#clojure – 2011-10-06

2011-10-06

00:00	duck1123	there's 2 parts to it. The clojure server, and the emacs client in elisp. I believe there's something for VIM as well
00:01	trptcolin	ah, looks like there's some fanciness going on, deprecated Thread.stop method and all
00:02	alandipert	trptcolin: goodnight & godspeed, that would be a cool repl addition!
00:02	trptcolin	thanks man
00:02	trptcolin	and thanks duck1123 and amalloy too
00:03	trptcolin	naptime for me as well
00:12	tomoj	suppose you have [[0 "foo"] [1 "bar"] [5 "baz"] [6 "bang"] [8 "bing"]] and want [["foo" "bar"] ["baz" "bang"] ["bing"]]. or you have [["foo" :x] ["bar" :y] ["baz" :y] ["bang" :z] ["bing" :z]] and want [["foo"] ["bar" "baz"] ["bang" "bing"]]
00:12	tomoj	is there some slightly more general partitioning hof that can handle this kind of thing?
00:14	tomoj	hmm, actually
00:16	amalloy	tomoj: (partition-all 2 (map second foo)) for the first one?
00:17	amalloy	i mean, it's not entirely clear how your inputs and outputs are related
00:17	tomoj	yeah..
00:18	tomoj	in the first, partitions are runs where 'first' of each value increases by 1
00:19	tomoj	in the second, it's just partition-by second I think?
00:19	amalloy	tomoj: i wrote a more-general partitioning scheme you might like. let me find it
00:19	amalloy	https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L180
00:20	tomoj	https://gist.github.com/56dc10b22a3d8fdc26c4 duh
00:20	tomoj	oh, cool
00:21	tomoj	I was trying to do something like that with (->> .. (partition 2 1) (partition-by ..))
00:21	tomoj	but it wasn't working
00:21	amalloy	yeah, partition-by is a special case of partition-between
00:29	tomoj	hmm https://gist.github.com/9c059ff9d231b61c6bb7
00:29	tomoj	I don't like either of those
00:31	tomoj	but they work, thanks
00:31	amalloy	tomoj: the first one looks more like (partition-between (fn [[[x] [y]]] (not= y (inc x))
00:32	tomoj	that's better
03:25	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:25	cark	good morning sir
04:24	michaelr525	hello
04:30	kzar	What causes null pointer exceptions generally? Any ideas how to get more information about why one happened?
04:31	clgv	kzar: strange compiler errors often do in clojure 1.2
04:31	kzar	clgv: I'm using 1.3
04:31	clgv	kzar: I can't say often then - maybe they improved a bit over there
04:32	clgv	kzar: do you get NPEs when compiling?
04:32	kzar	clgv: What's a NPE?
04:32	kzar	oh
04:32	kzar	sorry
04:33	kzar	clgv: Hmm well all clojure's compiled right? I get the error when evaling some code in the buffer, also when same code is run from within one of my tests with `lein test`
04:33	clgv	kzar: you get no hint where in the source it happens?
04:34	raek	some functions indicate "failure" with NPEs
04:34	raek	,(let [[a b c] [1 2]] c)
04:34	clojurebot	nil
04:34	raek	*with nils
04:34	clgv	raek: but then you get the source line in most cases
04:35	raek	ah
04:35	raek	kzar: you don't get a source line?
04:35	kzar	raek: Actually I do, sorry I didn't realise it was anything useful until you mentioned it
04:35	kzar	raek: That gives me a hint, thanks
04:36	kzar	raek: So much crap gets printed it's hard to pick out the one useful tid-bit eh?
04:36	clgv	kzar: use clojure.stacktrace and have a look for your files in there
04:37	clgv	is there a shortcut function to combine two map entries in a map similar to update-in
04:38	clgv	the 1.2 cheat sheet doesnt tell me any
04:39	cark	,(update-in {:a {:b 1}} [:a] merge {:c 2})
04:39	clojurebot	{:a {:c 2, :b 1}}
04:39	cark	?
04:40	cark	maybe not a shortcut, but short enough, if that's what you mean
04:40	raek	clgv: can you give an example of a desired output for a certain input?
04:40	clgv	I thought of something like: {:a 1 :b 3} [:a :b] + :c -> {:c 4}
04:40	clgv	I skipped other keys of the map
04:41	cark	ok i was way off =P
04:42	raek	so :a and :b should be dissoced, and :c should be assoced with the result
04:42	cark	i can't think of a one-liner for this one
04:42	clgv	yeah. thats what the intention was
04:43	thorwil	a job for select-keys and vals, i guess
04:43	clgv	it seems to be a basic use case for a map, so I thought there might be something
04:43	clgv	thorwill: yeah that might do to implement it
04:44	raek	(defn combine-vals [m keys f key] (assoc (apply dissoc keys) key (apply f (map m keys))))
04:46	thorwil	oh
04:46	raek	it has three sub-expressions: 1) make a map without 'keys', 2) make a new value by applying 'f' to the values for 'keys' in the original map, 3) assoc 'key' with that value in the map from 1)
04:47	thorwil	clgv: keys in the map that are not in the list should be in the result
04:47	thorwil	?
04:47	raek	probably looks more readable if you bind 1) and 2) in a let
04:47	clgv	raeks approach looks fine
04:48	thorwil	raeks approaches tend to do that :) i assumed other key-vals should be dropped, not kept
04:50	raek	the argument order [m key f keys] feels more natural to me (this is very subjective and a different order may feel more natural for you in the context of your program)
04:53	raek	but [m keys f key] is more consistent with update-in, though
04:53	raek	shrug
04:54	clgv	yeah, I used the latter
05:12	zakwilson	Maybe I'm tired, but I haven't been able to find it. What do I put in my project.clj to get all of contrib 1.3?
05:14	zakwilson	Or has contrib gone away and been replaced by libraries directly under org.clojure?
05:15	Blafasel	Yes.
05:16	thorwil	zakwilson: see http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib
05:17	zakwilson	thorwil: yeah, I found that just before you linked it. Looks like a bunch of stuff has moved though. This is going to require changes to my code, I think.
05:17	raek	and http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
05:18	thorwil	zakwilson: you might want to put ":repositories {"sonatype-oss-public" "https://oss.sonatype.org/content/groups/public/"}" into your project.clj
05:28	zakwilson	Hmm... append-spit seems to be gone. Is there a new name for it?
05:28	raek	zakwilson: spit now takes an :append option
05:28	zakwilson	Ahh.
05:28	raek	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.java.io/iofactory
05:29	raek	it sends all its arguments to clojure.java.io/writer
05:29	raek	and therefore gains the superpowers of clojure.java.io
05:30	raek	(works on Files, URLs, strings (becomes file or url), byte arrays, sockets, &c)
05:31	zakwilson	Ok, this actually looks like it might be working with pretty minor changes then.
05:32	zakwilson	Is there a replacement for read-lines?
05:32	raek	line-seq
05:33	raek	but it does not close the stream like read-lines
05:34	raek	most file operations are often used together with 'with-open'
05:35	raek	but watch out so that you don't return the lazy line-seq out of with-open
05:36	clgv	is there a min function that uses compare automatically?
05:36	raek	either process it inside with-open or wrap the line-seq call in a doall call
05:37	zakwilson	Got it. Thanks.
05:44	ejackson	morning all
06:23	kzar	raek: It's this line that's giving a null pointer exception, but I can't see why! https://github.com/kzar/ring-hmac-check/blob/master/src/ring/middleware/hmac_check.clj#L29
06:23	kzar	raek: When called from here https://github.com/kzar/ring-hmac-check/blob/master/test/ring/middleware/hmac_check_test.clj#L24
06:29	raek	kzar: it's hard for me to tell too (I don't spot anything obvious) without the stacktrace
06:30	kzar	raek: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125118
06:47	raek	kzar: I think the "or" form should be a map and not a vector
06:48	raek	pred becomes nil because the :or didn't work
06:48	raek	it was probably treated as {0 forbidden-handler, 1 (fn [req] ...), 2 ..., 3 ...}
06:49	raek	since vectors can be seen as maps from indices to values
06:49	raek	but it would be good if the compiler could complain when you try to do this
06:55	raek	kzar: maybe you could open a ticket in Jira regarding that the :or form is silently ignored if it's of the wrong kind (a vector in the case of map destructuring)
07:42	michaelr525	i'm falling asleep here
07:54	kzar	raek: Thanks! I've got it working, new version pushed also I opened that ticket http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-848
08:21	fdaoud	Rest in peace, Steve Jobs
09:06	bhenry	if you use and require inside a do, is it only available inside the do?
09:09	raek	bhenry: no
09:10	raek	"use" and "require :as" mutate the current namespace when they add aliases
09:23	thoefer	Is there any particular reason why the and macro uses stack consuming recursion instead of recur?
09:23	thoefer	I´m quite new to clojure so excuse me if I don´t see a obviouse point
09:23	joegallo	macros only work with the code that's sitting there in front of you
09:24	joegallo	i would be pretty surprised if somebody wrote a big enough and for it to blow the stack
09:24	clgv	thoefer: it is a macro hence it consumes no stack but is expanded on compile time
09:25	clgv	&(-> '(and a b c d) macroexpand-1 pprint)
09:25	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: pprint in this context
09:25	clgv	&(-> '(and a b c d) macroexpand-1)
09:25	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [and__3468__auto__ a] (if and__3468__auto__ (clojure.core/and b c d) and__3468__auto__))
09:25	clgv	&(-> '(and a b c d) macroexpand-1 macroexpand-1)
09:25	lazybot	⇒ (let* [and__3468__auto__ a] (if and__3468__auto__ (clojure.core/and b c d) and__3468__auto__))
09:25	clgv	&(-> '(and a b c d) macroexpand-1 macroexpand-1 macroexpand-1)
09:25	lazybot	⇒ (let* [and__3468__auto__ a] (if and__3468__auto__ (clojure.core/and b c d) and__3468__auto__))
09:26	clgv	humm I would have like macroexpand to expand the inner as well for demonstration ;)
09:26	chouser	clgv: this is a common desire
09:26	thoefer	thanks guys I think I see your points!
09:27	chouser	clgv: there are bits of code that simulate that, but it a form with inner macros expanded never actually exists in memory while the Clojure compiler is running, so such an expansion is a bit of a lie
09:29	clgv	chouser: huh? the compiler has hidden magic ways of dealing with macros?
09:29	chouser	well, they're not magic, and they're no more hidden than everything else the complier does... but other than that, yeah. :-)
09:31	clgv	I never checked the jvm source of macro handling... ;)
09:31	chouser	the compiler transforms the forms you give it into a new tree of data that has a lot more information about each form. The shape of this analysis tree is roughly the same as what was read, but each node looks very different.
09:32	clgv	ok, so macroexpands aim is to have a user friendly look at macroexpansion?
09:32	chouser	macroexpansion happens as nearly the first step of analyzing a form, and only after the analysis for that form is complete are the children macroexpanded as needed.
09:32	clgv	ok
09:33	chouser	well, the macroexpand you can call is the same one the compiler uses. the very one.
09:33	chouser	but then more work is done on it before the kids are expanded.
09:33	chouser	So there's never an expanded outer form with expanded inner forms all put together at once.
09:33	thoefer	how would you guys implement a basic binary search tree in clojure? I tried but the absence of state, even with atoms, refs etc. is quite new to me. Just a basic outline of the implementation would help enormously...
09:34	clgv	thoefer: I would use a sorted set that should be very similar ;)
09:34	chouser	thoefer: you're doing this as a learning experience? if not, just use a sorted map or set
09:34	chouser	sorted-map and sorted-set are red/black binary trees inside.
09:35	thoefer	do I have to rebuild the tree everytime I add a new node? It´s some kind of evaluation for a smaller university project :)
09:35	chouser	evaluation of you or the language?
