#clojure – 2012-01-20

2012-01-20

00:00	geoffeg_c	how can i add an element to a map while i create the map? { "color" "green", (if (contains shapes "square") ("is_square" "yes")) }
00:00	geoffeg_c	that doesn't seem to work
00:01	amalloy	you can't. just use assoc or conj outside the literal
00:01	geoffeg_c	ok
00:02	alex_baranosky	what is a good way to go from a LazySeq to a Cons ?
00:02	amalloy	alex_baranosky: that goal sounds highly suspicious
00:03	alex_baranosky	normally in Midje the forms of Midje macros are checked for syntax validity
00:03	amalloy	&(doc seq?)
00:03	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Return true if x implements ISeq"
00:03	alex_baranosky	if they are invalid you get a message saying the particular kind of invalid syntax, with the form printed out afterward
00:04	alex_baranosky	however, tabular forms are being mophd into LAzySeqs in the process of processing them, and so when there is a problem with the syntax it isn't printing out properly
00:04	alex_baranosky	mophd => morphed
00:05	amalloy	there, now we're at the real problem: how do you print a lazy-seq
00:05	amalloy	&((juxt str pr-str) (range 3))
00:05	lazybot	⇒ ["clojure.lang.LazySeq@7480" "(0 1 2)"]
00:05	alex_baranosky	and preferrably print a lazy seq without knowing whether it is a lazy seq or a Cons
00:06	amalloy	if you just want to print them, you can use pr(n) instead of print(ln)
00:06	alex_baranosky	ahhh so I should stop using str
00:07	alex_baranosky	thanks amalloy: that does the trick. Guess that hadn't bitten me yet
00:17	metajack	tavis`: I applied that patch to master of technomancy/swank-clojure and fired it up and got this: https://gist.github.com/1645485
00:18	metajack	oh wait. perhaps i needed to use uberjar.
00:27	metajack	tavis`: now that i've managed to install it correct, it works like a charm. thanks!
00:28	ibdknox	has anyone gotten this-as to work in CLJS
00:47	technomancy	tavis`: ISTR that being mentioned in the official slime manual (working over tramp)
00:47	technomancy	or at least working over SSH
00:48	technomancy	C-c C-r is a workaround though
00:53	tavis`	technomancy: I've got the filename translation working now, but the bytecompile step is leading to an error "can't load docstring file" f
00:53	tavis`
00:53	tavis`
00:53	metajack	is there something special i need to do to get the cursor pointer in cdt for what line the current stack fram is on? i see it in the video, but my emacs doesn't have it.
00:54	technomancy	tavis`: hmm; gotta take off; maybe start a thread on the swank mailing list?
01:54	tavis	if anyone is interested in playing with swank-clojure and clojure-jack-in over tramp, I've got it mostly working here: https://github.com/tavisrudd/clojure-mode and https://github.com/tavisrudd/swank-clojure
01:55	tavis	you just need to run it locally first to get the .el payloads loaded properly (haven't figured out how to bytecompile them over tramp yet)
01:55	Raynes	Tramp is the bane of my existence.
01:56	tavis	used to be mine, but after some wrangling I love it
01:56	Raynes	I was hoping that Vim's remote stuff would be better, but it's meh too. Mostly, I just want to be able to edit files with sudo remotely without logging in as root.
01:56	tavis	everything bar the initial loading of the slime el files works
01:57	tavis	have you tried fuse?
01:57	ibdknox	Raynes: you should mount remote volumes locally
01:57	tavis	hmm, you said as root, ignore that suggestion
01:57	ibdknox	which is what fuse does I think
01:58	Raynes	ibdknox: I haven't tried that. I'll check it out. I'd be good for me.
01:58	ibdknox	unless we're talking about two different fuses
01:58	tavis	same fuss
01:58	tavis	fuse
01:58	Raynes	ibdknox: Also, wtf, where did you come from?
01:58	ibdknox	the shadows
01:58	Raynes	Apparently.
01:58	ibdknox	I'm always here in spirit
01:59	tavis	you're from NZ?
02:00	tavis	hmm, nope confusing you with someone else
02:27	emezeske	anyone in here have moderator powers on the clojure google group?
02:28	emezeske	My posts are still being moderated, and it's taking like 24+ hours for each one to show up
02:28	emezeske	Makes it really hard to have a conversation :(
02:36	scottj	emezeske: have you subscribed to the group?
02:37	emezeske	scottj: yeah, I'm a member
03:29	Blkt	good morning everyone
04:08	ljos	Hi - is there a way to create locking between a Java thread and Clojure thread? I have some java code that runs and that clojure has to wait for. Then the java thread does some more work and the clojure thread has to wait again.
04:08	ljos	The second time is n waits.
04:09	brehaut	ljos: http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/locking
04:09	ljos	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/locking
04:10	brehaut	with all the caveats manual locking entails
04:11	ljos	damned this client. Didn't mean to paste again :P I don't usually sit on windows :P
04:14	ljos	Is there anywhere that explains how it works?
04:17	ljos	What happens if I wait for a lock that java holds and how do I make java hold the lock on the object that clojure waits for? I can't seem to wrap my head around how that works.
04:18	ljos	Or maybe what I am asking more is how is locking implemented?
04:26	ljos	O guess I will have to try for myself. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
04:31	raek	ljos: a (basic) synchronized/locked piece of code can only hold one thread at a time
04:31	raek	ljos: maybe you want a BlockingQueue
04:32	raek	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/BlockingQueue.html
04:32	raek	SynchronousQueue is one implementation which works as a rendezvous channel
04:33	raek	one thread tries to put something into the queue and one thread tries to pull something out
04:33	raek	and the calls will block until there is a thread "on the other end"
04:34	raek	if you don't need to transfer a value, you can also use Object.wait and Object.notify
04:35	raek	(def lock (Object.)) (defn wait [] (locking lock (.wait lock))) (defn notify [] (locking lock (.notify lock)))
04:36	raek	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monitor_(synchronization)-Java.png
04:37	raek	there is also .notifyAll, which works like .notify but it wakes upp all threads .wait'ing
04:40	raek	btw, when a thread calls .wait, it will go to sleep until another thread calls .notify. during this sleep it does not occupy the lock
04:44	wiseen	anyone knows the answer http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8938330/clojure-swap-atom-dequeuing ?
05:28	ljos	raek: thanks, that was what I was looking for (wait notify). I just didn't know if that was how locking worked. (I couldn't test right now as I don't have it available and I'm a bit too impatient to not ask instead of waiting to try).
05:56	c0smikdebris	anybody using sublime text 2 here?
05:59	raek	ljos: "(locking x ...)" or "synchronized (x) { ...}" is the locking part of the whole. "Monitor" is the term for the whole thing that, locking, .wait, and .notify participates in.
06:01	raek	on the JVM each object acts as a monitor with a single condition variable
06:06	ljos	Ah. Thank you for explaining. I didn't know that. I haven't worked a lot with concurrency and suddenly have to learn a lot on my own. I was trying to do some stuff with wait and notify earlier, but I didn't get it to work and got a lot of strange errors. I think I understand how it works now and can fix it later when I get back to it.
08:57	ljos	Another question. Is there a way to stop clojure.main from taking focus the first time I compile in Emacs (SLIME)?
08:57	ljos	Another question. Is there a way to stop clojure.main from taking focus the first time I compile in Emacs (SLIME)?
09:01	ljos	Another question. Is there a way to make clojure.main not take focus the first time I compile in Emacs (SLIME)?
09:05	manutter	Take focus?
09:05	solussd_	has anyone read let over lambda? is it a worthwhile read as an advanced lisp book for someone with some CL experience, but predominately clojure (w.r.t. lisps)?
09:06	pisketti	I've wondered that too
09:07	ljos	manutter: when I compile the first time (i'm in osx) a process starts that takes focus from my main window.
09:08	ljos	solussd_: I think Let Over Lambda is a book you should read regardless if you program in any LISP.
09:08	solussd_	ljos: I got the impression from reviews that a non-lisper would be lost!
09:08	cemerick	ljos: If you're doing anything with Swing or AWT, that'll happen. Your beef is with Apple.
09:09	ljos	cemerick: ah. Sigh. It isn't really a problem, just irretating.
09:10	solussd_	another random question- has anyone played with javafx 2.0 in clojure?
09:10	ljos	solussd_: you will be lost on the spesific items, but there some of the things discussed is very relevant for anyone.
09:10	solussd_	ljos: excellent. ill buy. :D
09:10	cemerick	ljos: If you're not doing anything with an actual UI (i.e. just using Java2D, etc), then you can likely get by with setting AWT to run in headless mode.
09:11	ljos	solussd_: I read it a while ago and will read it again soon as I have a better understanding of macros now. If you don't understand macros completely you really have to make an effort to read into the meta-level of what is being disussed and not worry about the actual implementation that is happening.
09:12	ljos	I learned a lot about how I program and other stuff from it asside from just macros and the let over lambda structure.
09:13	solussd_	ljos: I read on lisp a couple years ago- steep learning curve, but it got me comfortable w/ macros. Sounds like this book is at about the same level w.r.t. macros
09:13	ljos	cemerick: hmm.. maybe i'll try that. I am not actually shure what is going on because the UI code is not mine.. it is also in java and not really used :P
09:14	ljos	solussd_: LOL actually talks about and refers to things written in On Lisp.
09:15	solussd_	awesome
09:16	cemerick	ljos: The focus interaction on OS X is prompted by the AWT thread starting, which comes as a result of loading certain classes. There's certainly no requirement that the AWT reference be in your project, etc.
09:16	ljos	solussd_: I think if you have read and understood On Lisp you will find LOL very informative and you'll understand most of things that are going on. LOL goes a bit further and some things went completely over my head, but then again, I didn't really understand macros before I read it.
09:21	ljos	cemerick: Thank you btw. Now to figure out why -Djava.awt.headless=true isn't triggering....
09:26	ljos	Figured it out. I had java-opts in leiningen instead of jvm-opts.
10:16	chawks	Hi... I have a basic question. I am trying to create a project using Clojure 1.3, but I also need contrib. However, I'm not sure which version number I need to use for clojure-contrib in my lein project.clj file. Can anyone please help?
10:18	adamspgh	chawks: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
10:18	adamspgh	for 1.3 it's been separated into a bunch of more independent packages.
10:19	chawks	Thanks adamspgh. Does that mean I need to create a dependency for each one I'd like to use?
10:20	adamspgh	chawks: (as far as I know) yes.
10:27	bitpimp	:w ~/spring_talk_notes
10:27	bitpimp	lol... oops
10:27	bitpimp	guess you know what I'm doing this morning
10:28	chawks	adamspgh: Thanks
10:56	semperos	giving ccw a whirl (heavy emacs user); is there a keyboard shortcut to take my cursor from the file I'm currently editing to the REPL started by ccw?
