#clojure – 2012-02-02

2012-02-02

00:00	arohner	cmajor7, Tcepsa: there's no performance difference between defn/recur and loop/recur
00:00	kilborn	dnolen: it does, and that's what I came up with. It just felt heavy-handed and since I'm very new to clojure (scheme background) I figured there might be some language facilities i'm not aware of for exactly this sort of thing
00:00	kilborn	Guess not
00:01	dnolen	kilborn: if you're doing something stateful, use the stateful facilities. they're pretty simple :)
00:02	cmajor7	Tcepsa, arohner: thank you. so then if a function only does one thing (and needs to be recursive), there is no point to use a "loop/recur"?
00:03	Tcepsa	kilborn: That makes sense. In this case, though, yeah, I'd say it seems like a namespace-level atom would be a good fit.
00:03	dnolen	kilborn: you could probably do something fancy with reify + atom, then you don't have mutate at the REPL directly
00:04	dnolen	you'd get back a type that you can call fns on that do the work
00:04	nuclearsandwich	?
00:04	nuclearsandwich	whoops. Mouse fumble.
00:05	dnolen	kilborn: but even then I'm not sure what that buys you over interacting on the atom via top level fns in your namespace.
00:05	Tcepsa	cmajor7: In my opinion, no.
00:05	arohner	cmajor7: right. loop is solely for the times when you want to recur, but not go to the top of the fn
00:06	cmajor7	arohner, Tcepsa: great, thanks guys
00:06	arohner	and btw, loop is exactly identical to 'let', except it's also a recursion point
00:06	Tcepsa	cmajor7: My pleasure! ^_^
00:07	Tcepsa	(and I learned some new things too!)
00:08	kilborn	dnolen: I can do some macro magic to wrap all the atom instantiation and emulate a setter call, or maybe implement an agent which gets messages and mutates it's own state, but that's all so heavy when the function itself is 2-3 lines. It just feels wrong.
00:08	kilborn	Tcepsa,Dnolen: thanks for your help
00:08	dnolen	kilborn: might be a good idea to ask this question on the overtone mailing list, I bet they've done something like this before. I'm probably babbling non-sense :)
00:08	Tcepsa	kilborn: You're welcome--good luck with Overtone; it's a really nifty project ^_^
00:09	kilborn	dnolen: If you know live-coding, solving problem with overly complicated yas snippets is a form of cheating... :)
00:10	dnolen	kilborn: I bet! I'm sure samaaron will have some good pointers.
00:11	kilborn	dnolen: yeah, mailing list is the next stop
00:21	kilborn	is there a special let form for doing ycombinator-like things such as (let f #( (after 1000 f)))?
00:23	dnolen	kilborn: letfn will let you do that I'm pretty sure.
00:34	kilborn	dnolen: yep, tks.
01:02	dnolen	I'm sure someone could chime in about Lein work flow on this post http://oblong-code.blogspot.com/2012/02/unpretty.html
01:06	G0SUB	dnolen, checkout dependencies?
01:13	dnolen	G0SUB: that's what I thought I just never use that myself so not sure about the details.
01:17	G0SUB	dnolen, I have used it. Works as advertised.
03:01	tsdh	Is there a way to let pprint print long vectors/seqs in such a way that every line has as many items as possible according to print-right-margin instead of only one item per line?
03:49	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:50	ordnungswidrig	good morning
03:50	Blkt	:D
04:04	tsdh	good morning
04:56	G0SUB	this channel needs 1000 more users to be elite :-)
04:58	ordnungswidrig	G0SUB: the other way round: it's no longer elite if it has over 1000 users.
04:58	G0SUB	ordnungswidrig, ;-)
08:34	Borkdude	Is it safe to say that + is a symbol which is used to denote a var, and this var points to a value which is a function that can add numbers?
08:34	Borkdude	I'm always a bit confused about Symbols and vars
08:34	solussd	anyone have any suggestions for ruby/clojure socket or http communication? Basically, I have a rails app that will need to request information from and process the response of a clojure app which will likely, but not necessarily, be running on the same server.
08:34	solussd	symbols name things
08:34	ordnungswidrig	solussd: rpc?
08:35	solussd	I've been looking at aleph, but not sure how to talk to it from the ruby side
08:36	samaaron	Borkdude: that's how I see things
08:43	the-kenny	solussd: Do you need bidirectional communication?
08:44	solussd	the-kenny, just request/response, so no.
08:44	solussd	the clojure code doesn't need to call into the rails app
08:45	the-kenny	I'd use a simple REST interface with compojure then
08:45	the-kenny	aleph is nice too, but it's more useful for streaming of data
08:46	solussd	k
08:46	solussd	thanks
10:54	semperos	using swank-clojure, when I C-c C-k a namespace once, everything is fine; if I do it a second time, Clojure throws an error saying that a function I've defined in a protocol is not implemented by a record I'm using
10:55	semperos	possible reasons?
11:05	compj	semperos: does it work when you dont compile? C-c C-l ?
11:06	semperos	every time I do record/protocol work, I tend to mess up the syntax a bit, probably the case here
11:06	semperos	here's a gist of what I'm doing: https://gist.github.com/1724259
11:07	semperos	doesn't make a difference
11:08	semperos	on first compile/load, works fine; on second, claims I haven't provided an implementation for my function
11:10	compj	ok, then my idea is wrong
11:12	compj	maybe a last try, delete all aot compiled files and do the C-c C-l again
11:12	compj	in a new repl
11:12	semperos	yeah, I've tried that
11:12	semperos	thanks, though
11:12	pjstadig	semperos: can you post the imports too
11:13	semperos	sure, I'll include the ns decl
11:13	pjstadig	it might be that the .start within the start function is being interpreted as a call to the start protocol fn, instead of the start method on Server
11:13	pjstadig	maybe a type hint would help?
