2012-01-18
| 00:03 | amalloy | espringe: i don't use paredit in the repl, and i don't know if i recommend it |
| 00:04 | amalloy | if your input is always a valid s-expression, the repl will have a tough time knowing whether RET means "i'm done, eval it" or "insert a newline, i'm editing" |
| 00:05 | espringe | Yeah, i noticed the RET was a bid dodgy :( |
| 00:05 | espringe | It seemed like a good idea at the time though |
| 00:10 | dyba | working through the clojure koans and looking to see if anyone can give me a nudge in the right direction. |
| 00:10 | dyba | the topic is recursion: https://gist.github.com/1618486 |
| 00:11 | dyba | i've got the first meditation passing, but the second one fails |
| 00:11 | adiabatic | Seems like a weird problem to use recursion for… |
| 00:12 | Raynes | Not really. You can use mutual recursion to implement even? and odd?. It's pretty cool, if slightly insane. |
| 00:12 | dyba | adiabatic: i don't know why they use = |
| 00:12 | dyba | I've done a similar problem but not using = |
| 00:13 | dyba | Raynes: mutual recursion? I'll have to look that up. |
| 00:13 | adiabatic | dyba: f calls g which calls f which calls g which calls… |
| 00:14 | Raynes | a psychiatrist. |
| 00:14 | Raynes | dyba: But you can't look it up on wikipedia!!!1! |
| 00:14 | Raynes | (unless you disable Javascript) |
| 00:14 | dyba | Raynes: haha, no I'm reading a book called Clojure in Action |
| 00:14 | airolson | yeah, I'm disappointed with wikipedia's "black-out" |
| 00:15 | Raynes | airolson: There was a bug in the first few minutes where clicking on the 'learn more' link would take you to another blacked out page. |
| 00:15 | dyba | airolson: that's going on today? I thought they were starting tomorrow |
| 00:15 | Raynes | It was pretty hilarious. |
| 00:15 | Raynes | dyba: From 17 minutes ago until this time tomorrow. |
| 00:15 | amalloy | dyba: it's tomorrow now |
| 00:16 | amalloy | if you're on the US east coast |
| 00:16 | dyba | amalloy: west coast |
| 00:16 | Raynes | amalloy: His timezone is the only one that matters. |
| 00:16 | Raynes | Obviously. |
| 00:16 | amalloy | evidently |
| 00:16 | dyba | :P |
| 00:16 | Raynes | Oh man. We better call wikipedia. dyba is on the west coast, they need to wait two hours! |
| 00:16 | dyba | har har |
| 00:17 | Raynes | :) |
| 00:17 | airolson | goodnight folks |
| 00:17 | dyba | g'nite |
| 00:17 | Raynes | Goodnight, kind sir. |
| 00:17 | amalloy | don't let Raynes offend you. he doesn't even know how many hours are between EST and PST |
| 00:17 | Raynes | amalloy: Three. |
| 00:17 | dyba | Raynes: see ya! Thanks for the lead |
| 00:17 | dyba | it's all in good fun |
| 00:17 | Raynes | amalloy: I counted backwards relative to my timezone. |
| 00:18 | Raynes | dyba: I wasn't trying to encourage you to use mutual recursion. That's rarely (never?) the optimal way to solve a problem. |
| 00:18 | Raynes | I was just pointing out that it is possible. |
| 00:19 | dyba | Raynes: well, I was going to see what it's all about anyway |
| 00:19 | Raynes | Yeah, it's pretty cool in any case. |
| 00:21 | dyba | the problem would make sense if you were checking for modulo 2, that's how I would do it |
| 00:22 | dyba | n mod 2 equals 0 that is |
| 00:22 | adiabatic | ok good, I'm not the only sane one here |
| 00:22 | amalloy | that's...the same as testing even-ness, right? |
| 00:23 | dyba | the entire time it will decrement n! weird... |
| 00:36 | espringe | Looking at someone elses code, I see he has: |
| 00:36 | espringe | (fn [n] (map first (reductions (fn [[a b] _] ...... |
| 00:36 | espringe | What does the _ mean? |
| 00:37 | dnolen | espringe: an ignored argument |
| 00:37 | espringe | Ah, thanks |
| 00:37 | espringe | Is that a convention, or a language feature? |
| 00:37 | amalloy | convention |
| 00:37 | amalloy | but it's easy for you to prove that yourself :P |
| 00:37 | dnolen | ,((fn [_] _) 1) |
| 00:38 | clojurebot | 1 |
| 00:38 | amalloy | &((fn [x _] (+ x _)) 1 2) |
| 00:38 | lazybot | ⇒ 3 |
| 00:38 | espringe | Thanks :) |
| 00:39 | espringe | ,((fn [_ _ _] _) 1 2 3 |
| 00:39 | clojurebot | #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading> |
| 00:39 | dnolen | ,((fn [_ _ _] _) 1 2 3) |
| 00:39 | clojurebot | 3 |
| 00:39 | espringe | ,((fn [_ _ _] _) 1 2 3) |
| 00:39 | clojurebot | 3 |
| 00:39 | dnolen | ,((fn [a a a] a) 1 2 3) |
| 00:39 | clojurebot | 3 |
| 00:43 | dyba | only save the last value it looks like |
| 01:51 | seancorf | i'm playing with clojurescript... are there some basic dom manipulation functions available in the base installation? |
| 01:52 | seancorf | i.e., are there some bundled namespaces i can just require? |
| 01:52 | scottj | maybe under clojure.browser, I think domina is what cljs1 is recommending though |
| 01:53 | seancorf | guess i need to go dig in the cljs docs then... |
| 01:55 | chewbranca | anyone have any recommendations for processing posted json data in noir? |
| 02:02 | seancorf | scottj: clojure.browser.dom has a few things i need but not all - domina does look more useful but it's not clear to me how to use it separate from clojurescript one |
| 02:04 | seancorf | i haven't figured out the way libraries are handled in cljs :( |
| 03:38 | Blkt | good morning everyone |
| 03:39 | ordnungswidrig | hi |
| 05:07 | cromie | hello |
| 05:07 | cromie | what is -> macro called? |
| 05:07 | arbscht | thread |
| 05:07 | cromie | I'm trying to find documentation on it but it's ungoogleable |
| 05:09 | ivan | http://clojuredocs.org/search?x=0&y=0&q=-%3E |
| 05:09 | cromie | whoa didnt know there were so many -> macros |
| 05:13 | cromie | by the way is there a way to google non-alphanum characters like -> ? |
| 05:20 | ivan | cromie: no |
| 05:20 | ivan | but you can configure your browser bar to let you search more than Google via bookmark keywords |
| 05:25 | cromie | ok thanks for help |
| 10:10 | ordnungswidrig | https://gist.github.com/1633445 |
| 10:11 | ordnungswidrig | Can't you use (->RecordName) in the record declaration? |
| 10:28 | llasram | ordnungswidrig: `defrecord' creates a ->RecordName function |
| 10:28 | llasram | So ->FooImpl should exist, not ->Foo |
| 10:29 | llasram | But wait. What are you trying to do? |
| 10:29 | ordnungswidrig | llasram: yes, but only after deftyping, thus when giving a protocol implementation within the defrecord the function bodies cannot access ->Foo yet |
| 10:29 | llasram | There is no ->Foo |
| 10:29 | ordnungswidrig | llasram: ah, sorry. the paste is wrong |
| 10:30 | TimMc | That'll do it. |
| 10:30 | llasram | And... The `foo' implementation for FooImpl will only be called if `foo' is called with a FooImpl type object |
| 10:30 | ordnungswidrig | no, ->FooImpl is not yet defined. |
| 10:30 | ordnungswidrig | trie the updated gist |
| 10:30 | ordnungswidrig | s/ie /y / |
| 10:31 | llasram | Interesting. That is potentially confusing. |
| 10:32 | ordnungswidrig | llasram: you can fall back to (new FooImpl) or (FooImpl.) of course. that works fine. |
| 10:32 | llasram | Right |
| 10:32 | llasram | Or use `extend-protocol' or `extend-type' |
| 10:32 | ordnungswidrig | llasram: I guess reordering the expression generated by defrecord would be sufficient. |
| 10:33 | jkkramer | ordnungswidrig: or (declare ->FooImpl) above deftype perhaps? |
| 10:33 | ordnungswidrig | jkkramer: or like that |
| 10:34 | llasram | Ah, or have `defrecord' do that (`declare' the constructors). I don't think you can implement constructors before creating the type -- chicken and egg there |
| 10:34 | llasram | But `declare' should work around it |
| 10:34 | ordnungswidrig | jkkramer: not trivial though after having looked into core_deftype.clj |
| 10:44 | solussd | does anyone know how to add a path, at runtime, to jna.library.path (i.e. not replace the default system path, but add a second) |
| 10:46 | llasram | solussd: System/setProperty ? |
| 10:47 | solussd | llasram: that seems to replace whatever is already there. :/ |
