#clojure – 2011-12-01

2011-12-01

08:30	chouser	Bah. Failed to log since yesterday afternoon until just now.
08:40	noidi	I have a vector of values, and I need to find the index of a given value in it. What's the best way to do this?
08:41	Borkdude	noidi: I would use keep-indexed
08:42	clgv	noidi: you might have chosen the wrong datastructure if you ant to do that often
08:42	clgv	*want
08:44	Borkdude	,(keep-indexed (fn [i e] (if (= e some-value) i))
08:44	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
08:44	Borkdude	,(keep-indexed (fn [i e] (when (= e 2) i)) [1 2 3])
08:44	clojurebot	(1)
08:44	noidi	basically I just want to map a set of keywords to sequential integers. the obvious way would be a map, {:foo 0, :bar 1, ...}, but I'd rather let Clojure do the work :)
08:44	Borkdude	I mean (copied the wrong thing)
08:45	noidi	and I want the order to remain stable, that's why I use a vector and not a set
08:46	Borkdude	noidi: a vector of keywords maybe?
08:46	Borkdude	noidi: use map-indexed then
08:46	clgv	noidi: try ##(zipmap [:foo :bar :bla :blubb] (range))
08:46	lazybot	⇒ {:blubb 3, :bla 2, :bar 1, :foo 0}
08:47	noidi	clgv, brilliant, thanks!
08:48	noidi	and thanks for the tips Borkdude
08:48	clgv	I wonder if lazybot could have done it
08:48	clgv	$findfn [:foo :bar] [0 1] {:foo 0, :bar 1}
08:48	lazybot	[clojure.core/zipmap]
08:48	Borkdude	noidi: no problem. a somewhat longer version: (into {} (map-indexed (fn [i e] [e i]) [:a :b]))
08:49	clgv	yes he could have :)
08:49	noidi	whaaat?! :D
08:49	Borkdude	clgv: heheh, cool :)
08:49	noidi	that's crazy
08:49	clgv	$inc lazybot
08:49	lazybot	⇒ 2
08:49	noidi	$findfn 2 2 4
08:49	lazybot	[clojure.core/unchecked-multiply clojure.core/+ clojure.core/* clojure.core/unchecked-add clojure.core/+' clojure.core/unchecked-multiply-int clojure.core/*' clojure.core/unchecked-add-int]
08:50	noidi	$findfn [:foo :bar] {:foo 0, :bar 1}
08:50	lazybot	[]
08:50	clgv	noidi: he cant compose functions (yet?) ;)
08:50	noidi	clgv, just checking whether's there's something like that in core already :)
08:51	Borkdude	$findarg map % [1 2 3] [-1 -2 -3]
08:51	lazybot	[clojure.core/-' clojure.core/unchecked-negate clojure.core/- clojure.core/unchecked-negate-int]
08:52	clgv	Borkdude: but thats not really composing them on his own ;)
08:52	Borkdude	clgv: right, just trying out if I remembered how it worked ;)
08:52	clgv	yeah that one is pretty cool as well
08:53	noidi	is that built on clojure.core.logic?
08:53	clgv	noidi: I dont think so. Just plain bruteforce ;)
08:53	Borkdude	noidi: check github, it just trying all fns and see if they work ;
08:53	Borkdude	;)
08:54	Borkdude	$findarg map % [:a :b] {:a 0 :b 1}
08:54	lazybot	[]
08:54	Borkdude	$findarg mapcat % [:a :b] {:a 0 :b 1}
08:54	lazybot	[]
08:55	Borkdude	$findarg map-indexed % [:a :b] {:a 0 :b 1}
08:55	lazybot	[]
08:55	Borkdude	I give up ;)
08:56	Borkdude	$findarg %1 %2 [:a :b] {:a 0 :b 1} ;; clojure.logic do your thang! ;P
08:56	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: %1 in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)
09:08	fbru02	hey guys i talked today with clgv about multiple fn sigs .. i have a problem one side i have (fn ([a] (..)) ([& b] (..)) this doesn't work b/c the compiler needs the variadic to be longer than the single parameter
09:08	fbru02	ways to get around this?
09:09	raek	(fn ([a] (..)) ([a & b] (..)) ?
09:09	clgv	fbru02: no. you have to have at least as many parameters in the variadic sig as in the longest non variadic one
09:09	fbru02	ok will try re disgning then
09:09	clgv	fbru02: otherwise the compiler has no clue which one to take
09:10	fbru02	thanks ! :)
09:13	hcumberdale	Are clojure applications 'really' running in multiple parallel threads in the JVM?
09:13	clgv	hcumberdale: depends how you write them
09:13	Wild_Cat	and how the JVM schedules them. As I recall it has M-N threading, right?
09:23	hcumberdale	Why is there no "default concurrency" ? clgv what are you meaning with "how"? Have I to add explicit commands to get concurrency?
09:24	clgv	hcumberdale: sure. did you ever see a system where thats automatic? I think thats semantically impossible
09:25	kephale	clgv: well, one could rename pmap as map, then call concurrency automatic : P
09:26	hcumberdale	clgv => Haskell ?
09:26	clgv	kephale: lol and get worse performance in a lot of cases... ;)
09:27	clgv	hcumberdale: sure? I dont know haskell but I dont think that it automatically tries to do everything in parallel since that would be inefficient due to scheduling overhead if you have only small tasks.
09:27	kephale	clgv: sure, explicit concurrency is definitely the way to go. when it comes to a shared environment you really need it to be explicit unless you use sandboxes everywhere
09:29	chouser	There are languages that have ubiquitous parallelism (a bit like Clojure has ubiquitious lazy seqs) but I don't know that any got past "research language" stage.
09:29	kephale	although i guess that comes back to just being able to control the thread pool
09:32	kephale	chouser: GPU languages
09:33	hcumberdale	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Parallel
09:33	hcumberdale	clgv: Haskell supports both pure parallelism and explicit concurrency.
09:33	cemerick	is no one using fortress for real work then?
09:34	hcumberdale	never heard of fortress ;(
09:35	clgv	hcumberdale: but that wikipage seems as if you have to use special "things" as well for pure parallelism
09:36	hcumberdale	I think it does not explain anything about the pure parallelism (which must be switched explicit on by a command line switch if I remember)...
09:37	clgv	hcumberdale: but to answer your question - you have to tell clojure when you want to do something in parallel ;)
09:37	hcumberdale	okay! ... good to know
09:38	hcumberdale	http://goo.gl/MCNi8
09:38	Fossi	erlang programs can easily be pretty parallel, but other than that i rarely saw another example
09:38	hcumberdale	"To compile a Haskell program for parallel execution under PVM, use the -parallel option"
09:39	hcumberdale	Mhhh Intresting how they do such a parallel execution.... really everything in parallel will lead to a lot cpu time for threat management
09:39	hcumberdale	threat => thread ... hmpf, new keyboard
09:39	kephale	hence why GPUs are the best example ; D
09:42	cemerick	hcumberdale: it's a modern fortran, built on the JVM. All operations are automatically parallelized.
09:42	clgv	hcumberdale: I remember that haskell is said to have pretty leight weight internal threads. maybe that avoids overhead.
09:42	cemerick	I'd point at the project's wiki, but it looks like they got migrated to java.net, so it's an impossible mess.
09:48	hcumberdale	Does anyone using clojure for real world projects?
09:48	hcumberdale	What are your thougths about scala?
09:50	samaaron	so has anyone gotten avout working?
09:51	samaaron	I'm getting a run-in-transaction exception when i try to get the example working
09:51	hhutch_	samaaron: I'm interested in hearing how people are going to use it
09:51	cemerick	hcumberdale: a small sample: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Clojure+Success+Stories
09:55	hcumberdale	Nice samples, thx cemerick
09:56	cemerick	of course, there's a lot more under the surface
09:56	hcumberdale	Are there tools to profile clojure performance and control flow?
09:56	cemerick	with some fiddling, standard JVM profilers work well with clojure codebases
09:57	cemerick	yourkit is fairly popular; I've always had good results with the standard jvisualvm toolchain
10:05	jweiss-bbl	when a macro expansion includes a symbol is that symbol resolved in the ns where the macro is defined, or where it's expanded? (looks to be like the latter)
10:06	AWizzArd\|work	Lein 1.6.2 ends in an NPE when doing "lein deploy" under Windows. I specified the "releases" and "snapshots" repos in :deploy-repositories. Ideas?
10:08	TimMc	jweiss: A bare symbol?
10:08	jweiss	TimMc: yeah
10:10	jweiss	TimMc: i'm testing serializable.fn, which uses its own definition of fn. but the unit test tool test.clj uses deftest, which refers to fn. So i'm wondering if the test tool is producing "tests" with the new fn rather than core's.
10:10	TimMc	aha
10:10	TimMc	So you may actually have an excuse to care. :-)
10:12	TimMc	(let [x 100] (defmacro bare [& _] (list `+ 'x 3)))
10:12	TimMc	(let [x 4] (bare)) => 7
10:13	TimMc	Makes sense.
10:14	TimMc	This is the opposite of capturing a symbol. What is it called?
10:15	DerGuteMoritz	TimMc: I think this is also referred to as capturing a binding
10:15	jweiss	TimMc: but you're doing all this in the same ns
10:15	DerGuteMoritz	jweiss: x is a local binding!
10:15	jweiss	you'd have to defmacro, then switch ns and 'use' x
10:15	jweiss	yeah, my issue is not with locals, but def's
10:16	DerGuteMoritz	oh right, defmacro works on ns level only anyway
10:16	TimMc	Well, I think the same stuff applies -- the result of the macro contains an unresolved symbol.
10:16	TimMc	(eval '(+ 3 3)) works just as well as (eval `(+ 3 3))
10:16	jweiss	TimMc: ok so it does do what i thought, the symbol is resolved in the ns where the expansion happens
10:17	TimMc	the call site of the macro, you might say
10:17	DerGuteMoritz	jweiss: is it clojure parlance to refer to a `let' binding as `ns'?
10:17	jweiss	so if for instance, fn points to serializable.fn/fn then deftest will expand to use that
10:17	DerGuteMoritz	well, a `let' scope
10:17	jweiss	DerGuteMoritz: ns = namespace
10:18	DerGuteMoritz	jweiss: yeah but `x' is not part of a namespace as in clojure namespace
10:18	jweiss	yeah
10:18	jweiss	so it's not the same kind of example as mine
10:18	DerGuteMoritz	oh I didn't see the part of the discussion before TimMc's example
10:19	TimMc	jweiss: I think I see what you're getting at -- you want to (re-)resolve a symbol in the macro's namespace?
10:19	jweiss	hm, so this is rather complicated. who would have thought fn serialization would be so frought with complex issues
10:19	TimMc	heh
10:19	DerGuteMoritz	TimMc: these kinds of macros are also called unhygienic in case you didn't know
10:19	TimMc	very
10:20	jweiss	yeah, but clojure.test's macro isn't unhygenic
10:20	jweiss	is hygenic i guess
10:22	DerGuteMoritz	jweiss: if it shadows a binding of the environment the macro is expanded it then it is unhygienic
10:22	jweiss	maybe i don't know the exact meaning of hygenic. if a macro expands to a bare symbol, that symbol could be made to resolve to anything depending on where the macro is expanded
10:22	DerGuteMoritz	s,expanded it,expanded in,
10:23	DerGuteMoritz	jweiss: yes, thus the explicit renaming with #
10:23	TimMc	jweiss: So... you are concerned that in serializeable.fn's test code, deftest may be pulling in core.fn?
