#clojure – 2012-01-30

2012-01-30

00:00	aphyr	Yeah, insertion or arbitrary order.
00:00	aphyr	Do you suppose I could re-jigger a list or vector to implement that interface?
00:01	aphyr	https://github.com/cgrand/parsley/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/parsley/lrplus.clj#L67
00:01	aphyr	that, specifically, is what I'm trying to force to evaluate a set in a certain order.
00:03	jeremyheiler	Could use sorted-set-by with a custom comparator that preserves insertion order by always returining 1.
00:03	amalloy	jeremyheiler: that would be a disaster and not work
00:04	amalloy	(a) it's gross that parsley requires you to give it sets, but (b) just write a (set-in-this-order 'a 'b 'c) function, that creates a custom comparator when you give it the items
00:04	aphyr	Where the comparator... attaches ordered metadata to the objects?
00:04	aphyr	Or can I presume that (fn [] 1) will be stable?
00:05	amalloy	huh? just create a new comparator that keeps a copy of the original order
00:06	aphyr	Hmm. Feels inefficient... really all this thing needs is a type that's APersistentSet and Seqable, if I understand correctly.
00:06	amalloy	(defn my-set [& args] (let [order (zipmap args (range))] (apply sorted-set-by (fn [a b] (- (order a) (order b))) args))) or something
00:06	jeremyheiler	sets are seqable
00:06	aphyr	Can I extend List to be APersistentSet?
00:07	aphyr	Or I guess I could just patch Parsley to accept some core type like lists for alternation.
00:13	jeremyheiler	amalloy: what exactly is wrong with this? ##(sorted-set-by (fn [x y] 1) :b :a :d :c :f)
00:13	lazybot	⇒ #{:b :a :d :c :f}
00:14	amalloy	&(let [elts [:b :a :d :c :f], s (apply sorted-set-by (fn [x y] 1) elts))] (map s elts))
00:14	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
00:14	amalloy	&(let [elts [:b :a :d :c :f], s (apply sorted-set-by (fn [x y] 1) elts)] (map s elts))
00:14	lazybot	⇒ (nil nil nil nil nil)
00:15	amalloy	jeremyheiler: if your comparator lies, you can seq over the list, but you can't look things up by key
00:16	jeremyheiler	amalloy: ah yes, forgot sets were just maps underneath.
00:16	Raynes	amalloy: What is spark plug? What is car?
00:16	jeremyheiler	never really thought of pulling things out of a set by a key
00:16	amalloy	it doesn't matter if they're maps underneath
00:16	amalloy	you can't call contains? either
00:16	amalloy	(or rather, it won't work)
00:17	nrichards	Does anyone know the the timeout for 4clojure solutions? I have a problem that finishes in < 30ms on my machine but gets "An Error occured: timeout" on the site
00:18	Raynes	amalloy: Why don't you write up something about this for an FAQ or something on 4clojure?
00:18	Raynes	amalloy: It has to be kind of frustrating.
00:19	aphyr	Oh, amalloy, you wrote an ordered-set!
00:20	amalloy	i did. and you're welcome to use it, but if you only have static fixed-size sets, the defn i put in earlier will surely be more lightweight and less complicated
00:23	aphyr	They're being destroyed immediately after parser generation... doesn't really matter to me.
00:23	aphyr	I'll just use the library, make my packaging easier.
00:25	jeremyheiler	amalloy: sorry, didn't mean to sound rude. was just looking for further explanation.
00:25	amalloy	nor i. just further clarifying/explaining
00:26	Raynes	jeremyheiler: He is lying. Look at his poker face.
00:27	amalloy	he can't read my poker face
00:27	jeremyheiler	I can buffer it though
00:32	muhoo	p p p p p p poker face
00:32	aphyr	(satisfies? clojure.lang.APersistentSet #{})
00:32	Raynes	muhoo: You forgot a 'po' there.
00:32	aphyr	java.lang.NullPointerException
00:32	aphyr	:/
00:33	amalloy	&(doc instance?)
00:33	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/instance? ([c x]) Evaluates x and tests if it is an instance of the class c. Returns true or false nil
00:33	aphyr	(instance? clojure.lang.APersistentSet (ordered-set 1 6 ))
00:33	aphyr	false
00:33	aphyr	hmmm
00:34	aphyr	So I guess I do need to implement a custom comparator then
00:34	amalloy	IPersistentSet
00:34	aphyr	or write my own damn parser generator
00:34	amalloy	if it checks for APersistentSet that's frankly retarded, whereas checking for IPersistentSet is just distasteful to me
00:35	aphyr	https://github.com/cgrand/parsley/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/parsley/lrplus.clj#L67
00:35	aphyr	I don't exactly understand how protocols interact here
00:36	aphyr	But it looks like that ... class? Is being extended with a function for the TokenMatcher protocol?
00:36	amalloy	ah. so it's not doing any silly checking
00:38	aphyr	Ah, A suggests that it's an abstract class?
00:38	amalloy	just extend that protocol to whatever type you want, with a behavior that's similar to do what you want. say, to ISeq
00:38	aphyr	Is it possible to extend only a single object with a protocol?
00:38	amalloy	no
00:39	aphyr	So I need to define a new type
00:41	aphyr	Goddamnit, I'll just write the damn thing as a PEG
00:42	muhoo	wow, the docstring for deftype is like 3 pages lonng
00:54	amalloy	jeremyheiler: wish granted, conditional upon your being on the west coast
00:55	jeremyheiler	will be in march -- but not today :-/
00:55	muhoo	it's sunday here. it's probably been monday for like a day already in australia
00:55	muhoo	this joy of clojure book is really good.
00:55	jeremyheiler	although it's summer there, dam
00:56	jeremyheiler	muhoo: i concur
00:56	muhoo	beats the hell out of trying to learn from just reading the language reference and random stuff from the internets.
01:02	talios	muhoo: 7pm Monday evening in Auckland, New Zealand here.
01:03	amalloy	was monday any good, or should i just stay in bed?
01:03	talios	amalloy: public holiday ( Auckland aniversary day ) so I spent it in the sun with bro and his 1yr old daughter ( and his wife ). so good.
01:03	talios	and then coded my pet project to all green tests. so double good.
01:05	talios	now contemplated dinner, or the gym - then dinner.
01:05	talios	s/ed/ing/
01:11	muhoo	trying to decide if i should blow $500 on attending clojure/west
01:11	muhoo	bummer it's in san jose. if it were in san francsico i could just bart it there.
01:12	talios	if you think going would be "blowing" away $500 then yes. sounds like you think it's not worth it. I'd love to go.
01:12	muhoo	i don't know if it'd be worth it. $500 is a lot of money to me.
01:12	jeremyheiler	I'm flying out form New York. I wouldn't mind switching costs with you, muhoo
01:12	jeremyheiler	lol
01:13	talios	Mmm, I suppose - thats $500US, jeremyheiler - hey, if I went I'd be paying upward of $4000NZ in flights alone!
01:13	talios	i think.
01:13	jeremyheiler	talios: yikes!
01:13	muhoo	jeremyheiler: 1am there?
01:14	jeremyheiler	I imagine it's a lot -- it's already a pretty penny to fly to cali from ny.
01:14	talios	Mmm, no direct flights from Auckland to San Jose, what would be the closest international?
01:14	muhoo	hmm, then maybe i should take advantage of the opportunity to not have to fly then :-)
01:14	amalloy	sfo probly
01:14	muhoo	talios: SFO
01:15	muhoo	san jose is a relatively small airport
01:16	talios	$2,209.34 NZ return to San Francisco, then I'd just have to get from there to San Jose. Plus accom. FOR TWO DAYS. :)
01:16	muhoo	damn.
01:16	talios	If I went I'd make a week or so of it. But still, thats A LOT of coin.
01:16	muhoo	yep, i have a friend in australia, haven't been to visit him yet, in 10 years, just can't afford it.
01:16	muhoo	cross-pacific flights are crazy expensive.
01:17	jeremyheiler	muhoo: yep, it's 1am
01:18	muhoo	well i think i'm going to do it then, and see how it goes.
01:24	muhoo	ack, the early registration deadline was yesterday
01:24	muhoo	damn, coulda saved myself US$75. oh well.
01:25	jeremyheiler	muhoo: i can get you $25 due to this special thing they're doing.
01:25	jeremyheiler	$25 off*
01:28	muhoo	that'd be cool, thanks
01:28	jeremyheiler	pm me your email, i'll forward you the email they sent
01:28	muhoo	cool, thanks!
01:33	jeremyheiler	^ wanted that to say pokemon
02:51	yawNO	hello :D
02:51	yawNO	just started learning clj
02:56	jeremyheiler	yawNO: nice!
02:57	yawNO	i never thought i would have said that
02:58	yawNO	coming from ruby and js
02:58	yawNO	but i like it
02:58	yawNO	:D
02:58	jeremyheiler	Are you playing with ClojureScript, too?
02:59	yawNO	i started learning clj because of it
02:59	yawNO	i am mainly a nodejs developer
03:01	jeremyheiler	nice! there's a lot going on with cljs at the moment.
03:03	yawNO	jeremyheiler: is there a irc chan for cljs?
03:03	jeremyheiler	this is it
03:03	yawNO	ah
03:03	yawNO	lol
03:05	jeremyheiler	anywho, i need to get some shut-eye. hope to see your around yawNO!
03:14	clj_newb	can I capture the state of a graphics 2d in a BufferedImage? I currently want to have an optimization where I render graphics2D to a BufferedImage, then unless stuff changes, just repaint the bufferedImage instead of rerenderinb everything; the only question is: does this intermediate step reduce quality of rendering?
03:22	Licenser	clj_newb I don't think it will reduce the quality, AFAIK it is a common practice
03:26	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:31	Licenser	hi Blkt
03:32	Blkt	:D
03:32	clj_newb	Licenser: cool; any known drawbacks with this?
03:33	Licenser	more memory usage usually :)
03:33	clj_newb	I have something like 16GB of RAM
03:34	Licenser	some image containers even allow a double buffered mode wich allow you to draw in the background and just swap the buffers when done
03:34	clj_newb	is switching atomic?
03:34	Licenser	not sure, it has been a long time since I played with that kind of stuff
03:34	clj_newb	at the moment; Im creating new images and sending it to agents
03:35	Licenser	also it was back in Delphi with Borlands canvase objects
03:36	Licenser	also that does not sound too bad what you do
03:36	Licenser	what kind of place you use to draw them?
03:36	clj_newb	i'm writing a wygiwyg editor
03:36	clj_newb	rendering pages is expensive
03:36	Licenser	ah I see, and yes I understand that :)
03:36	clj_newb	which only needs to render when the document changes; not when I'm scorlling around, etc ...
03:37	Licenser	a wysiwyg or really wygiwyg?
03:37	clj_newb	these images I create on the fly on created, live shortly, and then die fast
03:37	clj_newb	so I think the java gc handles them well
03:37	clj_newb	lol
03:37	clj_newb	wygiwyg editor encaptures all editors I think
03:37	clj_newb	including LaTeX and MS Word
03:37	Licenser	^^
03:38	Licenser	Word is more a What I want is What You Get editor
03:38	clj_newb	s/I want/Clippy thinks is best/
03:39	Licenser	that is what I ment with I :P
04:09	clj_newb	do element sent to agents ever get released?
04:09	clj_newb	if so, when?
04:15	AWizzArd	clj_newb: what “elements” do you mean?
04:18	jondot	hi guys. i'm reading Storm clojure code on and off, i found this https://refheap.com/paste/492
04:19	jondot	since storm-cluster-state isn't used, can we replace the whole thing with just (when-let (:conf nimbus) .. ?
04:21	scottj	jondot: I don't think so, because (:conf nimbus) is not the same as ((:conf numbus) NIMBUS-REASSIGN)
04:22	scottj	you could probably do (when ((:conf nimbus) NIMBUS-REASSIGN)) (mk-assign..) though
04:22	jondot	let me rewrite that
04:22	scottj	removing the let entirely
04:23	IceD^	https://gist.github.com/1703536
04:24	IceD^	and when I'm trying to do get-messages on empty queue, exception is thrown, but I can't catch it
04:24	IceD^	https://gist.github.com/1703540
04:24	IceD^	any ideas?
04:25	jondot	how about this https://refheap.com/paste/493
04:29	scottj	jondot: no, you can't call (conf NIMBUS-REASSIGN) bc conf isn't bound ot anything
04:29	scottj	(when ((:conf nimbus) NIMBUS-REASSIGN) is what you want
04:30	scottj	make sure you always have a :conf though on your nimbus otherwise you'll get a nullpointerexception
04:33	IceD^	weird
04:35	jondot	scottj, right. well i don't work on Storm, but just reading for educational purposes. any idea why that code was left that way? https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/blob/master/src/clj/backtype/storm/daemon/nimbus.clj#L504
04:37	scottj	jondot: he probably used storm-cluster-state in an old version of the function and clojure doesn't have a "you're not using this variable" IDE helper so it's easy to miss
04:37	jondot	i see, ok
04:53	amro	I'm having trouble setting up clojurescript repl with chromium- I can see in the inspector that it's connecting, but the repl just hangs when I type in a form
04:53	jondot	im wondering about the benefits of clojurescript..
