#clojure – 2011-09-22

2011-09-22

00:07	devn	Anyone here familiar with bricolage programming?
00:09	symbole	Only what Google shows.
00:09	devn	http://yaxu.org/writing/ppig.pdf
00:10	napping	is there no clojure-contrib 1.2.1?
00:10	devn	napping: correct.
00:10	devn	napping: If you're on 1.2.1, use clojure-contrib 1.2.0
00:11	symbole	devn: Sounds like an interesting concept.
00:11	devn	(That's probably confusing and could be fixed.)
00:11	devn	symbole: I think it relates back to what Rich was talking about in his talk the other night.
00:11	napping	I was working of something that mentioned clojure-core 1.2.0 and clojure-contrib-1.2.0, so I thought maybe they should match
00:11	symbole	devn: I'm not familiar with Rich's talk.
00:11	devn	napping: That seems totally natural.
00:15	devth	Trying to write a macro that `let`s a few symbols for use inside the ~@body, but clojure makes me put a # at the end of the identifier to avoid capture. Can I explicitly capture them?
00:15	napping	Is it just coincidental that both were at 1.2.0 for a while?
00:15	symbole	devth: ~'x would capture x.
00:16	jli	aaa//a
00:16	jli	er, apologies for the line noise
00:17	devth	symbole: thanks
00:20	devn	napping: You can still get clojure 1.2.0. I can understand the confusion.
00:20	devn	One does not expect contrib to be off by a point release.
00:21	devn	Perhaps an alias or something would prevent confusion like this in the future.
00:21	symbole	devn: Is there a recent talk Rich gave? Any recording of it?
00:21	devn	symbole: No recording yet, but you will want to see it. :) It was a really fantastic talk. Sussman gave him a standing ovation.
00:22	symbole	Was this at a local user group?
00:22	devn	No, Stange Loop.
00:22	symbole	Oh, nice. Seems like a really fun conference.
00:23	devn	symbole: Yeah it was a lot of fun.
00:24	devn	It was the precursor to Clojure conj. Lots and lots of Clojure talks. Lots of people from the communit there, etc.
00:24	devn	community*
00:24	symbole	Makes me want to go to Clojure Conj.
00:25	napping	devn: if anything, fixing the README in the git head for seesaw might have helped, and that's not the sort of thing you should worry about just based on me jumping into things - but I should send a patch
00:26	devn	napping: Regardless I feel like if there's no release for contrib that will ever occupy 1.2.1, then someone might as well make it possible to use "1.2.1" to grab "1.2.0", but maybe that's crazy talk-- I'm going to ask the list and see what people think.
00:31	napping	It's pretty clearly listed here http://clojure.org/downloads
00:32	napping	ah, this http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/index.html is for the development verison
00:38	napping	Probably no point, if 1.3 is coming out soon, and contrib is splitting
00:41	tomoj	overtone's "may this be the start" inversion is delightful :)
00:50	quotemstr	So is push-thread-bindings like progv?
00:56	thearthur	im switching a project to clojure 1.3.0-RC0: is this the latest 1.3. what do i put for X.Y.Z in :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.2.1"]]
00:56	thearthur	errr[org.clojure.contrib/shell-out "1.3."]]
00:57	thearthur	sorry cut-and-paste fail. im asking about clojure-contrib shell out as a leiningen dependency
00:58	quotemstr	It'd be nice if Firefox actually scrolled to the appropriate anchor in Clojure documentation pages.
01:00	thearthur	where can i find a list of the various contrib projects, are they on github?
01:06	quotemstr	Is there a way to make reflection warnings fatal
01:06	quotemstr	?
01:06	thearthur	does contrib.shell-out exist in the new contrib?
01:09	thearthur	quotemstr: not that I know of
01:11	thearthur	are all the contrib projects listed at https://github.com/clojure or are they scattered around github?
01:18	adam_	is there a clojure debian package with all the contrib libraries?
01:24	hiredman	adam_: don't use apt packages for clojure http://technomancy.us/151
01:27	quotemstr	(let [sslfactory (.getSocketFactory ctx) sslsock (.createSocket sslfactory "example.com" 443) session (.getSession #^SSLSocket sslsock)] ...)
01:27	quotemstr	Why can the compiler infer the type of ctx for getSocketFactory, and the type of sslfactory for CreateSocket, but not the type of sslsock for getSession?
01:28	quotemstr	(Omitting the #^SSLSocket hint generates a reflection warning.)
01:28	napping	http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/javax/net/ssl/SSLSocketFactory.html
01:28	hiredman	lose the '#'
01:28	hiredman	what version of clojure are you using?
01:28	quotemstr	hiredman: But all the examples I've seen use it.
01:28	adam_	@hiredman, for my research, I don't use packages for that exact reason
01:28	adam_	i have a couple installed
01:28	adam_	1.2.0 with counterclock wise
01:28	adam_	1.0.0 from the deb package
01:28	napping	createSocket just claims to return a plain Socket
01:28	hiredman	quotemstr: look at newer examples
01:29	quotemstr	hiredman: 1.2.1
01:29	adam_	and 1.1.0 alpha
01:29	hiredman	#^ is depricated, just use ^
01:29	quotemstr	hiredman: Thanks. Switched.
01:29	quotemstr	napping: So what's wrong with that?
01:30	quotemstr	Oh.
01:30	quotemstr	Right. Thanks.
01:33	napping	I don't know why it is that way, it should have been legal to say SSLSocket createSocket(Socket s, String host, int port, boolean autoClose)
01:33	quotemstr	napping: Does Java have what C++ calls "covariant return types"?
01:34	hiredman	I believe it does
01:34	hiredman	but it may have been a late addition
01:35	adam_	it does for 5.0 and later
01:35	hiredman	"Covariant return types have been (partially) allowed in the Java language since the release of JDK5.0"
01:35	hiredman	and the ssl stuff predates that
01:35	napping	ah, I guess that's it
01:37	quotemstr	Ah, I see.
01:37	quotemstr	Is it possible to pare down the default clojure.jar so that applets start faster?
01:38	hiredman	is there a supported way? no, but you can certainly try it, fork clojure and rip out bits
01:38	hiredman	are you aot compiling everything?
01:39	hiredman	that can speed up launch time a little
01:39	quotemstr	Does invoking clojure.lang.Compile do AOT compilation?
01:39	hiredman	depends
01:40	quotemstr	I have a simple makefile that runs that, then creates a jar out of all the generated class files.
01:40	hiredman	~aot
01:40	quotemstr	I suppose I can do better.
01:40	clojurebot	AOT genclass is http://paste.lisp.org/display/70665 and http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-18.html#14:19
01:40	hiredman	wow thats old
01:40	hiredman	http://clojure.org/compilation
01:41	quotemstr	Yep, I'm using AOT compilation then.
01:47	thearthur	how do i find version numbers for the new contrib projects? ie: :dependencies [[org.clojure.contrib/shell-out "X.Y.Z"]]
01:47	thearthur	(does shell-out exist in the new contrib stuff?
01:47	hiredman	no
01:48	thearthur	that would explain the trouble finding it
01:48	hiredman	clojure.java.shell
01:48	hiredman	it is in core now
01:49	thearthur	yay :)
02:00	justin`	anyone have experience setting up clojure with mod_proxy? Everything seems to be working, except all my html is escaped
02:01	justin`	(using noir + enlive, the problem might also stem from that combination)
03:13	rqcursq	Have a good day
03:26	_harsh-1	joi #haskell
03:31	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:32	robermann	hi
03:33	Blkt	hi
04:16	patchwork	hey all, quick question: I have a java file with a single class and I want to include it in my lein project. Where do I put it and how do I import it? (I tried putting it in the src directory under the package path but it tells me ClassNotFound)
04:17	patchwork	So the java file has this package declaration:
04:17	patchwork	package com.thebuzzmedia.imgscalr;
04:18	patchwork	and has this class:
04:18	patchwork	public class Scalr {
04:18	patchwork	I put it in ~/src/com/thebuzzmedia/imgscalr/Scalr.java
04:19	patchwork	and tried to import it from the repl thusly:
04:19	patchwork	(import '(com.thebuzzmedia.imgscalr Scalr))
04:19	patchwork	And I get this:
04:19	patchwork	com.thebuzzmedia.imgscalr.Scalr
04:19	patchwork	[Thrown class java.lang.ClassNotFoundException]
04:19	patchwork	what am I missing?
04:21	robermann	I'm not an expert: In my opinion an src lein's project folder should contain only .clj files.
04:21	patchwork	robermann: Aha, so where do I put the .java files?
04:22	robermann	I think you first should compile your class and put it into lib
04:22	robermann	(inside a jar)
04:23	robermann	wait a second
04:23	patchwork	Aha… hmm
04:25	robermann	put your .class inside the "classes" folder
04:25	robermann	(honoring the package declaration)
04:30	patchwork	cool thanks! I am kind of new to java, I just did javac but I notice there is a build.xml in the main folder. Is there a customary java tool that builds with a build.xml?
04:31	patchwork	Also, when I used javac it made a bunch of files like Scalr$1.class and Scalr$Method.class. is this normal?
04:32	patchwork	nevermind, found ant
04:32	patchwork	way better than javac
04:48	robermann	$.class files are generated by javac when you define inner classes in your source Java file
04:51	patchwork	okay, good to know
04:52	patchwork	Hmm, it finds the class, but does not seem to have the resize method, though it is in the source. How do I see what methods a java class has from clojure?
04:52	patchwork	> Scalr
04:52	hsbot	Not in scope: data constructor `Scalr'
04:52	patchwork	com.thebuzzmedia.imgscalr.Scalr
04:53	patchwork	ah, I triggered hsbot
04:53	robermann	does your methods/constructors are public?
