#clojure – 2011-10-17

2011-10-17

03:02	kiuma	hello, is there a clojure plugin for netbeans 7.0.1 ?
03:03	scottj	there's whatever's the latest on enclojure's website
03:24	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:32	depy	yo
03:38	Blkt	:D
04:00	khaliG	has anyone here used proguard to optimise their clojure app?
06:40	todun	I am trying to do unit=testing. I write all my test functions into one file that is in the test/sractch path in the clojure project I create. Then I call the test like so: (clojure.contrib.test-is/run-tests & namespaces). This is how I saw it done in an example. No compilation. No change of namespaces. I get the following exception: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.test-is (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0). Am I doing something wrong, yes?
07:13	todun	Another question. I try to remove a specific character from an input string using the following function http://pastebin.com/F1FBrRsd . I get an exception when I try this is in the REPL (java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Character). Is there a way to ensure that I don't get this error or I re-cast the input or accepting input of the function?
07:15	todun	When I try to cast it by making the input a list '(input) or a vector [input] I get the following exception in either case: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
07:17	cemerick	todun: clojure.test supersedes c.c.test-is in all cases
07:17	todun1	I'm a bit confused as to how to use def. the docs talk about (def symbol init?). def is defined to be a general form a function. And yet when I try to use the notation of defn to define a function, I get "too many argument" errors and such. Am I missing something here?
07:18	todun	cemerick: is that the exact syntax I should put in?
07:18	cemerick	is what the exact syntax?
07:19	todun	cemerick: clojure.test supersedes c.c.test-is in all cases
07:19	cemerick	that's not syntax, that's a sentence :-)
07:19	todun	lol
07:19	todun	ok.
07:20	cemerick	It sounds like you could use a good Clojure book to help you along. There are many fine choices.
07:20	todun	cemerick: I'm reading two actively as I type.
07:21	cemerick	ah, ok
07:21	todun	do not know if they are the standard. But I welcome your suggestions.
07:21	todun	"Programming in Clojure" of which most just flies over my head, especially recursion which I'm trying to learn first.
07:22	todun	"Seven Languages in Seven Weeks" shorter intro lacks the necessary depth I need for problems that arise like the questions I've been asking.
07:22	cemerick	well, I'll help with your zg function; what are you trying to do exactly?
07:23	todun	remove certain characters from the string .eg. newline , tabs etc.
07:24	todun	I think I have the functionality down, but I don't know how to do the casting. perhaps I'm looking at the problem the wrong way.
07:24	cemerick	so `w` is a String?
07:26	todun	about to quickly change internet locations brb
07:29	todun	cemerick: yes. the input is a string
07:31	todun	cemerick: I tried making it a list or vector but I got a different exception as shown above.
07:35	cemerick	todun: there are many ways you can do this, but only one efficient way
07:36	todun	cemerick: ok...
07:36	todun	is my way right, wrong, efficient?
07:37	cemerick	OK, outside of benchmarking things, I retract that. :-)
07:37	cemerick	consider:
07:37	cemerick	,(.replaceAll "hello\nthere" "\\n" "")
07:37	clojurebot	"hellothere"
07:37	cemerick	That's just using the replaceAll method on the java.lang.String class
07:38	cemerick	If you wanted to use sequences with remove, you would need to do:
07:39	cemerick	,(apply str (remove #(= \newline %) "hello\nthere"))
07:39	clojurebot	"hellothere"
07:39	cemerick	todun: you were getting the error because `remove` is a function that takes a function as its first argument; you were passing a character
07:40	cemerick	(remove f sequence) is the equivalent of (filter (complement f) sequence), FWIW
07:41	todun	cemerick: ok. so I didn't even need to do filter all along
07:41	todun	I was repeating myself.
07:41	cemerick	well, you can filter if you want, but the result of that is a sequence, not a string
07:41	todun	, (defn zg [w] (filter (fn [w] (= w (not(char (range 32 126))))) (remove (char 10) w)) )
07:41	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
07:42	cemerick	,(filter #(not= \newline %) "hello\nthere")
07:42	clojurebot	(\h \e \l \l \o ...)
07:42	todun	cemerick: what does % do in that?
07:42	gfredericks	cemerick: clojure ruins the example again :)
07:42	todun	is it like a wildcard?
07:42	cemerick	todun: you can't define var in the bot; only non-side-effecting expressions work.
07:42	gfredericks	s/clojure/clojurebot
07:42	lazybot	<gfredericks> cemerick: clojurebot ruins the example again :)
07:43	cemerick	todun: that's the short form of an anonymous fn.
07:43	todun	gfredericks: :)
07:43	todun	cemerick: ok. good to know.
07:43	cemerick	,(filter (fn [char] (not= char \newline)) "hello\nthere")
07:43	clojurebot	(\h \e \l \l \o ...)
07:43	cemerick	to illustrate remove:
07:43	cemerick	,(remove #(not= \newline %) "hello\nthere")
07:43	clojurebot	(\newline)
07:44	cemerick	,(filter (complement #(not= \newline %)) "hello\nthere")
07:44	clojurebot	(\newline)
07:45	todun	cemerick: allot of new syntax. I'm testing as youshow.
07:45	todun	*you show
07:46	cemerick	I think I'm done with show and tell, back to work for me. :-)
07:46	cemerick	todun: There's lots of helpful people here, ask when you have questions/trouble. Make sure you keep reading, though.
07:47	todun	cemerick: thanks for clearly that up.
07:47	todun	cemerick: keep reading. always. but how can one escape the allure of coding first?
07:47	todun	*clearing
07:47	cemerick	Goes hand in hand, of course. :-)
07:48	todun	:)
07:48	archaic	hi just a quick question before I go digging is there an easy way to autodetect log files coming into a folder?
07:50	cemerick	archaic: In JDK 7, yes. Otherwise, no; polling, IIRC.
07:54	archaic	ahh java.nio.file?
07:58	cemerick	sounds right, yeah
08:11	fdaoud	good morning
08:11	fdaoud	I'm wondering why this doesn't work:
08:12	fdaoud	,((first '(+ 1 1)) 38 4)
08:12	clojurebot	4
08:12	ljos	Hi - Where did import-static go?
08:12	ljos	in clojure 1.3
08:12	fdaoud	can anyone help? How do I call + after getting a hold of it from a list?
08:15	ljos	fdaoud: I think you should be able to get it from the list and it should call, clojure being a lisp-1.
08:16	fdaoud	ljos: I think you're right, but how?
08:16	khaliG	you're getting back the symbol + not the function
08:22	gfredericks	fdaoud: you'd have to eval the symbol
08:22	gfredericks	i.e., ((eval (first '(+ 1 2))) 3 4)
08:23	fdaoud	,((eval (first '(+ 1 2))) 3 4)
08:23	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
08:23	gfredericks	fdaoud: and the bots don't let you do eval :)
08:23	gfredericks	it makes them skiddish
08:24	fdaoud	gfredericks: right :) well thanks.. but so is there a way without eval? 4clojure won't let you do eval either ;)
08:24	gfredericks	is this to actually solve a 4clojure problem or just some weird golfing thing you guys are always doing?
08:24	raek	fdaoud: ((first (list + 1 1)) 38 4)
08:25	khaliG	maybe you could implement scheme first? :P
08:25	fdaoud	,((first (list + 1 1)) 38 4)
08:25	clojurebot	42
08:25	raek	now the first element in the list is not the symbol "+", but the function that "+" refers to
08:26	fdaoud	raek: is that different because in the first case, + is a symbol, and in the second case, it is the actual function?
08:26	raek	yes
08:26	gfredericks	at this point why don't we just simplify it to ##(+ 38 4)? Rather unclear constraints here
08:26	lazybot	⇒ 42
08:26	fdaoud	raek: right, you beat me to it :)
08:26	raek	'list' is an ordinary function that evaluates its arguments
08:26	gfredericks	(def + (comp - (partial - 0)))
08:27	fdaoud	gfredericks: call it a learning experience :)
08:27	gfredericks	fdaoud: okay :)
08:27	fdaoud	thanks raek
08:27	raek	in my experience, quote is mostly used in macros in clojure
08:27	fdaoud	,((first [+ 3 4]) 38 4)
08:27	clojurebot	42
08:28	fdaoud	makes sense now
08:28	raek	fdaoud: yeah, [..] instead of (list ..) is how you usually write collecions constants in code in clojure
08:30	fdaoud	raek: so say you are given '(+ 3 4) by a caller. How do you go from the symbol "+" to the function "+"? there is no other way than with eval?
08:30	gfredericks	fdaoud: that's a weird situation in the first place because + could mean different things in different namespaces
08:30	ljos	What is the easiest way to get public static variables into clojure from java? I'm getting a bit sic of this: (. Class var) . I was looking into import static, but I can't seem to find the package it is a part of in Clojure 1.3.
08:30	gfredericks	fdaoud: so it depends on what you want it to mean
08:31	raek	fdaoud: that is a very unusual situation, but yes either you have to use eval, or you have to write a function that interprets that data
08:31	kzar	I have the contents of file as a string, is there a way to make a java.io.File object or InputStream from it without saving it to disk as an actual file?
08:31	kzar	(Those are what clutch requires to add an attachment)
08:31	raek	fdaoud: if you want to delay the evaluation of a piece of code, wrap it in a (fn [] ...) instead
08:31	khaliG	fdaoud, i think in CL the symbol is a function designator so you can funcall it all the same. Not in Clojure though..
08:32	raek	kzar: yes. use java.io.StringReader
08:32	fdaoud	I'm looking at http://www.4clojure.com/problem/121
08:32	fdaoud	sorry I should have said that up front!
