#clojure – 2011-10-22

2011-10-22

00:00	Raynes	jodaro: Ping.
04:00	kab3wm	Anyone here familiar with redis-clojure? I'm having trouble grasping something..
04:03	amalloy	~anyone
04:03	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
04:07	kab3wm	As soon as I hit enter I thought of that.. So from the redis-clojure tests, I see all of the get/set/etc operations being called within the (redis/with-server) function. This seems wrong to me. So my question is, is it possible to use (redis/with-server) purely as a connection setup function and have (redis/set "foo" "bar") wherever I want them? So far in my testing it's not working.
04:12	amalloy	kab3wm: this is a fairly standard way to use dynamic scope, if i understand your question
04:13	amalloy	(defn do-actual-work [] (...redis/set ...)) (defn prepare [] (redis/with-server (do-actual-work)))
04:13	amalloy	you don't need to be lexically within the with-server block, you just have to set before that block exits. if you want, wrap your whole event loop in with-server and you'll have it whenever you need it
04:14	amalloy	personally i prefer the way aleph-redis does it, but this way is a common pattern
04:15	kab3wm	amalloy: maybe I just don't understand the protocol, but with-server is what makes the connection to the redis server. I would think it would be better to connect once and pass commands as needed instead of a new connection for every db operation.
04:17	kab3wm	amalloy: I'll give your example a try, that looks like it might work.. I'm new to clojure, so I'm sure I just don't know the right way to do things. :)
04:53	maxalwings	Hello, technomancy_ I have installed leiningen using brew on mac, but when I run lein repl or lein swank within my clojure projct i get an exception like this \| http://pastebin.com/bkhQW7YB
04:59	ejackson	maxalwings: you don't need brew (i'm on a mac using lein and have no idea what brew is)
05:16	maxalwings	ejackson brew is just a package manage, but I have successfully installed lein, it seems that I don't have some java/clojure classes?
05:16	ejackson	if you try lein help does it work ?
05:17	ejackson	thereafter try create a now project with lein new myproject, cd into that dir, and try lein deps.
05:18	ejackson	that will let you know whether lein or perhaps your project.clj are at fault
05:18	ejackson	s/now project/new project/
05:20	maxalwings	ejackson all these steps works fine
05:20	ejackson	ok, did you run lein deps in your project ?
05:20	maxalwings	ejackson yes
05:21	ejackson	bummer.
05:22	ejackson	I'm outta ideas, sorry. Perhaps your project.clj is incomplete or malformed ?
05:22	maxalwings	this is what I have in project.clj "(defproject clojure "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"
05:22	maxalwings	:description "FIXME: write description"
05:22	maxalwings	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.2.1"]])
05:22	maxalwings	:
05:22	Raynes	gist.github.com
05:22	ejackson	well, its hard to go wrong with that.
05:24	ejackson	I'd try pulling my code to pieces, and rebuilding it step at a time to identify where it blows up.
05:24	ejackson	i've not seen that error before, so dunno what has gone wrong.
05:26	maxalwings	thanks for your help, I am going to re install lein make without
05:26	maxalwings	install lein without brew
05:29	kjeldahl	;(= {:a {:b {:c 1}}} {:a {:b {:c 2}}})
05:29	kjeldahl	,(= {:a {:b {:c 1}}} {:a {:b {:c 2}}})
05:29	clojurebot	false
05:29	kjeldahl	,(= {:a {:b {:c 1}}} {:a {:b {:c 1.0}}})
05:29	clojurebot	false
05:29	kjeldahl	,(= {:a {:b {:c 1}}} {:a {:b {:c 1}}})
05:29	clojurebot	true
08:24	fliebel	Are there any native speakers around who'd like to proof read a blog post? I usually don't do that, but I saw cemerick do it once, and I'm curious what'll come out of it.
08:38	fliebel	Ok, I'm going ahead and publish the post.
08:42	fliebel	Done. after-the-fact corrections still welcome. http://pepijndevos.nl/2011/10/22/the-origin-of-language.html
08:54	joegallo	Bull5h!t
08:54	joegallo	dammit
08:54	joegallo	wrong window
08:54	joegallo	ignore me
09:54	hugod	fliebel: leuk - I would argue that one of the ways natural language differs from programming languages is that it has words with different levels of abstraction, for the same concept.