04:54	patchwork	Yeah,
04:54	patchwork	public static BufferedImage resize(BufferedImage src, int targetSize,
04:54	patchwork	BufferedImageOp... ops) throws IllegalArgumentException {
04:54	patchwork	return resize(src, Method.AUTOMATIC, Mode.AUTOMATIC, Rotation.NONE,
04:54	patchwork	targetSize, targetSize, ops);
04:54	patchwork	}
04:54	patchwork	So I should be able to say
04:54	patchwork	(Scalr/resize img 180)
04:54	patchwork	but I get a
04:54	patchwork	No matching method: resize
04:54	patchwork	[Thrown class java.lang.IllegalArgumentException]
04:55	patchwork	I got img by doing a
04:55	patchwork	(javax.imageio.ImageIO/read (as-file "/Users/rspangler/Desktop/Spomenik_03.jpg"))
04:56	patchwork	which shows it is an BufferedImage object
04:58	robermann	I think you should pass the third parameter too
05:04	patchwork	that was it, thanks!
05:10	robermann	BTW, if you want to inspect the methods of a class (String, for excample), try: (for [method (seq (.getMethods java.lang.String)) :let [method-name (.getName method)]] method-name)
05:10	patchwork	That is what I was looking for
05:10	patchwork	so .getMethods is the magic
05:10	patchwork	How do I access a java enum from clojure?
05:11	patchwork	this scalr class has options that are enums
05:11	patchwork	Scalr/Method fails
05:11	patchwork	public static enum Method {
05:11	patchwork	inside the class def
05:12	patchwork	Once I have a reference to the enum I can say (Method/valueOf :QUALITY)
05:12	patchwork	or something
05:12	patchwork	but I can't get at the enum, even though it is public and static
05:19	patchwork	Found it
05:19	patchwork	Scalr$Method/QUALITY
05:19	patchwork	odd syntax
05:20	robermann	yes (javax.tools.JavaFileObject$Kind/HTML)
05:20	robermann	not so intuitive :D
05:25	patchwork	definitely expanding my java interop skills tonight
05:34	patchwork	Hmm… how do I call a java function that has … ?
05:35	patchwork	The last argument is
05:35	patchwork	I was trying to be clojure flexible with BufferedImageOps…
05:35	patchwork	(with ellipses)
05:35	patchwork	If I pass in an argument I get the "No matching method found: resize" exception
05:35	ivan__	patchwork: isnt ... just an Object[] ... so i guess you could pass in a Object[] ?
05:36	ivan__	(disclaimer, im not a clojure user :))
05:36	patchwork	Ah, so how do I create an Object[] in clojure?
05:36	patchwork	funny, I am used to just clojure and all of this java stuff is throwing me off
05:37	ivan__	patchwork: http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java%20Interop-Arrays ?
05:38	raek	patchwork: (into-array collection)
05:38	raek	or maybe object-array is better here
05:39	ivan__	patchwork: https://github.com/nickmbailey/java.jmx/commit/2a1e991c49718dc34c584fcebb989338ec8a13bc
05:39	ivan__	i think this is being called heh
05:39	patchwork	That works!
05:40	patchwork	thanks all
05:40	patchwork	so I need to use java arrays for interop, makes sense now
05:40	patchwork	for some reason I thought clojure collections would just be translated into java arrays
05:40	ivan__	patchwork: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5638541/problems-calling-a-variadic-java-function-from-clojure
05:40	ivan__	ah cool
05:40	raek	the java interop is perhaps more accurately described as JVM interop...
05:41	raek	it doesn't have much syntactic sugar for Java inventions (eg. nested classes, varargs)
05:41	ivan__	you just have to match it to how its represented in bytecode/on jvm
05:42	ivan__	in scala object a{def blah} gets mapped to equivlent of class a{public static void blah} in java
06:17	shtutgart	any advice on articles about building gui with clojurescript? (except "Most Basic ClojureScript GUI")
06:28	shtutgart	is it (clojurescript) even ready for use in production? maybe i should pick some java framework like vaadin?
06:35	bsteuber	shtutgart: I'd recommend reading "Closure: The definite guide"
06:36	bsteuber	of course it's for js, so you have to translate the OO-patterns to functional stuff for yourself
06:37	bsteuber	but it explains the API well
06:38	shtutgart	bsteuber: ok, thanks
06:52	kjeldahl	As much as I hate it, I need to make some jetty stuff (using the noir framework) run under Windows. After I quit the server (from a "lein.bat run"), the java process keeps running. Any simple workarounds (other than manually killing every time; cygwin kill doesn't seem to do the job properly)?
06:54	kjeldahl	FWIW, built-in kill in cygwin bash does not work, but /bin/kill -f PID does.
08:57	Blkt	how do I get a seq or a list from a Double[]?
08:58	kzar	Any ideas what I'm doing wrong here? http://paste.lisp.org/display/124777 I'm somehow messing up a really really simple XOM query
08:59	fdaoud	Blkt: (seq dblarray)
08:59	kzar	Blkt: (seq (double-array [1 2 3 4 5]))
09:00	Blkt	thanks
09:00	Blkt	thanks a lot guys
09:00	fdaoud	welcome
09:33	Blkt	how do I return multiple values?
09:34	Fossi	in a vector
09:34	Fossi	for example
09:35	Blkt	isn't there a "values" construct?
09:36	joegallo	yes, it's called vector :)
09:37	Blkt	doesen't sound like Common Lisp's values, but that'll do the trick
09:40	joegallo	i'm not very familiar with values, but a very very quick read makes me think that you'll like this
09:40	joegallo	if i have a (point) function that returns a vector of an x and y coordinate, which is very idiomatic, then i could use it like this:
09:40	joegallo	(let [p (point)] (print (first p) (second p)) ;; but that's pretty lame
09:41	joegallo	however, i can combine that with clojure's destructuring, and get something much nicer:
09:41	joegallo	(let [[x y] (point)] (print x y))
09:41	joegallo	so, as long as you're in a let context, it feels more like the vector is multiple value return, and less like a vector
09:50	jli	Blkt: clojure uses jvm calling convenions, so no multiple value return
09:50	jli	people just use one of the nice general data structures :)
10:07	Blkt	jli: I supposed id, thanks for the explenation
10:23	kzar	I'm parsing a big XML file with XOM, I want to check the xmlns beforehand though any ideas? (I thought of reading the first 5 lines and finding it myself but it seems like the wrong approach.)
10:26	kzar	(I have to set up a context object with the xmlns so that I can query for things later. I want to set it dynamically so it always works.)
10:34	lnostdal	where's clojure.contrib.math gone in 1.3? i'm looking for round .. (java's Math/round isn't as good; it doesn't accept ints)
10:36	lnostdal	ok, no one knows .. i'll copy paste from the old clojure-contrib github then .....
10:36	clojurebot	() invokes the form inside, but there is an implied str call. The semantics are different inside the interpolated string, necessarily so.
10:40	lnostdal	and add a java.lang.Long method for it... sigh ..
11:01	TimMc	lnostdal: It's probably in core somewhere.
11:14	chrido	hi, i'm in general new to the whole java ecosystem. my application will do the whole day processing some messages and serving a status html page.
11:14	chrido	how would you deploy such an application on a windows box?
11:15	chrido	wrap it as a windows service? put it into tomcat?
11:15	joegallo	is it already running in an application server or servlet container like jboss, tomcat, jetty or the like?
11:15	joegallo	or is it a standalone java/clojure application?
11:16	chrido	no, i'm just beginning with the application, greenfield
11:18	joegallo	okay, here's my $.02. since you are talking about serving up an html status page, you're probably going to be deploying something that ends up either running inside tomcat as a war file, in which case you should look at installing tomcat as a windows service (their windows installer handles this for you, iirc)
11:18	joegallo	OR, you'll embed jetty into your application, such that when you start your application as a normal java app, you'll also be starting jetty, and your app will use jetty to serve the html
11:18	joegallo	in which case you'll want to look at the java service wrappers for windows that exist
11:19	chrido	does tomcat start the application after deployment automatically?
11:19	joegallo	google and here are some thing for that list of service wrappers: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/68113/how-to-create-a-windows-service-from-java-app
11:19	chrido	ah, thanks!
11:20	joegallo	if you deploy your application as a war file, and you have that war file in the right tomcat directory, then, yes, tomcat will automatically load up your application upon start. and you'll be ready to start serving html.
11:21	joegallo	in order to kick off some non-html-serving aspect of your application, though, you'll need to hook into something like the ServletContextListener, which is a hook that tomcat can call into your code to let you know that "hey, your app just started", and from there you could kick off a thread that will do the message processing or whatever.
11:22	joegallo	based on nothing, i would argue that the embed jetty approach will make you happier, if what you're looking to do is write clojure code
11:22	joegallo	but that's based on nothing
11:22	joegallo	(besides my own prejudice, i suppose)
11:23	chrido	joegallo: ok, thanks a lot, just found a jetty windows service wrapper, seems to be also usable by our administrator, i think i will go with jetty
11:24	joegallo	okay, best of luck, have fun
11:31	cemerick	We're raised almost half of what we need to get Ambrose to the Conj. If you can, please donate — or share the post's link so that others can hear about the 'scholarship' fundraiser: http://wp.me/p10OJi-aX
11:32	cemerick	Of course, thanks to everyone that's already donated; every cent is greatly appreciated. :-D
11:32	joegallo	cemerick: what are we looking at for top donations? i mean, if i'm going to donate, i want to win the autographed books. :)
11:33	cemerick	joegallo: I guess I don't really want to say precisely, as I'd be giving away what the eventual top donors had pitched in (which I guess they might not appreciate).
11:33	joegallo	blast
11:33	cemerick	> $100, certainly
11:33	joegallo	but good point
11:33	hsbot	<hint>:1:1: parse error on input `$'
11:34	joegallo	i guess the only way to be sure is to give $3000 - current account balance
11:34	joegallo	:)
11:34	cemerick	hah
11:35	fdaoud	cemerick: that's a nice incentive. just curious: what happens to the donated amount if it's not enough?
11:35	cemerick	fdaoud: I don't plan on falling short. :-)
11:35	fdaoud	cemerick: of course not.! but what if?
11:35	cemerick	People will end up donating, just to get me to shut up.
11:36	cemerick	fdaoud: I've never contemplated the possibility, honestly.
11:36	joegallo	it won't happen
11:37	joegallo	i mean, he'll harass everyone until he gets there.
