problem is beautiful
20:02	qbg	There is actually a paper on it
20:02	simonadameit1	Hehe :)
20:04	hiredman	if you ask clojurebot the right way it will tell you all about it
20:05	simonadameit1	clojurebot, how do i compute a lazy seq of primes efficiently?
20:05	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
20:05	simonadameit1	haha :)
20:05	simonadameit1	yeah i know THAT
20:05	ibdknox	~prime
20:05	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
20:05	qbg	LULZ!
20:05	hiredman	~sieve
20:05	clojurebot	see the genuine sieve of eratosthenes
20:06	simonadameit1	yes, but now turn it into a lazy seq algorithm!
20:06	emezeske	clojurebot, what does "It's greek to me" mean?
20:06	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
20:06	qbg	How do you get clojurebot to google something again?
20:07	qbg	emezeske: Eratosthenes was greek for one thing.
20:07	hiredman	~google genuine sieve of eratosthenes
20:07	clojurebot	First, out of 430 results is:
20:07	clojurebot	The Genuine Sieve of Eratosthenes
20:07	clojurebot	http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~oneill/papers/Sieve-JFP.pdf
20:07	tmciver	$google
20:07	lazybot	No search term!
20:10	bbloom	so i've been using reify on some java object, but now I realize I have two different types of java objects that I want to reify with 90% the same interfaces/implementations… what's the idiomatic way to go about that?
20:10	qbg	Anyways, the broken code in the gist gives me a stackoverflowerror in 1.2
20:11	amalloy	$google stackoverflow prime sieve dbyrne
20:11	lazybot	[recursion - Recursive function causing a stack overflow - Stack ...] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2946764/recursive-function-causing-a-stack-overflow
20:12	TimMc	amalloy: You should link to that on the(?) 4clojure primes problem once someone gets a stack overflow.
20:12	bbloom	(yes, i know, concrete inheritance is bad… i didn't design the lib)
20:13	qbg	bbloom: is it actually concrete inheritance?
20:13	qbg	I though reify was interface only
20:13	qbg	(for the Java stuff that is)
20:13	bbloom	qbg: oh no, i guess it isn't
20:14	qbg	bbloom: If you were implementing a protocol, you could use extend
20:15	bbloom	so basically, i have two concrete objects A and B which implement IBase, IA, and IB — I have been reifying both of them to various interfaces
20:15	qbg	You mean you created A and B using reify?
20:16	bbloom	some interop code is returning an A or a B & i've been doing reify to some other set of interfaces that happens to only cover the subset of functionality common to both A and B… but now I want to have a few extra functions that operate on A and B differently… but I don't want to duplicate all the common functions
20:16	bbloom	does that make sense?
20:16	hiredman	have the objects delegate behaviour to other objects and "inject" (close over or pass to the constructor) different objects to get different behavior
20:17	bbloom	yeah, that's what i thought i might have to do… but does that mean I have to basically repeat the list of every method on both objects? seems kinda wordy
20:17	hiredman	bbloom: write a macro to generate them
20:17	qbg	You could use macros, but it seems a bit overkill for a small number of impls
20:17	bbloom	its 10-ish
20:18	qbg	10ish is enough I think :)
20:18	hiredman	bbloom: I would suggest seeing if you could get the 10ish down to 1
20:18	qbg	(I was reading what you wrote before as only need 2 impls)
20:18	bbloom	it's 10ish functions
20:18	bbloom	2 different concrete objects coming back from the java interface
20:19	hiredman	instead of getting different behaviour by having different implementations get different behavior by constructing the same type with different values
20:19	devn	Is lein-noir 1.2.1 really still the plugin to install?
20:20	bbloom	hiredman: since the method sets seem to be disjoint, i could probably just implement everything on either type of concrete object & let it fail at runtime....
20:20	ibdknox	devn: nothing about the template has really changed? the latest stable noir is 1.2.2
20:20	tmciver	Anyone know how to get emacs to display a list of installed packages? package-list-packages seems to only list not-installed packages.
20:21	technomancy	tmciver: installed packages should be at the bottom
20:21	devn	ibdknox: sorry, just saw 1.2.1 come across the wire as a dependency when i lein install'd the plugin
20:21	technomancy	but you can do ls ~/.emacs.d/elpa too
20:21	simonadameit1	so actually its quite simple...
20:21	technomancy	ibdknox: are you using lein-newnew yet?
20:21	devn	ibdknox: once i built a new project i realized i'd made an error
20:21	ibdknox	technomancy: next version is
20:21	technomancy	great
20:22	devn	ibdknox: one thing i notice is that I always end up fixing the indentation of the generated projct.clj
20:22	ibdknox	devn: blame vim
20:22	ibdknox	devn: it'll be fixed in the next one :)
20:22	tmciver	technomancy: doh! I was looking for an 'I' in the first column.
20:22	devn	:)
20:23	devn	ibdknox: i remember when lein had a similar issue, so idk if that's worth looking into
20:23	bobhope	is update-proxy functional
20:23	bobhope	?
20:24	hiredman	no
20:24	hiredman	proxy is slow
20:24	hiredman	(fyi)
20:24	bobhope	I need to dynamically redefine method implementations while implementing protocols
20:24	bobhope	I suppose I could reify
20:24	bobhope	but I need to override equals and hashcode
20:24	tmciver	on a related question I installed color-theme package but doing M-x 'color-theme' does present any completions.