08:33	gfredericks	fdaoud: if you don't like eval and you have a small set of symbols you need to resolve you could create a map for it: {'+ +, '- -, ...}
08:33	raek	fdaoud: in that case, I think you should write a function that interprets the expression
08:33	fdaoud	gfredericks: it's 4clojure that doesn't like eval, not me
08:33	gfredericks	fdaoud: true :)
08:35	raek	kzar: if you need an InputStream, you can call (.getBytes the-string desired-encoding) and pass the result of that to the constructor of ByteArrayInputStream
08:35	fdaoud	gfredericks, raek: I think you're right, I'd have to write a function that interprets the expression, and actually map the symbols to the functions
08:36	fdaoud	I'll have a go at it.. thanks for your help!
08:39	kzar	raek: Gotya, thanks
08:40	fdaoud	ljos: I think (Class/var) works
08:40	fdaoud	,(Math/PI)
08:40	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
08:40	raek	,Math/PI
08:40	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
08:41	raek	for some reason, reading static fields and calling static methods have interchangable syntaxes
08:41	raek	but I prefer the notation without the parens for fields
08:42	fdaoud	right
08:42	fdaoud	I wouldn't use parens, my mistake
08:42	fdaoud	,(* 2 Math/PI)
08:42	clojurebot	6.283185307179586
08:44	gfredericks	(def tau (* 2 Math/PI))
08:45	ljos	fdaud: thank you.
08:47	jcromartie	ooh...
08:47	jcromartie	GZIPInputStream
09:00	ljos	hmmm.. I get an illegalArgumentException when I do Class/var. It says "no matching method".
09:01	ljos	hepp. probably somthing wrong on my end :)
09:07	bendlas	Hey, anybody else got troubles fetching [org.clojure/java.data "0.0.1-SNAPSHOT"] over maven?
09:24	micahmartin	I'm stumped on this one….
09:24	micahmartin	How can I set metadata on a var inside a macro?
09:25	micahmartin	(declare ^:dynamic foo) works, but inside a macro the "^:dynamic" is stripped
09:26	micahmartin	… and the resulting var doesn't have the :dynamic metadata set
09:27	micahmartin	Any ideas?
09:32	duck1123	there was a thread about this recently
09:32	duck1123	you have to set the dynamic manually,
09:33	duck1123	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/d5efd00c699f73a7/e59708f4c7b8e83f?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=dynamic#e59708f4c7b8e83f
09:34	duck1123	this might be a slightly different issue
09:50	micahmartin	Good morning?
09:50	amcnamara	true
09:57	llasram	micahmartin: Are you sure that's the exact problem you're having?
09:58	llasram	,(do (defmacro keep-meta [name] `(def ~name nil)) (keep-meta ^:dynamic example) (.isDynamic #'example))
09:58	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
09:58	llasram	Stupid bot
09:58	llasram	Anyway, I get get 'true' with 1.3
09:58	gfredericks	yeah, stupid bot.
09:58	llasram	The metadata is attached to the symbol, which moves unmodified through the macro
09:59	llasram	If you're generating a new symbol, you need to copy the metadata manually using with-meta
09:59	llasram	gfredericks: Ok, I'm sure it's a very intelligent bot. :-)
09:59	gfredericks	:)
10:00	gfredericks	are the bots intelligent???
10:00	lazybot	gfredericks: Yes, 100% for sure.
10:01	llasram	haha. awesome
10:01	micahmartin	llasram: Maybe I can take that approach and add the metadata to the symbol first.
10:02	llasram	micahmartin: Oh, are you trying to have the macro add :dynamic true to the metadata?
10:02	llasram	You can use with-meta for that too
10:03	micahmartin	yes… here's the src:
10:03	micahmartin	(defmacro with [name & body]
10:03	micahmartin	`(do
10:03	micahmartin	(let [with-component# (new-with '~name (fn [] ~@body))]
10:03	micahmartin	(declare ^:dynamic ~(symbol name))
10:03	micahmartin	with-component#)))
10:05	llasram	micahmartin: Ahhh, yeah. So the ^ metadata stuff hapens at read time, so it's getting applied to the (symbol name) form, not the macro-expansion time result of that
10:05	micahmartin	yeah.. that's what I found out.
10:07	khaliG	so what are people using clojure for? i'm getting the feeling it's mainly used for web stuff, is this correct?
10:07	llasram	micahmartin: I think it'll work if you try instead something like: (declare ~(with-meta name (assoc (meta name) :dynamic true)))
10:07	micahmartin	llasram: What you suggested worked. I added the meta data to the symbol before passing it into declare
10:07	llasram	micahmartin: Awesome!
10:07	micahmartin	llasram: Thanks!
10:08	llasram	khaliG: That's a question I have too, although I don't have the same impression re: web stuff. Well, beyond the fact that "web stuff" is most of the dev work going on right now, and thus is most of what anyone is doing with anything
10:14	jcromartie	OK this is insane: http://www.jamesjohnson.me/2011/10/05/beginners-guide-to-programming.html
10:14	jcromartie	I have to imagine that a basic (sans Emacs) introduction to Clojure and Compojure would be simpler
10:18	llasram	I think the lack of a builtin (or sane) package management on OS X is the real hassle there. I think full-and-honest "get setup from scratch" instructions for anything on OS X or Windows are going to look like that
10:30	andrewclegg	hey, does anyone know if it's possible to customize the thread pool used by futures?
10:36	andrewclegg	n/m, I found a good blog on this (thanks raek)
10:39	jcrossley3	andrewclegg: url?
10:39	andrewclegg	http://blog.raek.se/2011/01/24/executors-in-clojure/
10:41	jcromartie	llasram: except Rails has a ton of dependencies and hand-wavy magic
10:41	jcromartie	in order to get a n00b up
10:41	andrewclegg	more like a manual way to do the same thing though, rather than a way to control futures and send-off
10:42	lnostdal_	are there better ways of dealing with (manipulating) arguments than e.g. this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125362 .. ?
10:43	jcrossley3	andrewclegg: thx
10:45	lnostdal_	(show-ModalDialog some-widget :js-options {:width 800} :on-close (alert "dialog was closed") ;; the goal is to add :modal :true to :js-options so it'll look like {:width 800 :modal :true} when passed on to show-Dialog
10:48	andrewclegg	I guess if an exception happens in some code being run by a future, it'll pop out when I deref the future, right?
10:49	gfredericks	,@(future (throw (new Exception "POP!")))
10:49	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.Exception: POP!>
10:49	gfredericks	in a nested sort of way apparently
10:49	lnostdal_	(let [later (future (/ 42 0))] (Thread/sleep 1000) @later)
10:49	lnostdal_	yeah
10:51	andrewclegg	hah, yeah, should've just tested it myself :-)
10:51	raek	andrewclegg: yes, unless you have a try/catch block in the future body
10:51	andrewclegg	still getting used to how quickly you can test these hypotheses in clj...
10:51	raek	so futures are not ideal for background threads...
10:52	gu	hi, can someone please solve a doubt about leiningen? it is exposed here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7787911/compojure-lein-ring-in-production
10:52	raek	*background threads that should stay alive indefinitely
10:52	gfredericks	raek: are they also bad for that because they hog resources from the thread pool? Or do I misunderstand how that works?
10:53	ThreeCups	I'm new to clojure. I'm using congomongo. I'm trying to figure out the pattern/idiom for getting/using a connection to the mongodb server in a thread-safe way. congomongo has a method make-connection that returns a connection map that is to be used with a with-mongo macro (or a set-connection! method, but I'm not using this). I have a library/file/namespace (not sure which word is best here)...
10:53	ThreeCups	...where I do something like (def db (make-connection ...)). My understanding is that db is now a Var and it will be shared by all threads. Is this correct? If that's the case, then I just need to be sure that db is a thread-safe connection.
10:54	raek	clojure uses a thread pool of unbounded size for futures, so it's safe to execute long processes in it
10:54	jcrossley3	raek: what is the ideal for bg threads that must stay up indefinitely?
10:54	raek	hrm, well the default error handling mechanism is not ideal...
10:55	gfredericks	raek: okay, good to know
10:55	raek	I usually end up with somehting like this: https://gist.github.com/1098366
10:55	ipostelnik	jcrossley3, the real question is what do you want to happen when your background code throws an exception
10:56	ipostelnik	you can wrap your code in a try/catch that swallows (or logs) exceptions and recurs to the start of the method
10:56	raek	...but the default error handling mechanism for java.lang.Threads (print stacktrace to stdout) might not be what you want either
10:57	raek	you should always catch exceptions at the top level anyway (e.g. to log them)
10:58	gfredericks	(defmacro cautious-future ...)
10:58	raek	in another thread than the repl, you don't have the repl to catch them for you...
10:58	cemerick	technomancy: aside from my snark, what really happened? Does ubuntu re-repackage stuff?
11:00	jcrossley3	ipostelnik: i thought raek was implying there was a better abstraction than futures to use for long-running tasks, but i gather he meant "better than a future using default error-handling"
11:01	raek	for initial development, using j.l.Thread might be simpler for long-running background threads, since the default error handling prints to stdout instead of saving the exception until you dereference the future
11:02	jcrossley3	raek: cool, thx
11:03	raek	executors and their Futures have richer apis, though
11:03	raek	(e.g. you can query it if it's still running)
11:08	raek	if you send stuff to the swing thread for execution, you have the same problem with exceptions
11:09	raek	so rather than trying to make a safe variant of one of the threading apis (e.g. future), maybe you do need to have a "safety net" macro that you can easily wrap code in
11:30	todun	when I try to compile my code in emacs, I get this: C-c C-k is undefined. I've restarted emacs but still get this error. Anyone else experience this? thanks.
11:35	ljos	Does clojure have a -1 operator like CL?
11:35	gfredericks	what does that do?
