#clojure – 2011-10-02

2011-10-02

00:00	amalloy	you are never going to get that from clojure
00:00	Arafangion	amalloy: I find that hard to believe.
00:01	amalloy	it is a hosted language, and C isn't really a "host" so much as "someone who, if you're polite, won't murder you"
00:01	jli	haha
00:01	amalloy	and java lacks the capability to talk to hardware except through native libraries which have to be written in C (or something else native) anyway
00:01	Arafangion	amalloy: I'm very comfortable with such bindings.
00:02	Arafangion	amalloy: As comfortable as one can be, anyway...
00:02	S11001001	Arafangion: why not require mono on mac?
00:02	Arafangion	S11001001: It's a large, unusual download.
00:02	amalloy	great, then deploy your clojure app with the jvm or .net dependency and your native libraries
00:02	ibdknox	fwiw
00:02	Arafangion	On windows I use .net, so that's fine there.
00:02	ibdknox	I think there are at most a handful of people doing gui's in clojure
00:03	Arafangion	Oh, I'm not doing the gui in this!
00:03	Arafangion	I'm doing the GUI natively on each platform. (For better or for worse)
00:03	amalloy	nobody will ever write a clojure->C compiler because clojure depends on the host to do all kinds of things that C just doesn't do. if you wrote such a thing, it wouldn't be at all like clojure by the time you were done
00:04	Arafangion	amalloy: How so?
00:04	amalloy	(or, you would realize that what you wrote turned out to be the jvm)
00:04	Arafangion	amalloy: Actually, I suspect that what the 'C target' ends up writing could well be a javascript host.
00:05	amalloy	memory management, for example
00:05	miwillhite	hey all…what are people using for clojure and mysql?
00:05	Arafangion	memory management is a minor point.
00:07	ibdknox	miwillhite: you have a few options: clojureql, clj-record, or writing against clojure.java.jdbc
00:07	S11001001	Arafangion: you might consider common lisp or scheme; some implementations have great C binding support and compile to standalone binaries
00:08	jli	Arafangion: hm, what do you mean it's a minor point?
00:08	ibdknox	haha, could you imagine clojure with explicit memory management? shudders
00:08	amalloy	(inc S11001001)
00:08	lazybot	⟹ 2
00:09	amalloy	ibdknox: i actually read about a lisp someone had written without garbage collection
00:09	miwillhite	thanks ibdknox
00:10	S11001001	you can still turn off the gc in some lisps
00:10	Arafangion	ibdknox: There are a number of ways to manage memory in C, including adding a garbage collector.
00:10	S11001001	then it's your fault if you don't turn it back on :)
00:10	ibdknox	haha
00:10	Arafangion	The best non-GC way of managing memory I've seen is probably that with the ObjC legacy runtime, but ugh, it still falls massively short of true GC.
00:10	ibdknox	Arafangion: I really hope you do use Clojure, but based on what you've described so far, I don't think Clojure is currently the right tool to solve your problem
00:10	Arafangion	NSAutoreleasePools are awesome.
00:11	jli	Arafangion: I wonder if trying to use clojure for your problem is really the best solution :(
00:11	Arafangion	ibdknox: Actually, it's not the right tool - I'm mostly exploring and learning for my own education.
00:11	jli	haha
00:11	ibdknox	Arafangion: party on then :D
00:11	amalloy	but yes. lisp was the first language do to a lot of things, including garbage collection. there's a reason this is the case, and also a reason why gc is the lisp-innovation most commonly used by mainstream languages
00:11	Arafangion	The rest of the people I'm working with are still learning Python, pushing yet another language isn't going to work. :(
00:13	ibdknox	lol
00:13	ibdknox	especially one this different
00:14	Arafangion	I'm basically the languages geek, it seems. :(
00:14	Arafangion	Despite never using erlang, or haskell. (Both are on my TODO list!)
00:14	jli	Arafangion: what's the program, if you can discuss any more detail?
00:15	Arafangion	jli: I can't really discuss, and it's not really relevant save that it requires the GUI to be written in the native toolkit (whatever that means), and that it interacts with hardware.
00:16	jli	Arafangion: what does interacting with hardware entail?
00:16	Arafangion	jli: From my perspective, it entails interacting with a C++ library.
00:16	srid	in enlive, can I select all <p> nodes that come after a <h2> node?
00:17	Arafangion	jli: Which I tend to handle by wrapping it, badly, into a more convenient library.
00:18	amalloy	$google java compute md5
00:18	lazybot	[Java simple class to compute MD5 hash] http://www.anyexample.com/programming/java/java_simple_class_to_compute_md5_hash.xml
00:18	amalloy	ugh. someone have a link to a real library?
00:18	Arafangion	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/415953/generate-md5-hash-in-java
00:19	Arafangion	amalloy: Despite SO's poor reputation on this network, they are remarkably good at answering dumb questions. :)
00:19	ibdknox	amalloy: it's relatively simple with MessageDigest
00:19	jli	srid: you mean the equivalent of the CSS selector "h2 + p" ?
00:19	srid	jli: yup
00:19	jli	should be. let's see.
00:19	srid	enlive docs are sadly insufficient
00:19	srid	http://enlive.cgrand.net/syntax.html is terrible to understand for humans
00:20	ibdknox	srid: https://github.com/marick/enlive-tutorial
00:20	ibdknox	srid: https://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial
00:20	ibdknox	muuuuuch better intros
00:20	srid	i read them
00:21	amalloy	ah, excellent. i'm already depending on commons-codec for base64; i might as well use their md5
00:21	jli	srid: seems like there's no "+" in enlive, but you could just use seq processing I think
00:21	ibdknox	I don't think you need +
00:22	ibdknox	:h2 :p should work?
00:22	Arafangion	What kind of lisp is Clojure? Is it feasible to write "lisp code" that happens to be run by different lisp implementations? (Eg, Clojure, ChickenScheme, etcetera)
00:22	jli	ibdknox: wouldn't that only match <p>'s inside <h2>'s?
00:22	khaliG	ibdknox, curious, why are there only a handful?
00:23	srid	jli: seq processing? you mean tree processing? what is the simplest way to select <p>'s that come after the <h2>?
00:23	ibdknox	jli: oh, whoops, it helps if I read what he wants
00:23	jli	:)
00:23	scottj	Arafangion: any clojure code more than a simple like (+ 2 2) isn't going to run on scheme w/o changes
00:23	ibdknox	khaliG: swing sucks, and I don't know that Clojure makes it particularly easy to write GUI code
00:24	amalloy	Arafangion: clojure picked different keywords for a lot of the low-level primitives, so there will be issues with a "direct transplant" even on the most common lisps
00:24	amalloy	eg, fn instead of lambda
00:25	amalloy	def and defn instead of define or defun
00:25	ibdknox	makes things so much easier to read
00:25	Arafangion	amalloy: That sucks - but I suppose that is a minor point? The more serious concern is probably the object system?
00:25	khaliG	ibdknox, hmm i think it does - miglayout + swing + clojure is pretty nice if you ask me as far as lisps go. Then again, I haven't tried for example lispworks CAPI so that might be better
00:26	amalloy	shrug the host interop, the standard libraries, the data types...
00:26	jli	Arafangion: I think it'd be a headache to try to compile clojure to another lisp
00:26	Arafangion	jli: What about compiling "another lisp" to clojure?
00:26	amalloy	livingstone was writing a scheme->clojure translator to help him learn clojure
00:27	jli	scheme is easy though :)
00:27	amalloy	don't know how that turned out
00:27	Arafangion	jli: Yeah, infact, scheme is the lisp I'm thinking of.
00:27	amalloy	jli: it's the most similar, i think, but there are plenty of pitfalls
00:27	jli	well, maybe modulo continuations
00:27	Arafangion	Business logic isn't exactly that damanding.
00:27	Arafangion	*demanding
00:27	khaliG	Arafangion, btw CAPI might be a good fit for your problem (native look and feel GUI on different platforms)
00:28	amalloy	continuations, tail calls, reified environments, "real" cons cells...
00:28	Arafangion	khaliG: The GUI isn't that difficult to do on the native platforms, honestly.
00:28	jli	amalloy: yeah. hmm, I wonder how macro -> macro compilation would work out. seems hairy.
00:28	Arafangion	khaliG: Modern toolkits more or less let you just click-click-click and you have the UI done.
00:29	jli	Arafangion: the GUIs can self-replicate now? it is truly the end of days
00:29	Arafangion	jli: Consider - it's also a good way to ensure separation of UI from business logic.
00:30	srid	jli: (drop-while #(= :p (:tag %)) (select dom [#{:h2 :p}])) does it.
00:30	khaliG	btw offtopic question perhaps - but what are some warm and fuzzy things about using the JVM for you guys?
00:30	srid	thanks to 4clojure, i didn't reinvent drop-while
00:31	miwillhite	exit
00:31	scottj	khaliG: very few bugs in my experience compared to common lisp and smalltalk environments I've used.
00:31	Arafangion	khaliG: It's generally easy to use anywhere, except perhaps, most smartphones.
00:32	S11001001	khaliG: it made our language of choice sound enterprisey when akamai bought us :)
00:33	jli	srid: it seems like that would select all <p>'s?
00:34	amalloy	srid: fwiw, (comp #{:p} :tag) is a prettier way to write #(= :p (:tag %))
00:34	khaliG	scottj, true, it's easy to take the extensive work that has gone into the JVM for granted but it's quite impressive if you reflect on it! S11001001 nice! :)
00:34	srid	jli: yes, but only those that come after <h2>
00:34	srid	amalloy: thanks
00:35	srid	i tend to forget the comp way of doing things
00:35	jli	amalloy is just a comp fanboy
00:35	jli	:)
00:35	amalloy	in a fight between comp and juxt, on the MOON, who would win?
00:35	srid	,(doc juxt)
00:35	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Alpha - name subject to change. Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
00:35	jli	srid: hm, I thought #{:h2 :p} would match all h2 and p elements, without regard for ordering.