11:13	semperos	ah
11:13	pjstadig	i'm not sure
11:13	semperos	interestin'
11:13	semperos	didn't know you could do type hints on protocol fn's...
11:14	compj	question is, why does it work the first time
11:14	pjstadig	although it is complaining that there's no impl for the RemoteServer defrecord
11:14	pjstadig	not the Server class
11:15	semperos	pjstadig: https://gist.github.com/1724259
11:15	semperos	ns included
11:15	semperos	renaming fn's is No Big Deal, I'll try that
11:16	pjstadig	i guess having the ns is a start, but now I'd have to track down all the deps to try the code myself :/
11:16	semperos	:)
11:16	semperos	it's the library I maintain, clj-webdriver
11:16	semperos	but no need to do all that work
11:16	pjstadig	just give me all your code :) i promise i'll be good
11:16	pjstadig	ah
11:16	semperos	this code isn't committed in the state it's in, initial dev
11:17	semperos	don't worry about going to those lengths, was just looking for a sanity check
11:17	compj	tried doing loading manually? (use :reload ...)?
11:18	semperos	well, I'm actually in the namespace
11:18	semperos	I'm not using it
11:18	semperos	though I could try from a different ns and do that...
11:18	compj	just to eliminate a possible swank bug i think
11:19	semperos	sure
11:19	semperos	I just upgraded to 1.4 the other night
11:23	semperos	tried going back to swank-clojure 1.3.4, same issue...
11:24	compj	but from a different ns works?
11:25	semperos	compj: no, doesn't work regardless
11:25	semperos	only on second compile
11:33	semperos	so it looks to be a bug with the version of slime that is pulled down by swank-clojure
11:33	semperos	rolling back to 1.3.4 and making sure the correct slime checkout was loaded solved the issue
11:38	semperos	hmm, perhaps I was wrong
11:38	semperos	in my slime session, I instantiate a RemoteServer and then do (start) on it
11:39	semperos	works the first time
11:39	semperos	do a recompile with C-c C-k, hop back to slime and run start again, I get the failure describe
11:39	semperos	*described
11:39	semperos	however, if I re-instantiate a RemoteServer record and do start again, it works fine
11:40	semperos	or rather, doesn't work, just says "Evaluation aborted."
11:41	hugod	every time you compile a record or protocol, it generates a new type, so any existing objects no longer implement the protocol
11:41	semperos	hugod: makes sense
11:41	semperos	but why, when I instantiate a new instance of the record, do I just get "Evalution aborted." instead of a successful run?
11:42	semperos	whereas it works perfectly on the first compile and run
11:42	hugod	does *e give you anything?
11:42	semperos	heh
11:42	semperos	yes...
11:43	semperos	hugod: thank you, that tells me exactly why it fails
11:43	semperos	though I wonder why the exception doesn't pop open an sdb buffer
11:43	compj	what was the problem?
11:44	semperos	my lack of understanding about how recompilation affected records and protocols
11:44	semperos	I always assume my own ignorance when I hit these snags, was just wondering where the hole was this time, thanks compj hugod and pjstadig
11:45	semperos	and the fact that a java.net.BindException wasn't popping up in an sdb buffer, so I was just seeing "Evaluation aborted" at times without knowing why
12:05	mrevil	is there an easy way to wrap a lazy sequence so I can do something like obtain a lock at the beginning and at the end release it?
12:08	lucian	mrevil: why lock it?
12:12	jkdufair	when i have a slime session connected to a remote swank server and i compile a defun, say with C-c C-c, it gets sent to the remote server, right?
12:12	zakwilson_	Yes
12:12	jkdufair	ok, thx
12:12	lnostdal	hi guys, figured i'd to some upgrades .. but after doing lein install in the swank-clojure checkout here and symlinking ~/.lein/plugins/
12:13	lnostdal	~/.lein/plugins/swank-clojure-1.5.0-SNAPSHOT.jar to the file in .m2 lein swank still says it's missing
12:13	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
12:13	lnostdal	"That's not a task."
12:15	zakwilson	Compiling a local file doesn't work properly on a remote server though, jkdufair; use slime-eval-buffer instead.
12:15	lnostdal	i guess lein does some "magic" with its lein plugin install thingy ...
12:17	jkdufair	zakwilson: thank you! i'm struggling to understand this. that helps immensely
12:19	zakwilson	jkdufair: I'm pretty sure slime-compile-and-load-file calls (load-file ...) on the server, while slime-eval-buffer and slime-compile-defun sends the contents of the file or function to the server. That help?
12:20	jkdufair	yes
12:20	jkdufair	perfect
12:20	jkdufair	thanks a bunch
12:43	technomancy	lnostdal: a symlink won't work anyway because the plugin is an uberjar
12:43	technomancy	the symlink won't get you clj-stacktrace, cdt, and friends
12:48	lnostdal	technomancy, ah, thanks .. uberjar worked .. had to rename it slightly tho
12:49	lnostdal	uhm, i think
12:50	lnostdal	nvm
12:56	technomancy	lnostdal: 1.5.0-SNAPSHOT isn't any different from the 1.4.0 release though iirc; might as well do it the easy way
12:58	lnostdal	how?