11:35	cemerick	dec
11:35	gfredericks	oh it does that
11:35	cemerick	(so I presume)
11:36	cemerick	I suppose it might negate, in which case (partial * -1)
11:36	gfredericks	I also thought he could have meant ##(- 7), but dec seems much more plausible
11:36	lazybot	⇒ -7
11:36	cemerick	…if you don't care about boxing
11:36	ljos	I think dec is what I am looking for.
11:37	cemerick	gfredericks: heh, thats a lot more sensible, as long as you've got only one arg :-\|
11:37	gfredericks	cemerick: how often do you define multi-arg negation functions? :)
11:38	gfredericks	(partial * -1) also does weird stuff if you give more than one arg
11:38	cemerick	gfredericks: You don't, but - is multi-arg :-)
11:38	cemerick	true enough
11:38	gfredericks	(fn [x] (- x)) to be safe
11:38	cemerick	this is why I try to avoid quickest-keyboard-in-the-west irc conversations
11:39	cemerick	(and yet…)
11:39	gfredericks	:)
11:44	khaliG	it would help if ljos got the right function which is 1- not -1 :)
11:51	carllerche	technomancy: is it sane to try to run leiningen w/ 1.3 projects right now?
11:54	andrewclegg	umm... I'm trying to make a vector of ints (not longs) to pass into java
11:54	andrewclegg	or rather to put into an arraylist to pass into java
11:55	andrewclegg	but I'm getting an arraylist of longs
11:55	andrewclegg	(def resources (conj (vector-of :int) 1 2 3))
11:56	andrewclegg	then (def foo (ArrayList. resources))
11:56	andrewclegg	would've thought that would give me an ArrayList<Long> but they're Integers -- any ideas?
11:56	duck1123	carllerche: lein works fine with 1.3 projects
11:57	duck1123	lein still uses it's own version though
11:57	carllerche	I'm getting a thrown exception when I run `lein test`… I submitted an issue
12:00	pjstadig	andrewclegg: you mean you would've thought that would give you an ArrayList<Integer>?
12:01	andrewclegg	err yeah, sorry
12:01	andrewclegg	reverse of what I said
12:01	pjstadig	well generics are a fabrication of the java compiler
12:01	andrewclegg	I'm after an ArrayList<Integer>
12:01	pjstadig	so it's really an array list of objects
12:01	andrewclegg	ok, well I'm after an arraylist with ints in :-)
12:01	pjstadig	the things you're putting in are Integers
12:01	pjstadig	andrewclegg: which version of clojure?
12:01	andrewclegg	1.3
12:02	andrewclegg	longs by default now right?
12:02	pjstadig	so you need to do something like (def resources (conj (vector-of :int) (int 1) (int 2) (int 3)))
12:02	pjstadig	yeah longs are default
12:02	andrewclegg	oh, I assumed the (vector-of :int) would create a vector that only accepted ints, for some reason
12:03	andrewclegg	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/vector-of makes it look like that
12:05	pjstadig	i've never used vector-of
12:07	andrewclegg	,(.getClass (int 3))
12:07	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
12:07	andrewclegg	wtf? ^
12:07	andrewclegg	,(.getClass (short 3))
12:07	clojurebot	java.lang.Short
12:07	andrewclegg	(sorry)
12:08	andrewclegg	why does (int 3) return a long?
12:08	pjstadig	https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure-dev/1kkjqq8Yois/E0nsEY1XcEAJ
12:09	pjstadig	hmm
12:09	pjstadig	thought that might be relevant, but maybe it isnt
12:09	hiredman	andrewclegg: do you have some kind of actual problem?
12:10	andrewclegg	hiredman: sadly yes. trying to construct an ArrayList of Integers to pass into a Java method
12:11	dnolen	andrewclegg: int does not return a long.
12:11	andrewclegg	so I see
12:11	hiredman	andrewclegg: then create some integers
12:11	dnolen	andrewclegg: int casts to a primitive int.
12:11	pjstadig	andrewclegg: you may just skip the primitives then
12:11	pjstadig	,(map type (java.util.ArrayList. [(Integer/valueOf 1)]))
12:11	clojurebot	(java.lang.Integer)
12:12	andrewclegg	ok, thanks
12:16	andrewclegg	that worked -- thanks everyone
12:16	gfredericks	cemerick: there's a stray "&" in your new blog post, in the code snippet below "so let's have it:"
12:22	cemerick	gfredericks: thanks, fixed
12:23	gfredericks	\o/
12:35	ipostelnik	in lein, is it possible to include env variables in the jar manifest ?
12:35	ipostelnik	I'm trying to get the build number into the manifest
12:38	technomancy	cemerick: apparently the packaging for asm changed in debian unstable, and the corresponding fixes for lein didn't get synced into ubuntu
12:38	technomancy	something getting split into multiple jars
12:39	zilti	"Write a function which allows you to create function compositions. The parameter list should take a variable number of functions, and create a function applies them from right-to-left." That does mean that I have to do (apply last second-to-last) right? "Wrong number of args (0) passed"
12:39	cemerick	technomancy: so it wasn't actually a repackaging
12:39	technomancy	well... clojure bundles its own asm to prevent things like this
12:39	cemerick	wait, why is asm relevant at all?
12:39	cemerick	Right, that's what I was getting at.
12:40	technomancy	but they had to undo that to fit with policy
12:40	cemerick	waitaminute :-)
12:40	cemerick	the clojure package on debian has asm ripped out of it?
12:40	technomancy	it's actually not lein-specific; anything using the clojure package is broket
12:40	technomancy	I think so =\
12:40	cemerick	:-D
12:40	cemerick	oy vey
12:41	technomancy	total culture clash
12:43	cemerick	Not sure it's a culture thing.
12:43	cemerick	What if Clojure shipped with modified asm?
12:44	cemerick	(probably wouldn't be allowed into the official repositories, I suppose)
12:44	technomancy	well, if they called it out as an explicit fork probably would be fine
12:44	technomancy	it's just that a lot of people bundle stuff like that out of laziness, specifically because they don't have a good dependency mechanism
12:45	technomancy	and that's what the policy is meant to prevent
12:45	TimMc	What is the asm?
12:45	technomancy	TimMc: bytecode generation library
12:46	zilti	TimMc: Apache asm is a library to modify java bytecode.
12:46	TimMc	ok
12:46	hiredman	it
12:46	hiredman	asm is not an apache project as far as I know
12:46	hiredman	apache has something else
12:46	hiredman	bcl?
12:47	hiredman	bcel
12:47	joegallo	i think bcel is built on asm
12:47	cemerick	bytecode engineering library, yeah?
12:47	hiredman	joegallo: interesting
12:47	joegallo	or maybe i'm confusing bcel and cglib
12:48	joegallo	i got it backwards
12:48	joegallo	cglib uses bcel
12:49	joegallo	(or so claims the cglib website)
12:50	joegallo	looking at the maven info, that claim seems to be false
12:51	TimMc	"SparseStringArrayVectorDeserializer" <- just seen in codebase
12:52	babilen	cemerick: I guess that in that case the clojure asm would have to be released and packaged seperately
12:54	cemerick	yeah
12:54	cemerick	babilen: I generally don't think it's right for downstream packagers to mess with whatever original authors have done.
12:55	cemerick	though I understand the motivations / priorities, despite the smoke I throw about it.
12:55	babilen	cemerick: I beg to differ, but that is probably due to the same culture clash :)
12:55	technomancy	anyway thanks to babilen it does work fine in debian. it's just that ubuntu goofed up.
12:56	TimMc	Nothing's new there. -.-
12:57	cemerick	babilen: do you differ with my opinion, or the notion that I understand the motivations? ;-)
12:57	TimMc	<-- increasingly pissed-off Ubuntu user
12:57	babilen	cemerick: hehe, no :)
12:57	babilen	cemerick: I mean the opinion, not your understanding
12:58	cemerick	babilen: I can reasonably believe either! :-D
12:58	cemerick	I'm JVM-centric, so what I care about is likely always going to run counter to distro / repository maintainers.
12:59	hiredman	jvm on the metal!
12:59	cemerick	still in the lab, no?
13:00	babilen	Probably, even though I believe that having 1000 identical instances of the same library on one system is not necessarily a good thing. But anyway, we have to live with those different cultures and the packaging tools ease a lot of the pain that is associated with it.
13:00	technomancy	I'm ok with tweaks like that for application-level packages like lein and its dependencies. I would balk if developers were hacking against it, but they're not; they're getting clojure directly from mvn central.
13:01	technomancy	libraries for end user applications vs libraries for developers are vastly different use cases; most people tend to lump them together.
13:01	babilen	+1
13:01	gfredericks	TimMc: I just tried to upgrade 11.04 -> 11.10 last night. Looked at it this morning and it had bogged down on a download task because the wifi connection had died for some reason. Couldn't turn the connection back on even by plugging in ethernet.
13:07	carllerche	Are there any guarantees regarding the key order when iterating a map?
13:07	TimMc	gfredericks: But it keeps getting more shiny! At least they are working on that.
13:07	TimMc	carllerche: No.
13:07	gfredericks	TimMc: I'm strongly considering giving up on that upgrade and installing debian
13:08	gfredericks	carllerche: I think only that (keys) returns the same order as (vals)
13:08	nickmbailey	carllerche: you can use a sorted map
13:09	gfredericks	TimMc: if "shiny" means "GUI I don't like" and "perpetually buggy" then I can do without it
13:09	technomancy	gfredericks: I tried that a few months ago. Found the polish to be lacking, but I feel like I have a lot more in common with the target Debian user.
13:10	gfredericks	technomancy: so you're content with debian?
13:10	cemerick	technomancy: is lein an application or a library for authors of plugins?
13:11	technomancy	gfredericks: no, I ended up going back. the attitude towards non-free drivers required for basic functionality pissed me off, plus there were a few bugs with the USB auto-mounting stuff.