11:37	cemerick	Exactly right.
11:37	fdaoud	*<8-)
11:37	fdaoud	I like your incentive. I'd do anything for a free computer book ;)
11:38	cemerick	Seemed like an easy, reasonable, fun extra.
11:38	michaelr525	>
11:38	michaelr525	err
11:38	michaelr525	so what
11:38	michaelr525	what
11:38	michaelr525	where is rich hickeys slides from strange loop?
11:40	cemerick	michaelr525: not up yet; will be here when they are: https://github.com/strangeloop/2011-slides
11:41	michaelr525	yeah, i'm polling on this page all day :)
11:42	michaelr525	really great stuff in there
11:42	michaelr525	wish I could be there too to hear all that
11:42	khaliG	yes paredit, but is there is a clever way to avoid having to hit shift+9 and shift+0 all the time?
11:43	cemerick	Thanks all; now we are actually halfway to the fundraising goal. Go #clojure :-)
11:43	michaelr525	how many people donated so far?
11:44	cemerick	~35 or so?
11:44	clojurebot	excusez-moi
11:44	michaelr525	oh
11:44	michaelr525	,(div 1500 35)
11:44	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: div in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:45	cemerick	~$42 / person
11:45	clojurebot	Huh?
11:45	michaelr525	yes, very generous people
11:45	michaelr525	imho
11:46	cemerick	Well, that's just a mean. :-)
11:46	cemerick	Gotta run for a while. Keep spreading the world, everyone. Thanks again :-D
11:53	dnolen	please retweet if you have a free moment, https://twitter.com/swannodette/status/116899593119219712
11:59	Blkt	good evening everyone
12:07	dnolen	wow Shen released, http://www.lambdassociates.org/Download/download.htm
12:08	dnolen	oops spoke too soon 12AM GMT tomorrow
12:09	technomancy	didn't see that coming
12:12	khaliG	dnolen, sweet
12:37	chewbranca	anyone have any recommendations for a database migration library? been checking out lobos and drift, curious to see if anyone has any thoughts
12:58	devn	technomancy: I'm asking this question without having done much homework, but I figured asking you might save me some time. I'm playing around with using ruby from clojure and what I'm doing is grabbing the gem source and placing it in src/foogem. The issue is that src/foogem/lib needs to be renamed to something else otherwise it will be blow away.
12:59	devn	technomancy: I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to stop that from happening. According to Yoko Harada this didn't happen to her locally but happened on deploy to Heroku. Do you suspect Heroku, or could it be lein?
13:06	technomancy	devn: nothing comes to mind off the top of my head. only lib/ in the top-level of the project should be affected
13:21	michael_campbell	Anyone here going to clojure/conv?
13:21	dnolen	michael_campbell: lots.
13:21	michael_campbell	I registered yesterday, so will be there also,although I feel I'm woefully under-brained for it still =)
13:26	zerokarmaleft	michael_campbell: kind of in the same boat...we can get some jackets made
13:27	michael_campbell	zerokarmaleft: chuckle indeed. I'll be identifiable as the drooling idiot in the back ;-)
13:28	michael_campbell	Not that that is out of the ordinary for me most of the time as it is...
13:28	manutter	I've been drooling since the schedule was posted...
13:46	justin`	Anyone know why my ouput might be coming out completey escaped when using enlive+noir?
13:52	icey	justin`: I think enlive escapes everything by default
13:57	jli	lnostdal: did you see this page? http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
14:02	elderling	jli: Link appreciated.
14:05	justin`	icey: any idea how to unescape it? I'm basiclly just trying to define a single html page as a teplate in enlive and as a page in noir, and I'm getting fully escaped html
14:06	justin`	when using the code from the new tutorial now on the enlive github, the same thing happens, oddly, but when spitting out hiccup code, everything's fine
14:07	lnostdal	jli, it leads to some log site
14:07	lnostdal	"latest build status"
14:08	lnostdal	but googling https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower
14:10	icey	justin`: yeah, i think it's enlive that's doing the escaping, not noir. I think there is something you can call in enlive to mark the string as already escaped. give me a second, i'll see if I can find it
14:11	justin`	yeah I've been looking around in the source but can't seem to find anything, but maybe I'm just looking for the wrong thing
14:12	icey	justin`: I think you're looking for html/escaped
14:12	icey	justin`: http://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg08293.html
14:14	justin`	k thanks I'll check that out! I think that function was removed from the current version
14:14	icey	justin`: oh shoot, that's not going to be helpful then lol
14:15	icey	justin`: have you tried using emit* ?
14:16	icey	(I'm not really an enlive user, so I'm not sure if this is something that you would have already tried)
14:16	bsod1	clojure(and I think most lisps) doesn't have statements, right? everything is either expression(has a return value) or special form(like if, fn)
14:18	amalloy	bsod1: first half true, second half...sorta true
14:18	amalloy	everything is an expression, full stop. some things are also special forms
14:18	justin`	icey: yeah I'm guessing I should just use it on the result of the template? When I do it just double escapes eveything, so it looks like that's causing the problem, gotta run out for now but thanks again
14:18	amalloy	&(let [x (+ 1 (if true 2 1000))] x) ;; used special form in "expression context"
14:19	bsod1	thanks. one more question, what are differences between a real tail-call and clojure's recur?
14:19	icey	justin`: when you come back it might be useful for you to post up some code
14:19	amalloy	,(let [x (+ 1 (if true 2 1000))] x)
14:19	clojurebot	3
14:19	amalloy	recur can only do self-recursion. tall calls can call other functions
14:24	bsod1	what is a good way to create a new vector from an old vector but without it's first and last elements?
14:26	kharrington	,(doc subvec)
14:26	clojurebot	"([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
14:52	bsod1	amalloy
14:52	amalloy	ponder what was that about?
14:53	thorstadt	hit and run
14:54	manutter	never define colon as a hotkey for "Quit"
15:00	fdaoud	do bcarper or cgrand ever hang out here?
15:02	amalloy	fdaoud: if they do those aren't their irc nicks
15:02	hiredman	2010:Feb:15:05:45:33 cgrand : chouser: what was your latest use case?
15:04	fdaoud	amalloy: yeah I figured, however I figured people here would know what they use instead :)
15:04	fdaoud	they don't use anything special on github
15:06	fdaoud	hiredman: ok so cgrand hasn't been here a year and a half.. :/
15:21	symbole	Wizywig: Ping.
15:21	JochenR	is there anyone like me who is missing a function mmap that is like map but takes a map and produces a map processing just the values?
15:21	Wizywig	symbole: pong
15:24	symbole	JochenR: I think it just mind be you :)
15:25	symbole	might be*
15:26	JochenR	hmm, is there such a function in core? I have of course written it myself
15:26	JochenR	topically I see (into {} (map …)) but I find this to be just noise
15:26	r0man	is there a recommended version of swank-clojure to use with clojure 1.3-RC0? i keep getting "No matching field found: getRoot for class clojure.lang.Var" errors when running my tests via emacs. lein test runs fine on the command line. any hints?
15:27	hiredman	r0man: the latest version will work fine
15:27	hiredman	latest release or any snapshot
15:27	symbole	JochenR: You can always use (vals ..) to get all the values. Seems pretty easy to make, but I don't know if one is already in the core.
15:28	r0man	hiredman: hmm, that's what i tried :(
15:29	hiredman	JochenR: is it really a map then? not a list of tuples?
15:29	hiredman	maps as datastructures are generally not for linear traversal
15:30	dnolen	JochenR: another alternative is to use reduce.
15:30	JochenR	just see a vector as a map with the keys being indexes
15:31	JochenR	mmap is a function that treats maps in the same way as map treats vectors
15:31	hiredman	people have a tendency to use {:id1 :value1 :id2 :value2} instead of [{:id :id1 :value :value1} {:id :id2 :value :value2}]
15:31	dnolen	JochenR: map doesn't treat vectors, it works w/ sequences
15:31	dnolen	and you get a lazy sequence as a result, not a vector
15:31	JochenR	yeah, sure, but still you rely n the same ordering when you have a
15:31	JochenR
15:31	hiredman	but the second is better for a lot of cases and infact maps more closer to something like a sql table
15:32	JochenR	vector
15:32	hiredman	the first is more like a k/v store
15:32	JochenR	(mmap inc {:a 1 :b 2}) -> {:a 2 :b 3}
15:32	hiredman	we understand what it does
15:33	hiredman	and why people ask about
15:33	JochenR	oh, I am not the first? ;*)
15:33	hiredman	just saying you may reconsider your choice of data representation
15:34	JochenR	i see but, hmm, I do not really agree
15:34	ipostelnik	hiredman, every clojure shop seems to maintain a set of map fn variants to work with maps
15:35	hiredman	ipostelnik: really? how many clojure shops have you surveyed?
15:35	ipostelnik	2 :)
15:35	hiredman	(no one asked me)
15:36	hiredman	ipostelnik: I would say the same to them, if you want to linearly traverse a map, you may be using the wrong structure
15:36	JochenR	not linearly, just make sure all values get processed (pmap is fine). Order plays no role here
15:36	ipostelnik	small maps as tagged data representation are very common
15:36	hiredman	the second representation is far more flexable and can be made lazy while the map cannot
15:37	JochenR	hiredman: good point, maybe this is why it is missing from core. It is not "simple"
15:38	hiredman	ipostelnik: I am not taking a poll, I don't care what is common
15:38	hiredman	as I said "people have a tendency to ..." I think that tendency is very short sighted
15:38	amalloy	yes, while it's tempting to map a function over a map's values, dumping it back into a map at the end is expensive
15:38	hiredman	correct
15:39	amalloy	better to work lazily with a bunch of k/v pairs for as long as possible, and dump it into a map at the end if you really need to (often it turns out you don't)
15:39	arohner	JochenR: I call that fn map-values
15:39	amalloy	eg, clojure-useful contains map-vals, which has exactly the function you're asking about, but i never use it
15:39	JochenR	hmm, this smells a bit like implementation detail to me.