20:24	hiredman	:\| don't proxy protocols
20:25	dgrnbrg	I have protocols and interfaces I need to define
20:25	hiredman	I don't believe you need any such thing
20:26	technomancy	tmciver: the autoloads on the color-theme packages are busted
20:26	technomancy	I think I filed a bug for that
20:26	dgrnbrg	I need to write an object which support destructuring as a vector and as a map, which provides the results according to my spec, and I need to implement a few other protocols
20:26	dgrnbrg	this object must do all these things
20:27	tmciver	technomancy: really? any work-around?
20:28	technomancy	tmciver: https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs.d/phil/workarounds.el
20:28	tmciver	technomancy: how apt!
20:28	lynaghk	What's the appropriate way to call math functions in clojure? I'd like to use Sine, but it's not in clojure.math.numeric-tower. Are there any maintained libs that wrap the host math functions?
20:29	technomancy	tmciver: that's a different package manager
20:29	hiredman	,(Math/sin 4)
20:29	clojurebot	-0.7568024953079282
20:30	tmciver	technomancy: what's a differenct package mananger? workarounds.el?
20:30	lynaghk	hiredman: So drop to the Java eh? I'm hoping to get something that will work on CLJS too, so maybe I will have to put together some kind of wrapper lib.
20:30	technomancy	tmciver: apt is
20:30	technomancy	~ $ which apt-get # /usr/bin/apt-get
20:30	clojurebot	No entiendo
20:30	technomancy
20:30	technomancy	har har
20:30	TimMc	lynaghk: May I recommend https://github.com/baznex/imports
20:30	tmciver	funny
20:30	hiredman	clojure.math.numeric-tower is most likely too slow to be useful
20:30	brehaut	lynaghk: JS uses the same Math object as Java
20:31	hiredman	(I don't have any numbers to back that up)
20:31	TimMc	tmciver: We don't have any actual usage docs yet!
20:31	lynaghk	brehaut: think I could get away with (def Math js/Math) and use the same definitions?
20:31	TimMc	This is terrible!
20:31	echo-area	I went offline yesterday after asking my question.
20:31	brehaut	lynaghk: i know next to nothing about cljs sorry.
20:31	lynaghk	TimMc: you may, thank you.
20:32	ibdknox\|away	lynaghk: I don't think that will work
20:32	echo-area	Does anyone here know Clojure's STM implementation? Every committed value is computed a millisecond-based commitment time, but it's never used. What's the purpose of this time? Isn't it slowing down transactions?
20:32	echo-area	Could anyone explain this?
20:32	qbg	dgrnbrg: Looks like your object will need to be seqable and implement ILookup, or Map
20:32	dgrnbrg	qbg, I know
20:32	tmciver	TimMc: in imports?
20:32	TimMc	tmciver: Yeah. :-(
20:33	dgrnbrg	qbg: I'm pursuing an implementation based on a functional implementation of proxies using deftype
20:33	hiredman	the formatting of clojure.math.numeric-tower is pretty horrible too
20:33	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/math/numeric_tower.clj#L223 soooo bad
20:33	tmciver	TimMc: usage is obvious to the most casual of observers.
20:33	qbg	dgrnbrg: What do you need help with?
20:33	dgrnbrg	qbg: I wanted a better solution, if it existed :)
20:33	tmciver	TimMc: we don't need no stinkin' docs!
20:33	TimMc	tmciver: There's pretty decent usage instructions in the docstrings, actually.
20:34	qbg	dgrnbrg: Better than using deftype?
20:34	dgrnbrg	simpler, yes
20:34	tmciver	TimMc: well, that's probably a task I could tackle. That way I can feel useful.
20:34	dgrnbrg	so I don't have to provide implementations of IMeta, IObj, hashCode, and equals
20:34	dgrnbrg	since those are just boilerplate
20:35	qbg	dgrnbrg: deftype is probably the best way. You could alternatively decide that you don't need a single object to do all of that :)
20:36	dgrnbrg	I do, though, since I'm writing a system that integrates w/ clojure seamlessly, but has a code generator for a different backend
20:36	dgrnbrg	and uses runtime clojure as its compile-time macro system
20:36	qbg	IIRC, deftype provides impls of hashCodes and equals unless you override it though
20:37	TimMc	tmciver: Haha, look at all the "contributors" to baznex/imports: https://github.com/baznex/imports/contributors
20:37	dgrnbrg	defrecord explicitly mentions that it offers hashCode and equals
20:37	tmciver	TimMc: Ha! did you add them?
20:38	TimMc	tmciver: No, it's an artifact of having forked clojure-contrib.
20:38	dgrnbrg	hmm, maybe not
20:38	dgrnbrg	oh well...
20:38	tmciver	TimMc: hmm
20:38	qbg	Ah, yes right
20:38	amalloy	hiredman: that looks kinda like the indentation in common lisp, or maybe elisp, right?
20:39	zcaudate	does any know if there is a cli way to check for the latest version of a package on clojars?
20:39	hiredman	maybe some kind of common lisp, not elisp
20:39	TimMc	zcaudate: There's lein search...
20:40	devn	so, what's the buzz around the work aaron cohen is doing?
20:40	TimMc	who?
20:40	clojurebot	who is your master
20:40	devn	he's working on CinC
20:41	TimMc	Oh, that guy.
20:41	hiredman	is there buzz?
