#clojure – 2012-02-15

2012-02-15

01:51	emezeske	Anyone know of a tool that can turn a javascript library into a "nice" externs file for the google closure compiler? (by "nice" I mean "doesn't generate a ton of warnings")
03:00	clj_newb	for classpath instead of saying foo/1.jar, foo/2.jar, foo/3.jar, ... is it possible to say foo/*.jar ?
03:00	clj_newb	[I tried foo/*.jar in zshrc, and it did not work; but I feel like there sholud be a way to do it]
03:01	alexyk_	i.e. convert nil to 0 and leave non-nils alone
03:09	bbloom	I'm only a few days into to "real" work with clojure… and I think I'm forever spoiled
03:09	bbloom	I never want to write a line of code again without a live running compilation environment….
03:10	bbloom	I've even got some crazy ideas of cool macros I can write with the clojurescript analyzer
03:17	lnostdal	hum, is print-level being bound to "no limit" (i.e. NIL) by default (root level) really a good idea? .. when debugging and looking at stacktraces and error messages, it sometimes causes the error message or stack trace to in-turn cause a stack-overflow x)
03:29	muhoo	hmm. midje or clojure.test ?
04:06	mrsep	#e
04:31	amalloy	$mail alexyk it looks like you were having connectivity problems, so i didn't catch your whole question, but you probably want fnil
04:31	lazybot	Message saved.
04:42	jrobie	what's the best emacs mode for clojure?
04:42	vijaykiran	clojure-mode ?
04:43	jrobie	thanks, vijaykiran - i'm just ramping up to play with the language
04:44	vijaykiran	if you are using any of the emacs-starter-kit or perlude etc, it should come with clojure-mode
04:46	jrobie	vijaykiran, i don't know about emacs-starter-kit or perlude
04:47	jrobie	ah, google says http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs
04:50	vijaykiran	which version of emacs are you using ?
04:57	jrobie	vijaykiran, GNU Emacs 23.3.1
04:57	jrobie	vijaykiran, it does not seem to know clojure-mode
05:00	vijaykiran	jrobie: you may want to use the package.el to load the starter kit, I'm not sure if you have any customizations already, otherwise, just download and start with starter-kit
05:01	vijaykiran	jrobie: the wiki page seems to have the info ( in the comments)
05:02	jrobie	thanks, vijaykiran
05:46	alexyk	hmm
05:46	alexyk	lazybot: ?
06:06	Raynes	lazybot: kill
06:06	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
06:07	clgv	alexyk: use $mail to get your mail
06:07	clgv	lazybot: kill
06:07	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
06:10	alexyk	clgv: privately to /lazybot?
06:14	clgv	$mail
06:14	lazybot	You have no messages.
07:08	Raynes	Yay for income tax.
07:12	ejackson	Raynes: amen.
08:31	osa1	what is "root value" of a var? I'm trying to understand `defonce`
08:31	ordnungswidrig	osa1: vars can be rebound locally, e.g. using "binding"
08:32	ordnungswidrig	osa1: ...if the var is declared as dynamic
08:32	Raynes	Some vars.
08:32	TimMc	Raynes: I believe that all vars, deep inside, have the capacity for change.
08:33	raek	osa1: the value you usually deal with. the exception is when the var is dynamically rebound using 'binding', as ordnungswidrig mentioned
08:33	Raynes	TimMc: That's very glass half full of you, man.
08:33	Raynes	TimMc: I want to be more like you. I want to see good in the world.
08:34	TimMc	Raynes: Well, you're in luck. I believe that all IRC users, deep inside, have the capacity for change.
08:35	ordnungswidrig	I was defonced and I to not want to be rebound.
08:36	Raynes	ordnungswidrig: Put that on a tshirt.
08:36	ordnungswidrig	s/to/do/
08:48	TimMc	&(do (do (do (require '[clojure.string :as s5])) (do s5/join)))
08:48	lazybot	⇒ #<string$join clojure.string$join@548695>
08:48	TimMc	\o/
08:49	TimMc	So nested top-level 'do forms are also unrolled.
08:49	TimMc	That takes a load off.
08:54	TimMc	Argh, I can't run deftest in a separate namespace for some reason...
08:56	TimMc	...and I can't run the contents in a different namespace, since that's not the top level.
09:12	clgv	TimMc: why?
09:23	TimMc	clgv: I want to run tests that are sandboxed in their own namespaces such that they can play with custom variations of 'import and 'require
09:24	TimMc	deftest is apparently not compatible with this.
09:25	clgv	ah ok.
09:49	aidy	What does the <int>M print syntax mean?
09:51	Raynes	&(type 1M)
09:51	lazybot	⇒ java.math.BigDecimal
09:52	aidy	thanks :)
10:00	babilen	Hi all. I would be grateful if you could criticize my code at http://paste.debian.net/156333/ . I need a function that splits a sequence at a subsequence and came up with the pasted solution, but am not sure if that approach is idiomatic or if there are better ways to do it. Thanks a lot!
10:00	babilen	I'd also like to have another function that splits at variable numbers of subsequences (in order), but I'd like to get the single sequence case right first. :)
10:01	tsdh	babilen: Instead of (empty? someseq), it's idiomatic to use (seq someseq) which returns nil for empty collections, so it's the other way round.
10:03	Raynes	Holy crap
10:03	Raynes	I'm starting to feel bad for contributing another pastebin to the world.
10:03	Raynes	There are obviously more pastebins than websites of any other sort combined.
10:03	babilen	Indeed :)
10:03	Raynes	At least mine isn't bright pink.
10:04	bhenry	can someone point me in the direction of the clojurescript one example (i think by brenton) that shows the commands to send expressions to the two different repls?
10:05	babilen	tsdh: Thanks - I'll use seq in that case. I am fairly new to clojure so I am not sure if loop+logic is the best way to handle this. I primarily want to have a function that removes a subsequence (if present) from a sequence and returns both prefix/suffix of that subsequence.
10:05	bhenry	Raynes: there's no need for another pastebin when you have gist.
10:05	babilen	I might use take-while/drop-while but process element-wise now.
10:06	Raynes	bhenry: Well, I obviously disagree.
10:06	bhenry	Raynes: well prove me wrong.
10:06	TimMc	Raynes: I WARNED YOU ABOUT PASTEBINS BRO!!!!
10:06	Raynes	Isn't really the goal I was aiming for, but I'll certainly try.
10:06	TimMc	I TOLD YOU DOG!
10:07	TimMc	I told you man. I TOLD you about pastebins!
10:07	Raynes	You did. You really did.
10:08	TimMc	http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/ for anyone who didn't get the reference and probably still won't after they follow the link
10:08	babilen	Ok, excuse me for initiating this discussion about pastebins and their merits, but is the approach I am using correct?
10:09	Raynes	I don't know. I'm still trying to get past your pink pastebin.
10:09	Raynes	I've used up my quota for today.
10:10	babilen	Raynes: Hehe, ok. I happily paste it somewhere else if that helps ;)
10:10	Raynes	I think you're okay.
10:12	ivan	someone should write a program that backs up all of the pastebins incrementally
10:13	ivan	except for pastebin.com, that's all crap
10:14	babilen	tsdh: How would I implement line 7 using seq? That is (or (seq []) (seq [1])) obviously evaluates to (1), which is not what I want. I am also reluctand to split this into multiple ifs.
10:16	TimMc	babilen: You're building up an awful lot of nested concats there.
10:16	Raynes	I like cats.
10:16	TimMc	I see a StackOverflowError in your future.
10:16	TimMc	Raynes: How do you feel about turtles?
10:16	Raynes	www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y
10:17	tsdh	babilen: DeMorgans law, (and (seq sub-seq) (seq s')) and reverse the branches of the if.
10:17	babilen	TimMc: True, but that is what I have so far. What would be a better approach?
10:17	babilen	tsdh: ta!
10:17	TimMc	babilen: No need for s', you can just call it s.
10:18	babilen	yeah, had that on my list already
10:18	tsdh	babilen: Maybe it's better to convert to a vector before and then use the fast subvec function. Then it should be linear.
10:21	babilen	tsdh: Ok, I'll investigate that. Thanks for the input so far!
10:21	tsdh	babilen: I mean, recur thru the vector v (= (vec s)) and check if the (subvec v 0 (count sub-seq)) equals subvec. if so, then that's the position and (subvec v (count sub-seq)) is the rest you need to concat to the beginning.