00:36	jli	amalloy: juxt
00:36	khaliG	yea i follow amalloy on 4clojure and noticed his use of comp a few times.. made me use it myself since :P
00:36	srid	jli: seems like the ordering is top to bottom (no nested <p>'s in the HTML here)
00:36	amalloy	jli: i know, it's a no-brainer. i just put it out there so i could /ignore anyone who thinks comp would win
00:37	jli	my 4clojure solutions have a hideous amount of partial, apply, comp, and generally pointlessness. just getting it out of my system, I hope.
00:37	amalloy	jli: he's getting a list of all the h2s and ps; then he throws them away until he gets an h2
00:37	khaliG	jli, i think that's the point, to learn the language better imho
00:39	jli	amalloy: oh, I see now. srid: so there's only 1 h2?
00:40	srid	jli: yes.
00:40	srid	this webpage was created in frontpage
00:40	srid	i'm trying to convert it to to epub for reading on the phone
00:41	srid	specifically - Microsoft FrontPage 4.0
00:41	brehaut	srid: thats what, Mesozoic?
00:41	brehaut	or cretaceous. i never can remember
00:41	srid	late 1990's I think
00:42	Arafangion	Ancient! I was 5!
00:42	Arafangion	(And still learning to talk)
00:43	amalloy	so was frontpage
00:43	Arafangion	That's depressing.
00:43	ibdknox	that was back when frontpage would overwrite any html changes you made
00:43	Arafangion	Maybe that was why my speech was delayed.
00:45	scb	anybody doing anything serious on the web using clojure?
00:45	amalloy	www.4clojure.com
00:45	amalloy	for certain values of "serious"
00:46	jli	is there anything that does this? https://gist.github.com/1257064
00:46	jli	basically, partition but overlapping groups
00:46	amalloy	&(partition 3 1 (range 1 9))
00:46	lazybot	⇒ ((1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5) (4 5 6) (5 6 7) (6 7 8))
00:46	jli	oh, darn.
00:47	jli	haha
00:47	cark	=)
00:48	srid	how this made any more concise?
00:48	srid	(filter #(not (empty? (select % [:span :a :> text-node]))) nodes)
00:48	jli	srid: anyway. so, you could also use partition. (filter #(= (:tag (first %)) :h2) (partition 2 1 dom))
00:49	jli	I think at least.
00:49	jli	that would get you all (h2, p) pairs
00:49	amalloy	srid: (filter seq (...))?
00:49	scottj	srid: filter not is remove
00:50	amalloy	scottj: and empty is not seq...
00:50	S11001001	Arafangion: so you mean like bigloo, which compiles to C, java, and .net?
00:50	srid	filter seq works for enlive returning ()
00:50	Arafangion	S11001001: Yes.
00:50	srid	my filter must always return one result.
00:50	srid	i wish there was something like pick-first
00:51	jli	srid: I think some contrib library defines filter-first
00:51	jli	srid: I find myself using destructing for this a lot. (let [[result1] (filter ...)] ...)
00:51	Arafangion	S11001001: Although bigloo gives me low confidence, I'd trust 'C# generation' more than 'Experimental bytecode generation'.
00:53	Arafangion	Hmm, also, #bigloo is practically empty.
00:53	srid	ok, in actuality it turns out that i don't need filter
00:53	srid	(take-while #(not (seq (select % [:span :a :> text-node]))) (drop-while (comp #{:p} :tag) (select x [#{:h2 :p}])))
00:53	S11001001	a moment ago, you were considering starting your own such project, Arafangion
00:53	srid	that gets all paras after <h2> but stops at the para with a <span><a> link (which is the footer)
00:53	srid	this becomes a chapter in epub
00:54	Arafangion	S11001001: Considering, yes, but I'm not planning on actually using it professionally.
00:54	Arafangion	S11001001: Because the rest of the team would probably move to get me fired. ;)
00:55	S11001001	as I understand, you only are interested in the C part though
00:55	Arafangion	C is one of my targets.
00:55	Arafangion	ObjC and .NET are my primary targets.
00:56	ibdknox	I target awesome.
00:56	ibdknox	rimshot
00:56	scb	ibdknox: how ready do you think clojure is for the web? Like in comparisson to other solutions like Django, Rails, Lift, ..., that seem to come with batteries included? I mean I have been using Clojure for a while but I am still not decided whether to pursue working with it on webapps.
00:57	jli	scb: you should probably just do it :)
00:57	brehaut	is there any point specifically targeting objc? doesn't it all come down to c + objcMsgSend anyway
00:57	ibdknox	brehaut: he likely means cocoa :)
00:58	scb	jli: you think?
00:58	ibdknox	scb: yeah, I'd say just try it: http://www.webnoir.org
00:58	Arafangion	There are a lot of nice things provided by Cocoa.
00:58	brehaut	ibdknox: not that you have an oar in the game :P
00:58	ibdknox	not at all!
00:58	ibdknox	:D
00:58	S11001001	I believe the gnustep people put a message-sending thing in guile
00:58	brehaut	scb: clojure's web story is very compelling
00:58	scb	ibdknox: just when i thought that compojure was the way to go...
00:58	scb	brehaut: is it? how so?
00:59	ibdknox	it's beautifully succinct
00:59	brehaut	scb: toot toot http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/ring_introduction
01:00	brehaut	(does not include any noir stuff; sorry chris)
01:00	ibdknox	!
01:00	brehaut	ibdknox: noir was either very new or not on my radar when i wrote that. its had already gotten way out of control :P
01:01	S11001001	I hope clojure is ready for the web
01:01	ibdknox	brehaut: haha :)
01:01	ibdknox	S11001001: it is
01:01	brehaut	ibdknox: would you believe i cut stuff from that blog?
01:01	ibdknox	lol
01:01	scb	Well, heh, this is arguably the most biased place to ask :)
01:01	ibdknox	it's a great post
01:02	scottj	scb: according to state of clojure survey 62% of clojurians are using it for web dev
01:02	brehaut	scb: i do django for a day job. django is great, but its also very 2005
01:02	brehaut	ibdknox: thanks
01:02	ibdknox	scb: I've done web dev in all the common languages
01:02	ibdknox	scb: I may be biased, but that's because I know from experience that Clojure is beautiful
01:03	brehaut	scb: in terms of breadth closures web ecosystem is not as complete as python or ruby frinstance, but the tools that are there of a very high quality
01:03	ibdknox	we're missing a solid ORM
01:03	ibdknox	which I started earlier :)
01:03	brehaut	ibdknox: in lets call it a data mapping layer ;)
01:03	brehaut	s/in//
01:03	lazybot	<brehaut> ibdknox: lets call it a data mappg layer ;)
01:03	ibdknox	yes
01:03	scottj	ibdknox: oh so by database layer do you mean only sql?
01:03	ibdknox	not really an ORM
01:04	brehaut	ibdknox: clojureql is very promising though
01:04	scb	brehaut: was just about to ask that. for example i always check for pre-made stuff for common tasks (like authing, users, stuff that has been made over and over and you just reconfigure, you know)
01:05	ibdknox	scottj: it's hard for me to imagine what a database layer that covers more than SQL would look like
01:05	ibdknox	scottj: maybe I'm misunderstanding though
01:05	brehaut	scb: the ring layer provides a lot of commonality
01:06	brehaut	scb: however, very few of the tools prescribe particular data 'types'
01:06	scottj	ibdknox: nosql dbs. see clojurize I think it supported sql and mongo or maybe couch
01:07	ibdknox	scottj: the semantics of something like redis are totally different than SQL
01:07	ibdknox	I would use them in entirely different ways
01:08	scottj	http://anvil.io/posts/clojurize-the-data-not-the-database
01:09	ibdknox	that doesn't appear to solve the thing that's annoying to me
01:09	ibdknox	which is managing relations between tables
01:09	Arafangion	Abstracting the database has other advantages, anyway.
01:10	justinus	hi, I need to consume messages from a JMS Queue….. is there any idiomatic clojure code which uses the standard javax.jms interface ?
01:10	srid	what is the alternative for (for [item items]) that doesn't return the values?
01:10	srid	more like loop
01:10	amalloy	doseq
01:14	jli	ibdknox: well-known fact, clojurians are only biased by truth and beauty :)
01:15	ibdknox	jli: truth
01:16	brehaut	jli: it helps that clojure is young enough that most people who are interested in it have come from at least one other language (and its a broad range of other langues)
01:17	Arafangion	And that such people aren't terrified of lisps.
01:19	scb	Well I guess I'll have to check Clojure for the web eventually. the no solid orm point raised by ibdknox is kind of a put off.
01:19	amalloy	scb: it's hard to have a standard orm when your standard is to not have objects
01:20	ibdknox	yeah, sorry I shouldn't have said ORM
01:21	jli	what's an orm? something that takes SQL queries and returns language-native data structures?
01:21	cark	i think functional programming works well with databases
01:21	brehaut	jli:it stands for object/relational mapping
01:21	ibdknox	from object to table back to object
01:21	companion_cube	jli: objects map to some database table row
01:22	ibdknox	the advantage is primarily that it handles relations for you
01:22	cark	instead of thinking in a object/single row fashion, you think in termns of streams of data
01:22	brehaut	ibdknox, jli: via insurmountable impedance mismatch
01:22	ibdknox	yes
01:22	ibdknox	I firmly believe that ORM is an anti-pattern
01:22	ibdknox	relation management isn't
01:22	jli	ibdknox: how does it handle the relations? do you feed it a schema?
01:23	cark	ibdknox: i agree, but then again i might have given up on these before finding the right one
01:23	Arafangion	Yes - I think ORM gives programmers an excuse NOT to separate the layers.
01:24	ibdknox	for those interested: http://seldo.com/weblog/2011/08/11/orm_is_an_antipattern
01:24	ibdknox	jli: yeah simple relation definitions
01:25	cark	this post was severly flammed on /r/programming
01:25	jli	hum, interesting
01:25	scb	ibdknox: what do you use for databases in clojure?