| 10:47 | TimMc | I don't know if you *can* adjust PATH in a running JVM. |
| 10:47 | llasram | System/getProperty + System/setProperty :-) |
| 10:48 | llasram | I've used System/setProperty to successfully modify the jna.library.path after the JVM starts but before loading JNA |
| 10:48 | TimMc | OK, cool. |
| 10:48 | llasram | After JNA fails to find a library once though, you may be screwed |
| 10:57 | solussd | cool, thanks guys |
| 11:04 | arkh | how would a person turn off syntax highlighting in clojure-mode / emacs? |
| 11:06 | llasram | Turn... off? |
| 11:06 | llasram | Do you still want to be using clojure-mode, just without syntax highlighting? |
| 11:06 | Raynes | Mind blown. |
| 11:07 | llasram | If that's the case, try M-x font-lock-mode |
| 11:07 | arkh | I would still like to use clojure-mode and have the ability to turn coloring on/off |
| 11:08 | arkh | llasram: that does the trick, thank you |
| 11:09 | Licenser | I wonder about this code: https://refheap.com/paste/343 |
| 11:09 | Licenser | the algoritm is not the best (I know) it was just a quick example for someone entirely new for programming but I am really surprised pmap actually shows the whole thing down |
| 11:10 | Licenser | yes Raynes I use refheap only for you :P |
| 11:10 | Raynes | Heh |
| 11:11 | Licenser | even so I would have expected more from you :P |
| 11:11 | Licenser | you seriousely disappointed me :.( |
| 11:12 | Licenser | I was so thrilled about what you made when you were making us all excited and then it is a pastbin :P I was looking for something like 'hey I found a way to calculate prime numbers in constant time' |
| 11:13 | Raynes | Hahaha |
| 11:13 | Raynes | But it's such a nice pastebin. :p |
| 11:13 | Licenser | also is that your reptile that supports refheap? |
| 11:13 | Licenser | yes it is |
| 11:13 | Licenser | but it is 'just' a pastbin |
| 11:13 | Licenser | been there, done that |
| 11:13 | Licenser | I'd hoped for something revolutionary |
| 11:13 | Licenser | also is there a emacs integration :P |
| 11:13 | TimMc | Iguana! |
| 11:13 | Licenser | exactly |
| 11:13 | TimMc | There's an iguana! |
| 11:13 | TimMc | <3 Raynes |
| 11:14 | Raynes | One of my coworkers is an animal shelter guy. |
| 11:14 | Licenser | that makes it kind of revolutionary so |
| 11:14 | Raynes | That's his picture. |
| 11:14 | TimMc | Oh, you don't have an iguana? |
| 11:14 | Raynes | No. |
| 11:14 | TimMc | /shun |
| 11:14 | Raynes | I wanted to replace it with a picture of stuartsierra's hair, but I was worried about licensing. |
| 11:15 | stuartsierra | oh? :) |
| 11:15 | Licenser | haha |
| 11:15 | qmx | ROFL |
| 11:15 | Licenser | stuartsierra does your hair look like an iguana? |
| 11:15 | Raynes | TimMc: That used to say "… and the cries of children the world over.". Alex decided that was too depressing and put the Iguana picture link there. |
| 11:15 | stuartsierra | I am not qualified to answer that query. |
| 11:16 | Licenser | Raynes a few unique features would be: show past as .pdf, .png for example |
| 11:17 | Licenser | that'd kind of be nice |
| 11:17 | Licenser | I think |
| 11:17 | Raynes | Screenshot the pastebox. :P |
| 11:17 | Licenser | Raynes that is not a feature that is work |
| 11:17 | Licenser | work for me, which makes it even worst |
| 11:18 | Licenser | admit taht being able to say https://refheap.com/paste/343.png would be cool |
| 11:18 | Raynes | Sure. |
| 11:18 | Licenser | see that'd be a unique feature |
| 11:19 | Licenser | or https://refheap.com/paste/343.pdf |
| 11:19 | Raynes | It'd be like, totally rad. dood. |
| 11:20 | Licenser | rad? |
| 11:20 | Licenser | now I must admit I am a german again :( |
| 11:20 | Raynes | Heh. |
| 11:21 | cemerick | Raynes: there's gotta be a catch with this browserid thing, yah? |
| 11:21 | Raynes | cemerick: Every time you sign in, they kill a kitten? |
| 11:21 | Licenser | can't they kill puppies again? I'd write a script to sign in and out for that |
| 11:21 | cemerick | probably |
| 11:22 | Licenser | a long time ago I got a plan, I made a catch all account for my domain now I always use something like browserid@licenser.net or whatever site I am in and, in the case I get spam from the side I just forward that email to the abuse@browserid.com address |
| 11:23 | Raynes | Well, that certainly isn't a catch. |
| 11:23 | cemerick | The actual browserid.org site is really light on details. |
| 11:24 | Raynes | cemerick: Click that 'developer' link. |
| 11:24 | Licenser | cemerick they will propably seel your browsing behaviour to google or something |
| 11:25 | Raynes | cemerick: https://github.com/mozilla/browserid/wiki shortcut |
| 11:25 | cemerick | Raynes: Yeah, I'm on it now. Looks like I need to grok this verified email protocol. |
| 11:25 | cemerick | So far, it just sounds like a centralized authentication mechanism. |
| 11:25 | Raynes | It isn't centralized. |
| 11:26 | cemerick | *sounds* :-) |
| 11:26 | cemerick | anyway, it's in the TODO tab group |
| 11:26 | Licenser | Raynes another neat feature: allow users to choose their own code layout |
| 11:28 | Licenser | perhaps stuartsierra does not like the dark dim colors but rather would prefare keywords be purple and strings bright green |
| 11:28 | Raynes | You mean highlighting themes? We plan to settle on a few themes based around a single theme. This is my first draft of a tomorrow-night-bright style color theme, but eventually you'll be able to switch between a dark theme, a light theme, a low contrast dark theme, and a high contrast dark theme. |
| 11:29 | Licenser | Raynes allow users to make their own? |
| 11:29 | TimMc | Licenser: You can do that with Stylish. |
| 11:30 | Raynes | It's a pastebin and that isn't a useful feature. It would unnecessarily complicate things by introducing more decisions. |
| 11:30 | Licenser | TimMc of cause I also can write a own dom visualisation library if I am very boored :P |
| 11:30 | Licenser | Raynes you have a point so |
| 11:30 | Licenser | TimMc sorry for the sarcask ;) |
| 11:31 | Raynes | You aren't meant to edit code on refheap -- you just paste code there for others to take a look at. If they are so terribly cross with the highlighting/theme that they can't bear to look at it for more than second, they can copy it to their editor. |
| 11:31 | Raynes | That said, this particular theme is just what I have right now. It will almost certainly change. |
| 11:32 | Licenser | Raynes I don't have any objectsions to the theme ^^ Just tossing ideas around |
| 11:33 | Licenser | also you made me look at EMACS themes, now I can't decide :P |
| 11:33 | Licenser | great |
| 11:34 | Raynes | Tomorrow Night is a fantastic set of themes. |
| 11:34 | Raynes | Highly recommended. |
| 11:34 | Raynes | I use tomorrow night in Emacs, Vim, and my terminal. |
| 11:36 | Licenser | hmm it isn't part of the standard themes, where are they hiding? |
| 11:36 | Licenser | found them :) |
| 11:40 | Licenser | hmm the background is too blue for me |
| 11:59 | mpenet | Raynes: tryclj is down in case you didn't notice. Protesting SOPA :) ? |
| 12:00 | Raynes | No, but maybe Heroku is. |
| 12:00 | Raynes | ;) |
| 12:01 | Raynes | I'll pretend that I am and that I did this purposely. |
| 12:02 | mpenet | One of my (non-coder) coworkers was using it, now I need to guide him through setting up leiningen and run a repl |
| 12:03 | Raynes | mpenet: It's back up, btw. |
| 12:03 | mpenet | Thanks |
| 12:04 | Raynes | mpenet: I'm still working on getting memory settings right. It occasionally goes down because of GC overhead issues. |
| 12:04 | Raynes | I haven't set up any sort of monitoring though. I think that'd be the most important thing I could do right now. |
| 12:04 | mpenet | Yep, it is not easy to get right |
| 12:06 | jsabeaudry | I've been profiling my trivial web app that uses aleph (thus netty) and it would seem that 65% of the CPU is used by SelectorUtil.select(). Anyone has has similar experience? |
