#clojure – 2012-02-04

2012-02-04

00:09	_phil	can i use a single quote as part of an identifier, i.e. (def a' 5)?
00:10	_phil	it seems to work but i dont know if there arent any implications, e.g. with macros
00:10	guns	_phil: there are clojure functions like +' and *'
00:10	_phil	guns: so no problem?
00:11	guns	_phil: I assume not. I use it all the time myself (nice mathy feel), but I'm pretty new to Clojure too
00:12	_phil	guns: haha, bad bad haskell :D
00:13	guns	silly to name iterations of a variable x, x1, x2 ...
00:13	jkkramer1	trailing apostrophes are supported in clojure 1.3+. doesn't work in clojure 1.2
00:15	_phil	jkkramer1: thx
05:07	tfaro	.
05:11	Raynes	,
05:11	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
05:23	AimHere	,(Thread/sleep 1000000000000)
05:24	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
05:24	AimHere	Heh
05:50	bkolobara	Hi I just started learning clojure and I'm relatively new to emacs. When I start the slime repl (M-x clojure-jack-in) I can't access the doc macro. I get a message "Unable to resolve symbol: doc in this contex" and a RuntimeException is thrown. When I use the Leiningen repl everything works. What am I doing wrong?
06:04	raek	bkolobara: 'doc' is not in clojure.core since Clojure 1.3. you need to run (use 'clojure.repl) in the repl.
06:05	raek	"lein repl" does that step automatically for the 'user' namespace
06:44	bkolobara	raek: tnx
07:12	cmajor7	if 'defn' just a macro that is the "Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs*))", how come:
07:13	cmajor7	" (def f-seq (map f (iterate inc 0))) " returns lazy results with caching
07:13	cmajor7	and " (defn f-seq [] (map f (iterate inc 0))) " does not?
07:14	raek	the (def f-seq (map f ...)) example does not match the (def name (fn ...)) pattern...
07:14	raek	since (map ...) does not return a function
07:15	raek	each time the second f-seq function you defined is called a new lazy-seq is constructed
07:15	cmajor7	raek: thank you. so why is def caches and defn does not in this case?
07:16	raek	(which is cached)
07:16	raek	cmajor7: the first and second example are not of the same types!
07:16	raek	the body of a (fn ...) expression is never cached
07:16	amro	cmajor7: your second example is missing a (fn ...)
07:17	amro	er, first
07:17	cmajor7	amro: 'f' is a hypothetical (any function)
07:17	raek	as amro said, if you replace the first one with (def f-seq (fn [] (map f (iterate inc 0)))), _then_ they are equivalent
07:18	raek	then, both versions are _functions_, which create _new_ lazy-seqs when they are called
07:19	cmajor7	right, and hence _not_ cached.. ?
07:19	raek	the particular lazy-seq that a function returns is cached
07:19	cmajor7	"(doall (take 3 f-seq))", and then "(println (nth f-seq 2)) ; uses cached result -> 2.0"
07:20	raek	so if you traverse that particular lazy-seq multiple times, f will only be called once per element
07:20	raek	but each invocation of f-seq makes a new lazy-seq with its own caching
07:21	raek	cmajor7: yes, but in that example you use the same lazy-seq object in both cases
07:21	cmajor7	right.. that is the caching I am referring to
07:22	raek	ok, then you have to keep a reference to the lazy-seq object you want to keep
07:22	cmajor7	I thought that 'defn' is just a "(def name (fn [params* ] exprs*))"
07:22	raek	it is
07:22	cmajor7	hence a confusion where I see def/defn resulting in different behavior
07:23	raek	but what it isn't is "(def name exprs*)"
07:23	raek	do you see the difference?
07:23	raek	(defn foo ...) = (def foo (fn ...)) is true, but you did not use that fact in your example at all
07:24	cmajor7	are you saying that a "(map f (iterate inc 0))" part in "(defn f-seq [] (map f (iterate inc 0)))" becomes a function, where in "(def f-seq (map f (iterate inc 0)))" it just a lazy-seq bound to a name?
07:24	raek	no, that part is a lazy-seq in both cases
07:25	raek	but "f-seq" becomes a function in the first case and a lazy-seq in the second
07:25	raek	function that take zero arguments are not the same as the values in their bodies
07:26	raek	(defn x [] y) is the same as (def x (fn [] y)), that is, "x is bound to a nullary function that returns y"
07:27	cmajor7	does "(defn f-seq [] (map f (iterate inc 0)))" wrap "(map f (iterate inc 0))" into a function? Is that why the binding result is different?
07:27	raek	(def x y) is not the same, and means "x is bound to y"
07:27	raek	cmajor7: yes, it does
07:27	cmajor7	aha.. I think I see it now
07:27	cmajor7	thank you!
07:27	raek	that's what (defn x [] y) --> (def x (fn [] y)) is all about!
07:28	cmajor7	I was a bit confused by the "undercover" wrapping :)
07:28	cmajor7	I see now it makes perfect sense: every time you call x, an underlying fn is reevaluated
07:29	cmajor7	vs. just a binding where the reference points to a lazy-seq
07:32	raek	yes, the body of the function is evaluated each time the function is called
07:33	raek	(i.e. only the "y" part and not the whole "(fn [] y)" part)
07:33	cmajor7	raek: right, thanks!
07:38	echo-area	Is there an "assoc for vector", that is, takes a vector, an index and a new value, returns a new vector with the value at the index is replaced with the new value?
07:47	echo-area	Hmm. `assoc' can operate on a vector.
08:04	AimHere	echo-area > if you're looking for an analogue for a function between collection types, then try the function you want the analogue of!
08:26	gfredericks	what're these three elisp files in my .emacs.d/swank directory? should I be versioning them or ignoring them?
