#clojure – 2011-11-22

2011-11-22

00:33	boborygmy	?
01:19	callen	is anyone aware what the preferred library or mechanism for event handling/callbacks in Clojure is?
01:20	callen	I've got a dumb loop in my code right now, and I really don't want to go through the pains required to make it non-retarded.
01:20	callen	I found spectator, but it seems specifically wrapped around maps, oddly enough.
01:20	callen	and it seems less like an event library and more of a signals thing for mutation.
01:23	amalloy	lamina? or just functions?
01:24	callen	amalloy: taking a look at lamina. Tbqh, something like twisted would serve my needs really well.
01:25	callen	amalloy: basically I need to keep a socket connection alive, and start firing stuff off based on what I get.
01:25	callen	amalloy: I might make my parsing/processing asnychronous or secondary to the main event loop for performance, but in general, I need to keep the damn socket alive and make certain stuff goes.
01:26	callen	amalloy: twisted happens to be really good at what I described, and given that I don't know Clojure that well yet, I'm trying to force myself to do the project in clj.
01:26	amalloy	if you want networked event-listeners, see also aleph and the millions of message-queue impls like zeromq and rabbit. i don't know anything about any of those, but probably at least one of them is good
01:26	callen	amalloy: I was just going to say that I think Aleph is more appropriate.
01:26	callen	amalloy: rabbitmq and zeromq are totally inappropriate for my use-case, hahaha.
01:27	callen	amalloy: don't recommend either of those to people who don't necessarily know what they want, fyi.
01:52	tolstoy	The thing I really love about leiningen is that if I have a question, I can just read the source and actually understand it.
01:52	tolstoy	I mean, the files are named after the tasks.
01:53	tolstoy	Just had to get that out there.
01:56	diptanuc	tolstoy: SBT is lik a dragon.
01:57	tolstoy	xsbt....
01:58	tolstoy	the old SBT was a bit easier.
02:00	tolstoy	Just about every time I need to write a leiningen plugin, I write it, then look in the sample-project.clj file, and realize I didn't have to. But if I did, it's so easy.
02:01	tolstoy	scottj: Have you actually found which top-level dir to look in over at https://github.com/harrah/xsbt?
02:08	callen	tolstoy: I wish more stuff was written like lein.
02:10	tolstoy	callen: I find a lot of clojure stuff much more understandable than I would have thought.
02:11	tolstoy	callen: For instance, the docs on congomongo are slim and reading the code is not the irritating chore I thought it would be.
02:11	callen	tolstoy: I don't think it has much to do with Clojure actually, more that Clojure attracts smart people
02:11	callen	tolstoy: and smart people write good code.
02:12	callen	tolstoy: I could write some seriously incomprehensible Clojure if you liked.
02:12	callen	tolstoy: I mean, do you really think it's anything other than technomancy_ that is why lein is so nicely organized?
02:12	callen	tolstoy: you do him a disservice by attributing it to Clojure, as nice as clj is.
02:13	tolstoy	I'm sure his example inspires a lot of others.
02:15	tolstoy	callen: Kudos to technomancy, of course, but (as well) I do think that the whole ethos of clojure helps a lot.
02:15	brehaut	“In [OO], everything happens somewhere else.” — Adele Goldberg
02:16	tolstoy	brehaut: OO is like a rainbow when you're a kid. You keep running toward stuff, but....
02:17	callen	I hate following ravioli code.
02:33	ivan`	newbies like me might be interested to know there's now an Anki deck with the language API
04:29	Bahman	Is this code (make-writer index-file [:append true :encoding "UTF-8"]) correct to append to an output writer?
04:30	raek	what is make-writer?
04:31	brehaut	,(use 'clojure.java.io)
04:31	clojurebot	nil
04:31	Bahman	raek: clojure.java.io/make-writer
04:31	brehaut	,(doc make-writer)
04:31	clojurebot	"([x opts]); Creates a BufferedWriter. See also IOFactory docs."
04:31	Bahman	([x opts])
04:31	Bahman	Creates a BufferedWriter. See also IOFactory docs.
04:32	brehaut	raek: i think its used by other higher level c.j.io functions?
04:32	raek	if you want to open a writer to a file in append mode, use (io/writer index-file :append true :encoding "UTF-8")
04:32	brehaut	frinstance writer
04:32	raek	brehaut: as brehaut said, make-writer is an implementation detail of writer
04:33	raek	(inc Bahman)
04:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
04:33	raek	for being explicit about the encoding of the file
04:34	Bahman	raek, brehaut: Thanks. That worked.
04:35	Bahman	How can I figure if I should not use a function, such as in my case 'make-writer'?
04:36	raek	good question... I guess it's hard to know in this case
04:36	raek	writer has more docs than make-writer
04:36	raek	and make-writer is a protocol method
04:37	raek	these can be hints that the function is more low-level
04:37	Bahman	raek: How can you tell make-writer is a protocol method?
04:38	raek	I happened to know that :)
04:38	Bahman	Oh, I see :-) Thank you.
04:39	Raynes	Bahman: There is invisible text prefixed the name that says 'protocol method' that only experienced Clojurians can see.
04:40	Bahman	Alright Shao Lin masters...when I write my own language I'll put invisible text such as no one but myself can see :-D
04:40	Raynes	That's cheating.
07:20	kzar`	Is there a function that I can use to take a sequence and return two sequences, one with every first item, one with every other one. So for example, something like this: (? [1 1 3 4 5 6]) -> [[1 3 5] [1 4 6]]
07:24	clgv	kzar`: ##(let [s [1 1 3 4 5 6]] [(take-nth 2 s) (take-nth 2 (rest s))])
07:24	lazybot	⇒ [(1 3 5) (1 4 6)]
07:25	kzar`	clgv: Oh shit, should have got that one. Thanks
07:25	clgv	kzar`: you'll remember next time I guess ;)
07:26	licenser	whoa up to 353 kilo tokens a second with the clojure scanner :D
07:26	clgv	licenser: what clojure scanner?
07:26	licenser	clgv: for the highlighter
07:26	clgv	which highlighter? ;)
07:27	licenser	mine ;)
07:27	clgv	github-link? ;)
07:28	licenser	clgv: https://github.com/Licenser/clj-highlight
07:28	hoeck	parsing clojure is not that hard, its a lisp at all!
07:28	kzar`	Is there a quicker way to convert a character to integer than (Integer. (str \1)), I find myself doing that a lot
07:29	kzar`	(I've just defined a tiny function anyway, just wondered)
07:29	clgv	&(- (char \1) 49)
07:29	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
07:29	clgv	&(- (int \1) 49)
07:29	lazybot	⇒ 0
07:29	clgv	ok 48^^
07:29	clgv	dont know if thats quicker. It's directly from char to in at least.
07:29	clgv	*int
07:30	kzar`	clgv: or I guess ({\0 0 \1 1 \2 2...} \1)
07:31	licenser	hoeck: I don't talk about hard, I talk about fast
07:31	kzar`	clgv: Think your way's the best except it doesn't check the character represents a number
07:31	clgv	kzar`: thats an option as well. map lookup (potential hashfunction) vs char-conversion + subtraction
07:32	hoeck	licenser: sorry, no offense, I just meant its relatively simple to parse and therefore probably efficient as well
07:33	licenser	hoeck: well the approach is a general one, which makes it a magneitute slower since I can't just use (read …) :P
07:33	hoeck	licenser: I once wanted to write a incremental parser for sql, hoping that I could built a better autocompletion, and I initially though, 'how hard can that be, I once wrote a parser for lisp'
07:34	licenser	hoeck: I know the topic quite well, lisp is incredible simple
07:44	clgv	licenser: customizable syntax highlighting would be great. "predicate => style" pairs :)
07:48	erluko	,(eval (read-string (pr-str '#(123))))
07:48	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
07:51	licenser	clgv: you can do that
07:51	erluko	Having a little trouble reading the printing of a quoted form. Quoting a #() function adds {:line 1} metadata to the body. The 1 is a java.lang.Integer. Reading turns it into a java.lang.Long, which causes a class-cast exception the compiler.
07:51	licenser	instead of style I use a token kind then you can just define styles for the kind
07:51	licenser	that way you can group multiple predicates towards one style
07:59	licenser	hoeck: for the record, the java scanner only get 54 kTokens/s
08:04	clgv	erluko: clojure 1.3?
08:04	erluko	yep
08:05	clgv	erluko: integers are always long in 1.3 - for java interop you have to cast them explicitly to Integer when calling the java method
08:06	erluko	Absolutely. The change doesn't seem to have made it to clojure.lang.Compiler.analyzeSeq()
08:10	erluko	clgv: /* in Compiler.java */ line = (Integer) RT.meta(form).valAt(RT.LINE_KEY);
08:11	erluko	,(map class [4 (int 4) 2.2 (float 2.2)])
08:11	clojurebot	(java.lang.Long java.lang.Long java.lang.Double java.lang.Float)
08:12	erluko	clgv: Note the second term above. That makes it a little harder to work around the explicit cast in the compiler
08:17	clgv	,erluko: the behavior of your map form is expected for the int afaik it converts to int and back again when you put it into the vector
08:17	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: erluko:>
08:17	clgv	oops .
08:18	clgv	,(clojure-version)
08:18	clojurebot	"1.3.0"
08:18	erluko	Ah, of course. I needed to use (Integer.)
08:18	clgv	&(clojure-version)
08:18	lazybot	⇒ "1.3.0"
08:18	clgv	uff no 1.2 bot here anymore
08:19	erluko	Still odd that the compiler insists that when it sees {:line X}, X must be a java.lang.Integer
08:19	erluko	-- in certain contexts
08:20	erluko	clgv: I meant ^{:line X}
08:20	clgv	do java.lang.Thread objects get garbage collected when the run method exits?
08:22	Bahman	It's probably very naive but how can I use 'byte-array'? Every time I try to use it like (byte-array 3 [1 2 3]) exceptions are thrown at my face saying Long cannot be cast to Byte.
08:25	clgv	Bahman: (byte-array 3 (map byte [1 2 3])) works. but it's not nice to have to do the conversion like that, indeed.
08:27	Bahman	clgv: AFAIK on JVM, you can't count on the exact timing of GC. But yes, when the Thread exits if there are no more refs to it, it is marked for recycling on the next GC run.
08:27	Bahman	Thanks clgv.
08:27	clgv	ok. exact timing is not needed. I wasnt sure if threads might be treated special
08:28	licenser	I start to hate clojure-jack in :( for no good reason it starts or stop working with the oddest of errors :.(
08:30	erluko	licenser: does it break after a change to project.clj?
08:30	licenser	erluko: map, it told me now that it does not find lein
08:32	erluko	Can it still be found in a shell? Does 'lein swank' work in the root of your project?
08:32	licenser	perfectly
08:32	licenser
08:32	clgv	licenser: I wouldnt wonder if bash didnt find lein here since it's that foggy here
08:32	licenser	clgv: I even called /bin/bash lein to make sure it works
08:32	licenser	but I wonder why it would work 1s ago and then stops
08:33	clgv	restart^^
08:33	clgv	only emacs I mean ;)
08:33	cemerick	OT: is there any way in the github UI to just fast-forward commits from pull requests instead of creating separate merge commits?
08:33	licenser	clgv: did taht
08:38	licenser	interesting, parsing huge files is faster in a lazy mode, small files are faster in a non lazy mode
08:51	broquaint	Don't think so, cemerick.
08:52	cemerick	broquaint: that's what I thought. Bizarre. Do people not like clean commit histories? :-P
08:52	erluko	clgv: I had a bad lein plugin do that to my setup once
08:53	clgv	erluko: a lein plugin made your bash foggy? :D
08:54	broquaint	Not the github guys at least, cemerick ;)
08:54	erluko	clgv: I think that was the gin. :D
08:54	erluko	licenser: have you tried lein clean?