10:23	DerGuteMoritz	oh wait, I may have gotten that one wrong
10:23	jweiss	TimMc: i think deftest is pulling in serializable.fn/fn
10:23	TimMc	jweiss: Just do a macroexpand, yeah?
10:23	jweiss	which theoretically should be ok if serializable.fn/fn works, but that's what we're testing!
10:24	TimMc	aha
10:24	jweiss	clojure.test i guess didn't foresee that we'd be testing a different fn macro.
10:25	jweiss	i guess we could get around this by not "use"ing in fn in the test script.
10:25	TimMc	jweiss: :exclude
10:26	TimMc	I think that exists...
10:26	jweiss	TimMc: you mean refer-clojure :exclude?
10:26	jweiss	it already does that to avoid the conflict with clojure.core/fn
10:26	jweiss	i'm saying it should leave that alone so deftest won't use the wrong one
10:27	TimMc	jweiss: No, like (use '[clojure.string :exclude [replace reverse]])
10:27	jweiss	TimMc: oh, hehe there's only one var in the ns that is needed
10:27	TimMc	you could exclude serializeable.fn's fn
10:27	TimMc	hah
10:27	jweiss	so if you exlcude it there's nothing left
10:28	jweiss	crap, i think this is a real dilemma.
10:29	jweiss	if i let fn refer to clojure.core, then the "round trip" testing of serialize/deserialize/serialize/deserialize will fail
10:30	jweiss	if i let it refer to serializable.fn/fn, then deftest will be using the code it's trying to test.
10:35	jweiss	ok, i tried just "require"ing serializable.fn, and using fully-qualified symbol fn, so deftest is happy, and the tests pass. so i guess that is the solution.
10:37	jweiss	but i'm using serializable.fn in a differnt way than intended (which is for it to replace fn)
10:46	kzar	What's the literal equivilent for (keyword "hello world")? (I'm not sure how to type a keyword with a space.)
10:48	duck1123	you can't
10:49	duck1123	that's why spaces in keywords are fun in #clojure, but not as great in real life
10:52	gtrak	so, say I want to make a DSL, how hard would it be to have a context-sensitive autocomplete facility based on the DSL? I'm thinking like declarative guis a-la mxml, though nicer because it's clojure :-).
10:54	duck1123	it's kind of a shame there is no XSD for clojure forms
10:55	jamiltron	What is XSD?
10:55	duck1123	There needs to be a documented protocol, where you can assign documentation a record's parts
10:55	gtrak	yea, maybe the rules engine would be useful for somethign like that?
10:55	duck1123	XSD is the structure language for xml
10:55	jamiltron	Oh thanks
10:56	gtrak	the dynamicity can work against you though
10:56	duck1123	now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure it would work.
10:58	gtrak	I'm just sad flex is dying :-(
10:58	duck1123	it might be kinda cool to have common html tag name completion for [:html ] forms
10:58	gtrak	there were really a lot of nice things about it
10:59	gtrak	yea
10:59	gtrak	the mxml approach wasn't too terrible actually
11:00	gtrak	maybe could just write your stuff in xml and use CDATA for clojure forms :-)
11:01	gtrak	http://www.sephiroth.it/test/flex/2/checkbox3state/bin/srcview/source/example.mxml.html
11:01	gtrak	it looks ugly at first, but it's really easy to mess with and learn interactively
11:02	jodaro	flex is dying?
11:02	gtrak	it just got donated to apache a couple weeks ago
11:02	duck1123	I've been using closure templates in my personal project, and while it's nice, I have to save the file, and then go re-eval a coresponding template ns
11:02	gtrak	I'm guessing that means that adobe's not paying people to work on it
11:03	jodaro	oh
11:03	jodaro	that'll slow it down, for sure
11:03	gtrak	duck1123, does that work for composing guis?
11:04	duck1123	there was an "apache considered harmful" article I read recently that was rather interesting
11:04	jodaro	i guess it depends on the project
11:04	jodaro	but
11:04	jodaro	i've had mixed experiences with apache stuff over the years
11:04	jodaro	like
11:04	jodaro	did thrift ever get a real release?
11:04	duck1123	gtrak: If I understand your question, you can break it down to a series of small templates and include them
11:05	TimMc	jweiss: I think :require is appropriate for serializeable.fn's testing.
11:05	jodaro	oh i guess it did finally
11:05	duck1123	gtrak: ex https://github.com/duck1123/jiksnu/blob/master/resources/soy/jiksnu/templates/activity.soy
11:05	jodaro	and i guess hadoop and friends have done well
11:06	duck1123	I hate their insistance on SVN
11:06	jweiss	TimMc: ok, it would appear that :use'ing it can have some unintended consequences. serializable.fn should be transparent
11:06	jweiss	since all it does is add meta to the fn object
11:07	duck1123	I've been using the new Abdera 2 code, and when it breaks, I would totally make fixes if I had a git repo
11:07	gtrak	duck1123, I've been doing something similar with stringtemplate
11:08	duck1123	The promise of soy templates (that I haven't used yet) is that I can use these same templates in clojurescript
11:08	hhutch	duck1123: you can't just use git-svn ?
11:08	gtrak	oo, you can call functions from the template?
11:08	duck1123	hhutch: the messed up nature of their repo makes that impossible. I tried
11:08	gtrak	or is that another template? {call jiksnu.templates.user.linkTo data="$recipient" /}
11:08	hhutch	duck1123: fail
11:09	duck1123	You can't call out from the template, you have to keep view and data separate
11:09	duck1123	gtrak: that's another template
11:09	gtrak	stringtemplate has some annoyances
11:09	gtrak	i don't really like dynamic scoping
11:09	duck1123	the downside is I had to write special formatter function that converted my model to the limited set of types it supports
11:10	gtrak	doesn't it handle Maps?
11:10	duck1123	but it forces a strict "no logic in views"
11:10	hlship	Is there a link to Clojure's issue tracker anywhere on clojure.org?
11:10	gtrak	~jira
11:10	clojurebot	to be fair I dunno that I've ever had code out right rejected, it just sits in jira or assembla or where ever, or if I ask if there is any interest (before writing any code) I get told to go write alioth benchmarks
11:11	duck1123	it handles map. it doesn't handle jodatime dates, Mongodb object ids, or even long
11:11	gtrak	ah
11:11	duck1123	wait, it might handle long
11:11	gtrak	does it just do toString?
11:13	duck1123	I don't believe so
11:15	gtrak	if so, you could just implement a new Object
11:16	duck1123	I really only have a few objects in my records it can't handle. When I first started youing it, my thought was "I'll just pass this whole map to the template and be done." not so. :(
11:16	rickmode	I though I saw yesterday that slime could examine a Java class. What was the key combination?
11:16	gtrak	C-S I O or something?
11:17	gtrak	"technomancy_: leo2007: sure, just use C-S-i and enter a java class, it will list all the methods"
11:19	AWizzArd\|work	$seen rhickey
11:19	lazybot	rhickey was last seen quitting 6 weeks and 6 days ago.
11:20	jweiss	I think 'C-c I' will inspect the class at point
11:21	rickmode	gtrak: thanks... it's not working for me though. At ^C-^S and ^C-S are both undefined
11:21	gtrak	I think C is actually the control button
11:22	rickmode	gtrak - it's the slime-inspect command. So ya.. it's Ctrl-C Shift-I
11:22	gtrak	ah ok
11:23	rickmode	gtrak - sweeeet... let time popping between my IDE and emacs
11:23	duck1123	rickmode: just so you know, that's usually written C-c M-l
11:23	duck1123	er S-l
11:24	duck1123	I never understood why Shift was more of an S than "super"
11:24	jweiss	C-c S-i
11:25	rickmode	duck1123: ah - the help (C-h m) uses ^C ⇧I and similar. I'm still like a yellow belt at my emacs-fu
11:30	gtrak	hmm, clojure forms schema, pattern matching?
11:36	rickmode	I've been looking for a good overview of what's new in Clojure 1.3. Things like the the newer ^static and ^inline metdata for defs and such.
11:38	duck1123	there's the changelog, but they don't get too in-depth
11:42	gfredericks	dnolen: I wasn't awake 11 hours ago, but I did run the included tests this morning and saw they all passed
11:43	dnolen	gfredericks: excellent
11:43	gfredericks	dnolen: I'll run mine real quick too just to be thorough
11:43	dnolen	great let me know and I'll cut another alpha
11:45	gfredericks	dnolen: all passing
11:46	dnolen	great
11:48	dnolen	releasing alpha9 now
12:11	jcrossley3	hi, is there any way to define a multifn and declare that all existing multifns that would also match are preferred to it? (if that makes any sense)
12:12	jcrossley3	essentially, a wildcard passed to prefer-method, i guess
12:13	michael_campbell	what does it mean to prefer > 1?
12:13	hiredman	if you call methods on a multifn you get back a map of dispatch values to fns, so you could build something like that
12:15	jcrossley3	hiredman: yes, i considered that, but i'm concerned about defmethods occuring after that.
12:17	jcrossley3	i'd like my method to be a fallback in case a defmethod for any of a types ancestors hasn't been defined
12:18	jcrossley3	michael_campbell: by "prefer > 1" i meant "prefer any methods defined over this one"
12:20	dnolen	jcrossley3: is that not satisfied by providing :default?
12:21	jcrossley3	dnolen: hmm... maybe! thanks :)
12:23	jcrossley3	dnolen: YES! (thanks again) :D
12:28	michael_campbell	jcrossley3: Ah, I see. I was thinking more along the lines of "I prefer blondes", but am unwilling to narrow it down much further. ;-)
12:28	jcrossley3	:)
12:29	dnolen	jcrossley3: np
12:36	kzar	technomancy_: FYI I think this is a Heroku bug, I set a worker to be `worker: lein run -m app-name.worker/-main` which worked locally but on Heroku gave me an exception "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate _main__init.class or _main.clj on classpath". When I changed the Procfile to ommit the "/-main" it worked both locally and on Heroku
12:41	technomancy_	kzar: that sounds more like a Leiningen bug
12:41	technomancy_	did you end up getting it switched to 1.6.2 or are you still on 1.5.2?
12:42	kzar	technomancy: Hmm I added the buildpack to a different project, I'm not sure which is running on this project ATM but I haven't added a special buildpack
12:43	technomancy	oh, ok; if you haven't changed the buildpack it would be running on 1.5.2.
12:44	technomancy	I know there were some improvements to the -main handling in 1.6; I'm not sure app-name.worker/-main was ever supported on 1.5.2
12:44	kzar	technomancy: Want me to add it and see if the problem persists?
12:44	technomancy	yeah, why don't you give it a go
12:53	kzar	technomancy: Yea, that fixed it
12:53	technomancy	sweet =)
12:53	kzar	Sorry, should have tried it before
12:55	technomancy	nah, it should be on by default for everyone
12:55	technomancy	I'll see if I can get a few more people testing it and hopefully make it default next week
12:56	kzar	technomancy: Cool yea, I haven't had any trouble with it. Oh I wanted to ask, am I right in thinking workers are a process that gets left running all the time and can be used for processing things in the background?
12:56	technomancy	kzar: yeah, that's the general idea. usually pulling work off a queue or out of a DB, but not directly exposed to user requests over HTTP.
12:57	technomancy	I'm working on a devcenter article on the topic.
12:57	konr	How can I use C functions in clojure?
12:58	kzar	technomancy: Cool throw it my way when you're done :) . Gotta run anyway, cya
12:58	technomancy	cheers
13:00	dnolen	konr: JNA or JNI
13:01	konr	dnolen: thanks!