09:56	hugod	and that is what allows you to have a conversation in English with a 500 word vocabulary, but makes, say, Martin Amis much more interesting to read
10:26	fliebel	hugod: Interesting though. Thanks.
10:29	fliebel	*thought
10:31	fliebel	Almost like polymorphism... Or maybe not... Hm
10:42	jodaro	Raynes: sup
11:20	djpowell	Some gclosure functions return NodeLists - how can I deal with those in clojurescript
11:59	robermann	quick question: what does -> mean in the context of http://blip.tv/clojure/stuart-halloway-simplicity-ain-t-easy-4842694 , at time 25:13 ?
11:59	robermann	I reported here the example: http://pastebin.com/nvR1wAi3
12:01	robermann	There -> isn't a call - it seems an attribute access
12:02	devn	robermann: I'm not sure actually -- it's not contained within (keys (ns-publics ns))
12:03	devn	robermann: perhaps it was meant to be an ;=> ?
12:04	robermann	devn: mmm I can't understand "inputStream->reader"
12:07	djpowell	i guess it might be some custom function
12:07	djpowell	clojure.java.io/reader will probably do the same thing?
12:08	djpowell	-> in the middle of a function name has no special meaning, it is just part of the function name
12:10	devn	robermann: you're looking at "naming a la carte"
12:11	robermann	devn: implementation reuse
12:12	robermann	djpowel: that could be, make sense - I this the only option IMHO :)
12:12	robermann	I this -> it is
12:21	devn	robermann: "I think this is the only option IMHO" is I think what you meant. Correct?
13:22	robermann	devn: yes you are correct
13:31	zilti	Hmm. For me swank-clojure still doesn't work... damn it.
13:33	robermann	why zilti?
13:33	zilti	robermann: Still getting those errors each time I use the slime REPL
13:34	robermann	on windows?
13:34	zilti	on Linux
13:35	zilti	I don't have any manual slime installation. Only clojure-mode. Then I use clojure-jack-in (which is supposed to fetch the correct SLIME I've been told).
13:38	robermann	having emacs + slime should be a mandatory prerequisite
13:39	zilti	I removed the manually installed slime because I thought that would solve the problem.
13:43	zilti	"error in process filter: Wrong type argument: characterp, nil" and then "error in process filter: Variable binding depth exceeds max-specpdl-size"
13:43	zilti	And then emacs is totally broken and unusable.
13:45	robermann	I don't konw. I think you 've already seen guides as http://riddell.us/ClojureSwankLeiningenWithEmacsOnLinux.html
13:45	lazybot	The riddell.us tutorials are much more highly-ranked on Google than they deserve to be. They're old and way too complicated. If you're trying to install Clojure...don't! Instead, install Leiningen (https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/stable) and let it manage Clojure for you.
13:52	zilti	Yes, I have everything set up as it should, except that it doesn't work
13:58	moogatronic	zilti: what OS are you running?
13:58	robermann	zilti: mm I cannot give much help here, sorry. I installed it on windows
13:58	moogatronic	nm… i scrolled back and saw. =)
14:00	moogatronic	I actually followed some instructions from Sam Aaron / Overtone to get my setup working.
14:01	moogatronic	Does anyone know of a "room-share" board or anything of the like for the Conj? I am looking for a potential roommate to split the hotel costs.
14:02	moogatronic	<--- (poor'ish PhD student)
14:31	theignorati	I'm controlling an piece of hardware with Clojure through midi, so I have something like this (set-control 10 15) and that will generate a list of 4 numbers that I can then make a midi shortmessage with (something like this (176 0 10 15), and send to the device. I can also change controls on the device and I will get (176 0 10 15) from it, is there a clever way of going from that back to (set-control 10 15)?
14:32	AWizzArd	~seen lpetit
14:32	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:32	AWizzArd	,seen lpetit
14:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seen in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:42	TimMc	$seen lpetit
14:42	lazybot	lpetit was last seen quitting 1 week and 2 days ago.
14:43	TimMc	theignorati: A way to get from '(1 2 3 4) to '(3 4)?
14:45	theignorati	from the result of (function param1 param2) being (1 2 3 4) back to (function param1 param2) for several functions)
14:46	TimMc	Are they invertible functions?