11:03	arkh	what's the best way to stop swank so I can move to a different project and start it again?
11:03	arkh	(short of exiting emacs)
11:03	tmciver	arkh: , quit
11:04	semperos	arkh: I use elein, which has function elein-swank, elein-kill-swank and elein-reswank that I use for starting, stopping and restarting respectively
11:04	tmciver	arkh: to be clearer: when in the slime repl type comma, then type quit.
11:05	arkh	cool - thank you both
11:05	llasram	Oh, wow. Did not know about that... SLIME? Swank? command-mode. Anything else useful you can do with it?
11:06	arkh	wow ... what are the chances: http://www.facebook.com/eswank Moving on ...
11:13	geoffeg_c	can someone explain the best way to do this? https://gist.github.com/e2459686b2ad4594b954
11:13	geoffeg_c	If data does not contain a login_id key, i don't want to add the :set to the map
11:14	geoffeg_c	every solution i've come up with seems way too verbose
11:16	semperos	another ccw question: in strict mode, any way to get the equivalent of paredit's M-s?
11:17	semperos	paredit-splice-sexp
11:17	semperos	I see splitting and joining but no splicing...
11:25	cemerick	semperos: heh, I didn't even know about split and join :-P
11:25	semperos	was just checking out the ccw wiki on googlecode, saw those two, but I only use splice in Emacs' paredit
11:26	semperos	so it's absence is felt, but otherwise ccw has come a long way
11:28	cemerick	semperos: splice = C-enter C-x C-enter C-v :-P
11:29	cemerick	You could probably use one of the keyboard macro plugins to make a new shortcut for that.
11:30	semperos	cemerick: that works in eclipse?
11:30	cemerick	There's also http://www.mulgasoft.com/emacsplus for ex-emacers wanting some creature comforts in eclipse
11:31	semperos	and C is Control on the Mac in this case?
11:31	semperos	didn't work for me
11:31	cemerick	semperos: those are my bindings :-)
11:31	semperos	ah, gotcha
11:32	cemerick	C == Cmd, sorry
11:32	cemerick	I have "select enclosing element" (default Cmd-Shift-up) bound to Cmd-Enter
11:32	semperos	gotcha now, your own combo of remappings
11:32	semperos	which I could capture as a keyboard macro
11:32	semperos	thanks for the idea
11:34	tmciver	cemerick: "select enclosing element", is that a paredit function?
11:34	cemerick	nope, that's eclipse-land
11:34	cemerick	works across all languages
11:34	semperos	not sure if it depends on ccw version, but to get the same behavior as emacs paredit splice, you have to do C-enter twice, with your mapping
11:35	cemerick	semperos: depends on if your point is on a symbol already or in whitespace, probably
11:35	semperos	indeed
11:35	cemerick	mmm, gclosure deployed to central. This is promising. :-)
11:39	semperos	cemerick: thanks for your help
11:40	cemerick	semperos: np; feel free to ping again or mail the ccw ML if you have other questions.
11:40	semperos	will do
11:40	semperos	scratching the occasional itch to see how Clojure dev outside of emacs has progressed
11:41	semperos	as I can sell people on Clojure long before I can sell them on Emacs :-)
11:41	cemerick	heh, yeah
11:51	stuartsierra	GClosure has not YET been deployed to central, just staged to sonatype.
11:52	stuartsierra	Brenton and I will be doing more testing this afternoon.
12:04	zakwilson	https://renthubnyc.com/ <-- I made a thing for a customer using Clojure. It's still in progress, but... soft launch.
12:04	mdeboard	zakwilson: Nice. Did you choose clj because it conferred some project-specific benefits or?
12:05	mdeboard	zakwilson: Also, did you use Compojure? Noir? Something else?
12:06	zakwilson	mdeboard: Clojure is my favorite language. I couldn't see any reason NOT to use it for this, so I did.
12:06	zakwilson	It's Compojure, Hiccup, Gaka, some other stuff. I might migrate to Noir, but I think Noir wasn't quite as ready when this started.
12:14	mdeboard	zakwilson: Neat. I'd not heard of Gaka.
12:16	cemerick	For exactly what operations / usage patterns are array-maps faster than hash-maps? My not-very-serious microbenchmarking shows them at par, at best, with a variety of data sizes and operations.
12:19	wilkes	I did a clean install of lein 1.6.2 today and now I can't run my clojure 1.3 projects
12:19	wilkes	I get a "java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.KeywordLookupSite"
12:19	wilkes	error
12:19	wilkes	I've googled and see the problem all over the place, no clear solution
12:20	wilkes	any ideas?
12:20	dnolen	cemerick: array-maps are rarely faster in my experience
12:21	cemerick	yeah
12:21	cemerick	well, there goes that bit of lore
12:21	frankvilhelmsen_	Clean up your libs and run lein deps
12:22	dnolen	cemerick: less memory usage probably the biggest benefit.
12:22	wilkes	frankvilhelmsen_: that only works once
12:22	frankvilhelmsen_	and you many has to add default ./ to your classpath,,
12:23	dnolen	another getting started with Clojure post, http://www.rodrigoalvesvieira.com/getting-started-with-clojure/
12:24	frankvilhelmsen_	once,, ? check your dependencies is my guess
12:24	TimMc	cemerick: Did you let HotSpot warm up?
12:24	cemerick	yeah, I don't think I'm doing anything particularly heinous w.r.t. fouling up the timings
12:24	TimMc	OK
12:25	dnolen	TimMc: even if you let HotSpot warmup hashmaps are way faster once you get past a few elements.
12:25	cemerick	I hit parity only with single-entry maps
12:25	wilkes	frankvilhelmsen_: it's weird, because everything was working sorta fine (lein deps was slow), so I blew everything away and reinstalled lein 1.6.2
12:25	dnolen	you can see this behavior in a big way in core.logic. Once you get past 32 logic variables things starting screaming.
12:26	TimMc	cemerick: I only asked because you recently ran a speed check against clojurebot with only 1000 iterations. :-)
12:26	wilkes	frankvilhelmsen_: and I'm using the clojurscriptone project as my testbed
12:26	cemerick	TimMc: heh, I don't recall
12:26	cemerick	I did 1e8 for the map comparisons.
12:27	chawks	Hi. Does anyone know if I can use duck-streams with clojure 1.3?
12:27	raek	wilkes: from what I can tell it looks like you have ahead of time compiled code compiled for clojure 1.2 on the classpath
12:28	raek	chawks: it has been replaced by clojure.java.io and some functions in clojure.core since clojure 1.2
12:29	raek	wilkes: does this happen in a fresh clojure 1.3 project?
12:29	wilkes	raek: let me check
12:30	chawks	raek: Thanks... do you know if there's anything like write-lines (writing a seq of string to a file)? I tried looking there but didn't find anything
12:31	wilkes	raek: nope, seems fine there
12:33	_carlos_	hi!
12:35	raek	chawks: don't think so. you may have to implement it yourself. (e.g. with 'with-open', 'clojure.java.io/writer', and 'doseq')
12:36	wilkes	raek: I did a clean checkout of clojurescriptone, script/deps works fine, then ran lein help and get https://gist.github.com/1648607
12:37	raek	maybe a library that clojurescriptone uses is AOT compiled for 1.2 or something
12:37	chawks	raek: thanks!
12:38	raek	but this happened when you upgraded _leiningen_?
12:39	raek	wilkes: something like this: (defn write-lines [stream lines & options] (with-open [writer (apply io/writer stream options)] (doseq [line lines] (.write line) (.write "\n"))))
12:41	raek	I think the reason read-lines was not carried over had to do with laziness vs. resource management. it's hard to encapsulate the closing of the stream while having laziness
12:41	wilkes	raek: more like a re-install, cleaned up some stuff but stayed on 1.6.2
12:41	raek	wilkes: do you have any plugins installed in ~/.lein/plugins ?
12:41	wilkes	raek: not at the moment, I pulled those out for the time being
12:43	raek	the exception is thrown from within the leiningen process, I think. this suggests the problem is in a plugin or dev-dependency
12:43	technomancy_	wilkes: definitely a dev-dependency
12:46	wilkes	technomancy_: yep, I created an empty project and added the deps in one by one, running lein deps twice each iteration
12:47	wilkes	it fails when I get to [marginalia "0.7.0-SNAPSHOT"]
12:47	stuartsierra	Working on getting ClojureScript JARs published...
12:47	technomancy_	stuartsierra: great news
12:47	wilkes	stuartsierra++
12:47	raek	(inc stuartsierra)
12:47	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:48	stuartsierra	Will need people to help test in just a moment
12:48	technomancy_	wilkes: why marginalia rather than lein-marginalia?
12:48	wilkes	that's what's in clojurescriptone
12:48	technomancy_	oh right; not your project
12:48	technomancy_	do you see the same effect with lein-marginalia?
12:49	wilkes	technomancy_: yes
12:49	technomancy_	hum.
12:51	technomancy_	I don't get it; marginalia uses 1.2.0
12:52	technomancy_	just go ahead and remove those deps for now; can you also open an issue on Leiningen?
12:52	wilkes	technomancy_: will do, thanks for you help
12:57	wilkes	raek, thanks for your help too
13:01	stuartsierra	OK, we need some help.
13:02	stuartsierra	Here's a project.clj: https://gist.github.com/1648712
13:02	stuartsierra	It doesn't work.
13:02	stuartsierra	The dependencies are right, but we can't load the ClojureScript REPL.
13:03	technomancy_	how are you trying to load the repl?
13:03	stuartsierra	quickstart instructions on https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start
13:05	cemerick	stuartsierra: I get "Unterminated comment" in goog/deps.js Is that the problem you see as well?
13:05	stuartsierra	yes
13:05	technomancy	I can't get the deps
13:05	technomancy	is it possible I need to wait to let the mirrors propagate or something?
13:05	cemerick	technomancy: should just work, that's what the staging repo is for
13:07	technomancy	Error transferring file: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unexpected error: java.security.InvalidAlgorithmParameterException: the trustAnchors parameter must be non-empty
13:07	technomancy	never seen that one before
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	hi :)
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	jon hu
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	rew
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	world of warcraft
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	thats me
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	sc"brssa\`drqew
13:08	babilen	ops?
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	OPS?
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	ghjiko
13:08	WorldOfWarcraft	p
13:08	TimMc	WorldOfWarcraft: You're being irritating.
13:09	WorldOfWarcraft	one sec let me look up what irratating means
13:09	babilen	WorldOfWarcraft: This is a support channel -- Please ask a question or stay silent. Thank you very much.
13:09	WorldOfWarcraft	oh...