09:35	fdaoud	:D
09:35	thoefer	both :)
09:36	Blafasel	is there a way to have something like (fn [&varargs] ..) in the #() form? Is there a magic % way?
09:36	chouser	Blafasel: %&
09:37	Blafasel	,(#(println %&) [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
09:37	chouser	thoefer: so I still don't understand if you want to write your own code to do binary tree stuff, or if you're wanting to understand sorted-map better.
09:37	clgv	black magic O.O
09:37	clojurebot	([1 2 3] [4 5 6])
09:37	Blafasel	Ah..
09:40	thoefer	chouser: I want to implement my own binary search tree, maybe my problem can be reduced to the question if I have to rebuild the entire tree when I add a new node?!
09:42	chouser	thoefer: ah, yes you'll need to recreate all the nodes in the path from the root to the node you're adding.
09:42	thoefer	chouser: that sounds really expensive... anyway thanks!
09:42	clojurebot	chouser: it's tougher with guards (arbitrary tests), where grouping is less clear. I need to work that out still.
09:43	kzar	Can you def a variable in another namespace? like (def some-other.namespace/whatever 42)
09:43	chouser	this is why the most commonly used collections in Clojure are not binary
09:43	chouser	thoefer: they have up to 32 children per node so that trees are very shallow and not so many nodes need to be recreated for changes
09:44	chouser	thoefer: also transients allow batches of changes to be made without creating new intermediate nodes
09:44	thoefer	ok, that´s a reasonable optimization
09:45	chouser	thoefer: but yes, it is both less fast and more complicated than a mutable tree. But the benefits in code simplicity and clarity are almost always more than worth it.
09:45	thoefer	will need to read more about transients :)
09:45	chouser	kzar: no, not without actually switching to that namespace. why do you think you want to?
09:45	chouser	:-)
09:46	kzar	chouser: Why do you think I think I want to?
09:46	kzar	heh
09:46	kzar	I'm using noir and I want to save the mode like :dev / :prod in another namespace so I can check it later
09:47	thoefer	chouser: thanks a lot for your help! making a coffee break now... :)
09:47	bhenry	kzar def an atom in that namespace and use it in the one that defines :dev / :prod
09:48	bhenry	maybe?
10:05	pandeiro	is there any example online of using ClojureScript's clojure.browser.net xhr wrapper? I'm new to Clojure and don't get what I am supposed to do with the IConnection protocol to use it
10:43	chrido	hi, i have a simple problem: i have a set which i get from the database in this form ({:id "someid", :classification 2} {:id "2ndid", :classification 3})
10:44	chrido	for usage in my rest of clojure i want to map it to ({:id "someid", :classification "urgent"} {:id "2ndid", :classification "very urgent"})
10:45	chrido	so map 2=> "urgent" and 3 => "very urgent"
10:46	chrido	there must be something short to do this without if/else...
10:46	clgv	chrido: use a self-written function urgency on those maps via (update-in m [:classification] urgency) and urgency can be implemented via case
10:46	clgv	or you can use a map insteady of that function
10:47	clgv	a map like: (update-in m [:classification] {2 "urgent", 3 "very urgent"})
10:47	raek	(def classifications {2 "urgent", 3 "very urgent"}) (defn convert-entry [entry] (update-in entry [:classification] classifications)) (defn convert-entries [entries] (map convert-entry entries))
10:48	chrido	raek, clgv: thanks a lot! wasn't aware of update-in
10:48	cark	,(let [values {2 :urgent 3 :very}] (map #(update-in % [:classification] values) [{:classification 2} {:classification 3}]))
10:48	clojurebot	({:classification :urgent} {:classification :very})
10:49	raek	clgv: you beat me to it ;)
10:50	chrido	can it be done shorter? ;)
10:50	chrido	cark: thanks!
10:50	clgv	chrido: yeah, you can store it in the database ;)
10:51	raek	(for [m entries] (update-in m [:classification] {2 "urgent", 3 "very urgent"}))
10:51	raek	I prefer 'for' in this case
10:51	chrido	clgv: or create a view :D
10:51	cark	raek : why ?
10:52	raek	you get less of a gap between m and entries in the code
10:52	Blafasel	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
10:52	Blafasel	oops :)
10:52	raek	at least it looks better for bodies larger than one line
10:53	cark	raek: i don't know, map is so pervasive, it should be very readable
10:58	clgv	cark: define a function or macro that expands to the map
10:58	clgv	but I dont think it gets more readable then
11:47	Blafasel	... 1025 lines of stacktrace? Seriously? For a 20 line file?
11:49	stuarthalloway	What's the correlation between file size and stack trace size? Aren't they orthogonal?
11:49	Blafasel	Sure.. I guess I would find 1025 excessive in any case.
11:51	stuarthalloway	What's excessive: Existence, or reporting?
11:52	stuarthalloway	1.3 repl reports 1st 10 lines, while providing access to the rest if you care
11:57	Blafasel	I just ran a couple of (probably stupid) things via java <putOptionsHere> my.clj which outputs everything. I didn't use the repl for this to check if I can get line numbers in error messages.
12:26	PPPaul	how do i kill a long running function in clojure?
12:26	PPPaul	via slime emacs
12:35	robermann_	C-c C-c
12:38	robermann_	bye
12:55	Blafasel	Can someone help me understand what exactly happens if I declare something as (fn [[& as]] ..) vs. (fn [& as] ..) ?
12:57	joegallo	,((fn [& xs] (prn xs)) 1 2 3)
12:57	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
12:57	joegallo	,((fn [[& xs]] (prn xs)) [1 2 3])
12:57	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
12:58	joegallo	the first will take many arguments and turn them into a seq, called xs
12:58	pcavs	Blafasel: The first [[& as]] is destructuring the first argument as a rest argument. The second is actually taking only a rest argument.
12:58	pcavs	,((fn [&as] as) (range 10))
12:58	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: as in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
12:59	joegallo	,((fn [xs] (prn xs)) [1 2 3])
12:59	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
12:59	pcavs	,((fn [&as] as) (range 10)))
12:59	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: as in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
12:59	pcavs	,((fn [& as] as) (range 10)))
12:59	clojurebot	((0 1 2 3 4 ...))
13:00	pcavs	,((fn [[& as]] as) (range 10)))
13:00	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
13:01	Blafasel	pcavs: joegallo: Thanks.
13:12	srid	in clojurescript, (.foo o) compiles to o.foo; but foo is a function (prototype method), and I had to write (.foo o nil) to force compile it to o.foo(); is this a bug?
13:13	chouser	srid: it is not a bug.
13:13	srid	(.bar o 234) works, and .bar always takes that one argument.
13:14	chouser	On th JVM, o.foo can only be an method or field. You can't get the method as a "value"
13:14	chouser	so there's no ambiguity. This isn't true in javascript, so you have to resolve the amibuity for Clojure.
13:15	chouser	Clojure has an older interop syntax that helps out here.
13:15	chouser	(. o bar) for fields, (. o bar (arg1 arg2)) for a method call, and just (.o bar ()) for a method call with no args
13:15	srid	I also see this syntax (. o (bar)) which does o.bar()
13:16	chouser	(.bar o null) is actually doing o.bar(null), which is almost always the same as o.bar()
13:16	chouser	but if bar were to check its arguments.length, it could tell you passed a null arg, so (. o bar ()) is safer.
13:17	ibdknox	I find (. o (bar arg1 arg2)) clearer, but I think that's just personal preference
13:17	duck1123	a
13:18	chouser	oh, am I mistaken? maybe my examples were wrong.
13:18	srid	ibdknox: does -> work with that form? eg: (-> o (foo arg1) (bar arg2 arg3))
13:18	ibdknox	no
13:18	srid	shame
13:18	ibdknox	doto will, though... I think
13:18	srid	but i want to call bar on the object returned o.foo
13:19	ibdknox	..
13:19	chouser	heh.
13:19	ibdknox	(.. o (foo arg1) (bar arg2 arg3))
13:19	ibdknox	,(doc ..)
13:19	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); form => fieldName-symbol or (instanceMethodName-symbol args*) Expands into a member access (.) of the first member on the first argument, followed by the next member on the result, etc. For instance: (.. System (getProperties) (get \"os.name\")) expands to: (. (. System (getProperties)) (get \"os.name\")) but is easier to write, read, and understand."
13:20	ibdknox	chouser: are you sure that (. foo bar ()) doesn't pass an empty list as the first arg?
13:20	zippy314	Hi, can anybody point to instructions (or tell me) on how, in my lein project.clj, to refer to my own fork of github project that's a dependency normally on clojars? I feel like the answer should be really straight-forward, but haven't been able to figure it out. Thanks.
13:21	chouser	srid, ibdknox: I think I was wrong in my examples.
13:21	chouser	should be (. o (bar arg1 arg2)) and (. o (bar))
13:21	ibdknox	k
13:21	srid	ibdknox: .. is exactly what I need.
13:21	ibdknox	I know those word
13:21	ibdknox	work*
13:21	ibdknox	without caveat
13:21	chouser	I always disliked that syntax as was happy we got (.foo bar) and (Foo/bar)
13:21	chouser	alas
13:22	ibdknox	haha
13:22	ibdknox	back again!
13:22	srid	chouser: me too
13:22	technomancy	zippy314: look in the readme for the section on "checkout dependencies"
13:22	srid	((.foo bar))?
13:22	ibdknox	don't do that
13:22	chouser	yeah, that's something else again
13:22	chouser	bar will see a "this" of null
13:22	srid	javascript, oh my!
13:25	PPPaul	if i spin up an infinite amount of futures (one a second or something) will i run into any problems? (i'm waiting for each one to finish before i start a new one, i know it's not really a good use of a future)
13:25	technomancy	PPPaul: it's fine as long as you have infinite hardware
13:25	PPPaul	oh
13:26	PPPaul	should i be reusing a future or something?
13:26	hiredman	it's fine
13:26	technomancy	I'm just messing with you
13:26	PPPaul	:P
13:26	technomancy	they'll use a thread pool
13:26	zippy314	technomancy: I don't quite understand. You mean if I clone my fork, and symlink that clone into myproject/checkouts then lein will include the files from that directory as if I had named them as a dependency?
13:26	hiredman	futures will be garbage collected when you are done with them
13:26	technomancy	zippy314: right
13:26	hiredman	technomancy: I don't think checkout deps are what he wants
13:26	PPPaul	cool, that's what i was hoping for. just wondering if i had to do any cleanup
13:27	zippy314	technomancy: sweet! Thanks!
13:27	technomancy	zippy314: but if you want it to be usable by others you should consider a clojars-hosted fork
13:27	technomancy	as hiredman alludes to
13:27	chouser	PPPaul: you'll have to shutdown the agent pools to exit cleanly, but that's all. see (shutdown-agents)
13:27	technomancy	org.clojars.zippy312/mylib
13:28	PPPaul	i'm not really sure what that means
13:28	zippy314	technomancy: Nah, this is only because the main fork hasn't pulled a feature I need yet. Have you considered adding a way in lein just to be able to point directly to a git repo?
13:29	technomancy	zippy314: checkout deps should work with submodules
13:29	PPPaul	i want my program to run forever, making futures forever... so i don't think i'll be calling shutdown agents
13:30	technomancy	zippy314: without using submodules you should think through the fact that no one else working on the project will have the checkout deps set up for them
13:30	technomancy	so it should be able to work from the clojars version as well to play nicely with others
13:32	zippy314	technomancy: No, I was thinking just in general that it would be nice simply to be able to put in a the url of a git repo of a project (instead of a repository hosted name) and have lein pull down that repo, build it right in the checkouts directory.
13:38	arohner	did to-byte-array make it into new-contrib?