15:39	arohner	JochenR: I also have map-keys
15:40	amalloy	JochenR: it is not an implementation detail
15:40	amalloy	maps are not lazy, and cannot be while preserving the guarantees they make about fast key lookup
15:40	hiredman	working with sql, hadoop, riak map/reduce, etc the second case is all you see
15:41	hiredman	actually that is not entirely fair, you'd need a transform between mapping and reducing depending
15:42	JochenR	as I see it clojure has chosen sequence as its main abstraction, other languages do different and there the set of functions over collections is a bit different, with different performance characteristics
15:43	JochenR	but in clojure you might be right, you have to think in sequences, not collections here
15:43	arohner	JochenR: clojure hasn't chosen seqs as its main abstraction. All of the seq and coll functions in clojure have complexity guarantees
15:44	JochenR	well, map filer etc. al produce just sees from any squabble input
15:45	amalloy	JochenR: in a mutable language, you can modify a map's values in-place cheaply. you can't really do that when the maps are immutable, i think
15:45	arohner	but you explicitly can't do contains? on a seq, and some has a big warning that it's O(n)
15:47	hiredman	you can do it with maps, sure, and plenty of people have, but you can choose to do better
15:48	hiredman	(heck I have)
15:49	JochenR	in smalltalk e.g collection is the base abstraction. aMap.collect fn yields a map, aVector.collect fn yields an ordered collection etc. You get something from the same "species" (roughly like equality paritions in clojure) In clojure you end up with a seq. aMap.collect is mmap. No mutation,new items are returned.
15:49	hiredman	(done it with maps, and argued with coworkers that the second way is better and just given up and let them do stuff)
15:49	hiredman	JochenR: this is not smalltalk
15:50	amalloy	JochenR: i don't think it can both (a) do it in O(n) time without mutation, and (b) provide constant-time lookup after creating the new one
15:50	amalloy	if it can i would be interested to hear how
15:50	hiredman	even though smalltalk makes that method available, I would still argue that if you find yourself using it, you may want to pause and think about it
15:50	TimMc	I like "seqable" -> "squabble".
15:50	hiredman	"is this the correct representation of my data?"
15:52	JochenR	Don't get so defensive :-). I am not saying that one should always use mmap, but in case you need a map over the values of a map (map is somehow bound twice here) it would be a useful function. I nfor sure need it sometimes..
15:52	hiredman	defensive?
15:53	ipostelnik	you don't always get to choose the representation - for instance ring gives you parameters as a map not a sequence
15:53	hiredman	useful, but often a poor choice, similar to calling contains? on a seq. clojure tends to push away from bad choices
15:53	amalloy	ipostelnik: and if you find yourself wanting to use map-vals on a ring map, let me know
15:53	JochenR	feel a bit like that because i hear performance all the time, but i just want to have readable code. I optimize just when it gets slow. With my small maps I do normally not care.
15:53	hiredman	ipostelnik: which is fine, do you really often map over all of the different kinds of fields there?
15:54	ipostelnik	hiredman, not often, but in my last project I needed to convert the keys to int
15:54	eug_	hi all. suppose i have a java object in repl. is there a way to get a list of its methods?
15:54	ipostelnik	it was super convenient to use a mmap on it and very easy to read the resulting code
15:54	bhenry	,(doc show)
15:54	hiredman	ipostelnik: all of them?
15:54	clojurebot	No entiendo
15:54	amalloy	eug_: clojure.repl/show
15:54	eug_	cool
15:54	ipostelnik	all the query parameters
15:54	JochenR	yep
15:55	eug_	that's awesome!
15:55	hiredman	ipostelnik: so now the more query parameters I pass in the, the longer your app will take running that loop
15:55	ipostelnik	hiredman, sure
15:56	hiredman	ipostelnik: I am not saying down with maps, my example had more maps!
15:57	eug_	does anyone bind () to other keys? they're so faaar away from home row
15:57	bhenry	ipostelnik: he never said it's never a good idea. he said if you find yourself using it you might want to reconsider. in that case, it makes sense to mmap, because you probably only have a handful of params. but in another instance, you might be considering, "hey, i don't want to do it this way"
15:57	amalloy	eug_: i bind then to 9 and 0 - not having to use shift is good enough for me
15:57	JochenR	I just today had a map with some keys and strings, all of the strings to be resolved into data structures under same keys. mmap was very handy.
15:57	hiredman	I tried lowercase parens once, too much of a pain, turns out I type a lot of numbers
15:57	amalloy	(in fact i swap all the numbers with symbols, which on the whole has been a net gain i think)
15:58	amalloy	hiredman: i know! more than i thought i did too
15:58	eug_	mind blowing idea
15:59	amalloy	but as it turns out i'm more fond of shouting! (and parenthetical asides)
15:59	ipostelnik	bhenry, I'm not arguing that maps are always the right data representation - my original point was that I've seen a lot of mmap implementations
15:59	TimMc	eug_: Also, you only really need the left paren.
15:59	dnolen	JochenR: if you're constantly mapping over maps just to put them back into maps, I think you might have a representation problem. otherwise the occasional (into {}) doesn't really affect readability at all.
15:59	amalloy	TimMc: only true in emacs
15:59	TimMc	amalloy: Anywhere where paredit functionality is available.
15:59	amalloy	i guess i'm a sinner for not using erc, but it's handy to have ) available in irc
15:59	TimMc	hmm
16:00	TimMc	You really shouldn't type unbalanced parens anywhere. :-P
16:00	TimMc	or should I say
16:00	TimMc	:-)
16:00	bhenry	TimMc: ) is handy to jump to the end of a form even when you have paredit.
16:00	eug_	TimMc: hm; but even in emacs/slime i don't get the autoclose
16:00	amalloy	bhenry: i use ]
16:00	amalloy	i think
16:01	bhenry	amalloy: touche
16:01	TimMc	< and > are pretty rare
16:01	TimMc	swap 'em with ( and ) maybe
16:01	eug_	that's very convenient
16:01	eug_	ah
16:01	JochenR	dnolen: haha, well, not constantly;-)
16:01	eug_	but not in cascalog
16:01	amalloy	TimMc: what, because <> are easier to reach? not at all
16:01	eug_	amalloy: much easier!
16:01	TimMc	foot pedal, that's the only solution.
16:01	eug_	i actually do have a usb pedal
16:01	TimMc	C, M, (, and )
16:02	eug_	http://www.gizmag.com/thanko-usb-foot-switch-computer-pedal/18737/picture/134895/
16:02	dnolen	JochenR: then it's just a minor convenience. Including mmap would mean including vmap, smap, lmap, etc.
16:02	TimMc	I might make one out of a cannibalized USB keyboard.
16:02	amalloy	i still only use it like 10% of the time, though - never really got used to using it
16:03	amalloy	C, M, and S, in fact; that helps counter the problem of swapping numbers/symbols
16:04	JochenR	dnolen: no, maps are different, as their keys are not transparently handled by map (only here you get k v pairs) as with vectors sets etc.
16:04	JochenR	it depends on how you see it.
16:06	amalloy	maps are only different because you want to treat them differently. sets and vectors are just as different, to someone with slightly different goals than whatever your current goal is
16:07	JochenR	No. See it from the side of the function you pass in. In map over maps you have to handle key value pairs, in all the other cases, just values.
16:07	JochenR	(map inc {:a 1 :b 2}) -> {:a 2 :b 3}
16:07	JochenR	(map inc [1 2]) -> (2 3)
16:08	JochenR	(sorry, first should be mmap)
16:08	amalloy	JochenR: yes, i'm aware of the distinction you're asserting. but someone just like you would be equally reasonable asking for (map inc #{1 2 3}) to return a set
16:08	dnolen	JochenR: if you want map-map, then you want set-map
16:08	dnolen	JochenR: sets are key oriented.
16:09	JochenR	(map inc #{1 2} -> #{3 2}) (e.g.). See it from the fn side
16:09	amalloy	but seriously, if you want mmap so badly, then write it once and put it in a utilities library, or use one of the many existing libraries that have it already
16:10	JochenR	this is I think why I sometimes missed mmap and wrote it.
16:10	amalloy	&(map inc #{1 2})
16:10	lazybot	⇒ (2 3)
16:10	bhenry	JochenR: (map inc #{1 2}) does not return a set
16:10	JochenR	lazybot: of course you are right
16:10	dnolen	,(set? (map inc #{1 2}))
16:10	clojurebot	false
16:10	JochenR	but doesn't change the point I wanted to make
16:10	amalloy	lazybot: does mapping inc over a set return a set??
16:10	lazybot	amalloy: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
16:11	TimMc	I think that point has been made...
16:11	JochenR	TimM: yep, fortunately also way before :-)
16:12	TimMc	JochenR: What's a practical example where you've felt the need for mmap, anyway?
16:12	TimMc	I'm having a hard time remembering where I've needed to do the same thing to all the values of a map, ignoring their keys.
16:13	amalloy	TimMc: converting web-request params from strings to ints is really the most common case i've seen
16:13	TimMc	Ah, I see.
16:13	amalloy	personally, i don't like to do it in middleware, but if you wanted to you'd have to keep it as a map
16:14	JochenR	Today, resolving names into data structures.
16:14	amalloy	for example, instead i use https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure/blob/develop/src/foreclojure/graphs.clj#L55 at the least-abstract level possible, so that i don't have to turn it back into a map
16:15	JochenR	another one was convering [x y w h} rectangles into awt rectangles
16:15	amalloy	(using with-adjustments from https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/utils.clj#L89 )
16:16	dnolen	JochenR: I just ran a recursive grep on probably 10000-20000 lines of Clojure code, various libraries my own code. into {} appears 12 times
16:16	TimMc	So, type conversions, of sorts.
16:17	JochenR	not always, I have just found one where I dissoc'ed one key from all values (also maps)
16:17	JochenR	maybe it is because I am doing o web development
16:19	dnolen	JochenR: this includes my own web stuff, I don't recall using into {} that much there either
16:21	JochenR	well, I also think I have at 100 times more map than mmap, but if I need to process just map values with map I miss it as I have to write into {} and adapt the fn arg as well..
