#clojure – 2011-12-15

2011-12-15

00:11	wolfjb	clojure-contrib seems to be only at 1.2.0 while clojure is at 1.3.0, am I missing something?
00:12	TimMc	wolfjb: contrib is dead
00:12	TimMc	clojurebot: What happened to contrib?
00:12	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
00:12	TimMc	clojurebot: What happened to clojure.contrib?
00:12	clojurebot	excusez-moi
00:12	TimMc	terrible bot
00:13	wolfjb	ah, so I don't need it then?
00:14	TimMc	wolfjb: Right, just pick up what you need as individual packages. http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
00:14	TimMc	Unfortunately, not everything made the transition -- some were already not being maintained. That's part of the reason for the splitting, I think.
00:15	wolfjb	ok, thanks!
00:15	wolfjb	that explains a lot
00:16	alexbaranosky	does anyone know if the shortcircuiting threading operators made it into a new contrib library? -?> -?>> etc
00:17	cemerick	core.incubator
00:17	alexbaranosky	cemerick, thanks
00:18	wolfjb	well, shucks, contrib.except isn't maintained
00:18	wolfjb	:(
00:22	TimMc	What did you want from there?
00:22	wolfjb	throw-if
00:25	TimMc	wolfjb: Looks like a pretty small lib. I bet it could easily be maintained as 1.2 and 1.3 compatible.
00:26	wolfjb	I wouldn't know how to do it, but I'd be happy to help
00:26	wolfjb	I've done lisp in the past and this is my first foray into clojure
00:27	wolfjb	I wonder, though, if it would be superseded by Slingshot ?
00:30	wolfjb	hmm... nevermind, Slingshot seems to be try/catch on steroids or something cool like that
00:32	TimMc	slingshot?
00:32	clojurebot	slingshot is the successor to clojure.contrib.condition: https://github.com/scgilardi/slingshot
00:32	TimMc	OK, clojurebot, I guess you're not so terrible.
00:33	TimMc	Raynes: I removed clojail from our copy and called eval in the client-side handler and now it's a glorified JS REPL. :-P
00:33	TimMc	one that round-trips through a server for no reason
00:40	wolfjb	I keep getting a warning about classpath not declared dynamic, but when I add the "fix" to project.clj (ala ^:dynamic classpath) then lein compile throws an illegal argument exception No value supplied for key: classpath
00:40	wolfjb	why is that?
00:48	wolfjb	ok, nevermind again. lein upgrade seems to have fixed it
00:49	wolfjb	as well as adding an exclusion for org.clojure/clojure for swank-clojure
01:34	mindbender	why are the ritz devs do hard to reach?
01:34	mindbender	*so
02:00	pyr	mindbender: you'll find them in pallet
02:01	pyr	#pallet i mean
02:01	pyr	but this is the wrong TZ
02:01	mindbender	pyr: thanks. what TZ will be appropriate
03:40	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:42	kral	'morning
03:42	kral	are clojure.contrib deprecated?
03:43	pyr	yes
03:43	pyr	it is now split in several support libraries
03:43	pyr	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
03:44	kral	pyr: ty
03:44	pyr	this is only valid for clojure 1.3 and later releases
03:45	kral	sure
03:47	pyr	that and the integer changes make up for most of the work adapting stuff to clojure 1.3
03:52	kral	i'm going to start with 1.3 so is not a great issue for me, i think
03:57	pyr	if you're going from scratch, definitely go with 1.3
03:58	pyr	you'll find some issues in your dependency chain
03:58	pyr	but no showstoppers
04:12	kral	ty for assistance pyr
04:12	pyr	np
04:25	mindbender	in the book growing object oriented software, can CI servers do the work of end to end testing. And is the authors idea of a walking skeleton analogous to a hello world program?
04:27	clgv	mindbender: I don't know the book. But to me it's almost sure that a "hello world program" can't be analogous to "continous integration tests" or "testing in general".
04:28	clgv	to me "hello world program" means "here I show you a few basics of that programming language. you can compare it to the examples you know from other languages."
04:29	mindbender	clgv: the end-to-end testing as talked about in the book is about automating deployment. while the context of hello-world program is more like a POC where you show mysql works with clojure and swing
04:30	mindbender	the book is a very interesting read maybe you should google it up to have an idea
04:30	clgv	mindbender: if any allegedly advanced concept is analogous to a "hello world program" it's certainly not advanced and not of much use ;)
04:31	mindbender	I was hoping clojure could provide us with a similar model of building software
04:32	clgv	mindbender: there is support for testing which surely can be done automatically and integrated within hudson or similar CI-software. I dont know if the latter integration already has a good clojure wrapper
04:33	mindbender	yes there is support but not one well documented like this one in terms of pulling the pieces together
04:34	clgv	there some different libraries for testing with clojure. the built-in one is clojure.test
04:35	clgv	there is also "midje" and "lazytest" - you should be able to find usage examples on their github pages or via google
04:36	clgv	I did test with clojure.test since that was described in one of the books I read on clojure
04:42	mindbender	clgv: look at this question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3127194/proper-continuous-integration-and-continuous-deployment-with-git-and-heroku. These are the kind of things I'm intersted in knowing about and more. If you read this book you will also get the idea of the walking skeleton for which I will like to see examples of skeletal frameworks we can take advantage of and customize rather than having to reinvent the wheel
04:44	clgv	mindbender: in general you can use every java library there is to avoid reinventing the wheel in clojure. in some cases you might benefit from building a clojure layer in front of the lib for better clojure-like syntax.
04:44	clgv	so you can extend your search to java libs and frameworks
04:45	mindbender	clgv: what about frameworks
04:46	clgv	java ones I meant. Hudson (or its new fork name) is a solution for CI
04:46	clgv	for example.
04:49	pyr	mindbender: FYI a mix of jenkins + midje + pallet does the trick for end-to-end automation
04:50	mindbender	pyr: that's a head-start towards where I want to be... checking it out
04:51	clgv	pyr: ah right. pallet for deployment?
06:09	pyr	clgv: yes
06:09	pyr	clgv: deployment and C&C
08:05	jheander	good morning!
08:06	jheander	what's the current take on automatic re-testing on clojure today?
08:06	jheander	is lazytest alive/active?
08:07	G0SUB	jheander: I don't think so.
08:08	G0SUB	jheander: clojure.test, test.generative & midje are the good options at the moment.
08:09	jheander	is there any way to set up automatic re-testing of changed files with clojure.test? I like the very simple structure of clojure.test, but would like to reduce the cycle times
08:37	kephale	amalloy_: two functions that could be useful in ordered.set: set (replace a member with a new member at the same position) and index (what is the index of this member)
08:54	pyr	hi #clojure
08:55	pyr	if i want to build a jar with multiple classes that have a -main
08:55	pyr	how do I go about it
08:55	clgv	,(println "hi pyr")
08:55	clojurebot	hi pyr
08:55	pyr	now that's a warm welcome
08:56	clgv	java -jar Your.jar ClassOne
08:56	clgv	that should work afaik
08:56	pyr	it doesn't seem to
08:56	pyr	i use my namespace path as the class
08:56	pyr	maybe i should explicitly name the class
08:56	pyr	(I get NoClassDefFound exceptions)
08:57	kotarak	java -cp your.jar ClassOne maybe?
08:57	pyr	i tried this
08:58	pyr	ok, i have to specify :aot
08:58	clgv	kotarak: ah right. my error.
08:58	kotarak	pyr: you actually AOT-compiled your namespace
08:59	pyr	i works with :aot set to my namespaces
09:40	AWizzArd	I would like to serve static content with moustache. Is there a more idiomatic way to do this then (app ["html" "file.html"] my-handler) (defn my-handler [req] (ring.util.response/resource-response "/web/html/file.html")) ?
09:40	AWizzArd	then --> than
09:44	kotarak	AWizzArd: you can use any ring handler, now? (app ["html"] ring/static-content-handler-I-forgot-then-name-of)
09:45	kotarak	s/now/no/
10:08	gtrak`	wasn't there a clojure library that did more than just the libvirt java bindings?
10:09	gtrak`	ah, I found it, vmfest
10:38	TimMc	&(reify Object (getClass [_] Long))
10:38	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: getClass
10:38	TimMc	Not the best error message...
10:38	TimMc	The problem is actually that getClass is final.
10:40	TimMc	I so don't feel like filing a Jirum for this.
10:41	mefesto	is there a way to have hiccup output html using indentation?
10:42	mefesto	hiccup pprint just for readability of output while developing
10:43	ordnungswidrig	Class of (defn foo!) and (defn foo_BANG_) is identical. Does this lead to any problems?
10:46	TimMc	ordnungswidrig: It isn't double-underscore for the second?
10:46	ordnungswidrig	TimMc: it'd tought it was but it's foo_BANG_
10:47	ordnungswidrig	not to bad but a wonder
10:48	TimMc	&(apply = (map munge ["!" "_BANG_"]))
10:48	lazybot	⇒ true
10:48	TimMc	ew
10:50	TimMc	&(apply = (map munge ["-" "_"]))
10:50	lazybot	⇒ true
10:51	TimMc	I guess it's too late to change that.
10:53	ordnungswidrig	TimMc: yes, I think it is.
10:53	ordnungswidrig	I just wondered if they will be problems because of that, e.g. when AOTing
10:58	TimMc	I'm having trouble figuring out a place it would matter.
10:58	TimMc	&(map munge ["A+B" "A_PLUS_B"])
10:58	lazybot	⇒ ("A_PLUS_B" "A_PLUS_B")
10:58	TimMc	there we go
11:03	TimMc	I guess as long as you aren't in the habit of using UPPER_CASE var names you're good.
11:04	TimMc	fn names, specifically
11:08	jcromartie	h
11:08	jcromartie	hi
11:08	jcromartie	what's the state of the art with Clojure FizzBuzz? :)
11:08	jcromartie	I'm in the mood
11:09	gtrak`	jcromartie, try counting with lambdas
11:10	gtrak`	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding
11:12	jcromartie	gtrak`: Church numerals are bad for code golf
11:12	TimMc	clojure.core/fizzbuzz
11:12	TimMc	It used to be in contrib.
11:14	TimMc	jcromartie: http://web.archive.org/web/20090602074545/http://www.cliff.biffle.org/esoterica/hq9plus.html
11:15	jcromartie	hah, hilarious
11:16	AWizzArd	~seen cgrand
11:16	clojurebot	cgrand was last seen joining #clojure, 32992 minutes ago
11:16	TimMc	jcromartie: And of course, the object-oriented version: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/hq9plusplus.html (which is the first one I learned about)
11:16	AWizzArd	~(/ 32992 60 24.0)
11:16	clojurebot	eg, https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging is the new version of clojure.contrib.logging
11:21	TimMc	,(/ 32992 60 24.0)
11:21	clojurebot	22.91111111111111
11:26	jcromartie	(defn fb[ns](doseq[w(map(fn[n](keep(fn[[d x]](when(zero?(mod n d))x)){1 n 2"fizz"3"buzz"}))ns)](apply println w)))
11:26	jcromartie	that's my best golfing so far
11:28	TimMc	argh, don't remove spaces
11:28	jcromartie	TimMc: I thought that was the whole point
11:31	jcromartie	I mean if we're talking fizz buzz code golf here
11:37	TimMc	I prefer to count forms.