13:44	cemerick	Google Closure seems to insist on defining some top-level functions even if the code it's optimizing is entirely contained within a single closure. Has anyone noticed this / needed to get around this?
13:45	chouser	cemerick: haven't noticed, no.
13:46	chouser	cemerick: a friend of mine (and until recently a co-worker) is actively looking at ClojureScript for CouchDB as well
13:46	cemerick	I've got views and such working just fine
13:47	chouser	ok, so you may be ahead of where he is.
13:47	cemerick	They're tightening up what's acceptable in a view function definition in 1.2 though — must be a single expression
13:47	cemerick	I can wrap what cljs produces with (function () { … })(), but gclosure puts a bunch of top-level `function B () { …}` sorts of definitions when it optimizes.
13:48	hiredman	λ lifting I imagine
13:48	cemerick	The bottom line being, it works, will work even in couch 1.2 with simple optimizations, but that a lot of code in a view fn. :-P
13:49	cemerick	hiredman: right; there may be an option for controlling that in gclosure's API, but I haven't gone spelunking yet.
13:50	cemerick	It has a functionally top-level scope already though, so I don't see the utility of defining those fns outside of it.
13:50	cemerick	(since you're supposed to give the compiler all the js you're optimizing anyway)
13:50	hiredman	good point
13:50	hiredman	huh
13:51	cemerick	I'll dink around. Got to get the deck ready for tonight. I'll probably msg the dev list with my set of demands^H^H^H^H^H issues next week.
13:52	jodaro	quick lein question: is there project metadata available, i.e. does the project's version get stashed into a var somehwere?
13:53	jodaro	my use case is to have the project version as part of the user-agent string in a restful api client
13:53	jodaro	and not have to remember to update it in > 1 place
13:55	jodaro	actually i'm not even sure how that would work
13:55	jodaro	but
14:01	gfredericks	jodaro: my limited knowledge doubts it
14:01	technomancy	jodaro: it's set as a system property
14:01	technomancy	(System/getProperty "myproject.version")
14:02	jodaro	ahh
14:02	jodaro	that makes sense
14:03	gfredericks	does anybody know what an unbound fn is? I'm trying to call a clojure function from java via RT.var(...)
14:03	gfredericks	and getting an exception after casting to IFn
14:03	gfredericks	well I mean the casting works fine, the exception comes from fn.call()
14:04	hiredman	the namespace the var is in isn't loaded
14:04	hiredman	(the var hasn't been initialized)
14:04	gfredericks	hiredman: ah ha
14:04	gfredericks	hiredman: so I gotta require it somehow
14:10	gfredericks	alright, does anybody know how to load a namespace from RT? Do a gotta load a "(require ...)" string?
14:14	cemerick	gfredericks: RT.var("clojure.core", "require").invoke(…)
14:15	cemerick	Java Swing method names and Clojure internals, these are the things I remember. :-P
14:15	gfredericks	cemerick: not sure why I didn't think of that. Quite thanks.
14:17	gfredericks	I'm curious why Var#invoke exists. I assume it's some kind of optimization, but not sure what for.
14:18	hiredman	the opposite, it just makes things easier
14:19	gfredericks	my intuition fails me again!
14:21	gfredericks	(Symbol/create "foo")
14:21	gfredericks	whoops not my repl
14:27	devth	when i use a (future) it makes it very hard to debug anything since exceptions inside the future call aren't relayed back to the repl. is there a way to peer inside and see if there are exceptions?
14:29	hiredman	(try … (catch Throwable t (.printStacktrace t)))
14:29	hiredman	or use clojure.tools.logging
14:30	devth	hiredman: thanks, i'll try that.
14:50	dafra	hi there
14:50	dafra	how to require some clojurecode from clojurescript ?
14:52	zerokarmaleft	what does RT stand for in clojure.lang.RT? reader types?
14:52	technomancy	runtime
15:01	dafra	anybody knows how to require or use clojure code from clojurescript ?
15:01	ibdknox	add :require or :use to your ns decl
15:02	dafra	i didnt manage to :require nor :use .clj from .cljs
15:02	dafra	i have to duplicate the file
15:02	ibdknox	ah sorry
15:02	ibdknox	misread
15:02	ibdknox	you can't yet
15:02	dafra	i hope its planned
15:03	ibdknox	it's on the list
15:04	dafra	wher's that list ?
15:06	ibdknox	I don't believe there's a physical list. I meant more metaphorically that it's on the minds of those working on it
15:07	Raynes	It's in my sock drawer, underneath my internets.
15:07	dafra	just looked at the clojurescript jira, and no ticket there
15:07	ibdknox	Raynes, good place for it really
15:08	ibdknox	dafra, feel free to add one, but its been discussed a fair amount both here and on the clojure-dev mailing list
15:08	ibdknox	how exactly it should be done hasn't been decided
15:08	dafra	ibdknox: googling for clojurescript clojure require is of little help
15:09	dafra	ibdknox: google still barely aware of clojurescript
15:12	gfredericks	since duck-streams is deprecated, is there an append-spit anywhere, or do I have to make my own?
15:13	ibdknox	gfredericks, I don't think it made it anywhere
15:13	gfredericks	ibdknox: :/ oh well
15:15	amalloy	ibdknox: really, it's planned? i thought rich's whole thing was that you can't easily "reuse" clj code in cljs and so you shouldn't try
15:16	ibdknox	amalloy: I can't remember which thread brought it back up, but rich didn't comment on it
15:16	ibdknox	Dnolen and I have been going back and forth on how to do it some
15:16	ibdknox	I see no reason why we can't share algorithmic code
15:17	gfredericks	dnolen made his match library work for both, right?
15:17	ibdknox	yes
15:17	dafra	you usually duplicate some controls in server and client
15:17	dnolen	amalloy: rhickey was not against the idea of reuse between Clojure/ClojureScript. There's a ticket assigned to him. I don't expect rapid movement on it though since a solutions needs to be carefully considered as it will change Clojure.
15:18	ibdknox	dnolen, I'm still not convinced it has to change Clojure. What's the forcing function there?
15:18	dnolen	macro-centric stuff (which is a lot of what I do) of course is easy to port. library stuff much more challenging.
15:18	dafra	dnolen: jsut parse clj file as cljs
15:19	dafra	we can have a polyglot subset
15:19	ibdknox	well, you'd want meta-data saying it should be parsed as such, but yes
15:19	gfredericks	foo_bar.clj[s]
15:19	ibdknox	lol
15:20	dafra	ibdknox: why is this metadata needed ?
15:20	dafra	ibdknox: simple functions work the same in both languages
15:20	ibdknox	dafra, why parse a bunch of files that are guaranteed not to work?
15:21	ibdknox	dafra, it should be an explicit choice
15:21	dnolen	there subtle issues around the fact that types don't map cleanly, nor interfaces, nor protocols.
15:21	dafra	ibdknox: maybe *.clp for polyglot files
15:21	ibdknox	supporting both cljs and clj from a single file will require deliberate care
15:21	cemerick	This seems like not-a-problem, fundamentally.
15:22	ibdknox	cemerick, doing it? or needing it?
15:22	cemerick	worrying about portability
15:22	cemerick	People that need it (library authors) can take care when possible.
15:23	cemerick	Especially at this early stage, thinking about how to maximize portability seems like a waste.
15:23	gfredericks	cemerick: you don't think it'd be common in app code? e.g., user data validation?
15:23	ibdknox	I agree, I just want it to work :)
15:24	dafra	same here
15:24	ibdknox	really it's probably a couple line change in the cljs compiler to enable such a thing
15:24	ibdknox	pick up *.clj files, if their ns decl doesn't have :cljs-compat or something in it, move on
15:24	cemerick	gfredericks: common? Probably not. You need to have zero interop. That takes a lot of code off the table.
15:25	dafra	dnolen: how are protocol different ?
15:25	ibdknox	cemerick, I have a number of things that I would definitely factor into code to be used in both places
15:25	dnolen	dafra: ClojureScript has protocols early on, Clojure relies on a lot of interfaces.
15:25	cemerick	ibdknox: you're a library author ;-)
15:25	ibdknox	cemerick, touche
15:25	ibdknox	lol
15:25	dafra	dnolen: for new code we can use protocols for both
15:26	ibdknox	cemerick, templates are a good example, outside of lib code though
15:26	cemerick	I'm just saying, it's a rat's nest of little details. There's nothing to gain from anyone working on the problem too hard (or doing anything 'simple' and thereby guaranteeing a constant stream of "it doesn't work" messages on the list).
15:26	ibdknox	cemerick, with my impl of hiccup in pinot, they can be used transparently from client or server
15:26	cemerick	clojure : cljs :: clojure : ClojureCLR, IMO
15:27	dnolen	cemerick: I'm skeptical, as people beging to realize that ClojureScript is NOT "Clojure Light" - they'll want some level of interoperability.
15:27	cemerick	ibdknox: symlink to .cljs?
15:28	ibdknox	hah, now I feel dumb
15:28	gfredericks	dnolen: that makes more sense with s/beging/begin/ than with s/beging/begging/ :)
15:28	kzar	ibdknox: Is there a way to filter a route variable and store the result of running the filtering function? Say if I want to query the database to see if a post exists before I decide if the route's valid, but I want to save the result in the case that it is, so I can display it.
15:28	cemerick	dnolen: ClojureCLR is certainly not 'clojure light'; all the same issues apply
15:28	dnolen	cemerick: what about a common graphics library that can target Java surfaces and the browser
15:28	ibdknox	kzar, just do that in the body using a when-let
15:29	dnolen	cemerick: not even remotely the same. JS is the most widely deployed language in the entire world except for C.
15:29	dnolen	ClojureCLR has a low adoption ceiling, ClojureScript not so much.
15:29	cemerick	That doesn't speak to the portability challenges.
15:29	ibdknox	kzar, if the handler returns nil, it's the same as it not being valid
15:29	hiredman	working on backend data processing is great, I don't have to care about any of this
15:29	cemerick	hiredman: seconded
15:29	kzar	ibdknox: Ah, cool thanks
15:30	cemerick	says the fool talking about clojurescript views in couch
15:30	ibdknox	cemerick, :p
15:31	dnolen	cemerick: macro-centric stuff has shown me how small the differences really. But all my workarounds are very ad-hoc.
15:31	cemerick	dnolen: to clarify, I think portability would be great, I just don't think anyone really knows how to do it right yet. And cljs will almost surely be the first target for whatever solutions are devised.
15:31	dnolen	cemerick: not disagreeing there's no reason to rush into a solution.
15:31	gfredericks	dnolen: doing macros kind of sidesteps any runtime differences, doesn't it?
15:31	cemerick	Then let's just get a drink.
15:32	gfredericks	not sidesteps, but doesn't come into contact with
15:32	cemerick	dnolen: have you twiddled with gclosure's compiler options any?
15:32	dnolen	gfredericks: not entirely. for example try/catch in Clojure / ClojureScript not the same.
15:32	gfredericks	ah ha
15:32	dnolen	cemerick: no not much.
15:32	hiredman	and macros themselves are different
15:32	hiredman	you have to load macros differently in clojurescript
15:33	dafra	dnolen: how is try/catch different ?
15:34	dnolen	dafra: in JS you just catch the error and bind it to a name, in Java you have to specify the exception type.
15:35	dafra	dnolen: i've read about some plan to replace exceptions with default handlers, dont know if its done alreasy
15:36	dafra	already, certainly not easy
15:36	dnolen	cemerick: any other early ClojureScript impressions?
15:37	wink	what? no catch Throwable e? ;)
15:37	dnolen	dafra: yeah I'm not sure where the Clojure exception stuff is headed.
15:43	TimMc	It would be nice to have an alternate catch (with no specification of exception type) in Clojure so that code could be compatible.