14:48	theignorati	they're functions that look like this: (defn f [level] (list 176 0 61 level))
14:55	AWizzArd	Anybody here who has experience with OSGi+Clojure?
16:46	lynaghk	Has anyone gotten the ClojureScript browser REPL working nicely with Emacs?
16:47	lynaghk	I've been following David's instructions on the ClojureScript Github wiki, but after a few commands I always seem to end up hanging the repl.
16:48	amalloy	theignorati: that's something that i think is usually pretty simple in logic programming, but i don't know much more about it. you might have a look at dnolen's core.logic
16:48	dnolen	amalloy: nice one ;)
16:49	amalloy	dnolen: i hit the mark, then?
16:49	dnolen	lynaghk: some kinds of errors will hang the repl.
16:49	dnolen	lynaghk: but really that shouldn't happen so much.
16:49	lynaghk	Undefined functions?
16:49	dnolen	lynaghk: that doesn't usually hang the REPL for me.
16:50	lynaghk	I am just playing around with console.log, which is implemented as native code
16:50	lynaghk	in the browser. Maybe that's an issue
16:51	dnolen	lynaghk: perhaps. but that doesn't sound right. I've used (. js/console (log …)) a bit, rarely do something that hangs the REPL.
16:51	lynaghk	Hmm. I'm just thinking there is a bit of strangeness there;
16:51	dnolen	lynaghk: but it's possible to hang the REPL - haven't look closely at what it take to prevent that more often.
16:51	lynaghk	(def p (.log js/console)) doesn't work
16:51	lynaghk	(defn p [x] (.log js/console x))
16:51	lynaghk	but that does
16:52	dnolen	lynaghk: known issue, there no way to differentiate property access w/ method calls.
16:52	dnolen	w/ -> from, I mean.
16:53	dnolen	lynaghk: good chance that (.log js/console) will work in the future, and property access will look different than it does now.
16:53	lynaghk	yeah, I understand that issue. Shouldn't you be able to say (p "hello") after either of those definitions regardless though?
16:53	lynaghk	since (.log js/console) should be getting the function-as-a-property
16:55	amalloy	lynaghk: if those two don't behave the same, i'd guess the difference is that the former is called with the wrong "this" binding
16:57	lynaghk	I'm not sure if console.log relies on `this`. Can't say, since it's native code on Chrome.
16:57	dnolen	lynaghk: it doesn't work even if you do that in JS
16:57	dnolen	var p = console.log; p("foo"); results in an Error
16:58	lynaghk	Ah, good observation.
17:00	lynaghk	I guess that's just not-quite-a-js-function.
17:06	pandeiro	you can't just assign native functions to other variables in js... document.getElementById for another example
17:07	pandeiro	so the idiom is function p(q) { console.log(q); } or function $(id) { return document.getElementById(id); }
17:09	pandeiro	dnolen: i get a ton of funky output when i initialize my repl (namely when i do the necessary refresh of the browser)... but the repl performance afterwards is pretty stable compared to when i first started
17:10	dnolen	pandeiro: yeah, it takes a while for the REPL to get going. one enhancement I would like to see is browser REPL relying on WebSockets when available.
17:11	pandeiro	yeah the REPL is also slow if you try to println a chunk of data into an inferior lisp buffer
17:11	pandeiro	the combo of datatype conversion and no proper templating also makes working with the DOM feel 1000x slower than jquery
17:12	dnolen	pandeiro: yes printing back to the REPL would benefits from WebSockets I think.
17:12	dnolen	pandeiro: you can use jQuery
17:12	pandeiro	sure i know but jquery and closure?
17:12	dnolen	pandeiro: yup
17:13	pandeiro	i would like to build out the functionality with closure if possible... i do see the performance win with the compiler and stuff
17:14	pandeiro	i think a lot of it is just the proper abstractions havent been built out
17:14	pandeiro	(i did your enlive tutorial and if something like that could exist for cljs, that would be fantastic)
17:15	dnolen	pandeiro: yeah datatype conversion stinks, but that's mostly when working w/ other libraries - there's a ticket for emitting JS literals.
17:15	pandeiro	isn't a lot of the power of clojure in the datatypes though?