13:11	technomancy	cemerick: good question. I don't have a great answer right now, but 2.0 will definitely address that.
13:12	technomancy	cemerick: I briefly considered retroactively explicitly defining a public API, but I think for 1.x that's a lost cause.
13:12	cemerick	technomancy: Yeah, I know. :-) That was a weak rhetorical challenge to the notion of library management being different for apps than libraries.
13:13	raek	carllerche: only that (keys m) and (vals m) will traverse the etries in the same order
13:13	technomancy	cemerick: I was hoping not to get called out on that since I realized it was a bit sloppy =)
13:15	technomancy	seancorfield: do the java.jdbc tests require a local mysql server?
13:16	Raynes	I hate new releases.
13:16	gfredericks	Raynes: only old releases from now on!
13:16	Raynes	It's never about updating your own projects. It's about updating everyone elses!
13:16	Raynes	You're all lazy, you know. All of you.
13:16	Raynes	Should be ashamed.
13:18	chouser	I think I'm still unwilling to accept that making code public means I'm promising to maintain it forever.
13:18	chouser	Maybe that's naive of me.
13:18	technomancy	chouser: that's what 0.x.0 releases are for! =)
13:19	chouser	I thought maybe having no release, and just code on github would be sufficiently standoffish. But no, I've gotten dinged for that too, with "difficulty to install" and "poor docs" added to the out-of-dateness complaint.
13:20	technomancy	chouser: that's usually just a sign that your code is compelling enough that people are willing to put up with more crap to use it. =)
13:21	chouser	heh. I guess that's the silver lining.
13:21	technomancy	maybe if you start threatening to hand out commit rights that would put a damper on things.
13:22	chouser	ha!
13:22	technomancy	it's worked all right for me on swank
13:22	technomancy	this is about finger tree, right?
13:22	chouser	technomancy: ah, but not lein, now has it. I bet you have a queue full of well-meant patches demanding your attention there...
13:23	chouser	technomancy: oh, I think finger trees are ok. No, data.xml needs love but I'm just too worried about my conj talk to give it any time.
13:23	technomancy	chouser: related observation: the less polished the overall experience, the more likely people are to think they can help.
13:24	technomancy	if you come across as having it all together, it's more inviting for users but sometimes a bit less for contributors
13:24	Raynes	You're worried about your talk? Seriously? You could walk up to the microphone and fart and people would applaud. I'm the one who has to worry.
13:24	technomancy	(probably not consciously)
13:25	chouser	Raynes: goodness, that sounds harder than anything I'm considering.
13:25	gfredericks	"Audible Finger Trees"
13:25	babilen	technomancy: Hmm, btw. Do you have an ETA for the 2.0 release? (Just want to plan accordingly)
13:26	technomancy	babilen: if it's usable (not released) in 6 months I will be surprised.
13:26	technomancy	I do plan on at least one more 1.x release in the next 2 months or so, but that will be pretty minor.
13:26	babilen	technomancy: Wonderful
13:27	technomancy	babilen: of course I keep thinking "this will be the last 1.x" release and keep being wrong, so be aware of that. =)
13:29	Raynes	cake should be the Chrome to your 2010 firefox and start releasing things every 3 days.
13:30	babilen	technomancy: That is all fine, but I have this feeling that the 2.0 release will take a bit more packaging time than all the 1.x ones. Just want to plan accordingly so the version in the repos does not lag behind.
13:37	zilti	What are the big new things planned for 2.0?
13:40	Raynes	zilti: I expect that 2.0 will park your car for you.
13:41	technomancy	zilti: there's a thread on it here: http://groups.google.com/group/leiningen/browse_thread/thread/1223cd092b83f007
13:41	technomancy	zilti: the big things are switching the underlying mvn infrastructure and moving towards running more code in a single process
13:41	technomancy	as well as a better split between internals and public API
13:42	zilti	Thanks. Well, parking my car is a nice gimmick, but I don't have one. Damn. Now I have to buy one. ;)
13:45	cemerick	chouser, Raynes: we have to talk at the Conj? I thought I was entering a raffle.
13:45	Raynes	You should have seen the look on my face when I was told otherwise.
13:46	ibdknox	I entered the raffle ;)
13:47	ghiu	why doesn't the quote work? (let [] (-> 3 (+ 2))) => (let [x '(+ 2)] (-> 3 x))
13:47	gfredericks	wow
13:47	gfredericks	that's creative
13:47	gfredericks	(-> 3 x) will immediately "expand" to (x 3)
13:47	cemerick	ibdknox: the only contest where entrants aren't sure whether they want to win or not :-P
13:48	fliebel	cemerick: re partial et all: Yuk, nested calls will be ugly, right?
13:48	cemerick	fliebel: Don't think so. Where?
13:48	ibdknox	cemerick, haha it's true.. damn those double-edged swords
13:49	ghiu	gfredericks: because it's a macro, right?
13:49	fliebel	cemerick: What you said in point one.
13:50	raek	ghiu: (let [x '(+ 2)] (-> 3 x)) = (let [x '(+ 2)] (-> 3 (x))) = (let [x '(+ 2)] (x 3)) = ('(+ 2) 3)
13:50	cemerick	fliebel: Right, they're a problem, if you don't put each fn definition within a closure that provides references to all of the original functions.
13:50	raek	ghiu: '(+ 2) is a list, and you can't call a list as a function
13:50	cemerick	(which I'm doing at the moment in clutch)
13:51	Raynes	cemerick: I read that as 'church'. I was about to ask you if you were imbuing your code with the holy spirit.
13:51	fliebel	cemerick: What if you take it a step further and gulp walk the AST to replace all calls with the partial one?
13:51	chouser	It doesn't help that I'm pretty sure that, of all the people dabbling with ClojureScript, I've done only the least interesting things.
13:52	cemerick	fliebel: That's what I foolishly started doing. It's not fun. :-)
13:52	hiredman	you want letmacro
13:52	fliebel	It's kinda like doto.
13:52	hiredman	well, no
13:53	hiredman	fliebel: that won't work
13:53	srid	,(clojure.java.shell/sh "ls -l")
13:53	zilti	Can someone help me? I don't know what's wrong with this: https://gist.github.com/1293255
13:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.java.shell>
13:53	srid	fails. not sure why.
13:53	hiredman	fliebel: I assume you are talking about cemerick's blog post?
13:53	srid	,(slurp (.getInputStream (.exec (Runtime/getRuntime) "ls -l"))) ;; this works
13:53	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission <<ALL FILES>> execute)>
13:53	cemerick	Raynes: he lays me down in green threads, he replicates my databases.
13:53	fliebel	hiredman: yes
13:53	Raynes	Amen.
13:53	srid	clojure.java.shell/sh uses Runtime.exec as per documentation, but it is behaving differently
13:54	hiredman	fliebel: walking the ast will get you lexical changes, just like if you lexically shadowed the names, but won't work dynamically
13:54	cemerick	Raynes: We're all going to hell. ;-)
13:54	hiredman	(with-whatever (foo))
13:54	raek	srid: have you tried this? (sh "ls" "-l")
13:54	hiredman	at this point you may as well use the state or reader monad
13:55	hiredman	:/
13:55	srid	raek: oh? I thought the arguments (after "sh") must be one of :in, :out, :dir or :env - http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.shell-api.html
13:55	Raynes	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.shell-api.html
13:56	Raynes	I'm not entirely certain how, but it might be useful to make clojurebot throw down a snarky but helpful remark when people link to richhickey.github.com/clojure
13:57	Raynes	Or perhaps just a helpful one.
13:57	fliebel	&(letfn [(foo [conf bar] (println conf bar)) (bar [conf baz] (println conf baz))] (doto {:aap "noot"} (foo 1) (bar 2)))
13:57	lazybot	⇒ {:aap noot} 1 {:aap noot} 2 {:aap "noot"}
13:58	srid	raek: i have my wrapper that then calls `(sh cmd args :return-map true) :out))` but this is incorrect as `args` is a list of arguments. how would I fix this? (previously I did not have to pass 'args' at all, and it worked)
13:58	srid	(the wrapper accepts both cmd and args as parameter -- [cmd & args]
13:59	seancorfield	technomancy: no, the java.jdbc tests don't require a local mysql server - unless you add :mysql to the list of DBs to test in test_jdbc.clj
14:00	gfredericks	I don't imagine there's an easy way to do a 'lein checkouts'-equivalent setup with this maven project that depends on a lein project is there?
14:00	fliebel	hiredman, cemerick: Works, right? ^^
14:01	cemerick	fliebel: sure, but…so?
14:01	technomancy	seancorfield: cool; thanks
14:02	technomancy	seancorfield: in general, the tests against the in-process DBs are sufficient?
14:02	fliebel	cemerick: Hm, dunno. Not flexible enough I guess, but you can apply a couple of db fns that way with the conf only in one place.
14:03	seancorfield	i run tests against mysql locally when i'm working on it
14:03	cemerick	fliebel: Right; the same applies to any API that takes "configuration" as a first arg (including clutch 0.3.0 at the moment)
14:03	seancorfield	but the build server does not (yet) have a mysql instance handy
14:03	cemerick	e.g. (doto "localhost" (put-document …) (put-document …) (get-view …)), etc
14:04	seancorfield	eventually i expect it to have more tests against more DBs but it all depends on Clojure/core time to set stuff up around build.clojure.org
14:04	cemerick	doto is just a macro though — certainly not equivalent to dynamic scope
14:04	hiredman	right
14:04	srid	raek: my solution: ((apply sh (flatten [cmd args :return-map true])) :out))
14:04	hiredman	and that is almost exactly the reader monad
14:04	srid	i had to read sh's source to find out how args are being parsed
14:05	cemerick	Being a proper dullard, I've never internalized the use of monad names as identifiers of common patterns.
14:06	fliebel	Okay, you win. Still don't like the fn macro though.