08:38	the-kenny	gfredericks: I ignore them
08:40	gfredericks	the-kenny: okay, thanks
08:41	the-kenny	gfredericks: They're auto-generated when you run clojure-jack-in for the first time. I wouldn't delete them, as it takes some time to recompile them
08:42	gfredericks	noted
08:44	miniyuki	to extract the set of keys of a list of hash
08:45	miniyuki	it there a better way than (distinct (mapcat keys [{:prop1 "any"} {:prop2 "any"} {:prop1 "any" :prop3 "any"}]))
08:46	miniyuki	expected result (:prop1 :prop2 :prop3)
08:48	the-kenny	If you want a real set, use `set' instead of `distinct'
08:48	gfredericks	I'm trying to think if there are any performance issues with that...
08:48	gfredericks	probably laziness would make it okay
08:50	miniyuki	thanks
09:12	TimMc	gfredericks: This is a test of the code we were discussing: https://github.com/timmc/kpawebgen/blob/master/clj/test/kpawebgen/test/munge.clj#L40
09:12	TimMc	gfredericks: And this is what implements it: https://github.com/timmc/kpawebgen/blob/master/clj/src/kpawebgen/munge.clj#L35
09:16	gfredericks	man I need a better way to get links out of a terminal
09:16	gfredericks	TimMc: I've never seen an ASCII graph drawn in comments before
09:25	the-kenny	I'm pretty sure emacs has support for this :)
09:25	TimMc	gfredericks: It was the only way I could keep it straight in my head.
09:38	pyr	hey! anyone used cascalog with s3 before ?
10:24	dribnet	Hi. Can anyone help me understand gen-class, specifically why I'm not making the constructor I think I'm making?
10:26	the-kenny	dribnet: Don't ask to ask.
10:27	dribnet	I have a very short :gen-class. It has :constructors {[] [foo]} and then later (defn -construct [] [[(thing)] ])
10:28	dribnet	Yet when I try to call (class.) later to construct with no args, i get "No matching ctor"
10:29	dribnet	obviously i have the wrong model of how this is supposed to work.
10:30	dribnet	I don't understand how the (classname.) could fail to resolve at compilation if i've declared both :constructors {[] []} and the -init [] methods.
10:36	dribnet	Basically my question is: what governs the type of constructor available in the class generated by gen-class?
10:38	dribnet	If I setup a no-arg constructor via :constructors {[] [whatnot]]} and then later implement (defn -init []) correctly, how is it even possible that the no-arg ctor can be missing at compile time?
10:45	dribnet	is there an easy way to make lein launch the repl in 1.3.0 by default?
12:16	dgrnbrg	if I'm writing something that uses (binding) to override a fn, but I want to invoke the previous binding in my new binding, how can I do that?
12:24	arohner	dgrnbrg: use a let to store the old version before binding the new one
12:24	clojurebot	Pardon?
12:25	arohner	(let [old-fn f] (binding [f new-fn] (f) (old-f)))
12:30	dgrnbrg	I did this: (let [old (bound-fn [args] (apply myfunc args))] (binding [myfunc old] (myfunc))
12:30	dgrnbrg	arohner, and that caused a stack overflow
12:31	dgrnbrg	I don't see why I can't use bound-fn here
12:33	dgrnbrg	Is there a way to make a defn ^:dynamic?
12:42	arohner	dgrnbrg: why do you want to use bound-fn? bound-fn is for times when you want to preserve the bindings across threads, i.e. when you want the binding value to appear in another thread. it doesn't appear that's the case here.
12:42	dgrnbrg	I want to preserve the binding under a different binding
12:42	arohner	it's causing a stack overflow because you're calling the same fn recursively
12:42	dgrnbrg	It seems like the logic should work fine in both cases
12:43	dgrnbrg	I would expect the bound-fn to cause the recursive call to myfunc to use the old binding
12:43	dgrnbrg	since the bound-fn should save the binding from when I called it
12:43	arohner	it doesn't work like that
12:43	arohner	bindings are a thread-local stack. new calls to binding push values onto the stack
12:43	dgrnbrg	so bound-fn is just pushing onto the stack?
12:43	dgrnbrg	not replacing the stack?
12:44	arohner	let's talk about only binding for a second
12:44	arohner	binding pushes onto the stack
12:44	arohner	but bindings are only thread-local
12:44	arohner	so bound-fn is for situations where you want to take the binding stack, and use the same values in another thread
12:44	dgrnbrg	exactly
12:44	arohner	are you using another thread here?
12:45	dgrnbrg	I'd expect it to work by saving the stack at the time bound-fn is called
12:45	arohner	the standard, idiomatic answer here is to use a let to save the value you care about
12:45	dgrnbrg	and then when I invoke the bound-fn's result, i'd expect it to swap the binding stack that's in effect for the one from the bound-fn, and then execute under that
12:46	dgrnbrg	but I guess it's not swapping the stacks, but instead just pushing the saved stack on top of whatever's already there
12:46	dgrnbrg	which is why it overflows
12:46	dgrnbrg	is that the correct interpretation?
12:52	tjgillies	does clojures STM have the same type of role as monads in haskell?
12:52	tjgillies	"Programs written in functional style can make use of monads to structure procedures that include sequenced operations,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)#cite_note-0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)#cite_note-1 or to define some arbitrary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_flow (like handling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrency_(computer_science), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
12:52	brehaut	tjgillies: no
12:53	brehaut	tjgillies: it has a similar role to the STM monad in haskell, not monads in general
12:54	tjgillies	i mean STM is not a monad by any means, but wiki says monads are for chaining functions together to handle concurrency and side effects
12:54	tjgillies	which is the whole point of the persistent data structures, thats why i asked if they play similar roles
12:54	tjgillies	handling concurrency and side effects, not so much chaining
12:55	Scriptor	er, persistent data structures don't really do anything special to avoid side effects, I think
12:56	Scriptor	well, they avoid side effects
12:56	Scriptor	but they don't do anything special to handle them
12:56	brehaut	haskell has persistent datastructures to, and it doesnt use monads to implement them
12:56	arohner	dgrnbrg: it does save the stack, but you're still going to have a stack overflow
12:56	brehaut	all the things haskell uses monads for can be implemented without them and still have pure functional semantics (eg, let, for, do)
12:57	brehaut	monads are just one (very elegant) way of defining them
12:58	tjgillies	brehaut: ah thanks
12:59	brehaut	tjgillies: look at algo.monads for a clojure implemenetation
12:59	tjgillies	brehaut: already was looking at it
12:59	dgrnbrg	Is there an implementation of a zipper that works on nested maps and vectors?