20:41	devn	i dont know, im just trying to take the temperature
20:41	devn	im interested in what he's doing
20:41	zcaudate	thnx timmc
20:42	TimMc	Watching Rich's keynote talk, it sounds like modifying the CLJS compiler is going to be the official path forward for CinC
20:42	bbloom	are the built in clojure interfaces available in protocol form? i really wish I could use extend-type with Associative
20:42	devn	TimMc: yeah that was clear on cljs from the outset -- it's a blueprint
20:43	qbg	bbloom: Maybe one day soon...
20:43	bbloom	cljs has protocols for associative ;)
20:43	TimMc	devn: The outset? It has been around for years, as far as I can tell.
20:43	devn	TimMc: cljs?
20:43	TimMc	yep
20:43	qbg	There was a different, older cljs
20:43	TimMc	Maybe that was an older project that was scrapped.
20:43	TimMc	ok
20:43	qbg	Not the same thing at all
20:44	devn	yeah that was chouser's
20:44	bbloom	qbg: is that "someday soon" related to the CinC stuff you guys are talking about now?
20:44	devn	who did a lot of work on the new one as well because, well, he's chouser.
20:45	qbg	Once we get CinC for the Java impl/backend...
20:45	bbloom	gotcha...
20:46	TimMc	I guess CinC will be 2.0 at least.
20:46	TimMc	Well, no, I take that back.
20:46	bbloom	yeah, i implemented Var for a clojurescript experiment i was doing & editing the cljs compiler was super easy compared to making sense of the clojure JVM java code
20:46	alexbaranosky	TimMc, that is a serious amount of contributors to baznex/import
20:46	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Yeah, it is basically an accidental lie.
20:47	devn	as of (first clojure/conj) there were more than a few people of repute discussing CinC
20:47	alexbaranosky	yeah, but funny - we should get all those guys to come to the next bazne gathering :)
20:47	tmciver	alexbaranosky: looks like everyone is there except for you! ;)
20:47	TimMc	But from now on, I'm going to fork leiningen or something, delete everything (keeping the commit history), and use that for each new project.
20:48	TimMc	I'm gonna look like such a collaborator.
20:48	qbg	'This leiningen fork includes a built in Sudoku plugin!'
20:48	devn	(doctor)
20:48	alexbaranosky	tmciver, ha, I've been too busy talking about QuickCheck to actually work on any code at the last couple baznexes
20:49	devn	alexbaranosky: ah, quickcheck man, eh?
20:49	tmciver	alexbaranosky: that's OK. I probably shouldn't be listed as a contributor anyway.
20:49	devn	alexbaranosky: we've been kicking around ideas a lot lately, but the quickcheck thing keeps coming up
20:49	qbg	I wonder if we can hook together leiningen build output to Overtone
20:50	devn	qbg: don't steal my idea!
20:50	devn	qbg: i just started working on that on monday night!
20:50	alexbaranosky	devn, I've been chatting with reiddraper a lot about QuickCheck... and also how it can be incorporated into Midje
20:51	qbg	You got to hook up maven output to Overtone, and build a Clojure
20:51	alexbaranosky	devn, https://github.com/marick/Midje/tree/formulas
20:51	qbg	Probably sounds like dubstep
20:51	alexbaranosky	devn, https://github.com/AlexBaranosky/Shrink
20:51	devn	lol qbg, no, i want to do what someone did a long time ago with lazytest
20:51	devn	they wrote lazytest-listen
20:51	bbloom	i'm finding the java interop stuff to be a pretty huge mind bender… there are so many helper macros that i feel like ONE OF THEM needs to do what i want… but i cant figure it out
20:51	devn	i want to add a plugin for midje that gives you audio output for tests
20:52	devn	mary had a lit-tle lamb, lit-tle laCRASH
20:52	alexbaranosky	devn, depending on your level of seriousness, we could talk about what it would take to enable that kind of plugin to hook up wit Midje :)
20:52	qbg	Suddenly a 1000 sheep cried out and were silenced
20:52	bbloom	the dichotomy of protocols and interfaces is frustrating…. it seems like if only these things were protocols everything would work fine…. is there any way to turn an interface into a protocol?
20:52	devn	alexbaranosky: im quite serious. i'd like to do an audio output for test runs
20:53	ibdknox\|away	I built a vs extension that monitored the speed of your typing and faded flight of the valkyries in as you got faster lol
20:53	bbloom	ibdknox: that is awesome.
20:53	ibdknox\|away	used to install that on random people's machines. The results were hilarious
20:53	qbg	bbloom: Do you want java code to take the result?
20:53	alexbaranosky	nice
20:54	bbloom	qbg: yeah, i need an object that i can work with in clojure and pass back to java
20:54	qbg	Then no :(
20:54	bbloom	so what would be the solution if i didnt need to pass it back?
20:54	technomancy	I wrote the "lein play" plugin to give a final fantasy victory fanfare on successful test runs
20:54	alexbaranosky	devn, you can add an issue and we could hash out what that might entail on github
20:54	devn	alexbaranosky: Shrink looks really cool. Did you ANN on the list?