01:25	ibdknox	https://gist.github.com/1257094
01:25	ibdknox	cark: sure
01:25	ibdknox	cark: some points he brings up are true though
01:26	ibdknox	scb: I screwed around with clj-record
01:26	ibdknox	it works, sort of
01:26	ibdknox	clojureql is neat
01:26	ibdknox	but is missing a lot and tries to be like clojure instead of accurately representing what it is
01:26	ibdknox	I used redis a lot
01:26	cark	i'd love to have a clojureql with a more "functional" interface
01:27	brehaut	ibdknox: thats a good summary of the problems with clojureql.
01:27	cark	i use postgres and sqlite
01:27	ibdknox	cark: what would that look like?
01:27	ibdknox	since I'm starting on this..
01:27	ibdknox	lol
01:27	brehaut	ibdknox: also, the ordering of operations matters sometimes and i inevitably get confused by it
01:27	cark	well
01:27	ibdknox	brehaut: yeah. it could be cleaner
01:28	Arafangion	That said, some ORM's are really useful in providing database abstraction.
01:28	Arafangion	In theory, the code does not depend on the database provider.
01:28	cark	what i'm always doing an half-assed implementation to is this : query building
01:28	ibdknox	cark: so something like this gist? https://gist.github.com/1257094
01:28	Arafangion	In practice, I find writing SQL to be simple enough.
01:28	cark	i would love to have a well thought out way to compose parts of queries
01:29	kevinburke	Hey, have a quick question about http-agent. I can't seem to get it to return properly
01:29	kevinburke	I posted most of the details here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7624686/get-body-of-http-response-in-clojure
01:29	brehaut	Arafangion: the advantage of a layer like clojureql is that it can make your queries composable
01:29	cark	ibdknox: if these are not macros, then yes
01:29	brehaut	Arafangion: e.g. this the select, where, from etc clauses could all come from different functions, and without string bashng
01:29	Arafangion	brehaut: That's pretty cool.
01:30	cark	ibdknox: i don't care about the defentity stuff, i want to make a function that will return a "select object" then use it as part of another select
01:31	cark	ibdknox: or maybe construct the where parts in several functions, then put it all together later
01:31	Arafangion	brehaut: Personally, I think the biggest problem with ORM's is that they try to return instances of dynamically generated classes.
01:32	cark	last time i checked, clojureql was documenting a mostly macro oriented , static queries oriented, interface
01:32	brehaut	Arafangion: its the giant awkwardness of expression that grinds my gears
01:32	cark	it was a while back tho
01:32	brehaut	Arafangion: easy things are easy, hard things are maddenning
01:32	ibdknox	cark: that is the intent of what I'm building
01:33	brehaut	cark: they did scrap the entire thing and rebuild from scratch onto of relational algebra
01:33	ibdknox	cark: select is a macro of convenience, but it has a function behind it to do the same thing
01:33	cark	brehaut: ok well i was "away" for a while, i might have to look back into it
01:33	amalloy	ibdknox: do you actually need sql? i've been using mongodb for all my clojure projects and it's been much simpler
01:33	Arafangion	brehaut: I can agree with that, too.
01:33	cark	ibdknox: make sure to document the functional interface as well as the macro interface
01:34	ibdknox	cark: of course :)
01:34	cark	ibdknox: for any serious work you'll want to fall back to it anyways
01:34	ibdknox	amalloy: result of history, not choice
01:34	Arafangion	OO databases are a fad. :(
01:35	cark	i won't start again on the sql vs nosql stuff, siuffice it to say that sql isn't hard at all, and eliminate most book keeping
01:35	ibdknox	cark: both have their uses :)
01:35	cark	the world is big enough for both, yes
01:36	Arafangion	OO databases are a poor reinvention of heirchical databases.
01:36	cark	oo databases aren't a bad concept
01:36	cark	there is none which is both free and good that i know of
01:38	cark	ibdknox: so what's behind the scene of this syntax you showed us on your gist ?
01:38	ibdknox	a map :)
01:38	cark	yes
01:38	ibdknox	https://gist.github.com/1257106
01:40	cark	i think the defentity stuff shoudl be a completely different layer than the query building stuff
01:42	ibdknox	it's not dependent on it
01:42	cark	brehaut: indeed clojureql is nothing like it was oO
01:43	brehaut	cark: I still use raw SQL for inserts because I've found cql a bit quirky with its insert and update fns
01:43	cark	which raises the question, why doesn't it fit ibdknox' needs ?
01:43	brehaut	(in particular returning last index etc)
01:43	cark	brehaut: ah yes
01:44	cark	does clojureql work with different kind of databases ?
01:44	ibdknox	cark: because it doesn't handle relations, and tries to be clever
01:44	cark	like sqlite/mysql/postgres?
01:44	ibdknox	cark: yes
01:45	brehaut	cark: some crappy clojureql code i wrote: https://github.com/brehaut/burningbot/blob/master/src/burningbot/db.clj
01:50	cark	brehaut: i see your ql/where clause in query-logmarks-for-day
01:51	cark	and i'm wondering how i could compose two of these in a single one
01:51	cark	let's say i would have the start-date and end-date part coming from one function
01:51	cark	then the channel part from another function
01:54	brehaut	cark: i stopped when i got it working
01:54	cark	hehe ok
01:54	brehaut	i agree that it should be nicer ;)
01:55	cark	see a common use case for a query builder is for providing a filtering option to your end-user
01:55	brehaut	to be clear, i got the SQL running quickly in the DB, but porting it to clojureql took some time
01:55	cark	so you want to compose those where clauses in a nice way
01:56	cark	brehaut: well that's to be expected for any dsl, should be easier once you know what you're doing
01:57	cark	think about the common lisp loop macro ... takes a while to know much about it, bu once you do it's very powerfull
01:57	ibdknox	cark: eh, I think cql didn't get to the right level of prettiness
01:57	brehaut	yeah, although, part of the promise of clojureql is that if you can write the SQL, its a straight forward mapping because its the same conceptual model
01:57	Arafangion	Then again, you could do an sql->clojure transformation to give you a hint.
01:57	Arafangion	That involves parsing sql, though.
01:58	cark	hehe yes, the whole problem is with the sql language itself, it's horrible for computer generation
01:58	brehaut	and human generation (unless the human is willing to devote their life to typing)
01:59	cark	why couldn't they choose a lisp syntax, it's beyond me !
01:59	brehaut	cark: committee, lisp doesn't have enough syntax to let everyone get their own fillip in
01:59	Arafangion	Perhaps the problem with SQL is that people use too much of it on the client side.
02:00	cark	Arafangion: what do you mean ?
02:00	Arafangion	Rather than defining views, and other convenient routines on the server side.
02:00	brehaut	views are (historically) out for performance reasons on many smaller SQL DB imps
02:01	cark	think again about my use case, providing filtering options to your end-user ...there is no way around building the sql on the client side
02:01	brehaut	a lot of people went to stored procs but thats a different can of horror
02:01	Arafangion	brehaut: Is performance really a primary consideration for smaller SQL DB's?
02:01	Arafangion	brehaut: If it's an issue, surely, the right place to improve that is in the database implementation?
02:02	brehaut	Arafangion: not everyone can afford a MSQL or oracle license
02:02	Arafangion	There are other alternatives.
02:02	cark	postgres is fast enough, and free
02:02	brehaut	yeah postgres is good
02:02	Arafangion	Exactly.
02:02	brehaut	but if you are using mysql (because for whatever reason you can't get or install pg) you were screwed
02:03	Arafangion	I've never had a good opinion for mySQL, though - although I am using sqlite3, but not because I want a "real" database.
02:03	cark	i never had to use mysql ... that's living a happy life isn't it ?
02:03	Arafangion	And yeah, mySql has never been reputable.
02:04	Arafangion	It's probably a good implementation, but how can you trust a database implementation that claims 'ACID is crap', along with other relational database theories... Without justifying it!?"
02:04	Arafangion	I mean, there's arguably good reasons to avoid ACID, but dammit, justify it!
02:04	brehaut	Arafangion: if you are just building this months hot new blog engine, does it matter? :P
02:04	Arafangion	brehaut: You could use flat files, even.
02:05	cark	i thought there was a mysql backend which is acid complient ? innodb or some such ?
02:05	Arafangion	brehaut: Does it matter? ;)
02:05	Arafangion	cark: There are, but that's besides the point.
02:05	brehaut	Arafangion: yes, relational querying is much easier than multiple flat files when you want to cross cut your data :P
02:05	Arafangion	brehaut: Frankly, I'd probably use sqlite3. :)
02:06	cark	my current project is serverless application, and i'm using sqlite
02:07	cark	lol
02:07	Arafangion	cark: Yeah, sqlite's pretty impressive for what it is.
02:07	cark	Arafangion: do you know if its query planner is any good
02:07	cark	?
02:08	Arafangion	cark: I have no idea, to be honest, I only use it for small databases.
02:08	michaelr525	hey
02:08	Arafangion	cark: It's too implicit for my liking for large stuff.
02:09	cark	what other embedded database is there which are a good fit for clojure ?
02:09	Arafangion	(Heck, it can generate tables on-the-fly without a CREATE TABLE)
02:10	Arafangion	cark: sqlite3's pretty much the choice, these days. There are other alternatives, but while sqlite3 exists, there isn't any point.
02:11	cark	that was my conclusion, but you never know, might have missed something =P
02:12	Arafangion	Keep in mind that I've yet to use or learn clojure... But I think this is a fairly language-agnostic discussion.
02:12	cark	well you have to consider the runtime, we're ont he jvm
02:13	Arafangion	Even so.
02:13	Arafangion	Then again, I'm probably too happy with doing native binding, but that said, I'm sure sqlite3's well supported on the jvm.
02:13	Arafangion	I'm off for some crappy "thai".
02:14	cark	have a good meal
02:14	Arafangion	Thanks. It's "thai" because it does'nt have much fish sauce, soy sauce, chilli, herbs, or other spices.
02:14	Arafangion	It's all... westernised.
02:15	cark	yuk =/
02:15	Arafangion	But at least they don't make the sauce gummy, it's otherwise good. (Although they do add too much sugar)
02:15	cark	it's 8am here, i'm more looking at some croissants =)
02:15	Arafangion	It's 5:15pm here. :)
03:18	justinus	anybody here used clamq?
03:40	michaelr525	justinus: what's that?
