#clojure – 2011-11-02

2011-11-02

00:12	spoon16	how do I make an anonymous function call itself?
00:12	spoon16	(fn [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (self-call-here (inc i)))))
00:13	napping	you can use recur
00:13	brehaut	,((fn fn-name [a] (if (odd? a) (fn-name (inc a)) (str a))) 1)
00:13	clojurebot	"2"
00:13	brehaut	or you could bust out the y combinator :P
00:14	napping	,((fn [i] (if (> i 0) (recur (dec i)) 12)) 10)
00:14	clojurebot	12
00:14	napping	only good for tail calls, though
00:14	dnolen	core.logic 0.6.5 out the door. now easier to use!
00:14	brehaut	dnolen: congrats :)
00:15	dnolen	not a big change really, stopped overloading anything except ==, and all the useful functions are now in one namespace.
00:15	dnolen	(ns foo.bar (:refer-clojure :exclude [==]) (:use clojure.core.logic))
00:26	tcj	I've got a matrix (2-d vector) of maps. I want to update maps contained in the cells of the matrix given a sequence of maps and a sequence of x/y coordinates. I'd like to have a function (defn update-matrix [matrix maps coords] ...) that updates the matrix. I'm getting stuck, I think because I'm trying to update the non-persistent collections in clojure. I've tried using transient, but it's...
00:26	tcj	...tricky with nested sequences. Any advice?
00:27	brehaut	wow. thats dense
00:28	brehaut	tcj: what non persistent collections are you using, and why?
00:28	tcj	brehaut: aren't persistent collections the default in clojure?
00:29	brehaut	tcj: yes; and you said "I think because I'm trying to update the non-persistent collections in clojure"
00:29	tcj	So if I update a map using (assoc), it'll return a new map
00:29	tcj	Ahh
00:29	tcj	I mis-typed
00:29	tcj	I meant "... persistent collections in clojure"
00:30	brehaut	ok, so lets start at the top. you are using a collection of vectors of vectors of maps ?
00:30	brehaut	s/collection of vectors/vectors/
00:30	tcj	Maybe...
00:31	tcj	It's like this [[{} {} {}] [{} {} {}]]
00:31	tcj	So a vector of vectors of maps
00:31	spoon16	(defn ^File file… is that a type hint on the return?
00:32	tcj	And I want to update the maps
00:32	brehaut	tcj. ok, _how_ do you want to update the maps?
00:32	tcj	I want to add key/values
00:33	brehaut	to every map ?
00:33	brehaut	or a particular map
00:33	tcj	Just a particular map
00:34	brehaut	,(assoc-in [[{} {} {}]] [0 0 :a] 1) ; <- tcj
00:34	clojurebot	[[{:a 1} {} {}]]
00:34	brehaut	(doc assoc-in)
00:34	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] v]); Associates a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and v is the new value and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
00:35	tcj	Great, I think that'll work
00:35	tcj	brehaut: Thanks!
00:36	flognikr	tcj: might also want to check update-in
00:37	flognikr	depending on how you want to modify the maps.
00:37	flognikr	(doc update-in)
00:37	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
01:41	tolstoy	If I have a bunch of dynamic vars I want to set in sequence, rather than parallel, is it acceptable style to use let instead of binding?
01:44	tolstoy	Hm. Doesn't work. I guess that answers that. ;)
02:09	spoon16	can you annotate a defmulti with documentation or a defmethod?
02:10	tolstoy	spoon16: You mean, to they take doc strings?
02:10	spoon16	yeah, I'm trying to figure out when it's appropriate to use ^{ :doc "hi" }
02:11	tolstoy	Usage: (defmulti name docstring? attr-map? dispatch-fn & options)
02:11	tolstoy	Looks like defmulti takes a doc string. defmethod doesn't seem to according to the API page.
02:14	ibdknox	that makes sense right?
02:14	Raynes	&(doc defmulti)
02:14	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name docstring? attr-map? dispatch-fn & options]); Creates a new multimethod with the associated dispatch function. The docstring and attribute-map are optional. Options are key-value pairs and may be one of: :default the default dispatch value, defaults t... https://gist.github.com/1333013
02:14	spoon16	yeah
02:14	ibdknox	how would you get the docstring of the defmethods?
02:14	Raynes	The docstring comes after the name.
02:14	ibdknox	the only symbol you have is that defined by defmulti
02:15	Raynes	ibdknox: It also kill the point of multimethods in the first place. You don't use them just so you can name things the same -- you use them for things that do generally the same thing but in different ways.
02:15	Raynes	It'd*
02:15	Raynes	Excuse me, on my way to English class. ._.
02:15	ibdknox	right
02:16	tolstoy	How come plain old def doesn't take a doc string?
02:16	Raynes	It does in 1.3
02:16	Raynes	&(doc def)
02:16	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
02:16	tolstoy	Oh, really? Hm.
02:16	Raynes	Well, you get the point.
02:16	tolstoy	I get "too many arguments."
02:17	tolstoy	Well, wait. lein repl may not be 1.3.
02:17	ibdknox	it's not
02:17	Raynes	tolstoy: (def x "foo" 0)
02:17	Raynes	Go type that into tryclj.com
02:17	ibdknox	if you're outside of a 1.3 project
02:18	tolstoy	Hm. clj (which announces itself that it's 1.3) doesn't seem to work either.
02:18	Raynes	Dude. tryclj.com.
02:18	Raynes	I've used this in my own code. It definitely works.
02:18	ibdknox	Raynes: pfft who uses that crappy site? :p
02:18	Raynes	I know, right?
02:18	tolstoy	,(def "this is x" x 23)
02:19	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: def in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
02:19	Raynes	Bots don't do def.
02:19	ibdknox	tolstoy, you have them out of order
02:19	Raynes	But yes, out of order.
02:19	Raynes	(def x "foo" 0) <--
02:19	tolstoy	Ah. Sheesh.
02:19	ibdknox	always name then docstring
02:19	ibdknox	or at least I can't think of any counter examples
02:19	tolstoy	Well! That's handy.
02:22	tolstoy	(def ^:dynamic foo 23)
02:22	tolstoy	That cuts down on the verbosity.
02:55	callen	this kills the crab.
03:07	callen	anyone interested in a dark theme for github? I just finished updating mine.
03:10	aperiodic	callen: how is it apllied?
03:10	aperiodic	*applied
03:10	callen	aperiodic: user styles, most browsers have a plugin for "user styles"
03:10	callen	aperiodic: in the case of google chrome / chromium the plugin, "Stylish"
03:10	callen	aperiodic: you just tell it the domain/url/regex you want to apply it to, then copy and paste the CSS hack I wrote.
03:11	aperiodic	callen: got screens?
03:11	callen	good question, h/o
03:13	callen	aperiodic: uploading a couple, give me a moment.
03:13	callen	aperiodic: I made it because there aren't any remotely decent ones out there. Mine isn't perfect, but suffices.
03:14	aperiodic	user styles is sane, just wanted to make sure it's not some crazy proxy server thing
03:14	callen	aperiodic: lol no.
03:14	callen	aperiodic: I'm not that much of an asshole.
03:15	aperiodic	that's actually one thing i don't like about github
03:15	aperiodic	haha, good to hear
03:15	aperiodic	the rest of the code i look at is light-on-darj
03:15	aperiodic	*dark
03:16	callen	http://imgur.com/a/FAA0r imgur album.
03:16	callen	aperiodic: my whole desktop is light on dark
03:16	callen	aperiodic: I have three monitors of white on black urxvt in xmonad.
03:17	aperiodic	god i wanna run xmonad
03:17	aperiodic	it looks like it's not possible to get good text rendering in X11 on OS X
03:18	aperiodic	i'd like to be mistaken
03:18	callen	aperiodic: nah you're right. I have a macbook pro on my desk sitting unused.
03:18	callen	aperiodic: I only use it when I leave the house.
03:18	callen	I keep it and the code it contains updated, that's the extent of it.
03:20	callen	aperiodic: what do you think?
03:21	aperiodic	might tweak saturation a bit myself, but looks solid
03:22	callen	aperiodic: if you tweak it, post the changes and a screenshot comparing them!
03:22	callen	aperiodic: I'd love to see it. :)
03:22	callen	aperiodic: I just didn't want my retinas scorched by the fucking site.
03:23	aperiodic	callen: for sure
03:23	aperiodic	thanks!
03:24	callen	np, always glad to help.
03:45	aperiodic	callen: you should put the screenshots in the readme of the repo
03:45	aperiodic	callen: then you'll b
03:45	aperiodic	e able to see 'em on gh
04:04	callen	okay.
04:06	callen	aperiodic: done
04:06	callen	https://github.com/bitemyapp/github-dark-theme
04:08	aperiodic	nice!
04:16	leo2007	Is leiningen in ubuntu fixed?
04:21	clgv	leo2007: whats the problem with leiningen in your ubuntu system? it's running smoothly here.
04:21	callen	leo2007: http://victorjcheng.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/fix-for-broken-leiningen-in-ubuntu-11-10/
04:21	callen	clgv: look at the link.
04:21	callen	leo2007: use Google d00d.
04:22	clgv	I wouldnt install leiningen via apt ;)
04:22	callen	I wouldn't either, but all the same.
04:23	clgv	it's still developing faster than ubuntu can keep track I guess....
04:28	leo2007	ok, I'll install it myself.
04:34	R4p70r	Is there a function that return the number of items in a collection where a predicate returns true? like (count (filter f coll)) ?
04:35	opqdonut	no, but that is a reasonably efficient implementation
04:37	R4p70r	opqdonut, I know. Laziness. But I though maybe I could do it in one call. Thanks
04:38	opqdonut	well all you've got to do is say (def count-when (comp count filter)) :)
04:45	R4p70r	opqdonut, Yeah. I'm using this all over the place.
04:50	leo2007	How to use lein to start swank?
05:17	leo2007	Any idea how to fix this error while starting swank-clojure? http://paste.pound-python.org/show/14579
05:31	clgv	leo2007: reading its manual - since there is obviously a param missing.
05:34	licenser	hmm somewhere I read something about an alternative to swank when it come to clojure/emacs anyone remembers that?
06:40	apexi200sx	has anyone got any experiences to share of moving to clojure from python ( sorry for spamming a bit but there have been shed loads of connects/disconnects to the channel)
06:41	apexi200sx	the advantages disadvantages, what productivity benefits there are etc.
06:41	apexi200sx	or things to watch out for
07:05	llasram	apexi200sx: I don't know where you are physically, but this is probably about the worst time-of-day to get responses from people in the US :-)
07:07	apexi200sx	llasram: yeah it would seem that if you want to use IRC and you have to wait till the states wakes up :)
07:08	apexi200sx	llasram: Are you a java guy who moved to clojure ?
07:10	llasram	apexi200sx: Haha! No. Still learning the Java stuff, actually. Python was my favorite language personally, but am still doing mostly Ruby professionally. Currently trying get my team to bless Clojure as our default language for contexts where Ruby isn't appropriate
07:12	llasram	So I don't really have much to say about "moving from" another language to Clojure, since I haven't done more than shift to it for green-field personal projects. No idea what the difficulties will be integrating existing code, getting team members up to speed, etc
07:25	clgv	apexi200sx: I don't know what to answer - I think you have to be more specific.
07:40	fliebel	Anyone remember the name of that visual programming language with these truth tables?
07:41	kephale	apexi200sx: well for one, hooking up to C/C++ is a bit more annoying with Clojure. Clojure's REPL trumps ipython IMO.
07:49	apexi200sx	I don't care about backwards compatibility really. I am just looking around for a new language/environment that may help productivity. Currently my favourite general purpose language is Python, I am just interested in anyone who has been using clojure who has had experience with Python also. The reason behind this is, if say, you asked an (open minded) c++ programmer to use c# who had never seen it before the
07:51	apexi200sx	basically what are the killer features. Also, Clojure is not an OOP language. OOP was once touted as a help to programming, how do Clojure programmers feel with losing OOP in place of Clojure's way of doing things
07:51	apexi200sx	are there any trade offs, what are the pros cons ? just throwing a few Questions out there for feedback thats all
07:53	algernon	I had a couple of python projects, some large, some small (still have a few of these left at work), but started to move to clojure a few months ago
07:54	algernon	loosing "oop" wasn't a big deal. clojure's namespaces, prototypes and whatnot actually make more sense to me
07:54	kephale	fliebel: subtext?