11:37	TimMc	#(+ 1 2) is 4 forms
11:37	TimMc	(or is it 5?)
11:39	Borkdude	does anyone know if this is possible in emacs? http://superuser.com/questions/368341/emacs-two-frames-for-one-file-seemless-scrolling
11:40	TimMc	Split screen with yoked scrolling>
11:40	TimMc	interesting question
11:40	cemerick	Is it true that package.el is included in Emacs 24?
11:40	cemerick	(but was not in 23, that is?)
11:40	Borkdude	oh fuck, I just meant "buffers" instead of "frames"
11:41	TimMc	Borkdude: Actually, you mean windows.
11:41	TimMc	1 file, 1 buffer, 2 windows.
11:41	Borkdude	ah yes, hm.
11:42	raek	cemerick: yes
11:42	cemerick	thanks
11:42	jcromartie	Borkdude: there's follow mode
11:43	jcromartie	answered :)
11:43	jcromartie	PLZ UPVOTE AND ACCEPT MY CODES THX
11:43	Borkdude	jcromartie: great :)
11:44	cemerick	I'm surprised there's not emacs stack exchange site.
11:45	Borkdude	jcromartie: will do
11:45	Borkdude	cemerick: me as well
11:45	Borkdude	jcromartie: can only accept after so many minutes
12:22	devn	cemerick: yes it's true, but IIRC the package.el that is included doesn't support multiple package sources
12:22	devn	so if you want marmalade I think you'll need a fresher version
12:24	raek	really?
12:25	cemerick	I think I was able to use marmalade without a problem?
12:25	raek	I know that the version from ELPA did not have multiple repo support
12:26	hiredman	cemerick: it seems like you are much more likely to get a reliable answer about emacs questions from #emacs
12:58	bartek1	hello, is there a function f that to this: (f [2] [2 3]) -> [2 3 3] ?
12:59	bartek1	sorry
12:59	bartek1	-> [2 2 3]
13:01	Bronsa	,(apply conj [2] [2 3])
13:01	clojurebot	[2 2 3]
13:01	raek	,(into [2] [2 3])
13:01	clojurebot	[2 2 3]
13:01	bartek1	thanks :)
13:01	Bronsa	thanks clojurebot
13:01	TimMc	into might be faster
13:02	TimMc	I don't know if conj with multiple additions uses transients.
13:06	compmstr	Does anyone know why (apply + (map * a b)) is roughly 5x slower than doing the same thing with loop/recur?
13:06	technomancy_	laziness overhead prolly?
13:06	compmstr	I tried putting lazyness into the loop version, ran just a little slower
13:06	raek	allocations for the cons cells?
13:08	hiredman	compmstr: the loop version also most likely inlines * and +
13:08	technomancy_	oh, of course
13:08	technomancy_	HOFing + is going to kill perf
13:09	compmstr	what does HOFing mean?
13:09	hiredman	(reduce #(+ % %2) (map #(* % %2) a b)) may also be faster
13:09	technomancy_	higher-order-functioning
13:09	compmstr	ah
13:11	hiredman	if you pretend clojure is a lisp2 for certain functions you get better performance
13:12	compmstr	hmm, still roughly 5x slower with reduce/map using the lambdas
13:12	hiredman	compmstr: most likely the allocation overhead then
13:12	compmstr	It may well be the allocation of the list from map though, since the loop version just uses an accumulator
13:12	compmstr	thanks
13:15	Scriptor	morning
13:17	duck1123	does anyone know what it will take to get clout to match paths like "/keywords/:name.:format" again? The new version broke a lot of my old code
13:19	hiredman	duck1123: https://github.com/weavejester/clout/commit/affbad08765a7debe4f034ba4e20e2185fd89637
13:23	amalloy	on 1.3, isn't the difference that loop/recur can work entirely with primitives? when you use map/reduce you have to box them and unbox every time you want to do math
13:24	amalloy	(technomancy_, hiredman, compmstr)
13:24	duck1123	hiredman: I'm not sure I follow, are you suggesting I undo that commit?
13:25	compmstr	amalloy: I'm not sure, does nth do boxing? That's what I use to access the elements of the seq
13:26	hiredman	compmstr: generally function calls all box
13:27	hiredman	and numbers in collections are also always boxed (there are some vectors that can hold primitives)
13:28	dnolen	compmstr: numbers are always boxed as they are passed into functions, unless the function takes primitives, or you have already coerced the arguments to primitives for the inlineable fns (like +)
13:28	dnolen	compmstr: inlining is not possible (yet) w/ higher order usage.
13:28	compmstr	ah, ok
13:29	dnolen	(+ 1 2), is inlineable and arg are primitive in Clojure 1.3
13:29	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
13:29	hiredman	if you have a (+ a b) and the compiler can tell that a and b are both longs, it well replace it with an ladd
13:29	hiredman	(jvm long add instruction)
13:29	dnolen	(map + [1 2]), 1 and 2 are boxed in the collection, + is not inlineable
13:30	hiredman	which is much faster than the normal function call path
13:30	compmstr	That makes a lot of sense now, thanks
13:30	dnolen	compmstr: so as far as why loop/recur is so much faster than map, it's not that map is slow, and I think the JVM can even optimize those allocations well. it's that w/ loop recur JVM can just magically inline everything.
13:30	hiredman	Var.getRawRoot + IFn.invoke + Numbers.add + ladd
13:31	hiredman	dnolen: the clojure compiler can magically inline everything (which does wonders for the jvm too)
13:32	dnolen	compmstr: it's illustrative to compare the same type of operations in Scala - the numbers for higher order ops on collections are pretty similar.
13:32	dnolen	hiredman: Clojure inlines, the JVM inlines.
13:32	hiredman	sure
13:32	dnolen	hiredman: yes
13:32	dnolen	I meant to agree
13:32	hiredman	alright
13:32	hiredman	:)
13:34	hiredman	dnolen: can't they leverage the type system to help them do stream fusion like haskell?
13:35	dnolen	hiredman: I suppose they could, but I haven't seen anything like that yet.
13:35	hiredman	maybe I just have optimizations like stream fusions just tired too much to static typing in my mind
13:56	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/github-userid-percentile.html
13:59	tsdh	Hi. Can anyone explain why my function errors with "nth not supported"? Code & error at http://pastebin.com/7NSji1rn
13:59	tsdh	Line 38 is actually the line with the (defn ...
14:00	hiredman	nth not supported on this type: TreeImpl
14:00	hiredman	you are calling nth on an instance of TreeImpl somewhere, and TreeImpl doesn't have the right interfaces/methods to support nth
14:02	tsdh	hiredman: Yeah, but its a varargs list, so I'd expect the arg after & to be a list where the destructuring form [t] takes the first element of the list. See my second call where it actually does exactly that, but it works only the first time.
14:03	hiredman	tsdh: recur doesn't do destructuring
14:03	hiredman	well, I should say, recur doesn't do varargs
14:03	amalloy	right. the third arg is a seq
14:04	hiredman	if x is bound to a list, when you recur and rebind x you should pass an x
14:04	hiredman	er a list
14:04	mrevil	I'm exposing a clojure API via REST, and I'm trying to do some input validation, how do I check if something is of type String, or is enumerable?
14:05	hiredman	(doc string?)
14:05	amalloy	(this is not actually true, but:) the compiler transforms (snoc a b c d) into (snoc a b [c d]). it doesn't do that when recurring, because you're supposed to know how many args you're passing
14:05	clojurebot	"([x]); Return true if x is a String"
14:05	tsdh	hiredman, amalloy: Indeed. Changing to (recur ... [nt]) does the trick...
14:06	amalloy	using & [x] for an optional arg defaulting to nil is kinda gross anyway. i mean, it's convenient, but it's evil
14:07	tsdh	amalloy: Yeah, but my function is actually a macro expansion, and the macro would become pretty hard if I supported many the complete defn interface with overloading...
14:09	amalloy	(a) i don't really buy that, (b) it's already apparently hard enough that you had to ask in #clojure and wrap multiple things in vectors for no "obvious" reason
14:09	amalloy	but of course (c) you can write whatever code you want without worrying about my opinion
14:11	TimMc	technomancy: percentile... as in, what percent of the github employees have had accounts longer than the given ID has?
14:11	technomancy	TimMc: right-o
14:12	technomancy	the great thing about your github id percentile score is that even though it starts at 100 it can only go down over time.
14:14	tsdh	amalloy: (a) Maybe I'm missing something, but don't I need to get my macro args as "name & args" and then test each and every component in args for its type to determine if an optional docstring is given and so forth? (b) the macro is pretty easy, it's just that the expansion looked correct to me, (c) I appreciate your opinions.
14:16	amalloy	tsdh: i can't answer (a) without knowing what your macro actually is. but you might be interested in tools.macro/name-with-attributes to parse out the docstring &c
14:17	amalloy	technomancy: whaaaaa? surely it can go up if they fire someone who joined after you
14:17	tsdh	amalloy: I'll check that, thanks.
14:17	technomancy	amalloy: oh, derp. yes.
14:18	amalloy	technomancy: time to make that a heroku app, btw
14:18	technomancy	amalloy: awesome; let me know how it goes
14:18	technomancy	noir?
14:18	clojurebot	noir is great
14:18	technomancy	clojurebot: that's just your opinion bro
14:18	clojurebot	bartj: it's not broken. Unless you know the performance hit there is actually a problem, I'd recommend leaving it alone.
14:18	technomancy	wise words.
14:20	amalloy	technomancy: heroku just...sent me an activation link in an email, except it's not actually an http link? i have to copy/paste this to my browser, really?
14:20	cemerick	Raynes: What is the canonical clojail repo? Raynes/clojail points to the one under cogniitivedissonance, but flatland/clojail has the latest commits…
14:20	amalloy	cemerick: flatland
14:20	technomancy	amalloy: not our fault your MUA sucks. =)
14:20	amalloy	technomancy: no! the other links in the email are real links!
14:21	technomancy	oh; we send out HTML email by default? =(
14:21	amalloy	yes
14:21	technomancy	dang it
14:21	amalloy	and all but that one link are wrapped in <a>
14:21	amalloy	my MUA does suck though
14:21	amalloy	in your defense
14:22	technomancy	if you forward me the email I'll raise it on the DX team
14:22	noncom	hello, friends! a newb question follows: i want to use eclipse counterclockwise to code with clojure. however the ccw eclipse plugin is still about clojure 1.2. it is known to me that much has changed in version 1.3. so do i lose much if i use the ccw plugin and clojure 1.2 with it?
14:22	pjstadig	(percentile "pjstadig") ; => 49
14:22	technomancy	we have a few guys who are paid to obsess about that kind of stuff
14:22	pjstadig	is that good or bad?
14:23	technomancy	pjstadig: neither?
14:23	technomancy	it's median
14:23	pjstadig	i'm average?