04:04	jli	whoo hoo, I'm in the top 100 on 4clojure
04:19	justinus	https://github.com/sbtourist/clamq
04:20	Blafasel	Is clojure-clr a reality (i.e. usable, at least for exploration and tests) or more of an experiment?
04:22	amalloy	jli: congrats dude. now go sign up for a gravatar! we just added that feature
05:05	Blafasel	amalloy: Any plans to increase the session timeout? I often end up doing real work cough, get back, submit something and get the 'please log in to record that' message. The header is still showing my username, so no way to see that I'm logged out before that
05:06	amalloy	Blafasel: it's not actually a session timeout; as far as i know we only break sessions when we deploy a new version
05:06	amalloy	which we did tonight
05:08	Blafasel	Nope, happened just now.
05:08	amalloy	yep
05:09	amalloy	it's 2am here; that counts as tonight to me :P
05:09	Blafasel	Oh. Right :)
05:09	Blafasel	Sorry
05:10	amalloy	well, i'm sorry our deploy involves breaking sessions. if you know how to fix that, let us know with a pull request :)
05:11	cark	amalloy: you should have a bit of advertisement on this web site
05:11	amalloy	never
05:11	cark	something not too intrusive would not be any trouble to your users
05:12	cark	this work is usefull and deserve some reward
05:13	amalloy	there are much less annoying ways to generate revenue than ads. eg, if someone designs some t-shirts for us, we can sell them on zazzle
05:13	cark	well then you still need to advertise them on your site, that's the same thing really
05:14	cark	anyways i don't care, that just popped into my head when visiting the site
05:14	amalloy	well, thanks for your interest
05:25	jli	amalloy: yeah, I noticed. are gravatars keyed on email?
05:25	amalloy	jli: yeah. if you've registered, with gravatar.com, the email address you use on 4clojure, you get an image
05:26	amalloy	they have a nice scheme which enables us to get your image from them without ever sending your email address over a public channel, in case you're worried about that
05:29	jli	amalloy: no, I was just trying to figure out why my gravatar wasn't already showing up.
05:54	thorwil	root-cause is in both clojure.stacktrace and clojure.repl?!
05:54	Blafasel	Huh?
05:55	Blafasel	Looks like I scored _good_ this time in the golf ranking?
06:05	jli	hurray, #70
07:03	Blafasel	Hmm.. :) 183. But makes "work" bearable at least.
07:22	fliebel	How would you write a webmail client in Clojure?
07:23	fliebel	I see 3 routes. One is to talk over SMTP and IMAP to a server, the other option is to interact with the datastore used by the server, the last is to be the server.
07:27	Arafangion	(Not all routes are practical!)
07:30	cark	is there a predicate that will tell is a value is Seqable ?
07:31	cark	,((supers (type [])) clojure.lang.Seqable)
07:31	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Seqable
07:31	cark	something that does what i just did
07:32	kzar	What would be the Enlive selector for the last script tag inside the head? I've got [:head :> :script (last-of-type)] but it's not working
07:35	cark	,(sequential? [1 2 3])
07:35	clojurebot	true
07:35	cark	,(coll? [1 2 3])
07:35	clojurebot	true
07:38	kzar	oh, got it [:head [:script last-of-type]]
07:44	fliebel	Arafangion: Which one are (not) in your opinion?
07:46	kzar	fliebel: I would take the "talk over SMTP and IMAP" option, make an RESTful API that let you do things like send mail and list messages. Then I would make the webmail interface with Javascript
07:46	krl	what is the cleanest way to get a list of a form repeated n times?
07:47	kzar	fliebel: But on the otherhand who am I to decide
07:48	fliebel	kzar: One way to look at it is that HTTP and IMAP are both a V in MVC. Which is how I came to the talk to the datastore option.
07:49	fliebel	kraft: Like... ##(repeat 3 4) ?
07:49	lazybot	⇒ (4 4 4)
07:49	fliebel	*krl
07:51	fliebel	I think writing a custo mail server in Clojure is to painful to even consider.
08:14	Arafangion	fliebel: Bingo.
08:14	Arafangion	fliebel: Actually, the writing of the custom mail server isn't that big a deal.
08:14	Arafangion	fliebel: But running it is.
08:15	fliebel	Arafangion: Why? I imagined the building to be the problem. Esp. IMAP.
08:15	Arafangion	Far from it. :)
08:16	Arafangion	It's the spammers that are - and how the email infrastructure has had to cope with it.
08:22	joelehmann	Hello
08:44	kzar	Is there a way to do a regexp replace of a string, the replace value being a call to a function that takes the matching sub-string?
08:49	dabd	I expected ,(/ 47.8486 100) to return 0.478486
08:49	dabd	,(/ 47,8486 100)
08:49	clojurebot	47/848600
08:50	dabd	,(/ 47,8486 100.0)
08:50	clojurebot	5.538534056092387E-5
08:50	dabd	well the clojurebot returns the result in scientific notation but my repl returns 0.47848599999999997
08:51	dabd	why is it that clojure does not return the exact value 0.478486?
08:51	opqdonut	0.478486 is not representable as a floating point number
08:51	cark	http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html
08:51	cark	oops
08:51	opqdonut	and btw, you shouldn't use , as the separator
08:52	opqdonut	,(/ 1,100 10)
08:52	clojurebot	1/1000
08:52	opqdonut	,(/ 1 100 10)
08:52	clojurebot	1/1000
08:52	opqdonut	"," is just whitespace in clojure
08:52	stoneg	hi, how can I ref to a object in clojure (like I want to create a db connection, then do operations using that connection, how can I do this in clojure)?
08:52	cark	stoneg: do you mena a java object ?
08:52	dabd	opqdonut: is there some way I can obtain the exact value?
08:53	cark	,(/ (rationalize 47.8486) 100)
08:53	clojurebot	239243/500000
08:53	opqdonut	dabd: depends very much on what you mean by "exact value", but for example clojure's rational numbers are exact
08:53	stoneg	no, I come from oo background, not that familiar with functional way of doing this kind of things.
08:54	dabd	well I just wanted to get 0.478486 not a fraction
08:54	opqdonut	representing and printing a number are quite different
08:54	cark	(let [a (String. "hello")] (.toString a))
08:54	cark	now that's a silly example
08:55	cark	but you have the value a, which is bound to the string object
08:55	cark	and you can work with it
08:55	cark	i'm not quite sure that's what you're saking
08:55	cark	asking*
08:55	Chousuke	stoneg: the standard way is to have your procedures take a db connection object as the argument and work on that
08:56	Chousuke	then you just create a db connection and call your procedures
08:56	stoneg	so you mean it's like first set the connection to a var, and then using it like : (operation conn params) ?
08:56	Chousuke	or just use let
08:57	cark	stoneg : yes juste like in java or c#
08:57	cark	but chousuke's way is the most important
08:57	dabd	opqdonut: but shouldn't this return the true? (= (Float/parseFloat "0.478486") (/ (Float/parseFloat "47.8486") 100))
08:57	opqdonut	no
08:57	opqdonut	wait a sec, I'll give you a link
08:58	stoneg	Chousuke: let is for def local bindings , right?
08:58	cark	dabd: you really need to learn about the pitfalls of floating point arithmetics
08:58	opqdonut	dabd: http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html
08:58	Chousuke	stoneg: local binding, yes
08:58	opqdonut	oh, cark pasted that above
08:58	stoneg	Chousuke: But a connection acts as a global thing.
08:58	Chousuke	you can also bind the connection to a global dynamic db variable that is used in procedures
08:58	cark	stoneg: gloal things are evil
08:58	cark	global*
08:59	dabd	opqdonut: looks heavy I'll read it thx
08:59	opqdonut	,(= (float 1.0) (* (/ (float 1.0) (float 3.0)) (float 3.0)))
08:59	clojurebot	true
08:59	Chousuke	or you can use some database library :) clojure has a couple
08:59	cark	first you learn to do without globals, then you break the rule when needed
08:59	opqdonut	,(= (float 1.0) (* (/ (float 1.0) (float 11.0)) (float 11.0)))
08:59	clojurebot	true
08:59	stoneg	cark: Is it ok using curring ?
08:59	opqdonut	hmm, I could've sworn those weren't true
08:59	cark	stoneg: what has currying got to do with that ?
09:00	cark	opqdonut: that's the point, you never know with floating point numbers
09:01	stoneg	cark: sorry, I mean some techniques like using currying to memorize the initialized connection, and do operations against the conn later.
09:01	opqdonut	cark: indeed
09:02	Chousuke	stoneg: what matters is how well you can keep the stateful thing (the connection) separate from the rest of the code
09:02	Chousuke	if the db connection is always an explicit parameter to procedures then it's easier to follow what happens to it
09:02	cark	stoneg: for what it's worth, i'm using clojure.java.jdbc for connections and database interactions, and it is setting a dynamic var up for connections and transactions
09:03	cark	then the actual queries do not require a connection parameter
09:03	cark	as it is in the dynamic scope
09:03	cark	is defined*
09:03	cark	or bound really
09:03	cark	ohwell
09:06	stoneg	cark: http://clojure.org/vars , says Functions defined with defn are stored in Vars, and Vars are global like thing, so is functions evil ?
09:06	stoneg	cark: http://clojure.org/vars , says Functions defined with defn are stored in Vars, and Vars are global like thing, so are functions evil ?
09:06	cark	so in practice : (sql/with-connection db-settings (sql/transaction (with-query-results rs ["select * from blah"] (do-something rs)))
09:07	cark	stoneg: at some point you need some form of global state
09:07	cark	but you're trolling now =)
09:10	stoneg	cark: In the example, it has many level of nesting, will it affect code readability ?
09:10	cark	sorry couldn't properly indent on irc
09:13	cark	https://gist.github.com/1257440
09:13	cark	there you go, see that's not that bad =P
09:15	stoneg	cark: thanks.
09:15	stoneg	cark: but for real code, I saw many nestings that that, like : https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/blob/master/src/clj/zilch/virtual_port.clj
09:16	stoneg	cark: and this: https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm/blob/master/src/clj/backtype/storm/clojure.clj
09:16	cark	it's not so bad
09:16	cark	you may clean that up a bit by decomposing a bit more
09:17	stoneg	cark: I am learning clojure and reading some real code. But it looks to messy (sorry just the feeling as a new functional guy). :-(
09:17	cark	i'm guessing it's all still very alien to you
09:18	stoneg	cark: yes. kinda of.