20:54	devn	alexbaranosky: will do that immediately
20:54	alexbaranosky	devn, not yet, because it's not done yet
20:54	bbloom	cus in theory i could add an 'unwrap function and just call that before passing it back
20:54	devn	alexbaranosky: im excited to see it
20:55	devn	alexbaranosky: i would like to give a talk at our next Clojure meetup about quickcheck, test.generative, and hopefully Shrink. :)
20:56	alexbaranosky	devn, shrink is really meant as a component to getting quickcheck style workign with Midje - but I made it a separate library because I noticed that test.generative doesn't shrink failures yet -- now it could be usable to other libraries
20:57	devn	alexbaranosky: perhaps there is room for contributing to test.generative? I don't actually know the particulars there, so don't take that as a strong suggestion by any stretch of the imagination.
20:57	alexbaranosky	devn ideally the test framework takes a generated failure, and keeps shrinking it, and rerunning the test to get the smallest possible failure which it then will report to the user
20:57	qbg	bbloom: Well, it sort of depends on what I mean by pass it to the Java code. You could create a protocol that mirrors the interface and extend the protocol to the interface, but not much else
20:57	alexbaranosky	stuart halloway expressed excitement when he saw Shrink, so I think there is room for collaboration there
20:58	devn	alexbaranosky: smallest meaning the most common overlapping failure between inputs?
20:58	alexbaranosky	devn, also, my current vision for midje's formula macro is for us to just borrow the generators from test.generative ... but we'll see how that goes, I haven't thought too hard on it yet
20:58	alexbaranosky	dev, smallest mean.... something like "least complex"
20:59	devn	alexbaranosky: nod, i was thinking in a different dimension there about the "root" being shared among many test inputs, so in some sense it is the "largest" possible failure
20:59	alexbaranosky	so if your fact fails on a generated number of 100234 then it will try to shrink it to like 50117
20:59	alexbaranosky	then run it again
20:59	alexbaranosky	and see if it fails still
21:00	alexbaranosky	the principle being that it is going to be hard to understand why a huge funky number or string is failing
21:00	devn	or incredibly obvious :)
21:00	devn	{:pre ...}
21:01	devn	anyway, i see the drive of it, and i think that's great
21:01	bbloom	http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/ — heh…
21:01	bbloom	i guess i'm not the only person who is confused
21:02	devn	bbloom: that's a great chart
21:02	alexbaranosky	yeah I enjoyed that chart too.
21:02	TimMc	I want to rearrange it, but it apparently has to fit on a book page.
21:03	devn	this community rules.
21:03	cemerick	TimMc: Feel free to mix it up however you like.
21:03	alexbaranosky	cemerick, that chart makes me wonder if the book is going to be equivalently insightful
21:04	brehaut	alexbaranosky: yes
21:05	bbloom	i realize that i'm doing java interop, so it's no surprise that it feels java-y…. it's just…. I hate java-y....
21:05	alexbaranosky	brehaut, guess I'm going to buy it then :)
21:05	brehaut	alexbaranosky: i
21:05	brehaut	've liked what ive read so far
21:05	cemerick	alexbaranosky: I hope so :-)
21:06	cemerick	though, I'd rather it be useful than insightful
21:06	alexbaranosky	cemerick, I think it can achieve high ranks in both categories
21:09	bbloom	ok, so i think i have an idea of how to do what i want to do by using either deftype or reify plus a macro…. my last question on this: is there an easy way to reflect over an interface & define delegation methods for my type? ie, I don't want to bother defining a dozen interface methods which are all of the form foo(x,y) { return underlying.foo(x,y); }
21:10	qbg	bbloom: take a look at clojure.reflect
21:10	qbg	And use a macro
21:11	bbloom	ah neat — ok… i'll give this all a try
21:11	bbloom	…. right after i eat something :-)
21:11	bbloom	thanks for the help!
21:11	qbg	Alternatively if you are in 1.2 for some reason, you can use the Java reflection API directly
21:11	bbloom	nope, 1.3
21:12	bbloom	seems like this would be good enough… i was just hoping that reify had some kind of :delegate [fn1 fn2 fn3] or something like that
21:20	devn	didn't there used to be some example floating around about taking live keyboard input and playing midi notes using a java frame or something?
21:20	devn	I can'
21:20	devn	can't find it anywhere
21:23	TimMc	technomancy: DISASTER! serializable-fn has a compile bug!
21:23	devn	heh
21:24	devn	why do you need serializable-fn, btw?
21:24	devn	You just want to print-dup (defn foo [x] (+ 1 x)) to a file?
21:24	TimMc	I don't!
21:24	TimMc	Just playing around with it.
21:25	devn	ah, so honestly im not exactly sure what serializable-fn is good for
21:25	devn	i guess it prints pretty on serialization?
21:25	TimMc	yes!
21:25	devn	but who cares? :D)
21:26	devn	i looked at the code. it's interesting, but i can't imagine where i'd be serializing a fn where i'd prefer it be perfectly readable
21:26	devn	serialization tends to be inherently unreadable
21:27	devn	it strikes me that the very idea of serialization is often that it is the lowest energy state which preserves information
21:28	devn	so i guess i don't get it when it comes to keeping it readable
21:28	TimMc	Hmm, can't figure out how the tests pass.
21:28	simonadameit1	he, that sieve thingy is definitely faster than trial division — and no stack-overflow/nil return this time
21:28	simonadameit1	thank you guys!
21:29	amalloy	huh? the point of serializable-fn is that functions aren't serializable without it
21:30	amalloy	TimMc: i was the last one to touch serializable-fn. what goes wrong?
21:30	qbg	simonadameitl: Got it implemented?
