#clojure – 2011-09-15

2011-09-15

00:08	srid	amalloy_: why doesn't 4clojure accept `def`?
01:19	nickmbailey	why would '(type (int 1))' return java.lang.Long?
01:29	nickmbailey	seems like a bug
01:32	quotemstr	Why doesn't ClojureScript have refs?
01:35	brehaut	quotemstr: because there is no shared state concurrency in javascript
01:37	brehaut	nickmbailey: in clj 1.2, type either returns the :type meta data for its argument, or the class. if in returns a primative its not going to have meta, so it will be boxed into an object (in this case a long apparently) for class
01:38	nickmbailey	brehaut: its actually a 1.3 thing
01:38	nickmbailey	it returns java.lang.Integer on 1.2
01:38	brehaut	nickmbailey: then i have no idea
01:38	nickmbailey	but java.lang.Long on 1.3rc0
01:39	nickmbailey	i assume its due to the fact that function arguments are auto boxed into actual objects so you can't really pass primitives
01:39	nickmbailey	but it seems like an int primitive should be boxed into Integer
01:39	brehaut	in 1.2 that would be the case
01:40	nickmbailey	i think its the case in 1.3 if you don't add primitive type hints
01:41	nickmbailey	oh you can only type hint longs and doubles
01:42	nickmbailey	i wonder if int even returns an integer primitive in 1.3
02:20	nickmbailey	yeah looks like in 1.3 all primitives are boxed to either long or float, i guess that makes sense
03:59	tsdh	Hi
04:01	tsdh	I've just read something (book, blog, whatever) that demonstrated clojure's java interop by creating some AWT frame that translated a given function's value to RGB and printed it in some canvas. But I can't remember where I've read that. Do you?
05:09	fliebel	Next month I'm going to live code a web app in 15 minutes. I'm thinking about a simple wiki with Ring, Moustache and Hiccup, or something like that. Any input?
05:10	fliebel	It's for the Amsterdam Clojurians meetup, Uncle Bob is also going to present that month.
05:12	TheBusby	tsdh: Joy of Clojure?
05:14	scottj	fliebel: simple multiplayer version of http://strategerygame.com/ including cljs :)
05:14	tsdh	tsdh: Already looked there, but couldn't find it...
05:15	TheBusby	Page 87
05:15	tsdh	TheBusby: Ah, found it.
05:15	tsdh	:-)
05:16	tsdh	I've only checked the Java.next chapter...
05:17	bsteuber	scottj: looks really nice - how much cljs does it involve?
05:17	scottj	fliebel: http://canvas.opalang.org/ would also be cool, especially if the audience could use functionality as you add it
05:17	fliebel	Whoa, write a game in 15 minutes?
05:17	scottj	fliebel: tic tac toe?
05:17	TheBusby	fliebel: minesweeper?
05:18	bsteuber	oh I misunderstood it, nevermind :)
05:18	Fossi	i dislike such talks for being "lazy", because you can't really show off the hard parts
05:18	Fossi	i'd maybe concentrate on corners that aren't so easy to get right
05:19	Fossi	or mistakes that are prone to happen if somebody would try without knowing the frameworks/domain much
05:21	robermann	fliebel: a music live coding? http://mad.emotionull.com/
05:22	fliebel	Hm, fair point. What are hard parts in your opinion?
05:22	Fossi	don't know moustache or hiccup very well
05:22	Fossi	serving static resources with the right mime types and headers
05:22	fliebel	robermann: We had Jeff Rose show off Overtone a while back.
05:22	Fossi	getting authorization to work
05:23	Fossi	little things like that
05:23	robermann	(fliebel: ok )
05:23	thorwil	fliebel: not sure for a wiki, but for a blog, nested comments and role-depending variations in the views can make things complicated
05:23	fliebel	Auth might be nice.
05:23	Fossi	how to work in session data and keeping your site functional
05:23	Fossi	how to connect some backend
05:23	Fossi	(ie, get data first, then render)
05:23	Fossi	switching renderers from html to json maybe
05:25	clgv	fliebel: +1 for authorization
05:25	thorwil	handling cases where the same html fragments need to be generated server-side first, then on client-side for updates
05:28	fliebel	I think the game is nice, But not sure it fits in 15 minutes. Because things like Ruby on Rail can generate a lot of the CRUD for you. Doing non-standard stuff is more powerful I think.
05:32	fliebel	Thanks for the input everyone :)
05:33	Fossi	we've been hacking a meetup replacement in the clojure hamburg group for a while :)
05:33	Fossi	so we've had quite a few of those talks :)
06:19	tsdh	If a java class has both a field foo as well as a method foo without args, what will (.foo obj) access? And how can I access the other?