14:23	pjstadig	on average people think they're above average
14:24	cemerick	amalloy: thanks; might want to start dropping repos or something ;-) /cc Raynes
14:25	technomancy	cemerick: but that won't help Clojure win on the github languages high-score board
14:25	cemerick	amalloy: I actually use & [x] all the time :-P
14:25	amalloy	cemerick: so do i. like i said it's easy, but it's evil :P
14:25	cemerick	technomancy: you're right, I'm optimizing for the wrong things again
14:25	noncom	guys, am i losing much if i program with clojure 1.2 instead of 1.3?
14:27	amalloy	noncom: seancorfield sheds a single tear every time someone uses 1.2. but your tear will be a drop in the bucket, so...
14:27	pjstadig	noncom: if you need much of what is in 1.3, then yes. if not, then no
14:28	technomancy	noncom: only if you want insane speed out of numeric ops
14:29	TimMc	noncom: If you don't have a compelling reason to use 1.2, go with 1.3 -- especially if you are writing something other people might want to use.
14:30	dnolen	noncom: I would not program in 1.2 unless there's some library that hasn't been ported that you need.
14:31	duck1123	even if you're going 1.2, still stay away from monolithic contrib
14:32	noncom	yeah, i have made a little research and going with 1.2 seemed like evil after that. to bad that the clojure plugin for my favorite ide is not updated (((
14:33	noncom	you confirm what it seemed.
14:35	dnolen	noncom: it seems like ccw might work w/ 1.3 from the notes on the project page - have you tried it?
14:36	cemerick	ccw works with any version Clojure project, 1.1 - 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT.
14:37	cemerick	I think it still defaults projects to 1.2, but there's no reason to stay with that default if you care otherwise.
14:37	cemerick	ccw itself is implemented using Clojure 1.2, but that doesn't affect what version of Clojure you can use.
14:38	cemerick	noncom: ^^
14:39	noncom	wow, i have not tried putting 1.3 inside, the directions are too vague and i am too incompetent to dig in eclipse internals
14:41	cemerick	eclipse internals?
14:41	cemerick	noncom: how did you create your project?
14:41	Raynes	cemerick: What are you using clojail for?
14:41	cemerick	Raynes: Nothing, just wanted the link correct for the book.
14:42	Raynes	Okay, why are you linking to it from your book then? :P
14:42	noncom	cemerick: i use the File->New->Other->Clojure->Clojure Project wizard.
14:42	TimMc	Raynes: Every book should link to Clojail.
14:43	cemerick	Raynes: A footnote talking about how network REPLs have not authentication or authorization controls.
14:43	cemerick	s/not/no
14:44	Raynes	cemerick: Hot.
14:44	cemerick	noncom: OK, so ccw added Clojure 1.2 jars to your project's build path.
14:45	cemerick	You just need to get Clojure 1.3, and replace the 1.2 references with ones to the 1.3 jar.
14:46	Raynes	Whoa.
14:46	Raynes	I think it just set in that clojail is going to be linked in a book.
14:46	noncom	cemerick: wow, i did not think of that because of them telling about problems with nREPL whatever it is
14:46	TimMc	Raynes: Don't move that repo!
14:46	Raynes	Never.
14:46	cemerick	noncom: What problems with nREPL?
14:49	noncom	cemerick: facepalm to me, i admit i was not very descreet
14:50	cemerick	no worries — give things a roll upgrading to Clojure 1.3, and if there are any problems, either ping me here, or send a msg to the ccw ML.
14:50	noncom	i have just checked the installed software section and it says nREPL 0.0.5
14:50	cemerick	Yup, that's ok. :-)
14:54	cemerick	Raynes: even worse are old repos linked in search engines
14:54	cemerick	:-P
14:54	cemerick	ddg points to Raynes/clojail
14:54	cemerick	FWIW
14:54	Raynes	cemerick: I just need to add links.
14:54	Raynes	The cogdis repo can go, I think.
14:55	cemerick	I'd add a final commit that rm's everything but a single link in a README.
14:55	cemerick	makes it hard to miss, i.e. https://github.com/cemerick/nREPL
14:57	tsdh	amalloy: You were right. It wasn't that hard to teach my macro working with overloaded argument lists. ;-)
14:58	noncom	cemerick: thank you and other people for helping! i guess it is that stereotype, that i am coming from the oop world, that weights on me, paralyzing in fear when standing in front of anything that mentions 'functional', rendering me faint and helpless. and many other programmers too. however, i feel functional programming as something very attractive and incresingly significant in today and in future. thank good people for sharing!
15:00	cemerick	noncom: I take it you're 1.3-ready now. :-)
15:00	cemerick	Spread the good word. ;-)
15:06	amalloy	hooray for heroku: http://electric-sunrise-7335.herokuapp.com/technomancy
15:06	technomancy	amalloy: oh man... I was literally going to do that right after lunch.
15:07	technomancy	hilarious
15:07	amalloy	<technomancy> amalloy: awesome; let me know how it goes
15:07	amalloy	<amalloy, secretly> ;; challenge accepted, bro
15:11	raek	what does it measure?
15:11	amalloy	raek: http://p.hagelb.org/github-userid-percentile.html - it was my first heroku app so i just got up something barebones
15:12	cemerick	great, more metrics for me to suck at
15:12	amalloy	cemerick: i bet you're in better shape than i am
15:13	TimMc	76 for me
15:14	raek	so it's like a (non-linear) mesure of how early you joined github?
15:14	TimMc	raek: what percent of github employees have an account older than yours
15:14	amalloy	TimMc: i've got an embarrassing 87%
15:15	amalloy	raek: fwiw, just updated the app with a description
15:15	raek	81% for me...
15:16	amalloy	c'mon, there's gotta be someone newer than me
15:17	technomancy	amalloy: needs some styling and a splash page; collab me and I'll see about adding that after noms.
15:17	amalloy	technomancy: yeah, i hate webdev. https://github.com/amalloy/github-percentile is all yours if you want it to be pretty
15:18	amalloy	if you want collab rights of some kind on heroku, i don't know what that means
15:19	technomancy	$ heroku sharing:add phil.hagelberg@heroku.com
15:19	technomancy	but I can just go through pull requests
15:20	technomancy	that's like the one common thing I haven't added to lein-heroku yet
15:21	tmciver	92. Ha! Beat that!
15:21	Raynes	amalloy: org/members will probably only return members up to 30.
15:21	noncom	cemerick: yeah, i will!))) tomorrow i guess, it is too late here. i will see sweet dreams about clojure and other lisps! and prolog.
15:22	noncom	haha)
15:22	Raynes	I haven't added lazy seqifying yet.
15:23	technomancy	Raynes: actually gives me 55, which I think is right
15:24	mindbender	It's just so problematic getting swank-clojure or ritz to work with emacs.. now I'm getting the famous (cl-assertion-failed (keywordp module)).. I can't remember how I resolved it the last time. Can someone please tell me how to get rid of all slime on my emacs and start a clean slate
15:24	mindbender	or better how to control this multitudinal versions of slime
15:31	mindbender	sorry here is a backtrace https://gist.github.com/1482742
15:33	cemerick	mindbender: AFAIK, you're mostly hosed if you're trying to run multiple revs of SLIME and/or maintain SLIME for CL and Clojure simultaneously.
15:34	mindbender	cemerick: yes I think that's my problem actually at times you need to work with a different version of slime for different projects and in the end they conflict
15:34	technomancy	cemerick: is correct.
15:35	mindbender	I am still at odds how to control this many slime
15:35	technomancy	it's possible to do if you only use M-x clojure-jack-in for clojure and don't load the CL-compatible version into an instance until you need it, but clojure and CL in the same emacs process isn't going to work.
15:36	amalloy	(edit: i learned how to pick less-crappy domain names for heroku, so if anyone wants to play with the github-percentile stuff it's now at http://github-percentile.herokuapp.com/YOURGITHUBUSERNAME)
15:59	technomancy	cools
15:59	semperos	I've written a custom appender for log4j in Clojure (based on http://corfield.org/blog/post.cfm/clojure-and-log4j), let's say in a file appender.clj
16:00	semperos	I have a Swing GUI, whose code lives in a file gui.clj
16:00	semperos	I want my appender to append logs to a JTextArea, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to "set" my target JTextArea in my appender, so it's .append method prints to the component
16:01	semperos	any thoughts?
16:05	thorwil	hi! i need a list of booleans, one for each item in ks, on whether it matches one in feeds. what i have now seems kinda complicated: (map #(-> (some #{%} feeds) nil? not) ks)
16:08	TimMc	Raynes: o you know if there is an existing utility for lazy-seqifying chunked lists?
16:08	Raynes	TimMc: No idea.
16:08	semperos	nm, was just complicated my namespace dependencies...
16:08	TimMc	Raynes: If not, that would be a nice utility to extract from your GitHub API seqifier.
16:08	TimMc	ok
16:10	amalloy	TimMc: i know alex baranosky's fork of useful has that
16:10	amalloy	i don't remember if i added it to useful as well
16:11	amalloy	TimMc: https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L176
16:16	_ulises	what's the correct way of doing thread-local bindings? I've tried both with binding and with-redefs (http://pastebin.com/TWTk9Yr9) but no joy. I'm using clojure 1.3.
16:16	Bronsa	_ulises: you have to define it first
16:17	Bronsa	(def ^:dynamic self)
16:17	_ulises	Bronsa: yes, sorry, self was defined exactly like that
16:17	_ulises	forgot to include it
16:19	_ulises	Bronsa: http://pastebin.com/WFVUqY54 same thing (self was declared with ^{:dynamic true} before)
16:19	raek	_ulises: btw, with-redefs is not thread-local
16:19	_ulises	oh
16:20	raek	'binding' introduces a thread-local mutable variant of a var.
16:20	raek	in your case you start another thread, so it will not see that binding
16:20	_ulises	indeed
16:21	_ulises	so I'm wondering how I can make that thread see the binding
16:21	_ulises	perhaps I just don't understand anything at all
16:21	_ulises	and should just become a shoemaker or something
16:21	raek	what do you want to use this for?
16:21	_ulises	(not that shoemaking is any easier)
16:22	_ulises	I'm writing a small actors lib. to get acquainted with agents
16:22	_ulises	and I'd like to spawn actors and have their name bound to self
16:22	raek	alright, similarly to agent in clojure?
16:23	_ulises	eep
16:23	_ulises	is agent bound to the current agent?
16:23	raek	yup
16:23	_ulises	current = the one running
16:23	_ulises	well, that does it for me then
16:24	raek	in case you wanted to implement something like that yourself, you could just move the binding call to within the thread body
16:24	_ulises	yes, but in the real case I want to define actors by providing a fun and nothing else
16:24	_ulises	so I don't want to expose that
16:24	raek	(.start (Thread. #(binding [self ...] ...code here...)))
16:25	raek	the var can be both :dynamic and :private
16:25	_ulises	alternatively I could define the interface to the fun to be something like [name ...] and have the fun return the handler (another fun) and then just use a (let...)
16:25	_ulises	:private?
16:26	TimMc	amalloy_: I don't know if that's quite what's needed.
16:26	raek	a var marked as private will not be pulled into another person's namespace when that person uses 'use'
16:27	_ulises	oh, cool
16:27	raek	and you will get an error if you try to access it from outside the namespace it was defined in
16:27	_ulises	ah, that's very good, thanks!
16:27	raek	(it can be circumvented, however)
16:27	Bronsa	@#'trick
16:28	raek	(defn- foo ...) = (defn ^{:private true} foo ...) = (defn ^:private foo ...)
