#clojure – 2011-10-09

2011-10-09

00:13	khaliG	can't wait for clojurescript support to be added to slime.. this is so cool :)
00:15	dnolen	khaliG: totally.
00:18	Arafangion	Ah, other langauges do have atoms, after a fashion.
00:20	Arafangion	And limited forms of agents.
00:20	Arafangion	Although python itself doesn't really have any form of agent.
00:20	brehaut	a lot (most) of the features of clojure are not new; they are carefully chosen and designed to integrate well together
00:22	Arafangion	It seems that clojure has managed to avoid the typical flaws new langauges have - they typically try to be too simplistic.
00:22	khaliG	haha is that a backhanded compliment?
00:22	ibdknox	Clojure is pretty simple
00:22	dnolen	Arafangion: ibdknox: on the surface. Implementation is very much "Worse Is not Better"
00:23	dnolen	under the hood is some complicated stuff.
00:23	ibdknox	Sure
00:23	ibdknox	under the hood of C# is some crazy stuff too
00:23	Arafangion	C# is not exactly a simplistic language.
00:23	ibdknox	but I would say Clojure is far simpler than C#
00:24	Arafangion	Although the earlier versions of it probably were, for a java-inspired language.
00:24	ibdknox	what is your basis of comparison then?
00:24	dnolen	Simplicity-the design must be simple, both in implementation and interface. It is more important for the interface to be simple than the implementation.
00:24	khaliG	ibdknox, c++ obviously
00:24	ibdknox	lol
00:24	dnolen	http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
00:26	ibdknox	I'm in the interface is what matters camp.
00:26	dnolen	ibdknox: yes, Dick Gabriel does not disagree
00:26	Arafangion	ibdknox: Consider Scheme and Go.
00:26	Arafangion	ibdknox: they are both very simple languages, although Go does try to break new ground in at least one area.
00:27	ibdknox	Arafangion: Go isn't really simpler than python or ruby
00:27	dnolen	Arafangion: Scheme and Go both screw up the simple part.
00:27	Arafangion	Could you elaborate?
00:27	ibdknox	Scheme is also not a particularly practical language
00:27	dnolen	Go channel - puke
00:27	dnolen	Scheme - concrete types which can't be replaced - puke
00:28	Arafangion	Heh, ok. :) I gotta go, friend arrived. :(
00:28	ibdknox	actually no one in here probably disagrees
00:29	ibdknox	Very few languages are internally consistent
00:29	ibdknox	it's hard to suggest simplicity without that though
00:31	ibdknox	dnolen: Is the "worse is better" philosophy widely held?
00:32	dnolen	ibdknox: I would argue yes. But the reason why is complex - it often gets foisted on us - time constraints, programming languages etc
00:36	ibdknox	dnolen: hm, I think my argument is that complexity seeps into any non trivial system, and that the general purpose of building the system to begin with is to provide an interface to something that is otherwise difficult. The greatest value is derived from maintaining a simple abstraction to hide the fact that the implementation is likely painful. There are certainly times where you have to swing one way or the other... bu
00:36	ibdknox	t in general a thing isn't very useful if it's too complicated to use efficiently
00:37	dnolen	ibdknox: we are in agreement. and that's a fundamental Clojure stance.
00:37	dnolen	"reasoning under concurrency is totally lame", let's fix that by any means necessary is Clojure's MO.
00:38	ibdknox	indeed
00:57	todun	hi. I'm new to clojure and on here, it was recommended I use clooj and 4clojure.
00:58	todun	how do I install clooj? there are download instructions but no install instructions at the github repo.
00:58	amalloy	todun: the jar should be executable
00:59	todun	where do I get newbie style tutorials that can ease me into learning clojure?
00:59	todun	amalloy: there is no jar included.
01:00	amalloy	sure there is. look on github, click Downloads in the upper-right
01:00	amalloy	https://github.com/downloads/arthuredelstein/clooj/clooj-0.2.4-standalone.jar looks like the current release
01:01	ibdknox	hm
01:01	ibdknox	what happened to try-clojure?
01:01	khaliG	todun, whats your programming background?
01:02	amalloy	ibdknox: interesting. dunno, i'll try restarting it
01:02	todun	khaliG: I'm new in general, but I've tried a few languages with different paradigms.
01:02	todun	khaliG: familiar with many but very uncomfortable in all languages.
01:06	amalloy	ibdknox: resurrection succeeded
01:06	ibdknox	yay!
01:06	ibdknox	todun: http://try-clojure.org/
01:07	todun	ibdknox: thanks will do.
01:07	todun	ibdknox: the more tutorials the merrier :)
01:19	Arafangion	ibdknox: Fair enough - I find that professionally, "worse is clearly better".
01:19	Arafangion	ibdknox: As long as any issues are managed - it's usually much better to get a product out the door than to spend a year longer on it.
01:22	Arafangion	(And wow, that ds.js is insane)
01:22	ibdknox	I have a simple cljs implementation of D3 in Pinot :)
01:22	Arafangion	ibdknox: I can't bear to think about a pinot implementation. :)
01:23	ibdknox	huh?
01:24	Arafangion	I seemed to think if pinot as an esoteric 'visual' language based on abstract art?
01:25	ibdknox	http://github.com/ibdknox/pinot
01:26	Arafangion	Intruging.
01:33	kab3wm	ibdknox: I just started using Noir to build a content management system. Really loving Noir. I'm still new to Clojure ( even Lisp ), but building a web app is helping me figure things out.
01:33	ibdknox	kab3wm: awesome :)
01:36	ibdknox	kab3wm: have you run into anything you wish was better explained/is confusing?
01:37	kab3wm	ibdknox: well, everything is confusing at the moment.. but I'm getting the hang of it. My issues are more with poorly documented libs. Like congomongo. But I've got basic CRUD stuff working with Noir and a MongoDB at the moment.. so hopefully it's mostly down hill from here.
01:38	zakwilson	Congomongo has great documentation as long as you're willing to read the source.
01:38	amalloy	Arafangion: you're thinking of Piet
01:38	Arafangion	kab3wm: "downhill" is usually a bad thing. ;)
01:38	Arafangion	amalloy: Indeed, I was.
01:38	kab3wm	zakwilson: yes, that's been working.
01:39	zakwilson	But yeah, docs would be nice some day.
04:36	sritchie	has anyone used the google maps api with clojurescript?
05:12	_khaliG	wanting to use #(..) syntax but wanting to ignore the parameter/s. is there a way?
05:20	amalloy	yes, but don't do it
05:21	_khaliG	amalloy, for swing callbacks - dont often use the event e, for instance
05:21	amalloy	_khaliG: so just write (fn [_] (...))
05:21	_khaliG	amalloy, lol i have but its ugly
05:23	amalloy	shrug turn your head and squint if it helps you. it's not ugly,and it's better than #(do %& (...))
07:52	tdrgabi	regarding the utf8 issue earlier, it appears to be an emacs thing. it was set to a different locale somehow. I run M-x dos-to-utf8 on the whole file and now my characters are nice
07:54	Arafangion	What was the utf8 issue?
08:22	daniel___	can anyone suggest an equivalent to ord() in python? a function that returns the unicode code point of a char?
08:26	daniel___	think i found it (codepoints s)
08:26	jaley	hey guys - has anyone here had much luck with clojure and android? i'm getting a weird NPE from core.clj (Properties.load() call defining clojure-version) before my code is executed afaik. google searching revealed nothing :/
08:35	Arafangion	jaley: Hmm, I don't know if clojure works on android. You do know that android does NOT run java?
08:36	Arafangion	jaley: It's using the Dalvik VM.
08:36	daniel___	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: codepoints in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:7) can anyone help me out?
08:37	daniel___	i thought i required clojure.contrib.string
08:37	Arafangion	daniel___: I think java strings are essentially UTF-16 arrays?
08:38	daniel___	ok Arafangion, just gunna try something
08:38	daniel___	what does that mean in terms of what i want to do?
08:39	jaley	Arafangion: yeah - there are a few success stories around. there's even a clojure REPL app on the android market actually :D
08:39	daniel___	im trying (- "a" "b")
08:39	Arafangion	jaley: Neat. :)
08:39	jaley	Arafangion: plus some helloworld examples on various blogs
08:39	Arafangion	jaley: That's awesome. :)
08:40	jaley	Arafangion: Android actually uses java developer tools, then google provide a tool to translate the bytecode to their dalvik format, so many jvm languages actually "sort of" work. in a broken and annoying kind of way... :/
08:40	Arafangion	This means that it's trivial to use clojure as a single, cross platform language. :)
08:40	Arafangion	jaley: Yes, specifically, dynamic bytecode generation gets broken. :(
08:41	Arafangion	Which breaks Jython, for instance.
08:44	jaley	Arafangion: yeah... it's far from perfect, but apparently basic things should work
08:44	daniel___	i have a repl open... (ns whatever (:require clojure.contrib.string))
08:45	_khaliG	i'm looking forward to writing my android app with clojurescript
08:45	daniel___	(codepoints "a") gives me the error
09:01	bsod1	paredit's C-) is great but I want to disable auto-close parens, how can I do that?
09:03	daniel___	i just needed (clojure.contrib.string/codepoints "a")
09:03	daniel___	thanks for your help guys!
09:06	gfredericks	daniel___: oh hah. I should have noticed that.
09:07	daniel___	nps :)
09:07	daniel___	now i need a function that splits a string into a list of individual characters
09:08	st3fan	split?
09:08	daniel___	yeah st3fan, i think so
09:08	daniel___	what regex will give me each char?
09:08	st3fan	,(seq "foo")
09:08	clojurebot	(\f \o \o)
09:08	st3fan	there you go
09:09	daniel___	what library is that in?
09:09	daniel___	and what are the \?
09:09	st3fan	core
09:09	st3fan	\f is the single character f
09:09	daniel___	ok, let me experiment
09:09	daniel___	thanks a lot
09:09	st3fan	like 'f' on other languages
09:12	st3fan	,(str (join (seq "I love cheese"))(
09:12	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
09:12	st3fan	,(str (join (seq "I love cheese")))
09:12	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: join in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
09:13	st3fan	,(str (reverse (seq "I love cheese")))
09:13	clojurebot	"(\\e \\s \\e \\e \\h ...)"