13:09	WorldOfWarcraft	im sorry for being
13:09	Raynes	babilen: /ignore WorldOfWarcraft
13:09	WorldOfWarcraft	irratating
13:09	cemerick	stuartsierra: I haven't the foggiest; goog/deps.js looks ok
13:09	stuartsierra	yeah
13:09	WorldOfWarcraft	STOP BEING MEAN!!!!!
13:09	cemerick	but load order could end up causing the error message to be misleading
13:09	WorldOfWarcraft	your irratating
13:10	stuartsierra	cemerick: good point
13:10	WorldOfWarcraft	BANANAS!!!!!!!!!
13:10	WorldOfWarcraft	f
13:10	cemerick	stuartsierra: I'd have to think that the gclosure packaging is busted somehow?
13:10	WorldOfWarcraft	wow stop trolling
13:10	cemerick	chouser: around?
13:11	WorldOfWarcraft	stop being a meanie
13:11	Raynes	Freenode not-so-secret-secret: you can request that freenode take care of such problems in the absence of ops. #freenode.
13:11	mebaran151	I'm finishing a little library I think might be of use to the community, a quick library to read and write Excel files (based on the Apache POI). What's the best way to release it?
13:12	stuartsierra	cemerick: seems that way
13:12	TimMc	mebaran151: Jar it up and publish to clojars.
13:12	cemerick	Raynes: I always forget about that!
13:13	seancorfield	mebaran151: also worth putting it on github so folks can look at source, send you patches etc
13:13	technomancy	mebaran151: "lein help tutorial" covers publishing libraries
13:13	Raynes	stuartsierra: You should talk to chouser about getting ops for all clojure/core members in here.
13:13	technomancy	cemerick: you're able to pull in this dep with the latest stable lein?
13:14	cemerick	technomancy: I'm using 1.6.2
13:14	technomancy	no, that's what I'm using too
13:15	technomancy	if I use lein2 I get this: org.sonatype.aether.resolution.ArtifactResolutionException: Could not transfer artifact org.clojure:clojurescript:pom:0.0-927 from/to oss-sonatype-staging (https://oss.sonatype.org/content/groups/staging/): No connector available to access repository oss-sonatype-staging (https://oss.sonatype.org/content/groups/staging/) of type default using the available factories FileRepositoryConnectorF
13:15	technomancy	actory, WagonRepositoryConnectorFactory
13:15	cemerick	that's silly
13:15	technomancy	I know!
13:15	Raynes	I wish I had more WagonRepositoryConnectorFactories in my life.
13:16	technomancy	Raynes: upgrade to leiningen 2!
13:16	technomancy	your dreams can come true
13:16	technomancy	(at zombo com)
13:17	cemerick	technomancy: confirmed in pomegranate directly
13:17	technomancy	confirmed working?
13:18	cemerick	confirmed broken
13:18	technomancy	aha
13:18	cemerick	it's the https
13:18	stuartsierra	OK, hold on, going to delete the JARs I uploaded and make some more...
13:19	cemerick	good grief
13:20	cemerick	technomancy: ok, got a fix. I'll push once I get back from lunch.
13:20	technomancy	great
13:21	technomancy	hm; I can get other jars from sonatype staging just fine
13:21	cemerick	technomancy: are files, http, and https the only default repo types that we should care about, or is some oddball using ftp, etc?
13:22	technomancy	I wouldn't worry about ftp
13:22	technomancy	and s3 stuff can use a separate wagon
13:22	cemerick	gopher? pigeon? fedex?
13:22	technomancy	qrcodes-by-webcam
13:22	cemerick	QueCat!
13:23	mebaran151	thanks technomancy
13:24	mebaran151	btw, is there a preferred license for publishing clojure libraries
13:24	stuartsierra	OK, new set of JARs uploaded to Sonatype Staging.
13:25	raek	mebaran151: EPL is very common in Clojure-land
13:26	stuartsierra	You'll need to delete ClojureScript from your local ~/.m2/repository
13:27	stuartsierra	Seems to be working this time.
13:27	technomancy	same issue here
13:28	technomancy	looks like switching to http fixes it
13:29	stuartsierra	technomancy: OK. The special repository URL is temporary anyway.
13:31	mrBliss	compiling this application of core.match throws an exception: (match [1 '(2 3)] [a ([b c] :seq)] :ok)
13:31	mrBliss	-> Unable to resolve symbol: ocr-7002_tail__7004 in this context
13:34	cemerick	technomancy: what's the error you get in lein 1.6.2?
13:35	stuartsierra	New ClojureScript JARs available in staging. Same gist applies, https://gist.github.com/1648712
13:35	stuartsierra	Can anybody else confirm it is working?
13:36	cemerick	stuartsierra: yup, looks tasty
13:36	franks	technomancy: trying to make changes to the "repl-options" function in your repl.clj code... but I'm truly confused by all the (back-)quoting and delayed eval, which starts to feel like black magic...
13:36	xeqi	stuartsierra: works for me
13:36	stuartsierra	cemerick: thanks
13:36	cemerick	That's a helluva set of dependencies though! ;-)
13:36	stuartsierra	xeqi: thanks
13:36	stuartsierra	cemerick: you mean the stuff that gets pulled in?
13:36	stuartsierra	That's all from the G.Closure compiler POM, which we didn't write.
13:37	franks	technomancy: for example how do I refer to a local var in the same file for the "read" option?
13:37	cemerick	stuartsierra: yeah, I figured
13:37	Bronsa	works for me too
13:37	stuartsierra	So we're considering releasing our own package with fewer dependencies. Or people can just exclude them.
13:37	cemerick	Exclusions are fine for now IMO.
13:38	technomancy	stuartsierra: just confirmed I can get a cljs repl with "lein run"; very nice.
13:38	cemerick	stuartsierra: why a classifier instead of 0.0.927?
13:38	stuartsierra	technomancy: awesome
13:38	franks	technomancy: say I have a local function "myprint", and I want to assign that function inside of the repl-options to the read option... how would I "quote" that?
13:38	stuartsierra	cemerick: just to make it obvious that it's a patch number, not a version number
13:40	technomancy	doesn't know what to do with ^D, but that's minor
13:40	cemerick	I think that's intentional?
13:45	stuartsierra	OK, I think we're going to release these.
13:45	stuartsierra	Speak now, or forever hold your peace.
13:46	cemerick	stuartsierra: oh, this isn't on hudson. o.0
13:46	stuartsierra	Nope. That's a whole 'nother day's work.
13:46	cemerick	looks good to me FWIW.
13:48	cemerick	stuartsierra: thank you for your efforts :-)
13:48	cemerick	ClojureScript views in Clutch, coming soon.
13:49	stuartsierra	ZE BUTTON HAZ BEEN PUSHED!
13:50	metajack1	out of curiosity, why is the EPL so popular?
13:50	technomancy	it's copyleft, but it's not viral. what's not to like? =)
13:52	metajack1	you mean it's not always viral i guess
13:52	metajack1	the virality would seem the only reason to use it over Apache 2.0 or something right?
13:52	TimMc	WHat's the difference between that and LGPL?
13:53	metajack	timmc: LGPL is a little hazy on where the boundary is when you aren't dealing with C code and object files.
13:53	metajack	I'm assuming that is more clear in the EPL.
14:00	technomancy	it's pretty close to the LGPL, but it doesn't freak out the suits because it has "Eclipse" in the name.
14:01	TimMc	haha
14:02	TimMc	"Enterprise Public License"
14:02	cemerick	I try to use BSD or MIT on pure open source stuff, but the whole "same license as Clojure's" is a hard tide to stand in front of.
14:03	Raynes	cemerick: I visualize a tidal wave of lawyers crashing down on you.
14:03	scottj	cemerick: have you released your bayes library?
14:04	technomancy	the main difference between BSD and MIT-X11 is that with BSD you have to clarify that it's not the annoying 4-clause version, right?
14:04	cemerick	Raynes: Mostly piles of random people in my twitter feed asking why I'm using license X.
14:04	cemerick	"piles"
14:05	cemerick	scottj: No…I'm a louse. Haven't had a lot of hacking time to tie it up since the conj. :-(
14:14	beffbernard	Gentlemen. I have a question regarding workflow using inferior-lisp/Clojure/emacs.
14:15	TimMc	There are probably 3.5 answers.
14:15	technomancy	clojurebot: inferior-lisp is a lot like http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/09/28
14:15	beffbernard	Some background.. I know my way around emacs but I'm new to clojure development
14:16	beffbernard	TimMc: My workflow is basically C-x C-e
14:16	hiredman	why would you use something with "inferior" in the name?
14:16	clojurebot	Ok.
14:16	TimMc	...
14:17	Raynes	The man has a point
14:17	beffbernard	hiredman: haha because that's as far as I've gotten
14:17	beffbernard	;)
14:17	TimMc	(that was in reference to hiredman)
14:17	TimMc	"inferior" preumably refers to it being started from Emacs?
14:18	beffbernard	Is there a way to automatically eval the buffer when I save in my REPL?
14:18	beffbernard	yes
14:18	beffbernard	Let me re-phrase
14:18	technomancy	beffbernard: I hooked something like that up for slime; it's not hard
14:19	beffbernard	Is there a way when I save to have it reflect in my inferior buffer's REPL?
14:19	beffbernard	technomancy: Oh yah?
14:20	beffbernard	technomancy: I tried slime for a short period but I was getting slowness with the SLIME REPL so I ditched it.
14:20	technomancy	slowness when the buffer got too big?
14:20	beffbernard	technomancy: But that was probably because I did something wrong and was too lazy to figure it out
14:21	beffbernard	technomancy: Nope, I'd try something like (+ 234 345 4534) and there would be a pause as I was typing it
14:21	technomancy	o_O
14:21	beffbernard	One sec.. I'll get the error
14:23	hiredman	most like using an old version of swank-clojure together with clojure 1.3 and the docstring printing to the minibuffer was barfing?
14:23	beffbernard	error in process filter: Wrong type argument: listp, 1
14:24	hiredman	beffbernard: gnue emacs?
14:24	beffbernard	hiredman: yes
14:24	hiredman	using clojure-jack-in?
14:24	beffbernard	Yup
14:24	hiredman	what version of emacs?
14:25	cemerick	stuartsierra: Is there an issue/discussion somewhere re: "The most recent SVN revision does not currently work with ClojureScript."?
14:25	beffbernard	Some recent version of HEAD
14:25	hiredman	hmmm
14:25	beffbernard	swank-clojure "1.3.4"
14:26	beffbernard	and I'm using clojure "1.3.0"
14:27	technomancy	beffbernard: maybe an old version of slime left in your emacs config?
14:27	ibdknox	woah!