| 12:09 | mpenet | I have some long running web apps based on aleph, cpu is almost always flat/low. ztellman is doing some work on lamina performance though |
| 12:10 | jsabeaudry | mpenet: Does any of you webapps use streaming? |
| 12:10 | mpenet | nope, lots of long polling |
| 12:11 | mpenet | well one of them (not a web app) consumes twitter streams all day long, so yes |
| 12:13 | jsabeaudry | mpenet: I don't know if consuming it is different, but with Jetty I can reach the limit of my ethernet (around 10MB/s) but with JettyI have trouble reaching 3MB/s... |
| 12:16 | jsabeaudry | Oh wow, the second JEtty is Netty |
| 12:17 | mpenet | ouch, it doesn't sound good. It is probablly worth reporting, maybe ztellman is aware of the underlying issue and can help you with that. |
| 12:17 | jsabeaudry | mpenet: Are you aware of any alternatives to aleph that I could try? |
| 12:19 | mpenet | nothing that you could use with ring handlers directly like with aleph, there are alternatives in the java world I guess |
| 12:19 | mpenet | or maybe the latest jetty, I am not sure though |
| 12:30 | jaley | hello! my company are about to use Clojure for a new project and I was wondering if anyone has advice on dealing with native libraries in leiningen? Our existing product is a native lib with a JNI wrapper already in place - we want to use it from Clojure. Any recommendations? Is there a "right way" to pull in native deps from a repository or something? |
| 12:32 | technomancy | Raynes: does the tryclj actually crash, or does it just get into a wedged state? |
| 12:33 | Raynes | technomancy: Wedged state. |
| 12:33 | technomancy | oh, bummer |
| 12:33 | technomancy | jaley: you can publish a jar with a certain directory structure that will get expanded and put on the java.library.path when deps get run. |
| 12:33 | Raynes | If it actually crashed, Heroku would fix it. |
| 12:34 | technomancy | docs are scarce, but maybe you can crib from one of the existing libs. |
| 12:34 | Licenser | there is no crashage |
| 12:34 | Raynes | technomancy: That only works after my fix, which hasn't been released yet, right? |
| 12:34 | technomancy | Raynes: the native extraction stuff? |
| 12:35 | Raynes | No, the setting library path stuff. |
| 12:35 | Raynes | You were setting java-library-path instead of java.library.path, remember? |
| 12:35 | technomancy | oh snap. |
| 12:35 | technomancy | yes, this is true. |
| 12:35 | chewbranca | anyone have any recommendations for building a json api with noir? I'm not having much luck actually getting the raw (or parsed) json data from the body of the request |
| 12:35 | jaley | technomancy: ah ok cool. is the code for that actually in lein? I'll just read the code - cheers! |
| 12:35 | Raynes | So he'll need the 1.x branch, I think. |
| 12:36 | technomancy | jaley: yeah, you will need to either use 1.7.0-SNAPSHOT from git or 1.6.1 unfortunately |
| 12:37 | jaley | technomancy: ok, thanks |
| 12:37 | Raynes | technomancy: Did I fix that in lein 2? |
| 12:37 | technomancy | jaley: to find a sample from which to work you could take a look at one of these libraries at the bottom: http://p.hagelb.org/find-native.clj.html |
| 12:38 | technomancy | Raynes: yeah, we're clear in the master branch |
| 12:39 | jaley | technomancy: got it, thanks |
| 12:41 | devth | Is there something like `or` that will treat an empty list as false and take the other value? e.g. (or '() "use this!") |
| 12:41 | hiredman | you don't need to quote the empty list |
| 12:41 | hiredman | ,() |
| 12:41 | clojurebot | () |
| 12:42 | hiredman | ,(seq ()) |
| 12:42 | clojurebot | nil |
| 12:43 | devth | hiredman: perfect, thanks! |
| 12:54 | gfredericks | Okay, I've successfully switched to emacs. Now what do I need to do to stop using `lein repl`? |
| 12:55 | technomancy | gfredericks: "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.4" in the shell; M-x clojure-jack-in from an emacs buffer for any file in your project. |
| 12:55 | gfredericks | does "install clojure-mode" go at the beginning? |
| 12:56 | gfredericks | oh wait I did that already |
| 12:56 | gfredericks | okay here I go. |
| 12:57 | gfredericks | welp, it opened an emacs buffer with a backtrace in it. Says it cannot resolve the symbol 'pst' |
| 12:58 | technomancy | gfredericks: get rid of the out-of-date clj-stacktrace |
| 12:58 | gfredericks | oh 'pst-elem-str' actually |
| 12:58 | gfredericks | it must be and indirect dep of my project? |
| 12:58 | technomancy | yeah |
| 12:59 | technomancy | or put an explicit dep on the latest version |
| 13:00 | solussd | is it possible to include a c library in a jar? |
| 13:00 | gfredericks | hmm; `mvn dependency:tree` doesn't mention it |
| 13:00 | technomancy | gfredericks: it could be a dev-dependency or pulled in by another user-level plugin; maybe lein-difftest or some such |
| 13:01 | technomancy | go with the explicit dep if you can't find it; simpler that way |
| 13:01 | gfredericks | ah I do have difftest I think; no dev deps |
| 13:01 | gfredericks | okay |
| 13:03 | gfredericks | I think I figured out how to upgrade difftest, so I'll try that, since that would solve it for all projects |
| 13:05 | gfredericks | ooh I think it worked! |
| 13:07 | technomancy | woo! |
| 13:11 | clj_newb | for a hashmap where the values are known to be distinct, is there an idiomatic way to "invert" the hashmap? i.e. swap the key/values? |
| 13:13 | clj_newb | the best I have is: |
| 13:13 | jodaro | hrm |
| 13:14 | jodaro | i'm using aleph to deal with an http post request |
| 13:14 | clj_newb | (apply hash-map (concat (map (fn [x] [ (last x) (first x)]) key_map))) ; but calling it ugly would be an understatement |
| 13:14 | TimMc | clj_newb: (zipmap (vals h) (keys h)) |
| 13:16 | jodaro | anyway yeah |
| 13:16 | jodaro | if the body is small its a BigEndianHeapChannelByteBuffer or whatever |
| 13:16 | jodaro | but at some point |
| 13:16 | jodaro | if it gets bigger, it becomes a lamina channel |
| 13:17 | jodaro | i guess i can just check the type and see |
| 13:17 | jodaro | but it would be cool if there was some way to have it always be the same type |
| 13:17 | jodaro | donde esta senor tellman |
| 13:19 | rplevy | are there any plans for an official clojurescript jar in a maven repo? lein-clojurescript is using its own packaged clojurescript jar in the clojars repo, and clojurescriptone is including the cljs compiler in the source, etc... |
| 13:19 | TimMc | jodaro: There's probably an abstraction you're supposed to use over those. |
| 13:20 | clj_newb | TimMc: thanks |
| 13:20 | TimMc | rplevy: Packaging is still in the works, but planned, i believe. |
| 13:20 | jodaro | yeah i think so |
| 13:20 | rplevy | TimMc: ok cool |
| 13:20 | jodaro | if it was always a lamina channel that'd be fine |
| 13:20 | jodaro | channels are the bomb |
| 13:21 | technomancy | rplevy: there are rumors; as usual nothing is clear. |
| 13:21 | jodaro | but this bigendianholycrapthisisalongclassname thing is less awesome |
| 13:22 | rplevy | ok, I'll stay tuned then |
| 13:22 | TimMc | BigEndianHeapChannelByteBuffer$UnspecifiedException$Factory$Bean$FuckMyLife$ThisIsMore$Than80Columns |
| 13:22 | jodaro | yeah |
| 13:23 | jodaro | org.jboss.netty.buffer.BigEndianHeapChannelBuffer |
| 13:23 | jodaro | sorry, thats what it is |
| 13:23 | jodaro | no Byte |
| 13:23 | Raynes | rplevy: Everybody is currently trying to convince core that cljs should be in maven. They don't want it there. |
| 13:23 | rplevy | Raynes: why not? |
| 13:23 | Raynes | rplevy: I recommend you black out your clojure projects in protest. |
| 13:23 | Bronsa | lol |
| 13:23 | rplevy | haha |
| 13:23 | Raynes | rplevy: I'm not sure they've given an actual reason. |
| 13:24 | Raynes | *shrug* |
| 13:24 | rplevy | :) |
| 13:24 | pdk | is that when you set your font color to black |
| 13:24 | jodaro | (defmacro blacken ... |