09:13	st3fan	hm
09:13	st3fan	,(str (str-join (seq "I love cheese")))
09:13	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: str-join in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
09:14	gfredericks	,(apply str (reverse "I love cheese"))
09:14	clojurebot	"eseehc evol I"
09:16	Bronsa	,(reverse "string")
09:16	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: replace already refers to: #'clojure.string/replace in namespace: sandbox>
09:16	Bronsa	i think i broke clojurebot :E
09:16	gfredericks	&(reverse "string")
09:16	lazybot	⇒ (\g \n \i \r \t \s)
09:17	gfredericks	is lazybot to the rescue???
09:17	lazybot	gfredericks: Oh, absolutely.
09:17	Bronsa	i ,(use 'clojure.string)
09:17	Bronsa	and reverse && replace got broken
09:17	gfredericks	Bronsa: somebody will reboot it eventually
09:17	Bronsa	i'm sorry ( ,_,)
09:17	Bronsa	didn't mean to broke it
09:17	Bronsa	*break
09:17	gfredericks	no problem. lazybot still works.
09:20	st3fan	&(str (map #(str %) (seq "Hello")))
09:20	lazybot	⇒ "clojure.lang.LazySeq@5db0151"
09:20	st3fan	how does str return a lazy seq?
09:26	Bronsa	st3fan: you're trying to str a sequence
09:26	Bronsa	you should apply str to a sequence
09:31	gfredericks	st3fan: you also might like pr-str
09:32	gfredericks	&(pr-str (map str (seq "Hello")))
09:32	lazybot	⇒ "(\"H\" \"e\" \"l\" \"l\" \"o\")"
09:43	mindbender1
09:43	gfredericks	mindbender1:
09:44	mindbender1	gfredericks: hi
09:46	gfredericks	:)
09:47	mindbender1	I'm in the process of learning clojure and have read programming clojure and the joy of clojure and my head is spinning...:)
09:49	gfredericks	mindbender1: what sorts of languages are you coming from?
09:50	mindbender1	not a particularly good programmer prior to clojure but I am familiar with java.. so I wanted a language I could grow with
09:51	mindbender1	I intend to work in the erp field with the clojure language
09:52	gfredericks	that sounds fun
09:52	mindbender1	any pointers or red signs?
09:53	Arafangion	With the ERP field, or clojure?
09:54	mindbender1	with clojure in the erp field, especially as I intend extend already popular erp packages with clojure?
09:55	mindbender1	or rather customize them
09:55	cark	in the same vm as your erp packages ?
09:56	mindbender1	yes in the same vm
09:56	cark	so you run the package, and it calls into clojure ?
09:57	cark	i mean, do you intend to have clojure around it, or the other way around ?
09:57	mindbender1	yes or I was thinking clojure.jar would be somewhere on the lib path of the app
09:57	cark	as far as i know you might be loosing the benefit of a repl
09:57	mindbender1	then customizationss will be in a different jar. no touching of classes in the app
09:58	cark	losing*
09:58	mindbender1	actually the app I had in mind is adempiere
09:59	cark	i find it's easier to call java (or even patch stuff) from clojure than the other way around
09:59	mindbender1	yes i intend to call java from clojure
09:59	mindbender1	that is call the classes in the app from my clojure dev environment
10:00	Arafangion	You can't easily call into clojure from java?
10:00	cark	i fyou can use your erp packages as libraries to your clojure app, then you're golden
10:00	cark	Arafangion: yes you can
10:00	cark	Arafangion: only it's annoying when you're used to the ease of developement starting from clojure
10:00	mindbender1	ok you suggest using the erp packages as lib in my app?
10:01	cark	i don't know if it is possible in your case, but if it was me, i would try very hard before going the other way around
10:02	cark	one of the strong points of clojure is interactive developement
10:02	mindbender1	already the app itself allows customizations to be put in a customizations.jar so I was hoping I could write that customization.jar in clojure
10:03	cark	by calling into clojure, you'd need to use the old code->compile->run cycle at least until you have your interface ironed out
10:03	cark	which is very possible, but annoying
10:05	Arafangion	cark: Well, if it were me, I'd define the interface in Java... And implement it in Clojure.
10:05	Arafangion	Which reminds me.
10:05	cark	Arafangion: yes, true
10:06	Arafangion	Does Clojure have a dependency injection framework? (Spring seems to be common...)
10:06	cark	clojure is a functional language
10:06	cark	it does not need a dependency injection framework
10:06	mindbender1	joy of clojure talks about clojure not needing DI
10:07	cark	,(sort-by identity > [4 3 8 1 2])
10:08	clojurebot	(8 4 3 2 1)
10:08	Arafangion	I'm not so sure about that.
10:08	cark	se how i injected the > function in the sort-by function
10:08	cark	see*
10:08	Arafangion	cark: Yes, so the language itself provides it there. For this langauge, at least. That's awesome.
10:09	Arafangion	cark: Arguably, in the case of python, it does so likewise if you think of the language providing a service locator.
10:09	Twey	DI frameworks are just a workaround for Java treating functions as second-class citizens…
10:09	Arafangion	Twey: That's unrelated.
10:09	Twey	Oh?
10:09	cark	i think it's related
10:09	Arafangion	DI frameworks are a workaround for the proliferation of dependencies caused by writing generic code in OO environments.
10:09	cark	tho i'm no DI guru
10:10	Arafangion	They allow you to replace any dependency with another dependency.
10:10	Arafangion	For example.
10:10	Twey	But you can do that with first-class functions.
10:11	Arafangion	Implementing a function that operates on a stream is better than implementing a function that operates on a file name.
10:11	Arafangion	Because the latter function does not allow you to replace how the file is opened or iterated over.
10:11	Twey	Right
10:11	mindbender1	Arafangion: ? please expantiate
10:11	cark	look at my example again, sort-by is the generic version of sort
10:11	Arafangion	That is dependency injection on a trivial level.
10:11	Twey	I am aware of the concept of DI
10:12	Twey	And I assert that first-class functions provide all the necessary features to do that, without a third-party framework
10:12	Arafangion	Now, here's where DI gets annoying.
10:12	mindbender1	Arafangion: references please
10:12	Twey	Okay
10:12	Arafangion	WHen you have, eg, a function that does, well, suppose it's a web spider.
10:13	Arafangion	One of the functions it uses is get-http-protocol-handler
10:13	Arafangion	In a typical, non-oo language, you would have something like: perform_spider(list_of_root_references0
10:14	Arafangion	But... If you're using DI as a design technique, you would have:
10:14	Arafangion	perform_spider(list_of_root_references, http_protocol_handler, generic_sort, ...)
10:14	cark	well in clojure you would have something like this :
10:15	Arafangion	In OO langauges, you typically end up having a heirachy of dependencies.
10:15	mindbender1	and with java 6 CDI was built in
10:15	cark	(defn perform-spider [& {keys [protocol-handler sort-fn ... ]}] ....)
10:15	Arafangion	cark: Aha, and now we get to the meat of it.
10:15	cark	then you can make your factory function, which woudl be the configuration for your application
10:16	Arafangion	cark: You can do the same in say, Java, as well, but one neat thing a "dependency injection framework", is that it will do that wiring up for you.
10:16	cark	it won't
10:16	Arafangion	cark: It will.
10:17	cark	you still need to write the xml configuration
10:17	Arafangion	cark: Ah, that reminds me why I didn't like Spring. :(
10:17	cark	i'd rather write clojure than xml =P
10:17	Arafangion	cark: Apparently, however, you don't have to. I actually come to DI from C#.
10:17	mindbender1	what I read of DI was a matter of handling things like initialization and transaction management services
10:18	Arafangion	cark: And I don't write any XML for my dependency injection, at all.
10:18	Twey	It needs to know which dependencies to use, somehow
10:18	Arafangion	In C#, I use reflection for that.
10:18	cark	Arafangion: at some point you still need to tell your framework which interface you want to use
10:18	Twey	The Spring gets the information from the XML configuration
10:18	Twey	The Clojure takes that map argument
10:18	cark	i mean which implementation
10:18	Arafangion	cark: I use conventions.
10:18	Twey	I'm guessing the C# uses annotations or something
10:19	Arafangion	cark: Eg, if I ask for IFoo, then unless I specify otherwise, I tend to mean "Use Foo".
10:19	cark	well then you have a single implementation and you don't need DI
10:19	Arafangion	In my unit tests, if I ask for IFoo, then unless I specify otherwise, I tend to mean "Use a mock<IFoo>".
10:19	Twey	… yeah
10:19	Arafangion	cark: If I didn't haev unit tests, perhaps.
10:20	Arafangion	cark: But in any case, I do have project-specific conventions and only a small number of exceptions.
10:20	Arafangion	(exceptions... excemptions... I think I mean the latter)
10:20	cark	as i said, i'm no DI guru, but i really don't see how you can use a generic functionality without specifying the implementation you will be using
10:21	cark	maybe i've been away from c# and java for too long =)
10:22	cark	my take on it is this : in java/c# you're mostly working with objects, they need to be configured at creation time
10:23	Arafangion	cark: The implementation in my primary project is specified as: "Use the implementation of the same name minus the leading 'I'".
10:23	cark	in clojure you're mostly working with function
10:23	Arafangion	cark: As I said, I use reflection.
10:23	cark	so you configure the function at call time
10:23	cark	Arafangion: ah i get it now
10:24	Arafangion	cark: However, in my unit tests, I do not want to be testing teh dependencies, I want to test the "unit" in isolation.]
10:24	Arafangion	cark: And that, is actually teh main reason I use DI.
10:24	ghiu	hi, can anyone explain to me why (map #(+%1 1) '(1 2 3 4)) works while (map #((let [one 1] (+%1 one ))) '(1 2 3 4)) gives an error?
10:24	Arafangion	cark: So as a result, for the unit test project, I say: "The implementation I want is a dynamically generated mock of type IFoo".
10:24	cark	,(map #(let [one 1] (+%1 one )) '(1 2
10:24	cark	3 4))
10:24	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:24	cark	,(map #(let [one 1] (+%1 one )) '(1 2 3 4))
10:24	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5)
10:24	Arafangion	cark: So I make a real instance of the unit I want to test... With all of it's dependencies automatically mocked out.