10:21	tsdh	babilen: You're welcome.
10:22	babilen	tsdh: That would essentially get rid of the backtracking, yes.
10:23	TimMc	babilen: I take it you want the subsequences to be lazy as well?
10:23	babilen	TimMc: That would be nice
10:24	babilen	Just criticize and give me some pointers, I am merely looking for other ideas or things that I unwillingly screwed up :)
10:24	TimMc	e.g. (first (first (split-at-subsequence (range) [10 10]))) => 0
10:25	babilen	exactly
10:25	Raynes	babilen: You're loud and your voice is annoying.
10:25	Raynes	Oh, you mean code?
10:26	TimMc	Raynes: You're over-quota. o\__/o
10:26	Raynes	Damn!
10:26	Raynes	TimMc: So, what's up with trycljs?
10:26	TimMc	Nothing.
10:26	Raynes	Guys, you've got to WORK on it. :(
10:27	TimMc	Hey, if you have any brilliant ideas on how to get it to compile correctly, let me know!
10:27	TimMc	s/compile/compile CLJS/
10:27	babilen	TimMc: So, how to be lazy?
10:27	Raynes	TimMc: You should get dnolen on board.
10:28	TimMc	Raynes: THat would certainly fix everything.
10:28	TimMc	"Pull requests welcome (especially from dnolen)"
10:31	Raynes	TimMc: Sounds legit.
10:36	pandeiro	is there a way to disable the property access syntax warnings with the ClojureScript REPL?
10:38	TimMc	Why?
10:38	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
10:38	TimMc	Nuts to you, clojurebot.
10:39	pandeiro	TimMc: dunno minor annoyance
10:39	pandeiro	if it were warning that I was using antiquated syntax, that would be one thing... it's warning me that i'm using the new, correct syntax
10:45	TimMc	Oh, weird.
10:47	clj_newb	is tehre a way to take my .clj, compiel them into a .jar, so I don't have to recompile on every load?
10:47	clj_newb	(I've done writing my editor; and am argely using it now)
10:48	clj_newb	and don't want to go through the recompilation process on every use
10:48	TimMc	babilen: Maybe you could have a first pass that converts split-points into (Object.) sentinals, and then a second pass that splits into subsequences?
10:48	TimMc	clj_newb: lein uberjar?
10:49	babilen	TimMc: I'll see what I can come up with. I tried a lazy-seq approach first, but my clojure-fu was too weak and .. well .. You saw what my best attempt was :)
10:49	clj_newb	I don't have lein
10:49	clj_newb	I have been coding i the repl athis whole time
10:56	cemerick	clj_newb: get lein :-)
10:58	TimMc	clj_newb: Dare I ask how you've been downloading dependencies, executing your code, running tests...
10:58	TimMc	I dursn't.
11:11	TimMc	babilen: First write a fn that checks if a seq is a prefix of another seq.
11:13	TimMc	babilen: Then write a fn that uses lazy-seq to iteratively either skip a prefix and cons on a sentinal or cons on the next element.
11:14	babilen	TimMc: Thanks -- I've incidentally started working on the first one just now. Great help and may you have a nice day :)
11:15	TimMc	babilen: Finally, write a fn to split on sentinals.
11:15	TimMc	:-)
11:20	babilen	TimMc: Hmm, what is the best approach to achieve the "iteratively" part?
11:24	TimMc	babilen: (source partition-by) Look at the call to lazy-seq, which contains some conditionals, which contains calls to cons, which then contains calls to partition-by again
11:25	TimMc	(It look recursive, but lazy-seq actually makes it iterative.)
11:26	babilen	TimMc: Oh, perfect example and exactly what I need. Wonderful :)
11:39	TimMc	clgv: Actually, the problem with sandboxing deftest seems to be that with deftest itself in a pocket namespace. lein test doesn't see it. >_<
11:40	clgv	TimMc: cant you just write a macro that doest the actual execution in another namespace and use that within a deftest?
11:41	TimMc	clgv: import, require, and other name-resolution or evaluation modifiers have to be in preceding top-level forms to the stuff they modify.
11:41	TimMc	I'm going to try using eval, actually.
11:42	clgv	TimMc: you do not need to use these
11:42	TimMc	hmm?
11:42	clgv	TimMc: you can intern the symbols for the testnamespace yourself
11:42	clgv	TimMc: have a look at the namespace related function in core
11:43	TimMc	clgv: I'm testing a lib that manipulates namespaces.
11:46	TimMc	clgv: It manipulates the namespace via various methods -- I would like it if the test cases could capture and confine that manipulation.
11:48	clgv	TimMc: sounds like a bootstraping problem then ;)
11:49	TimMc	sort of?
12:19	jkdufair	because i think in smalltalk and/or lisp, I can't help conclude, with forehead against keyboard during my day job that oo design patterns are nothing more than language feature workarounds
12:19	gtrak	norvig has a good site about that
12:20	gtrak	jkdufair: http://norvig.com/design-patterns/
12:20	clgv	jkdufair: they are as well vocabulary ;)
12:21	jkdufair	yeah, a good vocabulary is essential
12:21	gtrak	a pattern is something repetitive, what do we do when things are repetitive?
12:21	jkdufair	i get the impression in clojure there are fewer design patterns and more idioms
12:21	`fogus	write a macro
12:21	gtrak	wait for fogus to write a macro :-)
12:21	clgv	gtrak: name them? ;)
12:23	jkdufair	yeah macros are sort of the anti-design pattern
12:23	gtrak	just, abstraction in general
12:24	jkdufair	i think i'd seen that norvig bit before. at least the part about 16 of the 23 design patterns are simplified in dynamic languages
12:24	jkdufair	i think c# is like the cute girl/boy in choir in high school. hot & talented but you always end up in tears in the end
12:26	jkdufair	thx all for letting me rant
12:26	xorola	@jkdufair:How ? i am referring to c#
12:26	jkdufair	how what?
12:27	TimMc	xorola is asking you to explain your analogy.
12:27	jkdufair	oh it's a weak one :-)
12:27	xorola	:)
12:28	jkdufair	all these libraries and fast JITs and such. but when i want a class instance var like smalltalk it says "sorry, i don't do that"
12:28	jkdufair	you walk away a bit... blue
12:29	jkdufair	and i could probably start doing inner classes and whatever voodoo clojure probably has to do to kick things up a notch. but zawinski's law starts coming into play
12:29	jkdufair	guess it's not zawinski
12:30	jkdufair	greenspun
12:30	technomancy	the tyranny of greenspun is inescapable
12:31	jkdufair	tyranny is right
12:32	dnolen	jkdufair: I'm of the opinion that OO is powerful stuff - but like mutability - too easy to get wrong. I think Clojure's strategy of putting the OO stuff at the bottom (instead of at the surface) of the language is a killer, killer idea.
12:32	jkdufair	yeah i suppose i don't disagree with OO's power. smalltalk is still a great love of mine. half-baked OO like Java and C# make me cry.
12:33	jkdufair	and i wholeheartedly agree with clojure's strategy
12:33	jkdufair	of course, then you put JavaScript at the bottom and you wonder if someone put something funny in your drink
12:33	`fogus	(inc dnolen)
12:33	lazybot	⇒ 4
12:34	technomancy	MenTaLguY: any luck with that lein deps hack you were trying?
12:34	technomancy	I have a feeling it might be nicer on lein2
12:34	dnolen	jkdufair: the story is more complicated then that I think. I don't think Smalltalk is all that ideal either - C# and Java bring good stuff to the table.
12:34	xorola	can somebody tell me how smalltalk OO is different from C# or Java OO? a resource is helpful
12:35	xorola	i dunno smalltalk
12:35	TimMc	$google greenspun's law
12:35	lazybot	[Greenspun's tenth rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun's_tenth_rule
12:35	TimMc	haha, that one
12:35	jkdufair	in smalltalk, everything is an object. all the way down. so classes themselves are objects
12:35	dnolen	xorola: the purple Smalltalk-80 book is good, download Squeak
12:36	jkdufair	it's just more consistent
12:36	jkdufair	dnolen: i don't disagree. plenty of good stuff. and most of the time i like my day job. just not today
12:36	xorola	it sounds more like python OO, am i right?