17:15	pandeiro	i am really loving it for grabbing and processing couchdb docs with crazy nesting
17:15	dnolen	pandeiro: yes, I prefer Clojure's datatypes.
17:16	pandeiro	dnolen: dont mean to complain btw, awesome fing work youre doing
17:16	dnolen	pandeiro: but working with other libraries that expect objects is a bit of work.
17:16	dnolen	dnolen: haha, my contribution so far has been minor compared to everyone else :)
17:16	dnolen	oops pandeiro
17:16	scode	With interop, is it idiomatic to use (Integer. xxx) to force use of Integer? (int xxx) gives me a Long in Clojure 1.3.
17:16	pandeiro	collective you
17:17	dnolen	scode: yes
17:17	scode	dnolen: Thanks!
17:28	TimMc	scode: What is xxx here?
17:28	TimMc	Just some number?
17:28	scode	TimMc: yes
17:28	scode	TimMc: (.getClass (int 5))
17:29	scode	TimMc: (yields Long)
17:29	TimMc	,(list (.getClass (int 5)) clojure-version)
17:29	clojurebot	(java.lang.Long {:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil})
17:29	TimMc	&(list (.getClass (int 5)) clojure-version)
17:29	lazybot	⇒ (java.lang.Integer {:major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier ""})
17:29	scode	Nice bot.
17:31	TimMc	,(doc int)
17:31	clojurebot	"([x]); Coerce to int"
17:32	scode	I was kinda surprised. Could it be a bug rather than intended behavior?
17:32	TimMc	It is kind of odd.
17:32	scode	long (the function) certainly still exists.
17:34	gfredericks	I think it's intended
17:34	gfredericks	I witnessed a conversation about this earlier
17:34	gfredericks	might be able to find it in the irc archives actually...
17:35	amalloy	it's intended. people complain about it whenever they find out though
17:35	amalloy	there's a(nother) long discussion on the mailing lists going on right now
17:35	scode	FTR: I am not complaining, just thought it might be a bug :)
17:35	TimMc	clojure.lang.RT/intCast vs. longCast -- so the distinction is in RT
17:35	TimMc	The doc might be a bug.
17:36	amalloy	TimMc: no, int does coerce to int
17:36	TimMc	Oh, then autopromotes?
17:36	scode	Ah...
17:36	scode	int, not Integer
17:36	amalloy	autoboxes, anyway
17:36	amalloy	(and 1.3 introduces auto-promoting boxing, so yeah, i guess)
17:36	scode	Hmmm. Why are int:s promoted to Long:s rather than Integers I wonder?
17:37	TimMc	1.3 standardizes on Long for some reason
17:37	scode	Ok.
17:40	gfredericks	&(list (.getClass (int 6)) (.getClass (long 4)))
17:40	lazybot	⇒ (java.lang.Integer java.lang.Long)
17:40	bartj	which is the recommended clojure library to parse HTML
17:40	bartj	enlive ?
17:40	gfredericks	yeah
17:40	gfredericks	at least that's what everybody always says when somebody asks that question
17:40	gfredericks	I assume they're not joking
17:40	bartj	I am trying to do some information extraction work
17:41	bartj	which also involves getting the HTML width, height, location, color, ec. of elements
17:41	bartj	of the web page
17:41	gfredericks	that...sounds like a hell of a lot more than parsing.
17:41	bartj	I suppose that this can be done only after plugging in to the rendering engine
17:42	bartj	say maybe Webkit (or) Gecko
17:42	llasram	I kind of feel like people would find the autopromotion less confusing if Clojure didn't try to be a little helpful w/ Java interop by keeping unmolested ints as ints. If ints -> longs as soon as Clojure found them, I think no-one would be complaining that the semantics didn't make sense
17:42	bartj	I would be really really grateful if someone can point me how to use
17:43	bartj	or hook onto a rendering engine like Webkit / Gecko
17:43	llasram	bartj: Hoo boy. That's kind of tricky. Last time I looked into it (from Python, for the calibre project) there wasn't really a good way to do it
17:43	llasram	As in, at all
17:43	gfredericks	,(for [num [(long 5) (int 5) (short 5)]] (.getClass num))
17:43	clojurebot	(java.lang.Long java.lang.Long java.lang.Short)
17:43	gfredericks	^ the unexpected behaviors keep piling up
17:44	llasram	bartj: Qt's WebKit bindings get you some of what you need, but it's pretty thoroughly munged. Depending on what you're doing, it may be enough, but I don't think you can get at that info from the JVM
17:45	bartj	llasram, any pointers sir ?