10:25	cark	Arafangion: i see, and that's nice
10:25	Arafangion	cark: Extreme DI is pointless in a functional language, I'll agree with that... However...
10:25	ghiu	, (map #((let [one 1] (+%1 one ))) '(1 2 3 4))
10:25	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
10:25	Bronsa	ghiu you have an extra pair of parenthesis
10:25	Arafangion	cark: Surely you will have some kind of 'module' that you can define as a "unit", and surely you'll want to test each unit individually?
10:26	ghiu	Bronsa: oh, the one before let?
10:26	Bronsa	yes
10:26	Bronsa	also the one matching that
10:26	ghiu	because it is already the body of the function
10:26	ghiu	i see
10:26	cark	Arafangion: i must confess i mostly don't do unit testing, i'm all good with behaviour testing
10:26	ghiu	thanks
10:26	Bronsa	np
10:27	Arafangion	cark: By behaviour testing, do you mean system testing?
10:27	cark	Arafangion: higher level testing i guess
10:27	Arafangion	cark: Yeah... Those are important too, but they have this one massive flaw.
10:27	cark	i do small time testing at the repl =)
10:27	Arafangion	cark: They tend to be slow... And if a test fails, you don't actually know what went wrong. You know only that a test failed.
10:28	Arafangion	cark: And I've seen such testing take hours.
10:28	cark	Arafangion: i know i can get away with it because i'm not working in a team
10:28	Arafangion	small-time testing has another massive flaw in that they're not repeatable, and therefore, not useful as a tool when you're doing refactoring.
10:29	Arafangion	cark: I don't think a team has anything to do with it... But it would depend on your requirements.
10:29	cark	i think unit testing is usefull, and i use it a lot then, when you're working on data structures or algorithms
10:29	Arafangion	I wouldn't bother to do more than manual testing for simple scripts and quick projects, for example.
10:30	Arafangion	cark: Case in point: I was able to see exactly what was broken when I completely changed my VM.
10:30	Arafangion	cark: From Python(C) to IronPython. (.NET)
10:30	cark	Arafangion: wew that must have been painfull
10:31	Arafangion	cark: It was surprisingly pleasant, but mostly because I stopped short of completing the port. ;)
10:31	cark	hehe ok
10:31	Arafangion	cark: The main thing that stopped me was no expat support. :(
10:32	Arafangion	And #python is currently hostile with using expat.
10:32	cark	anyways, to come back to DI, i find that i don't need so much of that in real life projects
10:32	cark	and genericity is usually pretty localized
10:32	Arafangion	I mostly use it in "real life projects".
10:33	Arafangion	Then again, most of my projects tend to have a LOT of business logic.;
10:33	cark	well mine too
10:33	Arafangion	And they change a lot. :(
10:33	cark	but it's still localized
10:34	Arafangion	And to be honest...
10:34	Arafangion	I don't think I get any productivity improvement for using a DI framework.
10:34	Arafangion	I still use DI, but I don't think using a "DI Framework" gives actual productivity improvement.
10:34	cark	clojure should provide you with this improvement i think =)
10:34	Arafangion	It saves perhaps 2 minutes of refactoring each time I change a dependency, and that'd be updating my unit tests.
10:35	Arafangion	cark: Alas, I won't likely be ablet o use Clojure at work.
10:35	Arafangion	I'd like to, it would solve a number of painful issues I have.
10:36	Arafangion	For instance, between the various JS VM's, .NET, Mono, and Java, I'd be able to have common code everywhere.
10:36	Arafangion	And by extension, they'd share a lot of tests and business logic.
10:37	cark	how come you have to work on all these VMs ?
10:37	Arafangion	I don't, but on windows, I use .NET
10:37	Arafangion	And on the mac, I don't.
10:38	cark	i see
10:38	Arafangion	I use ObjC on the mac.
10:42	Arafangion	I'm off to bed!
10:43	cark	good night !
10:47	eliOcs	hello everyone!
10:57	kephale	in lein does trampoline use jvm-opts? i'm getting a suspicious outofmemoryerror with a huge max on my heap space when using lein trampoline run
11:04	eanxgeek	new to clojure and trying to compile what I suspect is a simple selenium program, http://pastebin.com/cuxdUWPa, getting error Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: (new DefaultSelenium (:host (quote localhost)) (:port (quote 4444)) (:command (quote *firefox)) (:url (quote http://wwww.google.com)))
11:04	eanxgeek	any thoughts on what I have done wrong?
11:07	cark	(DefaultSelenium. "localhost" 4444 "Firefox" "www.google.com")
11:07	cark	or something like i
11:07	cark	tit
11:07	cark	it
11:07	cark	!
11:08	cark	what's with all the quoting you're doing
11:08	cark	and (:keyword blah) doesn't mean what you think it means
11:10	eanxgeek	cark: I was wondering if I was messing something up there with the :keyword blah
11:11	cark	keywords are function that look themselves in the map argument
11:11	cark	so
11:11	eanxgeek	cark: when I simplify further, like your above example, I get DefaultSelenium. should be a vector
11:12	cark	,(:blah {:a 1 :blah 2})
11:12	clojurebot	2
11:12	cark	paste again =)
11:13	eanxgeek	http://pastebin.com/zi4Pzyhk
11:14	Bronsa	eanxgeek the code should look like (defn fn-name [args] (let [var (Class. args)] (.doStuff var)))
11:14	eanxgeek	I may have over simplified your intention
11:14	cark	eanxgeek: just like bronsa said
11:16	eanxgeek	cark: Bronsa: I think i have that http://pastebin.com/RvBXfYai
11:16	eanxgeek	now getting java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration let should be a vector (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
11:18	cark	http://pastebin.com/kjcM0Cra
11:18	mindbender1	please how can I include username and paswword in a URI so that I can access it later with..
11:19	mindbender1	(let [url (URI. (System/getenv "DATABASE_URL"))
11:19	mindbender1	(if-let [user-info (.getUserInfo url)]
11:19	mindbender1	{:user (first (str/split user-info #":"))
11:21	eanxgeek	cark: Bronsa: just as a fyi, I'm actually trying to simplify a snippet of code that someone else had written where they use (let [client (new DefaultSelenium (:host opts) (:port opts)...
11:22	cark	eanxgeek: he's looking up the parameters in the opt map
11:22	eanxgeek	cark: right I figured that out hence why my :host 'localhost doesn't work
11:23	eanxgeek	so I have now removed that stuff, trying (let [client (new DefaultSelenium ('localhost) ... but that doesn't work
11:23	eanxgeek	still getting show be a vector
11:23	cark	did you look at my paste ?
11:24	cark	('localhost) just doesn't make sense
11:25	eanxgeek	well not sure if this code will work but it compiled
11:25	eanxgeek	http://pastebin.com/tbrK1Yhr
11:25	eanxgeek	next step is to test in a repl
11:25	cark	man
11:25	cark	it won't work at all
11:25	eanxgeek	heh
11:26	eanxgeek	i'm such a noob
11:26	eanxgeek	can't i go back to python
11:26	cark	parenthesis are for function application
11:26	cark	(localhost) is like localhost() in javascript
11:26	eanxgeek	ah ok
11:27	eanxgeek	now that makes sense
11:27	cark	quoting is something entirely different
11:27	cark	'blah
11:27	cark	that means, the symbol blah
11:27	daniel___	anyone using vimclojure with nailgun? do you just put vimclojure/server in your project.clj? what else did you do to get ng working?
11:27	cark	(blah arg1 arg2) means the function blah called with args arg1 and arg2
11:28	duck1123	eanxgeek: also, have you looked at clj-webdriver? Might be a bit easier to do whatever you're doing
11:29	eanxgeek	duck1123: I have not, as far as I can tell the group I'll be working with is using clojure and selenium-java-x.jar
11:29	cark	you might want starting with basic understanding of clojure
11:30	eanxgeek	yeah I can already tell some of my reading didn't stick :-(
11:30	duck1123	Fair enough, just thought I'd let you know it's out there
11:30	eanxgeek	damn battery... looks like I'm outta here one way or the other
11:30	eanxgeek	thanks for the pointers I'll keep banging away at this.
11:32	cark	there's an awefull lot of banging to do =)
11:34	duck1123	are there any libraries or what-not that will allow me to trace when my namespaces are used/required/loaded? I have an issue where one of my nses is using a ns I never declared.
11:36	duck1123	Well, I just found the problem, but my question still stands
11:36	raek	duck1123: if you're using gen-class there might be old versions of your namespaces in compiled form in the classes/ directory
11:37	duck1123	raek: No, my issue is this is one of the few places where I've used load-file. I use this namespace in that loaded file. That was causing my problem
11:38	duck1123	I need to find a better way to load this code, but I still face times where I'd like to trace the namespace load order
11:52	duck1123	is there any way to use xml zip filters to find an element based on the actual element (as opposed to how it looks in the source)
11:53	duck1123	it looks like the zip filters give me the prefix and the name for the tag, not taking xml namespaces into account
11:56	daniel___	vimclojure/server seems to have broken dependencies...anyone using vimclojure can tell me how they set up their ng server?
12:12	ghiu	hi, i'm trying to pack a .jar file with some functions i've made. when importing it i get a Could not locate deviant_scraper/core__init.class or deviant_scraper/core.clj on classpath
12:12	ghiu	any help?
12:16	duck1123	ghiu: are you trying to do this manually, or are you using a build tool of some sort?
12:33	daniel___	,(seq "dsfsdfsdfsd")
12:33	clojurebot	(\d \s \f \s \d ...)
12:37	daniel___	if i have two lists like (\d \f \s \h \q), how can i iterate through both lists doing operations involving each pair?
12:38	daniel___	by pair, im thinking if it were an array, the values with the same index
12:39	daniel___	in fact, it could be (1 2 3) and (4 5 6) and I want to do something like 4-1 + 5-2 + 6-3
12:39	duck1123	,(map (fn [x y] {x y}) [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
12:39	clojurebot	({1 4} {2 5} {3 6})
12:40	duck1123	,(apply + (map (fn [x y] (- y x)) [1 2 3] [4 5 6]))
12:40	clojurebot	9
12:42	daniel___	thanks duck1123, let me take some time to get my head around what you just did
12:42	duck1123	If you call map with multiple collections, it'll call that function with one from each collection
12:43	daniel___	i see, thats neat
12:43	daniel___	and apply + is basically a summation
12:44	duck1123	(apply + '(3 3 3)) is the same as (+ 3 3 3)
12:44	daniel___	yep, got it
12:45	daniel___	cheers
12:46	duck1123	you could also use reduce instead of apply. which would be like (+ (+ 3 3) 3) I can never remember which is better in +'s case
12:52	daniel___	,(seq "dsfsdf")
12:52	clojurebot	(\d \s \f \s \d ...)