07:54	clgv	apexi200sx: do you have the time to try clojure or read one of the introductory books? you'd get an idea if clojure suits you. interestingly, when using clojure it never felt like "loosing oop".
07:59	fliebel	kephale, I'll have a look, thanks
07:59	moomin	Actually, you can OOP in Clojure very easily. Just create a hash-map with a bunch of functions in it.
08:00	moomin	After a while you'll probably decide it wasn't such a great idea, though.
08:00	moomin	Once you stop seeing things as "oop" it feels like an object method is just function closed over its first parameter. (which it is)
08:01	kephale	FWIW Carnegie Mellon stopped teaching OOP to incoming CS students
08:03	fliebel	kephale, it was subtext, but it doesnt seem like you can actually use it.
08:03	moomin	Interesting... :) I read a remark by someone much smarter than me (maybe swanodette) that you can't have a sensible type system with objects.
08:04	fliebel	moomin, So what is there to type beyond primitives?
08:05	hoeck1	apexi200sx: I switched from clojure to python because of a new job a year ago, I had no former exposure to python
08:05	apexi200sx	to all, I am interested to hear experiences of not using OOP, as it has been so ingrained for a long time that OOP is the way for code re use and encapsulation and code organisation. I
08:05	hoeck1	apexi200sx: my python scripts now look more like clojure, for example, I try to avoid deep class hierarchies and encapsulated state, avoid complex functions, break/continue/return in loops etc.
08:05	apexi200sx	hoeck1: do you find you are worse off using Python
08:06	apexi200sx	do you dream of the day you can go back to Clojure ?
08:06	apexi200sx	:)
08:06	fliebel	apexi200sx, Rich Hickey has a few talks whre he explains his vision.
08:06	hoeck1	apexi200sx: I'm missing some convenient things, I really miss immutable data structures
08:07	fliebel	hoeck1, There are libraries, they I heard their use is awkward.
08:07	hoeck1	apexi200sx: I hate some of pythons design decisions, for example, that dictictionary access defaults to raising Exceptions for missing keys, clojure is more sound regarding those things
08:08	hoeck1	fliebel: actually, I'm looking forward to port the clojure ones to python :)
08:09	apexi200sx	hoeck1: Not trying to promote python or anything, but this page can be helpful in writing idiomatic python code... http://python.net/~goodger/projects/pycon/2007/idiomatic/handout.html
08:10	hoeck1	apexi200sx: I'm currently working on an age-old cgi CRUD application, so our code is pretty functional, though my predecessor did built a lot of imperative OO-spaghetti code
08:10	hoeck1	oh and I miss -> and ->>
08:12	apexi200sx	hoeck1: are you saying that some of the stuff you learned from using Clojure have helped you write code better in other languages like Python even though the language is very different.
08:12	apexi200sx	hoeck1 had you programmed in an OOP language before Python and Clojure
08:12	hoeck1	apexi200sx: thanks, I'm actually glad I was forced to learn python, its not a bad language, I don't (currently) see python and clojure competing, for example, I would never use clojure to write shell scripts
08:13	fliebel	hoeck1, http://packages.python.org/pysistence/
08:13	hoeck1	apexi200sx: no real OO language experiences, though I wrote my bachelors thesis project in clojure
08:15	hoeck1	apexi200sx: clojure had a huge influence on me, I would say that my python code is way better now than it would be if I had started using python before being exposed to clojure
08:16	apexi200sx	hoeck1: I assume you have looked at the code of your colleagues who may not have had Clojure exposure. do you find you structure the code differently from them and what do they think of the code you write :)
08:18	hoeck1	apexi200sx: well, about 80% of my work is fixing bugs and adding small features to existing code
08:21	hoeck1	apexi200sx: I'd say that I'm more keen about having nice clean and readable code (according to my standards) than others, but that may be just my age
08:22	apexi200sx	hoeck1: you may be talking more about the skills/care you have/take while programming than the benefits of Clojure knowledge though
08:23	hoeck1	apexi200sx: hard to identify the role that clojure played in that
08:23	kzar	Is there a way to return a lazy sequence of data from inside a with-open block in a way that keeps the file open until the sequence has been realised? (I know one way is to use do-all inside the with-open)
08:24	kzar	Well one way to avoid the problem I should say
08:24	wtfcoder	how would you associate behaviour with data in clojure. lets say we have defined a struct with :firstName and :lastName from my understanding we would not make the function part of the object otherwise it depends on state and not pure. where should we place the fn for reuse
08:26	kzar	wtfcoder: Well you would probably have a namespace to deal with people, a person would be a map (just data) and there would be functions to do what you needed to a person map
08:27	apexi200sx	hoeck1: thanks for your comments, appreciated. I think I am going to have to have a go at converting something i created in Python into clojure and see from there
08:27	wtfcoder	kzar, makes sense kind of like a static fn in OO, CustomerClass.fullName(customerStruct)
08:28	wtfcoder	so generally with clojure we dont verify that we are operating on a customer, if it has a firstname and lastname it is a customer, walks like a duck etc..
08:29	wtfcoder	a more general question, is clojure well suitable to working with asyncronous apis?
08:29	clgv	wtfcoder: you can verify in cases where you want to report errors and such. 'instance? is handy there
08:29	kzar	wtfcoder: Well I can't comment on the static fn bit. The bit about verifying something's a customer - if it has a name and the right attributes that makes it one. I suppose this is applicable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_theory
08:34	clgv	wtfcoder: clojure has functions that you can pass around as callbacks, so it should be suited for asyncronous apis.
08:38	wtfcoder	after working with node.js for a while i was wondering does clojure too suffer from pryamid symdrome with nested callbacks when working with async apis. I guess those working with clojurescript have more experience on this. Would I still need to use helper libs like async.js or
08:48	leo2007	would knowing Java help one learn clojure?
08:50	archaic	in general should i be derefing atoms/data before saving to file? it seems to work either way
08:52	cemerick	leo2007: It's not necessary, but it helps. You do need to understand how the JVM works in certain ways (e.g. classpath and such).
08:53	leo2007	cemerick: any reference for that? I would like to read-up the minimal required.
08:54	cemerick	leo2007: I came from knowing the JVM very well prior to using Clojure, so I never sought out such materials.
08:55	cemerick	leo2007: We did try to provide a reasonable grounding and introduction to the necessary basics here: http://oreilly.com/catalog/0636920013754/ (sorry for the self-plug)
09:00	leo2007	cemerick: no worries. what does rough cuts mean? I'd prefer a full-version.
09:00	llasram	cemerick: BTW, got the Rough Cuts edition to check it out for wooing my co-workers to Clojure. Looks pretty good so far!
09:01	clgv	leo2007: Programming Clojure or Pragmatic Clojure are also an option for starters.
09:01	cemerick	leo2007: It's the same concept as Manning's MEAP: pre-publication versions are put out online for you to use/comment on/whatever, and then you get the final version when it's ready.
09:01	cemerick	llasram: Glad to hear it. The final rev of it will be hitting very shortly, lots and lots of improvements and additions. :-)
09:03	llasram	kzar: you may have figured this out already, `with-open' itself works entirely lexically because it uses `try'. The old clojure.contrib.io has some functions like `read-lines' which will open a reader and keep it open until the entire file is read, but
09:04	llasram	I believe they are considered problematic -- they don't seem to have made it into the new libraries, and I know I had problems with too many open files when trying to use them
09:07	llasram	Actually, lexically is wrong, isn't it? Dynamically? Hmm. Either way, file closes when you leave the scope `with-open' :-)
09:08	leo2007	clgv and cemerick: thanks.
09:08	llasram	cemerick: When's the official publication date? Will there still be time for comments after the next rev?
09:09	cemerick	llasram: I think the official line from O'Reilly is "by the end of the year"; I have no idea what the production process is like. In any case, the earlier your comments get in, the more likely they are to affect the final result.
09:13	clgv	llasram: using reader + read-lines can replace the old read-lines
09:15	llasram	clgv: Hmm. I can't seem to find a `read-lines' except in old clojure.contrib
09:15	llasram	Which one are you talking about?
09:16	clgv	args failure^^ reader + line-seq
09:18	llasram	Ah, right. Except line-seq doesn't automatically close the file, like read-lines did. You still need to arrange for the reader to be closed at some scope, and ensure that your lazy sequence is done using the file before you leave that scope. (As it should be.)
09:20	clgv	no, when using 'reader you'll always have to put it in a 'with-open or close it manually
09:20	kzar	Is there something like select-keys that lets you rename the key? (Or a function I can run after select-keys to rename some of the keys?)
09:21	raek_	yeah, it's not very good to _only_ rely on that the stream is closed when the lazy-seq is fully traversed. (what happends if the whole seq is not consumed, or when an exception is thrown?)
09:22	raek_	kzar: rename-keys in clojure.set
09:23	simard	is there a shortcut for this ? (= (type {}) clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap)
09:23	clgv	simard: ''(doc instance?)
09:23	clgv	&(doc instance?)
09:23	lazybot	⇒ "([c x]); Evaluates x and tests if it is an instance of the class c. Returns true or false"
09:24	simard	thank you
09:24	dnolen	simard: in general map? is preferred, unless you're doing something special.
09:24	simard	hum, map? would do
09:24	simard	maybe
09:25	raek_	map? matches everything that implements clojure.lang.IPersistentMap
09:25	clgv	oh hehe, didnt check the type^^ map? for the special case^^
09:25	dnolen	simard: checking for concrete types is bad practice since there are many types. You generally only care if something satisfies an interface / protocol. Not whether it's a particular type.
09:25	simard	hum then that wouldn't do
09:25	simard	any record does that, right ?
09:25	dnolen	simard: for example {} with > 32 keys / values will become PersistentMap, not PersistentArrayMap
09:26	raek_	,(class {})
09:26	dnolen	simard: map doesn't check type, it checks interface
09:26	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
09:26	raek_	,(class (zipmap (range 20) (range 20)))
09:26	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
09:26	simard	,(class (zipmap (range 200) (range 200)))
09:26	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
09:26	simard	hum
09:27	simard	I see
09:27	raek_	simard: also, you can implement protocols for types other people have defined
09:27	raek_	(extend-type clojure.lang.IPersistentMap MyProtocol (my-method ...))
09:28	simard	so what is the function to test if a type implements a given protocol ?
09:28	raek_	IPersistentMap is basically equivalent to "all kinds of clojure maps"
09:28	raek_	also, why do you need to check the type?
09:28	dnolen	simard: you can check interfaces with instance?, you can check protocols w/ satisfies?
09:28	kzar	raek_: Thanks
09:29	simard	raek: I want to filter a flattened tree based on the type of object contained in it
09:29	raek	simard: one way is to define the filter function as a protocol method
09:30	raek	(defprotocol Filterable (filter-node [this x])) (extend-type clojure.lang.IPersistentMap Filterable (filter-node [m x] ...))
09:31	raek	you'd then have one extend-type per "case"
09:31	simard	yes, well that function will be part of my 4 alraedy existing defrecords then
09:31	raek	protocols are great for assigning new meaning to existing types
09:31	simard	(I already implement protocols in them for some other reasons)
09:31	simard	I'm simply going to add one more :)
09:38	simard	(-> this :properties :aperture) or (get-in this [:properties :aperture]) ?
09:38	simard	is there a real difference I should care about ?
09:40	raek	simard: IMHO, not really. you might get different error messages if (:properties this) is not a map though...
09:41	raek	wait, maybe not...
09:42	raek	simard: one differece is that the -> approach only works when the keys are keywords (which is the absolutely most common case)
09:43	simard	yes, that I understand, they need to be functions
09:43	simard	that would be the main difference probably..
09:45	raek	both are fine in this case. just pick one and don't spend too much time with this choice :-)
09:45	fdaoud	simard: I remember someone smart on here giving two examples, one with -> and one without, and saying they are both the same and you pick the style you prefer
09:45	clgv	simard: get-in is a better match with update-in
09:46	simard	or assoc-in
09:47	clgv	you can also do (->> this :properties :aperture) then it also works for non-keywords^^
09:47	simard	there are so many functions in that language
09:47	fdaoud	clojure?
09:47	clojurebot	clojure is not scheme
09:47	simard	yes, clojure :)
09:47	fdaoud	yes, 100 functions on 1 data structure :)
09:48	fdaoud	instead of 10 functions on 10 data structures
09:48	fdaoud	thank you Alan Perlis
09:49	clgv	oh wait forget about the ->> thingy. I got it mixed up ;)
09:49	simard	clgv: I was trying to figure it out and about to ask you about it .. :)
10:01	WelcomeBot	Welcome to #clojure, WelcomeBot!