14:06	hiredman	no problem, I am just pointing out where this is heading, in case some wants to make a u-turn
14:06	cemerick	fliebel: sorry, wasn't trying to 'win' :-)
14:07	technomancy	seancorfield: have you seen http://travis-ci.org?
14:07	fliebel	cemerick: Haha, I didn't mean it like that. More like, I don't know anything better.
14:09	fliebel	I'd love to have a perfect solution though.
14:10	hiredman	the reader monad is the state monad without the ability to write new state, so e.g. you have configuration values that you read and those values get passed everywhere
14:14	gfredericks	fliebel: macros writing macros?
14:15	fliebel	gfredericks: Even worse.
14:15	fliebel	What if you wrapped the binding in a trampoline, and converted the whole shebang to CPS, then you could drop out of the binding for inter-api calls.
14:15	fliebel	... maybe
14:15	hiredman	…
14:16	ghiu	guys, i need to do this: (-> mylist (function1 a b) (function2 c d) (function3 e f).. ), but i need to generate dynamically how many functions and their values. what's the way to go?
14:16	cemerick	helluva can of worms I've opened up :-P
14:16	gfredericks	ghiu: do it without a macro
14:16	ghiu	hmmm
14:17	gfredericks	ghiu: use reduce or something like that
14:17	ghiu	ok, i'll try
14:17	ghiu	i've never used macros :$
14:17	seancorfield	technomancy: i had not seen travis... looks very ruby focused?
14:17	ghiu	(i'm on my first week of clojure :P)
14:17	gfredericks	ghiu: -> is a macro
14:17	technomancy	seancorfield: it's primarily ruby, but it has clojure support.
14:18	ghiu	i know what macros are, just i've never written any in clojure
14:18	technomancy	not sure if it'd be appropriate for jdbc, just thought it was interesting
14:18	seancorfield	technomancy: and lots of DB support?
14:18	gfredericks	ghiu: if you have a list of [f args] pairs, you could do (reduce (fn [v [f args]] (apply f v args)) init-val farg-list)
14:18	technomancy	seancorfield: I think so
14:18	seancorfield	i'll put it on my todo list then :)
14:19	fliebel	cemerick: Meh, how many inter-api call do you really use. I think it's fine in practice.
14:20	zilti	What's the eager "equivalent" to map?
14:20	gfredericks	doseq
14:20	gfredericks	sorta
14:20	Raynes	&(doc doall)
14:20	lazybot	⇒ "([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. doall can be used to force any effects. Walks through the ... https://gist.github.com/1293343
14:20	cemerick	fliebel: some alternatives have been suggested in the blog comments and elsewhere. We'll see what percolates up. :-)
14:21	technomancy	seancorfield: are you planning another 0.1.x release before 0.2.0?
14:21	ghiu	gfredericks: i'm trying with reduce then
14:21	ghiu	gfredericks: thanks
14:21	gfredericks	ghiu: yep
14:21	seancorfield	technomancy: probably several
14:21	technomancy	cool
14:22	seancorfield	the 0.1.0 -> 0.2.0 path will be evolving the new API that Clojure/core seem to want
14:22	seancorfield	(don't take that the wrong way: i asked about the path to 1.0.0 releases and they gave some great feedback)
14:23	seancorfield	so consider 0.1.0 the first full stable release of a pure replacement for c.c.sql :)
14:23	technomancy	makes sense
14:25	fliebel	cemerick: Oh, right, I like the generated namespace.
14:26	cemerick	gfredericks has another idea that's much simpler than all the rest, though I've not considered it entirely. He has yet to comment, tho. :-)
14:27	gfredericks	I guess I gotta put it in a gist...no pretty code in the comments, right?
14:28	technomancy	seancorfield: have you considered providing a default mapping for :subprotocol -> :classname?
14:28	technomancy	having to specify both seems like unnecessary boilerplate
14:29	seancorfield	i had not considered that and i agree it sounds like a good idea - JIRA ticket pls!
14:29	technomancy	will do
14:37	gfredericks	cemerick: okay done
14:40	cemerick	gfredericks: the (not (identical? …)) bit was a nice touch. Will think about it, thanks.
14:50	technomancy	seancorfield: JDBC-22 is about inferring :classname and JDBC-21 is about accepting a string arg for the connection parameter. OK to make the latter depend upon the former?
14:50	seancorfield	sure
14:51	seancorfield	thx for the tix!
14:51	technomancy	k, patch is in for 22
14:51	technomancy	no problem
14:58	zakwilson	UnsupportedDataTypeException with Apache Commons Mail is a really nasty little problem. It sure would be nice if there was a good way to send email that never ran in to this.
15:00	zilti	zakwilson: JavaMail?
15:00	zakwilson	I can't remember why I rejected that, but I think it was a good reason.
15:01	zilti	I remember it being dead-easy to use
15:01	zilti	What's the difference between next and rest?
15:02	gfredericks	cemerick: yeah, that was the new thought
15:02	raek	zilti: (next x) is like (seq (rest x))
15:02	seancorfield	technomancy: patch for 22 applied and pushed
15:02	raek	zilti: seq is guaranteed to return nil if the sequence is empty
15:02	jcromartie	,(doc rest)
15:02	zilti	ok thanks
15:02	technomancy	groovay
15:02	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a possibly empty seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument."
15:09	ejackson	is there a way to get the output of (macroexpand-1 ...) into a test ? Any ideas of which libraries I should go trawl to find an example ?
15:09	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(binding [x y] 1))
15:10	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [] (clojure.core/push-thread-bindings (clojure.core/hash-map (var x) y)) (try 1 (finally (clojure.core/pop-thread-bindings))))
15:10	ejackson	hiredman: yes, but in an (is ...) block it doesn't expmand.
15:11	gfredericks	ejackson: (let [form (expand ...)] (is (= form ...)))
15:11	ejackson	gfredericks: nice idea, lemme try that.
15:11	gfredericks	ejackson: is is a macro that can muddle things up, so as long as you do all your macro-ey things outside it should be okay
15:11	ejackson	i already tried passing it through a function in a similar vein
15:12	gfredericks	ejackson: ultimately any test should be reducible to (let [boolean (...)] (is boolean))
15:12	gfredericks	except for error reporting I guess
15:12	ejackson	k
15:14	ejackson	no dice
15:14	ejackson	(let [f (macroexpand-1 '(rel/chain :author))]
15:14	ejackson	(is (= f :x)))
15:14	ejackson	results inFAIL in (test-defrelation) (relation.clj:17)
15:14	ejackson	expected: (= f :x)
15:14	ejackson	actual: (not (= (rel/chain :author) :x))
15:15	gfredericks	that weird.
15:15	ejackson	rel/chain should expand to something like (clojure.core/-> (clojureql.core/table relation.database/db :authors))
15:16	hiredman	is rel/chain really a macro?
15:16	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(x y))
15:16	clojurebot	(x y)
15:16	ejackson	hiredman: yup
15:16	ejackson	(defmacro chain
15:16	ejackson	"This constructs a chain from keywords representing relations. EG
15:16	ejackson	(chain :author :post :comment)"
15:16	ejackson	[base & rest]
15:16	ejackson	`(-> (cql/table db/db ~(rel-to-table base))
15:16	ejackson	~@(map make-ns-qualified (partition 2 1 (cons base rest)))))
15:17	hiredman	please don't paste multiline chunks of text
15:17	ejackson	hiredman: yeah, I'm sorry.
15:17	ejackson	i'm trying to get you guys a github link to that
15:18	ejackson	https://github.com/ejackson/relation/blob/master/src/relation/relation.clj#L145
15:20	ejackson	the failing test in question is at https://github.com/ejackson/relation/blob/master/test/relation/test/relation.clj#L15
15:23	ejackson	the comparison is generated by expanding the macro in the test namespace, so I think its an interaction with the (is macro in clojure.test.
15:28	gfredericks	oh wait
15:28	gfredericks	deftest is a macro too
15:28	gfredericks	try outside that?
15:29	gfredericks	I believe I remember having to do that once
15:29	ejackson	ok.
15:29	ejackson	found something odd, as it does work with -> Perhaps namespaces or something.
15:30	ejackson	https://gist.github.com/1293529 expands correctly
15:33	ejackson	gfredericks: yes, pulling the macroexpand into a (def ...) outside the deftest does work.
15:33	ejackson	thank you.
15:34	gfredericks	ejackson: np; you could even avoid the def with (let [f (macroexpand-1 ...)] (deftest ...))
15:34	ejackson	gfredericks: yes, that's even better.
15:35	ejackson	I'll try chase down the namespace idea
15:36	jweiss	can someone point me in the right direction for clojure1.3 upgrade? looks like c.c.prxml is not being maintained - doesn't look difficult to fix, is there doc on how i get it into the modular contrib? (or is there a replacement for prxml i don't know about)
15:38	amalloy	jweiss: data.xml
15:38	amalloy	no official release as chouser is busy and i am maven-clueless, but it works and a number of people have put private forks on clojars
15:40	ejackson	gfredericks: hm. its to do with require. check out https://gist.github.com/1293529
15:42	gfredericks	ejackson: it sounds like the symbols get resolved in a different namespace for some reason
15:42	gfredericks	no clue why that would happen, but can't think of anything more plausible
15:45	ejackson	gfredericks: ha, solved (not by me !)
15:45	gfredericks	yes?
15:45	ejackson	ns uses an alias for the namespace in requrie
15:45	ejackson	and deftest and is are macros
15:46	ejackson	so if I use syntax unquote, as in (is (= (macroexpand-1 `(rel/min-macro 1)) {:a 1})) then it expands the whole thing
15:46	gfredericks	ejackson: that's what I would expect. I still don't know why that would be required though. Normally you don't have to worry about this when using somebody else's macro
15:47	ejackson	its because rel is an alias
15:47	ejackson	so it doesn't expand properly (or so I'm told)
15:47	gfredericks	i.e., IF indeed the symbols are resolved in another namespace, then backquoting would certainly circumvent the problem. But I still don't know why they would be resolved in another namespace
15:48	gfredericks	ejackson: could you reproduce the behavior using your own macro instead of deftest/is?