12:36	technomancy	xorola: smalltalk is all about passing messages to objects
12:36	technomancy	rather than objects being a bucket full of methods where you reach in and find what you want to call
12:37	jkdufair	yeah python has many of the same design constraints as smalltalk
12:37	technomancy	python uses the bucket-o-methods approach, ruby uses smalltalk's approach
12:37	technomancy	more or less
12:37	jkdufair	ah i had them backwards
12:39	technomancy	self and IO I guess, depending on how far you want to stretch the definition of mainstream-ish
12:39	technomancy	Io
12:39	dnolen	technomancy: Objective-C
12:39	technomancy	oh, of course
12:39	chewbranca	erlang ;-)
12:40	`fogus	not everything in Smalltalk is an object
12:41	jkdufair	primitives may not be, but they can be treated as such
12:41	kurtharriger	in leiningen I'm trying to specify 2 sperate hooks, :hooks [leiningen.hooks.groovyc leiningen.hooks.junit] but this results in a Caused by: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: argument type mismatch if the list only contains one hook it works
12:41	`fogus	jkdufair: not talking about primitives
12:41	jkdufair	hmm. what have i forgotten?
12:42	`fogus	What is the Smalltalk object type of \|x y z\| ?
12:42	technomancy	kurtharriger: :hooks is just a declarative shorthand for requiring a namespace, so as a workaround you can just slap (require 'leiningen.hooks.groovyc leiningen.hooks.junit) after your defproject form.
12:42	jkdufair	alas. all values are objects :-)
12:42	technomancy	kurtharriger: but if you could paste your full project.clj I could attempt repro and see if we should open an isue
12:43	kurtharriger	ok, actually it might be something wrong with my junit plugin compile fails if that hook is included but test works
12:44	kurtharriger	I thought maybe I had the syntax for hooks wrong but might be something else
12:44	`fogus	jkdufair: One could say that I'm just picking nits ;-)
12:44	jkdufair	:-) it's an important distinction. one i wouldn't have gotten without learning clojure. more specifically having read Joy of Clojure :-)
12:45	jkdufair	awesome book, btw
12:45	jkdufair	just curious - do you get the same royalties whether i buy it from manning or amazon?
12:45	`fogus	jkdufair: Just buy from wherever is cheapest. I'm not getting rich in either case.
12:46	jkdufair	`fogus: bought it from amazon. just wanted to gauge how much guilt to feel
12:46	jkdufair	anyway, thx for writing it
12:47	`fogus	jkdufair: You should feel about $0.43 worth of guilt
12:47	jkdufair	haha
12:47	xorola	fogus:heard jeff ritcher and joshua bloch royalties are high ,is it true?
12:47	ibdknox	how far the writing industry has fallen :(
12:47	`fogus	no idea
12:49	kurtharriger	technomancy: figured it out, the first groovyc is in a jar and on classpath, I had changed my project classpath to src/clj but still had my leiningen hook in src/leiningen so it wasn't on the classpath
12:49	technomancy	tricky
12:50	kurtharriger	the exception changed when I tried the require form to the much more obvious class not found
12:50	babilen	Hi all -- I am a bit baffled by the behaviour you can see on http://paste.debian.net/156370/. What am I missing or doing wrong?
12:50	technomancy	hm; that is a pretty strange exceptino
12:52	cemerick	Barring a miracle, I'm sure I'd self-publish if I were to ever write another book (or any other for-pay content).
12:52	technomancy	I'm afraid I must have been less than totally clear; he says he wants to try out "my lisp implementation" o_O
12:52	kurtharriger	the werid thing is the plugin itself worked just not the hook
12:52	technomancy	cemerick: peepcode does all the video recording, payment handling, and promotion but still gives you half.
12:53	kurtharriger	At clojure conj I saw a guy riding a bike with a t-shirt reading "one less car"
12:53	cemerick	technomancy: I've never considered doing screencasts. Maybe that should change. shrug
12:53	technomancy	it's ridiculous
12:53	ibdknox	cemerick: as someone who might do that... I'd love to hear why :)
12:54	TimMc	babilen: partition 2 interleave is just map vector
12:54	`fogus	technomancy: ridiculous == lucrative?
12:54	cemerick	ibdknox: I'm reserving full judgement for a year, but you can ask me for details so far next month if you like.
12:54	babilen	TimMc: Right, but still -- Why the difference?
12:54	ibdknox	will do
12:54	TimMc	babilen: and this approach of counting, welll... better off doing a loop recur, I think
12:54	technomancy	`fogus: yes, but I was thinking more in terms of comparing it to the rest of the industry
12:55	ibdknox	cemerick: I would've thought that with oreilley's reach it'd be worth it
12:55	TimMc	Also, the subseq should be the first arg, I think...
12:55	ibdknox	-e
12:55	cemerick	ibdknox: well, that's why I'm reserving judgement :-)
12:55	mi6_x3m	hello, am I right that a clojure form is just executable data?
12:55	cemerick	technomancy: I think the prags do 50/50 too
12:55	babilen	TimMc: I am just playing around, but do not understand the difference in the behaviour. (which might highlight a more general misunderstanding I have)
12:55	technomancy	cemerick: oh, really? that's fantastic.
12:56	semperos	reading through the congomongo code, looking at how the set-connection! function "resets" a var; can someone explain why both alter-var-root and set! are used like this?
12:56	semperos	https://github.com/aboekhoff/congomongo/blob/master/src/somnium/congomongo.clj#L133
12:56	`fogus	Prags are notoriously generous
12:57	cemerick	technomancy: http://pragdave.blogs.pragprog.com/pragdave/2009/10/pragmatic-bookshelf-royalty-rates.html
12:57	ibdknox	but truthfully writing a book, especially a technical one, will never amass a fortune
12:57	technomancy	cool
12:57	ibdknox	it's the cred that's the reward ;)
12:57	`fogus	ibdknox: Maybe not, but certain authors can live comfortably
12:57	cemerick	ibdknox: Nevermind fortune, it's probably rare to make minimum wage.
12:58	technomancy	ibdknox: considering it only took me a month and I still get checks every quarter, both my peepcode screencasts were an excellent investment of my time economically
12:58	ibdknox	`fogus: I suspect they're the exception?
12:58	ibdknox	technomancy: I'll have to check out this peepcode thing :)
12:58	`fogus	ibdknox: Flanagan was living off of his JS: TDG for many years as I understand it
12:59	`fogus	ibdknox: Yes, he's an exception
12:59	cemerick	technomancy: is yours the only Clojure vid they have?
12:59	technomancy	my situation was maybe somewhat unique given that I was between jobs at the time
12:59	technomancy	cemerick: yeah, but I also did the Emacs one
12:59	technomancy	they've been focusing on JS a lot recently
13:00	cemerick	That's probably a big factor: if you're not busy otherwise, a book/video/etc is a great investment.
13:00	babilen	TimMc: Sorry, have to run now. If you have any idea why it works in the repl, but not as functions let me know. I'll be back later and grateful for all your tips and help so far :)
13:00	ibdknox	yeah
13:00	xorola	exception in the sense,js everywhere :)
13:00	xorola	so many buy flanagan's books
13:00	ibdknox	cemerick: anything that generates passive income
13:00	`fogus	cemerick: cross-sells?
13:01	technomancy	mine came out a couple weeks before the prags', so it was technically the first commercial Clojure documentation released =)
13:01	cemerick	`fogus: going to bring the atlas up to date and a general polishing; buy the book, get the atlas for $X
13:01	`fogus	Ahhh
13:02	`fogus	I only have Marginalia and Trammel to offer :-(
13:02	cemerick	Between that and amazon affiliate chits…
13:02	ibdknox	cemerick's building a little empire ;)
13:02	technomancy	every time I see Trammel my mind autocorrects it to Pummel
13:02	ibdknox	lol
13:02	cemerick	emphasis on little
13:02	`fogus	cemerick: Yes! I get one free book per year thanks to affiliate links. :p
13:03	cemerick	really?
13:03	`fogus	technomancy: That about sums it up
13:03	cemerick	`fogus: Is your only affiliate link on http://joyofclojure.com/buy-joc/ ?
13:03	arohner	semperos: alter-var-root doesn't change a thread local binding, I believe
13:04	`fogus	cemerick: that among 2 or 3 others
13:04	cemerick	oh, didn't see the amazon icon at the bottom of the home page
13:04	cemerick	`fogus: should put an amazon link right below the book cover on blog.fogus.me
13:05	technomancy	the word "pummel" has such a great background
13:05	technomancy	comes from "pommel", which is the non-pointy end of a sword
13:05	semperos	arohner: I understand that alter-var-root atomically changes the root binding
13:05	semperos	but I guess I don't understand why both of those operations are stringed together
13:06	`fogus	technomancy: We created a function named pummel in JoC :-)
13:06	semperos	as the root binding is used by default
13:06	technomancy	`fogus: refresh my memory?
