#clojure – 2012-01-13

2012-01-13

01:10	devn	Hello all.
02:17	romanandreg	has anyone tried to used the implementation of a multimethod defined in a namespace you are requiring? say you are working on namespace a, and the namespace b has a definition of a multimethod from a namespace c
02:18	romanandreg	I want to be able to use the impl of the multi method defined on namespace b in namespace a
02:18	romanandreg	any thoughts?
02:18	jcromartie	I'd say try iy
02:18	jcromartie	it
02:18	romanandreg	no luck
02:18	jcromartie	make a quick test
02:18	jcromartie	ok
02:20	romanandreg	I could do a copy-paste, but I wouldn't feel clean after that :-p
02:21	jcromartie	but really, that's the whole point multi methods
02:21	jcromartie	of multimethods
02:21	jcromartie	the interface is the only thing you reference directly
02:21	jcromartie	including the implementations in any way installs them
02:22	jcromartie	and then you are isolated from that implementation
02:22	romanandreg	well I'm doing a require :as for namespace b from namespace a
02:24	romanandreg	ns a requires b and c; c has a defmulti, b has a defmethod of mulit defined on c; a wants to use the defmethod defined in b
02:24	romanandreg	uhmm…. gotta be a way
02:25	jcromartie	so it would not be sufficient for namespace "a" to require the multimethod from namespace "c"
02:25	romanandreg	jcromartie: it should, but is not, it seems the "defmethod" from b is not being loaded
02:26	jcromartie	huh, so the implementation itself is not loaded?
02:26	romanandreg	jcromartie: that's my wild guess
02:26	jcromartie	and you're sure it's not just a problem with the dispatch value
02:26	jcromartie	and you're sure namespace b is loaded
02:27	romanandreg	jcromartie: yes, as soon as I'm trying to use the symbol (dispatch value is a symbol in this case) on ns a, the thing barfs back at me
02:27	romanandreg	saying there is no dispatch for the given symbol
02:27	jcromartie	ok let's try it in a REPL
02:30	jcromartie	in my experiment, doing (ns c) (defmulti foo …) (ns b) (defmethod c/foo …) (ns a) (c/foo b-dispatch-val) seems to work
02:31	jcromartie	I'd check the dispatch function
02:31	jcromartie	but well it's a symbol
02:31	jcromartie	so
02:31	romanandreg	uhmm weird
02:31	jcromartie	you know already :P
02:31	romanandreg	I can show you the actual real code, or at least where is coming from
02:31	jcromartie	anyway time for be… it's 2AM here
02:31	jcromartie	sure
02:31	jcromartie	I'll give it a second
02:31	romanandreg	ok
02:32	romanandreg	getting sources
02:32	romanandreg	from github links
02:33	romanandreg	jcromartie: I'm working with this library => https://github.com/rnewman/clj-apache-http/blob/master/src/com/twinql/clojure/http.clj#L190
02:33	romanandreg	also with this other
02:33	romanandreg	I'm trying to use this impl
02:33	romanandreg	https://github.com/mattrepl/clj-oauth/blob/master/src/oauth/client.clj#L44
02:34	romanandreg	that also requires that project
02:34	jcromartie	with entity-as
02:34	romanandreg	my project uses those two project
02:34	romanandreg	s
02:34	jcromartie	so what about your code
02:34	romanandreg	(:require [com.twinql.clojure.http :as http]
02:34	romanandreg	[oauth.client :as oauth])
02:34	romanandreg	access-token (oauth/success-content
02:34	romanandreg	(http/post access-token-uri
02:34	romanandreg	:as :urlencoded))
02:34	romanandreg	barfs at me
02:35	romanandreg	Exception: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method in multimethod 'entity-as' for dispatch value: :urlencoded
02:35	romanandreg	http/post uses internally entity-as
02:36	jcromartie	:urldecoded
02:36	romanandreg	LOL
02:36	jcromartie	DE not EN
02:36	jcromartie	:P
02:36	jcromartie	have a good night
02:36	jcromartie	later
02:36	romanandreg	LOL
02:36	romanandreg	jcromartie: I'm sleepy
02:36	romanandreg	thaaaaaanksss!
02:36	romanandreg	gosh 2 am at your TZ and like a sharp
02:36	jcromartie_sleep	thanks
03:07	AWizzArd	Moin moin.
03:13	devn	is it right to assume that if i have a sorted map and call (vals) on it that I will get a sorted seq?
03:14	devn	,(let [sorted-m (sorted-map :0 10.11 :1 9.10 :2 8.9 :3 7.8 :4 6.7 :5 5.6 :6 4.5 :7 3.3 :8 2.1 :9 1.0)] (vals sorted-m))
03:14	clojurebot	(10.11 9.1 8.9 7.8 6.7 ...)
03:14	devn	Does that work all the time? It's type is ValSeq.
03:14	devn	Its*
03:18	AWizzArd	Yes, this works.
03:19	AWizzArd	devn: a sorted map sorts its keys, so when you call vals it can be any result.
03:20	AWizzArd	depends on the keys
03:20	AWizzArd	,(vals (sorted-map :a 5 :b 2 :c 17))
03:20	clojurebot	(5 2 17)
03:21	AWizzArd	Without this feature a sorted map would be mostly useless, because the random lookup of keys is for practical reasons nearly O(1).
03:31	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:33	amalloy	AWizzArd: i'm not quite clear on what you mean by the random lookup of keys being O(1)
03:37	AWizzArd	amalloy: (get a-sorted-map some-key) ==> this is +/- O(1) for maps, if they are sorted or not doesn't matter.
03:37	amalloy	no way. for sorted maps it's O(log2(n))
03:38	AWizzArd	Okay good, thanks for clarifying that.
03:38	amalloy	for hashmaps it's log32, which i agree is effectively constant given that the max size is 2^32
03:39	AWizzArd	Yes, I was thinking of Clojures hashmaps.
03:39	amalloy	yeah. clojure uses red/black trees for sorted maps
03:39	AWizzArd	But when the lookup for sorted maps is even more expensive then this underlines the point that I was trying to make: sorted maps deliver a sorted seq for the (keys of-a-sorted-map)
03:40	AWizzArd	Otherwise this data structure would be useless, if even the lookup is already more expensive.
03:41	AWizzArd	amalloy: do you know if there is a way to implement fully persistent sorted maps that have a lookup time closer to O(1)?
03:41	amalloy	i doubt it
03:42	amalloy	you can't even do it with ephemeral maps
03:57	notostraca	AWizzArd, maybe Judy Arrays? they are a kind of trie
03:58	AWizzArd	notostraca: are Judies fully persistent, as the second paragraph here explains? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure
03:58	notostraca	but they are mostly known by one implementation in C, 20,000 lines of C, though you can do it in under 1,000 i think
03:59	notostraca	AWizzArd, absolutely they are not
04:00	AWizzArd	notostraca: so mvcc doesn't work on them I guess.
04:00	notostraca	AWizzArd, I believe it does
04:00	AWizzArd	I need something that can be modified while I traverse a snapshot.
04:01	notostraca	I have never tried a zipper myself
04:01	notostraca	but that sounds like what you are talking about
04:01	notostraca	,google zipper data structure
04:01	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: google in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
04:01	notostraca	no idea the syntax you want, clojurebot
04:18	kral	namaste
04:19	G0SUB	kraft: hello
04:27	amalloy	$google zipper data structure
04:27	lazybot	[Zipper (data structure) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipper_(data_structure)
04:27	amalloy	notostraca: ^
04:29	notostraca	thanks amalloy
04:34	Raynes	G0SUB: I am not prejudice! Damn Indians, always thinking I'm prejudice. :p
04:34	G0SUB	Raynes: lol
04:35	G0SUB	Raynes: well, TBH, you expected people to tweet back at you and ask you to use emacs instead. that's prejudice :-)
04:36	Raynes	G0SUB: I'm pretty sure that you yourself did that when I tweeted a while back about my editor experimentation.
04:37	Raynes	Which is the whole reason I tweeted that. :p
04:37	G0SUB	Raynes: I did. Unfortunately there is no well-established emoticon to denote a "tongue-in-cheek" comment.
04:37	Raynes	Hehe
04:37	G0SUB	Raynes: I see your point.
04:39	Raynes	Someone else has done that as well. I was just trying to avoid 10 "why not Emacs" tweets by morning, since I already use it and just like playing with editors.
04:40	G0SUB	Raynes: true. people are passionate about their tools and try to evangelise given any opportunity.
06:07	bpr	does anyone know if there's a fork of clj-http that allows you to accept unsigned ssl certs?
06:08	AWizzArd	bpr: which one are you using?
06:09	bpr	medSage
06:10	bpr	AWizzArd: well, i just forked it and i'm adding that functionality, but I was thinking that I shouldn't reinvent the wheel
06:10	AWizzArd	bpr I know the one from dakrone.
06:10	AWizzArd	That one supports it.
06:10	bpr	oh nice
06:10	bpr	thanks, you just saved me some time :)
06:11	AWizzArd	The original author is mmcgrana.
06:11	bpr	oh
06:11	bpr	ok
06:11	AWizzArd	He now says himself to use the version of dakrone.
06:11	AWizzArd	And in the dakrone version you can say :insecure true
06:11	bpr	ah. i seem to have a hard time finding the "real" version of libraries on github
06:11	AWizzArd	or :insecure? with a questionmark
06:11	bpr	great
06:12	AWizzArd	bpr: yes, there is this posting about the github forking model: t-machine.org/index.php/2012/01/13/2012-the-year-of-uncollaborative-development-or-when-github-kills-open-source/
06:12	bpr	yeah, i was just looking at that too haha
06:23	AWizzArd	bpr: you can also specify as an option: {... save-request? true ...}, which will give you the request object which was used by clj-http. Helpful for debugging.
06:23	jowag	where is destructuring handles in clojure? Is it in reader?
06:24	AWizzArd	And there is the option :debug true too.
06:24	jowag	*handled
06:32	G0SUB	bpr: dakrone is the canonical repository of clj-http now. mmcgrana mentions that on the github page.