15:48	ejackson	lemme try.
15:49	gfredericks	ejackson: try a simple macro like (defmacro rev-form [form] (reverse form))
16:09	ejackson	gfredericks: see the difference in how they expand: https://gist.github.com/1293529
16:13	ejackson	so somewhere along the line ' gives up and gives you just the symbol, whereas ` carries on expanding.
16:14	ejackson	anyway, I'm shattered, catch you all tomorrow.
16:16	gfredericks	oh well. even a mystery.
16:16	gfredericks	s/even/ever
16:20	zilti	Now that's weird:
16:20	zilti	,(some true? '((= 5 5) false false))
16:20	clojurebot	nil
16:20	zilti	,(some true? [(= 5 5) false false])
16:20	clojurebot	true
16:20	hiredman	what is weird?
16:20	gfredericks	zilti: ##(true? '(= 5 5))
16:20	lazybot	⇒ false
16:20	gfredericks	vs ##(true? (= 5 5))
16:20	lazybot	⇒ true
16:21	zilti	,(some true? ((= 5 5) false false)) ;doesn't work
16:21	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
16:21	hiredman	of course not
16:21	gfredericks	zilti: I think what you're trying to do is ##(some true? (list (= 5 5) false false))
16:21	lazybot	⇒ true
16:21	zilti	yeah. Always thought '( is short for (list
16:21	gfredericks	zilti: when you quote the list, everything inside gets quoted too
16:22	gfredericks	zilti: not at all :)
16:22	zilti	Seems like ^^
16:22	gfredericks	'(foo bar) is short for (quote (foo bar))
16:22	zilti	How to unquote btw?
16:22	zilti	inside a '(
16:22	hiredman	stop quoting stuff
16:22	Bronsa	lol
16:22	zilti	lol
16:23	gfredericks	zilti: yeah, if you want a list literal then a vector is almost always a worthy substitute
16:23	gfredericks	,(some true? [(= 5 5) false false])
16:23	clojurebot	true
16:24	zilti	And it is easier to read.
16:24	llasram	,(some true? `(~(= 5 5) false false))
16:24	clojurebot	true
16:24	gfredericks	see you don't want to be messing with tildes
16:25	zilti	except in defmacro I guess
16:25	llasram	Yeah, I agree vectors capture most of the non-mcaro uses for syntax-quote. Just being completionist :-)
16:27	zilti	Is it somehow possible to see the shortest public solution to a 4clojure problem? Codegolf shows me my score and a chart but no way to see other solutions
16:29	robermann	afaik you can see the solutions of "followed" people
16:29	zilti	Yes, but only those?
16:29	robermann	yes
16:29	robermann	i suggest to you darren's solution
16:29	robermann	solutions
16:31	robermann	often they are very short, although not among the more readble imho
16:32	zilti	I've just seen at the tictactoe problem that they also aren't among the "universal solutions" but only solve the exact tests.
16:34	robermann	yes, it can happen :)
16:36	amalloy	zilti: are you talking about one of darren's solutions? i don't think he has any intentionally-incomplete solutions
16:38	zilti	amalloy: Yes, about his solution to problem 73
16:39	zilti	Maybe I just can't read it
16:39	amalloy	zilti: apparently. he solves every possible configuration
16:54	robermann_	anyone here using Midje?
16:54	jweiss	amalloy: do you know if clojure.data.xml supports emitting CDATA?
16:54	amalloy	jweiss: i don't think it does
16:55	jweiss	ah nuts
16:55	amalloy	actually though, i think it may wrap everything in cdata where necessary?
16:56	jweiss	amalloy: i'm giving it prxml-like input and wrapping with sexp-as-element - how should i tell it it's cdata?
16:56	jweiss	i could use a different input i guess
16:56	jweiss	i'll try just removing the cdata tag
16:57	amalloy	jweiss: unless you're trying to hide one xml document inside another as "just some characters, nothing to see here" you should be marking elements as if they were cdata
16:58	jweiss	amalloy: i'm just trying to put a stacktrace in a junit-style xml doc
16:58	jweiss	all the other junit-style xml out i've seen uses cdata for that
16:58	amalloy	god, junit has xml stacktraces? i guess i'm glad i never got that deep
16:59	jweiss	amalloy: no, it's not xml formatted
16:59	jweiss	just the text
16:59	jweiss	but it's inside a <failure > </failure> tag
16:59	amalloy	jweiss: you shouldn't need to mark it as cdata unless it has stuff inside it which could be interpreted as xml. and my understanding is that data.xml will escape it in that case
17:00	jweiss	amalloy: if you don't mark it as cdata it loses all the whitespace formatting, doesn't it?
17:01	jweiss	xml is normally rendered with some kind space-normalizing function, unless you use cdata
17:02	jweiss	i don't think i have a choice here anyway, because stacktrace messages could have & or < in them
17:03	amalloy	jweiss: (a) reference for claim re cdata/whitespace interaction? all i can find says that cdata just prevvents interpretation of & and <
17:03	amalloy	(b) like i said, i believe data.xml escapes those for you if necessary; have you tried and found that it doesn't?
17:04	jweiss	amalloy: i could be wrong about the whitespace thing. my example doesn't have those characters in it, let me try
17:05	jweiss	amalloy: it does escape them using < etc
17:05	jweiss	still, i still maintain the proper thing to do here is not to have the xml parser parsing these stacktraces, which is what cdata is for
17:06	amalloy	nod that's probably best, although doesn't seem very high-importance to me
17:08	jweiss	amalloy: yeah, i would guess many people who want to parse/emit xml don't need it
17:08	amalloy	jweiss: if a feature/todo list existed, cdata would be high on it
17:12	zilti	I get a "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string" in my REPL when trying to use clojure.string/split, why that?
17:13	gfredericks	anybody here on ubuntu 11.10 and knows how to alt-tab between same-app windows?
17:13	gfredericks	zilti: maybe you have to require it?
17:13	amalloy	zilti: (require 'clojure.string)
17:18	zilti	amalloy: I tried that. Gives me a "classnotfound" as well
17:18	amalloy	you forgot the ' probably
17:19	zilti	amalloy: No, I didn't
17:19	zilti	Oh wait, no, require gives me nil
17:21	zilti	Well ok it works now. No way to directly access something in another namespace without "require"?
17:22	amalloy	you can't run code what ain't been loaded
17:23	joegallo	the way i think of it is that require says "load this file and make it available in memory as a namespace"
17:23	joegallo	so, no, you can't reference a namespace without at least requiring it, because there wouldn't be anything to reference
17:26	zilti	joegallo: Still too much java/scala in my head :)
17:27	joegallo	no worries, it takes a while to get the pieces to fit such that it seems natural
17:41	patchwork	hey all, trying to use this geocoding library with lein: http://clojars.org/geocoder-clj
17:41	patchwork	works fine normally, except when I run lein tasks with it?
17:41	patchwork	I get this: "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: :dynamic (maxmind.clj:34)"
17:42	patchwork	It is defining the variable fine it seems (since it works normally)
17:42	patchwork	(def ^:dynamic service
17:42	technomancy	patchwork: looks like it's meant for clojure 1.3
17:42	patchwork	but this fails when required inside a lein task?
17:42	patchwork	Yeah, I am using 1.3
17:42	patchwork	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.3.0"]
17:42	technomancy	lein uses 1.2
17:43	technomancy	for its own process
17:43	patchwork	Oh
17:43	patchwork	: (
17:43	patchwork	So how do I use this from inside lein then?
17:43	patchwork	are you saying there is no way?
17:43	technomancy	you would have to port the library to 1.2
17:43	patchwork	Any path to using lein with 1.3?
17:44	patchwork	the rest of my app uses 1.3 successfully, it is great
17:44	technomancy	it's a pretty long-term goal; there are a lot of other changes going into leiningen 2.0
17:44	patchwork	crazy
17:44	technomancy	and we can't upgrade to clojure 1.3 in leiningen 1.x since it would break compatibility with nearly every plugin
17:45	patchwork	Hmm, I had a little pain converting but it was not such a big deal overall
17:45	patchwork	I'm using all kinds of libraries too
17:45	patchwork	this is… unfortunate
17:46	technomancy	yeah, but breaking plugins in a 1.x release would be really bad form
17:46	patchwork	what plugins would be broken?
17:46	technomancy	at the very least, anything that uses contrib and binding
17:46	technomancy	which probably covers a good 50%
17:47	technomancy	it would probably be easy to add 1.2 support to this geocoder though
17:47	patchwork	I thought the idea was that we would be purging libraries that aren't actively maintaining
17:47	patchwork	technomancy: it is a small project, what would backporting entail?
17:49	patchwork	The thing is, then I would have a 1.3 version I'm using in my app, and a 1.2 version I use in lein?
17:49	technomancy	I think purging unmaintained libs was just for old monolithic contrib
17:49	technomancy	patchwork: I don't think there are very many situations that would call for a split like that.
17:49	technomancy	usually it's just a matter of using backwards-compatible syntax
17:49	technomancy	^{:dynamic true} instead of ^:dynamic
17:49	technomancy	etc
17:50	technomancy	and of course ensuring monolithic contrib isn't used
17:51	patchwork	I have the repo linked in my checkouts dir (to make some edits), but it doesn't seem to be using that one for lein tasks
17:51	patchwork	is that right?
