#clojure – 2011-10-14

2011-10-14

00:02	ibdknox_	dnolen: yeah, there's some stuff in pinot to help with it. I went direct to the JS API... the gclosure stuff was ridiculous
00:03	ibdknox_	dnolen: I need to switch it off of using seqs, but I haven't done that yet
00:36	jcromartie	you know, it's really hard to have an off-by-one error, or an infinite loop, when you're dealing with seqs
00:36	jcromartie	unless you make an infinite seq of course
00:37	jcromartie	so I guess that's not that hard
00:37	jcromartie	... derp
00:41	amalloy	jcromartie: the fact that you can say "having an infinite sequence is not that hard" is a testament to how much easier things are in clojure
00:43	jcromartie	heh
00:44	jcromartie	but yeah, I'm just meditating on the nature of bugs
00:44	jcromartie	most of the bugs that come along in production are a failure to coordinate mutable state
00:44	jcromartie	(in our system)
00:45	jcromartie	things like off-by-one, or = instead of ==... those are the easy ones
00:45	jcromartie	those get caught early and often
00:46	jcromartie	but the subtle bugs that slip under the radar are almost always mutable state
00:46	amalloy	OBO is a special case of having to manage mutable state, of course
00:47	jcromartie	well OBO doesn't have to be mutable
00:47	jcromartie	&(range 1 5)
00:47	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4)
00:47	amalloy	i guess that's true
00:47	amalloy	but at least a majority of the time, OBO comes from a for loop somewhere
00:47	jcromartie	yes ;)
00:48	jcromartie	but anyway, I'm totally sold on the following ideas:
00:48	jcromartie	1) pure functions are better than assignment/mutation whenever it's even remotely practical
00:49	jcromartie	2) the best kind of data system is one that treats inputs as immutable, and where the current state is just derived from that historic data
00:49	jcromartie	so I'm putting that together now
00:50	jcromartie	(nathanmarz's recent post is prescient)
00:50	Apage43	anything you're -not- sold on? That might be more interesting to discuss.
00:50	jcromartie	Apage43: NoSQL databases :)
00:50	Apage43	oh fun
00:50	Apage43	I work for a NoSQL company
00:50	jcromartie	Apage43: "cloud" platforms
00:51	jcromartie	Apage43: oh, no offense of course :)
00:51	jcromartie	which one?
00:51	Apage43	eh
00:51	jcromartie	I actually like CouchDB and Mongo
00:51	Apage43	i largely am annoyed by the way its marketed
00:51	Apage43	jcromartie: Couchbase
00:51	jcromartie	but I think they are squarely in the "mutable by default" camp
00:51	jcromartie	so are most RDBMS
00:51	Apage43	formerly at Couchone/Couch.io
00:52	jcromartie	I think I like Couch a lot, actually
00:52	Apage43	jcromartie: well, i mean, it -is- a datastore
00:52	jcromartie	sure
00:52	jcromartie	but someone let me know when a (popular) datastore comes along that never loses anything, by default
00:52	Apage43	Couch is nifty in the way it makes available metadata about the stuff that happened to the database over time to get it to the state its currently in
00:53	jcromartie	sure but it disappears
00:53	jcromartie	doesn't it?
00:53	Apage43	it does if you run compaction
00:53	jcromartie	right
00:53	Apage43	you have the option, if you want, -never- to run compaction
00:53	jcromartie	huh, interesting
00:53	jcromartie	but that doesn't let you use the history itself to re-define the state
00:53	Apage43	you can access previous revisions of documents as long as you haven't cleaned them up
00:53	jcromartie	yeah
00:54	jcromartie	I thought that was pretty cool, but then I realized you can't count on it
00:54	Apage43	nah
00:54	Apage43	we very explicitly tell people not to count on it
00:54	Apage43	if you want revisions you should save the old version explicitly
00:55	Apage43	but you could definitely build something really close to couch that did what you wanted
00:55	Apage43	since it is a log-structured btree
00:55	jcromartie	yeah
00:55	jcromartie	embed the old version in the new version
00:55	Apage43	very similar to clojure's datastructures
00:56	Apage43	attachments at least work that way
00:57	Apage43	so do the indexes
00:57	Apage43	but none of that is really a user-facing feature
00:58	jcromartie	I'll see how well my toy journaled datastore works, and then put it out there. The big idea is that the history never goes away, and that when you change the commands that were applied to derive the current state, you can just replay the journal.
00:58	jcromartie	so, for example
00:58	jcromartie	you have a command, like (set-user-password my-db "jcromartie" "foobar")
00:58	jcromartie	that gets journaled
00:58	Apage43	I find log-structured/journaled stuff pretty fun to think about in general
00:59	amalloy	brehaut: https://gist.github.com/1286289 is 4clojure's code-golf fever gone mad
00:59	jcromartie	and set-user-password does something like (defn set-user-password [uid pw] (update-in state [:users key] assoc :password pw))
00:59	jcromartie	BTW this is not how I'd do it :)
00:59	jcromartie	so it just sticks the password in there
01:00	jcromartie	now what if you want to go to SHA-1? (assume you encrypt the journals, or something like that)
01:00	jcromartie	(bad example, I know)
01:00	jcromartie	so you change set-user-password, and reload your db
01:00	jcromartie	now (set-user-password my-db "member:jcromartie" "foobar") gets re-applied
01:00	jcromartie	and you store the SHA-1
01:01	jcromartie	OK now you want a password policy that says you can't use the same password twice
01:01	jcromartie	so you update set-user-password to store the password hash in a set in the user value
01:01	jcromartie	re-run the journal again
01:01	jcromartie	and you have your user objects with their full history of password hashes
01:02	jcromartie	no problem
01:02	Apage43	course anyone with read-access to the journal has the plaintext
01:02	jcromartie	now, again, I'm not advocating passing plaintext passwords and other sensitive info to get journaled... but that's a problem that any datastore has
01:02	Apage43	yeah =P
01:03	jcromartie	but you can also go into the jorunal
01:03	jcromartie	journal
01:03	jcromartie	if you truly have bad data
01:03	jcromartie	because the journal is just code, too, it can be parsed and processed
01:03	jcromartie	with the same tools as any other data structure
01:03	jcromartie	handy-dandy :)
01:03	jcromartie	anyway, the trick will be seeing how this scales
01:04	jcromartie	I did 100K simple transactions... they read back in in about 4 seconds
01:04	jcromartie	but 100K is peanuts for a big application
01:04	Apage43	and concurrent access is a seperate problem as well
01:05	jcromartie	that can be solved at a higher level
01:05	jcromartie	and this just uses refs for the db state
01:05	jcromartie	so they get transactions for free :)
01:05	jcromartie	the journal write only happens AFTER the transaction, and only if it succeeds (exceptions would cause it to fail)
01:06	jcromartie	and it's in order (an agent does the journal-writing)
01:07	jcromartie	but yeah, it's just for fun right now
01:07	jcromartie	anyway
01:07	jcromartie	goodnight
01:07	Apage43	night
02:08	hiredman	,(+ 1 2)
02:08	clojurebot	3
02:40	kiuma	hello
02:40	archaic	hi
02:42	kiuma	I was pondering do change a parser that I've implemented in java into a lisp one, I'm in doubt between ABCL and Clojure, I know Common Lisp. Which advantage could I have adopting Clojure in place of ABCL ?
02:44	ibdknox_	kiuma: http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-for-lisp-programmers-part-1-1319721
03:02	chrido	hi idbknox, can i ask you something regarding postgres and timestamp with timezone?
03:04	amalloy	ibdknox_: we need an ~anyone for that
03:06	amalloy	chrido: it's more polite to just ask him. your real question is unlikely to make him fly into a rage, so you don't need to ask permission
03:12	wink	then again, the problem just solved itself :P
03:16	rmrfchik	hit he bug in 1.3; where to report?
03:16	rmrfchik	i have test case
03:26	rmrfchik	ah, that's is defn inside defn.
03:35	thorwil	hmm, the link to the transcript on http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-for-lisp-programmers-part-1-1319721 actually just redirects to the group
03:35	thorwil	and i see no way to access the purported files section of the group
04:02	gu_	hi, is there a built in function that already does this? (fn [ks v] (zipmap k (repeat v))) (ks being a sequence and v being any value)?
04:06	amalloy	gu_: i don't think so
04:10	Blkt	good morning everyone
04:14	brehaut	amalloy: re:golf, thats mental
04:15	amalloy	brehaut: i did that just as an exercise, but some people's solutions look like that all the time
04:16	brehaut	i havent yet tried to golf anything
04:17	dbushenko	hi all!
04:17	amalloy	aw, you're not counting the immense savings you get by typing partial less?
04:18	dbushenko	where is the clojure pattern matching library?
04:19	dbushenko	ok, found it: core.match
04:20	brehaut	amalloy: haha
04:21	brehaut	amalloy: sadly thats been countered by some brain dead thinking blowouts
04:21	amalloy	brehaut: that's how i feel after solving chouser's recently-submitted problem
04:21	brehaut	thats the challenge that got me to start 4clojure
04:21	amalloy	nice
04:21	brehaut	(although i decided i needed to start at the start)
04:34	brehaut	huh tree-seq looks really handy
04:35	brehaut	amalloy: heres the other one i flubbed http://www.4clojure.com/problem/solutions/66
04:37	amalloy	brehaut: eh. i looked up the gcd algo on wikipedia
04:38	brehaut	i should have
04:38	brehaut	i remember from my 100 level discrete math that euclid had a smart solution a while back
04:41	gu_	O_o suddenly clojure started interpreting docstrings as instructions failing.. any idea on what's going on?
04:46	gu_	it seems a problem with the use of single quotes in the string
05:14	raek	gu_: sounds like a missing double quote somewhere
05:28	brehaut	i just solved the game of life 4clojure problem. there are some amazing concise solutions there
08:39	jcromartie	"If I had more time I would have written less code"
08:48	gu_	hi, can you answer this question? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7767775/clojure-when-to-use-mutable-state
09:17	gu_	hi, can you answer this question? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7767775/clojure-when-to-use-mutable-state
09:18	jcromartie	gu_: taking a look :)
09:20	gu_	thanks. i'm trying to learn clojure and this seems to me an important non-technical topic. by non-technical i mean that right now to me it's just a matter of "doing it the most clojure-esque way possible" because in the specific program i can go either way (mutable or not)
09:28	tordmor	gu_, basically function arguments are about what you actually want to do with your function. Mutable state would be a general context. Like the figures and the background of a painting.
09:30	jcromartie	gu_: I posted my thoughts.
09:31	jcromartie	I hope they are coherent.
09:33	gu_	thank you! i've read it :
09:35	ljos	Does clojure have some kind of sleep without calling java?
09:37	jcromartie	ljos: is this sufficient? (defn sleep [n] (Thread/sleep n))
09:38	llasram	Huh. So `case' can't even be used with Java 'static final' constants, only literals values? That's kind of weird :-/
09:38	jcromartie	case is lower level than cond
09:39	jcromartie	it's faster but more restricted
09:39	llasram	jcromartie: Sure, but I still would have expected it to work with the JVM equivalent of compile-time constants
09:39	jcromartie	maybe that can be fixed?
09:39	ljos	jcromartie: it works, I just wanted to know if it was in the language.
09:42	jcromartie	llasram: you could probably make a case that works that way, actually
09:42	llasram	jcromartie: It seems like it should be possible -- the info is all available at compile-time, right? And it also seems like a really common use-case: in other languages that's probably the most common way I use that sort of construct
09:42	jcromartie	well "compile time" is loosely defined in Clojure :)
09:43	llasram	jcromartie: Yeah, it wouldn't be that hard, actually -- just a macro which evaluates all the exprs then passes that the built-in `case'
09:43	jcromartie	yup
09:43	jcromartie	isn't that handy :)
09:48	lnostdal_	i find myself needing off-line access to the clojure reference documentation at times; is this available somewhere?
09:49	lnostdal_	perhaps there's a dead-tree edition available too?