12:58	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
13:02	technomancy	lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.0
13:03	lnostdal	ok
13:07	perezd	mac users: what emacs do you use? (anything special? noob here)
13:09	erewhon	24.0.91 via homebrew
13:09	perezd	brew wants to install 23
13:09	perezd	is that okay still?
13:11	erewhon	I think 23 is ok, but IIRC there were things that worked better in 24. There are some switches to brew to get it to build 24.
13:11	perezd	k thanks, I'll check it out
13:11	duck1123	Is there any good documentation for, or projects that make good use of annotations in Clojure? Most of the pages I've found are from 2009-10.
13:11	erewhon	like 'brew install emacs --cocoa --use-git-head' or something like that
13:11	perezd	erewhon: any books/resources you recommend for learning emacs?
13:12	erewhon	gosh... it's been a while. I thought there was a tutorial built-in.
13:12	perezd	maybe so
13:13	erewhon	there are probably only a handful of key sequences i use continuously. besides moving around, undo (C-x u or C-_), save C-x C-s, open file C-x C-f. but there's a lot there.
13:14	perezd	interesting
13:14	perezd	okay
13:14	erewhon	the Emacs starter kit (hi technomancy!) is a nice add on if you're starting from 0 (or starting over).
13:14	erewhon	emacs wiki is a handy resource
13:14	perezd	gonna just install --HEAD
13:14	perezd	that appears to be the only way to get 24
13:15	erewhon	right
13:16	erewhon	you can use it just as a development editor, but it's easy to get sucked into it and start doing everything in Emacs.
13:16	erewhon	(since there are packages that do just about anything)
13:16	perezd	erewhon: thats what I hear…I actually don't really know much about emacs whatsoever…thats why I was looking for a book
13:16	perezd	I use vim poorly
13:17	perezd	but now that I am lisping
13:17	perezd	emacs probably makes better sense
13:17	compj	try also emacs-prelude
13:17	erewhon	there's also the Emacs manual. i haven't read that in a long time, but as I recall there was lots of info in there
13:17	perezd	compj: what is that
13:17	compj	second that, read it a few months ago, you can get it at gnu.org
13:18	compj	perezd: it's an alternative to emacs starter kit
13:18	compj	a nice selection of modes and settings
13:18	perezd	oh cool
13:18	perezd	thanks all, this is really useful
13:19	perezd	lol
13:19	compj	http://batsov.com/articles/2011/11/30/the-ultimate-collection-of-emacs-resources/
13:19	erewhon	I first used it on a timeshared Unix machine via dialup in 1986....
13:19	perezd	og neckbeard cred
13:20	compj	the builtin tutorial is also nice for a quick start imho
13:20	perezd	yeah, I'll start there
13:27	TimMc	perezd: There's also my "Emacs n00b start" <http://www.brainonfire.net/blog/emacs-n00b-start/>, which is a quick walk through some commands you should know before your first tutorial.
13:27	perezd	tahnks!
13:54	technomancy	guys... I just committed my first type hints ever
13:55	technomancy	thought I'd share that with you
13:56	tmciver	Another Red-Letter date in software engineering history...and I was there.
13:56	muhoo	nice. commit?
13:57	technomancy	https://github.com/heroku/pulse/commit/486f9845257d4ae1e
13:57	emezeske	technomancy: next thing you know, you're gonna be committing a protocol (!)
13:57	technomancy	noooooo
13:58	TimMc	technomancy: Write an agry, passive aggressive rant on your blog.
13:59	TimMc	talking about how the github devs hate you.
13:59	technomancy	the "noooooo" was re: protocols, not github fwiw
13:59	technomancy	TimMc: maybe I could coin the phrase NoGithub
13:59	technomancy	it'll catch on like wildfire in the NoOps and NoSQL crowd
13:59	TimMc	haha
13:59	TimMc	NoOps?
14:00	technomancy	ugh; don't get me started
14:00	TimMc	Is that as stupid as it sounds?
14:00	TimMc	...yup.
14:01	TimMc	"whine whine whine, I hate communication"
14:01	muhoo	sounds like a no-op to me :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOP
14:02	TimMc	~rimshot
14:02	clojurebot	Badum, tish
14:03	muhoo	funny, i got into emacs because of lisp. a friend was teaching me scheme years ago, and i got annoyed trying to work in a repl without history and sufficient scrollback, and he said, "you need comint mode and emacs", and from there i was hooked.
14:03	TimMc	technomancy: So, why the type hints? Was reflection slowing something down?
14:03	technomancy	TimMc: yeah, it was in a tight loop
14:04	muhoo	the comit says "Remove reflection warnings " so i guess you were getting some kind of console spew?
14:09	TimMc	muhoo: You can turn that spew on optionally.
14:09	technomancy	ah yes, I suppose that commit message is not terribly accurate
14:09	technomancy	it was the reflection that I intended to remove, not the warning thereof =)
14:10	jsabeaudry	emezeske, cljsbuild 0.0.10 works with the dependencies without any problem so far
14:10	technomancy	emezeske: hey, have you tried lein 1.7 yet?
14:15	emezeske	jsabeaudry: thanks a bunch!
14:15	emezeske	technomancy: no, I want to thought, just haven't had time
14:15	emezeske	s/thought/though
14:16	amalloy	technomancy: fix warnings: "make the code better". remove warnings: "add 2>/dev/null to the makefile"
14:17	technomancy	amalloy: it's my first time using type hints; I plead noobism
14:21	amalloy	technomancy: if you're looking for another reason to be sad about typehints, check out http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-865
14:21	technomancy	yow
14:21	TimMc	ouch
14:22	TimMc	I never even thought to transfer metadata.