16:22	dnolen	JochenR: so create a utility lib, upload to clojars and require in your projects, done :)
16:22	JochenR	(mmap inc {:a 1 :b 2}) <=> (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (inc v)]) {:a 1 :b 2})
16:23	bhenry	in emacs/slime/swank how do i recall an error? i pressed q too soon and the process runs long. i am hoping to just view the error on the buffer i just quit.
16:23	JochenR	dnolen: smalles lib in clojars ;-)
16:23	arohner	bhenry: I don't know about that, but the last exception might be in *e in the repl
16:24	dnolen	JochenR: don't forget zipmap, (zipmap (keys m) (map inc (vals m)))
16:24	bhenry	arohner: haha crap! i typed e* on accident so now *e is unable to resolve symbol. d'oh!
16:25	amalloy	JochenR: put more in there than just mmap. put all the functions you want more than once. i have a whole blog post at http://amalloy.hubpages.com/hub/Build-your-own-Clojure-toolkit about how you should have your own personal library on clojars
16:25	JochenR	dnolen: sure, but still….
16:25	amalloy	JochenR: also, use for instead of map in that example
16:25	amalloy	(into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (inc v)]))
16:25	JochenR	(zip map is a bit easier to read, though)
16:26	JochenR	why for?
16:26	amalloy	(map (fn [x] (inc x)) foo)
16:26	amalloy	(for [x foo] (inc x))
16:27	dnolen	JochenR: easier to read, once you get used to it.
16:27	amalloy	and way more flexible
16:27	JochenR	well, here I disagree completely. It is matter of taste I would say.
16:28	amalloy	(for [xs foo, x xs] (+ 2 x))
16:28	amalloy	(mapcat (fn [xs] (map (fn [x] (+ 2 x)) xs)) foo)
16:28	TimMc	Why (fn [x] (inc x)) instead of inc?
16:28	amalloy	TimMc: yes, for actual literals like inc, map is nicer; that's why i changed my second example to add two :P
16:28	dnolen	JochenR: familiarity as well.
16:28	TimMc	k
16:29	JochenR	dnolen: depends from where you come :-)
16:29	amalloy	JochenR: map is fine for what it's good at
16:29	dnolen	JochenR: in general in Lisp readability is about structure. Does the structure of your code reflect the operation.
16:30	JochenR	amalloy: yes, I agree
16:30	dnolen	JochenR: I find zipmap more reflective structurally of the operation being done.
16:30	amalloy	and `for` is more flexible for all but the simplest of mapping operations
16:30	JochenR	amalloy: yes, but I need just simple
16:30	JochenR	(here)
16:30	amalloy	no you don't, i just saw you write (map (fn [[k v]] ...))
16:31	amalloy	as soon as you have to declare a function literal inline, you're just using map to write a longer version of for
16:31	JochenR	and what was the alternative?
16:32	amalloy	(map (fn [[k v]] foo) bar)
16:32	amalloy	(for [[k v] bar] foo)
16:34	JochenR	I just see fn missing and the order is reversed. I like the map order better (mmap foo bar)
16:35	JochenR	but I think this is in a loop now.
16:36	JochenR	Thanks for the nice discussion!
16:37	kharrington	,(let [m (zipmap (range 1000) (range 1000))
16:37	kharrington	mr (time (doall (map (fn [[k v]] v) m)))
16:37	kharrington	fr (time (doall (for [[k v] m] v)))])
16:37	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:37	kharrington	,(let [m (zipmap (range 1000) (range 1000)) mr (time (doall (map (fn [[k v\
16:37	kharrington	]] v) m))) fr (time (doall (for [[k v] m] v)))])
16:37	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading character>
16:37	kharrington	arg
16:38	kharrington	(let [m (zipmap (range 1000) (range 1000)) mr (time (doall (map (fn [[k v]] v) m))) fr (time (doall (for [[k v] m] v)))])
16:38	kharrington	,(let [m (zipmap (range 1000) (range 1000)) mr (time (doall (map (fn [[k v]] v) m))) fr (time (doall (for [[k v] m] v)))])
16:38	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 3.8 msecs"
16:38	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 6.137 msecs"
16:38	kharrington	there... copy paste fail...
16:39	dnolen	JochenR: the takeaway is that lots of people want little small additions to the language (including myself) that don't add much expressive power. and these requests are not infrequent.
16:39	bhenry	kharrington: if you're map is that big you're almost definitely using the wrong data structure.
16:40	JochenR	dnolen: sure true
16:40	TimMc	Why?
16:40	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
16:40	TimMc	~antibotsnack
16:40	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:41	amalloy	~botsmack
16:41	clojurebot	Owww!
16:41	TimMc	ha
16:41	kharrington	bhenry: the ratio of performance is just as bad for a map of 20 entries
16:41	bhenry	ah
16:41	TimMc	,(let [m (zipmap (range 100000) (range 100000)) mr (time (doall (map (fn [[k v]] v) m))) fr (time (doall (for [[k v] m] v)))])
16:42	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 188.032 msecs"
16:42	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 207.119 msecs"
16:42	kharrington	,(let [m (zipmap (range 20) (range 20)) mr (time (doall (map (fn [[k v]] v\
16:42	kharrington	) m))) fr (time (doall (for [[k v] m] v)))])
16:42	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading character>
16:42	kharrington	,(let [m (zipmap (range 20) (range 20)) mr (time (doall (map (fn [[k v]] v) m))) fr (time (doall (for [[k v] m] v)))])
16:42	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.417 msecs"
16:42	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1.397 msecs"
16:42	TimMc	kharrington: You need larger numbers to test performance.
16:42	TimMc	Also, /query clojurebot
16:42	amalloy	TimMc: i think he's publicizing it on purpose though, so everyone can see the difference
16:42	TimMc	I usually PM clojurebot until I have the syntax correct.
16:43	kharrington	TimMc: well, then you get into bhenry's argument
16:43	kharrington	i use a REPL on my own machine to test syntax, it was just a horrible serious of copy/paste fails
16:43	kharrington	series... see... typing fail
16:44	bhenry	kharrington: i believed you before you did the second example
16:44	kharrington	bhenry: well, its kind of interesting that it balances out as you increase in the size of the map
16:45	TimMc	kharrington: I've been doing runs of 100000 on clojurebot and the time is pretty variable.
16:45	TimMc	I should be using a separate JVM from the rest of you. :-P
16:46	Raynes	The code is sandboxed/molested in either bot.
16:46	technomancy	clojurebot: are you a benchmarking platform?
16:46	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:46	technomancy	hmm... he used to have a factoid to that effect
16:47	amalloy	lazybot: is clojurebot a benchmarking platform??
16:47	lazybot	amalloy: Definitely not.
16:47	Raynes	lazybot doesn't know he is sandboxed. I have a perception filter in place to make him feel free, but he isn't free.
16:47	amalloy	technomancy: see, this way is just easier
16:48	technomancy	true. clojurebot is a lot of things, but consistent is not one of them.
16:51	TimMc	Same with my home server, apparently.
16:52	TimMc	Anyway, if we don't care about giant maps, why do we care about performance?
16:53	TimMc	Repeated operations over many small maps?
16:55	TimMc	kharrington: I think the second method always runs slower because of GC or something.
16:55	TimMc	Reverse your tests and weep.
16:56	kharrington	,(let [m (zipmap (range 20) (range 20)) fr (time (doall (for [[k v] m] v))) mr (time (doall (map (fn [[k v]] v) m)))])
16:56	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1.362 msecs"
16:56	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.453 msecs"
17:12	TimMc	kharrington: You need way bigger numbers for benchmarking.
17:12	TimMc	20 isn't going to cut through the jitter.
17:18	kharrington	TimMc: I do buy that there is a point at which they seem to more or less equal out (>>10k entries in the map), but up until that point the map call is pretty consistently faster (even with the hash-map def-ed, and with the order of the map/for swapped)
17:18	Netpilgrim	Is there a specific reason behind the parameter order of (nth coll index)? All other functions that take some number and a collection seem to have the order reversed.
17:19	amalloy	Netpilgrim: the best explanation i've come up with is to match other lisps; i think everyone gets confused by nth with the current ordering, so it "can't" be on purpose
17:19	TimMc	kharrington: Right, so if you want to test 20-item maps, you need to repeat that maybe 10000 times and average the times.
17:20	Netpilgrim	amalloy: Too bad, I had hoped for some clever design idea – something to do with function composition perhaps.
17:22	Netpilgrim	amalloy: The order might also be chosen to mirror ([…] index).
17:22	TimMc	Netpilgrim: With some functions it is hard to say which arguments people will most likely want to partially apply.
17:24	kharrington	TimMc: touche, when wrapped in a dotimes, for does seem to outperform map after a certain number of trials
17:25	kharrington	but that being said, if the call isn't iterated a ton of times, would the jitter actually be a reasonable thing to consider for performance's sake?
17:26	kharrington	in the context of the call being contained in a bunch of other code
17:27	TimMc	No, because you can't predict jitter, so why let it contaminate your results?
17:27	TimMc	Ultimately, things like branch prediction become important in real-world code, so these toy loops don't even tell us much.
17:28	TimMc	I.e., wait until you have slow code, then try replacing for with map. :-)
17:28	kharrington	mmm... but i'm curious now!
17:29	TimMc	I just don't think you can say "for is faster than map" (or vice versa) outside the context of a full program.
17:29	TimMc	Everything is relative, there is no god, etc.
17:40	amalloy	TimMc: no, i think map is faster than for, without exception
17:40	amalloy	it just doesn't matter
17:41	amalloy	since for macroexpands into a big mess that has a map deep down inside
17:46	amalloy	on further inspection, it doesn't contain any maps, it does the lazy-seq stuff manually. whatever
17:50	kharrington	amalloy: i'm not so sure anymore though. i have been running a loop that steps through various sized maps, trying both let [... map ... for] and [... for ... map], and it really seems to be more or less equaling out, generally favoring for if the hash map is large
17:50	kharrington	far too much time spent on this at this point though
17:58	TimMc	They're both O(n), it's all good.