14:27	ibdknox	an official CLJS
14:27	ibdknox	[org.clojure/clojurescript "0.0-927"]
14:27	ibdknox	/win
14:27	cemerick	you missed the party already ;-)
14:27	stuartsierra	cemerick: dunno
14:27	beffbernard	technomancy: It's possible
14:27	beffbernard	technomancy: https://github.com/beffbernard/emacs is my .emacs.d
14:27	stuartsierra	taking off for a bit
14:28	ibdknox	cemerick: damn
14:28	ibdknox	lol
14:28	cemerick	:-)
14:28	ibdknox	I'll start my own party :D
14:29	ibdknox	now I just need to figure out how to get the cljs repl to work in vim
14:30	cemerick	ibdknox: or stop using vim?
14:30	cemerick	sorry, was too easy
14:30	ibdknox	cemerick: pfft, what kind of solution is that?
14:30	TimMc	WHere would he put all his colons?
14:31	ibdknox	I'd have a file full of j's and k's
14:31	ibdknox	it'd be terrible
14:31	cemerick	technomancy: pomegranate 0.0.3 pushed and released to central, fixes that stupid HTTPS bug
14:31	cemerick	And one other minor one
14:31	beffbernard	technomancy: ; SLIME 2012-01-06
14:32	technomancy	cemerick: much obliged
14:32	chawks	Hi. Does anybody know how to upload files using Noir (via a form)?
14:32	beffbernard	technomancy: Possibly too new?
14:32	technomancy	beffbernard: see if you can get rid of that version; jack-in will provide you with a compatible version
14:32	ibdknox	chawks: it was asked on the list at one point
14:32	beffbernard	ok
14:33	ibdknox	chawks: http://groups.google.com/group/clj-noir/browse_thread/thread/58e45ad02bb21571/a5e580f8f9c69b9d?lnk=gst&q=upload#a5e580f8f9c69b9d
14:33	chawks	ibdknox: Thanks a lot!
14:34	ibdknox	I guess noir-cljs will be back this weekend
14:34	ibdknox	:)
14:34	technomancy	ibdknox: what's the relationship between that and cljs-watch?
14:35	ibdknox	technomancy: noir-cljs would mean that a deployed server would mean no more JS artifacts checked in
14:35	ibdknox	they would be compiled on run
14:35	ibdknox	cljs-watch is mostly just a dev tool
14:35	beffbernard	technomancy: Don't I have to add slime to my load-path first? Or is jack-in doing some package magic?
14:35	ibdknox	though right now I've been checking in my generated js :(
14:36	cemerick	ibdknox: that's the way it should always be
14:36	hiredman	beffbernard: jack-in actually injects a copy of slime into emacs
14:36	ibdknox	cemerick: hm?
14:36	technomancy	beffbernard: magick
14:36	cemerick	js compiled at runtime
14:36	beffbernard	hiredman: ok
14:36	technomancy	ibdknox: excellent
14:37	technomancy	cemerick: wellll... build-time.
14:37	ibdknox	technomancy: actually this resolves one of the issues we talked about at waza
14:37	ibdknox	if we get ckirkendell's change to let us specify externs in jars... that would mean it's time for world domination
14:38	ibdknox	we'd have a real library story
14:40	beffbernard	technomancy: hiredman: That worked.. Thanks
14:45	beffbernard	I want to evaluate my clojure code in emacs. I know I can C-x C-e but are there other ways to evaluate the clojure code in the editor?
14:45	beffbernard	Or in SLIME
14:45	technomancy	beffbernard: the readme for swank-clojure has a cheat-sheet
14:45	technomancy	for slime
14:45	beffbernard	ok
14:54	amalloy	sometimes it seems like every button combo you can imagine evaluates code in slime
14:54	Raynes	amalloy: Not in Vim. :D
14:55	Raynes	In vim, things just beep and occasionally text disappears or moves around.
14:55	ibdknox	you should turn the beep off
14:55	Raynes	I actually know that I can do that.
14:55	Raynes	I just haven't bothered.
14:56	amalloy	ibdknox: but then his computer wouldn't appear haunted to the casual observer
14:56	ibdknox	lol
14:57	ibdknox	I had it on for years
15:00	scottj	beffbernard: C-M-x and C-c C-l being the most common
15:01	technomancy	scottj: C-c C-k is preferred over C-c C-l unless you explicitly need a full reload
15:01	amalloy	down with C-c C-l, long live C-c C-k (not that there's any real difference)
15:01	technomancy	amalloy: there is, now.
15:01	llasram	I was about to say, I've never used either of those :-)
15:01	amalloy	technomancy: as of when? last time i tried that it definitely didn't reload
15:02	technomancy	amalloy: couple months? I dunno. I don't actually use it; maybe it doesn't work anymore?
15:02	scottj	technomancy: yeah actually I think that's what I normally use just got confused when I had to write out the letters :)
15:02	technomancy	scottj: fingers N steps ahead of the ol' brain; I know how it is =)
15:02	sritchie	C-x C-e at the end of a form is good too
15:03	technomancy	C-c C-k gets you line numbers though; so use that the most.
15:03	amalloy	sritchie: way less convenient than C-M-x in almost all cases
15:03	scottj	btw I cover a couple interesting eval keystrokes in my screencasts at http://youtube.com/emailataskcom one is eval parent expression (like C-M-x but not top level) and another is eval threaded up to point
15:03	technomancy	amalloy: good for things inside a let binding or some such
15:03	technomancy	checking single values
15:03	sritchie	amalloy: I use it for evaluating forms inside of other forms
15:04	TimMc	It's funny how y'all are using the default keybindings in discussion, but so many people have these rebound or have different defaults...
15:04	amalloy	note i carefully included "almost". it's still pretty rare that something in a let-binding doesn't refer to some local that won't be picked up by C-x C-e
15:04	ibdknox	TimMc: yeah, it's a magical discussion
15:04	technomancy	do people rebind the slime ones?
15:04	ibdknox	I press R to evaluate things ;)
15:04	sritchie	amalloy: I recently discovered C-M-x, it's been transformative
15:04	TimMc	I guess some of the names are pretty long.
15:05	sritchie	ibdknox: is vimclojure the way to go?
15:05	amalloy	like, if the code is inside a function at all, then there are args to the function that C-x C-e won't pick up when you eval a piece of it
15:05	ibdknox	sritchie: I like it, but it's definitely not at the level of emacs. That being said, I don't think I'm any less productive as a result.
15:06	amalloy	ibdknox: is it okay if i mockingly compare you to people who think macros sound nice but they're no less productive without them?
15:06	ibdknox	amalloy: no :p I use macros ;)
15:06	Raynes	ibdknox: If I had ever used or cared about half of what SLIME gave me, I'd be less productive in Vim. But I didn't and I don't and I'm fine with Vim for now. I'm giving it an honest run for its money.
15:07	ibdknox	moreover, most of my time is spent thinking anyways, and whatever you may gain in interactivity I gain in speed of editing :D
15:07	Raynes	And my refheap.vim plugin works much better than my refheap.el plugin, so #winning.
15:07	hiredman	how can you have fast editing without paredit?
15:07	ibdknox	hiredman: I have paredit.vim :)
15:08	chawks	Does anyone know how to define a form for uploading files in Noir? My defpage which is supposed to get the file just receives nil instead
15:09	Raynes	I think Vim has better sexp editing capabilities out of the box than Emacs, right? da( = you've just deleted the current form.
15:09	oakwise	as a vim user, I've been really happy using evil-mode in emacs
15:09	technomancy	Raynes: since you've used both, how does vim's paredit compare?
15:09	cemerick	Raynes: You've convinced me that anything is possible.
15:09	cemerick	If technomancy were to switch to vim, I'd start stocking canned goods.
15:09	oakwise	all of that nice vim editing with a clean(er) backend
15:09	technomancy	cemerick: I've got lots of respect for vim. I just don't think I could stand vimscript.
15:09	amalloy	Raynes: C-M-k isn't part of paredit though, so delete-current-form isn't a convincing example
15:09	cemerick	technomancy: I ;-)
15:10	Raynes	technomancy: It works pretty well. slurp-forward is a little awkward because it moves the paren forward instead of the actual text.
15:10	cemerick	I should give vim a try in conjunction with vimclipse.
15:11	technomancy	cemerick: some time we need to have a chat about signing artifacts and how that would mesh with moving away from clojars' current mosh-pit model.
15:11	Raynes	technomancy: I also can't find a way to force insert and delete parens (if they get mismatched somehow). You can toggle it on and off, but there isn't a command for doing that. I added one to my .vimrc. Wasn't hard.
15:11	Raynes	It's easy because paredit.vim has a function for toggling it -- just isn't bound to anything by default.
15:12	cemerick	technomancy: I think once a lein-central plugin is settled, we'll know enough to talk about that intelligently.
15:12	llasram	Raynes: Not C-q (
15:12	llasram	?
15:12	emezeske	Raynes: When I need to force-insert or delete, I replace the single character with the 'r' command
15:12	emezeske	Raynes: paredit.vim doesn't enforce balance when you replace a single character
15:12	pjstadig	i usually just copy and paste an open or close paren
15:12	cemerick	technomancy: Preview: what if Clojars could just be a Clojure-centric search UI for central?
15:13	llasram	Raynes: Oh, context again. nm
15:13	Raynes	emezeske: That works too.
15:13	technomancy	cemerick: tempting, but the delays and group-id policies make me hesitant.
15:14	Raynes	technomancy: But yeah, paredit.vim is fine for what I use it for. Your mileage may vary.
15:14	technomancy	my mileage is not likely to vary.
15:14	technomancy	=)
15:14	llasram	On the Scala mailing list there was some envy recently for how easy the clojars process is vs. the comparable scala repo process
15:14	technomancy	llasram: I heard the scala equivalent of clojars just stopped accepting new uploads
15:14	pjstadig	yeah i just don't see the problem with clojars
15:14	technomancy	until they find a new sponsor or something
15:14	chewbranca	paredit.vim strongly helped convine me to move to emacs ;-)
15:14	cemerick	technomancy: I'm with you on the delay.
15:14	chewbranca	*convince
15:14	technomancy	pjstadig: releases and snapshots in the same repo is crappy.
15:15	pjstadig	i think a low barrier to entry is more important than anything else
15:15	pjstadig	people can sign if they want
15:15	technomancy	I don't think that's good enough
15:15	technomancy	people can sign if they want right now, and no one does
15:15	cemerick	If you look 5 years up, having Clojars be such a linchpin of the entire dev process is going to freak out mainstream sorts that we'd really rather have in the fold.
15:15	pjstadig	signing doesn't guarantee anything anyway
15:15	TimMc	I still don't know what signing is.
15:15	chawks	Does anyone know what this error means "No implementation of method: :as-file of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/Coercions found for class: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap" ?