16:28	_ulises	nice
16:28	_ulises	I think I'll stop trying to bind self because it's just not working
16:28	_ulises	:(
16:29	raek	(defn spawn [f] (let [pid (make-new-pid)] (.start (Thread. #(binding [self pid] (f))))))
16:29	raek	_ulises: you should be able to do something like that
16:30	_ulises	hum, does make sense
16:30	_ulises	want to see the rest of the code? I think I'm messing up in the way I init the agents
16:30	raek	_ulises: oh, also revaluate all the code that uses self after making it dynamic
16:30	_ulises	what do you mean "revaluate"? recompile?
16:30	raek	yes
16:30	_ulises	ah, yes, always do that
16:31	_ulises	just to be sure
16:31	_ulises	aaah
16:31	_ulises	right, I know where I'm messing up
16:31	_ulises	(I think)
16:31	raek	what was it?
16:32	_ulises	one sec. making a small example
16:33	_ulises	no, that wasn't it :/
16:34	_ulises	no idea what's going on now
16:34	_ulises	:D
16:34	raek	what does the code look like?
16:34	_ulises	let me paste it
16:36	_ulises	raek: http://pastebin.com/QTYzMr1C
16:36	_ulises	I can walk you through it if it's too messy :/
16:36	_ulises	ignore the macros handle and handle-named, I'm not using them
16:37	raek	are you sure actors should be dynamic?
16:37	_ulises	no, that one shouldn't
16:37	_ulises	my bad
16:38	raek	it doesn't make much sense to have a thread-local value for the atom of the map of all actors
16:39	_ulises	indeed not
16:39	Borkdude	what mode in emacs to show long sentences with an arrow on the side continuing on the next line?
16:41	raek	_ulises: in spawn, why do you send to the agent and then wait for it? couldn't you just initialize the agent with the desired value instead of nil?
16:41	_ulises	I could I suppose
16:41	technomancy	does C-c C-d C-p work from slime for anyone else?
16:42	raek	hrm, maybe you do want the "initial function" to be run inside the agent
16:43	_ulises	ideally initting an actor should take that long?
16:43	_ulises	technomancy: what is that supposed to do? it just asked me "Package:" in the minibuffer
16:43	raek	_ulises: actors and agents are not exactly the same thing. an agent is more like an atom, but where the state is updated with the function later on some other thread
16:43	technomancy	_ulises: if you give it a namespace, does it give an error?
16:43	_ulises	raek: yes, I'm just using agents as a way of spawning threads, etc.
16:44	raek	_ulises: then you can just use 'future' or 'future-call'
16:44	_ulises	technomancy: yup, plenty errors
16:44	technomancy	_ulises: ok, same here
16:44	raek	if you don't need the managed state and the function queue
16:44	y3di	anyone know what the C irc channel is?
16:44	_ulises	technomancy: mind you, perhaps my setup is not like yours?
16:45	_ulises	raek: hum, not sure how that would work? with futures I mean
16:45	technomancy	_ulises: if you use M-x clojure-jack-in then there's not much variation between individual user setups these days.
16:45	technomancy	though somehow cemerick was able to get it to work
16:45	_ulises	technomancy: but I don't, I'm still with clojure-mode and slime-connect
16:45	technomancy	_ulises: oh, interesting. good to know.
16:45	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:45	technomancy	apparently cemerick's Emacs prowess is formidable.
16:45	_ulises	raek: as in, with futures, once you've calculated the value, it's cached?
16:46	raek	_ulises: to be more precise: all 'future' does is to spawn a thread and run som code in it. it sounded like that was all you needed from agents
16:46	cemerick	technomancy: what are we talking about?
16:46	TimMc	Borkdude: That's what my Emacs does already.
16:46	Raynes	cemerick: He just said your prowess is formidable. Don't look into it.
16:46	_ulises	raek: yes, but I want to have the option of re-running the computation on a new message
16:46	technomancy	cemerick: I can't get the slime-apropos-package command working; I had assumed it was only implemented in the CL swank server, but apparently you got it working. =)
16:46	_ulises	raek: so, the pong actor should react to :ping messages forever
16:46	Borkdude	TimMc: normally my emacs does that as well, but now the line just runs from the screen
16:46	raek	_ulises: yes, you can wait for the return value to be computed by using deref. once it is done, deref will always return the same thing
16:47	_ulises	raek: yeah, so a future might not be what I want, since messages may contain payloads and the response of the actor may depend on the payload
16:47	cemerick	Raynes: Part of my persona is that I suck at emacs though.
16:47	raek	_ulises: 'future' does not give you a message queue and a loop, which I think you need
16:47	TimMc	Borkdude: Check your modes, anything weird?
16:47	_ulises	raek: indeed
16:47	TimMc	<- not actually an Emacs expert
16:48	raek	_ulises: but with actors you send data, not functions, so agents might not be a perfect fit after all
16:49	_ulises	raek: indeed, again, this is just an excuse to use agents and do something with them
16:49	technomancy	cemerick: you wouldn't happen to remember which versions of everything you were using when you got it working, would you?
16:49	_ulises	raek: right now the handler in an agent handles the message and returns itself
16:49	_ulises	raek: so the state of the agent is the handler itself
16:50	raek	so instead of making a tail recursive call to "the next handler", you return it
16:50	technomancy	cemerick: never mind; I see that it works in Emacs 23 but not 24.
16:50	_ulises	raek: indeed
16:50	_ulises	raek: that's what receive does
16:50	cemerick	technomancy: oh, you're referring to the stuff in the chapter?
16:50	technomancy	cemerick: right
16:51	cemerick	90% of the Emacs content there is from Brian. :-P
16:51	technomancy	aha
16:51	technomancy	cemerick: don't worry about it; I'll explain everything in my email
16:51	cemerick	yes, good :-)
16:52	cemerick	so it's expected that that doesn't work?
16:53	cemerick	in v24, that is?
16:53	technomancy	FSVO expected
16:53	technomancy	as of five minutes ago, it is now a known bug. =)
16:56	_ulises	raek: any more thoughts? is it insane what I'm doing?
16:56	cemerick	technomancy: will it be fixed within 6 weeks? :-P
16:57	raek	_ulises: no, I think it makes sense :-)
16:57	technomancy	cemerick: with any luck it'll be fixed before the release of Emacs 24
16:57	drewr	with clojurescript, are you supposed to be able to pass args to main-cli-fn?
16:57	_ulises	raek: ah, cool, thanks :)
16:57	drewr	all I get is nil
16:57	technomancy	but probably worth omitting it from the book to be on the safe side
16:57	_ulises	I'll see if I can just carry on with agent and not worry about self
16:57	raek	I think it would be good to hide the fact that agents are used in the implementation
16:58	_ulises	those where my thoughts
16:58	_ulises	but I just cannot make the whole binding self thing to work
16:58	_ulises	:/
16:58	cemerick	technomancy: exactly why I was asking :-)
16:59	cemerick	Interesting, conjure has 187 (!) watchers.
16:59	cemerick	I had no idea it had so much interest.
17:00	brehaut	thats the rails like right?
17:00	raek	_ulises: you need to call binding in every funtion you send to an agent
17:00	cemerick	brehaut: yeah, you mentioned it in your 'brief overview'
17:00	_ulises	ugh
17:01	brehaut	cemerick: hah i did too
17:01	raek	_ulises: the effects of 'binding' happens completely at runtime and only applies to the expression within the (binding [] ...) form
17:01	_ulises	hum, ok, so I'll have to hide that in the receive fn or something along those lines
17:02	_ulises	and somehow pass the name during spawn
17:02	brehaut	cemerick: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=822366 lol
17:02	_ulises	ideally, I should be able to bind self to the actual agent instead of to the name of the actor
17:02	_ulises	but oh well
17:03	raek	so if you want to run some function f in agent a with self bound to pid, you need to do (let [a ..., f ..., pid ...] (send a (fn [state] (binding [self pid] (f state)))))
17:03	cemerick	brehaut: omg the metaprogramming
17:04	fryguy	alright, i'm going to ask a silly question. I'm going to do some stuff with clojure, and I'm a vim user. Am I missing out on a lot by just using slimv and related plugins as opposed to slime/emacs?
17:04	_ulises	raek: yes, so the binding has to come inside the receive fn which creates the actor's handler
17:04	cemerick	what's that site that tracks usage of various clojure libraries?
17:05	brehaut	clojuresphere?
17:05	brehaut	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=822366
17:05	brehaut	samnit
17:05	brehaut	http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com/
17:05	TimMc	fryguy: Does that setup give you structural editing of s-expressions?
17:06	fryguy	TimMc: i'm not sure. I'm still doing some reading and researching before I dive in.
17:06	cemerick	brehaut: thanks
17:06	cemerick	I'm going to /quit, return with a new nick, and ask all the noob questions I've had on my mind. :-P
17:06	brehaut	lol
17:07	cemerick	OK, so conjure has 2 usages according to clojuresphere. That lines up more with my expectations.
17:07	Raynes	clojuresphere is weird.
17:08	brehaut	cemerick: my educated (?) guess at why its got so many watchers is that its pretty old (2009?) and is a rails-like which is many peoples default for 'i want web programming'
17:08	Raynes	I don't like it anymore. I wanted to make it use tentacles instead of clj-github, but it uses some strange v2-only API call that doesn't exist in the v3 API.
17:08	cemerick	I usually stalls out on me after a couple of queries.
17:08	_ulises	raek: I reverted the change you suggested to spawn, I remember now why I had it; turns out that if I init the agent straight to (apply f args) then the ping actor tries to send a ping to the pong agent and that is not done in the context of an agent, so agent is nil
17:08	_ulises	(that'd be my explanation)
17:08	Raynes	I don't like websites that don't use the latest versions of my libraries and such.
17:09	cemerick	brehaut: last commit was this past september shrug
17:09	brehaut	cemerick: sorry, i didnt mean its out of date, just that its existed for a long while
17:09	cemerick	ah, right
17:10	cemerick	Raynes: You are a fickle beast.
17:10	cemerick	:-D
17:10	Raynes	:>
17:10	brehaut	cemerick: even some of my crappy projects on github have watchers, i think just because they have existed for a long time ;)
17:10	Raynes	brehaut: Stop looking at amalloy_'s repository list.
17:10	brehaut	?
17:11	brehaut	Raynes: ^
17:11	Raynes	Failed attempt at humor, I think. I thought you said "even some of the crappy" instead of "my crappy", which would have made my comment more amusing than it actually was.
17:11	brehaut	aha
17:12	brehaut	cemerick: red bull can make you deaf‽
17:12	cemerick	That shit'll mess you up.
17:12	brehaut	yeah i was aware of that at least
17:12	brehaut	i thought it was just heart trouble
17:12	brehaut	'just'
17:13	TimMc	fryguy: Emacs' paredit-mode allows you to do things like turn (let [x 5] (when a x)) into (when a (let [x 5] x)) in a single command -- that's an extreme example of structural editing.
17:14	cemerick	brehaut: it's damn effective if you're planning on not sleeping tho.
17:14	brehaut	cemerick: lol. a big pot of chemex coffee is my sleep deprevation aid of choice
17:14	cemerick	chemex?