10:03	WelcomeBot	Welcome to #clojure, rahul!
10:04	WelcomeBot	Welcome to #clojure, wilkes!
10:04	clgv	that thing is starting to be annoying
10:05	robbe-	s/starting to be//
10:05	clgv	robbe-: add it to iggy list^^
10:05	clgv	I hope my client ignores it now
10:12	cemerick	who runs this WelcomeBot?
10:19	TimMc	Did it get killed?
10:21	cemerick	seems like it
10:27	clgv	oh, and I thought my client ignores it completely.
10:28	simard	hum I've added a third protocol to a defrecord, but when I call a function of that protocol on an instance of that record, I get an error: No implementation of method: :extract-apertures of protocol: #'cpcb-server.pcb/Extracteur found for class: cpcb_server.pcb.Pcb-Object [Thrown class java.lang.IllegalArgumentException]
10:28	simard	however, when I create a new defrecord with only that protocol, it works....
10:28	simard	I've killed swank and retried evaluating all over again, still the same error
10:29	simard	any idea ?
10:35	clgv	simard: you also tried "lein clean" inbetween?
10:36	simard	no
10:37	simard	clgv: thank you, that worked
10:37	simard	but, why ?
10:38	clgv	sometimes it seems that the classes for defrecords and deftypes are not rewritten - I always do the clean then^^
10:49	jcromartie	clgv: are those classes actually AOT compiled?
10:49	jcromartie	clgv: as in, into a .class file?
10:50	clgv	jcromartie: good question. both cases. I did not investigate further
10:50	pandeiro	what would be the idiomatic way to randomly resort a vector?
10:51	TimMc	pandeiro: shuffle it, that is?
10:51	pandeiro	yeah
10:51	TimMc	,(doc shuffle)
10:51	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return a random permutation of coll"
10:51	TimMc	:-)
10:51	pandeiro	ah great, is that avail in clojurescript?
10:51	TimMc	Wouldn't have a clue.
10:52	pandeiro	nope
10:52	pandeiro	i will take a look at the source, thanks for the tip
10:54	gfredericks	does clojurescript have sort-by? (partial sort-by rand) should work I would think
10:55	TimMc	gfredericks: bad bad bad
10:55	pandeiro	why is that bad?
10:56	TimMc	In the best case it will be a shitty sort, in the worst case it will run forever.
10:56	TimMc	s/sort/randomization/
10:57	pandeiro	TimMc: shuffle is taken straight out of Java so there's no JS equivalent... i think gfredericks' solution wfm
10:57	TimMc	I really doubt it.
10:58	clgv	pandeiro: shuffle can be implemented as randomly drawing two positions and exchange them.
10:58	clgv	and you repeat as often as you like. or you iterate through all positions and draw a random position to exchange with
10:59	TimMc	pandeiro: http://sroucheray.org/blog/2009/11/array-sort-should-not-be-used-to-shuffle-an-array/
10:59	pandeiro	clgv: yeah that's how i would've done it in pure JS, thanks
11:00	clgv	pandeiro: if you have no strong mathematical requirements you can safely use one of them
11:01	TimMc	Just don't use sort.
11:02	pandeiro	TimMc, you mean the sort-by?
11:03	TimMc	either
11:03	TimMc	Did you look at the link? You won't get anything even resembling a random distribution.
11:03	pandeiro	yeah it's not loading unfortunately, but you're right, the dist isnt very random
11:04	pandeiro	got a cached version, checking it out
11:07	fdaoud	TimMc: that's a nice post, thanks for the link
11:08	TimMc	pandeiro: In cljs, you don't have transients, right?
11:08	pandeiro	TimMc: embarrassed to say i dont know
11:09	pandeiro	i'm new to clojure
11:09	TimMc	It probably doesn't, it is very young. But it would be appropriate for the Fisher Yates algorithm.
11:09	pandeiro	but i am trying to implement the fisher-yates algo mentioned in the article now... thanks for the link
11:09	TimMc	It's probably fast enough for your needs.
11:11	gtrak	alex is a madman, you guys see this? http://clojurewest.org/news/2011/11/2/clojurewest-is-launched.html
11:15	zerokarmaleft	dang, he's setting up franchises
11:15	gtrak	stamping them out
11:19	clgv	pandeiro: you could as well use sort() for the shuffle. just assign each element of your array a random number and sort the elements related to the random number ^^
11:32	TimMc	pandeiro, clgv: Sorting indices by fixed random numbers: https://gist.github.com/1333940
11:32	TimMc	please golf this, somebody
11:33	zippy314	why is there every?, not-every? and not-any? but no any?
11:33	TimMc	zippy314: Bad name choice. See some.
11:33	clgv	TimMc: the Fisher-Yates or Knuth shuffle is simpler and pretty well suited - I would implement that one
11:33	zippy314	TimMc: cool, thanks.
11:34	TimMc	clgv: Agreed, but I've always wanted to try writing the sort-indices-by-random trick.
11:35	clgv	TimMc: ok ;)
11:36	clgv	TimMc: looks working to me
11:36	simard	is this still the best way to have default values on records https://gist.github.com/504861 ?
11:38	clgv	simard: probably. I dont know of a core-change to defrecord in 1.3
11:39	raek	anyone know if there is something this neat for Clojure (or Java)? https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript_typed_arrays
11:40	dnolen	raek: which part, views?
11:40	clgv	raek: there are Buffers in java.nio
11:40	raek	yes
11:41	raek	the java.nio classes are a bit weird... they contain iteration state
11:41	clgv	but they pretty much allow those multiple views
11:43	cemerick	raek: There's also the gvec stuff if you're looking for a nicer way to work with primitives.
11:45	raek	I like how typed arrays makes it simple to access the data of arrays and structs in binary data formats
11:45	dnolen	cemerick: gvec stuff is a bit incomplete, main advantage at this point is just less memory consumption.
11:45	cemerick	sure
11:45	cemerick	simard: the map->Foo factory function produced by defrecord can help
11:46	cemerick	simard: https://gist.github.com/504861#comments
11:49	clgv	cemerick: ah, nice 1.3 feature
11:51	cemerick	clgv: Yeah; I probably wouldn't write defrecord+ today. Given the generic map factory fn, you can easily define multiple sets of defaults using the same base record type.
11:52	cemerick	complecting a record type with its defaults is not necessarily the right path ;-)
11:57	simard	cemerick: I agree for not complecting things, but I'd have to understand you code first :)
11:59	cemerick	simard: In short: it merges a map (or in the second case, a map built from a seq of keys and values) with a map of defaults for a particular record type, providing the result to the map->Foo function that yields a Foo.
12:00	clgv	simard: you could say (def default-A (comp map->A (partial merge {:x 5})))
12:00	simard	hum ok makes sense
12:00	simard	so that map->Foo function, generated by defrecord, is that documented ?
12:01	cemerick	Right, I left clgv's addition as an exercise for the reader ;-)
12:01	simard	can't see anything about it in doc defrecord
12:01	cemerick	simard: mmm, no. http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-833 Feel free to vote that issue up. :-)
12:01	simard	:)
12:04	simard	cemerick: done
12:06	jaley	somebody help! :) I have '([1 2] [3 4]) and want to add [5 6] to the end, thus '([1 2] [3 4] [5 6]). cons, conj, into... what is it I'm looking for? :s
12:07	simard	(conj [[1 2] [3 4]] [5 6]) ?
12:08	jaley	simard: hmm ok, so I need to convert the list to a vector first?
12:09	clgv	jaley: you can use concat as in ##(concat '([1 2] [3 4]) '([5 6]))
12:09	lazybot	⇒ ([1 2] [3 4] [5 6])
12:09	simard	default-Aperture
12:09	simard	oops
12:10	jaley	clgv: oh ok, so that way around the vector i'm adding has to be wrapped in a list?
12:10	clgv	jaley: yes, for adding to the end you are using the wrong datatype
12:10	simard	jaley: which is why you should be using vectors all the way in this case
12:11	jaley	clgv: well... it's the return value from a map
12:12	clgv	jaley: maybe you restructure your algorithm so that you dont need to add to the end? otherwise use one of the above solutions
12:13	jaley	clgv: ok yeah that would make the code ugly... intuitively this is a list of [x y] coordinates and i'm just interpolating two points. so I guess I'll just convert to a vector of vectors and use conj
12:13	jaley	clgv and simard, thanks for the help
12:43	aartist	First time here. What is good about clojure?
12:44	bluezenix	what isnt?
12:44	bluezenix	;D gtg
12:45	technomancy	startup time, regexes, and the contains? function
12:45	technomancy	next question?
12:45	technomancy	=)
12:45	TimMc	haha
12:45	aartist	I am coming from Perl background. Please englighten me.
12:45	cark	why are you looking into clojure?
12:46	fdaoud	aartist: to be it's A) a great Lisp and B) that runs on the JVM.
12:46	cark	and it's fast
12:46	fdaoud	(of course combined that it has traction and a great community)
12:46	aartist	What it is used for in production? I know for example , that LISP is used in Emacs.
12:47	TimMc	aartist: http://clojure.org/ is the best place I know of to find out.
12:47	technomancy	in particular http://clojure.org/state or http://clojure.org/rationale
12:47	cark	i think people use it mostly on the server side
12:47	TimMc	right
12:47	cemerick	technomancy: regexes? 0.o No interpolation, you mean.
12:47	technomancy	cemerick: and the fact that they're not ifn?
12:48	TimMc	technomancy is trolling a bit
12:48	cemerick	technomancy: would their ifn find or match?
12:48	cemerick	(TimMc: yeah, I know :-)
12:48	cark	aartist: clojure is nothing like emacs lisp
12:49	TimMc	s/^/aartist: /
12:49	technomancy	cemerick: I don't particularly care as long as I can use it as a predicate
12:49	technomancy	75% of my regex uses are (re-find #"foo" ...)
12:50	cemerick	(partial re-find #"foo")?
12:50	cark	actually if you consider that the emacs language and clojure are both lisps, then you might say that lisp is only syntax. What's really interesting about clojure is semantics
12:51	TimMc	(def refinder [re] (partial re-find re))
12:51	TimMc	defn, rather
12:51	technomancy	cemerick: sure, but it's noise
12:51	cark	immutable data structures, reference data types, that's what make clojure what it is
12:51	TimMc	One more thing to worry about.
12:51	cark	and the jvm bit of course
12:52	cemerick	the jvm bit is incidental for many
12:52	TimMc	aartist: Akamai uses it for some sort of mobile web browsing compression proxy.
12:52	simard	is the hash of a map unique enough for general identification purpose ?
12:52	fdaoud	when you define a function that takes a collection, [coll] seems to be standard. what is the standard for a map? since "map" is already a function.
12:53	simard	say.. is it as good as md5 ?
12:53	fdaoud	cemerick: yes but also a plus for many others
12:53	cemerick	simard: don't expect it to be stable across clojure or jvm versions
12:53	cemerick	or, perhaps even clojure/jvm runtimes
12:53	cemerick	fdaoud: certainly for me, yes
12:54	TimMc	fdaoud: m
12:54	simard	cemerick: I don't need that much, as long as it's the same on the same runtime
12:54	fdaoud	TimMc: really? I was hoping for more than one character.
12:54	cemerick	simard: should be fine then; plan on collisions though, of course
12:54	TimMc	Look, some of us can only afford one character.
12:54	TimMc	we are the 99%
12:54	aartist	I am still looking for few examples of real-world apps.
12:55	fdaoud	aartist: are you interested in web apps?
12:55	dnolen	cemerick: chicken scheme? why not a Clojure language module for Racket?
12:55	cemerick	fdaoud: there's no harm in shadowing the map fn if (a) you're not using it, or (b) if you're happy enough using clojure.core/map
12:55	TimMc	aartist: Here's a raytracer I wrote for a HW assignment: https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-hw6
12:56	dnolen	aartist: why Clojure - you can do all the crazy Perl stuff and them some.
12:56	cemerick	dnolen: or whatever; chicken is the only scheme I've actually deployed to do real work, I know it compiles to C, and it's got gobs of libraries.
12:56	technomancy	clojurebot: clojure success stories?
12:56	cemerick	Racket or gambit may very well be a better "host"
12:56	clojurebot	Excuse me?
