#clojure – 2011-09-30

2011-09-30

00:00	Zolrath	Hm I'm trying to use Google Closure like JQuery and I don't know if that's a good idea
00:00	amalloy	cark: you can only adjust reflection warnings around top-level forms, because they are compiled as a unit
00:00	cark	amalloy: that's unfortunate =(
00:01	cark	my problem is with proxy-super
00:01	cark	it always gives warnings
00:01	cark	so i need to expand it to proxy-call-with-super
00:01	cark	and manually anotate it
00:01	Zolrath	Trying to figure out a way to easily do things like $("li:last") but I can't find a way to select the last occurance of a given element in goog.dom, everything Ive found that seems like it would.. doesn't
00:01	cark	while i really don't care about performances for this part
00:03	cark	there is some kind of a barrier which prevent macros to propagate type hints
00:03	cark	i'm guessing there is some good reason for that
00:03	cark	but it's annoying
00:05	amalloy	cark: there is no such barrier
00:08	cark	well there is
00:08	cark	trying to make a short example
00:09	cark	actually you're right... maybe my earlier tests were bad
00:10	cark	or it changed at some point
00:12	cark	well then it begs the question, why is the "this" captured symbol not annotated in a proxy declaration ?
00:16	brehaut	https://plus.google.com/115094562986465477143/posts/Di6RwCNKCrf another reason lein (ok and cake) are great
01:50	amalloy	so for some f which takes a while to compute, (memoize f) may result in f being called multiple times for the same args, as different threads each look in the cache, see nothing there, and compute f. is this perceived as a problem?
01:52	companion_cube	it would be more efficient to waitt for the first thread that began computing the value
01:52	companion_cube	maiss then you have to know that some thread is computing it
01:52	companion_cube	but then*
01:54	cemerick	making it so that f returned a future that contains the result for a given set of parameters gets around that cleanly.
02:06	amcnamara	Raynes: how's meet clojure coming along these days?
02:08	amalloy	anyway, if anyone is interested in that, https://gist.github.com/1252810 is a solution that avoids that problem (trading it for a slightly slower fast-path)
03:10	mindbender1	please, In a (let [foo (baz)] foo) does the foo get the value of baz immediate eval or is eval delayed until foo is called outside []?
03:11	cark	immediate
03:11	mindbender1	cark: ok thanks
03:11	mindbender1	how are you today?
03:12	cark	im' fine, how about you ?
03:12	mindbender1	I'm fine thank you... you guys are being of much help
03:13	cark	=)
03:14	cark	you can use delay and force if you need delayed evaluation
03:14	mindbender1	how would I rewrite the let?
03:16	cark	,(let [a (delay (+ 1 2))] @a)
03:16	clojurebot	3
03:16	cark	or
03:17	cark	,(let [a (delay (+ 1 2))] (force a))
03:17	clojurebot	3
03:18	cark	you can also start the computation directly with futures
03:21	mindbender1	ok thanks
03:28	cark	grrr there is absolutely no way to have good looking text rendering with swing >>
04:04	Fossi	,find
04:04	clojurebot	#<core$find clojure.core$find@594d1d>
04:04	Fossi	#find
05:01	Blkt	good day everyone
07:31	markc	,(+ 1 2)
07:31	clojurebot	3
07:34	gfredericks	can gen-class create vararg methods?
07:34	clgv	,(ns-publics ns)
07:34	clojurebot	{}
07:35	clgv	&(ns-publics ns)
07:35	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-publics is bad!
07:36	clgv	,(ns-publics 'clojure.core)
07:36	clojurebot	{sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map, read-line #'clojure.core/read-line, re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern, keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?, unchecked-inc-int #'clojure.core/unchecked-inc-int, ...}
07:37	clgv	When doing a (ns-publics ns) I get #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IObj>
07:37	gfredericks	clgv: any context?
07:37	gfredericks	you just fire up a repl and that's what happens?
07:37	clgv	gfredericks: I start CCW's REPL for a file
07:38	gfredericks	okay then I don't know what's going on :)
07:49	clgv	hm yeah. in normal repl it just works.
07:50	clgv	really strange. might be some problem with nrepl
07:50	clgv	hm lol. it works in another file, but files in that one reproducable
07:56	clgv	ok a related question to ##(doc defn)
07:56	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata"
07:57	clgv	that means I can define a fucntion like (defn f {:meta-attr :fn} [x] (inc)) right?
07:57	clgv	s/(defn f {:meta-attr :fn} [x] (inc))/(defn f {:meta-attr :fn} [x] (inc x))
08:03	clgv	oh right using metadata {:type :something} in a defn causes the problem
08:23	dbushenko	hi all!
08:24	dbushenko	how to sort a clojure vector?
08:24	Raynes	&(sort [4 2 1 3])
08:24	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4)
08:25	Raynes	&(sort-by - [3 2 1 4])
08:25	lazybot	⇒ (4 3 2 1)
08:26	clgv	or if it has to be a vector again: ##(vec (sort [3 1 4 2]))
08:26	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4]
08:27	Raynes	(but it probably doesn't, so don't bother changing it back unless it actually needs to be a vector)
08:27	dbushenko	thank you guys!
08:27	dbushenko	but what if the vector looks like this:
08:28	dbushenko	[[:a 1] [:b 3] [:c 2]]
08:28	dbushenko	probably I should use sort-by?
08:28	clgv	&(sort-by first [[:a 1] [:b 3] [:c 2]])
08:28	lazybot	⇒ ([:a 1] [:b 3] [:c 2])
08:28	Raynes	It'll sort properly ##(sort [[:b 3] [:c 2] [:a 1]])
08:28	lazybot	⇒ ([:a 1] [:b 3] [:c 2])
08:28	clgv	&(sort-by second [[:a 1] [:b 3] [:c 2]])
08:28	lazybot	⇒ ([:a 1] [:c 2] [:b 3])
08:28	dbushenko	great! thanks!
08:29	Raynes	clgv: We're a team, you know.
08:29	Raynes	<3
08:29	clgv	lol^^
08:29	clgv	well. had to wait for lein uberjar ;)
08:43	dbushenko	is there a way to change the order of (sort-by second my-vector) ?
08:48	gfredericks	dbushenko: the argument order? just gotta define your own function
08:49	gfredericks	dbushenko: if you do that alot you can create a helper: (defn reverse-args [f] #(apply f (reverse %&)))
08:49	dbushenko	oh, great! thanks!
09:08	clgv	dbushenko: just in case you are using -> there is also ->> and hence maybe no need to reverse arg order
09:09	dbushenko	clgv, thanks!
09:16	TimMc	,(class (sort [1 2 3]))
09:16	clojurebot	clojure.lang.ArraySeq
09:17	TimMc	,(class (vec (sort [1 2 3])))
09:17	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
09:17	clgv	,(class (sort (range 1000)))
09:17	clojurebot	clojure.lang.ArraySeq
09:17	clgv	,(class (sort (range 100000)))
09:17	clojurebot	clojure.lang.ArraySeq
09:17	clgv	,(clojure-version)
09:17	clojurebot	"1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
09:18	clgv	&(class (sort (range 1000)))
09:18	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.ArraySeq
09:18	clgv	&(clojure-version)
09:18	lazybot	⇒ "1.2.0"
09:18	TimMc	Oh, that's handy.
09:39	`fogus	seancorfield: Did you have a draft of a documentation plan for 1.4? If so then I'd love to get that up on the wiki. (I recall that you mentioned you'd take a stab at it, but if my memory is bad then please smack me)
09:52	Blafasel	Any documentation for math.combinatorics? The old github repository gives a 404, the new contrib build (0.0.1) seems to be just a binary blob..
09:52	Blafasel	How do you guys explore things like this?
09:52	stuartsierra	Blafasel: Read the source!
09:53	Blafasel	Yeah.. Where is it?
09:53	fdaoud	wtfm?
09:53	stuartsierra	https://github.com/clojure/math.combinatorics/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/math/combinatorics.clj
09:54	Blafasel	stuartsierra: Thanks.. I searched clojure.org (ended up in a dead end on the page on the old contrib library) and the new 'where did contrib go' page, which only links to the build status / artifact on maven, as far as I can see.
09:54	Blafasel	Appreciated!
09:56	thorwil_	what happens if you use libraries that depend on varying versions of clojure?
09:57	thorwil_	i'm considering to try clojure 1.3 with appengine-magic's beta branch
09:58	thorwil_	but do moustache and hiccup actually play along with 1.3?
09:58	stuartsierra	thorwil_: If you're using a Maven-based dependency resolution (Lein, Cake) it will resolve to the version you declare.
09:58	stuartsierra	Obviously the library has to be compatible with that version of Clojure.
10:02	thorwil_	so hiccup should be fine: http://groups.google.com/group/ring-clojure/browse_thread/thread/d833d6741e1a8d32
10:05	fdaoud	can't wait for that book to come out! :)
10:21	clgv	Can I limit the number of threads that is used for agents?
10:28	cark	when using send, it's already limited
10:28	gfredericks	is it impossible to generate a vararg function with gen-class?
10:32	clgv	no. I mean the total amount of threads that my programm is able to use?
10:33	cark	you need to use threadpools then i guess
10:33	cark	don't know how to hook the agents into your own thread pool
10:33	clgv	well agents already do have their threadpool ;)
10:34	cark	you're the reflecgtion wizard, i guess you'll patch that just like you want it =)
10:34	dpritchett_	Anyone know of a nice github-style open source repo browser I can set up to serve read access to my local repos?
10:35	clgv	lol, in that case something in the language is preferable.
10:35	dpritchett_	I can even consider switching SCMs if the solution is good enough
10:35	clgv	you cant always use as many threads as processors are there, since others are using that machine too, and there is an agreement on how much are allowed to use
10:36	cark	i don't think there's any facility on the clojure side of things to do what you want
10:36	clgv	but why not? it's not that uncommon...
10:36	cark	but the java implementation of agents might have some puggable stuff, you'd need to check the source
10:37	cark	hey i don't know !
10:37	clgv	I think it's a pretty straight forward use case
10:39	cark	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Agent.java
10:40	cark	looks like pretty final to me
10:40	clgv	I am already overthere ;)
10:41	clgv	damn thats true.
10:53	clgv	hmm even in 1.3 it's the same :/
11:04	cemerick	Looks like dev.clojure.org/jira is having issues?
11:06	clgv	hmm ThreadPoolExecutor has methods to change the number of Threads used, so it's no java problem but something missing in the clojure implementation of agents
11:06	fdaoud	that's what jira is for - issues\
11:06	fdaoud	j/k ;)
11:06	cemerick	fdaoud: well done :-P
11:06	clgv	fdaoud: lol!
11:06	fdaoud	it's Friday :-)
11:27	zerokarmaleft	greetings, programs.
11:37	technomancy	clojurebot: do you believe in the users?
11:37	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:37	fdaoud	clojurebot: parlez-vous francais?
11:37	clojurebot	No entiendo
11:38	fdaoud	clojurebot: who is Rich Hickey?
11:38	clojurebot	is_rhickey_a_minor_god is yes
11:38	foodoo	french != spanish(?)
11:38	fdaoud	clojurebot: what is Lisp?
11:38	clojurebot	lisp is the red pill
11:38	fdaoud	man, they thought of everything
11:38	foodoo	clojurebot: what is the blue pill?
11:38	clojurebot	No entiendo
11:39	fdaoud	clojurebot: what is Java?
11:39	clojurebot	http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/index.html
11:39	fdaoud	clojurebot: what is Cobol?
11:39	clojurebot	The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence. -- Dijkstra
11:39	foodoo	clojurebot: (world-dominion)
11:39	clojurebot	No entiendo
11:39	fdaoud	clojurebot: what is Object-Oriented Programming?
11:39	clojurebot	http://www.math.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf
11:39	fdaoud	love it :D
11:40	foodoo	clojurebot: are you an AI?
11:40	clojurebot	Huh?
11:40	foodoo	that reaction seems pretty human to me
11:40	fdaoud	clojurebot: what do you have to say about women?
11:40	clojurebot	women are just jealous, since lisp has nice curves. -- Chousuke
11:41	fdaoud	clojurebot: what do you have to say about religion?
11:41	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:41	clgv	clojurebot: what is the blue pill?
11:41	clojurebot	blue pill is viagra
11:41	fdaoud	clojurebot: what do you have to say about politics?
11:41	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:41	gtrak	clojurebot, java?
11:41	clojurebot	☕
11:41	foodoo	clojurebot: what do you have to say about Java?
11:41	clojurebot	☕
11:41	fdaoud	clojurebot: what is Scheme?
11:41	foodoo	dammit, two fools, same thought :D
11:41	clojurebot	scheme is Scheme is like a ball of snow. You can add any amount of snow to it and it still looks like snow. Moreover, snow is cleaner than mud.
11:42	gtrak	clojurebot, lisp?