15:43	gfredericks	(inc TimMc)
15:43	lazybot	⟹ 3
15:48	srid	is there a primitive to iterate items in serious of collections that may have overlapping items? I can't use (seq (conj coll1 coll2 ...)) here because when conj'ing a map, i'll lose duplicate elements
15:48	srid	series
15:49	hiredman	serious?
15:49	brehaut	javascripts try/catch doesn't just have to bind a name; the catch clause can have a guard expression too
15:49	hiredman	well, conj won't give you a series of collections anyway
15:49	amalloy	mapcat?
15:49	amalloy	or just concat? it's not clear what you want
15:51	srid	amalloy: concat works. trying to solve conj
15:51	srid	s/conj/http://www.4clojure.com/problem/69/
16:03	PPPaul	how do i use (binding []) to have a threat print to the slime console?
16:05	leafw	hi. Where can one find the jar for the monads library that used to be in clojure-contrib.jar ?
16:06	leafw	or, what does one write in the project.clj from lein?
16:08	brehaut	leafw: the new algo.monads is [org.clojure/algo.monads "0.1.1-SNAPSHOT"] and you need to also add :repositories {"sonatype-snapshots" "https://oss.sonatype.org/content/repositories/snapshots/"} to your project.clj to get leon to search the snapshots repo
16:10	leafw	thanks brehaut, that helped lots. Is there any webpage where this is explained, or one has just to find out here?
16:10	brehaut	leafw: no idea actually; i figured it out by watching IRC for a few days and piecing things together
16:11	brehaut	leafw: remember to switch your use or require stuff to clojure.algo.monads too
16:11	leafw	indeed, thanks
16:11	zerokarmaleft	leafw: for the library itself? https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads has tutorial links
16:11	leafw	thanks zerokarmaleft
16:12	zerokarmaleft	i imagine they were written pre-1.3, though
16:12	brehaut	leafw: out of curiosity, what are you using it for?
16:12	srid	amalloy: through #128 I discovered that maps can take a 2nd argument.
16:12	zerokarmaleft	brehaut: how'd you figure out where the jar was hosted since it's not on clojars?
16:13	leafw	a file text parser, with (def parser-m (state-t maybe-m)) and then defining my own domain language for the parsing.
16:13	brehaut	zerokarmaleft: watching IRC; i think hiredman mentioned something about the snapshot repo
16:13	zerokarmaleft	fair enough
16:13	brehaut	leafw: cool :) before you get to far, you know about fnparse right?
16:13	hiredman	I don mention stuff about things sometimes
16:14	leafw	the github.com/clojure/algo.monads could explain what brehaut knows about lein and the jar ... would help more people than just me
16:14	leafw	brehaut: no, didn't know about fnparse
16:14	leafw	brehaut: I am just adapting existing code to 1.3.0, and the clojure-contrib disappeared.
16:14	hiredman	there are a number of different parsing libraries for clojure
16:14	brehaut	leafw: there also a variety of clj-parsec ports too, but fnparse is the most used parser combinator lib for clj at the moment
16:15	leafw	will definitely checkout fnparse, thanks for the tip
16:15	brehaut	cgrand's parsley sounds interesting too
16:17	leafw	ok, found the jar, back to work. See you all later and thanks for the help.
16:19	leafw	quit
16:22	PPPaul	i want to bind a var used in a future, that is declared outside of the future... i'm trying (binding [varName 0]...) but it's not working in the future
16:22	hiredman	PPPaul: declared?
16:23	hiredman	I suspect var does not mean what you think it does
16:23	cemerick	I guess I need to understand gclosure better: it will 'optimize' "a.someRealName" into "a.L" or whatever. Shouldn't that not happen?
16:24	bpr	cemerick: iirc that won't occur if you "export" the name
16:24	PPPaul	(def varName 100)
16:24	PPPaul	(binding [varName 0] function)
16:25	PPPaul	when the function isn't a future, it works, but in the future it doesn't work
16:25	cemerick	bpr: in that example, `a` is a function argument…
16:25	bpr	oh
16:25	hiredman	PPPaul: what version of clojure?
16:25	cemerick	I suppose that doesn't matter. (aget a "someRealName") is a bummer, tho.
16:25	PPPaul	1.2
16:25	PPPaul	will this be different in 1.3?
16:26	hiredman	vars are not dynamic by default in 1.3
16:26	hiredman	and how are you binding it in the future?
16:26	PPPaul	i'm binding it before calling the future
16:27	technomancy	cemerick: a bit late on the discussion, but this seems relevant re: sharing code across runtimes: http://blog.ianbicking.org/2011/03/30/js-on-server-and-client-is-not-a-big-deal/
16:27	PPPaul	(binding [varName 0] (future ...))
16:27	amalloy	bindings are thread-local
16:27	hiredman	that is not in the future
16:27	technomancy	I think templates are probably one of the few places it makes a lot of sense for app code
16:27	PPPaul	oh
16:27	dnolen	brehaut: good point, though still, different than Java
16:27	PPPaul	how would i force the var to be different in the future, from outside the future?
16:28	amalloy	just...(future (binding ...))
16:28	PPPaul	or is that impossible?
16:28	PPPaul	oh
16:28	PPPaul	what if that future makes more futures?
16:28	amalloy	as of 1.3 they're a little bit less thread-local so your original version would probably work, but this is clearer
16:28	cemerick	technomancy: yeah, and honest-to-goodness algorithmic stuff e.g. core.logic
16:28	amalloy	PPPaul: then you're probably abusing futures :P
16:28	PPPaul	^_^
16:29	PPPaul	i'll try 1.3 first
16:31	PPPaul	oh, my -main doesn't work anymore in clojure 1.3
16:32	PPPaul	oh shit, my deps don't work in clojure 1.3
16:32	PPPaul	:(
16:33	amalloy	PPPaul: this is god telling you not to abuse futures and bindings
16:34	Bronsa	what if PPPaul is atheist :P
16:34	gtrak	anybody think about using clojurescript with XUL or something for desktop apps yet?
16:35	arkh	gtrak: I've thought about it ; ) I was looking at prism, tho
16:35	rbranson	make clojurescript generate actionscript, use adobe air #winning
16:37	gtrak	looks neat
16:37	gtrak	rbranson, there is las3r
16:38	gtrak	i know some flex already, actually clojure there would be pretty sweet
16:40	gtrak	what about haxe?
16:52	dabd	I'd like to use a Java lib that defines an interface that I need to implement. what is the best way? reify?
16:59	amalloy	yes
16:59	amalloy	i mean, defrecord or deftype may be best in some circumstances, but reify is a generally-useful tool for this
16:59	arohner	dabd: http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
17:00	dabd	arohner:ty
17:02	dabd	I don't want to define a new type I just need to implement an interface so I am not sure if reify or proxy should be used. I'd like to implement this interface http://commons.apache.org/math/apidocs/org/apache/commons/math/analysis/UnivariateRealFunction.html
17:11	PPPaul	when i do (future (binding [var val] f)) i get a thread error
17:12	hiredman	"thread error"
17:14	PPPaul	oh shit, it's working now
17:14	PPPaul	:(
17:28	PPPaul	would someone be able to help me with my binding problem?
17:29	amalloy	dabd: you do want to define a type, because you need to implement an interface, which java requires types for
17:29	amalloy	but proxy should be used only when reify isn't enough
17:30	dabd	amalloy: yeah it looks like I need proxy
17:30	amalloy	wth, why?
17:30	amalloy	you definitely do not need proxy to implement some interface
17:30	dabd	amalloy: bc I need to pass an instance of the implemented class
17:31	amalloy	&(.size (reify java.util.Collection (size [this] 10)))
17:31	lazybot	⇒ 10
17:31	amalloy	dabd: reify gives you an instance, that's the whole point
17:32	dabd	amalloy: ok then reify should do it
17:33	dnolen	PPPaul: if you don't get an answer here, you can always ask on the mailing list as well.
17:35	cemerick	dnolen: you asked before, but I didn't answer: my bottom line impression of clojurescript right now is, it's fabulous as long as you know where the potholes are. The biggest potholes being around interop.
17:35	cemerick	i.e. the map / object / array strangeness has tagged me many, many times so far.
17:36	melipone	how do I convert a string to a keyword? for example "D" to :d ?
17:37	dabd	amalloy: with proxy I don't get any errors but with reify this: (reify org.apache.commons.math.analysis.UnivariateRealFunction (value [x] x)) gives me an error: Can't define method not in interfaces: value
17:37	amalloy	(value [this x] x)
17:37	cemerick	,(-> "D" .toLowerCase keyword)
17:37	clojurebot	:d
17:37	cemerick	melipone: ^
17:37	melipone	thnaks!
17:37	dabd	amalloy: the method value is in the interface http://commons.apache.org/math/api-2.0/index.html
17:37	srid	is there a primitive that does negation of a function? #(not (p %))
17:37	cemerick	srid: complement
17:38	dnolen	cemerick: yeah the map / object / array thing didn't bother me much since I was expecting that.
17:38	pjstadig	,(doc complement)
17:38	clojurebot	"([f]); Takes a fn f and returns a fn that takes the same arguments as f, has the same effects, if any, and returns the opposite truth value."
17:38	amalloy	dabd: see my previous answer
17:38	dnolen	cemerick: I've found interop less of an issue but I'm not trying to use it for CouchDB views either.
17:38	dabd	amalloy: ok I need the 'this'
17:39	cemerick	There's nothing couchdb-specific about it, I don't think.
17:39	dnolen	cemerick: excepts that views are meant to be small snippets of JS. And Clojure brings along a huge API.
17:39	amalloy	proxy is an older construct; since then all the "type-oriented" functions require an explicit this parameter
17:39	cemerick	e.g. I needed to call a fn with a javascript array. Figuring out (apply array [1 2 3]) took 60 seconds, but it's unfortunate that that's the case.
17:40	cemerick	dnolen: That's an implementation detail. ;-)
17:40	dnolen	cemerick: what's the alternative? (array example)
17:41	dnolen	cemerick: Perhaps. Not sure how to get around it tho, calling seq pulls in a lot of code.
17:41	dnolen	and by a lot of code - not for scripting or browser stuff - just CouchDB views.
17:42	cemerick	re: arrays, there may not be an alternative. I've not looked at core.cljs in any seriousness yet.
17:43	cemerick	The fact that e.g. cljs vectors are js objects just makes for a confusing state at first — at least, compared to the jvm, where having a wrong type usually fails faster.
17:43	cemerick	My overfamiliarity with Java stuff probably accentuates that issue for me, though.
17:44	cemerick	dnolen: "lots of code" isn't really a serious problem for couch views. spidermonkey slurps it all in and keeps chugging away.
17:45	cemerick	I can imagine hitting some implementation-specific limit on code size somewhere (esp. in nonstandard couch builds perhaps), but it hasn't happened yet.
17:45	dnolen	cemerick: well, glad you're digging in, curious to see where this stuff goes.
18:19	prokii	I am trying to embed a repl in my gui so I can interact with the running program. But I am having trouble..
18:21	prokii	I have an agent in one of the namespaces which my gui watches.. but when I use send to update the agent it returns the agent w/o the update.
18:27	amalloy	that's what agents do. they are asynchronous - the change you send can happen anytime on another thread
18:27	prokii	but the gui never updates..
18:28	prokii	it works when I send to the agent through a slime conection
18:41	jli	no one should talk about jline anymore
18:42	jli	so I stop getting false alerts
18:45	hiredman	.win 11
18:49	srid	i seem to be able to access functions a in cljs file even without declaring them with ^:export. what is the point of export, then?
18:51	dnolen	srid: are you compiling w/ advanced optimizations?
19:09	sritchie	,(flatten {:1 2 :3 4})
19:09	clojurebot	()
19:10	sritchie	is that the expected behaviour?