14:23	amalloy	and you shouldn't have to :P
14:27	muhoo	that's beautiful. i went searching on "noops" and found this http://siliconangle.com/blog/2012/02/01/noops-a-big-lie-or-a-political-shift/ which yeilded this: http://prn.s3.amazonaws.com/doh.jpg
14:28	TimMc	ops!
14:28	ibdknox	lol
14:28	ibdknox	~rimshot
14:28	clojurebot	Badum, tish
14:28	muhoo	(recursive irony since i'm using aws to host that image)
14:29	perezd	hey, so I tried to setup emacs-prelude, but the daemon mode errors with exit code 2 now :(
14:29	perezd	not sure how to fix.
14:29	cemerick	amalloy: but without such things, what would book authors talk about :-P
14:30	amalloy	oh whoops, i forgot to copyright my jira comments so cemerick can't steal them
14:31	cemerick	word-for-word
14:49	erewhon	perezd: specify full path for emacs: /usr/local/Cellar/emacs/HEAD/bin/emacs
14:49	perezd	erewhon: yeah, I just reinstalled it
14:49	erewhon	perezd: or don't use daemon mode
14:49	perezd	somehow it fixed it
14:49	erewhon	:)
14:53	Licenser	Raynes it is your fault I have no cake for your birthday!
14:54	perezd	who in here is using emacs-prelude ?
15:02	jsabeaudry	Question about best practices regarding rich webapps. Do you actually serve html or just javascript and the javascript takes care of generating html?
15:03	ibdknox	typically a combination
15:04	mintsoup	though alot of sites seem to be tending to the javascript extreme..
15:05	ibdknox	got that t-shirt
15:05	ibdknox	don't recommend it
15:06	technomancy	depends on your requirements for graceful degredation I guess
15:08	ibdknox	it depends on lots of things unfortunately :( Not the least of which is how complicated your templating is, the levels of dependency between your models, how much you want to poke yourself in the eye...
15:08	tjgillies	after learning more about identity and state it scares me how much mutation of state i have going on in my non clojure apps
15:08	ibdknox	technomancy: btw, I have no idea why, but just setting xmx fixed that issue, memory usage is totally normal now
15:08	technomancy	ibdknox: whew; glad to hear it
15:09	technomancy	if you're using a client JVM I think it will default to a lower Xmx, which could explain the discrepancy
15:09	technomancy	got a fix in the pipeline for JAVA_OPTS though, glad we caught that
15:09	ibdknox	yeah
15:10	technomancy	the JVM is famous for using as much memory as it thinks it can get away with
15:11	gf3	hey guys, not sure if one of you runs the blog
15:11	gf3	http://www.clojure.net/2012/02/02/Monads-in-Clojure/
15:12	gf3	small typo
15:12	gf3	(appy concat (map ... )) → "apply"
15:12	brehaut	gf3: that would be jimduey i think
15:12	gf3	ahh, thx
15:12	gf3	jimduey ↑
15:12	jimduey	yep. I'll fix. Thanks.
15:13	gf3	jimduey: great article, thank you
15:14	amalloy	(apply concat (map ...)) -> (mapcat ...)
15:14	amalloy	i've only glanced at the article, so i can't tell if that's off-topic :P
15:16	jimduey	Yeah, I specifically avoided mapcat for pedagogical reasons.
15:17	jimduey	Going to be (apply union ...) when we look at the set monad.
15:24	triyo	What is the best way to extend an existing class and add a new constructor in clojure now days?
15:37	amalloy	triyo: assuming it's possible, gen-class is what you'll need to use. but personally, if i ever found myself needing to do this, i'd prefer to just do it in java where it's common, natural, and easy
15:38	triyo	True, was thinking about that now to go with java/src option
15:42	triyo	Also the class I want to extend is part of a library utilized by other java developers. This would make it easier to share the java source of improvements.
16:31	TimMc	tmciver: I'm going to rename the import-static GitHub project to "imports"
16:35	Licenser	out of curiosity has anyone a dedicated server with a decent network connection to run a httperf for me to test something?
16:36	Licenser	httperf --server=82.210.31.101 --uri=/ --num-conns=50 --num-calls=100 is what I am running
16:37	TimMc	I can try from a university machine...
16:38	Licenser	would be great I really have a hard time to figure where the bottleneck is, from the same machine I get about 600 req/s
16:38	TimMc	Nope, can't -- httperf not installed.
16:38	Licenser	which in itself isn't great but it is at least semi expected
16:38	Licenser	heh thanks non the less tim
16:39	TimMc	Well, let's see what this shitty laptop at home can do.
16:39	Licenser	heh
16:40	Licenser	I am counter trying clojure.org to see if I get a better result there
16:40	Licenser	that way at least I can test if it is my machine that is slow
16:40	brehaut	its taking quite a while on my VPS
16:40	Licenser	VPS?
16:41	brehaut	virtual private server
16:41	TimMc	Over 44 seconds, I got 8.5 req/s :-P
16:41	Licenser	ah I see
16:42	Licenser	not really great
16:42	TimMc	What's the goal, looking for errors?
16:42	Licenser	TimMc trying to find the bottleneck
16:43	Licenser	so it's hard when I have to choose between A) my laptops HW, B) My internet Connection, C) the internet up to my Server, D) The VM's internal network, E) the VM itself
16:43	Licenser	so I try to eliminate parts
16:43	TimMc	OK, trying from work...