21:30	simonadameit1	code is here: https://github.com/schaf5/euler-clojure-solutions/blob/master/src/euler_clojure_solutions/core.clj
21:30	simonadameit1	qbg: well … my version of it, no multi-map like in haskell
21:31	qbg	I did a map to a set, did you do the same thing?
21:31	simonadameit1	qbg: no, i push out the iterator as far i can till i find an empty slot
21:31	devn	amalloy: that's false though. why couldnt code just be written to a file and have read-string called on slurping it? that's not serialization?
21:32	simonadameit1	figured that would have the same effect with less set/map consing
21:32	devn	&(eval (read-string "(defn foo [x y] (+ 1 x y))"))
21:32	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
21:32	qbg	Probably a bit more work than you need towards the end of the lazy seq though
21:32	amalloy	certainly it could. but defn doesn't save the source, and you haven't handled closures yet
21:32	dgrnbrg	How do I find the first element of a sequence that satisfies a predicate? some seems to return true, not the element of interest
21:32	TimMc	amalloy: ^Writer, but no import
21:32	devn	amalloy: not trying to be snarky here: enlighten me. i don't know what you mean.
21:32	amalloy	(comp first filter)
21:33	qbg	,(first (drop-while odd? (range)))
21:33	clojurebot	0
21:33	dgrnbrg	thanks :)
21:34	amalloy	devn: (let [x 1] (fn [y] (+ x y))). if i pass you a pointer to that function, how do you serialize it?
21:34	simonadameit1	qbg: did you look at the code? — the build-primes reads well to me
21:34	amalloy	or even just (fn [x] x) - you can't serialize that either, because you don't have the source
21:34	brehaut	qbg: that doesnt do what you think it does
21:35	devn	amalloy: so what is the pragmatic use of such a thing?
21:35	amalloy	shrug
21:35	brehaut	,(map #(first (drop-while odd? %)) [[1 2 3] [2 3 4]])
21:35	clojurebot	(2 2)
21:35	devn	&(def foo (eval (read-string "(fn [x] (+ x 1))")))
21:35	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
21:35	amalloy	that's technomancy's problem. but for one thing it lets you send functions over the wire
21:36	devn	couldn't you just make functions on the other end of the wire?
21:36	qbg	Yeah, no drop-until. The filter solution is better
21:36	TimMc	amalloy: What I can't figure out is how ^Writer causes a problem when I (use ...) serializable-fn, but not when it is :use'd in the tests.
21:36	dgrnbrg	amalloy, you can register a java agent and intercept the byte code of the function, then send that
21:37	brehaut	relying on the bytecode of compiled clojure is a risky proposition
21:37	devn	i guess it's just an interesting bit, and im cool with that, but it just seems sort of contrived
21:37	devn	like that's a general use case or something
21:37	amalloy	TimMc: clojure versions? maybe the one serializable-fn uses is more forgiving of broken typehints
21:38	devn	klauern: hello!
21:38	amalloy	yeah, i think 1.3 is stricter than 1.2 in that regard
21:38	amalloy	TimMc: send a pull request: definitely a bug
21:39	qbg	simonadameitl: Yeah, that looks pretty good
21:39	TimMc	amalloy: Yup, it's a 1.2/1.3 thing.
21:40	TimMc	and will do
21:40	devn	amalloy: im not trying to ruffle feathers, i just dont see, despite how interesting it is, why anyone would make that their common practice
21:47	simonadameit1	qbg: im thinking about moving the lazy-seq part down, so I can use (recur..) to find the next prime
21:47	simonadameit1	but it seems to mean always computing one more than needed
21:48	muhoo	hmm, how production-ready is aleph?
21:48	muhoo	the readme says "Aleph is meant to be a sandbox for exploring how Clojure can be used effectively in this context", but maybe he's just being modest, i dunno.
21:51	simonadameit1	oh, actually it works fine without computing too much.. and the speed improvement of recur is quite much :)
21:53	alexbaranosky	what is the canonical function for getting every permutation of a sequence?
21:57	muhoo	alexbaranosky: doseq?
21:57	brehaut	surely for would be a better choice
21:57	brehaut	or mapcat
22:01	TimMc	alexbaranosky: I doubt there's a core fn.
22:02	TimMc	$findarg set (% [1 2]) #{[1 2] [2 1]}
22:02	lazybot	[]
22:03	alexbaranosky	clojure.math.combinatorics
22:03	alexbaranosky	https://github.com/clojure/math.combinatorics/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/math/combinatorics.clj#L159
22:03	TimMc	&(require 'clojure.match.combinatorics)
22:03	lazybot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/match/combinatorics__init.class or clojure/match/combinatorics.clj on classpath:
22:03	TimMc	&(require 'clojure.math.combinatorics)
22:03	lazybot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/math/combinatorics__init.class or clojure/math/combinatorics.clj on classpath:
22:06	bbloom	does this room have a preferred paste bin?
22:07	brehaut	refheap or gist ?
22:07	bbloom	thx
22:07	muhoo	~paste
22:07	clojurebot	paste is http://gist.github.com/
22:08	muhoo	heh
22:08	muhoo	~paste is also http://refheap.com
22:08	clojurebot	Roger.
22:08	muhoo	~paste
22:08	clojurebot	paste is https://gist.github.com
22:08	muhoo	:-/
22:08	brehaut	~paste
22:08	clojurebot	paste is http://gist.github.com/
22:08	bbloom	what's the ~ operator do for clojurebot?