15:16	hiredman	it means you are calling clojure.java.io/file on a map
15:16	technomancy	pjstadig: it guarantees that malicious uploads only happen in the case of leaked keys
15:16	ibdknox	chawks: the form would look something like this: https://refheap.com/paste/367
15:16	technomancy	pjstadig: or people turning evil, I guess =)
15:17	pjstadig	technomancy: it only guarantees that a jar came from someone you "trust", but deciding to trust someone seems to be the more important issue
15:17	chawks	thanks guys
15:17	pjstadig	and no technological feature will help you with that
15:17	pjstadig	besides not just anyone can push to any group id
15:17	technomancy	pjstadig: it can guarantee that future releases of a jar were released by the same person who released the older versions
15:17	pjstadig	technomancy: yeah and that's good, and i agree its a step that should be taken
15:17	technomancy	clojars uses sha1 for passwords for pete's sake =\
15:17	Raynes	ibdknox: You didn't paste that from a .clj file, did you?
15:17	pjstadig	it's not a panacea
15:18	emezeske	pjstadig: if I compromised clojars.org right now, I could taint all of the jars
15:18	ibdknox	Raynes: I set the syntax but it was just a buffer :(
15:18	emezeske	pjstadig: at least with signing, I couldn't do that
15:18	pjstadig	sure
15:18	technomancy	hm; maybe I shouldn't have said that in a publicly-logged channel
15:18	pjstadig	so let's sign
15:18	trptcolin	technomancy: your password is "sha1"? that seems pretty short.
15:18	llasram	technomancy: Oh, yeah. Shows how carefully I read that mailing list -- comparison is clojars vs. sonatype, which is apparently what the Scala community is doing now
15:18	pjstadig	i don't see a need to force people to sign though
15:18	Raynes	ibdknox: It determines highlighting based on file extension. I just wanted to make sure it didn't break on a .clj file.
15:18	technomancy	llasram: oh sure; sonatype makes sense
15:18	TimMc	technomancy: It's OK; I'm sure if you ask nicely everyone will go scrub their logs.
15:18	technomancy	pjstadig: I'm OK with unsigned snapshots
15:18	cemerick	llasram: link, please?
15:19	TimMc	technomancy: Just include a hidde log-scrubber in the next lein update.
15:19	pjstadig	the other issue with signing is you're assuming that a person properly protects their key
15:19	technomancy	pjstadig: necessary but not sufficient.
15:19	emezeske	pjstadig: better than nothing
15:20	pjstadig	cryptography is nice, but it's not a magic talismen
15:20	technomancy	it doesn't make it secure, it makes it possible to be secure
15:20	emezeske	pjstadig: if keys are comprimised, it will be one at a time
15:20	emezeske	pjstadig: instead of the entire repository being comprimised
15:21	pjstadig	don't get me wrong...i'm not arguing against signing
15:21	ldh	i'm trying to get an RFC 1123 timestamp with clj-time. For starters I've got: (unparse (formatter "EEE, dd MMM yyyy HH:mm:ss z") (time/now))
15:21	ldh	which yields something like: "Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:22:21 UTC"
15:21	technomancy	pjstadig: we can't close down the current clojars repository
15:21	ldh	is there a way to get that in GMT? doesn't look like JodaTime supports GMT....
15:21	technomancy	pjstadig: and I don't think we should necessarily change its policies
15:22	technomancy	pjstadig: what I want to do is add a "releases" repository that's less of a mosh-pit
15:22	pjstadig	but just because the jars are published by the same person doesn't mean they can't be malicious or introduce a bonehead bug that destroys data
15:22	pjstadig	yeah
15:22	llasram	cemerick: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/scala-user/n0oQvMpIpBY/discussion
15:22	pjstadig	i could get behind that
15:22	cemerick	llasram: thanks
15:22	pjstadig	technomancy: so what's the timeline? :)
15:22	technomancy	pjstadig: possibly add a separate snapshots repo; possibly just use the current one
15:22	technomancy	hah
15:22	technomancy	yeah
15:22	technomancy	well
15:22	llasram	cemerick: Top of the thread -- not sure how I linked there
15:22	technomancy	pjstadig: it'll happen before lein 2.0 is released.
15:23	technomancy	which means that it will probably delay the release of lein 2.0 =)
15:23	cemerick	gd the new google groups
15:24	technomancy	spiewak is against the domain limitation; good man. =)
15:24	cemerick	technomancy: I wonder if the whole thing could be shifted onto s3 to resolve any operational concerns?
15:24	technomancy	cemerick: been planning that for months actually =)
15:25	cemerick	:-D
15:25	technomancy	clojars becomes a thin layer surrounding bucket deploys
15:25	stuartsierra	s3 goes down from time to time
15:25	technomancy	cemerick: well, I haven't actually gotten around to it, so...
15:26	hiredman	http://www.taguri.org/
15:26	cemerick	stuartsierra: probably less often than clojars, esp. if the rack clojars' box runs on burns up.
15:26	technomancy	I wonder if the respectable-clojars could actually operate fairly independently of mosh-pit clojars
15:26	pjstadig	sure
15:26	pjstadig	come up with a cool new name, phil
15:27	TimMc	monoclj
15:27	technomancy	pjstadig: I actually came up with the name "clojars" independently of ato c. six months before him.
15:27	TimMc	monocles are very respectable
15:27	technomancy	it's a fairly obvious portmanteau. =)
15:28	hiredman	lein.de.ps
15:28	technomancy	I'm thinking they could be fairly separate operationally but present a unified interface
15:28	TimMc	I really shouldn't say anything. I've already perpetrated one terrible name while joking.
15:28	technomancy	anyway, /me lunches
15:28	hiredman	.ps is palestine
15:28	hiredman	$60/yr
15:36	Raynes	technomancy: VimL is pretty bad. The pain is eased somewhat by the ability to write plugins in Ruby and Python. And Scheme, I think.
16:23	solussd_	if I use a relative path in project.clj, are they relative to the directory that the project.clj is in?
16:24	sritchie	solussd_: yup
16:24	sritchie	:source-path "src/clj"
16:25	solussd_	thanks
16:27	cemerick	technomancy: re: `heroku run lein repl` — am I reading this right that that pipes a REPL from the deployed app (or, maybe, one of the 'dynos' serving the deployed app)?
16:29	llasram	It's all fun and games until someone escapes a chroot
16:35	technomancy	Raynes: true, but out-of-process plugins are an admission of defeat as far as I'm concerned
16:36	technomancy	cemerick: it starts an independent dyno for the repl
16:36	Raynes	technomancy: It's out of process?
16:36	cemerick	ah, ok
16:36	JanxSpirit	I have a puzzle that has been solved in several languages but not Clojure, and I just started looking at Clojure, so I don't know how to do it
16:36	technomancy	cemerick: working on a way to get a repl in-process, but it requires bringing your own SSH host as a proxy
16:36	JanxSpirit	we're generally looking for the fewest LOC/most elegant solve
16:37	cemerick	technomancy: ack; better to get HTTP nrepl transport humming
16:37	technomancy	cemerick: that would make it a lot easier
16:37	technomancy	how far off is it?
16:37	JanxSpirit	given something like [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10], return [[1,2],[3],[4,5,6],[7,8],[9],[10]]
16:37	JanxSpirit	the returned lists are random length 1-3
16:37	JanxSpirit	and everything stays in order
16:38	cemerick	technomancy: I'm plugging the bits together as we speak. Super rough on the githubs next week?
16:38	technomancy	excellent; please do keep me posted
16:38	cemerick	nrepl will have minimum of 3 transport impls, just to make sure the interface isn't stupid
16:39	TimMc	JanxSpirit: I'd look at the partition* functions.
16:39	JanxSpirit	excellent - thanks
16:39	TimMc	or the split funcs
16:42	brodyberg	Hey all, I have a protocol question
16:42	brodyberg	I am looking at an example in Joy of Clojure - 9-5. The example uses defn to setup a closure around a protocol implementation.
16:42	brodyberg	My question is that when I went to go try to use the symbol the example defines my invocations of the symbol implementations of the protocol don't appear to happen. In fact I know they don't happen because I get an exception from class.lang.PersistentVector.
16:42	brodyberg	If I then cause PersistentVector to implement the protocol I can see that even when I am trying to invoke the first protocol implementation the PersistentVector implementation is chosen.
16:43	brodyberg	But the example seems to imply using the code as-is should "just work."
16:43	brodyberg	Ye olde gist: https://gist.github.com/1649734
16:43	brodyberg	What I want to learn is how to use fixed-fixo to end up with something that enforces the limit to the vector size that the code advertises.
16:48	llasram	I don't have my copy of JoC open, but the gist looks slightly confusing -- the arity of `fixo-limit' isn't consistent
16:48	brodyberg	that's true
16:49	brodyberg	that's a function I added when trying to figure out why the limit wasn't being respected
16:50	dnolen	JanxSpirit: do you have examples in other languages? that'll be pretty simple in Clojure.
16:50	amalloy	JanxSpirit: split-at seems like your #1 suspect
16:51	JanxSpirit	that's what I used in Scala...hang on...
16:52	dnolen	JanxSpirit: I've got something that works that probably can't get any shorter unless you programming in K or something.
16:53	TimMc	or APL
16:53	JanxSpirit	hmm...can't find it right now but I can rewrite it - basically the Scala one used a splitAt and pattern match and recursion...it was 3 or 4 meaningful lines
16:54	dnolen	TimMc: well K is APL-like
16:54	TimMc	amalloy: unfold might be good here
16:54	amalloy	heh, "meaningful" lines. a nice way of saying "my language makes me write extra rubbish"
16:55	llasram	brodyberg: LOL
16:55	llasram	brodyberg: Typo from hell
16:55	llasram	brodyberg: Your one-arg form of fixed-fixo doesn't have parens around the intended call to `fixed-fixo'
16:55	TimMc	dnolen: Unlike R, K doesn't seem to be Googleable by itself. :-)
16:56	dnolen	TimMc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_(programming_language)
16:56	TimMc	yeah
16:56	llasram	brodyberg: So it just returns an empty vector (last form in the body) each time
16:56	brodyberg	llasram let me check that out
16:56	llasram	I wonder how difficult it would be to make the compiler complain about that...
16:57	technomancy	huh; apparently scala-tools.org hosted jenkins as well as mvn repos
16:57	brodyberg	llasram that was it, thanks
16:57	llasram	Because they need to recompile the world for every compiler release?