09:50	raek	lnostdal_: you can clone the gh-pages branch of clojure/clojure on github
09:50	jcromartie	llasram: like this https://gist.github.com/1287160
09:50	raek	should be static html files
09:50	jcromartie	:) just for fun
09:50	jcromartie	I am thinking about it now, and there are probably drawbacks
09:50	jcromartie	but not many
09:51	raek	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/tree/gh-pages
09:52	lnostdal_	cool, didn't know about that, raek
09:52	jcromartie	actually this macro is just a bad idea
09:53	jcromartie	because you can't tell between any old symbol and a local binding
09:54	jcromartie	anyway, yeah, bad idea
09:54	jcromartie	don't use it
10:00	`fogus	dnolen: Thanks for kicking butt on ClojureScript. Greatly appreciated
10:04	Twey	I'm trying to play around with SWT in Clojure, but it can't seem to find my SWT classes — e.g. user=> (import org.eclipse.swt.widgets.Display) yields a ClassNotFoundException. How can I make it find SWT? I've tried running it with CLASSPATH=/usr/share/java/swt.jar (which is where the SWT jar is).
10:07	raek	Twey: try (import 'org.eclipse.swt.widgets.Display)
10:08	TimMc	Twey: (import org.eclipse.swt.widgets.Display)
10:08	TimMc	urgh
10:09	raek	the claspath actually used depends completely on how you launched clojure
10:09	Twey	raek: No difference
10:09	TimMc	Twey: (import Foo) tries to evaluate the form Foo before calling import -- that's why you need to quote it.
10:09	Twey	[@ twey algiz ] % CLASSPATH=/usr/share/java/swt.jar:$CLASSPATH clj
10:09	Twey	TimMc: Ah, I see
10:09	raek	Twey: there is no standard clojure launcher script
10:09	dnolen	`fogus: np!
10:09	TimMc	Twey: I never mess around with classpath directly -- have you tried using lein?
10:10	TimMc	Twey: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
10:10	Twey	I'm aware of its existence, but I've been skirting it ☺
10:10	TimMc	It's really, really nice.
10:10	raek	Twey: if you really need to control the classpath manually (i.e. you choose not to use a build tool like leiningen) start clojure with "java -cp clojure.jar:your_other_jar.jar clojure.main"
10:11	raek	the launcher shell scripts that circulates on the net are pretty much only usable for "hello world"
10:12	`fogus	Breaking changes (likely) coming to ClojureScript. http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Unified+ClojureScript+and+Clojure+field+access+syntax
10:13	Twey	raek: Success! Thank you ☺
10:13	Twey	I'll try to get Leiningen working
10:14	raek	Twey: to use lein and swt you need to find a Maven artiact for SWT
10:14	raek	then you declare it as a dependency rather than give it the jar
10:15	Twey	>.<
10:15	raek	Twey: http://jarvana.com/jarvana/ <-- search engine for java maven artifacts
10:15	Twey	There seem to be so many cognitive dependencies for writing a ‘Hello World’ app in anything Java-based
10:16	llasram	jcromartie: Oh, actually, I'd wandered off to write my own version :-) https://gist.github.com/1287230
10:16	Twey	So… Maven is a build manager? But I thought leiningen was a build manager?
10:16	raek	well, at least maven and the clojure community share a dependency system...
10:17	raek	Twey: yes, but leiningen uses the dependency parts of maven
10:17	Twey	Ah right
10:17	llasram	jcromartie: I don't think it's a bad idea at all, despite using `eval'. If the expression can't be eval'ed at compile time, it'll just throw an exception
10:17	melipone	help! how do i remove-duplicates but keep the order of the list?
10:17	raek	melipone: distinct
10:17	melipone	distinct does not work for me because I need to extract the name of an object
10:18	raek	,(distinct [1 1 9 7 1 6 3 9])
10:18	clojurebot	(1 9 7 6 3)
10:18	jcromartie	llasram: yours tries to eval strings and numbers
10:18	llasram	jcromartie: Which is fine
10:18	llasram	,(eval 1)
10:18	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
10:18	llasram	Haha
10:18	melipone	distinct does not work because I have a list of structs
10:18	llasram	Ok, anyway, it just returns the same reader-literal
10:18	jcromartie	maybe that's in 1.3?
10:19	jcromartie	huh weird
10:19	jcromartie	oh I had some other error
10:19	raek	melipone: so "equality" in your case means something else than that the structs are equal?
10:19	jcromartie	I assumed...
10:19	melipone	yes, i need to extract the name from the struct and do the equal on that
10:20	jcromartie	good catch
10:20	llasram	There probably are problems with the approach, but it's working for my case ATM. Thanks for the inspiration in the right direction :-)
10:22	Squeese	"Clojure is high signal, low noise." Im lost as to what this means
10:22	dnolen	`fogus: I don't really consider the difference much of a problem. probably worth bringing up on the ML to solicit opinions from those people already using ClojureScript.
10:23	dnolen	Squeese: less ceremony.
10:23	raek	melipone: I think you need to make your own function. it should be fairly simple to make a variant of 'distinct' that compares "(f x)" instead of "x"
10:24	raek	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/distinct#source
10:25	Squeese	less ceremony? Omg, abstractions is totally lost on me.. ;(
10:26	Squeese	Or would the correct word be metaphor? lolzlzlz brains not compute, leaving..
10:26	gamzovicov	hello
10:26	ljos	I am unable to call methods from a java class I have made myself and the stacktrace is less then helpfull. Is there anyone who know what I might be doing wrong?
10:26	ljos	I can create the object from the class though.
10:27	gfredericks	ljos: are they static or instance methods? what syntax are you using to call them?
10:27	ljos	gfredricks: instance methods. I am running (.getScore msp)
10:28	raek	melipone: something like this https://gist.github.com/1287265 (not tested)
10:28	gfredericks	ljos: and what's the error message?
10:28	jcromartie	Squeese: ok let's slow down
10:28	raek	(distinct-key :name structs)
10:28	ljos	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException at mspacman.NUIMsPacman.getScore(Unknown Source)
10:28	jcromartie	Squeese: compare Java's "hello world" with Clojure's
10:29	Twey	Hmph
10:29	gfredericks	ljos: sounds like the method is getting called but something's going wrong inside the method?
10:29	Squeese	"Clojure is high signal, low noise" is really just saying "Less code" ?
10:29	ljos	No.. I can run it from java.
10:29	jcromartie	Squeese: now compare a transactional concurrent datastore in Java with a Clojure version :)
10:29	jcromartie	Squeese: not just less code, but the right code...
10:29	gfredericks	ljos: and the method doesn't take any arguments?
10:29	ljos	none
10:30	Twey	Went through all that, installed Leiningen, installed Maven, found a .jar for SWT-linux-x86_64 on jarvana, installed it using Maven, ran ‘lein deps’ ran ‘lein repl’, executed (import 'org.eclipse.swt.Display) and got… ClassNotFoundException. :þ
10:30	jcromartie	Squeese: for example, I can write an API like this in Clojure: https://gist.github.com/be1d88c9c0363e542f4f
10:30	gfredericks	ljos: and (type msp) returns your class?
10:30	Squeese	jcromartie: well, if I can write less code to do the same thing as before, thats awesome - but if its "right" will be an whole other discussion.. :P
10:30	jcromartie	Squeese: not in the sense of "logically correct"
10:30	ljos	gfredricks: yes
10:31	ljos	gfredricks: I though it might be because I was using an interface, but I imported the interface as well now and it still doesn't work.
10:31	Twey	(.. System (getProperties) (getProperty "java.class.path")) includes /home/twey/Development/Clojure/swt/lib/swt-3.7.1.jar
10:31	jcromartie	Squeese: so that example API... that would be a whole mess of class definitions in Java or C#. Or it would be a bunch of "do \|x\| ... end" or "{ \|x\| }" blocks in Ruby
10:31	Twey	Which is something Leiningen put there >.>
10:31	gfredericks	ljos: maybe you could put the full stack trace in a paste?
10:32	gfredericks	ljos: otherwise, calling instance methods is pretty basic, so despite your insistance I have to think the simplest explanation is a bug in the java code
10:32	Squeese	jcromartie: ok, thx :)
10:32	jcromartie	Squeese: not that Clojure is the only language you can do this in (other Lisps, etc.), but it tends to be low noise by default
10:32	raek	Twey: did you include it under :dependencies in your project.clj file?
10:32	ljos	http://pastebin.com/fyFxjr9r
10:32	gfredericks	ljos: i.e., maybe you're setting things up differently when you do it from java?
10:32	Twey	raek: [org.eclipse.swt/swt "3.7.1"]
10:33	ljos	gfredricks: how could it be different? It's a method call!
10:33	gfredericks	jcromartie: the stack trace clearly indicates that your method is being called.
10:33	gfredericks	ljos: sorry, ^that was for you
10:33	gfredericks	ljos: is it your java code? could you stub that method with "return null" and see if it succeeds?
10:33	Twey	The Maven install was done with: mvn install:install-file -DgroupId=org.eclipse.swt -DartifactId=swt -Dversion=3.7.1 -Dpackaging=jar -Dfile=/home/twey/Downloads/x86_64-3.3.0-v3346.jar
10:33	Squeese	jcromartie: Noise, is that "extra stuff needed to make x work" as in side-effects needed to handled or just more syntax todo the same thing?
10:34	jcromartie	Squeese: yeah, pretty much
10:34	Squeese	jcromartie: ah ok, cool - then Im aboard :)
10:34	jcromartie	Squeese: anything that doesn't express the solution to your problem
10:34	jkkramer	Twey: you sure org.eclipse.swt.Display exists?
10:35	Twey	jkkramer: I have no idea
10:35	Twey	How would I find out?
10:35	jkkramer	first google result is org.eclipse.swt.widgets.Display
10:35	raek	Twey: are you sure it shouldn't be org.eclipse.swt.widgets.Display?
10:35	Twey	Ah, like that
10:35	jkkramer	i don't know, presumably you're entering it for a reason
10:35	Twey	Haha :-D
10:36	Squeese	jcromartie: so, were just waiting on someone to figure out how to remove all the (((( and )))) noise and were set. :)
10:36	Twey	Yay, new error
10:36	raek	Twey: but the dependency and the classpath looks good, so I think you're all set in that area
10:36	Twey	java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: no swt-gtk-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT or swt-gtk in swt.library.path, java.library.path or the jar file
10:36	ljos	gfredrics: hmmm.. Something is very wrong here... You where right. It is the method. It ran now. I think the problem is that another project that is on the path is not compiling or doing what it should.
10:36	Twey	Do I need to add that as a dependency? I thought the point of SWT was that I don't have to specify the backend
10:36	TimMc	Squeese: Then you have Haskell, which I find less readable.
10:37	jcromartie	Squeese: sure, but right now the ((( and ))) are what let you get rid of things like class definitions
10:37	ljos	gfredicks: though it does do it in java.
10:37	gfredericks	ljos: are you using maven?
10:37	jcromartie	so I'll take the parens and uniform syntax along with the ability to create any kind of syntax form I need
10:37	jcromartie	that's the key: forms
10:37	ljos	gfredrics: not really.
10:38	gfredericks	ljos: some build tool? or just raw command-line java/javac calls?
10:38	raek	Twey: I've heard that native dependencies (which SWT uses) can be tricky. have you looked for any tutorials on how to use SWT from clojure?
10:38	ljos	gredricks: For clojure I'm using leiningen. For java I start everything from eclipse mostly.
10:39	gfredericks	ljos: so it's something that eclipse is doing for you that leiningen isn't, does that sound plausible?
10:39	Squeese	is there a syntax disagreement within lisp as it does in "c like langs" as to where to put {, new line or not? :)
10:39	gamzovicov	i'm new in clojure and i want to lern functional programing
10:39	Twey	raek: Yes, but I just get a lot of code tutorials & not so many setup ones :-\
10:39	gamzovicov	can someone tell me a good tutorials
10:39	gfredericks	gamzovicov: 4clojure.com
10:40	raek	I've heard that the maven package system does not have a standardized way of dealing with native dependencies... :/
10:40	jcromartie	Squeese: there's a general Clojure style
10:40	`fogus	dnolen: I will definitely bring it up on the ML. Formulating a post now
10:40	TimMc	Squeese: Do what Emacs tells you. :-)
10:40	jcromartie	don't put parens on lines by themselves
10:40	jcromartie	yeah I was going to say
10:41	TimMc	amalloy_: There should be more real-estate-based puzzles on 4clojure
10:41	TimMc	or banking :-P
10:41	jcromartie	just like Ruby style :) ... Matz uses ruby-mode
10:41	ljos	gfredricks: It does. But I'm am very unsure of what. EVerything should be on the buildpath.
10:41	Squeese	TimMc: damnit, emac keeps bugging me, Im trying to stick with Textmate.. I really have to try emacs :P
10:42	raek	Twey: found this: https://github.com/santamon/GUIFTW/wiki/One-Tutorial-For-All
10:42	TimMc	It's worth the long learning curve.