14:01	gfredericks	dnolen: I just updated my deps to alpha-8, and everything looks good. Thanks for the quick fix!
14:04	daniel__1	can anyone tell me why `lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.3` is giving me:
14:04	daniel__1	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.KeywordLookupSite.<init>(ILclojure/lang/Keyword;)V
14:05	gfredericks	daniel__1: last time I saw that technomancy said something about clojure 1.3 in the dev deps. No clue how/if that applies to your case though.
14:05	gfredericks	doesn't sound too related :/
14:06	daniel__1	hmmm ok
14:07	technomancy	it could be clojure 1.3 or it could be code compiled with clojure 1.3; one of those is sneaking into the Leiningen process where it doesn't belong
14:07	technomancy	check dev-deps and user-level plugins
14:10	daniel__1	what am i searching for?
14:10	technomancy	daniel__1: just move your ~/.lein/plugins dir out of the way, and if it still breaks then the problem is in your dev deps
14:11	daniel__1	that did it
14:11	daniel__1	my only plugin was nailgun-server
14:11	duck1123	see if the clojure 1.3 jar is in lib/dev/
14:11	daniel__1	working now
14:12	daniel__1	thank yous!
14:13	daniel__1	beautiful, now i just need to learn how to use emacs
14:13	technomancy	just don't let it get in the way of clojure
14:14	daniel__1	i think all i need to know is how to move back and forward from the swank / code windows
14:14	daniel__1	buffers
14:14	daniel__1	frames
14:14	daniel__1	whatever they're called
14:15	duck1123	if you're using the starter kit shift + arrow
14:15	duck1123	otherwise C-x o (for other)
14:16	daniel__1	C-x o :)
14:16	daniel__1	what starter kit?
14:17	amalloy	$google technomancy emacs starter kit
14:17	lazybot	[technomancy/emacs-starter-kit - GitHub] https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
14:25	daniel__1	how do i get the repl up if i open emacs again?
14:25	daniel__1	swank clojure is already running so jack-in fails
14:28	patrkris_	which HTTP client library are people recommending for clojure these days? clj-http? contrib.http.agent?
14:28	technomancy	clojurebot: http?
14:28	clojurebot	dakrone maintains clj-http
14:28	technomancy	~botsnack
14:28	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
14:28	technomancy	=(
14:29	patrkris_	:)
14:29	hiredman	huh, thats new
14:30	Raynes	$botsnack because clojurebot couldn't get his doesn't mean you shouldn't get one.
14:30	lazybot	Raynes: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
14:32	gtrak	$botsmack
14:32	hiredman	~botsnack
14:32	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
14:33	Raynes	gtrak: He doesn't respond to violence thankyouverymuch.
14:33	gtrak	he just takes it quietly?
14:34	TimMc	clever bot
14:36	jweiss	is there a way to tell whether a fn call returns a lazy sequence (possibly infinite)? i'm writing a trace function, and when i attempt to trace a fn call like (iterate inc 1) it blows up obviously.
14:36	jweiss	,(class (iterate inc 1))
14:36	TimMc	,(class (range))
14:36	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
14:36	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
14:36	jweiss	is (iterate inc 1) a special case?
14:37	jweiss	or should i just consider Cons the same as LazySeq (don't try to print the return value)
14:37	gtrak	,(class (iterate inc 2))
14:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
14:37	gtrak	Cons is just a cons cell, value and ISeq for rest i think
14:38	gtrak	it doesn't say anything about its laziness
14:38	jweiss	gtrak: right, but it could be infinite, which would blow up my trace fn
14:38	gtrak	right
14:38	gtrak	or it could not be :-)
14:38	TimMc	jweiss: Then don't walk down it forever, I guess.
14:38	TimMc	What is your "trace fn"?
14:39	jweiss	TimMc: https://github.com/weissjeffm/fn.trace/blob/master/src/fn/trace.clj
14:39	gtrak	private final Object _first; private final ISeq _more;
14:39	amalloy	jweiss: if printing it is what's hard, then bind ##(doc print-length) and let clojure handle it for you
14:39	lazybot	⇒ "; print-length controls how many items of each collection the printer will print. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum number of items of each collection to print. If a collection co... https://gist.github.com/1419263
14:40	jweiss	amalloy: ah, that's a neat solution :)
14:40	jweiss	thought i had already set that but I guess not
14:41	jweiss	amalloy: i'm not sure if you saw the discussing this morning around serializable.fn
14:41	amalloy	no
14:41	jweiss	i think replacing fn with serializable.fn/fn isn't ideal
14:41	jweiss	i know you did that so the double round trip test would work
14:42	jweiss	but like the first serialization, any subsequent one should depend on whether the namespace uses serializable.fn/fn in place of fn
14:43	jweiss	and even weirder, it turns out that clojure.test/deftest expands into fn. so deftest is using serializable fn, which is what it is supposed to be testing.
14:43	jweiss	so i think that (:use [serializable.fn]) is bad in that test namespace.
14:43	daniel__1	i cant get my repl back after re-opening emacs
14:43	amalloy	no, yuck. if your namespace doesn't work properly unless the client :use-s your namespace, your namespace is broken
14:44	jweiss	amalloy: it still works properly when you just require it.
14:44	jweiss	you just have to refer to it with the full name
14:45	jweiss	https://github.com/weissjeffm/serializable-fn
14:45	amalloy	right, unless you make the serialization be fn instead of serializable.fn/fn
14:45	jweiss	that's what i did
14:45	jweiss	the test namespace is doing really bad stuff otherwise
14:45	amalloy	uhh
14:46	jweiss	deftest expands into (fn ...)
14:46	jweiss	which in that ns is serializable.fn/fn
14:46	amalloy	okay, so (a) deftest is a little broken, and (b) so what?
14:46	TimMc	Why does that mean deftest is broken?
14:46	jweiss	deftest is broken because it doesn't explicitly say clojure.core/fn ?
14:47	amalloy	yes. macros shouldn't expand to unqualified symbols unless they have a good reason
14:47	TimMc	...
14:48	jweiss	amalloy: but your change to use serializable.fn/fn in the meta, that was so the tests would pass :)
14:48	jweiss	and the tests fail because deftest is broken
14:48	amalloy	no it wasn't. i added that test
14:48	jweiss	oh
14:48	amalloy	it's because i wanted that feature
14:48	TimMc	amalloy: deftest uses `(fn ...)
14:48	jweiss	i forgot i pulled from your fork
14:49	amalloy	TimMc: i was taking jweiss's word for it that deftest expands to 'fn
14:49	amalloy	in fairness though deftest is also broken in five or six other creative ways
14:49	TimMc	heh
14:49	jweiss	well in fairness to me, i did ask this channel if that is what was happening :)
14:50	technomancy	amalloy: the special casing of thrown? is particularly wacky
14:50	technomancy	actually, that's c.t/is, but whatever
14:51	amalloy	technomancy: right, i'm referring to the way it plays hell with macros
14:51	jweiss	TimMc: actually you asked me if it was a bare symbol, i said yes but didn't notice it was ` instead of '
14:51	amalloy	like, you can't use macrolet around (or inside of iirc) a deftest
14:52	y3di	,(conj [1 2 3] 4)
14:52	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
14:52	amalloy	because (deftest x (y z)) expands to something bizarre like putting (y z) into the meta of x instead of the body, and macrolet doesn't know to go look inside the meta
14:53	technomancy	what if c.j.shell had a sh! defn that threw exceptions on nonzero exit codes?
14:53	technomancy	is that bang-abuse?
14:53	amalloy	technomancy: i prefer sh?
14:53	technomancy	but it's not a predicate?
14:53	amalloy	well i made that judgement in ten seconds, gimme a break if it's terrible
14:54	amalloy	or, haha, call it "ohsh!"
14:54	duck1123	technomancy: I would find that useful (whatever it's named)
14:54	technomancy	amalloy: it's ok; the non-sequitur question mark reminded me of dinosaur comics, and I had some catching up to do.
14:55	y3di	how would i get all the items in a list except the last one?
14:55	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:55	amalloy	&(doc butlast)
14:55	lazybot	⇒ "([coll]); Return a seq of all but the last item in coll, in linear time"
14:55	y3di	ty
14:55	joegallo	,(doc drop-last)
14:55	clojurebot	"([s] [n s]); Return a lazy sequence of all but the last n (default 1) items in coll"
14:55	amalloy	dinosaur comics: leading advocate of wikipedia vandalism since, i dunno, a week or two agi?
14:55	joegallo	also
14:56	y3di	,((fn revvv [x] (cons (first x) (revvv (butlast x)))) [1 2 3 4])
14:56	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
14:57	ggherdov	Hi all. I've heard that Rich Hickey doesn't have a formal background in CS. that's quite impressive. does anybody know more of his bio?
14:57	gtrak	ggherdov, what's a formal background? :-)
14:57	ggherdov	ok. I mean: he didn't do CS at college.
14:57	gtrak	you mean like a degree?
14:58	ggherdov	yeah.
14:58	foodoo	there was a paper on C++ types that he wrote a long time ago...
14:58	gtrak	he did music composition
14:58	y3di	,(butlast [1])
14:58	clojurebot	nil
14:58	cemerick	He taught C++ at some college in NYC for a while. shrug
14:58	ggherdov	what I wander is: how did he became that good,
14:58	foodoo	practise
14:58	gtrak	as far as I can tell, he reads a LOT
14:59	ggherdov	foodoo: a pointer to that paper? pun intended :)
14:59	duck1123	I know he worked with a lot of realtime systems. voting machines?
15:00	foodoo	ggherdov: It was mentioned in a talk. I'll check if I can find that talk
15:00	foodoo	ggherdov: it was mentioned right at the beginning
15:01	duck1123	it was one of the really old ones
15:01	y3di	,(cons 1 1)
15:01	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
15:01	ggherdov	I mean, realtime systems. That's hardcore stuff. How can you get involved in such a career w/o training.
15:01	gtrak	he was an independent consultant for 15 years?
15:01	ggherdov	foodoo: thx
15:01	gtrak	or more?
15:01	duck1123	no formal training != no training
15:01	gtrak	ggherdov, it's really not that hard, 3-5 years of deliberate study and you can do lots of things
15:01	Borkdude	isn't it a bit ugly that when you want to "use" core.logic, you have to exclude == ?
15:01	ggherdov	duck1123: sure. but 'formal' is somehow easier to get.
15:02	y3di	,(butlast [1 2])
15:02	ggherdov	gtrak: sure, but if you have a day job, time is an issue.
15:02	clojurebot	(1)
15:02	ggherdov	\energy too.
15:03	duck1123	what formal training have you had in clojure, you know clojure because you had a desire to learn it.
15:03	duck1123	was anyone here forced to use clojure?
15:03	y3di	(cons 1 nil)
15:03	y3di	,(cons 1 nil)
15:03	clojurebot	(1)
15:03	ggherdov	duck1123: i see the point, but i was trained to haskell, caml and stuff.
15:03	TimMc	y3di: You can /msg the bots
15:04	y3di	alright, will do
15:04	gtrak	ggherdov, if you do 15% more studying than the average programmer, you'll learn twice as much every 5 years
15:05	gtrak	or something like that :-)
15:05	joegallo	not quite, i think, but it's a nice idea
15:05	daniel__1	i cant get my repl back after re-opening emacs (swank-clojure) heeeelp
15:05	TimMc	Only a couple of my college courses actually helped me become a better programmer.