04:54	amro	not writing code in javascript
05:11	IceD^	ok guys, my lib is ready
05:11	IceD^	how do I distribute it ;]
05:12	Fossi	github? :)
05:12	foodoo	what about clojars?
05:13	Fossi	yeah, that too
05:13	jondot	amro, how about coffeescript?
05:14	raek	IceD^: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/wiki/tutorial
05:14	IceD^	yes, project will be on github in a min
05:14	IceD^	writing README
05:15	raek	you also have to register on Clojars http://clojars.org/register
05:15	scottj	README driven distribution.
05:15	IceD^	raek, that's what I need, thanks
05:16	raek	use semantic versioning
05:16	raek	and if your library is ready for use, realease it by making a non-SNAPSHOT version available
05:16	raek	for example 1.0.0
05:16	IceD^	raek, is is ;]
05:16	raek	great!
05:16	IceD^	tested it - everything works perfectly
05:17	IceD^	it's client for ironmq (http://iron.io)
05:17	raek	(you see a lot of 0.0.1-SNAPSHOT, even in production, these days)
05:17	IceD^	yeah, I know
05:17	IceD^	makes me angry
05:17	IceD^	btw - small code review 'd be nice
05:18	IceD^	https://gist.github.com/1703725
05:18	IceD^	I'm seasoned lisp dev, but used clojure only for fast internal things
05:18	IceD^	so it's possible my code isn't idiomatic
05:19	foodoo	IceD^: Please write proper documentation metadata
05:19	IceD^	foodoo, ofc
05:19	IceD^	FIXME will not let me forget this
05:20	IceD^	better yet, I'll make our doc guy do it ;)
05:20	foodoo	IceD^: I'm still not sure what this module does
05:20	scottj	IceD^: :use is not recommended unless you use :only
05:20	IceD^	it's api for ironmq ;]
05:20	raek	IceD^: namespace names have hyphens in them when the files have underscores in them
05:21	scottj	IceD^: also I think you can do & {:as options} and then not have to do (apply hash-map options)
05:21	raek	so (ns iron-mq-clojure.client ...) in the file src/iron_mq_clojure/client.clj
05:21	IceD^	hyphen - fixed
05:21	IceD^	what to use instead of :use
05:22	IceD^	I'm using only two funcs from there
05:22	scottj	IceD^: (:use chesire.core :only [list of functions you use])
05:22	yawnt	hai
05:22	raek	(:use [chesire.core :only [list of functions you use]])
05:22	yawnt	no prior experience w/ lisp
05:22	raek	the []s are needed for options
05:22	yawnt	which book should i begin w/?
05:23	yawnt	joy of clojure? clojure in action?
05:23	scottj	raek: thanks
05:23	foodoo	"programming clojure" is a good introductory book. But won't go deep into the language in my opinion
05:23	scottj	yawnt: I think JoC is ocnsidered more advanced.
05:24	yawnt	so foodoo .. what would your advice be?
05:24	yawnt	scottj: okay so not that one
05:24	CmdrDats	yawnt: I agree with foodoo - Programming Clojure is a good book to start
05:24	foodoo	probably "programming clojure" + "The joy of clojure" is a good combo?
05:24	yawnt	thx :D
05:24	CmdrDats	joy of clojure is amazing, but the pace is fast
05:25	yawnt	cause i heard a lot of people speaking about clojure in action too
05:25	raek	I would write (map (fn [m] (if (string? m) (create-message m) m)) messages)
05:25	raek	like this: (->> message (filter string?) (map create-message))
05:25	CmdrDats	i can't speak for clojure in action - haven't read it yet
05:25	CmdrDats	(i certainly intend to though! :P )
05:25	scottj	programming clojure has a new version coming out (not sure date) since the existing is slightly outdated
05:26	yawnt	existing is 2009
05:26	yawnt	afaik 1.2 brought major changes
05:26	yawnt	or was it 1.3?
05:26	raek	...or perhaps as (for [m messages :when (string? m)] (create-message m))
05:26	foodoo	sidenote: "programming clojure" was written with Clojure 1.2 in mind. The current version is Clojure 1.3
05:26	yawnt	foodoo: really?
05:26	yawnt	good to know
05:27	foodoo	But I think it's still very current.
05:27	foodoo	But there will be a new version somewhere in March I think
05:28	foodoo	(Amazon says 6th of April )
05:28	scottj	foodoo: I don't think so. I thought they released 1.0 FOR programming clojure. don't think it mentions deftype/protocol/record
05:28	raek	IIRC, programming clojure was written at the time of Clojure 1.1
05:28	IceD^	more advanced question
05:29	raek	I still think it's a good book, though
05:29	IceD^	I have multi-deps (for 1.2.1) in my project.clj
05:29	IceD^	how to test against them without pushing lib
05:29	raek	especially if you come from java or another oo language
05:30	foodoo	scottj: true, these topics aren't in the book
05:30	scottj	IceD^: in request fn, you could use destructuring to not repeat (:key client). you don't need do inside let. you could use doto to not repeat conn.
05:34	IceD^	removed do, used doto
05:34	IceD^	destructuring - how
05:38	scottj	IceD^: https://refheap.com/paste/494
05:38	scottj	IceD^: opps, you don't need two lets. move the contents of first into second.
05:39	scottj	IceD^: it's a debateable change since it no longer shows exactly where the data comes from at the point of use.
05:42	IceD^	scottj, ahh, considered that
05:42	IceD^	doesn't improve code from my poc
05:42	IceD^	pov*
05:42	scottj	yeah I probably agree
05:49	amro	jondot: I don't like it
05:50	amro	anyway I figured it out, I was missing <meta charset="UTF-8">
05:50	scottj	amro: that should be a FAQ
05:51	amro	indeed- or perhaps the js part should spit out an error
06:20	IceD^	https://github.com/iron-io/iron_mq_clojure - here we go
06:21	IceD^	thanks for your help guys
06:42	jbiesnecker	If anyone's interested, I'm putting together a number theory/other math library, available at: https://github.com/biesnecker/clj-numbers
06:42	jbiesnecker	Mostly Project Euler inspired now (and rough, because it's serving as my "let's learn Clojure" project), but I'm happy with the functionality it's starting to provide.
06:46	clgv	jbiesnecker: seeing 'digits and 'binary-digits why dont you just add a base for the digit representation? ;)
06:48	jbiesnecker	clgv: that's a good point (the answer is that digits came way before binary-digits, and I didn't think about it :)), I'll make that happen in the next release.
06:50	clgv	jbiesnecker:: I would also rewrite 'integers-larger-than and its friend with usage of 'iterate
06:51	jbiesnecker	clgv: Is there a particular reason for that? It would certainly be cleaner, but is there a performance difference between the two (or other reason/s)?
06:52	clgv	jbiesnecker: yes it's cleaner since it's just weird to use a double constant of infinity there. that might cause unforseen trouble whereas the other one is easy to check that its working ;)
06:53	jbiesnecker	clgv: good reasons all :)
06:59	jbiesnecker	clgv: (though actually the Double infinity constant is how range itself is implemented -- originally I wanted to do a negative range with a start and no end, didn't think of iterate, and looked up the source to range to figure out how they do it)
07:00	clgv	jbiesnecker: oh, thats bad programming then...
07:01	clgv	jbiesnecker: reading the source, that is due to the function organization. they have to have some end-value.
07:01	clgv	jbiesnecker: but the two function of yours do not need such an end value^^
07:02	jbiesnecker	clgv: right… iterate is clearly the better choice here
07:23	echo-area	Does anyone read /The Joy of Clojure/? The example using ThreadPoolExecutor via dothreads! won't work as 11.2.1 tells, as without shutdown'ing the executor the process will be hanged out there, right?
07:29	clgv	echo-area: well if you stay in a repl it should work like told. if you build a jar that might not exit without shutdown
07:33	echo-area	clgv: Okay thanks
07:34	echo-area	clgv: I'd like to write those examples in a file named some.clj then execute that file, as I think that's easier to be experimented with :)
07:34	clgv	echo-area: in the box you are told that it was written for demonstration purposes only
07:35	clgv	echo-area: what do you use as development environment?
07:35	echo-area	clgv: I see that. But I still want to change it a bit and see how things go
07:35	echo-area	clgv: Emacs + SLIME
07:35	clgv	echo-area: ah well then you should use REPL and file for experimenting ;)
07:36	clgv	echo-are: copy the function definitions in the file, reload and try them on the REPL
07:36	echo-area	clgv: Yes, I tried C-x C-e yesterday, but it seemed to hang too. I was confused. Maybe I did it wrong, nevermind
07:37	clgv	echo-area: cant help you with the emacs setup since I am member of the non-emacs minority ;)
07:38	echo-area	clgv: Okay. BTW, the diff between (board-map #(dosync (deref %)) board) and (board-map deref board) is that the former wait until all threads done but the latter just read an intermediate value, right?
07:39	clgv	echo-area: I dont remember the details of the board-map example and cant re-read them right now
07:40	clgv	echo-area: dosync is a transaction that you need to access the refs
07:41	echo-area	clgv: The board-map form is evaluated right after the threads get started. I don't understand the dosync form around deref
07:42	echo-area	To me, it seems there's no difference with or without the dosync form
07:45	clgv	echo-area: well the second will only work if it is somehow enclosed in a dosync directly or indirectly
07:47	echo-area	clgv: But I tried one without dosync, and it worked
07:48	echo-area	clgv: And the doc of `deref' says "Within a transaction, returns the in-transaction-value of ref, else returns the most-recently-committed value of ref."
07:50	clgv	ah ok. mixed it up then.
07:50	echo-area	What does that mean? Is there any difference between the two, for Ref's?
07:51	echo-area	Thanks
08:01	CmdrDats	hey guys, I'm busy building a small library for defining schema's in mysql, with auto-updating columns, indices and foreign keys.
08:01	CmdrDats	does that sound vaguely useful, or am I duplicating someone else's work?
08:23	clgv	CmdrDrats: you could search github and clojars for the related keywords and see what you find
08:35	CmdrDats	clgv: thanks - i can't find anything though.. this is how I define the entities currently : https://gist.github.com/1704412
08:36	CmdrDats	i'm staying away from trying to abstract SQL itself, too many libraries already doing that
08:37	CmdrDats	but defentity macro itself defines a defrecord and a couple of helper crud functions
08:38	clgv	CmdrDats: did you have a look if ClojureQL has something for what you do?
08:40	CmdrDats	clgv: i've looked, but everything is against an existing database - what I want is something to describe a database and then it must make sure the database is up to date and correct
08:40	clgv	CmdrDats: "database life cycle management" to express it in "manager speak"? :P
08:41	CmdrDats	hehe, i guess so :P
08:44	clgv	CmdrDats: what about that one? http://budu.github.com/lobos/
08:44	CmdrDats	looks promising
08:45	CmdrDats	except, ugh, it needs to express entities in their final state - not just a wrapper to SQL :P
08:45	CmdrDats	but i might actually incorporate lobos to gain a bit of abstraction from specifically mysql
08:46	CmdrDats	I've done quite a bit of work on this thing here at work, but I'm interested in pulling that out into a standalone library so I can open source it
08:59	RickInGA	I keep reading articles about using GPUs. Anyone know if Clojure can take advantage of heterogenius systemS?
09:07	clgv	RickInGA: si there a java for GPUs?
09:08	RickInGA	I don't know
09:08	clgv	afair I doubt that, since GPU computing is quite special
09:08	llasram	http://code.google.com/p/javacl/
09:08	clgv	only dialect for a compiler?
09:08	clgv	ah wrapper to opencl right.
09:09	RickInGA	Microsoft is pushing AMP as a way to write C++ for gpu's, and they are saying that right now most code using gpus is in C
09:09	clgv	I saw some CUDA stuff last year.
09:09	RickInGA	so the fact that a methodology for C++ is just being developed, or has just been developed, makes me think probably nothing else does it yet.
09:09	clgv	It was C++ as far as I remember
09:10	lucian	there was an example of compiling a small subset of clojure to shaders
09:10	lucian	theoretically it should be possible to write an OpenCL DSL
09:11	clgv	CLJ-GPU? ;)
09:11	RickInGA	is OpenCL just drawing stuff?
09:11	clgv	no that OpenGL ;)
09:11	lucian	RickInGA: OpenCL is just computing stuff
09:12	RickInGA	ah, wow
09:13	RickInGA	hehe, now that I see that it is possible, I am confronted with admitting I haven't the slightest idea what I will do with it :)
09:14	clgv	RickInGA: then let me tell you that you might be surprise how few that actually is ;)
09:16	RickInGA	It is a fun question... just what sort of software could possibly use a 100 core system?
09:16	RickInGA	we are going to have the hardware soon, but what are people going to do with it.