| 13:24 | jodaro | you can just wrap all of your code with that macro |
| 13:24 | jodaro | and instead of running, everything just turns black |
| 13:26 | TimMc | Raynes: Why, are they going for a less modern distribution channel, like CDs in magazines? |
| 13:26 | pjstadig | Raynes: i think the reason is that clojurescript is not a java project |
| 13:26 | cemerick | Raynes: from everybody. I think most have just tuned out. |
| 13:26 | cemerick | s/far/far from |
| 13:26 | Raynes | TimMc: Shell scripts, apparently. |
| 13:26 | TimMc | hot |
| 13:27 | Raynes | pjstadig: I'm still not sure what the idea is. Roll another dependency management solution specifically for ClojureScript? |
| 13:27 | Raynes | Not that I've never reinvented wheels. |
| 13:27 | pjstadig | yeah |
| 13:27 | pjstadig | i don't think i've heard what alternative there may be |
| 13:27 | stuartsierra | No one is against having ClojureScript bundled into JARs and deployed to Maven repositories. |
| 13:27 | pjstadig | just that they don't want maven because cljs is not a java project |
| 13:28 | pjstadig | stuartsierra: i thought stuart halloway pretty much said that |
| 13:28 | Raynes | I'm pretty sure he did. |
| 13:28 | stuartsierra | I think Stuart Halloway meant we don't want that to be the ONLY deployment strategy. |
| 13:29 | Raynes | I wish he'd say what he means then. |
| 13:29 | pjstadig | "I am opposed. Leiningen + Maven is a big dependency to bring in for a language that is not part of the Java ecosystem." |
| 13:30 | cemerick | Talk about mvn artifacts is moot if releases (whatever the numbering / messaging) aren't in the cards. |
| 13:30 | stuartsierra | Stu H. said that in response to the suggestion that we *replace* the shell scripts in CLJS with Leiningen. |
| 13:30 | stuartsierra | Stu does not want Leiningen to be the only way to use CLJS. |
| 13:31 | Raynes | If that's the case, it sounds like he needs to clarify his position in more than one sentence. |
| 13:31 | stuartsierra | Also from Stu H. in that thread: "You should not need Maven to develop or distribute ClojureScript libraries. That said, you should of course be *able* to use Maven for these purposes if that is already part of your workflow." |
| 13:32 | gfredericks | technomancy: oh man it's so nice to be able to use backspace again. Thank you sir. |
| 13:38 | rplevy | it seems not entirely accurate to say cljs is not part of the jvm ecosystem though. don't you need java to compile clojurescript? |
| 13:39 | emezeske | rplevy: not only that, but clojurescript macros are written in clojure |
| 13:39 | cemerick | And usage in conjunction with a Clojure backend is probably the most common practical use case as an initial adoption vector. |
| 13:39 | cemerick | But, this is all known. |
| 13:41 | stuartsierra | Let me put it this way. We WILL have ClojureScript JARs in Maven repositories at some point in the near future. We MAY ALSO have some other dependency, probably based on Git repositories. |
| 13:42 | stuartsierra | s/dependency/dependency management system/ |
| 13:44 | cemerick | crap, I should have put money on it somewhere :-P |
| 13:47 | stuartsierra | The best objection to Maven repositories I've heard is the disconnect between "release" versions and version control history. |
| 13:47 | pjstadig | eh |
| 13:47 | pjstadig | i'm unconvinced by that line of argumentation |
| 13:48 | technomancy | <pom><scm><connection>scm:git:git://github.com/technomancy/leiningen.git</connection> [...] |
| 13:48 | stuartsierra | technomancy: Yes but there is no link between a particular release number and a particular git commit. |
| 13:49 | technomancy | so the objection is that some people suck at using tags? |
| 13:49 | pjstadig | for instance, I think there are several flaws with the argumentation here https://github.com/brentonashworth/one/wiki/Dependencies |
| 13:50 | stuartsierra | The objection is that it is not easy to pinpoint a particular Git commit, possibly on a non-master branch, without explicitly creating a release for that commit. |
| 13:50 | jsabeaudry_ | Anyone has experimented by returning an infite ISeq as :body for a ring response? It seems that ring just keeps pumping data even if the client has disconnected |
| 13:50 | pjstadig | i think that use case is actually orthogonal to releases |
| 13:51 | cemerick | pjstadig: huh, hadn't seen that before, thanks |
| 13:54 | Joreji | Hey guys, why is this code: (take 1 (map (fn [_] (print ".")) (range))) printing out 32 dots? I thought being lazy meant that only so much is evaluated as is needed? |
| 13:54 | stuartsierra | Joreji: chunked sequences |
| 13:54 | dakrone | Joreji: lazy-seqs are chunked in sets of 32 |
| 13:55 | Joreji | Any way I can work around this? |
| 13:55 | Joreji | (actually that explains a lot of interesting problems I had in the past, lol) |
| 13:56 | cemerick | (mapcat list (range)) will get you what you want; lists aren't chunked |
| 13:56 | dakrone | Joreji: http://p.draines.com/13269131007646223b829.txt |
| 13:56 | Joreji | dakrone: Cool thank you :) |
| 13:57 | Joreji | cemerick: Good to know. Tough for my purposes I'll try dakrone's solution first :-) |
| 13:57 | cemerick | eh, I've done the submodules-as-dependencies thing. Horrid, especially given transitive dependencies/submodules. |
| 13:58 | technomancy | git submodules are the best arguments I've seen so far to start using mercurial. |
| 13:59 | cemerick | isn't it easier to just not use submodules? ;-) |
| 13:59 | technomancy | also acceptable |
| 13:59 | Joreji | dakrone: How should I use the unchunk fn? Simply applying it to the above example yields the same result. |
| 14:01 | Joreji | dakrone: Aha, figured it out. It has to be applied to the innermost seq. |
| 14:03 | dnolen | Joreji: though it's important to note, if your code depends on the actual "amount" of laziness, then your code relies on side-effects. |
| 14:04 | Joreji | dnolen: Yes. Printing out progress as the lazy-seq gets realized is the side effect. |
| 14:10 | dnolen | Joreji: then why not (dotimes [_ 1] (print ".")) ? |
| 14:11 | pjstadig | dnolen: eh...we've run into problems where our lazy sequences caused OOMEs because they were getting chunked |
| 14:11 | pjstadig | i guess that's a side-effect |
| 14:12 | pjstadig | but probably the weakest form, no one really expects that their program has an infinite amount of memory to compute |
| 14:12 | raek | pjstadig: also note that another source of problems is when you nest laziness, like (concat (concat (concat (concat ...)))) |
| 14:12 | raek | e.g. when you combine concat and reduce |
| 14:13 | dnolen | raek: that's a different problem, right? stack overflow. |
| 14:13 | raek | yeah |
| 14:14 | raek | that problem has a pretty easy solution though: just wrap each layer of concat in a doall |
| 14:15 | Joreji | dnolen: This really was just a simplified example to illustrate my problem :-) |
| 14:17 | pjstadig | raek: we hit that at work too |
| 14:17 | pjstadig | which is why I think I'm qualified to talk about clojure's laziness constructs at Clojure/West :) |
| 14:22 | Raynes | pjstadig: To get your point across, you should just get up there and not talk at all. When people ask you why, tell them you're being lazy. |
| 14:24 | technomancy | no you should just stop halfway through your talk and wait for someone to ask a question |
| 14:24 | technomancy | and use it as an explanation of chunking |
| 14:24 | Raynes | Excellent. |
| 14:25 | pjstadig | i'll need a plant in the audience to ask the question "(take 1)?" |
| 14:25 | pjstadig | then i'll continue for 32 more minutes |
| 14:26 | technomancy | I'd volunteer, but your talk is right after mine and I might need to take a breather. |
| 14:26 | Raynes | I would totally do that if I were there. |
| 14:27 | technomancy | *the only talk |
| 14:27 | jodaro | ahh, ok |
| 14:27 | jodaro | For a chunked response, the response :body should be a channel. |