17:47	llasram	bartj: It's been a while, but you can look at the Qt webkit api: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qtwebkit.html But obviously you'd need to then use a language with Qt bindings
17:48	bartj	which would be mostly python I think
17:48	llasram	,(.getClass ((fn [x] (inc x)) (short 0)))
17:48	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
17:48	gfredericks	o_o
17:49	llasram	I think the short -> Short boxing behavior is more arguable the bug
17:55	gfredericks	,(.getClass (byte 4))
17:55	clojurebot	java.lang.Byte
17:56	gfredericks	,(.getClass (inc (byte 4)))
17:56	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
18:00	daniel___	,(byte 4)
18:00	clojurebot	4
18:00	daniel___	,(byte s)
18:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: s in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:04	llasram	Whoa, crazy-town. There's are Java Qt bindings: http://qt-jambi.org/
18:05	zilti	llasram: But they're outdated and deprecated.
18:05	zilti	*not deprecated, but outdated
18:05	llasram	zilti: Ah, ok.
18:09	zilti	llasram: iirc trolltech stopped supporting it after Qt 4.5. Recently a small group tried to continue it (the link you posted) but it seems it's too much for them to bite. I mean, click on the Documentation > API link - it links to Qt 4.5.0 API
18:41	ejackson	dnolen: are these your little Byrds again ? :P
18:41	dnolen	ejackson: ha!
19:12	simard	I've just pushed [org.clojars.gsimard/lwjgl "2.8.1"] because [org.lwjgl/lwjgl "2.7.1"] is too old. I used org.clojars.gsimard there, because I was wondering if org.lwjgl has anything "reserved" about it.
19:12	simard	what is the ethics of choosing a name when pushing to clojars ?
19:13	scottj	I think the norm is don't use someone else's prefix w/o permission. I don't know if the system enforces it
19:14	simard	yeah, that's why I didn't use org.lwjgl, also, I didn't want to break anything .. :)
19:16	duck1123	so do you always have to use literals when defining match patterns? I tried defining some of my values in vars and it's failing oddly
19:17	simard	from the clojars wiki "You can’t create a group with the same name as an existing group or user."
19:17	simard	so no, it's not possible to push to some group that you don't belong to
19:17	simard	the other user has to add you first
19:49	gfredericks	actually...
19:49	gfredericks	you _can_ create a group with the same name as an existing user
19:49	gfredericks	and once you've done that, that user cannot update their profile (password, keys, etc).
19:55	gfredericks	I should just stop whining about it and get a replacement account.
20:01	dnolen	cemerick: I don't believe it.
20:01	cemerick	?
20:01	dnolen	https://twitter.com/cemerick/status/127895772120363008
20:02	cemerick	dnolen: https://twitter.com/#!/cemerick/status/127896015272554496 :-)
20:02	dnolen	cemerick: whew. world was upside down there for a second.
20:02	cemerick	My job is done here.
20:03	cemerick	Phil is going to facepalm when he sees that though. He'll be my first tech support /msg if necessary.
21:38	ozataman	hey all. when using a simple folder with a couple of clojure files, emacs and slime, the slime repl can't find one of the files in its classpath when trying to load the other file that depends on the first. any simple solutions to this?
21:39	ozataman	I've started a swank-clojure inside this folder and used slime-connect
21:44	amalloy	ozataman: probably the wrong directory structure
21:45	cemerick	Does emacs/slime provide an equivalent to a file outline?
21:46	amalloy	cemerick: it's been a while since i used eclipse, but i remember several features that might be described as a file outline. which one are you asking about?
21:46	amalloy	(note: i don't know the answer either way, b/c i've never gone looking for an outline in emacs. but if you clarify what you want someone else might know)
21:47	cemerick	amalloy: a panel separate from the main buffer that maintains an updated listing of all top-levels in that buffer.
21:48	cemerick	usually with graphical indicators of each one's characteristics (defn/def, private or not, etc)
21:51	amalloy	i remember that being mostly in the Package Explorer. some quick googling turned up http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ but no idea if it's any good
21:52	cemerick	oh, I remember that from my last emacs foray. JDEE. shiver
21:52	cemerick	Yeah, that's the ticket.