06:35	bpr	AWizzArd, G0SUB: thanks
06:50	tsdh	Hi.
06:52	tsdh	Does anybody know where I can find documentation about Clojure's JIRA issue procedure? For example, what are the "Fix Versions" Backlog, Approved Backlog, etc. meant for?
06:55	AWizzArd	tsdh: you typically want to add bug reports and feature requests to the 1.4 milestone.
06:56	AWizzArd	When you click on “Versions” you will find a short description.
06:56	AWizzArd	Though the description “Backlog” for the Backlog doesn't really add much information ;)
06:56	tsdh	AWizzArd: See. ;-)
06:57	tsdh	Well, I only have a minor enhancement request + the patch implementing it. I guess, I'll say Backlog. Sounds somehow right...
06:59	tsdh	Should I add myself as Assignee? Basically, I only need a review by some core team member...
07:00	tsdh	I'll stick with automatic, whatever that means... :-)
07:03	AWizzArd	tsdh: when it is not your turn to review the issue, then assign the one who should do it.
07:03	tsdh	AWizzArd: How should I know who's responsible?
07:05	tsdh	Hopefully, that's the intention of the Backlog. You add patches, and eventually some core team member picks them up and reviews them.
07:28	AWizzArd	tsdh: then leave the assignee unfilled.
07:42	tsdh	AWizzArd: Did so./
08:36	_carlos_	hi
08:43	bpr	_carlos_: heya
08:49	`fogus	OK. I am determined to roll out CLJS prop access syntax today even if it kills me (it will)
09:24	pjstadig	`fogus: doooooiiiiiiiittttt!!!!!
09:32	`fogus	pjstadig: Underway
09:32	`fogus	pjstadig: BTW, I am ready to move to StadigOS. Please finish it post haste
09:33	jcromartie	is there any chance of continuations getting first-class support in Clojure?
09:34	`fogus	jcromartie: Vegas odds are very low
09:39	jimduey	jcromartie: I'd love to see that but don't think it'll happen on the JVM at least not until the JVM supports it.
09:39	jimduey	and maybe not even then.
09:46	duck1123	are there any good ways to get Korma to retry a query in the event of a communications link failure? Or do I have to explicitly wire in retries
09:56	pjstadig	`fogus: you may be waiting quite a while :)
10:10	TimMc	`fogus: Only if it kills you temporarily.
10:10	TimMc	Otherwise, where would we get our footnotes?!
10:14	WorldOfWarcraft	hey guys what is this question asking for me to do: (= (__ (sort (rest (reverse [2 5 4 1 3 6])))) (-> [2 5 4 1 3 6] reverse rest sort __) 5)
10:17	joegallo	my initial read: (= a b c) is true if a and b and c are all equal, so it wants you to fill in the blanks with expressions that will get you 5 for all three expressions
10:17	joegallo	so, how do you get 5 out of the first expression and the second expression?
10:17	joegallo	i'm not sure if it wants you to use the same exact function for each, though
10:17	WorldOfWarcraft	oh so last
10:17	WorldOfWarcraft	ill try last
10:18	joegallo	that seems like a nice short answer
10:18	WorldOfWarcraft	hooray it worked thx for getting me started :)
10:18	joegallo	np, good luck with the rest of the problems
10:19	kral	WorldOfWarcraft: nice nick! :)
10:29	Fujitsu	Can anybody help me with this exercise? http://www.4clojure.com/problem/19
10:29	manutter	Fujitsu: sure
10:30	manutter	how much help do you want?
10:30	Fujitsu	Well, I tried using (reverse (first))
10:30	kral	WorldOfWarcraft: if only i could have back all the time wasted playing wow...
10:30	Fujitsu	but that didn't work...
10:30	WorldOfWarcraft	lol wasted noooooooo
10:31	WorldOfWarcraft	no its (first (reverse))
10:31	WorldOfWarcraft	wow is the best thing in the world its not wasted time
10:32	Fujitsu	WorldofWarcraft: That didn't work at all...
10:32	babilen	Fujitsu: Which makes sense.. you want the last element which is why you reverse it first and take the first element (formerly the last) afterwards.
10:32	WorldOfWarcraft	right
10:32	babilen	Fujitsu: You might want to understand why #(peek (vec %)) works
10:33	manutter	Fujitsu: he gave you the short version, but you need to make it an anonymous function to fit it into the exercise
10:33	Fujitsu	Oh
10:33	Fujitsu	I see
10:33	Fujitsu	Gotchya
10:33	WorldOfWarcraft	ok cool
10:34	babilen	manutter: "he" == I?
10:35	tvadakumchery	if there a way todefine an anonymous multimethod?
10:35	tvadakumchery	*is
10:36	babilen	I would be surprised, but don't take my word for it. (fairly new to clj)
10:36	tvadakumchery	not that it would be particularly useful, but still
10:36	tvadakumchery	I'm on 4clojure
10:37	tvadakumchery	and I'm trying to shorten my character count
10:37	WorldOfWarcraft	what problem is this?
10:37	stuartsierra	No, there are no anonymous multimethods
10:37	tvadakumchery	#128
10:37	manutter	babilen: no, wow
10:38	babilen	ack :)
10:41	stuartsierra	1.4.0-alpha4 released
10:42	manutter	Sweet
10:43	tvadakumchery	speaking of that
10:44	tvadakumchery	how do I instal 1.3.0 on emacs
10:44	tvadakumchery	I have 1.2.0 running now
10:45	Fujitsu	more specifically clojurebox
10:45	tvadakumchery	Yeah
10:57	tvadakumchery	how do I instal 1.3.0 on emacs
10:59	gtrak	tvadakumchery: you should be using leiningen to manage projects, specify 1.3.0 in the project and emacs can connect to a swank server with slime-connect
11:10	aravart	Hey all. I had a quick question. Let's say I had a hash map {:a 1 :b 2} and I wanted to write a let-form where a and b got bound to 1 and 2, is there some way to do that dynamically for all the keys of a map (in other words, where I don't know at compile time what the map's keys will be)?
11:12	gtrak	if you don't know them at compile-time, you also won't know to use them in code within the scope, why not just keep them in a vector instead of generating a let?
11:16	joegallo	good answer
11:17	`fogus	aravart: you'll need eval for that
11:18	`fogus	aravart: I have a little lib that does just that https://github.com/fogus/evalive
11:21	melipone	how can I upgrade to clojure.contrib 1.3.0? I'm using lein but I get an error with lein deps on that.
11:22	gtrak	~contrib
11:22	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:22	jamiltron	There is no clojure.contrib in 1.3
11:22	jamiltron	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
11:22	melipone	i know, but i don't understand it. what do I do now?
11:22	gtrak	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
11:23	melipone	I wanted duck-streams and priority-map
11:23	gtrak	"clojure.contrib.duck-streams mostly migrated to clojure.java.io"
11:23	jamiltron	duck-streams is mostly handled by clojure.java.io
11:23	jamiltron	^ What he said :)
11:23	jamiltron	he or she
11:23	melipone	what about priority-map?
11:24	jamiltron	Migrated to clojure.data.priority-map
11:24	duck1123	usually what I do is go to clojuredocs and search for the fn I'm looking for, It'll usually show up as being in both the old and the new spot
11:24	melipone	duck1123: okay, I'll do that.
11:24	melipone	jamiltron: thanks
11:26	duck1123	also a quick scan down the clojure user page on github finds the library I'm looking for
11:30	melipone	duck1123: what's the url for the clojure user page on github?
11:44	raek_	melipone: https://github.com/clojure
11:51	melipone	raek: I've downloaded clojure.data.priority-map form github. What do I do now to have it installed on my machine?
11:57	raek	melipone: you most often don't download the source and build it yourself. it should already be available in a maven repo (assuming it is maintained and has been released. this is not the case for all new contrib libs)
11:57	raek	melipone: first, do you know about leiningen
11:57	raek	?
11:58	melipone	raek: a little. clojure.contrib 1.3.0 is not available on a maven repo, tho?
11:58	raek	there is no clojure.contrib 1.3.0 (and will not be)
11:58	Intersession	Can anybody here help me out with http://www.4clojure.com/problem/26 ?
11:59	raek	melipone: you want to find the group id, artifact id and the version of the library. it should be something like [org.clojure/data.priority-map "0.0.1"]
12:00	raek	for any mature library this should be the first thing mentioned in the readme
12:00	jamiltron	Intersession: Sure, what do you need help with?
12:00	Intersession	I just don't know where to begin....
12:01	manutter	Intersession: do you know how to make a lazy seq?
12:01	raek	melipone: so you add that line in your project.clj file and run "lein deps". then you should be able to just use it from that project
12:01	Intersession	Nope, lol
12:02	raek	melipone: this workflow is explained here (I recommend reading at least the first half): https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/TUTORIAL.md
12:02	jamiltron	Intersession: do you know how to make a function that infinitely generates the fibonacci numbers?
12:03	Intersession	Jamiltron: No, I don't
12:03	raek	melipone: also this is quite useful when migrating a contrib-using project to 1.3: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
12:04	melipone	raek: I'm familiar with lein deps.
12:04	melipone	raek: lein deps didn't find org.clojure/data.priority-map though
12:05	manutter	Intersession: it's a bit old, but have a look at http://formpluslogic.blogspot.com/2009/07/clojure-lazy-seq-and-recursion.html
12:06	manutter	Intersession: if you know how lazy-seq's work, a fibo sequence is pretty easy to write
12:06	Intersession	manutter: Thanks, I definitely will :)
12:08	Intersession	Out of curiosity, did anybody here learn clojure as their first programming language?
12:08	raek	melipone: what did you specify as a dep in your project.clj?
12:08	Intersession	Because I'm having a hard time with it, and it's the first programming language I've tried to tackle
12:09	raek	(note that I have no idea whether priority-map is actually ready to be used.)
12:09	jamiltron	Intersession: It takes time, you're doing good by getting practice like 4clojure in. My first language wasn't Clojure but it was a Lisp, and I certainly think Clojure is suited to be a good first-language.