16:43	Licenser	okay clojure.org gives me 4.5r/s
16:43	Licenser	so I start to think it is my connection in the first place
16:44	TimMc	5.6 req/s
16:44	TimMc	and it's a fast machine with a reasonable connection
16:45	brehaut	Request rate: 5.7 req/s (176.9 ms/req) for me
16:45	TimMc	I guess there's some jitter because multiple people are hammering on it.
16:45	TimMc	There's no way my craptop on a home connection beats my work machine.
16:45	muhoo	26003 fu 20 0 21624 1676 1204 R 99.2 0.2 1:17.87 httperf
16:45	Licenser	nods
16:46	Licenser	heh
16:46	muhoo	httperf is a cpu pig
16:46	Licenser	my problem is that httperf on my machine eats 100% CPU and gets 25-30 req/s
16:46	Licenser	given the serer is 'next door' as in just 20 km from my home
16:46	muhoo	Licenser: yes, you now basically have a DDoS attack on that server
16:46	TimMc	Licenser: Hire a bot net.
16:46	Licenser	:P
16:46	TimMc	Get 4chan mad at your server.
16:46	muhoo	use loic
16:46	devn	ima loadin muh lazerz
16:47	Licenser	heh
16:47	Licenser	well I will ask a colegue tomorrow I think
16:47	Licenser	thanks mates :)
16:47	Licenser	it was at least insightful
16:47	muhoo	Request rate: 5.2 req/s (192.4 ms/req)
16:49	devn	Request rate: 4.6 req/s (219.1 ms/req)
17:12	mrevil	must cascalog always operate on tuples or can I supply a hash?
18:22	arohner	anyone have experience with resque-clojure?
19:31	pandeiro	any way to check for browser features (eg window.localStorage) in cljs?
19:32	TimMc	pandeiro: Besides the usual way?
19:33	TimMc	What happens if you ask for (. window -localStorage) or whatever the syntax is these days?
19:33	pandeiro	at the repl it blows up
19:35	pandeiro	TimMc: nevermind, this time it didn't... using js/localStorage throws an exception but the (.-localStorage js/window) syntax works
19:41	arohner	what is the 1.3 replacement for c.c.prxml?
19:42	TimMc	Interesting. (def a 5) (do (in-ns 'temp) (def b 10) (in-ns 'user)) works from the REPL -- a is only visible outside the 'do, b is only visible inside.
19:42	TimMc	But if you turn that 'do into a 'let, you don't escape the original namespace.
19:43	arohner	have I mentioned how much I hate the 1.3 switchover? and the total lack of a migration path?
19:44	TimMc	arohner: Were you here for yesterday's regularly-scheduled argument about the clojure contribution process? :-)
19:45	arohner	TimMc: yes, I was :-)
19:45	arohner	but this is an orthogonal issue
19:45	brehaut	arohner: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go says it evaporated
19:45	arohner	brehaut: sigh. thank you
19:45	brehaut	arohner: it may have migrated into the core xml lib
19:46	brehaut	https://github.com/clojure/data.xml
19:47	TimMc	arohner: It's sort of orthogonal... there might actually be maintainers for more of those if people felt they could contribute.
19:48	arohner	TimMc: absolutely true, but I wish the 1.3 contrib switchover didn't happen at all without a better migration strategy
19:48	TimMc	Definitely.
19:48	arohner	brehaut: thanks. I was hoping for a direct port. I'm upgrading https://github.com/leadtune/clj-airbrake to 1.3
19:48	TimMc	Contri was a bad idea in the first place, though -- and I think that's most of the pain.
19:48	brehaut	arohner: i thought you might. the whole xml space seems to be a quite in-flux area atm
19:49	brehaut	arohner: would hiccup work?
19:49	TimMc	arohner: Do you need proper namespace support?
19:50	arohner	TimMc: doesn't look like it: https://github.com/leadtune/clj-airbrake/blob/master/src/clj_airbrake/core.clj
19:50	brehaut	arohner: looking at the usage of prxml you might be able ot get away with it
19:50	brehaut	time for cricket
19:54	TimMc	alexbaranosky: You said that midje haa some utility for sandbox namespaces?
19:56	TimMc	alexbaranosky: I might end up just using clojail. >_<
20:13	technomancy	sjl: nice app =)
20:14	sjl	technomancy: which one?
20:14	technomancy	typkov
20:14	sjl	technomancy: ah, yeah, that was fun. Thanks1
20:15	technomancy	just saw it on the intertweets
20:15	sjl	technomancy: heh, I recorded all ~3hours of me making it as a screencast here: http://youtu.be/uTwnoZEw7FE -- It's a fun usability study of Clojure/Noir/Vim/etc
20:16	technomancy	three hours; wow
20:16	TimMc	Wow. I can't concentrate for more than
20:16	sjl	yeah, I pretty much started screenflow and just went until I finished
20:20	TimMc	Did that include doc and tests?
20:20	sjl	nah, and I still had to clean up a few things afterword too
20:22	technomancy	what worked well for me doing the peepcode was to break it up into chapters corresponding to git branches
20:22	technomancy	course I had it all scripted out ahead of time
20:22	technomancy	but it makes it nice for folks following along at home
20:23	sjl	yeah, this was more of a "well I'm making it anyway, may as well record it"
20:29	TimMc	In a line, what is it?
20:30	sjl	TimMc: the app? It lets you paste in text you've written and created random typing lessons for you based on that text
20:38	TimMc	Ha, cool.