19:10	hiredman	,:1
19:10	clojurebot	:1
19:11	sritchie	that's in 1.3.0
19:11	hiredman	,(doc flatten)
19:11	clojurebot	"([x]); Takes any nested combination of sequential things (lists, vectors, etc.) and returns their contents as a single, flat sequence. (flatten nil) returns nil."
19:11	hiredman	^- "...sequential things..."
19:12	sritchie	,(for [[k v] {:1 2 :3 4}] k)
19:12	clojurebot	(:1 :3)
19:12	hiredman	maps are not sequential
19:13	hiredman	,(flatten (seq {1 2 3 4}))
19:13	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
19:13	sritchie	true, good point
19:13	sritchie	,(flatten #{1 2 3})
19:13	clojurebot	()
19:13	hiredman	also not sequential
19:13	sritchie	yeah, just clarifying for myself
19:13	sritchie	I was just surprised that it returned an empty sequence
19:15	no_mind	What is the best way to run compile on a namespace ? I want to do this during build time.
19:15	hiredman	lein compile
19:15	hiredman	(go read the docs)
19:15	no_mind	will this not compile all namespaces ?
19:16	hiredman	^-
19:16	khaliG	hiredman, except the array-map? :P
19:21	sritchie	,(sequential? (array-map :1 2 :3 4))
19:21	clojurebot	false
19:22	hiredman	58.259 hiredman maps are not sequential
19:23	technomancy	no_mind: looks like the docstring fails to mention you can do lein compile :all
19:23	khaliG	wrap it in seq
19:23	sritchie	apply concat's fine for me
19:23	sritchie	,(apply concat {:1 2 :3 4})
19:23	clojurebot	(:1 2 :3 4)
19:34	eanxgeek	ping clojure trying to build a package w/ lein on Mac OS X lion and am getting java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: clojars (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
19:34	_khaliG	,(sequential? (seq (array-map :1 2 :3 4)))
19:34	clojurebot	true
19:34	eanxgeek	I am new to clojure and this is my first attempt at doing this on Mac
19:35	technomancy	eanxgeek: probably something wrong with the :repositories key in project.clj
19:37	eanxgeek	technomancy: this project.clj someone else wrote but looks good, :repositories {"clojars" {:url "http://clojars.org/repo" :snapshots {:update :always}}}
19:38	technomancy	eanxgeek: that's going to conflict with the defaults
19:39	technomancy	either remove it or add :omit-default-repositories and add central to your list
19:40	eanxgeek	technomancy: ok I commented out the lines with ;;
19:40	eanxgeek	and now get a java.lang.Exception: EOF
19:41	technomancy	comment out the whole map
19:46	eanxgeek	technomancy: ok as I mentioned I'm very new to this, if I wanted to go the other route, so as to do minimal damage to the project.clj how would I specify the :omit-default-repositories and add central?
19:47	eanxgeek	I tried doing :omit-default-repositories under :repositories
19:47	eanxgeek	but not sure how or where to specify central
19:48	gary_poster	Hi. I don't understand something. I can give a type hint in defrecord for float (and other things) but not keyword. Why not? This is 1.3.0. Here's my example in the REPL:
19:48	technomancy	something like this http://p.hagelb.org/project.clj.html
19:49	eanxgeek	technomancy: cool I did get the comments to work too
19:49	eanxgeek	thanks!
19:49	gary_poster	user> (defrecord Test [^float value])
19:49	gary_poster	user.Test
19:49	gary_poster	user> (defrecord Test [^keyword value])
19:49	gary_poster	; Evaluation aborted.
19:49	gary_poster	Unable to resolve classname: keyword
19:49	gary_poster	[Thrown class java.lang.IllegalArgumentException]
19:49	technomancy	eanxgeek: no problem
19:50	gfredericks	gary_poster: use a pastie next time
19:50	hiredman	gary_poster: why do you need to type hint a keyword?
19:50	gary_poster	yeah sorry gfredericks, I thought it was just under the limit. I'll adjust smaller
19:50	hiredman	(short answer: you don't, so don't)
19:50	gary_poster	hiredman, I was doing it for documentation
19:50	hiredman	it's not documentation
19:50	gary_poster	why not?
19:51	hiredman	doncumentation starts with ;;
19:51	gary_poster	It is advertised somewhere or other as a reasonable way to document stuff
19:51	gary_poster	citation eeded I know
19:51	hiredman	so?
19:51	gary_poster	but it seemed reasonable
19:51	hiredman	I don't really care what a blog says somewhere
19:51	gfredericks	gary_poster: irrespective of whether it's a good idea, my guess is that you would have to use ^clojure.lang.Keyword
19:52	gary_poster	so...I liked it...and it seems like it ought to work...and it doesn't. No, this is either Joy of Clojure or Programming Clojure.
19:52	hiredman	and?
19:52	hiredman	(none of that changes the fact that it is not documentation)
19:53	hiredman	for documentation you have comments and doc strings
19:53	gary_poster	hiredman, you seem unnecessarily peeved by me question! I'm learning clojure and using some standard well known books to do so. The advice comes from them
19:53	hiredman	the advice is incorrect
19:53	gary_poster	s/me/my/
19:53	lazybot	<gary_poster> hiredman, you seem unnecessarily peeved by my question! I'm learning clojure and using somy standard well known books to do so. The advice comys from them
19:53	gary_poster	oh bah
19:53	gary_poster	to lazybot
19:54	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards
19:56	gary_poster	ack hiredman, thanks
19:56	hiredman	I peeved because it annoys me to give sound advice to people who are learning the language and then have them say "well, this book/blog post/motivational speaker says to do it like X"
19:58	gfredericks	hiredman: somebody who's learning the language probably doesn't have a good way to compare the merits of you vs a blogger
19:59	hiredman	gfredericks: fine, then why are they so attached to the bad advice they get?
19:59	devn	Is there a way to get the cheat sheet fns that can be called, on, a seq?
19:59	devn	(in clojure.repl or something)
20:01	pjstadig	https://github.com/technomancy/corkscrew
20:02	technomancy	pjstadig: aw man, why you gotta go digging through my closet?
20:02	gfredericks	hiredman: my guess is he's hoping to write code that's in line with what's accepted by the community. Maybe by countering he was testing your confidence. You could have been also a beginner who tends to sound oversure, and upon hearing that JoC says the opposite, backed down.
20:02	_khaliG	where does JoC say that?
20:02	hiredman	ugh, I really hope it's not the JoC
20:02	pjstadig	technomancy: it's all up on github
20:02	hiredman	(but I will admit I never finished my copy of JoC so it could be)
20:03	technomancy	pjstadig: I'd delete it, but there's the small matter of the language highscore board
20:03	gfredericks	_khaliG: no idea, I think gary_poster just mentioned it
20:03	_khaliG	JoC is a horrible book in any case, but i dont remember reading it there :/
20:03	devn	really? you think that?
20:03	devn	I completely disagree.
20:04	devn	JoC is a great book.
20:04	pjstadig	technomancy: hehe you and your gaming of github
20:04	technomancy	pjstadig: we gotta make a comeback after coffeescript passed clojure
20:04	devn	JoC has so much extra knowledge in it that you don't get out of most books.
20:04	technomancy	are you doing your part?
20:04	_khaliG	devn, not on my book shelf :)
20:05	devn	It's a cultural document and a great general programming book, and a great Clojure book.
20:05	pjstadig	i forked die-roboter
20:05	devn	_khaliG: different strokes I suppose. I really enjoyed it.
20:05	technomancy	pjstadig: you got Big Plans?
20:05	gfredericks	hiredman: in any case, my impression is that documentation is an abstract term, distinct from comments and docstrings. type hints are totally capable of documenting the expected types of arguments. Whether or not you think it's a _good_ way to document expected types is more up for discussion, IMO
20:05	pjstadig	looking for projects at capclug
20:06	devn	gfredericks: I tend to agree that there isn't a concrete reason to choose not to use type hints, but I think they can be overused and are sometimes completely inappropriate.
20:06	hiredman	gfredericks: type hints communicate information to the compiler for generating faster code, they are not designed for communicating information to people, documentation is
20:07	_khaliG	devn, i've got SICP, PAIP etc down as great books. I found JoY really hard to understand - i still dont think i've learnt anything out from it. The other book Practical Clojure is excellent though.
20:07	gfredericks	hiredman: they may not be designed to do that, but they certainly can
20:07	devn	gfredericks: I think it is more idiomatic (w/r/t to 3rd party libs and so on), to talk about what you expect and return in the actual :doc meta on the function
20:07	gfredericks	hiredman: I just think "type hints are not documentation" is too strong
20:07	gfredericks	devn: I don't disagree
20:07	devn	but I don't disagree with people using type hints if that's a key area you want to highlight
20:07	hiredman	type hints are bad style, clojure 1.3 requires less type hints to get good performance for a reason
20:07	hiredman	that reason is we don't want them
20:07	gfredericks	hiredman: no disagreement there
20:07	devn	in general though I do not believe in using type hints, but I sometimes use them when I "concretize" some function
20:08	devn	I will say and represent that something is "stable" or "hard" in the program by using a type hint to represent how strict it is
20:08	devn	but I rarely use them in practice. I generally opt for the docstring
20:08	devn	You can say way more there.
20:09	devn	type java.lang.String or something in your docstring instead of in the binding form or something, y'know?
20:09	gfredericks	yep
20:09	devn	at the same time I don't think anyone must do it a certain way, I just tend to think the community feels the style is more in line with what I'm prescribing
20:09	hiredman	be kind, use CharSequence (but I guess that ship has sailed)
20:10	devn	:D
20:10	gfredericks	:)
20:10	devn	just wrap all of your types! (+ (int x) (int y))!
20:10	devn	That's the key to performance!
20:11	devn	:)
20:11	devn	,(time (int (int (int (int (int (int 32)))))))
20:11	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.07 msecs"
20:11	clojurebot	32
20:11	hiredman	actually the key is the compiler inlines (+ x y) into (clojure.lang.Numbers/add x y), and in some cases can inline the call to clojure.lang.Numbers/add as an iadd
20:12	devn	,(time (int 32))
20:12	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.068 msecs"
20:12	clojurebot	32
20:12	devn	hiredman: that's interesting
20:12	devn	I didn't know that.
20:12	gfredericks	hiredman: how can it do that? because 1.3 doesn't let + be dynamic?
20:12	devn	methinks that sounds like a totally reasonable answer
20:12	gfredericks	can't the root binding still be changed?
20:12	devn	gfredericks: ewww
20:13	gfredericks	devn: ??
20:13	lazybot	gfredericks: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
20:13	devn	(alter-var-root fail)
20:13	hiredman	no, actually the compiler has inlined the 2 arity version of + into clojure.lang.Numbers/add since 1.2 at least
20:13	gfredericks	devn: I'm not saying it's fun to change var roots, I'm wondering why the compiler is allowed to inline it semantically
20:13	hiredman	,(doc definline)
20:13	clojurebot	"([name & decl]); Experimental - like defmacro, except defines a named function whose body is the expansion, calls to which may be expanded inline as if it were a macro. Cannot be used with variadic (&) args."
20:13	hiredman	it more or less uses the definline mechanism
20:14	gfredericks	hiredman: so is this an exception to the normal behavior of vars?
20:14	gfredericks	or do I not know how vars work?
20:14	hiredman	yes, that is how definline works, it adds some metadate to the var which the compiler uses for inlining
20:15	hiredman	turning clojure.lang.Number/add into an iadd is a late addition to 1.3
20:15	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/e92978783e1ba7ac0e2617fdabfed576209d7fa4
20:16	hiredman	it's semantically allowed to do it because it makes math fast
20:16	gfredericks	hiredman: what happens if you alter the root of an inlined var?
20:16	hiredman	don't
20:17	gfredericks	weird to have forbidden parts of the language
20:17	hiredman	you'll get different behaviour based on if the compiler determines it can inline or not
20:17	gfredericks	do the other lisps use vars?