21:52	duck1123	ecb has gotten pretty good
21:52	cemerick	I think your mode needs to produce ctags or something similar in order for ECB to work…
21:53	duck1123	now that it's in elpa
21:53	cemerick	duck1123: does it work with Clojure?
21:53	cemerick	er, SLIME, whatever?
21:53	duck1123	pretty well, but you can jump to fns even without it
21:53	duck1123	it has a fn list, file list, and recent buffers
21:54	cemerick	good to know, thanks :-)
21:54	duck1123	you can also configure it to keep the compile buffers at the bottom
21:55	cemerick	Then my other question would be, is there a namespace browser somewhere? That is, something like a wildcard apropos view, but organized by namespace, and filterable in-place?
21:57	duck1123	cemerick: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/270347/Screenshot%20at%202011-10-22%2021%3A54%3A31.png
21:58	cemerick	duck1123: sorry; is that ECB on the left?
21:59	duck1123	yes, the lower left shows all the symbols
22:04	cemerick	oh, I see, that's the current buffer outline
22:04	cemerick	presumably a namespace browser would be a SLIME feature…
22:05	ozataman	amalloy: FYI, swank-clojure script in .lein/bin needed to be tweaked to add "." to the classpath. that was the problem.
22:07	duck1123	If you want all the namespaces C-c M-p <tab>
22:24	amalloy	ozataman: no, the problem was you wanted . to be in the classpath :P
22:26	amalloy	lein projects are "supposed" to (though you can customize layout in project.clj) have their source code under the src/ directory, which is on the classpath
22:26	hugod	cemerick: it would be relatively simple to add a buffer for browsing namespaces in slime - not sure it is worth it
22:27	cemerick	hugod: yeah, it's not a hard problem; I'm just surveying the current state of things.
22:28	cemerick	The degree of utility is perhaps a potential point of debate. ;-)
22:29	scottj	perhaps filtering a namespace browser is akin to slime-apropos-package
22:30	hugod	scottj: that seems to fit the bill
22:31	hugod	scottj: btw, have you seen the exception filtering in ritz 0.2.0?
22:31	cemerick	That's M-x slime-apropos-package then?
22:31	scottj	hugod: I saw the commit and was excited about it but I haven't actually tried it yet
22:32	hugod	it's pretty basic at the moment - but will hopefully be enough to provoke some feedback
22:32	scottj	cemerick: yeah not sure if works on swank-clojure though failed for me
22:32	cemerick	scottj: Yeah, seems like a no-op
22:33	hugod	works for me in ritz
22:33	duck1123	C-c C-d C-p is slime-apropos-package
22:48	ozataman	duck1123: what is that folder/tree package that you're using?
22:48	duck1123	That's ecb
22:48	ozataman	amalloy: I don't want a lein project; this needs to be a minimal folder. it's actually for google AI challenge
22:48	ozataman	duck1123: thank you
22:49	ozataman	duck1123: and the history box?
22:49	duck1123	ozataman: that's all ecb. That's what I was trying to demonstrate with that screenshot
22:50	ozataman	duck1123: very cool, I'm reading the project info page now.
22:50	duck1123	it's in elpa now, so it's much easier to install than it used to be
22:51	technomancy	cemerick: the file outline thingy that I use is M-x imenu
22:51	technomancy	(within a single file)
22:52	technomancy	for namespace listing, I just use the tab-completion in M-.
22:53	duck1123	I have C-x <tab> for ido-imenu. Should be default in starter kit
22:55	ozataman	duck1123: just used elpa to install, but getting an error with ecb-activate. says stack-trace-on-error is void
22:56	duck1123	ozataman: try ecb_snap instead
22:56	duck1123	despite how you may feel about that underscore
22:57	cemerick	what are the 3 most compelling things about emacs w.r.t. Clojure programming, aside from the basics (REPL, paredit)?