09:17	RickInGA	right now I am trying to learn HOW to do it. I will figure out the WHY somewhere along the way :)
09:23	clgv	RickInGA: the problem with GPU programming is that you dont have just 100 normal cores. they are very specialized and thus limited compared with normal CPUs
09:24	lucian	there certainly are things we could do if we could easily run a nice language on our GPUs
09:24	lucian	mostly numerical, though
09:24	RickInGA	Yeah, I know the C++ libraries put a lot of restrictions on what can be done
09:24	clgv	I guessed that ;)
09:25	RickInGA	I was jus thinking that one of Clojure's big selling points is the way it handles concurrency
09:25	lucian	RickInGA: so would a Clojure library, i would be a small incompatible subset of clojure
09:25	lucian	RickInGA: this would be possible because of homoiconicity, not STM
09:26	RickInGA	ok, how about this sort of setup. a clojure app that runs on the cpu, and when it can benifit from it, it dispatches work to a librarry running on the gpu
09:27	RickInGA	it is kind of foggy in my mind, but I think i am starting to get it :)
09:27	lucian	have you ever used vectorization libs, for things like SSE?
09:28	RickInGA	no, I haven't. Think that would be a good place for me to learn more?
09:28	lucian	you'd say something like (with-gpu (add 2 [1, 2, 3])) and you'd get [3, 4, 5]
09:28	lucian	pretty much all operators would be on matrices
09:29	RickInGA	It is such a cool time to be a developer
09:33	clgv	hm yeah I guess 1700 would have sucked to be software developer ;)
09:33	RickInGA	haha
09:38	foodoo	RickInGA: [on what to do with 100 cores:] solving differential equations
09:42	RickInGA	the 7 languages in 7 weeks book has a Sudoku solver in Prolog. In 4 lines of code you specify that 1: Only digits 1-9 are acceptable values, 2: values across have to be unique, 3: values down have to be unique and 4 each of the 9 3 by 3 squares have to have unique values.
09:42	RickInGA	It is up to the prolog 'compiler' to find the answer.
09:42	lucian	RickInGA: sure, but that's a special, limited case
09:42	RickInGA	I believe it does a depth first search on all possible solutions until a match is found
09:42	lucian	often it turns out that explaining the problem in that much detail is similar effort to solving it by other methods
09:43	lucian	but yeah, prolog is cool
09:43	RickInGA	that is something that could work on a heterogeneious (how do you spell that!) system
09:43	lucian	s/ei//
09:44	RickInGA	like you say, very limited application, but cool none the less
09:45	RickInGA	I want to check out core.logic. I think the sudoku app would be a fun one to play with.
09:53	gtrak	have there been any newer overtone videos lately?
09:54	RickInGA	I saw that someone ported Overtone to F# and called it Undertone :)
09:54	gtrak	ha
09:54	samaaron	RickInGA: haha, really?
09:54	samaaron	do you have a link?
09:54	RickInGA	yeah, one sec
09:54	samaaron	gtrak: no, there haven't been any newer overtone demo vids - just the interview i did with FLOSS
09:55	gtrak	ah ok
09:55	gtrak	hopefully confreaks gets their act together with the conj one :-)
09:55	samaaron	gtrak: unfortunately, I'm still dealing with my step-father's suicide
09:55	samaaron	gtrak: it's rough times for me atm
09:55	samaaron	gtrak: yeah, totally - it's been ages since the conj
09:55	samaaron	gtrak: it would be nice to have the presentation out there
09:55	RickInGA	http://strangelights.com/blog/archive/2012/01/27/undertone-ndash-programmable-music-in-f.aspx
09:55	gtrak	samaaron: ah, I'm sorry to hear that, but I really enjoyed your talk :-)
09:57	samaaron	RickInGA: awesome - thanks!
09:57	RickInGA	samaaron: sorry to hear about your loss
09:57	fdaoud	samaaron: sorry to hear that, my sympathies to you.
09:57	samaaron	RickInGA: yeah, i am too. It's just the suddenness of it which is the hardest to deal with.
09:58	samaaron	it's totally affected my productivity
09:58	samaaron	life is very fragile - and we should enjoy it to the very best of our abilities!
09:59	samaaron	fdaoud: thanks :-)
09:59	samaaron	still, people's continuing enthusiasm with Overtone is really helping me along
10:00	samaaron	you should read http://twitter.com/overtone for some of the wonderfully positive things people have been saying
10:01	RickInGA	I haven't checked it out yet. I heard your interview on mostly lazy a couple of weeks ago, I do want to try it out
10:02	samaaron	RickInGA: have you seen the FLOSS interview?
10:02	samaaron	http://twit.tv/show/floss-weekly/197?page=1
10:02	RickInGA	The f# article made it sound like using overtone was a help to learning clojure
10:02	samaaron	RickInGA: yeah, i think Overtone is a great way of learning Clojure - learning through doing
10:03	RickInGA	so to use overtone I will write clojure expressions?
10:03	samaaron	RickInGA: of course :-) everything is in Clojure
10:03	clojurebot	Roger.
10:03	RickInGA	Awesome, this is one developer who needs his own theme music!!
10:06	samaaron	haha
10:08	samaaron	RickInGA: so the top-level overview is that you design synths using Clojure macros. These then compile down to special binary form which the sound synthesis engine SuperCollider understands. SuperCollider then reifies these designs meaning that they can be triggered and controlled. This triggering and controlling is done via normal Clojure fns.
10:09	RickInGA	I am just starting to watch the video now, I will be downloading soon
10:09	RickInGA	probably have a barrage of questions for you tomorrow :)
10:10	samaaron	RickInGA: you're welcome. You're free to pester me on freenode. I also hang out in #overtone. Also, the Overtone mailing list is a great place for longer questions
10:11	RickInGA	Since I have started playing with Clojure, I keep finding more and more fun ways to not get any work done.
10:12	clgv	RickInGA: lol, I hoe you'll also find the complement ;)
10:12	samaaron	RickInGA: just redefine your notion of 'work'
10:14	RickInGA	speaking of complement... I was on 4clojure yesterday... trying to omit every nth occurrence. I did filter(complement (= 0 (rem ndx n))) (ok, the vars are tough to follow).. but anyway, compliment didn't work and not did.
10:14	RickInGA	how are complement and not different?
10:15	RickInGA	samaaron: yes, I am not playing or wasting time I am "learning"... its an investment, right?
10:15	samaaron	RickInGA: always :-)
10:15	samaaron	never close your mind
10:16	samaaron	play is very important too though
10:17	RickInGA	speaking of "play" does anyone know anything about less conf? I saw the Relevence guys said they were goign to be there, so I wondered what it was.
10:17	RickInGA	And if you go to the less conf site, they wont tell you
10:18	RickInGA	their videos are pretty good though :)
10:19	RickInGA	I am thinking about going, just because it is in Atlanta, which means I don't have to pay for lodging, but I really have no idea what it is
10:19	RickInGA	http://lessconf.lesseverything.com/
10:21	RickInGA	ah, there is an emacs plugin too
10:22	noidi	RickInGA, complement returns a function that's the opposite of the given predicate
10:22	noidi	,((complement =) 2 2)
10:22	clojurebot	false
10:23	RickInGA	noidi: I was trying to filter a sequence. I wrote the code that would only take every third item (= 0 (rem ndx 3)).
10:24	RickInGA	I thought wrapping that in complement would exclude every third item, but instead I got the whole sequence. wrapping it in not gave me what I expected
10:25	noidi	not operates on boolean values, returning their negation, while complement works on functions returning boolean values, returning new functions which call the original function and negate the return value
10:26	clgv	how about not= ;)
10:26	RickInGA	hah, didn't look for not= that would work too
10:27	fdaoud	cemerick: I know it's not on you but-- has your book really been delayed again, this time until end of April? Now it's not funny anymore. :(
10:27	fdaoud	www.amazon.com/Clojure-Programming-Chas-Emerick/dp/1449394701#productDetails
10:27	cemerick	holy shit!
10:28	cemerick	ahem. Sorry.
10:28	cemerick	fdaoud: No, I hadn't seen that.
10:28	fdaoud	cemerick: no don't apologize, I'm glad you're as "wtf?" as I am..
10:31	TimMc	RickInGA: Wow, reading the blog on lesseverything makes me want to punch a kitten.
10:32	RickInGA	hah, I didn't look at the blog
10:32	TimMc	Don't, it's terrible.
10:32	RickInGA	I liked the video about who is speaking
10:32	RickInGA	I haven't decided if it is a really cool conference, or a way to get people to fork out a bunch of money to hang out and eat pizza for 2 days
10:33	clgv	there is a blog?
10:34	TimMc	Yeah, apparently written by two angry, illiterate rhinoceri.
10:34	RickInGA	noidi: I don't know why I am having so much difference grasping why complement didn't work for me, but not did. Is this the right way to think about it, complement works on a function and not works on an expression?
10:35	clgv	TimMc: hmm guess I found it as well
10:35	TimMc	clgv: I read the grammar post and skimmed the REST post.
10:36	TimMc	RickInGA: Right.
10:36	RickInGA	thx
10:37	TimMc	RickInGA: You might say that 'complement is the HOF version of 'not
10:37	noidi	RickInGA, if you want the opposite of a boolean value, use not. if you want the opposite of a predicate function, use complement.
10:37	RickInGA	HOF = higher order function?
10:37	TimMc	yeah
10:37	TimMc	noidi: That's a great way of putting it.
10:38	wiseen	is there a clojure reader/writer library that will serilaize to clojure data, for clojure and clojurescript ?
10:38	TimMc	wiseen: pr-str
10:38	TimMc	That's a function, not a library.
10:39	RickInGA	noidi: thanks, I will try to remember it that way.
10:39	TimMc	wiseen: and read-string to get it back (look up read-eval before using it)
10:39	RickInGA	(though, repl makes memory less critical, hey that didnt work try the other one)
10:40	wiseen	TimMc, is it consistent across clojure and clojurescript ?
10:41	wiseen	eg. if I send "#user.Foo{:x 1}" to clojurescript - does it have the same reader syntax ?
10:42	RickInGA	"overtone wants to make electronic music a performable art" -- WOW
10:43	samaaron	RickInGA: yep, that's the goal
10:43	samaaron	RickInGA: so everything needs to be achievable live and in real time
10:44	raek	wiseen: for all "normal" data (vectors, sequences, maps, strings, numbers, keywords, etc) it is definitely consistent
10:44	samaaron	RickInGA: where did you find taht quote?
10:44	raek	I'm not sure about records
10:44	wiseen	raek, and defrecord ?
10:44	RickInGA	you are blowing my mind. I can think of non-programming friends, barely programming friends, and only know visual foxpro friends, that I am going to have to show this to
10:44	samaaron	RickInGA: haha, excellent. Mind-blowing is a hobby of mine
10:44	raek	records are a bit special in that they are data + type
10:45	RickInGA	samarron: Probably not an exact quote, but you said it in the twit.tv link you provided. About 12 minutes in.
10:45	RickInGA	go to 11:45, and you may have to watch for 30 second
10:45	samaaron	RickInGA: ah cool. It's definitely the kind of thing I would say :-)
10:46	RickInGA	are you going to clojure west?
10:46	RickInGA	nm
10:46	RickInGA	I remembered, you are one of the presenters
10:47	RickInGA	hah, the host of the interview is pretty good "I like the idea of using emacs to do all that. I like to think that Jimi Hendrix would have been a wizard on emacs"
10:47	TimMc	You can't spell "juxt" without "Jimi Hendrix", and also some other letters.
10:49	RickInGA	samaaron: I hope I am not skipping ahead, you have this thing called a monome that has lots of buttons on it. Does each of the buttons fire an event.... kind of like joystics with macro buttons for gaming?
10:50	metajack1	RickInGA: The monome speaks OSC protocol, so you essentially get a udp packet for every button press and release, etc.
10:51	samaaron	RickInGA: that's exactly the way my monome lib presents to Clojure - you write handlers which are called on trigger (on/off) events
10:51	metajack1	you can also send light up messages to rows, buttons, columns, or various squares of grid
10:51	samaaron	metajack1: actually, the monome only speaks serial
10:51	samaaron	metajack1: however, you can run a separate process which will talk serial and present OSC
10:51	metajack1	samaaron: but everything runs off of the OSC udp side. nothing talks directly to the serial part except monomecontrol right?
10:51	samaaron	metajack1: or you can use my monome lib which talks directly to the serial protocol
10:51	metajack1	(i have a monome)
10:51	metajack1	ah.
10:52	RickInGA	but a button could be a note, or a chord or a melody... and if buttons are notes, then you can press a few at once for a chord
10:52	metajack1	i ahve previously only used it from Reaktor and Max
10:52	samaaron	metajack1: cool. so the separate process thing was called MonomeSerial if I recall correctly
10:52	metajack1	samaaron: yeah, that's right.
10:52	samaaron	metajack1: so with my monome lib, you don't need MonomeSerial
10:52	metajack1	i also have the launchpad which is similar but speaks midi. not as responsive as the monome if you have a lot going on
10:53	samaaron	metajack1: Phil Potter is working on making my monome stuff work with the launchpad
10:53	metajack1	is there a technical reason to skip the monomeserial thing?