13:00	tjgillies	what does haskell use to update persistent data structures? do they have something like refs
13:00	brehaut	tjgillies: thats a confusing question
13:00	brehaut	you dont update persistent data structure
13:00	brehaut	thats the point
13:01	brehaut	but haskell does have a variety of reference types that are similar to clojures reference types
13:01	tjgillies	brehaut: you don't update them? i thought they were a tree structure that had history of previous state
13:01	brehaut	IORefs in the IO monad, TVars in the STM monad, others for other contexts
13:02	tjgillies	i guess im using "update" wrong
13:02	brehaut	,(let [one {:a 1 :b 2} two (assoc a :b 3}], [a b])
13:02	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: }>
13:02	brehaut	,(let [one {:a 1 :b 2} two (assoc a :b 3)] [a b])
13:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:03	brehaut	,(let [one {:a 1 :b 2} two (assoc one :b 3)] [one two])
13:03	clojurebot	[{:a 1, :b 2} {:a 1, :b 3}]
13:03	arohner	dgrnbrg: yes, zippers work on maps and vectors
13:03	dgrnbrg	arohner: I meant more of an existing API
13:03	dgrnbrg	it's tricky deciding what the API for traversing nested maps should look like in a zipper
13:03	arohner	tjgillies: they are trees, but they don't store previous state. The trees are designed so it's easy to make a new tree that shares state with the old ones
13:04	arohner	tjgillies: i.e. the "update" returns a new tree, but most of the tree that didn't change shares pointers with the existing tree
13:04	tjgillies	arohner: aaah. thnx
13:05	dgrnbrg	tjgillies: http://blog.higher-order.net/2010/08/16/assoc-and-clojures-persistenthashmap-part-ii/
13:05	dgrnbrg	pretty pictures of how it works
13:05	dgrnbrg	This image in particular is enlightening: http://blog.higher-order.net/files/clj/persistenthashmap-pathcopy.png
13:13	tjgillies	dgrnbrg: thnx
13:13	dgrnbrg	tjgillies: I found that post very illuminating
13:27	thheller	hey, I'm playing with clojurescript. is there any way to use console.log for output?
13:28	thheller	completely new to clojure and I really would like to see my data at certain points :P
13:29	thheller	(print x) only complains with "No print-fn fn set for evaluation environment"
13:29	brehaut	im guessing (because i dont know clojurescript) but something like (.log console "message")
13:30	thheller	ah been there
13:30	thheller	(.log js/console "bla")
13:30	thheller	that works yeah, but though maybe i can get print&co hooked up somehow
13:33	dgrnbrg	thheller: could you try (defn print-fn [& strs] (.log js/console (apply print-str strs)))
13:33	dgrnbrg	(I've never used clojurescript
13:33	dgrnbrg	)
13:36	thheller	print-str doesnt work
13:37	thheller	str works
13:37	thheller	but ouput is useless
13:37	thheller	too many lines :P
13:38	thheller	(defn log [& args]
13:38	thheller	(.log js/console args))
13:38	thheller	but output is a cljs.core.IndexedSeq
13:38	thheller	how do i turn that into a list? :P
14:06	dgrnbrg	thheller: that is getting way further into clojurescript than I know
14:10	ibdknox	thheller: if you want println to work you just need to add (set! print-fn #(.log js/console %))
14:11	ibdknox	somewhere toward the top of your cljs
14:11	thheller	hmm that kinda works
14:12	ibdknox	kinda?
14:12	thheller	(print {:hello "world})
14:12	thheller	logs as 5 lines :P
14:12	thheller	7 actually
14:13	ibdknox	oh right
14:13	ibdknox	just a sec
14:14	thheller	varargs in js seems fuzzy
14:15	mfex	thheller: how are you running clojurescript?
14:16	thheller	compiled as js und in the browser
14:16	thheller	(chrome)
14:17	mfex	I just use a console.log, although not often in advande compiled js
14:18	thheller	for "native" js types that is fine yeah
14:18	thheller	but (.log js/console {:hello "world"})
14:18	chrissbx	Are there character functions or predicates like "lower-case?" somewhere?
14:18	thheller	prints cljs.core.ObjMap
14:18	mfex	you can use pr-str to print cljs type things
14:19	mfex	ie compare (console.log {:a 2}) and (console.log (pr-str {:a 2}))
14:19	thheller	ah excellent
14:20	thheller	thats what i was looking for :)
14:20	ibdknox	wow
14:20	ibdknox	this is ridiculous
14:20	thheller	thx
14:21	ibdknox	it actually looks like the way the print-fn stuff was implemented is busted for the browser case
14:22	thheller	:P
14:22	thheller	(defn log [& args]
14:22	thheller	(.log js/console (pr-str args)))
14:22	thheller	is close enough to what I had in mind
14:22	ibdknox	yeah
14:23	ibdknox	that's what I did previous to print-fn existing
14:23	ibdknox	it's actually kind of nice not to do that sometimes though
14:23	ibdknox	for example, you can inspect dom objects if you don't pr-str them
14:23	ibdknox	which is often very useful
14:23	thheller	hmm true
14:25	thheller	but i'm fairly solid on the javascript/dom side of things
14:25	thheller	only the cljs part is confusing
14:35	ibdknox	pinot is getting dismantled :)
14:59	mfex	MJosa1
14:59	mfex	whoops
15:07	anttih	I'm trying to use a library from clojure.contrib but nowhere does it say how I should install the package.