13:06	arohner	semperos: a var can have two values: the 'root' value, which is what you see if the current thread is not using (binding), and the thread local value
13:06	arohner	alter-var-root sets the root value, but not the thread-local value
13:07	arohner	mongo uses both, set-connection! sets the root value, with-mongo sets the thread-local value
13:07	`fogus	technomancy: It just throws a bunch of mutations against a reference across a bunch of threads.
13:08	technomancy	nice
13:09	semperos	arohner: so it's just setting the root value, which will be shared by all threads not having a local binding, as well as the thread local value, just to have the local one set explicitly?
13:09	arohner	semperos: right
13:10	semperos	is it just to be explicit? am I wrong in understanding that the root value would be defaulted to anyway?
13:10	semperos	(sorry for beating this, just want to make sure I understand the nuances)
13:11	arohner	notice the check for a thread binding. If the the user did (with-mongo …. (set-connection!)), they wouldn't see a change in the local thread, because the previous thread-local would still be in effect
13:13	semperos	right, so after changing the root binding, it checks to make sure it's bound locally as well, and only if that's the case, changes the thread-local binding as well?
13:13	arohner	semperos: right
13:14	semperos	arohner: thanks for the hand-holding, I think I've got a better grip now
13:14	`fogus	OMG That video is awesome
13:15	hugod	`fogus: any plans for a marginalia release?
13:16	`fogus	hugod: I want to have 0.7.0 out before CljWest
13:17	hugod	`fogus: ok, thanks (I would love to have a 1.3 compatible goal for marginalia in zi)
13:17	jaimef	so you point lein directly at the clojure.jar via the env var CLOJURE_JAR and it bombs with ClassNotFoundException: clojure.main
13:17	technomancy	jaimef: yeah, don't do that
13:17	`fogus	hugod: Any feedback for v0.7.0-SNAPSHOT?
13:17	technomancy	CLOJURE_JAR is an implementation detail
13:18	jaimef	yeah well I unset it, it downloads it, then gets the same error :P
13:18	technomancy	jaimef: oh, crap. =(
13:18	jaimef	oddly was fine on bsd just bombing on linux
13:18	technomancy	I have checksumming in there to protect against corrupted downloads
13:19	hugod	`fogus: haven't tried it, since I can't run it from zi ;) - I should give it a go...
13:19	technomancy	jaimef: can you rm the jar, retry, and see if it gives a checksum warning?
13:19	jaimef	it download to ~/.m2?
13:19	technomancy	jaimef: yeah
13:19	jaimef	enoent
13:20	jaimef	ok nuked ~/.lein
13:20	jaimef	reran, it downloads the standalone jar for lein, then bombs with Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate leiningen/core/main__init.class or leiningen/core/main.clj on classpath:
13:20	jaimef
13:21	technomancy	jaimef: oh, you're using lein2?
13:21	jaimef	leiningen-2.0.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar guessing so
13:21	technomancy	on purpose? =)
13:21	jaimef	yeah LEIN_VERSION is 2.0.0-SNAPSHOT
13:21	jaimef	obviously I don't know better :P
13:21	technomancy	hehe; ok.
13:21	technomancy	if you just want to get stuff done, you should use the stable branch
13:22	jaimef	yeah pulled it from github
13:22	jaimef	thanks
13:26	technomancy	yeah, I have a warning in the readme about the master branch, but it's easy to miss
13:28	technomancy	would be happy to have help testing out lein2, but if you just want to get stuff done it's not the most convenient right now
13:29	jaimef	sure
13:31	jaimef	odd M-x slime asks to download items.
13:31	technomancy	that would be from swank-clojure.el; you want either M-x slime-connect or M-x clojure-jack-in
13:31	technomancy	M-x slime has been deprecated for Clojure for ... I want to say 2 years?
13:33	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: Is there an equivalent to clojure-jack-in when you want to kill your repl session, something like clojure-jack-off (sorry, couldn't resist)?
13:33	sorenmacbeth	I usually just kill the swank and repl buffers
13:34	technomancy	I just re-run M-x clojure-jack-in
13:34	technomancy	it knows to kill the existing connection
13:34	sorenmacbeth	ok, that is what I tend to do as well
13:34	sorenmacbeth	cheers
13:39	tmciver	sorenmacbeth: you can also comma "," followed by quit, in the repl, but as I may have mentioned here in the past (technomancy), the follow up clojure-jack-in occasionally fails in which case I must restart emacs.
13:39	technomancy	hm; haven't seen that myself
13:41	tmciver	technomancy: doesn't bother me much but I would be interested to know what's going on there. Could be my setup though I don't believe I'm doing anything very strange. Running emacs 23, if that could matter.
13:41	technomancy	could be why I'm not seeing it
13:41	sorenmacbeth	tmciver: I see, that closes the repl, but leave the swank server running in the swank buffer
13:42	Null-A	Has anyone gotten autodoc working with emacs24?
13:42	sorenmacbeth	The typical reason I want to close my repl session is because it can hog a ton of ram (because I have it configure to do so in my project.clj)
13:43	jaimef	slime -> "Clojure is not installed do you want to download?" Y-> fails, N-> Exception noclassdef for clojure/main
13:43	sorenmacbeth	tmciver: Hi, btw =)
13:43	tmciver	Hello!
13:43	tmciver	Did you get my email?
13:43	sorenmacbeth	tmciver: I did, that time should be fine
13:43	jaimef	odd thing is the same emacs config works on one system.
13:43	sorenmacbeth	I'll reply to the email now though
13:44	technomancy	jaimef: see above; that's been deprecated for about two years
13:44	jaimef	technomancy: yeah tried jack-in same error
13:44	tmciver	sorenmacbeth: concerning the swank buffer, I see that it is still there for me as well, but I don't get a complaint from emacs when I quit as I will if I don't kill slime.
13:44	jaimef	rather exits with error code 1
13:44	technomancy	jaimef: need to get rid of the swank-clojure emacs lisp package
13:45	jaimef	yeah already installed
13:45	jaimef	ahhh so it runs "cd /home/jaimef && lein jack-in 2621" but the error is "That's not a task Use "lein help" to list all tasks"
13:46	technomancy	it only works from a project
13:46	technomancy	plus you need swank-clojure as a lein plugin, not an emacs plugin
13:47	jaimef	yes I already ran lein plugin install swank-clojure
13:48	jaimef	will double check my ~/.m2 dirs between the two
13:48	jaimef	so "M-x slime" was replaced with "M-x clojure-jack-in" which only works on projects?
13:48	tmciver	technomancy: does the existence of the swank buffer in emacs imply that the swank server is still running?
13:48	technomancy	tmciver: no, the swank buffer stays open after the project exits
13:49	tmciver	OK
13:49	technomancy	jaimef: more or less; you can use slime-connect to work outside a project
13:49	jaimef	hmm ~/.m2 is the same on both. same contents. clj-stacktrace, org, swank-clojure. same emacs config, and emacs version. including same clojure.jar location.
13:50	jaimef	jre is different
13:50	technomancy	if it says "that's not a task" then you don't have the swank-clojure plugin
13:50	jaimef	ok I can rerun plugin install
13:55	mrevil`	for Leiningen projects is there a best practice for a directory location to store test data? Sorta like a resources dir, but for test. I need to store an XML file that is normally fetched by an HTTP GET in order to mock some functionality.
13:56	technomancy	mrevil`: dev-resources should do the trick
13:56	jaimef	rinse repeat
13:57	mrevil`	sweet, ty
13:58	technomancy	maybe it has to be test-resources in lein1; can't remember
14:32	dnolen	jaimef ?
14:34	jaimef	dnolen: ?
14:34	dnolen	jaimef: what are you asking?
14:34	jaimef	ahh more context.