17:15	cemerick	I gag @ coffee.
17:15	brehaut	its a pour over filter cofffee pot
17:15	Raynes	I've been drinking sugar free redbull and monster much more often than I'd like.
17:15	TimMc	I go with 87% dark chocolate.
17:15	fryguy	TimMc: i'm not so sure i'm concerned about pure code editing. It's more the other niceties that I feel like I might be missing out on. I guess I'm in a situation where I should just try the vim stuff and see if I like it.
17:15	TimMc	and Daft Punk
17:15	technomancy	brehaut: in Indonesia Red Bull has nicotine in it
17:15	brehaut	technomancy: fark
17:15	fryguy	also, what? red bull can make you deaf? source?
17:16	fryguy	i drink a lot of redbull
17:16	Raynes	Surely he was kidding.
17:16	technomancy	mmm... chemex
17:16	TimMc	fryguy: If you're way more familiar with vim, go for it.
17:16	technomancy	fryguy: whatever you do don't let screwing with your editor get in the way of learning clojure
17:17	Raynes	What he said.
17:17	technomancy	if you want to experiment once you're comfy with the basics that's fine
17:17	Borkdude	ah: "toggle-truncate-lines" is what I wanted
17:17	_ulises	raek: I don't think the binding to self will work unless the agent has as state a closure over its name
17:17	fryguy	TimMc: i'm WAY more familiar with vim than emacs. technomancy, i'm agree with what you say. I was more curious as to whether SLIME was that much better than alternatives that it is worth considering
17:17	TimMc	fryguy: Yeah, technomancy has a good point -- learn one thing at a time. :-/
17:17	Raynes	fryguy: I am an avid Emacs user, but I did an editor experiment recently. I spent 2 weeks with Vim exclusively. Things went just fine. I like Emacs more, but if you're already familiar with Vim, there is no reason to not use it unless you just want to learn Emacs.
17:18	brehaut	technomancy: i got to try some panama geisha coffee through a chemex at my local café recently. it was amazing
17:18	cemerick	fryguy: what, I'm not authoritative enough for you? ;-) https://twitter.com/#!/cemerick/statuses/147438804800782336
17:18	TimMc	I still don't use SLIME.
17:18	fryguy	Raynes: perfect. that's just the answer I was looking for
17:18	technomancy	fryguy: I'd actually rate paredit as equal or superior to slime in terms of productivity boost.
17:18	Raynes	I repeat, as an avid Emacs user, I am also fond of Vim after using it for a while, though I like it less than Emacs (because I'm Raynes).
17:18	Raynes	There is also a paredit for Vim. The keybindings are pretty convoluted, but it is usable (and of course, customizable).
17:18	technomancy	especially when measured by win:setup-pain ratio
17:19	technomancy	fryguy: if anything makes you switch to Emacs, it should be vimscript, not Clojure. =)
17:19	fryguy	paredit and structural editing stuff sounds really nice, but I think my overall existing speed with vim, plus surround.vim, plus finding suitable plugins to do things _like_ paredit means I'm more interested in "the other things", like connecting to a running session, debugging, etc.
17:20	Borkdude	Emacs vs Vi learning curve: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060302.html
17:20	Raynes	fryguy: Like I said, there is a paredit for Vim as well.
17:20	fryguy	Raynes: right
17:20	Raynes	Not as complete as the Emacs version, I wouldn't think, but usable and helpful.
17:20	raek	_ulises: sure, you can either store it in the state or in the closure of the actual function that is applied inside the agent (which, if I understand you correctly, you build with receive)
17:21	_ulises	raek: indeed. I also thought that perhaps the agent should have a state something like {:name name :handler fn}
17:21	technomancy	brehaut: the places around here that have chemex are great because the baristas can tell when you're interested and go on and on about the process, the specific characteristics of the bean, etc.
17:21	brehaut	technomancy: thats excellent :)
17:21	brehaut	technomancy: id love to work at my local roastery/café but sadly they have no public Wifi
17:22	_ulises	raek: but right now if the handler does something like (! actor msg agent) and the handler is along the lines of (receive {:foo (fn[sender] (! sender :gotcha))}) then it's all good
17:22	technomancy	brehaut: no 3G?
17:22	technomancy	oh, kiwi telcos are awful with their caps and such, right?
17:22	brehaut	technomancy: in new zealand? i'd be selling my kidneys before the week was out
17:22	technomancy	ouch =(
17:23	brehaut	yup :(
17:23	brehaut	technomancy: i can get 50megs a month for $6 bucks, and/or pay through the nose
17:23	brehaut	what in the hell kind of cap is 50 megs?
17:24	brehaut	i might as well train up a saint bernard to operate a usb disk and send all my packets as batch jobs
17:24	technomancy	that's actually interesting since nobody in the US is interested in taking your money unless it's USD30+/mo
17:24	jodaro	the "no porn on your phone" cap
17:24	technomancy	I wonder how many IRC channels you could follow on 50 MB/mo
17:24	TimMc	Pfft, not this one. :-P
17:24	_ulises	and I thought that 3G in the UK was bad. Right now I have 15GB for £15 (approx. 20-22 USD)
17:25	jodaro	TimMc: beat me to it
17:25	technomancy	Raynes: how big is lazybot's log for the last month uncompressed?
17:25	Raynes	technomancy: For what channel?
17:25	technomancy	I was thinking this one
17:26	brehaut	theres just not enough competition in NZ for cellphones to not be insane
17:26	accel	is there a clojure smtp server?
17:26	accel	I want to roll my own email server that does some weird things
17:26	accel	for handling spam
17:26	jodaro	the java mail stuff might have that
17:26	accel	in particular; implementign somethign like hashcash in clojure
17:27	Raynes	technomancy: http://www.raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/clojure/ Break out the calculator.
17:27	technomancy	Raynes: cool; thanks
17:27	Raynes	I'd actually tell you, but I suck at bash.
17:28	technomancy	dude
17:28	brehaut	baha the entire history (minus a couple of bot outages) of #burningwheel is 5.4 meg
17:28	technomancy	rectangle-kill
17:28	jodaro	A: No, the JavaMail API package does not include any mail servers.
17:28	jodaro	or not
17:28	technomancy	1.7 MB
17:28	technomancy	I imagine the overhead of IRC might add a bit to that, but the ballpark number is good
17:28	jodaro	accel: http://code.google.com/p/subethasmtp/
17:29	technomancy	anyway, I'd pay $6/mo for 3G on my phone if it could co-exist with a prepaid voice plan.
17:29	technomancy	even at 50MB
17:29	brehaut	technomancy: whats a prepaid voice plan?
17:29	hiredman	my log #clojure is 139mb
17:29	hiredman	my of #clojure
17:29	hiredman	damn it
17:30	technomancy	brehaut: I dump USD100 onto my SIM; each call is billed at $0.05/min, and then six months later I top it off again.
17:30	brehaut	technomancy: wow. $0.05/min? how much are SMS?
17:30	technomancy	same, I think
17:30	TimMc	Better write them quickly, then. :-P
17:30	wastrel	http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw5xr6GefR1qb15g0o1_500.jpg
17:30	technomancy	hehe
17:31	technomancy	brehaut: can't tell; is that high or low for you?
17:31	brehaut	technomancy: exceedingly low
17:32	brehaut	technomancy: i think my calls are either $1.00 or $1.50 a minute
17:32	technomancy	holy smokes
17:32	brehaut	technomancy: SMS is 20c a pop
17:32	TimMc	technomancy: What carrier do you use?
17:32	technomancy	before that I was using SIP on my 3G data plan, which was $0.015
17:32	technomancy	TimMc: t-mobile
17:33	technomancy	it may be 10c for out going and 5c for incoming, but I don't really make any outgoing calls.
17:33	technomancy	apart from voip anyway
17:34	Vinzent	has somebody used clojure with oracle?
17:34	TimMc	Almost certainly.
17:35	Vinzent	i mean, as a scripting language, for writing stored procedures
17:36	Raynes	~anybody
17:36	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:36	Raynes	Oh my God.
17:36	technomancy	weavejester: it appears "I was thinking about factoring a lot of $X out into a small library" is your catchphrase.
17:36	technomancy	~anyone
17:36	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
17:36	Raynes	That's the one thing that I use with clojurebot.
17:36	Raynes	Oh.
17:36	Raynes	Duh.
17:36	technomancy	heh
17:36	weavejester	weavejester: Hahaha
17:36	weavejester	Uh
17:36	weavejester	technomancy: Hahaha
17:36	weavejester	Now I'm laughing at myself for some reason
17:36	Raynes	weavejester: Talking to yourself again?
17:37	weavejester	Raynes: Apparently so!
17:37	technomancy	"Oh man... I think I need to factor this out into a separate library." / "Sounds like a job for ... weavejester!"
17:37	technomancy	just need a costume and/or theme song. =)
17:37	jodaro	or medication
17:37	technomancy	hahahah
17:37	technomancy	weavejester: did you end up using lein-sub for ring?
17:38	weavejester	My only problem now is that "ring-server" sounds like "ring-serve"... I think I need to rename "ring-serve"
17:38	weavejester	technomancy: Yep
17:38	technomancy	weavejester: how's that working out for you?
17:38	weavejester	technomancy: Testing is easier, but I don't think it handles interdependent submodules very well when pushing.
17:39	technomancy	weavejester: pushing to clojars?
17:39	weavejester	technomancy: Yeah. It seems to read all the project files first, and then execute the subtasks
17:39	weavejester	So if foo.A depends on foo.B
17:39	weavejester	Then even if you specify the submodules as [foo.B foo.A]
17:39	weavejester	It fails to push, because it tries to resolve both project.clj files before pushing.
17:40	technomancy	tries to resolve them remotely?
17:40	technomancy	maybe a round of install across the board before pushing, or would that have the same effect?
17:40	weavejester	Yeah, so... ring-servlet depends on ring-core for example.
17:40	Vinzent	I know, but I don't have "a question". I just winder if someone has any experience in making such thing work and can point me to a relevant article or just say is that ok or not
17:41	weavejester	So I update all the versions to 1.0.0, but no matter how I arrange it, it doesn't seem to work.
17:41	weavejester	ring-servlet complains that ring-core 1.0.0 doesn't exist, even if ring-core 1.0.0 is scheduled to be pushed first.
17:41	technomancy	tricky
17:42	technomancy	seems like you'd almost want to perform the install task immediately after reading projects
17:43	weavejester	Yeah... it seems from the source code that it does do that...
17:44	weavejester	But maybe the laziness of map and reduce are playing tricks here.
17:44	weavejester	Since reduce has an slightly unintuitive evaluation order
17:45	technomancy	ah, yeah could be a bug
17:45	technomancy	easy bug to overlook since getting it right once means that you won't notice future breakage
17:46	weavejester	Let me double-check that I didn't just do something wrong
17:46	weavejester	Well... I'll do it later. No hurry.
17:46	Raynes	Oh man.
17:46	Raynes	clojure.template is awesome.
17:47	weavejester	Anyone have any good suggestions for the name of a library designed to start Ring servers in a REPL like SLIME?
17:47	weavejester	clojure.template?