12:10	raek	this seems to indicate that there is a version available though: http://repo2.maven.org/maven2/org/clojure/data.priority-map/0.0.1/
12:10	manutter	Intersession: you're the first person I've heard of who took clojure as their first programming lang
12:10	manutter	Intersession: I don't think there's a whole lot of material specifically geared to "Intro to Clojure for people who've never coded before"
12:11	manutter	Intersession: however I think with the right approach Clojure could be the best, or at least among the best, of any lang you could choose to start with
12:11	Intersession	I'm taking a crash course on clojure for my high school, but apparently I missed the "previous programming experience recommended" in the fine print
12:12	mabes	Intersession: this is a helpful tutorial if you haven't seen it already: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html
12:13	Intersession	mabes: That seems... thorough. I'll take a look
12:13	TimMc	I think that's a little old.
12:13	mabes	Intersession: Yeah.. it is a little dated, and is geared more to an experienced programmer.. still worth the read though.
12:14	mabes	e.g. it talks about clojure-contrib
12:15	manutter	I was thinking about putting together a VirtualBox image of a system already set up for Clojure/emacs/NetBeans/etc, but I wouldn't know where to host an image that big
12:16	TimMc	manutter: clojars :-P
12:16	manutter	Heh :)
12:16	duck1123	man, I envy Intersession. Programming has got to be so different coming to Clojure with a completely clean slate
12:19	tmciver	duck1123: yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
12:20	devinus	anybody in here use protobuf or thrift?
12:20	TimMc	I dunno about Clojure as a first language -- you have to poke around in Java from time to time, and that's confusing. Better to have Scheme as a first lang, I think.
12:20	tmciver	Intersession: I recommend just getting a good book on Clojure, if you haven't already done so. Programming Clojure by Halloway is good, though a little dated now.
12:21	tmciver	TimMc: what about Java -> Clojure?
12:21	manutter	Intersession: Another good book is Clojure in Action, a bit more recent
12:22	tmciver	I almost feel like it would be better to start with a non-functional programming so you can better see the virtues of it.
12:22	manutter	Though I hear there's a new edition of the Halloway book either coming soon or recently released
12:22	manutter	tmciver: Heh, start with PHP, you'll REALLY appreciate Clojure
12:25	TimMc	tmciver: I feel like Scheme allows you to focus on the important stuff first, then broaden your scope to implementationy stuff.
12:25	TimMc	tmciver: e.g. no one needs to be focusing on 1/5 vs. 1/5.0 while they're learning their first language.
12:25	duck1123	You don't really appreciate modern languages unless you start by numbering your lines by 10. (started with Atari Basic)
12:26	jamiltron	TimMc: I agree with that, as someone who started with Scheme.
12:26	TimMc	and the REPL is essential for exploration
12:28	dnolen	tmciver: I'm not sure that's true. mutable variables fly in the face of basic math taught in schools.
12:28	TimMc	Oh yeah, that definitely confuses newcomers.
12:32	flazz	i have clojure and repl installed via brew. any reason readline seems to not work anymore?
12:38	melipone	raek: I probably didn't have the right name or the right version, he?
12:39	melipone	raek: I couldn't see what the right version of clojure.data.priority-map was until after I ran mvn install. Where is the version specified?
12:41	melipone	raek: unless it's on clojars, I'm completely lost on where to find the libraries
12:47	dnolen	flazz: installing clojure via brew is not a great idea, just use lein.
12:48	flazz	dnolen: is there a way to use lein without a project for a repl?
12:48	dnolen	flazz: lein repl
12:48	flazz	duh, sorry/thanks
12:48	flazz	:)
12:48	flazz	i should just get used to emacs
12:48	`fogus-away	OK, I'm about to break ClojureScript... ready?
12:51	TimMc	yay
12:59	ljos	Hi - is there a map similar to this : (map #(f %1 %2) l1 l2) where %1 becomes the element in l1 and %2 is l2. %1 %2 is the same placement in each list.
13:00	mrBliss	this one: ##(map + [1 2] [10 100])
13:00	lazybot	⇒ (11 102)
13:00	dnolen	`fogus: hurrah!
13:00	mrBliss	so just map ;-)
13:01	ljos	Oh. I understood that map didn't do that but something else when there where two lists.
13:01	ljos	Thanks.
13:02	_carlos_	hi
13:03	_carlos_	why is "partial" name used for a function that returns, say HTML?
13:04	TimMc	_carlos_: partial doesn't have anything to do with HTML -- you'd have to provide context.
13:05	_carlos_	TimMc: that is why I said "say", like an example. in the context of Noir. probably hiccup
13:06	amalloy	he probably means defpartial
13:06	TimMc	Oh!
13:06	_carlos_	amalloy, TimMc, yes I am sorry. I mean "partial" from defpartial
13:06	TimMc	_carlos_: I thought you were talking about ##(map (partial + 2) [5 9])
13:06	lazybot	⇒ (7 11)
13:07	amalloy	shrug it returns "part of a page". there's no deeper meaning
13:07	TimMc	What API is it part of? hiccup?
13:07	amalloy	noir
13:08	`fogus	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/9367b4d6ed4bc96b
13:08	`fogus	Announced
13:08	`fogus	Now to ClojureScript One
13:08	_carlos_	TimMc: Noir. I said also hiccup, because I suspected Noir is using it, but not sure
13:12	_carlos_	amalloy: partial is cool!
13:13	seancorfield	_carlos_: tell amalloy juxt is cool and you'll have a friend for life :)
13:13	amalloy	haha
13:13	seancorfield	i'm actually surprised how often i use juxt...
13:16	technomancy_	does 4clojure only score by char count rather than token count?
13:17	amalloy	technomancy: yes
13:18	amalloy	token count is easy to compute but harder to explain, and none of us were clever enough to make a graph that combines the two results
13:19	dnolen	`fogus: sweet
13:32	priv_cooper	Are there any lein plugins for auto code reloading?
13:32	priv_cooper	As in, the equivalent to "lein run" every time a file is saved?
13:33	priv_cooper	Or, lein plugin or not, what would be the best way to achieve this?
13:33	technomancy	priv_cooper: usually that's achieved through editor integration
13:34	manutter	Noir does that by default, doesn't it?
13:34	manutter	Depends on what you're re-running
13:34	priv_cooper	manutter: Not building a web app
13:34	priv_cooper	:)
13:34	manutter	Ah well, worth a shot :)
13:34	priv_cooper	Hmm..
13:34	priv_cooper	I use vim :/
13:35	manutter	jark might help?
13:35	manutter	Are you in a unix/linux environment?
13:36	priv_cooper	Yeah, osx
13:37	manutter	Hmm, ubuntu has a watch command, but I don't think osx does
13:38	emezeske	priv_cooper: Are you using vim-clojure or slimv?
13:39	emezeske	priv_cooper: I believe both plugins support sending the current file to a repl
13:39	priv_cooper	emezeske: Ahh, I need to check these out
13:39	emezeske	priv_cooper: You could easily set up a "file saved" hook that did that
13:39	priv_cooper	I believe I have vim-clojure setup.
13:39	emezeske	priv_cooper: I personally use vim-clojure, it is very nice
13:40	jowag	does vim have paredit-like mode?
13:40	emezeske	jowag: The slimv plugin has that.
13:40	emezeske	Although I ripped it out of there so I could use it with vim-clojure :)
13:45	technomancy	babilen: have you updated clucy to fix the ^:dynamic warnings in 1.3?
13:53	babilen	technomancy: Yes
13:54	technomancy	babilen: is it ready to merge or do you have more work to do?
13:54	babilen	technomancy: Along with an update to lucene 3.5.0 and other things -- I'll push it to GH as soon as I am happy.
13:54	technomancy	very nice; thanks.
14:01	jsabeaudry	What are the good libraries for working with binary data? I've seen bytebuffer and Gloss but are there more?
14:06	anntzer	hi, is there an easy rule as to when arguments to :use/:require/:refer/use/require/refer need to be quoted? (at least it's unclear for me)
14:07	`fogus	I think I have both Domina and CLojureScript One migrated to the property lookup functionality. That was almost too easy. :p
14:07	technomancy	anntzer: the ns form is declarative, so no quoting there. the repl versions of the functions are lower-level and require quoting
14:08	anntzer	ook
14:09	TimMc	`fogus: Any idea when cljs leaves alpha?
14:10	`fogus	TimMc: Not sure. Once we have our release process in place it'll be more clear.
14:10	TimMc	Ah, right -- still no artifacts.
14:10	anntzer	also, it seems that there is a problem with circular dependencies if declared in (ns), but not using the low-level functions?
14:11	anntzer	(I had a nullpointerexception when the circular dependency was in the ns but it disappeared when I moved one of the "use"s out of the ns)
14:11	anntzer	is that correct?
14:12	jsabeaudry	anntzer: My reflex would be to remove the circular dependency
14:12	jowag	`fogus: btw is accesing deftype fields with (.-field t) idiomatic in CLJS?
14:12	dnolen	anntzer: circular deps are not allowed
14:13	dnolen	jowag: yup
14:13	`fogus	what dnolen said
14:13	jowag	thank you
14:14	jowag	and what about persistent collections, are they on a roadmap?
14:15	jowag	I have to be carefull where I use dis/assoc now :)
14:15	jowag	and it's more performant to have atoms allover the place rather than have one megaatom
14:15	ibdknox	`fogus: didn't know about as-this :) That'll be fine
14:17	`fogus	ibdknox: Excellent!
14:20	ibdknox	jowag: you've profiled that?
14:21	jowag	ibdknow: yep, assoc/dissoc is doing shallow array copy
14:21	TimMc	But have you profiled it?
14:22	jowag	yes :) in chrome, had 25ms and got it down to 12ms in my keyboard input handling fn
14:23	jowag	profiled with advanced compiler turned on
14:23	TimMc	Factor of 2? Yeah, that's significant.
14:23	amalloy	in a single-threaded language like javascript, isn't an atom just a simple mutable variable?