11:42	clojurebot	"Like DNA, such a language [Lisp] does not go out of style." - Paul Graham, ANSI Common Lisp
11:42	foodoo	clojurebot: recursion
11:42	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:42	foodoo	a clojurebot that doesn't understand recursion. That's bad
11:42	gtrak	clojurebot, recursion is recursion
11:42	clojurebot	Alles klar
11:42	gtrak	clojurebot, recursion
11:42	clojurebot	recursion is recursion
11:43	fdaoud	clojurebot, John McCarthy?
11:43	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:43	foodoo	ah, so he's an AI after all :)
11:43	fdaoud	Huh?
11:43	fdaoud	clojurebot: who is John McCarthy?
11:43	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:43	fdaoud	disappointed!
11:43	gfredericks	fdaoud: you can teach him things
11:44	fdaoud	gfredericks: really? cool, show me
11:44	gfredericks	clojurebot: John McCarthy is nobody of note.
11:44	clojurebot	Ok.
11:44	gfredericks	clojurebot: who is John McCarthy?
11:44	clojurebot	John McCarthy is nobody of note.
11:44	clgv	lol what??
11:44	lazybot	clgv: Definitely not.
11:44	foodoo	clojurebot: NP == P?
11:44	clojurebot	hiccup is http://tinyurl.com/426og7n
11:44	clgv	does clojurebot hate that many questions???
11:44	lazybot	clgv: Oh, absolutely.
11:45	fdaoud	clojurebot: without John McCarthy we would not be here today.
11:45	clojurebot	John McCarthy is nobody of note.
11:45	fdaoud	clojurebot: John McCarthy is someone without whom we would not be here today.
11:45	clojurebot	c'est bon!
11:45	gfredericks	fdaoud: I think you have to format it as 'X is Y'
11:45	foodoo	clojurebot: Are macros good?
11:45	clojurebot	Barking spiders!
11:45	fdaoud	clojurebot: who is John McCarthy?
11:45	clojurebot	John McCarthy is nobody of note.
11:45	foodoo	how mysterious...
11:45	fdaoud	can't override I guess
11:45	gfredericks	clojurebot: who is John McCarthy?
11:45	foodoo	he's fooling around with us :D
11:45	clojurebot	John McCarthy is nobody of note.
11:45	gfredericks	clojurebot: who is John McCarthy?
11:45	clojurebot	John McCarthy is someone without whom we would not be here today.
11:46	gfredericks	clojurebot accepts multiple thruths
11:46	gfredericks	truths
11:46	foodoo	clojurebot: where is here?
11:46	clojurebot	Pardon?
11:46	gtrak	clojurebot, do you exist?
11:46	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:46	foodoo	clojurebot: What is the solution to all problems?
11:46	clojurebot	excusez-moi
11:47	gfredericks	clojurebot: what is the answer to the great question of life, the universe, and everything?
11:47	clojurebot	tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer is no
11:47	fdaoud	clojurebot: Francais is Le langage de l'amour
11:47	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
11:47	fdaoud	clojurebot: what is Francais?
11:47	clojurebot	Francais is Le langage de l'amour
11:47	foodoo	clojurebot: goto hell
11:47	clojurebot	Hello, mcoffbyone
11:47	fdaoud	bwahaha
11:47	foodoo	i don't get that one
11:47	foodoo	clojurebot: hell
11:47	fdaoud	got you there
11:47	clojurebot	BUENOS DING DONG DIDDLY DIOS, fRaUline foodoo
11:48	foodoo	clojurebot: goto
11:48	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:48	fdaoud	clojurebot: how sad are we, really?
11:48	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:48	foodoo	clojurebot: why is 1 true and 0 false?
11:48	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:48	foodoo	clojurebot: you are disgressing
11:48	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:49	foodoo	seems like there's a knot in his tongue now
11:49	foodoo	clojurebot: ()
11:49	clojurebot	() is awesome
11:49	foodoo	clojurebot: xml
11:49	clojurebot	xml is like violence; if it's not working, you're not using enough of it.
11:49	foodoo	wohooho
11:49	clgv	lol
11:49	clgv	clojurebot: cloud computing
11:49	clojurebot	Huh?
11:50	foodoo	clojurebot: Microsoft
11:50	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:50	gfredericks	clojurebot: java
11:50	clojurebot	☕
11:50	foodoo	is that a cup?
11:50	fdaoud	Java logo
11:50	gfredericks	clojurebot: scala
11:50	clojurebot	Unfortunately the standard idiom of consuming an infinite/unbounded resource as a stream can be problematic unless you're really careful -- seen in #scala
11:50	foodoo	computing itself can be problematic ;)
11:51	gfredericks	unless you're really careful
11:51	fdaoud	foodoo: http://bp2.blogger.com/_DV4mNdm8j8Q/SIHBlsbtFAI/AAAAAAAAANc/qpphGzkZSPU/s1600-h/322px-java-logo.svg-1
11:51	fdaoud	clojurebot: ruby
11:51	clojurebot	Chunky bacon!
11:51	fdaoud	clojurebot: groovy
11:51	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:51	foodoo	fdaoud: thanks. But I know what the java logo looks like. But in this terminal you can hardly make it out ;)
11:51	clgv	clojurebot: c++
11:51	clojurebot	:negative/num-1 + :positive/num-1 = :zero/zero
11:51	fdaoud	foodoo: ok :)
11:52	clgv	clojurebot: c#
11:52	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:52	clgv	clojurebot: .net
11:52	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:52	foodoo	clojurebot: BASIC
11:52	clojurebot	Pardon?
11:52	foodoo	clojurebot: )(
11:52	fdaoud	,(repeatedly #(+ 40 2))
11:52	clojurebot	Excuse me?
11:52	clojurebot	(42 42 42 42 42 ...)
11:52	clgv	clojurebot: C#
11:52	clojurebot	Excuse me?
11:52	foodoo	clojurebot: )(
11:52	clojurebot	No entiendo
11:52	gtrak	clojurebot, ()
11:52	clojurebot	() is awesome
11:53	gtrak	clojurebot, (damn)
11:53	foodoo	clojurebot: json
11:53	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:53	clojurebot	http://dakrone.github.com/cheshire/
11:53	foodoo	clojurebot: UNIX
11:53	clojurebot	it's a UNIX system! I know this!
11:53	foodoo	clojurebot: iteration
11:53	clojurebot	amac: So it's a seq of connections? And what do you do with them? I understand what disjoined sets look like, but the representation and iteration is where I run into trouble.
11:56	pjstadig	clojurebot: suddenly
11:56	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
11:57	pjstadig	clojurebot: suddenly
11:57	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
12:01	clgv	&(println "Clojurebot: take this!")
12:01	lazybot	⇒ Clojurebot: take this! nil
12:02	clgv	hm damn that worked a while ago ;)
12:02	gfredericks	,(println "&(println \"Clojurebot: I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. Friends?\")")
12:02	clojurebot	&(println "Clojurebot: I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. Friends?")
12:02	lazybot	⇒ Clojurebot: I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. Friends? nil
12:02	clgv	&(println "clojurebot: json")
12:02	lazybot	⇒ clojurebot: json nil
12:02	clgv	harrharr^^
12:09	crazyFox	hi. i'd like to use clojure.math.numeric-tower in a leiningen project. on http://dev.clojure.org it says this project is awaiting releases. does that mean i cant use it as it is?
12:22	gfredericks	isn't it weird that library releases aren't published with something like a commit-id? So that e.g. you could put the hash in your project.clj and validate the jars as they're downloaded?
12:29	dnolen	awesome post http://sritchie.github.com/2011/09/29/getting-creative-with-mapreduce.html
12:39	duck1123	Does anyone know what I can do if lein marg is extracting all of my ;; comments, but none of my docstrings?
12:41	pyr	duck1123: there's an open issue for that
12:42	pyr	duck1123: marginalia is broken in that regard
12:44	duck1123	I thought I had read that it was fixed, guess not
13:00	kzar	Can anyone recommend a library to generate HMAC-SHA-512s?
13:04	crazyFox	the slamhound plugin from technomancy is a really handy thing. though the project didnt move since may. is there a later/better version?
13:11	duck1123	kzar: you could always use the java libs
13:12	kzar	duck1123: Yea exactly, I've done no Java though so I wasn't sure which library was best to use
13:12	technomancy	crazyFox: the easy parts all got finished. =)
13:12	TimMc	kzar: Java standard libs should do it.
13:12	technomancy	pretty-printing is hard to do right though
13:12	gfredericks	technomancy: is it expected for lein to break under gcj 1.5?
13:13	gfredericks	(no big deal if so)
13:13	technomancy	gfredericks: I'm not aware of any clojure code that works under gcj
13:13	duck1123	kzar: http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/security/MessageDigest.html
13:13	gfredericks	technomancy: very good :)
13:14	gfredericks	I figured that was the case
13:14	TimMc	,(java.security.MessageDigest/getInstance "MD5")
13:14	clojurebot	#<Delegate MD5 Message Digest from SUN, <initialized>
13:14	clojurebot	>
13:14	TimMc	,(java.security.MessageDigest/getInstance "SHA512")
13:14	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.security.NoSuchAlgorithmException: SHA512 MessageDigest not available>
13:14	technomancy	gfredericks: IIUC gcj is pretty skooky
13:15	TimMc	,(java.security.MessageDigest/getInstance "SHA-512")
13:15	clojurebot	#<Delegate SHA-512 Message Digest from SUN, <initialized>
13:15	clojurebot	>
13:15	TimMc	kzar: ^
13:15	kzar	duck1123, TimMc: Thanks
13:17	crazyFox	technomancy: is was not rly meant as a criticism... just wasnt sure if anybody had taken it (even) further
13:17	gfredericks	technomancy: but that's what my fresh install of debian comes with
13:17	gfredericks	technomancy: which is so much not your fault it's not even hilarious
13:18	fdaoud	cemerick: just got a note from amazon saying your book is delayed..
13:18	technomancy	gfredericks: heh. there's talk on the debian-java-maintainers list to drop gcj as the default soon. the only reason it's there now is that openjdk isn't so hot on MIPS or some such.
13:18	cemerick	fdaoud: hah, that it is :-\|
13:18	gfredericks	technomancy: what? They're willing to break all of my MIPS laptops??
13:18	lazybot	gfredericks: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
13:18	kzar	Is it possible to stop Enlive wrapping <body> and <html> tags around templates / snippets?
13:19	gfredericks	lazybot: phew
13:19	fdaoud	cemerick: are you guys still writing?
13:19	cemerick	fdaoud: Everything's "done", it's an editing game at this point.
13:20	technomancy	gfredericks: oh noes!
13:20	fdaoud	cemerick: oh ok. no problem then. it's normal to take 2-3 months from "done writing" to "in print".
13:21	cemerick	fdaoud: No, there's no real problem. I think O'Reilly had some optimistic timetable in mind (as did we).
13:21	S11001001	gfredericks: got a bunch of yeeloong lemotes do you?
13:21	S11001001	or lemote yeeloongs
13:22	cemerick	I never had any clue just how demanding writing a book would be.
13:22	fdaoud	cemerick: I sent in my final chapter end of July, book came out end of October.
13:22	cemerick	fdaoud: which is your book?
13:22	fdaoud	cemerick: http://www.amazon.com/Stripes-Development-Pragmatic-Programmers/dp/1934356212
13:23	cemerick	Nice. I like the cover and tagline. :-)
13:23	fdaoud	cemerick: thanks! I am happy with the positive reviews :)
13:24	cemerick	5 stars out of 14 — nice!
13:24	kzar	dnolen: Do you know if this ever got sorted out? http://goo.gl/CO7jJ
13:25	fdaoud	cemerick: made all the hard work worthwhile :)
13:25	cemerick	fdaoud: https://twitter.com/#!/cemerick/statuses/119825104346677248
13:26	cemerick	;-0
13:26	cemerick	;-)
13:26	fdaoud	cemerick: I knew it would be hard work, I knew it would be even harder than I thought, and then it was even harder than that
13:26	cemerick	fdaoud: agreed.
13:27	fdaoud	cemerick: that's funny! well, since having been through writing a book, I do pay more attention to books and especially giving positive feedback to the authors of the good ones.
13:27	cemerick	Trying to do it on top of two other full time jobs was…questionable.
13:30	fdaoud	cemerick: on the other hand I've been extremely annoyed with some early-access books I've purchased from Manning and 3 years later the final book still has not been finished.
13:30	cemerick	yeah, I can imagine that's frustrating.
13:30	cemerick	Ironically, I don't really buy programming books.
13:31	cemerick	(let's keep that between us and the other 300 people here)
13:32	fdaoud	cemerick: that's ok, I make up your average by buying 2-3 books/month ;)
13:34	crazyFox	am i right that slamhound doesnt pick up usages of functions that were defined in the same project (but different namespace)?
13:34	fdaoud	cemerick: how was it working with co-authors? I was alone. Did you just have to write your part and let the publisher coordinate everything?
13:41	technomancy	crazyFox: it should pick those up
13:48	cemerick	Anyone here an HTTP protocol expert?
13:49	TimMc	Yeah, I use a browser like every day.
13:49	TimMc	:-)
13:49	cemerick	sweet, I need some googling assistance. :-P
13:50	TimMc	haha
13:50	TimMc	What's the question?