08:55	licenser	erluko: it just started to work again , I have no clue why
08:55	Bahman	licenser: Have you appended the path to lein to PATH in .bash_profile?
08:55	licenser	Bahman: lein is in my global path
08:56	Bahman	Some X programs only regard variables defined in .bash_profile not .bashrc
08:58	clgv	Bahman: usually .bash_profile is loading .bashrc if it exists ;)
08:58	erluko	clgv: re Integer issue. Turning on print-dup makes (eval (read-string (pr-str '#(123)))) work again
08:59	erluko	w/out dup: (fn* [] ^{:line 1} (123)) w/dup: (fn* [] ^#=(clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap/create {:line #=(java.lang.Integer. "1")}) (123))
08:59	erluko	The magic is in (java.lang.Integer. "1")
09:00	Bahman	clgv: I know...it's sourcing .bashrc as the first line but I have run into this weird problem before. It might be worth a try.
09:00	clgv	oh ok. I always used printdup when experimenting with read and writing clojure forms. so I didnt notice that.
09:23	Borkdude	I am trying out Clojure from the console instead of emacs, to prepare some assignments for students.
09:24	TimMc	cemerick: My main objective is to ensure that every commit leaves the tree in a buildable state where the same or fewer tests fail. I also like to commit features + tests + doc together.
09:24	Borkdude	I was wondering, what is jline supposed to enhance? I see no difference
09:24	TimMc	cemerick: Beyond that, I try to make commits as small in scope as possible, in order to make merges easier.
09:24	cemerick	TimMc: Of course, but if a changeset doesn't require a merge commit at all, why add one?
09:24	TimMc	a merge commit?
09:25	joegallo	Borkdude: ability to hit up and get back the previous line is the primary thing that i noticed
09:25	cemerick	TimMc: Yeah, that was my original gripe re: github pull requests
09:25	cemerick	the web UI produces a merge commit even if one isn't necessary
09:25	Borkdude	joegallo: the normal clojure repl does that already
09:26	fliebel	Any idea how I can tell lein to check the maven repos? It just bombs out immediately.
09:27	TimMc	cemerick: Huh, haven't seen that.
09:27	cemerick	I've never seen a pull request not produce a merge commit.
09:27	joegallo	Borkdude: not for me, it doesn't
09:27	cemerick	Whereas if I do the pull on the command line, I get a clean history.
09:27	joegallo	how are you running it?
09:28	TimMc	cemerick: Ah, I see. I've never done collab using github.
09:28	Borkdude	joegallo: I just downloaded the jar and hit "java -jar clojure-1.3.0.jar"
09:28	joegallo	and i as well
09:29	joegallo	what terminal and shell are you using on what os? is it possible that you're benefitting from an external feature provided by something else?
09:30	joegallo	i'm using iterm2 on osx to ssh into a linux virtual machine
09:30	Borkdude	joegallo: hmm, I now found out it works in Windows but not in OS X and jline makes a difference there
09:31	Borkdude	joegallo: iTerm2 here also on OX
09:31	Borkdude	OSX
09:31	TimMc	cemerick: Aha! I misread your question that started this whole thread. >_<
09:32	Borkdude	is there smth which enhances the repl with paren matching and nice colors?
09:32	TimMc	For some reason I thought it was about rebasing groups of commits.
09:32	cemerick	nah
09:32	cemerick	but I do always rebase my work into one or two commits so as to eliminate extraneous chaff :-)
09:33	Borkdude	cemerick: I know how that works now ;)
09:33	TimMc	I think I was remembering an earlier comment of yours to that effect.
09:36	hugod	cemerick: you probably know this already, but you might find http://notes.envato.com/developers/rebasing-merge-commits-in-git/ interesting
09:41	cemerick	hugod: that's a great post about --rebase
09:56	jweiss	i'm seeing some strange behavior here, is it possible for a lazy seq to "escape" a try/catch in which it's calculated? eg (let [x (try (calc-seq) (catch Exception e e))] (do-other x)) and do-other throws an exception from calc-seq?
09:56	Chousuke	jweiss: yes.
09:56	Chousuke	jweiss: lazy seqs generally do no calculation until you consume items from them
09:57	melipone	how do you write wrapping macros like with-out-writer in duckstreams?
09:57	jweiss	Chousuke: wow really? but when it is calculated, shouldn't it still be done in the context of the try/catch?
09:57	Chousuke	jweiss: no
09:57	jweiss	Chousuke: ok, i was hoping i'd missed something. so what's the proper way to do what i want?
09:57	Chousuke	jweiss: if you consume a value from it outside a try block, you can't catch the exception if the generation throws one
09:58	jweiss	just force the whole seq with doall?
09:58	Chousuke	either that, or wrap the code where the seq is used in a try block
09:59	Chousuke	or try to make it so that it doesn't throw exceptions
09:59	Chousuke	eg. you can catch the exception when the item is generated and just not return anything, thus ending the sequence
10:00	Chousuke	it might not be a good solution for your problem but it is an option :)
10:00	jweiss	Chousuke: ok thanks for the info, i had a hard time believing that was really what was happening, thx for confirming :)
10:01	Chousuke	jweiss: lazy seqs are a bit unintuitive the first time you encounter it; and I guess dynamic scope in general.
10:01	Chousuke	melipone: that question is a bit vague. Have you looked at how with-out-stream is implemented?
10:02	Chousuke	er, out-writer
10:03	Chousuke	clojurebot: def with-out-writer
10:04	Chousuke	hm :(
10:45	chouser	I'd like to use lein's checkouts dir to point to a couple non-lein projects (clojure itself and another with a pom.xml)
10:46	chouser	Should I give up now, or is it possible perhaps by adding stub project.clj's to those projects?
10:52	cemerick	chouser: that's all that's required AFAIK. The child projects' source, compile, and resources paths will be added to the parent's classpath for e.g. REPL interactions, compilation, etc.
10:54	mdeboard	Is anyone here doing high-volume crawling/scraping with Clojure?
10:57	chouser	cemerick: perfect, thanks.
11:04	fliebel_	How long does it usually take from a hudson build to availability in maven central?
11:10	cemerick	fliebel_: can be a number of hours, depending on central's promotion schedule that day, and the phase of the moon
11:10	cemerick	:-P
11:10	cemerick	Outer bounds I've seen are 20 minutes - 24 hours.
11:11	fliebel_	cemerick: I can't see the moon, it's to foggy here.
11:12	cemerick	tea leaves or chicken entrails will do in that case
11:12	fliebel_	oh, we have chickens... looks up what entrails are
11:13	fliebel_	uhm, that's not going to work either. Our chickens are enclosed by fethers. Let's have some tea instead.
11:15	Borkdude	cemerick: I decided to give ccw a spin
11:16	fliebel_	Borkdude: good pun :)
11:16	Borkdude	when I right-click a .clj file and select Run As Clojure Application (preload file) I do get a REPL but it doesn't do anything with my input
11:17	Borkdude	fliebel_ :)
11:17	chouser	cemerick: works perfectly, thanks again.
11:18	cemerick	chouser: thank technomancy :-)
11:18	cemerick	Borkdude: you mean it's not loading the file you selected?
11:18	clgv	Borkdude: what is your file like?
11:18	clgv	Borkdude: CTRL+ALT+S on the file will definitely load its content in the repl
11:19	Borkdude	file is like this: https://gist.github.com/1386029
11:19	cemerick	FWIW, I greatly prefer to start a "project-level" REPL with nothing preloaded, and then I load files in as I like.
11:19	Borkdude	clgv: is S the super key or the capitalized letter s?
11:19	clgv	s
11:19	Borkdude	cemerick: I find that acceptable, but such a repl still doesn't do anything
11:20	clgv	Borkdude: well you will have to call the hello function to see something happening in your repl
11:20	cemerick	Borkdude: what do you mean by "doesn't do anything" — is helloworld/hello not defined when the REPL comes up?
11:20	Borkdude	cemerick: clgv I can just type whatever I want in the repl
11:20	Borkdude	but no evaluation what so ever
11:21	Borkdude	I upgraded btw
11:21	clgv	Borkdude: then your nrepl server probably died
11:21	Borkdude	not a fresh install
11:21	Borkdude	but that should work right?
11:21	cemerick	Borkdude: you hit return and it just adds a linebreak, you mean?
11:21	Borkdude	cemerick: yes
11:21	cemerick	Ctrl+Enter evaluates the REPL input :-)
11:22	clgv	kill that repl view and stop everything on the console view and refresh the project
11:22	Borkdude	ah wtf ;)
11:22	cemerick	(maybe Cmd+Enter on Mac by default, I've long forgotten what the defaults are)
11:22	Borkdude	that's it
11:22	clgv	yeah Enter only evaluates if you are at the end of the input
11:22	Borkdude	they should have put sound to that getting started video ;)
11:22	cemerick	clgv: not even that on the latest builds
11:23	clgv	cemerick: there is a recent update?
11:23	Borkdude	clgv: what do you mean, end of input? you can always type one extra character?
11:23	cemerick	yeah, 0.5.0
11:23	clgv	uuuuh
11:23	cemerick	clgv: handling enter like that was interfering with accepting completion suggestions, etc.
11:23	Borkdude	cemerick: does it do autocomplete or suggest what parameters my hello functions wants?
11:23	clgv	cemerick: yeah that sucked sometimes
11:24	Borkdude	function
11:24	cemerick	Borkdude: Yes, completion is available in the REPL, and parameters and documentation is given in the completion popup.
11:24	Borkdude	cemerick: Cmd+Enter on OS X
11:25	Borkdude	cemerick: where should I see this popup
11:25	Borkdude	and when
11:25	cemerick	If you type (helloworld/ …and then request completion (probably Ctrl+Space by default) you'll get suggestions (or an immediate completion if there's only one match)
11:26	clgv	ah a block comemnt is in as well? great
11:26	cemerick	docs and parameters are not (yet) offered if the function position symbol is already in place
11:26	cemerick	Borkdude: The getting started video is quite out of date AFAIK.
11:27	Borkdude	cemerick: what is a good resource to get started then
11:27	clgv	I would love if CCW would also provide autocompletion without an active repl
11:27	Borkdude	cemerick: ah ctrl+space works, I am so used to tab ;)
11:28	cemerick	Borkdude: you can rebind all of the defaults to your preferred shortcuts in the preferences FYI
11:28	Borkdude	cemerick: yes, ctrl+space is fine, it's just that I'm so used to emacs ;
11:28	Borkdude	)
11:29	cemerick	clgv: There has to be a running environment of some kind to provide any kind of autocompletion. We're hoping to automatically take care of one in the background so you don't have to start a REPL yourself though.
11:29	Borkdude	cemerick: is there some documentation for people to get started?
11:29	clgv	cemerick: yes, thats what I thought how it can be done^^
11:29	Borkdude	cemerick: no outdated stuff
11:30	Borkdude	cemerick: or are these things all I need to know? ;)
11:30	clgv	cemerick: I would also love a short "get potential CCW developers started" guide for CCW. exploring the source on your own was kinda futile for me.
11:33	cemerick	Borkdude: Actually, that screencast is more up to date than I thought. There's http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/Documentation which is in decent shape, and if you choose Help > Help Contents, you should see a Counterclockwise group in the sidebar.
11:33	Borkdude	cemerick: another question (just firing away as usual..) how do I do eval-last-sexp kind of things in cCW?
11:33	cemerick	Beyond that, ping me or the ML, which is well-trafficked.