17:51	technomancy	yeah, leiningen's own classpath cannot use checkouts
17:51	patchwork	I tried to correct the issue but it keeps repeating the same error on the same line number (even though the line numbers have changed)
17:51	technomancy	since it has to be calculated from the bin/lein shell script
17:51	patchwork	Aha
17:52	technomancy	annoying but unavoidable
18:18	amalloy	man, every time i try to use (symbol ns name), i'm astonished to find that neither of the args can be symbols
18:27	llasram	Huh. That is pretty weird.
18:33	srid	,(sort #(compare (:foo %) (:foo %2)) [{:foo 3} {:foo 2}]) ;; is there a better way to write this?
18:33	clojurebot	({:foo 2} {:foo 3})
18:33	brehaut	,(sort-by :foo [{:foo 3} {:foo 2}])
18:33	clojurebot	({:foo 2} {:foo 3})
18:33	srid	hah, nice
18:33	jampart	having trouble with ns syntax (:use & :exclude, in particular) but can't seem to find a language spec for clojure. Anyone know where it lives?
18:35	brehaut	jampart: (doc use)
18:37	technomancy	clojurebot: ns?
18:37	clojurebot	ns is unfortunately more complicated than it needs to be, but http://blog.8thlight.com/articles/2010/12/6/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns may be helpful.
18:38	technomancy	jampart: that URL has a pretty good tutorial behind it. the docs are pretty poor in that regard.
18:39	jampart	technomancy: thanks, I'll peruse it later.
18:47	patchwork	whenever I try to run cake (osx 10.6.7, java 1.6, ruby 1.9.2), I get this error:
18:47	patchwork	[cake] connection to jvm is taking a long time...
18:48	patchwork	[cake] you can use ^C to abort and use 'cake kill' or 'cake kill -9' to force the jvm to restart
18:48	patchwork	But no jvm is running?
18:48	patchwork	is there further setup I need to do?
18:48	amalloy	ninjudd: ^
18:52	ninjudd	patchwork: i'm in the middle of something right now, but i can help you in a bit. or you may want to ask in #flatland and see if anyone else can help you right now
18:53	patchwork	ninjudd: okay, thanks
19:09	technomancy	it's cute how jira thinks I need to be reminded via email that I posted a comment.
19:09	technomancy	wait, did I say cute. that's not what I meant.
19:10	hiredman	:)
19:16	technomancy	seancorfield: I snuck in a little bonus that lets you specify on the CLI which DBs you want to test against: TEST_DBS=mysql,postgres mvn test
19:16	seancorfield	nice!
19:17	technomancy	plus readme instructions because I ALWAYS screw up "sudo -u postgres createdb" etc.
19:18	technomancy	I suspect half the reason nosql is so popular is just that the out-of-the-box dev experience for mysql and postgres is pretty crappy.
19:18	seancorfield	mysql's experience is good IMO but i agree on postgresql
19:19	amalloy	yeah, with no db experience at all i didn't find mysql that intimidating, but pgsql is so far inscrutable
19:20	brehaut	ive never successfully set up postgres without becoming filled with rage first
19:20	brehaut	but mysql is simple
19:21	S11001001	sqlite is simpler, use that
19:21	brehaut	S11001001: it still has SQL though
19:22	technomancy	yeah, when I was doing ruby I always chose sqlite for that reason
19:22	technomancy	no setup nonsense; once it's installed you're good to go
19:24	patchwork	I love postgres
19:24	patchwork	after mysql it is a dream
19:25	brehaut	patchwork: you can love postgres and hate its setup process
19:25	patchwork	built in recursive queries? table inheritance? awesome
19:25	technomancy	brehaut: exactly =)
19:25	patchwork	brehaut: True
19:25	patchwork	the cost of flexibility I suppose
19:26	patchwork	though most flexibility I never use
19:26	brehaut	careful there, anything that you interact with via SQL is inherently not flexible :P
19:26	patchwork	ha!
19:26	brehaut	i think you mean less inflexible
19:29	patchwork	what does everyone have against sql? I used to dog on it too, until I learned how to use it ; )
19:30	S11001001	live on the edge, set up a caching system and use it as your database
19:30	brehaut	patchwork: not a fan of compositon?
19:30	S11001001	if it gets expired you probably didn't need it anyway
19:30	S11001001	honestly, if your rows started disappearing occasionally, would you even notice?
19:30	patchwork	brehaut: how does sql limit composition? sincerely curious
19:31	patchwork	subqueries are pretty compositional
19:31	brehaut	patchwork: the constituent pieces of the query cant be named and reused
19:31	patchwork	brehaut: Aha, yes of course
19:31	patchwork	that is why I use clojure : )
19:31	patchwork	I see what you mean now
19:32	patchwork	but, you can write sql functions
19:32	patchwork	not that I do that
19:40	duck1123	Does anyone know what causes this error when I do a deps after cleaning? https://gist.github.com/1294201
19:41	S11001001	duck1123: did you do the clean and deps in the same lein command?
19:42	duck1123	I get it both ways
19:42	duck1123	A second deps will fix it, it's just annoying
19:43	duck1123	no lein clean, deps, test, cuke, install for me.
19:43	duck1123	more realistically, no lein test!
19:47	hiredman	duck1123: are you running from a lein checkout?
19:47	duck1123	Leiningen 1.6.1.1 on Java 1.6.0_26 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
19:48	hiredman	right, but are you running lein from a git checkout?
19:48	hiredman	(if you are you may need to fetch deps for lein)
19:48	duck1123	I had checked out lein, but I don't think I'm using it
19:49	duck1123	let me try anyway
19:49	amalloy	how can i type-hint an expression? instead of (let [^String x (identity "test")] (.length x)) i'd like to be able to do (.length ^String (identity "test")). i think i know why it doesn't work but i don't know the solution
19:51	S11001001	amalloy: going through walk or syntax-quote?
19:52	dnolen	amalloy: from what I understand the problem is the expression is getting type-hinted and not the return value.
19:53	hiredman	actually I think that should work
19:53	amalloy	dnolen: right, that's my understanding also. i thought there was a way around it but i guess if there isn't i'll survive
19:53	dnolen	amalloy: there's no way to make the second case work as far as I know. You have to create a local and type-hint that.
19:53	amalloy	hiredman: doesn't, though. on 1.2.1 at least
19:53	sritchie	,(clojure-version)
19:53	clojurebot	"1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
19:54	sritchie	one quick question, guys -- I'm converting some code to 1.3.0 and noticed this
19:54	sritchie	,(class (int 10))
19:54	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
19:54	S11001001	amalloy: tried it locally in 1.2.1; works
19:54	hiredman	amalloy: works for me
19:54	duck1123	is there any way to type hint the contents of a ref, or do I need to hint when I use it?
19:54	amalloy	really? hm, wonder what i'm doing wrong. thanks, i'll poke it some more
19:54	S11001001	sritchie: int and lon don
19:54	S11001001	don't do that anymore; they can only really hint
19:55	sritchie	got it; so I have to use (Integer. 10)?
19:55	S11001001	sritchie: even then, not sure how long it would survive; best to use the primitive coercion at the point of java call
19:55	dnolen	as far as I know expressions can never be type-hinted. Only vars and locals.
19:56	S11001001	I've hinted plenty of exprs with success
19:56	sritchie	S11001001: I guess I'm confused about how to use primitive coercion
19:56	S11001001	did it on Wednesday in 1.3 to suppress that try with reflection thing
19:56	amalloy	dnolen: (fn [x] (.length ^String (identity x))) seems to not issue any reflection warnings
19:56	S11001001	sritchie: if you use (int blah) in an arg position for a java method call, it'll try to pick a primitive int method
19:56	amalloy	and without the hint, it does
19:57	S11001001	because the inferred type of (int blah) is int
19:57	sritchie	got it
19:57	nathanmarz	that's pretty confusing
19:57	nathanmarz	is that a bug with int or is that the expected behavior?
19:57	S11001001	duck1123: I suggest writing a function to read the ref that is itself hinted with the intended type
19:58	S11001001	nathanmarz: by design in 1.3
19:58	S11001001	in combination with the changes so that primitives can cross function boundaries, it eliminates a combinatorial explosion of AFunction methods
19:58	duck1123	S11001001: That's probably what I'll end up doing. I was trying to eliminate reflection over the weekend and I use that pattern a lot
20:00	S11001001	one of my favorite things
20:00	S11001001	,(str (proxy [Object] [] (toString [] nil)))
20:00	clojurebot	nil
20:00	S11001001	can't trust anything
20:01	dnolen	amalloy: huh weird, I could have sworn I've seen cases where it doesn't work, wondering why in your earlier case it didn't work.
20:01	amalloy	dnolen: yeah, i'm about to put together a gist of the broken/working modes
20:03	amalloy	dnolen, hiredman: https://gist.github.com/1294255 shows what i think should be two equivalent formations of a macro, one with reflection and one without
20:04	S11001001	amalloy: meta doesn't survive syntax quote expansion
20:04	S11001001	sometimes :)
20:04	hiredman	right
20:04	dnolen	amalloy: yeah you can't type-hint in macros like that.
20:04	amalloy	ah, i think i see what you mean now
20:04	hiredman	well, it's tricky, depends how syntax quote decides to mangle it
20:05	amalloy	because syntax-quote constructs new lists, so the hints on lists might not survive
20:05	amalloy	but a hint on a non-list happens to stick around
20:05	S11001001	I think it's because of the ~ in the list
20:05	S11001001	might be constant if no unquote inside the list
20:05	amalloy	that's vicious
20:06	S11001001	have done ~(vary-meta for that
20:06	hiredman	syntax quote is rather nasty
20:06	S11001001	clojure.walk also unfortunately blows it all away
20:06	dnolen	(with-meta … {:tag 'Traversal})
20:06	amalloy	right
20:07	dnolen	I never tag any other way in a macro, it's too hard to sort out.