12:52	daniel___	this creates a collection of characters
12:53	daniel___	im having trouble because i need them to be strings of length 1
12:53	raek	the vararg version of + is implemented with reduce
12:53	duck1123	,(map str "dsfsdf")
12:53	clojurebot	("d" "s" "f" "s" "d" ...)
12:53	raek	daniel___: (map str "dsfdsf")
12:54	daniel___	ahh ta
12:54	duck1123	raek: so does that mean that given the choice, I should reduce there?
12:55	raek	for str and concat it's better to use apply than reduce
12:55	raek	it depends on the function, I guess...
12:56	raek	(reduce str will create a lot of intermediate immutable strings but apply str will use a string builder)
12:58	duck1123	Does anyone have any suggestions for processing xml in a ns-aware fashion?
12:59	duck1123	I'm checking out pjt's saxon wrapper, but it returns a single item if the query has only one result
13:06	devn	duck1123: there's another parser thingamajig somewhere
13:07	devn	i think I saw it in reference to a SOAP-specific library
13:07	devn	sorry i dont have a name for you, but that's something to google around for
13:07	daniel___	can someone using a vim repl share how they set it up? im using vimclojure but cant get nailgun to work
13:08	ghiu	is ring robust enough to be used as production server or it is dev-only and requires a deployment under tomcat?
13:10	cark	ring is not an http server ... i'm guessing you're talking about jetty ?
13:11	duck1123	ghiu: There are several sites that I can think of that are using ring in relatively heavy production
13:11	cark	i do use ring in production too
13:11	duck1123	and I believe more people use jetty than tomcat
13:11	cark	with jetty
13:11	ghiu	do you need any reverse proxy in front of it?
13:11	ghiu	like
13:11	duck1123	ring is more or less container agnostic
13:11	cark	abd it's good enough for hundreds of pages per second
13:11	dbushenko	cark: where do you use ring in production?
13:11	ghiu	you use it under nginx or something?
13:12	cark	jetty + ring, directly
13:12	cark	using it for a telecomunication application, providing information to customers of small telcos
13:12	duck1123	I use nginx in front of aleph. I had some odd issues with caching with apache
13:13	dbushenko	cark: can you share a link? I'm collecting success stories
13:13	cark	nope it's all behind login/password
13:13	cark	the application is sold by the company i made it for
13:14	dbushenko	sad...
13:14	cark	sorry =(
13:15	dbushenko	this is your startup?
13:15	wink	cark: how did you daemonize it?
13:15	cark	nope i'm a freelance programmer
13:15	cark	it's not running as a daemon
13:15	ghiu	the main main of ring repository (https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring) only shows how to use it for a dev server
13:15	cark	running under solaris
13:16	ghiu	how to use it in production?
13:16	cark	i provide a jar file, and directory structure, i develop under windows, they make it run
13:16	cark	i really don't know much about the unix side
13:17	cark	they have a startup scirpt, it's only running the executable jar
13:17	cark	we had only one solid down time at a customer's site
13:17	cark	because there was a limit to the number of thread jetty was creating
13:18	cark	but after a few hours researching the cause, it was easily fixed
13:18	cark	really no trouble at all besides this one time
13:23	amalloy	ghiu: www.4clojure.com uses ring/jetty/nginx. not a huge load, of course, but it's "production"
13:23	cark	nginx is for the static stuff ?
13:23	cark	or is everything behind a proxy ?
13:30	thoefer	try to start a clojurescript app, but I get a javascript error "No protocol method EventType.event-types defined for type null: null" - anyone encountered a similiar error? That´s the small script: https://gist.github.com/1273934
13:30	thoefer	all samples work for me...
13:31	justicefries	so am I to understand correctly that templating with most clojure frameworks are done in clojure?
13:31	justicefries	instead of writing any html/haml/whatever
13:33	duck1123	Some people use templates, but a lot of people just use hiccup to generate html
13:35	dbushenko	justicefries, no, that's not so simple
13:35	dbushenko	moment, let me show you a prooflink
13:36	dbushenko	read this one
13:36	dbushenko	http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/al98b/clojure_and_compojure_to_the_rescue_again/
13:36	dbushenko	breafly: you get an html-page without templating tags, then transform it to hiccup-formatted clojure code using clj-tagsoup and then generate html using hiccup
13:38	wink	amalloy: is there any detailed description/howto for that setup? I haven't really found anything decent to copy yet :P
13:38	amalloy	haha don't copy us. ours is terrible
13:38	wink	I'm doing lein run in a screen. can it be worse? :)
13:39	amalloy	cark: that's what you get for not highlighting me :P. everything is behind a proxy for port-forwarding - that server hosts a half-dozen websites
13:39	cark	hehe ok
13:39	cark	my bad !
13:41	amalloy	wink: about equally bad, i guess. our deploy process is lein deps && kill oldproc && nohup java -cp (...) clojure.main -e (...)
13:42	ghiu	i have exported (leiningen localrepo) a java .jar to my local repository. i've added it to the solution and with leiningen i have it now in my lib/ when i try to include id, i have a java.lang.ClassNotFoundException exception. any idea?
13:44	gfredericks	amalloy: isn't it weird how programmers have been deploying things for decades now and we still think it's hard to do anything that survives a reboot?
13:46	gfredericks	That might just be my least favorite part about linux.
13:53	thoefer	my bad, clojurescript works :)
13:54	ghiu	hmmm, can i import an entire namespace from java or just objects?
13:55	ghiu	i mean classes?
13:56	daniel__2	,(map str "dsad")
13:56	clojurebot	("d" "s" "a" "d")
13:56	gfredericks	ghiu: just classes. You can use gen-class to create a class in your ns that calls functions in the ns.
13:56	gfredericks	depending on what you're doing that may or may not be the simplest approach.
13:59	ghiu	ok, but does it resolves all the dependancies? i mean, if i include class A that has some methods that return class B or require as argument class C, can i use them?
13:59	daniel__2	(apply + (map contstr/codepoints (map str "dasdsa")))
14:00	daniel__2	i get a cant cast lazyseq into number with this
14:00	sid3k	hi all. I solved first 40 problems at 4clojure and now need a free online guide to continue. None of the clojure books has a kindle version. is there any guide considered as the best one by the community?
14:00	bsod1	is there a lazy sort function in clojure?
14:02	gfredericks	daniel__2: that makes sense. What are you trying to do? Add the codepoints in the original string?
14:02	gfredericks	ghiu: it will take care of all the dependencies that you declare in your (ns) declarations...not quite sure what else you might mean.
14:02	amalloy	bsod1: none built in. you can write one pretty quickly though, and JoC does just that
14:02	daniel__2	gfredericks: sum all the integers
14:03	daniel__2	i think i need ([1] [2] [3]) instead of ((1) (2) (3))
14:03	gfredericks	daniel__2: why not (contstr/codepoints "dasdsa") instead of the maps?
14:03	bsod1	amalloy: who is JoC?
14:03	amalloy	joy of clojure
14:03	bsod1	ah, ok, thanks
14:04	daniel__2	gfredericks: not sure what that gives me but let me try
14:04	daniel__2	you're right, thats what i want
14:04	daniel__2	cheers
14:04	gfredericks	:)
14:04	daniel__2	i thought it not be split at the end of it
14:04	amalloy	but a general-purpose lazy sort isn't as useful as something more specific for your problem. like, if you know in advance you need the two largest elements you can do better than lazy-sorting the whole thing
14:04	daniel__2	it might not be*
14:06	daniel__2	but so i learn something, in the case i had a lazyseq and wanted to convert them to numbers?
14:07	gfredericks	daniel__2: if you want to sum up a lazy seq you can use (apply + ...) just like in your example
14:07	gfredericks	&(apply + (range 2 10))
14:07	lazybot	⇒ 44
14:08	gfredericks	daniel__2: if you mean the case where you have a sequence of sequences like [(3) (4) (8)], you would want to call (map first ...) on it first, to pull them out
14:08	daniel__2	,(apply + ((1) (2) (3)))
14:08	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
14:09	gfredericks	,(apply + (map first [[1] [2] [3]]))
14:09	clojurebot	6
14:09	daniel__2	ok, thanks
14:09	gfredericks	,(map first [[1] [2] [3]])
14:09	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
14:09	gfredericks	yep
14:09	gfredericks	daniel__2: note that if you want to make a list literal (with parentheses), you have to quote it so clojure won't try to evaluate it: ##(map first '((1) (2) (3)))
14:09	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
14:11	daniel__2	yup, i knew that
14:19	amalloy	note also that if you want to make a list literal you're usually wrong :P. not always, of course, but it's a good rule to start with
14:19	bsod1	I'm sorting a seq with 1000 elements for some tests and learning, after second time I sort the same seq, sorting time decreased to 1/4 of first time, is it because of JVM's optimizations?
14:20	amalloy	sorting a sorted sequence is pretty fast
14:20	amalloy	run down the line, find out it's already sorted, do no swaps
14:20	bsod1	amalloy: no it's not sorted, I'm not changing the seq, I'm sorting same unsorted seq every time
14:21	bsod1	amalloy: my sort function is side-effect free, there no changing
14:21	bsod1	there is no changing*
14:21	bsod1	amalloy: here's my sort function http://paste.pocoo.org/show/489995/
14:22	daniel__2	can anyone suggest how to change a random character in a string?
14:23	amalloy	oh, you wrote the lazysort. i thought you were using java's sort. still, i can draw no benchmarking conclusions from the sort code without knowing how you are benchmarking
14:23	amalloy	daniel__2: ##(str \F)
14:23	lazybot	⇒ "F"
14:23	bsod1	amalloy: (time (qsort (take 1000 (repeatedly #(rand-int 1000))) <))
14:23	amalloy	so it's not the same seq at all
14:24	daniel__2	say i have ("f" "d" "h" "w"), how would i choose a character at random?