18:00	amalloy	TimMc: laziness makes even that a confusing thing to say
18:00	amalloy	concat is O(n), except that it's also O(1)
18:01	TimMc	returns in O(1), computes in O(n)
18:01	kharrington	and hence the argument about usage in the context of a real program
18:10	tomoj	does (range) "return" in O(infinity) ?
18:11	hiredman	it is O(1) but walking the result is O(n) where n is too large
18:14	TimMc	,(let [N (range)]) ; tomoj
18:14	clojurebot	nil
18:14	tomoj	er, "compute"
18:14	TimMc	yeah
18:15	TimMc	But it is O(n), where n is infinity,
18:15	tomoj	that doesn't make any sense
18:15	TimMc	kharrington: ##(let [N (range)] N) won't hurt
18:15	kharrington	doall
18:15	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
18:15	tomoj	I guess "O(n)" hardly ever really means O(n)
18:15	TimMc	See?
18:16	TimMc	tomoj: range is O(n). (range) uses an infinitely high n,
18:17	amalloy	i realized recently that intern (as in java's string interning) is just (memoize identity)
18:18	amalloy	not really related to this O(n) discussion but i thought someone here would find it interesting all the same
18:18	TimMc	,(doc memoize)
18:18	clojurebot	"([f]); Returns a memoized version of a referentially transparent function. The memoized version of the function keeps a cache of the mapping from arguments to results and, when calls with the same arguments are repeated often, has higher performance at the expense of higher memory use."
18:19	TimMc	Hmm, it doesn't say what is used for equality.
18:19	amalloy	=
18:19	TimMc	&source memoize
18:19	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
18:20	TimMc	$source memoize
18:20	lazybot	memoize is http://is.gd/se7JvF
18:20	amalloy	&(let [intern (memoize identity)] (identical? (intern "test") (intern (str "te" "st"))))
18:20	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! intern is bad!
18:20	TimMc	hah
18:20	amalloy	&(let [int (memoize identity)] (identical? (int "test") (int (str "te" "st"))))
18:20	lazybot	⇒ true
18:20	amalloy	&(identical? "test" (str "te" "st"))
18:20	lazybot	⇒ false
18:21	amalloy	i mean, really i guess what's used for equality is hash-map/get
18:21	TimMc	So clojail bans by symbol, not var.
18:21	amalloy	TimMc: yes, clojail is remarkably stupid in many ways
18:21	amalloy	but it's hard to do better
18:21	TimMc	Conservatively stupid, I would hope.
18:22	amalloy	mostly. there are areas where you can't really do that; sandboxing is a huge topic
18:22	amalloy	(tune in at the conj for Raynes's talk about clojail, if you're interested)
18:23	TimMc	Huh, "find".
18:23	amalloy	find is sweet
18:23	hiredman	some day the clojure compiler will have the hooks
18:24	amalloy	hiredman: i would love that
18:24	TimMc	,(let [eval 3])
18:24	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
18:24	TimMc	"SANBOX" :-P
18:25	reburg	hey #clojure... trying to construct a multipart HTTP POST... I have a File object, but I'm not sure where to go from there.
18:25	reburg	i'm using clj-http for now, but i'm not wedded to it in any way
18:25	hiredman	I sort of started fiddling with the compiler to expose hooks for it, but it rapidly degenerated into something rather distasteful
18:26	amalloy	TimMc: all the clojure sandboxing environments are woefully insufficient at the moment
18:27	naeu	hi there
18:27	amalloy	,((resolve (symbol (str "ev" "al"))) '(inc 1)) ;; for example
18:27	clojurebot	2
18:28	TimMc	yup
18:28	amalloy	clojail has its own issues, like the ability to spin up new threads that the sandbox can't kill off
18:28	TimMc	I recall some other neat tricks.
18:28	naeu	I was hoping someone could help me with a macro I'm trying to write
18:28	amalloy	(which problem is currently causing us headaches at 4clojure)
18:29	hiredman	clojurebots sandbox is actually running in a different classloader and with a different version of clojure than clojurebot now, which is kind of neat
18:29	naeu	(defmacro foo [& body] `(let [bar# (some-fn-which-returns-a-list)] (let [~@bar#] ~@body)))
18:29	amalloy	yeah, i like that feature
18:29	naeu	I'd like to do somethign like this
18:29	hiredman	impossible or very hard to get at clojurebot internals from the sandbox
18:29	amalloy	naeu: you can't
18:30	TimMc	amalloy: But Clojure needs to say yes! :-P
18:30	naeu	amalloy: is it totally impossible? :-(
18:30	amalloy	yes
18:30	TimMc	...and with that I am headed home.
18:30	amalloy	TimMc: see, i said yes
18:30	amalloy	naeu: i mean, you can do anything with eval
18:30	naeu	amalloy: sure
18:31	amalloy	but you need the let-bindings available at compile-time, and you want them to be computed at run-time
18:31	naeu	yup, that's the size of it
18:31	TimMc	naeu: macros are syntax transformers -- they turn your code into other code before any values are available
18:32	TimMc	(really actually heading home now)
18:32	naeu	TimMc: thanks
18:32	naeu	i'll look for another approach then
18:36	simard	I have a list and I want to create a hash-map out of that list (the list's items are the keys, the initial value would be nil for all of them), is there a function for that ?
18:36	tomoj	sure you don't just want {}?
18:36	simard	?
18:37	amalloy	&(zipmap [:a :b :c] (repeat nil))
18:37	lazybot	⇒ {:c nil, :b nil, :a nil}
18:37	dakrone	reburg: right now I don't think there's a way to do multipart POSTS with clj-http
18:37	tomoj	oh, are you using it kind of like a set too?
18:37	dakrone	reburg: may be worth looking into though, I'll add it to the TODO
18:37	reburg	dakrone: any idea of what i should be using?
18:37	amalloy	&(into {} (for [k [:a :b :c]] [k nil]))
18:37	lazybot	⇒ {:a nil, :b nil, :c nil}
18:37	tomoj	&(= (:foo {}) (:foo {:foo nil}))
18:37	lazybot	⇒ true
18:38	amalloy	oh, i see what you're getting at, tomoj
18:38	dakrone	reburg: I don't know of any library that does it currently, sorry
18:38	simard	hehehe I don't
18:38	simard	but zipmap and into are what I want
18:38	amalloy	simard: a map with no entries is indistinguishavle, in most contexts, from a map with keys that have nil values
18:38	tomoj	there is no reason to put those keys in there unless you do something like (get the-map a-key :not-found) or check keys or something
18:39	simard	tomoj: I intend to fill it later
18:39	amalloy	tomoj: or (= m1 m2)
18:39	reburg	dakrone: actually, it doesn't have to be multipart... how would i go about doing a post w/ the file contents in the body?
18:39	tomoj	just fill it later then :)
18:39	amalloy	simard: doesn't matter
18:39	simard	tomoj: well yes, I want to test the presence of a key, actually
18:39	tomoj	ah
18:39	simard	probably :)
18:40	tomoj	contains? would be a good reason too
18:40	amalloy	tomoj: i considered that to be enfolded by "or check keys or something"
18:41	tomoj	that was accidental, I meant keys the function :)
18:42	Netpilgrim	What is wrong with this reimplementation of map: https://gist.github.com/1236249 E.g., I get an NPE for (map- inc [1 2 3]).
18:42	amalloy	Netpilgrim: you forgot an end-condition
18:42	amalloy	(take 3 (map- inc [1 2 3])) probably works fine
18:43	Netpilgrim	amalloy: Oh. That should have been obvious. Thanks.
18:43	jli	mbac: write more clojure
18:44	amalloy	jli: did i miss a message from mbac?
18:44	jli	amalloy: no, I just know him IRL :)
18:45	reburg	actually, i need to run. thanks for your help dakrone!
18:46	dakrone	reburg: sorry I couldn't help more, hit me up later
19:04	Netpilgrim	amalloy: Small bug in 4clojure: If you sort the problems by difficulty, the order is alphabetical (easy, elemantary, hard, medium).
19:06	naeu	how might I refer clojure into a namespace created by create-ns?
19:06	amalloy	Netpilgrim: yeah, if you're handy with javascript i'm sure the patch to configure data.tables to do that is minimal
19:06	amalloy	and we'd be happy to take it
19:07	Netpilgrim	amalloy: I’ve actually managed to stay away from JavaScript.
19:08	jli	amalloy: not quite rewritten in clojurescript yet? :P
19:09	amalloy	jli: unlikely to ever happen
19:09	jli	hum, why's that?
19:11	amalloy	i'm not at all excited about adding a compilation step for the js, especially a compilation step that doesn't work on openjdk (last i checked)
19:11	jli	hm, yeah.
19:12	amalloy	and since we're using jquery and all that crap, we couldn't use the optimizing compiler; we'd just end up with really bloated js code
19:12	amalloy	and everyone who wants to touch the frontend would have to learn cljs...there's just no compelling reason to switch
19:16	hiredman	https://thestrangeloop.com/sessions/post-pc-computing-is-not-a-vision <-- this was a pretty depressing talk
19:16	hiredman	"js everywhere!!!"
19:16	rbranson	heh
19:16	hiredman	I think he meant it as something to be excited about
19:16	rbranson	the rant of a senile old man
19:16	technomancy	hiredman: http://twitter.com/#!/dibblego/status/116861441876824064
19:17	hiredman	at one point he had a slide with a js+html+dom stack super imposed on a washing machine
19:17	companion_cube	is there something to read on it on the web?
19:18	hiredman	his slides will be up at some point
19:18	hiredman	not worth a read
19:18	rbranson	maybe he'll fix the rampant typos
19:18	hiredman	do-deca-dec worst talk at strangeloop
19:18	rbranson	by far
19:18	rbranson	made richey look even more like a bawss
19:19	rbranson	hickey, wow
19:19	jli	what did rich talk about?