11:34	cemerick	Borkdude: Ctrl+up / Ctrl+down
11:34	Borkdude	cemerick: say I want to re-evaluate the hello function
11:34	cemerick	or maybe Alt+up / down, I forget the defaults
11:35	Borkdude	alt-up is transpose-line so to see
11:35	duck1123	I believe it's Control up
11:35	duck1123	but it has a conflict on OSX
11:35	Borkdude	ctrl-up just moves the cursor to the sexp above
11:35	Borkdude	cmd-up I mean
11:35	duck1123	That's what I was told anyway when I had the same question
11:35	Borkdude	ctrl-up brings up mission control
11:36	clgv	the java ThreadPoolExecutor with a bounded queue throws an RejectedExecutionException - can I try to convince it to just freeze the submitter until there is space in the queue again?
11:36	cemerick	mission control?
11:36	Borkdude	cemerick: an overview of all open applications
11:36	Borkdude	cemerick: in the current space
11:36	cemerick	ah, right
11:37	duck1123	I think you have to either disable that, or find out if you can rebind it
11:37	cemerick	Borkdude: There's a long-standing issue on OS X where some default keybindings conflict with OS X system stuff. The workaround is to either disable spaces, or rebind the expression history keybindings to something else.
11:37	cemerick	e.g. Preferences > Keys — filter by "REPL"
11:38	tcj	I've got a really basic compojure question: How do I pass multiple values to a hiccup function that renders HTML? I'm using compojure. My handler function needs to pass a sequence of maps and a number. Right now, I have the handler passing the sequence of maps to the hiccup function, but I'm not sure the best way to pass multiple values. I'm thinking of using juxt to solve this. I'm not sure...
11:39	tcj	...if this is even an asnwerable question...
11:39	Borkdude	cemerick: I think I found it in the documentation: cmd-shift-x
11:39	cemerick	Borkdude: oh, you wanted to evaluate the current top-level expression in an editor!
11:40	Borkdude	cemerick: yes
11:40	duck1123	tcj: if you want to render multiple hiccup elements, wrap them in a (list )
11:40	cemerick	I interpreted "eval-last-sexp" as command history recall in the REPL :-)
11:40	Borkdude	cemerick: actually the last sexp, so like (do (first-thing)\| (second-thing)) -> eval-last-sexp should evaluate (first-thing)
11:42	cemerick	Borkdude: No corollary for that in ccw. Cmd-Shift-X will evaluate the current top-level or the selected region.
11:42	Borkdude	cemerick: that's good enough for my students ;)
11:58	clgv	how do I convince clojure/java that it can determine the right constructor. those are up for selection:
11:58	clgv	[ 1] <init> (int,int,long,TimeUnit,BlockingQueue,RejectedExecutionHandler)
11:58	clgv	[ 2] <init> (int,int,long,TimeUnit,BlockingQueue,ThreadFactory)
11:58	clgv	type hint ^RejectedExecutionHandler seems not to work
11:59	clgv	without the last handler it knows exactly what constructor to choose
12:02	clgv	humm using the setter afterwards is a workaround - but it is really strange that typehinting does not work
12:09	jcromartie	Korma: I WANT TO BELIEVE
12:09	kzar`	Can you convert an exception to a string?
12:09	jcromartie	(try (/ 1 0) (catch Exception e (str e)))
12:09	jcromartie	&(try (/ 1 0) (catch Exception e (str e)))
12:09	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
12:09	jcromartie	oh yeah
12:09	jcromartie	...
12:10	TimMc	=> "java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero"
12:15	kzar`	jcromartie: Cool OK, that easy eh?
12:15	kzar`	assumed it was harder!
12:16	jcromartie	str just calls .toString on most objects
12:16	jcromartie	&(map str [1 2 3 '(4 5) {:x :y}])
12:16	lazybot	⇒ ("1" "2" "3" "(4 5)" "{:x :y}")
12:16	jcromartie	&(map str [(Object.) (Exception. "hi")])
12:16	lazybot	⇒ ("java.lang.Object@95bf88" "java.lang.Exception: hi")
12:37	Borkdude	cemerick: does it make sense that I don't get suggestions for (String/ <ctrl-space> ?
12:57	hiredman	the implementation of drop-last is too cute by half
13:01	TimMc	hiredman: Oh man, that's... kind of absurd.
13:02	TimMc	(That's https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2526 for those of you following along at home.)
13:04	ejackson	TimMc: hiredman: sneaky, sneaky.
13:04	TimMc	So, what is that illustrating... commutativity of addition?
13:04	TimMc	associativity?
13:05	ejackson	neither, I don't think.
13:07	TimMc	Taking (first) of a drop-last should then realize roughly the first n elements, yeah?
13:09	TimMc	&(take 5 (drop-last 20 (range)))
13:09	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 2 3 4)
13:09	TimMc	Very cute.
14:18	TimMc	cemerick: Are you saying that you'd prefer the diagram on the right in http://nvie.com/img/2010/01/merge-without-ff.png or am I completely misunderstanding you?
14:19	amalloy	TimMc: for those of us who aren't caught up on the backlog, what did cemerick say (or, a link to where he said it)?
14:24	TimMc	&(range)
14:25	lazybot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
14:25	TimMc	amalloy: just a sec
14:25	TimMc	,(range)
14:25	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
14:25	cemerick	TimMc: generally, yeah. There are circumstances where I prefer to retain the separate "feature" history, but they're rare.
14:26	TimMc	amalloy: GitHub pull requests apparenly create an empty merge commit, which cemerick doesn't like.
14:26	technomancy	but forcing it for single-commit branches is silly
14:26	amalloy	TimMc: accepting a pull request from the github web ui creates a merge commit, anyway
14:27	TimMc	amalloy: right
14:27	cemerick	technomancy: roughly my point
14:27	TimMc	Feature request time! :-D
14:27	cemerick	an extra button wouldn't hurt
14:27	amalloy	i wonder, what is everyone's opinion about rebasing pull requests?
14:27	TimMc	"Please to be adding a ticky-box."
14:27	cemerick	bitching on twitter is my feedback line
14:28	hiredman	rebasing :(
14:28	amalloy	like, i get pull requests based on some snapshot of master from a month ago
14:28	TimMc	A rebase once set my grandmother on fire.
14:28	TimMc	or so I hear
14:28	amalloy	and i don't want a stupid merge there, so i often rebase them. but then the submitter's commits aren't actually in my tree, just another version of their commits. so they have to junk em and fetch master again
14:29	amalloy	ideally submitters would rebase it themselves, but in practice not everyone knows how
14:29	hiredman	joegallo has opinions on rebasing
14:29	joegallo	rebase ALL THE THINGS!
14:29	cemerick	I like having only one commit to represent _all history_
14:30	Raynes	I wish I cared about the state of my git repos as much as you people.
14:30	Raynes	I bascially just execute different git commands until things look okay.
14:30	TimMc	I demand that my repo history look like a geodesic.
14:30	TimMc	only triangles
14:31	TimMc	Raynes: Those two are not mutually exclusive. :-(
14:32	technomancy	,(= #"" #"")
14:32	clojurebot	false
14:32	amalloy	haha awesome
14:32	joegallo	my typically work flow ends up being something like: branch from master, make a bunch of commits (rebasing onto master as i go), and when i'm finally finished i reset (soft!) back to master and then commit individual bits and pieces of the final giant delta with nice little commits
14:32	TimMc	technomancy: Perhaps because Pattern can represent non-regular languages? :-)
14:33	drewr	joegallo: why the soft reset? why not just fix them as you rebase?
14:33	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, I rebase pull requests all the time; I try to get contributors to use topic branches
14:34	amalloy	drewr: at the end he can craft a patch series with full knowledge of the diff and group things "logically" instead of temporally
14:34	amalloy	not really my style, but i like that git lets him do that without bothering me
14:34	hiredman	"patch series" what is this mercurial?
14:35	joegallo	drewr: i dunno, sometimes it just seems easier to redo the commits from nothing but a ball of unchecked in changes -- particularly if i have something is one commit already and i want it to become two or three
14:35	drewr	amalloy: yeah, I just do that with interactive rebasing as I go
14:36	drewr	joegallo: I like to retain some semblance of the thought-progression
14:36	joegallo	i find that interactive rebasing is great for reordering and squashing, but bad for splitting (but that's probably just my own ignorance, and in fact the tool is amazing for that, also)
14:36	TimMc	joegallo: But then you lose all the archaeological value of your commit history!
14:36	drewr	TimMc++
14:36	joegallo	just the crap
14:36	technomancy	TimMc: but you get to appear smarter than you really were!
14:36	joegallo	i lose the crap
14:37	TimMc	joegallo: and more importantly, that makes it easy to have broken-build commits on master.
14:37	joegallo	yes, you have to be really careful to avoid those
14:37	pjstadig	you guys are all insane
14:37	joegallo	if those are even something you try to avoid
14:37	drewr	joegallo: you're too busy shining your perfect little merge commits
14:37	joegallo	each one is a precious pearl, drewr
14:37	joegallo	a unique beatiful snowflake, with it's very own sha1
14:37	joegallo	ugh, its
14:38	amalloy	joegallo: rebase -i actually is pretty good for splitting too, though i don't often do that
14:38	joegallo	yeah, i love the -i, how do you make it do splits nicely?
14:38	joegallo	s/pick/edit/?
14:38	amalloy	if you mark a commit as "edit", you can perform multiple commits before --continue
14:39	joegallo	but doesn't it drop you into a clean working directory?
14:39	joegallo	do you reset the commit off HEAD to split it?
14:39	amalloy	joegallo: eh. git reset HEAD^
14:39	joegallo	bingo, okay.
14:39	amalloy	or HEAD, or whatever. one of those
14:40	joegallo	okay, that's perfectly logical. i sortof imagined you could make that work, but never bothered to try it.
14:40	joegallo	thanks!
14:42	triyo	Is there a way to specify in leiningen libraries (jars) to be included that are not in any repo?
14:42	TimMc	triyo: You can install them in your local Maven repo.
14:43	TimMc	There's some "install" command.
14:43	TimMc	for mvn, not lein, I think
14:44	amalloy	triyo: yes, but technomancy wishes you wouldn't do that
14:44	TimMc	Raynes: Merge conflicts are where I start flailing wildly until things work.
14:45	triyo	amalloy: ok so whats the way to approach this when you get 3rd party jars you have no control over?
14:45	triyo	They not in any maven repo, etc.
14:46	joegallo	which particular library?
14:47	drewr	joegallo: by rebase above I was talking about rebase -i (I do with magit which is much nicer)
14:47	technomancy	triyo: report a bug with the library; it's a pretty serious failing on their part
14:47	joegallo	i really should learn to use that well, drewr
14:47	technomancy	while you're waiting for the bug to be fixed you can use the lein-localrepo plugin or set up your own private archiva/nexus server
14:48	triyo	technomancy: I see what you mean
14:49	TimMc	Of course, at work I use git-svn, so it all gets linearized anyway -- and I can't even do branches safely.
14:50	amalloy	TimMc: you can merge with svn. if you've ever merged with cvs, svn feels like a breath of fresh air
14:50	amalloy	git is a thousand times easier, of course
14:51	TimMc	amalloy: git-svn is a special case -- you're restricted in what features you can use from either system.
14:51	TimMc	And I would contend that git is more awesome, but more complicated.
14:51	amalloy	doing simple things with git is certainly more complicated than doing them with svn
14:52	TimMc	right
14:53	joegallo	s/complicated/awesome/ :)
14:53	R4p70r	Git just has better command line tools. I love how you get a pager for default and how much options you have. SVN has some nice UI though.
14:54	R4p70r	*how many options
14:54	amalloy	R4p70r: the command line is a UI. unclear what you mean
14:54	R4p70r	GUI sorry
14:55	Raynes	We should all use bzr.
14:55	R4p70r	I've tried some git GUIs but I just don't get them. Would be nice to have something like "rebase --interactive" where you could drag commits to reorder them or something.