15:06	duck1123	daniel__1: M-x slime-connect
15:06	Borkdude	formal training can set you on the wrong path for a long time ;)
15:06	technomancy	daniel__1: if you started swank via jack-in, then the swank server will not outlast emacs
15:06	zakwilson	https://gist.github.com/1415370 <-- ClojureQL seems to be generating unreasonable output here in terms of the order of the joins. Changing the order in the Clojure code doesn't affect the order in the SQL it emits.
15:06	daniel__1	hmm technomancy, ok
15:07	zakwilson	Though if I'm just doing something dumb, I'd like to know.
15:07	duck1123	I think my favorite was the class I took on C++ data structures. I was just getting into my love of Clojure and learning exactly how things like vectors and sets were supposed to work really helped
15:07	daniel__1	error in process filter: error during connect: connection refused
15:07	daniel__1	it worked the first time, now it won't open up
15:08	gtrak	compilers was enlightening for me
15:08	Borkdude	Common Lisp was enlightening for me, but it wasn't taught at my CS faculty
15:09	foodoo	ggherdov: found it! http://blip.tv/clojure/michael-fogus-fertile-ground-the-roots-of-clojure-4519764 (The quote on C++ from Rich's paper is pretty much at the beginning)
15:09	foodoo	And I really love the way the Clojure community does presentations :D
15:09	Borkdude	The first programming course we got was a functional programming course though
15:10	Borkdude	Miranda
15:10	foodoo	at university? We had Haskell
15:10	foodoo	Which is a great language but a bad choice if you want to foster enthusiasm in students when it comes learning how to programming
15:11	dnolen	gfredericks: np
15:11	gtrak	i had the scheme class freshman year, i didn't pay too much attention to it but i think it might be responsible for the initial mind-warp
15:11	gtrak	sadly they're on python now
15:11	jweiss	looking back on my 'formal training' in CS, we used Turing, Java, Perl, C. the only one that's a good learning experience IMO is C.
15:12	duck1123	I wonder how well Clojure does as a introductory level when people have no pre-conceived OOP or procedural notions
15:12	foodoo	jweiss: in the context of your studies at your university?
15:12	Borkdude	maybe Haskell was a bit too new in 99, I don't know why they chose Miranda, I've never used it since
15:12	Borkdude	duck1123: me 2..
15:12	jweiss	foodoo: no, in general, but even in the context of the classes
15:13	gtrak	duck1123, drscheme had various settings of having to know about details, it was helpful, there was a beginner mode
15:13	gtrak	i think freshmen wouldn't handle clojure's stack traces well
15:14	foodoo	true
15:14	jweiss	scheme would have been a much better choice for first language. i started with BASIC :)
15:14	zakwilson	Yeah, those aren't user-friendly.
15:14	jweiss	not that my commodore 64 had a scheme interpreter.
15:14	foodoo	My personal recommendation as a first language is Lua. It's simple, elegant but not useless.
15:15	aphyr	Having some trouble with the protobuf library. I've added it as a dep in cake, I've got a protobuf-0.5.0-beta4.jar file on my project classpath, but cake test throws "could not locate protobuf__init.class or protobuf.clj".
15:15	jweiss	i once saw a review of langauges based on speed and conciseness, lua won hands-down
15:15	gtrak	I remember scheme just took forever to write, it was demoralizing :-) 6 hours and all you get is 5 lines and a ton of parentheses
15:15	aphyr	Any ideas?
15:15	daniel__1	technomancy: can i get swank-clojure to open automatically when it detects a clojure file? rather than typing clojure-jack-in each time
15:15	mco_	Hi all, I am trying to read a binary file but I am having an issue with signed/unsigned byte..... I need to read at any offset in the file for n bytes. Is there an idiomatic way to do that ?
15:15	Borkdude	the idea that code itself was data really made sense to me, it is an idea so simple, yet brilliant, I still remember when I first discovered Lisp and loved it ever since
15:15	duck1123	I still have my Atari XE. Had to leave it running because I didn't have the tape drive
15:15	technomancy	daniel__1: you could write a hook for that, sure. the start-up time is significant enough that I'd find it annoying to have it invoked automatically personally, but it's possible
15:16	daniel__1	hmm, yeah good point
15:16	jweiss	gtrak: 6 hours of 'find the missing paren'?
15:16	mco_	I am currently using RandomAccessFile. and reading in a byte-array....
15:16	duck1123	I'd love to have the hook that emacs should reconnect and retry if I try to do a slime command and it fails
15:16	gtrak	dude, I got like a 98 in the class, and I remember it took me forever. the insertion sort is forever burned in my retina
15:17	daniel__1	finally my repl came back anyway
15:17	daniel__1	dont know what happened there
15:17	gtrak	jweiss, I think a lot of people would just cheat
15:18	foodoo	ggherdov: did you receive the link to the video?
15:18	ggherdov	foodoo: no.
15:18	ggherdov	I got disconnected,
15:18	ggherdov	didn't mean to be rude.
15:18	foodoo	http://blip.tv/clojure/michael-fogus-fertile-ground-the-roots-of-clojure-4519764
15:18	ggherdov	thx
15:19	foodoo	(downloadable with cclive if you don't like flash)
15:19	daniel__1	the repl seems to load in the user namespace, can't i have it load into the current files namespace?
15:19	gtrak	how does the repl know what file you're in?
15:19	duck1123	C-c M-p
15:20	gtrak	neat
15:20	ggherdov	foodoo: cclive ? what's that?
15:20	foodoo	A video downloader
15:20	ggherdov	ok
15:21	daniel__1	duck1123: Command attempted to use minibuffer while in minibuffer
15:22	mco_	:) has anybody done that before ? reding n bytes from an offset in a binary file ? Please ?
15:22	mco_	have been googling for ages
15:23	mco_	can't be that hard right ?
15:23	raek	mco_: you generally use the Java classes for IO
15:23	duck1123	daniel__1: you already were doing a command when you tried that. hit escape a bunch of times
15:23	raek	RandomAccessFile is good for this
15:23	mco_	@raek: thanks, that is what I did
15:23	mco_	I used RandomAccesFile. .skipBytes .read etc
15:24	mco_	but the unsigned/signed thing limitation for byte-array is driving me nuts
15:24	duck1123	daniel__1: C-g will also break out of stuff in most cases in emacs
15:24	mco_	first byte outside the limits causes an error
15:24	raek	on the JVM signed and unsigned bytes are stored in the same type
15:24	_ulises	hello all
15:24	mco_	user=> IllegalArgumentException Value out of range for char: -96 clojure.lang.RT.charCast (RT.java:907)
15:25	mco_	this is the error I get
15:25	raek	mco_: a character is not the same thing as a byte
15:25	mco_	ahhh sorry, I am a beginner :) surely it is a dumb error :)
15:25	mco_	I am using (.read file x 0 n)
15:25	mco_	to read in a byte-array
15:26	mco_	I allocate before
15:26	daniel__1	duck1123: i lost the repl buffer by pressing escape but i think its still running. how can i get it back?
15:26	gtrak	C-x b
15:26	mco_	(defn read-n-ofs [f n offset func]
15:26	mco_	"Reads n bytes from file f at offset and apply func"
15:26	mco_	(with-open [file (RandomAccessFile. f "r")]
15:26	mco_	(.skipBytes file offset)
15:26	mco_	(let [x (byte-array n)]
15:26	mco_	(.read file x 0 n)
15:26	mco_	(func x))))
15:26	mco_	sorry guys
15:27	daniel__1	thanks gtrak
15:27	raek	mco_: ok looks fine (use http://gist.github.com/ next time). you can also use the .seek method
15:27	duck1123	I hightly recommend creating a binding for M-x slime-selector. I have it bound to C-c s so my repl ic C-c s r
15:27	raek	but that .read call should give you an array of n bytes
15:27	gtrak	daniel__1, also check out M-x describe-bindings
15:27	_ulises	duck1123: I think with C-c C-z it jumps to the repl buffer
15:27	TimMc	gtrak: What school did you go to?
15:27	gtrak	georgia tech
15:28	raek	or more accurately: up to n bytes
15:28	daniel__1	having the same problem starting swank again now :(
15:28	daniel__1	clojure-jack-in-sentinel(#<process swank> "exited abnormally with code 129\n")
15:28	duck1123	_ulises: not for me
15:28	gtrak	TimMc, i think we just do whatever MIT does
15:28	gtrak	:-)
15:28	mco_	raek: but the first byte that is outside signed values causes the Exception I have noticed
15:28	gtrak	but i didn't get a CS degree
15:28	_ulises	duck1123: interesting; that's the binding I get in my clojure-mode
15:29	duck1123	_ulises: I take that back. I had to be on a clojure-mode buffer. The slime selector route is global
15:29	raek	mco_: what do you do with the bytes? to me it does not seem that the error is in the read-n-ofs function
15:29	_ulises	ah!
15:29	y3di	can anyone help me figure out whats wrong with this:
15:29	y3di	,((fn revvv [x] (cons (last x) (revvv (butlast x)))) [1 2 3])
15:29	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
15:30	mco_	raek: I use func to post-process whatever I have read ( build a string or calc an integer value)
15:30	duck1123	y3di: I think you want to wrap that in lazy-seq
15:30	mco_	raek: #(apply str (map char %)) to get a string for example
15:30	raek	mco_: the exception you mentioned means that you are trying to turn a byte into a char incorrectly
15:31	mco_	raek: ah okay, here is the error : (make-byte-array [1 210 3] )
15:31	TimMc	gtrak: Ah, makes sense. I know that MIT switched from Lisp/Scheme to Python for intro, but I didn't think they had used DrScheme before. :-)
15:31	raek	mco_: you should use the classes in java.nio.charset to convert bytes to strings
15:32	mco_	raek: aah thanks !! I will investigate this
15:32	y3di	duck1123: wrap the revvv function in lazy-seq?
15:33	y3di	duck1123: i
15:33	y3di	duck1123: i'm new to clojure so excuse my lack of understanding
15:33	daniel__1	duck1123: i get Package: evolve.core [no match] when i try and go to this namespace :(
15:33	TimMc	mco_: Why does your function take a function? Just compose.
15:33	TimMc	easier to test and understand
15:34	duck1123	y3di: I'm having a hard time figureing out why that's overflowing in my head. one sec
15:34	raek	mco_: you first need to create a Charset instance for the encoding your text is in (def charset (Charset/forName "UTF-8"))
15:34	mco_	TimMC: thanks ! I'll look it up
15:34	duck1123	daniel__1: the namespace needs to be required first. C-c C-k to load that file
15:34	raek	mco_: then you can use .decode or .newDecoder
15:34	daniel__1	C-c C-k is undefined
15:34	gtrak	TimMc, yea, the CS and computer engineering guys took the scheme class, other engineerings took matlab.
15:35	daniel__1	sorry, was in wrong buffer
15:35	raek	mco_: these methods also require the input and outputs to be ByteBuffers and CharBuffers
15:35	daniel__1	gotchaaa
15:35	TimMc	mco_: No, I mean just use good ol' function composition. (func (read-n-ofs ...)) is better than (read-n-ofs ... func).
15:36	raek	mco_: but there is also a more minimal way: (String. the-byte-array "UTF-8")
15:36	duck1123	y3di: try checking if x is not empty (when (seq x) (cons ...
15:36	mco_	TimMC: in fact I defined two other functions on top of that one that build either a string or an integer
15:36	raek	just replace "UTF-8" with whatever the encoding of your text file is
15:37	duck1123	y3di: it's recursively (and not the good kind) calling itself even when there are no more elements in the list
15:37	TimMc	mco_: OK, but it's not as clean.