10:53	metajack1	or does that only exist because Max doesn't speak serial?
10:53	RickInGA	can you have a button that represents a tempo, so if I press button one, it is a melody at 80 bpm, but have another button that multiplies any tempo by 1.5, so both keys give the same melody played at 120bpm?
10:53	samaaron	metajack1: no technical reason other than i wanted to remove deps
10:54	samaaron	RickInGA: yep, all doable :-)
10:54	RickInGA	If I had a job and musical ability, I think I would quit my job and play with overtone all day!
10:54	samaaron	RickInGA: that's exactly what i did for a year :-)
10:55	TimMc	RickInGA: You're half-way there already!
10:55	RickInGA	haha, true!
10:55	samaaron	RickInGA: and i didn't have any musical ability
10:55	samaaron	so i think you're all the way there ;-)
11:01	samaaron	does anyone know how i might discover the escape sequence for specific key combinations?
11:01	TimMc	samaaron: Context?
11:01	samaaron	TimMc: so in emacs, when I hit C-M-l emacs doesn't register it
11:02	samaaron	yet when I do C-M-SHIFT-l, emacs registers it as C-M-l
11:02	TimMc	haha, what
11:02	samaaron	which makes me wonder if my terminal is doing the right thing...
11:02	samaaron	so, my terminal (iTerm2) allows me to register escape sequences for key combos
11:03	TimMc	samaaron: Try using ESC for meta, see what happens: Esc, C-l
11:04	samaaron	TimMc: that works fine
11:05	gtrak	programming and music feel like the same mental process to me, reasoning about structure, trying to maximize aesthetics, doing one well helps the other
11:07	gtrak	I think overtone makes the connection more obvious :-)
11:08	samaaron	gtrak: that's exactly how i feel too :-)
11:10	gtrak	it's interesting stuff
11:11	samaaron	gtrak: thanks :-)
11:12	RickInGA	I need to head out. Thanks all for the good answers. ANd thanks samaaron for the new toy :)
11:12	TimMc	samaaron: So Emacs is not at fault.
11:14	samaaron	TimMc: yeah, i didn't think it was Emacs' fault
11:27	TimMc	amalloy_: While grepping my logs for something else, I noticed you said "i just wish people would stop going map->seq->map, which gets you the worst of both worlds performance-wise" -- were you talking about the general case of mapping over the keys and values of maps, or was this likely taken out of context?
11:42	axle_512_	(+ 2 2)
11:42	clojurebot	4
11:43	clgv	(* 2 2)
11:43	clojurebot	4
11:44	axle_512_	(pow 2 2)
11:44	dgrnbrg	,(pow 2 2)
11:44	clgv	yeah that one is missing^^
11:44	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pow in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:44	axle_512_	dang
11:48	TimMc	(+ 1 5) ; axle_512_
11:48	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
11:48	clgv	hmm the next operation fits as well 2!!2=2^2 :D
11:48	TimMc	You have to use the eval trigger, \,
11:49	clgv	,(pow 2 2)
11:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pow in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:49	clgv	;)
11:49	axle_512_	Why does the arithmetic operator not require the veal trigger, but pow does?
11:49	TimMc	amalloy_: It's a factoid Clojurebot has stored, that happens to be correct.
11:49	axle_512_	veal trigger, that is.
11:49	TimMc	ugh, sorry ^ axle_512_
11:50	axle_512_	ah, ok
11:50	axle_512_	,(+ 1 5)
11:50	clojurebot	6
11:50	TimMc	clojurebot: (+ 2 3) is 42
11:50	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
11:50	TimMc	~(+ 2 3)
11:50	clojurebot	(+ 2 3) is 42
11:50	axle_512_	got it, thanks Tim
11:52	TimMc	clojurebot: forget (+ 2 3) \|is\| 42
11:52	clojurebot	I forgot that (+ 2 3) is 42
11:52	TimMc	Actually, that might not be part of the factoids module. It's a pretty weird bot.
11:52	axle_512_	haha
11:54	TimMc	lazybot is faster, but doesn't allow certain constructs, such as 'binding and 'resolve (for security reasons)
11:54	bleakgadfly	,(/ 1 998001)
11:54	clojurebot	1/998001
11:54	bleakgadfly	,(/ 1 998001.0)
11:54	clojurebot	1.002003004005006E-6
11:55	axle_512_	TimMc: how do you interface with lazybot?
11:56	TimMc	axle_512_: &(+ 2 2) at the beginning of a line, ##(+ 2 2) in the middle (although that only triggers for parenthesized forms)
11:56	lazybot	⇒ 4
11:56	cemerick	,(with-precision 500 (/ 1 998001.0M))
11:56	clojurebot	0.00000100200300400500600700800901001101201301401501601701801902002102202302402502602702802903003103203303403503603703803904004104204304404504604704804905005105205305405505605705805906006106206306406506606706806907007107207307407507607707807908008108208308408508608708808909009109209309409509609709809910010110210310410510610710810911011111211311411511611711811912012112212312412512612712812913013113...
11:56	cemerick	bleakgadfly: ^^
11:56	axle_512_	&(pow 2 2)
11:56	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pow in this context
11:57	axle_512_	TimMc: ok, thanks
11:57	TimMc	axle_512_: And there are some $commands too:
11:57	TimMc	$findfn 2 3 8
11:57	lazybot	[]
11:57	TimMc	^ no pow, you'll have to use Math/pow
11:58	clgv	&(Math/pow 2 2)
11:58	lazybot	⇒ 4.0
11:58	axle_512_	TimMc: Can you defn to create your own functions?
11:59	TimMc	Not in a sandbox.
11:59	TimMc	You can use 'let and 'letfn, though.
11:59	axle_512_	can you use lamdas?
11:59	TimMc	absolutely
12:00	TimMc	The problem with 'defn is the 'def bit.
12:01	axle_512_	&(filter (fn [x] (> x 0)) [-1 0 1 2 3])
12:01	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
12:01	axle_512_	cool
12:03	TimMc	&(map #(* 5 %) (range -1 4))
12:03	lazybot	⇒ (-5 0 5 10 15)
12:12	bleakgadfly	If I want to create a library to work both on Clojure for JRE and Clojure for CLR, AND use native bindings in the same library: Is it possible to figure out, in Clojure, if the library is being run on JRE or CLR and choose to execute the part of the code which is written for the platform the library is being run for? Or would I have to create an own library for CLR and one for JRE? I'm thinking
12:12	bleakgadfly	sort of like the #ifdef you can find in some C headers that are platform-dependent.
12:13	bleakgadfly	s/the library is being run for/the library is being run on/
12:19	TimMc	bleakgadfly: With on-the-fly compilation, you can have macros check the current runtime and set up the environment as appropriate.
12:28	jeremyheiler1	bleakgadfly: I haven't thought about this too much, but I imagine having three projects: one of them pure clojure code, and then depend it from a java version, and a clr version, and add the platform specific stuff. you can hoose your poison for how you want to abstract it, though. In either case, it would be interesting to see how you make out with whatever solution that ends up working for you.
12:33	Bronsa	is there a funciton that returns [(take-while pred coll) (drop-while pred coll)]?
12:35	Vinzent	Bronsa, split-with?
12:35	Bronsa	thanks.
12:49	jsabeaudry	You can use defn- for functions that should not be exported. Is there something similar for constants and macros?
12:51	Vinzent	jsabeaudry, use :private metadata
12:52	jsabeaudry	Vinzent, alrighty, was curious to see if there was something less verbose that already existed, thanks!
12:53	Vinzent	jsabeaudry, defmacro- and def- was somewhere in contrib, but it looks like they won't be included in core (maybe even defn- will get deprecated someday)
12:55	JohnnyL	what's the sense of having [] over ()?
12:56	Vinzent	JohnnyL, [] is an empty vector, () is an empty list
12:57	TimMc	and you usually want vectors
12:57	jeremyheiler1	JohnnyL: Can you provide more context, unless Vinzent answered your question.
13:04	edw	Anyone here deploying to Heroku? Is there a way to speed up deploys? 'lein deps' is making incremental development deeply painful.
13:07	TimMc	edw: I think I saw some kind of cure for that...
13:12	technomancy	edw: I'm working on a way to get dynos to support swank/nrepl connections so you can do development more interactively
13:12	technomancy	doesn't help when you need to add/remove deps of course
13:12	technomancy	though your ~/.m2 should be cached in between deploys
13:21	jcrossley3	technomancy: is it not possible to run (swank.swank/start-server) on an app deployed to heroku?
13:22	cemerick	technomancy: BTW, waiting on Meikel for a patch containing his bencode impl at the moment. nrepl-over-http was a snap, though some thought will need to go into the correspondence (or not) of HTTP sessions to nrepl sessions.
13:23	bartj	I would like to parse HTML DOM to compare HTML nodes
13:23	technomancy	jcrossley3: it is possible, but right now the routing mesh only routes HTTP requests, not raw sockets. we are working on a raw TCP router, but it's not ready yet.
13:23	bartj	on the looks of it, Enlive does not like like the right library
13:23	bartj	can someone please suggest an option ?
13:24	technomancy	jcrossley3: even with the TCP router, each process can only listen on a single port, so your swank server process couldn't also respond to HTTP requests.
13:24	jcrossley3	technomancy: i was JUST about to ask that. :)
13:24	TimMc	bartj: Enlive scrapes HTML into a pretty regular data structure, what's wrong with it?
13:24	technomancy	jcrossley3: my plan is to get it to make an outbound SSH connection to a proxy server that can reverse-tunnel
13:25	Vinzent	bartj, standard clojure xml tools + some java html parser lib
13:25	technomancy	cemerick: yeah, really looking forward to trying that out.
13:25	JohnnyL	jeremyheiler: what makes [a b] in use rather than (a b) <--clojure newb
13:25	bartj	scraping assumes you know the structure of the HTML page before hand
13:26	bartj	but, what if you want to parse it, get the first child, sibling, descendants, etc.
13:26	bartj	which led me to conclude that it might not be what I need
13:26	jcrossley3	technomancy: so with the proxy server, that preserves the HTTP port for the process, right? so i could do both?
13:27	jeremyheiler1	a vector is constant time look up and you append things at the end. a list is linear lookup, and appends things at the beginning.
13:27	jeremyheiler1	JohnnyL: ^
13:27	technomancy	jcrossley3: yup
13:27	jcrossley3	cool
13:28	cemerick	technomancy: right now, I just have a ring-suitable handler fn that does what seems like a sane transformation from HTTP req -> nrepl req -> HTTP response. Some thought will need to go into figuring out the best HTTP representation and maybe "standard" routes so non-Clojure tools can have a shot at using the endpoint sanely.
13:29	JohnnyL	jeremyheiler: ok
13:29	technomancy	cemerick: is this public anywhere?
13:29	JohnnyL	jeremyheiler: are vectors hashes?
13:30	jeremyheiler1	JohnnyL: Also, vectors are generally preferred because by default lists will be invoked as a function call unless quoted.
13:30	bereal	Hi. what is fn*, please ?
13:30	jeremyheiler1	JohnnyL: vectors are more like indexed arrays (at face value)
13:30	bereal	as in the output of (macroexpand '(fn [] 1))
13:31	cemerick	technomancy: not yet; blocking on a patch to get https://bitbucket.org/kotarak/wire into nREPL w/ some fixes (can't have outside deps in contrib). Shouldn't be long, last I heard.
13:31	jeremyheiler1	bereal: it's an internal function used by clojure as it's bootstrapping itself, i believe.
13:32	technomancy	cemerick: cool; let me know once it's ready
13:32	bereal	jeremyheiler1: aha, so it's not useful for a regular coder
13:34	bartj	TimMc, do you concur ?
13:37	TimMc	sorry, working atm
13:40	TimMc	bartj: OK, caught up. No, Enlive parses the whole page and hands it to you as a DOM tree.
13:40	TimMc	You can run selectors on it.
13:41	jeremyheiler1	bereal: Actually, looking at the code, I think fn* is the function that internally represents fn, which is a special form.
13:44	bartj	I am unable to do any searches on Google for enlive related stuff. eg: [clojure enlive dom tree]
13:45	bartj	the only stuff Google returns is clojurescript related. Bah!
13:45	bartj	and even "-clojurescript" doesn't lead anywhere
13:47	TimMc	You may want to use verbatim search, which is their new option to replace +
13:47	JohnnyL	thanks jeremyheiler.
13:48	bartj	TimMc, do you have any references/code samples ?
13:48	TimMc	bartj: Sort of -- it doesn't use Enlive for what you want to do, probably. https://github.com/timmc/seqs-and-colls/blob/master/src/seqs/core.clj
14:09	gfredericks	I'm trying to learn enlive...what select would I use for "all p tags that come after h2 tags"?