| 14:29 | cemerick | technomancy: surely you'll be more of a facilitator though? |
| 14:29 | technomancy | cemerick: yeah, it just feels weird. =) |
| 14:29 | cemerick | It'll be way too big of a crowd to do anything else while hacking. |
| 14:30 | Raynes | I think I spent most of the last two days of the Conj trying to write code and listen to the talks at the same time. |
| 14:30 | Raynes | I've probably got a commit somewhere that is just a subconscious transcription of someone's talk. |
| 14:31 | Raynes | Well, I mostly slept during your talk. |
| 14:31 | technomancy | cemerick: it's OK we can promise to stop making fun of you for using the mouse |
| 14:31 | Raynes | I keep forgetting that I have a mouse since I started using Vim. |
| 14:31 | cemerick | Raynes: you're better off for it :-) |
| 14:31 | cemerick | sleeping, that is |
| 14:32 | cemerick | technomancy: can't say I use it much at all |
| 14:32 | cemerick | Mostly only when browser-ing |
| 14:32 | TimMc | pjstadig: After the last Clojure meetup here in Boston, some of us went out to a restaurant and debated whether to pay our bill lazily. (Try to leave, and pay when asked.) |
| 14:32 | technomancy | cemerick: ah, I was just trying to stereotype IDE users. joke fail. |
| 14:32 | Raynes | cemerick: I hate admitting it though, really. I was having significant trouble staying awake through most of the talks. I'm surprised nobody slapped me out of my seat. I guess I'm just not made for the conference nightlife. I should have just slept more. |
| 14:33 | technomancy | anyway, that's the thing I love about the thinkpad trackpoint; you can just pluck the thing out and be done with it |
| 14:33 | TimMc | technomancy: That's illegal in some countries. |
| 14:33 | cemerick | If there was a decent tiling window manager for OS X, I'd be able to swear it off entirely. |
| 14:33 | Raynes | cemerick: Man! |
| 14:33 | Raynes | cemerick: I was so disappointed to find out that there weren't any decent tiling wms for OS X. |
| 14:34 | cemerick | yup |
| 14:34 | pjstadig | technomancy: rotentio vegetarian? |
| 14:34 | Raynes | Just crappy hacks that don't work well. |
| 14:34 | technomancy | sure there are; you just have to run everything in X |
| 14:34 | cemerick | couple of sorta sad shareware-y things that mostly suck |
| 14:34 | cemerick | technomancy: hush |
| 14:34 | cemerick | twm ftw, eh? |
| 14:35 | pjstadig | there's actually some great tiling window managers for OS X |
| 14:35 | Raynes | cemerick: So what are you giving me for my birthday? |
| 14:35 | oakwise | Raynes: have you seen divvy? |
| 14:35 | pjstadig | you just have to install Linux first to access them |
| 14:35 | pjstadig | :-p |
| 14:35 | oakwise | hah |
| 14:35 | Raynes | pjstadig: Hurrrrr hur. |
| 14:36 | technomancy | pjstadig: would have worked better if you said "for Macs" |
| 14:36 | pjstadig | i thought about it |
| 14:36 | cemerick | I have an ubuntu ISO ready to go if and when apple goes stupid with its app store / locked-down general-purpose computation B.S. |
| 14:36 | pjstadig | but that's not what cemerick said |
| 14:36 | pjstadig | meh |
| 14:37 | pjstadig | cemerick: hehe. well Unity isn't much better these days |
| 14:37 | technomancy | the best thing about unity is how easy it is to replace |
| 14:38 | cemerick | Is there a distro that will run on macs that has support, so I can not bother learning how to recompile my kernel to get wifi to work? |
| 14:38 | Raynes | I've been wishing for some Linux lately, but I'm too scared to dual boot on a macbook pro. |
| 14:39 | Raynes | It's a good way to quickly destroy your computer, and I don't exactly have a bunch of them. |
| 14:39 | technomancy | cemerick: usually depends how old the macbook is. brand-new stuff is sometimes sketchy; the older the better generally. |
| 14:39 | technomancy | cemerick: bonus points for Intel graphics |
| 14:39 | cemerick | technomancy: *not* the most rousing endorsement |
| 14:39 | technomancy | cemerick: anyway you can always test it out with a livecd; no commitment. |
| 14:39 | TimMc | Raynes: destroy? |
| 14:40 | cemerick | The 5 minute test is easy; it's the one 103 days in when the f'n printer won't work because CUPS wasn't compiled with the whateveritis. |
| 14:41 | TimMc | or when you can't connect to wireless at the coffee shop you spend 10 hours/week at. |
| 14:41 | Raynes | TimMc: The instructions for all the distros I looked at used very aggressive wording like 'destroy' and phrases like "BACK UP OR DIE" |
| 14:41 | technomancy | cemerick: admittedly I've only stuck with thinkpads, but I haven't had to manually configure any hardware since 2007. |
| 14:41 | pjstadig | strawmen all of these arguments |
| 14:41 | TimMc | Raynes: Ah, that's just data. You have tested backups, right? |
| 14:41 | pjstadig | i've had good success with ubuntu for many years |
| 14:41 | Raynes | TimMc: I was using that as an example. |
| 14:41 | JanxSpirit | Raynes: I got a System76 - Ubuntu out of the box - very nice |
| 14:41 | pjstadig | and not once had to recompile the kernel or CUPS's whateveritis |
| 14:42 | TimMc | Ubuntu is starting to really piss me off with their "relaxed" view of bugfixes and upgrades. |
| 14:42 | JanxSpirit | bigger than a MacBook Pro, but also way more horsepower |
| 14:42 | TimMc | "Ah, you'll just want to dist-upgrade, that'll fix it..." |
| 14:42 | technomancy | TimMc: yeah, I'm happy to be on Debian stable. very conservative. |
| 14:43 | Raynes | JanxSpirit: Never heard of those. |
| 14:43 | TimMc | JanxSpirit: I gave up on System76 when they started shipping terrible keyboards. (Otherwise great company.) Now I have a ThinkPad that came with no OS. :-) |
| 14:43 | TimMc | Note: I am fairly picky about keyboards. |
| 14:44 | cemerick | pjstadig: just citing from prior experience on *commodity* hardware. |
| 14:44 | JanxSpirit | yeah I've heard good things RE thinkpads - the keyboard on mine is a total MacBook clone |
| 14:44 | JanxSpirit | chicklets |
| 14:44 | solussd | JanxSpirit: what does it have? I've got a quad core i7 @ 2.3GHz macbook pro w/ 8gb of ram and a 1GB radeon 6750 (free upgrade from apple-- thanks!) |
| 14:44 | TimMc | JanxSpirit: and there's a BIOS switch to put the Ctrl key back on the lower-left corner. |
| 14:44 | JanxSpirit | solussd: OK it's right about there - 12G of RAM though |
| 14:44 | solussd | didn't think they were cramming much more than that into notebooks these days |
| 14:45 | solussd | nice |
| 14:45 | solussd | supposedly I can go to 16GB. Might- the price is finally right |
| 14:45 | JanxSpirit | I think 16 GB was an option, but that's where it got very pricey |
| 14:45 | TimMc | THe ThinkLight is where it's at -- no more using my cellphone as a keyboard light when typong my password in in the dark. |
| 14:46 | TimMc | To hell with speed. |
| 14:46 | JanxSpirit | it's been a mostly very good experience |
| 14:46 | solussd | yeah, 16GB of crucial value ram @ 1333MHz is going for ~ $170 on amazon right now |
| 14:46 | pjstadig | TimMc: i've actually found the illiminated keyboard on my new Dell to be better than the ThinkLight on my old ThinkPad |
| 14:46 | JanxSpirit | started a new job - everyone on MacBooks of course - I've never used Mac in my life and been on Linux for 10+ years, so I gave the System76 a try |
| 14:46 | technomancy | the problem with keyboard backlights is that they make drainage systems impossible |
| 14:46 | technomancy | one of those appearance vs functionality choices |
| 14:46 | pjstadig | technomancy: there's a driphole on the bottom of my Dell |
| 14:47 | pjstadig | ...and besides just don't spill things on your laptop |
| 14:47 | technomancy | pjstadig: I know you have kids dude; you can't pull that. =) |
| 14:47 | technomancy | that's cool if they've figured out how to do both though. |
| 14:47 | cemerick | "drainage systems"? :-O |
| 14:48 | technomancy | cemerick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q9ugshAO58 |