14:24	bsod1	amalloy: actually I'm saving this seq to a var but I changed it to paste it here
14:24	daniel__2	and modify it
14:24	gfredericks	daniel__2: rand-nth?
14:24	bsod1	(def t (take 100...))
14:24	gfredericks	daniel__2: never mind
14:24	bsod1	(time (qsort t <))
14:24	gfredericks	daniel__2: for random updates you'll want a vector instead of a list
14:25	amalloy	bsod1: well, (a) the first sort is also creating the sequence, and (b) since your sort is lazy, that (time (qsort)) will do basically zero work
14:25	daniel__2	hmm ok, lets say i have a function (defn mutatestring [string] ...)
14:25	daniel__2	i want to return the string with one char modified
14:26	daniel__2	so ill have a string which i want to convert to a vector of chars?
14:26	bsod1	amalloy: I'm sorting on REPL so qsort is printing the result, so it's sorting all the seq
14:26	amalloy	bsod1: but time is returning before the printing happens, so that's immaterial
14:27	bsod1	amalloy: ok, I'll add (print) over qsort and try again
14:29	gfredericks	daniel__2: I guess if it's a string in and out then the vector would be too much. I'd just take a substring from both sidse and combine them back together using str
14:29	gfredericks	(let [i (choose-index)] (str (subs s 0 (dec i)) (rand-char) (subs s (inc i))))
14:30	gfredericks	daniel__2: ^ that might do it
14:30	amalloy	daniel__2: but if you're doing a lot of this stuff, using a vector as an intermediate representation and converting to a string only when necessary will make your life easier
14:31	daniel__2	it will, let me try and understand both ways
14:31	daniel__2	how would i convert a string to a vector?
14:31	amalloy	&(vec "test")
14:31	lazybot	⇒ [\t \e \s \t]
14:32	daniel__2	,(rand-nth (vec "test"))
14:32	clojurebot	\t
14:33	gfredericks	daniel__2: rand-nth was probably a bad suggestion, since that doesn't help you know where to update
14:38	daniel__2	im just playing, how would i modify a character by a small amount? i can get the unicode code point and increment it but im not sure what the opposite of codepoints is to convert it back toa char
14:38	gfredericks	,(char 77)
14:38	clojurebot	\M
14:39	daniel__2	aaah ok
14:39	mindbender2	anyone familiar with heroku? I'm having troubles getting an app to run with foreman
14:39	daniel__2	this repl in irc is revolutionary
14:40	amalloy	haha daniel__2 it is a pretty old revolution
14:41	wink	amalloy: thanks. yeah, only a bit better :P
14:44	amalloy	&(-> "A" first int inc char str) ;; clojure's compellingly-simple ascii arithmetic...
14:44	lazybot	⇒ "B"
14:46	daniel__2	amalloy: nice
14:46	clojurebot	amalloy: therfor I return [previous] if rest is empty
14:47	daniel__2	whats ->
14:47	duck1123	shut up, clojurebot
14:47	amalloy	&(use 'clojure.walk)
14:47	lazybot	⇒ nil
14:47	amalloy	&(macroexpand-all '(-> "A" first int inc char str))
14:47	lazybot	⇒ (str (char (inc (int (first "A")))))
14:48	duck1123	-> puts second ->> puts last
14:48	duck1123	they're both great for simplifying code
14:49	daniel__2	doesnt look much simpler to me :S
14:49	daniel__2	whats does first do in this example?
14:50	gfredericks	turns "A" into a char
14:50	gfredericks	,(first "A")
14:50	clojurebot	\A
14:50	daniel__2	,(char "A")
14:50	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
14:50	daniel__2	hmmm ok
14:50	gfredericks	daniel__2: it works because (first) will start by converting the argument to a seq
14:50	gfredericks	c.f., ##(first "foobar")
14:50	lazybot	⇒ \f
14:51	amalloy	daniel__2: -> simplifies by turning the code inside-out. you can read from left to right and see the steps in order instead of in reverse order
14:51	duck1123	Take "A", grab the first char, turn it into an int, increment it, thurn it back into a char, thurn that into a string
14:51	amalloy	but it's not super-helpful in this case; -> and ->> are more useful for functions that take more than one arg
14:52	daniel__2	ok, i see
14:52	Vinzent	it helps to preserve natural order of reading here
14:52	amalloy	eg, ##(->> [0 1] (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)])) (map first) (filter even?) (take 40) (reduce +)) ;; add up the first 40 even fibonacci numbers
14:52	lazybot	⇒ 1655824071758491008590040
14:52	amalloy	wow, that high?
14:53	daniel__2	,(int (char "#"))
14:53	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
14:53	duck1123	they add up, drumroll
14:53	daniel__2	,(int (char "A"))
14:53	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
14:53	daniel__2	sorry, oops
14:53	amalloy	duck1123: i think you want
14:53	amalloy	~rimshot
14:53	clojurebot	Badum, ching
14:54	daniel__2	,(int (first "#"))
14:54	clojurebot	35
14:54	daniel__2	hmmm, why am i using codepoints when it seems to be as simple as int
14:54	daniel__2	,(int (first "$"))
14:54	clojurebot	36
14:55	gfredericks	daniel__2: because everybody spends their first year of clojure figuring out how their code doesn't need to be nearly as complicated as their first attempt?
14:55	daniel__2	:)
14:55	gfredericks	at least I did. And then another year or two after thaht.
14:57	daniel__2	how long has clojure been around?
14:58	duck1123	3.5 years?
14:59	daniel__2	thats about the right sort of time to start learning :D
14:59	duck1123	Sept 22 2007
15:04	daniel__2	gfredericks: can you explain (let [i (choose-index)] (str (subs s 0 (dec i)) (rand-char) (subs s (inc i)))) ?
15:05	daniel__2	i substitute s for the string
15:06	daniel__2	and the rand-char?
15:06	daniel__2	i dont want it completely random, i want it just offset
15:06	daniel__2	i cant tell whether you made up these functions or not
15:06	daniel__2	choose-index?
15:07	amalloy	he made up choose-index
15:07	amalloy	oh, and rand-char
15:10	daniel__2	ok, ill have a go at implementing them
15:15	daniel__2	why is it (.length "abc") and not (length "abc") ? does the . mean something?
15:16	Vinzent	daniel__2, it's a method call
15:16	raek	daniel__2: yes, it's the syntax you use to make a method call on a java object
15:16	Vinzent	(.method obj) in clojure is equivalent to obj.method in java
15:16	raek	so .length is not actually a clojure function at all
15:16	Vinzent	clojure one is count
15:17	daniel__2	aah right
15:17	daniel__2	thanks
15:18	Vinzent	does ^:keyword syntax always creating array-maps? I mean, is ^:foo ^:bar always equivalent to ^{:foo true :bar true}?
15:19	raek	I presume it uses the same way to choose the array map / hash map implementation as usual map literals
15:22	Vinzent	so the limit is 8, if my memory serves me?
15:22	raek	,(class '{1 1, 2 2, 3 3, 4 4, 5 5, 6 6, 7 7})
15:23	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
15:23	raek	,(class '{1 1, 2 2, 3 3, 4 4, 5 5, 6 6, 7 7, 8 8})
15:23	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
15:23	raek	,(class '{1 1, 2 2, 3 3, 4 4, 5 5, 6 6, 7 7, 8 8, 9 9})
15:23	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
15:23	raek	looks so
15:28	tdrgabi	Arafangion: a long time ago, you asked "what utf8 issue".
15:29	tdrgabi	while using noir and hiccup, something like: [:h1 "På"] looked like P�
15:29	tdrgabi	but it was because of my emacs and nothing wrong in clojure/noir
15:29	dnolen	core.match has reached the point where last 10% is 90% of the work :P
15:29	dnolen	0.2.0-alpha5 being released, probably the last one before cutting beta.
15:29	daniel__2	gfredericks: (let [i (choose-index)] (str (subs s 0 (dec i)) (rand-char) (subs s (inc i))))
15:30	daniel__2	im having trouble with the end cases
15:30	daniel__2	choose-index: (rand-int (dec (count s)))
15:30	daniel__2	that means (dec i) could be -1
15:31	daniel__2	and (inc i) could give an index too high
15:33	gfredericks	,(subs "foobar" 0 -1)
15:33	clojurebot	#<StringIndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.StringIndexOutOfBoundsException: String index out of range: -1>
15:33	gfredericks	daniel__2: I guess the dec should probably not be used.
15:33	gfredericks	,(subs "foobar" 0 0)
15:33	clojurebot	""
15:34	gfredericks	,(subs "foobar" 6)
15:34	clojurebot	""
15:34	gfredericks	I think the inc is correct though
15:35	gfredericks	daniel__2: I don't think choose-index should have the dec either
15:35	daniel__2	,(subs "foobar" 0 0) doesnt help either though
15:35	clojurebot	""
15:35	daniel__2	,(count "ABC")
15:35	clojurebot	3
15:35	daniel__2	,(nth "ABC" 3)
15:35	clojurebot	#<StringIndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.StringIndexOutOfBoundsException: String index out of range: 3>
15:35	daniel__2	thats why i have the dec
15:35	gfredericks	daniel__2: (rand-int 3) never returns 3
15:36	gfredericks	just [0 1 2]
15:36	daniel__2	oh
15:36	daniel__2	:D
15:36	gfredericks	what's wrong with (subs "foobar" 0 0)? If you're replacing the first character then you want the "before" part to be empty, right?