10:42	st3fan	emacs is awesome
10:42	gfredericks	ljos: I don't know too much about eclipse's magic. You could try running java from the command line to see what happens? Otherwise we're out of the realm of my knowledge
10:43	TimMc	Squeese: The most important thing is to keep a written cheatsheet handy: C-g, C-x 1, C-h a, C-x C-c... along with the paredit cheatsheet. ALso get a copy of someone else's .emacs file.
10:43	TimMc	Over time you'll stop using the cheatsheet.
10:44	Squeese	TimMc: I didnt really understand what you said, but I guess I will when I learned the emac basics? Copy paste msg for later.
10:44	TimMc	Those are some examples of commands you will want to know right away.
10:44	Squeese	aha ok
10:45	Twey	raek: Ah, your Google-fu is strong. Thanks!
10:45	TimMc	Cancel, hide all but current buffer window, search help, quit.
10:45	jcromartie	Paredit is just amazing
10:46	TimMc	At the very least, paredit means only typing half the parens. :-)
10:46	jcromartie	People say Lisp code is difficult to edit. But Paredit makes editing Lisp code easier and more fluid than any other language+IDE combo I've used.
10:46	raek	clojurebot: swt?
10:46	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
10:46	jcromartie	because you can really slice and dice expressions
10:46	ljos	gfredricks: I think it is that I am casting a variable from one class to another... I don't think eclipse should do anything with that.
10:46	Squeese	TimMc: thx
10:46	raek	clojurebot: swt is https://github.com/santamon/GUIFTW/wiki/One-Tutorial-For-All
10:46	clojurebot	Ok.
10:46	TimMc	jcromartie: Yeah, if I could edit Java forms the way I can edit Lisp forms, Java would suck a bit less.
10:46	jcromartie	and in other languages, where the syntax isn't uniform, you just can't do that, even with a powerful IDE
10:47	ljos	gfredricks: but I'll see what happens when I run it form the terminal.
10:47	TimMc	M-x java-slurp-try-catch-backwards :-P
10:50	TimMc	That would break declarations, though.
10:51	Twey	raek: No, I just keep getting the same >.<
10:52	TimMc	`fogus: So (. o p) would still be different in clj and cljs, but there would at least be a way of writing equivalent code.
10:52	raek	Twey: did you run a lein deps in between?
10:53	Twey	I did
10:54	ljos	gfredricks: I have to look at it tomorrow. I have to go now. Thanks for the help though.
10:54	gfredericks	ljos: yessir
10:54	TimMc	Twey: Doess lein classpath show the SWT jar?
10:55	raek	Twey: Are you using exactly the same deps as in the tutorial? Otherwise I'm out of advice, I'm afraid.
10:56	Twey	TimMc: /home/twey/Development/Clojure/swt/lib/swt-linux-gtk-x86_64-3.3.0.jar is in there
10:56	Squeese	is there anything I need to install extra with emacs to "support clojure" like plugin or something?
10:57	Twey	raek: No, I'm using linux-gtk-x86_64, not win32-win32-x86_64
10:57	Twey	But other than that, yes, as far as I can tell
10:57	Twey	(and no guiftw, obviously)
10:57	Fletchcutus	Have a (hopefully quick) java interop question: I'm trying to take a list of corresponding methods and call them on two different objects (testing a swig wrapper)
10:58	Twey	Squeese: You'll need clojure-mode; see if you can M-x clojure-mode, & if not you might need to install it
10:58	Squeese	ok thx
10:58	Twey	Squeese: I use the modification from ergoemacs.org which includes clojure-mode amongst other things
10:59	Fletchcutus	My first attempt was something like (map (fn [[m1 m2]] (== (. o1 m1) (. o2 m2)) [ [:o1Method :o2Method] ])
11:01	Fletchcutus	but that complains about no matching field found m1 for class (class of o1)
11:01	Fletchcutus	am I barking up the wrong tree?
11:02	gfredericks	Fletchcutus: I'm not sure there's an easy way to call java methods programmatically. Might have to use java reflection?
11:02	Fletchcutus	Eeew. :/ Same conclusion I was coming to.
11:03	gfredericks	Fletchcutus: not too hard to write a helper method for that though
11:03	Fletchcutus	yeah, a macro similar to what memfn does would prossibly do it
11:04	Fletchcutus	was just diddling in the repl trying to come up with some tests for some swig'd c++ really quick.
11:04	gfredericks	Fletchcutus: actually I think you would want exactly _not_ a macro
11:05	gfredericks	since a macro would require you know the name of the method
11:05	TimMc	When possible, don't put core functionality into macros.
11:06	TimMc	Twey: You have looked in the jar to make sure org/eclipse/swt/Display.class is there?
11:07	raek	Fletchcutus: use = and not ==
11:07	TimMc	Twey: Are you using (import '...) from the REPL or (:import ...) in the ns form?
11:08	raek	Fletchcutus: since methods are not first class on the jvm, you need to wrap them in clojure functions
11:08	Twey	TimMc: REPL (import …)
11:08	TimMc	k
11:09	raek	(map (fn [[m1 m2]] (= (m1 o1) (m2 o2))) [[#(.m1 %) #(.m2 %)]])
11:09	TimMc	Twey: org.eclipse.swt.widgets.Display, maybe?
11:10	Twey	TimMc: Yep, it exists
11:10	Fletchcutus	raek: ooh, that looks promising
11:10	TimMc	under the widgets subpackage, or under swt directly?
11:10	Twey	TimMc: Under ‘widgets’
11:10	raek	Twey: what error did you get? class not found or native library thingy?
11:10	Twey	Yeah, I know, I was typo'ing that at the start — we got past that
11:11	TimMc	Ah, OK.
11:11	Twey	I've got SWT installed & working with lein now, but when I import it ((import 'org.eclipse.swt.widgets.Display) from the REPL) I get java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: no swt-gtk-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT or swt-gtk in swt.library.path, java.library.path or the jar file (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
11:11	Twey	I'm not really very sure what that even is
11:11	Twey	Is it looking for a directory?
11:12	raek	that probably means that it doesn't find a native library
11:12	Fletchcutus	rake: that works but it's a slight bit uglier than I'd hoped for. Thanks :)
11:12	stuarthalloway	naming help requested
11:12	TimMc	stuarthalloway: "Jennifer"
11:12	Twey	raek: Yeah, that's what I figured ;) I'm just not sure what to do to make it find one…
11:12	stuarthalloway	I need a name for an exception type, to be added to Clojure, the carries along structured data
11:13	gfredericks	Stone? :)
11:13	TimMc	raek: Sounds like Display is found, but it is not finding some dep of its own.
11:13	stuarthalloway	.net gets this right, having data on the base exception type: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.exception.data.aspx
11:13	TimMc	stuarthalloway: This would be ? extends Exception?
11:14	stuarthalloway	TimMc: extend RuntimeException to stay out of checked exception land
11:14	TimMc	right
11:14	raek	Twey: maybe you need to install some package in you OS? (like GTK header files or something)
11:14	raek	I'm just guessing here
11:14	gfredericks	RuntimeExcljeption?
11:14	TimMc	terrible
11:15	stuarthalloway	this exception should be usable as a building block for different exception libraries
11:15	raek	stuarthalloway: ClojureException? ;-)
11:15	Fletchcutus	raek: actually I withdraw my ugly comment. I need to do some diddling on some methods to make the returns match up so that's actually a pretty good solution
11:15	stuarthalloway	such that the higher level libraries do not need to make a new class, and (importantly!) do not need AOT
11:15	stuarthalloway	raek: certainly on the list
11:15	stuarthalloway	gfredericks: ouch
11:16	stuarthalloway	considering StructuredException
11:16	stuarthalloway	or Mulligan
11:16	stuarthalloway	:-)
11:16	gfredericks	~second
11:16	clojurebot	Motion seconded and carried. Next agenda item.
11:16	TimMc	stuarthalloway: Would this also happen to include some way of building up a message as the exception passes through layers of handlers? (Is there a discussion or proposal I can read?)
11:17	stuarthalloway	TimMc: would be foundation for that
11:17	TimMc	OK.
11:17	TimMc	Short names are nice. How about Fit, as in (throw (Fit.))
11:17	Twey	raek: Uhh… I don't think so: it works from Java
11:18	Twey	(using my system libs, rather than the SWT ones)
11:18	raek	maybe the exception should have a name that suggests that the name is about the exception and not about the cause
11:18	TimMc	Twey: If you look in the Referenced Libraries in the Eclipse project, do you see any SWT things that aren't in your lein classpath?
11:18	stuarthalloway	hmm... Exc? Err? Condition?
11:18	stuarthalloway	raek: agreed, and that is tricky because everybody exceptions the name to tell you about the problem
11:19	stuarthalloway	s/exceptions/expects
11:19	lazybot	<stuarthalloway> raek: agreed, and that is tricky because everybody expects the name to tell you about the problem
11:19	Twey	For that matter, it works if I use my system libraries in general
11:19	raek	Twey: another workaround is to put the jar you know works in lib/ and enable a setting in project.clj to prohibit lein from flushing the lib/ dir
11:20	raek	DataCarryingException
11:20	stuarthalloway	TimMc: notes are rough, but at http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Error+Handling
11:20	TimMc	stuarthalloway: Would this name show up in 1) stack traces, 2) relying Java code, 3) relying Clojure code (excepting exception libs)
11:20	TimMc	thx
11:20	cemerick	stuarthalloway: I've always liked Fault and Signal
11:20	hugod	TimMc We've been implementing that sort of message buildup with contexts in pallet
11:20	stuarthalloway	TimMc: yes, like any class name it will show up in stack traces
11:21	stuarthalloway	cemerick: both good
11:21	TimMc	cemerick: Nice.
11:21	stuarthalloway	seems like we have three categories of possible name
11:21	stuarthalloway	(1) synonym for exception, suggesting that this is how you do it in Clojure, e.g. Fault Signal
11:22	TimMc	stuarthalloway: Was wondering specifically whether it would show up in the trace as itself, or whether the data and trace it carries would be raised in the form of another exception.
11:22	stuarthalloway	(2) something that tells you the exception carries info, e.g. DataCarryingException or StructuredException
11:22	jkkramer	PayloadException
11:22	jkkramer	?
11:22	stuarthalloway	or (3) goofy brand name. e.g. Mulligan or Fit
11:22	TimMc	"FooException" tells me "Something went wrong in or with Foo"
11:23	gfredericks	"Something went wrong in or with Structured"
11:23	stuarthalloway	yeah
11:23	stuarthalloway	which argues for a category 1 name
11:23	cemerick	CamelCaseOftenHurts
11:23	cemerick	ExceptionStructuredThusly, or perhaps ExceptionCarryingData
11:24	TimMc	If we use cat 2, s/Exception/Exc/
11:24	stuarthalloway	then the tradeoff becomes name length
11:24	gfredericks	(throw (new E))
11:24	stuarthalloway	as this may become the exception you typically deal with in Clojure
11:24	TimMc	\o/
11:25	raek	an adjective or a verb in -ing form has the advantage of not making sense when interpreted as "Something went wrong in or with _____"
11:25	gfredericks	"Something went wrong while _____"
11:25	raek	hrm, yeah
11:25	gfredericks	not for adjectives though
11:25	gfredericks	ColorfulException
11:26	raek	forgot that the -ing ending can form both a noun and an adjective... :/
11:26	raek	naming is always the hardest part :)
11:27	gfredericks	VectorSetPointerOutOfKeyHashException
11:27	TimMc	gfredericks: Good one, no one will have any preconceptions.
11:28	gfredericks	if we had punctuation in class names we could (throw (new E!??!))
11:28	TimMc	So the point here is to have a single exception class that allows non-type-based dispatch?
11:28	gfredericks	how does it relate to slingshot?
11:28	stuarthalloway	TimMc: 1st goal IMO is to have data
11:28	TimMc	k
11:29	raek	RequestSpecificProcessorFactoryFactoryException
11:29	stuarthalloway	gfredericks: hopefully slingshot would use it as mechanism and not need AOT compilation as a result
11:29	gfredericks	PregnantException
11:29	gfredericks	stuarthalloway: so it's mostly just replacing slingshot's Stone class?
11:29	stuarthalloway	TimMc: there is, ahem, disagreement about how/whether to do non-type based dispatch
11:30	stuarthalloway	gfredericks: that is a slingshot specific way of looking at it :-)
11:30	TimMc	Bubble
11:30	gfredericks	HotPotato
11:30	TimMc	(blow (Bubble.))