19:19	amalloy	the perils of TDD, to judge from the twitterverse
19:19	hiredman	:D I went out to eat with rich and some relevence guys afterwards, it was sweet
19:19	jli	hm, interesting
19:20	rbranson	he made like one comment about TDD, but everyone got all caremad
19:20	companion_cube	many talks seem cool
19:20	rbranson	I don't think he's even against TDD, just the zealotry
19:20	hiredman	well, the middle D there
19:20	technomancy	hiredman: man, I got stuck at a scala dinner where they were commisserating the scala-bashing in the keynote
19:20	hiredman	hah
19:20	simard	I have this snippet here: http://pastebin.com/bHN00AZp , which I'd like to simplify or make more elegant, is there anything obviously wrong to it ?
19:21	technomancy	hiredman: actually it wasn't that bad
19:21	jli	technomancy: what was the keynote?
19:21	amalloy	(comp #{:a-type} :type)
19:21	rbranson	yeah it wasn't -- he pretty much pissed off everyone in one way or another
19:21	technomancy	except for the part where he was all "I still don't believe that anyone who actually understands the curry-howard isomorphisms could really be against having a type system."
19:21	rbranson	which is what made it so great
19:21	technomancy	jli: rich's simplicity keynote
19:21	technomancy	couple thinly-veiled jabs at scala in there
19:22	jli	heh
19:22	technomancy	or at least that's how the scala guys took it
19:22	rbranson	he had jabs to go around :D
19:23	technomancy	http://twitter.com/#!/moonpolysoft/status/116269563389296640
19:23	technomancy	(SFW)
19:23	rbranson	except for the dick background? ;)
19:24	technomancy	oops
19:24	technomancy	SFW compared to the average moonpolysoft tweet
19:24	technomancy	(it's just ascii; don't worry)
19:24	amalloy	sorta depends where you work
19:25	rbranson	where I work -- doesn't matter
19:25	mdeboard	Anyone know of any person/people/organization(s) doing any ML (or greater AI) work with Clojure?
19:25	amalloy	i'm really just trying to wedge in a joke about technomancy working at a porn studio, but i can't get it to make sense
19:27	rbranson	http://blog.markwshead.com/1069/simple-made-easy-rich-hickey/ <--- notes
19:27	technomancy	I'll defer to danlarkin
19:27	mdeboard	rbranson: Since you own Virgin International, you could come in to work wearing a suit made of dildos and no one would say a word.
19:27	rbranson	they would probably say lots of words, really
19:28	mdeboard	"Nice suit, Mr. Branson!"
19:28	mdeboard	THanks for the link, btw, was looking
19:29	rbranson	i'd wait for the video before looking at the slides -- will just be confusing
19:29	jli	man, I really don't understand how to follow discussion on twitter :(
19:30	rbranson	if anything, I think it most thoroughly bashes the NodeJS and MongoDB crowd the most
19:30	technomancy	rbranson: "This is UNIX^H^H^H^HJabbascript; I know this!"
19:31	danlarkin	confirmed, technomancy works at a porn studio
19:31	mdeboard	nice
19:31	jli	leiningen was a classic film - kudos
19:31	technomancy	danlarkin: just because you keep adding me as a clojuredongs committer...
19:32	mdeboard	lol.
19:32	jli	all those ants, superhot
19:32	mdeboard	rbranson: Do you have any idea when said video will surface @ InfoQ?
19:32	mdeboard	Just reading those notes have piqued my interest. We do everything the "easy" way at work.
19:32	rbranson	mdeboard: they are really slow
19:32	rbranson	at least they were for 2010
19:33	mdeboard	THey pace them out to milk page views I'm sure
19:33	rbranson	mdeboard: it was pretty transformational in my thinking… sounds cliche but whatever
19:33	mdeboard	hoping Mssr. Hickey's is among the first
19:33	mdeboard	rbranson: You're the second person who's said that about that talk, of the two people I've talked to about it
19:34	hiredman	rich mentioned something about if/cond being "complected" (bad) which was interesting
19:34	technomancy	a lot of what he said was in Stuart H's conj talk if you just can't wait.
19:34	rbranson	i'm not even a clojure user really. have looked into the concepts because i find them interesting, and after his talk, i'm looking more into it just after all that
19:35	hiredman	no one really has said anything about that
19:35	hiredman	he mentioned using a rules engine instead
19:35	technomancy	hiredman: and/or predicate dispatch
19:35	technomancy	IIRC
19:36	technomancy	but yeah, being dataflow-ish was a theme between him and sussman
19:36	hiredman	really? I don't recall him mentioning predicate dispatch there
19:37	hiredman	pattern matching was mentioned separately from if/cond I believe
19:37	technomancy	perhaps that was a jump I made in my own head
19:38	technomancy	closed/open -> match/pred-dispatch was mentioned by dnolen at least.
19:38	hiredman	right
19:38	technomancy	and cond basically only exists as a compilation target for match, right? =)
19:39	rbranson	told everyone to go fuck themselves and use prolog ;D
19:41	dnolen	I think Rich was advocating moving conditionals outside of fns - predicate dispatch / rules are both ways to get there.
19:42	dnolen	rules/logic programming also good ways to emphasize what over how
19:44	mdeboard	dnolen: "outside of fns"?
19:45	mdeboard	What's fns stand for?
19:45	mdeboard	Oh
19:45	mdeboard	`fn`s
19:45	rbranson	like not using if-then-else statements basically
19:45	mdeboard	derp.
19:49	hiredman	which I don't really get, like if I replace (if (> 3 4) a b) with (query-expert-system (is (> 3 4)) (choices a b)) dunno how that is different
19:49	hiredman	which is why I found it an interesting point
19:50	rbranson	<dnolen> rules/logic programming also good ways to emphasize what over how
19:50	rbranson	that is basically it
19:51	rbranson	it's hard to make a bunch of if-then-else spaghetti composable
19:51	hiredman	but it means the rule engine has to drive your code, you can't just query it
19:52	rbranson	i'm not expert, but i agree… just because the rule code i've written & seen has all been terrible
19:54	dnolen	hiredman: I don't think he's talking about simple conditionals. But once you start getting to more than 4-5 cases, probably a good target for pred dispatch / rules
19:55	rbranson	interdependent rule code also tends to get littered across the codebase
19:58	companion_cube	I find that in many cases, complicated if/then/else should be local only, and conditional otherwise should be replaced by something like an event system that uncouples parts of the application
19:59	mdeboard	rbranson: I found your personal website and am forced to dismiss your opinion
19:59	mdeboard	rbranson: On everything
19:59	rbranson	mdeboard: quit stalking me :)
19:59	mdeboard	I wish I could unsee it
20:00	mdeboard	also I wanted to make sure you weren't the famous richard branson
20:01	rbranson	thanks for reminding me to update it to something more relevant
20:03	mdeboard	I dunno, I think you could market it as an avant garde critique of modern web design
20:03	rbranson	it's much better now
20:05	mdeboard	rbranson: Wow
20:05	mdeboard	nailed it.
20:05	rbranson	they call me the oracle
20:06	dnolen	companion_cube: interesting opinion given that dispatch on type is one giant non-local conditional statement
20:08	companion_cube	dnolen: i wasn't thinking of type-based events
20:09	companion_cube	more something like FRP
20:09	companion_cube	let's say a system in which events are objets, not types
20:27	hiredman	dnolen: right the simple if is jsut an example
21:06	cemerick	dnolen: where did 'swannodette' come from, anyway?
21:08	rbranson	nytimes I believe
21:12	cemerick	rbranson: really?
21:31	amalloy	cemerick: you should wear a mask at the conj, for everyone else's safety
21:31	redinger	If he wears a mask how would we tell him and Fogus apart?
21:32	amalloy	we could ask which one has published a...damn!
21:33	dnolen	cemerick: marcel proust
21:33	cemerick	amalloy: don't jinx it! ;-)
21:36	amalloy	/join #lame
21:36	amalloy	they wouldn't let me in. not sure if this is a good sign or bad
21:39	cemerick	"I never wanted to be part of any club that would have me as a member."?
21:51	ibdknox	dnolen: just sent out my post to clojure-dev, loops themselves are just incredibly slow
21:56	gtrak	do you have to do anything special to make cljsc compile multiple files?
21:57	ibdknox	gtrak: no
21:57	gtrak	it doesn't see the :require'd file
21:57	ibdknox	gtrak: http://github.com/ibdknox/cljs-watch might make your life easier
21:57	ibdknox	are you compiling a specific file? or a directory?
21:58	gtrak	a file, but I suppose it should be the directory?
21:59	ibdknox	yep
22:03	dnolen	ibdknox: it's not loop/recur that is slow, it's doseq - that'll wrap array in a ArraySeq
22:03	dnolen	ibdknox: I would measure with raw loop/recur
22:05	ibdknox	dnolen: I'll add numbers for that in a few
22:13	ibdknox	dnolen: still 2 orders of magnitude off
22:13	ibdknox	dnolen: does drop it down to 3000 though instead of 4500
22:13	dnolen	ibdknox: what's the compiled JS look like?
22:14	dnolen	ibdknox: and is this in advanced compiliation mode?
22:14	dnolen	ibdknox: I'm pretty sure deep property lookup gets eliminated by the compiler, which is another big perf hit.
22:15	ibdknox	dnolen: collecting advanced numbers now
22:17	ibdknox	dnolen: gist updated with advanced mode output. Still 1700-2000ms
22:18	dnolen	ibdknox: what gist?
22:18	ibdknox	https://gist.github.com/1236554
22:21	dnolen	ibdknox: you're just measure seq performance, not loop performance. using range to control iteration is not going to be fast, instantiation per step
22:21	dnolen	measuring
22:22	ibdknox	dnolen: good point. One sec
22:22	ibdknox	indeed.
22:23	ibdknox	dnolen: all the way down to 126!
22:23	ibdknox	dnolen: problem is seqs are how we interact with everything
22:23	dnolen	ibdknox: now you're paying for the fact that (inc i) should be inlined
22:23	ibdknox	yes
22:23	dnolen	ibdknox: no in hi-perf Clojure you don't use seqs
22:23	dnolen	nor in ClojureScript
22:23	dnolen	same rules apply
22:24	ibdknox	dnolen: the correct solution is an array?
22:24	dnolen	ibdknox: array ops + loop/recur with an integer counter
22:25	ibdknox	dnolen: why can't that just be an implementation detail?