12:57	technomancy	clojurebot: clojure success stories is http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Clojure+Success+Stories
12:57	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
12:57	technomancy	aartist: plenty of material there ^^
12:57	aartist	I also like language for learning, but real-world app example will help. I got that you can use Java libs and that's great plus.
12:57	dnolen	aartist: or target JavaScript
12:58	dnolen	aartist: what kind of real-world app example
12:58	fdaoud	cemerick: thanks for the clarification.
13:00	aartist	dnolen: well, coming from Perl background, is there comparision between these 2?
13:00	dnolen	aartist: between what 2?
13:01	babilen	Is there any library that allows me to parse command line arguments and support subcommands? It looks as if I have to hack on tools.cli and incorporate some of leiningen's subcommand logic. But I wanted to ask first
13:01	dnolen	aartist: what do you use Perl for?
13:01	aartist	dnolen: I use Perl for many thing including Web Application, Data Parsing and Transformation.
13:02	dnolen	aartist: well you can do all that with Clojure.
13:02	aartist	Is there CPAN equivalent for Clojure?
13:02	mdeboard	Leiningen
13:02	dnolen	aartist: clojars and Maven
13:02	mdeboard	Clojars
13:02	technomancy	babilen: most of the subcommand stuff in lein is pretty ad-hoc. I'm interested in generalizing it in 2.0 but would welcome input on this
13:03	technomancy	maybe it could just be delegated to tools.cli
13:03	babilen	technomancy: I've seen it -- I am considering working on subcommand support for tools.cli -- Just started to develop some ideas and then 0.2.0 of it is released :)
13:04	babilen	technomancy: I like some aspects of it, but it is pretty ad-hoc. It would be nice to have good support for subcommands in tools.cli -- just wasn't sure if there isn't a suitable library available already.
13:04	aartist	Thank you guys/girls.
13:05	fdaoud	girls?
13:09	seancorfield	very exciting to see a second clojure conference on the calendar (esp. one right in my back yard)
13:10	TimMc	fdaoud: Women? In my channel? It's more likely than you think.
13:15	fdaoud	TimMc: in your channel?
13:16	TimMc	Mine, as in the one I am in.
13:17	TimMc	Do you know the meme I am referencing?
13:17	fdaoud	No, I don't know what that means.
13:17	fdaoud	all I'm saying is, there aren't (m)any women here.
13:19	TimMc	fdaoud: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/x-in-my-y
13:19	TimMc	fdaoud: That may or may not be true, but it's not a welcoming attitude either way.
13:20	fdaoud	TimMc: I understand what you're saying, but you misread me.
13:22	fdaoud	I was not saying it like that.
13:23	kephale	i know of women that come in here regularly that would probably stop coming if they were here and read those comments
13:24	fdaoud	kephale: what comments exactly?
13:25	kephale	the (m) on the any i think, so not comments plural
13:26	kephale	suggesting that there aren't many is probably acceptable due to the general demographics of CS/programmers these days
13:26	kephale	but you never know, lisps might be more seductive to the ladies
13:27	fdaoud	kephale: ok. so all I'm saying is that there are probably many more men than women here. that is all. I would certainly be glad to know I was wrong about that. How is that offensive?
13:29	kephale	well, just to put it to rest, i think the thing that might be taken offensively is the suggestion that there wouldn't be "any'" women here. what you just said doesn't sound offensive.
13:29	kephale	thats all
13:29	fdaoud	kephale: I agree, you're right. I should not have suggested "any".
13:30	kephale	heh, i can't blame you, i slip up as well
13:30	clojurebot	No entiendo
13:30	kephale	clojurebot: do you identify with a gender?
13:30	clojurebot	gender is irrelevant
13:31	fdaoud	kephale: you know what it is? I'm not used to the sheer number of people here. the other channel I frequent has 6-7 people -- so it is quite possible that they are all men.
13:31	fdaoud	so, my mistake. apologies.
13:33	TimMc	~clojurebot
13:33	clojurebot	clojurebot is amazing
13:33	TimMc	~clojurebot
13:33	clojurebot	clojurebot is a cold unfeeling genderless mechanism
13:33	TimMc	there we go
13:33	kephale	lol
13:33	gfredericks	and likes football.
13:35	fdaoud	,(repeatedly #(str "sorry for the misunderstanding"))
13:35	clojurebot	("sorry for the misunderstanding" "sorry for the misunderstanding" "sorry for the misunderstanding" "sorry for the misunderstanding" "sorry for the misunderstanding" ...)
13:35	ibdknox	lol
13:42	jweiss	anyone know how to get emacs to indent comments (eg, putting them at the end of the line and have the next line of the comment align with the first one)
13:42	jweiss	i read something about the meaning of ; vs ;; vs ;;; vs ;;;; but none seem to indent right
13:44	jweiss	durr... don't know why previous searches didn't turn this up: http://www.gnu.org/s/libtool/manual/emacs/Comment-Commands.html
13:50	TimMc	fdaoud: Wasn't trying to hammer on you, sorry if it came across that way. Yes, there is undoubtedly a large gender imbalance in CS, but I think it is best left unmentioned most of the time. (Obviously it is fine to discuss in the context of a discussion on trying to make the community more welcoming to women!)
13:51	fdaoud	TimMc: agree with you 100%.
13:52	TimMc	so... how 'bout them sexprs!
13:52	srid	can't gender imbalance in particular professions be naively explained away with difference in motivation (as opposed to ability)? that's what this guy argues for - http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
13:54	srid	nobody takes offense at the former, only at the later.
13:56	TimMc	Yes, I am definitely leaning in that direction recently. I've heard that women are (statistically) more drawn to professions and hobbies that have a social impact, so that programming-for-the-fun-of-it draws fewer women.
13:57	TimMc	But there's a third factor, which is cultural pressure -- a combination of social gender roles and how communities present themselves.
13:59	TimMc	Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are innate (statistical) differences in ability in various arenas, although I can't imagine they'd be too dramatic. Wrong political climate for that research, though.
14:01	chouser	TimMc: yup. I was about to say that just because people find something offensive doesn't prevent it from being true.
14:02	chouser	Though if there really were a statistical difference in ability, it would make me sad.
14:02	TimMc	Also, evolution hates us. :-P
14:03	jweiss	chouser: you mean inborn ability or actual
14:03	TimMc	Inborn, presumably.
14:03	chouser	hm, I guess I meant in-born, but either would be sad (though for different reasons)
14:03	jweiss	that would be pretty tough to prove
14:03	TimMc	Actual ability is affected by such silly and transient things as cultural context.
14:03	jweiss	yeah, that's what i was getting at
14:05	jweiss	i don't know that you can separate ability from interest
14:06	TimMc	Hard to measure.
14:06	chouser	I think interest (perhaps factored with personality) has more impact on actual ability in any intellectual area than just about anything else.
14:06	jweiss	i would agree
14:07	chouser	I factor in personality because I have three kids and various natural approach to failure is so different from each other.
14:07	gfredericks	I'm surprised that nobody has yet brought up the point that boys go to jupiter to get more stupider, while girls go to college to get more knowledge.
14:07	chouser	gfredericks: excellent point.
14:08	gfredericks	also something about waffles and spaghetti.
14:08	Raynes	I want spaghetti.
14:10	TimMc	(This would be a good time for me.panzoo/spaghetti to have an update pushed to clojars)
14:12	fdaoud	chouser: that's interesting, do you mean each of your three kids react differently to failure? if so, how so?
14:14	chouser	fdaoud: yes. We have one for whom even small failure is almost overwhelming emotionally. This one is maturing and learning to fight through hard things, but this is very difficult. Their favorite activities are ones where success and failure are more subjective.
14:15	jcromartie	oh boy, boys vs girls?
14:15	TimMc	jcromartie: Welcome to #genderstudies!
14:15	TimMc	It's my fault, basically.
14:16	chouser	Another also get frustrated with failure (they're all young still) but tends to rapidily re-attack the problem and persist either until success, or they become convinced it's not possible in which case they tend to totally detach.
14:17	jodaro	i have two boys
14:17	jodaro	one is totally persistent
14:17	jodaro	and the other gives up really easily
14:17	chouser	The third is still too young for me to reach conclusions, but may be more likely to dissemble than to either attack or avoid failure.
14:17	jodaro	pretty amazing how different they are
14:18	chouser	jodaro: that's been a big surprise for me.
14:18	chouser	before I had my own kids, I assumed at least half of what we call personality was "nurture". Now I'd say it's more like 10%
14:18	fdaoud	chouser, jodaro: I'm seeing the same kind of difference here. oldest daughter (4.5 y/o) when something doesn't go her way, stands up and starts whining and crying. youngest daughter (2.5 y/o) just plows forward and finds a way through.
14:18	TimMc	My psych prof said she was both distressed and relieved when she realized that her parenting had very little effect on her kid's personality.
14:18	jodaro	what's most fascinating is how similar they can be to each other, and by extension, to me in some ways
14:19	jodaro	and how different in other ways
14:19	jodaro	fdaoud: same with me. older one is way more of a whiner.
14:19	chouser	fdaoud: I think birth order may have a stronger correlation there than gender.
14:19	TimMc	true
14:19	chouser	ditto here
14:19	jweiss	chouser: my kid is very calm and relaxed, people try to give me credit, i assure them my parenting has nothing to do with it
14:19	fdaoud	yes, I think it's normal
14:20	TimMc	I wonder how much of that variation coudl also be due to random formative experiences.
14:20	fdaoud	second-born always had to compete
14:20	fdaoud	first-born had 2 years of "it's all me"
14:20	jodaro	right, same here
14:20	jweiss	i was gonna ask about birth order (since i only have 1) - would assume the first born is accustomed to everything going his way
14:20	jodaro	"its all me and i can do no wrong and everyone loves me the best"
14:20	jodaro	jweiss: i think thats often the case
14:21	jodaro	but i do have some friends that have somewhat the opposite situation
14:21	jodaro	though of course its the usual parenting "science": anecdotal evidence
14:21	TimMc	jodaro: Only child here. I actually have a bit of fear-of-failure perhaps because I was used to everything going my way.
14:21	fdaoud	"with 3 kids, often what happens is first-born and baby get all the attention, middle child is ignored. I have 3 kids. I am determined not to do that to little..what's-her-name."
14:21	jodaro	TimMc: i'm an only as well.
14:22	jodaro	played by myself a lot
14:22	jodaro	my boys play together all the time
14:22	TimMc	yup
14:22	jodaro	which is great
14:22	ibdknox	I'm a bit unique in that I have a brother, but our age gap is 7 years
14:22	TimMc	bruncle!
14:22	ibdknox	haha
14:22	jodaro	but sometimes i think its at the expense of knowing how to have fun without expecting someone else to help
14:23	ibdknox	I was fiercely independent as a child, never really whined
14:23	ibdknox	my brother on the other hand, ended up with a massive inferiority complex
14:23	fdaoud	some days they play together beautifully, it's so awesome, other days they can't be 2 minutes together without screaming and fighting
14:23	ibdknox	and is prone to give up very quickly
14:23	jodaro	fdaoud: totally.
14:24	TimMc	ibdknox: Oh, you're the older one?
14:24	ibdknox	TimMc: yeah
14:24	jodaro	ibdknox: did you get to/have to babysit a lot?
14:24	chouser	yet first children are the ones who end up as presidents, ceos, etc. [I am not a first child]
14:24	ibdknox	so a bit opposite of the general trend we've discussed
14:25	fdaoud	jodaro: how old are your boys?
14:25	srid	chouser: fdaoud you attribute only 10% to nurture? wait till they grow up and get acculturated to an extent so remarkable that cultural conditioning takes over the stage, so to speak. :)
14:25	jodaro	8 and 11
14:25	ibdknox	jodaro: yeah, I essentially did a lot of the raising. My parents got divorced when he was about 4
14:25	chouser	srid: Hm, interesting.
14:25	jodaro	3rd and 6th grade
14:25	fdaoud	srid: ?
14:26	jodaro	speaking of parenting, i had a shitty parenting morning
14:26	jodaro	wife leaves early for work on some days so its all me
14:26	jodaro	they pissed me off to no end today
14:26	fdaoud	the boys give you trouble?
14:26	srid	and perhaps that's why some parents are interested in school-at-home
14:27	jodaro	i finally blew up and gave them the old "i do everything for you and still you don't listen!"