14:10	gfredericks	s/select/selector
14:14	amalloy	TimMc: i'm mostly echoing hiredman's objection, that if you are treating a map as just a sequence of k/v pairs, you're spending cpu time and cluttering up your source code by converting it to a sequence, then back to a map, over and over as each step of your application says it "needs" a map but actually treats it as a seq
14:15	amalloy	better to do as much transformation as you can on the k/v pairs, and slam it back into a map only when code you don't own finally needs a map
14:15	dnolen	gfredericks: not sure if you can get just the p tags, but you can definitely get a range h2 p
14:17	TimMc	gfredericks: In CSS, that would be something like h2 + p or h2 ~ p
14:18	gfredericks	hmm
14:18	gfredericks	I was trying things like [:p :> :h2]
14:18	gfredericks	based on browsing the source code
14:19	gfredericks	the function called "left" sounds related based on its docstring
14:22	TimMc	gfredericks: > is the child selector
14:43	technomancy	trying to track down a leiningen bug; does anyone know of a :type "pom" dependency I could use to test?
14:49	fliebel	Hey awesome community, long time no see
14:50	mrb_bk	leiningen question: i'm trying to use the edge checkout of overtone in my project. i symlink to the project directory from /checkouts, and leave overtone in the project.clj
14:50	mrb_bk	but it's forcing me to use a version number -- what do i use?
14:51	mrb_bk	or do i not have to put overtone in the project.clj?
14:51	samaaron	mrb_bk: putting overtone in project.clj shouldn't make a difference
14:51	technomancy	whatever the newest published version of overtone is
14:51	samaaron	yoru checkout dir should take precidence
14:52	technomancy	no, you need it in project.clj; otherwise you won't get deps
14:52	technomancy	checkout dependencies aren't transitive
14:52	mrb_bk	technomancy: whatever the most recent version # on clojars is?
14:52	technomancy	should be
14:52	samaaron	technomancy: i still haven't switched from cake, so i'm still unsure of the process of doing this with lein
14:53	mrb_bk	okay i'll try that again, before it seemed like it wasn't actually taking precedence
14:53	technomancy	mrb_bk: whoever checks out your project should be able to make it work with the version in project.clj; checkout deps are only there for your convenience
14:53	samaaron	but in cake you can specify the dep in project.clj but that is overridden if you put a project dir in the classpath
14:53	technomancy	mrb_bk: if you need to check which is taking precedence, you can inspect "lein classpath"
14:53	mrb_bk	technomancy: that's interesting, but doesn't it make sense to be able to specify edge code?
14:53	mrb_bk	for example if certain examples won't work in the published version
14:54	technomancy	mrb_bk: then you'd want a snapshot
14:55	samaaron	technomancy: so when i'm hacking overtone I use a scratchpad project which never gets shared with others
14:55	mrb_bk	technomancy: sure, that makes sense
14:55	technomancy	if the project isn't publishing snapshots frequently enough you can always locally do "lein install" from your checkout dir, but that is a breakdown of the normal process; it's not the usual case
14:56	samaaron	the aim being to be able to hack on a dep of the scratchpad project (overtone) without having to worry about teaching the scratchpad project about the exact specifics of the version of overtone i'm working with
14:57	technomancy	samaaron: so you want the dependencies of the checkout dep to apply transitively?
14:57	mrb_bk	technomancy: thanks a lot! it seems like the classpath has the dir of my checked out version, but the published jar is also there
14:57	samaaron	technomancy: i'm unsure of what you specifically mean by "transitively" in this context
14:58	technomancy	samaaron: if "scratchpad" has overtone in its project.clj, overtone's dependencies come in via overtone's pom. you have overtone as a checkout dependency in addition to a regular dependency, and that should give you both overtone's dependencies as well as its source straight on the classpath.
14:59	technomancy	but having it as a checkout deps without putting it in project.clj won't work because overtone's deps won't be visible to scratchpad
14:59	samaaron	technomancy: does that give me the source as a git checkout?
14:59	technomancy	right
14:59	samaaron	ok cool
15:00	samaaron	so a checkout dependency is a git uri?
15:00	technomancy	no, it's a checkout
15:00	amalloy	it's just a directory
15:00	amalloy	you point it at your existing git checkout (usually with a symlink)
15:00	technomancy	cd scratchpad; mkdir checkouts; cd checkouts; git clone git@github.com/overtone/overtone.git
15:00	technomancy	(or symlink)
15:00	samaaron	ok, and i choose how to populate that directory
15:00	mrb_bk	technomancy: should the other jar not be in that classpath? or should it
15:01	technomancy	mrb_bk: fewer pronouns please? =)
15:01	mrb_bk	technomancy: haha sorry
15:01	mrb_bk	technomancy: the overtone 0.6.0 jar is showing in the classpath, along with the directory i symlinked to in checkouts
15:01	mrb_bk	technomancy: lein classpath that is
15:01	samaaron	mrb_bk: which appears first?
15:02	mrb_bk	samaaron: checkouts
15:02	technomancy	mrb_bk: yeah, as long as the checkout is first, it should "win"
15:03	samaaron	sounds like a RACE!
15:03	ckirkendall	acagle: ping
15:03	mrb_bk	technomancy: yay
15:03	samaaron	go checkout!
15:05	mrb_bk	samaaron: okay now i'm getting an error FileNotFoundException Could not locate seesaw/core__init.class or seesaw/core.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:430)
15:07	samaaron	mrb_bk: sounds like a dep issue - I'm assuming the deps in the checkout of overtone edge don't match overtone 0.6
15:07	mrb_bk	yeah :/
15:07	mrb_bk	technomancy: any thoughts? or is this a lib issue?
15:08	samaaron	technomancy: what's the lein-idiomatic solution for dealing with a checkout dep with different deps to the released jar?
15:09	technomancy	samaaron: I'd recommend pushing a new snapshot whenever your deps change
15:09	technomancy	snapshots are cheap
15:09	jondot2	hi guys. trying to make an HTTP get, should i go with whats in contrib or there is the way to stay in core for this?
15:09	samaaron	mrb_bk: i usually circumnavigate that problem by just hacking in the different deps to my scratch project's project.clj
15:09	samaaron	technomancy: sounds sensible
15:09	mrb_bk	ah, it works after 'lein install'
15:09	brehaut	jondo2: ideally you want clj-http, otherwise you can just stick with java.net.URL (which is crappy)
15:09	mrb_bk	oh wait no it doesn't
15:09	mrb_bk	haha
15:10	edw	technomancy: You mentioned 'my' ~/.m2; does my Heroku account have one of those?
15:10	mrb_bk	samaaron: can haz snapshot?
15:11	samaaron	mrb_bk: working on it right this moment - had to shake the cat of my chest
15:11	samaaron	s/of/off/
15:11	technomancy	edw: yeah, it's cached in between builds, but I'm a bit fuzzy on when the cache gets cleared.
15:11	mrb_bk	hahah thanks
15:11	mrb_bk	the cat of your chest?
15:11	samaaron	yep, my cat
15:11	mrb_bk	i hope the dog of your head isn't scaring her too much
15:11	samaaron	luckily the dog is away for a week
15:11	technomancy	edw: I have seen a few cases where the cache isn't being respected; if you have a repeatable case of this I could take a look.
15:12	johncourtland	has anyone had (proxy) throw ClassCastException: clojure.asm.Type cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn in clj 1.3?
15:12	jondot2	so lein is using maven to handle the heavy lifting?
15:12	edw	Hmm. I'm inquiring over on #heroku.
15:12	johncourtland	i have no idea how it gets in that state
15:13	technomancy	edw: don't bother; that channel is a wasteland. =(
15:14	technomancy	half the traffic is that stupid broken bot announcing itself over and over and the other half is rails questions
15:14	edw	Hey, I'm actually getting a human who works there checking with their Java dudes. A first time for everything!
15:15	muhoo	i wouldn't be surprised if 90% of heroku apps are rails
15:15	edw	Given that up until 3-6 mo ago, 100% were RoR...
15:16	technomancy	edw: I need to grab lunch in a few, but give me a ping later if you haven't resolved the caching issue.
15:16	jsabeaudry	Is keep-indexed the most idiomatic way to keep every second value of a sequence? (keep-indexed #(if (odd? %1) true nil)) [1 2 3 4])
15:17	edw	technomancy: Thank you. Will do.
15:18	brehaut	jsabeaudry: take-nth
15:18	brehaut	,(take-nth 2 (range 10))
15:18	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8)
15:18	brehaut	,(take-nth 2 (rest (range 10)))
15:18	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 9)
15:19	jsabeaudry	brehaut, Ah nice, thanks! That long keed-indexed line was suspicious :)
15:20	johncourtland	is anything wrong with this (as a test)?: (proxy [java.lang.Object] [] (toString [] "proxy's toString"))
15:20	amalloy	johncourtland: no, though i'd prefer reify
15:21	johncourtland	i thought you could only implement interfaces/protocols via reify
15:21	brehaut	johncourtland: object is the exception
15:22	johncourtland	ok, good to know
15:22	johncourtland	i'm actually having issues compiling clojure.logging from within a grails runtime
15:22	johncourtland	it has a proxy to ByteArrayOutputStream in there
15:23	johncourtland	and using clojure 1.3, i get that exception i asked about (ClassCastException: clojure.asm.Type cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn)
15:23	samaaron	technomancy: what's the situation with lein 2.0? Is it on the immediate horizon?
15:23	johncourtland	in 1.2 it works fine
15:23	johncourtland	i have tried tracing code for days and i'm not seeing any reason that it should be trying to apply clojure.asm.Type
15:24	johncourtland	so i tried that simple proxy and i get the same issue
15:26	johncourtland	the only thing i can think of is that the grails runtime is causing proxy to behave poorly, because it obviously works fine outside of grails itself
15:27	cwardell	Help needed. I am trying to load a .clj file from within a java jar. I am getting an error: Could not locate Clojure resource on classpath. My call is just a RT.loadResourceScript(cljPath) - The cljPath is a string holding the path to a hello-world.clj relative to the jar file. Any ideas?
15:29	hiredman	is the resource on the classpath?
15:30	danlarkin	ohhhhhhh burnnnnnnnnnnnn
15:30	hiredman	~burn
15:30	clojurebot	Pardon?
15:31	cwardell	yes
15:31	muhoo	&(def burn "ouuuch!")
15:31	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
15:31	hiredman	~burn
15:31	clojurebot	what
15:32	cwardell	the resource is place on the class path with the other jar.
15:32	muhoo	so does that error mean it can't locate Clojure (i.e. clojure.jar is not on cp), or that it can't locate the foo.clj file?
15:33	muhoo	also, wait a minute. clojure is compiled. why would it need a foo.clj file to run a clojure program from java?
15:33	muhoo	wouldn't you just compile the clojure source, make a jar of the classes, and then use them like any other java classes (also including any deps in the cp too)?
15:34	cwardell	I believe it finds the clojure jar ok. That was assembled into my jar. It's the *.clj that I am trying to pull in at runtime
15:34	jondot2	whats an idiomatic way to update a single key of a hash within a hash ?
15:34	muhoo	cwardell: and i have to wonder: why?
15:35	jeremyheiler1	jondot2: update-in
15:35	cwardell	I have a java app that I would like to extend with clojure.
15:35	jondot2	jeremyheiler, thanks - how would that relate to assoc?
15:35	cwardell	Having end-users writing code in clojure and have my java app execute the functionality.
15:36	muhoo	oh, ok
15:36	jeremyheiler1	&(update-in {:a {:b 1}} [:a :b] #(inc %))
15:36	lazybot	⇒ {:a {:b 2}}
15:36	jeremyheiler1	There's also assoc-in
15:36	jondot2	jeremyheiler i see. i would need assoc-in imho
15:38	jeremyheiler1	jondot2: This assumes that you know the path to the value, though.
15:38	jondot2	yes, i know it
15:38	jeremyheiler1	cool, just being explicit :-)
15:38	muhoo	cwardell: i dunno. i'd guess treat it like it was a repl, use the regular (require ) stuff?
15:38	jondot2	yup, thanks!
15:40	amalloy	you probably don't want assoc-in to do dissocs; update-in is more general and useful for this
15:41	jondot2	there are so many ways to shape the braces, i wonder if any LISP convention is valid for clojure ?
15:41	amalloy	&(let [m {:a 1 {:b 2 :c 3}]] (update-in m [:a] dissoc :c))
15:41	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]
15:41	amalloy	&(let [m {:a 1 {:b 2 :c 3}}] (update-in m [:a] dissoc :c))
15:41	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms
15:41	amalloy	&(let [m {:a {:b 2 :c 3}}] (update-in m [:a] dissoc :c))
15:41	lazybot	⇒ {:a {:b 2}}
15:41	jkdufair	i'm having a problem with clojure-jack-in. "couldn't find project.clj". I'm in a dired buffer with a project.clj. Also lein swank seems to start up just fine
15:41	cwardell	ok thanks muhoo
15:41	edw	jkdufair: Did you M-x cd to the dir?
15:42	amalloy	jondot2: you mean where to put the parens? that's more or less a solved problem
15:42	jkdufair	lemme try that
15:42	edw	Or M-x shell and cd there.