09:18	cark	to me it's weirder reading java code =)
09:19	stoneg	cark: Actually, I learned lot of FP languages(haskell, erlang, clojure, scala), but not wrote a lot using it in production and real project.
09:19	cark	i've been using common lisp and clojure almost exclusively for 10 years now
09:20	stoneg	cark: Maybe I need use it more, think in functional style, and read more fp code.
09:20	cark	the good way to learn is start a project
09:20	cark	and suck it up until you're done with it =)
09:20	cark	and ask advice
09:20	stoneg	cark: that's cool. I started fp from 2008. first is erlang.
09:21	stoneg	cark: Thanks! very good advice.
12:08	srid	how do I refer java static methods as first class object? this doesn't work: ((comp Integer/valueOf trim) "12 ")
12:09	TimMc	srid: memfn is the old way, but #() is the current idiom
12:09	srid	so this code can't be improved to use comp instead of #() http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7623633/how-do-i-convert-a-string-into-two-integers-in-clojure/7624355#7624355
12:09	TimMc	Integer/valueOf becomes #(Integer/valueOf %)
12:10	TimMc	Right, there's not much you can do.
13:14	mister_roboto	,(seq? [:x])
13:14	clojurebot	false
13:14	mister_roboto	,(seq? '(:x))
13:14	clojurebot	true
13:15	mister_roboto	I thought from reading the docs that a vector is an ISeq. Can someone tell me what I'm not understanding ? Why does the first return false?
13:16	mister_roboto	,(coll? [:x])
13:16	clojurebot	true
13:21	TimMc	mister_roboto: All the collection types as well as seqs are coll? -> true.
13:22	TimMc	Vectors are seqable: ##(seq [1 2 3])
13:22	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
13:23	TimMc	and the reason (seq? '(:x)) is true is that lists are implemented as seqs
13:23	mister_roboto	TimMc: but why does (seq [:x]) for example return false? vectors are not seqs i guess?
13:24	mister_roboto	just seqable?
13:24	TimMc	right
13:24	mister_roboto	ok thx
13:24	TimMc	"seqable" is a confusing topic, though
13:24	TimMc	,(seq? "foo")
13:24	clojurebot	false
13:24	TimMc	,(seq "foo")
13:24	clojurebot	(\f \o \o)
13:26	TimMc	,(seqable? "foo")
13:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seqable? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:27	TimMc	,(use 'clojure.contrib.core)
13:27	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/core__init.class or clojure/contrib/core.clj on classpath: >
13:27	TimMc	,(use 'clojure.contrib)
13:27	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib__init.class or clojure/contrib.clj on classpath: >
13:27	TimMc	bah
13:27	mister_roboto	TimMc: is it safe to say that you should use (coll?) to determine if you have a seqable thing? and not seq?
13:27	TimMc	&(clojure.contrib.core/seqable? "foo")
13:27	lazybot	⇒ true
13:27	TimMc	Use seq: (if (seq foo) ... ...)
13:28	TimMc	Or even better, (if-let [sfoo (seq foo)] ... ...)
13:28	mister_roboto	TimMc: why not just (coll? foo) is there a downsie?
13:28	mister_roboto	if i just want to test it, that is
13:29	TimMc	Usually you want to do something with it.
13:29	mister_roboto	,(coll? '(:x))
13:29	clojurebot	true
13:29	mister_roboto	,(coll? [:x])
13:29	clojurebot	true
13:29	TimMc	If you want to test... well, I'd have to go back and look at the intricacies of seq, seqable, coll?, seq? and ISeq
13:30	TimMc	,(if (seq 5) 'seq 'not-seq)
13:30	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
13:30	mister_roboto	TimMc: sure. np. i need to read up more
13:30	TimMc	Right, so seq blows up on non-seqables.
13:30	TimMc	One of the Clojure experts needs to write a blog post explaining this once and for all. (Or maybe there is a book chapter?)
13:33	TimMc	,(seqable? nil)
13:33	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seqable? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:33	TimMc	&(clojure.contrib.core/seqable? nil)
13:33	lazybot	⇒ true
13:56	dabd	why there is not function to extract a subsequence between two elements. afaik there is only subvec for vectors but there is nothing for lists
13:56	dnolen	huzzah match uses efficient backtracking except in the presence of recur (still efficient in time, just possibly more code for certains kinds of patterns)
13:58	dabd	of course it is trivial to implement with drop/take
13:59	dnolen	dabd: because subvec has a constant time guarantee
13:59	dnolen	,(doc subvec)
13:59	clojurebot	"([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
14:00	dabd	dnolen: yes but sometimes you are working with vectors but when you use a seq function it becomes a list
14:00	Blkt	good evening everyone
14:01	jeremyheiler	Blkt: good afternoon :-)
14:01	Blkt	:)
14:01	dabd	for example ,(map identity [1 2 3]) transforms the vector into a list
14:02	dabd	then you cannot use subvec unless you turn it into a vector with into []. Does 'into' run in constant time or O(n)?
14:03	dnolen	dabd: if you want to keep working w/ vectors put it back into vector. O(n)
14:03	dabd	Then this is somewhat cumbersome
14:03	dnolen	dabd: not saying that the functionality you're talking about is not useful, but it shouldn't be called subvec
14:03	dabd	But why clojure changes the types of objects like this
14:04	dabd	It goes against the referential transparency of functional languages imho
14:04	dnolen	dabd: it doesn't change types, the map is lazy.
14:04	dabd	but map turns the vector into a list
14:05	dnolen	dabd: not a list, a lazy sequence.
14:05	dabd	but a lazy sequence is not a vector
14:06	dabd	so i guess the original type changed
14:06	dnolen	dabd: consider why map has to be lazy - Clojure doesn't have TCO
14:07	pbiggar	hi folks, quick question: from within noir/defpage, how can I get access to a user's session id?
14:07	glob157	seven programming languages in seven weeks is the best book on clojure ive read (im new) ... do you guys agree ?
14:08	glob157	\
14:08	dabd	well at least a map-vec would be useful to avoid the O(n) into [] every time you use map on a vector and need a vector afterwards
14:08	dnolen	dabd: if map wasn't lazy, you would still need to construct the new vector - O(n)
14:08	dnolen	if you wrote a loop/recur that updated vector in place, stlll O(n)
14:09	dnolen	dabd: so you either want subvec, or you want something new for sequences that does something similar which doesn't have O(1) guarantee
14:10	dabd	dnolen: but if the mapping function preserved the type you would traverse the structure once not twice, once for the 'map' and another one for 'into'
14:10	dnolen	dabd: lazy sequences
14:10	dnolen	dabd: there is only one traversal.
14:12	dabd	dnolen: ok thx
14:13	zerokarmaleft	glob157: i haven't read that book, but i imagine the coverage is pretty light
14:14	chouser	dnolen: in the abstract, backtracking is sometimes less fast, right?
14:14	zerokarmaleft	glob157: Joy of Clojure is great if you're looking to go deeper
14:15	dnolen	chouser: a backtrack is equal to longjmp, I haven't seen any discernible performance difference. And for complex pattern, there's a massive performance gain, since JVM refuses to inlining magic on large methods.
14:15	chouser	dnolen: very interesting!
14:16	chouser	I assumed backtracking would mean checking the same input element multiple times. Hard to see how that's not slower.
14:18	dnolen	chouser: the algorithm groups as many patterns as possible for testing them together.
14:18	dnolen	[1 2 3] [1 3 4] [1 & r] grouped together for testing, if that fails, we backtrack like to something completely different.
14:19	chouser	so tries to fail fast on each group
14:19	dnolen	chouser: it's tougher with guards (arbitrary tests), where grouping is less clear. I need to work that out still.
14:19	clojurebot	Ok.
14:20	dnolen	but mostly likely guards will involve retesting a element.
14:21	chouser	sounds great. We've got a project at work that I think might benefit a lot from match. Hoping to try it this week or next.
14:23	dnolen	chouser: cool! would love to hear your input. There's still a lot of details left, but I think the big picture stuff is falling into place.
14:24	TimMc	Shouldn't (vec (seq some-vector)) be O(1)?
14:25	TimMc	I would assume that vec could peek at the seq's implementation and see that it is backed by a vec.
14:26	Chousuke	I don't think that's really an issua :/
14:26	Chousuke	how often will you seq a vector and then immediately make it a vector again?
14:26	chouser	TimMc: it potentially could be, and I wouldn't be shocked if someday Clojure has that kind of thing built in. But not today.
14:27	TimMc	Chousuke: I'll get back to you on that. :-)
14:27	chouser	Hm, actually, maybe Chousuke's right.
14:27	chouser	I was thinking it might happen across different function-call boundaries.
14:28	Chousuke	yes, it might happen, but I don't think it's very likely
14:28	chouser	but to happen would require something to call seq (but nothing else -- not map, take, drop, anything) and return that.
14:28	TimMc	hmm
14:28	chouser	maybe (drop-while odd? [2 3 4])
14:29	TimMc	Would it be bad for (drop (seq some-vector)) to maintain the backing vector?
14:29	Chousuke	maybe clojure will some day have lazyvectors :P
14:30	TimMc	I guess the feasabiity would depend on how much the implementing seq is asked to do.
14:30	Chousuke	so when you do (vecmap foo somevector) you get back a vector instantly but the calculation only happens when you index the vector
14:30	chouser	TimMc: what if the first element in the vector is a really large object that you're specifically trying to GC?
14:30	gtrak``	didn't it have lazy vecs at some point? or a placeholder at least?
14:30	TimMc	Right, that's what I'm worried about.
14:30	chouser	today you could say (vec (next the-vec))
14:31	TimMc	Whereas subvec would not allow GC of out-of-range portions of the backing vec.
14:31	chouser	gtrak``: no, it had a thing that would act like a vector while holding a backing array, and then if you used assoc or conj it would then create a real vector.