14:27	fdaoud	and you thought you'd never say that ;)
14:27	jodaro	no "screen time" tonight
14:27	jodaro	yeah heh
14:27	jodaro	they've both been really into a couple games on the ipad
14:27	jodaro	so that hits em where it hurts
14:27	jodaro	but
14:28	fdaoud	jodaro: each age has its stage, right? I'm still at the stage where I wish we could have dinner without constantly worrying about the 2-year-old falling off her chair and breaking her face
14:28	jodaro	i can't help but feel like a dick afterwards
14:28	jodaro	fdaoud: hahah yeah
14:28	jodaro	they are both way more independent now (usually) with that kind of thing
14:28	jodaro	it gets easier in some areas and then harder in others
14:28	jodaro	older one just started middle school
14:28	jodaro	which is a whole new world
14:29	jodaro	in that he has to be on top of his shit or else
14:29	fdaoud	yeah, I am fully aware that one thing less to worry about will be replaced by another
14:29	jodaro	but the flip side is that he can walk around the neighborhood by himself, go to a friends house, walk up to the store
14:30	jodaro	make a snack (and periodically do it without making a huge mess)
14:30	fdaoud	I just hope that my thinking that My Life Will Be Better Once They Sleep Through The Night is correct
14:30	jodaro	fdaoud: i'd say yes.
14:30	fdaoud	jodaro: I think everything else falls apart from the lack of sleep
14:30	jodaro	my older one is a voracious reader
14:31	jodaro	which helps a lot
14:31	srid	fantasy fiction?
14:31	jodaro	hah of course
14:31	fdaoud	they have less ability (i.e. are clumsy, fall down, get hurt), we have less patience, it's all bad when we don't sleep
14:32	Squee-D	antares_ would you have (resources on/examples of) a complete reactive program using rabbit? I'm looking to shortcut understanding agents and threading to hack an existing example to show off and work back from.
14:32	Squee-D	fdaoud you talking toddlers?
14:33	chouser	fdaoud: yes. The lack of sleep gets better, and that can make a huge difference in all areas of life. :-)
14:33	mtm_	is there an idiomatic way to find out a symbol has been bound in a namespace? I can see if it's been interned, but I don't see an obvious way to see if it's bound.
14:33	chouser	(doc bound?)
14:33	clojurebot	"([& vars]); Returns true if all of the vars provided as arguments have any bound value, root or thread-local. Implies that deref'ing the provided vars will succeed. Returns true if no vars are provided."
14:34	mtm_	:P
14:34	mtm_	how obvious
14:34	Squee-D	I learned to work with less sleep, and how to powernap.
14:34	chouser	:-) It was new in version 1.2
14:34	chouser	mtm_: no worries.
14:35	fdaoud	Squee-D: yes, 4.5 and 2.5 y/o
14:35	jodaro	i remember how hard those years were
14:36	jodaro	but i rememebr how awesome they were too
14:36	Squee-D	fdaoud i decided i don't want to hate it, so i learnt to call it normal. I know NLP is a soft science, but convincing yourself not to get hung up on sleeplessness did help me
14:36	jodaro	enjoy it while it lasts </old man>
14:37	fdaoud	Squee-D: you're right. it's just normal now and the occasional uninterrupted night is A Real Treat.
14:37	Squee-D	my girl 'sleeps through' now. that is i only have to get up 3 times a night most nights, just to reassure her, let her go potty, etc.
14:37	Squee-D	fdaoud totally :D
14:37	fdaoud	my wife and I laugh about when we didn't have kids and we'd get up at 9:58 on saturdays only because there was a show on at 10:00 that we liked to watch while eating our cereal.
14:38	Squee-D	fdaoud I love when she goes to nannas and me and the missus and I are left alone.. but when she comes home i wonder why i needed it. s wierd
14:38	fdaoud	now we're up and at 'em at 6:30
14:38	Squee-D	I'm a latecomer, and my wife and I are both debauched, deviant and hedonists.
14:38	Squee-D	we lauch at absolutely every change in our lives :D
14:39	fdaoud	Squee-D: totally! sometimes they drive us nuts but when they're not here, we miss them
14:39	Squee-D	6:30.. dude 6:00 am is a sleep in for me :(
14:39	Squee-D	laugh*
14:39	fdaoud	what time do they go to bed?
14:39	Squee-D	used to be 7:pm
14:39	antares_	Squee-D: using langohr, you mean?
14:39	Squee-D	but with daylight savings, hard to get her to sleep before 8:30
14:39	fdaoud	yeah 9:30pm here, so it's just moved over ;)
14:39	Squee-D	antares_ sure
14:40	Squee-D	Oh i wake up for work
14:40	antares_	Squee-D: yes, I want to put together an example. I am working on doc sites for two other projects (one of them is a Clojure library) at the moment so I don't know yet when that may happen.
14:40	fdaoud	Squee-D: I was talking weekends
14:40	Squee-D	fdaoud i sneak out of the house in the morning to miss traffic, means i leave for home earlier too
14:40	Squee-D	fdaoud oh yeah fair, i get to about 6:30 too
14:41	fdaoud	sure in the week we're up early even before we had kids
14:41	fdaoud	but we took it easy on the weekends
14:41	seancorfield	those are early mornings... i'm rarely up before 9am (but then i'm in california!)...
14:41	Squee-D	antares_ is there anything you can feed me from your own usage that wont break disclosure?
14:41	Squee-D	seancorfield i used to be an LD for dance parties and clubs :D
14:42	Squee-D	Its so strange to be "normal", it's like being a wierdo all over again
14:42	Squee-D	but i'm amazed at how awesome having a kid is.
14:42	clojurebot	excusez-moi
14:45	fdaoud	I was sad the day the little one stopped saying "oh gin" and started saying "orange" :_(
14:47	seancorfield	heh, my wife & i made the decision early on to not have kids but we have lots of cats instead (no college fund, you can lock them up if they're naughty, etc :) )
14:47	seancorfield	,(clojure-version)
14:47	clojurebot	"1.3.0"
14:47	seancorfield	ah, good, the bot got an upgrade
14:47	Squee-D	fdaoud i get in trouble when i try to improve my girls language :D
14:47	seancorfield	,(doc realized?)
14:47	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if a value has been produced for a promise, delay, future or lazy sequence."
14:48	fdaoud	Squee-D: I did everything to prevent it! ;)
14:48	fdaoud	it was so adorable, I didn't want it to end
14:48	Squee-D	yeah my wifes like that :D
14:49	fdaoud	Squee-D: but now I have to be more careful of what I say. apparently my 4-year-old said to the teacher, "which part of 'no' don't you understand?"
14:49	ibdknox	lol
14:49	jodaro	hahah nice one
14:50	tolstoy	Can you include clojure code (clj-http.client, for instance), when running in script mode? (use '[clj-http.client :as http]) gets me some sort of not found error even though I have the lib on the class path.
14:51	tolstoy	Seems like the script can't find clojure code in the jar file.
14:51	tolstoy	Oh, wait.
14:52	tolstoy	Hm. Still broken even when jars are absolute pathed.
14:52	amalloy	tolstoy: i don't think "script mode" is a thing that exists
14:52	ibdknox	woah
14:53	ibdknox	look who it is
14:53	Raynes	You can't run it in skynet mode either, fyi.
14:53	ibdknox	Raynes: damnit.
14:53	tolstoy	clj file.clj
14:53	ibdknox	amalloy: Raynes told me you were in a bridge tournament? How'd it go?
14:53	tolstoy	I guess I probably have the whole terminology off base. I'll start reading and ask again if things don't get cleared up. Sorry!
14:54	Raynes	That's a random Clojure startup script that doesn't have anything to do with Clojure itself officially and will only put Clojure on the classpath. You'll want to use Leiningen or cake.
14:54	amalloy	ibdknox: he was just guessing, actually. non-bridge vacation, for a change
14:55	TallAdam	hi guys - I'm having trouble getting 'eldoc' to work with cocoa-emacs 24. it works fine for .el files, but not for .clj files (in fact, it suggests lisp eldocs for stuff like 'assoc', where there is a definition in both CL and Clojure). Has anyone else had this problem?
14:55	technomancy	at the conj can we round up all the clojure rabbitmq authors in a room and have them duke it out until there's only one standing?
14:55	ibdknox	amalloy: ah, well welcome back :)
14:55	Raynes	amalloy: That was what ninjudd told me.
14:55	Raynes	But he wasn't sure either.
14:55	amalloy	thanks! good to be back
14:55	Raynes	Said "probably a bridge tournament".
14:55	tolstoy	Raynes: Thanks. I just have a test script to get some stuff right, but I do indeed use leiningen most of the time. I think I just have some path issues.
14:56	Raynes	Definitely path issues.
14:57	TallAdam	anyone? :)
14:58	TallAdam	I have moved off Aquamacs as its too flaky and I'm sick of stuff not working
14:58	antares_	technomancy: not sure if I should wipe out my recent, well maintained RabbitMQ client from github after hearing this ;)
14:58	technomancy	antares_: depends. is it the best? =)
14:59	ibdknox	mine is totally the best. goes to create a new repo
14:59	ibdknox	:p
14:59	technomancy	ibdknox: zero bugs!
14:59	antares_	technomancy: to me of course it is :)
14:59	ibdknox	technomancy: absolutely none. Who else can claim that
14:59	technomancy	antares_: maybe some kind of "Here's what makes it different" in the readme would help?
14:59	tolstoy	technomancy: That would be awesome! RabbitMQ needs some help….
15:00	gfredericks	I'm getting an "attempting to call unbound fn" error when my java calls my clojure class, but I can't see why any NS wouldn't be loaded...
15:00	gfredericks	is there some other cause for that error?
15:00	antares_	technomancy: one nice thing about https://github.com/michaelklishin/langohr is that it has 3 years of experience using & now maintaining Ruby amqp gem mixed with 2 years of experience with the Java driver
15:00	amalloy	gfredericks: you have to load the namespaces manually
15:00	gfredericks	amalloy: I added a (require 'the-ns-my-class-is-defined-in) to the beginning of the method
15:01	antares_	technomancy: and the README mentions that, for sure. We are working on the doc site now before releasing 1.0. Unfortunately, travis-ci.org eats most of my spare time these days.
15:01	gfredericks	amalloy: the var causing the error is only called indirectly; are you suggesting I need to require every single ns in my project manually?
15:01	technomancy	antares_: that's cool; I hadn't read the readme actually, sorry.
15:02	antares_	technomancy: I do not actively "market" it yet because there is next to no documentation, so that's expected that you never heard of it ;)
15:02	technomancy	some of the other ones give a "we wrote this because we didn't realize any other ones existed" impression
15:02	amalloy	gfredericks: you should only need to require the top one, which requires the others
15:02	gfredericks	amalloy: it's weird because this has generally been working; I thought I was familiar with this setup.
15:03	antares_	technomancy: sure, that's why when we started using Clojure very actively first thing I did was writing Langohr.
15:04	gfredericks	also I'm supposed to demo this stuff in 3 minutes and it looks like it's not going to work :(
15:04	amalloy	ouch. maybe there's some general RT.startLoadingStuff()?
15:04	amalloy	i'm not familiar with it myself
15:04	technomancy	antares_: any reason in particular you're not targeting 1.2 compatibility?
15:04	antares_	technomancy: so, if RabbitMQ clients question does come up and the Conj, feel free to mention Langohr. I won't be at the conj so someone has to do it for me :)
15:05	antares_	technomancy: no, no real reason. I won't mind working on 1.2 compatibility in the future.
15:05	technomancy	ok, just curious
15:05	antares_	I guess instead of numerics everything should work on 1.2
15:05	technomancy	would you mind if I submitted a patch to use a RABBITMQ_URL environment variable by default if it's set?
15:06	antares_	technomancy: sure. You would need to add URI parsing for that, I was going to do that, too.
15:06	simard	I'm looking for an into function that would return a map even if the first argument is nil.. say.. (into (:a {:a 1}) {:b 2}) => {:a 1, :b 2} AND (into (:a {:b 1}) {:b 2}) => {:b 2}
15:06	technomancy	yeah, it's pretty easy. I'll put together a pull request
15:06	antares_	technomancy: amqp gem supports both options & amqp:// URIs, I feel langohr should, too
15:06	technomancy	I just added the same thing to java.jdbc
15:06	antares_	technomancy: thanks!