22:08	muhoo	if you insist
22:08	TimMc	muhoo: Multiple factoids.
22:09	TimMc	muhoo: And a broken forgetting mechanism.
22:09	brehaut	bbloom: it just addresses the bot
22:09	TimMc	bbloom: It's the factoid trigger.
22:09	bbloom	gotcha
22:09	brehaut	clojurebot: paste
22:09	muhoo	~guards
22:09	clojurebot	paste is https://gist.github.com
22:09	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
22:09	brehaut	clojurebot: guards
22:09	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
22:10	brehaut	i dont think its specifically for factoids
22:10	TimMc	hmm
22:10	brehaut	~3d6
22:10	clojurebot	excusez-moi
22:10	brehaut	~ roll 3d6
22:10	clojurebot	Excuse me?
22:11	brehaut	clojurebot: 3d6
22:11	clojurebot	No entiendo
22:11	bbloom	qbg: This is what I came up with: https://refheap.com/paste/809 simple enough!
22:11	brehaut	3d6
22:11	clojurebot	15
22:11	brehaut	fne
22:12	brehaut	so i think ~ / clojurebot: works for ticket lookups, code lookups, google searches, seens, epigrams and factoids. everything else doesnt require nicks or ~
22:13	brehaut	haha 0.1% of the time clojurebot reacts to stuff that isnt addressed to it
22:13	amalloy	bbloom: (. obj method) exists specifically so that you don't have to keep constructing (.method object) in macros
22:14	bbloom	amalloy: even better! thanks
22:14	amalloy	brehaut: you've never noticed? he's a pain
22:14	brehaut	amalloy: ive noticed, but never understood why. now i do
22:14	amalloy	he's cute, though, so he stays that way
22:15	brehaut	i had assumed there was a rule i didnt understand
22:15	brehaut	turns out it was much simplier than i realised
22:16	bbloom	amalloy: new and improved: https://refheap.com/paste/810
22:16	bbloom	i'm confident enough with clojure now to write things that work the first time…. but i still don't have the feel for how it should look right away
22:19	amalloy	it's rather nicer if you use ` rather than list, imo: `(~name [this# ~@args] (. this# ~name args)). but are you sure the nesting/parens are right there? it looks like it will generate (. foo put (1 2)), whereas i thought the syntax was (. foo (put 1 2))
22:19	bbloom	just did that: https://refheap.com/paste/811
22:19	bbloom	:-)
22:20	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(.put foo 1 2))
22:20	lazybot	⇒ (. foo put 1 2)
22:20	amalloy	the parens are optional either way, of course, so you can just splice with ~@args and avoid the question
22:20	bbloom	yeah the ~@ seems nicer
22:20	muhoo	ooh cool
22:20	bbloom	the ~' is a bit weird, but makes enough sense
22:20	amalloy	~'this is tacky IMO
22:20	clojurebot	In Ordnung
22:20	bbloom	i figure you get used to it
22:20	bbloom	amalloy: so what's the right thing to do?
22:20	amalloy	this#, as i suggested
22:20	bbloom	oh dur
22:20	bbloom	gensym
22:20	bbloom	right
22:20	muhoo	~'this
22:20	clojurebot	'this is tacky IMO
22:21	muhoo	heh
22:21	amalloy	you might also destructure :name and :parameter-types instead of looking them up as keywords
22:21	amalloy	(defn- delegate-method [{:keys [name parameter-types]}] ...)
22:23	bbloom	i guess i could gensym for all the args too, huh?
22:24	bbloom	https://refheap.com/paste/812
22:25	amalloy	repeatedly takes a count argument
22:25	bbloom	… of course it does
22:25	bbloom	heh
22:26	bbloom	https://refheap.com/paste/813
22:27	bbloom	ok, that's looking pretty good in my book :-) going to go eat… which i had planned on HOURS ago…. thanks for all the help guys!
22:28	muhoo	optionally. i've seen repeatedly with no count before
22:28	muhoo	it's fun, like typing "yes" at a unix command prompt
22:33	devn	Overwrite /, [yes/no]
22:33	devn	super fun.
22:38	bbloom	…. i just ran `man yes`
22:38	bbloom	i'm not exactly sure what i'd use that for....
22:38	bbloom	lol
22:38	bbloom	$ which no
22:38	bbloom	no not found
22:38	bbloom	sigh
22:39	Apage43	bbloom: $ yes no
22:39	bbloom	well of course
22:40	bbloom	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_(Unix)
22:40	bbloom	well that's super informative....
22:50	johnmn3	g'day
22:51	johnmn3	I bought a super low budget VPS (6 bucks a month)
22:51	johnmn3	unfortunately, when I attempt to do a: lein run
22:52	johnmn3	Caused by: java.io.IOException: java.io.IOException: error=12, Cannot allocate memory
22:52	johnmn3	now, the specs on the box aren't horrible
22:52	johnmn3	1GB ram, burstable to 1.5
22:53	johnmn3	and free thinks it has 1.5
22:53	johnmn3	and free says I'm using only 166 megs
22:53	johnmn3	so I'm not sure why it is doing this
22:53	johnmn3	So I've been looking into what the ways are to configure jvm boot options for leiningen
22:54	johnmn3	so I added this to the project file:
22:54	johnmn3	:jvm-opts ["-Xmx512m"]
22:54	johnmn3	is that the correct course of action, and, if so, did I execute that correctly?