14:24	amalloy	heh, yes, looks like it is
14:24	devth	what regex would match a mixed line ending character ^M in clojure?
14:25	amalloy	well, #"\r" would, but i doubt that's what you mean
14:25	TimMc	I think \n is cross-platform.
14:25	devth	I was using #"\n" but it didn't seem to match. I'll try \r
14:26	amalloy	&(re-seq #"\n" "\r\n")
14:26	lazybot	⇒ ("\n")
14:26	amalloy	&(re-seq #"[\r\n]" "\r\n")
14:26	lazybot	⇒ ("\r" "\n")
14:26	TimMc	I always forget if ?m is important here...
14:27	emezeske	I hope \n isn't auto cross-platform
14:27	emezeske	Tcl tried making newlines all cross-platformy, and it was a nightmare
14:27	emezeske	Always doing subtle things you didn't expect
14:28	TimMc	I might have been thinking of another language.
14:28	emezeske	(Tcl maybe? Although nobody uses that.)
14:29	TimMc	Not that. :-)
14:32	technomancy	quick survey: what are your top lein tasks?
14:32	technomancy	history \| grep lein \| awk '{print $3}' \| sort \| uniq -c \| sort -nr \| egrep -v "^ +1"
14:32	_carlos_	in noir: when I remove [noir.content.getting-started] from welcome.clj, the home page doesn't render and a java exception is thrown. how do I enable the server to point to the content described in welcome.clj?
14:33	ibdknox	_carlos_: did you define /
14:33	ibdknox	_carlos_: or is it only /welcome
14:33	jcromartie	repl
14:34	amalloy	technomancy: i don't think that's very accurate, simply because history files don't work very well when multiple sessions/shells are open. my history alleges i've never run lein swank, despite that being my most common
14:34	jcromartie	technomancy: repl is the winner
14:34	dnolen	jowag: it could probably be done but I wouldn't expect performance to be acceptable outside the fastest JS engines.
14:34	_carlos_	ibdknox: no, just a second
14:34	technomancy	amalloy: yeah I don't expect swank to show up in there anyway due to M-x clojure-jack-in
14:34	amalloy	i don't do that though
14:34	technomancy	definitely not scientific, but interesting.
14:34	ibdknox	_carlos_: if you update to noir 1.2.2 that exception will no longer happen and you'll get a 404
14:35	technomancy	amalloy: right; just saying there's lots of reasons not to trust it =)
14:35	amalloy	chuckle
14:35	amalloy	anyway, apparently: deps, protobuf, self-install
14:36	jowag	dnolen: but it would't have worse performance than it has now, right?
14:36	manutter	lein upgrade, lein test too
14:36	_carlos_	ibdknox: how do I clean the cache withou restarting the server?
14:37	ibdknox	_carlos_: the cache?
14:37	ibdknox	_carlos_: just refreshing your browser should work
14:37	TimMc	technomancy: I run repl all the time on my work machine, but I leave one open on my home server.
14:38	_carlos_	ibdknox: I just removed that getting-started and it still loads that page. refreshing the page and cleaning cache doesn't work. I know restarting the server will work, but it's not practical
14:38	tmciver	technomancy: repl, new, swank, help
14:38	ibdknox	_carlos_: it can't knowingly remove a page, but it can replace it just fine
14:38	tmciver	deps
14:39	technomancy	cool; thanks
14:39	jowag	dnolen: Even if JS does not have such concurrency problems as JVM has, I try to have most of my functions pure and mutate only through atoms in a very few places, so I'm producing lot of garbage right now.
14:39	ibdknox	_carlos_: in other words, the only time you have to restart is if you completely remove a page and expect it to 404
14:40	dnolen	jowag: for small amounts of data - persistent data structures aren't a huge win. remember Clojure data types are generally constructed in sizes of 32
14:42	dnolen	jowag: what type of code are you writing? 15ms sounds like a lot of time for anything.
14:43	_carlos_	ibdknox: grr.. only after I restarted the server it worked.. -.-' yes, I had to set a "/" like you said. thanks! still, it would be nice to know why the page wasn't refreshing. restarting everytime is not practical
14:43	ibdknox	_carlos_: you don't need to restart
14:43	ibdknox	_carlos_: one potential reason why it may not have worked is if reloading the given code throws an exception
14:43	_carlos_	ibdknox: yeah, of course, but I still have to find out why this is happening
14:44	_carlos_	ibdknox: ha yes, it was throwing this: java.lang.IllegalStateException: GET-- already refers to: #'noir.content.getting-started/GET-- in namespace
14:44	_carlos_	ibdknox: this even after removing the getting-started line
14:45	_carlos_	ibdknox: anyways, probably this wont happen often. thanks!
14:45	clojurebot	excusez-moi
14:46	ibdknox	_carlos_: np
14:46	jowag	dnolen: some kind of an editor :) 15ms is good but I have to keep an eye on it that it won't go up or else it lags
14:46	acagle	50 deps 42 help 24 search 20 swank 6 jar 5 upgrade 5 noir 4 localrepo 3 version 3 new
14:46	devth	amalloy: TimMc: not sure why, but I could only match with #"\cM". even #"\r?\n?" did not match.
14:47	solussd	why does this cause an integer overflow? (take 100 (iterate #(* 2 %) 1))
14:47	TimMc	solussd: Try *'
14:47	TimMc	1.3 stopped autopromoting to BigInt(eger) with normal arith ops
14:47	solussd	really? why?
14:47	_carlos_	can someone add some cool sentences for lazybot in japanese? it's so cool! or nevermind
14:48	TimMc	I don't think there's a whole lot of demand...
14:50	solussd	Seems it should be the other way around- if I want efficiency I should go out of my way- correctness should be default
14:50	TimMc	technomancy: 72 repl, 54 run, 29 deps, 22 new, 6 uberjar... but I suspect that last one will change quite a bit after my lein-jit terminal is closed and its history absorbed.
14:51	TimMc	Also, I just don't believe that I've only run deps 29 times.
14:51	technomancy	TimMc: yeah, having multiple shells makes history very lossy
14:51	rabbler	solussd: I agree with you, I can see how that could be a big issue if upgrading clojure and now you start getting a bunch of exceptions you never got before. Perhaps you could rebind the non-promoting to the promoting versions in you code.
14:52	rabbler	but I am still very green when it comes to clojure.
14:53	_carlos_	haha, I can see pain in the future and some rvm coming into spring
14:54	TimMc	rabbler: That's not enough -- range uses + directly, for instance.
14:54	_carlos_	cvm - clojure version manager ^^
14:55	rabbler	Ahh.
14:55	_carlos_	rabbler: wait, I don't know if this exists really...
14:56	gtrak	but range still promotes, yea?
14:56	TimMc	gtrak: Nope!
14:56	TimMc	&(take 5 (range Long/MAX_VALUE Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY))
14:56	lazybot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow
14:59	raek	&(take 5 (range 9223372036854775807N Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY))
14:59	lazybot	⇒ (9223372036854775807N 9223372036854775808N 9223372036854775809N 9223372036854775810N 9223372036854775811N)
14:59	gtrak	well, my opinion is if you are relying on unbounded input, you should use promotion, in the majority of cases, you're not?
15:00	raek	if any argument of an arithmetic operation is a BigInt, then the result will be a BigInt too, I think
15:01	gtrak	I think I remember reading that it made substantially more code faster than the code it broke
15:02	solussd	ill buy it
15:02	amalloy	_carlos_: cvm doesn't make any sense for clojure. lein already handles that part of the equation
15:02	solussd	I guess it is safe, since it at least throws an exception
15:03	amalloy	(because, unlike ruby, clojure doesn't want to be installed system-wide, or even user-wide)
15:03	gtrak	it looks like clojure still promotes ints to longs and floats to doubles
15:04	_carlos_	amalloy: I have to think about those sentences. I have to go now, if I still don't undertsand, I will look for your nickname here. thanks!
15:04	amalloy	gtrak: clojure does arithmetic with 64-bit quantities
15:05	gtrak	amalloy: so it ALWAYS promotes?
15:05	amalloy	&(class (short 1))
15:05	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Short
15:05	amalloy	&(class (int 1))
15:05	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Long
15:06	gtrak	documentation says "Clojure will seamlessly promote ints to longs and floats to doubles as needed"
15:06	gtrak	not whenever it feels like it :-)
15:07	amalloy	it's a complicated topic that has been in flux from 1.2-1.4
15:07	gtrak	ah, but it gets boxed to be used by 'class'
15:07	amalloy	right
15:08	TimMc	Clojure functions only accepts objects, yeah?
15:09	gtrak	primitives too if you do it on purpose with hints AFAIK
15:09	dnolen	gtrak: my mental model - Clojure basically only has 64 bit numerics. anything else is interop.
15:09	dnolen	TimMc: gtrak: up to 4 arguments.
15:10	TimMc	oh right, I've seen that
15:10	gtrak	dnolen: yea, that makes sense, probably because there's no perf gain for 32-bit math on 64-bit chips. why 4 args?
15:10	dnolen	gtrak: because interfaces are generated to support it. exponential in the number of args.
15:11	amalloy	gtrak: because 4 args require 273 interfaces, and 5 require 342749823615
15:11	gtrak	oh, gross
15:11	gtrak	are you serious? it generates 273 classes for that?
15:11	amalloy	yes. check out IFn.java
15:11	TimMc	gtrak: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/IFn.java#L91
15:12	gtrak	omg, that's awesome, I hadn't looked at the 1.3 IFn
15:12	TimMc	"static public interface LOL"
15:12	ibdknox	/win
15:12	replaca	dnolen: Interfaces or signatures?
15:12	dnolen	replaca: interfaces
15:12	replaca	wow
15:12	amalloy	apparently 358. i misremembered
15:12	TimMc	dnolen: I see 5 in IFn
15:13	TimMc	Ah, one is return
15:13	amalloy	TimMc: return type
15:13	dnolen	this is of course all old news
15:13	dnolen	like 1.5 years old
15:13	TimMc	Yeah, never really investigated it though.