| 14:48 | pjstadig | cemerick: never had to use one myself, but good to know its there |
| 14:49 | cemerick | hah |
| 14:50 | Raynes | JanxSpirit: Those Lemur Ultra ones look nice. Affordable too. |
| 14:50 | Raynes | I might get one of those in a couple thousand years. |
| 14:51 | pjstadig | Raynes: with compound interest you could buy the solar system in a couple thousand years |
| 14:51 | gfredericks | that will be economically awkward |
| 14:52 | JanxSpirit | yeah those look a bit closer to Mac form factor |
| 14:52 | kephale | i'll sell you the solar system now |
| 14:52 | JanxSpirit | I got a Serval - definitely big but it's a very nice screen |
| 14:52 | Raynes | JanxSpirit: I could care less about the size. I just want something nice that I actually have a chance of buying |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | I have one of the netbooks. It's crazy-slow but at least it's little. |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | I probably should have paid for an SSD |
| 14:53 | technomancy | an SSD is the last upgrade you can buy that will make a noticeable performance difference |
| 14:53 | technomancy | savour it while you can! |
| 14:53 | hiredman | :/ |
| 14:53 | technomancy | after that every upgrade is just adjusting to a new set of compromises. |
| 14:53 | pjstadig | SSD++ |
| 14:54 | gfredericks | I will upgrade my SoundBlaster |
| 14:54 | TimMc | haha |
| 14:54 | pjstadig | to 16-bits???? |
| 14:54 | TimMc | Oh man, Win 3.1 was the best. |
| 14:54 | hiredman | I have an ssd, but am still using a core 2 duo, I hear the core chips are nice |
| 14:54 | pjstadig | no way! |
| 14:54 | technomancy | hiredman: meh |
| 14:55 | hiredman | technomancy: look, I rarely poop all over your dreams |
| 14:55 | kephale | technomancy: an accurate E*G input device might speed up a different type of performance |
| 14:55 | technomancy | I went back to a core 2 duo when I sent back my lenovo server and I don't really notice |
| 14:55 | technomancy | hiredman: then again, I'm not running the same tests you are =) |
| 14:55 | technomancy | kephale: yeah, looking forward to the direct neural interface stuff for sure. =) |
| 14:58 | gfredericks | oh man it will be weird when your subconcious is capable of executing programs against your will |
| 14:58 | TimMc | That already happens to me sometimes. |
| 14:58 | gfredericks | "I find the weirdest stuff set up in cron..." |
| 14:59 | TimMc | Have you ever started typing something and something else comes out this one day I was^W^W^W^W^W? |
| 14:59 | gfredericks | "Tips for keeping your subconcious from discovering your root password." |
| 14:59 | gfredericks | TimMc: at least you're there to supervise it |
| 15:01 | TimMc | Hasn't happened to me in like a decade, but there was a span of about 3 years where that happened occasionally. My mind would wander while I was typing and... wtf? |
| 15:01 | TimMc | Clearly, messages from aliens. :-P |
| 15:26 | gfredericks | how do I access previous entries in the slime repl? |
| 15:27 | stuartsierra | M-p |
| 15:27 | gfredericks | stuartsierra: very good, thanks! |
| 15:27 | adamspgh | M-p works for generic shells in Emacs s well |
| 15:28 | tmciver | gfredericks: also C-'up arrow' |
| 15:28 | adamspgh | C-'up arrow' is captured by OSX (at least on Lion)… makes me crazy. |
| 15:29 | gfredericks | C-lots-of-things are captured for me in linux, unless I use the X version |
| 15:29 | jkkramer | 7l ,6hy['/nuilwø𧶅øøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøt6t7y2wxz6 65a|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||<<<<<<<<<<<<< |
| 15:29 | gfredericks | jkkramer: that password must take forever to type |
| 15:29 | amalloy | i assume he's sending it to #clojure so he has a handy place to copy/paste it from in future |
| 15:30 | gfredericks | Error: password must have at least 75 consecutive pipes |
| 15:36 | scgilardi | adamspgh: that's configurable in the keyboard system preference. uncheck a couple of boxes and Lion will pass ctrl- uparrow and downarrow to the app |
| 15:37 | Raynes | scgilardi: Psh! OS X users can't be expected to *configure* things!! |
| 15:38 | Raynes | It should read our minds and do what we want out of the box. |
| 15:41 | adamspgh | scgilardi: cool! I had not figured that out. thanks! |
| 15:42 | scgilardi | adamspgh: you're welcome :) |
| 15:52 | clj_newb | Can anyone here offer me terms to google for "converting a java graphics 2D environment to a PDF file" in clojure? I want to output _vector_ graphics, not bitmapped |
| 15:52 | solussd | so, map->MyRecordType will add keyvals to a record even if that record doesn't have the keys? |
| 15:53 | clj_newb | Current situation: I have a Java Graphics2D environment. I draw vector stuff to it. I want to output the Graphics2D environment as a _pdf_. I'm doing this in clojure. Suggestions on what to use? |
| 15:55 | jkkramer | sorry for flooding. cat on keyboard |
| 15:55 | jsabeaudry_ | Let's say my App depends on LibA and LibA depends on LibB, is there a way for me to force LibA to use a more recent version of LibB without touching LibA's project file? |
| 15:55 | amalloy | get a different Graphics2D instance, one that is intended for drawing to a pdf |
| 15:57 | amalloy | clj_newb: eg, use http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/2d/printing/index.html and a PDF "printer" |
| 15:58 | cemerick | clj_newb: you're never drawing "vector stuff" to the graphics context. Just because there's lines and arcs and paths doesn't mean it's vector-based. All the defaults use rasters. |
| 15:59 | cemerick | iText is one of the more commonly-used PDF generation libs in JVM-land. |
| 16:02 | technomancy | jsabeaudry_: as long as LibB didn't declare a ranged dependency it should work fine |
| 16:03 | jsabeaudry_ | technomancy: So I just specify the more recent dependency in my App project file? |
| 16:03 | technomancy | right |
| 16:04 | jsabeaudry_ | technomancy: Sweet, thanks for your help |
| 16:05 | technomancy | sure |
| 16:05 | clj_newb | amalloy: nice; thanks; I have a feature request for Clojure 1.4.0 -- (apropos "foo") queries Amallory |
| 16:15 | TimMc | clj_newb: You're asking for an 'apropos command? |
| 16:16 | TimMc | &(do (require 'clojure.repl) (clojure.repl/apropos "shift")) |
| 16:16 | lazybot | ⇒ (bit-shift-left bit-shift-right) |
| 16:16 | amalloy | TimMc: i think he's "enhancing" it so that it sends me a message |
| 16:16 | TimMc | Ah! I see. |
| 16:16 | TimMc | or Amallory, whoever that is. :-P |
| 16:16 | amalloy | yeah, poor guy |
| 16:17 | TimMc | I've seen him mentioned a lot, but we've never met. |
| 16:17 | amalloy | heh |
| 16:17 | amalloy | my family has a long tradition of being called mallory for no particular reason. i would have thought that's a first name, not last |
| 16:18 | emezeske | wasn't mallory a character in that cheesy show "sliders"? |
| 16:18 | emezeske | it's his fault! |
| 16:19 | technomancy | is "Calm down Ken" on the mailing list a reference to Ken Wesson? |
| 16:19 | technomancy | because if so, <3 |
| 16:21 | amalloy | technomancy: yeah, i loved that |
| 16:21 | amalloy | ever notice you've never seen the two of them in the same room...? |
| 16:21 | technomancy | what happened to Ken anyway? I killfiled him; did he wander off to harass some other community? |
| 16:21 | amalloy | technomancy: dunno. he hasn't been posting for months |
| 16:22 | technomancy | also, I love how this thread basically confirms my decision to plonk Cedric. |
| 16:22 | cemerick | dunno, that was a killer quote re: everest. :-P |
| 16:22 | amalloy | technomancy: glad to see i'm not the only one who thinks he's a <censored> |
| 16:23 | technomancy | cemerick: he's pretty... frothy |
| 16:23 | cemerick | I haven't kept up with the latest personalities. |
| 16:23 | stuartsierra | cemerick: You'll always be a <censored> to me. |
| 16:23 | technomancy | http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=273 <- panel 3 |