14:35	jaimef	in ruby you can take any object and run .class to see what type of object it is, e.g. int, float, array, hash
14:35	cemerick	,(class 5)
14:35	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
14:36	cemerick	jamiei: ^
14:37	dnolen	,(class :foo)
14:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
14:37	dnolen	,(bases (class :foo))
14:37	clojurebot	(java.lang.Object clojure.lang.IFn java.lang.Comparable clojure.lang.Named java.io.Serializable)
14:48	jaimef	thanks
15:08	duck1123	Keep in mind, with clojure, you want to think more in interfaces and basic abstractions than in concrete class names
15:18	TimMc	&(class (list* 3 nil))
15:18	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentList
15:18	TimMc	&(class (list* 3 (range 5)))
15:18	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Cons
15:18	TimMc	:>
15:22	Null-A	when I call str on a lazyseq, it returns "clojure.lang.LazySeq@c0dddfb" even with a doall
15:23	tmciver	Null-A: (apply str mylazyseq)
15:24	Null-A	hm, what if I have a seq of lazyseq?
15:24	Null-A	i'll try that first
15:25	Null-A	Here's the code (defn fail [format-str & args]
15:25	Null-A	(throw (Exception. (apply format format-str args))))
15:25	Null-A	args is a seq of lazyseqs
15:27	Null-A	this works:
15:27	tmciver	what do you want returned? A string? seq of strings?
15:27	Null-A	(defn fail [format-str & args]
15:27	Null-A	(throw (Exception. (apply format format-str (doall (map #(apply str %) args))))))
15:27	Null-A	I want the exception to not print lazyseq@xxxx
15:27	jondot_	i'm seeing this for clojure koans, https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koans --> from amount of watchers i deduce its good, right?
15:27	Null-A	that works though
15:31	Raynes	$max
15:31	Raynes	~max
15:31	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
15:31	Raynes	Damn it.
15:33	cemerick	seems like a new-ish high, huh?
15:35	amalloy	pr-str, Null-A
15:35	amalloy	&(pr-str (range 3))
15:35	lazybot	⇒ "(0 1 2)"
15:35	Null-A	amalloy: ah thanks
15:42	foodoo	dnolen: I just watched your Conj video on match. Where can I find documentation for your module?
15:43	dnolen	foodoo: https://github.com/clojure/core.match, still pretty alpha, but the final puzzle pieces are falling into place
15:44	foodoo	dnolen: thanks. I wish clojars.org had a link to the homepages of the projects (I even searched github, but couldn't find it)
15:46	emezeske	foodoo: clojars will link to project homepages, if those projects include a :url
15:46	Null-A	Is it possible to change the toString implementation of an existing object?
15:46	emezeske	foodoo: so it's not clojars' fault, it's projects that omit the :url entry
15:47	dnolen	foodoo: core.match isn't provided via clojars, i should probably remove core.match from clojars.
15:48	dnolen	Null-A: in Clojure? no
15:48	Null-A	dnolen: I thought so, thanks
15:48	foodoo	dnolen: I think the good thing about clojars is that Leiningen can easily pull dependencies from it. I don't know if it supports git urls.
15:50	Null-A	dnolen: Is there any way to reset relation and index state in core logic? like retract-all-facts?
15:50	dnolen	foodoo: [org.clojure/core.match ...] will work fine
15:50	dnolen	Null-A: just redef the relation
15:50	Null-A	dnolen: hm, i tried that, but it didn''t work, i'll try again
15:50	dnolen	Null-A: there's no way besides that at the moment
15:53	zakwilson_	ibdknox: does korma know anything about postgres hstore?
15:55	Null-A	dnolen: Yah I get null pointer exception with var-get, then fact in stack trace
15:55	Null-A	dnolen: I put the defrel inside a function
15:55	dnolen	Null-A: probably not a good idea, defrel is meant to be top level
15:56	Null-A	hm, makes it hard to retract facts then dynamically
15:56	Null-A	i wrote a hack to do it anyways
15:56	Null-A	but it's not patch worthy
15:57	tscheibl	from a functional programming standpoint, is it wise to adhere to the "with" paradigm as e.g. applied in clojure/java.jdbc? ... or is it generally better to pass explicit arguments to functions and use dynamic var binding for commonly required data in a local context where you often just split functionality over separate functions not to facilitate code reuse but to increase readability?
15:57	dnolen	Null-A: patch welcome, the defrel/fact stuff could use some attention from someone - don' t have the bandwidth for it at the moment
15:58	Null-A	dnolen: actually I just got it working by binding ns
15:58	Null-A	I guess ns is not available during runtime
16:05	tscheibl	dnolen: btw, would you consider it better to fix the ClojureScript Compiler to not convert the \u unicode notation to utf-8 when compiling without optimizations or rather consider it as an undocumented Microsoft(tm) extension to Javascript that IE takes the utf-8 equvalents of \uFDD0 up to \uFDEF as equal and stick to the proposed fix (workaround, hack?) by replacing \uFDD0 and \uFDD1 with \uFDF0 and \FDF1 respectively?
16:13	dnolen	tscheibl: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5188679/whats-the-purpose-of-the-noncharacters-ufdd0-to-ufdef
16:14	dnolen	tscheibl: I'd rather not apply the patch given ^
16:15	tscheibl	dnolen: so it would be more adequate to fix the compiler?
16:15	ivan	Google will tell you that putting non-ASCII in your .js is wrong
16:15	ivan	IE does Noncharacter->replacement char in other places as well, like XDomainRequest responses. seems to hate them.
16:16	Null-A	dnolen: just submitted two patches on jira
16:16	dnolen	tscheibl: I'm not clear on what has to be done - do you have a proposal?
16:16	dnolen	Null-A: thx
16:20	dakrone	tb
16:21	tscheibl	dnolen: as you can see by running the tests I've attached it only happens when the code does not get optimized by the google closure compiler. So ClojureScript somehow converts the \u unicode representations to their utf-8 equivalents which makes (only) IE behave the described way (considering the "characters" of the mentioned unicode range as equal). What I would do is to fix the ClojureScript to Java compiler not to do the converion as it happens when
16:21	tscheibl	switched to a google closure optimization mode.
16:21	Null-A	i've noticed C-xC-k is much faster in emacs24
16:21	Null-A	C-cC-k*
16:22	tscheibl	dnolen: otherwise it's not possible to test non trivial ClojureScript apps in "development mode" on IE
16:24	tscheibl	dnolen "non trivial" was probably not the correct phrase... it starts to fail when it has to distinguish between symbols and keywords
16:25	tscheibl	e.g. when doing read-string containing keywords
16:25	dnolen	tscheibl: I agree it's a big problem. Just not clear to me where the problem is occurring in Compiler. Perhaps an artifact of Java strings?
16:29	tscheibl	dnolen: I could have a look at the ClojureScript compiler (in the meantime I should be fit enough with Clojure to understand what's going on) when I find some time, the next 2 days I will be quite busy in trying to satisfy a "nasty" customer.. but afterwards
16:30	dnolen	tscheibl: please do, what precisely does GClosure do to those chars under optimization?
16:30	tscheibl	nothing.. that'S the point
16:30	tscheibl	dnolen: it leaves the /u notation untouched
16:30	ivan	I think GClosure turns all UTF-8 into \u escapes
16:31	tscheibl	.. or maybe reencodes it from the utf-8 strings the ClojureScript compiler produces
16:31	ivan	can't you stick more backslashes in ClojureScript somewhere? ;)
16:31	mi6_x3m	can someone explain to me exactly what keywords are
16:31	mi6_x3m	I know they resolve to themselves
16:31	tscheibl	ivan: nah.. it's not Windows :D
16:32	mi6_x3m	what is their type
16:32	dnolen	tscheibl: oh ok, then probably a result of not escaping Java strings seems like an easy fix. Will look into, thanks for the clarification
16:33	dnolen	,(class :foo)
16:33	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
16:33	dnolen	mi6_x3m: ^
16:33	mi6_x3m	dnolen: do you happen to know what the type consists of?
16:33	mi6_x3m	some string description of the keyword?
16:33	mi6_x3m	some identifier?
16:34	dnolen	mi6_x3m: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Keyword.java
16:34	mi6_x3m	dnolen: ah, okay, sorry, I am all new to this stuff
16:39	ibdknox	zakwilson: it knows no vendor specific things
16:40	zakwilson	ibdknox: I thought not. It seemed very confused by my attempt to give an hstore field a map.
17:12	mrevil`	what should I be googling to find examples of mocking in midje?
17:12	TimMc	mrevil`: Alex Baranosky's email address.
17:20	Null-A	i'm having font-lock issues with emacs24 while editing clojure, has anyone else run into this?
17:24	wthidden	Null-A: what plateform is emacs running on?