15:36	daniel__2	gfredericks: duh :S
15:37	daniel__2	thanks
15:37	gfredericks	yep
15:39	daniel__2	its still not quite right, at least im not getting exceptions
15:40	gfredericks	no exceptions == no bugs :)
15:41	daniel__2	nvm, found my mistake
15:41	duck1123	just like no failing tests means it's perfect
15:41	gfredericks	duck1123: that's what we tell our clients
15:41	daniel__2	i had (subs s 0 (inc i)) instead of (subs s (inc i))
15:41	gfredericks	that'll do it
15:42	daniel__2	perrrfect :D
15:45	daniel__2	lisps are tricky but definitely fun
15:51	Vinzent	,(class (meta ^:1 ^:2 ^:3 ^:4 ^:5 ^:6 ^:7 ^:8 ^:9 :foo))
15:51	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas>
15:51	Vinzent	,(class (meta ^:1 ^:2 ^:3 ^:4 ^:5 ^:6 ^:7 ^:8 ^:9 'foo))
15:51	clojurebot	nil
15:53	thorwil	dnolen: clojure.core.match, pretty please ;)
15:53	dnolen	thorwil: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH-28 done
15:53	dnolen	well not "done" but ok, I'll do that
15:54	thorwil	dnolen: does throwing if no match found vary, i.e. does it transport more information than a nil?
15:54	thorwil	cool
15:56	raek	,(class (meta ' ^:1 ^:2 ^:3 ^:4 ^:5 ^:6 ^:7 ^:8 ^:9 foo))
15:56	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
15:56	raek	Vinzent: ^
15:56	dnolen	thorwil: throwing would make it easier to determine what failed, but this should probably be a variant of match, like matchr (match-raise ?)
15:56	dnolen	match by default shouldn't throw I don't think.
15:57	raek	^{:foo "bar"} (quote baz) and (quote ^{:foo "bar"} baz) are not the same
15:57	thorwil	in my admittedly very limited experience, i stumbled over exceptions where i would have been happy with a nil a few times
15:57	dnolen	thorwil: yeah, it's not friendly at all, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH-29
16:02	Vinzent	raek, ah, should remember it. But I don't understand why: 'baz returns a symbol, ^ adds meta to the next symbol...
16:03	ghiu	how can i cast a symbol to a string? like :a => "a" ?
16:04	brehaut	,(name :a)
16:04	clojurebot	"a"
16:04	brehaut	and :a is a keyword, not a symbol
16:04	raek	Vinzent: ^ add metadata to the data structure to the right, which is the list (quote baz)
16:05	dnolen	I'm still amazed that core.match just works w/ ClojureScript
16:05	ghiu	thanks to both :)
16:06	raek	^{:foo "bar"} (+ 1 2) adds metadata to the _code_ of (+ 1 2), not to the runtime result
16:06	raek	(for that, the 'with-meta' function is used)
16:06	Vinzent	raek, hm, right, ^ is in the reader time and (quote baz) is in runtime
16:07	raek	exactly
16:07	Vinzent	,(class (meta ' ^:1 ^:2 ^:3 ^:4 ^:5 ^:6 ^:7 ^:8 foo))
16:07	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
16:07	Vinzent	ok, thank you raek
16:20	daniel__2	what do you do if you want more than one line in an if's else statement
16:20	ghiu	how to check if a value is a number? something like string?
16:20	Vinzent	daniel__2, use (do ...)
16:20	gfredericks	daniel__2: you can use (do ...) whenever you need several statements in place of one
16:21	Vinzent	ghiu, number?
16:21	gfredericks	,(doc number?)
16:21	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x is a Number"
16:21	daniel__2	this is getting bloody confusing
16:21	daniel__2	i've got loop, when, if all jumbled up
16:21	ghiu	Vinzent: thank. it is not documented here http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
16:22	gfredericks	daniel__2: that does sound confusing
16:22	gfredericks	when and if are much more similar to eachother than to loop
16:22	Vinzent	daniel__2, usually you don't need this, because usually there is no side effects...
16:23	daniel__2	i dont think i am thinking of the easiest way
16:23	daniel__2	i have a function that takes 3 arguments [generation source target]
16:23	daniel__2	i want to start at 0 and loop until i reach generation
16:23	gfredericks	(doseq [i (range generation)] ...)
16:24	Vinzent	ghiu, hm, indeed, that should be there is the "test" section...
16:24	gfredericks	doseq is for side effects though. Does your function need side-effects?
16:24	daniel__2	if i havent reached generation, i want to modify source until it passes a test and then pass that new source back into the function
16:25	daniel__2	i dont know what you mean by side-effects
16:25	daniel__2	i think i need to break the problem into smaller pieces
16:25	Vinzent	daniel__2, function have side effects when it modifying some state outside of it
16:25	gfredericks	daniel__2: a "pure function" is one that has no side effects, which means that all it does is take an input and return something completely determined by the input
16:25	daniel__2	no, it should be pure
16:26	daniel__2	isnt that the idea of functional programming? arent all functions ideally pure?
16:26	gfredericks	in functional programming languages it's usually good practice to code in pure functions when it's not too difficult
16:26	gfredericks	daniel__2: yes
16:26	Vinzent	well, maybe not all, but most of them
16:27	gfredericks	daniel__2: your description of "start at zero and loop until ..." is an imperative-sounding description; it's not entirely clear what the functional equivalent would be
16:27	gfredericks	perhaps map, perhaps reduce...
16:27	daniel__2	(defn evolve [generation source target]) ... i want it to pass back a modified source to itself generation times
16:27	brehaut	Vinzent, daniel__2: a function that does not change external state but depends on some changing external state is also impure, e.g. if you get the system time or ask for a random number
16:28	gfredericks	daniel__2: you might want iterate
16:28	daniel__2	yes, i think i do
16:29	gfredericks	then you would call (nth iterated-seq generations) on the result
16:29	amalloy	(nth (iterate #(compute-next-generation % target) source) generations) sounds about right to me
16:29	amalloy	though i'm just guessing on what "target" is for
16:30	gfredericks	yep that sorta thing
16:30	daniel__2	im trying to evolve a random string into hello world
16:30	amalloy	then yep, my guess is about right
16:30	daniel__2	target is "hello world" so i use it to test the fitness of source
16:30	amalloy	daniel__2: i think you should actually use a fitness function, not a target
16:31	daniel__2	i have a fitness function (defn fitness [source target])
16:31	daniel__2	compares source and target and returns an int
16:31	amalloy	okay. i'd suggest passing that in to compute-next, rather than the target itself
16:31	daniel__2	but then how will i be able to test the fitness on the next iteration?
16:32	daniel__2	ill have lost my target
16:32	amalloy	but i actually meant something slightly higher level: (defn fitness-fn [target] (fn [source] (...do work...))
16:32	amalloy	then you can create (fitness-fn "hello world") once, and use the function it returns to compare against any number of sources
16:33	daniel__2	i see
16:33	gfredericks	daniel__2: ^ fun with higher-order functions :)
16:33	daniel__2	but then i have "hello world" in my code, and ideally its an argument i pass to main
16:34	gfredericks	then (fitness-fn arg-from-main) instead
16:35	daniel__2	its not pure if it relies on an arg from main though is it?
16:35	daniel__2	thats why i have to pass it in each time
16:36	daniel__2	maybe i just misunderstand the concept of higher order function
16:36	gfredericks	daniel__2: higher order function means a function where some of the args or the return value is also a function
16:37	gfredericks	in this case fitness-fn, as amalloy described, is a higher order function because it returns a function
16:37	daniel__2	right
16:37	gfredericks	it returns a fitness function with a particular target
16:37	gfredericks	you would then take the returned function and use it with iterate
16:38	daniel__2	i think i get it
16:38	gfredericks	I think amalloy suggested it because then the algorithm that does the mutation and such doesn't need to know the details of how the fitness function is computed -- it just takes the fitness function as an argument
16:38	gfredericks	(instead of the target)
16:38	daniel__2	yes, clever
16:41	daniel__2	i dont understand the (nth (iterate line...know any simple examples illustrating this?
16:42	gfredericks	iterate repeatedly applies a function; so ##(take 8 (iterate #(* 3 %) 5))
16:42	lazybot	⇒ (5 15 45 135 405 1215 3645 10935)
16:43	gfredericks	nth just gives you the element at a particular index of the resulting infinite seq
16:43	gfredericks	so it's equivalent to applying a function n times
16:43	daniel__2	right, like a loop
16:44	daniel__2	or dont know if you know ruby ... n.times ..
16:44	gfredericks	I do know ruby. It's like that, but for pure functions
16:45	gfredericks	not that you _have_ to use pure functions with iterate, but that's the general flavor in contrast to ruby
16:46	gfredericks	e.g., in ruby n.times does not have the aspect of passing the return value of the function back into it as the argument. It just performs some actions for side effects n times
16:46	amalloy	daniel__2: https://gist.github.com/1274144 is a draft of how this algorithm could look if you were evolving integers instead of strings
16:47	amalloy	and of course to evolve strings instead, you change fitness-fn, and pass different args to start
16:48	daniel__2	you just knocked that up now?
16:48	amalloy	yeah
16:49	amalloy	you seemed like you could use something more concrete :P
16:49	daniel__2	you are passing sources - more than one source?
16:49	amalloy	daniel__2: working with a pool of candidates every generation
16:50	amalloy	the easiest choice was to have evolve always keep the survivor pool the same size as the candidate pool, but you could do it differently; i'm no evolutionary-algorithm expert
16:50	daniel__2	ok, thats jumping ahead of what im doing :) im only mutating one source at the moment
16:51	daniel__2	ill take some time to study this and see what i come up with
16:51	daniel__2	cheers
16:51	amalloy	enjoy
16:51	amalloy	i'm off to lunch, so ask someone else for help
16:52	brehaut	gfredericks: re side-effects in iterate, the docs explicitly state that the function must be free of side effects; that means that iterate has the potential to do reordering of operations in future versions which would produce weird results with side effects.
16:54	gfredericks	brehaut: what operations could be reorderd?
16:55	amalloy	yeah, that's fairly implausible
16:56	brehaut	implausible or not, I'm not sure its wise to encourage people to write code outside of the guarantees of the core functions
16:57	amalloy	brehaut: for some things, like reduce, i agree. but the docs for iterate are just lamely reminding you that pure functions are good; there's no way they could reorder or depend on purity in any way
16:57	gfredericks	it's bizarre that the docs for iterate say such a thing while other functions like split-with do not. And split-with will certainly call your predicate twice as often as necessary
16:59	gfredericks	,(split-with #(< (rand) 0.8) (range 10))
16:59	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval27$fn>
16:59	gfredericks	gerg
16:59	gfredericks	,(split-with (fn [_] (< (rand) 0.8)) (range 10))
16:59	clojurebot	[() (2 3 4 5 6 ...)]