15:42	jondot2	i'm trying to mimick what other people do, so far i'm learning from nathanmarz' storm. he likes to leave the closing brace in case of let vertical to the indent.
15:42	jondot2	amalloy, yes
15:43	jondot2	my code looks like a wacky closing paren case.
15:43	amalloy	mostly the answer is "let emacs do all the indenting; don't put trailing parens on their own line"
15:43	jondot2	in my case - i'm using vim
15:43	edw	"Now you have two problems."
15:43	jondot2	haha
15:43	jeremyheiler1	jondot2: Are you using vimclojure?
15:43	jkdufair	edw: alas, neither seems to have helped
15:43	jondot2	yes its starting to come to me that when i did scheme i never worried about this (was using emacs at the time). yes, vimclojure
15:44	jkdufair	any other ideas?
15:44	amalloy	my understanding is there are paredit-like features for vim that make this not-too-onerous
15:44	TimMc	amalloy: The one thing tha makes me want trailing parens on their own line is the cleanliness of the resulting diffs. :-P
15:44	amalloy	ugh i know
15:44	jeremyheiler1	with you on that one TimMc... and just general code refactoring
15:44	amalloy	how does refactoring enter the discussion at all?
15:45	jondot2	TimMc, i thought it is typically done for do like forms, where it is probably that people can add statements (side effects) vertically.
15:45	Raynes	There is nothing in the world that would ever make me want to put closing parens on their own line.
15:45	jeremyheiler1	amalloy: eh, yank and put by lines (same reason as for diff)
15:45	amalloy	solution: never do that? use paredit to kill/yank balanced forms
15:46	amalloy	or one of vim's balanced-pair equivalents
15:46	jondot2	look here: https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/blob/master/src/clj/backtype/storm/cluster.clj
15:47	jondot2	nathan typically leaves a trailing paren so that it will be convenient to add lines (without finding an splicing the correct paren)
15:47	amalloy	that style is not at all common. nathan can do what he wants, i guess, but most newbies doing that get taken to task
15:47	jkdufair	i also see that my emacs has no slime whatsoever. does that matter?
15:47	jkdufair	i just installed clojure-mode from marmalade and swank-clojure plugin for lein
15:47	jkdufair	i'm on cygwin
15:48	jkdufair	other pc with cygwin is ok as is my mac. looking thru buffers for more detail but nothing yet
15:48	edw	TimMc: wouldn't it be nice if we had a symbolic, not lexical, 'diff'?
15:48	amalloy	jkdufair: clojure-mode bundles its own version of slime these days
15:48	amalloy	so i don't think you need it, assuming you use clojure-jack-in
15:49	ordnungswidrig	edw: there is https://github.com/brentonashworth/clj-diff
15:49	jkdufair	ok that's what i thought. any idea where else to look?
15:50	amalloy	huh? look for what?
15:50	jondot2	is there any historical reason as to why parens should never be left on their own line?
15:51	Raynes	My reason is simple: it is hideous.
15:52	amalloy	it's a line of vertical space wasted for no reason, and encourages bad habits like trying to visually match opening and closing parens
15:52	jondot2	to my fresh (read: newbie) eyes it looks practical and less error prone
15:52	jkdufair	ok, strangely when i run emacs -nw, i get the following: no such file or directory, /cygdrive/e/dev/clojurecraft/c:/users/jase/.emacs.d/swank/slime-dbd975fa.el
15:52	jkdufair	wtf?
15:52	jkdufair	this is as a result of clojure-jack-in
15:53	mrb_bk	technomancy: that worked a treat, thank you!
15:53	TimMc	edw: Absolutely, I'd love structural diff.
15:53	brehaut	jondot2: your text editor should support paren management for you. you shouldnt be counting them yourself.
15:54	jondot2	i see.
15:54	brehaut	jondot2: once you learn the basics of structural editing (aka paredit) you dont want to go back to editing lisp as text
15:54	jondot2	i'll give it a try. is paredit a vim specific thing?
15:55	emezeske	jondot2: paredit is an emacs thing, but somebody created a vim plugin that does pretty much the same thing
15:57	brehaut	theres also support for it in CCW, the eclipse clojure support stuff
15:57	jondot2	ah. i see.
16:04	jondot2	how bad is it if i'm naming things with snake_case (and not hypen-case)?
16:04	jondot2	specifically, let variables
16:04	brehaut	its pretty bad
16:04	amalloy	jondot2: someone will murder you in your sleep
16:04	jondot2	ah damn.
16:04	brehaut	best case: you're code will be treated like a leper
16:05	jondot2	well, is that true for hash keys as well?
16:05	pjstadig	jondot2: it's so ugly...why?
16:05	amalloy	yes, unless you're getting those hashes from some other language
16:05	TimMc	also, extra shift key
16:05	jondot2	yea.. i'm replacing..
16:05	pjstadig	TimMc: yes, it's very annoying to type
16:05	amalloy	(eg, when you convert a java object to a hash and back, it's okay to use camelCase keys)
16:06	TimMc	so is Java
16:06	TimMc	BAZINGA
16:06	pjstadig	i think you mean clabango
16:06	brehaut	thanks sheldon
16:06	pjstadig	~suddenly
16:06	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
16:06	pjstadig	~suddenly
16:06	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
16:06	ordnungswidrig	jkdufair: I got a similiar glitch with emacs and clojure-jack-in on windows. I do not use cygwin but emacs and leiningen jack-in disagree on my home directory.
16:06	amalloy	one thing that lisp has going for it is that there's actually a global style that people mostly agree on
16:07	ordnungswidrig	thus having c:/documents and settings/USER/.emacs as well as c:/documents and settings/USER/Local Settings/.emacs
16:07	amalloy	compared to the C-like languages, where every language has five prevalent styles, each with minor variations, that people fight over within the same team
16:07	hiredman	I wrote this sweet function at work the other day called mirror, that given an object return an object that implemented ILookup and would get the values of all fields (even private ones) from the original object
16:07	amalloy	oh god, reflection pun?
16:08	brehaut	hiredman: how dies that differ from bean?
16:08	hiredman	so then you could (let [{x :somePrivateField} (mirror something)] ...)
16:08	brehaut	jondot2: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
16:08	hiredman	brehaut: as far as I know bean doesn't access private fields, does it?
16:08	brehaut	hiredman: oh right. of course
16:08	jondot2	brehaut, thanks i was actually looking for that, my memory fails me.
16:08	pjstadig	hiredman: should have been called refraction instead
16:09	amalloy	magic-mirror
16:09	hiredman	and actually I needed a bunch of private fields
16:10	hiredman	(let [{x :somePrivateField y :someOther z :andAnother} (mirror something)] ...)
16:14	TimMc	amalloy: No, just a joke about how terrible Java's so-called type system is.
16:14	amalloy	TimMc: i was referring to hiredman's name "mirror"
16:15	TimMc	ah
16:23	technomancy	samaaron: the plan is to release a preview of lein2 for ClojureWest
16:23	technomancy	although it's starting to look like it might be ready earlier
16:24	samaaron	technomancy: perfect - my plan was to not spend the time switching until lein2 was out
16:24	technomancy	samaaron: the main things blocking the preview is integration of the new repl and native-deps.
16:24	samaaron	so I only had to update all the Overtone docs once :-)
16:24	technomancy	once Raynes lands native-deps you might be ready to roll
16:25	samaaron	technomancy: great - I can also test the native-deps stuff with my monome lib
16:25	technomancy	right now all that stuff is commented out; Raynes volunteered to bring it back in line with 2.0 since I threatened to release the preview without it. =)
16:27	technomancy	we're also missing shell-wrappers, javac, and trampoline; those won't land till after the preview.
16:30	samaaron	technomancy: what's the difference between compile and javac?
16:31	technomancy	samaaron: compile does Clojure AOT
16:31	TimMc	compile does AOT compilation on Clojure, right?
16:31	technomancy	in 1.x it implicitly called javac, in 2.x it's a bit different
16:31	samaaron	ah ok :-)
16:32	technomancy	javac can probably be addressed by just updating the plugin; it doesn't necessarily need to be fixed in lein itself
16:33	samaaron	technomancy: does Leiningen's moustaches improve in 2.0?
16:33	samaaron	so/does/do/
16:33	amalloy	technomancy: did lein ever solve the problem of co-dependency between java and clojure? eg, if you have some java code that depends on a clojure deftype you need to AOT-compile the deftype, then compile java, then do whatever else is left
16:34	technomancy	samaaron: actually the image on the new stickers are done from scratch since the old ones weren't high-res; I would say that they have a more regal shape to the nose.
16:34	technomancy	moustache remains about the same though. =)
16:34	samaaron	:-)
16:34	samaaron	it would be fun to see it grow as the tool matures ;-)
16:35	technomancy	amalloy: I told nathanmarz to go ahead implement that in a plugin, but he never did =)
16:36	samaaron	technomancy: so what was it about the new stickers that you weren't quite happy with?
16:36	technomancy	I don't imagine it would be too tricky to just accept sequential :source-path/:java-source-path alterations
16:37	technomancy	samaaron: they have a transparent background
16:37	samaaron	didn't you expect that?
16:37	technomancy	looks fine on a white or metal laptop; not so hot on a black one
16:38	samaaron	ah, so Leiningen fades into the black background
16:38	technomancy	I think I just didn't read through the printing order form or something
16:38	samaaron	did you want a white background?
16:39	technomancy	yeah, that's what the first run had
16:39	technomancy	and also what successive runs will probably have
16:39	technomancy	since I personally have a black laptop =)
16:39	samaaron	i definitely need to get my mitts on a few transparent ones then ;-)
16:39	samaaron	limited edition!
16:39	jsabeaudry	Is it possible for a macro to expand to 2 sexps instead of 1?
16:40	technomancy	hehe
16:40	ordnungswidrig	jsabeaudry: wrap it in progn
16:40	amalloy	jsabeaudry: no
16:40	technomancy	it'll look fine on black if you put the sticker on a white mailing label or something
16:41	jsabeaudry	ordnungswidrig, Doesn't really apply here, and you probably mean in do (i think prog is in common lisp
16:41	jsabeaudry	amalloy, alrighty, too bad thanks for the info
16:41	amalloy	i'm sure there's a simple way to do what you want to do, though
16:42	amalloy	(ie, you're attempting to solve an impossible subproblem isntead of a tractable real-problem)
16:43	ordnungswidrig	jsabeaudry: yes, it was common lisp.
16:45	jsabeaudry	amalloy, Yes, well two short macros are not much long to write than one short macro I guess :)
16:45	jsabeaudry	amalloy, I'm not really providing abstraction I'm DRYing
16:48	ordnungswidrig	is there a smart way to check a reader for more to come?
16:49	ordnungswidrig	is it safe for a pushbackreader to read and unread a single byte for this?
16:54	technomancy	anyone know of a dependency of :type "pom" I could test against for a Leiningen bug?
16:58	TimMc	technomancy: That was discussed last week, I think. Let me check my logs.
17:01	Raynes	yaml.load(open(os.path.expanduser('~/.refh.yml')).read())['token']
17:01	Raynes	Clojure has too many parentheses.
17:02	gtrak	wtf is that ruby?
17:02	Raynes	No. Python.
17:02	gtrak	ha, I actually know python
17:02	TimMc	technomancy: [org.kohsuke/pom "2" :type "pom"] [javax.media/jai_core "1.1.3" :type "pom"] I think
17:02	technomancy	TimMc: thanks!
17:02	TimMc	Don't take my word for it.
17:05	technomancy	apparently eclipse freaks out if you have pom files in lib =(
17:05	mabes	does 1.3 world have something like re-gsub (http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.str-utils/re-gsub) ?
17:06	amalloy	&(doc clojure.string/replace)
17:07	amalloy	(there wasn't really any reason to use re-gsub in 1.2 either; it's a holdover from 1.1 i think)
17:08	diginet	so, I've heard clojure is the most "pure" lisp
17:08	diginet	or
17:09	diginet	the most purely functional
17:09	TimMc	Who told you that?
17:09	diginet	(LispKit, and other notwithstanding)
17:09	diginet	people in #lisp
17:09	mabes	amalloy: thanks
17:09	TimMc	diginet: Well, it does have that focus on immutability, so that's a +
17:09	Raynes	&(doc clojure.string/replace)
17:09	lazybot	⇒ "([s match replacement]); Replaces all instance of match with replacement in s. match/replacement can be: string / string char / char pattern / (string or function of match). See also replace-first."
17:10	technomancy	so... leiningen will place directories in lib/ on the classpath right now, sort of by accident
17:10	diginet	so, is it possible to write clojure code without side effects?
17:10	technomancy	would it be horrible to be stricter and only use files in lib/? if you need dirs on the classpath you should use :extra-classpath-dirs anyway
17:11	TimMc	diginet: Sure. (+ 2 2) is probably simpler than you wanted, though.
17:11	diginet	err, what I mean is write anything non-trivial without side effects
17:11	TimMc	If you start asking about I/O monads I'll have to refer you to a Haskeller.