15:13	gtrak	i need to follow the dev list more closely
15:13	replaca	yeah,, I just don't look that closely at how the sausage is made :)
15:21	guns	Hello, is there a convention regarding the capitalization of `foo` in (require '[some.ns :as foo])?
15:22	Raynes	Never ever doing it is the convention.
15:22	guns	What's problematic about it? Seems better than a straight up (use)
15:24	guns	I'm just wondering if capitalization of symbols is supposed to be reserved for Java classes
15:24	amalloy	never capitalize it, not never require
15:24	guns	oh
15:25	guns	ok ty
15:26	replaca	guns: yeah, in general folks will read capitalized syms as Java classes/interfaces.
15:26	hiredman	(Foo/bar 1 2) looks like a static method call
15:27	amalloy	guns: the only clojure things we capitalize are types (as in deftype/defrecord) and protocols (which generate interfaces of the same name)
15:27	TimMc	guns: It will mess up your editor's syntax highlighting. :-)
15:27	TimMc	and your readers
15:27	guns	amalloy: ah, that's helpful
15:27	guns	TimMc: my vim setup doesn't seem to mind; too primitive I suppose
15:28	TimMc	Yeah, depends on the highlighter.
15:59	amalloy	siiiiigh, i hate when i find i've written ten lines of code, including writing out three lines twice. so i figure out a way to condense it into eight lines with no duplication at all, and (as expected) at the end i look at it and am like..."that's too confusing, there's no way i'd want to read that. i'll go back to the lame way"
16:00	technomancy	amalloy: the worst part about that is you know that someone else is going to do the exact same thing when they're looking over it three months in the future.
16:00	technomancy	s/else //
16:00	technomancy	because it will probably be you
16:00	amalloy	technomancy: aw man, sniped my fix
16:00	technomancy	hah
16:01	technomancy	amalloy: you should come join #leiningen
16:01	technomancy	it's the hip place to be
16:01	amalloy	i'm in too many dang channels. you better make this worth my while, buddy
16:02	technomancy	rcirc has this cool feature where you can put someone on notification-ignore
16:02	technomancy	you still see their lines in the channel, but when they speak it doesn't cause the client to consider that channel as having unread messages
16:03	technomancy	anyway, if your client has something like that you should use it for the travis-ci bot.
16:03	technomancy	because he's noisy
16:03	technomancy	well, he's noisy when I'm not lazy
16:06	amalloy	that sounds nice. maybe i'll look for a decent client one of these days
16:06	technomancy	you're not on irissi, are you?
16:07	technomancy	(you don't have to answer that question if it's embarrassing.)
16:07	amalloy	no, but i'm not allergic to perl either
16:08	amalloy	no, it's cool. i tell people i use pidgin, and i refuse to be embarrassed
16:09	amalloy	a bit of "comfort food", if you will, from my "use windows but kinda wanna be a hacker" days
16:10	technomancy	sometimes it's OK to follow your heart.
16:11	Raynes	technomancy: It is NOT okay to use Pidgin for IRC.
16:11	Raynes	It just isn't.
16:12	foodoo	Now that the topic is up: What kind of IRC clients do you use? I use irssi
16:12	technomancy	Raynes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYMRsngqPAc I guess
16:12	jsanda_afk	sorry, my irc client froze up
16:13	technomancy	foodoo: I just switched to rcirc from erc.
16:13	Raynes	I use ERC when I use Emacs. I've been using Textual for the past two days because I'm using Vim.
16:14	ibdknox	I use LimeChat
16:14	Raynes	But now that technomancy is using rcirc, I probably will to. He's mah role model.
16:14	foodoo	dammit, I'm a Vim user so rcirc and erc are not an option for me ;)
16:14	ibdknox	he's everybody's role model ;)
16:14	Raynes	ibdknox: Textual is better than LimeChat.
16:14	ibdknox	how so?
16:15	technomancy	there are a couple things I miss about erc, but the fact that I can have join/part hiding active for idlers only is pretty rad.
16:15	Raynes	Because I use it.
16:15	Raynes	The whole client is based on LimeChat and designed to suck less.
16:19	scottj	riece is an interesting emacs irc client that has a feature that appears to be designed for users who are in many non-active channels in that you have one window for your current channel and another for all the others.
16:21	`fogus	Tales from the CLJS migration trenches ---> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/9367b4d6ed4bc96b
16:22	ibdknox	`fogus: does it break doing (set! some.thing.blah 4)?
16:22	`fogus	ibdknox: no
16:23	ibdknox	cool
16:23	`fogus	ibdnox: Only (set! (.old-prop-style obj) 42)
16:24	ibdknox	`fogus: yeah. I'm glad this is finally out :) I can stop worrying about it now.
16:24	`fogus	ibdknox: me too ;-)
16:25	ibdknox	dnolen, `fogus: thanks for the effort!
16:25	`fogus	:-)
16:26	dnolen	glad it's over with, onward!
16:26	`fogus	yay!
16:26	`fogus	I'm going to get a drink now. ;-)
16:27	ibdknox	haha enjoy
16:27	`fogus	se ya at Clojure West. :-)
16:30	foodoo	is this information still current? https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start ./bin/cljsc hello.cljs '{:optimizations :advanced}' > hello.js produces a JS file that does /not/ define the goog object.
16:31	foodoo	and therefore my browser complains
16:32	amalloy	technomancy: guess what other client gives you join/part hiding for idlers only
16:32	technomancy	surely not pidgin?
16:33	amalloy	sorry to break it to you, but it's pidgin
16:33	technomancy	mind: blown
16:33	technomancy	I hate using programs that don't have a repl, but I actually do keep pidgin open because it's the only thing I've found with decent libjingle support.
16:34	TimMc	whatever that is
16:34	technomancy	TimMc: voip that doesn't crash all the time
16:34	technomancy	it's what google talk uses
16:35	TimMc	got it
17:06	augustl	hi folks. Trying to find out how to make noir/compojure/ring do asynchronous/concurrrent things, but failing
17:06	augustl	I'm new to clojure, but it would seem sensible to be able to, say, return an actor in a route, but it seems all I can do is to synchronously return a string/map
17:08	augustl	perhaps these frameworks perform every request in a single thread already, so it doesn't matter if I'm being synchronous?
17:10	augustl	s/in a single thread/in a separate thread/
17:11	dnolen	augustl: those libraries are already concurrent (because of jetty). is there something else you're trying to accomplish?
17:12	augustl	dnolen: currently not trying to accomplish much, other than grokking how these things work :)
17:12	dnolen	augustl: I believe aleph provides an async http server (on top of netty) that conforms to the ring spec
17:12	augustl	I'm a jvm noob as well, that doesn't help I guess.
17:13	dnolen	augustl: I'm assuming you're coming from the node.js world :)
17:13	augustl	rails, then node, some iOS, then a whole lot more node :)
17:13	augustl	you'd think I'm some kind of a hipster
17:14	vijaykiran	What does "In traditional Lisp, only the list data structure is structurally recursive" mean ?
17:14	yoklov	traditional lisp only has lists
17:14	vijaykiran	which is related to clojure "Extends the code-as-data paradigm to maps and vectors"
17:15	yoklov	which is defined as the first element (the ``car'') attached to the list of the rest of the elements
17:15	yoklov	(the ``cdr'')
17:15	yoklov	car and cdr are weird terms that refer to outdated technology.
17:15	yoklov	but a list is defined as the first element attached to the list of the rest of the elements
17:15	yoklov	which is structually recursive
17:16	augustl	does it make sense to say that most APIs in clojure are blocking/synchronous, then threads are used for concurrency?
17:16	yoklov	vijaykiran: finally, it will end with the empty list, nil (or, in scheme () or null)
17:16	yoklov	does that make sense?
17:17	dnolen	augustl: pretty much, though again, you do node.js like things with Netty / aleph
17:17	dnolen	augustl: in anycase unlike node.js real multithreading programming is possible - and not too scary.
17:17	amalloy	augustl: to clarify/simplify what dnolen said: clojure's popular web servers do service each request in its own thread
17:17	vijaykiran	yoklov: thanks .. yes. But the second statement - clojure extends the code-as-data to maps, vetors - means they are also seqs ?
17:19	augustl	amalloy, dnolen: I see. Makes sence, since threading apparently is both simple and easy in clojure
17:19	augustl	sense*
17:19	brehaut	augustl: its also fairly trivially to turn a blocking function into a nonblocking function, but going the other direction requires a bit more work
17:20	amalloy	i don't think i would allow the word "trivial" to be used anywhere near those sentences
17:21	brehaut	lol
17:21	yoklov	clojure provides literals for vectors (e.g. [1 2 3 4]), maps (e.g. {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}) and sets (e.g. #{:a :b :c :d}) as well as lists, all of these implement seq, meaning that you can use the seq functions (conj, first, next, rest, etc) on them.
17:21	yoklov	err
17:21	yoklov	that was directed at vijaykiran
17:21	amalloy	you can take a blocking function and run it in a future; that much is easy. but actually taking advantage of that and not breaking the rest of your app...
17:22	brehaut	amalloy: i was just talking about that at the level of a single function call, not the whole app
17:22	brehaut	the equivalent promise / deliver setup for going the other direction is a bit clunkier
17:24	vijaykiran	yoklov: ok .. got it! thanks!
17:25	yoklov	no problem! i used to TA a course on scheme so i've explained lists many many times :)
17:26	amalloy	technomancy: spoiler alert: you can compile clojure to javascript
17:26	amalloy	and since clojure and javascript each rock independently, this necessarily will rock in concert
17:26	TimMc	amalloy: You can compile clojurescript to javascript.
17:27	TimMc	and cljs looks like clj
17:27	scottj	technomancy: did you have some code that let you pick a user agent from a list in conkeror?
17:27	vijaykiran	brehaut: (assuming you are guy who wrote) thanks for the article .. http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction inspired me to bootstrap my web dev post http://www.vijaykiran.com/2012/01/11/web-application-development-with-clojure-part-1/
17:27	brehaut	vijaykiran: i am, thanks :)
17:35	yoklov	nice going TimMc, now everyone is too afraid to talk.