15:07	technomancy	after lunch maybe
15:07	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading
15:10	seancorfield	technomancy: i applied your patch for jdbc-22 which was defaulting the driver class name based on the subprotocol but i don't remember a patch for accepting a full URI?
15:11	seancorfield	oh, my bad, you have submitted a patch... sorry
15:12	seancorfield	jira hadn't notified me of the follow-ups since you'd said to hold off on the patch
15:13	antares_	seancorfield: hi. A quick java.jdbc question: what's the best way to convert a result set row into a map? (I know they can be used as maps but I need to serialize it)
15:13	cgray	in clojurescript, does a javascript object become a clojure map? (i.e., can i get the property bar in object foo by saying (foo :bar)?)
15:14	seancorfield	antares_: they are maps now (in 0.1.0)
15:14	seancorfield	i removed the dependency on struct recently
15:15	antares_	seancorfield: ah, that's why they can be used as maps. Thank you! and thanks for picking up clj-time maintenance.
15:15	seancorfield	technomancy: that patch has a lot of changes in it... :)
15:15	seancorfield	antares_: heh, another library i needed at world singles so it made sense to take it over from mark et al
15:22	amalloy	simard: merge
15:22	amalloy	&(merge nil {:a 1 :b 2})
15:22	lazybot	⇒ {:b 2, :a 1}
15:22	amalloy	&(merge {:b 5} {:a 1 :b 2})
15:22	lazybot	⇒ {:a 1, :b 2}
15:22	simard	amalloy: thank you
15:29	seancorfield	technomancy: patch applied... once it passes the matrix test i'll cut 0.1.1
15:47	ibdknox	Hey folks, I am officially releasing 0.2.0 of Korma today: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3188609
15:48	ibdknox	Project website here: http://sqlkorma.com
15:51	jcrossley3	technomancy: do i have any degree of control over the contents of the pom.xml leiningen creates?
15:51	seancorfield	0.1.1 of clojure.java.jdbc is heading to maven central - thanx technomancy
15:52	amalloy	jcrossley3: an unhelpful aside: you can influence the pom.xml by changing what your dependencies are :P
15:53	jcrossley3	amalloy: yes, unthanks for that, indeed. :)
15:53	jcrossley3	in fact, i'd prefer to manage those deps in project.clj, but would still require certain elements in the pom for other maven plugins.
15:54	jcrossley3	just wondered if there was any merging capability
15:55	Squee-D	is there an obvious link between noir and korma? sites look a bit the same
15:55	brehaut	Squee-D: same creator?
15:55	Squee-D	no dude, i said OBVIOUS
15:56	ibdknox	haha
15:57	brehaut	and what do you mean 'look a bit the same' ones gill sans, the other is helvetica!
15:57	ibdknox	yeah dude
15:57	ibdknox	totally different
15:57	ibdknox	I actually intentionally made them mostly the same
15:57	Squee-D	dunno how i missed that
15:57	ibdknox	that layout seemed to work well for this kind of stuff
15:57	ibdknox	obvious code examples, a little text
15:58	Squee-D	yeah im pinching it
15:59	Squee-D	i love the curry colors
15:59	Squee-D	needs a favicon
15:59	ibdknox	figured I'd do warm this time
15:59	ibdknox	oh damn
15:59	ibdknox	forgot that
16:05	chouser	ibdknox: why {:email [like "foo"]} instead of (like :email "foo")?
16:05	ibdknox	you can do either :)
16:06	chouser	ah, ok.
16:07	chouser	multiple where's are anded?
16:07	ibdknox	yessir
16:07	Bronsa	cool
16:07	hiredman	ibdknox: looks interesting
16:08	ibdknox	hiredman: :)
16:08	Squee-D	Looks like a very elegant dsl
16:08	Squee-D	I'm a fan of Arel in ruby.
16:08	chouser	ibdknox: why . instead of / for :account.name ?
16:09	Squee-D	how long does the first index of repo1 usually take?
16:09	Squee-D	My internet connection isnt hot (im in NZ) but its been going for 5 minutes now
16:09	ibdknox	chouser: I wanted to keep those closer to SQL, though there's no strong reasoning either way for me
16:10	brehaut	Squee-D: what part of NZ?
16:10	Squee-D	akl
16:10	chouser	ibdknox: fair enough
16:11	Squee-D	brehaut sorry i said that assuming you were local. Auckland
16:11	brehaut	Squee-D: i am; im in the tron
16:11	Squee-D	the hell is a clojurian doing in hamilton?
16:12	brehaut	what the hell kind of question is that :P
16:12	technomancy	jcrossley3: there's not much in there yet, but I wouldn't rule it out as a future feature
16:12	Squee-D	i didnt think there were enough brain cells in the whole town
16:12	chouser	ibdknox: looks interesting. Hope I have a chance to try it out.
16:12	Squee-D	do perhaps borrow them from aucklanders that are passing through?
16:12	Squee-D	:P
16:13	brehaut	ive never heard of an aucklander going south of the bombays
16:13	ibdknox	chouser: if you do, I'd love to hear feedback.. I'm sure there are issues in there still
16:13	Squee-D	brehaut well no point is there? really..
16:14	Squee-D	What i really meant, is, how do you remain gainfully employed?
16:14	technomancy	seancorfield: thanks for cutting that release; lookin' good.
16:15	brehaut	Squee-D: i build websites for a design firm in chch
16:15	Squee-D	oh aye. with which tech platforms, typically?
16:16	technomancy	ibdknox: korma looks great, except for the indentation of -> forms in the samples. =P
16:16	ibdknox	technomancy: blame vimclojure :p
16:16	brehaut	Squee-D: Python/Django
16:16	Squee-D	oh thats right i remember you bitching about python yesterday
16:16	Squee-D	;)
16:16	brehaut	hah
16:17	PPaul	hello guys. i'm having problems with my multimethod https://gist.github.com/1334752
16:17	brehaut	i prefer 'offering unwanted critique'
16:17	PPaul	i can't use (swank.core/break) in it for some reason
16:17	Squee-D	i'm principal here: http://www.vworkapp.com/
16:21	technomancy	ndimiduk: what are the haps?
16:21	Squee-D	ok so lein search is hung on getting the index. can i get it manually somehow?
16:22	ndimiduk	@technomancy heya!
16:22	jodaro	Squee-D: your main office is right near me in sf
16:22	jodaro	well
16:22	jodaro	a few blocks
16:22	Squee-D	main office :D Thats how we look more american in America
16:23	jodaro	oh sorry
16:23	Squee-D	All good
16:23	jodaro	i meant us office.
16:23	jodaro	thought i read "hq" somewhere
16:23	Squee-D	yes, thats how we advertise it :D
16:23	PPaul	anyone can help me with my multi method?
16:23	PPaul	https://gist.github.com/1334752
16:23	jodaro	just says north american office
16:23	Squee-D	the substance of the team is in NZ tho.
16:23	jodaro	my bad
16:24	jodaro	how american of me!
16:24	Squee-D	:D
16:24	zerokarmaleft	but now we know the truth...muahaha
16:24	PPaul	how do i reinitalize a defmulti? (for developing)
16:24	Squee-D	its ok, you're allowed ot be that way, until the country sinks into an econimic rut so deep it makes the great depressions look good.
16:24	jodaro	yeah
16:24	Squee-D	depression*
16:25	jodaro	then i'll be on the first plane to NZ
16:25	jcromartie	hm, interesting... Korma looks similar to ClojureQL
16:25	jcromartie	but... nicer
16:25	jcromartie	:)
16:26	brehaut	jcromartie: my hope is less magical :)
16:26	Squee-D	lein repl says i should install rlwrap for optimum experience, no such clojure project.. is this some Java thing?
16:26	jcromartie	brehaut: are you ibdknox too?
16:26	simard	is it possible that in this: (binding [my-var (some-stuff)] [(more stuff) my-var]), (more stuff) doesn't get to see the new value of my-var ?
16:26	jcromartie	or are you saying you have hopes as a user
16:26	technomancy	Squee-D: rlwrap is a C program
16:27	brehaut	jcromartie: lol. no
16:27	Squee-D	oh so probably in brew :D
16:27	technomancy	yup
16:27	Squee-D	ta
16:27	ibdknox	jcromartie: I'm the only real ibdknox ;)
16:28	Squee-D	I don't fear magic. so long as magic is implemented idiomattically..
16:29	Squee-D	"rational magic"
16:30	brehaut	Squee-D: well, clojureql is a relational algebra -> sql compiler. its a bit more idealised than sql and doesnt really have a 1:1 mapping. hence, it can seem a bit magical and surprising
16:31	ibdknox	yeah I replied to a comment talking about clojureql
16:31	ibdknox	my problem is that I think it's the wrong abstraction and that as a result it produces pretty inefficient sql
16:32	technomancy	korma doesn't do schema manipulation yet, does it?
16:32	ibdknox	technomancy: not yet
16:32	technomancy	planned?
16:32	tolstoy	Have any of you had problems with memory leaks when you create and discard a lot of java.nio.ByteBuffers?
16:32	ibdknox	I think it should probably happen, but I'm SQL'd out for the moment
16:32	ibdknox	lol
16:33	technomancy	hah; understandable
16:33	technomancy	the lack of that was one of my main pain points in my experimental port of clojars to postgres.
16:33	ibdknox	technomancy: yeah, I don't think it'll be too bad to add in
16:33	Squee-D	imho, Korma is clearly better than clojureql for two specific, undeniable reasons. 1. the website, 2. the name
16:33	brehaut	science
16:34	ibdknox	I mean, you can't argue with science
16:34	Squee-D	it works, bitches.
16:35	Squee-D	http://xkcd.com/54/
16:37	jcromartie	technomancy: do you mean like migrations?
16:37	technomancy	jcromartie: yeah
16:41	PPaul	how do i reset my defmulti?
16:41	PPaul	or multimethod?
16:43	Squee-D	PPaul i'd tell you, but I can't
16:43	PPaul	hmmm
16:43	brehaut	PPaul: ns-unmap
16:43	PPaul	great!
16:44	PPaul	hmmm
16:45	PPaul	i tried that with my namespace, and with my multimethod, i get errors in both cases
16:45	brehaut	are you quoting syms?
16:45	PPaul	no
16:45	brehaut	eg (ns-unmap 'user 'mymulti)
16:45	PPaul	i did that, though
16:45	PPaul	i'll try again
16:46	brehaut	well, use whatever namespace your multi is defined in, if its not user, dont specify user
16:46	PPaul	oh, i need to pass the ns and multimethod...
16:46	technomancy	I think migrations would be worse than general SQL operations simply because individual databases vary a lot more in that regard.
16:46	brehaut	technomancy: for some reason i recall seancorfield talking about supporting migrations in future clojure.jdbc release?
16:47	ibdknox	I would love not to have to write that from scratch
16:47	technomancy	huh... well the two of them should definitely coordinate on that
16:47	ibdknox	lol
16:47	technomancy	there is also lobos, but I haven't looked at that
16:47	brehaut	i could be miles of base on that ;)
16:48	technomancy	brehaut: is that a kiwi idiom? =)
16:48	ibdknox	lol
16:48	brehaut	s/of/off/ ; geez
16:48	technomancy	heh... for some reason it made me think of Ace of Base.
16:48	brehaut	and for that im truly sorry
16:48	ibdknox	technomancy: doesn't everything?
16:48	ibdknox	lol
16:48	ejackson	ibdknox: I like your korma stuff :)
16:49	technomancy	tried to think if the lead singer was named Miles or something
16:49	ibdknox	ejackson: :)
16:49	ejackson	I've been working quietly on something similar, atop clojureQL to deal with the joins, ala has-many, belongs-to etc: https://github.com/ejackson/relation
16:49	PPaul	thanks a lot
16:49	ejackson	its not ready for public consumption, but it'd be interesting to compare notes
16:51	brehaut	theres always someone on HN with 'whats wrong with writing raw SQL like a real man. you kids and your toys should get off my lawn' on threads about libs like korma
16:51	ejackson	the main idea is to maintain a hierarchy (using clojure's hierarchy functions) of the relationship between the tables, so that you can do longwinded and complicated joins and it figure out the correct SQL
16:51	ibdknox	brehaut: yeah, I always think that's funny
16:51	ibdknox	I've written tons of raw sql
16:51	ibdknox	it blows
16:52	brehaut	yes
16:52	brehaut	and i understand that thats a technical term
16:53	ejackson	its a term the technical have to deal with frequently, that's for sure :)
16:53	scottj	brehaut: I was about to post your exact quote for fun but searched first and saw jwr's already there :)
16:53	brehaut	lol
16:53	brehaut	thats what i was referring too ;)
16:57	jkkramer	ibdknox: does korma handle many-to-many relationships?