20:45	dgrnbrg	Suppose I want to have a public macro that, when expanded, calls some function private to the macro's namespace (something impl-specific). When I do this with defn-, it complains about the visibility. Is there another way?
20:48	TimMc	Yeah, someone I know was complaining about that.
20:49	technomancy	need to either go through a var or mark it an ^:internal instead of private
20:49	TimMc	Maybe if you make the defn public and just hint it with :^internal?>
20:49	TimMc	bah
20:50	dgrnbrg	what does ^:internal do?
20:50	dgrnbrg	technomancy, is it recognized by the compiler?
20:50	dgrnbrg	or runtime?
20:51	TimMc	dgrnbrg: It's just for your audience.
20:51	technomancy	dgrnbrg: recognized by human readers =)
20:51	dgrnbrg	I see
20:51	dgrnbrg	Is there any library for executing a dependency graph of functions?
20:51	technomancy	honestly :private is entirely about communicating intent too
20:51	technomancy	it just has the compiler help it out a little extra
20:52	dgrnbrg	yeah
20:52	dgrnbrg	well, i'll go with the public soln for now
20:52	dgrnbrg	I have an input that needs to get processed through a little graph
20:52	dgrnbrg	I could just have the functions call each other in turn
20:53	dgrnbrg	but I was wondering if there's a bit more elegant way, perhaps by specifying their deps in a standard way?
20:54	technomancy	monads!
20:57	technomancy	or ->
20:57	TimMc	dgrnbrg: But you want to do it efficiently, yeah?
21:01	TimMc	I wrote a cascading mutater at some point that worked from a DAG of nodes that knew how to update when their dependency nodes were updated.
21:02	TimMc	but you probably want something functional, yeah?
21:02	TimMc	(ugh, I hate how repetitive my writing is)
21:07	dgrnbrg	TimMc, I'm not terribly concerned about functionality
21:07	dgrnbrg	technomancy, I think I'd like more flexibility, in case I parallelize it later
21:07	dgrnbrg	Is there a zipper for maps?
21:09	TimMc	dgrnbrg: Check ou thte cascade.clj file in my HW3 prohjec ton github
21:11	dgrnbrg	TimMc, that's quite good
21:12	dgrnbrg	Is there some kind of functional data structure like a zipper but for a map?
21:13	TimMc	dgrnbrg: It's a bit weird, should maybe be rewritten inside out.
21:14	dgrnbrg	what do you mean inside out?
21:18	TimMc	Well, since it mutates stuff, the client code really shouldn't responsible for storing the returned object back into a ref or whatever.
21:18	TimMc	and someone suggested having it watch atoms instead of calling dirty! on it.
21:27	TimMc	dgrnbrg: So, is this a DAG of processing functions where an input goes in and you get a bunch of outputs out?
21:38	dgrnbrg	TimMc, it's almost more of a sequence of validity checks
21:38	dgrnbrg	and the data must get verified
21:38	dgrnbrg	and some passes won't make sense until a previous pass has ran
21:38	dgrnbrg	and other passes rewrite the data
21:39	dgrnbrg	and there's a path it should take to get an answer or an error
21:45	TimMc	dgrnbrg: You want to shortcut on errors?
21:45	TimMc	Or collect all the errors?
21:55	dgrnbrg	TimMc, collect them all
21:55	dgrnbrg	(man, I don't have notifications set up properly
21:56	dgrnbrg	very hard to chat in a timely manner)
22:04	TimMc	dgrnbrg: Let's see, you do a topo sort of the graph, and start with the first (input) layer, then work your way layer by layer to the end. For each node in a layer, if its dependencies are all valid, run the validator/transformer and collect the result or error. At the end, you have zero or more errors accumulated from the layers, and maybe a value for the output.
22:05	TimMc	dgrnbrg: I bet you could do something clever with promise/deliver or futures, too.
22:05	TimMc	(if you only wanted the end result)
22:12	tmciver	TimMc: have you been doing any work on imports?
22:13	tmciver	TimMc: I'd like to try tackling something you're not doing.
22:14	TimMc	tmciver: Just the testing. It's not going well. :-P
22:15	TimMc	tmciver: So go for it. Oh, what do you think of syntax like (import+ (java.awt Color (geom :rename {Point2D$Double P2D}))) ?
22:15	tmciver	TimMc: Ahh! When you said "import plus" I imagined import-plus
22:15	TimMc	Nesting packages, renaming without having to list the class redundantly in both the imports and renaming.
22:16	tmciver	Is it more idiomatic to use a vector? (import+ (java.awt Color (geom :rename {Point2D$Double P2D})))
22:16	tmciver	wait
22:16	tmciver	Is it more idiomatic to use a vector? (import+ (java.awt Color [geom :rename {Point2D$Double P2D}]))
22:17	TimMc	Probably.
22:17	TimMc	clojure.core/import doesn't, though
22:17	TimMc	It's a little inconsistent.
22:18	TimMc	We don't actually have to choose, just check for a sequential? and allow either.
22:18	tmciver	Ugh. Let the confusion begin (coninue?)
22:18	TimMc	That cuts off some future syntactic additions, but I'm not too worried.
22:19	tmciver	s/coninue/continue
22:19	TimMc	tmciver: It would have confusion-parity with 'require and 'use, yes.
22:19	tmciver	Oh, well since you put it that way...
22:20	tmciver	So you're going to be tackling the renaming? I could make an attempt at importing static methods as functions.
22:21	TimMc	Renaming is totally something that can be folded in afterwards.