17:24	Null-A	wthidden: osx
17:25	Null-A	it's odd, it wasn't happening until I recompiled clojure-mode
17:25	Null-A	slime*
17:25	Null-A	i might have upgraded slime in the process
17:25	dnolen	Null-A: I've had no problems
17:25	Null-A	hm
17:25	Null-A	i'll keep playing
17:26	wthidden	Null-A: hmmm, i've had little experience with OSX. I've had some issues in the past with linux
17:26	wthidden	Null-A: what is the error/symptom?
17:26	Null-A	wthidden: The coloring gets messed up as I type stuff
17:26	Null-A	wthidden: e.g. it doesn't really fix coloring when I use paredit to unquote strings
17:26	wthidden	Null-A: are you using color-themes?
17:27	Null-A	wthidden: yes but I tried without , and no difference
17:28	wthidden	Null-A: do you have some font-lock setting set in the customize section of your .emacs?
17:28	Null-A	oh I might
17:28	Null-A	i'll try removing it
17:29	wthidden	Null-A: I sometimes get over zealous with customize setting ... and thus conflicts
17:33	Null-A	wthidden: it's working now, but I need to wait longer to make sure
17:35	mi6_x3m	can someone explain to me whz
17:35	mi6_x3m	why* (def myfunc (fn [w] (count w))) is different than
17:35	wthidden	Null-A:good luck.
17:35	mi6_x3m	(defn myfunc (count w))
17:35	Null-A	wthidden: thanks
17:39	wthidden	mi6_x3m: well the first thing that jumps out to me is that your defn is form is ill-formed.
17:39	mi6_x3m	wthidden: yes, I know I missed [w]
17:39	mi6_x3m	it's a general question
17:40	brehaut	,(macroexpand '(defn mf [x] (count c))) ; mi6_x3m
17:41	technomancy	mi6_x3m: defn will give you better stack traces
17:41	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
17:41	brehaut	,(macroexpand '(defn mf [x] (count x)))
17:41	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
17:41	technomancy	the only practical difference is the metadata attached to the function
17:41	brehaut	bah, ##(macroexpand '(defn mf [x] (count c)))
17:41	lazybot	⇒ (def mf (clojure.core/fn ([x] (count c))))
17:41	mi6_x3m	technomancy: OK, thank you very much
17:45	dhmdhm	/_dhm
17:49	amalloy	technomancy: better stacktraces, really?
17:49	technomancy	amalloy: well, you could put a name inside your fn as well
17:50	ibdknox	you get the name of the function
17:50	technomancy	but a nameless fn sucks to see in a stack trace
17:50	pandeiro	is it possible to test cljs macros at the browser repl?
17:50	ibdknox	not that I'm aware of
17:51	pandeiro	ibdknox: can't get defpartial to work and dunno how to debug it
17:51	amalloy	mmmm, i don't think that's true, technomancy
17:51	dnolen	pandeiro: something that could be solved by some kind of reflection facility
17:51	ibdknox	pandeiro: get the latest crate
17:51	amalloy	(def f (fn ...)) compiles the function into a class named user$f
17:52	ibdknox	pandeiro: there was a bug in defpartial
17:52	amalloy	there's special magic in the compiler's handling of (def ...), that checks if the value is a (fn) literal and calls compileForDefn instead of just compile
17:52	pandeiro	ibdknox: thanks
17:54	technomancy	amalloy: huh; I guess that makes sense
17:54	technomancy	I wish it went the other way where the fn would get the metadata from the var =(
17:54	ibdknox	+1
17:55	technomancy	no arglists make for sad pandas
17:56	pandeiro	ibdknox: what are the special crate group attrs useful for?
17:56	ibdknox	pandeiro: if you use jayq you can then do things like ($ my-partial)
17:57	ibdknox	and bind events, or animate, or whatever
17:57	ibdknox	and it will take effect on anything that is created by that partial function
18:06	pandeiro	ibdknox: still no luck w/ defpartial
18:06	ibdknox	maybe I didn't push
18:06	pandeiro	looks like it's expanding into a call to crate.html()
18:06	pandeiro	but it returns undefined
18:07	emezeske	pandeiro: do you have a (:require crate.core :as whatever) ?
18:07	pandeiro	emezeske: yep
18:07	emezeske	pandeiro: nm then! that's bitten me before. :/
18:07	pandeiro	but not sure i would need it right?
18:07	ibdknox	you do
18:07	pandeiro	k
18:08	emezeske	yeah, anything that the macro's output references must be available :(
18:08	ibdknox	pandeiro: you restarted cljsbuild and and saved that file to get it to recompile, right?
18:08	emezeske	pandeiro: could also do a "lein cljsbuild clean" first
18:08	pandeiro	ibdknox: still hacking on top of one but yeah it has a handler that rebuilds cljs every time
18:08	pandeiro	let me empty the browser cache too (for some reason chromium is caching js randomly)
18:09	ibdknox	pandeiro: I have this crate and it works: crate-0.1.0-20120214.022223-8.jar
18:10	pandeiro	ibdknox: i have the master from github as of now, should be good?
18:10	ibdknox	hm
18:10	ibdknox	yes
18:11	ibdknox	actually
18:11	ibdknox	no
18:11	pandeiro	ibdknox: k
18:11	ibdknox	pandeiro: pull
18:12	ibdknox	I should automate that so that I can't lein push without commiting and pushing
18:12	ibdknox	committing*
18:13	ibdknox	people haven't been working against my source much, so it's never been an issue before
18:13	pandeiro	ibdknox: something's weird, the js looks fine but it still returns undefined... probabl something on my end
18:14	pandeiro	ibdknox: i am still working on something with one, soon i'll mix up my workflow for cljsbuild and jars and stuff
18:14	ibdknox	pandeiro: it's pretty darn easy these days
18:15	ibdknox	especially with the classpath stuff it's even easy to do the externs and whatnot
18:15	pandeiro	ibdknox: i admit the externs convo scared me
18:15	babilen	Hi all -- I am a bit baffled by the behaviour you can see on http://paste.debian.net/156370/. What am I missing or doing wrong?
18:15	ibdknox	pandeiro: it's easy :)
18:16	ibdknox	pandeiro: just have to add :externs ["externs/jquery.js"] to your cljsbuild params
18:16	pandeiro	ibdknox: you are pushing the jayq pretty hard :)
18:16	ibdknox	and done
18:16	ibdknox	eh, not really
18:16	ibdknox	just trying to convince people that things have gotten better/much easier
18:17	pandeiro	ibdknox: i will definitely try it, tell me though can it automate compiling a dev and production version like one does?
18:18	ibdknox	the only difference is :advanced vs. :simple, right?
18:18	pandeiro	yeah
18:18	ibdknox	sure
18:18	pandeiro	i run into some weird stuff with :advanced so i'm testing it every commit to avoid having to track down stuff after
18:19	ibdknox	you just need to switch a keyword in your project file
18:19	ibdknox	it's easy enough to have that happen based on env vars or something
18:19	technomancy	babilen: (range) is infinite
18:19	pandeiro	ibdknox: yeah could be in the repl module maybe
18:19	technomancy	if you interleave a finite seq with an infinite seq, you get an infinite seq =)
18:20	pandeiro	but i think one had an interesting idea putting that scaffolding around the app in the browser
18:20	technomancy	which is weird because map operates on two seqs but stops when one runs out
18:20	ibdknox	pandeiro: what do you mean?
18:21	pandeiro	ibdknox: well they have a handler doing advanced compilation wired up to a link on the top bar
18:21	technomancy	hm; I guess it should still work with laziness though
18:21	ibdknox	oh
18:21	pandeiro	so when you test dev, you just right click a link to test advanced in another tab, done
18:21	ibdknox	I see
18:21	pandeiro	it's clever since you have to be at the browser anyway to test
18:22	pandeiro	rather than having to go into the repl or project.clj specifically just to do that
18:22	emezeske	ibdknox: I just had an idea. What if I made lein-cljsbuild hook into the "lein deps" task, and clean/rebuild when that happened
18:22	emezeske	ibdknox: Would that make life easier when dealing with rapidly changing upstream jars?
18:22	babilen	technomancy: Yes, sure. But why does it work when I run it in the repl? And shouldn't all these functions return lazy-seqs anyway? (so the indefiniteness doesn't matter) -- I mean "(take-while #(= (first %) (second %)) (partition 2 (interleave (range) [0 1 2 2])))" works fine.