16:58	technomancy	heh
16:58	technomancy	but that explains why they didn't want to keep it up; running everyone's tests like that is a lot more expensive than just serving up a bunch of static files
17:01	JanxSpirit	OK Scala one is something like this:
17:01	JanxSpirit	scala> def chunk(l: List[Int], i: Int): List[List[Int]] = l.splitAt(i) match {
17:01	JanxSpirit	\| case (Nil, Nil) => Nil
17:01	JanxSpirit	\| case (ch, rest) => ch :: chunk(rest, (util.Random.nextInt(3) + 1))
17:01	JanxSpirit	\| }
17:01	JanxSpirit	chunk((1 to 10).toList, util.Random.nextInt(3) +1)
17:01	JanxSpirit	res12: List[List[Int]] = List(List(1), List(2, 3, 4), List(5, 6, 7), List(8), List(9), List(10))
17:02	JanxSpirit	amalloy: I come from Java, so Scala hardly feels like a lot of rubbish, but I'm always open to improvement :)
17:02	JanxSpirit	mostly I meant a single curly brace on a line hardly counts
17:02	dnolen	JanxSpirit: https://gist.github.com/1649812 if you want to see an answer
17:03	dnolen	in Clojure
17:04	JanxSpirit	that's cool - gonna have to read that one over a few times ;)
17:06	JanxSpirit	what is (when (seq s) ?
17:06	Raynes	&(seq [1 2 3])
17:06	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
17:06	Raynes	&(seq [])
17:06	lazybot	⇒ nil
17:07	Raynes	JanxSpirit: It's a clever way to check whether or not a collection is empty.
17:07	JanxSpirit	OK
17:07	Raynes	(when (seq s) ..) = when s has elements, do this stuff
17:09	JanxSpirit	cool - I think I get the rest of it...the let syntax with square brackets is a bit confusing
17:11	TimMc	~guards
17:11	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
17:12	amalloy	TimMc: naw, people complaining about [] instead of () is a change for the better
17:12	TimMc	JanxSpirit: THat's destructuring.
17:12	technomancy	usually it's CL folks complaining about brackets though
17:13	llasram	Literal maps and vectors are so brilliant, man
17:13	technomancy	yeah, associative data structures in elisp are worthless
17:13	technomancy	plus their vector syntax implicitly quotes everything inside
17:13	TimMc	ew
17:15	_carlos_	what is a relevant difference between "ns" and "in-ns"?
17:15	ibdknox	ns refers clojure.core
17:16	ibdknox	I don't think in-ns does
17:16	amalloy	also ns is a macro that handles require/use, etc
17:16	technomancy	in-ns is lower-level
17:17	TimMc	in-ns doesn't do any refers, requires, etc.
17:17	amalloy	technomancy: it's not so much implicit quoting as "dude this is a literal", right? the same as (quote (a b c)) implicitly quotes a, b, and c
17:18	technomancy	nothing implicit about that =)
17:18	amalloy	clojure's [] {} aren't exactly literals in the same sense that, say, "string" is a string literal
17:18	technomancy	?
17:18	llasram	How so not?
17:19	technomancy	they're compound and strings are scalar
17:20	_carlos_	so basically I can use "ns" in place of "in-ns"
17:21	amalloy	it's been a while since my compilers/languages courses, but my understanding is a "literal" syntactically is a fixed value, as opposed to being something with pluggable "slots" like the [] syntax
17:21	technomancy	_carlos_: basically: never call in-ns directly in a file. it's ok to use at the repl
17:21	llasram	Ah, ok. What's a better word for "data type emitted by the reader"?
17:22	amalloy	ie, [a b c] is a vector literal containing the three symbols a, b, and c. but if you're using it to represent some other vector with three values, referring to locals a, b, and c at runtime, then it's not really a literal
17:22	technomancy	amalloy: suspect that definition was rooted in a language without a clear read/eval distinction
17:22	_carlos_	technomancy: thank you
17:23	technomancy	sure
17:23	amalloy	like, would anyone say that java's array syntax is literals? new String[] {"foo", myLocal};?
17:24	brodyberg	no
17:24	Somelauw	Does that work?
17:25	amalloy	how is that different from ["foo", my-local]? surely the "new String[]" doesn't somehow make it not be a literal
17:25	amalloy	Somelauw: yes
17:26	brodyberg	new String[] { ... } means "make a new string array with these contents. A literal on the other hand immediately is the array of strings.
17:27	amalloy	i'm totally unconvinced by that. (defn foo [x] ["foo" x]) constructs a new vector every time foo is called
17:27	technomancy	amalloy: are you sure?
17:28	TimMc	has to
17:28	amalloy	yes
17:28	hiredman	it has to
17:28	technomancy	oh, I didn't see the x
17:28	technomancy	in the vector
17:28	amalloy	technomancy: even (defn foo [x] [:foo :bar]) does, though
17:28	amalloy	doesn't have to, but it does
17:28	technomancy	hm; ok
17:29	amalloy	i tried to write a macro that would convert that to (let [v [:foo :bar]] (defn foo [x] v)), but it's really hard :P
17:29	cemerick	,(letfn [(f [] [:a :b])] (identical? (f) (f)))
17:29	clojurebot	true
17:29	technomancy	oh snap!
17:30	TimMc	&(apply identical? (map (constantly [:foo]) (range 2)))
17:30	lazybot	⇒ true
17:30	cemerick	lawyered
17:30	amalloy	huh! maybe that changed in 1.3? or my tests were totally rubbish
17:30	TimMc	Ah. beat me to it.
17:30	amalloy	TimMc: well, yours is totally different
17:30	dnolen	I dunno, literals are literals. I believe optimizable literals like '() and [] are called constant literals in the compiler.
17:31	TimMc	amalloy: I don't see how.
17:31	amalloy	TimMc: (constantly (x)) is (let [ret (x)] (fn [& args] ret)). totally different from (fn [& args] (x))
17:32	cemerick	dnolen: I think amalloy is saying that the vector in (eval '[a]) isn't a literal (assuming there's an `a` in scope).
17:34	TimMc	amalloy: Where let is in this case a lambda. I see.
17:34	amalloy	i'm only really arguing this point because technomancy was complaining that elisp's vector literals can only contain constants
17:34	pjstadig	amalloy: seems do have changed from 1.2->1.3 according to my tests
17:35	amalloy	thanks pjstadig. glad to hear i'm not an idiot
17:35	pjstadig	i understand where you're coming from
17:35	pjstadig	but maybe it's the difference between a constant and a literal
17:35	pjstadig	or a constant literal like dnolen said
17:36	_carlos_	are all deprecated forms from clojure.core API tagged as so?
17:36	pjstadig	you'd expect a literal to be written to the compiled file and read in verbatim or something
17:36	pjstadig	like a constant pool or whatever
17:36	cemerick	AFAICT, literals are always literals, but if there's symbols in them, they may not evaluate to themselves.
17:38	pjstadig	_carlos_: i'm not sure there are any deprecated forms
17:38	pjstadig	though anything marked "alpha" may get yanked
17:39	cemerick	_carlos_: anything struct-related is deprecated by records, even if not marked
17:39	cemerick	pjstadig: there's add-classpath, anyway
17:39	pjstadig	true
17:40	_carlos_	is :gen-class used inside (ns ... (:gen-class) nowadays?
17:43	TimMc	pjstadig: Things marked alpha: promise, all transient stuff, juxt, deftype, add-watch
17:43	ibdknox	if they remove juxt, I bet amalloy would just quite clojure on the spot.
17:43	pjstadig	TimMc: I'm just repeating what Rich said at the Conj
17:43	TimMc	yeah
17:43	TimMc	ibdknox: RAGEQUIT
17:43	ibdknox	quit*
17:43	pjstadig	you can define your own
17:43	ibdknox	TimMc, srsly
17:44	amalloy	didn't that lose its alpha designation in 1.3?
17:44	TimMc	pjstadig: I can't see some of these being changed at this point.
17:44	amalloy	yes, it did
17:44	TimMc	amalloy: Oops, that was in my 1.2 repl.
17:44	technomancy	I could see transients going away in favour of pods
17:44	hiredman	also chunks
17:44	cemerick	please yes re: transients
17:44	technomancy	are chunks even documented though?
17:44	technomancy	cemerick: but I have such a good blog post for those. =(
17:45	cemerick	technomancy: feh. Writing about them was hell IMO.
17:45	cemerick	publish now so the post has some half-life before being obsoleted. :-P
17:46	technomancy	oh, I posted it like a year ago; it's cool. =)
17:46	technomancy	http://technomancy.us/132
17:46	cemerick	nm then :-)
17:46	technomancy	two years ago
17:46	cemerick	oh, THAT
17:46	technomancy	haha
17:46	technomancy	transients are valuable because they help explain persistents
17:47	pjstadig	deftype and defrecord are Alpha in 1.2
17:47	pjstadig	er 1.3
17:47	ibdknox	I've been bad and haven't blogged in forever
17:47	technomancy	without the darkness we would not appreciate the light.
17:47	ibdknox	need to get back on that
17:47	pjstadig	as are watches on refs
17:47	technomancy	relevant: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2047
17:49	pjstadig	,(find-doc "Alpha")
17:49	clojurebot	-------------------------
17:49	clojurebot	clojure.core/add-watch
17:49	clojurebot	([reference key fn])
17:49	clojurebot	Alpha - subject to change.
17:49	clojurebot	Adds a watch function to an agent/atom/var/ref reference. The watch
17:49	clojurebot	fn must be a fn of 4 args: a key, the reference, its old-state, its
17:49	clojurebot	new-state. Whenever the reference's state might have been changed,
17:49	clojurebot	any registered watches will have their functions called. The watch fn
17:49	clojurebot	will be called syn...
17:51	TimMc	pjstadig: Yeah, the only thing I was wrong about was juxt.
17:51	cemerick	technomancy: problem with that is that watching baseball is the perfect background for enjoying a beverage.
17:51	TimMc	and a good thing, that
17:52	technomancy	I dunno; you could say the same of an aquarium or roaring fire.
17:53	TimMc	Gonna say... no.
17:53	TimMc	But then, I'm not a sports person.
17:54	llasram	Speaking of things for which more documentation might be nice, is there a good description of the core interfaces anywhere? I needed to implement a seq-able deftype the other day, and found several decent examples, but little real explanation
17:54	hiredman	at one point the ceo of sonian asked technomancy something like "how about those seahawks?" and technomancy said "I don't play pokemon"
17:54	dakrone	hiredman: best moment of that entire meetup
17:54	TimMc	My response is "I don't follow soccer", and hope they weeren't talking about a soccer team. But I'm going to steal that one...
17:55	hiredman	it was pretty coode
17:55	technomancy	hiredman: three seconds later I realized he was the CEO.
17:55	hiredman	good
17:55	amalloy	http://xkcd.com/178/ for reference
17:55	pjstadig	and that was technomancy's last day
17:55	TimMc	ah!
17:55	technomancy	haha
18:04	cemerick	hiredman: that's a gem
18:05	dnolen	llasram: you generally have to goto the source
18:07	llasram	dnolen: I did do that, but it's difficult to tell what's necessarily the right/best way to do things. There are quite a few fine-grained interfaces, and it's not clear to me what the intent of all of them is
18:08	dnolen	llasram: then ask away.