11:30	gfredericks	\o/
11:30	stuarthalloway	I am leaning toward a category 1 (synonym for exception) name
11:30	stuarthalloway	all the "I has data" names are too long and ugly
11:31	TimMc	gfredericks: I am totally going to use HotPotato in my next Java project.
11:31	stuarthalloway	and once you get use to it ("of course Clojure exceptions have data") you won't care about that anymore
11:31	hugod	stuarthalloway: will this introduce new try and throw forms?
11:31	stuarthalloway	hugod: no and maybe
11:32	stuarthalloway	no: this is a freestanding simple thing
11:32	stuarthalloway	maybe: at some point in the future some enhanced exception capabilities might use it
11:32	TimMc	stuarthalloway: Fault is less likely to name-collide than Signal.
11:32	stuarthalloway	TimMc: and I don't want to encourage the notion of signalling for non-error conditions
11:32	TimMc	And Signal might encourage control-flow usage -- is that bad?
11:32	TimMc	right
11:33	stuarthalloway	TimMc :-)
11:33	TimMc	Is that still expensive in the JVM?
11:33	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:33	@rhickey	@stuarthalloway you are talking about the interface name?
11:33	TimMc	clojurebot: Maybe when you're older.
11:33	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:33	stuarthalloway	rhickey: no, the concrete name
11:33	stuarthalloway	which people will have to throw and catch
11:35	@rhickey	hrm, the interface not buying us anything then
11:36	stuarthalloway	beautiful Java
11:36	stuarthalloway	can neither throw nor catch and interface
11:36	@rhickey	that changes things a bit
11:37	stuarthalloway	s/and/an
11:37	lazybot	<stuarthalloway> can neither throw nor catch an interface
11:37	TimMc	You can't catch an interface?
11:37	stuarthalloway	TimMc: you have to catch a subclass of Throwable
11:37	TimMc	Aha!
11:37	hugod	is it envisaged that people will subclass this? or that core will subclass it?
11:38	gfredericks	stuarthalloway: were you not paying attention when they taught us that the Square and the Triangle class can both be subclasses of Shape and isn't that great?
11:38	stuarthalloway	hugod: hope not!
11:38	@rhickey	ExceptionData?
11:38	gfredericks	that sounds like it's not an exception
11:38	stuarthalloway	yeah
11:38	@rhickey	what is an exception?
11:39	stuarthalloway	(to gfredericks)
11:39	gfredericks	is this a trick question?
11:39	@rhickey	nope
11:39	@rhickey	Does Exception sound like an exception?
11:39	gfredericks	then (partial instance? Exception), I would say
11:39	@rhickey	or Throwable?
11:39	stuarthalloway	a piece of data passed by stack unwinding
11:40	gfredericks	rhickey: ExceptionData sounds like just a data class, e.g., that an exception would keep an instance of
11:40	stuarthalloway	rhickey: I am warming to it
11:40	@rhickey	only the derived typed sound like exceptions, insofar as they (the types) convey the error. The point of this class is that its type does not convey the error
11:41	stuarthalloway	rhickey: and is the interface dead now, just a concrete getData method?
11:41	@rhickey	it itself is information about the error
11:41	@rhickey	ExceptionInfo w/getData
11:41	@rhickey	?
11:42	@rhickey	stuarthalloway: yes, dead
11:42	stuarthalloway	ExceptionInfo w /getData works for me
11:42	@rhickey	stuarthalloway: go for it
11:42	stuarthalloway	useful to note that .NET API name is getData
11:42	stuarthalloway	or however they capitalize it
11:42	stuarthalloway	and correctly placed on the base class
11:43	stuarthalloway	cemerick: while I like Signal, I have come around to ExceptionInfo because it implies a position about what exceptions are
11:43	lucian	GetData most likely
11:44	@rhickey	chouser: Signal just invites new semantics not supplied
11:44	stuarthalloway	cemerick: did anybody finalize the reflection warning patch? I want to apply that today too
11:44	TimMc	rhickey: How about Fault?
11:44	cemerick	Yeah chouser, knock it off! ;-)
11:44	chouser	sorry! man.
11:45	cemerick	stuarthalloway: I don't think so; I can add the test in a separate patch on the ticket if you like.
11:45	@rhickey	ExceptionInfo supports IDeref in addition to getData?
11:45	stuarthalloway	which returns what?
11:45	@rhickey	the map
11:45	gfredericks	getData always returns a Map? or an Object?
11:46	@rhickey	Map
11:46	stuarthalloway	but the map isn't everything (does not have the message, stacktrace)
11:46	@rhickey	stuarthalloway: right, so?
11:46	stuarthalloway	makes me feel uncomfortable with IDeref
11:46	gfredericks	should it then be assoc'able as well so you can add more data?
11:47	@rhickey	ok, but getData is going to look gross, so you'll need to wrap it in Clojure with ___
11:47	stuarthalloway	gfredericks: maps are assoc'able
11:47	TimMc	But it HasA, not IsA.
11:47	gfredericks	stuarthalloway: right, but then you'd have to construct the new ExceptionData manually
11:47	stuarthalloway	rhickey: I am usually the one with the casual attitude about IDeref-for-convenience :-)
11:47	gfredericks	(assoc my-exception-data :more "info") => returns new exception with data added to map
11:48	gfredericks	doesn't IDeref normally imply state?
11:48	@rhickey	stuarthalloway: that's fine, just asking wat's the Clojure interface then (i.e. not (.getData ex))
11:48	stuarthalloway	gfredericks: no to assoc
11:48	TimMc	stuarthalloway: Interesting that the point is to carry data around, but you don't want to name it so that people just use it to carry data around.
11:48	TimMc	e.g. Signal
11:49	stuarthalloway	rhickey: error-info, exception-info, I dunno
11:49	stuarthalloway	TimMc: confused by that last
11:49	@rhickey	exception-info-info? They just caught ExceptionInfo
11:50	chouser	InfoException
11:50	@rhickey	aargh
11:50	TimMc	stuarthalloway: As in, you don't want it misused for multiple-return-values, etc.
11:50	chouser	and therefore info-exception-info :-)
11:50	@rhickey	BlahException implies a problem with Blah
11:50	chouser	Hm.
11:51	stuarthalloway	TimMc: vector or map work fine for that, no?
11:51	TimMc	True. I think I'm confused.
11:52	@rhickey	TimMc: we're getting a bunch of semantics from Exception/Throwable we can't disentangle, this isn't green field
11:52	stuarthalloway	TimMc: this is worth doing to prevent libs from requiring AOT just to have an exception type
11:52	TimMc	Right. That's an important point.
11:53	@rhickey	and to get people away from type switching error handling
11:53	@rhickey	a truly bad idea of JAva's
11:53	cemerick	It wouldn't be horrible if this exception type implemented IDeref, and returned a map of {:message … :trace … :data …}
11:54	@rhickey	cemerick: lots of problems with defining how much work that might do etc
11:54	@rhickey	we are just looking for access to what .getData provides
11:54	@rhickey	ex-data?
11:54	TimMc	cemerick: Feels a bit implementation-dependent.
11:54	gfredericks	~second
11:54	clojurebot	Motion seconded and carried. Next agenda item.
11:55	TimMc	gfredericks: Who are you seconding? :-)
11:55	cemerick	Then I'd agree that IDeref is unsuitable.
11:55	gfredericks	TimMc: rhickey re: ex-data
11:55	@rhickey	fine, not pushing that, ex-data or ___?
11:55	stuarthalloway	would ex-data have well defined semantics when passed a non ExceptionInfo?
11:55	@rhickey	nil
11:56	gfredericks	whereas getData always returns at least an empty map
11:56	@rhickey	no
11:56	gfredericks	no
11:56	gfredericks	:)
11:56	TimMc	getData would be a method, yeah?
11:56	cemerick	gfredericks: .getData sounds like it will be the method on the exception type
11:56	@rhickey	getData returns whatever map was supplied to the ctor, which might have been nil
11:57	gfredericks	cemerick: yes
11:57	TimMc	or NPE if the whole thing is nil
11:57	gfredericks	hard to avoid that one :)
11:57	stuarthalloway	I currently have it type checking for IPersistentMap not Map, though. Don't you dare pass a mutable map
11:57	@rhickey	ExceptionInfo, .getDAta, ex-info returns .getData if ExceptionInfo, else nil - objections?
11:58	stuarthalloway	works for me
11:58	cemerick	The quorum of 5 in irc @ 11:57 concur!
11:58	@rhickey	IPersistentMap is fine in API
11:58	chouser	This will be so nice
11:58	cemerick	:-P
11:58	@rhickey	people will need to know they can assoc on it to add passing upwards
11:59	chouser	Clojure itself will be throwing these eventually?
11:59	@rhickey	heh, I promised Stu that would be the first question
11:59	chouser	:-)
11:59	@rhickey	stuarthalloway: IPersistentMap in the surface API, not an internal check
12:00	stuarthalloway	ok
12:00	@rhickey	gotta run, thanks all
12:01	stuarthalloway	thx
12:08	Borkdude	I'm trying to use twitter-api and I succeed in getting multiple user information json via lookup-users, when I provide it with some user ids. But in some cases I get this error msg: No implementation of method: :read-json-from of protocol: #'clojure.data.json/Read-JSON-From found for class: nil
12:08	Borkdude
12:08	Borkdude	any clues?
12:08	Borkdude	The script I made is up here: https://gist.github.com/1287481
12:09	Squeese	Doing the 4clojure.com problems as learning clojure, any reference one can use to check if solutions actually are correct? :P I could be solving world hunger when its a one-line nobrainer
12:10	gtrak	Squeese, there's a code golf that tells you how long yours is compared to others'
12:10	Squeese	on the site?
12:15	TimMc	Squeese: Go to account settings and join the Golf League
12:15	Squeese	TimMc: oh, thx
12:15	TimMc	You can also follow other users to see their solutions.
12:15	TimMc	Squeese: And don't forget #4clojure !
12:15	Squeese	again, really appreciate the help, my "help vampire meter" is giving off alarms atm :))
12:16	TimMc	haha, no worries
12:17	kzar	If you where writing an API that accepted big files for processing how would you manage the queue of things to process? I'm using Noir, I've got the processing code ready but I don't want to process everything at the time of request in case it takes too long
12:18	lucian	kzar: you could use a queue system that you set tasks in, and have code run on it separately from the frontend
12:18	lucian	like a cron job
12:22	kzar	lucian: Oh right, I see yea you're right. Write incoming files to a directory and set up a cron job that lists those files by creation date and processes them.
12:23	lucian	kzar: sure. or you could use something like 0MQ
12:23	lucian	there's celery for python, don't know about clojure/java
12:40	di-csuehs	I see how I can define method implementations that dispatch on arity of arguments. I'm looking at how to best define a method that could take a java.io.File or a String. Do I need to resort to a multimethod or am I overthinking it?
12:46	dnolen	di-csuehs: it's a good idea to reach for multimethods first.
12:49	PPPaul	i want to have functions called from java in my lein project.... how to?
12:50	kzar	If I want to include sample files in a project but I don't want those files to be built into the jar or anything where should I put them?
12:50	kzar	I was putting them in resources/samples but it occurred to me they might all be shoved in the jar later and they are massive
12:51	TimMc	kzar: Just make a new folder called samples. I really doubt lein will package it up.
12:52	TimMc	To be on the safe side, look over the lein project.clj options and see if the folder name you want is a default for anything.
12:52	PPPaul	>_<
12:53	raek	kzar: take a look at https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/1.x/sample.project.clj
12:54	raek	kzar: it mentions :extra-classpath-dirs
12:54	TimMc	PPPaul: You mean, you want to call out to Java from a Clojure file?
12:54	raek	those will be included in the classpath but not in the jar
12:54	`fogus	I'm working on a super-mega invokedynamic post (from a Clojure perspective)... anyone interested in reading a draft?
12:54	PPPaul	i want to call clojure from java
12:54	PPPaul	clojure in a lein project
12:55	raek	PPPaul: https://gist.github.com/1273014
12:55	PPPaul	i've done it via a main method... i want to make some static methods
12:55	PPPaul	thanks
12:55	raek	this is one way to do it
12:55	raek	another nice way is to define an interface in java and let the clojure code implement it
12:55	PPPaul	hmmm
12:55	raek	e.g. with deftype, defrecord or proxy
12:56	PPPaul	i'm using gen-class
12:56	PPPaul	i don't want to scare my java programming buddies
12:56	raek	gen-class is useful too when the java code needs a concrete class
12:56	raek	but it makes it harder to do interactive development
12:56	PPPaul	i'm following this site, but it's not working: http://java.dzone.com/articles/java-clojure-interop-calling
12:57	PPPaul	keeping my java buddies happy is more important than interactive dev
12:58	gfredericks	PPPaul: use a FactoryBean?