14:56	amalloy	R4p70r: so, you want a text editor that lets you use a mouse? those are pretty common
14:56	amalloy	and rebase --interactive does exactly that; i'm not sure whether you realized that or were wishing for it
15:01	R4p70r	A text editor isn’t the kind of graphical UI I’m hoping for. It’s been a while since I looked at what was available. Maybe there are more interesting options now.
15:01	TimMc	"git topiary"
15:03	davidd_	we have an svn project at work and my coworker asked me how to rebase in svn
15:03	davidd_	lol
15:05	R4p70r	TimMc, What is that?
15:06	TimMc	R4p70r: It's a term I just came up with to describe obsessive git history sculpting.
15:11	R4p70r	TimMc, Well Guilty as charged
15:13	gfredericks	TimMc: I spend way more time sculpting my git history than I do taking advantage of my sculpted git history
15:14	gfredericks	$findfn nil ()
15:14	lazybot	[clojure.core/distinct clojure.core/lazy-cat clojure.core/sequence clojure.core/vec clojure.core/concat clojure.core/seque clojure.core/drop-last clojure.core/reverse clojure.core/cycle clojure.core/rest clojure.core/lazy-seq clojure.core/flatten clojure.core/sort]
15:16	mebaran151	what's the most recent guide for setting up emacs 24 on windows with slime; something broke my current setup and I've decided to redo it from scratch
15:27	raek	mebaran151: https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode and https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
15:27	raek	mebaran151: clojure-mode is the only thing you need to install in emacs if you use the "jack in" approach
15:45	jcromartie	what's the idiomatic way to handle resources (like input/output streams)
15:45	jcromartie	a la C#'s using
15:46	raek	with-open
15:46	raek	the same as calling .close in a finally block
15:46	jcromartie	right, thanks
15:47	duck1123	take a look at clojure.java.io for some other helpers if you're using io streams
15:48	jcromartie	yeah, I'm using those
15:49	jcromartie	WOAH File/pathSeparator is not to be trusted!
15:50	jcromartie	jeez, how wrong can Java be?
15:50	jcromartie	it uses a colon on Mac OS X
15:50	jcromartie	old school
15:51	TimMc	What is it supposed to be on Mac?
15:51	jcromartie	a slash
15:51	darrint	Is 4clojure.com working for anyone else right now? All my solutions are answered with "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"
15:52	raek	jcromartie: what do you get if you use (clojure.java.io/file "foo" "bar")? "foo/bar"?
15:52	duck1123	jcromartie: The system-dependent path-separator character. This field is initialized to contain the first character of the value of the system property path.separator. This character is used to separate filenames in a sequence of files given as a path list. On UNIX systems, this character is ':'; on Microsoft Windows systems it is ';'
15:52	TimMc	jcromartie: No, this is for separating paths, not path components.
15:52	amalloy	darrint: should be fixed now
15:52	amalloy	we're having a bumpy deploy cycle :P
15:52	raek	ah.
15:52	TimMc	,File/separatorChar
15:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: File, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:52	TimMc	,java.io.File/separatorChar
15:52	clojurebot	\/
15:52	TimMc	,java.io.File/pathSeparatorChar
15:52	clojurebot	\:
15:53	jcromartie	ohderp
15:53	jcromartie	thanks for the smackdown
15:53	TimMc	heh
15:53	jcromartie	I thought it was stuck in OS 9 days
15:54	raek	jcromartie: the Java default encoding on OS X is still Mac Roman, though :( (and OS X acually uses UTF-8)
15:54	jcromartie	yes
15:56	mebaran151	I think those are installed, but run-lisp doesn't work
15:56	raek	run-lisp?
15:58	darrint	stupid browser
15:58	mebaran151	run-lisp in the clojure mode guidelines says it will start a quick repl
15:58	darrint	amalloy: Thanks. Thought I had lost my mind.
15:58	mebaran151	failed for me :(
15:59	mebaran151	also slime-connect throws an error about an unbound slime-clj
15:59	raek	mebaran151: uninstall the slime-clj package. it's another implementation of slime that causes conflicts
16:00	raek	slime-clj + swank-clj are alternative implementations of the more common slime and swank-clojure
16:01	raek	(they have also been renamed, but they are still available under their old names)
16:03	mebaran151	thanks raek, now everything works; I had to delete slime-fuzzy and slime-clj
16:03	mebaran151	I still have slime and slime-repl installed; is that optimal?
16:04	raek	you don't need to have those installed if you use clojure-jack-in
16:04	mebaran151	oh I sometimes use slime-connect
16:05	raek	since clojure-jack-in loads a slime.el file (that has a suitable version) from swank
16:05	raek	if it doesn't cause problems, then keep it :)
16:05	raek	slime-connect is useful too
16:13	mebaran151	clojure-jack-in fails on Windows still
16:14	wiseen	if I have (defmacro foo[bar] '(let [x ~bar] ...)) why does the macro result expand x to namespace variable, eg. (foo apple) => (let [foobar/x apple] ...)
16:14	wiseen	assuming I call foo from a different namespace
16:14	mebaran151	how do I get the autodoc back working in emacs with the new clojure mode?
16:14	raek	wiseen: you should use x# in the let
16:15	hiredman	wiseen: you are using ` not '
16:15	wiseen	hiredman, yeah `
16:15	hiredman	wiseen: but you should be using `, so that is ok, just the example code you pasted does not match what you really have
16:15	Bronsa	wiseen: ~'x
16:16	raek	Bronsa: that will result in symbol capture
16:16	hiredman	in the future being precise about this kind of thing when asking for help will serve you well
16:16	mebaran151	strike that; just had to start slime :)
16:16	Bronsa	raek: right
16:16	wiseen	raek, is # some magic ?
16:17	wiseen	like ` is for (quote)
16:17	raek	wiseen: in most cases you want the symbols that are emittet by your macros to either be qualified with a namespace or be autogensymed
16:17	brehaut	' is for (quote …) ` is quasiquote
16:17	raek	wiseen: yes, the # suffix is special syntax-quote syntax
16:18	raek	all occurances of the same x# in the syntax-quoted expression will become a symbol starting with "x" but with a unique suffix
16:18	raek	,`(x# x#)
16:18	clojurebot	(x__27__auto__ x__27__auto__)
16:18	brehaut	,(read-string "['(quoted a b c) `(quasiquoted a b c)]") ; wiseen ` and ' are different
16:18	clojurebot	[(quote (quoted a b c)) (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/quasiquoted)) (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/a)) (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/b)) (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/c))))]
16:19	hiredman	brehaut: syntax quote
16:19	Raynes	&`((gemsym) (gemsym))
16:19	lazybot	⇒ ((clojure.core/gemsym) (clojure.core/gemsym))
16:19	Raynes	Duh.
16:19	brehaut	hiredman: crap. thanks
16:19	wiseen	brehaut, oh I see, tnx
16:20	raek	wiseen: if you take a piece of code from the macro caller and wrap that in a (let [x ...] ...), you can accidentally capture the x symbol (and break the user code, if it happens to use that symbol name)
16:20	jcromartie	hm
16:20	jcromartie	I can't get DigestOutputStream to work here
16:20	brehaut	i dont know why ive been calling syntax-quote quasiquite. is that some older lispism?
16:20	jcromartie	using clojure.java.io's copy
16:21	jcromartie	the copy works fine
16:21	raek	wiseen: so clojure makes it simple to get unique names that won't conflict with the user code
16:21	amalloy	brehaut: yes
16:22	amalloy	i think we call it syntax-quote because it does the namespace prefixing, which traditional quasiquiting doesn't do
16:22	jcromartie	but the digest is of null data
16:22	jcromartie	i.e. openssl sha1 /dev/null
16:22	brehaut	amalloy: thanks
16:22	mebaran151	how do I get the locals debugger back working in Slime by the way?
16:25	jcromartie	can someone look at this real quick? https://gist.github.com/dda2e42a45226972aee5
16:25	jcromartie	using clojure.java.io
16:25	mebaran151	now just to get color-theme working and I'll be set
16:25	jcromartie	and DigestOutputStream to compute the SHA-1 of the file on the way out
16:26	amalloy	jcromartie: you're not writing to the digest-stream at all?
16:27	wiseen	raek, got it to work, tnx !
16:27	joegallo	amalloy: right, he's bypassing the digest-stream
16:27	amalloy	you need to copy in to digest-stream, not to out
16:27	jcromartie	ah ha
16:27	jcromartie	derp
16:27	jcromartie	I have even done this before!
16:27	jcromartie	thanks
16:28	jcromartie	ta-da
16:59	tolstoy	in lein 1.6.2, "lein uberjar my-app.main" gets me this error: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: clean$clean
16:59	tolstoy	the source suggests that supplying a main is legit.
17:00	technomancy	tolstoy: can you paste a stack trace?
17:00	bhenry	if lein compile fails how can i see the "12 more" lines of the stack trace?
17:00	tolstoy	What's the preferred paste bot here?
17:00	bhenry	gist
17:01	tolstoy	ok
17:01	technomancy	bhenry: you could try clj-stacktrace
17:02	amalloy	bhenry: you don't need the "12 more" - it only trims subsections which are already present in the trace
17:02	bhenry	none of the current lines are part of my project
17:02	amalloy	yeah, compiler errors don't happen in your code; they happen in the compiler, which is reading your code
17:02	bhenry	ah. i want to know what's wrong with my code that won't compile
17:03	joegallo	gist the entire stacktrace, and i bet you can get a pretty helpful answer
17:03	amalloy	the stacktrace from the compiler is a good start. usually one of the exceptions has a message indicating which line of your code is at issue
17:03	tolstoy	technomancy: regarding lein uberjar: git://gist.github.com/1387132.git
17:03	tolstoy	technomancy: regarding lein uberjar: https://gist.github.com/1387132
17:04	tolstoy	(Sorry.)
17:04	technomancy	tolstoy: looks like you've got a hook that is screwing things up
17:04	tolstoy	technomancy: Just noticed that. Hm. I'll check it out.
17:04	bhenry	https://gist.github.com/85463179180fcbc9cbd8
17:07	joegallo	bhenry: you are calling something that expects a symbol, but you're giving it a string. shot in the dark -- check the syntax of your namespace declaration.
17:07	amalloy	agreed that it looks like a bad ns decl
17:07	amalloy	but hard to be sure
17:07	bhenry	joegallo: does the stacktrace indicate that it's happening when compiling floyd.server?
17:08	hiredman	joegallo: have you looked at bytescript at all?
17:09	amalloy	bhenry: i think when compiling one of the files that floyd.server depends on?
17:09	hiredman	joegallo: apropos your interest in asm
17:10	pjstadig	hiredman: you mean bitescript?
17:10	joegallo	bhenry: yes, that, or a depency of it (but some that must not be a dependency of floyd.version)
17:10	pjstadig	https://github.com/headius/bitescript
17:12	joegallo	hiredman: i have not, but it is pretty
17:12	joegallo	man is it pretty
17:12	jcromartie	does anybody else read "prn-str" as "porn star">
17:12	jcromartie	?
17:12	joegallo	always
17:12	brehaut	never
17:12	bhenry	amalloy: joegallo: well i don't think it's a namespace dec because i checked all the ones that changed between the last successful compile and my latest push
17:13	brehaut	jcromartie: but not im not going to be able to unsee it
17:13	joegallo	bhenry: is this open source code? why not just push the problem to a branch and send us a link?
17:13	bhenry	it's not open
17:13	bhenry	: /
17:14	bhenry	but my last push only changes files that don't have anything to do with floyd.server. they are new files independent of the rest of the app. i'm going to see what happens if i remove them, but they shouldn't be part of lein compile.