22:58	duck1123	excluding all of slime, or just the repl? Because that's a very big part of it
22:58	technomancy	cemerick: the fact that M-. for jump-to-definition works on code whether it's your own or in a jar is definitely top-3 material
22:58	technomancy	cemerick: C-c S-i for the slime inspector is slick too
22:59	technomancy	because it's hyperlinked; you can jump around from inspecting an instance to inspecting its class to inspecting each method and the return types thereof
22:59	technomancy	to some degree it can function as a javadoc replacement
22:59	duck1123	(inc technomancy)
22:59	cemerick	duck1123: excluding REPL basics, I mean
23:00	technomancy	probably for #3 I would list the in-buffer test runner (C-c C-, inside a test file with clojure-test-mode activated)
23:00	technomancy	since that will highlight failing/errored tests red/yellow and let you see details about the failures with C-c C-'
23:00	scottj	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dio__Qylp-s screencast on using ac-slime as a namespace browser
23:00	duck1123	Truthfully, C-c C-k to load the whole file is the biggest feature for me
23:01	cemerick	I think that's "basics" :-)
23:01	technomancy	(the last of those being the only feature I actually personally implemnted, heh.)
23:01	cemerick	technomancy: I've internalized jump-to-definition; I'll have to noodle with the inspector though. This clojure-test-mode sounds interesting.
23:01	ozataman	duck1123: still getting the same error :(
23:01	alandipert	being able to configure the editor with emacs lisp is fun and compelling for me
23:02	ozataman	ecb-activate-internal: Symbol's value as variable is void: stack-trace-on-error
23:02	technomancy	the inspector is not very well-known, but it's handy
23:03	cemerick	I'm surprised no one mentioned the debug stuff. :-)
23:03	duck1123	ozataman: remove the entire directory for the other one and restart emacs. What version are you running?
23:03	ozataman	duck1123: did that already. emacs 24
23:04	technomancy	cemerick: locals-clearing makes the debug-repl less useful than it could be, though it sounds like hugod is on the job.
23:04	technomancy	hugod: total crickets from core about that patch though, huh? too bad.
23:04	duck1123	I haven't had much luck with debugging. Not enough for it to replace dropping a logging macro and running a test
23:05	cemerick	scottj: isn't that just code completion / show-docs?
23:06	cemerick	("just" not meant derogatorily — just not what I think of as a namespace browser)
23:06	ozataman	duck1123: got it working! needed to remove the perspective package I had and added a (setq stack-trace-on-error t)
23:06	scottj	cemerick: pretty much, it knows what code's loaded. what else does a namespace browser do?
23:06	hugod	technomancy: some sort of comment would be nice, even if just to say that it is never going to happen
23:06	technomancy	well the full on cdt debugger is one thing, but the swank.core/break to pull up the debug repl with locals access is built-in to swank and thus a lot easier to use.
23:06	duck1123	ozataman: nice
23:07	cemerick	hugod: the locals-clearing stuff is squarely in the realm of the "debug builds" issue, which is long-standing and a high priority AFAIK
23:07	hugod	cemerick: not really - it can be accomplished with a two line patch
23:08	hugod	in a much more selective way than a debug build could provide
23:08	cemerick	scottj: "browser" implies to me a persistent, constantly-updated view of the loaded namespaces and vars
23:09	cemerick	hugod: "debug builds" is a catch-all for alternative compilation modes as well as potentially different packages. I doubt any patch on that topic would be taken until the powers that be settle on a strategy in general.
23:10	cemerick	e.g. assert is also just a binding, but has sorta-broken semantics IMO, and that's in scope for "debug builds"
23:11	cemerick	OK, so what about emacs/SLIME is absolute hell when it comes to Clojure programming?
23:11	hugod	cemerick: sure - some discussion would still be welcome
23:11	scottj	nothing
23:12	technomancy	cemerick: on OS X, the $PATH for GUI-launched programs doesn't match the configured $PATH for the shell
23:12	technomancy	so you get a lot of confused users who can't launch swank servers
23:12	technomancy	the other huge remaining pain point is attempting to maintain a config that works for CL and Clojure at the same time
23:13	cemerick	mmm, that's super out of scope IMO :-)
23:13	scottj	which I've done pretty easily for years
23:13	alandipert	cemerick: is this for the book?