17:12	diginet	no I know, I tried Haskell, but I found the syntax not to likable
17:12	diginet	*too
17:12	technomancy	diginet: it's customary and idiomatic to avoid side-effects in as much code as possible, but the compiler will not catch you if you accidentally sneak one in.
17:13	TimMc	Anything interesting involves side effects, or is a lib for something that does. The designers of Clojure put a lot of work into increasing the safety and reasonableness of how those side effects are coordinated.
17:13	diginet	well, that sounds what I'm looking fo
17:13	diginet	t
17:13	diginet	*for
17:13	diginet	obviously, at the end of the day, without side effects we just have a hot CPU, but minimizing them is preferable IMO
17:14	mintsoup	you can write code like that in any language though
17:14	TimMc	mintsoup: I dunno, is it even possible in Java?
17:14	diginet	sure you /could/
17:14	diginet	I wouldn't want to necesarily
17:15	TimMc	I have definitely written Cons.java once or twice. It was natural for the task, but did not fit the language one bit.
17:20	tjgillies	just started seriously looking at clojure the other day. Now I think its the best language I've ever seen
17:21	tjgillies	how are "lines of code" counted in lisps? or do you just say how many s-exp there are?
17:21	TimMc	Source lines. shrug
17:22	TimMc	I'd like to see a comparison of that with source forms, but I assume it's proportional.
17:22	technomancy	gaming LOC can be done in any language
17:22	tjgillies	whats a source line?
17:23	TimMc	LIne with sourc eon it.
17:23	technomancy	I guess the main problem with counting source lines in Clojure is that all the existing tools penalize you for docstrings.
17:23	TimMc	Not blank or only containing a comment.
17:23	TimMc	technomancy: penalize?
17:23	tjgillies	TimMc: thnx
17:26	amalloy	TimMc: they count as source lines. technomancy is minimizing, not maximizing
17:26	Somelauw	I think clojure is actually nice to read. When I see some common lisp, I really need to think for a while what it is saying.
17:26	TimMc	ah
17:26	technomancy	I'm assuming they know how to skip docstrings in CL/Scheme
17:27	technomancy	sloccount and friends
17:27	TimMc	amalloy: As opposed to the GitHub situation.
17:31	lucian	same happens in othe rlanguages with docstrings
17:32	lucian	i tend to find that loc in a sanely-written program is directly proportional to the effort to read it
18:17	dgrnbrg	How does slingshot interact with map's laziness? If I map a function that throw+s an object over a collection, is there a good way to ensure I can catch the error at the site that I declare write the map short of using doall?
18:20	technomancy	dgrnbrg: slingshot doesn't really factor into it; any exception will be thrown when the seq is realized, not when it's created
18:20	technomancy	you either need to perform the catch inside the function you're mapping or force it to be realized with a doall inside the appropriate try/catch
18:21	dgrnbrg	Thanks, that's what I thought would be the case
18:21	dgrnbrg	I just wasn't sure if slingshot had other features to assist
19:11	mabes	is there a with-out-writer macro alternative in clojure 1.3?
19:12	amalloy	&(doc with-out-str)
19:12	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([& body]); Evaluates exprs in a context in which out is bound to a fresh StringWriter. Returns the string created by any nested printing calls."
19:12	amalloy	or did you just want (binding [out (writer f)] ...)?
19:15	mabes	(binding [out (writer f)] ...)
19:15	mabes	well, and it uses with-open to make sure the writer is closed
19:18	phil___	is there a way to let a defrecord implement IAssociative in clojure or is this cljs only?
19:21	dnolen	phil___: not necessary, Java has interface inheritance, defrecord implement IPersistentMap which extends Associative
19:23	phil___	dnolen: so should i just implement clojure.lang.Associative or must I do it for all classes like PersistentMap/Vector/Set etc?
19:23	unlink	What is the Ring equivalent to SCRIPT_NAME/PATH_INFO?
19:23	dnolen	phil___: you can't implement it, it's been implemented for you.
19:23	TimMc	phil___: Aren't records already associative?
19:25	phil___	dnolen, TimMc: oh yes, indeed - ok, is there a way to overload assoc for a specific... idk entity (whatever that might be)?
19:26	phil___	i thought defrecords might be a good fit, but they are already maps
19:26	dnolen	phil___: you cannot change assoc for records
19:27	phil___	so either change it globally or dont change it at all?
19:27	TimMc	phil___: What's the bigger picture?
19:29	phil___	TimMc: i want to be able to store the "mutation history" of an object, i.e. if i do (def a (assoc b :key 5)) then a would be {:actions [[:assoc :key 5]] :entity b}
19:31	TimMc	Hmm, I think storing it inside the object is a bad idea.
19:31	TimMc	I've implemented an undo/redo feature in a GUI program using two stacks of state, stored in refs.
19:32	TimMc	If that's what you're up to, I can get you a GitHub link to that.
19:34	_phil	TimMc: yes id like to take a look! what im after is having purely functional event handlers - i.e. if a handler is called it receives some old state, doest something to it in terms of assoc etc and returns a new state, which is then "run" by behind the scenes
19:35	_phil	-by
19:35	TimMc	Yeah, store everything in a state map in a ref, then swap it in a transaction.
19:36	_phil	yea, thats what id do, but id also like to know what the event handler changed... and short of diffing the old and the new state storing the "assoc history" is the only thing i can think of right now
19:37	TimMc	You can assoc a key-value pair indicating what produced the new state.
19:38	TimMc	I'm a little reluctant to show you this code, since it was written when I was just learning Clojure, so it contains some fairly non-idiomatic code, like overuse of records instead of maps, and var naming...
19:38	_phil	yes, but then the event handlers would need to use some custom assoc function and if they used the regular one then the changed state wouldnt be detected
19:38	TimMc	https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/blob/master/src/timmcHW3/core.clj
19:39	_phil	TimMc: doesnt matter, im after the bigger picture right now, not code style :)
19:39	_phil	thx!
19:39	pandeiro	_phil: use an atom watcher?
19:39	TimMc	I should clean that code up some day.
19:40	TimMc	pandeiro: That's a thought. Might need some finagling.
19:40	_phil	pandeiro: but then every bit of data would need to be wrapped in an atom :/
19:40	TimMc	_phil: or a ref or var
19:40	TimMc	They all support watchers.
19:40	pandeiro	_phil: or just have one mega-state-atom?
19:41	TimMc	pandeiro: That's the ticket.
19:41	_phil	TimMc: yea some mutable state thingie
19:41	aphyr	rea
19:41	pandeiro	i just implemented undo/redo with ClojureScript (right before reading that the Google Closure Editor already has an undo/rego plugin)
19:41	_phil	pandeiro: but the problem is that i dont wanna have (swaps! ...) in the event handler because that would effectively make them impure
19:42	_phil	i wanna have smth like event-handler :: Input -> Output and everything is pure inside
19:43	_phil	then the "main loop" or whatever you wanna call it "runs" the changes made in the event handlers and (swaps!) them into the mega-atom
19:56	alexyk	anything shorter than: (Integer/parseInt "12") ?
19:56	amalloy	12
19:57	amalloy	~rimshot
19:57	clojurebot	Badum, tish
19:59	seanm	read-string maybe?
20:00	seanm	though that's likely overkill
20:00	technomancy	,(Integer. "12")
20:00	clojurebot	12
20:00	alexyk	seriously, no str2int in std lib?
20:02	jeremyheiler	all it would do is what was already mentioned
20:03	emezeske	jeremyheiler: and possibly be portable across e.g. Clojure, ClojureScript, and whatever the CLR one is called
20:03	technomancy	doesn't JS's integer constructor expect a string?
20:04	technomancy	oh wait... JS doesn't have integers
20:04	emezeske	rofl
20:04	seanm	womp womp
20:04	emezeske	well, there's that...
20:05	jeremyheiler	emezeske: undestandable. not sure how much of a priority that is for Core, though.
20:05	emezeske	jeremyheiler: yeah
20:07	alexyk	why not (int "12")?
20:08	TimMc	&(doc int)
20:08	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Coerce to int"
20:08	TimMc	'int is intended for casting and coercion of other numerics
20:09	jeremyheiler	dunno.. https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L1068
20:11	jeremyheiler	ah (missed what TimMc said)
20:12	alexyk	so coerce doesn't say "numeric"
20:12	seanm	,(int "12)
20:12	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
20:12	seanm	,(int "12")
20:12	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Character>
20:12	TimMc	Character is apparently the last thing it tries.
20:12	alexyk	true, the question is that this semantics may be too limiting
20:13	TimMc	You could (defn int-by-hook-or-by-crook ...)
20:14	jeremyheiler	heh, when doesn't an open source project need better/clearer docs
20:17	alexyk	where do I get uniq now from?
20:18	alexyk	for sort \| uniq kind of thing
20:18	alexyk	or via a set?
20:18	technomancy	yeah, just call set on your collection
20:19	hiredman	(doc distinct)
20:19	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the elements of coll with duplicates removed"
20:19	technomancy	or sorted-set I guess
20:19	TimMc	_phil: Event handlers are impure, they're responding to events!
20:20	unlink	Does anyone deploy Ring applications under a context root? Or is it assumed that Ring has the whole web server to itself?
20:20	_phil	TimMc: its possible the "outside world" is impure, but why should event handlers be impure by definition?
20:21	TimMc	Their job is to mutate something.
20:21	_phil	TimMc: their job is to return a new state derived from an old state... this doesnt necessarily imply mutation
20:21	TimMc	I mean, if you turn the universe inside out, sure, you can make them pure.
20:23	_phil	TimMc: well, idk, but if i already ditch java for clojure, dont see why i should be programming like i did in java with the additional benefit of first class functions and macros
20:23	_phil	but still with mutable state all around the place
20:23	TimMc	If you can make them transformers instead of mutators, then go for it -- but I wouldn't try to restructure too much of the rest of the program to accomodate that.
20:24	TimMc	At some point you have to frob a ref.
20:25	_phil	TimMc: its a new project so i can architect it any way i want... thats why right now im trying to get as many points of view as possible
20:25	TimMc	Ah, OK.
20:26	_phil	TimMc: and yes, sure, at some point you gotta mutate some ref / atom / etc, but this is gonna be at one place only and well tested
20:26	_phil	and the rest of the program consists of pure functions that can be easily composed and tested
20:26	TimMc	True, the more you can localize your side effects, the better.
20:26	devn	DCI in Clojure... Anyone know anything about that?
20:27	TimMc	DCI?
20:27	TimMc	Digital Chicken Interleaving?
20:27	jeremyheiler	Dependency Companion Indicators?
20:28	alex001	data, context, interraction ?
20:28	_phil	TimMc: do you see any obvious disadvantages to any of this? or would you rather say clojure's philosophy is "minimize mutation but dont try too hard" and i should do it the old fashioned way?
20:29	jeremyheiler	unlink: im not sure, but doing that has always been a pain unless you programatically create URLs, or hard code them :-/
20:30	jeremyheiler	unlink: I suppose you can have somethign re-write them shrug
20:32	jeremyheiler	devn: Seriously, what is DCI?
20:33	TimMc	_phil: It's not as discouraged as it is in some languages -- because the STM is so awesome.
20:34	TimMc	But the general philosophy is to avoid mutation when practical.
20:35	jeremyheiler	I hate articles that claim to talk about something, and after the first two paragraphs don't really say what it is they really are talking about (trying to figure out what DCI is...)
20:35	technomancy	you mean like every article on dependency injection out there?
20:36	technomancy	or OSGi?
20:37	jeremyheiler	yes, exactly. (except for martin fowlers article on dependency injection.)
20:38	_phil	is implementing clojure.lang.Associative (i.e. overwrting assoc) in a deftype a bad idea?
20:38	brehaut	is your type associative?
20:39	_phil	brehaut: as much as any random type is associative, i.e. it is a container that could hold any type, also associative types
20:43	unlink	jeremyheiler: It's trivial for typical servlets, however.
20:45	brehaut	unlink: i presume you are talking about deploying a ring app via the ring servlet adapter
20:45	unlink	brehaut: yes. The line that troubles me is: :uri (.getRequestURI request)
20:45	brehaut	unlink: why?
20:45	brehaut	unlink: because it gets an absolute url?
20:45	brehaut	err uri
20:46	unlink	brehaut: Servlet applications should have no knowledge what context root they are deployed under.
20:51	unlink	brehaut: I see that this was discussed (inconclusively) on the ring-clojure google group. http://bit.ly/AiCYIt
21:09	brehaut	unlink: both compojure and moustache use :path-info (ie, context aware :uri) where available. it seems the talked about wrap-context middleware hasnt made it into ring though
21:09	brehaut	(both compojure and moustache allowed for nested handlers which is the same usecase as context roots for servlets)
21:12	brehaut	unlink: you should be able to use :servlet-context to generate :path-info in a middleware as needed
21:13	aaelony	I have a macbook pro that absolutely refuses to give a repl for Clojure 1.3.0. It accepts Clojure 1.2.1 though just fine. It drives me crazy though and would love to get this fixed. Any ideas? http://pastie.org/3286336
21:16	brehaut	aaelony: what version of lein are you running?