13:51	technomancy	TimMc: 408
13:51	cemerick	nevermind — was just trying to clarify whether multiple headers of the same type were actually in the spec, or merely allowed via convention
13:57	kencausey	depends on the header I believe
13:58	cemerick	kencausey: Yeah; accept and cache-control seem to explicitly allow for it; others, perhaps not.
13:59	enquora	considering moving a node.js web app server/proxy to jvm. server-sent event and websocket support required. my understanding is that ring/compojure is unsuitable. correct?
13:59	cemerick	I was just checking as to whether it's a known pattern.
14:00	kencausey	See Section 4.2 of RFC 2616
14:00	gtrak	enquora, see clj-socketio
14:00	gtrak	https://github.com/ibdknox/clj-socketio
14:01	gtrak	and http://socket.io/
14:01	cemerick	kencausey: Thank you. :-) How did I miss that last paragraph…
14:02	gtrak	enquora, or http://cometd.org/documentation/cometd-java
14:02	kencausey	cemerick: You just didn't get lucky with a search for multiple like I did ;)
14:02	cemerick	That's a long way of saying, multiples of the same header have set semantics for their values.
14:03	cemerick	(insofar as the comma-delimitation already implies set semantics)
14:03	enquora	gtrak: which means knocking together routing, authentication support on my own, it appears. looking at aleph
14:04	gtrak	enquora, ah, does aleph and websockets work together?
14:05	enquora	I'm just looking at it, but it decouples request from response, so it appears
14:05	gtrak	enquora, i think that's necessity when you're talking async, yes?
14:05	enquora	pretty much
14:06	enquora	don't want to reinvent the wheel here, and working from socket support up seems just that. Prefer using clojure to scala, too, if possible ;-)
14:06	gtrak	ibdknox would probably know about it, but he's not around right now
14:07	gtrak	enquora, socket.io != socket
14:12	enquora	gtrak: so it doesn't. socket.io looks a little thin on the ground for my purposes, though. need a full http stack that can be exposed to the 'net. That seems to mean using netty in the jvm world.
14:12	gtrak	what's the issue there?
14:12	enquora	where?
14:12	clojurebot	where is log
14:12	gtrak	there's a socket.io-netty already built
14:13	gtrak	https://github.com/ibdknox/socket.io-netty
14:13	enquora	ah, k. the issue then would be documentation ;-)
14:14	gtrak	yea, all the stuff is pretty fresh, it looks like it hasn't been touched since August 1
14:14	enquora	looking for something of an ecosystem, too. most mental energy is going into radical revamping of datastore and html client.
14:15	gtrak	i think the tech isn't mature enough for that yet
14:15	enquora	yeah. just exploring. there are Scala options, but I'm much less keen on the language
14:16	gtrak	if I get around to working on it, I'd be willing to spend some brain cells on improving stuff
14:16	gtrak	curious about aleph though, didn't know it was an option
14:16	enquora	might be
14:17	enquora	I'm comfortable enough in lisp to hack with it a bit right away. scala and assembly (er java) not so much
14:17	gtrak	clojure should be able to operate with any scala stuff, too
14:19	enquora	that's one of the reasons for moving the entire stack to the jvm. we're committed to it already through lucene and elasticsearch. growing tired of a hodgepodge of deployment environments.
14:19	gtrak	jvm's hot stuff
14:20	enquora	just discovered akka, and that seems to resolve the app reliability issues
14:25	kzar	With enlive how do I use a snippet from inside a template? As it's a function I've tried just calling it but that gives me an array-map of the structure instead of HTML
14:27	`fogus	We need a contrib adoption drive.
14:31	technomancy	`fogus: I just stripped contrib out of our project at work; the only things that didn't have replacements were to-byte-array, delete-file-recursively, defalias, and throwf
14:31	gtrak	ibdknox, what do you think of aleph for websockets? did you look at it?
14:31	technomancy	`fogus: modulo transitive deps of course.
14:32	ibdknox	gtrak: yep, back when I was building typewire I wanted to use aleph, but it was about 4 orders of magnitude slower than all my other tests
14:32	ibdknox	gtrak: it has improved significantly since then :)
14:32	gtrak	enquora, ^^
14:33	kzar	Ah figured it out (apply str (emit* (snippet-name "args")))
14:36	enquora	ibdknox: my need is for an app proxy to mediate between multiple datastores and sources, and rich html offline/online clients. server-sent events and websockets part of picture. Only recently returned to jvm, but netty seems to be only viable http stack. correct? need to use existing libs for routing authentication etc
14:38	ibdknox	enquora: if you intend to have long standing connections, i.e. websockets, then yes, you definitely want to be on top of netty
14:38	ibdknox	which is what aleph is built on
14:38	ibdknox	I would point out, however, dealing with websockets is a royal pain
14:39	ibdknox	and I suggest you consider for a bit whether or not you really need them, or if a simple polling strategy makes more sense
14:39	enquora	we really need them
14:39	ibdknox	okidoke
14:39	enquora	polling - 1999 called and it wants its protocol back
14:40	enquora	we need live updates of changes to persistently connected html clients
14:40	ibdknox	hah, sure, but it's the only solution that works consistently
14:40	ibdknox	in any case
14:40	ibdknox	what kind of load are you looking at?
14:40	enquora	tiny at the moment, but not willing to go with a hacked architecture if not necessary
14:40	enquora	and it isn't
14:41	enquora	hundreds of clients connected
14:41	enquora	not thousands or more
14:41	ibdknox	oh, aleph will breeze through that
14:41	ibdknox	I was looking at millions
14:41	enquora	don't want to be in a position next year where we can't handle thousands, though
14:42	ibdknox	shouldn't be an issue :)
14:43	enquora	orders of magnitude less performance doesn't sound encouraging
14:43	ibdknox	aleph could handle 5k back when I was actively screwing around with it
14:43	enquora	and, want to be ready to deploy on ARM servers next year
14:43	ibdknox	enquora: that was 6 months ago
14:43	enquora	much lower horsepower
14:44	enquora	will take a look at it
14:44	enquora	have just discovered it
14:44	ibdknox	the other option is writing against netty directly
14:44	ibdknox	it's a pain
14:44	enquora	yes
14:44	ibdknox	for an example,
14:44	ibdknox	you can look at my socket.io-netty
14:44	enquora	have enough pain moving backend and clients already
14:44	enquora	trying to minimize mental load ;-)
14:45	ibdknox	https://github.com/ibdknox/socket.io-netty
14:45	enquora	that may mean keeping the middleware on node.js or python for the moment :-)
14:45	ibdknox	if you don't mind having a node server
14:45	ibdknox	that will be by far the easiest solution
14:45	enquora	I do mind having a node server
14:46	enquora	but it is probably the easiest
14:46	ibdknox	why?
14:46	clojurebot	ibdknox: because you can't handle the truth!
14:46	kjeldahl	ibdknow: Sorry for busting in, but I just logged on. Any pointers for settuping up a websockets server, sharing a port with a traditional noir server?
14:46	kjeldahl	ibdknow=ibdknox sigh
14:47	ibdknox	kjedahl: I should probably write a simple tutorial for using a noir handler with aleph :)
14:47	enquora	ibdknox: just as background, coming from erlang environment for this stuff, but library support becoming a problem. can't be writing every support function from scratch :-(
14:48	ibdknox	kjeldahl: basically you just use (server/gen-handler) and then use aleph's (wrap-ring-handler)
14:48	ibdknox	then you can run noir on top of netty :)
14:48	amalloy	kjeldahl: you can usually tab-complete usernames
14:48	kjeldahl	amalloy: Thanks, now I know! Works in ERC also...
14:48	ibdknox	enquora: so make the node server completely stupid and only handle connections. Have a queue that tells it what to do :)
14:49	kjeldahl	ibdknox: Thanks, I'll start reading..
14:49	ibdknox	enquora: but yeah, I dropped node too
14:50	enquora	ibdknox: trying to avoid a middleware queue, but it may be necessary
14:51	gtrak	you guys heard of chloe? http://www.trottercashion.com/2011/06/13/introducing-chloe.html
14:51	enquora	I know I'm in the java ecosystem now, but I'd really like to cut complexity ;-)
14:51	ibdknox	enquora: my experience shows that the performance characteristics of a websocket server are entirely different than normal web servers, we needed to separate them for scaling reasons
14:52	gtrak	chloe's a middle-man erlang server for websockets
14:52	enquora	ibdknox: it may be so. Given my current small scale, I'd prefer to factor that one out later
14:53	ibdknox	enquora: kjeldahl's question is pertinent to you too then. You can write your websocket code in aleph and just wrap noir to handle all your normal web traffic. Should work nicely :)
14:54	enquora	I was listening
14:54	ibdknox	gtrak: that wouldn't work for something that essentially streams data back and forth
14:55	gtrak	huh?
14:55	ibdknox	gtrak: having written some of this stuff from the ground up, I'm leary of things that say they will magically handle all this stuff :)
14:55	gtrak	what's it mean to stream data back and forth?
14:55	ibdknox	gtrak: to get information back to your server, your server receives a post request from the Chloe server
14:55	gtrak	yes
14:55	ibdknox	let's say I'm sending position information from the client to the server, updating once per second
14:56	ibdknox	chloe will be sending posts at an extreme rate with 100 users
14:57	ibdknox	dealing with an http post will incur a much higher overhead than just decoding the websocket format
14:57	gtrak	ah, perhaps, I'm sure there's optimization that could be made there
14:58	gtrak	like just sockets instead of http requests
14:58	ibdknox	yeah
14:59	ibdknox	for many though, the way that works is probably fine :)
14:59	gtrak	it's much better to do it all in a single jvm
15:00	ibdknox	yeah
15:01	gtrak	but he made chloe to get people quickly up and running with websockets
15:01	`fogus	There is a plan for this
15:01	ibdknox	which is awesome, because it really is a pain in the ass
15:01	ibdknox	`fogus: a plan for what?
15:01	`fogus	this
15:02	TimMc	heh
15:02	ibdknox	lol
15:02	ibdknox	"this" in the cljs sense? :)
15:02	TimMc	sounds like it
15:05	ibdknox	TimMc: it was a drive-by planning
15:07	enquora	ibdknox: our problem is that users work mainly offline. They are connected every few days to submit data and retrieve it. We're really hamstrung by the constraints of connectionless messaging at the moment. I'll admit, though, I have only a general grasp of the architectural implications at the moment
15:07	ibdknox	enquora: so why are websockets necessary?
15:08	enquora	I should add that the time users remain online is extremely variable. From an operational perspective, we need a way to keep their attention while processing data, sending out messages, etc
15:09	ibdknox	enquora: unless the resolution of new data sends is < 30s polling is by far a better solution
15:09	enquora	We have a need to communicate state changes back to browsers
15:09	enquora	we have mobile users to content with
15:09	enquora	on cell connections where every bit counts
15:09	enquora	as does latency
15:10	enquora	yes, the resolution of new data sends can easily be less than 30s
15:10	enquora	we need soft realtime
15:10	ibdknox	righto
15:10	ibdknox	at that point you're "streaming" and wss makes sense
15:10	ibdknox	keep in mind
15:10	ibdknox	proxies are going to screw with you
15:10	enquora	yes
15:11	enquora	that's already a problem with hotel wifi :-(
15:11	ibdknox	well, with the number of users you're talking about at this point, you shouldn't run into any real infrastructure problems
15:11	ibdknox	my use cases were a bit ridiculous originally
15:12	ibdknox	we were broadcasting per character typing
15:12	ibdknox	which means a message every 70 or so milliseconds
15:12	enquora	concern is that we've already put user inquires on hold with ten times as many client users
15:12	enquora	until this feels comfortable
15:12	ibdknox	you can scale horizontally without issue
15:13	ibdknox	fwiw a single box with socket.io-netty handles > 100k actives without issue
15:13	enquora	that's a nice concept in theory ;-) ...
15:14	`fogus	OK. That was fun. https://gist.github.com/1254701
15:14	enquora	need quorum-based multi data-center storage settled down first, to make that viable. It's nearly in hand. and that's what's led us back to the jvm
15:16	dnolen	`fogus: remind me again why ClojureScript needs access to JS this?
15:16	`fogus	Interop?
15:17	dnolen	`fogus: I'm sure I'm missing something, but I can't think of when this would be necessary, even for interop.
15:18	ibdknox	dnolen: jquery?
15:18	gfredericks	dnolen: jquery events pass the target as this I think...
15:20	`fogus	You would never have the need to use a cljs function as a method?
15:20	dnolen	ibdknox: gfredericks: so only as convenience? If so I think there need to be some thought as to whether it should be banished. Like + coercing objects to strings and concatenating them (we need unchecked-add)
15:20	enquora	ibdknox: is netty unique in the jvm ecosystem? everything else that's at all high-level seems to be oriented to servlets, which seems pretty much stuck in the 90s
15:21	ibdknox	enquora: netty is pretty low level, in the same way that node is low level. It's a NIO networking package
15:21	enquora	k
15:23	`fogus	dnolen: Are you serious?
15:23	gfredericks	dnolen: what about that example qualifies as "convenience"?
15:23	gfredericks	how else would you get an event target from a jquery handler?