15:38	mco_	raek: ok, thanks !
15:38	duck1123	y3di: generally, you would want this sequence to be lazy, so you would wrap this whole thing in a lazy-seq, and then check that there are still items left and return the cons cell, that way this whole thing will be lazy
15:38	daniel__1	is there an equivalent for cycling through repl history like using the arrow keys in the terminal?
15:39	duck1123	M-p M-n
15:39	duck1123	those are two commands
15:40	daniel__1	aaah great :)
15:40	duck1123	if you start typing a command and then do that, it'll cycling through matching lines
15:42	TimMc	daniel__1: Analogous to C-p and C-n
15:42	raek	,(String. (byte-array (map byte [72 101 108 108 111 32 47 32 -50 -109 -50 -75 -50 -71 -50 -84 32 -49 -125 -50 -79 -49 -126])) "UTF-8")
15:42	clojurebot	"Hello / Γειά σας"
15:42	Borkdude	Why doesn't this work? (refer '[clojure.core :exclude [==]])
15:42	foodoo	I wonder how much new stuff I will learn from "The Joy of Clojure" after having read "Programming Clojure". Is the first book much more advanced than the latter?
15:43	raek	Borkdude: you need to do it like this: (ns foo.bar (:refer-clojure :exclude [==]))
15:43	mco_	raek: cool! but change one value to , say, -166 and boom
15:43	TimMc	Borkdude: It's too late, you've already included all of core.
15:43	y3di	ty duck1123 i finally got it, im sure my method could be alot better tho for reversing a seq
15:43	raek	mco_: what do you mean?
15:43	y3di	,((fn revvv [x] (cons (last x) (if (not (nil? (butlast x))) (revvv (butlast x)) nil))) [1 2 3])
15:43	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
15:44	Borkdude	TimMc: not if I didn't use clojure.core right?
15:44	raek	mco_: you will never get a -166 from a byte
15:44	TimMc	Borkdude: (ns) does it automatically
15:44	raek	mco_: since bytes are from -128 to 127
15:44	TimMc	&(byte 166) ; mco_
15:44	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for byte: 166
15:44	Borkdude	TimMc: raek I'm on a repl here, so I don't want to type (ns ...)
15:45	Borkdude	doing the examples of https://github.com/clojure/core.logic
15:45	mco_	raek: yes , that's what I'm having a hard time getting used to it seems :)
15:45	duck1123	y3di: it's recommended to prefer (seq coll) over (not (nil? coll))
15:45	TimMc	Borkdude: Whatever set up your REPL already pulled in core. refer can only add stuff.
15:45	mco_	raek: I gotta read more and understand that charset business
15:45	raek	Borkdude: (remove-ns 'foo.bar) (in-ns 'foo.bar) (refer-clojure '(:exclude [==]))
15:45	Borkdude	TimMc: then how could the example work ;)
15:47	raek	mco_: the jvm is a bit weird in that bytes are represented as a value between -128 and 127 instead of between 0 and 255. you can easilly get to the latter from the former like this: (bit-and some-byte 0xff)
15:47	duck1123	y3di: IIRC (not (nil? coll)) is esentially (not (not (seq coll)) and that's just a waste
15:47	raek	,(bit-and -127 0xff)
15:47	clojurebot	129
15:47	Borkdude	raek: still getting the errors, seems to me the example is just not the good way anymore?
15:48	TimMc	duck1123: That's not true for collections in general.
15:48	gtrak	are atoms slow?
15:48	TimMc	not + nil? is cheaper than seq, but seq is correct
15:49	raek	Borkdude: you can't you use ns in the repl?
15:49	Borkdude	raek: I can, I'm just not used to
15:49	duck1123	TimMc: Im'm thinking of (not (empty? ))
15:49	raek	Borkdude: another approach could be to do (ns-unmap ns '==)
15:50	mco_	:raek + TimMC : thanks guys ! I will be programming and reading now ... :)
15:50	raek	if you are in an already existing namespace (like user)
15:50	raek	mco_: a charset defines how bytes correspond to characters.
15:51	Borkdude	raek: I guess (ns my-logic (:refer-clojure :exclude [==])) does it then.
15:51	iLeNsTR	b
15:51	gtrak	$(doc assoc)
15:52	raek	mco_: for instance, what is/are the bytes(s) for the letter "ä"? it depends on which charset that byte stream has.
15:52	mco_	:raek: I got it to work by replacing the last line of that function with (func (map unsigned-byte x))
15:53	mco_	raek: looks like str was the cuplrit ...
15:53	raek	in a file that uses ISO 8859-1, "ä" is encoded as the byte 0xE4, but in a UTF-8 file it is encoded as 0xC3 0xA4
15:53	gtrak	i like that rich hickey uses for(; ;), i feel vindicated :-)
15:54	gtrak	did you guys know java has a do-while?
15:54	raek	mco_: are you turning a byte array into a string without specifying a charset? if so, your code is (probably) broken.
15:56	y3di	,(doc seq)
15:56	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq on the collection. If the collection is empty, returns nil. (seq nil) returns nil. seq also works on Strings, native Java arrays (of reference types) and any objects that implement Iterable."
15:56	raek	mco_: if your byte array is called "byte-array", then just use (String. byte-array "UTF-8")
15:58	TimMc	duck1123: yup
16:01	y3di	into works differently for vectors and lists?
16:01	TimMc	y3di: Just like conj.
16:02	hiredman	y3di: into uses conj
16:02	hiredman	,(conj '(1 2 3) 4)
16:02	clojurebot	(4 1 2 3)
16:02	hiredman	,(conj [1 2 3] 4)
16:02	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
16:02	Borkdude	hmm, now when I evaluate moveo it complains about the symbol pos not able to resolve
16:03	y3di	ok thanks
16:21	TimMc	It is my reasoned conclusion that having first, rest, next, and cons call seq on their argument is just plain confusing to newcomers.
16:21	TimMc	It hides the fact that an API boundary is being crossed.
16:22	tsally	is there a fucntion to call a function on a arg, and then call the function again on the result, n times ?
16:23	duck1123	TimMc: it would be chaos without though
16:23	TimMc	tsally: iterate, I think
16:23	TimMc	or similar
16:23	y3di	is there a way to get clojurebot to understand multiline queries?
16:23	y3di	i doubt it, but i figured id ask
16:24	TimMc	duck1123: Lots more if-lets and other extra calls to seq, eh?
16:24	duck1123	y3di: I think the assumption is if you can't fit it on a line, then it should be a gist
16:24	y3di	gist?
16:24	TimMc	~paste
16:24	clojurebot	paste is http://gist.github.com/
16:25	TimMc	but that's if you're trying to demonstrate something to someone on the channel
16:25	TimMc	y3di: If you want to just find the result, download Leiningen and run "lein repl".
16:26	duck1123	y3di: also tryclj.com
16:27	TimMc	Ooh, that too.
16:27	y3di	right
16:27	y3di	https://gist.github.com/8d4e4bd76669846874c7
16:28	TimMc	$mail alexbaranosky It just occurred to me, a good project for the meetup would have been to write a "try-cljs" website.
16:28	lazybot	Message saved.
16:28	y3di	that works for [1 2 3 2 1] but not for "racecar"
16:28	y3di	anyone knows how I can fix it? I tried to call seq on racecar so that it changes it to a list, but my function still errors out
16:29	hiredman	y3di: your function isn't properly recursive, and (seq [x]) is always true, so your if is badly written
16:30	TimMc	y3di: Technically, it seq provides a sequence over the string, it doesn't convert it.
16:30	y3di	,(if (seq []) true false)
16:30	hiredman	D
16:30	clojurebot	false
16:30	gtrak	whoa, lazybot does messages?
16:30	Raynes	He does a lot of things people don't know about.
16:31	hiredman	I didn't say (seq []) I said (seq [x])
16:31	hiredman	which is what you have in your if
16:31	hiredman	,(booealn (seq [nil]))
16:31	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: booealn in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:31	gtrak	Raynes, I had already decided he was awesome so I stopped exploring
16:31	Raynes	Heh
16:31	hiredman	,(boolean (seq [nil]))
16:31	clojurebot	true
16:31	hiredman	,(boolean (seq [:foo]))
16:31	clojurebot	true
16:31	hiredman	,(boolean (seq [false]))
16:31	clojurebot	true
16:32	hiredman	,(boolean (seq [true]))
16:32	clojurebot	true
16:32	hiredman	etc, etc, etc
16:32	gtrak	$fortune
16:32	lazybot	I have no fortune cookies. Please feed me some!
16:32	y3di	hmm, ok someone earlier said I can use (seq [x]) to check if a list is empty or not
16:32	Raynes	That plugin is going away.
16:32	TimMc	hiredman: I imagine you saying that in the voice of that character from The King and I.
16:32	gtrak	ah, sad
16:33	TimMc	~#3
16:33	clojurebot	3. Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon. -- Alan J. Perlis
16:33	Raynes	There are a bunch of bastardized plugins that could just be replaced with a decent factoid system.
16:33	TimMc	Raynes: ^ that feature is a tiny bit tricky to use over SSH.
16:33	hiredman	y3di: someone was wrong
16:33	hiredman	or you misread what they said
16:33	y3di	yea alright
16:33	Raynes	TimMc: I have no idea what you just said.
16:33	hiredman	I am inclined to believe the latter
16:34	duck1123	hiredman: it was a little of both :(
16:34	gtrak	javabot's system seems simple enough
16:34	TimMc	Raynes: Are you connected over SSH?
16:34	Raynes	To what?
16:34	TimMc	Ah. You are not using a command line IRC client.
16:34	Raynes	God no.
16:35	TimMc	Raynes: <Enter>, [~] is the SSH escape sequence. Typing <Enter> [~] [#] prints a list of connections. :-)
16:35	Raynes	Irssi gives me diarrhea.
16:35	tscheibl	@Raynes: and u don't even use emacs or vi?
16:35	Raynes	tscheibl: I do use Emacs.
16:35	rickmode	Why does (def foo ^{:name "Foo!"} [1 2 3]) work but (def foo ^{:name "Foo!"} (list 1 2 3)) not work?
16:35	duck1123	,(boolean (seq []))
16:35	clojurebot	false
16:36	Raynes	I don't use it in a terminal.
16:36	tscheibl	isn't there e irc plugin for emacs?
16:36	hiredman	rickmode: what does '^' do?
16:36	tscheibl	ah xirc
16:36	duck1123	tscheibl: M-x erc
16:36	technomancy	tscheibl: there are four or five
16:36	technomancy	only two built-in though
16:36	tscheibl	thought so
16:37	Raynes	erc never worked very well for me.
16:38	y3di	so I got rid of the (seq [x]) check and used empty instead but i still have the same problem
16:38	y3di	https://gist.github.com/8d4e4bd76669846874c7
16:38	rickmode	hiredman adds metadata to an object: http://clojure.org/reader
16:38	y3di	it works with the first but not the second
16:38	hiredman	rickmode: what object?
16:39	hiredman	a related question would be, why does ^:foo [1] add the metadata to the vectore, but ^:foo '[1] doesn't
16:40	rickmode	hiredman: in this case the vector or list. (meta foo) returns the metadata map for vector, but not the list
16:40	hiredman	which vector or list? where do they come from?
16:40	tscheibl	y3di: u mena "empty?" ?
16:40	_ulises	y3di: what does (first (seq ["racecar"])) return?
16:40	tscheibl	mean
16:41	_ulises	y3di: hint, line 13 is your problem
16:41	rickmode	I'm creating a def for a list
16:41	_ulises	or more like 11 and 3 too
16:41	hiredman	but there are really two lists there, right?