17:35	TimMc	OK, heading home, everyone can talk now.
17:43	technomancy	amalloy: you're saying that rockingness is composable?
17:44	technomancy	scottj: https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/commit/2904fe4868d6254820b1c2519d85327158df4394#.conkerorrc
17:44	technomancy	scottj: beware though, if you claim to be FF or chromium, the google search results page becomes unusable
17:44	technomancy	just starts stealing keystrokes left and right
17:45	technomancy	OTOH mobile.twitter.com becomes a lot more pleasant
17:45	technomancy	is it just me, or does "ditch jquery for gclosure in order to use clojurescript" sound an awful lot like "learn emacs in order to learn clojure"? as far as advice goes?
17:45	scottj	technomancy: yeah, I've noticed the annoying google page when I tried to fix the weird o's in Google on conkeror page
17:46	ibdknox	technomancy: yeah :(
17:46	amalloy	technomancy: yes. it's way easier to just use jquery and not enable advanced optimizations
17:46	ibdknox	amalloy: jQuery doesn't prevent advanced optimization, we need to stop telling people that :p
17:47	amalloy	really?
17:47	amalloy	well stop telling me that, then
17:47	technomancy	"That thing you are really familiar with that has a technically-superior alternative? Yeah, you're going to want to get rid of it. This other thing is way better."
17:47	ibdknox	I said that?
17:47	amalloy	no, not you specifically
17:47	ibdknox	ah
17:47	ibdknox	yeah
17:48	ibdknox	it will prevent jquery names from being munged, but properly wrapped that happens exactly once per name
17:48	ibdknox	if you're trying to optimize size to that degree, you're probably doing it wrong
18:01	technomancy	is anyone using swank with cljs-one?
18:02	technomancy	swank kind of assumes you aren't going to be doing insane things like script/setup_classpath
18:04	Raynes	technomancy: Do you have some kind of insatiable urge to do everything in Emacs?
18:05	augustl	hmm, noir seems to use a lot of side effects, such as cookies being set with (session/put! ...)
18:05	emezeske	Raynes: isn't that a trait of all emacs users?
18:05	augustl	is that bad?
18:05	ibdknox	Raynes: technomancy us emacs
18:05	ibdknox	meh
18:05	ibdknox	is rather
18:05	yoklov	yeah thats just an emacs user thing
18:05	Raynes	augustl: Web development is a side-effecty thing.
18:06	ibdknox	augustl: try the alternative, it's painful
18:06	augustl	Raynes: true that, I'd imagine a more clojure-esque soltion would simply be to return something
18:06	Raynes	augustl: Setting sessions inside of a highly isolated environment is okay imo, especially when the alternative is insane code for something that should be easy.
18:06	technomancy	Raynes: inferior-lisp is in emacs too
18:06	technomancy	it's just gross
18:06	augustl	{:cookies {:foo "bar"}, :body "test} or whatever
18:06	Raynes	You can do that if you want.
18:06	technomancy	http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/06/06
18:06	augustl	Raynes: in general, or in Noir?
18:06	ibdknox	augustl: both
18:06	Raynes	Both.
18:07	technomancy	s/have a regular DVD player/use a repl via a shell command/
18:07	Raynes	Noir's stateful session is a layer on top of existing session infrastructure in ring.
18:07	ibdknox	augustl: But I can tell you from experience that that adds an immense amount of complexity for literally no benefit
18:07	Raynes	Same with cookies.
18:07	augustl	hmm, is this documented somewhere?
18:08	ibdknox	augustl: "Alternatively, you can return a map with keys that correspond to the Ring spec. Here's an example of returning a response with a different status code:"
18:08	ibdknox	augustl: http://www.webnoir.org/tutorials/routes
18:08	augustl	hmm, can't seem to find anything about setting cookies in there
18:09	augustl	oh
18:09	ibdknox	augustl: why do you want to, though?
18:09	augustl	ibdknox: not currently writing an application, just exploring a bit
18:10	ibdknox	the reason I don't talk about it in the docs is because it doesn't work very well
18:10	ibdknox	even before Noir there was sandbar which made sessions stateful
18:10	Raynes	Not using stateful sessions is like a one night stand. It feels really good at first, but you're gonna hate yourself in the morning.
18:10	ibdknox	lol
18:11	augustl	Raynes: what exactly do you mean by stateful sessions?
18:11	Raynes	uggtghtgbhrh WHAT HAVE I DONE TO MY CODEEEE!?!?!
18:11	Raynes	That's what we're talking about here.
18:12	augustl	so stateful sesions == storing data in cookies?
18:12	ibdknox	hm?
18:12	augustl	or do you mean storing additional session data on the server?
18:12	ibdknox	they're intrinsically tied
18:13	ibdknox	the way a session is stored is by setting a session id cookie for the user
18:13	augustl	hmm, good point, it's refering to data on the server
18:13	ibdknox	sessions are inherently stateful things, as are cookies
18:13	yoklov	use continuations!
18:13	ibdknox	you're storing some state to later be read (and usually modified)
18:13	Raynes	Monads are like burritos!
18:13	augustl	are ring cookies signed btw? Doesn't seems so according to the docs.
18:14	ibdknox	Noir has a way to sign cookies
18:14	Raynes	I like to use a pen.
18:14	augustl	:D
18:14	augustl	http://www.webnoir.org/tutorials/sessions doesn't mention signing either
18:15	ibdknox	augustl: not many people have asked about it
18:15	ibdknox	and it's not generally something a beginner needs to know
18:15	augustl	it makes sense that you can't simply set the data of the cookie to an arbitrary user ID..
18:15	Raynes	Those tutorials are kind of a getting started sort of thing and less of a "this explains EVERYTHING" sort of thing.
18:15	Raynes	The API docs explain ALL the things.
18:15	ibdknox	augustl: http://webnoir.org/autodoc/1.2.1/noir.cookies-api.html
18:15	augustl	but then I have to learn how it works :)
18:16	ibdknox	augustl: you don't store sensitive info in cookies usually
18:16	augustl	ibdknox: indeed, but when storing the users ID for authenticatino, you do want signing
18:16	amalloy	augustl: ring cookies are just a session-id; all the important data is stored server-side in a map keyed by the session-id
18:17	augustl	oh, didn't know that, I thought setting session data just meant storing that data directly in the cookie
18:17	amalloy	someone sniffing the network could steal the session-id and claim it as their own afaik, but they could do that with a signed cookie too
18:18	ibdknox	sorry, I thought I made that clear earlier
18:18	augustl	amalloy: right if they get the contents of the cookie they own the session
18:18	augustl	amalloy: but ideally that won't happen (https yay)
18:18	ibdknox	no real data should ever be stored in a cookie
18:18	amalloy	indeed
18:18	augustl	but it would be a shame if all it took was storing the value "1" in the cookie to log in as user with id 1 :)
18:18	Raynes	I only store fake data in my cookies.
18:18	ibdknox	me too
18:19	amalloy	Raynes: #clojure's expert on one night stand psychology?
18:19	augustl	storing a session ID only is more security than obscurity
18:19	augustl	I don't know what the session ID looks like but I have a feeling it's easier to guess than a signature..
18:19	ibdknox	it's a high entropy uuid
18:19	amalloy	augustl: ring has configurable cookie storage backends, though
18:19	Raynes	amalloy: I guess I'm just not great at metaphor.
18:20	amalloy	there's a backend which uses a private key or something to encrypt (not sign) the cookie data and send it across to the client
18:20	ibdknox	augustl: either way, you can easily set the session cookie options and make it http only
18:20	augustl	where is this documented? Not here, it seems http://mmcgrana.github.com/ring/ring.middleware.cookies.html
18:20	ibdknox	augustl: where is what documented?
18:20	Raynes	amalloy has a mongo-session for storing session data in mongodb. It's the best thing ever.
18:20	amalloy	documented in "read the source" mode, i imagine
18:20	technomancy	Raynes: "I'm like a shark; I just gotta keep... making analogies."
18:21	technomancy	http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/03/01
18:21	augustl	ibdknox: ring storing the session data on the server
18:21	ibdknox	augustl: http://mmcgrana.github.com/ring/ring.middleware.session.html
18:22	augustl	ah, didn't know there was a separate "sessions" api
18:22	ibdknox	that's essentially how all sessions work though, I'm not aware of a server implementation that stores sessions actually in the cookie
18:22	augustl	ibdknox: Ruby on Rails does this by default
18:22	augustl	all session data is stored in a cookie, then it's signed with a server-side secret
18:23	augustl	you can tell it to store in memory, in db, memcached, etc too, though
18:23	amalloy	ibdknox: there's a backend which uses a private key to encrypt (not sign) the session data and send it across to the client via the cookie
18:24	ibdknox	augustl: really? http://guides.rubyonrails.org/security.html
18:24	augustl	not sure why Rails just signs, instead of encrypring everything
18:24	augustl	ibdknox: really :)
18:25	augustl	"To prevent session hash tampering, a digest is calculated from the session with a server-side secret and inserted into the end of the cookie."
18:25	jcrossley3	augustl: ibdknox: that's only the default for dev convenience. sadly, some leave it that way in production.
18:25	ibdknox	ah
18:25	augustl	in other words, signing
18:25	ibdknox	that's a new change
18:25	augustl	it's been there since 2.3 iirc
18:25	ibdknox	jcrossley3: yeah, cookiestore didn't used to be the default
18:25	ibdknox	I'm out of date :)
18:26	jcrossley3	ibdknox: the default used to be in the db, which had other problems.
18:27	vijaykiran	play! does same thing too (like RoR) saving "session" in a cookie
18:27	ibdknox	jcrossley3: yeah, being painfully slow was one of them lol
18:27	augustl	jcrossley3: why is it "sadly" that someone uses it in production?
18:28	jcrossley3	augustl: it's always a risk to store user data in the browser, but i take your point -- it depends on the data.