14:31	chouser	not really lazy in the lazy-seq sense.
14:32	gtrak``	ah
14:32	TimMc	It would be cute if a vector could know just how much of itself was accessible and could wipe the out-of-range portions.
14:33	TimMc	I guess then you'd be getting into the GC business.
14:35	dnolen	pushing match-0.2.0-alpha1 out the door
15:02	kencausey	dnolen: yay!
15:43	Bronsa	dnolen: wouldn't it be better if clojure.core.match.core was clojure.core.match?
15:43	dnolen	Bronsa: hmm not a bad idea
15:44	Bronsa	i find it annoying to write core twice in a ns
15:45	Bronsa	anyway, i'd like to thank you for your excellent work :)
15:55	ibdknox	+1 for removing the extra core :)
16:02	ibdknox	dnolen: awesome! :D
16:07	srid	has anyone used core.match with enlive?
16:15	srid	(first (.getBytes "’")) returns -43. to convert that to a byte, I do this: (apply str (reverse (take 8 (reverse (Integer/toBinaryString -43)))))
16:15	srid	is that too much?
16:18	TimMc	What does that get you?
16:19	raek_	srid: you want it in binary form?
16:19	srid	that gets me "11010101"
16:19	srid	i'm playing with char encoding conversions in clojure/java
16:20	srid	enlive has a bug where it always reads a URL as utf-8
16:20	srid	but a webpage is encoded in ISO/IEC 8859-2
16:20	S11001001	getBytes takes an encoding arg, and String has a bytes[], encoding constructor
16:20	raek_	,(Byte/toString -43 2)
16:20	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: toString, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:20	raek_	,(Byte/toString (byte -43) (int 2))
16:20	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: toString, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:21	duck1123	toString only takse 1 param according to the javadoc I'm looking at
16:21	S11001001	,(String. (byte-array [-43]) "ISO-8859-2")
16:21	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.lang.Byte>
16:21	raek_	srid: aren't URLs always suposed to be in UTF-8?
16:21	S11001001	cute
16:21	srid	S11001001: ok, am I right in thinking that the java String also 'remembers' the original encoding of the string?
16:21	S11001001	srid: no.
16:21	srid	IOW, is the constant inside the form, and the value returned by it different? (String. (.getBytes "’" "UTF-8") "UTF-8")
16:21	S11001001	a string is an array of codepoints, encoded in UTF-16
16:22	S11001001	(not the same as ucs2, by the way)
16:22	duck1123	,(Byte/parseByte "-43")
16:22	clojurebot	-43
16:22	raek_	,(Integer/toBinaryString -43)
16:22	clojurebot	"11111111111111111111111111010101"
16:22	S11001001	so some codepoints actually take two chars
16:22	S11001001	maybe 3, I forget
16:22	srid	raek_: i was referring the page content, not page url
16:22	raek_	,(subs (Integer/toBinaryString -43) 24 32)
16:22	clojurebot	"11010101"
16:23	S11001001	,42b
16:23	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 42b>
16:23	S11001001	haven't used 1.3 enough yet
16:23	raek_	srid: enlive uses some "magic" to recognize the coding of the page. I think you can give it a reader with the correct encoding specified manually
16:24	raek_	,11010101r2
16:24	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 11010101r2>
16:24	raek_	,2r11010101
16:24	clojurebot	213
16:24	S11001001	,(String. (to-array Byte/TYPE [-43]) "ISO-8859-2")
16:24	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$to-array>
16:24	srid	,(seq (.getBytes "’" "UTF-16"))
16:24	clojurebot	(-2 -1 32 25)
16:24	srid	(seq (.getBytes "’" "ISO 8859-2"))
16:25	S11001001	missed a hyphen and a comma
16:25	srid	(seq (.getBytes "’" "ISO-8859-2"))
16:25	srid	works for me in repl. what comma?
16:25	srid	it returns (63)
16:25	S11001001	,(seq (.getBytes "’" "ISO-8859-2"))
16:25	clojurebot	(63)
16:25	srid	oh
16:25	kij	,(clojure-version)
16:25	clojurebot	"1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
16:25	raek_	,(seq "åäö")
16:25	clojurebot	(\å \ä \ö)
16:26	S11001001	uri, incidentally, doesn't proscribe your charset choices
16:26	S11001001	though even at the character it must be aware of the encoding you intend to use so it can urlencode/decode correctly
16:26	S11001001	s,character,character level,
16:27	srid	so how do I read a file encoded in "ISO-8859-2" into a string that uses utf-8/16 codepoints??
16:27	lazybot	srid: Definitely not.
16:27	srid	i didn't enter the second ?
16:27	raek_	srid: ideally, a string is not in any coding
16:27	S11001001	srid: clojure.java.io/reader lets you specify the input encoding
16:27	TimMc	srid: InputReader or somesuch allows an encoding
16:27	raek_	it is just a sequence of characters
16:28	raek_	in java/clojure, this is true for characters in the Basic Multilingual Plane (code points below 65536)
16:28	srid	https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/enlive_html.clj#L36 is hardcoding utf-8
16:29	S11001001	yeah, people tend to do that
16:29	srid	i need to pass a stream that is encoded in utf8, not some other encoding
16:29	raek_	srid: where you write the filename, you should be able to pass something like (io/reader "filename" :encoding "ISO-8859-2")
16:30	srid	ok, this is how I am using enlive's html-resource: (html-resource (InputStreamReader. (FileInputStream. url) "ISO-8859-2"))
16:30	srid	but that doesn't help at all.
16:31	srid	does InputStreamReader "decode" the url content and stream a sequence of characters to html-resource?
16:31	raek_	yes
16:31	raek_	InputStream = bytes
16:31	raek_	Readerr = chars
16:31	S11001001	do you mean the %things?
16:32	raek_	InputStreamReader = bridge between the two
16:32	raek_	srid: your row should be equivalent to (html-resource (io/reader (io/as-file url) :encoding "ISO-8859-2")
16:33	raek_	but since the argument is called "url", I'm gettings suspicious that it's actually not a filename but a url... :-)
16:33	srid	its file:// url for now
16:34	srid	html-resources returns a map that contains strings. when I copy paste the subset of that string in to repl, i see the .getBytes on that character returns -43
16:34	raek_	you might need to pass it as (io/reader (io/as-url url) ...) then
16:34	srid	which means, .getBytes somehow "knows" that it is supposed to return bytes encoded in "ISO-8859-2"
16:34	raek_	srid: what did you pass as the encoding argument to .getBytes?
16:35	srid	nothing
16:35	raek_	if you did not pass any encoding argument, it guesses
16:35	raek_	and defaults to whatever is the "default encoding" of your platform
16:35	srid	why should it guess at all when getBytes is passed a string (character stream) as opposed to bytes?
16:35	raek_	you should never use this "default encoding"
16:35	srid	default encoding is certainly not "ISO-8859-2" which is the file's encoding
16:36	raek_	imho, that method (without the encoding parameter) is broken and should be deprecated
16:36	raek_	srid: to see what characters are in a string, use 'seq' to look at them individually, or (map int ...) to see their codepoints
16:36	srid	(System/getProperty "file.encoding") returns "MacRoman", btw
16:37	raek_	in this case, no encoding of the string is done. all you see is the characters.
16:37	raek_	,(map int "abcåäö")
16:37	clojurebot	(97 98 99 229 228 ...)
16:38	raek_	,(.getBytes "abcåäö" "UTF-8")
16:38	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@9f2146>
16:38	raek_	,(seq (.getBytes "abcåäö" "UTF-8"))
16:38	clojurebot	(97 98 99 -61 -91 ...)
16:38	srid	,(map int "’")
16:38	clojurebot	(8217)
16:39	srid	i'll write a simple program with data file to reproduce my problem.
16:43	srid	how do I find the default encoding used by InputStreamReader?
16:43	srid	(System/getProperty "file.encoding"). yup. MacRoman is it. and it is screwing up files that are utf8 encoded as well
16:46	ibdknox	Noir 1.2.0 is out :D
16:46	ibdknox	https://github.com/ibdknox/noir/blob/master/history.md
16:48	cgroza	I see you have a pretty big community...
16:49	cgroza	clojurebot:
16:49	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: [Ljava.lang.Object; cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.String;>
16:56	dnolen	wow throw is cheap in JS if you don't construct an error
16:58	ibdknox	Help me get the word out about Clojure web stuff and comment/vote: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3063973 :)
16:58	dnolen	done
16:58	brehaut	done
16:59	ibdknox	Thanks gentlemen :)
17:00	dnolen	releasing core.match 0.2.0-alpha2, ClojureScript support in
17:01	brehaut	dnolen: excellent :)
17:02	ibdknox	Happy release day haha
17:10	ibdknox	having a server agnostic framework is pretty damn cool
17:10	ibdknox	here's noir running on aleph (and thus Netty)
17:10	ibdknox	https://gist.github.com/1257857
17:17	wink	cool. upvoted :)
17:21	ibdknox	now time to work on korma
17:25	brehaut	dnolen: would i be right in assuming that predicate dispatch would make a url routing library (eg moustache) trivial to write?
17:27	dnolen	brehaut: probably haven't really dug into that use case.
17:33	brehaut	ibdknox: re your common on the HN thread, has noir overtaken compojure for community activity?
17:34	brehaut	s/common/comment/
17:34	lazybot	<brehaut> ibdknox: re your comment on the HN thread, has noir overtaken compojure for community activity?
17:34	brehaut	amalloy: how can i get added to the regexp exclusion list for lazybot?
17:34	amalloy	brehaut: ask me or Raynes nicely; there's no user-facing way atm. i'll make it so
17:35	Raynes	amalloy: Call it the whiner-list.
17:35	Raynes	So that we can be polite and snarky at the same time.
17:35	amalloy	good call
17:36	amalloy	$login
17:36	lazybot	You've been logged in.
17:36	amalloy	$reload
17:36	lazybot	Reloaded successfully.
17:36	amalloy	$logout
17:36	lazybot	You've been logged out.