20:07	hiredman	well, 'Traverasl will cause the classname to be resolved in the namespace where the macro is expanded
20:07	amalloy	hiredman: is anyone interested in your impl of syntax-quote? seems nicer to have it in clojure than in the reader
20:07	hiredman	amalloy: not interest has been expressed, but I haven't been pushing it
20:07	dnolen	hiredman: yes, I meant to write out the full namespace, but don't know what it is in this case.
20:08	amalloy	dnolen: i think his point is `Traversal would work
20:08	hiredman	or just Traversal
20:08	S11001001	or hint the traversal function
20:09	amalloy	hiredman: interesting. that would result in a tag that's a Class rather than a Symbol; are the two interchangeable in this context?
20:09	dnolen	hiredman: It seems like I've run into weird cases with using just Traversal.
20:09	hiredman	interesting
20:09	hiredman	I certainly thought they were interchangable
20:17	cemerick	Yes, it needs to be a symbol; classes don't work (or, never have for me, at any rate).
20:17	hiredman	Oh, yes
20:17	S11001001	or string with fully qualified name
20:17	cemerick	right
20:17	dnolen	cemerick: classes do work … sometimes
20:17	dnolen	S11001001: yup
20:18	cemerick	dnolen: that's strange
20:18	cemerick	"sometimes" — any idea of the conditions?
20:18	amalloy	i still seem to be having trouble. as far as i can tell i've succeeded in getting the meta onto the list the macro generates, but i still get this reflection warning: https://gist.github.com/1294255
20:18	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L6874
20:19	amalloy	at this point it's easier to just go back to hinting a symbol instead, but my understanding of metadata in macros could really use some improvement
20:20	S11001001	amalloy: can the traversal function not be hinted?
20:21	amalloy	S11001001: this is code i'm maintaining, not writing from scratch, and tbh i can't even tell where traversal is defined
20:21	S11001001	hee
20:22	amalloy	there are no bare :use clauses, and it's not anywhere in this file. i'm baffled as to where it could be defined, really
20:22	dnolen	hiredman: gotcha, mistaken about using the class then. ah macros ...
20:23	S11001001	(meta #'traversal) ?
20:23	amalloy	S11001001: ah. there's a macro in this file defining it
20:23	hiredman	dnolen: I dunno, no guarantee that is the only path
20:24	hiredman	:(
20:25	amalloy	thanks for the nudge S11001001. it wouldn't be practical to hint it, as it's autogenerated from a record definition
20:25	S11001001	you could always (def ^Traversal fancy-shmancy-traversal traversal) :)
20:25	amalloy	heh
20:27	amalloy	i could probably change the generate-accessors-from-record macro to accept a map of return-value hints though
20:28	nathanmarz	so, still confused about this int/long stuff
20:28	nathanmarz	,(class (Integer/parseInt "1"))
20:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
20:28	S11001001	nathanmarz: class is a clojure function, so it has a method that takes primitive long instead of Object
20:28	hiredman	no
20:29	amalloy	no, way wrong. it takes an Object, and ints are boxed into Longs
20:29	hiredman	class is a clojure function, and takes arguments as Objects, so ints have to be boxed, clojure 1.3 boxes ints as Long
20:29	nathanmarz	,(.getClass (Integer/parseInt "1"))
20:29	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
20:29	nathanmarz	ok
20:29	hiredman	.getClass is a method on an object
20:29	nathanmarz	so clojure changes all ints to longs, even from java call?
20:30	hiredman	(Integer/parseInt "1") returns a primitive long
20:30	hiredman	in order to call a method on it, it must be boxed
20:30	amalloy	hiredman: primitive int, which is boxed into a Long, you mean?
20:30	hiredman	right
20:30	nathanmarz	this is new behavior in 1.3
20:30	S11001001	,(class (Integer/valueOf "42"))
20:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
20:30	amalloy	nathanmarz: yeah
20:30	nathanmarz	hm
20:31	nathanmarz	what's difference between valueOf and parseInt?
20:31	danlarkin	,(version)
20:31	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: version in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
20:31	danlarkin	,(clojure-version)
20:31	clojurebot	"1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
20:31	S11001001	valueOf returns Integer, parseInt returns int
20:31	nathanmarz	i see
20:31	S11001001	(similar for all of those classes)
20:31	Raynes	God willing, lazybot will be on 1.3 soon.
20:31	nathanmarz	i have to say i really disagree with that behavior
20:32	danlarkin	nathanmarz: get in line
20:37	chouser	there's a giant ponderous thread on the google group that led to this behavior
20:38	amalloy	more than one, right?
20:38	danlarkin	chouser: why do you always have to be so reasonable
20:39	dnolen	nathanmarz: if you want to get a primitive int / Integer you always can. But from 1.3.0 stand point int / Integer is for interop now.
20:41	dnolen	chouser: heh, the behavior was decided upon, the thread is simply the ponder bike-shedding.
20:41	dnolen	ponderous
20:42	chouser	hm, I suppose you're right.
20:42	chouser	danlarkin: I can be grouchy and unreasonable. Shall we talk about classpaths?
20:42	danlarkin	I'm in favor!
20:42	hiredman	(of all the classes having a path)
21:01	jstrate	Hi, I need to add the \q
21:47	kd4joa	does anyone know if the midje test framework works with clojure 1.3? specifically I'm having trouble with the lein-midje plugin
21:48	jodaro	haven't tried it yet
21:51	duck1123	kd4joa: get the new version it works now
21:54	kd4joa	thanks. where do I get it from though? I'm just specifying lein-midje "1.0.0" in my dev-dependencies
22:08	BruceBGordon	newbiie emacs-starter-kit, what version should I install? the stable version from http://emacs.naquadah.org/, and then apt-get install emacs?
22:13	duck1123	I'm not sure what the latest lein-midje is, but you want 1.3-alpha4 for midje
22:14	kd4joa	yeah I think I got it. thanks. it looks like it's 1.0.4
22:14	kd4joa	it's working now. thanks!
22:14	kd4joa	you don't happen to use midje-mode in emacs too, do you?
22:14	kd4joa	I'm having a problem with that too
22:15	duck1123	I didn't really like it
22:15	kd4joa	ok thanks. it's nice to be able to run the tests from the emacs buffer with the tests
22:15	duck1123	I had it working once, but I just wrap everything in a deftest, so it wasn't working very well
22:16	duck1123	clojure-test-mode still works if you do it that way
22:17	kd4joa	thanks. I'm pretty new to clojure and haven't tried that yet. I like the way midje specifies the tests
22:17	amalloy	kd4joa: i was pretty miffed at midje-mode because it uses keybindings that are supposed to be reserved for personal use
22:18	kd4joa	I get so baffled by the inconsistencies between use, require, import, :use, :require, :import that I spend so much time just trying to get my environment setup
22:20	duck1123	there's still too much of an element of style with ns forms. It fits in with Clojure's philosophy, but it also makes my OCD tick when dealing with libs that use their ns form differently
22:20	duck1123	I'm talking about using () vs []
22:21	amalloy	duck1123: those aren't always interchangeable, which is the worst part
22:21	kd4joa	oh yeah. some take a vector, some can take a vector of vectors, some want a list, etc, etc. frankly it's baffling.
22:22	amalloy	i've finally settled down into a style that is easy to understand, and everyone else's style is terrible :P
22:22	duck1123	I try to stick to (:usc (clojure.core [incubator :only (-?>)]))
22:22	duck1123	er, :use
22:23	duck1123	parens for namespace prefixes, braces for the inner part, and parens for the inner lists
22:24	amalloy	duck1123: i think vectors for the inner lists are definitely better
22:24	duck1123	I've yet to see a definitive style guide to say I'm doing it wrong, and it's hard to tell by looking at other code
22:24	amalloy	(foo bar baz) implies foo is special, and emacs indents accordingly if you need to span lines. [foo bar baz] puts them all on equal footing
22:24	duck1123	so (clojure.core [incubator :only [-?>]])
22:25	duck1123	I think I did that at one time, but I saw more people doing ()
22:26	amalloy	yeah. then there are the folks who don't like prefix lists. i think they're not wrong, but it's sad to have to type stuff more than once
22:27	duck1123	I go back and forth on them, but lately I've been pro. I also have many namespaces that'll all share a common prefix
22:29	duck1123	I'm trying to get better about my naked uses, but sometimes it's hard not to
22:29	amalloy	~guards
22:29	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
22:29	amalloy	many sins may be forgiven...but naked :use sends you straight to hell
22:30	duck1123	I've been making it a point to go back through and fix all my ns forms
22:31	amalloy	duck1123: tried slamhound?
22:31	duck1123	This is my nastiest ns form by far https://github.com/duck1123/jiksnu/blob/master/src/jiksnu/routes.clj
22:31	duck1123	I've played with it, but need to get it working right
22:31	amalloy	yeah, it won't work on this ns form. wouldn't work on mine either, so i don't use it
22:34	amalloy	anyway rather than look at that code for one more second i'm heading outta here
22:34	duck1123	aww... it's not that bad is it?
22:34	duck1123	later
22:34	konr	if I have two mutually-calling functions such as "(defn a [n] (if (= n 1) 1 (b (dec n)))) (defn b [n] (+ (a n) n))", what can I do to make evaluate? Define their names before their definitions?
22:34	amalloy	i'll be back with more mock-criticism later
22:34	S11001001	konr: yes, (declare b) before the defn a
22:35	jcromartie	duck1123: holy living crap on a stick attacking Tokyo
22:35	jcromartie	t
22:35	jcromartie	ha
22:35	konr	S11001001: thanks!
22:35	jcromartie	that's one heck of a ns
22:37	duck1123	I plan on moving some of it out and use my definitialize macro to load the views/filters/triggers later
22:38	duck1123	It's been hell juggling the namespaces to avoid circular deps