20:17	hiredman	similar to alter-var-rooting macros and similar
20:18	hiredman	vars are sort of like dynamic vars from common lisp
20:18	hiredman	(less so in 1.3)
20:20	gfredericks	vars have always seemed weird to me. They're often discussed as a way to achieve thread-local (dynamic-scoped?) values, but at the same time they're so much more mundane than refs/agents/atoms
20:21	gfredericks	and then in 1.3 we change it so by default they _don't_ give you thread-local state anymore
20:21	gtrak``	gfredericks feels bad for the vars
20:21	gfredericks	it feels like there's two concepts being complected together, which I'm not used to in clojure
20:22	hiredman	they give you indirect linking
20:22	technomancy	vars have to be reference types or you couldn't update functions interactively
20:22	hiredman	right
20:22	gfredericks	yeah :/
20:22	technomancy	in ml-descendants IIRC redefinitions don't apply retroactively
20:22	hiredman	so they are very useful, but the same time you do pay a cost for them
20:23	hiredman	so there are ways to avoid that cost, definline, defstatic, etc
20:24	gfredericks	hmmm
20:24	hiredman	vars are also useful as serializable function pointers
20:25	hiredman	,(prn-str #'group-by)
20:25	clojurebot	"#'clojure.core/group-by\n"
20:25	hiredman	,(read-string (pr-str #'group-by))
20:25	clojurebot	(var clojure.core/group-by)
20:25	gfredericks	hiredman: that is quite an interesting way to look at it
20:26	hiredman	if I ever write a book, the implmentation and design decisions around vars get a chapter
20:27	gfredericks	hiredman: if you ever write a book [about clojure], I will read it.
20:27	hiredman	IIX. Vars: WTF?
20:29	gfredericks	IIX -- :D
20:29	gfredericks	hiredman: I want every chapter to be numbered by fake roman numerals
20:29	hiredman	how do roman numerals work again?
20:29	hiredman	right, the other way
20:29	duck1123	Chapter #'IIX
20:29	gfredericks	lol
20:30	duck1123	I like vars because they allow me to write multimethods that dispatch on the function
20:30	gary_poster	_khaliG, gfredericks, hiredman, FWIW I found where I read about using type hints for documentation. In the current beta of Programming Clojure (Bedra and Holloway, clojure/core AFAIK) it says "These type hints serve three purposes: [o]ptimizing critical performance paths[, d]ocumenting the required type[, and e]nforcing the required type at runtime."
20:31	gary_poster	That's not to contradict hiredman or the obviously authoritative page to which he pointed, but sharing where I got it.
20:31	gary_poster	I haven't reviewed JoC; I've been reading the PC beta more recently.
20:31	gary_poster	It might or might not be in JoC, I mean
20:31	gfredericks	well now we can all sleep soundly
20:32	gtrak``	there's no downside to too many hints I guess, unless they're wrong?
20:32	hiredman	they make the code harder to read and less general
20:33	gfredericks	can you type hint with a protocol?
20:33	technomancy	gtrak``: they're wrong more often than you think
20:33	hiredman	protocols are not types
20:33	technomancy	because the code will still work if they're incorrect, so it's easy to change the code without changing the hints
20:33	technomancy	(in that respect they're just like comments)
20:34	gtrak``	i don't use them except to silence the compiler
20:34	hiredman	they do generate an interface you could type hint with, but you can breaks things
20:34	gfredericks	technomancy: isn't there some context in which a type hint changes the behavior?
20:34	duck1123	I think that'll get better with 1.3 now that they're checked more
20:34	hiredman	because not everything that satisfies the protocol will implement the interface
20:34	gfredericks	hiredman: specifically things that are extend-type'ed?
20:34	hiredman	sure
20:35	gfredericks	I swear I remember being surprised at some point when I found out that a type hint could change a program's behavior
20:35	duck1123	gfredericks: if you have 2 classes that have the same method name, but you type hint the wrong way, you get odd errors
20:36	gtrak``	i've seen some rumors about optional static typing being not out of the question
20:36	technomancy	gfredericks: a wrong type hint will result in reflection
20:36	technomancy	afaik
20:36	hiredman	depends how wrong it is
20:36	gfredericks	technomancy: I mean beyond those sorts of performance implications
20:36	technomancy	hiredman: oh?
20:36	gfredericks	in some case, contradicting the type hint would cause it to break
20:36	hiredman	like what duck1123 said
20:37	technomancy	aha
20:37	hiredman	if the type hint apears correct in that way, the compiler will generate a cast+method call
20:37	hiredman	so the error will be a classcastexception
20:38	dnolen	type hints are not and never will be idiomatic beyond performance and interop, http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-09-21.html#16:56
20:38	devn	but no need to point that out
20:38	devn	I think you just arrive at that conclusion on your own
20:39	devn	It takes very little mental agility to realize they're just adding noise.
20:40	hiredman	well halloway is apparently saying they are good for documentation
20:40	hiredman	the idea of arguing with him about it is just exhausting
20:40	devn	It's like being explicit for the sake of it. Why? It's like adding metadata to everything you build about their birthday or something.
20:41	devn	I don't see any problem with that either.
20:41	gfredericks	hiredman: it might just be left over from the first version
20:41	gfredericks	it's certainly there in the first version
20:41	dnolen	it's left over from the first version
20:41	dnolen	and it's wrong
20:41	hiredman	maybe, I never finished that book either
20:41	devn	wrong...to a point
20:42	dnolen	only the first point is relevant. there's no enforcment, and useless as a general form of documentation
20:42	devn	I can conceive of a scenario where an explicit type hint might be a nice way of documenting a particularly hairy area of "typestuff".
20:42	devn	but again I'll say what I did earlier -- you rarely need this, but you could use it for some light documentation in a dark corner here or there.
20:42	devn	It might just make sense to use it there.
20:43	gfredericks	devn: you can document with docstrings and comments though
20:43	devn	The majority of cases do not require it, nor do they even suggest it as a possibility.
20:43	devn	gfredericks: I think I said that earlier.
20:43	gfredericks	devn: probably :)
20:43	devn	I'm surprised you guys are still talking about it. :)
20:43	hiredman	types tend to be simple carriers of stuff, most complex clojure stuff is nested maps and vectors
20:43	devn	It's such...minutae.
20:43	devn	Might as well build something instead...
20:44	gfredericks	Maybe it means the language is well designed, since we _could_ be sitting here griping about why our language doesn't have closures or integers.
20:44	devn	lol
20:44	devn	Yeah, I think that's a fair statement.
20:44	devn	Although, beware the dogma stick. People don't like assholes.
20:44	devn	Even if they're right.
20:46	gfredericks	devn: in saying so you're both right _and_ not an asshole!
20:46	devn	Sorry, didn't mean to say that to you specifically gfredericks-- I just am being wary of it.
20:47	devn	I see this in dysfunctional communities: "You don't like type systems so fuck you." "You can't possibly appreciate how expressive my language is so get lost.", etc.
20:48	duck1123	I think too many people here are also Haskell fans
20:49	devn	Strong opinions rule. We just need to be careful about being dickish about them. I think the type hints as documentation thing is minor. There is absolutely no reason for "calling out" people or being like "HOW DARE YOU!" over it.
20:49	dnolen	duck1123: cuz we know they're are evil and up to no good.
20:50	devn	dnolen: haha
20:50	devn	btw, dnolen, i have this sinking suspicion you can give me some insight on this...
20:50	devn	dnolen: are chunked sequences at all related to haskell "iteratees"
20:51	dnolen	devn: I don't know anything about iteratees
20:51	hiredman	there is a lot of poorly written clojure code out there, it irks me
20:51	devn	damn!
20:51	hiredman	they are not
20:51	devn	hiredman: pull requests, brother!
20:51	devn	I've converted a haskeller or two's libraries to a more idiomatic clojure style. They were accomodating.
20:52	devn	Just find a way to replace regex and spaceshipish function names and you're off to the races!
20:52	devn	err replace via regex camelCase
20:53	hiredman	chunked seqs and iteratees have some similarities, stream fusionish stuff
20:53	devn	(defn <\|fooThingToBuyBread\|> [argumentTheFirst argumentTheSecond] stuff)
20:54	devn	hiredman: i thought i might be nuts in thinking that. i see some "similar" features, but I just don't know them well enough to know how close they are.
20:55	devn	,(symbol "<-_->")
20:55	clojurebot	<-_->
20:55	devn	I think that should replace -main
20:59	gfredericks	devn: they really make function names like <\|this\|> ? or is that an exaggeration?
21:00	gfredericks	I don't know enough haskell to tell
21:00	devn	gfredericks: a library I idiomaticized had some interesting naming involved
21:00	devn	it was related to parser combinators so some of them make sense
21:01	gfredericks	ah ha
21:01	devn	but even still it just made things look a bit...messy
21:01	gfredericks	I wonder if scala refugees are worse
21:01	devn	(defn <\|> [])
21:01	devn	etc.
21:01	devn	dum dee dum: (<\|> ...)
21:02	duck1123	it would be fun to name a bunch of clojure functions to look like html elements just to troll people
21:02	devn	it just reads weird. maybe I'm being emotional about it, but my experience is that those naming styles are just weird
21:02	devn	i like having freedom in clojure to use UTF-8 craziness
21:02	devn	but don't let the freedom lead you astray and so on
21:02	devn	with great power comes great responsibility and so on
21:03	devn	,(defn æ [])
21:03	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
21:03	devn	awww
21:04	devn	,(defn <-Ã->¸ [])
21:04	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
21:04	gfredericks	,(let [defn list] (defn æ []))
21:04	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
21:04	gfredericks	haha
21:04	devn	hiredman thought of everything, unfortunately
21:04	devn	;)
21:04	gfredericks	but that one was harmless
21:04	gfredericks	&(let [defn list] (defn æ []))
21:04	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
21:04	gfredericks	ack
21:05	duck1123	better safe than sorry
21:05	devn	whitelist, dont blacklist
21:05	devn	that's the rule of rules
21:05	devn	or it seems to be anyway
21:05	devn	so gfredericks duck1123 i dont know you guys
21:05	devn	hi!
21:05	gfredericks	hi devn!
21:06	duck1123	hello
21:06	devn	what are you guys getting into? should i know you already? you guys work in clojure or just hobbying?
21:07	gfredericks	I do webbish development for a medical university, and use clojure a good portion of the time. I'm currently agonizing over whether I'd be happier doing more development for the rest of my life or trying to be academic.
21:07	devn	learning it for fun, for profit, for job security, because your friend won't shut up about how awesome it is?
21:07	duck1123	I'm working on an OStatus-compatible microblog. (similar to identi.ca)
21:07	gfredericks	I also use it for nearly all my personal projects
21:07	devn	gfredericks: very cool
21:07	devn	duck1123: equally awesome
21:08	duck1123	I'm so glad I'm finally able to use Clojure for my projects at work
21:08	devn	yeah that's great to hear
21:08	devn	it seems like work in that area is heating up
21:08	duck1123	up to this point we've been using Ruby
21:08	gfredericks	I was first introduced to clojure at work, two years ago
21:08	devn	Yeah I work at a Ruby shop primarily. We've done bits of clojure work here and there, and I think I'm slowly converting-- but it takes time to show people the why
21:08	gfredericks	six months after I was first introduced to ruby/erlang, which was the first I had heard of functional programming
21:09	technomancy	devn: where is that?
21:09	devn	gfredericks: whoever introduced you must be pretty awesome
21:09	devn	technomancy: bendyworks
21:10	gfredericks	devn: he definitely stood out
21:10	devn	i feel like an old fuddy duddy saying this because there is so much more happening now than there was then
21:10	gfredericks	based on bendyworks.com I'd say it's a typography shop
21:10	devn	but seeing this place grow out of a crack in the cement has been so incredibly fun to watch
21:11	devn	gfredericks: it's a shop that hired a designer ;)
21:11	gfredericks	devn: that right there is so far out of my range of experience...