17:15	joegallo	well, it could be any one of the transitive dependencies of floyd.server
17:17	bhenry	haha i think i figured it out. i added :main to project.clj so i could start the server with lein run but for some reason it used to work with :main "floyd.server" and now wants floyd.server i guess.
17:17	technomancy	bhenry: I don't think strings for :main has ever worked
17:19	bhenry	by some magical force i've been using lein run for the last week
17:19	technomancy	oh... interesting. it may work for run, but not for compile.
17:20	bhenry	gotcha
17:21	jodaro	woop: Clojure in Action just arrived
17:22	jamiltron	I keep getting UPS stickers on my door saying they missed me and I have to pick mine up :(
17:22	jodaro	there will be some clojure in action tonight!
17:22	jamiltron	But I'm super excited for it.
17:25	jodaro	yeah me too
17:37	devn	I peeked at a friend's copy of Clojure in Action. It looks good.
17:37	justicefries	i have the MEAP, haven't opened it yet.
17:38	justicefries	oh I guessI have the full version now.
17:41	kephale	is there a way to just use the integer bitops?
17:43	justicefries	anybody using a majority of Clojure in production?
17:44	Raynes	Lots of people.
17:44	Raynes	http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Clojure+Success+Stories are some public examples.
17:45	justicefries	ah ha. I'm working on getting it going in production.
17:45	brehaut	,(apropos 'bit) ; kephale
17:45	clojurebot	(bit-or bit-set bit-xor bit-flip bit-and ...)
17:46	hiredman	justicefries: yes
17:46	kephale	brehaut: yes but ##(type (bit-shift-left (int 16) (int 7)))
17:46	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Long
17:47	brehaut	kephale: ah right, so you mean primative bit ops?
17:47	kephale	brehaut: exactly
17:47	brehaut	in that case, i have no idea sorry
17:48	amalloy	kephale: that doesn't necessarily show that you're not using primitive ints
17:48	kephale	yeah, but digs up an example
17:49	amalloy	yeah. clojure.lang.Numbers/shiftLeftInt takes two ints and returns an nit
17:49	amalloy	*int
17:49	brehaut	kephale: are you on 1.2 or 1.3 ?
17:50	kephale	amalloy: ♥, i'll try that and the example being ##(bit-shift-left 0xFF 24)
17:50	lazybot	⇒ 4278190080
17:50	kephale	brehaut: 1.3
17:51	Raynes	amalloy: Oh how I wish it returned a nit.
17:51	amalloy	kephale: yeah, i think it actually does box them up as a long first
17:52	amalloy	you can call (clojure.lang.Numbers/shiftLeftInt (int x) (int y)), which should work
17:53	amalloy	&(clojure.lang.Numbers/shiftLeft (int 0x7ffffff) 1)
17:53	lazybot	⇒ 268435454
17:54	amalloy	&(clojure.lang.Numbers/shiftLeft (int 0x7fffffff) 1)
17:54	lazybot	⇒ 4294967294
17:54	amalloy	hmph. why it isn't overflowing i'm not sure
17:54	brehaut	kephale: btw, https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3047-3058 i dont think type does what you think it does
17:55	kephale	brehaut: mmm probably a time to be using class indeed
17:56	brehaut	kephale: well even class wont tell you if somethings primative i think?
17:56	amalloy	indeed, which is what i meant by "that doesn't necessarily show that you're not using primitive ints"
17:57	brehaut	i dont think there is a way on the jvm to even write a 'primative?' equivalent if you dont have static types?
17:57	amalloy	technomancy: find a funny comic with a monkey in it so brehaut will realize "primative" is about primates
17:57	kephale	lol
17:58	kephale	amalloy: hrm, clojure.lang.Numbers doesn't seem to have a bit-or for integers : X
17:58	brehaut	fine. i cant speel
17:58	amalloy	kephale: you have an allergy to objects or something?
17:58	technomancy	http://achewood.com/index.php?date=10262001 best I could do on short notice, sorry
17:58	amalloy	just box em up in Integers
17:59	brehaut	technomancy: umm. wow.
17:59	amalloy	technomancy: looks like you got it to stick in his memory. that's a win
18:00	kephale	amalloy: ok, i'll do that, but i am working on large sets of images
18:00	kephale	amalloy: thank you
18:06	choffstein	Hey all. I just updated one of my projects from 1.2 to 1.3 and am getting a strange error with clojure-csv. Specifically, "Can't dynamically bind non-dynamic var: clojure-csv.core/strict". Any thoughts, generically, on this type of issue?
18:06	Raynes	That means clojure-csv has dynamic vars that aren't explicitly declared dynamic.
18:06	Raynes	It'll need to be updated if it isn't already.
18:07	Raynes	choffstein: 1.3.2 uses 1.3-beta1, so it should work.
18:07	Raynes	(1.3.2 of clojure-csv, I mean).
18:08	Raynes	dsantiago: Update those deps, boy.
18:09	hiredman	choffstein: vars are not dynamic by default anymore
18:09	Raynes	God I wish he would unignore me.
18:09	choffstein	hmmm, I am using 1.3.2...
18:09	hiredman	clojure-csv needs to mark that var as dynamic if that is the intent
18:09	hiredman	sure, since 1.3
18:09	dsantiago	It does mark it dynamic.
18:09	Raynes	https://github.com/davidsantiago/clojure-csv/blob/master/src/clojure_csv/core.clj#L33 is marked dynamic.
18:10	hiredman	dsantiago: most likely not with the version he is using
18:10	dsantiago	I missed the fact that it depends on 1.3.0-beta1, I can update that in a few.
18:10	Raynes	dsantiago: Doesn't really matter.
18:10	Raynes	The top-level dep is preferred.
18:10	dsantiago	I wouldn't think it would, but it seems to be causing him a problem..
18:10	choffstein	dsantiago: a million things could be causing my issue ;)
18:10	choffstein	don't assume its with you
18:10	dsantiago	Oh, I see, it looks like he is using an older version of clojure-csv.
18:11	dsantiago	You need at least clojure-csv to work with clojure 1.3+.
18:11	dsantiago	Er, clojure-csv 1.3.0
18:11	hiredman	that would be my guess, or hasn't fetch deps or something
18:11	choffstein	I am using clojure-csv 1.3.2
18:11	hiredman	is that the jar that is in your ~/lib/ ?
18:12	amalloy	~/lib?
18:12	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
18:12	hiredman	./lib
18:13	choffstein	clojure-csv-1.3.2.jar
18:13	hiredman	any other clojure-csv jars there?
18:14	choffstein	Nope.
18:14	dsantiago	I'm baffled.
18:14	choffstein	Me too.
18:14	hiredman	choffstein: have you cleaned out ./classes since you upgraded clojure-csv?
18:14	Raynes	'lein clean' is known to cure cancer.
18:14	choffstein	hiredman …
18:15	choffstein	stupid … stupid … stupid
18:15	hiredman	are you aot compiling?
18:15	hiredman	(if so why?)
18:15	choffstein	annnddddd that fixed it
18:16	hiredman	that means you are aot compiling
18:16	dsantiago	Glad that's fixed.
18:17	hiredman	you may want to look into setting :clean-non-project-classes to true in your project.clj
18:18	technomancy	the latest lein will automatically clean when you pull in new deps
18:20	R4p70r	TimMc, amalloy, or anyone interested: I did a quick mockup of a git graphical UI I might like http://twitpic.com/7i1vl6 Do you know anything like it or have any thoughts?
18:21	amalloy	it seems pretty pointless to me. but you can try gitk and/or gitgui
18:22	hiredman	magit
18:22	R4p70r	hiredman, Thanks I'll take a look.
18:23	R4p70r	amalloy, How is it pointless? When I was working with SVN on windows I used to go back and forth between the Tortoise UI and command line a lot.
18:26	R4p70r	Granted the Windows command line is awful. no patch or find or whatever. I had a bunch of unix tools installed.
18:26	hiredman	there is a solution to that
18:26	hiredman	why in the world are you developing on windows?
18:28	amalloy	R4p70r: all a gui will do is make you fiddle with the mouse to move things around instead of using muscle memory to move things around in a text editor with the keyboard
18:32	amalloy	(or, more often, typing out quick commands on the cli vs clicking through a couple levels of menu)
18:32	R4p70r	I mostly used Windows for work... As for gui I someting use it on Linux as well "xdg-open ." to see thumbnails of image files in nautilus or something. Not anywhere as often as on Windows/OS X though
18:33	R4p70r	You can have keyboard friendly GUIs though
18:33	R4p70r	a/somting use/sometimes use"
18:38	amalloy	you're free to disagree, and to implement that gui if you're so inclined. you asked for thoughts, and my thought is: most of the git community would rather use the cli even with a pretty nice gui
18:40	R4p70r	Okay. Thanks for your feedback
18:41	tolstoy	There are some pretty nice GUIs out there for git, for those inclined.
18:41	tolstoy	http://www.git-tower.com/
18:42	tolstoy	Windows one: http://www.syntevo.com/smartgit/index.html
18:46	alex_baranosky	tolstoy: tower looks really nice, but I find myself asking why I would need it
18:47	tolstoy	alex_baranosky: Same here. The only reason I can think of is something that helps you visualize a complicated history. Which is something I don't need.
18:48	amalloy	tolstoy: actually github does a fantastic job of that. it's the main (only?) gui tool i use for git
18:48	technomancy	amalloy: you don't use magit?
18:48	amalloy	no
18:48	tolstoy	amalloy: Well, not everyone's on github, of course. ;(
18:49	tolstoy	amalloy: But yeah.
18:49	alex_baranosky	I just use gitk if I want to visualize the history. It's always been enough for me
18:50	technomancy	amalloy: it will change your life
18:50	Raynes	tolstoy: They should be.
18:50	Raynes	We shouldn't considered them equals until they are.
18:51	dakrone	ugh, the worst part of releasing in writing a message to the clojure group about it
18:52	dakrone	*is
18:52	technomancy	dakrone: the hoe tool for ruby actually automates release messages
18:53	dakrone	technomancy: when can I expect that in lein? ;)
18:53	technomancy	dakrone: go for it. =)
18:54	R4p70r	amalloy, The weird thing about github is that you can’t use it until the changed are pushed there.
18:54	R4p70r	tolstoy, I'll have to look into these as well
18:56	R4p70r	I can't type
18:56	hiredman	cemerick: why not sexps for nrepl?
18:57	amalloy	hiredman: harder to write parsers for every client
18:57	hiredman	amalloy: evidence?
18:57	hiredman	is there a language someone hasn't written a lisp reader in?
18:57	hiredman	is it any harder then writing a bencoding or netstrings decoder?
18:58	amalloy	hiredman: when ninjudd was poking at this on the flight from the conj, the bash netstring decoder is like two lines
18:58	hiredman	scala seems to use sexps just fine for ensime
18:58	hiredman	amalloy: ok
18:58	hiredman	do we care about clients written in bash?
18:59	amalloy	i got the impression that we do, but i'm not the expert here
18:59	hiredman	if you want such a thing use a socket repl
18:59	hiredman	nrepl is for tools, right? are our tools going to be written in bash?
18:59	ninjudd	hiredman: yes. all of them
19:00	ninjudd	you didn't hear?
19:00	hiredman	I bet you could read sexps in bash if you really wanted to
19:00	ninjudd	sure, wouldn't be that hard
19:00	hiredman	I mean, it just seems like nrepl is bending over backwords to avoid signs of "favoritism" or something
19:01	hiredman	I am not even proposing all sexps, just lists, strings, and numbers
19:01	hiredman	with a padded hex byte count prefixed
19:02	ninjudd	hiredman: for the entire string?
19:02	hiredman	yes
19:02	hiredman	0x00001D:(("code" "(+ 1 2)") ("id" 1))
19:02	ninjudd	so you want that instead of netstrings so that the prefix is fixed-width?