15:09	anttih	the contrib homepage does not talk about this at all. Is there a reason for this? http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/index.html
15:09	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/index.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
15:09	Raynes	Only half-helpful.
15:09	anttih	that does not help at all
15:10	anttih	I've now tried to figure this out for an hour
15:10	Raynes	Well, it kind of does. You're on the wrong site first off. Second, you don't 'install' libraries and 'packages' in Clojure. Do you have Leiningen?
15:10	Raynes	Things work a little differently in Clojure. It can take you off guard.
15:11	anttih	Raynes: I have leiningen and know how to use it, but I don't know which jar to use.
15:11	Raynes	Okay. Clojure contrib was recently split up into multiple libraries. Which library specifically do you want to use?
15:11	anttih	Raynes: http.agent
15:12	Raynes	I'm pretty sure that library was deprecated. clj-http is an excellent HTTP client though. Let me pull it up for you.
15:12	Raynes	https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http
15:13	Raynes	The latest released version is 0.3.1.
15:13	anttih	Raynes: ah, saw that one
15:13	anttih	ok, thanks
15:13	Raynes	anttih: Have you created a project yet?
15:13	anttih	Raynes: I have
15:14	Raynes	I'll show you had to add the dependency, which is the equivalent of installing it in Clojure (these things are project-specific and hardly ever global).
15:14	Raynes	Open project.clj in your text editor and add [clj-http "0.3.1"] to your :dependencies list.
15:14	anttih	Raynes: I know how to do that :-), but thanks
15:14	Raynes	Alright, cool.
15:15	Raynes	Sorry you've had so much trouble. :(
15:33	skelternet	I am making this harder than it is.
15:50	dgrnbrg	Is there a way to merge maps and throw an exception if 2 keys collide (i.e. check disjointness of key sets) that's better than (merge-with #(throw (RuntimeException. "non disjoint")) map1 map2 map3)?
15:50	arohner	dgrnbrg: that looks pretty good
15:51	TimMc	dgrnbrg: You could check if the clojure.set/intersection of their 'keys is non-empty.
15:51	dgrnbrg	which would be faster?
15:51	TimMc	Well, if you're merging anyhow, just use merge-with.
15:51	dgrnbrg	if i'm doing this of 1M sets that are disjoint
15:51	TimMc	hah
15:51	dgrnbrg	and throwing an exception is ok?
15:51	TimMc	Sure.
15:51	dgrnbrg	I keep going back and forth on exceptions in a functional language
15:51	arohner	my guess is merge-with, because you'll stop at the first fail, rather than waiting for the whole intersection to finish
15:52	dgrnbrg	TimMc: I'm actually writing a cycle simulator now
15:52	TimMc	dgrnbrg: If you want to be fancy, you could use scgilardi's slingshot lib and pass info up that way on what the colliding key was.
15:53	dgrnbrg	I like slingshot, and I am already using it for other, more powerful things :)
15:53	dgrnbrg	you had showed me your feedback project earlier
15:53	TimMc	Is this something that should never, ever happen unless there's a bug?
15:54	dgrnbrg	Yes
15:58	TimMc	AssertionError.
16:01	dgrnbrg	TimMc: is it better to (throw (AssertionError. "non disjoint")) or (assert false "non disjoint")?
16:02	TimMc	throw
16:02	TimMc	There's no reason to do assert false.
16:18	skelternet	I don't see anything in noir to directly facilitate authentication. Is Sandbar pretty much the way to go?
16:20	ibdknox	skelternet: what does directly facilitate authentication mean?
16:21	ibdknox	all I ever end up doing is adding a pre-route here and there and adding some key to my session to determine if I'm auth'd
16:21	daaku	can't seem to figure out why travis-ci and one of my own machines fails with an almost identical java command with "java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.KeywordLookupSite.<init>(ILclojure/lang/Keyword;)V"
16:22	skelternet	ibdknox: well, in my dream world (add-middleware somemagic-that-forces-authentication-if-not)
16:22	skelternet	ibdknox: given my newbieism, it is probable I am making it harder than it needs to be
16:22	daaku	there seems to be a bunch of info available for that error via google, but nothing obvious about what is failing
16:23	ibdknox	skelternet: have you taken a look at the blog example?
16:23	_carlos_	hi
16:23	skelternet	ibdknox: for noir?
16:23	ibdknox	skelternet: yeah
16:23	skelternet	ibdknox: I've been googling all over compujre, noir, ring, sandbar.
16:24	skelternet	ibdknox: the tutorial on the webnoir.org website?
16:24	ibdknox	skelternet: it's a full sample project
16:24	ibdknox	hm
16:25	ibdknox	github seems to be having issues
16:25	ibdknox	lol
16:25	skelternet	ibdknox: oh, really? then that should let me figure out what namespace 'users/admin?' is coming from?