22:56	johnmn3	by the way, running "lein help" returns the help menu, without causing a memory error... hmm, maybe only the bash file is running and no java?
22:56	johnmn3	going to try lein new again
22:56	johnmn3	k, lein new test2 works with no errors
22:56	johnmn3	anyone ever seen this error on a low budget box.
22:57	johnmn3	?
23:00	emezeske	johnmn3: Maybe try "lein trampoline run"
23:00	emezeske	johnmn3: I think that runs the app in-process instead of spawning another JVM
23:01	amalloy	bbloom: it's hard to imagine what you'd use identity or constantly for in clojure, and yet they're indispensable
23:01	johnmn3	attempting
23:03	muhoo	how do i specify which symbols to use in use? (use 'foo.bar :only ['baz]) does not work
23:03	bbloom	amalloy: identity and constantly make perfect sense to me… the `yes` command in unix didn't so much… i guess i switched to unix long after commands grew -f and -y arguments
23:03	brehaut	(use '[foo.bar :only [baz]])
23:04	brehaut	muhoo: ^
23:04	muhoo	ah! i have to quote the whole damn list. got it, thanks
23:04	johnmn3	failed
23:04	muhoo	works, thanks
23:04	emezeske	johnmn3: Doh!
23:04	johnmn3	different failure
23:04	arohner	muhoo: it's not required to quote the whole list, but you do need a seq around "foo.bar :only [baz]")
23:05	johnmn3	SIGSEGV
23:05	johnmn3	ld-linux
23:05	arohner	muhoo: (:use '[foo.bar :only ('baz)]) or (:use ['foo.bar :only ('baz)])
23:05	johnmn3	It probably has something to do with the fact that I'm paying 6 bucks a month for a vps
23:05	arohner	erm, the inner ' quote on the left one isn't necessary
23:05	amalloy	arohner: the first one there won't work. too many quotes
23:05	emezeske	johnmn3: Yeah, segfault seems like it's probably not Java's fault
23:05	arohner	yeah, typo
23:06	muhoo	johnmn3: where can you get a vps for only $6/mo!?
23:06	muhoo	cheapest i've seen is like $20/mo at linode, and like $60/mo at aws
23:06	johnmn3	I know, crazy, right?
23:07	johnmn3	muhoo: http://www.lowendbox.com/blog/urpad-5-99month-1024mb-openvz-vps-in-dallas-tx/
23:07	amalloy	the extra $14 seems to buy you a jvm that functions
23:08	johnmn3	but I may check these guys out if urpad doesn't work
23:08	johnmn3	http://buyvm.net/
23:08	muhoo	ah, openvz. not "real" virtualization, but useful
23:08	johnmn3	right
23:08	muhoo	and cheap
23:09	johnmn3	buyvm has some kvm options
23:09	clojurebot	I don't understand.
23:09	gfredericks	clojurebot: buyvm \|has\| some kvm options
23:09	clojurebot	Alles klar
23:09	johnmn3	but the 1GB ram costs 20.00
23:09	muhoo	wow, $15/YEAR? damn that's good
23:09	johnmn3	yea, but that's 128 ram
23:10	johnmn3	can you run clojure apps on that?
23:10	johnmn3	with leiningen?
23:10	emezeske	That's why I'm going with google app engine
23:10	johnmn3	geez, low budget clojure is a blog post waiting to happen
23:11	emezeske	Free, and it works
23:11	johnmn3	yea, I guess GAE and Heroku deserve an honerable mention
23:11	muhoo	heroku free too, up to a point
23:11	emezeske	For apps that aren't going to see much traffic
23:11	johnmn3	I deployed to heroku before, but there's something about having root access
23:11	emezeske	Yeah, GAE costs $$$ if you have any decent traffic
23:11	emezeske	If you want root access, pay for a linode :)
23:12	johnmn3	I did
23:12	emezeske	But...?
23:12	johnmn3	I just don't use it enough to warrant 20 bucks a month
23:12	muhoo	well, openvz gives you root access, and the abillity for them to keylog you :-)
23:12	johnmn3	Is KVM unrootkitable?
23:13	muhoo	actualy kvm can probably be rootkitted too
23:13	johnmn3	If you don't have physical access...
23:13	muhoo	but it is SO easy to jump into an openvz container as root
23:13	muhoo	vzctl enter xxx
23:13	muhoo	bang, they've rooted you
23:14	johnmn3	yea, probably shouldn't host host any storefronts on a 6 dollar boxes
23:15	muhoo	or any shared hosting, but people do it
23:15	muhoo	some are better than others. i love nearlyfreespeech.net
23:15	muhoo	but, alas, they only do PHP natively :-(
23:30	gtrak	anyone know how to turn off a note on an overtone definst?
23:34	devn	(stop)
23:34	gtrak	doesn't that kill everything?
23:34	devn	(inc)
23:35	devn	You could cheat if it has a freq and (ctl inst-name :note 0) or something
23:35	gtrak	ah
23:35	devn	otherwise im afraid im not too much help
23:35	devn	im sure there's a cleaner way
23:36	devn	perhaps you could (stop inst)
23:36	devn	or something like that
23:37	gtrak	(ctl mooger :note 0) did something!