21:11	gfredericks	it's a pretty slick front page though
21:12	gfredericks	I've never seen such a scrolling effect before
21:12	devn	the scrolling effect thing is sort of glitchy but we've just been really busy on other projects
21:12	gfredericks	devn: you're one of the eight faces?
21:12	gfredericks	looked fine to me. I didn't try to break it though.
21:12	devn	i am. i'm the hipster-ish photo
21:12	gfredericks	you mean the yellow one? :)
21:12	devn	haha! precisely!
21:13	devn	i think I'm leading our crew in terms of hipsterdom
21:13	gfredericks	so that's where "devn" comes from
21:13	devn	err, I'm one of the top 3 anyways
21:13	devn	gfredericks: correct. I used to be defn, which once upon a time was for def n ... end, as in ruby
21:13	devn	i found clojure and then started to feel sort of like a putzy fanboy what with (defn) and all
21:13	gfredericks	haha
21:13	devn	so I converted to devn :)
21:14	duck1123	ok, so you're defn
21:14	gfredericks	devn: better than people calling you "girl frog"
21:14	devn	hahahaha
21:14	duck1123	you must have gotten sick of people highlighting you all the time
21:14	devn	duck1123: you have no idea
21:14	devn	as soon as i started idling in here I'd get back to my highlight buffer and be like WTF
21:14	gfredericks	(devn foo [x y] (+ x y))
21:14	devn	but it was sort of informative
21:15	devn	if you want to learn about a language just make yourself a constructor-ish nickname
21:15	devn	and watch your buffer fill with examples
21:15	devn	irssi
21:15	devn	by nerds, for nerds.
21:15	gfredericks	gosh dangit I stopped using irssi when everybody said "use emacs and erc"
21:15	devn	i like erc and all, but I never got into it
21:15	duck1123	they were right
21:15	devn	mainly because irc in my code buffer = major fucking distraction
21:16	gfredericks	I started using erc but never started using emacs for anything else. Now I use erc and vim.
21:16	devn	technomancy: fair enough, im just not as disciplined
21:16	devn	I wish I had paren matching though :X
21:16	technomancy	devn: well it's mostly because emacs is useless at concurrency
21:16	technomancy	but yeah, paren matching in irc is awesome
21:16	devn	technomancy: i suppose i could run erc in a remote emacs instance
21:16	technomancy	devn: it's easier than running a bouncer
21:17	devn	i run the nextstep GUI emacs on OSX primarily
21:17	devn	i run irssi in screen on a remote box
21:17	devn	so it's not insane to use erc in a remote emacs
21:17	devn	but it always feels sort of bulky
21:17	devn	irssi is so light
21:17	duck1123	I just switched back to using stumpwm today
21:17	technomancy	devn: yeah, it's basically the same except you get to extend it with elisp instead of perl
21:17	devn	technomancy: SOLD!
21:17	devn	;)
21:17	technomancy	heh; and you get ido for switching, M-/ and stuff. =)
21:18	gfredericks	I think I only switched to erc because I was trying to integrate IRC and IM, which I now realize I never did
21:18	devn	how did I justify using irssi for so long?
21:18	technomancy	secret fondness for perl?
21:18	devn	hippie-expand FTW
21:18	technomancy	sorry, that was uncalled-for =)
21:18	devn	I think I just like other languages for the sake of them
21:18	devn	if computers and programming didn't mean jobs
21:18	devn	I would just be a linguist I think
21:19	technomancy	devn: how obscure have you gone?
21:19	devn	technomancy: in terms of what? programming languages?
21:19	technomancy	yeah
21:19	technomancy	hipster challenge!
21:19	devn	hahahaha
21:19	devn	idk, I tried out APL, J, K recently -- that was interesting
21:19	devn	I'm not on fogus' level
21:20	devn	I tried to install a working eiffel setup for like 4 days and gave up
21:20	technomancy	nice
21:20	technomancy	I've written a bit of ocaml and played around briefly with factor
21:20	devn	Yeah, factor still has me interested
21:20	devn	although I found forth
21:20	technomancy	I tried to get into smalltalk via opencobalt, but I couldn't get it to launch, and the stack trace mentioned SOAP, so I fled.
21:20	devn	that looks really interesting
21:20	devn	technomancy: oo! want a brainfsck?
21:21	devn	install inferno-os and run it on OSX
21:21	technomancy	joegallo is your man for that
21:21	technomancy	oh, not the language?
21:21	devn	write LIMBO on infero-os
21:21	devn	and tell me your brain doesn't implode
21:21	devn	inferno*
21:21	technomancy	heh. closest I've gotten to that is running wmii
21:21	technomancy	but I've got mad respect for plan9
21:22	devn	i did google summer of code in 2007 for the inferno project
21:22	devn	i was so underqualified
21:22	devn	that is a jungle of ideas
21:22	devn	so much to learn. rob pike is a hero due to that adventure.
21:23	devn	and caerwyn jones. that guy. read his inferno programmer's notebook.
21:23	devn	it's brilliant stuff.
21:23	devn	technomancy: what have you been toying with?
21:23	technomancy	devn: mostly just ocaml
21:24	technomancy	wondering how much work it would be to get ocsigen running unofficially on heroku =)
21:24	devn	technomancy: I don't expect a rational answer, but...why?
21:24	devn	oh! right! :)
21:24	devn	i love that heroku is embracing clojure
21:24	gfredericks	and php?
21:24	technomancy	devn: actually my original ocaml interest was because I need something that launches quickly without a VM
21:24	technomancy	and I don't care about concurrency because for long-running processes clojure has that covered
21:25	devn	ocaml is um, fast.
21:25	devn	widefinder 2, for instance.
21:25	technomancy	ocaml has a quirky standard library, but it at least has enough to make quick lil guis
21:25	devn	yeah it's like the functional equivalent of tcl/tk
21:25	devn	it's weird like that.
21:26	technomancy	devn: http://technomancy.us/152 <= thoughts and rationale for ocaml
21:26	devn	technomancy: will read.
21:26	TheBusby	any issue with the type system? When I took a look at it I thought ocaml required a different function for each type to support something like "map"
21:26	technomancy	oh, I guess mirah is pretty obscure too
21:26	technomancy	I think I was like user #8 for mirah
21:26	devn	fuckkkkk. not another type system chit chat...
21:27	devn	TheBusby: im sorry, not trying to be a jerk to you at all -- it's just...damnit...this issue of type systems
21:27	technomancy	TheBusby: my program was only 40 lines, so the type system never got a chance to get in the way
21:27	devn	it seems to come up ALL THE TIME, and some people cannot see the forest for the trees
21:27	_khaliG	technomancy, what about now - how do you deal with the quick start VM issue w/ clojure?
21:27	TheBusby	just curious about personal experience, not debating details
21:27	gfredericks	devn: I think your profile on the site has a typo.
21:27	devn	i spoke to erik meijer briefly after his talk at strange loop and he was talking about "little erik"
21:27	devn	gfredericks: likely
21:27	technomancy	_khaliG: I learned ocaml so I would have a better way to write programs that have to start fast.
21:28	devn	erik was talking about he was like "HELL YEAH FUNCTIONAL PROGRAMMING!"
21:28	devn	and then "HELL YEAH TYPE SYSTEMS!
21:28	devn	and now he sort of only kind of believes in either of them
21:28	technomancy	_khaliG: I wouldn't hold my breath for quick-launch clojure
21:28	technomancy	but it would be nice!
21:28	devn	use clojurescript and node!
21:28	TheBusby	technomancy: great blog post. Exactly the type of info I was looking for, thank you!
21:28	_khaliG	technomancy, that makes too much sense :P what about railgun nailgun or whatver it is? reason i ask if i've got a clojure app i want people to use and the slow VM thing will need a solution for me
21:29	technomancy	_khaliG: a daemon works for a certain class of problem
21:29	technomancy	it's not a good general-use solution though
21:29	devn	technomancy: agreed
21:29	technomancy	_khaliG: jark looks promising on the daemon side
21:29	hiredman	really?
21:29	hiredman	all my stuff runs as daemons
21:30	dnolen	devn: +1. Learning OCaml or SML not a bad either.
21:30	devn	imagine if a narrator was narrayting IRC: He'd say "a malloy is now a malloy underscore"
21:30	dnolen	bad idea either.
21:30	technomancy	hiredman: you have a lot more patience to set that kind of stuff up than most people
21:30	devn	narrating*
21:31	devn	technomancy: familiarity vs ease, though. ;)
21:31	hiredman	patience is a useful quality to cultivate
21:31	technomancy	hiredman: but not to require of your usesr =)
21:31	technomancy	*users
21:32	hiredman	but daemons start when they open their laptop and are always there
21:32	hiredman	like magic
21:32	devn	actually, no wink on that -- I did not want to wink. I truly believe all of this nonsense about "BUT IT TAKES 3 HOURS TO MAKE IT PERFECT FOR ME" are completely well founded, but they're also completely irrational. It cannot be a perfect environment when you start it, because you are unique, and no it should not takes 10 years to configure it.
21:32	technomancy	hiredman: like memory-hungry magic =)
21:32	hiredman	I have 8gigs
21:32	_khaliG	ooh jark does look nice - i hope it succeeds
21:32	devn	pft I scoff at your 8 gigs
21:33	devn	I have 512 gigs of RAM.
21:33	hiredman	the most my macbook will hold
21:33	devn	That's how I roll, hiredman.
21:33	gfredericks	devn: you lie!
21:33	technomancy	hiredman: that's why I qualified it with general-purpose
21:33	devn	I can't run on a machine that isn't made by Azul.
21:34	hiredman	the run scripts lein generates are very useful
21:34	TheBusby	the problem with 512GB of ram though, is that the JVM will use all 512GB of ram to read a small text file ;)
21:34	devn	bahahaha
21:35	devn	so incidental complexity at the language layer: check.
21:35	devn	incidental complexity at the tooling layer: hmmm
21:35	devn	let me just pass 12 args to my java command!
21:36	hiredman	again, I fail to see the problem, launchd launchs the daemons and they are just there to use
21:37	devn	hiredman: there's no problem, there's just a lack of familiarity
21:38	TheBusby	hmm, I wonder what 'wc -l' would look like as a daemon though...
21:38	technomancy	what I want is a sexp-aware git merge strategy
21:39	devn	technomancy: i think such a thing exists
21:39	devn	hiredman: remember dinner?
21:39	hiredman	TheBusby: wc is a command executed by the "shell" daemon
21:39	devn	hiredman: what was that?
21:39	technomancy	devn: from what I could find a year or two ago, most of the research was on XML
21:39	devn	hiredman: alan was talking about it IIRC.
21:40	hiredman	yeah, uh, alan said he thought the scheme guys had solved it
21:40	devn	There is a way to do what you're suggesting technomancy.
21:40	TheBusby	hiredman: I was thinking in refernce to nailgun/etc
21:40	technomancy	devn: that's just an example of something the JVM's going to do a crappy job of
21:40	devn	hiredman: yeah I can't remember the details
21:40	devn	technomancy: we talk about abstractions.
21:40	devn	technomancy: we can do better.
21:41	gfredericks	AJVM
21:42	hiredman	it's not like we spin up a whole new process to deliver a website (unless your rails) so why should we constantly spin up new processes locally?
21:42	technomancy	because unix?
21:42	hiredman	just about all the apps I use I never close
21:43	hiredman	firefox, fluid apps, iterm, and emacs
21:43	devn	httpd?