16:25	daaku	ah, lein expects $HOME/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/clojure-1.2.1.jar it seems :/
16:25	skelternet	ibdknox: if I can just close one loop, I'm sure I can get some traction :)
16:26	skelternet	ibdknox…will try to clone…hang on
16:27	ibdknox	skelternet: https://refheap.com/paste/625 it's in models/user.clj :)
16:27	skelternet	ibdknox: ok…now I see what you mean by github having probs
16:27	Bronsa	oh, then it's not just me
16:27	ibdknox	skelternet: basically when you login, simply set a key i the session
16:27	ibdknox	Bronsa: nope, it's toast
16:27	Bronsa	it took 2 minutes to push a commit
16:28	Bronsa	i thought i had network problems
16:28	ibdknox	it must've been me
16:28	Bronsa	ahahah
16:28	ibdknox	I pushed like 5 libs up in the past couple minutes ;)
16:28	ibdknox	and it's back
16:28	ibdknox	skelternet: https://github.com/ibdknox/Noir-blog/blob/master/src/noir_blog/models/user.clj
16:29	skelternet	ibdknox: thanks. so it'shomegrown to the noir-blog example. not sophisticated. (which is fine)
16:29	ibdknox	skelternet: yeah, it's usually specific to each app
16:29	ibdknox	in some way
16:29	ibdknox	I prefer the flexibility
16:29	daaku	ibdknox: a clojurescript-y weekend for you
16:30	skelternet	I just didn't make the leap to mu. I figured that it users was coming from somehting in the stack: noir, compojure, ring...
16:30	ibdknox	daaku: yeah, people were yelling at me for not releasing my stuff :)
16:31	skelternet	ibdknox: Thank you! you have de-snagged me.
16:31	ibdknox	skelternet: awesome :)
16:32	daaku	ibdknox: will check them out, i'm sure they're bad-ass
16:32	ibdknox	waltz is by far the coolest
16:32	ibdknox	the others are mostly the decomposition of pinot
16:32	ibdknox	and a jQuery wrapper
16:32	ibdknox	jayq does some really neat stuff to the jQuery object so that it acts just like any other clojure collection
16:36	wyan	is there an easy way to remap delete in paredit so that it fwd deletes?
16:42	skelternet	sigh github web site says "Something went wrong."
16:42	skelternet	hard to argue with
16:46	skelternet	github looks back up here
16:47	ibdknox	yep
16:47	ibdknox	seems ok
16:50	skelternet	ibdknox: I spoke too soon
16:51	ibdknox	still fine for me
16:51	skelternet	I'm seeing intermittent slothliness
17:01	emezeske	ibdknox: Would you be interested in a pull request for pinot that adds some more of hiccup's form_helpers and page_helpers stuff?
17:01	ibdknox	emezeske: I would like such a thing for crate :)
17:02	ibdknox	https://github.com/ibdknox/crate
17:02	ibdknox	pinot is dissolving
17:02	emezeske	I'm glad I asked, then!
17:03	emezeske	I'm using hiccups right now, but it seems to be kind of a mess
17:03	emezeske	So if the hiccup stuff is going in crate, where is the dom stuff going?
17:03	_carlos_	was assert-true form replaced by another name
17:04	ibdknox	emezeske: jayq
17:05	emezeske	ibdknox: so you are moving from goog to jquery?
17:05	ibdknox	yessir
17:06	ibdknox	the goog libraries are terrible
17:06	ibdknox	and I was rewriting jquery for absolutely no reason :)
17:06	emezeske	yeah? I am using jquery right now in my project, just out of ignorance of goog
17:06	ibdknox	all the arguments against jquery are also non-arguments
17:06	ibdknox	I'll add the rationale to the readme at some point
17:06	emezeske	I thought it couldn't be advanced-compiled?
17:07	emezeske	+1 to rationale, it would be great to hear from someone that's been in both trenches
17:07	Raynes	ibdknox: Might want to spice up that readme a bit.
17:07	ibdknox	emezeske: you shouldn't package jquery anyways, it should be google CDN'd (it'll already be cached)
17:08	ibdknox	emezeske: given a wrapper, all the jquery names will appear exactly once
17:08	ibdknox	then the wrapper names will get munged
17:08	ibdknox	so the size difference is in bytes
17:08	emezeske	very nice
17:08	ibdknox	and if you're optimizing at that level you shouldn't be using CLJS lol
17:08	emezeske	^_^
17:08	emezeske	I'm not, I just thought that was one possible argument
17:08	emezeske	(devil's advocate)
17:08	ibdknox	yeah, just giving my argument
17:09	emezeske	is jayq usable at this point?
17:09	Raynes	ibdknox: Wait, I shouldn't package jquery? Lies and slander!
17:09	ibdknox	quite
17:09	emezeske	I'm fine with alphatastic
17:09	ibdknox	emezeske: I'm building really cool stuff with them, so yep :)
17:09	ibdknox	Raynes: all of them need a lot of help.. I'm just putting them up for now, not really releasing
17:09	emezeske	ibdknox: That's great. jayq beats the pants off of my stupid-ass jquery stuff
17:10	ibdknox	emezeske: using the jquery object like a clojure collection is pretty neat :)
17:10	emezeske	ibdknox: is any of your cool stuff open-sauce, for example code?
17:10	ibdknox	emezeske: there's a fun example in the waltz readme
17:10	emezeske	ibdknox: great, thanks
17:10	emezeske	ibdknox: oh, pinot's remotes looked really cool; are you just using xhr for that directly now?
17:11	ibdknox	emezeske: they're sticking around with a new addition
17:11	ibdknox	a lazy-store
17:11	ibdknox	works like a map but fetches values from the server and caches them
17:11	ibdknox	lib = fetch
17:11	emezeske	where will they go? jayq?
17:11	emezeske	wow nice
17:12	ibdknox	https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clj-noir/wsCVajG0-YE/discussion
17:12	emezeske	aha!
17:12	emezeske	thanks!
17:12	ibdknox	I got the canvas stuff fast enough finally
17:13	ibdknox	also no more goog.dom.query dependency
17:13	ibdknox	which is a huge win
17:13	ibdknox	lol
17:13	emezeske	I as actually just looking at pinot thinking, "this should be broken up into smaller pieces"
17:13	ibdknox	well now it is :)
17:13	emezeske	mind reader!
17:15	emezeske	this is great. I was on the fence about reworking my app to use noir+pinot, but now I'm convinced, because I can do noir+the stuff I actually want
17:21	Raynes	emezeske: Did you just give drugs to ibdknox?