22:21	tmciver	Sure
22:22	arohner	with midje, how do you stub a function to throw an exception?
22:22	TimMc	tmciver: Making functions is a good first step, but I think the killer feature would be hinting. Not sure how that would work precisely, but it would rock.
22:24	tmciver	TimMc: so, what would the hinting do here?
22:26	TimMc	Well, you'd effectively want (defn ^double sqrt [^double x] (Math/sqrt x))
22:26	tmciver	TimMc: OK, that's good.
22:26	TimMc	I guess the macro to produce that would use with-meta on the forms it produces.
22:27	TimMc	It'll take some fancy footwork to extract the type information from reflection and munge it into a form Clojure likes, but again, that's down the road.
22:27	arohner	alexbaranosky: is it possible to make a midje fake that throws when called?
22:28	tmciver	TimMc: BTW, I fixed my warped keyboard tonight :D
22:28	TimMc	Haha, good! Was there a hamster or something under there?
22:29	tmciver	TimMc: I had improperly replaced a bracket causing it to stick up.
22:29	tmciver	TimMc: Nothing a hammer couldn't fix.
22:35	alexbaranosky	arohner, it looks like the answer is no. But you really should be able to... imho. It might be fairly straightforward to add a syntax like this: (provided (foo) =throws=> (Exception. "boom"))
22:37	arohner	alexbaranosky: thanks. One more question while I'm at it: is there a way to avoid specifying how many arguments a function is called with?
22:37	arohner	I don't want to do (provided (foo anything anything anything anything anything)), I want (provided (foo any-number-of-arguments))
22:38	alexbaranosky	arohner: no sugar for that (yet)... add your approval to the issue (https://github.com/marick/Midje/issues/56)
22:39	alexbaranosky	so far I've been the only one to care about this idea, so it hasn't gotten done
22:39	alexbaranosky	arohner, I'm going to look at =throws=> right now
22:40	arohner	alexbaranosky: thanks
22:49	devn	heya alexbaranosky
22:54	Raynes	devn: I don't know if you're aware of this, but I recently became an old man. ;)
22:54	clojurebot	Huh?
22:54	devn	Raynes: You got married?!
22:55	Raynes	No, but that's certainly an interesting conclusion.
22:55	devn	Raynes: I don't mean that to sound incredulous: of course you got married.
22:55	Raynes	I turned 18.
22:55	devn	Bahahahahaha
22:55	Raynes	I figured that was clearer than it actually was. :p
22:55	devn	Damnit Anthony.
22:56	devn	an "old man"
22:56	devn	versus being 18
22:56	devn	one of them is more likely for someone of my ripe old age
22:56	tmciver	Raynes: congrats. Too bad you have to wait a few more years to legally drink a beer.
22:56	Guest33786	not in New Zealand!
22:56	Guest33786	err
22:56	Raynes	Heh
22:56	devn	not in 1960 in the US!
22:56	ivan___	so need to sort out my nick
22:56	devn	ivan___: haskell?
22:57	ivan___	haskell?
22:57	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
22:57	devn	ivan___: i just know an old nick from #haskell which was ivan
22:57	devn	is that you?
22:57	ivan___	nah ive never been on that
22:57	devn	k, nvm
22:58	ivan___	they are changing the law here to 20 if you want to buy from a bottle shop, but bars and stuff will still be 18
22:58	ivan___	it got changed to 18 6months before i turned 18 :)
22:58	tmciver	ivan___: that's they way it should be.
22:59	devn	Kim Dotcom ruined it for everyone, eh ivan___?
22:59	devn	;)
22:59	ivan___	you can drink in bars at any age if you have your guardian with you anyway.. so 18 should be the age which you can drink in bars
23:00	ivan___	devn: heh, yeah especially because we have 3 strikes laws for torrents
23:00	tmciver	ivan___: torrents?
23:01	ivan___	tmciver: if we get 3 dmca notices for using bittorrent over 3 months we can be disconnected and/or fined $10k
23:01	tmciver	ivan___: whoa!
23:02	ivan___	although it costs the companies $25 to issue those notices so they havent been spamming them
23:02	devn	tmciver: just move that traffic through malaysia and no problem! :)
23:03	tmciver	cheaper and easier just to buy your movies/music.
23:03	devn	debatable
23:03	devn	also defeatist
23:04	devn	also, demerol
23:05	alexbaranosky	arohner, looks like I coded up =throws=>... that was ease, nice!
23:05	alexbaranosky	Just need to give it some error checking, and test the error checking
23:05	TimMc	I like to listen before I buy.
23:05	alexbaranosky	arohner, and... ya know, deploy iy
23:06	tmciver	TimMc: get a radio! :)
23:06	TimMc	tmciver: They don't play what I like!
23:06	alexbaranosky	TimMc, thief!
23:06	alexbaranosky	;)
23:06	tmciver	~guards
23:06	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
23:06	TimMc	I like it when bands do this: http://www.gaiaconsort.com/lyrics.html
23:07	TimMc	(Basically, you can download all their music for free.) I've donated like $50 to that group, after listening to their stuff.
23:08	ivan___	tmciver: yeah i dont pirate generally, i used to when i was a student but then i stopped
23:08	TimMc	And this is a fantastic idea for ebooks: http://fictioncircus.com/news.php?id=407&mode=one
23:08	tmciver	Well, that's awfully nice of them. But you don't pay for a sandwich after you've eaten it. Not sure why you'd expect that from other industries.