18:12	cemerick	llasram: http://www.clojureatlas.com can sometimes help; I need to do some work to add decent descriptions to all of the key interfaces you'd want to implement, but it's perhaps a useful thing to get a handle on how they relate to each other
18:13	llasram	dnolen: Ok, fair enough :-). Let me see... What are the differing intents for ILookup vs Associative ?
18:14	TimMc	Intent is in the eye of the beholder, since javadoc is entirely neglected by core.
18:15	llasram	ISeq vs. Sequable ?
18:15	dnolen	llasram: Associative is anything that implements entryAt and assoc. ILookup needs to implement valAt
18:15	dnolen	llasram: Seqable is something that can be coerced into an ISeq
18:17	llasram	I see. So implement ISeq if you need fine-grained control over iteration, and Seqable if you can just e.g. use lazy-seq?
18:17	dnolen	llasram: no if something satisfies ISeq it can be used as a sequence in Clojure.
18:17	arohner	are there any cron-like libraries for clojure worth recommending?
18:18	llasram	dnolen: sorry, s,iteration,enumeration,? How Clojure will actually walk the sequence being provided
18:19	dnolen	llasram: you control that by implementing ISeq
18:19	llasram	Right
18:20	hiredman	if you implement ISeq you are a seq, if you implement Seqable you can supply a seq if asked for one
18:21	llasram	That makes sense.
18:23	llasram	Another question: why does IPersistentSet/get return a value used as the return of set lookup (in RT/get etc IIRC)? Is it valid to for lookup in a set to return some other object entirely?
18:24	amalloy	&(#{'(1 2)} [1 2])
18:24	lazybot	⇒ (1 2)
18:24	technomancy	if you return a different value, you're probably an Assoc rather than a Set
18:24	llasram	Ahhhhhh, because equality != identity, got it
18:24	llasram	Ok, this has been very helpful. Thank you, dnolen :-)
18:25	dnolen	np
18:28	dnolen	it's interesting that CLJS only defines 26 protocols
18:29	dnolen	make that 25
18:30	AimHere	One for every letter of the alphabet
18:33	llasram	Except poor, forgotten '
18:44	llasram	Oh, right, that's what I'd been implementing. Was looking at totally the wrong thing -- no wonder had a hard time recalling issues. Was this: https://github.com/llasram/playground.clj/blob/master/src/playground/util.clj#L267
18:44	llasram	Idea is a set of things, but lookups map to a sequence of all the parents of the lookup key
18:45	llasram	Looks to me like I must have largely settled on the correct behaviors
19:05	frankvilhelmsen	msg
19:07	dyba	hey everyone, I'm having trouble implementing a factorial function
19:07	dyba	I'm coming from a Ruby background, so I have some brain rewiring to do
19:08	dyba	I attempted to use a loop that kept track of two variables n and result
19:08	dyba	let me get a gist link first
19:11	dyba	https://gist.github.com/1650384 - Clojure Koans - Recursion.clj
19:12	dyba	I got it to work in Ruby, but I'm having trouble making the translation to Clojure
19:13	dyba	i understand that using recur rebinds the variables you use in a loop
19:14	dyba	since everything is immutable in clojure, i thought this would be one approach to decrement n and calculate the result, making sure to keep track of both
19:14	dyba	but i realized that recur doesn't return anything
19:14	dyba	so my result will always be 1... not good
19:15	technomancy	you need another termination condition
19:15	dyba	then i thought back to using cond as I had tried out in common lisp
19:16	dyba	technomancy: would that be a third parameter in recur?
19:16	amalloy	haha, i like the "working so far" approach. "I've only tried it for inputs 0 and 1, and it works!"
19:16	dyba	amalloy: :)
19:17	technomancy	dyba: another if
19:17	dyba	this problem is a cinch in ruby
19:17	amalloy	technomancy: he doesn't need any more conditions, just a better result when he terminates
19:17	technomancy	heh; sure, if you know ruby
19:17	llasram	dyba: It's a cinch in Clojure too :-)
19:17	amalloy	dyba: you imply that this is like, an open problem in clojure. nobody's figured out how to do it
19:18	dyba	llasram: i bet it is, but I'm at the lowest productive point right now. Barrier to entry to Clojure is high
19:18	amalloy	dyba: just change the "then" part of the if, to return result instead of 1. done
19:19	amalloy	&(apply * (range 1 6)) ;; a simpler approach to 5!, for what that's worth
19:19	lazybot	⇒ 120
19:20	technomancy	,((comp (partial apply *) (partial range 1) inc) 5)
19:20	clojurebot	120
19:20	technomancy	way simpler, come on now.
19:20	dyba	i forgot about ranges!
19:21	technomancy	actually you don't need to partial range
19:22	technomancy	,((comp (partial apply *) rest range inc) 5)
19:22	clojurebot	120
19:22	technomancy	try porting that to ruby =)
19:22	dyba	amalloy: just read the part you mentioned about changing "then", yah, I see that now
19:22	TimMc	Are you avoiding ->> for a reason?
19:23	technomancy	TimMc: it's not as ridiculous?
19:24	technomancy	I guess now that plain defs can have docstrings that's one objection to point-free-mania that no longer stands
19:24	technomancy	you still miss out on arglists, but most point-free stuff takes a single arg anyway
19:26	dyba	looks like i got stuck in an infinite loop when i put the recur outside the if
19:28	amalloy	technomancy: not sure i agree with that; it'd be nice to (def find-first (comp first filter))
19:28	amalloy	and similar things like that
19:29	technomancy	yeah, I guess so
19:29	technomancy	I wish meta-on-fns were taken more seriously
19:30	technomancy	no reason comp and partial couldn't preserve arglists
19:30	amalloy	yeah, that's a good point
19:31	technomancy	what was the reasoning behind that anyway? saving space on android or something?
19:31	clj_newb	why can't I (:import (java.awt.geom.Rectangle2D Float)) ?
19:31	clj_newb	I wnat to create an object of type Rectangle2D::Float
19:32	llasram	clj_newb: Inner classes are a lie
19:33	llasram	(import '[java.awt.geom Rectangle2D$Float])
19:33	clj_newb	llasram: how do use them in Clojure?
19:33	clj_newb	Rectangle2D$Float. <-- unable to resolve clas name
19:35	llasram	Oh?
19:35	clj_newb	llasram: I had a typo
19:35	clj_newb	fixed now. thanks
19:35	llasram	np
19:44	wjlroe	I'm having problems using read-line - it seems to not return (running with `lein run`) - with this code: https://gist.github.com/1650490
19:45	technomancy	wjlroe: try "lein trampoline run"
19:45	technomancy	(known issue)
19:45	wjlroe	ah ha
19:46	wjlroe	technomancy: thanks! that works - so why is that?
19:46	technomancy	wjlroe: java doesn't let you access stdin from subprocesses
19:47	technomancy	trampoline works around this by not using subprocesses
19:47	technomancy	it's dumb
19:47	technomancy	but it's what you gotta do
19:47	wjlroe	ok
19:48	wjlroe	technomancy: so would there be a way to set that in the args passed to :main in the project.clj - just to cut down on the command line stuff?
19:48	JohnnyL	have any of you used concurrency structures on a multicorein Clojure?
19:49	technomancy	wjlroe: no, lein run will always use a subprocess
19:49	technomancy	but if you use an uberjar it won't be a problem
19:50	technomancy	well, lein run might not use a subprocess in lein2
19:50	technomancy	but I don't see it changing in lein1
19:50	dgrnbrg	How am I supposed to debug protocols in a repl if the I keep getting compiler errors that the class has already been defined (but now I want to change it)?
19:51	dgrnbrg	JohnnyL, I know a thing or twoo
19:53	dgrnbrg	technomancy, what workflow do you use?
19:54	muhoo	interactive development is very helpful in dealing with protocols. you can query a server, see what it returns, etc.
19:54	dgrnbrg	muhoo, Protocols are a feature of clojure
19:54	dgrnbrg	sort of like types
19:54	muhoo	ah
19:54	technomancy	dgrnbrg: multimethods and defns
19:55	technomancy	I have never encountered a polymorphism problem for which dispatch was a performance bottleneck
19:55	dgrnbrg	interesting
19:55	dgrnbrg	I'm writing an embedded language in clojure
19:56	dgrnbrg	I am using protocols to help gather the interfaces various concepts in the language
19:56	technomancy	I was about to say, the main driving use case for protocols are for writing clojure-in-clojure.
19:56	dgrnbrg	i wish there was a dynamic attribute to the protocols
19:56	dgrnbrg	or a global flag
19:56	technomancy	but writing lower-level code forces you to make certain compromises
19:57	wjlroe	technomancy: what I mean is, instead of controlling this JVM trampoline using the command line "lein trampoline run", pop that in the project.clj file so you don't have to remember the special case. So maybe a key in the project like :trampoline-run true ?
19:57	technomancy	hm; you could add a hook to do that
19:57	JohnnyL	dgrnbrg: have you had it chugging away on long running processes utilizing all cores?
19:58	wjlroe	technomancy: ok, I'll have a look, see what I can hack
19:58	technomancy	wjlroe: I'd rather not add something to lein1 since I think lein2 might have a cleaner solution with in-process classloaders
19:58	wjlroe	technomancy: well if it can be done with a hook - then that's the way to do it
19:58	dgrnbrg	JohnnyL, not extensively
19:58	dgrnbrg	but i do know how it works
19:58	JohnnyL	i tried the parallel libs for python. It appears to divy up the processing smothly across all cores.
19:59	dgrnbrg	JohnnyL, taht's a very abstract description of your problem
19:59	technomancy	JohnnyL: are you talking about concurrency or parallelism?
19:59	clj_newb	crap; does java/clojure have the concept of friendship?
19:59	JohnnyL	technomancy: what does clojure support?
19:59	technomancy	concurrency is trivial in Clojure. parallelism depends a lot on the kinds of work you want to do and the shape of your data.
20:00	clj_newb	i.e. I need to define X to be a [proxy Foo], yet have acess to the protected members of [Dog]
20:00	clj_newb	damn it, so protected = accessible in package, but not owrld
20:01	clj_newb	but my proxy objects are NOT defined in the original apckage
20:01	dgrnbrg	technomancy, are you sharp w/ macros?
20:01	clj_newb	hmm, what is the right way to do this, to make this protected members public?
20:01	clj_newb	this seems very dirty
20:01	clj_newb	alternatively, can I define d aproxy to be in a different package?
20:01	dgrnbrg	I have a macro that gets a symbol as an argument, but I want to invoke a namespace-qualified version of that symbol
20:01	hiredman	JohnnyL: how does python deal with parallelism given the gil?
20:01	clj_newb	(a package that is in java land, not clojure land, even)
20:01	technomancy	dgrnbrg: I guess?