17:47	clojurebot	clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
17:47	Raynes	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.template-api.html
17:48	weavejester	Oh, I see
17:48	technomancy	ring-toss
17:48	weavejester	Huh...
17:48	weavejester	That's a good suggestion :)
17:48	Raynes	wedding-ring
17:49	weavejester	I like ring-toss. It's kinda like throwing up a quick ring server
17:49	weavejester	Although I don't know what I'd call the function that runs the server :)
17:49	Raynes	toss
17:49	weavejester	Currently (serve handler)
17:50	Raynes	(toss handler)
17:50	weavejester	Well, I'm British, so I'd rather avoid the term "toss" :)
17:51	Raynes	Makes sense.
17:51	TimMc	heh
17:51	Raynes	You guys say crap like "He was a right tosser!"
17:51	weavejester	Yeah
17:51	technomancy	hah; nice
17:52	weavejester	I actually like the (serve blah) syntax...
17:52	weavejester	But ring.util.server seems the best name for, well, running a Ring server.
17:52	samaaron	Raynes: mind your language ;-)
17:52	weavejester	Maybe (run blah) ...
17:52	weavejester	ring-run...
17:53	Raynes	(not -derogatory
17:53	Raynes	(not-derogatory-toss blah)
17:53	weavejester	Haha
17:53	samaaron	ring-toss just sounds wrong on soooo many levels
17:54	TimMc	How many levels?
17:54	weavejester	I think I might go with ring-run
17:54	technomancy	ring-hurl? no wait...
17:54	weavejester	(hurl bad-sushi)
17:54	TimMc	This reminds me of the condition system naming stuff.
17:54	weavejester	Who was it who said...
17:54	Raynes	samaaron: Go play with overtone.
17:54	weavejester	"There are only 2 hard problems in computer science: cache expiration and naming things"
17:55	samaaron	Raynes: I have been. I'm about to go to bed now
17:55	samaaron	weavejester: that's not quite right
17:55	samaaron	"There are only 2 hard problems in computer science: cache expiration, naming things and off-by-one errors"
17:56	weavejester	samaaron: I was quoting... someone... I think :)
17:56	samaaron	hehehe
17:56	samaaron	quoting someone off the internet hey?
17:56	technomancy	two hard problems: naming thiconcurrencyngs and
17:56	samaaron	hahahaha
17:57	weavejester	Oh
17:57	weavejester	http://martinfowler.com/bliki/TwoHardThings.html
17:57	weavejester	Looks like the off-by-one is an official extension :)
17:58	weavejester	I still haven't figured out what to call my defmigration library I'm going to base on ragtime...
17:58	samaaron	night night
17:58	weavejester	I guess I should write the ragtime leiningen plugin first
17:58	weavejester	night
18:08	cemerick	weavejester: Is there an official way to produce a clojure.xml stuffs from hiccup stuffs?
18:08	cemerick	If not, would you be interested in a patch containing one?
18:08	weavejester	cemerick: I have a branch for it... let me try and find it...
18:09	weavejester	https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup/tree/refactor
18:09	weavejester	But it's not finished.
18:09	cemerick	I wrote one in anger earlier this week because I wanted to mess about with hiccup in an app that uses enlive everywhere else.
18:09	clojurebot	hiccup is both https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup and http://tinyurl.com/426og7n
18:10	weavejester	cemerick: could I take a look at your code?
18:12	weavejester	I've been thinking about combining enlive and hiccup
18:12	cemerick	weavejester: https://gist.github.com/2a64e0067c960ea86354
18:12	cemerick	I've not cared enough about the problems to bother fixing them yet.
18:13	weavejester	I have a version here that should work: https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup/blob/refactor/src/hiccup/compiler.clj
18:13	weavejester	That compiles Hiccup code directly into clojure.xml
18:13	cemerick	Yeah, I was looking
18:13	weavejester	I haven't started on the renderer that will convert that into a string
18:14	weavejester	I was thinking of releasing the current Hiccup as Hiccup 1.0.0, and then using the refactor as 2.0.0
18:14	cemerick	That seems very sane.
18:14	weavejester	Not sure if 2.0 will be as fast as 1.0, but it should be more modular
18:14	cemerick	Have you ever benchmarked hiccup vs. enlive?
18:14	weavejester	And you could plug in rendering engines that create indented HTML
18:15	cemerick	Real men use XSLT to pretty-print XML and HTML. :-P
18:15	TimMc	By the way, I forked enlive to add a switch for outputting HTML-style self-closing tags like <link>.
18:15	weavejester	cemerick: I think I did a while ago. It really depends on how optimized the Hiccup code is. Hiccup can be very fast, because it compiles.
18:16	weavejester	So (html [:p {} x]) => (str "<p>" x "</p>")
18:16	TimMc	https://github.com/timmc/enlive Gonna see if cgrand will take a pull request. :-)
18:17	cemerick	Now that I properly appreciate hiccup, what I really want is to be able to provide hiccup-style bits as input to e.g. enlive/content and such. That should be pretty easy.
18:18	cemerick	TimMc: Are those tags still self-closing in html5?
18:18	TimMc	Yeah.
18:18	weavejester	Well, the current Hiccup engine is geared up around creating strings, and it's a bit of a mess. Not very clear code.
18:18	TimMc	and the W3C validator gets angry at Enlive's default output.
18:18	weavejester	The refactor is a lot cleaner, but currently only renders to clojure.xml format.
18:19	cemerick	I recall Christophe saying that the big win for him in optimizing for enlive 1.0 was to never produce strings at all. I presume that's what you're aiming for with this new compilation?
18:20	cemerick	or, to never produce new strings, I should say
18:21	cemerick	hrm, yup, seems like it
18:23	cemerick	weavejester: amazingly, that little function I gisted is working well enough in the corner of my app that's using hiccup. Looking at your new compiler, I presume it's going to break any second now?
18:24	weavejester	cemerick: No idea... it's been a while since I looked at it. It might be that my refactor was 95% clean-up.
18:24	brehaut	weavejester, cemerick: i think it would be fantastic if enlive and hiccup were better friends. doesnt seem like they need to be mutually exclusive
18:24	weavejester	cemerick: The current Hiccup code I'm not happy with...
18:25	weavejester	brehaut: My theory was that I could use enlive to insert components into pages
18:26	weavejester	Like... Say you had a library that handled authentication and logins
18:26	weavejester	You could have some middleware that used enlive to insert a login box into your page.
18:27	brehaut	weavejester: i agree
18:27	weavejester	I kinda think that there isn't enough vertical separation in web-apps
18:28	cemerick	weavejester: That makes a lot of sense to me.
18:28	guns	lang
18:28	weavejester	MVC is kinda separating out horizontal layers
18:28	guns	oops
18:28	weavejester	But you can only go so far with that approach
18:28	cemerick	Enlive seems to be at its best in defining the broad structure of pages, and hiccup seems at its best populating them.
18:28	weavejester	If your web app size doubles, you can't add more layers
18:29	weavejester	cemerick: Yeah
18:29	cemerick	or, producing the content to populate them
18:29	brehaut	weavejester: another middleware i would liek to get around to implementing is something akin to typogrify for django
18:29	cemerick	selectors are badass
18:29	weavejester	I figure that Hiccup+Enlive is a good idea because originally I thought it was a terrible idea :)
18:29	brehaut	lol
18:29	weavejester	I thought the same about Ring until I tried it.
18:29	weavejester	Funny as that sounds now.
18:30	cemerick	same here
18:30	cemerick	I've been down on hiccup for, oh, years. Now I'm absolutely convinced a union is ideal.
18:31	weavejester	It's on my todo list, but that's kinda long :)
18:31	weavejester	If anyone else wants to take a look at the refactor branch, it should be a lot clearer than the master branch of Hiccupe
18:32	brehaut	weavejester: how far away do you think 1.0.0 of compojure is? im going to update my ring post for ring 1 and clj 1.3, and id like to cover compojure 1.0 at the same time
18:33	weavejester	brehaut: If no-one reports any issues, I'm going to turn 1.0.0-RC1 into 1.0.0 this weekend. Maybe tomorrow night.
18:33	brehaut	weavejester: excellent :) i guess i better get editing
18:35	cemerick	brehaut: ping me with that url when you're done :-)
18:35	brehaut	weavejester: one other question; i havent looked at compojure in a while, but does it have reversable urls ?
18:35	brehaut	cemerick: ok :)
18:37	weavejester	brehaut: Could you clarify what you mean?
18:37	weavejester	Like, if you have "/foo/:id" and {:id 10}, can you turn it into "/foo/10"
18:37	weavejester	Or are you saying can a handler tell which function is called by which route?
18:39	jkkramer	weavejester: is that hiccup refactoring faster, or just cleaner code?
18:39	brehaut	weavejester: in django you can 'reverse' a url route; ie provide the name of the route, and the components to fill in the gaps and it gives you back a url
18:40	brehaut	weavejester: yeah, like that example
18:40	weavejester	jkkramer: Cleaner, and it compiles clojure.xml before strings
18:40	jkkramer	weavejester: btw, after having recently tried to grok the hiccup source, it does look much cleaner and easier to understand
18:41	weavejester	brehaut: No, but I've been meaning to add it. Noir has something like it, but its just a search-and-replace. I think I can make something a bit more robust...
18:42	weavejester	I haven't hugely thought about it, though.
18:42	brehaut	weavejester: ah sure. i know moustache doesnt have it (and i expect it would be pretty challenging to add)
18:42	brehaut	but i do miss it from django
18:42	weavejester	You'd have to name the route, though
18:42	jkkramer	weavejester: somewhat related, I discovered recently that hiccup was a significant bottleneck when generating a page with ~400KB of HTML. I replaced it with my own hack that does more aggressive macro-time string combination, trading off flexibility. it ended up being like 10x faster
18:43	weavejester	So... (def foo "/foo/:id") (GET foo [id] ...)
18:43	brehaut	weavejester: i wonder if its actually suitable for meta data
18:43	weavejester	jkkramer: Did you try optimizing the hiccup code for speed?
18:44	weavejester	jkkramer: For instance, [:em {} x] is faster than [:em x], because in the latter case it doesn't know if x is a map or not.
18:44	jkkramer	weavejester: a little. i reached a point where i was replacing hiccup structures with literal strings and wrote my hack
18:45	weavejester	jkkramer: In theory, removing the ambiguity from Hiccup structures should be the same as literal strings.
18:45	weavejester	jkkramer: Did you use defhtml as well?
18:45	jkkramer	weavejester: i'll play with it some and see if i can come up with simple test cases to demonstrate the issues
18:45	weavejester	jkkramer: Okay
18:46	amalloy	weavejester: oh, does defhtml expose some kind of metadata about what kind of thing it returns?
18:46	jkkramer	weavejester: no, just (html) and (html5)
18:46	weavejester	amalloy: No, it's just a string.
18:47	weavejester	amalloy: It's like (defn ~name ~args (html (do ~@body)))
18:47	jkkramer	if that's the case, i don't think it would help my situation much
18:48	weavejester	jkkramer: So all your functions returned strings?