21:16	aaelony	Leiningen 1.6.2 on Java 1.6.0_29 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
21:17	brehaut	lion ?
21:17	aaelony	not Lion, 10.6.8
21:17	aaelony	somewhere there must be something 1.2.1 that conflicts
21:18	aaelony	i have no clue as to where
21:18	brehaut	i cant really help much, but i have the same lein and jvm on lion and im not having trouble, but i cant easily go test on snowleopard sorry
21:20	aaelony	brehaut: well thanks for trying at least.
21:20	aaelony	I have another machine that doesn't have this problem as well. I know there is something that got funky on this machine but looking to correct that somehow
21:26	muhoo	aaelony: try a different jvm?
21:27	aaelony	muhoo: how can I try that?
21:28	muhoo	uninstall the one you have, and install a different one
21:28	aaelony	ok, will look into that
21:28	muhoo	http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html
21:28	aaelony	thanks
21:28	yazirian	on OS X you can check the 'Java Preferences' control panel (spotlight it)
21:28	yazirian	and choose between whichever jvms you have
21:29	yazirian	i have 3 i think, a 7 and 2 different 6's
21:29	muhoo	my guess is hotspot is optimizing away something that clojure needs
21:30	apwalk	fwiw: i am using those exact versions of lein, jvm, and clojure.
21:30	aaelony	ok
21:30	yazirian	i have used those together as well on both OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7
21:31	yazirian	what happens if you try to run the repl directly? i.e. java -cp /path/to/clojure-1.3.jar etc etc
21:31	aaelony	In the General tab of 'Java Preferences' I see Java SE 6, both 64-bit and 32-bit are checked
21:34	aaelony	yazirian: what other options do i need to include to try running the repl directly? I have java -cp lib/clojure-1.3.jar
21:35	aaelony	I don't have much of a java background
21:35	yazirian	java -cp lib/clojure-1.3.jar clojure.main
21:35	aaelony	java -cp lib/clojure-1.3.jar clojure.main
21:35	aaelony	Clojure 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
21:35	aaelony	user=>
21:36	aaelony	weird
21:36	yazirian	yeah that is clearly wrong heh
21:36	aaelony	I wonder where it is coming from
21:38	aaelony	running a find on that ...
21:39	xeqi	aaelony: try running `echo $CLASSPATH`
21:40	aaelony	$CLASSPATH is not set
21:40	xeqi	thats good
21:41	yazirian	even the name clojure-1.3.jar is wrong, it should be clojure-1.3.0.jar
21:42	aaelony	find found 2 files named clojure-1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar
21:43	yazirian	where?
21:43	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
21:43	aaelony	yazirian: that is my typo
21:43	aaelony	java -cp lib/clojure-1.3.0.jar clojure.main still gives the 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
21:43	yazirian	where are the weird 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT files located?
21:44	aaelony	yazirian: ~/clojure/clojure-1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar and ~/tmp/clojure/clojure-1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar I'm perfectly willing to rm them both
21:44	ltmitch49	?
21:47	yazirian	was wondering if one got stuck into the JAVA_HOME area someplace
21:49	yazirian	like how rt.jar doesn't need to be in CLASSPATH to be found
21:49	tjgillies	in clojure speak does synchronous == blocking?
21:49	aaelony	in 'Java Preferences' in the Network tab there is a cache. I wonder if there is something there?
21:49	aaelony	deleting the cache files to see if that helps
21:56	aaelony	when I do "java -cp lib/clojure-1.3.0.jar clojure.main" where does the resulting answer message "Clojure 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT" come from ?
21:59	jeremyheiler	aaelony: Looks like it comes from the pom.xml
21:59	aaelony	looking for a pom.xml
22:00	jeremyheiler	Which gets torn apart into the clojure-version var
22:00	jeremyheiler	in core.clj
22:00	aaelony	]: java -cp lib/clojure-1.3.0.jar clojure.main
22:00	aaelony	Clojure 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
22:00	aaelony	user=> clojure-version
22:00	aaelony	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
22:00	jeremyheiler	yes.
22:00	jeremyheiler	here: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/pom.xml#L8
22:02	jeremyheiler	actually.... it comes from a version.properties file as well
22:02	jeremyheiler	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6199
22:02	xeqi	aaelony: what happens if you run `java clojure.main`
22:03	aaelony	if I do "lein pom" it generates a pom.xml file, but without reference to 1.2.0. Otherwise there is no pom.xml file in my dir
22:03	aaelony	: java clojure.main
22:03	aaelony	Clojure 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
22:03	jeremyheiler	Did you download the source for clojure?
22:03	aaelony	user=>
22:03	aaelony	I might have, perhaps ages ago. If I did, how would I clean it out?
22:04	jeremyheiler	clone it from github
22:04	jeremyheiler	https://github.com/clojure/clojure
22:04	aaelony	I guess it can't make it worse... ;)
22:05	aaelony	cloning now
22:05	jeremyheiler	What is your motive behind knowing were the version string comes from?
22:05	aaelony	http://pastie.org/3286336
22:07	xeqi	aaelony: `ls /System/Library/Java/Extensions`
22:07	xeqi	I think thats the mac directory
22:07	aaelony	ls /System/Library/Java/Extensions/
22:07	aaelony	AppleScriptEngine.jar j3daudio.jar jai_core.jar libJ3DUtils.jnilib* mlibwrapper_jai.jar
22:07	aaelony	MRJToolkit.jar j3dcore.jar libAppleScriptEngine.jnilib* libQTJNative.jnilib* vecmath.jar
22:07	aaelony	QTJava.zip j3dutils.jar libJ3D.jnilib* libShark.jnilib*
22:07	aaelony	dns_sd.jar jai_codec.jar libJ3DAudio.jnilib* libmlib_jai.jnilib*
22:08	xeqi	k, not in there, and you mentioned classpath was not set
22:08	xeqi	theres gotta be a 1.2.0-master jar somewhere for the `java clojure.main` to have made a repl
22:08	aaelony	easier to peruse here: http://pastie.org/3286519
22:09	aaelony	yes, $CLASSPATH is empty
22:12	aaelony	xeqi: I agree, but where the devil is it?
22:13	aaelony	running this: sudo find / -name "1.2.0-master"
22:13	xeqi	that was my next suggestion
22:13	tjgillies	state mutation would be a cool band name
22:15	aaelony	found it
22:16	aaelony	http://pastie.org/3286544
22:17	aaelony	I guess I can just rm that
22:17	xeqi	yeah
22:18	yazirian	the case of the haunted extensions dir
22:18	aaelony	ok, removed that. Now eerily I get: ]: java clojure.main
22:18	aaelony	Clojure
22:18	aaelony	user=>
22:18	muhoo	good to know.
22:18	tjgillies	is there a way to see a history of state for a structure?
22:19	muhoo	i remember reading that variables keep a history of the last 5 states, like bash history, but i don't remember reading how you can actually LOOK at those
22:19	muhoo	or maybe i misread it entirely.
22:20	brehaut	muhoo: what do you mean by variables? i think most clojure programmers would think you mean on of lexical variables defined by lets and params etc, or perhaps Vars
22:20	aaelony	interestingly, removing the clojure-1.2.0-master broke leiningen! Lein version even bombs now
22:21	aaelony	doing lein upgrade
22:21	muhoo	brehaut: then i misremembered it with incorrect terms as well :-)
22:22	brehaut	muhoo: do you mean an STM Ref ?
22:22	muhoo	probably, an agent or ref perhaps
22:25	brehaut	muhoo: i suspect you are confusing some of the ref machinary (but i dont know for sure). Agents dont appear to have any history storying mechanism
22:26	brehaut	muhoo: refs have a history, but i dont know if its intended for use outside the transactional machinary
22:26	muhoo	i should wait until i finish this joy of clojure book then. most of my knowlege so far of clojure is like free-associational dream-logic fragments, culled from reading language refs, various tutorials, videos, and my own experimentation.
22:26	muhoo	it's like a soup of terms and concepts. but the book is organized, so i'm starting to get some structure now.
22:26	brehaut	muhoo: sounds a lot like mine then ;)
22:27	muhoo	so much of the mental pictue i have of clojure right now is "not even wrong"
22:29	muhoo	i read sentences like this 8 times and still have NFI what they mean: "Destructuring allows us to positionally bind locals based on an expected form for a composite data structure."
22:29	muhoo	totally!
22:29	muhoo	but after i finish this chapter, i'd damn well better understand that sentence :-)
22:30	xeqi	aaelony: any luck?
22:30	brehaut	muhoo: a "composite data structure" is something like a list, vector map etc ie its made up of other smaller parts (in contrast with scalars like numbers or characters)
22:31	muhoo	brehaut: that helps, thanks
22:31	brehaut	muhoo: "positionally bind locals" means that the local variables are bound to the items in the data structure based on their position in the destructuring expression
22:31	aaelony	removing the 1.2.0 jar broke leiningen. Now re-installing lein.
22:31	brehaut	muhoo: eg, if you have a vector [:first :second :third] then
22:31	aaelony	java clojure.main yields "Clojure" and gives me a repl too
22:32	brehaut	you can bind local variables a b and c with let like (let [[a b c] [:first :second :third]] …)
22:32	aaelony	clojure-version is unbound
22:33	JanxSpirit	'
22:34	xeqi	heh, can you (+ 1 2)?
22:34	aaelony	hmmm... lein is quite unhappy now.
22:34	muhoo	aaelony: lein requires clojure 1.2 iirc
22:34	aaelony	haha, looks like it!!
22:35	muhoo	lein does some magic i don't understand to run in its OWN clojure, 1.2, separate from whtaever clojure you may be actually running (1.3, git HEAD, whatever)
22:35	muhoo	this is done, IIRC, to keep the build environment separate from the run environment
22:36	aaelony	lein is now missing the 1.2.0 jar it needs and I think that that must have been the earlier problem as well... that something needed a missing jar and was thus unhappy.
22:36	muhoo	aaelony: CLOJURE_JAR="$HOME/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/clojure-1.2.1.jar"
22:37	muhoo	(clojure, i'm still lost in the woods, but bash, i understand :-)
22:37	aaelony	muhoo: indeed... Now the question is how to start over fresh...
22:38	muhoo	aaelony: i'm kind of brutal with this stuff, i'd blow away ~/.m2, blow away all clojure, start over
22:38	xeqi	aaelony: was there anything else in the "/Library/Java/Extensions/" directory?
22:38	muhoo	blow away ~/.lein too
22:38	aaelony	oh, there is no ~/.m2. I'm trying to get it back, but https://raw.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/stable/bin/lein throws an exception now
22:39	muhoo	aaelony: what's in ~/.lein ?
22:39	yazirian	just clear out ~/.lein and let it re-bootstrap itself?
22:39	aaelony	just nuked ~/.lein
22:39	muhoo	aaelony: yazirian <--- what he said
22:39	aaelony	that seemed to help
22:40	aaelony	lein tries to re-install and now eventually throws an exception
22:41	aaelony	Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate leiningen/core__init.class or leiningen/core.clj on classpath:
22:41	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:41	aaelony	perhaps I'll move this to the leiningen area then...
22:43	muhoo	brehaut: thanks, that was the stuff that i needed to unpack. makes sense now.
22:45	brehaut	muhoo: no problem
22:54	nuclearsandwich	technomancy: I'm trying to run a standalone swank-clojure server (for Slimv) and I've noticed that ~/.lein/bin/swank-clojure has `/home/phil` hard coded in it.
22:54	nuclearsandwich	technomancy: where's the best place for me to follow up with it/find and submit a fix?
23:00	tjgillies	anyone know how i can fix this?:
23:00	tjgillies	/Users/tyler/penumbra> lein native-deps
23:00	tjgillies	That's not a task. Use "lein help" to list all tasks.
23:03	tjgillies	(i installed leiningen with mac homebrew if that matters)
23:03	brehaut	tjgillies: lein version
23:05	tjgillies	/Users/tyler/penumbra> lein version
23:05	tjgillies	Leiningen 1.6.2 on Java 1.6.0_29 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
23:09	brehaut	tjgillies: you have the apropriiate plugin installed?
23:12	tjgillies	brehaut: lein plugin install native-deps?
23:12	brehaut	tjgillies: no idea
23:13	tjgillies	ok
23:13	brehaut	but it lookjs like a good guess
23:34	devn	just showed overtone to someone who has been trying to do generative music in javascript
23:34	jeremyheiler	devn: did you have to fix their jaw?
23:34	devn	i have a feeling he's not going to go to work tomorrow
23:34	devn	lol
23:35	jeremyheiler	nice
23:35	devn	yeah, basically had to help him off the floor
23:36	devn	The whole repl-driven music generation thing was making him crazy, plus the concurrency story and timing stuff
23:36	devn	I've worked with other languages and generative music -- clojure is a dream in so many ways
23:38	devn	jeremyheiler: sorry for bailing earlier. figure out what DCI is?
23:39	jeremyheiler	eh, i found the wikipedia article and kind of gave up lol
23:43	nuclearsandwich	DCI? Drum Core International?