15:23	`fogus	If you have a better way then I'm all for it
15:24	dnolen	gfredericks: event.target, I stopped using this to access the target like 5 years ago
15:24	gfredericks	dnolen: okay, so bad example. But it's conceivable that a JS API could require that you use this to access something
15:24	dnolen	even better you can extend Event, add ILookup and destructure the target out.
15:24	dnolen	gfredericks: show me
15:25	dnolen	I've looked at lot of them.
15:25	ibdknox	dnolen: fogus's example of using a cljs function on an object
15:25	gfredericks	dnolen: show you an existing one? or construct a hypothetical?
15:25	dnolen	ibdknox: grafting fns onto Objects is not something that is a part of APIs
15:26	ibdknox	dnolen: no, but it's a case where this is necessary
15:26	dnolen	gfredericks: not hypothetical, something that people really need.
15:26	ibdknox	unless our stance is, we just don't care
15:26	dnolen	what I take issue w/ is including something w/ bad semantics
15:27	gfredericks	dnolen: so you'd say the best interop strategy is not to allow anything until there's a concrete use-case?
15:27	dnolen	it is one of the worst parts about JavaScript
15:27	`fogus	dnolen: bad semantics? this?
15:27	dnolen	`fogus: yes, it's JavaScript's dynamic binding, but we already have that.
15:28	dnolen	so we'll have a language w/ two forms of dynamic binding
15:28	`fogus	dnolen: A js library will not care if we pass a cljs function into it
15:29	ibdknox	dnolen: sure it's crappy, but it's a reality of JS as a language that such a thing is not just supported, but widely used
15:29	ibdknox	dnolen: is there an example in CLJ proper where we disallow you to do something you could do in Java?
15:29	dnolen	`fogus: js libraries don't bind this, they expect you to do that yourself, and there's little reason to from the context of ClojureScript.
15:29	dnolen	ibdknox: that's a very long list
15:29	gfredericks	I suppose if an edge case comes up that requires this, you could always write a helper function in javascript to pass in this as an explicit first arg?
15:30	gfredericks	ibdknox: I've been trying to make vararg methods with gen-class and I'm betting it's not possible
15:30	ibdknox	was that an explicit decision, though?
15:30	dnolen	ibdknox: no inheritance, no real multiple constructors on types, no mutable locals outside of types, etc etc
15:30	gfredericks	dnolen: gen-class has inheritance...
15:32	dnolen	again, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. But I think we should come up a good long list of why it's a bad idea first.
15:32	`fogus	dnolen: The interop allows all of that
15:32	gfredericks	does js/this accomplish access to this?
15:32	`fogus	dnolen: The ClojureScript source code is that big long list.
15:33	dnolen	`fogus: ? do you need js/this there?
15:33	`fogus	gfredericks: js/this is an error
15:33	`fogus	dnolen: There is no js/thus
15:33	gfredericks	okay. so if it were added, js/this would be the syntax
15:34	`fogus	this even
15:34	dnolen	`fogus: sorry, then what were you saying in your last point, ClojureScript is what big long list?
15:34	`fogus	The only ways to get at this is through a hack and an explicit scope
15:35	`fogus	dnolen: The existence of CLJS is the long list of reasons that JS is bad.
15:35	zakwilson	Is there a list or a site showing library compatability with 1.3?
15:35	dnolen	`fogus: I know that. So what does "this" add?
15:35	gtrak	someone needs to give marick a hug
15:35	ibdknox	gtrak: ?
15:36	`fogus	Even in Clojure the interop forms allow things that allow the host semantics to bleed through
15:36	gtrak	he's wailing on clojure for bad reasons I think
15:36	ibdknox	link?
15:36	clojurebot	your link is dead
15:36	gtrak	http://www.exampler.com/blog/2011/09/29/my-clojure-problem/
15:37	TimMc	`fogus: Looks reasonable.
15:37	TimMc	What is this-as?
15:38	TimMc	macro, or special form?
15:38	`fogus	macro
15:39	ibdknox	gtrak: to be fair, I agree with him about a number of things. I was in charge of a community of 6 million developers for a while, right now we're not doing it right.I hoped to talk a bit about it at the Conj
15:40	TimMc	?
15:40	gtrak	I do too, but I feel like he wants it to be a better ruby... its niche is a really dynamic language that's still fast
15:40	TimMc	ibdknox: Rather, what project?
15:40	ibdknox	TimMc: C# and VB
15:41	dnolen	`fogus: for sure. just wanted to bring the point up. Yeah if you want to monkey-patch some existing object / prototype then yeah I can see how access to "this" would be useful.
15:41	`fogus	dnolen: I'm not trying to dismiss you, I respect your opinions on this (no pun). It would be very helpful if you could comment on CLJS-26
15:41	dnolen	`fogus: haha, I didn't think that you were :)
15:41	`fogus	dnolen: the extend-object! is still a questionable addition. it's not guaranteed to stay
15:42	gtrak	ibdknox, yea, I agree the community wants to be a bunch of elite guys
15:42	dnolen	gtrak: ibdknox: huh, who are these fabled "elite" people?
15:42	gtrak	hell, rich already argued about this with yegge
15:43	ibdknox	well, I didn't agree with Yegge either lol
15:43	gtrak	well you know, people that are willing to learn a lisp and care about speed
15:43	TimMc	I can't tell what that guy is on about.
15:43	ibdknox	he wants the opposite extreme
15:44	`fogus	I didn't see the Strangeloop talk, but as far as I know neither did Mr. Marick
15:46	`fogus	But he has some skin in the TDD/Agile game, so I suppose it makes sense that he might not like that Clojure's creator is skeptical about it
15:47	dnolen	ibdknox: do you have any simple improvements in mind? (community-wise)
15:48	ibdknox	dnolen: redoing clojure.org would make a huge difference
15:48	trptcolin	"simple" - i see what you did there :)
15:48	ibdknox	haha
15:48	dnolen	:D unintentional! I'm one of the brain-washed, Marick was right! NOOOOO!
15:49	trptcolin	lol
15:49	ibdknox	hahaha
15:49	ibdknox	:p
15:49	ibdknox	dnolen: my issues are primarily around the experience of getting started with Clojure
15:50	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah there's much to be desired there, especially now that we're at 1.3.0 and ClojureScript is out in the wild.
15:50	ibdknox	dnolen: there's a lot we need to do to onboard people, some of it is very simple, some of it isn't
15:50	ibdknox	and there are some people who are helping out immensely, especially on here
15:51	ibdknox	but you average dev doesn't use IRC
15:51	ibdknox	your*
15:51	gtrak	well, what would be a clear goal for the community? I'd hate to see clojure turn into a blub language
15:52	ibdknox	gtrak: let's talk about it at the Conj :) By then I'll have things to show
15:53	gtrak	I'll be there for sure
15:53	ibdknox	I have lots of exciting things in the works :)
15:54	`fogus	ibdknox: I doubt that any solid entry in the way of getting started would be rejected
15:56	`fogus	It's a worthy goal
15:56	`fogus	I wish that I had a great idea to solve it, believe me I would have by now
15:56	trptcolin	this is the thing i really want: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/CLJ+Launcher
15:56	`fogus	trptcolin: Me too
15:57	`fogus	I know Russ and he's still motivated to do it
15:57	trptcolin	awesome
16:02	Blafasel	Some feedback from a guy that started with clojure a couple days ago:
16:03	Blafasel	- the google hits are crap (you often end up on outdated pages, on outdated repositories etc.. Dead github repos)
16:03	Blafasel	- the contrib move now is confusing (but probably not only for new guys and I understand that's brand new and work in progress)
16:05	Blafasel	- the website could use some love especially around the api section. Example: I didn't understand letfn until I googled for examples. A simple example instead of the KNF derived syntax would've gone a long way
16:06	dnolen	`fogus: ?
16:06	Blafasel	The good parts: 4clojure is immensively helpful to get started, the SO community is really active (so a search with site:stackoverflow.com is mostly a good idea) and the people in here were invaluable.
16:07	`fogus	dnolen: Just the Marick thing. It's unfortunate.
16:08	dnolen	`fogus: It hard for me to find anything resembling a rational line of thinking. His points are very ... "feeling" oriented. Nothing wrong w/ that, but make it's difficult to see understand his viewpoint.
16:09	gtrak	I think he fears that the community is hostile to TDD and agile, and will tend to mirror Rich's opinions, plus he throws in that clojure prefers speed sometimes. I think they're separate issues and he shoudln't conflate them like that.
16:11	`fogus	dnolen: The guy has spent a long time thinking about and practicing TDD and Agile, so it makes sense that he's stung. I can't say for sure what RH said at Strangeloop, but in person I've never heard him press his views on me. Hell, I wrote a documentation app and a contracts programming API. I doubt those will make it into Clojure any timer soon.
16:12	dnolen	`fogus: yup. I've pointed out that he's trying to infer from tweets what almost everyone responded to w/ glowing reviews - especially from people who don't give two hoots about Clojure.
16:12	`fogus	gtrak: It's natural that there are some people who would mimic RH, but there are also people in the Clojure community who were skeptical of TDD/Agile before they met Clojure. Likewise, there are those who adhere to TDD/Agile who do not feel rejected by Clojure/core
16:12	thorwil	it almost looks like a negative person cult performed due to expecting there to be a person cult
16:13	gtrak	yea... that's why it needs to be addressed
16:14	dnolen	sage advice, https://twitter.com/vicentebosch/status/119867016839573504
16:14	`fogus	gtrak: Not sure how it might be addressed. I'm not sure that my anecdotes would help
16:15	gtrak	maybe picking apart his various concerns and coming up with some kind of community vision we can point back to
16:15	wink	is there any common/default/tried-and-true database solution vor noir web apps?
16:16	dnolen	gtrak: sounds tiresome and in the end probably not effective. Better to put resources into making Clojure easier for newcomers ;)
16:18	gtrak	well, for example, look at python's site: "Python is a programming language that lets you work more quickly and integrate your systems more effectively. You can learn to use Python and see almost immediate gains in productivity and lower maintenance costs." , our little description is a bit tl;dr
16:21	wink	to chime in what Blafasel said (and I've also been doing clojure only for 2 weeks): I find it immenseley annoying to not have/find working snippets of certain stuff
16:21	wink	I'm not new to programming, not even to functional programming, just to lisp-y stuff
16:21	dnolen	wink: is clojuredocs.org not useful?
16:21	hugod	google often lands you at rich's github repos and gh-pages - just taking those down might help
16:22	wink	dnolen: didn't know it. I'll investigate :)
16:22	wink	one example: I got some map via read-json and it took me a while to get something like: "give me the :name of every item in this vector", like a foreach() :P
16:23	wink	it was easy, in the end, but for some languages it would be one click away in the docs. with an example
16:23	Blafasel	wink: Same
16:24	wink	or trying to write my own integer? for lack of finding it
16:24	wink	but all in all, it's tremendously fun :)
16:24	wink	and I can't give enough praise to leiningen
16:24	dnolen	wink: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.json/read-json
16:24	gtrak	wink, well you know, in some langs a lot of the complexity is in the object model or syntax, in clojure it's about finding what func you need, there are some good books already
16:24	Blafasel	I'm used to F# (which tends to lend itself to the functional parts, but might lead to overuse of -> and ->> I guess), but here I was lost for lots of things.
16:25	Blafasel	It _is_ a lot of fun.
16:25	pjstadig	`fogus: i was at strange loop, and i like many other people thought that what rich said was well worth hearing, however...
16:25	wink	Blafasel: ah well, at least in contrast to scala I can search for syntax constructs and not -> ::> :) or whatever symbol :P
16:25	wink	dnolen: I'm really going to dig into that page :)
16:25	pjstadig	i think that some of the shots he took at TDD and/or agile were directed at strawmen
16:25	gtrak	pjstadig, yea some people took those comments way too seriously
16:26	wink	gtrak: yep, not gotten any book yet
16:26	pjstadig	and frankly the shots at TDD and/or agile were orthogonal to his points, and unnecessary for the presentation
16:26	pjstadig	imho
16:26	gtrak	wink, I like joy of clojure, there's another that came out recently
16:27	gtrak	or maybe it's not out yet
16:27	trptcolin	pjstadig: agreed; perhaps a bit complecting :) i was there too, didn't find anything offensive"
16:27	trptcolin	but clearly there were some jabs at testing/type systems/category theory
16:28	trptcolin	which is fine
16:28	dnolen	pjstadig: I disagree. People look for ways of guaranteeing correctness. The usefulness of TDD and types are well established. But in current practice they occlude perhaps deeper ways to get at correctness. To not address them would have weakened the argument.
16:29	pjstadig	particularly the tests-as-guardrails and firing-the-pistol-every-hundred-yards comments were directed at mischaracterizations of agile methodology (or at least my conception of them)
16:29	gtrak	dnolen, I like the way you said that, too bad rich didn't say it like that
16:29	gtrak	he also jabbed at pattern matching ;-)
16:30	pjstadig	dnolen: i don't see how they occlude deeper ways to get at correctness
16:30	dnolen	No idea is not worth jabbing. This touchy feely crap has got to stop.