17:00	gfredericks	^ that's when I'd like to know that pure functions are required
17:02	daniel__2	hmm is -fn deliberate on the function name
17:02	gfredericks	not sure what you mean
17:02	daniel__2	seems like its defined fitness-fn and called with fitness
17:02	gfredericks	oh in amalloy's code?
17:02	daniel__2	in amalloy_'s example
17:03	gfredericks	daniel__2: I don't think he made a mistake.
17:03	gfredericks	he let's the result of fitness-fn to the name 'fitness'
17:03	gfredericks	and also uses it as the name of the argument to evolve
17:03	daniel__2	yeah, just seen
17:04	daniel__2	i cant see why he needed to do the let though
17:05	daniel__2	instead of fitness-fn goal
17:05	gfredericks	you mean instead of placing the call to fitness-fn within the anonymous function?
17:06	daniel__2	yeah
17:08	gfredericks	it would have worked the other way, but this way fitness-fn only gets called once, instead of every time the anonymous function is called
17:13	daniel__2	so the iterate function...it will iterate with the return value in place of %
17:13	daniel__2	so whatever it returns goes back in again
17:13	daniel__2	the (take (count ... line
17:16	daniel__2	how can i implement the equivalent of ruby until
17:17	daniel__2	until fitness > old-fitness do mutate(source)
17:17	daniel__2	so keep trying mutations until you get a better fitness
17:27	amalloy	&(doc take-while)
17:27	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
17:27	amalloy	or drop-while, either way
17:29	daniel__2	im making my evolve recursive, is that a bad idea?
17:30	daniel__2	actually, i dont know how that will work with the iterate
17:30	gfredericks	daniel__2: with iterate, instead of using recursion directly, you just return whatever ought to be passed in to the function the next time
17:31	daniel__2	(take-while condition function) ?
17:31	daniel__2	will repeat function until condition is true
17:31	daniel__2	and then return the result of the passing function
17:31	gfredericks	not a function, a seq
17:32	gfredericks	so you could use take-while with iterate
17:32	gfredericks	,(first (drop-while #(< % 1000) (iterate #(* 2 %) 3)))
17:32	clojurebot	1536
17:33	gfredericks	,(take-while #(< % 1000) (iterate #(* 2 %) 3))
17:33	clojurebot	(3 6 12 24 48 ...)
17:34	daniel__2	right, hmmm
17:34	daniel__2	this is a good brani workout
17:34	daniel__2	brain*
17:35	gfredericks	once you get used to it, looking at imperative ruby code will make you ill
17:35	gfredericks	I guess that may or may not be a good thing
17:35	daniel__2	thats doing something slightly different
17:35	daniel__2	i still want to iterate over n generations
17:36	daniel__2	but for each generation, i want to only take the fitter child
17:36	gfredericks	so you have a collection of children and you want to pick the one with the highest fitness?
17:36	daniel__2	not really
17:37	daniel__2	i dont have a collection of children yet, i just want to iterate my mutate function until the fitness of the child is greater than it was before
17:37	daniel__2	i have (mutate source)
17:38	gfredericks	ah, so (drop-while #(<= (fitness %) fitness-from-before) (iterate mutate this-guy))
17:38	daniel__2	i dont want to accept the result is (< (fitness (mutate source)) (fitness source))
17:38	daniel__2	if*
17:38	gfredericks	maybe remove makes more sense
17:38	gfredericks	(first (remove #(<= (fitness %) fitness-from-before) (iterate mutate this-guy)))
17:41	daniel__2	need paren highlighting in irc :p
17:43	gfredericks	drop-while would still work there, I just like remove better for silly personal reasons
17:43	daniel__2	just compiling for the moment of truth
17:44	daniel__2	need to get a repl in vim
17:44	daniel__2	this takes too long
17:44	gfredericks	daniel__2: what's your workflow?
17:45	daniel__2	at the moment, make changes to the code, compile, execute
17:45	daniel__2	trying small experiments in a repl
17:46	daniel__2	would be good not to have to exit vim to compile
17:46	gfredericks	are you using leiningen?
17:47	daniel__2	ja
17:47	gfredericks	I normally have two windows, one for the repl and one for vim. I can reload the code with (require 'some.ns :reload)
17:47	amalloy	daniel__2: why exit vim? just C-z to suspend it
17:47	daniel__2	amalloy: thats a possibility, i just never thought of it
17:48	gfredericks	daniel__2: no reason it should take you more than a couple seconds to try out the code you wrote
17:48	daniel__2	im getting an invalid number of arguments passed to iterate anyway :(
17:48	ghiu	how can i take a map as input and return the same map with keywords converted to strings? example: {:a 1, :b "23", :c '(1 2 3 {:d [:e :f]})} => {"a" 1, "b" "23", "c" '(1 2 3 {:d [:e :f]})}
17:49	gfredericks	ghiu: (zipmap (map name (keys m)) (vals m))
17:49	bdb_	stringify-keys
17:49	bdb_	&(doc stringify-keys)
17:49	lazybot	⇒ "([m]); Recursively transforms all map keys from keywords to strings."
17:50	gfredericks	bdb_: that would fail his example of being not-recursive
17:50	bdb_	as lazybot just informed me :-)
17:50	gfredericks	good ole lazybot
17:50	amalloy	(inc lazybot)
17:50	lazybot	⟹ 0
17:50	gfredericks	:)
17:51	ghiu	wow, thanks :D
17:51	gfredericks	yezzir
17:52	bdb_	forgive me if this has been discussed to death (feel free to point me towards a blog post or something) but what are people using for durability in clojure servers/services?
17:53	daniel__2	i'd paste some code, but i havent got my vim working since i reinstalled my OS
17:53	daniel__2	"+y doesnt work
17:54	daniel__2	might be something to do with vimclojure, not sure
17:55	daniel__2	https://gist.github.com/1274252
17:55	napping	letters still work as names?
17:56	gfredericks	daniel__2: iterate takes two args, so something is wrong on line 22
17:56	gfredericks	you probably meant (iterate mutate source)?
17:57	amalloy	the function passed to remove also should take an argument
17:57	ghiu	hmmm
17:57	daniel__2	there are two args... the anon function and source
17:57	ghiu	shouldn't this work? (walk #(%1) #(%1) {:a 1, :b "23", :c '(1 2 3 {:d [:e :f]})} )
17:57	amalloy	ghiu: no
17:57	daniel__2	ah wait, line 22
17:57	ghiu	stringify-keys is perfect but i need to stringify any occurrence of any key
17:57	amalloy	#(%1) is basically never what you want
17:57	gfredericks	ghiu: what do you want #(%1) to do?
17:58	napping	It seems a bit odd that a {} pattern treats a vector as indexed by integers, while wrapping it like [& {}] uses apply hash-map and treats it as an association list
17:58	gfredericks	,(#(%1) #(println "HELLO!"))
17:58	clojurebot	HELLO!
17:58	amalloy	gfredericks: i want it to die in a fire
17:58	napping	Is there any better explanation of that than what I can already see by macroexpanding let?
17:59	daniel__2	amalloy: what was wrong with the function passed to remove?
17:59	gfredericks	daniel__2: you're not using the argument anywhere
17:59	amalloy	daniel__2: it doesn't take any arguments. there's no %
17:59	daniel__2	ah
17:59	ghiu	amalloy: i want to check every form and if it's a keyword, turn it into a string instead
17:59	amalloy	remove calls its function once on each element
18:00	icefox	s
18:00	amalloy	ghiu: just use clojure.walk/postwalk if you want a simple walk; don't rewrite it in terms of walk
18:00	daniel__2	instead of (mutate source) it should be %?
18:00	daniel__2	so (fitness %)
18:00	amalloy	yeah
18:01	daniel__2	kk
18:01	daniel__2	lets see
18:01	amalloy	and as gfredericks says you need to unwrap the args to iterate: (iterate mutate source)
18:02	daniel__2	yeah, done that
18:02	daniel__2	sweet, i get some kind of output
18:02	daniel__2	need more generations :)
18:02	gfredericks	no exceptions == no bugs
18:02	ghiu	amalloy: (walk #((if (keyword? %1) (name %1) (%1))) #(%1) {:a 1, :b "23", :c '(1 2 3 {:d [:e :f]})} ) ?
18:03	gfredericks	oh boy
18:03	amalloy	that has like a hundred parens too many
18:03	daniel__2	will be interesting to see how long it takes for 5000 generations
18:03	daniel__2	50 took longer than i expected
18:03	amalloy	see also ##(doc identity), ghiu
18:03	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns its argument."
18:03	gfredericks	ghiu: ask us again after you have removed exactly one hundred parens from that expression
18:05	daniel__2	i think i want the opposite of remove
18:05	daniel__2	or the opposite condition :/
18:05	gfredericks	daniel__2: that's filter
18:05	daniel__2	gets as far from hello world as its possible to get
18:06	amalloy	&(doc filter)
18:06	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
18:06	amalloy	haha awesome, daniel__2
18:06	daniel__2	ok, thanks
18:06	amalloy	let us know what string is farthest away from hello world
18:06	daniel__2	țȑȖǩȊȫȂșǯȽȹȓ
18:06	gfredericks	daniel__2: although it sounds like your fitness function might be backwards
18:06	amalloy	it can be the toy program people write when they stop using a language
18:06	daniel__2	lol
18:06	gfredericks	amalloy: :-D
18:07	gfredericks	that looks like a program hiredman would write
18:07	daniel__2	gfredericks: i've tested my fitness function, works fine
18:07	daniel__2	this is looking better now
18:09	daniel__2	still doesnt seem right, after 50000 generations i have dlk33ndoemgl
18:10	daniel__2	aah, i get why
18:12	daniel__2	when i have [& args] what are the args bound to for use inside the function?
18:13	daniel__2	arg1 arg2?
18:13	gfredericks	the arguments are a list called args
18:13	gfredericks	,((fn [& args] (pr-str ["My args are" args])) 7 8 :famished)
18:13	clojurebot	"[\"My args are\" (7 8 :famished)]"
18:15	gfredericks	daniel__2: this is your main function?