19:02	hiredman	if you want to send binary use nrepl to negotiate a more suitable channel
19:03	hiredman	like websocket negotiation over http
19:03	hiredman	ninjudd: yes
19:03	hiredman	so you can easily tell if you have a whole message or not
19:05	hiredman	colon and 0x could be left out, I dunno
19:07	ninjudd	i'm not opposed to this idea
19:07	ninjudd	i think the main objection will be the inability to send binary
19:08	hiredman	which is ridiculous
19:08	hiredman	use nrepl to ask for an http endpoint
19:08	hiredman	DONE
19:09	hiredman	like, we are not build a protocol on which the entire internet is going to use
19:10	hiredman	it's a repl protocol
19:10	ninjudd	i like that much better than adding all this crazy accepts stuff to the base protocol
19:10	hiredman	what does binary data have to do with reading, evaluating, printing, and looping?
19:11	ninjudd	richer printing i suppose
19:12	hiredman	richer display
19:14	hiredman	I really just should ignore the nrepl thread and see what comes out of it, reading it just makes me want to grab people by the shoulders and shake them
19:14	ninjudd	heh. what's your take on this Atoms vs. Agents thing?
19:15	hiredman	who cares?
19:15	ninjudd	awesome
19:16	hiredman	the wire format and mock interactions (to get a feel for it) are 1e10 times more important then how it might currently be implemented
19:18	ninjudd	i'm not sure i agree with that. i'd say the semantics of the map being passed is equally important
19:19	hiredman	I don't follow how that is different from what I said
19:20	hiredman	"passed" means going over the wire?
19:20	ninjudd	hiredman: i thought that by wire-format, you meant: how to represent the map, not the meaning of the keys in the map
19:21	hiredman	in my mind "the wire format and mock interactions" covered everything going on between a client and server
19:22	ninjudd	got it
19:23	hiredman	http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html
19:27	Bahman	Is there some equivalent to DOLISP in Lisp? I need to iterate a list and apply a function to each element.
19:27	amalloy	chuckle
19:27	amalloy	Bahman: you probably don't actually need that, but if you do it's ##(doc doseq)
19:27	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
19:28	Bahman	Thanks amalloy!
19:28	cemerick	hiredman: sounds like you would like to essentially just lift clojure.main/repl onto a socket and call it a day
19:28	hiredman	cemerick: no, I don't thing exposing the rich set of sexps that clojure has is easy, a simple subset is good
19:29	hiredman	and prefixed with a bytecount
19:29	hiredman	cemerick: and again, clojure.main/repl is an implementation detail that at this phase in design has no place
19:29	ninjudd	hiredman: the decision about agents vs atoms has a lot to do with how mock interactions work
19:30	hiredman	ninjudd: I fail to see how, you make the mock interactions do what you want, then pick the bits you need to implement it
19:31	ninjudd	well, in this case, the implementation choice of atoms or agents influences the interface, which dictates how it works
19:31	hiredman	I would be much more likely to implement nrepl using something like a thread pool of repls that are given a state and a form and return new state and a result
19:32	hiredman	ninjudd: I disagree
19:33	hiredman	it is one thing to be mindful of the tools you have, it is another thing to make everything a nail or screw when you have a screendriver and a Mjöllnir
19:33	hiredman	heh
19:33	hiredman	(irssi setup to replace h a m m e r with Mjöllnir)
19:33	amalloy	haha awesome
19:34	hiredman	screwdriver
19:34	ninjudd	hiredman: so you would pass the state from the client with every command?
19:35	hiredman	ninjudd: most likely keep a separate map of id => state or session id => state or something like that
19:36	hiredman	but I imagine that and agents both might run into issues with debuggers which may not like you jumping around on threads
19:36	hiredman	not sure
19:38	ninjudd	oh, so you'd just reimplement a bad version of agents instead of using them. cool
19:38	hiredman	is it a bad version of agents?
19:38	hiredman	could be
19:39	ninjudd	well, you'd probably implement a decent version i suppose
19:39	hiredman	but my point is, we should decided what we want, what is best, and that should drive the code we write, not the other way around
19:40	hiredman	if we want forkable repls, fine, make that a requirement
19:40	cemerick	hiredman: That's the whole point of the wiki page and the problem statements, etc. therein.
19:40	cemerick	If those are the wrong problems or an incomplete statement of them, speak up on the ML
19:41	hiredman	sure, the wikipedia does a better job of staying on (what I consider to be the) topic than the ml thread does
19:42	ninjudd	fine. it was just easier to say: "what do you think of Atoms vs. Agents" than, "what do you think about having the resulting state of parallel commands be undefined"
19:43	hiredman	that is interesting
19:44	hiredman	enforced serialization seems to be the currect answer, but I don't know
19:44	hiredman	correct
19:44	hiredman	the wiki
19:49	hiredman	cemerick: is the desire not use sexps because "well, if we use sexps we may as well just put a repl on a socket?"
19:50	hiredman	sexps seem just as compelling as bencoding or netstrings, the with bonus that we already have a reader and a printer
19:54	xcv	Don't know if you guys consider this off topic, but I wanted to check whether anybody had experience writing a serious client-side web app in Clojurescript, how you like it and whether switching from jQuery / learning to use the Google Closure stuff instead was a bad experience or reasonably easy and worthwhile...?
19:56	tolstoy	Is there a handy function that's like cycle but remembers where it left off each time you call it?
19:57	xcv	the idea of writing the client-side code basically in clojure, with a mostly-clojure REPL, sounds like a dream, and I'm pondering whether to start investing my startup in it sometime in the coming months
19:57	hiredman	tolstoy: cycle generates a lazy seq, just walk it
19:57	xcv	by all means, opine :)
19:57	amalloy	tolstoy: you want a mutable sequence? kinda dangerous/gross, but otherwise that's all there is to it
19:58	tolstoy	amalloy: hiredman: Here's the use case: I have three IP addresses. Each time a function calls this X thing, I want it to move on to the next IP in the sequence, then start over.
19:58	tolstoy	Kind of a yield thing.
19:58	tolstoy	I have a habit of re-implementing core functions, so I was just curious. ;)
19:59	hiredman	tolstoy: best is if you do it as a lazy seq
19:59	tolstoy	hiredman: Okay. Thanks.
19:59	hiredman	e.g. you return an infinite lazy-seq of ip addresses, and first/rest as needed
20:00	amalloy	an infinite sequence of IP addresses! that would solve the ipv4->6 problem trivially
20:00	ninjudd	xcv: you may get more response if you post you question to the mailing list
20:00	tolstoy	ha ha.
20:01	hiredman	if you turn the caller of X into a fn that takes the ip as a parameter instead of calling X you can do (map (fn [ip] stuff) (cycle ips))
20:01	tolstoy	Hmm.
20:03	hiredman	if you have other parameters (map (fn [other ip] stuff) other (cycle ips))
20:03	tolstoy	Then take the first of that?
20:03	hiredman	well, replace the second other with others, unless it really is singular
20:03	hiredman	tolstoy: hmm?
20:03	hiredman	take how ever much you need
20:04	tolstoy	I have something like: (let [data (cycle addrs)] (defn next-addr [] (first data)))
20:04	hiredman	:(
20:04	hiredman	that is horrible
20:04	tolstoy	Not only that, but it doesn't work! ;)
20:04	hiredman	the cycle there is pointless
20:04	tolstoy	Heh.
20:05	hiredman	do your futures have meaningful returns values?
20:05	hiredman	functions
20:05	tolstoy	What I need is a generator.
20:05	tolstoy	Think a rabbit-mq connection, and a series of IP addresses in a cluster.
20:05	hiredman	if so then you want map anway, and you can just use it
20:05	hiredman	sure
20:05	hiredman	I understand how rabbitmq works
20:05	tolstoy	When a rabbit-mq connection goes down, I want to call a magical function called "get me the next one in the list".
20:06	tolstoy	Alas, I seem to have drawn a total blank. I probably need to rest.
20:06	hiredman	I think you'll find .newConnection on the connection factory takes an array of hosts
20:06	tolstoy	Does it?
20:07	tolstoy	Hm. I must have looked in the wrong place for that sort of thing.
20:07	hiredman	at least the version I am using does
20:07	amalloy	like i said, you're just asking for a mutable sequence, if this is the api you really want (i think hiredman is right that you probably don't want this api). but it's simple to do with a ref: (let [ips (ref (cycle addrs))] (defn next-addr [] (dosync (let [x (first ips)] (alter ips rest) x))))
20:07	hiredman	tolstoy: so you should just pass in your ips
20:08	hiredman	(map compute-stuff (repeatedly (partial connect-to-rabbit params)))
20:08	hiredman	or something
20:09	tolstoy	amalloy: Yes, that makes sense. And, yes, if I can find a place to supply the IPs direct to rabbit mq, I'd be happier.
20:10	tolstoy	You say .newConnection takes a list? I'm not seeing it.
20:10	hiredman	it takes an array
20:10	hiredman	http://www.rabbitmq.com/releases/rabbitmq-java-client/v2.6.1/rabbitmq-java-client-javadoc-2.6.1/
20:10	hiredman	http://www.rabbitmq.com/releases/rabbitmq-java-client/v2.6.1/rabbitmq-java-client-javadoc-2.6.1/com/rabbitmq/client/ConnectionFactory.html#newConnection%28com.rabbitmq.client.Address[]%29
20:11	tolstoy	Hm. I wonder if they dropped that on 2.7.0?
20:12	tolstoy	http://www.rabbitmq.com/releases/rabbitmq-java-client/v2.7.0/rabbitmq-java-client-javadoc-2.7.0/com/rabbitmq/client/ConnectionFactory.html#newConnection()
20:12	tolstoy	Perhaps they moved it to these magical "client properties" object.
20:14	hiredman	thats kind of annoying
20:14	tolstoy	No kidding! :)
20:18	tolstoy	Pretty interesting that they took it out. I guess I can post to a mailing list and ask why they did that.
20:20	pandeiro	how does one execute a do...while loop in clojure, where the condition is checked after at least one iteration?
20:21	amalloy	never, to a first approximation
20:21	hiredman	stop looping
20:21	amalloy	simply because while and do/while are atrociously non-functional
20:21	pandeiro	ok
20:22	pandeiro	i am trying to convert a string to byte array... any suggestions?
20:22	tolstoy	pandeiro: loop / recur might work.
20:22	tolstoy	(.getBytes "string")
20:22	hiredman	,(.getBytes "foo")
20:22	amalloy	$javadoc String getBytes
20:22	lazybot	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html#getBytes(int,%20int,%20[B,%20int)
20:22	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@136407c>
20:22	pandeiro	ClojureScript :)
20:22	lancepantz	they were waiting for that one
20:22	hiredman	reduce
20:22	tolstoy	Heh.
20:23	amalloy	pandeiro: if you do it youself, you'll do it wrong. i know i would
20:23	pandeiro	amalloy, i am using a pretty standard JS impl as the template
20:24	amalloy	what i'm getting at is such functions usually don't bother with character-encoding. characters contain more information than bytes (and not just because java uses two bytes to hold a char)
20:24	pandeiro	http://sprunge.us/IggK?js
20:25	pandeiro	i see.
20:25	hiredman	:(
20:25	hiredman	horrid
20:26	hiredman	anyway, use reduce
20:26	pandeiro	hiredman, ok i will meditate on that, thanks
20:26	amalloy	hiredman: more like a mapcat, isn't it? (mapcat (fn [char] [byte1 byte2 ...]) s)
20:26	tolstoy	Is this ongoing? http://clojure.org/streams Clojure 1.4, for instance?