17:36	amalloy	brehaut: fire away
17:36	brehaut	foobar
17:36	brehaut	s/foo/baz/
17:36	ibdknox	brehaut: I think they're about equal, I've been getting messages a tad bit more frequently on the noir group than compojure lately, but I don't think there's a clear winner
17:36	brehaut	awesome, thanks
17:37	amalloy	wait, now i'm confused. should i spam the noir group to make it more popular than compojure, or because i want to annoy people reading it?
17:38	ibdknox	readies*
17:47	amalloy	ibdknox: accidentally ban yourself from #clojure?
17:47	brehaut	dropped the ban hammer on his foot
17:47	ibdknox	amalloy: got a little overzealous with the hammer ;)
17:48	ibdknox	or I forgot to plug my computer in... turns out it will shutoff if you don't
17:49	brehaut	ibdknox: #2 on the HN front page
17:50	ibdknox	I was #1 until just a couple minutes ago
17:50	ibdknox	:)
17:50	brehaut	sorry to be the bearer of bad news then
17:50	ibdknox	More exposure for Clojure! :D
17:50	ibdknox	wow
17:50	ibdknox	I hate the way that sounds
17:50	brehaut	ha
17:58	Twey	Expojure
17:58	Twey	That's going to be a library at some point…
17:59	ibdknox	I think leiningen actually prevents you from creating projects that are *jure
17:59	ibdknox	:D
17:59	TimMc	yep
17:59	TimMc	I think I approve of that.
18:00	Zolrath	ibdknox: There's something wrong with the pinot on clojars methinks
18:00	ibdknox	oh?
18:00	Zolrath	whenever I try to compile with it it tells me that pinot.dom was never provided
18:00	Twey	Nice.
18:00	Twey	So how did Compojure happen? :þ
18:00	TimMc	Grandfathered in.
18:00	Zolrath	but I downloaded the source and compiled it myself earlier and if I use that copy it works
18:00	ibdknox	Zolrath: yes it is screwed up
18:00	Twey	Haha.
18:01	TimMc	http://clojars.org/jrill <- I'm ashamed to admit that I'm responsible for this name
18:01	ibdknox	haha
18:01	TimMc	It was a throwaway joke when someone asked for a name, but no one else had any suggestions..
18:01	ibdknox	tsk tsk :p
18:02	ibdknox	I can't say much, I just keep picking food names
18:02	Twey	Pinot is food now?
18:02	TimMc	I'm going to start using species names.
18:02	TimMc	(and variants on them)
18:03	ibdknox	Zolrath: should be fixed
18:03	TimMc	I picked "chelydra" (snapping turtle) for a personal bookmarking site.
18:03	ibdknox	Twey: Pinot noir
18:03	Twey	Yes
18:03	Twey	Drink ≠ food
18:03	Twey	Food substitute, sometimes, but not food :þ
18:03	ibdknox	lol
18:04	ibdknox	Twey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food
18:04	ibdknox	incorrect ;)
18:04	ibdknox	the internets says so
18:05	Twey	Haha.Haha
18:06	wink	ibdknox: some caveat? I just noticed, maybe it's documented or intended, but I forgot to do a models.clj (like in noir_blog) but :require'ing the models and the result (FileNotFoundException for resources\public (Access Denied)) left me very clueless
18:07	ibdknox	wink: hm? those two things don't sound related
18:07	ibdknox	wink: the resources/public issues is usually the result of not having any routes defined
18:07	ibdknox	I should fix that in compojure
18:07	amalloy	TimMc: jrill? i don't get it
18:07	TimMc	drill
18:07	TimMc	It's an XPath wrapper.
18:08	TimMc	Breaking out of the standard s->j transform.
18:08	wink	ibdknox: basically the same code you looked at yesterday, just with another :require to a file in the models namespace
18:09	wink	then I put a models.clj next to server.clj with just (ns x.models (:require [x.models.y :as y])) and it worked
18:09	ibdknox	hm
18:09	ibdknox	that shouldn't be necessary
18:13	ibdknox	wink: what you just described would be an issue at the Clojure level, I don't do any special stuff with require. If you come up with a small repro for it, I'll gladly look into it
18:13	wink	ibdknox: yup, trying just now
18:22	ibdknox	woah, what happened ther?
18:22	ibdknox	there*
18:24	TimMc	Netsplit?
18:25	Zolrath	ibdknox: the pinot snapshot it pulls still gives the same pinot.dom error
18:25	ibdknox	Zolrath: did you remove the cached copy in ~/.m2/
18:25	ibdknox	?
18:25	ibdknox	Zolrath: it only checks for updates once a day
18:25	Zolrath	yeah
18:25	ibdknox	hm
18:25	ibdknox	ok
18:26	ibdknox	Zolrath: which version of pinot?
18:27	Zolrath	Downloading: pinot/pinot/0.1.0-SNAPSHOT/pinot-0.1.0-20110809.143608-17.jar from clojars
18:27	ibdknox	you need 0.1.1
18:27	ibdknox	Zolrath: fixing readme now
18:28	Zolrath	Ah, thanks
18:28	Zolrath	0.1.1, no snapshot?
18:28	ibdknox	Zolrath: sorry, 0.1.1-SNAPSHOT
18:29	Zolrath	And all is well again, working great.
18:54	wink	ibdknox: gah, ofc it was just me bein stupid, there was a ] missing after the last require. But why creating the models.cls with that missing import inside it fixed it instead of still erroring out due to syntax error.. no clue
18:55	ibdknox	lol
18:55	ibdknox	wink: those sorts of errors are really, really finicky
18:55	wink	on the plus side, I've read the noir_blog source from top to bottom now
18:56	ibdknox	hehe
21:30	brehaut	just watched brenton ashworth's browser repl intro video (http://vimeo.com/29535884) thats fantastic stuff
21:43	sjl	Is Marginalia supposed to pick up docstrings and comments inside functions?
21:47	amalloy	docstrings inside functions?
21:47	sjl	amalloy: yep
21:48	amalloy	...what would that look like?
21:48	sjl	amalloy: looks like it's not just me being dumb for a change :) https://github.com/fogus/marginalia/issues/57
21:49	sjl	amalloy: like this: http://fogus.me/fun/marginalia/ for this: https://github.com/fogus/marginalia/blob/master/src/marginalia/core.clj#L92
21:52	amalloy	i would just describe those as docstrings. docstrings inside functions sound like they must be something else. but anyway, sounds like a bug; go fix it! :)
21:54	sjl	amalloy: ahh, heh, "... pick up (docstrings) and (comments inside functions)"
21:54	sjl	stupid english language
22:15	scottj	reading a cljs article says using namespace name as function or param name is a problem. if your ns is foo.bar.tar what can't you use, foo or tar?
22:16	amalloy	scottj: tar, i think
22:16	amalloy	er, maybe not. i have no experience, don't listen to me
22:17	amalloy	ask Raynes, in fact
22:18	Raynes	scottj: I don't know exactly how it works, but I had a project called 'portal' and my namespaces were 'portal.foo', wherein I had a 'portal' function that made the word explode.
22:18	Raynes	Therefore, I say that amalloy is likely incorrect here.
23:12	dzderic	is there any way I can run a compojure from a shared hosting account with only JSP enabled?
23:13	dzderic	sorry if it's a stupid question but I know nothing about JSP
23:14	brehaut	dzderic: im going to be guessing here, but i believe that JSP is ontop of / compiles to servlets. Servlets is the most basic requirement you need to host a ring based app (which a compojure site is)
23:14	brehaut	JSPs themselves dont really feature in the clojure web stack
23:15	dzderic	I know that much, it's just that I'm doing work for a client and it must be hosted on their shared hosting account
23:15	dzderic	I found a script which starts swank (here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/71209), but I'm not sure if I can do something similar to run the actual webapp
23:15	ibdknox	there's a good chance that they will have locked down a bunch of stuff
23:17	ibdknox	dzderic: can you upload a war to it?
23:17	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
23:17	ibdknox	clojurebot: shutup
23:17	clojurebot	Huh?
23:17	ibdknox	clojurebot: smack
23:17	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
23:17	ibdknox	hm
23:17	amalloy	~botsmack
23:17	clojurebot	Owww!
23:17	dzderic	ibdknox: I'm not sure because the account hasn't been set up yet
23:17	ibdknox	ah
23:17	dzderic	ibdknox: how does this sort of thing normally work?
23:18	ibdknox	which sort of thing? hosting a clojure website?
23:18	dzderic	JSP
23:18	dzderic	I've used compojure with jetty and tomcat
23:18	ibdknox	I have no idea, I stayed as far away from JSP as I possibly could
23:19	dzderic	fair enough
23:19	dzderic	I'll ask the hosting company
23:20	mrh0057	If you want to do hosting on the JVM you probably want to have a vertical dedicated server.
23:20	dzderic	unfortunately the client wants it done on their shared hosting
23:21	dzderic	if I can't get compojure working, I guess I'll have to go with (shudder) PHP
23:21	brehaut	wee bit of a step down there
23:21	mrh0057	There can be problems that can cause the container to crash then you have to wait for the hosting company to reset it.
23:21	dzderic	:S that doesn't sound pleasant
23:21	ibdknox	in general, shared hosting is scary with something as memory intensive as java
23:22	gtrak``	dzderic, if they have a servlet hosting, you can most likely aot-compile stuff and build a WAR
23:22	dzderic	I just sent them an email asking if I can just upload a war (I really hope the answer is yes :)
23:22	amalloy	brehaut: linode ftw
23:23	dzderic	brehaut: good luck finding something as good in australia
23:23	brehaut	dzderic: im in new zealand
23:23	gtrak``	i mess around with virpus, it's hella cheap
23:23	dzderic	then have fun with the latency
23:23	gtrak``	512MB at $4/month
23:24	brehaut	the entire internet has latency for me, and this way the majority of the visitors to my site dont experience any :P
23:24	mrh0057	dzderic: The most import thing is being able to restart the container yourself.
23:24	brehaut	gtrak``: thats cheap
23:24	gtrak``	hells yea it is
23:24	amalloy	brehaut: maybe he means disk space. only 640k of RAM
23:24	brehaut	amalloy: i looked at linode, i understand that its better than prgmr (faster io in particular) but its not as cheap
23:24	ibdknox	lol
23:24	dzderic	gtrak11: but does it work?