16:41	rickmode	in this case it's contant (a list of agents i'm using elsewhere)
16:42	hiredman	the list (list 1 2 3) and the list (1 2 3)
16:42	hiredman	which one are you checking for metadata? and which one is available for the reader to attach metadata to?
16:43	y3di	oh wow, ty _ulises
16:43	_ulises	y3di: no worries :)
16:43	rickmode	hiredman: you've lost me. (list 1 2 3) returns the list (1 2 3). (1 2 3) attempt a function call on 1 with params 2 3.
16:44	hiredman	right, but this is lisp right? so (list 1 2 3) is a list too, right?
16:45	hiredman	so you have two lists there, (list 1 2 3) ;; the list the reader creates and (1 2 3) ;; the list the function call results in
16:46	rickmode	I'm assuming with (def a (b c d)), a will be a ref to the result of evaluating (b c d)
16:46	hiredman	in light of the fact there are two lists, which one are you checking for metadata?
16:46	hiredman	correct
16:46	rickmode	I want to add metadata such that (meta a) returns it
16:47	hiredman	so you have a (list 1 2 3), which the compiler sees as a function call and generates a call to the function list with the arguments 1 2 3, the result of which is (1 2 3)
16:47	hiredman	so you have two lists, (list 1 2 3) and (1 2 3), which one are you checking for metadata?
16:48	TimMc	hiredman: May I ask a spoiler-ish question?
16:49	rickmode	the list (1 2 3) is what I want.... so the question is... when does the reader attach the metadata? it's not clear
16:49	hiredman	when can it?
16:50	hiredman	why does ^:foo [1] add the metadata to the vector, but ^:foo '[1] doesn't
16:50	mefesto	,(doc with-meta)
16:50	clojurebot	"([obj m]); Returns an object of the same type and value as obj, with map m as its metadata."
16:50	rickmode	My mental model of Clojure tells me.. after evaluating the expression, before asigning to the Var
16:50	hiredman	the reader is not the evaluator is it?
16:50	rickmode	"Metadata (^) Symbols, Lists, Vector, Sets and Maps can have metadata, which is a map associated with the object. The metadata reader macro first reads the metadata and attaches it to the next form read: ^{:a 1 :b 2} [1 2 3] yields the vector [1 2 3] with a metadata map of {:a 1 :b 2}."
16:51	rickmode	So that a bit misleading
16:51	hiredman	how so?
16:51	y3di	_ulises: so (first (seq ["racecar"])) returns "racecar" which would be an issue, but based on my code, I don't think i ever call (seq ["racecar"]) its only (seq "racecar")
16:51	hiredman	(1 2 3) is not the form that is read
16:51	rickmode	^{:name "hi"} (list "hi") doesn't work
16:51	hiredman	(list 1 2 3) is the form that is read
16:51	y3di	unless im misunderstanding something
16:51	_ulises	y3di: are you sure? your fn takes a parameter x and then you call (seq [x])
16:51	rickmode	but ^{:name "hi"} ["hi"]
16:51	rickmode	does
16:52	hiredman	["hi"] is the form that is read
16:52	rickmode	right
16:52	rickmode	I'm getting what you're saying
16:52	rickmode	however
16:52	hiredman	no, you don't
16:52	y3di	_ulises: yea, but the x that it takes is "racecar"
16:52	y3di	not ["racecar"]
16:52	rickmode	Should be : Metadata (^) Symbols, Lists, Vector, Sets and Maps can have metadata, which is a map associated with the object. The metadata reader macro first reads the metadata and attaches it to the next form read: ^{:a 1 :b 2} [1 2 3] yields the vector [1 2 3] with a metadata map of {:a 1 :b 2}..... But you cannot use ^ with Lists
16:52	_ulises	y3di: yes, so you end up calling (seq ["racecar"])
16:52	hiredman	,(read-string "^{:n 1} (list 2)")
16:52	clojurebot	(list 2)
16:53	hiredman	,(meta (read-string "^{:n 1} (list 2)"))
16:53	clojurebot	{:n 1}
16:53	hiredman	rickmode: that is not true
16:53	dnolen	rickmode: attaches it to next form, not what the next form evaluates to.
16:53	hiredman	,(meta ^{:n 1} (list 2))
16:53	clojurebot	nil
16:53	rickmode	sure... and so ^ won't do anything useful with a list
16:53	TimMc	rickmode: [1 2 3] is a literal vector. (list 1 2 3) is a function call that produces a list.
16:54	TimMc	literals evaluate to themselves.
16:54	rickmode	,(meta {:n 1} [2])
16:54	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$meta>
16:54	rickmode	,(meta ^{:n 1} [2])
16:54	clojurebot	{:n 1}
16:56	TimMc	rickmode: ^ is used for handing metadata to the compiler -- you don't generally get access to that metadata at runtime.
16:56	TimMc	with-meta is the safe way to attach metadata to runtime values
16:57	TimMc	so... it's not really a problem that it is awkward to attach metadata to a list literal.
16:57	rickmode	TimMc: now that makes sense
16:57	rickmode	hold on while I reattaches the bits of my exploded head. Thanks guys.
16:58	TimMc	Just because ^{:n 1} [1 2 3] leaks down to the runtime doesn't mean you should rely on it. :-)
16:59	TimMc	(Homoiconicity makes it easy to confuse the levels.)
17:00	rickmode	TimMc: that "^ is normally used to pass metadata to the compiler; with-meta is idiomatic when added metadata to your own objects" tip could be mentioned on the clojure.org/reader page.
17:00	TimMc	rickmode: Many things could. :-(
17:01	rickmode	TimMc: word... the clojure.org bits and the API docs are genearlly useful if you know what you're doing. They dont' really stand alone.
17:02	TimMc	I have many complaints about the doc. I should really open a ticket...
17:03	rickmode	Heh... If I complain much more I'd feel obligated to get off my butt and participate... :P
17:05	rickmode	TimMc and hiredman: so ya.. I need a better mental model of reader-time vs evaluation-time
17:06	TimMc	So do I!
17:06	TimMc	Clojure also complicates that a bit by doing on-the-fly compilation.
17:07	rickmode	Which is pretty fly
17:08	gfredericks	it's read vs compile vs execute, in my head
17:08	gfredericks	so compile time is when macros get "run"
17:08	rickmode	aren't here really only 2 stages?
17:08	rickmode	at least logically
17:08	gfredericks	I think it's confused because the compiler can be used at runtime
17:08	gtrak	rickmode, you'll notice there's an init class generated for each namespace, that should be helpful to think about
17:09	rickmode	read time and execute time? compiling is somewhat invisible
17:09	gfredericks	e.g. calling eval invokes the compiler I think
17:09	gfredericks	rickmode: I think distinguishing compile from execute helps understand what macros can and can't do
17:09	rickmode	ya - I know if you put non-def forms in a file, those will be evaluated / executed when you load/use/require the file
17:09	gfredericks	people often want to "apply" a macro
17:10	gtrak	if you run eval, it has to create new classes and load them
17:10	gtrak	before it can actually execute the code
17:11	rickmode	so in a sense def are not magically - they are "executed" in the order they appear in the file. And thus you can't refer to something defined later in the file (unlike Java)
17:11	gtrak	when you type (defn ...) in a file, you're telling it to create a class for the function, and the init class for the namespace will bind an instance of that class to the var
17:13	duck1123	that's also the reason you can't have circular dependencies in your namespaces
17:13	gtrak	rickmode, that's the dynamic binding, but there's also a more static way, I'm not clear on the details
17:13	rickmode	you can use declare to get circular refs
17:13	gtrak	things can get inlined
17:14	gtrak	and compiling a ns will compile all the other ns's it depends on
17:15	gtrak	rickmode, so here's a gotcha, create 2 namespaces in two files, create a fn in 1st that refers to a fn in 2nd, change the 2nd and recompile it, the 1st will still refer to the original function
17:16	gtrak	if you want the lookup to be dynamic, you have to use (var or #'
17:16	gtrak	or recompile the 1st namespace too
17:22	TimMc	rickmode, gtrak: It's not defn that creates classes so much as it is fn.
17:23	rickmode	gtrak: I seem to hit redefinition snags doing remote debugging
17:23	gtrak	TimMc, yup
17:24	TimMc	and really fn*
17:24	rickmode	I have my slime connected to a remote machine.. I can use C-c C-k
17:24	gtrak	it's important to superficially know about classloaders when you're talking about this stuff
17:24	rickmode	sorry I can't use C-c C-k
17:27	gtrak	that cadaddadr macro is awesome :-)
17:28	gtrak	amalloy ^
17:28	amalloy	gtrak: not my original idea, of course, but pretty easy to implement
17:28	gtrak	it's some deep magic nonetheless
17:29	gtrak	i never thought about encoding semantics into a string and pulling it out with a regex
17:30	TimMc	gtrak: That's probably a good indicator re: your sanity.
17:30	gtrak	necessary but not sufficient to prove sanity :-)
17:30	technomancy	rickmode: that mostly has to do with filename translation IIRC
17:31	technomancy	easy way out is to use C-c C-r
17:33	amalloy	yes, it's filename issues: such a pain. maybe i'll bind C-c C-l back to slime-eval-buffer
17:33	amalloy	since i never use the reload functionality (and it didn't seem to work when i tried), but remote-swank matters to me
17:34	gtrak	<-crazy: i wonder if you could do an inline bytecode macro?
17:35	gtrak	like C's drop down to assembly
17:38	TimMc	wut
17:41	rickmode	technomany: thanks... anothing thing, if I do a slime-connect I don't get a slime-repl window. If I do a clojure-jack-in to start a local session, I do get the slime-repl. And then after that I can hook up to the remote swank and get a slime-repl. Weirdness.
17:42	technomancy	rickmode: yeah, could be that slime-repl hasn't been boottrapped yet
17:42	technomancy	bootstrapped
17:42	rickmode	technomancy: is there a way to kick it? start it manually? I looked all the slime commands but didn't one to start a repl.
17:43	technomancy	rickmode: you would need to manually install slime-repl if you want to use it without M-x clojure-jack-in
17:43	technomancy	it's a separate marmalade package from slime for some reason
17:48	rickmode	technomany: ack - well i'm Aquamacs so I'm kinda floating in my own world. The new clojure-mode makes life a lot easier though ;)
17:49	technomancy	ah... well yeah; good luck with that =(
17:49	rickmode	technomany: I still need my training wheel! heh
18:12	amalloy	does it make any sense for a single machine to have multiple private ssh keys? or does it always go the other way - create (at most) one private key per client, and tell the server that these are all acceptable keys?
18:18	TimMc	amalloy: I have multiple keypairs on my laptop. One is passwordless and one is not. I use them for servers of varying importance.
18:20	TimMc	amalloy: However, at the last Boston Clojure meetup, what's-his-face distributed a private key for everyone to use to log into a shared terminal on an EC2 machine.
18:21	TimMc	I think of it as group keys vs. user keys.
18:23	amalloy	TimMc: well, atm i'm putting together a simple tutorial on using clojars. i was going to create a new keypair for a new clojars account, but i realized i have no idea how clojars would know which key to use when i try to scp the jar
18:23	ordnungswidrig	in a macro I want to generate a keyword in the current namespace. How would I do?