12:58	raek	PPPaul: you need to AOT compile the namespace for gen-class to work
12:58	PPPaul	factory bean?
12:58	PPPaul	ok
12:58	PPPaul	i made an uber jar
12:59	PPPaul	that's not good enough?
12:59	gfredericks	PPPaul: bad joke
12:59	PPPaul	yeah, i was looking that up... spring... wtf :P
12:59	raek	PPPaul: I think you need to make an :aot your-namespace entry in your project.clj file
12:59	PPPaul	ok, i'm going to try that
12:59	gfredericks	PPPaul: honestly I don't even really know what a factory bean is
13:00	raek	PPPaul: but consider using deftype/defrecord/reify/proxy with an ordinary java interface
13:01	PPPaul	hmmm, i have no java interfaces
13:02	raek	if you have "public interface Foo { void a(); void b(); }" then the java devs don't need to know that the Foo instance they receive was dynamically instantiated by clojure
13:02	PPPaul	i'm not making something that is going to be interacting with the java project, just a util package that runs along side it... i don't want to have it depend on the java project
13:03	PPPaul	i understand that
13:04	PPPaul	i'm only giving them static methods, though
13:04	raek	ok, in that case gen-class is perhaps the most convenient way
13:05	raek	another way could be to write a class in java that calls RT.var("clojure.core", "require").invoke(Symbol.intern("foo.bar")); in its static inializer
13:05	gfredericks	PPPaul: I wrote some utility code that takes your NS and makes all the public functions static methods on the gen-class
13:06	gfredericks	to reduce the boilerplate and maintenance
13:06	raek	and that has a static method for each function you want to expose (which just calls RT.var("foo.bar", "some-fn").invoke("Hello interop!");)
13:06	raek	essentially what gen-class does, so maybe a bit unessecary
13:07	gfredericks	I've also ended up deing exactly what raek just suggested. The difference being the compile-time relationship between the codebases
13:09	raek	it would be nice to be able to just compile the gen-class part of a namespace
13:10	PPPaul	hmmm
13:11	PPPaul	i want 1 static method and 1 class.... it can't be so hard
13:11	PPPaul	i don't care about the boiler
13:12	PPPaul	do you see anything wrong with my gen-class?
13:12	PPPaul	is my :name wrong?
13:14	gfredericks	:name has to be fully qualified, static methods have to be explicitly marked
13:15	PPPaul	ok
13:15	PPPaul	example? :D
13:15	PPPaul	i removed my "name
13:15	PPPaul	:name
13:15	PPPaul	hope that will help
13:15	gfredericks	:name foo.bar.Baz, :methods [[^:static runHelloWorld [] Object]]
13:16	gfredericks	you can leave off :name but I'm not sure what it defaults to
13:16	gfredericks	also your function names have to be prefixed, so in the case of my example you would (defn -runHelloWorld [] ...)
13:16	llasram	gfredericks: defaults to the name of the namespace
13:16	gfredericks	llasram: will it also do that if you call (gen-class) directly?
13:17	llasram	gfredericks: Oh, no. Non-optional in that case
13:17	gfredericks	kay
13:17	PPPaul	ok, i changed my method name... going to see if this works
13:18	llasram	PPPaul: Is the issue specifically doing it in a leiningen project, getting the code to build in the right order?
13:20	llasram	I haven't done much stuff with mixed Java-Clojure projects, but leiningen's builtin support for them appears on casual analysis to just build the Java first, then build the Clojure.
13:21	PPPaul	i'm using lein
13:22	PPPaul	https://gist.github.com/1287721
13:22	PPPaul	that is my project.clj
13:22	PPPaul	my program still isn't callabled from java
13:22	PPPaul	i think my class is found, though
13:22	llasram	And are you using it with a single project containing Java and Clojure code, where you want the Java code to Clojure code?
13:23	PPPaul	i'm making a stand along static class that i'm turning into an uberjar and giving to the java project
13:23	llasram	Oh, ok then. nm :-)
13:23	PPPaul	i don't see where my code is used
13:25	PPPaul	this is my src https://gist.github.com/1287730
13:25	PPPaul	really hoping to figure this out :)
13:28	BruceBGordon	lein newbie help. Lein isn't configured properly.
13:28	BruceBGordon	bruce@mepis1:~/bin$ lein search hadoop
13:28	BruceBGordon	Warning: couldn't download index for http://repo1.maven.org/maven2
13:28	BruceBGordon	Warning: couldn't download index for http://clojars.org/repo/
13:28	BruceBGordon	bruce@mepis1:~/bin$
13:28	PPPaul	well
13:28	PPPaul	my package is being detected, my not classes
13:28	PPPaul	package being touchViews
13:34	robermann	PPPaul: your Java packages import "touchViews.core" ?
13:34	Squeese	4clojure ftw, amount learned / time > books =)
13:36	Squeese	but then again, a book would proably teach me why (conj [1 2] 3) => [1 2 3] and (conj '(1 2) 3) => (3 1 2) ;P
13:38	gfredericks	Squeese: is that a question? :)
13:39	Squeese	if you know and its trivial, sure :)
13:39	Squeese	feel free to tell me to read a book though ^^
13:39	gfredericks	it's the difference between lists and vectors. Lists are essentially linked lists, so it's much easier to add to the front than the end
13:39	gfredericks	vectors are optimized for random access/updates and for adding to the end
13:40	gfredericks	conj is a function that adds to a data structure in some way that's appropriate for that data structure
13:40	gfredericks	contrast with ##(cons 7 [1 2 3])
13:40	lazybot	⇒ (7 1 2 3)
13:40	ibdknox_	,(conj {} [:a "hey"])
13:40	clojurebot	{:a "hey"}
13:40	gfredericks	,(conj #{8 9} 9 10)
13:40	clojurebot	#{8 9 10}
13:41	gfredericks	,(cons #{5 6 3} 4)
13:41	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
13:41	gfredericks	w00ps
13:41	ibdknox_	lol
13:41	gfredericks	,(cons 4 #{5 6 3})
13:41	clojurebot	(4 3 5 6)
13:41	gfredericks	point being that cons ignores the type of the collection you pass in and just treats it like a seq
13:41	Squeese	what is cons short for?
13:42	llasram	cons
13:42	ibdknox_	,(doc cons)
13:42	clojurebot	"([x seq]); Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is the rest."
13:42	gfredericks	cons is kind of classic
13:42	Squeese	aha ok :)
13:42	gfredericks	it doesn't need to stand for anything
13:42	ibdknox_	Squeese: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons
13:42	ibdknox_	stands for constructs
13:42	ibdknox_	like conj = conjoin
13:43	Squeese	ahh I see
13:43	Squeese	sweet, thanks btw :D
13:45	ibdknox_	clojurebot: thanks is We live to serve.
13:45	clojurebot	In Ordnung
13:45	ibdknox_	~thanks
13:45	clojurebot	thanks is We live to serve.
13:45	ibdknox_	hm
13:46	ibdknox_	clojurebot: forget thanks \|is\| thanks is We live to serve.
13:46	clojurebot	I forgot that thanks is thanks is We live to serve.
13:46	ibdknox_	clojurebot: thanks \|is\| We live to serve.
13:46	clojurebot	Ok.
13:47	ibdknox_	~thanks
13:47	clojurebot	thanks is We live to serve.
13:47	ibdknox_	hrm
13:47	ibdknox_	I give up :p
13:48	technomancy	clojurebot: forget thanks \|is\| We live to serve.
13:48	clojurebot	I forgot that thanks is We live to serve.
13:48	technomancy	clojurebot: thanks is <reply>We live to serve.
13:48	clojurebot	In Ordnung
13:48	ibdknox_	ah
13:48	ibdknox_	~thanks
13:48	clojurebot	We live to serve.
13:48	ibdknox_	I see
13:48	ibdknox_	technomancy: thanks ;)
13:48	technomancy	we... uh...
13:49	technomancy	wait a minute
13:49	technomancy	heh
13:49	ibdknox_	hehe
13:51	floatboth	Hi everyone! I want to split a monolithic framework into packages (like Ring or, well, Ruby on Rails) and I have questions… First, any better ideas for running tests for all of the packages on CI (= with one command) than a shell script that fails if `lein midje` fails in any of them?
13:52	technomancy	floatboth: there's a lein plugin for that, but I don't remember the name
13:52	technomancy	ah, lein-sub
13:53	floatboth	technomancy: thanks
13:55	technomancy	sure
13:59	Borkdude	Is there a map variant which concats the resulting seqs from every "iteration"?
14:00	Borkdude	like map-str only more general
14:00	smerritt	mapcat, perhaps?
14:00	smerritt	,(doc mapcat)
14:00	clojurebot	"([f & colls]); Returns the result of applying concat to the result of applying map to f and colls. Thus function f should return a collection."
14:01	Borkdude	ah yes, tnx
14:02	Borkdude	wonder why it didn't come up when I entered map into clojuredocs
14:07	timvisher	do multi-methods support variable argument implementations?
14:08	timvisher	arities, as the big kids say. :)
14:09	jcromartie	I dunno... have you trie?
14:09	jcromartie	tried
14:09	timvisher	looks like no
14:09	jcromartie	maybe throw a trie in, for fun
14:12	amalloy	timvisher: multimethod implementations are just functions, and can do anything functions can do
14:13	Borkdude	finally, it works! https://gist.github.com/1287481
14:14	timvisher	amalloy: gotcha. i think i'm just too green to get it at the moment. first forray into multi-methods and all that
14:14	BruceBGordon	lein cannot use repositories-bad configuration?
14:15	BruceBGordon	bruce@mepis1:~/bin$ lein search hadoop
14:15	BruceBGordon	Warning: couldn't download index for http://repo1.maven.org/maven2
14:15	BruceBGordon	Warning: couldn't download index for http://clojars.org/repo/
14:15	amalloy	&(doc clojure.string/join) ; Borkdude
14:15	lazybot	⇒ "([coll] [separator [x & more]]); Returns a string of all elements in coll, separated by an optional separator. Like Perl's join."
14:16	Borkdude	amalloy: tnx,will improve that one
14:16	amalloy	also your code is a little hard to follow because you :use whole namespaces, without indicating which functions come from where
14:17	Borkdude	amalloy: good point
14:18	gfredericks	my fingers hurt. What do I need to purchase?
14:19	BruceBGordon	similarly >lein repl fails because ...
14:19	BruceBGordon	bruce@mepis1:~/cloj2$ lein repl
14:19	BruceBGordon	Downloading: org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/clojure-1.2.1.pom from central
14:19	BruceBGordon	Downloading: org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/clojure-1.2.1.pom from clojars
14:19	BruceBGordon	Downloading: org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/clojure-1.2.1.pom from central
14:19	BruceBGordon	Downloading: org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/clojure-1.2.1.jar from central
14:19	BruceBGordon	Downloading: org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/clojure-1.2.1.jar from clojars
14:19	BruceBGordon	Downloading: org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/clojure-1.2.1.jar from central
14:19	BruceBGordon	An error has occurred while processing the Maven artifact tasks.
14:19	BruceBGordon	Diagnosis:
14:19	BruceBGordon	Unable to resolve artifact: Missing:
14:19	BruceBGordon	----------
14:19	BruceBGordon	1) org.clojure:clojure:jar:1.2.1
14:19	gtrak	BruceBGordon, stop
14:19	amalloy	BruceBGordon: someone is going to murder you for pasting all this. don't make it be me
14:20	floatboth	BruceBGordon: y u no use gist.github.com
14:20	amalloy	http://gist.github.com is available for pasting
14:20	TimMc	and just to be thorough
14:20	TimMc	~paste
14:20	clojurebot	paste is http://gist.github.com/
14:21	BruceBGordon	apologies for not knowing protocol. I just hope this forum isn't too self correcting (I'd like to be alive)!
14:22	gtrak	,(kill BruceBGordon)
14:22	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: kill in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:22	gtrak	you're lucky today
14:22	BruceBGordon	ok, already (sigh) cross-posted to google group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/f170ec06d19fb038#
14:23	BruceBGordon	(areYouFeeelingLuckyTodayPunk :BruceBGordon)
14:24	gfredericks	~camelCase
14:24	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:24	Borkdude	amalloy: check again, https://gist.github.com/1287481
14:24	amalloy	$kill ; gtrak
14:24	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
14:25	TimMc	and the ever popular
14:25	TimMc	~guards
14:25	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
14:27	amalloy	looks pretty good, Borkdude
14:29	TimMc	amalloy: Some channels have bots that kickban people for 5 seconds if they paste more than X lines of text in under Y ms.