16:58	ibdknox	jkkramer: not explicitly, though you can do the joins yourself. The next version will to it as just another relationship
17:01	jkkramer	ibdknox: gotcha. seems you'll need a special syntax, or support for forward declarations, given clojure's top-to-bottom compilation
17:01	ibdknox	jkkramer: hm? queries are just a map with parts added to them
17:01	ibdknox	jkkramer: you can add the parts however and whenever you want
17:02	jkkramer	ibdknox: i mean as part of of the defentity: (defentity foo (has-many ??)) (defentity bar (has-many foo))
17:02	ibdknox	ah
17:02	ibdknox	indeed
17:02	ibdknox	there are a few reasons why I didn't do has-manys this go around
17:03	Squee-D	you can declare a symbol for later definition no?
17:04	technomancy	Squee-D: yep, declare
17:04	brehaut	surprisingly enough, with the declare macro
17:04	Squee-D	so would that be so bad?
17:05	Squee-D	i get that the beuty of a dsl is that you design it so the dev doesnt have to think it, but thats not so bad
17:05	jkkramer	Squee-D: depending on how defentity is implemented, it may depend on the value of the related entity's var
17:05	Squee-D	oic because its a macro not a fn?
17:06	Squee-D	because the fn wouldnt run till it runs.. right?
17:06	Squee-D	i mean that's what i was basing my ignorance on :P
17:07	ejackson	ibdknox: you must really not have liked clojureQL to go to the effort to replace it !
17:07	seancorfield	brehaut: don't think it was me talking about migrations... at least, not as part of c.j.jdbc
17:07	jkkramer	i haven't looked at the implementation, so not sure
17:07	brehaut	seancorfield: aight, sorry about that then
17:08	seancorfield	at world singles, we write migrations in sql and apply them as part of our build so maybe that was the connection?
17:08	brehaut	seancorfield: it could well have been
17:08	ibdknox	ejackson: I don't like the abstraction, it's a cool idea, but it doesn't map correctly for me. It also generates queries that I would never write
17:08	ejackson	it would be great to use lobos to figure out the schema to generate the has-manys and the belongs-tos. Fever dreams.
17:09	jkkramer	ibdknox: I'm not enamored with clojuresql's abstractions either. looking forward to seeing how korma develops
17:09	ejackson	ibdknox: yeah, I've had at least a few odd queries come out of it, that's for sure.
17:09	seancorfield	ibdknox: is there stuff that c.j.jdbc could do for you to make korma easier to develop / use?
17:10	ibdknox	seancorfield: I'm somewhat confused by returning things
17:10	ibdknox	seancorfield: I was going to talk to you about it tomorrow
17:11	seancorfield	sure!
17:11	seancorfield	in amongst all the emacs goodness :)
17:11	dnolen	oof, ibdknox kora site is down
17:11	ibdknox	haha indeed
17:12	dnolen	korma i mean.
17:12	ibdknox	dnolen: try again?
17:12	dnolen	ibdknox: nice
17:13	ibdknox	I think it might be time to get off this micro instance :p
17:13	brehaut	ibdknox: what web server are you running?
17:13	ibdknox	jetty
17:14	brehaut	no gateway server?
17:14	technomancy	ibdknox: for a static site?
17:14	ibdknox	ah sorry
17:14	ibdknox	nginx in front of it
17:14	ibdknox	I didn't set it up to cache though, which was dumb
17:14	brehaut	you should be able to handle HN with a static sight and nginx on a wrist watch
17:14	ibdknox	yeah, easily
17:14	brehaut	ah, thats a mistake
17:14	brehaut	site
17:15	brehaut	i suck at english. sorry
17:15	ibdknox	me too, it's ok
17:15	ibdknox	:)
17:26	ejackson	what's all this ->R thing on twitter right now ? I seem to have missed the origin.
17:26	amalloy	ejackson: clojure 1.3
17:27	amalloy	defrecord creates constructor functions now
17:27	ejackson	oh nice
17:27	ejackson	thanks
17:34	cemerick	ejackson: yeah, few know about it, unfortunately
17:34	ejackson	where is it tucked away ?
17:37	ejackson	searching ->R and record constructor in google, jira and github have not helped me sniff
17:37	cemerick	ejackson: ->Foo and map->Foo are two factory functions implicitly defined by defrecord and deftype
17:38	cemerick	very undocumented
17:38	ejackson	aaaaaaah, the R is a placeholder :)
17:38	ejackson	facepalm
17:38	ibdknox	oooo map->Foo?
17:38	cemerick	ejackson: or, relatively undocumented: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/defrecord+improvements
17:39	ejackson	thanks cemerick
17:39	ibdknox	finally
17:39	cemerick	ibdknox: you didn't know about this either?
17:39	ibdknox	cemerick: not at all
17:39	ibdknox	and I've wanted it
17:39	cemerick	ibdknox, ejackson: vote it up / comment: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-833
17:40	cemerick	As soon as I saw "self-documenting" in conjunction with that feature, I knew this would happen. :-/
17:40	ejackson	I''m not a registered voice yet.... any day now :)
17:40	ibdknox	cemerick: done
17:41	cemerick	ejackson: you can sign up for jira and watch/vote without having a CA in IIRC
17:41	ejackson	right you are, ok, I'm going to shut up now, its seems to be the only way to avoid saying stupid things.
17:43	brehaut	self-documenting \n noun \| selvz ˈdäkyəməntING \| The developer knows what a piece of code means at the time he or she wrote it.
17:43	ibdknox	(inc brehaut)
17:43	lazybot	⇒ 6
17:43	cemerick	brehaut: fess up, you used a tool for that ;-)
17:44	brehaut	cemerick: i copied and pasted a bunch of stuff from the builtin dictionary on the mac ;)
17:44	ibdknox	WOAH now, you're using computers to help you do things?
17:44	ibdknox	(dec brehaut)
17:44	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:44	cemerick	lol
17:44	brehaut	lol
17:44	cemerick	brehaut: right, one of my favorite tools. So sad it only works in cocoa apps.
17:45	brehaut	yeah :(
17:45	brehaut	in this particular case i used the dashboard widget
17:46	cemerick	I gave up on the dashboard years ago.
17:47	brehaut	i mostly have too. mine is just full of sticky notes and the dictionary :P
18:11	srid	korma.db has no sqlite yet?
18:11	ibdknox	I didn't write a little helper for it, but it works just fine if you supply the normal jdbc map
18:12	srid	ok, its only a macro. and i can retain my existing db map
18:13	ibdknox	yeah (postgres) and all those are just helpers for those maps
18:14	srid	in the examples, `db` is not used anywhere.
18:14	srid	with clojureql, I use `open-global`. for korma?
18:14	ibdknox	the text explains that defdb sets it as the default connection
18:15	ibdknox	you can then tell entities to use specific ones
18:15	srid	ah, defdb
18:15	ibdknox	since it's a pool, there's no need to handle individual connections
18:15	srid	ibdknox: in my project, db's :subname is a function. to be invoked later, when the path to sqlite file will be know.
18:15	srid	defdb won't work with this data, would it?
18:16	ibdknox	it's a delay
18:16	srid	{:subname #(get-sqlite-path %)} ;; something like that
18:17	ibdknox	no I guess
18:17	ibdknox	not
18:17	ibdknox	you can always just create it later and set it:
18:17	srid	using defdb? ok
18:17	ibdknox	or creating a connection and using: http://sqlkorma.com/api/0.2.0/korma.db-api.html#korma.db/default-spec
18:18	ibdknox	(defualt-spec (delay-pool my-spec))
18:18	ibdknox	that's all defdb does basically
18:19	lancepantz	does anyone know if there is a maven repo that snapshot builds from http://build.clojure.org/ are pushed to?
18:19	mabes	ibdknox: do you use korma to manage DB migrations or another tool (e.g. lobos)?
18:20	ibdknox	mabes: I haven't done any migration stuff yet at all with Korma
18:20	lancepantz	i'm trying to use [org.clojure/data.priority-map "0.0.2-SNAPSHOT"] as a dependency, but neither lein nor cake resolve it
18:20	ibdknox	mabes: since we used to be built on django, we're still using python to handle schema changes
18:20	ibdknox	that's likely to be something coming in the future though
18:20	mabes	ibdknox: ah, makes sense
18:21	mabes	ibdknox: I haven't needed migrations in clojure yet either, but last time I took a survey lobos seemed the best: https://github.com/budu/lobos
18:21	brehaut	ibdknox: south in particular?
18:21	ibdknox	brehaut: yep
18:22	lancepantz	we have a project we are working on for migrations at work https://github.com/flatland/sqleton
18:22	ibdknox	mabes: yeah, I wonder if I can just make these two work together seamlessly and call it a day :)
18:22	lancepantz	i'm very opposed to sql dsls, so it will always be straight sql for the migrations
18:22	ibdknox	lancepantz: or that :)
18:23	ibdknox	lancepantz: out of curiosity, why?
18:23	lancepantz	it's not really usable yet, aside from some connection utils we use
18:23	lancepantz	Raynes is supposed to help out with it this week
18:23	lancepantz	ibdknox: i just feel like if you're writing sql, you should know sql
18:23	lancepantz	that's something that you can't fuck up in production
18:23	ibdknox	sure
18:24	lancepantz	if you don't know sql, you should either not be writing migrations, or learning sql
18:24	lancepantz	considering you need it that is
18:24	lancepantz	i do like the composability that things like clojureql provide
18:24	ibdknox	so would you use a DSL outside of migrations?
18:24	Raynes	lancepantz: Speaking of that, we really need to talk about sqleton tomorrow. Like, definitely.
18:24	lancepantz	but even then, i get pissed off wheneve i have to use clojureql, it's full of strange compiler bugs
18:25	lancepantz	that you would never be able to debug if you did not indeed know sql
18:25	lancepantz	Raynes: sure
18:25	lancepantz	ibdknox: i don't like it, but i do :)
18:25	mabes	lancepantz: the argument (granted, largely hypothetical) for DSLs is to act as a translation layer between different SQL variants
18:25	lancepantz	being the gist
18:25	ibdknox	lol
18:25	ibdknox	mm
18:26	lancepantz	like i said, i dig the composability
18:26	lancepantz	we already started using clojureql before my hate for it grew
18:26	lancepantz	in a new project, i would not use
18:26	ibdknox	lancepantz: well, should you feel the need for something again, check out korma :)
18:27	brehaut	lancepantz: thats the established path ;)
18:27	lancepantz	ibdknox: did you write it?
18:27	ibdknox	lancepantz: yessir
18:27	lancepantz	i saw the post to the list, i'll take a look at it tonight
18:27	lancepantz	you did noir as well, correct?
18:27	ibdknox	yep
18:28	lancepantz	good work, you clearly know what you are doing, dont take my hate the wrong way :)
18:28	ibdknox	haha not at all, I think people fall on different sides of this one for good reason :)
18:28	lancepantz	i'm also a huge fan of readyforzero, so maybe i should just start a fan club
18:28	ibdknox	lol
18:28	srid	(defentity apps (has-one users {:fk :owner_id})) ;; here "owner_id" is a column in apps table referring to "id" in the users table. but it does't work.
18:29	ibdknox	srid: belongs-to
18:29	lancepantz	anyways, any of the core guys around?
18:29	srid	ibdknox: ah, right.
18:29	lancepantz	or anyone that's familiar with build.clojure.org
18:30	srid	ibdknox: just curious - does noir support running on netty? my project uses aleph/websockets that require netty
18:30	ibdknox	yes
18:30	ibdknox	it'll run anywhere a ring handler works
18:30	ibdknox	srid: https://gist.github.com/1257857
18:31	srid	ibdknox: not all parts of noir work in that example. for example, does code reloading work? i noticed that you are using aleph's http server
18:32	ibdknox	srid: yes they do.