| 16:24 | cemerick | stuartsierra: more heat than light of late, huh? |
| 16:25 | TimMc | technomancy: 3rd strip, you mean? |
| 16:25 | technomancy | TimMc: oh; yes. |
| 16:25 | stuartsierra | The vibrancy of the Clojure community warms my heart to a state of crispy deliciousness. |
| 16:26 | rplevy | Regarding https://github.com/brentonashworth/one/wiki/Dependencies mentioned earlier, listed among the things that have not been easy to do: "try our projects with changes made to a library". The "checkouts" feature of leiningen makes this pretty easy to do. |
| 16:26 | Raynes | technomancy: Cedric bothers me. |
| 16:26 | Raynes | Significantly. |
| 16:27 | TimMc | Raynes: With less than 5% probability of chance? |
| 16:27 | TimMc | WHAT P-VALUE ARE WE DEALING WITH HERE? |
| 16:27 | TimMc | ahem |
| 16:27 | amalloy | TimMc: SIX SIGMA |
| 16:27 | TimMc | *gasp* |
| 16:27 | technomancy | Raynes: /ignore works for email too you know. |
| 16:28 | jkkramer | google groups needs a killfile feature |
| 16:30 | technomancy | rplevy: that's what I thought too; apparently either there is some confusion about it or ...? https://github.com/brentonashworth/one/issues/64 |
| 16:32 | rplevy | technomancy: oh I didn't see that |
| 16:38 | rplevy | technomancy: interesting discussion, I'm not sure I fully understand the point of a git repository being a dependency, it seems better to have versioned releases |
| 16:39 | cemerick | Raynes: FYI, lazybot logs aren't escaping many HTML entities |
| 16:39 | technomancy | rplevy: afaict no one outside relevance understands it |
| 16:40 | Raynes | cemerick: I'm aware. |
| 16:40 | Raynes | It's a damn shame. |
| 16:40 | cemerick | The world will go on, I'm sure. :-) |
| 16:44 | amalloy | <script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.cornify.com/js/cornify.js"></script> |
| 16:44 | amalloy | hm. XSS didn't work |
| 16:45 | Raynes | amalloy: Does it send the logs as HTML? |
| 16:47 | amalloy | sorta. i think we just need to wrap the actual log data in CDATA |
| 16:47 | TimMc | I bet tags are being stripped. |
| 16:47 | TimMc | ]]><b>HA!</b><[CDATA[ |
| 16:47 | amalloy | TimMc: no, they're not. look at the inspector on the log page |
| 16:48 | cemerick | TimMc: no, there's a <pom> in there |
| 16:48 | TimMc | Whoops, that worked. |
| 16:49 | amalloy | <![CDATA[ <b> this shouldn't be bold</b> |
| 16:49 | amalloy | ]]> |
| 16:49 | TimMc | nothing |
| 16:50 | amalloy | yeah, weird |
| 16:50 | TimMc | (Play along at home: <http://lazybot.org/logs/#clojure/2012-01-18>) |
| 16:50 | TimMc | Oooh, and a <censored> or two. |
| 16:51 | TimMc | lazybot didn't even... <blink> |
| 16:54 | TimMc | amalloy: Cornify loaded. |
| 16:54 | amalloy | really? it didn't for me |
| 16:54 | TimMc | No, I mean cornify.js |
| 16:54 | TimMc | It's not doing anything. |
| 17:00 | TimMc | amalloy: Cornify is failing to add its div, or maybe the reload script is killing it. |
| 17:00 | TimMc | also, </blink> |
| 17:01 | Raynes | TimMc: You don't get out much, do you? |
| 17:01 | TimMc | I don't know what would make you say such a thing. |
| 17:04 | Raynes | TimMc: The blink tag is an ill-conceived weak-ass piece of shit anyway, so... whatever. |
| 17:12 | TimMc | Raynes: Oh, ha! I was wondering why that piece of vitriol sounded so familiar! :-D |
| 17:12 | Raynes | I was afraid I had missed my chance. |
| 17:30 | benares_98 | anyone attending clojure west? |
| 17:30 | Raynes | I imagine lots of people. |
| 17:30 | emezeske | benares_98: I plan to! |
| 17:31 | pjstadig | no |
| 17:31 | pjstadig | no one is going |
| 17:35 | jeremyheiler | im thinking about going. gotta figure out how much it'll cost to get across country, though. |
| 17:36 | amalloy | just walk it. head out now |
| 17:37 | jeremyheiler | maybe on the way I can gather a following and even sponerships |
| 17:37 | jeremyheiler | sponserships* |
| 18:02 | clj_newb | the following code hangs: paste.lisp.org/display/127157 -- why? (even when I print to pdf rather than printer) |
| 18:02 | clj_newb | the following code hangs: paste.lisp.org/display/127157 -- why? (even when I print to pdf rather than printer) ; btw, I don't even get a courtsey exception -- it just hangs |
| 18:03 | hiredman | clj_newb: you already said that |
| 18:03 | hiredman | technomancy: have you seen http://skife.org/java/2012/01/10/posix_from_java.html |
| 18:04 | clj_newb | hiredman: I fixed it too |
| 18:04 | technomancy | hiredman: no, but with an URL like that I'm bound to like it |
| 18:04 | clj_newb | now, part 2: Graphics2D.drawString( ... ) ends up producing ugly text (not antialiased and all that). How do I get JavaGraphics to do the most expensive, most intense, most visually appealing vector graphics / text rendering? |
| 18:05 | clj_newb | I'm talking stuff that takes Google's cluster to render half a page |
| 18:06 | hiredman | now that I have passed it on I can finally close this tab |
| 18:06 | clj_newb | I think I want rendering hints. What do you think? |
| 18:09 | clj_newb | woot |
| 18:09 | clj_newb | antialiasing working now |
| 18:09 | clj_newb | my PDFS are beautiful |
| 18:11 | choffstein | Anyone have any idea how I can go about fixing a "Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pst-elem-str in this context" from `lein swank` if I have no idea what library is causing it? |
| 18:12 | technomancy | choffstein: you have an old version of clj-stacktrace somewhere. see the Troubleshooting section of the swank-clojure readme |
| 18:12 | technomancy | clojurebot: Unable to resolve symbol: pst-elem-str |is| you have an old version of clj-stacktrace somewhere. see the Troubleshooting section of the swank-clojure readme. |
| 18:12 | clojurebot | Ok. |
| 18:12 | choffstein | Yeah, I read it. I couldn't seem to resolve where clj-stacktrace was sneaking baout |
| 18:13 | choffstein | *about |
| 18:13 | technomancy | you could force a dependency on the most recent clj-stacktrace explicitly |
| 18:14 | technomancy | a patch to get swank-clojure to gracefully fall back or issue a more comprehensible warning in that case would be super |
| 18:25 | amalloy | technomancy: clojurebot doesn't like . in his factoids iirc |
| 18:26 | amalloy | i don't recall correctly, apparently |
| 18:44 | bloop | I have an implementation question: why is the branching factor for maps 32? did Rich test other sizes and find them wanting? is 32 words a good page size for caches in a 32bit architecture? |
| 18:46 | arohner | bloop: it fits in a java int |
| 18:47 | bloop | that's why the has is 32 bits, sure, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) why is the node a 32 pointer array? |
| 18:47 | bloop | s/has/hash |
| 18:48 | bloop | it's even kind of awkward taking 5 bits at a time off the 32 bit hash. a 16 word node is more intuitive to me, since you wouldn't have those "leftover" bits taking 4 bits off at a time... |
| 18:49 | arohner | bloop: http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/ |
| 18:53 | arohner | bloop: also, http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/09/08/understanding-clojures-persistenthashmap-deftwice/ |
| 19:00 | bloop | arohner: this... doesn't really explain why 32 is the branching factor. You could just as easily have it be 16 and then take 4 bits at a time, couldn't you? |
| 19:06 | metajack | bloop: you want he branching factor to be as large as possible in order to make the tree shallow i assumed. |
| 19:07 | bloop | metajack: well there's clearly a tradeoff though: assoc on a small map means a bigger node to copy... |
| 19:09 | amalloy | it has been claimed that 32 is good because it fits in a cache line |
| 19:11 | metajack | bloop: i was under the impression that small maps got stored in more efficient structures too. but my knowledge is somewhat limited since I haven't looked at the implementation so I should stop talking. |
| 19:11 | bloop | amalloy: that makes sense. is that just something that Phil Bagwell says, or is there data somewhere where they tested different sizes? |