14:30	TimMc	That would be a spiffy feature for lazybot.
14:30	TimMc	It happens enough...
14:30	gfredericks	as long as it sends an explanatory message
14:31	TimMc	True. It would be rude not to.
14:31	TimMc	"You have been sentenced to clojail for 10 seconds for flooding the channel."
14:32	gfredericks	and it should suggest gist, else the first thing they will do is ask how to get the bot to let them paste their 20 lines
14:32	TimMc	This is actually one of the most laid-back channels I've been in.
14:32	TimMc	gfredericks: Good idea!
14:33	gfredericks	This is actually one of the only channels I've been in.
14:33	amalloy	gfredericks: lazybot does have an ops plugin, but (a) i don't know if it's ever been used and (b) i don't know if anyone wants to give bots ops in here
14:37	TimMc	bots with ops are the best
14:37	TimMc	What could possibly go wrong?
14:38	amalloy	~skynet
14:38	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
14:39	TimMc	foonetic.net#xkcd has billygoat, which enforces some channel rules. It has some heuristics that will kick people who try to provoke n00bs into accidentally getting kicked by the bot.
14:40	technomancy	I would actually appreciate an auto-ban for myself as I've accidentally middle-clicked a couple times
14:40	technomancy	kicking, not so much. but banning, sure.
14:40	`fogus	http://blog.fogus.me/2011/10/14/why-clojure-doesnt-need-invokedynamic-but-it-might-be-nice/
14:40	TimMc	technomancy: Needs to be a ban, because many clients will auto-rejoin.
14:46	stuartsierra	`fogus: nice
14:47	stuartsierra	But I think you meant to say Paul Stadig was "eminent", not "imminent."
14:48	hiredman	paul is your boss too?
14:48	stuartsierra	I admit, I enjoyed the mental image enough that I'm hesitant to correct it.
14:49	floatboth	what is the right way to put variables into leiningen dep versions? ~`([package-name ~version-var]) == lein trying to use leiningen/core/package-name
14:49	hiredman	floatboth: don't
14:50	floatboth	hiredman: really?
14:50	technomancy	weeeeellll...
14:50	TimMc	haha
14:50	hiredman	floatboth: yes
14:51	technomancy	it could be justified if you have a bunch of deps that all share the same version, and you want to be able to increment it in one place
14:51	TimMc	technomancy: I bet you have all sorts of nasty weird implementation-dependent tricks in your project.clj
14:51	technomancy	but just ~foo-lib-version should be enough; no need for anything fancy
14:51	floatboth	that is subprojects
14:51	technomancy	TimMc: I'm hesitant to even publicize unquoting in defproject actually =)
14:52	floatboth	just unquoting doesn't work
14:52	technomancy	it's an escape hatch for when lein isn't flexible enough; better to make it work without it
14:52	technomancy	floatboth: maybe a gist?
14:53	floatboth	http://mfwb.us/ds4J
14:54	technomancy	floatboth: need to see project.clj
14:54	floatboth	http://mfwb.us/yQkM
14:55	amalloy	`fogus: "However, it’s worth noting that through compile-time type inferencing, most interop calls are emitted in the most efficient ways possible" - really? i realize it can infer when you use literals, but it seems to me that most interop calls emit reflection
14:56	hiredman	it would be an interesting survey of clojure projects
14:56	ibdknox	hiredman, what would?
14:56	technomancy	floatboth: you're using a list instead of a vector for :deps
14:57	TimMc	hiredman: How much uses reflection?
14:57	floatboth	oh snap, totally forgot about it, thanks
14:57	hiredman	ibdknox: checking what percentage of calls end up being reflective
14:58	TimMc	hiredman: Statically or at runtime? (That is, weighted by number of calls.)
14:58	TimMc	Or does HotSpot help with that?
14:58	ibdknox	indeed. It probably wouldn't be too hard to scrape a list of clojure projects from github and run them
14:58	hiredman	:(
14:59	hiredman	I was just thinking to maybe do a patched clojure build that exposed some counters then run our tests at work with it
15:00	ibdknox	That would definitely be easier :)
15:01	Twey	So, if the Clojure-running scripts are all rubbish… what is the accepted way to run a Clojure program? Am I supposed to write a Java launcher every time?
15:01	ibdknox	Twey, lein run
15:01	hiredman	java -jar foo.jar
15:01	hiredman	works great
15:01	TimMc	Twey: For development, lein (or cake) is all you need.
15:01	Twey	hiredman: I have to compile it first :þ
15:01	hiredman	lein will also generate shell scripts too
15:01	Twey	TimMc: Yeah, except lein doesn't work with my project.
15:01	hiredman	Twey: and?
15:01	TimMc	For deployment, package it up.
15:01	hiredman	Twey: use lein
15:01	Twey	hiredman: lein doesn't work with SWT as far as I can tell.
15:01	ibdknox	Twey, huh? what do you mean lein doesn't work with your project?
15:01	hiredman	if lein doesn't work with your project you should make it
15:02	TimMc	Oh, is that still not working? :-(
15:02	Twey	I've been trying for the past several hours
15:02	raek	(context: he's using swt which has native deps)
15:02	Twey	Right
15:02	hiredman	sure, and technomancy is very interested in native deps
15:03	technomancy	Twey: what kind of native deps? slfe in the jar?
15:03	hiredman	https://github.com/santamon/GUIFTW/wiki/One-Tutorial-For-All
15:03	hiredman	^- seems to imply swt does work
15:03	Twey	I think just a couple of .so's
15:03	Twey	hiredman: Perhaps, but not for me.
15:03	Twey	(I followed exactly that when raek pointed it out earlier)
15:04	technomancy	Twey: the specific paths inside the jar are important
15:04	technomancy	is it something you can show publicly?
15:05	Twey	technomancy: I don't even have any code yet, so yes :þ
15:06	Twey	Hang on, there's another .jar on jarvana that I haven't tried — I'll give that a go first
15:09	amalloy	`fogus: also, the timing results for jruby have no context unless i follow links and read like two more articles. is 2 better than 0.5? what does 37 even mean?
15:10	stuartsierra	C'mon, OBVIOUSLY 2 is better than 37. ;)
15:10	ibdknox	It's golf right?
15:10	Twey	Ugh, no, no good
15:11	Twey	technomancy: My project.clj basically goes like this: (defproject swt "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT" :description "FIXME: write description" :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.2.1"] [org.eclipse/swt-linux-gtk "3.0m8"]])
15:12	Twey	(er, bad example maybe — this is using the new jar, which gives a somewhat different error)
15:12	ibdknox	Twey, gists are your friend :)
15:13	Twey	ibdknox: It was only one line…
15:14	Raynes	ibdknox: The man has a point.
15:14	ibdknox	ok ok
15:14	Raynes	Twey: But it was such a long, complex line. IRC can't take it.
15:15	ibdknox	;)
15:15	Raynes	Twey: I know you from somewhere. You're a Haskeller, right?
15:15	Twey	You know me from many places
15:15	Twey	I am, amongst other things
15:15	Raynes	I know you're an awfully smart fellow.
15:15	Raynes	Welcome to Clojure-land.
15:15	Twey	We share a few forums, too
15:15	Twey	Thanks
15:15	technomancy	Twey: that jar's not in any of the default repos
15:16	Twey	I'm trying to make myself comfortable, but I get the feeling Clojure doesn't want me here :þ
15:16	Twey	technomancy: I was told to find it on Jarvana
15:16	Raynes	SWT is really strange. They seem to abolish maven.
15:16	technomancy	jarvana is a search engine; they don't actually serve jars afaik
15:17	Borkdude	Twey: we try to prevent Clojure to become a mainstream language. What fun is it to be a fan of something mainstream...
15:17	ibdknox	I've heard we say "no" a lot... ;)
15:17	ibdknox	~rimshot
15:17	clojurebot	Badum, ching
15:18	Raynes	http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Cswt There seems to be some jars on maven.
15:18	Twey	technomancy: Well, I've tried this one: http://jarvana.com/jarvana/view/org/eclipse/swt/gtk/linux/x86_64/3.3.0-v3346/x86_64-3.3.0-v3346.jar!/org/eclipse/swt/SWT.class?classDetails=ok and this one: http://jarvana.com/jarvana/view/swt/swt-linux-gtk/3.0m8/swt-linux-gtk-3.0m8.jar!/org/eclipse/swt/SWT.class?classDetails=ok
15:18	Raynes	Particularly, 3.0.1
15:18	hiredman	Twey: what is the error you see?
15:19	Twey	The former gives an ‘UnsatisfiedLinkException’ saying it can't find swt-gtk; the latter a ‘NoClassDefFoundError: org/eclipse/swt/internal/gtk/OS’
15:19	Twey	Sorry, ‘UnsatisfiedLinkError’
15:21	technomancy	there are two approaches to native jars. 0) many projects will include a bunch of .so files in the jar and extract them in their own init code. this is a lot less hassle if they are targeting a variety of build systems since it should always work
15:21	technomancy	1) is to place the .so files in a certain directory structure in the jars, and lein will extract them and set LD_LIBRARY_PATH for you
15:22	Twey	Right
15:22	Twey	But apparently the SWT jars don't do either
15:26	technomancy	aha; apparently the groupid is wrong; it's just swt/swt-linux-gtk
15:26	technomancy	Twey: what code triggers that link error for you?
15:27	Twey	(import 'org.eclipse.swt.widgets.Display) (from lein repl)
15:27	Borkdude	I have a very basic question, almost ashamed to ask. So far I've only used project.clj and lein deps to get the jars my project depends on. What is the best way to include a self-produced jar into a project, just copy it into lib?
15:29	Twey	Borkdude: I guess register it with Maven & add it as a dependency like everything else
15:29	Borkdude	hm.
15:29	technomancy	Borkdude: ideally you want to get it into a remove maven repo
15:29	technomancy	*remote
15:29	technomancy	though if you don't need to share it among your team you could use lein-localrepo
15:30	Borkdude	technomancy: I'm just testing, no need to share
15:30	`fogus	amalloy: Sorry, missed your messages.
15:30	Twey	technomancy: The groupId on what, exactly?
15:30	Borkdude	I will figure out lein-localrepo
15:30	technomancy	Twey: [org.eclipse/swt-linux-gtk "3.0m8"] does not resolve
15:30	amalloy	no worries, irc is async. just providing feedback
15:30	`fogus	amalloy: Do you really see that most calls are inferred as reflective?
15:31	Twey	technomancy: Ah, I see
15:31	technomancy	changing it to [swt/swt-linux-gtk "3.0m8"] made it so I could download the jar, but apparently it does not declare its dependencies correctly as I get a ClassNotFoundException when I try to do the import.
15:31	`fogus	amalloy: WRT: JRuby units of awesomeness... I have no idea... maybe Charlie can provide some feedback. :-)
15:32	amalloy	`fogus: i'm not sure, really. i haven't done any particular studies on it, but it seems like unless you construct-and-use an object strictly within a single function it has to be reflective
15:32	Twey	technomancy: nod That's what I get from that one, too
15:32	stuartsierra	Arent't they just time measurements?
15:32	stuartsierra	^ `fogus, amalloy
15:32	amalloy	whereas a huge % of interop calls i see are things like (.indexOf s) wrapped up in a function
15:33	amalloy	stuartsierra: yes, but i had to follow a link and read a different article to find that out :P
15:33	stuartsierra	Reading is good for you. :)
15:33	technomancy	Twey: upon dropping it to version 3.0m7 I'm able to repro the link error
15:33	`fogus	amalloy: I could be viewing that from my own perspective. I tend to localize interop calls.
15:34	technomancy	Twey: it looks like swt is not designed to work out-of-the-box and just forces the user to do the dirty work of native dependency resolution.
15:34	`fogus	stuartsierra: Timing? I was certain they were units of badassness
15:34	stuartsierra	This is Charlie we're talking about.
15:35	`fogus	So definitely badassness
15:35	`fogus	;-)
15:35	stuartsierra	But if it's units of badassness, wouldn't more be better?
15:35	Twey	technomancy: But how do I even do that with lein? Usually I would just dump some .so's in /usr/lib or something, but lein does all this odd dependency magic & I don't even see where I should put them
15:35	`fogus	stuartsierra: Touche!