17:23	emezeske	Raynes: Who's asking!?
17:23	emezeske	Yes!
17:23	emezeske	No.
17:23	Raynes	Haha
17:34	tmciver	Is it possible to def a var inside a funtion, or is this something only a macro can do?
17:34	Raynes	You can, but you most likely don't actually want to.
17:35	tmciver	I was trying to be sneaky and do (def (symbol (str an-arg)) 5) inside a function. But I get an "First argument to def must be a symbol" error.
17:35	ibdknox	tmciver: macro time
17:36	ibdknox	but Raynes's statement is probably true
17:36	tmciver	Can you define a macro inside of another macro? Does that even make sense?
17:36	ibdknox	you can, but it's starting to get into very difficult territory
17:36	Raynes	Yes, you can. You can also tie yourself to a horse and slap it on the ass.
17:37	Raynes	You probably don't want to that either.
17:37	ibdknox	lol
17:37	tmciver	Raynes: that sounds like fun
17:37	ibdknox	macros writing macros is a scary evil place to be
17:37	tmciver	Yeah, and I'm a noob at macros.
17:39	raek	tmciver: you can do what def does at runtime using 'intern'
17:39	amalloy	(inc raek)
17:39	raek	but you shouldn't do that at runtime
17:39	muhoo	doh http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-141
17:39	amalloy	but also, probably better not to do any of those things
17:40	raek	since modifying vars is not a thread safe operation
17:40	raek	and is probably bad for many other reasons
17:40	tmciver	Yeah, that stuff sounds a little out of my league at this point.
17:41	ibdknox	wtf is going on with github
17:42	tmciver	But out of curiousity, why does (def (symbol (str an-arg)) 5) give me a "First argument to def must be a symbol" error?
17:42	skelternet	lots of tweets on it. dunno. may not be related but github had a party last night
17:42	ibdknox	apparently their loadbalancer is freaking out
17:42	ibdknox	https://status.github.com/
17:43	amalloy	tmciver: because the first argument to def must be a symbol at compile-time, and you're giving it a list
17:43	ibdknox	tmciver: because def doesn't evaluate its first argument
17:43	tmciver	Ah, OK. Thanks.
17:43	Raynes	Because amalloy said so.
17:44	muhoo	what does github actually run on / written in?
17:44	amalloy	mostly ruby, right?
17:44	ibdknox	yes
17:44	ibdknox	on rackspace
17:45	Raynes	Turtles all the way down.
18:11	gtrak	are you supposed to :import records?
18:13	amalloy	yes
18:22	TimMc	tmciver: `(def ~name ~val-expr) in the macro
18:26	Raynes	Yay! lein 2 native deps extraction.
18:26	TimMc	tmciver: How goes the rewrite?
18:26	TimMc	Raynes: w00t!
18:48	daaku	it seems like my failure was this bug: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/355 -- is there some way to exclude clojure from dev-dependencies as a whole instead of having to put a :exclude on each of my 4 dev-dependencies?
18:49	daaku	oh hey, :exclusions works for this. problem solved
18:53	TimMc	daaku: If you had to use Maven for that, you'd have to exclude for each. :-(
18:54	daaku	TimMc: good thing i didn't :) travis-ci worked with this change
18:57	Raynes	Leiningen does not have any bugs.
18:57	Raynes	Anything that ever happens that isn't expected is a malfunction of your computer's hardware.
19:01	ibdknox	Raynes: is your keyboard pluggedin? have you reset your router?
19:01	Raynes	Heh
19:03	tmciver	TimMc: eh, so so. I knew there was a reason I put off learning macros.
19:06	TimMc	tmciver: I think this is probably a good usecase for pair-programming.
19:07	tmciver	Yes. In fact...PM
19:07	TimMc	Currently cooking, so may not be of too much use...
19:07	tmciver	What?! drop what you're doing and help me! ;)
19:08	tmciver	OK, I'll PM you - read it later.
19:08	tmciver	I wanted to follow the definition of import-field in the let,
19:08	tmciver	oop
19:16	arohner	is there a way to make git use a diffing algorithm that understands s-exprs? git merge always mangles my clojure
19:17	TimMc	arohner: Put your trailing parens on a separate line JUST KIDDING
19:18	arohner	:-)
19:22	Raynes	TimMc arohner: Psh. Real men put them in separate files.
19:24	emezeske	ibdknox: how up-to-date are the fetch/jayq/crate jars on clojars? they seem a bit old maybe
19:25	ibdknox	one sec, I'll push all of them
19:25	emezeske	you da' man!
19:25	ibdknox	everything should be up to date
19:26	ibdknox	you'll have to clear out your ~/.m2/ cache for them though
19:27	emezeske	ryokai!
19:41	gtrak	is it alright to use repl-utils in dev-dependencies or is there a better way, like a global way?
19:43	TimMc	gtrak: I think you can 'require it in ~/.lein/init.clj or whatever it is
19:44	TimMc	or is it user.clj?
19:50	gtrak	TimMc: ah, thanks, I'll give that a go
19:56	muhoo	iirc, git just calls the unix diff utility, no?
19:56	gtrak	oh, dammit, apropos is in clojure.repl :-)
19:56	muhoo	there may be flags to diff that handle lisps more elegantly. i'd imagine over the last 40 years someone would have come up with one.
19:56	TimMc	muhoo: Yeah, but you can swap that out.
19:57	TimMc	Oh, but it might require a line-oriented diff.
19:59	TimMc	Isn't it more like 50 years at this point? Kind of amazing.
19:59	muhoo	diff?
19:59	muhoo	can't be older than unix
19:59	muhoo	well, maybe it can. i dunno if it predated unix.
20:00	TimMc	Oh, I thought you meant diff tools for lisp.
20:00	TimMc	not the unix diff tool
20:01	muhoo	diff apparently was born in 1974. hmm, if there were a clojure-written diff tool that deallt with clojure code, and it could be plugged into git as a replacement for unix diff, that'd be kinda neat.