20:27	hiredman	amalloy: could be, depends if he wants to produce a seq or a js array
20:27	amalloy	tolstoy: (Note: this section describes work in progress, currently only available in SVN)
20:27	hiredman	tolstoy: dead as far as I know
20:27	amalloy	that tells me it is extremely old
20:28	tolstoy	Yeah, I figured. Google has it at 2009.
20:28	hiredman	it is, pre-1.2, possibly pre-1.0
20:28	hiredman	tolstoy: I know you are googling for "clojure generators" please stop
20:28	amalloy	interesting to see that clojure was defining map, filter, and so on, the way lamina does now
20:28	tolstoy	hiredman: Heh. No such thing and never will be?
20:29	hiredman	do what amalloy suggested with the atom, or use map
20:29	amalloy	generators are isomorphic with lazy-seqs
20:29	amalloy	but they're presented in a much more stateful way
20:29	amalloy	clojure doesn't like the statefulness, and already has lazy-seqs, so it isn't getting generators
20:30	tolstoy	Okay, okay. Just exploring a little.
20:33	reiddraper	I'm going to implement my own set "type" with deftype, and I'm looking for the protocol/interfaces I should implement to make it respond in the same way as a "normal" set. Where can I find this? The closest I've found is http://fiji.sc/javadoc/clojure/lang/IPersistentSet.html
20:34	hiredman	,(supers (class #{}))
20:34	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.APersistentSet clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection clojure.lang.AFn java.util.Set clojure.lang.IEditableCollection ...}
20:34	hiredman	all the interfaces in that set (not the abstract classes)
20:34	amalloy	reiddraper: https://github.com/flatland/ordered/blob/develop/src/ordered/set.clj
20:35	reiddraper	thanks hiredman, amalloy
20:35	hiredman	wow, yesterday was clojurebot's birthday
20:36	amalloy	hiredman: first commit, 1.0, first login...?
20:36	hiredman	nov. 21st, 2008 was the first gist
20:36	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/27733
20:37	technomancy	yeah, I got started on Clojure from the pragprog black friday sale
20:38	hiredman	hah, look at all those docstrings
20:40	hiredman	clojurebot: what is your origin story?
20:40	clojurebot	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-21.html#13:04
20:56	devn	cemerick: you around?
20:58	jcromartie	meatdata, and lolcathost
21:00	reiddraper	I'm trying to understand how one might do something like implementation inheritance with deftype. I see the light of polymorphism with multimethods and defrecord, but in cases where you should use deftype, what options are there?
21:01	Raynes	You don't.
21:02	reiddraper	Raynes: alright, so perhaps someone can help me think about this problem "differently". I have two different Set types I'd like to implement, which have some underlying similarities.
21:02	hiredman	there are a number of ways to do that
21:02	reiddraper	I suppose I could create a builder func that would set some bool on the type and my funcs can decide whether they want to switch on it or not
21:02	hiredman	the simplest is just put the shared functionality in a function, and have both implementations call the function
21:03	hiredman	but you can really do whatever you want, you can write macros to generate two deftypes that differ slightly
21:05	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/tuples/blob/master/src/tuples/core.clj#L47 generates distinct types for tuples, with two element tupls also implementing Map.Entry
21:05	reiddraper	hiredman: I rather like that second idea. I get the idea that I shouldn't necessarily be inheriting someone else's implementation details
21:05	reiddraper	but it also seems wrong to have two quite similar types and have to declare that they are using the same funcs for 30% of their calls
21:05	hiredman	wrong how?
21:06	reiddraper	verbose, for one. I'd at least like to be able to do it for a whole protocol. Perhaps this is where the power of macros come in
21:06	goodieboy	how can i select alternating values from a list?
21:08	hiredman	,(doc take-nth)
21:08	clojurebot	"([n coll]); Returns a lazy seq of every nth item in coll."
21:08	reiddraper	hiredman: the tuple-for example you sent is great, thanks
21:08	goodieboy	,(take-nth 2 '(1 2 3))
21:08	clojurebot	(1 3)
21:08	hiredman	it is certainly something
21:08	goodieboy	hiredman: nice thanks!
21:09	hiredman	my first use of detype for a 'real' datastructure
21:16	goodieboy	i'm attempting to create a macro that defines a set of "lettings", I can't figure out how to make this work? https://gist.github.com/1387726
21:17	goodieboy	oops... just edited that to actually make sense :)
21:18	alex_baranosky	ok
21:20	alex_baranosky	goodieboy: looks liek aplain let to me
21:20	bhenry	same here
21:20	goodieboy	alex_baranosky: but how can i pass in arbitrary "lettings"?
21:21	alex_baranosky	your example is just 'let
21:21	Raynes	alex_baranosky: For a moment there I felt like I was playing madgab.
21:22	bhenry	goodieboy: what are you trying to do?
21:22	goodieboy	so yeah, sorry... that example doesn't describe what it is i'm trying to do fully
21:22	bhenry	,(let [one 1 two 2]
21:22	bhenry	(str "1 => " one " and 2 => " two))
21:22	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
21:23	alex_baranosky	goodieboy: create a nicer example, and I'm sure someone will help out
21:23	bhenry	that's a head scratcher
21:23	goodieboy	yes you're right, let met create a better example :)
21:24	alex_baranosky	Raynes: typing's a mofo sometimes ;)
21:25	cemerick	devn: hi
21:28	goodieboy	man, this is still probably a bad example, but what I'm trying to do is create a little dsl, and provide bindings for various values that might be needed within the body: https://gist.github.com/1387726
21:31	brehaut	goodieboy: you are using a macro so you can override or in the context of the query?
21:32	cemerick	hiredman: sexps are only beneficial if both sides of a connection are Clojure (or some other lisp, at a minimum) and you only care about pushing around the structures supported by the flavor of sexprs you choose, i.e. no efficient binary
21:33	goodieboy	brehaut: well, overriding or is not really what i'm doing specifically, but what I was hoping to illustrate is that I don't want to eval the code immediately, so I need a macro
21:34	goodieboy	i'm probably not thinking about this correctly, i guess i'm more curious about how you can create bindings that the body of a macor (when evaluated) can have access to?
21:34	goodieboy	err, macro :)
21:35	brehaut	goodieboy: do you understand (defmacro bogo-let [bindings & body] `(let ~bindings ~@body))
21:36	chouser	this must be some circle of hell Dente never imagined
21:36	goodieboy	brehaut: ahh yeah, i just tried something very similar!
21:37	amalloy	chouser: i'm trying desperately to come up with a dental pun here
21:37	chouser	heh
21:37	chouser	oops
21:37	brehaut	goodieboy: macroexpand and macroexpand-1 are your friends
21:38	pandeiro	hiredman: implemented string-to-bytes with reduce but how do i deal with the case of a char larger than one byte? http://sprunge.us/OieA?cl
21:38	chouser	I'm trying to port some code to Clojure 1.3, but it uses a lib that needs some tweaks, which uses a lib that needs some tweaks
21:38	amalloy	chouser: that's pretty much been the 1.3 story for months
21:38	chouser	...so now I'm debugging build failures in a maven projects three levels deeper than I care about.
21:38	goodieboy	brehaut: geez, that was too simple in the end. thanks for that.
21:39	brehaut	goodieboy: clojure has a bunch of ways of delaying evaluation beyond macros too. functions are the most obvious, but also delay and force are worth you looking at
21:39	duck1123	chouser: there was a time when just about every lib I depend on was like that
21:40	goodieboy	brehaut: cool thanks, i'll be sure to check those out
21:40	duck1123	thankfully, It's much better now
21:40	chouser	I take back everything I ever said about enjoying breaking other peoples' code.
21:40	amalloy	brehaut, goodieboy: delay and force are just macros on top of the real way to delay evaluation, which is just wrapping something up in a function
21:40	brehaut	amalloy: of course; but theres no sense reinventing that
21:41	chouser	I don't mind so much fixing clojure code, but build errors drive me a bit crazy.
21:42	brehaut	chouser: i thought you were talking about being demoted by chanserv. build is definately a more hellish circle
21:42	duck1123	chouser: Especially when you find yourself asking "how did this ever work in the first place?"
21:43	chouser	amalloy: any new thoughts on macroexpansion metadata?
21:43	chouser	duck1123: yeah, exactly
21:43	chouser	one of the few really solid benefits of gentoo was if you could install it, you could build it.
21:44	chouser	not true in .jar land, is it. :-(
21:45	chouser	amalloy: the non-meta part of the form passed to a macro is only input, and what the macro returns is exactly the output
21:45	chouser	the current proposal has metadata being the input and also clobbering the output
21:45	amalloy	chouser: i don't htink i understand the significance of that statement
21:46	amalloy	ah. i didn't wait long enough, i see
21:46	chouser	sorry
21:47	chouser	maybe patching defmacro was the right approach, because then there could be a new defmacro (defmacro* ?) that has the old behavior, that is gives the macro full control of the output.
21:48	amalloy	i don't think it makes sense to think of it as clobbering the output. it's just a compile-time assoc, right? it's like (-> some-map (f) (assoc mykey myval))
21:48	chouser	amalloy: yes, but (f) has limited control of the final output
21:48	amalloy	the caller is explicitly saying, "i need this form to have metadata X", so they assoc it in before they "look at" the result of macroexpansion
21:50	ninjudd	cemerick: so i take it you're opposed to establishing a separate channel for communicating binary data?
21:50	chouser	hm, it is true that a macro can has plenty of other ways to accept input. besides all the args, it has metadata on the args and on its own name
21:52	cemerick	ninjudd: not opposed, but such things get really complicated, especially if the REPL server is on a remote environment. Port privileges, firewalls, an implementation hurdle for clients and tools…
21:52	cemerick	So, ok, maybe opposed :-)
21:52	brehaut	why not just http over spdy
21:52	brehaut	(only mostly joking)
21:53	amalloy	chouser: i agree there's a place for something like defmacro* but it seems extremely uncommon to want to ignore metadata that the caller has put on the form
21:53	chouser	but it wouldn't be ignoring it necessarily. It could be taking it as input and doing something else with it.
21:53	cemerick	brehaut: carrier pigeon would resolve the firewall and port issues. :-P
21:54	ninjudd	cemerick: yeah. base64 encoding sounds way simpler that all that
21:54	Raynes	chouser: You're so adorable. I saw hiredman's origin-of-clojurebot IRC log where you said that an IRC bot would annoy people.
21:54	chouser	^Foo (mac) --> (do ^Foo (that thing) (this thing))
21:54	Raynes	Three years later and we would all curl up and die if the evalbots disappeared.
21:54	cemerick	ninjudd: which is dreadfully slow, even using the fastest base64 impl :-/
21:54	ninjudd	yeah
21:55	chouser	clojurebot: do you annoy people?
21:55	amalloy	chouser: i've been having trouble constructing a form where this sort of behavior is useful, and i don't think yours is an example
21:55	clojurebot	min people is 5
21:55	chouser	amalloy: heh.
21:55	amalloy	hinting the return value of a form that doesn't get used is useless
21:55	chouser	amalloy: good point
21:55	brehaut	cemerick: lol
21:56	amalloy	i see what you're saying though. in the current system you can have a "back channel" to talk to the macro by settings its &form metadata to control how it behaves in some other way, without setting a typehint in your expansion context
21:56	chouser	Raynes: do you have a link?
21:56	Raynes	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-21.html#13:04
21:56	chouser	amalloy: that's what I'm saying, but I'm not at all sure it's important
21:57	chouser	What metadata on an expression matters to the compiler besides the type hint, line number, and filename?
21:57	duck1123	ahhh... memories
21:57	amalloy	i think it's probably not, especially with your CRAZY hack of setting metadata on the macro's own name
21:58	amalloy	chouser: i'm not sure. i haven't read the whole compiler, but those are the only three that stick out to me
21:58	chouser	Hm -- that's interesting. What if we turned the exception around and only applied :tag, rather than applying everything other than :line and :file?