23:24	gtrak``	I wouldn't use it for anything serious, but I use it for a personal site
23:24	gtrak``	dzderic, sure
23:25	gtrak``	i think like 40GB of disk and you have root access
23:25	dzderic	mrh0057: I'll ask and see how much access I can get
23:25	mrh0057	dzderic: If you deploy multiple time in tomcat, the jvm can run out of permspace.
23:25	brehaut	amalloy: 640k should be enough for anyone
23:25	amalloy	brehaut: yeah, linode is charging a premium. mostly for reliability and customer service, i thought
23:25	brehaut	amalloy: im sure; prgmr is bare bones. although their customer service has been completely adequate for my needs
23:25	gtrak``	like i said... if you just want to mess around with something virpus is totally cheap, or heroku if you don't care about disk
23:26	amalloy	my linode is almost a year old now. crashed once, brief network outages maybe three times
23:26	brehaut	amalloy: thats about the same as my prgmr
23:26	amalloy	and it's hosting lazybot, 4clojure, tryclojure, and a few personal websites without breaking a sweat
23:26	ibdknox	I've only had one issue on EC2
23:26	brehaut	nice. mines only hosting my site and burningbot
23:27	amalloy	brehaut: what is this "burningbot"?
23:27	brehaut	amalloy: i pay about $9/mo for 512mb ram, 12gig of disk
23:27	brehaut	amalloy: its an irc bot for the burning wheel rpg channel on a different server
23:27	brehaut	amalloy: built on raynes irclj
23:28	ibdknox	I was surprised how easy it was to build and IRC bot from scratch
23:28	brehaut	likewise
23:28	ibdknox	an*
23:28	amalloy	we have 1.5gb ram, 60gb disk. $60/mo but who cares, right
23:28	brehaut	(at least if you leave the arrows out of it ;)
23:28	ibdknox	the protocol is stupid simple
23:28	Raynes	ibdknox: Mostly just stupid.
23:29	brehaut	Raynes: lol
23:29	ibdknox	Raynes: haha, true
23:29	gtrak``	if i'm expecting to make money off of something, obviously i'll pay more than $4 a month :-)
23:29	Raynes	A million and one edge cases.
23:29	brehaut	gtrak``: likewise :)
23:29	brehaut	Raynes: whats with you trying to implement libs for shitty protocols? irc, xmlrpc
23:30	Raynes	Just wanted 'em.
23:30	brehaut	Raynes: for your own sake, dont try to write a soap lib
23:30	Raynes	Luckily, somebody else write an xmlrpc lib that deprecated mine.
23:30	brehaut	so not a masochist then
23:30	brehaut	haha what a tool
23:31	brehaut	(him, not you)
23:32	brehaut	Raynes: ironically when i search for clojure xmlrpc your lib is ranked higher by google
23:33	Raynes	That's because he opted for a clever name while I recognize that the inherent boringness of the protocol isn't worthy of a clever name.
23:33	jli	oh noes, 4clojure problems?
23:34	jli	getting "502 Bad Gateway". amalloy: friendly ping :)
23:34	amalloy	jli: yeah, thanks. i actually had noticed already, but usually i don't
23:35	Raynes	brehaut: I am a masochist.
23:35	Raynes	brehaut: I do not, under any circumstances, know any Python. That said, I've spent the last 4 hours writing a sublime text 2 plugin for Clojure (it supports highlighting, but I'm adding fun stuff like evaluation).
23:35	amalloy	we have several components that probably consume memory without bound. would love to see some of those replaced :P. anyway jli, back up
23:36	brehaut	Raynes: huh? whats hard about python?
23:36	Raynes	Nothing. The problem is that sublime text's API is utter undocumented.
23:36	jli	brehaut: you have to remember to type "return" at the end of all your functions
23:36	Raynes	utterly*
23:37	jli	amalloy: woot, thanks
23:37	brehaut	jli: i have to remember to put the paren after the first identifier :P
23:37	amalloy	brehaut: i don't think he said it was hard. he just said he didn't know any
23:37	amalloy	i think remembering return is trickier
23:38	technomancy	explicit return is such a goof
23:38	brehaut	Raynes: that sounds like most python except for some of django
23:38	technomancy	newbie mistake among language designers
23:38	brehaut	technomancy: not as much of a goof as non anon functions
23:38	ibdknox	hashmaps in JS are what always screw me up, stupid trailing colon
23:38	brehaut	s/non/no/
23:39	jli	amalloy: I seriously blow between 30 seconds to 10 minutes on that every time I do anything in python, because I've forgotten it by the time I have to write python again
23:39	amalloy	technomancy: more important feature for imperative language, right?
23:39	brehaut	technomancy: and mutable iterators.
23:39	technomancy	brehaut: I dunno; explicit return is usually caused by a statement/value distinction
23:39	technomancy	which really betrays a lack of exposure to good languages
23:40	jli	ibdknox: trailing colon, hmm? you mean trailing commas?
23:40	ibdknox	{mykey: "hey"}
23:40	ibdknox	instead of {:mykey "hey"}
23:40	amalloy	jli: {foo: 1} vs {:foo 1}
23:40	technomancy	it's actually more work to introduce a statement/value distinction
23:40	technomancy	you have to actively screw it up
23:40	jli	oh, haha
23:41	technomancy	lack of λ is a simple omission
23:41	brehaut	technomancy: i'll give you that, but the iterators are still busted
23:42	technomancy	brehaut: sure... I haven't actually used iterators.
23:42	ibdknox	there are a number of things busted in python, ever try to make a decorator that takes a parameter?
23:42	ibdknox	lol
23:42	jli	seems like people are done with messing up scoping
23:42	brehaut	ibdknox: hahaha
23:42	jli	oh, except for js :(:(:(:(:(
23:44	brehaut	technomancy: to get a value out of the iterator you have to call next, theres no current value, and the iterator throws an exception to indicate that its done. your fine if you can use a comprehension, for… or itertools, but you are hosed otherwise.
23:44	brehaut	its a perfect storm of bad mutation
23:45	technomancy	brehaut: people actually do this?
23:45	napping	sounds like Java Iterators
23:46	brehaut	technomancy: yes :(
23:48	jli	truly excellent: http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html
23:49	ibdknox	brehaut: they want the lowest possible barrier to entry. For many rails turned into that
23:49	Raynes	brehaut: Also, if you set something to read-only, apparently not even your own plugin code can write to it.
23:49	Raynes	Something that I just spent about 30 minutes debugging.
23:50	brehaut	ibdknox: rails is a low barrier to entry‽
23:50	ibdknox	Raynes: I was playing with sublime text 2 today
23:50	ibdknox	brehaut: It was, but less so now
23:51	Raynes	ibdknox: This has been editorweek for me. I've learned to use Vim, gotten bored, and now I'm screwing with Sublime Text.
23:51	brehaut	ibdknox: ive never learnt rails; more ceremony than a church
23:51	ibdknox	brehaut: Rails popularized scaffolding, which was a site in a box :)
23:51	brehaut	ibdknox: yeah, djangos similar with its models + admin magics
23:51	Raynes	ibdknox: I'd use Sublime Text, but no paredit makes me cringe. I no longer understand how to write Clojure code without it.
23:51	ibdknox	Raynes: I couldn't deal with the fact that it indented incorrectly
23:51	Raynes	My finger don't work this way.
23:51	ibdknox	lol
23:52	Raynes	What doesn't it indent properly?
23:52	Raynes	It doesn't seem to do much in the way of auto-indent at all.
23:52	ibdknox	pretty much anything
23:52	brehaut	technomancy: does emacs easily support having scoped modes within a file yet?
23:53	Raynes	brehaut: What editor do you use?
23:53	brehaut	Raynes: i hate emacs and textmate in equal quantities; i hate all other editors in larger quantities
23:53	Raynes	That is wonderfully vague.
23:53	ibdknox	vim is still my favorite :D
23:53	Raynes	But I'm guessing that means you use Emacs and/or textmate?
23:54	brehaut	Raynes: both
23:54	ibdknox	that's mostly because I can't convince myself to be at 10% efficiency for a couple weeks to learn emacs
23:54	brehaut	emacs for clojure, textmate for python + js
23:54	cemerick	brehaut: I'm stealing that answer, and just replacing the particulars. :-)
23:54	brehaut	cemerick: hah awesome :)
23:54	brehaut	cemerick: which one becomes eclipse?
23:55	Raynes	ibdknox: My experiments with Vim have led me to not hate it. That said, editing Clojure with it is as much of a pain as doing it with Sublime for me, because I have to switch to command-mode to do paredit commands, and I always forget where my leader character is on my blank keyboard.
23:55	Raynes	I'm giving it all time though.
23:55	Raynes	I'm just happy that I don't care about swank anymore and don't have to deal with that crap.
23:55	ibdknox	Raynes: you could map those commands to something in insert mode
23:56	cemerick	that wasn't supposed to happen
23:56	Raynes	Yeah, but I might have to learn VimScript.
23:56	cemerick	,(format "i hate %s and %s in equal quantities; i hate all other editors in larger quantities" "eclipse" "sublime text")
23:56	clojurebot	"i hate eclipse and sublime text in equal quantities; i hate all other editors in larger quantities"
23:57	cemerick	jrabbit: it's the duplo of string interpolation in clojure :-)
23:57	cemerick	(just FYI)
23:57	ibdknox	speaking of... you performance people, should I resort to a stringbuilder to get efficient string concatenation?
23:57	jrabbit	cemerick: I don't know what that is but it works like python string formatting which is nice
23:57	brehaut	cemerick: the giant brightly colored blocks of string interpolation?
23:58	cemerick	ibdknox: StringBuilder
23:58	ibdknox	k, that's what I figured :(
23:58	cemerick	oooh, I'm tired enough that I thought ibdknox wrote 'StringBuffer"
23:58	ibdknox	lol :p
23:59	cemerick	brehaut: the not-very-powerful, not-very-flexible, but anyone-can-understand-it approach.
23:59	brehaut	cemerick: aha, whats the technic version?