20:02	TimMc	I guess before that, people just diffed visually.
20:02	gtrak	muhoo: once you start doing that, you might as well go full structural
20:03	muhoo	heh, the unified diff format we know and love is only from 1990 (gnu)
20:04	muhoo	i don't have time to try to write a diff/patch tool in clj that is semantically-aware of clojure and works with git, but it'd be a neat project.
20:05	brehaut	doesnt unix diff only so 2 point diff, and gits diff do 3 point?
20:05	brehaut	structural diffing is another usecase for the much discussed lossless reader
20:05	Raynes	diff is my hero.
20:07	clj_newb	(ns ... (:import (foo.bar.doh Cat Dog))) ends up defining Cat, Dog in the local namespace. I want to be able to do foo.bar.blah.Cat foo.bar.blah.Dog, but not have Cat/Dog defined in the local namespace. How can I make this happen?
20:07	clj_newb	s/doh/blah/
20:09	clj_newb	basically, I want to be able to :require java packages
20:10	TimMc	clj_newb: Just skip the import, then!
20:10	TimMc	It totally works.
20:11	TimMc	,File
20:11	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: File in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
20:11	TimMc	,java.io.File
20:11	clojurebot	java.io.File
20:11	clj_newb	TimMc: how does this work
20:12	clj_newb	is the jvm , while interpreting clojure, is there like:
20:12	clj_newb	hmm, I see you need foo.bar.blah.Cat
20:12	clj_newb	so i'll just auto load it?
20:13	TimMc	clj_newb: I think so? Or maybe everything on the classpath is auotmatically loaded.
20:13	TimMc	Anyway, fully-resolved classnames simply work.
20:16	amalloy	every class on the classpath is loaded as necessary
20:49	oakwise	how do I properly wrap docstrings in clojure-mode emacs?
20:49	TimMc	As in, rewrap the text?
20:49	oakwise	yes
20:50	oakwise	it seems to want to put wrapped lines at col 0
20:50	oakwise	instead of indented
20:50	oakwise	possibly because I'm using evil mode's wrap and I don't know how to do it the emacs way :)
20:51	TimMc	Hmm. I tend to not indent, actually.
20:52	oakwise	TinMc: oh. Is that idiomatic?
20:53	oakwise	hm. core seems to indent afaict.
20:53	TimMc	No idea. It seems readable, though, so I don't worry too much about it.
20:54	TimMc	oakwise: Core is a mish-mash of different coding styles.
20:54	oakwise	fair
20:54	dgrnbrg	what namespace is -?> in?
20:56	gtrak	I just popped the macro cherry
20:56	gtrak	watch out, world!
20:57	TimMc	dgrnbrg: I don't think it made it out of contrib.
20:57	dgrnbrg	ah
20:58	dgrnbrg	I have another way with if-let
20:58	TimMc	You could write it yourself, too.
20:58	dgrnbrg	brain...hurts...
20:58	TimMc	Wait, there's a reference to "incubator" in my chat logs...
20:59	TimMc	dgrnbrg: https://github.com/clojure/core.incubator
21:00	dgrnbrg	TimMc: awesome, thanks!
21:10	oakwise	TimMc: if you're curious, using technomancy's clojure-mode and then `M-x clojure-fill-docstring` did what I was looking for
21:11	cliffordjames	can someone explain a clojure idiom for traversing a lazy-seq? like seq.each { ... } if you are familiar w/ ruby or groovy. Should i use recur?
21:11	dgrnbrg	cliffordjames: do you want each{} like in groovy or collect{} or inject{}?
21:12	dgrnbrg	that is, do you want to have side effects be the purpose or do you want to build a new result?
21:12	chjames	build a new result in this case
21:12	dgrnbrg	groovy's collect is clojure's map
21:12	dgrnbrg	approximately, but clojure's is more powerful
21:12	dgrnbrg	groovy's inject is clojure's reduce, basically
21:12	chjames	and that doesn't load the whole seq in memory right?
21:13	chjames	ok
21:13	dgrnbrg	it's all lazy
21:13	chjames	cool
21:13	dgrnbrg	you can use doseq to force the evaluate of a lazy sequence RIGHT NOW and throw away the result (only side effects)
21:14	dgrnbrg	doall does the same, but retains the head, so that the sequence is resident in memory
21:14	chjames	well i am parsing a lazy seq from a csv library so basically i just want to map my 'parse' function onto the seq and return the result as a collection
21:15	TimMc	Yeah, map is the answer.
21:15	dgrnbrg	if you want python-style comprhensions, check out for
21:21	dgrnbrg	I want to write this--how can I? (let [x [(fn [] x) 2]])
21:22	dnolen	dgrnbrg: not possible
21:22	dgrnbrg	I see
21:23	dnolen	dgrnbrg: I think Scheme-like letrec would make that work, but no one's stepped up with a patch
21:24	dgrnbrg	dnolen: That's what it seems like to me
21:24	dgrnbrg	I know that letfn has special recursion support
21:24	dgrnbrg	for now, i'll use the fact that I have referential transparency to recur at a different level
21:43	chjames	is there a way to make multimethods (declared with defmethod) private (like defn- does for funcs) ?
21:43	gtrak	so, if I want to run a macro a number of times in my ns, can I do it with a for?
21:43	dgrnbrg	gtrak: no, since macros happen before code gets executed
21:44	dgrnbrg	chjames: maybe try (defmulti name {:private true} …)
21:44	gtrak	for itself is a macro
21:44	gtrak	so, I should wrap the for in a macro and call it perhaps?
21:45	dgrnbrg	chjames: many def macros accept the meta list, and I think :private makes it private
21:45	dgrnbrg	gtrak: what are you trying to do? what you've said so far doesn't make enough sense to me
21:45	clj_newb	is there a way to auto serialize defrecord ?