20:02	technomancy	dgrnbrg: maybe ns-resolve
20:02	technomancy	,(doc ns-resolve)
20:02	clojurebot	"([ns sym] [ns env sym]); Returns the var or Class to which a symbol will be resolved in the namespace (unless found in the environement), else nil. Note that if the symbol is fully qualified, the var/Class to which it resolves need not be present in the namespace."
20:03	dgrnbrg	that seems like it doesn't fit my use case
20:03	dgrnbrg	I'm defining a multimethod version of +
20:03	dgrnbrg	via a macro
20:03	dgrnbrg	but I want to specify that if the arguments are Numbers, use core's +
20:03	technomancy	you can't really know that at compile-time
20:03	dgrnbrg	but the macro is generating multimethod versions of everything
20:04	JohnnyL	hiredman: tcp/ip sockets across multiple 32 bit processes.
20:04	hiredman	JohnnyL: :\|
20:05	dgrnbrg	technomancy, this should be clearer: http://pastebin.com/9PrnbL9u
20:05	dgrnbrg	on line 12, I want it to work
20:08	dgrnbrg	nvm, ns-resolve works :)
20:10	JohnnyL	thank you gentleman.
20:13	llasram	technomancy: re: polymorphic dispatch latency; low-latency network services?
20:15	technomancy	pretty sure anything involving I/O is going to make multimethod dispatch look like a rounding error
20:17	llasram	Hmm. I think that's probably true for individual instances, but my intuition is that the latency would add up if used pervasively for fundamental interfaces
20:17	technomancy	only one way to find out
20:18	llasram	Re-implement Clojure in Clojure using multimethods?
20:18	technomancy	I didn't say it's impossible, just that I'd never worked on such a system.
20:18	technomancy	and my intuition is that the majority of Clojure users will not do so either
20:24	dyba	finally got that recursion problem in the koans to work
20:25	dyba	TIL recur doesn't eat up the stack
20:26	dnolen	is swank-clojure 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT on any major repo besides clojars?
20:32	technomancy	dnolen: are there any other major repos that would take it?
20:33	dnolen	technomancy: good to know I'm not crazy, just trying to understand how to setup/run test.benchmark, thoroughly lacking in any documentation whatsoever
20:33	technomancy	I thought most of them were restrictive about group-ids and package names
20:33	technomancy	I think stuart S pushed an early version out to maven central and tweaked the group-id, but that's the only one I'm aware of
20:34	technomancy	boo on poms that refer to artifacts without declaring where they're from =\
20:36	dnolen	technomancy: test.benchmark is clearly in a half-assed state
20:36	technomancy	this is the first I've heard of it
20:36	hiredman	shocking
20:36	hiredman	maybe should write some alioth benchmarks for it
20:37	dnolen	there are some benchmarks in there and they look good.
20:46	dgrnbrg	Is there a normal pattern for splicing a macro that takes an fntail?
20:46	dgrnbrg	since ~@ doesn't work because the parameters get ns-qualified
20:46	dgrnbrg	wait nvm I'm silly
20:47	wjlroe	Trying to add my own metadata to a function, but it's not working well: https://gist.github.com/1650711 (have to compile twice to see it and if I run normally, it's not there)?
20:48	phil	hi, is there a way to destructure a vector argument and dispatch it into a function with multiple arities?
20:48	phil	similar to haskell
20:49	dnolen	wjlroe: metadata is put onto the var not the fn
20:50	dnolen	phil: don't follow
20:50	wjlroe	dnolen: ok, so how do I do this? define a function and its metadata like that?
20:51	dnolen	wjlroe: access the metadata like this, (meta #'exit)
20:52	phil	dnolen: i mean lets say a have a fn x, i wanna be able to do the following: (x [1]) (x [1 2]) (x [1 2 3]) and then pattern match (destructure) the vector elements without having to resort to ifs or vector size tests
20:52	phil	preferably with core clojure (need this for clojurescript)
20:53	dnolen	phil: (apply x v)
20:53	phil	oh yes... and then just define x with multiple arities right?
20:54	dnolen	phil: yep
20:54	phil	perfect, thx :)
20:55	dnolen	np
21:01	dgrnbrg	I just implemented an extensible type system in clojure
21:01	dgrnbrg	:)
21:02	dgrnbrg	dnolen, is it possible to define unification for arbitrary types?
21:02	dnolen	dgrnbrg: yes
21:02	dgrnbrg	like, if I wanted to specify that int and float can be unified into floats
21:03	dgrnbrg	dnolen, I suppose I really want to have promotion-esque behavior
21:03	dnolen	dgrnbrg: just implement IUnify for that type, then you'll need to do a second dispatch
21:03	dnolen	for the second argument, default is of course to return nil, you only need to implement the second dispatch for the types you caere about.
21:03	dgrnbrg	does core.logic try unifying each of the pair of objects-to-be-unified to each other to see if either direction succeeds?
21:04	TimMc	technomancy: Yeah, the whole Maven deps system kind of weirds me out. How long is it going to be before someone uploads a malicious jar (to a different repo) masquerading as, say, Apache Commons...
21:04	dnolen	dgrnbrg: nope, you have to do both sides yourself. but again you can provide the default by extending Object
21:04	dgrnbrg	hmm
21:05	dnolen	(extend-type Float IUnifyTerms ...)
21:05	dnolen	(extend-type Ojbect IUnifyWithFloat (unify-with-float [_] nil))
21:05	dnolen	etc
21:05	dgrnbrg	I see
21:05	dgrnbrg	I think that it'll be too difficult for me to implement this right away
21:06	dgrnbrg	I'll continue mulling it over
21:06	dnolen	is the extensible type system using core.logic?
21:06	dgrnbrg	is condu the best idiom for error reporting?
21:06	dgrnbrg	yes, it is
21:06	dgrnbrg	I'm working on an hdl
21:06	dgrnbrg	i implemented a simple unifier
21:06	dnolen	dgrnbrg: there is not idiom for error reporting yet - would love to hear ideas about htat
21:06	dnolen	dgrnbrg: hdl?
21:06	dgrnbrg	hardware description language
21:07	dgrnbrg	(it's me again)
21:07	dgrnbrg	but now, I can talk about it!
21:07	dnolen	dgrnbrg: oh yeah, cool!
21:07	dgrnbrg	oooooohhhhhhh
21:07	dgrnbrg	You could do error reporting by combining the core.logic monad with a list monad
21:08	dgrnbrg	and adding errors to the list if they occur
21:08	dgrnbrg	as a goal that always succeeds and adds the error to the error-list
21:08	dgrnbrg	then again...
21:09	dgrnbrg	I think errors can't be pure logic and have a nice api and be not too hard to implement
21:09	dgrnbrg	I like the idea of using condu as an an "else error" block
21:09	flazz	anyone get indenting to properly work on textmate2 beta?
21:09	dgrnbrg	and appendo the error to an error variable you pass around
21:10	dnolen	dgrnbrg: I think there's a bit of literature out there about this stuff, I haven't looked to closely
21:11	dgrnbrg	dnolen, I tend to improvise :)
21:11	dnolen	dgrnbrg: I recall seeing interesting things when I was investigating implementing Definite Clause Grammars - the Prolog NLP people were interested in this kind of thing if I call.
21:11	dgrnbrg	but not always
21:11	dnolen	recall
22:28	muhoo	does clojurescript work with multimethods?
23:04	technomancy	TimMc: lein gives maven central precedence over clojars, so that helps
23:04	technomancy	but we still need signing
23:07	metajack	My emacs mode lines are getting complicated for some reason. [[[[(Clojure Slime[clojure] Paredit yas)]]]]. Why all the brackets?
23:07	metajack	My repl buffer is similar
23:10	muhoo	is tehre anything for clojure that will parse an html file, kind of like hiccup in reverse?
23:11	muhoo	hmm, i suppose i could use the apache java libraries for that, nm
23:11	metajack	muhoo: I'm using enlive for that. works really well
23:11	metajack	there are also a few clojure wrappers of popular java libs for that as well
23:11	brehaut	enlive is a very good choice
23:11	muhoo	thanks
23:13	oakwise	emacs/clojure-mode newb question: is there a way to get emacs to color :require'd/:use'd funcs and macros? e.g. defhtml from hiccup
23:13	brehaut	muhoo: theres a good tutorial on the github wiki, and the readme (i think) links to dnolans introduction as well.
23:14	brehaut	oakwise: i dont know if clojure-mode knows how to connect to slime for its coloring, but generally speaking colorising lisps is quite difficult
23:15	oakwise	brehaut: darn, thanks
23:15	brehaut	oakwise: if you cant inspect a running enviroment to find out about the macros that are provided you have to run on guess work and heuristics
23:15	oakwise	it's so much prettier on http://webnoir.org/ :)
23:15	oakwise	right
23:15	brehaut	thats because chris busts his gut to make his documentation good
23:16	oakwise	seems so
23:16	brehaut	huh. it appears hes using gist
23:16	oakwise	which uses pygments I think?
23:17	brehaut	yeah
23:17	brehaut	i know that amalloy has done some work on the pygments brush
23:18	metajack	Hmm. I seem to have gotten CDT into a state it can't get out of :(
23:19	oakwise	looks like it's highlighting anything non-quoted in the calling position of a list regardless of imports
23:24	jeremyheiler	Are there any useful libs for socket io, or is it all java interop right now?
23:25	metajack	There's aleph
23:28	jeremyheiler	metajack: looks interesting. not sure i want to depend on netty for this project, though.
23:29	jeremyheiler	metajack: thanks
23:29	metajack	I ran across a few things that were protocol specific (eg. websockets) that didn't use netty, but aleph seemed to be the best out there.
23:30	metajack	I think part of the issue is that the Java interop is so good people don't make it to the clojure wrappers often :)
23:31	technomancy	oakwise: I think slime has something for that, but it's only wired up for CL
23:32	brehaut	yay slime :(
23:32	brehaut	i for one welcome our new nrepl overlords
23:33	oakwise	technomancy: as long as I'm not the only one with non-pretty top-levels, I'm happy I guess :)
23:35	brehaut	oakwise: be thankful you arent a textmate using clojure programmer :P
23:37	jeremyheiler	metajack: yeah, good point. ideally, though, clojure core could abstract socket io a bit so it's less platform specific in library code.
23:37	oakwise	heh indeed
23:48	jeremyheiler	I wonder why clojure.contrib.server-socket was never promoted out of contrib.
23:48	brehaut	jeremyheiler: because nobody offered to do so?
23:51	jeremyheiler	brehaut: really? i figured there might have been some other reason.
23:52	brehaut	may well be? but i dont think any libraries got promoted unless someone was willing to commit to taking them on?
23:54	jeremyheiler	yeah, makes sense. maybe i'll play around with it and see if it can/should be salvaged.
23:56	brehaut	jeremyheiler: you could always track down Craig McDaniel and ask him about it? (at least, hes the listed author in the code)