15:35	technomancy	Twey: you can set :java-library-path in project.clj to the proper /usr/lib dir
15:36	`fogus	HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3112501
15:36	technomancy	Twey: sorry, that's not right
15:36	stuartsierra	`fogus: Let's call them Standard Units of Suckage. SOUS for short.
15:36	Twey	…
15:36	technomancy	Twey: it's either :native-path "/usr/lib/..." or :jvm-opts ["-Djava.library.path=/usr/lib/..."]
15:36	Twey	stuartsierra: I think you got that a little backwards
15:36	Twey	technomancy: Hmm, 'kay, thanks — I'll have a go
15:36	stuartsierra	eh
15:36	stuartsierra	whatever
15:37	cgray	is seq O(1)?
15:37	stuartsierra	yes
15:37	opqdonut	but evaluating a seq might require unbounded amounts of other evaluation
15:38	stuartsierra	true
15:38	opqdonut	I'm not really sure what "seq is O(1)" even means
15:38	dnolen	`fogus: you should probably mention the breaking change on the user list. Might be quite a few folks investing in CLJS in production that might feel the pain as a result.
15:39	opqdonut	i might have an inkling about what "seq is just a constant overhead" would mean
15:39	cgray	I'm doing (if (seq (rest foo)) bar baz)and hoping that's equivalent to (if (= (count foo) 1) bar baz) but O(1) rather than O(n)
15:39	`fogus	dnolen: I will. I wanted to get the dev-list perspective about technical details first
15:39	opqdonut	cgray: you hope correctly
15:39	dnolen	`fogus: it's a pretty simple idea, and sound :)
15:39	`fogus	dnolen: Cool! I will paste it to the clj list post-haste
15:39	opqdonut	cgray: but you might also want to consider next instead of rest
15:40	amalloy	cgray: fwiw, ##(doc next) is the same as (seq (rest ...))
15:40	lazybot	⇒ "([coll]); Returns a seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument. If there are no more items, returns nil."
15:40	stuartsierra	cgray: ClojureScript has a private function "bounded-count" for just this purpose.
15:40	amalloy	stuartsierra: nice
15:41	stuartsierra	And than function represents about 75% of my contribution to ClojureScript.
15:41	stuartsierra	*that
15:42	amalloy	stuartsierra: i've generally just used nthnext
15:42	stuartsierra	that works too
15:42	opqdonut	you're all misguided. this is clearly a use case for lazy naturals :)
15:42	Twey	technomancy: Hooray! It works! At last! Thank you very much ☺ With :native-path "/usr/lib", [swt/swt-linux-gtk "3.7.1"], & a locally-registered jar, I can finally begin development :þ Thanks!
15:43	stuartsierra	opqdonut: "Lazy Naturals" should be the name of a band. Or a book by Malcolm Gladwell.
15:44	Twey	technomancy: Actually, scratch half of that — using the newer SWT, I don't even need :native-path (the .so's are in the jar).
15:44	Twey	http://jarvana.com/jarvana/view/org/eclipse/swt/gtk/linux/x86_64/3.3.0-v3346/x86_64-3.3.0-v3346.jar!/org/eclipse/swt/SWT.class?classDetails=ok — which I think is what this tries to do, but it goes wrong?=
15:45	Twey	s/=$//
15:45	lazybot	<Twey> http://jarvana.com/jarvana/view/org/eclipse/swt/gtk/linux/x86_64/3.3.0-v3346/x86_64-3.3.0-v3346.jar!/org/eclipse/swt/SWT.class?classDetails=ok — which I think is what this tries to do, but it goes wrong?
15:54	Borkdude	technomancy: I'm a little stuck. Got the jar installed in the localrepo and it gets into the lib dir of the other project which depends on it. Also the jar is on the classpath (checked it in the REPL). But somehow I can't 'use' a namespace from it.
15:54	Borkdude	technomancy: this is how the clj inside the jar looks: https://gist.github.com/1287481
15:55	Borkdude	technomancy: if I do (use 'twitter-api-test.followers-minus-friends) I get an error about class missing or clj file not found
15:56	Raynes	Is that a real namespace?
15:56	Borkdude	Raynes: I'm just testing how this works
15:57	Raynes	Just wondering, because I was considering naming one of my namespaces get-audio-pronunciation-test.does-this-audio-link-from-wordnik-work-properly.
15:58	Borkdude	:)
16:03	gfredericks	what was that caching library?
16:04	brehaut	unk
16:05	gfredericks	I do believe that's exactly what I was thinking of.
16:06	gfredericks	brehaut: thx
16:08	sugrodeau	Hello everyone. How do you load a whole lein project in Slime? (I just use clojure-jack-in and hit C-c C-k. But this is only good for one file at a time.)
16:10	danlarkin	sugrodeau: what do you want to accomplish by "loading the whole project"
16:10	sugrodeau	danlarkin: So I can use any defined function at the repl.
16:11	`fogus	gfredericks: Unk is the memoization library built on the caching library Clache
16:11	danlarkin	sugrodeau: you can (use 'foo.bar) at the repl too
16:11	sugrodeau	danlarkin: Ah thanks, I'll try it out!
16:11	ipostelnik	`fogus, are unk/clache compatible with 1.2?
16:12	gfredericks	`fogus: been looking at the src, and unk solves my problem exactly
16:14	fliebel	Good morning, good evening and good night.
16:15	Borkdude	technomancy: got things working now, Raynes: simplifying filenames was a good idea shame on me
16:19	Borkdude	I have more questions, but I will not make more of a fool of myself tonight I guess ;)
16:20	dnolen	would be neat to hook up ClojureScript to this, http://www.plask.org/
16:25	`fogus	ipostelnik: Yes
16:26	hiredman	so when we compile our project at work (which also compiles and non-aot'ed deps) we end up with 2329 hostexprs 1000 of which end being reflective
16:26	brehaut	`fogus: footnote #7 is excellent
16:26	hiredman	,(double (/ (* 1000 100) 2329))
16:26	clojurebot	42.93688278231
16:27	amalloy	hiredman: how'd you measure that?
16:27	TimMc	,1000/2329
16:27	clojurebot	1000/2329
16:27	TimMc	,(* 1000/2329 100.)
16:27	clojurebot	42.93688278231
16:28	TimMc	Don't mind me, just golfing.
16:28	hiredman	I but some atomiclongs in the compiler and inc'd them as required and then had lein print out the values at the end of eval-in-project
16:28	amalloy	TimMc: not a very good golf then: ##,(/ 2329 .1)
16:28	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: .1 in this context
16:29	amalloy	TimMc: not a very good golf then: ##,(/ 2329 0.1)
16:29	lazybot	⇒ 23290.0
16:29	TimMc	hot damn
16:29	amalloy	hm. incorrect, but you see my point
16:29	amalloy	haha
16:29	TimMc	that's a lot of reflection
16:29	Borkdude	technomancy: do dependencies in project.clj work transitively?
16:30	technomancy	Borkdude: absolutely
16:31	Borkdude	also for localrepo?
16:31	technomancy	should be
16:31	Borkdude	technomancy: I read this thread, I have exactly the same problem http://groups.google.com/group/leiningen/browse_thread/thread/e25c5919e61b3ee1
16:33	Borkdude	technomancy: or I must be doing smth wrong (probably)
16:34	technomancy	Borkdude: are you seeing the same missing pom in ~/.m2 that the thread references?
16:38	Borkdude	technomancy: wait, it's fixed. I broke the chain somewhere, I'm sorry to have bugged you.
16:38	Borkdude	technomancy: tnx for a great tool btw
16:41	Borkdude	technomancy: it says it downloading my local jar from clojars, I wonder why this is
16:41	technomancy	Borkdude: if it's a snapshot, then it will check for new versions
16:41	fliebel	What is that array backed hash trie thing for the conj about?
16:41	Borkdude	technomancy: ic
16:44	fliebel	There was a link to a paper someone tweeted, I can't find it.
16:49	amalloy	$google phil bagwell hash array mapped trie paper
16:49	lazybot	[Ideal Hash Trees] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.21.6279&rep=rep1&type=pdf
16:50	amalloy	fliebel: i think that's the right paper. it's relevant, at least
16:50	fliebel	amalloy: Thanks :)
16:52	fliebel	I'll probably just do an unbalanced array mapped binary search tree initially though. (for my future Lego NXT compiler project)
17:12	DeusExPikachu	in clojurescript, can you pass clojure functions to javascript functions that expect javascript functions?
17:13	amalloy	DeusExPikachu: yes
18:11	jodaro	wow
18:12	jodaro	diff is great for unit tests
18:12	ibdknox	jodaro, how so?
18:13	jodaro	i'm working on a client for a restful api
18:13	jodaro	get back a bunch of json
18:13	jodaro	(diff what-it-should-look-like (my-api-cal :params))
18:13	jodaro	bam
18:14	jodaro	well obviously there is a little more to it than that
18:14	ibdknox	nice
18:14	jodaro	yeah
18:14	ibdknox	I guess the advantage is that you can see the exact difference easily?
18:15	jodaro	handy for recursively diffing objects
18:15	jodaro	right
18:15	amalloy	jodaro: if you use cake's develop branch, it automatically shows diffs on all failing assertions in tests
18:15	jodaro	[things-only-in-a things-only-in-b things-in-both].
18:15	jodaro
18:15	jodaro	is what (diff a b) returns
18:16	ibdknox	ah
18:16	ibdknox	sweet
18:16	ibdknox	I haven't messed with it yet
18:16	jodaro	yeah
18:16	jodaro	i just found it
18:16	jodaro	i guess given that its 1.3 thats why
18:17	ibdknox	amalloy, that's pretty sweet.
18:19	amalloy	ibdknox: https://gist.github.com/1627b97401686c72136b - but in sweet, sweet ansi color
18:20	jodaro	oh wow
18:20	ibdknox	ugh
18:20	jodaro	thats badass
18:20	ibdknox	I have way too much shit to do
18:20	jodaro	even in black and white
18:21	ibdknox	amalloy, I've also decided we don't use ansi-color enough in all our tools :p
18:22	amalloy	yeah, lancepantz has really improved cake-test over the past several weeks
18:22	technomancy	ibdknox: lein-difftest does that
18:22	ibdknox	technomancy, ooo
18:22	jodaro	hah
18:22	hiredman	well, it doesn't use clojure.data.diff or whatever
18:23	technomancy	true
18:23	ibdknox	hah who wants it then :p
18:23	technomancy	ibdknox: 1.2 users? =)
18:23	ibdknox	technomancy, there's only like 10 of those, right? ;)
18:24	jodaro	looking at lein-difftest
18:24	amalloy	ibdknox: yeah, the really-easy migration path has gotten everyone onto 1.3 in a matter of seconds :P
18:24	jodaro	still
18:24	ibdknox	haha
18:24	jodaro	i have to use diff directly
18:25	jodaro	because they aren't exactly the same
18:25	jodaro	the return from the api has more stuff in it
18:25	amalloy	jodaro: select-keys?
18:25	jodaro	oh that would work too
18:26	jodaro	i'm actually just using nth
18:26	jodaro	and pulling the third value from the diff return
18:26	jodaro	basically i want to know that the stuff i know about looks the same from both ends
18:27	Twey	So what was the reasoning behind ‘recur’ rather than doing normal TCO?
18:27	jodaro	i should probably clean it up with ->
18:27	hiredman	jvm doesn't do tco
18:27	amalloy	Twey: a lot of reasons, really
18:27	hiredman	well, people have come with lots of rationalizations
18:28	hiredman	but the real reason is "jvm doesn't do tco"
18:28	amalloy	heh
18:28	amalloy	yes. if the jvm did allow full tco, we would probably not have recur (except for the loop form? would we keep that?)
18:28	hiredman	you can emulate it on the jvm if you give up speed, or you can kludge it for a limited number of cases
18:29	hiredman	amalloy: they would be macros that expanded into letfns
18:30	amalloy	hiredman: letfn isn't necessary, right? ((fn recur [x] (... (recur))) init-x)
18:30	Twey	hiredman: Ah
18:30	hiredman	sure
18:30	hiredman	but I like letfn
18:31	amalloy	i have a love/hate thing with letfn
18:31	Twey	So there's no non-stack-using loop in the JVM to which one could compile TCs?