16:30	gtrak	dnolen, unfortunately people don't work this way
16:30	gtrak	maybe even some good coders
16:31	gtrak	so i think marick a victim of that misunderstanding, too
16:32	seancorfield	pjstadig: i think he was taking shots at folks who use agile / scrum / sprints poorly - same with TDD
16:32	seancorfield	gtrak: yes, i was just reading marick's blog posts on the subject
16:32	pjstadig	seancorfield: i don't think that's how it came across
16:32	pjstadig	maybe i'll need to rewatch the video
16:32	seancorfield	it came across differently to different people i suspect :)
16:32	gtrak	pjstadig, seancorfield, the room laughed hard, a few people tweeted distaste
16:33	trptcolin	dnolen: i agree w/ that. but that means jabs at rich for giving those jabs are ok too, right? :)
16:33	seancorfield	i'm on various xp / tdd / software craft mailing lists and the zealotry of (some) xp / tdd goes beyond religion
16:33	melipone	What's "->>" in clojure? sorry for interrupting but I need an answer
16:33	dnolen	trptcolin: of course. I wish the language panel had gone on longer!
16:33	TimMc	melipone: It's a "threading macro"
16:33	pjstadig	dnolen: yes!
16:33	foodoo	melipone: (doc ->>)
16:33	TimMc	melipone: Not to be confused with Threads
16:33	melipone	meaning?
16:34	Bronsa	,(doc ->>)
16:34	trptcolin	haha, yeah, Dean was upset that he accidentally cut it off early
16:34	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
16:34	TimMc	gimme a sec
16:34	foodoo	there are good examples in the full disclojure videos on Vimeo
16:34	foodoo	for ->>
16:34	seancorfield	trptcolin: i was upset that the language panel was 20 minutes short!!
16:34	TimMc	,(macroexpand-1 '(->> 4 (f b) (c) d (e h i)))
16:34	clojurebot	(clojure.core/->> (clojure.core/->> 4 (f b)) (c) d (e h i))
16:35	TimMc	Haha, never mind that one.
16:35	melipone	ha, it's like apply it seems to me
16:35	pjstadig	well for my part i'm not too upset about the whole thing, i think rich was mistaken in some of his comments, but i think on the whole it was valuable information
16:35	TimMc	melipone: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/-%3E%3E
16:35	TimMc	When in doubt, clojuredocs.org
16:35	pjstadig	i do think there tends to be too much hero worship of rich, not to say that he's not a bright guy with good things to say
16:36	wink	pjstadig: ever seen a language community without that?
16:36	TimMc	Java
16:36	wink	(ok, besides c++)
16:36	seancorfield	if TDD is applied well, it's more about evolving the design - but a lot of people claim they're doing TDD when they're not - and it's those people who rich was parodying (in my opinion)
16:36	michaelr525`	rich is my hero! ;)
16:36	melipone	thanks!
16:37	seancorfield	i was actually disappointed that dean's heresies talk didn't take sharper shots at various topics
16:37	foodoo	sorry for my ignorance: What is TDD?
16:37	wink	Tests first
16:37	Bronsa	test driven development
16:37	foodoo	ah
16:37	seancorfield	i thought that was a very "safe" presentation :(
16:38	seancorfield	with clojure i think there's a tendency to use the repl to do what some people do with tdd
16:38	wink	seancorfield: sounds like you know these yearly "the state of django" at pycon :P
16:38	seancorfield	oh?
16:38	wink	it's basically an educated rant about what's wrong
16:38	seancorfield	ah...
16:39	wink	and people sometimes get all upset
16:39	wink	while the core team highly appreciates it
16:39	seancorfield	there should be no sacred cows
16:41	`fogus	Please read and comment on the relevant locations. http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Release.Next+Planning
16:41	`fogus	(relevant locations being mailing list, page comments, and clojure-dev
16:42	cemerick	so I missed the TDD chatterings, eh?
16:43	TimMc	Count yourself lucky.
16:44	pjstadig	Release.Next == 1.4?
16:44	gtrak	Java doesn't have hero worship b/c it's ill-conceived :-)
16:44	pjstadig	what about a 1.3.1 release to address the quick hits that didn't get into 1.3?
16:46	michaelr525`	quick hits?
16:47	pjstadig	documentation changes and bug fixes that we're pretty much ready, but didn't get into 1.3
16:51	michaelr525	pjstadig: why they didn't get there?
16:51	amalloy	michaelr525: 1.3 was taking too long, they wanted to get it out the door
16:52	michaelr525	cool
16:53	michaelr525	well, if I were involved I would probably just be eager to do the interesting stuff..
16:54	michaelr525	like developing new features and such
16:54	pjstadig	michaelr525: right i believe most of these have patches already
16:56	michaelr525	i wonder what motivates the core developers to do their work. i'm pretty sure they are not there for fixing documentation.. hehe :)
16:56	Blafasel	Newbie at it again: (concat a b c) results in '(( 1 2 3 4 5 )' if I println it. (interleave a b c) results in '( 1 2 3 4 5 )' when output. What's the difference? What's the (( here?
16:56	TimMc	michaelr525: I like doing doc work, actually.
16:56	amalloy	Blafasel: i think that is false. provide a concrete a, b, c that produce that behavior
16:57	dnolen	,(concat '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
16:57	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
16:57	michaelr525	TimMc: you're involved in development of clojure?
16:57	dnolen	(interleave '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
16:57	TimMc	,(let [a [1 2] b [3 4] c [5 6]] ((juxt concat interleave) a b c))
16:57	clojurebot	[(1 2 3 4 5 ...) (1 3 5 2 4 ...)]
16:57	TimMc	michaelr525: Nope.
16:58	TimMc	Just noting that not everyone hates doing doc.
16:59	michaelr525	TimMc: you must join the core team then!
16:59	TimMc	Or get my CA in.
16:59	michaelr525	joking..
17:00	michaelr525	CA?
17:00	clojurebot	CA is Contributor Agreement: http://clojure.org/contributing
17:00	michaelr525	clojurebot: thanks robot
17:00	clojurebot	thanks for your suggestion, but as usual it is irrelevant
17:00	gtrak	ha
17:00	TimMc	>_<
17:00	pjstadig	michaelr525: i think this is part of the (perception) problem...that only Clojure/core has super cow powers and everyone else is on the outside
17:01	pjstadig	part of that may just be marketing and communication
17:01	pjstadig	or maybe it is true
17:02	Blafasel	Looking at ProjectEuler's problem number 11 (.. so - early) and my solution looks totally bloated. Probably still caught in the 'use everything that's new in this language to you' effect.
17:03	michaelr525	pjstadig: well that's how it works in human societies. the great thing with open source is you don't have to join you can always fork..
17:03	foodoo	do (transient) and (persistent!) only exist for performance reasons or are there situations where using them is also more elegant?
17:03	gtrak	michaelr525, in practice, that's a terrible idea
17:03	technomancy	foodoo: the former
17:03	TimMc	pjstadig: It certainly doesn't help that I have to find a printer, print the PDF, find a suitable writing implement (!), write actual words on a piece of paper, find stamps and envelopes, write more words, find a mailbox, and drop it in.
17:04	TimMc	When most of my contributions would be little doc tweaks, it is hard to justify that.
17:04	jkkramer	there must be a web app that lets you sign & mail pdfs
17:04	TimMc	I would have to find it. >_<
17:05	jkkramer	at least it doesn't involve navigating the physical world
17:05	TimMc	And I don't know if Core would accept the equivalent of a fax.
17:05	TimMc	I mean, imagine if Wikipedia required a CA...
17:07	gtrak	wikipedia is bigger and moves faster than a language implementation
17:10	michaelr525	gtrak: i think it's not such a terrible idea.. if you want to influence you have to act and though I'm not going to dive into google to look for examples I think there are such cases when people that wanted to change forked the code and made something that later was accepted as the better option... hmm gcc->egcs is a good example i think
17:10	gtrak	michaelr525, yea, those guys were really hostile though
17:11	gtrak	i guess I mean to say, don't fork unless you're going to win
17:11	michaelr525	they were hostile?
17:11	gtrak	yea, the gcc guys
17:11	michaelr525	hehe
17:11	pjstadig	forking is a nuclear option
17:11	jcromartie	who wants to fork?
17:11	gtrak	nobody
17:11	jcromartie	and why?
17:11	jcromartie	ok
17:12	pjstadig	i'd prefer for people to play nice with each other
17:13	michaelr525	sometimes it's a question of ability rather than will :
17:27	amalloy	Blafasel: i put together a quick solution for euler 11, if you're interested
17:27	amalloy	https://gist.github.com/1255015 or i can have a look at yours
17:33	foodoo	Is there some good document explaining good indenting style for clojure?
17:33	gtrak	same as lisp
17:33	amalloy	$googe mumble scheme style
17:34	amalloy	$google mumble scheme style
17:34	lazybot	[Riastradh's Lisp Style Rules - mumble.net main page] http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
17:34	foodoo	s/clojure/lisp/
17:34	lazybot	<foodoo> Is there some good document explaining good indenting style for lisp?
17:34	foodoo	thanks
17:34	duck1123	I always follow the rule, take whatever emacs gives you
17:35	amalloy	duck1123: indeed. there are a couple things it could do better, though
17:35	amalloy	eg, try ((juxt + -) 10 <newline> 5) - 5 goes in a place that seems definitely wrong
17:36	duck1123	Well, I have a rather large list of things that are counted as defs
17:36	amalloy	duck1123: using clojure-defun-indents?
17:36	wink	hm, counterclockwise does things that appear a bit weird at times
17:37	duck1123	define-clojure-indent is what I have
17:37	amalloy	duck1123: try M-x customize-var clojure-defun-indents
17:37	foodoo	duck1123: That would mean, I need to switch to Emacs from Vim ;)
17:37	amalloy	i added that in 1.7 or so and i love it. much easier than defining that crap yourself
17:38	duck1123	very nice. I'll switch over
17:39	foodoo	amalloy: You are from the 4clojure team, right? Is there a way to see if the people I follow do code golfing? Because when I look at their solutions I'd like to know if their solutions are made for elegance or shortness
17:40	amalloy	duck1123: the other indentation thing i think emacs does atrociously is https://gist.github.com/1255043
17:41	amalloy	here sam should line up with when, not bar; but the introduction of baz causes it to get confused
17:41	duck1123	agreed. I find I end up inserting too many line breaks just to make it look normal
17:41	amalloy	foodoo: not really. i'm susprised it's ever hard to tell, though?
17:43	foodoo	amalloy: Sometimes. But that could also mean that the users try to be clever instead of idomatic and clean
17:45	foodoo	amalloy: But even if they do code golfing, there is usually something I can learn from the solutions :)
17:46	amalloy	foodoo: i learn a lot from people trying to cram the most amount of logic into the least amount of code
17:46	foodoo	amalloy: But I'm also interested in developing a good coding style in the lispy world
18:11	seancorfield	i like the focus of Clojure 1.4 (documentation around core and contrib) :)
18:12	dnolen	agreed
18:12	dnolen	and errors
18:13	ibdknox	did I miss that statement?
18:13	seancorfield	yes, although stack traces are more of an issue imo
18:13	ibdknox	seancorfield: I dunno, just look at some of these:
18:13	ibdknox	,(doc bound-fn)
18:13	clojurebot	"([& fntail]); Returns a function defined by the given fntail, which will install the same bindings in effect as in the thread at the time bound-fn was called. This may be used to define a helper function which runs on a different thread, but needs the same bindings in place."
18:13	dnolen	seancorfield: I take it you haven't looked at 1.3 stacktraces yet?
18:14	seancorfield	i use 1.3 all the time :)
18:14	dnolen	seancorfield: no Java stuff, and unmunged
18:14	seancorfield	oh, were the stack traces worse in 1.2?
18:14	ibdknox	lol
18:14	technomancy	clj-stacktrace is still a lot nicer
18:14	technomancy	especially the alignment, though the coloring helps too
18:15	dnolen	seancorfield: haha, 1.2 stack traces would have terrified you then.
18:16	zerokarmaleft	dnolen: but they were only 20+ levels deep!
18:16	seancorfield	mostly, for me, clojure exceptions escape into non-clojure calling code so there's not much clojure can do to help me there :)
18:16	dnolen	seancorfield: ah then you would have preferred the old way.
18:16	dnolen	seancorfield: the whole thing needs knobs.
18:17	ibdknox_	and objects that we can inspect and do useful things with :)
18:17	seancorfield	i guess i could look at the root of the exception chain and call a clojure fn to pretty print the stacktrace instead...
18:17	seancorfield	i'm already calling all sorts of clojure stuff from non-clojure code :)
18:19	gtrak	at some point you can't escape from needing to know java and the jvm
18:19	ibdknox_	unless you're in CLJS ;) then you just need to know JS... damn
18:20	gtrak	yes, actually, it's not terribly hard to debug as I thought it would be, and I don't know any js at all
18:22	gtrak	the hardest part of clojurescript is reading the closure api code
18:23	ibdknox_	heh
18:23	ibdknox_	use pinot ;)
18:23	gtrak	pinot?