18:23	ibdknox	emezeske: you should talk to technomancy, not sure if things are supposed to hook deps
18:23	ibdknox	emezeske: it seems like a good idea to me though
18:23	ibdknox	pandeiro: something like that would have to operate closer to the server level
18:23	emezeske	ibdknox: thanks
18:23	pandeiro	ibdknox: yeah exactly, one is doing all compilation at the server
18:24	ibdknox	pandeiro: I've been considering bringing noir-cljs back, which could easily mimic that behavior
18:24	emezeske	technomancy: see my note above about cljsbuild hooking into "lein deps" ? does that make sense?
18:24	pandeiro	ibdknox: just tie it altogether into the ultimate framework, man :)
18:24	ibdknox	lol
18:24	babilen	technomancy: I just don't understand the difference in behaviour (emacs, clojure-jack-in, clojure 1.3 if that matters)
18:24	ibdknox	pandeiro: if I had more time I would ;)
18:24	technomancy	babilen: aha
18:24	technomancy	you got slimed
18:24	TimMc	:-D
18:24	technomancy	babilen: starts-with-seq? vs starts-with-subseq?
18:25	technomancy	must have had a stale definition left in the repl
18:25	babilen	sigh
18:25	technomancy	happens to everyone =)
18:25	babilen	damn
18:25	technomancy	emezeske: seems reasonable
18:26	babilen	technomancy: Thanks -- At least I am not crazy, just tired.
18:26	technomancy	emezeske: in lein2 there's a way to register your task as something that runs before every eval-in-project form. would that be sufficient for your use case?
18:27	emezeske	technomancy: yeah, I think that could work, although it might be overkill
18:27	emezeske	technomancy: thanks.
18:27	technomancy	emezeske: you could keep a checksum and only rebuild if you detect a change
18:29	emezeske	technomancy: you are some kind of genuius
18:29	emezeske	technomancy: and a genuius is better than a genius
18:29	emezeske	technomancy: why didn't I think of that? sigh
18:30	emezeske	technomancy: thanks! that will make things way better.
18:30	technomancy	emezeske: heh, well it's a bit more work, but if the delay is noticeable then it's worth the bother
18:30	technomancy	emezeske: we do a checksumming of :dependencies in lein deps in 1.x; feel free to steal the codes =)
18:31	emezeske	technomancy: the problem people have with cljsbuild now is that if an upstream jar containing cljs is updated, it doesn't trigger a rebuild
18:31	emezeske	technomancy: using a checksum will make that work like it should
18:31	emezeske	technomancy: cool, I'll peek at that code!
18:31	muhoo	geeeeeenius
19:38	TimMc	OK, am I wrong to believe that proxy can handle multiple overrides of the same method name? https://refheap.com/paste/761
19:40	TimMc	Can't push?
19:40	emezeske	Haven't tried that, but I'm getting 500s on the web ui :/
19:40	brehaut	TimMc: i recall hiredman saying that you have to do the dispatch yourself somehow for proxies in that situation
19:40	TimMc	brehaut: Huh?
19:40	dgrnbrg	Is there a protocol I can implement so that I can work w/ keywords as map accessors?
19:41	brehaut	TimMc: unfortunately it was a few weeks ago so i have forgotten the details
19:41	TimMc	Was this in this channel?
19:41	brehaut	yeah
19:42	gtrak`	anyone managed to get the midi example working with overtone? I can't tell if it's taking in notes, and I can't get the defsynth to play on its own
19:43	TimMc	brehaut: Found it, but that's about overriding, not overloading.
19:43	brehaut	TimMc: oh, sorry my bad
19:44	brehaut	TimMc: im pretty sure proxies are a map under the hood; (as you can monkey patch the methods later) its possible you need to provide a single function that implements both overloads
19:45	TimMc	ugh
19:45	brehaut	(invokePrim ([^long p_312] …) ([^double …] …)) ?
19:45	TimMc	Let me try that.
19:45	TimMc	Wait... that doesn't make sense, does it?
19:45	TimMc	THat only allows one return type.
19:46	brehaut	that does appear to be a downside of that approach
19:46	TimMc	brehaut: "CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't have 2 overloads with same arity"
19:47	brehaut	timm: oh of course. sorry :/
19:49	amalloy	dgrnbrg: ILookup or Associative or something. just check the source of clojure.lang.*
19:49	brehaut	TimMc: it defintely looks like it collects up all the methods as functions and sticks them into a map
19:50	amalloy	yes, ILookup
19:50	dgrnbrg	amalloy: thanks
19:50	dgrnbrg	but eit! github is down
19:51	dgrnbrg	where else is the sourceR?
19:52	amalloy	cloned on your machine, i strongly suggest (in future). way easier to navigate your local filesystem than a bunch of point-and-click on github's web ui
19:53	TimMc	yup
19:53	TimMc	Got tired of clicking around, finally cloned EVERYTHING.
20:05	dgrnbrg	I like clicking :)
20:05	dgrnbrg	i have rsi; it's a nice break
20:07	TimMc	OK. WELL THEN.
20:08	TimMc	brehaut: Any idea how to get around this?
20:09	brehaut	TimMc: no sorry. i got lost spelunking into the innards. you'll need to find someone more knowledgable i think
20:09	TimMc	I think deftype will allow hinting...
20:09	brehaut	that does sound right
20:09	amalloy	deftype allows the same things reify does, right?
20:09	TimMc	I'll need to redo the same stuff AFn does for IFn, but whatever... :-(
20:10	amalloy	i wouldn't deftype here unless you have to; they both have the same relevant features
20:11	TimMc	Ah, reify gives an object back, I see.
20:13	mdeboard	amalloy: Is that you introducing cemerick here http://blip.tv/clojure/chas-emerick-modeling-the-world-probabilistically-using-bayesian-networks-in-clojure-5953843
20:13	amalloy	no
20:14	brehaut	stuart sierra isn't it?
20:14	amalloy	right
20:14	brehaut	also is the full vid of that up yet?
20:14	mdeboard	brehaut: of?
20:15	brehaut	cemerick's presentation; it was abbreviated by accident i think
20:15	mdeboard	no idea where these talks were held
20:15	mdeboard	oh yeah looks like it's 13min long
20:15	brehaut	clojure conj 2011, in reaiaealeigh NC i think
20:15	mdeboard	oic
20:17	amalloy	good hedging there
20:19	amalloy	or maybe you were just making fun of pronunciation? i thought you were unsure which mess of vowels to use
20:20	brehaut	amalloy: i have _no idea_ how its pronounced at all
20:20	brehaut	and i can never remember how its spelt
20:21	amalloy	raleigh, pronounced rah-lay or rah-lee, by geography
20:21	amalloy	not that there's any reason you should care, i suppose
20:21	brehaut	oh right. thanks
20:21	brehaut	i hear it has a cool lemur zoo
20:22	TimMc	R'lyah
20:22	brehaut	F'tagn TimMc
20:50	citizenparker	emezeske: You around? Had some questions on lein-cljsbuild
20:50	citizenparker	(which is great, btw)
20:55	emezeske	citizenparker: Yeah, what's up?
20:57	citizenparker	I noticed you have an open issue around the possibility of incorporating a repl command into that plugin
20:57	citizenparker	Have you actually going a ClojureScript repl to work with files built from cljsbuild today?
20:57	emezeske	citizenparker: Funny you should bring that up; I was just thinking about working on it tonight
20:57	citizenparker	Ha!
20:57	emezeske	citizenparker: No, I haven't messed with CLJS repls yet
20:57	emezeske	citizenparker: But I am forming a plan
20:58	citizenparker	Some solution would be great. I love the plugin, but I haven't managed to get a repl connected via the generated files
20:58	citizenparker	I'm guessing it's because cljsbuild compiles them all down into one file, which the clojurescript wiki advises against
20:59	emezeske	citizenparker: Do you have a link to the "advises against" part?
20:59	citizenparker	Yeah, one sec
20:59	ibdknox	citizenparker: that shouldn't matter
20:59	ibdknox	I've definitely run the REPL after it's compiled everything into one file :)
21:00	citizenparker	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/The-REPL-and-Evaluation-Environments - in the example, it shows the files broken out
21:00	citizenparker	ibdknox: Oh? Maybe I'm missing something obvious then, hmm
21:00	citizenparker	ibdknox: with cljsbuild? or with clojurescript proper?