18:29	augustl	I guess there are situations where you don't even want to expose the user ID
18:29	ibdknox	in memory seems like a nice compromise
18:29	augustl	or more generally, want to store any user-specific information in a cookie
18:29	jcrossley3	i just meant that some folks accidentally store sensitive data due to the default.
18:32	jcrossley3	ibdknox: agree about in-memory, until you need replication
18:32	ibdknox	jcrossley3: sticky sessions
18:32	jcrossley3	that is a common choice, yes.
18:33	augustl	memcached makes sense
18:34	ibdknox	jcrossley3: at the point at which you need replication, it's time to use an in-memory store (redis or memcached)
18:34	ibdknox	which is pretty easy to do
18:35	ibdknox	writing a session-store is pretty simple :)
18:37	hiredman	jcrossley3 would prefer, I am sure, that you use infinispan
18:42	jcrossley3`	ibdknox: did you answer my last question? (i got bounced)
18:43	ibdknox_	jcrossley3`: I didn't see your question :)
18:43	jcrossley3`	[18:39] <jcrossley3> ibdknox: is redis or memcached what you meant when you first referred to "in memory", cuz i took you to mean "sharing ring's memory"?
18:43	jcrossley3`
18:43	ibdknox_	jcrossley3`: nope, I meant in process
18:44	ibdknox_	but you brought up the point of replication, at which point it's easy enough to just go out of process
18:44	ibdknox_	and use something like memcached
18:44	jcrossley3`	ibdknox_: right. does ring/noir support using memcached/redis as a session store?
18:45	ibdknox_	jcrossley3`: it supports anything you want if you write your own session store
18:45	ibdknox_	jcrossley3`: amalloy has a mongo one
18:45	ibdknox_	jcrossley3`: we have a postgres one
18:46	jcrossley3`	ibdknox_: so you're not aware of one written for memcached or redis?
18:47	ibdknox_	jcrossley3`: I don't know of one off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean there isn't one
18:48	amalloy	jcrossley3`: confirmation of how easy it is configure session-store backends: https://github.com/amalloy/mongo-session/blob/develop/src/mongo_session/core.clj is the whole library i wrote for doing it, and https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure/commit/1249c6d is the change i made to my app to use it
18:49	Raynes	https://github.com/Raynes/refheap/blob/develop/src/refheap/server.clj#L23 weeeeee
18:49	jcrossley3`	amalloy: perfect example, ty!
18:50	ibdknox_	has anyone used the new mongo library?
18:50	Raynes	Monger?
18:50	ibdknox_	yeah
18:50	Raynes	I've been thinking of moving refheap to it.
18:50	ibdknox_	it looks nicer
18:50	Raynes	Probably after the 1.0.0 release.
18:50	Raynes	Moving will be a bitch though.
18:50	Raynes	Plenty of queries/updates to screw up.
18:51	ibdknox_	lol
18:55	jcrossley3`	/nick jcrossley3
18:55	jcrossley3`
19:05	_carlos_	hi!
19:05	_carlos_	how am I supposed to use repl doc to find documentation about stuff installed inside a project by lein?
19:06	technomancy	(find-doc #"set")
19:06	technomancy	,(find-doc #"set")
19:06	clojurebot	-------------------------
19:06	clojurebot	clojure.core/flush-on-newline
19:06	clojurebot	When set to true, output will be flushed whenever a newline is printed.
19:06	clojurebot	Defaults to true.
19:06	clojurebot	-------------------------
19:06	clojurebot	clojure.core/loaded-libs
19:06	clojurebot	A ref to a sorted set of symbols representing loaded libs
19:06	clojurebot	-------------------------
19:06	clojurebot	clojure.core/print-dup
19:06	clojurebot	When set to logical true, objects will be printed in a way that preserves
19:06	ibdknox_	oh god
19:06	TimMc	ugh
19:06	technomancy	oh cripes
19:06	clojurebot	their...
19:07	technomancy	clojurebot: you had me panicking there for a minute.
19:07	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:08	_carlos_	technomancy: was that for me?
19:09	_carlos_	wait ._. you are the one who did this lein script right?
19:09	technomancy	I had some help.
19:09	TimMc	haha
19:10	technomancy	amalloy: hey, you use M-x slime-connect rather than jack-in right?
19:10	technomancy	it used to be that as long as slime-repl.el was loaded, M-x slime-connect would open a repl buffer
19:11	technomancy	but now I just get the connection opened without a repl, and M-x slime-repl opens some CL-USER> nonsense
19:11	technomancy	what did I break?
19:12	technomancy	and is it broken for you too?
19:13	_carlos_	technomancy: (find-doc #"drop-down") nil <- I get this I am sure I have hiccup installed, because it's not complaining about the name when running the app
19:13	technomancy	_carlos_: find-doc only works with code that has been loaded
19:14	_carlos_	technomancy: yeah, makes sense. thanks!
19:15	technomancy	sure
19:16	TimMc	Ah, it looks at ns-interns for all-ns
19:27	brehaut	TimMc: i love how easy it is to read the implementation of so much of clojures stuff.
19:28	brehaut	im pretty sure i know more about the internals of clojures functions in a few years of dabbling than i know about python after many years of serious use
19:28	alexbaranosky	brehaut, my thoughts exactly
19:29	gtrak	the scope of python's implementation is much broader than clojure's, comparatively, clojure is a thin layer over java i think
19:31	brehaut	gtrak: im not sure thats relevant or especially accurate
19:31	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
19:33	TimMc	Hmm, why don't I have clojure-jack-in... I bet I'm using an old repo site.
19:35	tmciver	TimMc: are you using marmalade as a repo?
19:36	tmciver	TimMc: I believe that's where you should get clojure-mode
19:37	_carlos_	after lein repl inside the project, I run (:require [hiccup.form-helpers :as form-helpers]) , but I get compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1) . something is escaping me
19:38	tmciver	_carlos_: did you do lein deps first?
19:38	tmciver	_carlos_: and do you have a version of hiccup listed in :dependencies in project.clj?
19:38	TimMc	tmciver: Right now I'm trying to figure out whehter it's bad that I have el-get commands in my .emacs
19:38	gtrak	brehaut: well I'm trying to run cloc on jython and clojure, that'd be more apples
19:39	gtrak	to apples
19:39	_carlos_	tmciver: no, I ran lein run, which copied alot of files. I thought it ran deps implicitly. probably I'm wrong, but anyways, form-helpers/drop-down name is recognized, so I assume it is loaded
19:40	_carlos_	tcrawley: form-helpers/drop-down name is recognized when running the web app
19:40	gtrak	brehaut: I also know some python and the semantics are much more involved than clojure imo, there's a lot more magic going on
19:40	brehaut	gtrak: thats exactly my point.
19:40	_carlos_	sorry, tmciver above, it was for you
19:40	tmciver	_carlos_: you may be right; not sure. If you're getting form-helpers, then it's loaded.
19:40	brehaut	gtrak: i can read clojure.core and understand it; the equivalent python code is much more magical
19:40	gtrak	brehaut: yea, we agree
19:41	gtrak	I just wanted to try to explain why
19:41	tmciver	_carlos_: ahh, it's not (:require . . . it's (require . . .
19:42	ibdknox	I can't tell you how many people I've seen run into that...
19:43	gtrak	brehaut: fyi, jython's at 97k lines of java and 83k lines of python
19:44	mdeboard	dat JPype
19:44	tmciver	TimMc: I'm not even sure what el-get is . . . it's spanish for 'the get' right?
19:44	gtrak	clojure has 35k lines of java
19:44	TimMc	tmciver: or elpa-get, dunno
19:45	TimMc	Something that pulls from a repo.
19:45	technomancy	tmciver: you shouldn't ever have to run lein deps by hand
19:45	technomancy	_carlos_: :require is meant for ns declarations; for repl use you want require
19:45	technomancy	without the colon
19:46	tmciver	technomancy: really? I don't usually use lein run.
19:46	technomancy	tmciver: for any task
19:46	technomancy	if it needs the deps, it will get them
19:46	Raynes	I use lein run more than I use my text editor.
19:46	ibdknox	technomancy: even if you update the project?
19:46	Raynes	It's just… it's just magical.
19:46	technomancy	ibdknox: as of 1.6.2, yes
19:46	ibdknox	hah, didn't know that
19:46	hiredman	or if you task you want to run is a lein plugin
19:47	TimMc	technomancy: Right, you don't have to run lein deps... you just have to delete lib. >_>
19:47	Raynes	technomancy: As soon as I get a chance, I'll set us up with a dependency on lein-newnew in Leiningen.
19:47	Raynes	technomancy: Don't want you to think I've forgotten or am being lazy or anything. I just haven't gotten around to it.
19:47	technomancy	ibdknox: just noticed I left it out of the release notes.
19:47	technomancy	which I'm sure you study thoroughly!
19:47	technomancy	TimMc: no, not even that
19:47	Raynes	It isn't like I haven't looked at your elisp for like a week and a half or anything like that. I'm not a bad person.
19:47	tmciver	technomancy: then you're to blame!
19:47	ibdknox	technomancy: study the kerning of each letter
19:47	technomancy	guys
19:47	technomancy	guys
19:47	TimMc	technomancy: Oh, is it schmott enough now?
19:47	technomancy	I just want someone to answer my slime question
19:48	technomancy	halp
19:48	ibdknox	~guards
19:48	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
19:48	Raynes	$guards
19:48	lazybot	SEIZE HIM!
19:48	technomancy	it checksums the concatenation of :dependencies and :dev-dependencies or whatever
19:49	technomancy	smartypants lein
19:49	hiredman	technomancy: that doesn't seem to work well if you delete a file from lib/
19:49	technomancy	seriously though, why does the slime-repl buffer not show up when I do M-x slime-connect. it used to do that, but then I got spoiled by jack-in and stopped paying attention.
19:49	technomancy	hiredman: true, unless you're also using :local-repo-classpath, in which case lib/ isn't even populated
19:49	hiredman	(because you are working on a mvn project and installed a new snapshot and what to pull it in)
19:50	tmciver	technomancy: it does for me (sometimes)
19:50	tmciver	sometimes I get an error that I don't understand.