18:23	ibdknox_	github.com/ibdknox/pinot
18:23	ibdknox_	http://github.com/ibdknox/pinot
18:24	gtrak	ah, you're adding canvas stuff
18:25	ibdknox_	over the past little bit yes
18:25	gtrak	i was working on a little game engine using google's api's
18:25	ibdknox_	ah :)
18:25	ibdknox_	don't use seqs, it'll be too slow :-p
18:25	gtrak	i was trying to figure out how to remove a rectangle and got stuck
18:25	ibdknox_	remove a rectangle?
18:25	gtrak	yea, you know the graphics.createRect or whatever?
18:26	ibdknox_	I just wrote my own, since I was porting over some stuff I did for the node knockout
18:26	gtrak	node.js does graphics?
18:27	ibdknox_	it could, but no, I wrote a game :) http://wrench-labs.nko2.nodeknockout.com/
18:27	gtrak	ah yea, I played that
18:27	gtrak	super easy :-)
18:27	ibdknox_	I know
18:27	ibdknox_	lol
18:27	ibdknox_	didn't get to play test it much :( haha
18:28	gtrak	is that all canvas then?
18:28	ibdknox_	yessir
18:29	gtrak	I'll take a look at pinot then, no use reinventing wheels
18:31	gtrak	but you've hard-coded the looping intervals
18:31	ibdknox_	hm?
18:31	ibdknox_	you should be using animation frame to handle the render loop
18:31	ibdknox_	and 10 ms is pretty standard for the update loop
18:32	gtrak	so the update is asynchronous to the draw?
18:32	gtrak	I'm used to doing it all in frames
18:32	ibdknox_	yep, you need it to be to ensure consistency
18:32	ibdknox_	otherwise a game would play differently every time
18:33	gtrak	ibdknox, how so?
18:34	ibdknox_	gtrak: http://gameclosure.com/2011/04/11/deterministic-delta-tee-in-js-games/
18:34	gtrak	only if it takes longer than a frame to do stuff, yes?
18:34	gtrak	i'm completely new to js, btw
18:35	ibdknox_	no worries, I just thought that was a better explanation than I could give here :)
18:35	gtrak	yea, np, I mean, I'm used to C++ thinking for game stuff
18:37	gtrak	so does the browser interrupt execution to handle a timer?
18:38	ibdknox_	I'm actually not sure how that happens. I know with the more recent versions it's extremely complex now
18:38	kjeldahl	ibdknox_ Great link, thanks!
18:38	ibdknox_	like request animation frame operates outside of the rules of normal timers
18:39	ibdknox_	and monitors screen refresh rate
18:39	gtrak	sure, but you always can believe js is a single thread, yes? so the old school interrupt model of saving the stack is a decent analogy?
18:39	ibdknox_	yeah
18:40	ibdknox_	except for animationframe I think
18:40	ibdknox_	lol
18:40	gtrak	ha
18:40	gtrak	wonderful
18:40	brehaut	and web workers
18:40	ibdknox_	I won't claim to know a ton about this part of JS myself, though, so I could be making it up :)
18:40	ibdknox_	that was the first game I had written
18:41	gtrak	well, are there any js forums with good snr?
18:41	brehaut	the rules around when animationFrame, timeouts, intervals and web worker/socket events enter JS are all different, and i think differ between browsers too
18:43	gtrak	also is there any progress on dealing with cljs libs? what's the modern way?
18:44	ibdknox_	well
18:44	ibdknox_	if you use cljs-watch
18:44	crazyFox	what could be the reason that 'lein search clj-stacktrace' doesnt show version 0.2.3 even though i can see it on clojars.org?
18:44	ibdknox_	you can just do it like you do with any lein project
18:44	ibdknox_	add [pinot "0.1.1-SNAPSHOT"] to your project.clj and roll with it :)
18:45	gtrak	wait, huh?
18:45	gtrak	cljs uses project.clj?
18:45	ibdknox_	I usually create leiningen projects for them because there's some server showing the page
18:46	gtrak	does the compiler care about what subdirectory stuff is in or can I do what I want there?
18:47	gtrak	thinking I could just pull in the git repo and hack away
18:48	ibdknox_	any dir is fine
19:05	symbole	I can't find a good example of gen-class outside a namespace declaration. I do (gen-class :name "foo.Bar"). When I try to (compile 'foo.Bar), it says that fool/Bar_int.class foo/Bar.clj is not in the classpath.
19:08	Blafasel	,(doc pr)
19:08	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & more]); Prints the object(s) to the output stream that is the current value of out. Prints the object(s), separated by spaces if there is more than one. By default, pr and prn print in a way that objects can be read by the reader"
19:08	Blafasel	,(doc print)
19:08	clojurebot	"([& more]); Prints the object(s) to the output stream that is the current value of out. print and println produce output for human consumption."
19:09	ibdknox_	,(pr ["hey" "how" "are" "you"])
19:09	clojurebot	["hey" "how" "are" "you"]
19:09	ibdknox_	,(print ["hey" "how" "are" "you"])
19:09	clojurebot	[hey how are you]
19:19	jli	I think I'm gonna do a "best of Hacker News" thing that polls the site continuously and just sends you the best stories at the end of the week
19:19	jli	there's cool stuff on it, but usually only a couple a day. but they move off the page within a day or two, so you have to read it every day to not miss stuff
19:22	jli	this must already exist... oh well
19:25	ibdknox_	jli: As long as it always grabs anything with ibdknox in it, sounds like it'd be a winner ;)
19:26	jli	ibdknox_: but of course :)
19:26	ibdknox_	I know there was such a thing
19:26	crazyFox	technomancy: are you around?
19:27	ibdknox_	but now I can't find it
19:33	crazyFox	could anybody help me with slamhound? when i run 'lein slamhound <my/namespace>' it fails to find some symbol defined in an other file (same project) and throws an exception. i dunno what i can do ^^
19:37	symbole	crazyFox: What's the exact error?
19:39	crazyFox	(after a lot of warnings about earmuffed vars) it says "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Couldn't resolve layout-step, got as far as ..."
19:40	symbole	you're running it from the root of your project?
19:40	crazyFox	yea
19:41	symbole	Can you dump the whole thing somewhere?
19:43	crazyFox	symbole: error message from leiningen: http://pastebin.com/Pby7GHB8
19:46	crazyFox	symbole: project.clj and directory tree: http://pastebin.com/T9X2XWML
19:46	symbole	Firewall is blocking it. Grrrr! Try this please http://paste2.org/
19:46	TimMc	or github
19:47	TimMc	~gist
19:47	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:47	TimMc	~paste
19:47	clojurebot	paste is http://gist.github.com/
19:48	dnolen	ClojureScript stacktraces from Browser REPL - sweet
19:49	crazyFox	symbole: its all here http://paste2.org/p/1682074
19:50	symbole	crazyFox: Are you using Clojure 1.3?
19:50	crazyFox	yes
19:52	konr	What's the cheapest way to host a clojure web app?
19:52	zodiak	konr heroku
19:53	TimMc	home server
19:53	ibdknox_	cheapest?
19:53	ibdknox_	elastic beanstalk is way cheaper than heroku
19:53	zodiak	heroku is free, how do you get cheaper ?
19:54	ibdknox_	heroku is free for one dyno
19:54	konr	yeah, I don't to spend lots of money in a web forum, nor mix it with my personal data
19:54	konr	thanks zodiak!
19:54	zodiak	de nada
19:54	konr	ibdknox_: elastic beanstalk! I'll take a look! Thanks :)
19:54	ibdknox_	as is elastic beanstalk
19:54	ibdknox_	the minute you want anything more than that though... :)
19:56	ibdknox_	konr: if you wanna do heroku here's a tutorial: http://thecomputersarewinning.com/post/clojure-heroku-noir-mongo
19:56	seancorfield	clojure.contrib.duck-streams - that's in contrib 1.2.0 but not listed in the modules here: https://github.com/clojure/clojure-contrib/tree/master/modules
19:56	seancorfield	what was it? where did it go? or was it deprecated?
19:57	konr	ibdknox_: thanks!
19:57	ibdknox_	seancorfield: I think part of it was pulled into java.io, and the rest disappeared? People are often looking for it though
19:58	crazyFox	symbole: is clojure 1.3 a problem?
19:59	TimMc	ibdknox_: Would you say Heroku or EB is easier to get started with?
19:59	ibdknox_	TimMc: roughly equivalent, Heroku is probably a bit less of a pain to sign up with
19:59	TimMc	k
19:59	ibdknox_	the heroku workflow is beautiful too :)
20:00	seancorfield	yeah, +1 for heroku
20:00	ibdknox_	The only problem is it can get a little expensive
20:00	ibdknox_	on an AWS box I can run 20 sites if I wanted
20:00	ibdknox_	for heroku, each one is a separate dyno and costs me money individually
20:01	seancorfield	right, as you scale up, you usually have to move off heroku to aws or rackspace cloud or something
20:01	konr	I think I'll stick with EB, then
20:02	seancorfield	clojure.contrib.pprint became... clojure.pprint, right?
20:02	gfredericks	either that or they have suspiciously similar names and functionality
20:04	seancorfield	ooh, where did clojure.contrib.shell and clojure.contrib.shell-out go?
20:04	ibdknox_	seancorfield: clojure.java.shell
20:04	seancorfield	thanx!
20:06	seancorfield	i removed all the contrib stuff from http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Libraries because it was horribly out of date (stuart sierra sanctioned the removal)
20:07	seancorfield	there were a lot of c.c.* namespaces i'd never heard of and can't find documented anywhere so i assume those vanished even before 1.2.0 came out...
20:08	ibdknox_	predates me, so I'm not sure :)
20:08	dnolen	seancorfield: yes about pprint
20:09	konr	What's the best way to check out existing software? Clojars?
20:09	dnolen	konr: checkout? or use?
20:09	ibdknox_	konr: what are you looking for?
20:09	konr	dnolen, ibdknox_ I want to check out for existing forum software in clojure
20:10	seancorfield	ibdknox_: clojure.contrib.apply-macro and clojure.contrib.condt for example... never made it into contrib 1.2.0
20:10	ibdknox_	I don't think there is any
20:10	ibdknox_	seancorfield: ah, I see
20:10	seancorfield	konr: there are very few full-fledged web applications available in clojure yet - just lots of tools for building such things
20:11	seancorfield	dnolen: tx for the confirm on pprint
20:11	glob157-1	Any good way to build publication quality charts from in canter?
20:12	dnolen	seancorfield: you mean full fledged open-source web applications, there are closed source ones.
20:12	ibdknox_	yeah
20:12	dnolen	konr: some stuff on github
20:12	ibdknox_	there aren't many prepackaged solutions for clojure
20:13	ibdknox_	only thing I can think of is cowblog
20:13	ibdknox_	https://github.com/briancarper/cow-blog
20:14	seancorfield	dnolen: oh? what full fledged web apps are built in clojure?
20:14	ibdknox_	seancorfield: www.typewire.io
20:14	ibdknox_	:)
20:15	seancorfield	heh, i meant downloadable products, not websites
20:15	ibdknox_	hm web apps = downloadable?
20:15	ibdknox_	gmail is a web app
20:15	seancorfield	desikiss.com, lovingbbw.com, latinromantico.com, deafsinglesmeet.com and vietvibe.com have a fair bit of clojure behind them too :)
20:16	seancorfield	downloadable... you download the app and install it to run on your own web/app server... wordpress, django, joomla are the sorts of things i mean
20:17	ibdknox_	ahh, I see
20:17	seancorfield	phpbb
20:17	ibdknox_	cow blog is it, as far as I know :)
20:17	seancorfield	cfml (coldfusion) has a bunch of downloadable web apps (mostly free open source) but nothing as polished as some of the php stuff
20:18	seancorfield	i'd be surprised if clojure saw much take up in that area - i don't get the impression that sort of development is common amongst java / scala / clojure type developers...
20:19	ibdknox_	those systems are usually very, very painful to work with
20:19	ibdknox_	once upon a time ago I worked on a number of drupal and joomla sites shudder
20:19	dnolen	seancorfield: tho I don't see anything preventing such things. I didn't totally hate the Django model.
20:20	seancorfield	true, and i'd love to see more of it out there... i've been championing that cause in the cfml community for years (without a huge amount of success)
20:23	ibdknox_	django is a framework though, not a complete end to end solution
20:23	robermann	,((fn [] '( + 1 2)))
20:23	clojurebot	(+ 1 2)
20:23	robermann	,(((fn [] '( + 1 2))))
20:23	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
20:23	robermann	Can I run ((fn [] '( + 1 2))) ?
20:24	robermann	I mean; how can I evaluate dinamically a '(+ 1 2) without using eval?
20:26	gfredericks	robermann: what's the purpose
20:27	gfredericks	obviously if it was the expression (+ 1 2) you were trying to evaluate you'd just put it there; it's not clear what you're after
20:27	robermann	I resolved this problem using eval: http://4clojure.com/problem/121
20:27	robermann	but I "tripped the alarm!"