21:58	amalloy	chouser: static, inline, dynamic
22:00	chouser	those are on var names, right? places where a macro can't expand anyway?
22:00	hugod	is there a clojure wrapper for WeakHashMap?
22:00	amalloy	chouser: as far as i know that's correct. i'm just listing relevant keywords in Compiler.java
22:00	chouser	hm
22:01	amalloy	chouser: i don't see any immediate failure cases for applying only :tag. i keep thinking it would be a problem if some external macro needed to mess with the metadata, but macros go outside-in
22:01	chouser	Raynes: I think you're misrepresenting my reaction. But you called me adorable so I guess I'll let it slide.
22:02	amalloy	i guess: ^{:foo 1} (macro1) => ^{:foo 1} (macro2)
22:03	amalloy	is a cause that might break: you put meta on macro1 in order to get it to macro2, which looks at its &form meta
22:03	chouser	ooh, interesting.
22:03	amalloy	and you lose that ability if we only apply :tag
22:03	chouser	right
22:04	amalloy	not clear to me that this is an important ability, of course :P
22:05	amalloy	well. i guess that wouldn't work in the current setup unless macro1 looked at its &form also
22:06	chouser	yeah, we've got one clear point -- the default case can be better. The consequences of making it always work that way for :tag or for other metadata is all vague.
22:06	amalloy	and if it is looking at &form, then it must be setting meta on its return value to get it macro2, and that would still work under your proposal. so we wouldn't break an existing usage by applying only :tag, we'd just lose the automatic-forwarding through a "dumb" macro1 to a "smart" macro2 that my original patch adds
22:07	chouser	does that argue for a change of smaller impact now? re-apply :tag for now, and add others either individually or en masse later?
22:07	amalloy	hmmmm
22:08	chouser	BTW, this is me just practicing at careful design. I assume whatever we come up with will be shot full of whole later in the process.
22:09	amalloy	well, i shot a bunch of holes myself by writing three patches. so i appreciate the goal
22:09	chouser	Not that the proposal won't ultimately be accepted, just that no matter how hard I work at careful design I seem to have blind spots for gaping holes elsewhere.
22:10	amalloy	chouser: i'm actually not sure whether adding just :tag is more or less likely to be accepted. it's smaller-impact, but has more "specific" things we could have gotten wrong
22:11	chouser	well, one last thought. If we did want to support defmacro* in the future, I wonder if it would be worth abstracting the applyMacro bit so that both macroexpand and add-meta could use it
22:11	chouser	I've gotta run. ttyl
22:11	amalloy	night, thanks
22:12	amalloy	didn't understand that last point but not exactly urgent
22:13	reiddraper	in the definition of a type, what's the difference between (.seq this) and (seq this), if I've implemented the seq func for IPersistentSet?
22:14	amalloy	reiddraper: the latter routes through clojure.lang.RT but ends up the same place
22:14	reiddraper	amalloy: thanks
22:50	Raynes	Man. Why is fogus never here?
22:57	jcromartie	Raynes: dance class?
22:57	Raynes	Eh?
23:02	duck1123	I just spent a good 45 minutes debugging a tricky set of multimethods I have only to just now realize I had the order of arguments wrong for one of them.
23:02	duck1123	go little used code
23:03	amalloy	duck1123: better than discovering a library author changed the argument order in an update, at least
23:06	duck1123	true. I have this series of multimethods that return different values depending on the value of two other dynamically bound values. For the longest time, I used two convenience macros for setting them up, but when I created a macro merging the two, I got the order backwards from how I had used it elsewhere
23:21	reiddraper	What determines how a type looks when it's printed at the repl? The result of pr on that obj?
23:21	reiddraper	I've made my own type and I'm curious where the look of it printed is coming from
23:23	amcnamara	amalloy: subtle.
23:23	brehaut	reiddraper: print-dup (a multi)
23:25	reiddraper	brehaut: and is there a way to see which func it's being dispatched to?
23:27	brehaut	reiddraper: i dunno. /me dives into source
23:27	amalloy	&(apropos 'method)
23:27	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: apropos in this context
23:27	amalloy	dangit brehaut, how do you use that thing
23:28	brehaut	$(use 'clojure.repl)
23:28	brehaut	&(use 'clojure.repl)
23:28	lazybot	⇒ nil
23:28	brehaut	(apropos 'method)
23:28	brehaut	&(apropos 'method) ; excuse me while i fail a lot
23:28	lazybot	⇒ (clj_http.core.proxy$org.apache.http.client.methods.HttpEntityEnclosingRequestBase$0 make-service-method remove-method find-protocol-method defmethod -reset-methods remove-all-methods prefer-method method-sig methods print-method get-method wrap-method)
23:28	amalloy	get-method
23:29	amalloy	&(get-method print-dup '(1 2 3))
23:29	lazybot	⇒ nil
23:29	amalloy	feh
23:29	brehaut	&(keys (methods print-dup))
23:29	lazybot	⇒ (nil clojure.lang.PersistentVector java.util.regex.Pattern java.lang.Number clojure.lang.IPersistentList clojure.lang.Fn clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap java.lang.String java.lang.Character clojure.lang.ISeq java.lang.Double clojure.lang.BigInt clojure.lang.Ratio ja... https://gist.github.com/1387884
23:30	reiddraper	amalloy: yeah I get nil too in my repl
23:30	amalloy	oh, right
23:30	brehaut	it'll probably fall through to a default?
23:30	amalloy	&(get-method print-dup (class '(1 2 3)))
23:30	lazybot	⇒ #<core$fn__4992 clojure.core$fn__4992@be0cd7>
23:30	brehaut	actually, clojure.lang.IRecord
23:30	brehaut	is a likely candidate
23:31	amalloy	IRecord? is that in 1.3?
23:32	brehaut	i guess it must be, my 1.2 repl isnt finding it
23:32	brehaut	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_print.clj#L217
23:33	brehaut	so it turns out there is a crap ton of detail in what implementation is chosen for a particular type
23:34	brehaut	and i see that a) im missing a bunch of the specially named characters in inc-clojure-brush and that b) the pygments brush is missing them all
23:34	amalloy	specially-named characters? you mean like \newline?
23:34	brehaut	yeah
23:34	amalloy	i covered those in pygments
23:34	brehaut	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_print.clj#L248-253
23:34	amalloy	\, followed by either any single character or a-z+
23:35	brehaut	amalloy: perhaps github isnt using the latest version of the brush ?
23:35	amalloy	brehaut: they updated to my version at least. are you sure it's pygments and not their css?
23:36	reiddraper	brehaut: thanks, looks like it's getting called here https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_print.clj#L240
23:36	reiddraper	for my type
23:36	brehaut	amalloy: yeah, the spans are wrapping (for example) '\n' a 'ewline'
23:37	amalloy	oh. i bet i just did it in the wrong order
23:37	brehaut	reiddraper: bonus lesson: the clojure clojure source code is pretty readable
23:37	amalloy	(.\|[a-z]+), instead of the other way round
23:37	brehaut	oh true, that'd do it
23:37	reiddraper	brehaut: yeah I'm finding that out :)
23:37	brehaut	now you have two problems
23:38	brehaut	amalloy: im going to copy your rule for my brush
23:38	brehaut	much easier than hardcoding a bunch of names
23:38	amalloy	brehaut: copy+fix it, plz :P
23:38	brehaut	amalloy: ha yes :P i have no regexp though, so i wont fall into the same trap ;)
23:38	amalloy	clever
23:39	brehaut	i did it for speed more than correctness :P
23:39	reiddraper	brehaut: so I think we're calling get-method wrong
23:39	brehaut	(all though as a side effect it fixed a couple of really curly bugs)
23:39	reiddraper	the last arg should not by the obj, but the result returned from defmethod
23:39	reiddraper	err defmulti
23:40	amalloy	reiddraper: that's what i did the second time
23:40	amalloy	&(get-method print-dup (class '(1 2 3)))
23:40	lazybot	⇒ #<core$fn__4992 clojure.core$fn__4992@be0cd7>
23:40	reiddraper	amalloy: oh yes, sorry I missed that
23:40	alexbaranosky	say you wanted to mock any arbitrary java method call, how would you go about it?.... I ask because I'm looking for ideas on good ways to add the ability to do this to Midje
23:43	amalloy	alexbaranosky: am i implementing the feature or using it?
23:43	brehaut	amalloy: damnit. im still going to need to explicitly check for & < and > . what a pita
23:43	alexbaranosky	amalloy: depends on your enthusiasm level
23:43	amalloy	i mean, what is the question you're asking
23:43	brehaut	now i have to catch a bus
23:44	alexbaranosky	I want to make it so that in midje you can say (fact (foo 2) => 8 (provided (.size bar) => 40)
23:45	alexbaranosky	amalloy: I'm wondering what some approaches to that problem might work under the hood
23:46	amalloy	and the thing you're mocking is some java object that has to continue behaving the way it already does except for this change?
23:47	alexbaranosky	amalloy: well there are different possibilities: what you're describing is usually called a spy
23:47	alexbaranosky	amalloy: but the standard is to assuem a mock is a totally new object, that only does the stuff you specified
23:47	alexbaranosky	amalloy: thus, we don't need to preserve behavior
23:48	duck1123	it would be nice though if you could mock only a particular method
23:48	amalloy	well. if you can require the user to provide a class or interfaces that this thing should extend/implement it's not hard
23:48	alexbaranosky	duck1123: yeah we could have spies too perhaps???
23:48	lazybot	alexbaranosky: Oh, absolutely.
23:48	amalloy	but we can't just add arbitrary methods to an object/class like we could in ruby or java
23:49	amalloy	one possibility is to define an interface on the fly, with the methods you want, and then return a reification of that interface
23:49	duck1123	or java?
23:49	amalloy	duck1123: by just making up a new class that has those methods
23:49	alexbaranosky	it could looks something like: (provided (.size ^Bar ...bar...) => 40) maybe?
23:49	amalloy	clojure's class-creation demands interfaces
23:50	duck1123	ahh, rspec handles this kind of thing quite nicely
23:50	amalloy	alexbaranosky: (provided (mocking bar IBar (.size [this] 10)))?
23:51	amalloy	ie, you want the syntax to look exactly like reify
23:51	amalloy	which makes it easy for users to understand, and easy for you to transform to a reify
23:52	alexbaranosky	amalloy: I'm not as much concerned about ease of transforming to reify, but am definitely very concerned about people understanding the API
23:53	amalloy	alexbaranosky: your => 40 syntax fits better with the rest of midje, but doesn't really "scale" to mocking multiple methods as far as i can tell
23:54	alexbaranosky	amalloy: in midje you can already say things like: (fact (x) => 1 (provided (foo) => 2 (bar) => 3 (baz) => 4))
23:54	amalloy	and neither syntax really handles the possibility that they need to extend a concrete class
23:55	alexbaranosky	extending concrete classes, in my mind is a rare except I haven't done it in months home or at work
23:56	duck1123	I guess your best bet is to adjust your function lines till you can easily pass in mocked out classes for the inner functions and use traditional midje mocking for the rest
23:56	amalloy	agreed, but you're trying to provide a facility for mocking java objects. those objects aren't always designed as clojure-friendly
23:57	alexbaranosky	you make good points
23:57	duck1123	is there a clojure wrapper for jmock?
23:57	alexbaranosky	what do you think of?: (fact (x) => 1 (provided (.foo IFoo f) => 2 (.bar IBar b) => 3 (.baz IBaz bz ) => 4))
23:58	duck1123	I haven't gotten around to playing with that yet
23:58	alexbaranosky	midje could identify these as method calls by their symbol names