19:50	technomancy	tmciver: the plot thickens!
19:51	hiredman	technomancy: interesting
19:51	tmciver	technomancy: it seems that sometimes when I ', quit' slime, swank continues to run and I can connect to it.
19:51	tmciver	I think that's what's happening anyways.
19:52	tmciver	But as with many errors I run into I just restart emacs and fuh-get abaht it!
19:52	_carlos_	(require [hiccup.form-helpers :as form-helpers]) CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: hiccup.form-helpers, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)
19:52	hiredman	'
19:52	_carlos_	probably I'm just doing something dumb..
19:53	ibdknox	_carlos_: you need to quote it '[hiccup...
19:53	_carlos_	hiredman: I need '?
19:53	_carlos_	ok
20:00	gtrak	brehaut, check it out: clojure: 35k lines java, 15k clj; jython: 97k java, 84k python, jruby: 191k java, 5k yacc, 1.5k ruby.
20:00	gtrak	no tests
20:00	_carlos_	thanks ibdknox, technomancy, I can require and read documentation properly now
20:00	ibdknox	so a 3-4x difference
20:00	gtrak	err, wait, I got the python one wrong
20:01	gtrak	94k java, 3k python
20:01	ibdknox	lol
20:01	ibdknox	2-4x then
20:03	ashafa	hello
20:05	_carlos_	hello
20:05	ashafa	Question ... is there a new way of setting main-cli-fn with a recently pulled clojurescript master?
20:05	yoklov	what do people use for 2d grids in clojure. vector-of-vectors is kind of… awkward to use
20:05	ashafa	sorry, this is fore nodejs
20:06	ashafa	for*
20:07	ibdknox	yoklov: depends on what you're doing with it, you can use a map with positions as keys {[0 0] "x" [0 1] "y"}
20:08	yoklov	well it's going to be representing a square that's totally full
20:08	yoklov	so thats probably not that good.
20:08	ibdknox	it's easy enough to flatten it
20:08	brehaut	gtrak: thats pretty interesting
20:10	yoklov	hrm.
20:10	yoklov	you know that might actually be really convenient.
20:10	yoklov	and they're probably not going to be significantly higher than 20 by 20 so performance isn't a big issue.
20:10	ibdknox	if I remember right, that's what I did for the sudoku solver I wrote
20:11	ibdknox	it was straightforward
20:11	yoklov	yeah, this is for a small game
20:11	ashafa	Anyone use the new clojurescript master with nodejs?
20:11	ibdknox	ashafa: I don't know of many folks using CLJS with node yet
20:12	ashafa	I thought so...
20:13	ashafa	http://mmcgrana.github.com/2011/09/clojurescript-nodejs.html this worked perfectly till I pulled latest from github
20:13	ashafa	*til
20:15	ibdknox	ashafa: the property syntax changed
20:15	ibdknox	ashafa: so things like (.end x) need to be (.-end x)
20:17	ashafa	ibdknox: you, i knew about that and changed my code base accordingly... but the error i'm getting is genereated by core
20:17	ashafa	sorry typing is off
20:18	ashafa	(= ibdknox swanodette)
20:19	ashafa	?
20:19	ashafa	cause I used that same example earlier on twitter
20:20	ashafa	when swanodette was helping me out
20:24	ashafa	thanks all... i'll do more investigating when I have the chance
20:31	ibdknox	ashafa: no, I'm not swanodette :) that would be dnolen
20:33	ashafa	ibdknox: sorry about that... it seems core has changed but my compiler is still emitting old js
20:34	ashafa	maybe i need to delete my repo and re-bootstrap
20:36	yoklov	if i do something like (derive ::foo ::bar) in one namespace (ns1) and use ns1 in another (ns2), i then need to call refer to those by :ns1/foo and :ns1/bar in order to be talking about the same thing, right?
20:39	ashafa	i take that baske
20:39	ashafa	back
20:41	yoklov	err, really i just want to know where i can learn more about hierarchies :/
20:41	yoklov	even some code that uses them a lot
20:42	ashafa	ok found the problem
20:42	ashafa	line 8 of nodejscli.cljs needs to change to (apply cljs.core/main-cli-fn (drop 2 (.-argv nodejs/process)))
20:43	ashafa	will start the github process
20:45	priv_cooper	What would you say is the best tutorial for setting up clojure/swank/slime with aquamacs?
20:45	babilen	yoklov: Joy of Clojure and Clojure in Action have good chapters on it.
20:45	hiredman	don't
20:45	babilen	heh
20:45	yoklov	oh i think i have one of those
20:45	hiredman	priv_cooper: http://emacsformacosx.com/ is what you want
20:46	yoklov	^^^^^^
20:46	yoklov	that is really true.
20:48	priv_cooper	hiredman: Thanks
20:50	`fogus	ashafa: Just pushed the node.js changes
20:51	ibdknox	when doing read-string/eval is there a way to preserve line numbering such that an exception would still reference lines correctly?
20:51	ibdknox	people who know the compiler well ^
20:54	_carlos_	its really hard for me to find out what is the second argument of hiccup.form-helpers/drop-down. am I missing something reading the doc?
20:55	hiredman	ibdknox: you can try putting :line metadata on the form passed to eval
20:56	brehaut	_carlos_: its a seq of the options in the dropdown
20:56	_carlos_	brehaut: how did you find out?
20:57	brehaut	_carlos_: i looked at the source
20:57	brehaut	_carlos_: https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup/blob/master/src/hiccup/form_helpers.clj#L76-91
20:57	ibdknox	hiredman: no luck :(
20:58	hiredman	,(eval '[do 1])
20:58	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
20:58	brehaut	_carlos_ looks like (drop-down "foo" ["a" "b"]) and (drop-down "foo" [{:name "a" :id "1"} {:name "b" :id "23"}]) are both valid ways to use it
20:59	brehaut	wait. screwed that up. second should be (drop-down "foo" [["a" "1"] ["b" "23"]])
21:19	_carlos_	brehaut: thanks, that worked
21:21	_carlos_	its time to continue studying the language. I still look at the language like I'm seeing just alot of parentheses
21:22	yoklov	i miss the parentheses when i program in non-lisps
21:34	TimMc	How do I tell which library is the culprit for a "not declared dynamic" warning?
21:34	TimMc	No namespace is provided in the warning.
21:35	TimMc	I guess creating an uberjar, unzipping it, and grepping that will have to do.
21:35	babilen	TimMc: Isn't the var name included in the warning? You might be able to track it down by using that.
21:36	babilen	yeah, something like that :) (not very elegant, but it probably works)
21:58	yoklov	is it frowned upon to have a bunch of maps with :type keys?
21:59	yoklov	should i just be using defrecord
22:01	TimMc	yoklov: No, maps are fine.
22:02	TimMc	They're recommended over defrecord (unless you need interop).
22:02	yoklov	and using a :type tag isn't bad?
22:03	TimMc	I don't see why it would be.
22:06	TimMc	lancepantz: Oh good, I see clj-json is getting 1.3-ified. Any idea when that will be released?
22:12	yoklov	oh damn.
22:12	yoklov	i don't even have the _slighest clue_ how to write a flood fill functionally.
22:12	TimMc	yoklov: Want a hint?
22:12	yoklov	badly.
22:13	TimMc	yoklov: Are you familiar with the concept of a worklist?
22:13	yoklov	oh, yeah.
22:13	yoklov	use a queue?
22:13	yoklov	that makes sense.
22:13	TimMc	I would use a set, I guess.
22:13	TimMc	But a queue would probably be more efficient, and prettier if it is graphical.
22:14	yoklov	it's not
22:14	TimMc	Well, I'd say use two sets -- a completed set and a todo set.
22:15	yoklov	hm
22:16	TimMc	yoklov: Are you actually modifying, say, an image, or are you just gathering the set of points in the fill?
22:17	yoklov	neither i'm setting every point in a 2d array to be a certain thing. it's for a game, the grid is a room the value i'm setting is the floor tiles
22:18	yoklov	typically its been more expressive/easier for me to implement describing rooms in terms of bitmap operations (e.g. (fill room floor) (outline room wall))
22:18	TimMc	You start with both sets empty and a current element. Process the current element. For each neighbor, if it is not in the completed set, add it to the worklist. Add the current element to the completed set.
22:18	TimMc	Recur with the first of the worklist, dropping it from that set.
22:18	yoklov	right, i've done it imperatively before
22:18	yoklov	w/o recursion
22:19	yoklov	i'm just wondering if this might be vastly harder in clojure than, say, just drawing ascii art to represent it
22:19	yoklov	which seems very likely.
22:19	TimMc	You'll probably end up with a little library of grid operations.
22:22	yoklov	that's certainly true
22:22	TimMc	Quick way to read a SQL table out as a collection of records?
22:27	TimMc	Oh, doall on a sql/with-query-results result seems to do it!
22:31	yoklov	\# is the '#' character in clojure, right?
22:31	yoklov	emacs seems to balk at the idea of allowing me to type it.
22:33	jodaro	oh, logging
22:34	TimMc	yoklov: Mine isn't giving me any trouble.
22:36	yoklov	hm.
22:37	yoklov	yeah, i must have been mistaken, i can't get it to happen again.
23:28	yoklov	well thats all the code i got in me tonight
23:28	yoklov	thanks for all the help
23:40	guns	If I wanted to map values of a hashmap and return a hashmap, is (into {} (map λ hm)) an optimal way to do it, or do I use assoc?
23:44	TimMc	map
23:44	TimMc	'for can also be nice, since it has destructuring.
23:44	guns	for with assoc?
23:44	guns	into {} is too roundabout?
23:45	TimMc	(into {} (for [[k v] hm] ...))
23:45	guns	TimMc: Oh that's nice
23:45	guns	ty
23:47	TimMc	guns: (zipmap (keys hm) (map λ (vals hm)))
23:47	guns	TimMc: oh like interleave, but → hashmap
23:47	guns	nice