| 19:11 | bloop | metajack: I think that's what defstruct is for |
| 19:13 | amalloy | bloop: dunno. also, metajack, defstruct is for throwing in the garbage. if you want convenience use plain maps; if you badly want that last bit of performance you can use defrecord, which is a much more efficient store |
| 19:13 | metajack | Since I saw various different things when doing (class some-map) i figured there were multiple implementations and it promoted based on the tradeoffs. |
| 19:14 | amalloy | anyway, maps smaller than ten are generally array-maps (where every lookup involves just scanning all the keys); larger than that an actual hashmap is used |
| 19:14 | metajack | amalloy: array maps were what i was thinking of |
| 19:14 | bloop | amalloy: oh! neat. |
| 19:48 | robinkraft | is there an idiomatic way to check equality floats that are meaningfully the same for a given precision? |
| 19:48 | robinkraft | I'm looking for something like (nearly-same? precision n1 n2) that returns true for (nearly-same? 7 1.0 1.000000000018) |
| 19:54 | robinkraft | (Float/compare 1.0 1.0000000000018) does the trick |
| 20:34 | technomancy | does the LA clojure group meet on the first thurs. of the month? |
| 20:36 | amalloy | technomancy: it generally meets the same time as seattle (and SF), but has been a bit unpredictable recently |
| 20:36 | technomancy | amalloy: I may be down in socal for march |
| 20:37 | technomancy | someone on the Heroku Java team said they got invited to speak at la-clj and forwarded it on to me. |
| 20:37 | amalloy | want to give a presentation? i don't think there's anything lined up |
| 20:38 | technomancy | bit too early to commit, but I'd like to. |
| 20:38 | technomancy | do you help with scheduling it? |
| 20:39 | amalloy | no, not at all |
| 20:40 | truys | hi =) |
| 20:41 | amalloy | technomancy: it sounds like you have contact info for the guy who does schedule it, but let me know if i can help with something |
| 20:48 | technomancy | yeah just curious about timing; thanks |
| 21:29 | TimMc | ,~5 |
| 21:29 | clojurebot | #<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/unquote> |
| 21:30 | TimMc | Oh, never mind. |
| 22:57 | _carlos_ | hi! |
| 22:59 | _carlos_ | I am looking into multimethods, and I don't quite get the magic. how is the multimethod supposed to guess which implementation to call just based on the arguments? |
| 23:01 | brehaut | _carlos_: when you define a defmulti you pass it a function |
| 23:01 | brehaut | _carlos_: when you call a multi, that function is called on the arguments first, then its result is checked against the values defined in the defmethods for that multi |
| 23:03 | _carlos_ | brehaut: its result? where is the result computed? |
| 23:03 | brehaut | _carlos_: by the function you supply to defmulti |
| 23:03 | bobhope | Is it appropriate to post a link to a blog post I wrote about clojure promises and futures? |
| 23:04 | brehaut | _carlos_: (defmulti foo (fn [x] (count x))) (defmethod foo 1 [x] "one") (defmethod foo 2 [x] "two") (defmethod foo :default [x] (str (count x))) |
| 23:05 | brehaut | _carlos_: in that defmulti, (fn [x] (count x)) is where the dispatch is calculated |
| 23:05 | brehaut | _carlos_: there are three definitions of foo, one when (fn [x] (count x)) returns 1, one for two and a default for anything else |
| 23:06 | _carlos_ | brehaut: hahaha.. got it. the book I am reading used a keyword as function. really forgot keywords are functions, so it was blowing my mind with so much magic! |
| 23:06 | brehaut | aha |
| 23:06 | brehaut | bobhope: why not |
| 23:06 | _carlos_ | brehaut: thank you for the helpful example |
| 23:11 | _carlos_ | is there any cheatsheet of use cases and feature of language that should be used? I forgot to start building mine as reading this book |
| 23:12 | brehaut | _carlos_: theres http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/ |
| 23:12 | brehaut | _carlos_: its only concerned with type related features though |
| 23:13 | bobhope | I wrote this post about promises and futures: http://dgrnbrg.tumblr.com/post/16099937741/promises-and-futures-in-clojure |
| 23:13 | bobhope | I think I covered some details that aren't immediately available |
| 23:13 | _carlos_ | brehaut: not quite my short-term use case, but for sure will be in the future, thanks. |
| 23:15 | _carlos_ | I can build this use case by reading a second book to ciment the concepts |
| 23:15 | brehaut | bobhope: i suspect that if someone doesnt know what a promise is, they are unlikely to know what a count down latch is either ;) |
| 23:23 | bobhope | brehaut, really? |
| 23:23 | bobhope | I think that coming from not-clojure, they might not |
| 23:23 | bobhope | Also, it brings into stark relief what behavior to expect |
| 23:23 | bobhope | i.e. your current thread sleeps on the delivery |
| 23:28 | amalloy | brehaut: i knew what a count-down latch was but not a promise, fwiw |
| 23:28 | brehaut | amalloy: you have some amount of java background? |
| 23:28 | amalloy | yes |
| 23:29 | amalloy | though i'm not really sure what context i learned about that in |
| 23:29 | brehaut | id never heard of a CDL outside of JVM, but ive encountered promises many times |
| 23:29 | technomancy | seancorfield: is there a plan to support c.j.jdbc connection objects outside with-connection? |
| 23:29 | amalloy | well, you came from haskell, where promises are relevant |
| 23:30 | brehaut | amalloy: also python and javascript |
| 23:30 | technomancy | the one-connection-per-thread model is not always what you want |
| 23:32 | _carlos_ | now that I am a little used to this no-syntax language, I find a little silly and hard to remember the grammatical constructs of non-lisp languages. quite defeats the point of having grammar at all |
| 23:36 | seancorfield | technomancy: can you elaborate on the c.j.jdbdc question? |
| 23:38 | technomancy | seancorfield: I'm just reaching in and calling clojure.java.sql.internal/get-connection and alter-var-rooting *db* because I've got a bajillion small inserts coming in off the wire from netty, so I can't use binding |
| 23:39 | seancorfield | i'll merge the internal ns into the main one soon - you'd like get-connection to be public? |
| 23:39 | technomancy | feels a bit gross; was wondering if get-connection should be part of the public API, and if the functions that rely on *db* being bound could have alternate versions that would accept a connection arg |
| 23:39 | technomancy | get-connection on its own isn't quite enough; you need to be able to pass it to the functions that need it |
| 23:40 | technomancy | unfortunately since most of them take varargs that might be nontrivial |
| 23:40 | technomancy | but you see what I'm getting at? |
| 23:40 | seancorfield | yes, part of the 0.2.0 API overhaul is to rewrite everything to accept a connection argument |
| 23:40 | seancorfield | and then rewrite the old API in terms of the new one |
| 23:41 | technomancy | excellent |
| 23:41 | technomancy | I'm ok with my workaround for now; just wanted to know if that was on your radar |
| 23:43 | seancorfield | yeah, the clojure/core feedback about a 1.0 release was very valuable |
| 23:43 | seancorfield | i don't like the current API... it works but it's a pain to use in some ways |
| 23:44 | seancorfield | i've written a wrapper around it for world singles |
| 23:45 | seancorfield | we're a bit slammed at work so i'm not sure when i'll get time to work on it... but my wife is away at cat shows several weekends in march and april so that might be my opportunity |
| 23:45 | seancorfield | i'd like to get a first cut done before clojure/west but i doubt i'll have the time |
| 23:45 | technomancy | once clojurewest isn't hanging over your head? =) |
| 23:46 | seancorfield | yeah :) |
| 23:46 | seancorfield | i need to get a talk together before then ya know! |
| 23:47 | technomancy | same here |