23:37	devn	yes but it is technically still playing
23:37	gtrak	yea... not quite right
23:37	devn	it's just outside your range of hearing it :)
23:37	gtrak	I really need an example
23:38	devn	gtrak: i think the examples/* dir in the overtone project is chock full of examples
23:38	gtrak	haha, I need just one, unfortunately
23:38	devn	it might take some hunting, but i recall stopping a specific instrument being in there
23:38	gtrak	the right one :-)
23:38	alexbaranosky	devn: still hoping to see the audible report failures issue :)
23:38	devn	gtrak: inspect the args stop takes
23:38	devn	alexbaranosky: sigh I've slipped again haven't I?
23:38	devn	I want to do _ALL THE THINGS_
23:39	gtrak	this looks right: :note-off (ctl (get @notes* (:note event)) :gate 0)
23:39	devn	badda bing
23:39	bbloom	is there a useful syntax for macros that expand to include metadata/type-hints? or is with-meta the best bet?
23:39	devn	that looks right to me as well gtrak
23:39	devn	gtrak: erm, maybe
23:40	devn	gtrak: why :gate 0
23:40	devn	gtrak: :note-off ought to be enough I think
23:40	gtrak	hmm, not sure, it's in the midi example
23:40	gtrak	i think note-off is the actual midi message
23:40	gtrak	there's a map of currently-playing notes
23:42	devn	gtrak: there used to be a (kill n) sort of thing
23:42	devn	so when you play (inst), it returns a value, like 24 or something
23:42	devn	you used to type (kill 24)
23:42	gtrak	ah
23:42	devn	stop may be that now, stop may take args, so you might try that
23:44	gtrak	kill did something, I heard a pop
23:44	devn	heh, im not sure that's a good thing :)
23:44	gtrak	haha
23:44	gtrak	yea, seems like stuff is dead
23:44	gtrak	ima try the ctl way
23:46	devn	gtrak: id say do something nice like (ctl mooger :gate 0)
23:46	devn	followed by (kill mooger)
23:46	devn	but again, i think there's still probably a more noble way to kill an inst in progress
23:47	devn	gtrak: ask on the list
23:48	muhoo	in docs like this, why is it map* not map ? https://github.com/ztellman/lamina
23:48	muhoo	what's the * do?
23:49	devn	muhoo: https://github.com/ztellman/lamina/blob/master/src/lamina/core/seq.clj#L248
23:49	muhoo	oh thanks, it's his own variation
23:50	devn	muhoo: nod, when you see foo* it generally means it's custom, private, or part of the building blocks that make a true "(map ...)"
23:51	muhoo	wow, map, filter, reduce, partition, take-while*, he's got a lot
23:51	devn	i know that's vague, but in general i just see foo* and think: "must be special in some way"
23:51	muhoo	good convention, thanks for explaining it
23:52	devn	i think it's part of an older convention that a crust neckbeard would scold me for explaining in such a reductive way
23:52	gtrak	so, now I try it with ctl, I get SEVERE: Failed attempting to send an OSC message to SuperCollider server. Reason: incorrect arglist type in OSC message /n_set. Expected an integer or a string representing a control found class java.lang.Float. Message name: /n_set Type sig: [:node-id :ALTERNATING-ctl-handle-THEN-ctl-val*] Arg list: (31 60.0 "gate" 0.0)
23:52	devn	but that's the version i go with muhoo
23:52	devn	crusty*
23:53	muhoo	so, along those lines, foo! means it has side-effects, bar means it's a global variable, oops dynamic var, and baz- means it's private, right?
23:53	devn	foo => earmuffs, and yes, it means dynamic var as of 1.3
23:53	devn	defn- means it's private
23:54	devn	i don't see people use (defn- foo- []) in practice
23:54	devn	it would still be (defn- foo [])
23:54	muhoo	ok, because it won't show up in ns-publics if it's defined with defn-, i guess
23:54	muhoo	starting to figure some of this out
23:54	gtrak	devn, kill works, I just gotta keep track of the return values
23:55	arohner	muhoo: earmufs and ! are conventions, not required
23:55	devn	^- +10
23:55	devn	do what you think is intention revealing and correct
23:56	devn	muhoo: fwiw you might also see this: (defn foo-p [])
23:56	devn	muhoo: that means foo-predicate, as in (defn foo? [])
23:56	devn	where the result is true or false
23:57	muhoo	oh, interesting, thanks. i'd seen foo? a lot of places, i.e. in core even? odd? etc
23:57	devn	that's a common lispism that has bled over, but you may see it now and then in other libs
23:57	devn	it was new to me when i first saw it, just passing that along
23:57	arohner	oh, foo-p is hideous in clojure
23:57	arohner	we have question marks for a reason
23:58	devn	i know, i know, but CL guys come to clojure and use it now and then
23:58	muhoo	it doesn't seem idiomatic, but thanks for the heads up in case i run into ported cl code
23:58	devn	if you see this sort of thing: (defn fooParser []) (defn <\|> []) etc.
23:58	devn	that's a haskeller turned clojurian
23:58	arohner	devn: I know you know. Just discouraging foo-p :-)
23:58	devn	:)
23:58	muhoo	<\|> ??!
23:58	arohner	pipe is legal in variable names, though clojure-mode seems to barf on it
23:59	devn	muhoo you can write some fun fn names in clojure, it's sort of a fun little game now and again to play with ornate ascii art fn names
23:59	muhoo	for dsls
23:59	muhoo	i saw the actual lambda unicode symbol in overtone, and i went, wtf?
23:59	muhoo	i don't even know how to fucking type that