20:27	gfredericks	ah hah
20:27	robermann	:)
20:27	gfredericks	I think the key here is that the set of possible functions is restricted
20:28	gfredericks	you don't have to deal with arbitrary clojure code, just the pieces specified in the problem
20:28	robermann	yep - but here eval is not listed: http://4clojure.com/directions
20:28	gfredericks	so what you want is a function that takes a list as input, looks at it, and decides what to do
20:29	gfredericks	I'm not sure what you mean by it not being mentioned in the directions
20:30	robermann	They say that "to use "def" or switch namespaces" is not allowed - I thought using eval was permitted :)
20:30	seancorfield	4clojure questions used to explicitly state which functions you couldn't use in the solution - i'd imagine eval is disallowed for safety reasons (so you can't execute malicious code and take down the service)
20:30	gfredericks	and certainly it violates the spirit of that particular problem
20:30	robermann	yes, I can see
20:30	dnolen	ibdknox: true, though it has those too.
20:31	robermann	mm so, given an input list like '(+ 1 2) I should be able to evaluate it right?
20:32	robermann	and of course ('(+ 1 2)) does not work
20:33	robermann	mmm here 2:30 am maybe too tired :D
20:37	seancorfield	robermann: it's asking you to write a function that takes an expression and returns a function that evaluates, when given a map of argument values
20:38	seancorfield	so (f '(+ a 2)) would return some function, call it g, that when called like this (g {:a 4}) would return 6
20:40	seancorfield	the returned function has to recursively walk the expression and evaluate it by inspecting the code and supporting just + - * / numbers and lookup of variables
20:40	seancorfield	does that help?
20:41	robermann	yes I wrote http://pastebin.com/Z19GM8Sd but I'm stuck with that eval
20:41	robermann	so I should execute that symbol browsing the list
20:42	robermann	I mean, decoding all the + - etc
20:42	TimMc	Look it up in a map.
20:42	robermann	ok, I think I understood your advice
20:42	TimMc	If you weren't restricted by the sandbox, you would use resolve. :-)
20:42	robermann	thank you all :)
20:49	seancorfield	you're basically writing an interpreter for a small subset of lisp :)
20:51	TimMc	Yeah, this reminds me quite strongly of PL class at Northeastern.
20:51	TimMc	whatchamacallit, a metacircular evaluator
20:52	robermann	yes - my first step towards a new Clojure 2.0 ! :)
20:57	robermann	so men - good hacking and good night/morning
20:57	robermann	see you
20:58	seancorfield	of course now i had to go and solve the problem myself because i couldn't focus on my work until i had!
20:58	seancorfield	4clojure is quite a bit slicker since i last played
20:59	amalloy	seancorfield: a lot of pending improvements just waiting to be deployed, too
20:59	robermann	I know - and it causes addiction too
20:59	robermann	so... no, really I have to go to bed :D
20:59	robermann	bye
21:00	seancorfield	lol, g'nite robermann
21:00	seancorfield	amalloy: the ajaxy stuff around running the code is very slick - nice work
21:00	seancorfield	(to whoever wrote that part)
21:01	amalloy	seancorfield: a transient contributor, i think, who we haven't seen since. it's definitely nice to be open-source
21:02	seancorfield	sigh... i last played when there were 65 problems
21:02	seancorfield	i might have to waste a weekend catching up :)
21:03	amalloy	seancorfield: more than a weekend. there are some tough problems now
21:04	seancorfield	no... must... not... get... distracted...!
21:21	jli	hm
21:22	jli	I'm running a ring webapp with a gzip middleware
21:22	jli	and using apache as a proxy in front of it, so I can hide the random port I'm running jetty on
21:23	jli	accessing jetty directly is close to instant, while through apache, there seems to be a weird ~15s timeout
21:23	jli	and disabling the gzip middleware in ring fixes it. any ideas?
21:26	jli	looking at the tcpdump, there's a Keep-Alive timeout of 15s, which is the time it takes to load
21:27	TimMc	Can you muck with the timeout?
21:27	TimMc	(for diagnosis)
21:30	jli	what would I learn?
21:30	TimMc	Whether it is a coincidence. :-)
21:30	jli	pretty sure not - it's 15s plus some millis in the tcpdump timestamp
21:35	jli	hm. I wonder if apache is gzipping it again or something...
21:36	jli	ah ha!
21:38	jli	the original length of the file is 79k. gzipped, it's only 22k. when using the gzip middleware + apache proxy, the Content-Length is 79k.
21:38	jli	the browser must be waiting for the "rest" of the data
21:39	amalloy	jli: ooc what gzip middleware are you using?
21:40	amalloy	the problem you're having sounds like one i ran into when i was writing my own gzip middleware
21:40	jli	org.clojars.mikejs/ring-gzip-middleware
21:40	jli	the version perhaps should have tipped me off
21:40	jli	0.1.0-SNAPSHOT
21:41	amalloy	jli: i think that's the base i used to write my own
21:42	amalloy	you might try out [amalloy/ring-gzip-middleware "0.1.0"]
21:42	amalloy	which has two improvements over mikejs: i fixed the content-length issue by dissoc'ing out the content-length when gziping; and i don't load the whole reponse into memory before gzipping. instead i stream it on another thread
21:44	amalloy	oh, i even forked his repo. good for me
21:44	jli	ah, sweet
21:44	amalloy	https://github.com/amalloy/ring-gzip-middleware/commit/533a08
21:44	jli	would ring take it?
21:45	amalloy	jli: like, make it a part of ring proper? perhaps, but who cares
21:46	jli	amalloy: can you remind me how http works? is Content-Length only necessary when using keep-alive? how does the client know it has all the data - the tcp connection closes?
21:47	amalloy	jli: i don't know the full answer to that question. but i think when ring doesn't know the full length it specifies Transfer-Encoding: Chunked
21:48	amalloy	then it sends a bunch of blocks, "this chunk is N bytes, here they are"
21:48	amalloy	the last chunk is of zero length, perhaps?
21:49	jli	amalloy: ah, I do see "Transfer-Encoding: chunked" with the response ending in "0" for my index.html, with no Content-Length
21:50	jli	and for my big javascript file, I see the incorrect Content-Length (it's the length of the original file)
21:50	jli	but then it looks like the tcp connection closes right after, so the browser puts up with it and displays what it has, I guess
21:50	jli	hm.
21:51	amalloy	but apache won't put up with that while proxying? plausible, i suppose
21:52	jli	when going through the apache proxy, I see Keep-Alive headers
21:52	jli	so I think the tcp connection stays open until it finally times out 15s later
21:52	amalloy	i see
21:52	jli	at which point the page loads correctly
21:52	amalloy	anyway: use my fork, problem solved?
21:52	jli	yeah, I think so :)
21:56	amalloy	jli: fwiw, 4clojure uses it to gzip all its content and hasn't had trouble. so it's at least a little battle-tested
21:58	jli	amalloy: sweet. I think the bug is unambiguously caused by the gzip middleware keeping the incorrect Content-Length, right? i just wasn't noticing before because keep-alive wasn't in play.
21:59	jli	how did you notice the bug?
21:59	amalloy	i don't remember. it was months ago
21:59	amalloy	probably the same way you did
21:59	jli	oh, maybe because you realized you couldn't know if you were streaming it?
21:59	amalloy	oh, of course
22:01	jli	heh
22:01	jli	cool.
22:02	amalloy	i wonder why i cared so much about not reading the whole thing into memory at once
22:03	jli	amalloy: do you no longer think it matters?
22:04	amalloy	shrug i still think it's "right" not to read it all
22:07	amalloy	oh right, i was going on a performance binge, improving page load/render speed for 4clojure
22:08	amalloy	and we were serving up, uncached and unzipped, like 1MB of javascript
22:08	amalloy	so i zipped it, and attached headers/meta to avoid retransferring if nothing has changed
22:11	amalloy	gfredericks: that actually happens
22:12	gfredericks	amalloy: he's under pressure to put something good on the monthly report that the CIO will glance at?
22:13	amalloy	gfredericks: whiny users tell him they wish 4clojure.com redirected to www.4clojure.com instead of transparently serving the same content
22:13	gfredericks	how does that inconvenience anybody?
22:13	gfredericks	I guess stuff could get indexed twice...
22:14	amalloy	gfredericks: broswer doesn't know the cookies/passwords are the same
22:14	gfredericks	oh and that
22:14	gfredericks	why doesn't technology just work?
22:14	gfredericks	doesn't it know what it should do?
22:14	jli	DWIM!
22:14	amalloy	so a couple days ago i made the webserver multi-host-aware, and while i was at it said to not serve cookies at all if the host is static.4clojure.com
22:15	amalloy	these changes not yet deployed, though :P
22:15	jli	amalloy: true hilarity. using your gzip middleware, Content-Length isn't there anymore. BUT I think Apache has the same bug. using the apache proxy, I see the same incorrect Content-Length header
22:16	jli	or maybe I'm wrong. double-checking
22:16	amalloy	huhhhh, how can it?
22:16	amalloy	apache doesn't even have a guess as to what content-length to serve, it's just delegating
22:17	jli	no, I'm wrong. seems like it's still using the old library somehow? grr
22:20	jayunit100	hahahahahahah
22:21	gfredericks	,(println "&(println \"hahahahahahah\")")
22:22	clojurebot	&(println "hahahahahahah")
22:22	lazybot	⇒ hahahahahahah nil
22:27	jayunit100	@gfredricks whats the comma do
22:28	gfredericks	gets clojurebot's attention
22:28	gfredericks	he likes commas
22:28	jayunit100	oooo ok lol
22:51	jli	amalloy_: ack, just blew 30 minutes on this. didn't run "lein clean", so I guess I was still using the /old/ ring.middleware.gzip :/
22:52	jli	0.5 hours down, 9,999.5 left to go :)
22:56	amcnamara	we just updated 4clojure with a new look (and small fixes to ranking and solutions pages), would love some feedback
22:56	amcnamara	everyone ^
22:58	jli	did the logo change recently?
23:00	dnolen	cemerick: you're being nice, but I think Marick is indeed trolling. On multiple fronts.
23:01	cemerick	heh
23:01	cemerick	I don't know. But then, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, especially online.
23:02	trptcolin	and here i thought rich was trolling w/ the whole driving-into-the-guardrails thing :)
23:02	cemerick	trptcolin: oh, Rich was definitely trolling ;-)
23:02	cemerick	I think that was pretty explicit.
23:02	cemerick	But I think the point is, that should be OK — it's his keynote, after all.
23:03	trptcolin	fair
23:03	cemerick	It'd be a horrible thing to have to live in a PR cocoon in order to build a "successful" community/language.
23:03	cemerick	It's certainly not required: I remember witnessing all sorts of mayhem anytime Guido talked down FP.
23:04	cemerick	And there, he actually kept stuff out of the language, preventing people from doing certain things. I don't think Rich is going to pull X from Clojure, because he happens to not like TDD or whatever.
23:05	jli	elementary 4clojure problem taught me something. didn't expect (= [:a :b :c] '(:a :b :c))
23:05	dnolen	cemerick: trptcolin: trolling and criticism are not the same. Criticism attacks an idea, we can all stay rational. Marick attacks people w/ an idea, there's no rational response.
23:05	cemerick	Anyway…I'm writing up a comment. Hopefully Brian will be less stressed once the real video is out, etc.
23:06	trptcolin	dnolen: c'mon, that metaphor?
23:06	trptcolin	i'm all for rational criticism
23:06	trptcolin	and funny metaphors
23:06	dnolen	"The dodgy attitudes come from the Clojure core, especially Rich Hickey himself, I’m sad to say."
23:06	dnolen	that's a hard line to justify.
23:06	cemerick	dnolen: If you self-identify with a particular idea, then criticism of it is viewed as criticism of you. The "recipient" doesn't (can't) distinguish the two.
23:07	amcnamara	since when does the core team have dodgy attitudes?
23:07	ibdknox	hm
23:07	trptcolin	yeah, i'm not defending marick's sound bites. i'm just saying i felt like rich was trying to get a rise out of people
23:07	gfredericks	cemerick: as someone who self-identifies with lots of ideas, I take offense at that personal attack!
23:07	ibdknox	things were a little heated lately I think
23:08	trptcolin	some of it was reasonable, some purely funny metaphor
23:08	cemerick	ibdknox: Indeed. I don't think using twitter as the main vehicle of discourse helped much, either.
23:08	trptcolin	+1
23:08	ibdknox	not at all.
23:09	dnolen	trptcolin: I would agree w/o you - except Marick be naming names - not cool.
23:09	ibdknox	cemerick: I kept out of it, because I don't think a lot of the way discussion has been happening lately has been effective. The Conj will be very interesting.
23:09	amalloy	jli: yes, new logo is part of (indeed most of) the new look
23:10	cark	whatwhat ? there's a new clojure logo ?
23:10	cemerick	There's a little drama at every language/community-specific conf.
23:10	jli	cemerick: yes. it's really unfortunate people try to squish coherent thoughts into 140chars. I don't think it's possible.