18:15	daniel__2	yeah
18:15	gfredericks	you could do normal arguments like (fn [foo bar]...), but then your program would probably crash if you didn't get exactly 2 command line args
18:15	daniel__2	i want to make the start args abstract so i can change them on each run
18:15	amalloy	daniel__2: you can probably save a lot of wasted compilation time by dropping the gen-class
18:16	amalloy	and then using clojure.main, which is a precompiled class in clojure.jar, as your entry point
18:18	daniel__2	ok
18:18	amalloy	better, of course, is to use a persistent jvm like the repl or swank/slime, so that you don't need a -main at all, but that's probably more work
18:19	amalloy	and i only suggest changing because you were annoyed about compilation time - this is generally not a priority
18:19	daniel__2	yes, ill try and get slime working when i get more time
18:19	daniel__2	its 1:17am and i just want this to work so i can go to bed :/
18:20	brehaut	daniel__2: with the emacs starter kit, slime is much easier to get going than it used to be
18:20	gfredericks	daniel__2: well then your problem is you live in a time zone where it's late.
18:21	daniel__2	yep
18:21	brehaut	daniel__2: bookmark https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit/
18:21	daniel__2	brehaut: dont want to learn emacs, would rather stick with vim
18:23	gfredericks	daniel__2: I use vim and it's only mildly painful. If I don't think about it then I don't know what I'm missing.
18:23	daniel__2	sure
18:25	daniel__2	touch README
18:25	daniel__2	oops
18:25	amalloy	hah, i smell a project about to get pushed to github
18:25	daniel__2	lol
18:26	gfredericks	eh? what does touch README do (apart from the obvious)?
18:26	technomancy	actually slime and the starter kit are more or less orthogonal
18:26	amalloy	gfredericks: it's a step github recommends in their "how to create a repo on github"
18:26	technomancy	unless you mean the overall getting started experience is easier
18:26	gfredericks	ah ha
18:27	brehaut	technomancy: yeah the over all experience
18:27	amalloy	they don't like repos without a README, though it doesn't seem like an empty one is any better
18:27	daniel__2	right after i install ssh itll be on there :D
18:27	amalloy	daniel__2: windows?
18:27	daniel__2	no, arch linux
18:28	daniel__2	i reinstalled my ubuntu and arch a couple of days ago
18:28	daniel__2	things are still not all setup
18:28	amalloy	fascinating. i didn't think there were unix distros with ssh not installed
18:28	gfredericks	yeah that sounds pretty unhelpful
18:28	amalloy	good point, technomancy
18:28	gfredericks	technomancy: README.xml? :)
18:29	amalloy	any day now github will add support for README.clj, just you wait. then we'll have won
18:29	gfredericks	somebody start encouraging that in the java community and see if it catches on
18:29	gfredericks	amalloy: we'll have won the opportunity to escape every damn double-quote we use? :)
18:29	clojurebot	amalloy is <amalloy> just use juxt, it'll be great
18:30	daniel__2	amalloy: arch pretty much makes you choose everything
18:30	gfredericks	(inc clojurebot)
18:30	lazybot	⟹ 2
18:30	daniel__2	which for me was good, i learnt a lot
18:30	amalloy	hahaha best ever. thanks clojurebot, that was perfect timing
18:30	ghiu	amalloy: got it, thanks (postwalk (fn [x] (if (keyword? x) (name x) x)) m))
18:30	daniel__2	anyway, i have to go to bed https://github.com/danielstockton/evolve/blob/master/src/evolve/core.clj
18:30	daniel__2	thanks for all your help, i will resume tomorrow evening
18:31	gfredericks	goodnight
18:38	bdb_	README.clj is only a pull request away: https://github.com/github/markup
18:38	bdb_	"The code we use to render README.your_favorite_markup"
19:44	icefox	Is there a list of janitor type tasks for clojurescript anywhere?
19:52	amalloy	icefox: you asked this yesterday, right? maybe i'm the only dumb one in the channel, but i can only guess at what "janitor type tasks" means
19:54	ibdknox	amalloy: dude you're so dumb.
19:54	ibdknox	wait
19:54	ibdknox	so am I
19:54	ibdknox	:(
19:54	icefox	amalloy: simple things like, function foo isn't documented, or function foo is deprecated and any code that uses it should be upgraded. The Linux project started the idea of janitors as a way to help get new developers into the Linux project. In trade for doing janitor type tasks the devs promise to review and help them get familiar with the code base
19:54	amalloy	ibdknox: in fairness, i couldn't answer his question even if i did know, because i don't know much about cljs
19:54	amalloy	but perhaps some prodding will inspire the rest of the channel
19:55	icefox	really I want to learn ClojureScript and one way that seems to work for me is to help contribute so I wanted to know if there are any boring not too difficult tasks that needed done
19:55	ibdknox	icefox: I'm not sure anyone is keeping a list updated for such things
19:56	ibdknox	icefox: the best thing you could do right now, is just use it
19:56	ibdknox	-,
19:56	icefox	yah, been poking around with it making some apps
19:56	jli	hm. if I want to add a thing to the end of a sequence, is it better to do (conj (vec coll) x) or (concat coll [x])?
19:57	jli	or am I doing something wrong?
19:57	jli	(yes, I know it's slow)
19:57	amalloy	jli: they are both right and both wrong, depending on what you're doing
19:59	ibdknox	jli: why do you have a seq if you need to add something to the end of it?
19:59	amalloy	though, really, (conj (vec coll) x) is a bit nuts - if you're going to be adding onto the end you should make it a vec to begin with, in which case (conj coll x) is fine
20:01	jli	I start with (range), then I map over it, and then I want to add something to the end
20:02	amalloy	if you're only doing that once, concat is much better
20:02	jli	I tried doing "(vec (range ..))" but after the map, conj adds to the beginning
20:03	amalloy	indeed, because map turns it back into a lazy sequence
20:03	ibdknox	concat will keep it lazy
20:07	jli	right. okay. concat, rock. thx.
20:35	kab3wm	ibdknox: Noir question for you.. is there any way to conditionally insert a partial if a flash message exists? The problem I'm running into is if I check if flash-get exists, it pops it and I can't access it after that.
20:43	ibdknox	kab3wm: you can just us an if-let :)
20:43	ibdknox	kab3wm: (if-let [someval (flash-get)] (partial-with-val someval))
20:44	kab3wm	ibdknox: cool, I'll give that a shot. thank you.
23:13	metajack	Why does (String/valueOf nil) throw an exception, but (#(String/valueOf %) nil) return "null" (Clojure 1.3)?
23:22	zodiak	metajack, I would ~guess~ that clojure deals with looking at what the String java lib expects (a string) and if it's nil, then all that the function can return is nil, whereas, the java function has no idea about how to handle nil's in strings
23:22	zodiak	that would be my guess after learning clojure for a month ;)
23:32	brehaut	metajack: thats really quite surprising
23:33	symbole	Maybe (String/valueOf nil) is not calling valueOf(Object obj).
23:33	metajack	brehaut: it throws null pointer exception. from what i can tell all the other versions of valueOf take primitives
23:34	brehaut	my java is not super sharp, but i didn't think the primitive types were nullable?
23:34	brehaut	hi talios
23:34	talios	hola
23:35	symbole	brehaut: They're not. Maybe they're being set to null internally, and that's why it fails? I'm not really sure.
23:37	symbole	#() is a Clojure function which takes Object(s) as an argument, so I think nil might be converted to an Object before it makes its way to valueOf.
23:37	brehaut	symbole: its implicitly an Object if nil anyway
23:38	metajack	well in the real code i found this in, ti's a named function defined with defn, but i reproduced it with #()
23:39	brehaut	metajack: #() is expanded by the reader to a (fn […) form
23:39	brehaut	er fn*
23:39	metajack	So I don't think that particular form matters for this issue.
23:41	brehaut	metajack: indeed; it seems only that its crossing a method boundary that matters
23:42	amalloy	,(String/valueOf nil)
23:42	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
23:42	amalloy	,(#(String/valueOf %) nil)
23:42	clojurebot	"null"
23:42	amalloy	$javadoc String valueOf
23:42	lazybot	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html#valueOf(java.lang.Object)
23:44	amalloy	so valueOf(Object) is willing to convert null to "null". the others aren't, of course, because they take primitives
23:45	metajack	So direct invocation basically picks one of the primitive versions incorrectly?
23:46	amalloy	metajack: probably. i'm not intimately familiar with clojure's typehinting algorithms, but i believe the compiler knows that a nil literal is of class null
23:47	amalloy	whereas in the other case it only knows it will be given an Object. perhaps it chooses to compile that into a no-reflection dispatch to String/valueOf(Object)
23:49	amalloy	,(String/valueOf ^Object nil)
23:49	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas>
23:49	amalloy	,(#(String/valueOf ^Integer %) nil)
23:49	clojurebot	"null"
23:49	amalloy	,(#(String/valueOf ^int %) nil)
23:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: int, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
23:49	amalloy	hmph
23:50	brehaut	,(let [a nil] (String/valueOf a))
23:50	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
23:50	brehaut	,(let [a nil] (String/valueOf ^Object a))
23:50	clojurebot	"null"
23:50	amalloy	sure, that much is given
23:51	symbole	metajack: I think it's worth posting this quesiton to the mailing list. I'm curious what this is all about.
23:51	amalloy	i'm surprised to see that neither of metajack's original versions causes the compiler to emit reflective code
23:51	brehaut	likewise
23:52	brehaut	what is particularly odd is, it should give a more useful error if its selecting a method incorrectly based on type
23:52	brehaut	, (let [a nil] (String/valueOf ^int a))
23:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: int, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
23:52	amalloy	brehaut: no, i don't think it should. the exception should be coming when the compiler tries to unbox the Long it's working with
23:53	amalloy	and discovers that the Long is nil
23:54	brehaut	but its not choosing to unbox right? theres no reflection warnings
23:56	amalloy	brehaut: it's not dealing with a primitive long, it's compiled against a Long, i think (this is assuming, arbitrarily, that it's chosen the long overload)
23:56	amalloy	so the un-reflective code says "unbox this Long to a long, then call String/valueOf"
23:57	brehaut	I'm not sure i understand why it would choose to compile against the long overload
23:57	brehaut	(and incidentally, the same error occurs in 1.2)
23:59	amalloy	brehaut: i don't think it should compile against the long overload, but i can imagine it happening, and it would explain the issue