21:01	ibdknox	with cljs-watch, but that's equivalent to cljsbuild at this point
21:01	ibdknox	either way though, the files shouldn't really matter so long as that call to start the repl exists :)
21:02	citizenparker	Good to know! I'll recheck my work again. When I was trying with the cljsbuild output, I was getting some truly obscure JS errors upon loading the page
21:03	citizenparker	I thought that went away when I went to a pure clojurescript approach, but I could have changed something else along the way
21:03	emezeske	citizenparker: If you check back later, I plan to have something basic working in cljsbuild soon to make repls easy
21:03	citizenparker	Oh man, that would be dreamy
21:04	citizenparker	And I think would really help ease the barrier to cljs adoption
21:05	emezeske	Yeah, should be handy
21:10	cjfrisz	So it seems that function definitions with "defn" created inside the scope of another function are visible outside the enclosing function's scope in Clojure.
21:11	cjfrisz	This doesn't jive with my notions from Scheme that a procedure defined in the scope of another is only visible within the enclosing scope.
21:11	cjfrisz	Is this a feature or a bug in Clojure?
21:11	technomancy	in Clojure anything that starts with "def" shouldn't be called anywhere but the top level
21:11	amalloy	a bug in scheme </troll>
21:11	technomancy	if you want locals, use let.
21:12	technomancy	the difference between locals and "globals" in Clojure is much bigger than it is in most languages
21:12	amalloy	cjfrisz: that's a special-case rule in scheme that only applies to defines at the very beginning of a procedure, to avoid having to write a let or something
21:12	amalloy	which is pretty gross imo
21:13	cjfrisz	amalloy: Er...that's not true
21:13	cjfrisz	It doesn't have to be the very beginning of a procedure.
21:14	zakwilson	I've seen defun used non-toplevel in Common Lisp a few times. Those are global and were intended to be by the programmer in question.
21:14	cjfrisz	And it's just a stylistic difference as to whether that looks nice ;-)
21:14	shaunxcode	I think he means not nested lower?
21:14	amalloy	it's only guaranteed to behave the way you want at the beginning. scheme implementations may choose to make it work elsewhere, but it's not standard-compatible. that's my understanding from reading SICP, but i'm not a scheme expert
21:15	cjfrisz	I don't think that's true, but I'm not 100% sure, either.
21:15	amalloy	some quick googling confirms, with text like: Some implementations of Scheme permit definitions to occur at the beginning of a <body> (that is, the body of a lambda, let, let*, letrec, ordefine expression)
21:15	arohner	cjfrisz: in clojure, def and let have different semantics in clojure, so they're named differently. def always creates a global, regardless of where you call it
21:16	amalloy	There's a restriction on internal defines--they must be at the beginning of the procedure body (or the beginning of another body, like a letbody, before the normal executable expressions in the body.
21:16	cjfrisz	amalloy: They still don't break lexical scoping, which is the issue I'm concerned with
21:17	amalloy	"break"
21:17	amalloy	there is no breaking going on. you're using def, which is for globals. in scheme, some define forms happen to not define globals; i don't see how either of these involves breaking anything
21:18	cjfrisz	Ahh, ok
21:18	cjfrisz	arohner's answer is the one I was looking for.
21:19	cjfrisz	That was not intended as a troll, btw
21:19	cjfrisz	I'm sorry if it came off that way.
21:20	cjfrisz	I wasn't aware of the distinction of def for globals and was seriously concerned about the sanctity of lexical scope.
21:20	amalloy	no, i was </troll>ing myself for saying it's a bug in scheme
21:21	amalloy	it's obviously not, it's just a feature i don't like the flavor of
21:21	cjfrisz	I'm a recent Clojure convert and I'm noticing that there's a marked difference between Scheme and Clojure style.
21:22	cjfrisz	Schemers find internal defines to be perfectly nice.
21:22	cjfrisz	Not that either is wrong!
21:40	gtrak	success with the midi!
21:45	jkdufair	technomancy: I believe i have a fix for lein and cygwin. what's the best way to test? lein jar of swank-clojure then just copy to plugins dir? or is it more complicated than that?
21:45	jkdufair	i should say for swank-clojure and cygwin
21:59	dgrnbrg	Is it possible to get all the semantics of defrecord but override the ILookup interface provision?
22:01	cjfrisz	Stylistic question: is it standard to do all function-level documentation as docstrings?
22:02	cjfrisz	I've got some namespace-local functions, and I can't tell if it's silly to document them with docstrings instead of comments.'
22:03	duck1123	if you use docstrings, then those docs can be accessed from c.repl/doc and others
22:04	TimMc	cjfrisz: docstrings are standard
22:04	duck1123	so even if it's a private function, it's still worth it to put it in the docstring when you document
22:04	cjfrisz	Alright
22:04	cjfrisz	Thanks
22:04	TimMc	Comments can't be retrieved programmatically.
22:11	dgrnbrg	How do you override a function with multiple arities with deftype?
22:12	dgrnbrg	(deftype … IProtocol (fnname ([arglist1] body1) (arglist2 body))) doesn't seem to work
22:19	dgrnbrg	this is very sticky…I want all the features of defrecord except for the ILookup
22:19	dgrnbrg	but if I use deftype, I have to write a tremendous amount of code that should be autogenerated
22:22	alexbaranosky	one option might be to make your on macro for it if you have to do it more than once
22:22	dgrnbrg	I could copy the code out of clojure.core
22:22	dgrnbrg	but that seems unfortunate
22:22	dgrnbrg	is there a good way to delegate with reify?
22:22	dgrnbrg	or some other macro/lib, similar to Groovy's @Delegate?
22:23	alexbaranosky	nothing like @Delegate as far as I know
22:23	dgrnbrg	hack it is, then
22:27	TimMc	OMG, what the hell is clojure.lang.Util/ret1 doing
22:27	TimMc	and why does clojure.lang.AFn/applyTo use it?
22:27	TimMc	Is that some sort of bizarre GC trick?
22:29	alexbaranosky	TimMc, you're in the belly of the beast, man
22:31	TimMc	Anyone know if fn args undergo locals clearing like let bindings do?
22:32	cemerick	TimMc: I believe so, yes.
22:34	TimMc	Phew, I think that I can ignore Util/reet1 then.
22:34	TimMc	*ret1
22:35	TimMc	Context: There's a "tail call" in a Clojure core Java file which includes Util.ret1(arglist,arglist = null) -- arglist is one of the function's arguments.
22:35	TimMc	Util.ret1 simply returns the first argument.
22:42	amalloy	TimMc: that's how locals clearing is accomplished
22:43	amalloy	on the java side, that is (i believe. not sure about any of this)
22:43	amalloy	you call ret1, passing it a pointer to your thing, and then clearing your own pointer to it
22:44	amalloy	String x = "data"; someMethod(x); // x can't be GCed until someMethod finishes, because it's in your scope
22:45	amalloy	String x = "data"; someMethod(ret1(x, x = null)); // now x isn't referred to locally anymore when someMethod is running
22:45	cemerick	what amalloy said
22:46	amalloy	cemerick: you saved me the trouble of "just in case cemerick says anything, he'll be right"
22:47	cemerick	ha!
22:47	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:47	cemerick	I fall down faster than anyone else I know.
22:51	Tcepsa	I'm a little confused, if you're up for explaining this a little further. While I realize that x no longer points to whatever it was x pointed to (e.g. the string "data"), won't that thing still be ineligible for GC while someMethod is on the stack? If so, then what's the point? (If not, how come?)
22:52	amalloy	someMethod might decide it no longer needs its reference to data, clear it, and then keep doing other work
22:52	Tcepsa	Oh! At which point it can be GC'ed because the calling function no longer has a reference to it. Got it, thanks! ^_^
22:56	amalloy	right. that's an important part of how lazy sequences work - otherwise the closures they create would keep references to the closed-over variables indefinitely
22:58	TimMc	I was partly having trouble with order-of-operations in the call to ret1.
22:58	TimMc	But that's Java for you. -.-
22:58	amalloy	function calls go left-to-right
22:58	amalloy	just like in clojure
22:58	TimMc	I eventually decided that there was only one interpretation that would be useful, so I went with that...
22:59	amalloy	i was actually surprised in both cases that the left-to-right order is guaranteed
23:01	TimMc	I guess the JVM is putting evaluated args on the stack left to right, then invoking the method.
23:22	TimMc	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: Object
23:23	TimMc	I should really be going to bed.
23:24	TimMc	(Yes, it should be java.lang.Object)