18:32	ibdknox	the only part of noir that is dependent on jetty is start/stop/restart
18:33	lancepantz	ring handlers are abstractions on top of the servlet spec though right? which netty does not support
18:34	ibdknox	ring maps are independent of that, I think they used to be more coupled to servlets
18:34	ibdknox	but if you look at the spec now
18:34	ibdknox	there isn't a single key for servlets in it
18:34	brehaut	lancepantz: its an abstraction on HTTP, that happens to have implementations for servlet s
18:34	lancepantz	alright, just wanted to be sure
18:34	ibdknox	also, wrap-ring-handler does the magic necessary to work on netty's channel abstraction
18:35	lancepantz	very cool
18:35	lancepantz	yeah, the last time i looked it proxied the servlet class and overrode the service method
18:39	srid	(select foo (with bar baz moo) ...) ;; this doesn't work "No relationshiop defined for table: moo" - but the relationship is indirect/associative
18:39	ibdknox	one level only for now.
18:39	srid	foo -> baz -> moo
18:40	srid	ibdknox: any workaround?
18:40	ibdknox	srid: join?
18:42	srid	(fields ...) cannot be renamed? just found a conflict
18:43	srid	trial and error - (fields [:foo :foo2])
18:43	ibdknox	srid: all of that is in the docs
18:58	lancepantz	technomancy: are you around?
18:58	amalloy	lancepantz: fun fact: you can say "technomancy: ping?" and lazybot will /msg you next time technomancy does something
18:58	lancepantz	hah
19:12	srid	technomancy: ping?
19:13	srid	amalloy: does it work when priv msg'ing lazybot?
19:13	amalloy	yes
19:13	amalloy	that's Stalker Mode
19:18	brandel	anyone here doing health informatics by any chance?
19:18	thirddog	Clojure newbie here: have tried detailed instructions at http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs for setting up clojure/emacs on winxp and getting nowhere ... can anyone help?
19:20	brandel	it might help thirddog if you state which bit you're stuck on
19:20	tolstoy	thirddog: Don't know about windows, but I had much better luck with: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
19:20	thirddog	have set up as per instructions, but clojure-jack-in gives Exception in thread \"Main Thread\" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Cannot open <#<io$fn__7428$G__7382__7435 clojure.java.io$fn__7428$G__7382__7435@20d4d01>> as an OutputStream. (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
19:20	tolstoy	thirddog: With the instructions on that page (though I use .emacs, not .emacs.d/init.el).
19:20	ibdknox	seancorfield has some post somewhere talking about getting emacs + clojure on windows
19:21	thirddog	also, lein swank-clojure starts repl, but slime-connect from emacs says it has conncted but gives no prompt
19:21	tolstoy	I had better luck doing "lein swank" in a terminal, then "M-x slime-connect".
19:21	thirddog	my .emacs.d/init.el contains only code to install required packages, all else is in starter kit
19:22	tolstoy	thirddog: You also have to install slime-repl.el
19:25	thirddog	woo hoo! got a repl from emacs! at least slime-connect works now ... thx tolstoy
19:26	tolstoy	no prob.
19:27	technomancy	ohai ppl
19:28	ibdknox	OMG it's technomancy!!
19:28	technomancy	how are you gentlemen
19:28	thirddog	strangely, clojure-jack-in has also changed ... now shows "error in process filter: opening input file: no such file or directory <winxp user home>/.emacs.d/swank/slime-cdf283b4.el
19:29	thirddog	the <xp user home> direcory is wrong through, it's showing as C:/Documents and Settings<username> instead of c:/Documents and Settings/<username> ... wtf?
19:30	technomancy	thirddog: windows home handling is not what you would call coherent
19:30	thirddog	reeeaaalllllly ... no kidding
19:30	technomancy	lancepantz: what's up?
19:31	thirddog	looks like I'll be using slime-connect instead of clojure-jack-in then ... still, all seems to work according to the instructions online so not sure where my problem lies
19:31	technomancy	always up for a patch if you figure out what's going on
19:32	thirddog	not an emacs lisp person but I'll see what I can find .. maybe good practice for clojure :-)
19:34	lancepantz	technomancy: dude, i am having a hell of time getting lein to resolve data.priority map, as in: https://gist.github.com/7ab2b9a1c1b19efe6770
19:35	lancepantz	technomancy: meanwhile, it's definitely there... https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots/org/clojure/data.priority-map/0.0.2-SNAPSHOT/
19:37	technomancy	curious
19:39	technomancy	lancepantz: it's resolving fine here. what lein version?
19:39	lancepantz	really? as i gisted it? i'm on lein 1.5.2
19:40	technomancy	lemme see if I can repro on 1.5.2
19:40	lancepantz	technomancy: thanks man :)
19:40	technomancy	still works here.
19:40	technomancy	something spooky going on
19:40	lancepantz	hmm
19:41	technomancy	two days late for hallow'een no less
19:41	lancepantz	alright, well thanks for check for me man
19:41	lancepantz	*ing
19:41	technomancy	if you can repro on the latest feel free to open an issue
19:41	technomancy	you're on a mac?
19:41	lancepantz	technomancy: will do
19:41	lancepantz	and yes
19:41	lancepantz	should that matter?
19:42	technomancy	nah, "write once, run anywhere", remember?
19:42	technomancy	=)
19:42	technomancy	(I have no idea, just good to have more data)
19:42	lancepantz	gotcha,
19:42	TimMc	That defproject gets deps just fine on lein 1.6.1
19:42	lancepantz	i'm trying on amalloy's box now
19:42	TimMc	on Ubuntu 11.04 x64
19:43	lancepantz	works on amalloy's box too
19:43	lancepantz	so i've isolated it to me :)
19:44	TimMc	What platform are you on?
19:45	lancepantz	os x
19:46	ibdknox	worked on OS X Lion for me just now
19:46	lancepantz	k, all else has failed, time to blow away my m2
19:46	ibdknox	with latest lein
19:47	TimMc	lancepantz: That's what I always try first. >_<
19:47	ibdknox	lol
19:47	ibdknox	apply the hammer.
19:47	lancepantz	it worked!
19:47	TimMc	haha
19:47	lancepantz	hahaha
19:47	ibdknox	haha it's like me doing lein clean all the time :p
19:48	lancepantz	well, thanks for the help dudes
19:50	technomancy	ouch
19:50	technomancy	I wonder what could cause that
19:50	TimMc	Maven.
19:50	ibdknox	haha
19:50	ibdknox	fact.
19:52	amalloy	ibdknox: outside of this room, most people would answer "Java"
19:53	ibdknox	amalloy: haha, a year ago, I would have ;)
21:04	leo2007	does swank-clojure support java7?
21:04	leo2007	Iam getting this error: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/14579
21:36	wiseen	Is there a way to (reset! atom nil) and get the current atom value not the nil value assigned ?
21:38	hugod	wiseen: I believe you have to use loop and compare-and-set!
21:38	wiseen	I'm thinking about looping while dereferencing and attempting compare-and-swap
21:38	wiseen	hugod, :)
21:41	leo2007	damn, I was on the 1.3.x and the build have bugs. Switching to the master branch fixes all the errors.
21:41	wiseen	OK tnx, just wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything, tough it might be nice to have something more low-level like clear! because this is fairly low-level like reset!
21:42	wiseen	*tho
21:43	leo2007	Does C-c C-m in slime macroexpand clojure macros?
21:43	leo2007	I am getting "Evaluation aborted on java.lang.Exception: unknow swank function swank/swank-expand-1."
21:44	llasram	leo2007: It's supposed to, yeah
21:44	llasram	(Meaning, when working normally -- works for me)
21:46	leo2007	I tried to expand (when 1 2) but failed.
21:46	callen	leo2007: swank version?
21:46	callen	leo2007: how'd you bring the session up?
21:46	leo2007	callen: swank-clojure-1.4.0-SNAPSHOT.jar
21:47	leo2007	callen: I run the swank-clojure script which is this http://paste.pound-python.org/show/14636
21:47	leo2007	callen: I just want to bring up the repl and follow through Joy of Clojure.
21:48	llasram	leo2007: Which version of SLIME? I gather you aren't using clojure-jack-in ?
21:48	leo2007	llasram: no, I am using upstream slime.
21:50	llasram	Ok. In that case I'm not sure there are many people other than technomancy who can help you out, and he started bundling SLIME specifically to avoid these incompatibilities introduced upstream
21:50	llasram	(assuming that's the problem)
21:51	leo2007	llasram: I slightly modified swank-clojure to work with upstream slime: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/0cDo11do4hnDSxtSEiT9
21:51	leo2007	do you see any problems with that change? Sorry I am not yet familiar with clojure.
21:52	llasram	Er. I've poked around the swank-clojure source code a bit, but haven't really hacked on it. I'm afraid I have no idea if those changes are right, esp in the context of upstream SLIME changes. Sorry :-/
21:57	leo2007	llasram: no worries. Packaging an old version of slime.el is annoying because that one version ruins all my slime setups for Common Lisp and scheme.
22:15	mefesto	technomancy: ping
22:48	goodieboy	I'm attempting to understand macros better, and can't figure out why this doesn't work... anyone wanna give me a hint? https://gist.github.com/1335646
22:48	goodieboy	I get "Unable to resolve symbol: phrase in this context"
22:50	brehaut	goodieboy: because phrase isnt defined in your '(query… )' expression
22:50	brehaut	wait, no
22:51	brehaut	goodieboy: (macroexpand '(query (phrase "test"))) expands to (clojure.core/apply (phrase "test"))
22:52	brehaut	goodieboy: at which point apply it is evaluated, and phrase is not a bound symbol at that point
22:53	goodieboy	brehaut: hmm ok, so even though the let is setting it up, it's too late?
22:53	amalloy	goodieboy: the let is not helping
22:53	brehaut	goodieboy: let is lexicaly scoped; its not going to effect anything provided outside its scope
22:53	amalloy	because it is being evaluated inside of the query macro, not inside of the code produced by the query macro
22:54	goodieboy	... thinking
22:54	brehaut	goodieboy: how about you explain what you want that macro to do?
22:54	goodieboy	ok i think i understand
22:54	goodieboy	ok sure
22:55	goodieboy	I was hoping it would call phrase, which is a function that wraps its argument in quotes. So (query (phrase "test")) => "\"test\""
22:56	goodieboy	really ... just experimenting to see if I could call let-ed anonymous functions
22:56	amalloy	goodieboy: i would clarify your intent as: "i want this macro to introduce a function named phrase for use in the body". fair?
22:57	goodieboy	yes exactly
22:57	amalloy	in that case, the code you produce has to have a let in it
22:57	goodieboy	you mean, the code that is calling the macro?
22:58	amalloy	no
22:58	amalloy	you wrote (let [...] `(...))
22:59	goodieboy	yes
22:59	amalloy	that is creating a variable at compile time for the internal use of query, and not putting it in the code that query expands to
22:59	goodieboy	ahh i see
22:59	amalloy	if you want to return code with a let in it, you need to write `(let [...] (...))
23:00	goodieboy	got it, but then... I get the "can't let qualified name..." error
23:00	amalloy	right
23:00	amalloy	&`(let [x 1] x)
23:00	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [clojure.core/x 1] clojure.core/x)
23:01	amalloy	&`(let [x# 1] x#)
23:01	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [x__8715__auto__ 1] x__8715__auto__)
23:01	amalloy	&`(let [~'x 1] ~'x)
23:01	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [x 1] x)
23:01	goodieboy	hmm
23:01	goodieboy	oh ok
23:05	brehaut	goodieboy: next thing: why call apply if you are splicing together an sexp ?
23:05	amalloy	~' doesn't do any magic if you understand what's going on, but it also probably wouldn't hurt you to think of it as magic for a while if you have other things to learn
23:06	goodieboy	brehaut: yes i'm starting to see that now
23:06	clojurebot	two things are more than one thing
23:06	goodieboy	yow, my brain is hurting
23:07	brehaut	goodieboy: also, you can use destructuring for your macros argument. id replace [& form] with [[f & body]] and then ditch first and rest.
23:07	goodieboy	amalloy: i think i get it, will understand more after playing with it a bit
23:07	amalloy	clojurebot: thanks for the tip
23:07	goodieboy	brehaut: right ok
23:07	clojurebot	thanks for your suggestion, but as usual it is irrelevant
23:07	goodieboy	hehe
23:08	brehaut	goodieboy: i presume that you are wanting to split up the form for some additional reason, otherwise you could just use [form] and ~form
23:09	brandel	is anyone working on a clojurescript book atm by any chance?
23:10	goodieboy	brehaut: yes, at some point... the query macro could take as many different types of query sexps as needed. But that's a long way off :)
23:41	Raynes	brehaut: ping?
23:41	brehaut	Raynes: pong