23:13	technomancy	scottj: ok, I'll start referring folks to you =)
23:13	cemerick	alandipert: ostensibly :-)
23:13	alandipert	it may be worth noting that emacs is still quite useful even with just inferior-lisp + paredit
23:14	alandipert	that's what i tend to recommend to people i show stuff, knowing they'll stumble into slime later
23:14	cemerick	I'm still not sure if I want to write the (short) section on emacs. I might just punt to Brian, but I want to know the lay of the land in any case.
23:14	technomancy	yeah, inf-lisp is underrated
23:14	technomancy	cemerick: I'd be happy to review either way
23:15	cemerick	alandipert: Point taken; I'd like to make sure the emacs road is presented in its fullest glory in any case though.
23:15	alandipert	cemerick: be sure to have a little break-out at the corner of a page that shows off nyan-cat mode
23:15	scottj	you can easily setup clojurescript to use inf-lisp and clojure to use slime and with browser-repl C-x C-e to eval code backend or frontend
23:15	cemerick	technomancy: Noted. Once the section is drafted, I'll send you a PDF. Thanks. :-)
23:15	cemerick	alandipert: :-)
23:15	cemerick	We're a meme-free book, I think.
23:16	cemerick	aside from the "WTF are you doing not using Clojure" meme, of course
23:17	scottj	An emacs feature that hasn't been mentioned is clojure-refactoring which has been dorment for a long time but recently got several patches
23:17	cemerick	scottj: that's editor-independent, no?
23:17	scottj	I don't know it has a emacs UI
23:18	scottj	I know it's part clojure and part emacs lisp, not sure if anyone's hooked the clojure part into another editor
23:19	technomancy	that might be a bit too edge for the book
23:21	technomancy	but it would be cool if it were better-known
23:21	cemerick	Yeah, we're not going in-depth with the tool-specific stuff; just a page or two for emacs and eclipse to give people a flavor of each so they have an idea of what to dig at first.
23:22	cemerick	We do go deep with foundational REPL techniques, principles, etc.
23:22	cemerick	The chapter is titled "REPL-oriented programming", actually.
23:23	scottj	I agree making it an emacs slime tutorial does't make sense, but if you say "Eclipse has debugging, refactoring, etc." I didn't want you to leave off refactoring from the EMacs list :)
23:23	cemerick	Eclipse doesn't have Clojure refactoring. :-)
23:23	scottj	maybe you should point that out so they know where to look :)
23:24	scottj	Eclipse has debugging stepping through clojure and java code right?
23:24	alandipert	cemerick: good luck on book, looking forward to it nyan or not
23:24	alandipert	g'night all
23:24	cemerick	alandipert: Thanks. It'll be done-done-done this month.
23:24	technomancy	oh wow; that's great
23:24	alandipert	rockin!
23:25	cemerick	scottj: Yeah; every JVM debugger should be able to do that.
23:25	scottj	done-done-done-not-really-done-meaning-not-edited-right? :)
23:26	cemerick	scottj: Not edited by the publisher's people, but I'm too much of a perfectionist for there to be that much to do.
23:26	cemerick	That sounded more egotistical than I intended. :-P
23:26	scottj	cemerick: after joy of clojure I don't think I'll buy another non-edited book unless I really must have it now
23:26	cemerick	oh?
23:28	scottj	I posted maybe 10 things about chapter 2 (not sure exact chapter) and then said wtf why am I working as an editor for free
23:28	cemerick	oh, via the MEAP, etc.
23:28	scottj	yeah. published version is much better
23:29	technomancy	cemerick: is that a sand piper on the cover?
23:29	cemerick	Right. Well, I'm sure they'll have their way with it — but I'm happy enough to close the book on the project mentally once I hand the thing over.
23:29	cemerick	technomancy: painted snipe
23:30	cemerick	very similar, IIRC
23:30	technomancy	oh, like from the movie Up =)
23:31	cemerick	hrm, perhaps, don't remember the bird's name
23:32	cemerick	I need to re-watch that at some point; it was only afterwards that I decided I liked it.
23:33	technomancy	I think it's my favourite of Pixar's. great pathos.
23:34	cemerick	Wall-E has been my favorite so far, I think.
23:34	cemerick	More because of the Wall-E/Eva connection than the rest of it.
23:35	technomancy	yeah. if you counted the first half on its own it would probably be my favourite.
23:36	cemerick	If they hadn't used the live-action bits for the taped messages from earth, I wouldn't need to qualify my preference. :-/