18:48	amalloy	fair enough. seemed like since you were talking about removing ambiguity, you might expose a special-defn that lets hiccup know what kind of thing is returned, thus removing embiguity
18:49	jkkramer	weavejester: insofar as (html …) was able to return strings -- loops and such notwithstanding. my hack tries hard to turn things into literal strings, rather than runtime-generated ones
18:49	weavejester	amalloy: That might be possible, but isn't implemented.
18:50	weavejester	jkkramer: Hiccup tries to convert things into literal strings when it can
18:50	weavejester	jkkramer: So (html [:p "foo"]) is the same as "<p>foo</p>"
18:50	weavejester	jkkramer: And (html [:p {} x]) is the same as (str "<p>" x "</p>")
18:50	amalloy	yeah, i remember being really impressed when i saw that in the source
18:51	weavejester	The source isn't that nice, though. Hence the refactor.
18:51	jkkramer	weavejester: i was having issues getting that to work fully. maybe it's due to me leaving out the attr maps
18:51	amalloy	i've been at lunch, didn't know a refactor was coming
18:51	weavejester	amalloy: Well, eventually. When I get around to it :)
18:53	weavejester	jkkramer: If the attr maps are left out, then: (html [:p x]) becomes (if (map? x) (str "<p " (render-attrs x) "></p>") (str "<p>" x "</p>"))
18:53	jkkramer	weavejester: k. i will experiment. thanks for the pointer
18:54	amalloy	it seems pretty unlikely that the map? test is any kind of bottleneck at all though, compared to the rest of what's going on
18:55	amalloy	and it's not like the uncertainty bubbles up: the result of (html [:p x]) is known to be a string
19:01	technomancy	amalloy: quick once-over of github-percentile before I deploy?
19:02	Raynes	TimMc: Who is it that is so gungho about getting rid of hiccup in trycljs?
19:03	amalloy	sure, one sec while i pull, technomancy
19:03	Raynes	TimMc: "all that hiccup is going to give me hiccups". What could possible the benefit of using enlive to replace such a small hiccup code base? Feeling smug about having rewritten a portion of a project?
19:03	Raynes	:p
19:04	amalloy	technomancy: a lot of exceptions about lacking favicon.ico, but otherwise looks great
19:04	technomancy	amalloy: oh good call
19:04	amalloy	actually, let me turn the "longer than X has" into a link to their github profile
19:05	technomancy	of course
19:05	Raynes	amalloy: I'll get 4clojure prepared to deploy to heroku when I update it to 1.3 and move it to noir.
19:05	Raynes	Which I should start soon.
19:05	Raynes	Like possibly tonight soon.
19:07	Raynes	TimMc: Oh, it was you.
19:07	Raynes	TimMc: So yeah, I'd definitely like to hear the rationale for that that isn't "it's giving me hiccups".
19:07	Raynes	Enlive is giving me hives.
19:10	Turtl3boi	semperos?
19:10	Turtl3boi	semperos can you show me how to get started with making GUIs in Clojure
19:15	weavejester	technomancy: wrap-keyword-params turns those strings into keywords
19:15	technomancy	weavejester: oh good call
19:16	weavejester	technomancy: By default, url-encoded parameter names can include any character, so can't be keywords by default
19:16	technomancy	ah, makes sense
19:19	technomancy	now with 50% more shine: http://github-percentile.herokuapp.com/
19:26	weavejester	(html (doctype :html5) ...) is the same as (html5 ...)
19:27	technomancy	weavejester: ah cool; I was just cribbing from abedra's sample app
19:28	weavejester	There are a few tricks, like [:div {:id "results"} ...] is the same as [:div#results ...]
19:28	brehaut	my github %ile is lame
19:28	weavejester	Mine is 52% apparently
19:28	weavejester	I'm almost average :)
19:28	brehaut	70%
19:29	brehaut	extremely tardy
19:29	weavejester	[:h1 {:class "content"} ] is [:h1.content]
19:29	technomancy	weavejester: do classes and ids compose?
19:30	weavejester	Oh, and (compojure.handler/site your-handler) adds a bunch of useful middleware like wrap-params
19:30	weavejester	technomancy: Yes, but I believe the id has to come first
19:30	weavejester	So [:div#foo.bar]
19:30	brehaut	weavejester: thats something to ensure round trips with enlive
19:30	weavejester	No reason for that other than the regex was written that way
19:31	weavejester	brehaut: Oh right
19:31	brehaut	i imagine it'll be piece of cake, i think the selector syntax is the same as the element shorthand, but it'd be a bit stink if it wasnt
19:31	technomancy	weavejester: good stuff
19:32	mabes	is their a macro like defnk that will assert required keys in option maps? (to prevent against typos, etc..) Just looking for prior art in-case I don't have to write my own...
19:43	gfredericks	mabes: wouldn't required keys normally get changed into proper arguments?
19:44	mabes	gfredericks: I prefer named arguments for functions with more than 3 arguments
19:45	mabes	gfredericks: having a lot of arguments may be a code smell itself I suppose
19:49	gfredericks	in any case I've never heard of such a thing. It sounds like it could be rather complex in the most general case. Maybe all I mean by that is nesting.
19:50	gfredericks	it just occured to me that in the cases where you're passing in a literal map, you could use the macro to check at compile-time...
19:50	gfredericks	that would bring the disadvantage of all your functions being macros though, which is of course terrible
19:51	gfredericks	clojurebot: which is of course terrible
19:51	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
20:12	TimMc	Raynes: I like my HTML to be HTML, and my code to be code. Also, something about complecting.
20:12	TimMc	So there.
20:13	Raynes	TimMc: I guess. If you really want to rewrite trivial Hiccup, be my guest.
20:16	cemerick	TimMc: You're not wrong — except when you need HTML to be data, in which case clojure.xml is a cumbersome notation at best.
20:24	brehaut	i dont think weve seen some of the really cool things you can do with enlive really get talked about
20:24	brehaut	yet
20:26	cemerick	I think that's true for about 114 different Clojure libraries / abstractions / etc.
20:26	brehaut	hah definately :)
20:26	brehaut	i think enlive has one big clear win though: stop emphasising deftemplate to new users
20:26	brehaut	id rather add a ring middleware that calls emit*
20:37	scgilardi	~botsnack
20:37	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
20:40	sritchie_	Raynes, here's a lein-newnew template for noir: https://github.com/sritchie/noir-template
20:41	sritchie_	I'm going to pass it over to ibdknox so he can work his wonders
20:43	hiredman	~ping
20:43	clojurebot	PONG!
20:49	Raynes	sritchie_: https://github.com/Raynes/lein-noir
20:50	sritchie_	cool, this one is meant to become a pinot-oriented template
20:50	Raynes	We planned on releasing it along with the next noir version.
20:51	sritchie_	this one should probably exclusively target pinot, then
21:02	Raynes	Did prxml get moved somewhere?
21:03	amalloy	Raynes: got moved to "don't use it; use data.xml; oh wait that will never be released"
21:03	brehaut	amalloy: is data.xml that dire?
21:03	Raynes	amalloy: That's unfortunate, since we need it or something like it for 4clojure. Any ideas?
21:04	amalloy	brehaut: no, it's totally working except for whitespace formatting, and has been for months
21:04	Raynes	chouser: Release that. Now.
21:05	amalloy	but hudson won't release it with a test failure; chouser and i can't repro the failure locally; and reasonably enough chouser doesn't want to remove valid tests
21:05	brehaut	oh :(
21:07	amalloy	and fliebel asked on clj-dev about helping with data.xml. i was like, "maybe we need some namespace help?" and there was a flurry of messages about how data.xml needs to be the be-all/end-all of xml processes, supporting 100% high-fidelity round-tripping to xml-text including the N different ways you can specify namespaces
21:08	Raynes	amalloy: So we can like, use it? I mean, I'll release it myself if we can use it.
21:09	amalloy	Raynes: a number of people have already done that. i think ninjudd has a release
21:09	amalloy	http://clojars.org/org.clojars.ninjudd/data.xml
21:09	Raynes	Works for me.
21:09	Raynes	amalloy: Fork it, rename it, release it, make it your own. ;)
21:10	amalloy	that's not a bad idea
21:10	Raynes	It really isn't.
21:11	Raynes	Without prxml and people being nuts about data.xml, there isn't really an xml generation story for Clojure right now.
21:11	amalloy	thread is at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/dff8e406b7502a0b/0997aaf57a2d4c75?show_docid=0997aaf57a2d4c75 btw, if anyone wants to read up on the history
21:14	Raynes	"I just want to clarify a non-technical point: I have no particular
21:14	Raynes	interest in being the owner (whatever that means) of data.xml." -- chouser
21:14	Raynes	That newline there was unintentional.
21:15	amalloy	Raynes: i'm not going to take ownership of the project, which i assume is your implied suggestion. i don't understand 2/3 of the code in that file
21:16	Raynes	Wasn't implying that, no.
21:17	cemerick	amalloy: to be fair, all the issues and hidden corners are legit. I remember the same misery happening when lxml in python-land was being beaten around.
21:18	cemerick	A metric ton of tools depend upon particular serializations of a given XML model; there's no way to get it half-right.
21:18	clojurebot	xml is like violence; if it's not working, you're not using enough of it.
21:19	Raynes	\_/ <-- empty care cup. /me just needs a little trivial xml. ;)
21:20	amalloy	cemerick: only if you're actually targeting those tools. i'm more interested in producing xhtml that renders in browsers and works in pom.xml files, and i suspect most data.xml users are too
21:20	cemerick	heh
21:21	amalloy	which is why the storm of "data.xml needs to do X in order to be useful" comments don't really interest me at all
21:21	cemerick	well, trivial xml is trivial to generate; maybe Raynes/trivial-xml is needed.
21:21	Raynes	The day I write a low level XML generation library is the day I start wearing a tie and using Netbeans.
21:22	cemerick	amalloy: That's fair, but I wouldn't expect the contrib process to produce partial solutions.
21:23	cemerick	If it did habitually, then its usefulness is significantly diminished IMO.
21:23	Raynes	I'm pleasantly surprised when the contrib process produces anything at all.
21:25	cemerick	Raynes: waitaminute, no one should be more cynical than me.
21:28	brehaut	i copied prxml from core into necessary evil and put my own hacks into it to make it do what was needed for xmlrpc :P
21:28	brehaut	Raynes is cynical beyond his years
21:30	cemerick	s'ok, I'm optimistic shy of my years, so we balance each other out.
21:31	cemerick	hrm, that rhetorical inversion didn't quite work
21:32	Raynes	cemerick: Is your lein dependency tree thingy available anywhere?
21:33	cemerick	[com.cemerick/pomegranate "0.0.2"]
21:33	Raynes	Oh.
21:33	cemerick	A plugin isn't possible because of arcane conflicts between aether and lein 1.x maven-ant-tasks
21:33	cemerick	thus, 2.0-only
21:34	cemerick	hrm, actually, it may be possible
21:34	cemerick	though I don't know that I'd bother
21:34	Raynes	Man. Why does every maven command I ever use result in 10 thousand plugins being downloaded?
21:35	Raynes	ls
21:35	Raynes	Note to self: IRC is not a terminal.
21:35	brehaut	Raynes: its the maven way
21:39	amalloy	Raynes: each plugin has four interfaces and one line of code
21:39	Raynes	I figured as much.