21:45	gtrak	dgrnbrg: basically I've made a macro that creates deftests for me based on a list of filenames, I'll paste in a sec
21:46	chjames	ok...i saw that in the clojure.java.io code here: http://bit.ly/zv35uZ that it was putting a bunch of defmethods for do-copy into the public ns
21:46	gtrak	dgrnbrg: ah, I think it was a name collision for my variable causing a problem, seems to work now
21:47	chjames	(at least it appeared to be...i'm new to clojure)
21:54	gtrak	dgrnbrg: so, now it's only doing the last in the list :-) https://gist.github.com/1742220
21:54	gtrak	but it's printing all of them
21:54	dgrnbrg	exactly
21:55	dgrnbrg	remember, a macro returns a piece of code to get pasted in
21:55	gtrak	ah,
21:55	gtrak	but you can see what I'm trying to do :-)
21:56	dgrnbrg	you need to do something like (def my-tests (map (fn [t] `(create-test ~t nil)) inputs))
21:56	dgrnbrg	then, do `(do ~@my-tests) at the end of the create-tests macro
21:56	gtrak	yea, I was just thinking of wrapping the for in a do
21:56	dgrnbrg	(but use a let instead)
21:57	gtrak	why the splice? i haven't used one of those yet
21:57	dgrnbrg	the map is making a list of the syntax bits that say (create-test t nil)
21:57	dgrnbrg	and you want to generate something like (do (create-test t0 nil) (create-test t1 nil) (create-test t2 nil))
21:58	dgrnbrg	so you splice all the syntactic bits into the do
22:00	gtrak	ah, so is the splice just un-nesting a seq?
22:00	dgrnbrg	yeah
22:00	dgrnbrg	suppose x = [1 2]
22:01	dgrnbrg	then `(do ~x) is '(do [1 2])
22:01	dgrnbrg	and `(do ~@x) is '(do 1 2)
22:01	gtrak	like a apply kind of
22:02	dgrnbrg	it's really like a splice
22:02	dgrnbrg	;)
22:02	gtrak	thanks
22:06	clj_newb	this is the question I should have asked ages ago. After defining (defprotocol IFoo ...), how do I check if a given object satisfies protocol IFoo ?
22:07	dgrnbrg	,(doc satisfies?)
22:07	clojurebot	"([protocol x]); Returns true if x satisfies the protocol"
22:11	gtrak	works
22:13	gtrak	it's odd that macros are expanded at compile-time, but the run-time initialization can be scattered around it physically above and below in source code
22:17	clj_newb	dumb question
22:17	clj_newb	how doesa functions vs protocls get resolved?
22:18	clj_newb	i.e. suppose I define a (IOpen ... (open [ ... ])) and a (defn open [... ])
22:18	clj_newb	how does clojure figure out which open gets resolved?
22:18	brehaut	protocols create functions in the namespace they are defined in
22:18	clj_newb	brehaut: are these "functions" really multimethods that dispatch solely on the first argument?
22:18	brehaut	no
22:18	brehaut	what would the point of that be? we already have multis
22:20	clj_newb	brehaut: how are functions defined by protocols implemented?
22:20	brehaut	magic
22:20	clj_newb	gryffindor or slytherin magic?
22:21	brehaut	alhazreds
22:21	brehaut	a protocol creates a backing interface, a series of functions for each method in the protocl, and a protocol map thing
22:22	brehaut	implementations either a) directly implement the interface when defined (using deftype or defrecord frinstance and implementing the protocol in the definition) or b) use extend-type or extend-protocol which updates the protocol map thing
22:23	brehaut	clj_newb: open up a repl, create a simple protocol and examining the objects and calling (class …) and (supers (class …)) on the various bits
22:25	brehaut	most of the magic happens inside the functions though; they (i think) use javas type directed polymorphism and implement call-site caches to determine the implementation function
22:25	brehaut	s/function$/method/
22:25	clj_newb	brehaut: "examine" an object <-- something more advanced than pprint?
22:26	brehaut	even simpler
22:26	brehaut	just enter the symbol and press enter
22:26	brehaut	its particularly revealing for the protocol itself
22:27	brehaut	eg, (defprotocol Foo (frobtz [this that])) Foo
22:27	brehaut	(class Foo) is also interesting
22:27	clj_newb	interesting
22:27	clj_newb	I like how everything is basically a gigantic map
22:28	brehaut	joy of clojure has a good section on protocols
22:28	brehaut	theres some cool stuff on creating mixin implementations
22:29	brehaut	(which takes advantage of the fact that its all maps under the hood)
23:05	chjames	arrg...i'm still unsure about the laziness in clojure...can someone tell me if this code is reading the whole lazy-seq from (csv/read-csv rdr) in memory in the (read-hitting-stats) f()? https://gist.github.com/1742587
23:07	ibdknox	chjames: doall forces the lazy-seq to be realized
23:07	brehaut	chjames: the doall in read-hitting-stats is going to fully realize the seq, effectively stripping out the laziness
23:07	ibdknox	so yes
23:07	ibdknox	hah!
23:07	ibdknox	I won this time ;)
23:07	brehaut	rats!
23:09	chjames	ok...that makes sense...i tried to write a lazy version and i kept getting IOExceptions due to the (with-open ...) closing the stream...so I think i HAVE to realize the collection unless i do everything with an iterator style approach and act on individual rows
23:11	ibdknox	chjames: correct
23:17	Raynes	ibdknox: You've been around more today than you have in your whole IRC career.
23:17	ibdknox	totally not true
23:17	ibdknox	I used to be on a bunch for a while
23:17	Raynes	technomancy_: is annoyingly absent today.
23:17	Raynes	I finally implement native deps
23:17	ibdknox	lol
23:17	Raynes	How dare he not be around to praise me!