21:43	hiredman	quicksilver
21:43	hiredman	my twitter client
21:43	devn	and a partridge in a pear tree
21:43	hiredman	the all just run
21:43	TheBusby	cat, sed, awk, wc?
21:43	devn	and a partridge in a pear tree
21:43	gfredericks	five golden pings!
21:43	hiredman	the processes are in fact still an expensive abstraction
21:44	hiredman	technomancy: what about it?
21:44	devn	gfredericks: a friend of mine has proposed that the squart root of 1225 is the square root of christmas
21:44	devn	as in march 5th is the square root of christmas
21:44	hiredman	you seem to be under the impression that unix is X rather than unix is a vague idea in a bunch of people's heads that changes over time
21:45	devn	The 10-day interval between the Square Root of Christmas and Pi Day shall be known as Nerdigras.
21:45	devn	On the twelth day of nerdigras I sent my ISP...
21:45	devn	❧ 12 fracking fractals
21:45	devn	❧ 11 puns so stunning
21:45	devn	❧ 10 bits a twiddling
21:45	devn	❧ 7 pointers dangling
21:45	devn	❧ 6 trees a splaying
21:45	devn	❧ Fiiiive RFID rings
21:45	devn	❧ 4 calling stacks
21:45	devn	❧ 3 unmatched parens
21:45	hiredman	the google go guy had a rant recently about how he dislikes modern unix
21:45	devn	❧ 2 Power Gloves (all together now!)
21:45	devn	❧ ... and a hash map in a B-treeeee!
21:46	devn	sorry for the nastiness, but I couldn't resist.
21:46	hiredman	which certainly would not be the case if unix was a perfect ideal
21:46	TheBusby	hiredman: link?
21:46	devn	hiredman: you're talking about pike. I think pike is peeved because some of the great ideas behind plan9 never made it to Linux.
21:46	hiredman	the reason "unix" is sucessful is the ability to change
21:46	technomancy	devn: yeah, he was complaining because modern systems aren't process/file-oriented enough
21:47	technomancy	which is the opposite
21:47	hiredman	devn: oh, no doubt
21:47	devn	he wants "everything is a file"
21:47	devn	I don't know if I agree, honestly
21:47	gfredericks	what things could be files? processes?
21:47	devn	gfredericks: everything.
21:47	devn	plan9
21:47	devn	inferno-os
21:47	devn	inferno-os could have beaten Java
21:47	gfredericks	devn: mice?
21:47	gfredericks	integers?
21:48	devn	inferno-os was better than java. you can boot up a fast instance in 1M of RAM
21:48	devn	acme was an insanely interesting editor and continues to be
21:48	hiredman	but want I mean is, if you read his comment, he seems to feel that the plan9 ideal is really the inheritor of the "unix" mantle and modern unixes have some how betrayed their lineage
21:48	devn	hiredman: why wouldn't the creator of that alternative path reassert his passion for his own ideals?
21:49	devn	rhetorical. of course he wants that.
21:49	devn	he invented it.
21:49	hiredman	devn: he had an idea of what the true "unix" is, as does technomancy
21:49	hiredman	and they are different
21:49	devn	Yeah I don't disagree with you I guess
21:49	hiredman	so just going around saying "because unix" is noise
21:50	devn	I'm just pointing out some obvious bias
21:50	hiredman	ugh
21:50	devn	?
21:50	hiredman	I did not say he was right about anything, or agree with him about anything, or anything
21:50	devn	hiredman: sorry -- I think I follow, you're just suggesting that unix is not a static thing -- it changes. is that right?
21:50	hiredman	nothing to do with the factual content of what he said regardless of bias
21:51	hiredman	I am suggesting "because unix" is as useful a thing to say about something as "because it's awesome"
21:51	hiredman	there is no information there
21:52	devn	hiredman: so that's interesting because what I got out of Pike's comment is that, while he is not enthused it didn't go his way, he is ultimately happier with the """""""UNIX"""""""" philosophy that currently exists, moreso than alternative philosophies.
21:52	devn	s/that/than
21:52	lazybot	<devn> hiredman: so than's interesting because what I got out of Pike's comment is than, while he is not enthused it didn't go his way, he is ultimately happier with the """""""UNIX"""""""" philosophy than currently exists, moreso than alternative philosophies.
21:52	devn	./kick lazybot
21:53	devn	man I can't type.
21:53	devn	I hope you can pick up on the gist of that incoherent rant.
21:53	gfredericks	(dec lazybot)
21:53	lazybot	⟹ -1
21:53	devn	(dec lazybot)
21:53	lazybot	⟹ -2
21:53	hiredman	shrug
21:54	devn	hiredman: I'm just saying. It could be a lot worse. It could also be a lot better.
21:54	devn	That leaves us here, now.
21:54	devn	No mystery there.
21:54	devn	hiredman: not saying this to you specifically, again just ranting
21:55	hiredman	I really don't understand what you are talking about, you seem to be trying to talking about what pike said
21:55	hiredman	I am not
21:56	devn	hiredman: I'm missing you then. Why bring up his comment if you don't wish to discuss its content?
21:56	hiredman	I am saying this and only this: saying something "is unix" is empty of content
21:56	technomancy	I'm just saying "everything must be a daemon or slow to respond" is a crappy requirement.
21:56	hiredman	sure
21:56	hiredman	and that is a statement that conveys meaning
21:56	hiredman	er, content
21:57	technomancy	unix traditionally is composed of lots of small processes that interact over pipes
21:57	hiredman	technomancy: sendmail, bind, etc?
21:57	devn	composability
21:58	hiredman	devn: I brought his content only to point out there are differences of opinion over what unix is and what it's strengths are
21:58	hiredman	comment
21:58	hiredman	its
21:58	technomancy	sendmail runs both as a daemon and as a quick-launching process afaik
21:58	devn	hiredman: sorry to branch the hell out of that statement. I must have taken your statement wrong.
21:59	hiredman	technomancy: so? does that not suggest a broader view then "lots of samll processes that interact over pipes"?
21:59	hiredman	than
21:59	hiredman	small
21:59	devn	Doug McIlroy
22:00	technomancy	hiredman: the only reason it runs as a daemon is to accept incoming network connections
22:00	hiredman	many of your small processes are shell builtins
22:00	hiredman	(or realisticly in your case elisp functions)
22:00	technomancy	I'm not saying "unix means no daemons", just "make things daemons that have good reason to be daemons"
22:02	devn	"good reason"
22:02	devn	so intuitive and obvious!
22:02	hiredman	is omnipresence not a good reason?
22:02	hiredman	quicksilver is great like, always running, never there unless I need it
22:03	devn	except when its indexing when you dont want it to
22:03	devn	it's*
22:03	hiredman	I dunno, does it do that?
22:03	devn	depends on your config
22:03	devn	depends on whether you do enough in the right places to make it annoying
22:03	devn	depends on whether that CPU time matters to you
22:04	devn	depends on whether that disk access matters to you
22:05	hiredman	my emacs uptime is only 19 days :/
22:11	devn	lol
22:11	devn	i don't even know how to respond to that
22:13	hiredman	weep, sometime 19 days ago I lost where I was in most likely around 40 open buffers
22:13	devn	Sounds like my browser
22:13	devn	I keep my editor clean
22:13	hiredman	ah, firefox restores everything when I open and close it
22:13	devn	I treat it like a temple
22:14	devn	hiredman: no that's what I'm saying -- I make a mess of my browser for that very reason. I trim my editor like bonsai.
22:14	hiredman	I've been digging through infinispan's source recently, it is some what twisty so I have lots of buffers for various java files
22:15	devn	ah, gotcha
22:15	devn	this is where i try to use eclipse and then just get a shit-ton of buffers going
22:16	technomancy	is it hard to get a tags file for something like that?
22:16	devn	maybe?
22:16	hiredman	dunno, me neither
22:16	devn	I haven't either.
22:16	hiredman	rgrep
22:16	duck1123	I love emacs because you don't even notice it and have 119 buffers open
22:16	devn	duck1123: im militant about buffers!
22:16	hiredman	yeah 40 was a conservative guess, I have 80 open right now
22:16	devn	more militant than an angry librarian!
22:17	hiredman	(81)
22:17	hugod	emacs with 900 open buffers uses about the same as safari with a couple of tabs
22:17	devn	(81) "Poop Hatch" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKZSf3WHrKI
22:17	devn	^hiredman
22:17	hiredman	hugod: good to know
22:18	hugod	same memory that is
22:18	duck1123	I close buffers all the time, but sometimes you don't even notice
22:18	devn	I will force this upon all of you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKZSf3WHrKI
23:24	ivan__	Any thoughts on which book is better? 'The joy or clojure' or 'Clojure in action' ?
23:25	ataggart	probably whichever is newer
23:25	ivan__	of*
23:25	ivan__	well Clojure in action is newer, but the joy of clojure is only march 2011 :)
23:28	amalloy	i would recommend JoC personally
23:28	technomancy	I wasn't impressed by the sample I read from clojure in action
23:28	amalloy	but i haven't actually read CiA
23:28	technomancy	it was a while ago though
23:28	technomancy	JoC is pretty much universally-acclaimed
23:29	ivan__	i was leaning towards it based on what i had seen
23:31	gtrak``	ivan__, JoC is core language stuff only, but it has a lot of examples and rationale which is fun to read. it makes you think about what's going on
23:32	_khaliG	ivan__, practical clojure is really good
23:33	ivan__	gtrak``: yes, i only really want language stuff, which is why i was leaning towards it
23:33	ivan__	_khaliG: manning published books only :)
23:33	_khaliG	ivan__, ah k, i wouldn't bother then :P
23:34	_khaliG	joy is unreadable imho
23:34	gtrak``	_khaliG, that's not true at all, in fact it is a joy to read
23:34	ivan__	i probably wont actaully read it <.< but hopefully will be ok language reference
23:34	_khaliG	i'd say PC is a joy to read
23:35	gtrak``	reviews: http://www.amazon.com/Joy-Clojure-Thinking-Way/product-reviews/1935182641/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
23:36	_khaliG	gtrak``, thanks, let met give it a 1 star to balance things out :)
23:36	gtrak``	no skin off my back :-)
23:36	gtrak``	I'll give it a 5 if you give it a 1
23:36	amalloy	PC is like super-old, right? the number of people who've come in here sad that they don't know how to get clojure.contrib.duck-streams to work in clojure-1.3...
23:37	_khaliG	amalloy, I meant practical clojure, not programming clojure (which is pretty crap)
23:37	duck1123	Practical or Programming?
23:37	amalloy	i don't actually know which is which; i just associate PC with "out of date"
23:37	ivan__	the only book ive ever bought since my first year of uni is land of lisp, and that was only cos of the video
23:38	duck1123	Programming Clojure was the first, so of course it's the most out of date
23:38	_khaliG	amalloy, yeah programming was the first one, it's fairly old, i think from 2009, practical is new (2010ish)
23:38	ivan__	i have the interwebs
23:38	amalloy	i'm a pretty good book reviewer as long as you don't care whether my review is correlated with the book i claim to be reviewing
23:38	ivan__	haha
23:38	_khaliG	amalloy, lol
23:39	gtrak``	after reading this book, the hardest thing in clojure for me was learning emacs
23:39	gtrak``	but i haven't tried macros yet
23:41	ivan__	gtrak``: forget learning emacs, i cant even get all the clojure stuff installed for emacs lol
23:41	gtrak``	ha, yea, it's more overwhelming than the language itself
23:41	gtrak``	but the emacs starter kit is a good starting point
23:42	gtrak``	i still haven't figured out how to debug, but it's not as necessary when you have pure functions
23:43	alandipert	i'm like emacs a lot now, but i wish i knew that you don't need swank and stuff to get started
23:43	gtrak``	i guess you can use inferior-lisp, but it's not as good of an experience
23:43	gtrak``	I'm doing that right now with clojurescript