22:25	dnolen	ibdknox: they should be but we haven't figured out what that is yet. That was idea behind Pods.
22:28	ibdknox	dnolen: maybe that's something we should try to get out of the conj. It seems very wrong to me that I have to explicitly not use one of the best parts of Clojure to be able to do something realistic.
22:30	dnolen	ibdknox: we'll have to pick rhickey's brain, he got started on it, but stalled because he couldn't solve something around access in multithreaded scenario, but maybe we don't need to care about that.
22:31	pcerrato	Rich's "sequences" talk appears to have shrunk to 8 seconds both on blip.tv and iTunes. Anyone know where I can find to full talk?
22:39	amalloy	pcerrato: rich can convey a lot of information in 8 seconds
22:40	pcerrato	this is true ...
22:40	symbole	Any StrangeLoop videos posted already?
23:09	livingston	I have a list that I am destructuring, it will have 3 or sometimes 4 items, the 4th is optional. a valid value for the fourth is nil, so what's the best way to detect the difference between a given nil and an unprovided nil?
23:10	srid	%g tools.match
23:10	srid	$g tools.match
23:11	srid	livingston: use multiple arity function and core.match?
23:12	livingston	it's not multiple arity, the input is one list e.g. [[a b c d]] where sometimes the function will be called (foo '(x y z))
23:13	brehaut	livingston: kind of hideous but ((fn [[a b c d :as l]] (if (= 4 (count l)) d :no-d)) [1 2 3])
23:14	livingston	right now I'm just doing [[a b c d :as x]] and then checkign the length of x
23:14	livingston	ha, that was what I was about to say. thanks.
23:19	brehaut	livingston: its much less horrible than ((fn f ([l] (apply f l)) ([a b c] :no-d) ([a b c d] d)) [1 2 3])
23:19	livingston	brehaut: what the heck is that?
23:20	brehaut	an abomination
23:20	ibdknox	it's probably cleaner to destructure in a let
23:20	ibdknox	and just take x as your param
23:21	brehaut	ibdknox: im just using fn because livingston said it was a function
23:21	livingston	ibdknox: I am. this is part of a bigger thing
23:21	ibdknox	livingston: good deal
23:22	livingston	brehaut: yeah it doesn't much matter, destructure here or there it's 6 one way, half dozen the other
23:22	livingston	i'm assuming the desctruring in the call signature is just syntactic sugar that macros away to something like that anyway
23:22	ibdknox	well
23:23	ibdknox	yes, but the way you would then write that code changes significantly
23:23	brehaut	livingstone, the macro just calls destructure
23:23	livingston	oh but duh if I have the parameter I don't need the :as bit
23:23	ibdknox	because you can use an if while destructuring
23:24	livingston	(fn [quad] (let [[a b c d] quad] (if (= 4 (count quad)) ...
23:27	srid	something like http://pow.cx/ but for clojure would be cool.
23:28	ibdknox	srid: what is missing from Noir for that to be true?
23:28	srid	livingston: you can also `apply` the fn over the list (create wrapper function that does that)
23:28	livingston	srid: yeah but that seems messy, destructure will do it.
23:29	srid	ibdknox: pow is framework agnostic. pow for clojure would be more like 'run any ring-based apps -- based on "lein run"' just by symlinking the code directory (with auto-restart, etc..)
23:29	ibdknox	srid: so kind of like lein ring server then? Except maybe a bit more robust
23:30	srid	ibdknox: yea, but not tied to single app. ln ~/code/myrubyapp ~/.pow is all that is required to have http://myrubyapp.dev refer to a running server
23:30	ibdknox	I see
23:30	srid	that's `ln` (symlink)
23:30	ibdknox	yep
23:31	ibdknox	seems like it wouldn't be hard to build
23:31	ibdknox	the only difficult part is the vhosts
23:32	amalloy	&(map (fn [[a b c & [d :as has-d]]] [a b c d has-d]) [[1 2 3 4] [5 6 7]])?
23:32	lazybot	⇒ ([1 2 3 4 (4)] [5 6 7 nil nil])
23:32	amalloy	livingston, brehaut: ^
23:32	brehaut	amalloy: aha of course
23:34	brehaut	ibdknox, srid: would multicast dns be a solution to that?
23:34	livingston	amalloy: interesting, I'm not really sure how that makes me feel, but it'd certainly work
23:34	livingston	it avoids the counting that I don't like
23:34	ibdknox	amalloy: I feel like we could get juxt in there somewhere ;)
23:34	amalloy	livingston: the counting is evil; it means you couldn't ever extend this pattern to work for infinite sequences, for example
23:35	livingston	someone better not be putting one of those here.
23:35	ibdknox	livingston: what does the function do? lol
23:36	ibdknox	it's kind of a weird pattern
23:36	livingston	I would hope that the compiler could optimize (= 4 (count ... )) to know that it can stop at 5 but maybe it can't
23:36	ibdknox	it doesn't
23:37	livingston	that's why some people recomend testing (rest (rest ...)) if you want to know if there is more than 2
23:37	amalloy	cough next, not rest
23:37	brehaut	nnext
23:37	ibdknox	nth!
23:38	amalloy	&(nthnext [1 2 3] 2)
23:38	lazybot	⇒ (3)
23:38	amalloy	&(nthnext [1 2 3] 3)
23:38	lazybot	⇒ nil
23:38	livingston	in common-lisp it was neither either nth-cdr or (cddr
23:38	brehaut	because common lisp is anti vowels?
23:38	ibdknox	lol
23:38	technomancy	brehaut: optimized for wheel of fortune!
23:39	livingston	ibdknox: the function takes an rdf triple or optionally a quad if the graph is specified, if the graph isn't specified it goes to the default graph.
23:39	brehaut	technomancy: the APL edition of WoF would be quite hard
23:39	technomancy	hehe
23:39	amalloy	technomancy: i assume it's so you can replacd or replaca it?
23:39	livingston	technomancy: how else would you change the value?
23:40	technomancy	livingston: change? what's change?
23:40	livingston	brehaut: you could have some 'a's in there ... (caddr that's "third"
23:40	ibdknox	we don't need no stinkin' changes here
23:41	simard	I have a list of hash-maps ({:N 1 :string "stuff" :more "stuff"} {:N 2 :string "hello" :more "world"}) and I want to find the first hash that matches with a candidate hash that contains all keys but one, like {:string "stuff" :more "stuff"}. if there is a match, I want {:N 1 :string "stuff" :more "stuff"} to be returned, otherwise nil.
23:41	simard	there's probably an easy way out, right ? :)
23:42	livingston	simard: is it one specific key you don't want?
23:42	simard	no, I want it
23:42	simard	I just don't care if it matches or not
23:42	simard	and yes, it's one specific key
23:42	simard	say, :N
23:42	livingston	(some (fn [m] (not (:bad-key m))) maps)
23:43	livingston	that's not what your asking though right you want a set of keys to match?
23:43	amalloy	&(let [maps '({:N 1 :string "stuff" :more "stuff"} {:N 2 :string "hello" :more "world"}), test {:string "stuff" :more "stuff"}] (first (filter #(= test (dissoc % :N)) maps)))?
23:43	lazybot	⇒ {:N 1, :string "stuff", :more "stuff"}
23:43	ibdknox	meh
23:43	ibdknox	you beat me to it
23:44	simard	meh indeed
23:44	ibdknox	simard: hm? amalloy's solution is a good one
23:44	amalloy	ibdknox: all of my code is correct on the first try so i just type it into irc without testing
23:45	ibdknox	lol
23:45	simard	yes I agree, I'm just impressed that anything I ask here is answered within the minute
23:45	simard	lol
23:45	amalloy	simard: maybe a language issue? "meh" is an expression of...apathy or indifference
23:45	simard	amalloy: yes I guess that's it
23:45	simard	should have been, "wow"
23:46	brehaut	the great thing about #clojure is that it acts like prolog. you ask a question and you get a stream of answers until hiredman says 'no'
23:46	ibdknox	hahaha
23:46	ibdknox	or 'incorrect'
23:46	amalloy	nice
23:47	amalloy	i'm sure i've answered at least one question today with "no"
23:48	amalloy	someone wanted to do something crazy with a macro that needed runtime information
23:48	technomancy	amalloy: steve yegge disapproves.
23:48	ibdknox	srsly
23:48	amalloy	technomancy: second one to make that joke about my answer already :)
23:48	ibdknox	Let's ostracize him.
23:49	technomancy	oh snap
23:49	amalloy	amalloy: naeu: you can't
23:49	amalloy	TimMc: amalloy: But Clojure needs to say yes! :-P
23:51	ibdknox	I feel like I should write something ridiculous that lets me write awesome blog posts like this one: http://blog.whatsapp.com/index.php/2011/09/one-million/
23:52	amalloy	ibdknox: just make a bunch of money instead. then you can write: "I recently deployed my horizontally-scaled webapp, with an established TCP connection on each of my million machines"
23:52	ibdknox	hahaha
23:52	ibdknox	funny you should mention that...
23:53	ibdknox	One of our original plans for typewire was to essentially spin up 600 machines to handle a couple of very high traffic events
23:53	ibdknox	that's when I ditched node.js ;)
23:54	livingston	what's the business plan for that thing?
23:55	ibdknox	What do you mean exactly? Right now it's mostly just sitting there with a few folks using it
23:56	ibdknox	Got screwed over by the contracts of a couple competitors
23:56	livingston	I mean how do they plan on monitizing "i'm going to let you use a lot of my bandwidth for free"?
23:56	ibdknox	ah, totally misunderstood. For whatsapp? I have no idea. I can only imagine their magical 1 million connections are all dormant
23:57	livingston	yeah sorry I ment whatsapp
23:57	ibdknox	so in theory they're not really shelling out much money
23:57	ibdknox	but yeah, it's not clear how they intend to monitize
23:58	livingston	if they are going to start routing messages texts whatever that costs them something, so I was just wondering how they planed to even recoup that? unless the whatapp app has a high enough cost
23:59	ibdknox	$0.99 doesn't seem like enough to cover a user over the lifetime of use