21:39	brehaut	and of course, each plugin uses a different xml applicaiton, and thus needs subtly different parser
21:40	Raynes	And data.xml is not high-fidelity enough to be appropriate.
21:40	amalloy	brb guys, gotta slit my wrists
21:40	Raynes	Take your time.
21:43	brehaut	amalloy: vertical works better than horizontal
21:44	amalloy	brehaut: not if i'm just doing it for attention
21:44	brehaut	amalloy: these days you can just grow a really long fringe and listen to poor quality pop rock
21:45	amalloy	"fringe". you crazy englishers
21:45	Raynes	And by poor quality pop rock, he means anything I listen to.
21:45	brehaut	Raynes: you arent yet 20, your _expected_ to listen to crap
21:46	brehaut	except you are allowed to understand it
21:46	Raynes	And you're over 20, and thus expected to differentiate between 'your' and 'you're'.
21:46	brehaut	baha
21:47	brehaut	:(
21:47	amalloy	Raynes: i'm glad to see someone give brehaut the beatdown he deserves grammar-wise
21:48	brehaut	amalloy: i thinkg you mean 'grammaur'
21:48	brehaut	you cant just go dropping the 'u's from english words because you cant be bothered typing them
21:50	amalloy	s/bothered/arsed
21:53	cemerick	holy crap, this channel turns into proggit after hours these days ;-)
21:53	brehaut	hahah
21:53	Raynes	cemerick: Only today.
21:53	brehaut	is that better or worse than turning into HN ?
21:53	Raynes	Christmas is nigh.
21:53	cemerick	unknown
21:53	cemerick	I've actually been trolling around reddit some lately.
21:53	cemerick	classin' it up, y'know?
21:54	brehaut	haha
22:26	symbole	I've created a project with a log4j.properties in src/. I then launch a REPL using clojure-jack-in, and use clojure.tools.logging to fire off a bunch of log messages. I don't see any of my log messages printed to the log files. What could be the problem here?
22:28	lancepantz	symbole: you also need to have log4j as a dependency
22:29	lancepantz	symbole: [log4j "1.2.15" :exclusions [javax.mail/mail javax.jms/jms com.sun.jdmk/jmxtools com.sun.jmx/jmxri]]
22:29	lancepantz
22:29	lancepantz	add that to your :dependencies
22:33	symbole	lancepantz: Thanks! That worked.
22:33	lancepantz	symbole: you're welcome
22:33	symbole	This should be documented somewhere.
22:34	lancepantz	i remember having to deal with it a couple of years ago, don't remember how i figured it out
22:34	lancepantz	but the point is that the log engine is pluggable
22:35	symbole	Looking at the POM file of clojure.tools.logging, I can see why I'd need to bring it in.
22:35	woohoo_erc	Greetings! Any Emacs user experience weird/inconsistent behaviour by ParEdit, especially for brackets []?
22:36	symbole	Maybe I'll shoot an email to the developers. Thanks again.
22:51	wolfjb	Do I need :aot? my project isn't building as far as I can tell
22:53	lancepantz	wolfjb: can you be more specific?
22:54	wolfjb	well, my project.clj doesn't have :aot in it, but when I run lein compile I get the message No namespaces to :aot compile listed in project.clj
22:54	lancepantz	wolfjb: no need to compile
22:54	wolfjb	oh
23:02	technomancy_	i should probably suppress that message for everything but direct invocations of the compile task
23:03	technomancy_	but I can't think of a good way to distinguish between direct invocations and indirect
23:03	wolfjb	well, and as a n00b, it is a bit confusing, but I don't know how to help
23:04	technomancy_	maybe suppress it altogether
23:04	lancepantz	technomancy_: could you check the command line args?
23:05	technomancy_	lancepantz: yeah, but if you said "lein test, compile", the indirect compile from test wouldn't still pick it up from command-line-arguments
23:07	alexbaranosky	is there something wrong with this attempt at using core.incubator from my project.clj? [org.clojure/core.incubator "0.1.1"]
23:09	cemerick	lancepantz: FYI, log4j 1.12.16 doesn't have those absurd dependencies you need to exclude in 1.12.15.
23:10	amalloy	alexbaranosky: that version isn't released
23:10	lancepantz	ah cool, thanks cemerick, i'll bump it up
23:10	amalloy	http://build.clojure.org/job/core.incubator/ then follow a few links to http://build.clojure.org/job/core.incubator/lastBuild/org.clojure$core.incubator/
23:11	Raynes	alexbaranosky: Make sure you keep opposing the trycljs enlive change. We need to protest this shit.
23:11	cemerick	lancepantz: only took FOUR YEARS, but hey…
23:11	cemerick	:-)
23:11	lancepantz	hehe
23:11	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
23:12	cemerick	Remember, Apache ensures project quality.
23:13	alexbaranosky	amalloy, thanks, I got it to work like such: [org.clojure/core.incubator "0.1.0"]
23:14	lancepantz	alexbaranosky: is that not what you were trying already?
23:14	lancepantz	alexbaranosky: ah, version, nm
23:19	alexbaranosky	is there a version of `rotations` in some contrib project? I'm trying to finish off the final move from 1.2 to 1.3... we still have some code just copy n pasted into the project
23:20	Turtl3boi	hi alex
23:20	Turtl3boi	do you enjoy your real job
23:20	lancepantz	lol
23:21	alexbaranosky	yeah
23:21	lancepantz	what would you say your quality of life is?
23:21	alexbaranosky	lol
23:21	lancepantz	:P
23:21	alexbaranosky	no time for this line of inquiry -- too busy being awesome ;)
23:21	Turtl3boi	is 30 years of age too late to switch careers
23:22	Turtl3boi	note: it would be a slight change of career, not drastic
23:23	alexbaranosky	life has nothing to do with that stuff
23:23	alexbaranosky	just focus and do the work
23:23	alexbaranosky	and then you'll get there
23:30	technomancy_	amalloy: I think we missed an opportunity by not putting a "tweet your results" button in github-percentile. =)
23:31	amalloy	technomancy_: true that. i'm so glad i added a Tweet button to 4clojure the night before someone noticed the site
23:34	technomancy_	nice work on the org support: http://github-percentile.herokuapp.com/clojure
23:34	amalloy	nice work plugging it for me in #clojure
23:35	technomancy_	I'm just gonna link to http://tinyurl.com/37qn7r6 before this gets out of hand
23:36	dnolen	what does the github percentile number mean?
23:37	amalloy	dnolen: nothing much really. just a measure of how long you've had your account. for example if you look up amalloy, you see "87% of Github employees have had an account longer than amalloy has"
23:37	amalloy	technomancy made it up on a lark this morning and i took it as a spur to learn heroku, so now it's an app
23:42	mindbender	amalloy: I'm also in the process of learning heroku could you please give me some pointers that helped you
23:42	lancepantz	ummm, dudes
23:42	lancepantz	what is there to "learn"?
23:42	lancepantz	just to be an asshole and all, like i am
23:42	amalloy	mindbender: http://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/clojure and /msg technomancy_
23:42	mindbender	I want to deploy a traditional j2ee app on heroku
23:43	technomancy_	mindbender: heroku doesn't provide an application container, but if you want to bundle one in your app it's doable
23:44	technomancy_	there are a couple limitations, the most pressing being a single process may only listen on a single port. if you can live with that and you can live with the idea of disposable nodes on EC2 you should be set.
23:44	technomancy_	TBH I'm not really even sure what a traditional j2ee app looks like
23:44	lancepantz	and no websocket support!
23:45	lancepantz	get on that shit :)
23:45	technomancy_	yeah, that's true. =\
23:45	cemerick	hrm, I hadn't noticed the single port restriction. No remote REPLs?
23:46	technomancy_	cemerick: you can do it using reverse SSH tunneling, or by keeping the repl in its own process.
23:46	mindbender	technomancy_: that's what I read I mean not really needing a server for deployment and I want it the easy way but I can't just figure how to do it
23:46	cemerick	technomancy_: The latter seems like it defeats the purpose?
23:47	mindbender	like jboss and maybe a war file
23:47	technomancy_	cemerick: not really; if requests are just maps and each process is stateless it's trivial to reconstruct the state you need for debugging.
23:49	cemerick	That's fair.
23:49	technomancy_	unless you mean for hot-patching in production, but I think that kind of stuff is better handled by a message queues
23:50	lancepantz	ninjudd's portal project may be useful there
23:50	technomancy_	mindbender: heroku requires containerless apps, so you'd need to embed jetty
23:50	cemerick	No, most of my remote REPL-ing involves stuff like "WTF happened to this 2GB document", so in-process is a must.
23:50	lancepantz	i think it uses tcp though, not sure if that's allowed
23:51	technomancy_	lancepantz: unfortunately that's still in private beta, which is why I'm looking into outbound reverse SSH
23:51	cemerick	S'ok though. Not everything needs to be everything to everybody all the time.
23:51	cemerick	:-)
23:51	cemerick	I actually have a bunch of low-traffic stuff that would be perfect to offload to heroku.
23:52	technomancy_	it's been strongly webapp-centric so far, we don't even have rabbit out of private beta yet either
23:52	lancepantz	technomancy_: i see, i managed to get a real time app working on heroku using html5 server-sent events
23:52	lancepantz	one-way, but it worked really well
23:53	Raynes	technomancy_: You can use heroku for non-webapp stuff?
23:53	technomancy_	lancepantz: I am hopelessly behind the times; sounds like I have some reading to do
23:53	lancepantz	works because it's essentially an http streaming response
23:53	Raynes	lancepantz: Did you know that tryclj runs on heroku?
23:53	technomancy_	Raynes: sure; you can use it for background workers off a queue, but right now resqueue is the one people usually chose, which is kind of lame compared to rabbit.
23:54	lancepantz	Raynes: yep
23:54	technomancy_	I keep bugging them to release the rabbit addon, no dice yet
23:54	technomancy_	lancepantz: yeah, I've been playing with streaming chunked HTTP with mcgranaghan; it's really underappreciated.
23:55	lancepantz	technomancy_: agree, beats the hell out of comet
23:55	technomancy_	we're doing json-map-per-line streaming into netty; it's really the best of both worlds
23:55	lancepantz	awesome
23:56	lancepantz	technomancy_: give this a read when you have some time http://dev.w3.org/html5/eventsource/
23:56	technomancy_	will do; thanks
23:56	Raynes	amalloy: You should do all sorts of stats.
23:56	Raynes	Make them think tentacles is the answer to life, the universe, everything.
23:57	amalloy	Raynes: heroku and github are both free, so feel free to fork and add some lame features
23:57	technomancy_	3D visualization of project fork DAGs please
23:57	cemerick	technomancy_: couch does the same thing for replication and such. Dunno if it'd be worth looking at to steal impl detail hints.
23:58	technomancy_	cemerick: the json line-by-line thing?
23:58	cemerick	yup
23:58	technomancy_	cool
23:58	technomancy_	is it a design goal of nrepl to work over http?
23:59	cemerick	it's a design goal to provide protocol(s) so different transports can share the same backend, pass through semantics as much as possible, etc.
23:59	technomancy_	so it should be possible even if an adapter isn't included out of the box?
23:59	cemerick	absolutely
23:59	technomancy_	great