18:23	ordnungswidrig	(defmacro foo ¢ `(keyword o
18:23	ordnungswidrig	ups
18:24	amalloy	ordnungswidrig: ns
18:24	technomancy	amalloy: it should just try the first thing on the list that `ssh-add -l` gives you
18:24	amalloy	man, i don't know how to use ssh-agent
18:25	TimMc	amalloy: I use a config file to tell SSH which key to use.
18:25	ordnungswidrig	like in (defmacro foo [bar] `(keyword ??? 'bar))
18:25	Raynes	I'm happy that I'm not as paranoid as you.
18:25	ordnungswidrig	amalloy: ns is of type namesapce where keyword expects a string
18:25	amalloy	oh, i see. didn't know you could do that. i already have a bunch of crap in .ssh/config
18:26	TimMc	Host clojars.org\n\tIdentityFile ....
18:26	amalloy	&(-> ns ns-name name) ; clojure is trolling us here...
18:26	lazybot	⇒ "sandbox17152"
18:26	choffstein	Okay -- prepare yourselves -- this may be a very, very stupid question. I've been struggling to fully comprehend moads for a while now. Beside their base properties, I can't see through the fog to their "why". All of a sudden, I have either had a moment of complete enlightenment or complete stupidity. Would it be correct to say that monads give functional languages the ability to control how a function is applied to an value
18:26	choffstein	controlling the value and not the function? For example, if I wanted to create a hopelessly egocentric value (x s.t. (f x) is x for all f), it is fairly trivial in an object oriented language -- but not so trivial in a functional one. It seems to me, though, that this could be done with a monad … where m-result always returns x. Am I crazy?
18:27	TimMc	amalloy: ^ ignore that, look at this: https://gist.github.com/1420671
18:27	technomancy	choffstein: it's been my experience that if you have to ask if you're crazy, then you probably just figured out how monads work
18:28	TimMc	There's a host alias in there as well as an unrelated directive listing all the keyfiles to try for arbitrary hosts.
18:28	choffstein	technomancy: mental breakthroughs always sort of require the gymnastics that make us think we are crazy, huh?
18:28	technomancy	choffstein: it's that or severe head trauma
18:28	ordnungswidrig	amalloy: thanks. weird but works.
18:29	TimMc	Raynes: How am I paranoid? One of my (2) keys doesn't even have a passphrase!
18:30	amalloy	thanks TimMc. have forked gist and will maim it until it does what i wantr
18:30	TimMc	haha
18:31	TimMc	being able to type `ssh timmc@nfsn` is pretty nice.
18:31	amalloy	TimMc: you can configure it so that ssh nfsn just works; is there some reason you're using the timmc@ prefix?
18:32	choffstein	I think I'm going to go with "I'm crazy" until I actually figure this out
18:32	TimMc	Yes, I have different accounts there. It's actually phyzome_brainonfire@nfsn.
18:32	amalloy	choffstein: fwiw i think you're crazy but i don't really understand them either
18:33	choffstein	amalloy: Yes, but your thoughts of me are horribly skewed by my previous questions in this channel that you have had to respond to … so, I don't know if this is an isolated case of crazy or just your general consensus of me
18:34	amalloy	TimMc: back when i was dual-booting windows/linux, i had different usernames on the same computer depending on the mode it booted. i gave them different hostnames to avoid that: ssh linux (akm@server), vs ssh windows (Alan@server)
18:34	amalloy	you might like something similar, or think i'm crazy
18:35	TimMc	I have like 8 logins at NFSN.
18:35	amalloy	okay okay
18:35	dnolen	choffstein: I think it's much harder to see Why Monads unless the language is nearly useless w/o them, aka Haskell.
18:35	TimMc	but good idea otherwise
18:35	amalloy	i don't even know what nfsn is
18:35	amalloy	it just looks like nsfw
18:35	TimMc	Web hosting. "Nearly Free Speech.net"
18:36	dnolen	choffstein: I think Dan Friedman and Adam Foltzer's explanation is one of the best I've seen - https://www.cs.indiana.edu/cgi-pub/c311/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=manymonads.pdf
18:36	choffstein	dnolen: Yeah … i played around in haskell for a while. I should really spend some more time with it if I am ever going to reach monad enlightenment
18:36	choffstein	dnolen: thanks, I'll take a look
18:36	TimMc	amalloy: I really like their pay-for-what-you-use model, and I wish I could get the same deal with a JVM-supporting host.
18:37	dnolen	choffstein: the other thing to realize is that they are about as fun as callback spaghetti unless you have compiler support.
18:37	dnolen	I did see something almost readable in Ruby but it used continuations
18:37	choffstein	dnolen: Yeah -- I haven't seen 'em much in clojure, so I assumed there was an easier way to achieve the same results
18:38	dnolen	choffstein: they aren't so bad in Lisps - you have macros to do the transformations
18:39	dnolen	choffstein: core.logic is basically a hyped up list monad
18:40	amalloy	interesting, TimMc. it looks like they're bandwidth-priced - i don't really see where they charge you for cpu or anything? seems like a weird hack to use them as a compute-farm
18:41	alexbaranosky	is there a simple way to find all fns vars ?
18:41	TimMc	amalloy: Bandwidth, storage, and number of sites. They looked into charging for CPU but I guess CPU is correlated enough with other factors that they just boost the other prices.
18:42	alexbaranosky	meaning tell me all fns that have been def'd
18:42	TimMc	amalloy: I just like that pricing model in general. It incentivizes the provider to have good uptime and encourage the growth of their users' projects.
18:42	amalloy	&(doc ns-map) ; alexbaranosky
18:42	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-map is bad!
18:42	amalloy	okay, i hate you too, lazybot
18:43	technomancy	alexbaranosky: (for [n (all-ns) [_ v] (ns-publics n) :when (and (bound? v) (fn? @v))] @v)
18:43	amalloy	technomancy: probably v, not @v, at the end there
18:44	technomancy	amalloy: yep, misread the question
18:58	TimMc	clojurebot: monads \|are\| a hoax
18:58	clojurebot	Roger.
18:59	cemerick	TimMc: ouch!
18:59	TimMc	I'm convinced that they don't exist, and people just write about them to make other people confused. :-P
19:01	TimMc	Hmm, does clojurebot's factoid module collapse plurals and singulars?
19:15	technomancy	weavejester: any further thoughts on representing migrations?
19:16	weavejester	technomancy: yeah, I think hiredman was correct when he suggested a map of functions would be most appropriate.
19:16	technomancy	maps are probably the most flexible. I think I like the aesthetics of multimethods a bit better just for how they lay out on the page, but that's probably not worth it.
19:16	technomancy	considering that could be addressed with a separate macro if desired
19:16	weavejester	Yeah, the advantage with maps though, is that you can create a map with just an :up and a :down, and add an :id later.
19:17	weavejester	Since migrations need to have some sort of unique id to be stored in the database.
19:17	technomancy	would ordering be based upon the ID?
19:17	weavejester	No; at least not in Ragtime. I order based on creation order.
19:17	weavejester	Which does mean I need a (reset-migrations!) at the top of the namespace file...
19:18	weavejester	But overall it reads better
19:18	weavejester	The ID is so that the migrations can be stored in the database so you know what has been applied.
19:19	weavejester	I thought about adding a SHA1 to the ID based on the content of the migration...
19:19	weavejester	So that if you change the migration definition, it registers the change, but that might be a bit too clever.
19:19	technomancy	functions are too opaque to pull that off well, I think
19:20	weavejester	Yeah. At first I was thinking that there would be no abstraction - the :up and :down would be defined in one place, so one could use a macro to capture the form.
19:20	weavejester	You could still do that really...
19:21	weavejester	i.e. (defmigration foo {:up #(blah) :down #(blah)})
19:21	weavejester	The defmigration macro would be able to pr-str the form and SHA1 hash it.
19:21	technomancy	true
19:21	technomancy	just a question of what you would do with it
19:22	technomancy	if a migration changed, you'd want to reverse the old form before re-running the new up
19:22	technomancy	but by that point it's too late
19:22	weavejester	Well, Ragtime has different strategies of applying migrations.
19:22	technomancy	unless you stored the down action in the DB, which is crazy =)
19:22	weavejester	For production, if there's a conflict (i.e. the database has A B C, but the migration file has A B D), it'll raise an error
19:23	weavejester	But for development, you could say (:down C) (:up D) in such a situation.
19:23	technomancy	isn't C gone by that point?
19:23	weavejester	That assumes you know C, of course, but if you were fiddling around and still had C in memory...
19:24	weavejester	I was kinda thinking that you could write a migration, and then maybe it has a small spelling mistake or something...
19:24	weavejester	If the ID had part of a SHA1 hash, then your spelling correction would be identified, and the old migration could be pulled down, and the new one put up.
19:25	weavejester	I was playing around with the idea of a migration middleware, so migrations would be applied automatically.
19:25	technomancy	yeah, I'm just thinking relying on stuff that's in memory but not on disk seems a bit sketchy
19:25	weavejester	In development only, of course :)
19:26	technomancy	it could be made to work, but it just goes against what you'd expect
19:26	weavejester	True, but if you're working in development, you can always reset the database completely if you can't find the migration.
19:26	weavejester	You'd need some way of adding test data back in though...
19:26	weavejester	Maybe it's all a little too... automated.
19:28	weavejester	But I kinda think that maybe local development databases should be looked upon as being very temporary.
19:28	weavejester	And if you want any test data, you should put that in a file so you can reload it.
19:28	technomancy	yeah, that makes me think it's better to make it easy to nuke and pave rather than try to undo stuff from stuff that's hanging around in-memory
19:29	weavejester	True... But nuke and pave might take too long if it was constantly happening.
19:29	weavejester	I mean, you change a field from "emal" to "email" and suddenly a hundred migrations need to be reapplied from scratch.
19:30	technomancy	true
19:30	weavejester	I dunno - I'd have to see how this works in practise...
19:30	technomancy	but you don't need to hash the content in that case, just reverse the one you notice the typo on
19:31	weavejester	Yeah, but the hash means it happens without you doing anything special.
19:31	weavejester	You save the file, and the migration is magically corrected.
19:31	weavejester	Maybe a little too much magic? But I kinda want to experiment :)
19:31	technomancy	yeah, I think there's room for that
19:32	technomancy	but we should figure out the basics first
19:32	technomancy	the advantage of one-migration-per-file is that you can get lein to spit it out in such a way that the migration reflects the timestamp at which it was created, which basically solves the ordering problem
19:33	weavejester	The ordering problem can also be solved by adding a (reset-migrations!) at the top of the migration file that clears an atom, and each defmigration adds to it.
19:33	technomancy	i we support (def my-migration {:up #(...) :down #(...)}) then we can't offer a way to impose ordering on it; order has to either be a key in the map or supplied when you perform the migration
19:34	weavejester	It would just be the order in which it was evaluated.
19:34	technomancy	sure, that works if you want to introduce a macro
19:35	technomancy	it would be nice to support both
19:35	weavejester	Well, one could easily translate a namespace into a map.
19:36	technomancy	what if rather than storing the migration in an atom, defmigration just expanded to (def my-migration {:up #(...) :down #(...) :order 12}) where :order was determined from an atom getting inc'd?
19:36	technomancy	rather less stateful that way
19:36	weavejester	Hmm...
19:36	jacortinas	that sounds nice, and would allow manual reordering
19:37	technomancy	yeah, you could slap on a manual (def my-last-migration {:order 999999 [...]})
19:37	weavejester	Yeah. Would that solve the reloading problem as well? Or would you still need to reset the atom when the file is reloaded?
19:37	technomancy	I think as long as you didn't care about the value of the :order number, you could reload all you want
19:37	technomancy	it would just keep incrementing, modulo integer overflow =)
19:38	weavejester	... yeah, it would.