18:31	amalloy	Twey: sure, there is. but not across method-call boundaries
18:31	Twey	Ah, okay
18:31	hiredman	loop/recur infact turn into such a thing
18:32	amalloy	and clojure lets you do it within a single method using recur
18:33	amalloy	&(loop [sum 0, n 1e6] (if (zero? n) sum (recur (+ n sum) (dec n))))
18:33	lazybot	⇒ 5.000005E11
18:41	amalloy	i just noticed that if-not is implemented as `(if (not ~test) ~then ~else) - it seems to me like `(if ~test ~else ~then) is simpler
18:44	smerritt	amalloy: that wouldn't work for (if-not test then) with no else clause
18:45	amalloy	smerritt: (if test nil then)
18:45	hiredman	of course it would
18:46	smerritt	ah, right
18:48	smerritt	I was thinking of ~@else, which (of course) is not what's actually written there :0
18:49	amalloy	my client persists in highlighting crap like ~@else as if it were an email. always worth a chuckle
18:59	ghiu	can anyone explain me the second row of this code? http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Probabilistic_choice#Clojure how can it use [first & rest] as key? aren't they functions? what's with the "&"?
19:00	amalloy	ghiu: you can shadow global names locally if you want
19:00	amalloy	&(let [first 1] first)
19:00	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:00	amalloy	$google clojure destructuring
19:00	lazybot	[Jay Fields' Thoughts: Clojure: Destructuring] http://blog.jayfields.com/2010/07/clojure-destructuring.html
19:00	amalloy	&(let [[first & rest] (range 5)] {:first first, :rest rest})
19:00	lazybot	⇒ {:first 0, :rest (1 2 3 4)}
19:06	ghiu	oh, i see :)
19:06	ghiu	thank you
19:09	zakwilson	I've noticed at least a couple libraries for interacting with other systems using java.util.Date or java.sql.Date. It seems to me that it would be better if they used clj-time instead.
19:10	technomancy	zakwilson: yep. j.u.Date is nearly always the wrong thing
19:11	technomancy	it should probably even issue a warning when you use it; it's that bad.
19:11	zakwilson	I'm glad to see somebody better known in the community is with me on this.
19:11	technomancy	(System/currentTimeInMillis) can replace some of the more trivial j.u.Date usages
19:12	amalloy	zakwilson: always wrong in clojure, or always wrong on the jvm? like, are you saying java coders shouldn't use it either?
19:12	amalloy	er, technomancy: ^
19:12	hiredman	they should use joda time
19:13	technomancy	amalloy: probably the latter
19:13	zakwilson	I'm just using a unix timestamp with mongodb right now. It looks like congomongo will convert a java.util.Date, but I don't want anything to do with those.
19:14	zakwilson	I store a timestamp and use clj-time within my app. This seems slightly suboptimal, but better than having to think about java.util.Date.
19:55	duck1123	I've found that using Karras with MongoDB, it's easier to keep everything in j.u.Date than anything else
20:08	seancorfield	i just started using joda-time from clojure... nice... i looked at the clj wrapper but it didn't wrap the parts of joda-time i needed :(
20:09	seancorfield	i'm also using date-clj which has a nice API
20:09	seancorfield	but i suspect i could swap all my uses of date-clj to use clj-time instead (or at least a combination of clj-time and raw joda time stuff)
20:11	seancorfield	hmm, clj-time still relies on clojure.contrib.def
20:12	seancorfield	looks like it's just for defvar so it could easily eliminate that...
20:53	technomancy	the main problem with clj-time is its absent maintainership
20:53	amalloy	technomancy: you're not busy, right? ...
20:54	amalloy	(aside: i couldn't bring myself to say with a straight face that i've never used one of your projects so you must have some free time)
20:57	carllerche	How can I pass a compiler arg to javac w/ leiningen? (say -Xlint)
21:00	happy4crazy	Hi everyone, I attempted to ask this question in the Clojure google group, but didn't get much of a response: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/sVCuEL5EDAk
21:00	happy4crazy	Basically, I'm getting a pretty baffling NullPointerException
21:00	happy4crazy	I'm translating some early SICP code to Clojure
21:01	happy4crazy	specifically the iterative sqrt procedure from section 1.1.7
21:01	happy4crazy	everything works correctly in Clojure 1.2.1, but not in 1.3.0
21:07	amalloy	happy4crazy: works for me on 1.3 ubuntu 11.04: https://gist.github.com/deecb8fa399965ee5da7
21:08	gfredericks	amalloy: did you try a float?
21:08	happy4crazy	huh
21:08	gfredericks	nm
21:08	amalloy	gfredericks: yes. i was trying (sqrt (square foo)) but when that worked i tried non-perfect-squares
21:08	gfredericks	clearly that's a dumb suggestion
21:08	gfredericks	no it wasn't
21:08	gfredericks	I misread twice
21:09	gfredericks	I'm going to stop talking now
21:09	dnolen	works for me to, 1.3 on OS X Lion, OpenJDK 7
21:09	amalloy	happy4crazy: and the code looks unimpeachable - i can't imagine how an NPE could sneak in
21:09	amalloy	so it sounds like a problem with your tooling
21:09	happy4crazy	yeah, this is one of the more surprising bugs i've seen
21:10	happy4crazy	fwiw, i'm on os x
21:10	happy4crazy	with java 1.6.0_26
21:10	happy4crazy	and again, 1.2.1 works perfectly; it's only 1.3.0 so far that causes the bug
21:10	amalloy	happy4crazy: i suspect your tools. how are you getting your repl?
21:11	happy4crazy	typically lein repl
21:11	happy4crazy	i've tried lein deping 1.2.1 (works) and 1.3.0 (doesn't)
21:12	amalloy	and lein version prints...?
21:12	happy4crazy	Leiningen 1.6.1.1 on Java 1.6.0_26 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
21:12	amalloy	hm. i'm on 1.6.1, so that shouldn't be the problem
21:13	amalloy	technomancy: you didn't add a :fail-on-large-numbers option to 1.6.1.1, right? :)
21:13	happy4crazy	haha
21:15	happy4crazy	yeah, null pointer exception if I launch clj directly, not via lein repl
21:15	dnolen	happy4crazy: did you remove all the your deps and pull them down again?
21:15	amalloy	happy4crazy: "launch clj directly"?
21:16	dnolen	rm -r lib; lein deps
21:16	happy4crazy	amalloy: i've got 1.3.0 installed via homebrew
21:16	happy4crazy	dnolen: I'll try that
21:16	happy4crazy	amalloy: and additionally via a project.clj
21:16	amalloy	i see. you're just pointing out that it fails with or without lein
21:16	happy4crazy	yes
21:16	amalloy	nod i just didn't quite get it. weird
21:17	happy4crazy	dnolen: yep, same error :/
21:19	happy4crazy	and yeah, if i remove lib and lein dep clojure 1.2.1, everything works
21:19	happy4crazy	so strange!
21:20	amalloy	check for microscopic cpu-goblins
21:20	amalloy	happy4crazy: actually, have you tried on a different computer?
21:20	happy4crazy	amalloy: hmm, no i haven't
21:21	happy4crazy	my guess is it will work correctly, as no one has been able to reproduce it yet :)
21:21	dnolen	happy4crazy: what OS, what JDK?
21:21	dnolen	oh you said JDK above, what OS?
21:21	dnolen	ah you said homebrew
21:21	happy4crazy	yeah
21:21	dnolen	k, your problem makes no sense to me
21:21	happy4crazy	10.6.8
21:21	happy4crazy	ha me neither
21:22	happy4crazy	thank you everyone for humoring me though
21:26	alandipert	happy4crazy: what other libs are in your project.clj?
21:27	alandipert	oh, never mind, i see that it's a problem with the homebrew provided clj
21:30	happy4crazy	alandipert: it's also a problem with whatever lein is installing, correct?
21:30	happy4crazy	I've tried this with both the homebrew clj and a fresh project.clj file
21:32	happy4crazy	thank you everyone, have to run
21:35	jcrossley3	amalloy: hey, so um... continuing our discussion from last night, i have this: https://gist.github.com/1288852
21:36	amalloy	#(( is wrong
21:36	jcrossley3	but note that InvalidDestinationException is a subclass of JMSException
21:37	jcrossley3	unfortunately, the InvalidDestinationException will only be caught if i explicitly add a clause for it
21:37	jcrossley3	is that expected behavior?
21:37	amalloy	not afaik
21:38	jcrossley3	could it be a bug?
21:38	amalloy	i doubt it. it works fine in most cases, so i'd need fairly compelling evidence that anything's actually going wrong here
21:39	jcrossley3	amalloy: why is #(( wrong?
21:39	amalloy	eg, (try (/ 1 0) (catch Exception e 10)) works fine, even though there's no explicit clause for ArithmeticException
21:40	amalloy	&(#((Thread/sleep 1000) 10))
21:40	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
21:40	amalloy	&(#(do (Thread/sleep 1000) 10))
21:40	lazybot	⇒ 10
21:40	jcrossley3	amalloy: ah! (but it works, why?)
21:41	amalloy	bet you a dollar? if it works, it's because you never actually call retry
21:42	jcrossley3	it's just shorthand for (fn [] body) right? i don't need (do body)
21:42	amalloy	no, it is shorthand for (fn [] (body))
21:43	seancorfield	technomancy: really? mark committed stuff on september 26th
21:43	jcrossley3	amalloy: i c. i'm starting to wonder whether that's not the cause of my original problem now. :)
21:44	seancorfield	clj-time 0.3.1 was late september only two weeks ago
22:05	ghiu	is there a version of partial that uses the implicit argument as first and not as last argument?
22:08	amalloy	&'#((Thread/sleep 1000) true) ;; jcrossley3
22:08	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [] ((Thread/sleep 1000) true))
22:09	jcrossley3	amalloy: yes, thanks. i think that fixed my parent exception "bug" too.
22:09	amalloy	cool
22:46	amalloy	TimMc: happened to notice https://github.com/NZKoz/rails_xss just now, which is something you were saying you wish more web frameworks do. i haven't look at the source at all, so don't count this as an endorsement or anything, just a mention
23:06	scottj	dnolen: so (set! (.foo bar) baz) may be common, but is it so much less common than (.no-arg-method foo) that it's nice to not have to use the (. foo (no-arg-method)) syntax?
23:41	amalloy	fwiw, i was unaware until this thread started that (. foo member) called member if it was a no-arg method -- i thought only (.member foo) had that "guessing" property
23:41	ibdknox	haha
23:42	amalloy	thinking critically about it that was a poorly-formed idea because (.member foo) just macroexpands to (. foo member), but it's an interesting idea
23:42	ibdknox	I feel bad that I didn't have time to write a more detailed explanation for why I was against that change :/
23:42	ibdknox	today has been.. busy
23:43	ibdknox	dnolen took care of it for me :)
23:45	TimMc	Oh hey, github changed their theme.
23:45	amalloy	nice. i never thought i would see "u r a fag!!!!!!!!!!" in a paul graham essay. twitter is a wellspring of information (if anyone is curious: How to Disagree http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html)
23:47	TimMc	amalloy: rails_xss looks neat
23:48	napping	rails_xss? That does not sound like a good thing
23:50	ibdknox	I really don't like the new github theme
23:50	ibdknox	it's a design fail :p
23:51	amalloy	(inc ibdknox)
23:51	lazybot	⟹ 3
23:51	amalloy	almost all of their changes are (big) improvements, but this change is a mess
23:52	ibdknox	yeah, I really don't understand this one
23:56	ThreeCups	I'm trying to figure out how to use the repl from leiningen ($ lein repl). How should I load my files? I've been doing
23:56	ThreeCups	user=> (use 'my.ns :reload)
23:56	ThreeCups	to load files. If the my.ns uses or requires other files, are they loaded at that time? It does not seem like they are. Do I need to manually load all the dependencies myself?
23:57	ibdknox	ThreeCups: the other namespaces are loaded in the context of that one, meaning that if that file depends on something it will have access to it
23:57	ibdknox	you could put yourself in that namespace if you wanted
23:57	ibdknox	,(doc in-ns)
23:57	clojurebot	"([name]); Sets ns to the namespace named by the symbol, creating it if needed."
23:58	ibdknox	hm
23:58	carllerche	napping: what's wrong w/ rails_xss?
23:58	ibdknox	that's not very informative
23:59	ThreeCups	ibdknox: thanks. I think that makes sense. So I won't have access to it unless I load it myself or change to it using in-ns. But the code in the files (is files the right word?) I do (use) will have access to what they need.
23:59	ibdknox	ThreeCups: yep. Really namespace is the right word, but most of the time that maps to a file, so.... shrug