23:11	jli	cark: not clojure itself, http://4clojure.org
23:11	cemerick	jli: Human nature. We'll try to squish coherent thought into smoke signals, too. :-)
23:11	ibdknox	cemerick: yes, but I'm hoping something good comes out of it. :)
23:11	jli	not... enough... bits... :(
23:11	trptcolin	dnolen: yeah, not how i would've approached it; though i'm not as married to agile/tdd
23:13	danlarkin	I have a question which is entirely unrelated to drama
23:13	jli	YES!
23:13	danlarkin	cons : list :: ? : hashmap
23:13	danlarkin	the cons cell, I should say
23:14	jli	you mean, what's the underlying data structure?
23:14	cemerick	lists aren't made of conses, so I'm not sure what to put in ?
23:14	danlarkin	jli: I suppose... more like what's the most simplistic reduction
23:15	dnolen	,(conj {} '[foo bar])
23:15	danlarkin	cemerick: this is kind of a "let's pretend they are" situation
23:15	clojurebot	{foo bar}
23:15	dnolen	there is no cons, only conj
23:15	trptcolin	,(type (first {:a "b"}))
23:15	clojurebot	clojure.lang.MapEntry
23:15	cemerick	danlarkin: then, as dnolen demonstrated, entries
23:15	dnolen	conj : ?
23:16	jli	cemerick: what do you mean lists aren't made of conses?
23:16	scgilardi	and MapEntries print as two-element vectors and two-element vectors can be auto-converted to map entries as needed.
23:16	cemerick	jli: They aren't. They are in other lisps; not so in Clojure.
23:17	trptcolin	rainbows and unicorns!!!
23:17	trptcolin	sorry couldn't resist
23:17	gfredericks	is (cons 'foo []) a cons?
23:17	cemerick	a head object, and a tail list
23:17	danlarkin	yes, I suppose MapEntry fits in the question mark slot
23:17	dnolen	,(type (cons 1 nil))
23:17	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
23:18	dnolen	,(type (cons 1 ())
23:18	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
23:18	gfredericks	cemerick: I do not know the difference between that and a cons
23:18	dnolen	,(type (cons 1 ()))
23:18	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
23:18	jli	cemerick: are you talking about what users should think about, vs. implementation details?
23:19	cemerick	jli: one shouldn't generally think about conses or lists. Think of collections and seqs.
23:19	cemerick	The latter are abstractions. The former are impementations.
23:20	jli	cemerick: right, yeah. but I'm talking about implementation :)
23:20	jli	or, interested in knowing about
23:20	ibdknox	cemerick: I hear you're visiting us in san fran soon?
23:20	cemerick	jli: well, lists aren't made of conses :-)
23:20	trptcolin	amalloy: i like the new 4clojure look. haven't visited in awhile; especially like the not-yet-solved-at-the-top view
23:21	cemerick	cons == clojure.lang.Cons
23:21	amalloy	trptcolin: yeah, that's new as of...monday?
23:21	jli	cemerick: gack, so what are they made of then?
23:21	cemerick	clojure.lang.PersistentList never uses it
23:21	danlarkin	and for everyone's edification, clojure.lang.MapEntry has two ivars, final Object _key and final Object _val.... makes perfect sense!
23:21	cemerick	jli: a head object, and a tail list
23:21	trptcolin	oh really? i seriously haven't been in months; picked a great time to come back!
23:22	cemerick	ibdknox: yeah, seancorfield recruited me (tbatchelli did earlier as well) :-)
23:22	cemerick	Java One, talk there on Tuesday, then you guys on Thursday.
23:22	cemerick	It'll be…interesting ;-)
23:23	cemerick	Especially since the thursday talk's content isn't implemented completely, nevermind prepared fully.
23:23	ibdknox	cemerick: haha, well if you need anything, let me know. I'd be happy to help.
23:23	jli	cemerick: why's that functionally different from cons? because cons have 2 pointers to arbitrary things, and so aren't necessarily well-formed lists?
23:23	gfredericks	cemerick: so by 'conses' you were simply referring to the class by that name?
23:23	dnolen	anyone know what abedra's gonna talk about at the Script Bowl?
23:23	gfredericks	jli: PersistentList has two privates: _first and _rest
23:23	dnolen	,(cons 1 (lazy-seq nil))
23:23	clojurebot	(1)
23:24	dnolen	,(type (cons 1 (lazy-seq nil)))
23:24	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
23:24	cemerick	gfredericks: well, yes; those are what `cons` return
23:24	dnolen	,(type (cons 1 (list 2 3)))
23:24	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
23:25	gfredericks	cemerick: I've always thought of "a cons" in the noun sense as an abstractish data structure consisting of a pair, which is most often an object and a list
23:25	cemerick	jli: IIRC, using conses directly made the lazy sequence abstraction less lazy.
23:25	dnolen	,(type (conj 1 (list 2 3)))
23:25	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection>
23:25	cemerick	There's a wiki page about that somewhere, I think.
23:25	dnolen	,(type (conj (list 2 3) 1))
23:25	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
23:26	cemerick	ibdknox: Thanks. Things should go smoothly. We'll see how quickly I tame the ClojureScript… ;-)
23:26	dnolen	cemerick: ClojureScript is very tameable - initial thoughts?
23:26	cemerick	gfredericks: well, clojure conses are never any pair; the tail must be a seq.
23:27	cemerick	Not being able to create a dotted pair is probably already a bridge too far if you're really married to the cons concept.
23:28	dnolen	gfredericks: tho if you want dotted pairs, there's always core.logic
23:29	jli	dnolen: I've done some little things with clojurescript - it's fun! I can pretend to be a web programmer now :)
23:29	ibdknox	web programming sucks ;)
23:30	jli	dnolen: but I feel like without really knowing javascript, I'm probably creating a ton of memory leaks. like with event handlers. I guess I should be removing them from the dom elements if I remove the dom elements?
23:31	dnolen	jli: leaks mostly problematic in ancient browsers like IE6
23:31	cemerick	dnolen: I don't see any blockers for what I'm doing, though I'm off the beaten track (if such a thing exists yet).
23:31	dnolen	jli: if you abstract over google events, you're probably ok
23:31	jli	dnolen: oh, so event handlers on removed dom elements get GC'd?
23:31	ibdknox	jli: most libraries prevent that from happening now
23:31	cemerick	It is a definitely bummer that cljs isn't available from a repo yet though; that is a pain.
23:32	jli	cemerick: what do you mean?
23:32	ibdknox	cemerick: I tried
23:32	cemerick	I may offer to fix that; I thought I saw an issue for that.
23:32	cemerick	ibdknox: oh?
23:32	dnolen	cemerick: well … I wonder how serious rhickey is about no releases for CLJS
23:33	cemerick	dnolen: Is there a link for such a statement?
23:33	dnolen	#strangeloop
23:33	cemerick	ah
23:33	technomancy	having to set $CLOJURESCRIPT_HOME makes me cringe and think of hadoop a bit =\
23:33	cemerick	I will aim to disabuse him of that notion, then.
23:33	dnolen	I know's he's pissed about Clojure releases
23:33	ibdknox	cemerick: I couldn't ever figure out what was going on, but it never worked consistently. I even started tearing the compiler apart to figure out what was breaking. For some reason it would stop being able to compile and read core.cljs
23:33	cemerick	./bootstrap.sh, the new autoconf
23:34	ibdknox	I haven't tried lately
23:34	ibdknox	maybe I'll give it another go
23:34	technomancy	cemerick: careful; autoconf is very nearly in "don't even joke about it" territory =)
23:34	cemerick	technomancy: in a good or bad way?
23:34	cemerick	I assume the latter
23:34	dnolen	technomancy: you getting on the CLJS bandwagon now?!
23:35	cemerick	dnolen: the actual release process, or the community extracurriculars?
23:35	technomancy	dnolen: not sure, but probably at some point now that I work for a company that does web apps =)
23:35	dnolen	technomancy: figured!
23:36	cemerick	ibdknox: so you tried to bundle it up and use it 'headless'?
23:36	dnolen	cemerick: I think he's unhappy with people waiting around for official releases. He seemed more interested in the Google Closure model.
23:36	ibdknox	cemerick: https://github.com/ibdknox/noir-cljs
23:37	ibdknox	cemerick: essentially, yes
23:38	cemerick	dnolen: the "send out a tarball from svn" model, that is?
23:38	dnolen	cemerick: no - everyone just works off HEAD model.
23:39	cemerick	heh, yeah
23:39	technomancy	that's the slime model
23:39	dnolen	technomancy: but slime doesn't maintain a matrix of dependant libs right?
23:39	dnolen	Google Closure does
23:39	technomancy	it actually worked out ok for them as long as everything that interacted with slime was in the repo
23:39	dnolen	you can veto commits
23:39	ibdknox	why not just do point releases all the time?
23:40	technomancy	dnolen: slime has the elisp client and swank servers for various CL implementations all in the same repo in lockstep
23:40	ibdknox	is there a way to specify latest in a maven dep?
23:40	dnolen	technomancy: but not Clojure :P grrr
23:40	cemerick	ibdknox: every commit => release to central? Clojure v1.4.833?
23:40	cemerick	That might actually work.
23:40	technomancy	dnolen: yeah, but I'm not sure I would want that even if they changed their mind about not caring about clojure
23:41	dnolen	technomancy: why not?
23:41	technomancy	dnolen: I like stable releases
23:42	technomancy	and I don't want to have to scramble to immediately support a change in swank-clojure just because they decided to make a change on the elisp side
23:42	dnolen	technomancy: I do too. But I think you're pretty good about staying up to date, being in charge of a essential build tool and all.
23:42	danlarkin	working from HEAD or whatever only gets yo so far
23:42	dnolen	most devs aren't
23:42	danlarkin	eventually you need to ship, and get backported bugfixes or whatever
23:42	dnolen	the tension is the psychology of … I won't upgrade till the next big point release.
23:42	danlarkin	and that can't happen with everybody-works-from-HEAD model
23:42	technomancy	dnolen: also most of the changes to slime head recently come with no actual upside
23:43	dnolen	technomancy: but that's really relevant. eventually some commit will come in that you want, and the gap is now a gulf.
23:44	dnolen	not really relevant I mean.
23:44	technomancy	dnolen: true, though that's much more likely to happen in a project that's as young as clojurescript vs something as mature as slime
23:45	cemerick	I remember when there was hesitation about putting out a 1.0 to begin with.
23:45	dnolen	technomancy: "mature" but just cuz you're mature doesn't mean you can predict events like Clojure. It's sad we can't be brought in to the fold.
23:45	cemerick	I think it's hard to argue that things would be as they are today if drops from HEAD were the path taken.
23:46	cark	clojure and cl are very different beasts
23:46	technomancy	it would have to be a pretty badass feature to convince me to use CVS un-ironically
23:47	technomancy	dnolen: I suppose be open to it, I'm just not inclined to spend the effort myself.
23:47	dnolen	technomancy: of course. (wow, I don't think I knew SLIME was still on CVS, WTF)
23:47	cemerick	ibdknox: so that cljs-compiler-jar artifact is something you published?
23:47	ibdknox	cemerick: yeah
23:48	trptcolin	i'm totally OH'ing technomancy
23:48	cemerick	Let us now all say about SLIME: WTF.
23:48	dnolen	cemerick: bridge too far man.
23:48	cemerick	lol
23:48	cemerick	I have to let my emacs hate out of the cage every now and then ;-)
23:48	technomancy	dnolen: pretty sure it's the last thing I actually directly use that's still in CVS
23:48	technomancy	now that I switched off screen to tmux
23:49	technomancy	maybe bash?
23:50	cemerick	Though I was nearly convinced at strangeloop to give it another try sometime soon.
23:50	technomancy	relevant: http://memegenerator.net/instance/7741684
23:50	technomancy	what
23:50	danlarkin	oooooh that's a good one
23:51	cemerick	yeah, that's classic
23:52	cemerick	ibdknox: do you remember what the concrete error/failure was?
23:53	cemerick	(oh please, let the cljs compiler not require a src dir)
23:54	dnolen	cemerick: you still need that stuff. resolving namespaces and all that. worth it IMO.
23:55	chouser	wow, the stars are all out on #clojure on a Friday night.
23:55	clojurebot	this is not IRC, this is #clojure. We aspire to better than that.
23:55	chouser	technomancy: congrats on the new gig
23:55	cemerick	dnolen: not for what I'm doing. But I need to shut up until I actually dig in properly.
23:56	cemerick	chouser: And along comes Polaris! ;-)
23:56	technomancy	chouser: thanks!
23:56	ibdknox	haha
23:56	ibdknox	technomancy: new gig?
23:56	technomancy	ibdknox: starting at Heroku next week
23:57	ibdknox	cemerick: it stopped loading core.cljs, past that I don't remember. I'll try again tomorrow :)
23:57	ibdknox	sweet!
23:57	ibdknox	technomancy: my girlfriend works for salesforce :)
23:57	technomancy	ibdknox: cool. never worked for a >50 company before
23:57	technomancy	sounds like heroku is pretty independent in practice though
23:58	ibdknox	that's my understanding as well
23:58	ibdknox	so hopefully it won't be too bad ;)
23:58	dnolen	technomancy: the future of Clojure deployment … at your fingertips.