23:08	ivan___	so really the 3strikes laws dont effect me
23:09	TimMc	tmciver: IP vs. tangible property. They're different.
23:10	tmciver	As long as artists/authors get paid for their work (on their terms) I'm happy.
23:10	TimMc	Me too.
23:10	TimMc	The question is whether any of the existing models are sustainable.
23:10	ivan___	tmciver: that being said, im sure piracy would go down here if we had legal alternatives :) - but that arguement still doesnt make it right, legally or morally
23:11	devn	test.generative is great, but it's just quickcheck, no?
23:11	tmciver	I don't have a problem with artists giving away their stuff; just as I don't with artists who wish to charge for it.
23:11	devn	whoops, nvm
23:11	TimMc	just quickcheck, he says...
23:11	ivan___	TimMc: it doesnt matter if its not sustainable in the long run. If people STOPPED buying media, those companies would die out
23:11	devn	TimMc: haha, I was not trying to downplay how cool it was
23:12	ivan___	and new ones would take there place
23:12	ivan___	that had a different distro model
23:12	alexbaranosky	devn, from my understanding QuickCheck is much more fully-featured than test.generative
23:12	TimMc	ivan___: I'm referring to the distro model of groups like Gaia Consort, too.
23:12	TimMc	Maybe people wouldn't donate enough.
23:12	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
23:12	devn	alexbaranosky: specifics?
23:12	tmciver	I don't think a system that relies on donations is sustainable.
23:13	ivan___	TimMc: oh i see, it might be sustainable for one group, but if others start doing it..
23:13	TimMc	Right, the novelty wears off.
23:13	_carlos_	hi!
23:14	TimMc	Anyway, off to bed. tmciver, I expect to see a fully hinted renaming import+ by the morning. :-P
23:14	arohner	alexbaranosky: awesome, thanks
23:14	tmciver	TimMc: OK (he didn't say which morning ;) )
23:15	tmciver	TimMc: see you in the morning.
23:15	_carlos_	if this is a defmacro, why doesn't this expression need the "list" form? -> http://pastebin.com/3u4TCpPz
23:16	_carlos_	(defmacro randomly-2 [& exprs] (nth exprs (rand-int (count exprs))))
23:16	_carlos_	I just noticed it was small enough ^^
23:17	_carlos_	I just wonder.. when using "list", this macro definition stops working.. why suddenly such an exception?
23:19	tmciver	_carlos_: where did this come from? It doesn't appear to do the right thing for me.
23:19	_carlos_	(defmacro randomly-2 [& exprs] (list 'nth exprs (list 'rand-int (list 'count exprs)))) <- this doen't work properly
23:19	_carlos_	tmciver: just a second
23:19	_carlos_	tmciver: oh sorry, I will give you an example
23:19	tmciver	_carlos_: If I call it, it just returns what I gave it...
23:20	tmciver	_carlos_: Oops, I was wrong; it does work
23:20	_carlos_	tmciver: (randomly-2 (println "spam") (println "foo") (println "bar"))
23:20	_carlos_	oh
23:21	alexbaranosky	devn, as far as I know test.generative doesnt have shrinking
23:21	devn	alexbaranosky: what is that?
23:21	alexbaranosky	devn, shrinking is where it attempts to reduce the failure case into the smallest possible case
23:21	tmciver	_carlos_: I'm not sure why it's a macro; it appears to do it's own body: (nth exprs (rand-int (count exprs)))
23:21	_carlos_	tmciver: anyway, do you find it natural to not require "list"?
23:21	alexbaranosky	and in QuickCheck the shrinking correlates to the particular generator used
23:22	alexbaranosky	I could be wrong, and test.generative does implement that....
23:22	tmciver	_carlos_: I think it's a bad macro example. You'd just write that as a function.
23:23	_carlos_	tmciver: it is a macro, because if you want to print inside the body, using a function will eval print when binding at the call, which is unintended
23:23	_carlos_	tmciver: println expression is just an example
23:25	_carlos_	tmciver: was my explanation clear?
23:26	_carlos_	tmciver: it doesn't print all the body, just one randomly selected, in the example of a print expression
23:27	tmciver	_carlos_: Hmm, interesting. Yes. I'm still learning macros myself. I'm not sure why the three println's above don't evaluate before being passed to the macro.
23:29	_carlos_	tmciver: if you (doc xxx) each of the functions inside, it will become clear. actually my doubt is not about the logic. usually macro expressions begin with (list ... in every expression, but this one doesn't need one. I fail to untderstand this
23:30	muhoo	i cannot get myself motivated to do anything except read clojure books and docs and such
23:30	_carlos_	tmciver: oh, I understand your question. because expressions are not evaled when entering a macro. they replace! I think that is one of the main advantages!
23:31	tmciver	_carlos_: Yes. This macro does not return s-expressions to be eval'd; the body is eval'd right away. I think the only reason it's a macro is to stop the evaluation of the args.
23:32	tmciver	_carlos_: since it's not return sexp's to be eval'd, it does not need any quoting.
23:34	_carlos_	tmciver: I suspected that, but I cannot abstract it. arrrgh I want to kill my brain. 5 minutes. I need to think about it
23:35	tmciver	_carlos_: Ha! Don't do that.
23:35	_carlos_	tmciver: thinking about the problem, not killing the brain
23:45	muhoo	braaaaaaiiiiin!
23:50	_phil	is there a way to see if the outer function of some closure is still in progress when the closure gets called?
23:51	_phil	(except wrapping it with (reset! progress true) ... (reset! progress false))