19:38	weavejester	That's actually a much better solution.
19:38	weavejester	I really should hang out here more often :)
19:38	technomancy	IRC is the best!
19:39	weavejester	On another note, does anyone know if there's an alternative to autodoc aside from margarilla (or whatever the exact name is :) ?
19:41	weavejester	I'm currently building one, and I don't think I'm reinventing the wheel, but maybe someone else has solve the problem of API doc generation.
19:42	jacortinas	what does "-?>" do?
19:43	technomancy	jacortinas: it's like -> but short-circuits if there's a nil
19:43	weavejester	It's like -> but it short-
19:43	weavejester	Yeah, what he said :)
19:43	jacortinas	ahh ok
19:43	jacortinas	that's awesome
19:50	technomancy	weavejester: getting my privmsg?
19:51	amalloy	heh. margarilla. excellent
19:51	weavejester	technomancy: Sorry, didn't notice
19:56	Raynes	weavejester: There is story, a recent addition.
19:56	Raynes	weavejester: http://jedahu.github.com/story/
19:56	Raynes	I'm a fan of this one.
19:58	weavejester	Raynes: Ah I see. It's not quite what I was looking for though. It's more a literate programming thing than classic API docs ala Javadoc or YARD.
20:06	alexbaranosky	technomancy, amalloy - thanks for ns-related tips... my internet died back when I asked so I hope I didn't miss anything useful
20:07	alexbaranosky	I got the for expression from technomancy and the ns-map from amalloy
20:08	weavejester	Bye all
20:09	amalloy	alexbaranosky: lazybot.org/logs/#clojure
20:09	amalloy	(i don't think you missed anything, but you can find out from there)
20:11	alexbaranosky	thanks
20:21	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Whoa, stuff has been happening in seqs-and-colls!
20:22	TimMc	haha, it's all after midnight last night
20:22	alexbaranosky	TimMc: I made a couple small commits
20:22	alexbaranosky	mostly silly stuff
20:26	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Any idea about how to represent "logical true" (and false) with better icons?
20:27	alexbaranosky	TImMc: my thoughts are along the idea of not thinking in terms of icons, but trying to step back and feel out the page from a UX perspective
20:27	TimMc	I was hoping I'd come up with something better if I slept on it, but the best I can do so far is that idealized power on/off icon: http://static3.depositphotos.com/1000244/205/v/450/dep_2055290-Power-yellow-circle-icon.jpg
20:27	alexbaranosky	I think the visual representation is a matter of UX, and, that could come later
20:28	TimMc	specifically http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/ghoststone/ghoststone1005/ghoststone100500027/7028115-close-up-of-isolated-red-power-on--off-switch.jpg
20:28	TimMc	There needs to be hella more text, too.
20:28	alexbaranosky	Could put a bomb on the ones that blew up, like a Nintendo type of bomb
20:28	TimMc	haha, I like it
20:28	alexbaranosky	and a thumbs down for thefalses
20:28	TimMc	Making a TODO file...
20:29	alexbaranosky	thumbs up for truths
20:29	alexbaranosky	TODO file's a great idea, I was looking for it last night
20:29	TimMc	alexbaranosky: I was talking about it with tmciver today and I think we need to avoid any icons that have "good/bad" connotations.
20:30	alexbaranosky	your reasoning?
20:33	TimMc	Well, I don't want the viewer to see the red X on seq / nil and think "Oh, I can't call (seq nil)"
20:33	TimMc	...which was Rob's first impression.
20:33	TimMc	I think it works OK for the predicates though, e.g. counted? and associative?.
20:35	TimMc	More user-testing is required. :-)
20:35	alexbaranosky	I still wonder if the simplest thing isn't just like "T" with a green background, "F" with a red background, "nil" with a some-color background, and Bomb with a xyz-color background
20:36	alexbaranosky	TimMc: I have Clojure question
20:36	TimMc	shoot
20:36	alexbaranosky	I have a symbol, and want to say that it does not represent any fns that are in scope
20:37	alexbaranosky	I can access stuf like such: (for [n (all-ns) [_ v] (ns-publics n) :when (and (bound? v) (fn? @v))] v)
20:38	tmciver	TimMc: alexbaranosky: thumbs up for truth, thumbs down for false and middle finger for "can't do that!"
20:38	alexbaranosky	but am having some friction going between var and symbol to compare
20:38	alexbaranosky	hehe
20:38	TimMc	tmciver: NICE.
20:39	alexbaranosky	tmciver, its hard to think of pictures for true and false because they're so abstract
20:39	TimMc	Worse, it's logical true and false. :-/
20:39	TimMc	alexbaranosky: And that snippet doesn't work?
20:40	alexbaranosky	what do you all think of a triple quote reader macro for Clojure ?
20:40	amalloy	alexbaranosky: well, all-ns hits all namespaces, not just those that are "in scope"
20:40	tmciver	TimMc: I really think simply printing True and False would be fine too.
20:41	amalloy	if you only want to refer to ones that are in scope, just call (resolve sym) - if you get back nil, it's not in scope
20:42	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Remember that Clojure doesn't have reified environments, so you won't get locals.
20:42	alexbaranosky	I don't want local, so I'm good
20:42	alexbaranosky	:)
20:43	alexbaranosky	however, I am not sure how to compare a symbol with a var
20:43	alexbaranosky	&(var string?)
20:43	lazybot	⇒ #'clojure.core/string?
20:43	TimMc	,(name '#+)
20:43	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: +>
20:43	alexbaranosky	&(str (var string?))
20:43	lazybot	⇒ "#'clojure.core/string?"
20:43	TimMc	haha, whoops
20:44	TimMc	(.sym #'+) -> '+
20:44	alexbaranosky	&(= (str "#'" "string?") (str (var string?)))
20:44	lazybot	⇒ false
20:45	alexbaranosky	TimMc, why is that last one false?
20:45	alexbaranosky	&(= "#'string?" (str (var string?)))
20:45	lazybot	⇒ false
20:45	amalloy	alexbaranosky: i still don't see why you want to compare symbols to vars at all
20:45	alexbaranosky	&(= "string?" (str (var string?)))
20:45	lazybot	⇒ false
20:45	TimMc	&(= "foobarbaz" (str "foo" "barbaz"))
20:45	lazybot	⇒ true
20:45	TimMc	hrmf
20:46	amalloy	&(let [in-scope? (fn [name] (not (resolve name)))] (map in-scope? '[inc dec foo]))
20:46	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
20:46	amalloy	,(let [in-scope? (fn [name] (not (resolve name)))] (map in-scope? '[inc dec foo]))
20:46	clojurebot	(false false true)
20:46	amalloy	oh. heh, got it upside-down, but you get the idea
20:46	alexbaranosky	amalloy, you da man
20:46	alexbaranosky	amalloy, you're a Clojure machine
20:48	alexbaranosky	amalloy, doing the binding map substituions for midje tabular tests will infinitely loop in some spots, because it was thinking of fns used as table data as being table variables
20:49	alexbaranosky	at this point I think I'm just figuring it out for fun, because '?'-prefixed variables might in fact just be more readable than non '?'-prefix vars
20:55	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Mind if I hammer on the deftemplate thingy, or do you have WIP on that?
20:55	alexbaranosky	TimMc, go for it, I have nothing in progress. I gave up on it
20:57	TimMc	Ha, OK. I'll beat my head against it for a bit.
20:59	TimMc	&(counted (seq "foo"))
20:59	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: counted in this context
20:59	TimMc	&(counted? (seq "foo"))
20:59	lazybot	⇒ true
20:59	TimMc	&(counted? (seq [1 2 3]))
20:59	lazybot	⇒ false
20:59	TimMc	welp
21:13	cemerick2	/join #clojure-casual
21:13	cemerick2	good grief
21:15	TimMc	?
21:21	devn	cemerick: is it possible to get fortress?
21:24	Raynes	cemerick: lazybot is in #clojure-casual still?
21:25	Raynes	It's more appropriate to /query lazybot
21:25	Raynes	He responds there the same as here.
21:26	cemerick	Raynes: apparently
21:28	cemerick	devn: sure, why?
21:29	cemerick	(don't be fooled by the calamatous state of java.net)
21:29	cemerick	calamitous*, apparently
21:52	TimMc	Does paredit give me a way to kill the entire next form?
21:52	TimMc	(as opposed to the first "word" in that form)
22:10	devn	cemerick: I was just curious. I've been toying with APL, at this point, why not look at fortress? :)
22:11	devn	TimMc: I am pretty sure it does, but my silly way is to have my point in some whitespace previous to the sexp and then I Mark, M-C-f, C-w
22:11	technomancy	TimMc: C-M-k, but it's stock emacs, not paredit
22:11	devn	d'oh
22:11	cemerick	devn: dude, you're outta control ;-)
22:11	devn	I knew technomancy would chime in
22:11	devn	blasted Phil always besting me in emacs
22:12	TimMc	devn: Yeah, that's what I was doing.
22:12	TimMc	technomancy: Ah, thanks!
22:12	devn	technomancy: yeah, i might avoid carpal tunnel a few thousand keystrokes earlier now
22:12	devn	technomancy: thank you
22:14	devn	technomancy: i heard through the grapevine you heroku guys were working on specifying how your app should be built, any word on that?
22:15	TimMc	$findarg map % [true false 5 nil] [true true false false]
22:15	lazybot	[]
22:31	reiddraper	is __meta the best way to deal with metadata for objects created with deftype?
22:32	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Check it out, result values are in the title text.
22:33	alexbaranosky	TimMc: deployed it?
22:33	technomancy	devn: not sure what you mean by that
22:33	alexbaranosky	sweet, I see it
22:33	technomancy	I'm working on an article about how to set up background workers if that's what you mean
22:34	TimMc	need to commit, tho
22:35	TimMc	OK, done.
22:36	technomancy	devn: oh, you mean http://12factor.net
22:36	technomancy	yeah, that's good stuff. definitely worth reading.
22:37	TimMc	alexbaranosky: Oh, and add your name (and Rob and Tim too) to the README copyright section.
22:37	TimMc	if you don't mind!
22:38	tmciver	TimMc: no need to add me; I didn't do anything!
22:38	tmciver	TimMc: the change you just made isn't deployed yet?
22:43	tmciver	TimMc: Nevermind, got it.
22:44	harto	having a little trouble with interop here - I'm trying to pass nil to an overloaded constructor
22:44	tmciver	TimMc: Looks good.
22:44	harto	e.g. (TreeModelEvent. source ^TreePath nil) doesn't work
22:45	harto	I get "Metadata can only be applied to IMetas" - any ideas?
22:48	harto	OK, it looks like this works:
22:49	harto	(let [dummy nil] (TreeModelEvent. source ^TreePath dummy))
22:49	harto	is that the best way to do it?
22:49	alexbaranosky	harto: funky... no idea the best way
22:50	cemerick	harto: yeah, you can't hint nil
22:51	cemerick	I think I've only ever run into that circumstance (needing to pass nil to an overloaded ctor/method) once before.
22:52	harto	cool
22:52	cemerick	harto: I think I did something like ^TypeHint (or nil) — any expression that returns nil will do.
22:54	harto	ah, I see
22:54	harto	thanks
23:20	hhutch	in clojurescript, if I require [goog.dom.foo :as goog-foo] and i want to do the equivalent of (goog.dom.foo.) using my clojure namespace, how would I do that? (goog-foo.) (new goog-foo) .. (goog-foo/.) actually generates "new goog.dom.foo.()"