06:20	clgv	tsdh: is that possible?
06:20	tsdh	clgv: Yes
06:21	tsdh	clgv: For java, it's easy to distinguish obj.foo from obj.foo().
06:22	clgv	tsdh: it calls the method in my example.
06:22	opqdonut	tsdh: that will call the method
06:22	clgv	tsdh: maybe you can use the more verbose java interop where it might be distinguished
06:23	tsdh	clgv: (. foo obj) has the same semantics, doesn't it?
06:24	opqdonut	yes
06:24	clgv	tsdh: well it cant access the property it seems ;
06:24	tsdh	clgv: If you already have an example, could you check if (set! (.foo obj) 42) works?
06:24	opqdonut	ISTR that obj/foo works for the field, but is undocumented
06:25	opqdonut	no
06:26	clgv	tsdh: it pretends to do something by returning the number
06:26	tsdh	clgv: Thanks
06:26	clgv	but I cant read the value back as it is now ;)
06:27	clgv	tsdh: yes it works
06:27	tsdh	Great
06:28	mcstar	hi
06:28	mcstar	im in trouble with swank-clojure
06:28	tsdh	Well, the foo/foo() is a basically a non-issue. usually it's foo/getFoo()...
06:28	mcstar	what is the preffered way nowadays to get slime working with clojure?
06:29	clgv	mcstar: technomancys guide?
06:31	mcstar	lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.2
06:31	mcstar	thats what he says
06:31	mcstar	however it seems when i lein swank and then slime-connect that the swank clojure is from 20100404
06:31	mcstar	or some like that
06:32	clgv	didnt he have a detailed guide up? I thought I remember him posting a link sometime...
06:32	mcstar	the slime prompt accepts numbers, but not expressions like (+ 3 4)
06:32	tsdh	mcstar: I use only clojure-mode and did the lein plugin recipe. From inside emacs, I simply do M-x clojure-jack-in. Works fine...
06:32	mcstar	clgv: ive only found the github readme of his
06:32	mcstar	tsdh: do you start lein before?
06:33	mcstar	sorry guys im new to java/maven/ant/leiningen
06:34	joshnz	mcstar: I went thru your pain a few weeks back. I added my notes on to the wiki: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs
06:34	mcstar	aham, clojure-jack-in starts the swank itself
06:35	mcstar	thx
06:35	tsdh	mcstar: No
06:35	tsdh	mcstar: I just open some clojure file in a project that contains a project.clj.
06:36	joshnz	I particular, the bottom paragraph where I attempt to explain how the process works. Clojure-jack-in will actually grab the slime.el file from swank-clojure 1.3.2 so it's a recent, working version of slime, independent of any other slime version you may have installed. I think.... lol
06:36	joshnz	I do what tsdh does. Open a file within a lein project and run clojure-jack-in
06:37	mcstar	i did just that
06:37	mcstar	than jacked in
06:38	mcstar	than swank started
06:38	mcstar	than it notified me of the version mismatch
06:38	joshnz	mcstar: I should add, I'm running clojure-mode 1.10.0 and swank-clojure 1.3.2. If you have different versions thing might not work. You also need to ensure you don't have older versions of swank-clojure around as that can cause issues
06:38	mcstar	than i can enter single expressions, but not anything other than a symbol
06:38	tsdh	I use clojure 1.3, clojure-mode 1.10.0 and lein-swank 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT.
06:39	mcstar	anyway, where does lein store its stuff?
06:39	tsdh	mcstar: Somewhere in ~/.lein/
06:39	joshnz	~/..lein
06:39	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
06:39	joshnz	the swank files are in the plugins dir
06:40	mcstar	ive got 1.3.2
06:40	joshnz	me too. I have no idea about clojure 1.3 with swank 1.4 snapshot sorry.
06:41	tsdh	mcstar: I think I had troubles once when in ~/.lein/self-installs/ there were multiple leiningen jars of different versions.
06:41	mcstar	emacs-clojure-mode-git 20110914-1
06:41	mcstar	leiningen-1.6.1.1-standalone.jar only
06:42	joshnz	mcstar: do you reference swank-clojure at all in the project.clj file? Do you have any swank jars anywhere within your project tree at all? You should remove all of these if you do, I don't believe they're needed and can cause issues
06:42	tsdh	Ah, good point.
06:42	scottj	cemerick: what's the name of the "open source generalized Bayesian network modeling library" in your abstract?
06:42	mcstar	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.2.1"]]
06:43	cemerick	scottj: I'm in the process of extracting it from a larger project :-)
06:44	scottj	cemerick: ok do you have an expected release timeframe?
06:44	cemerick	I'm hoping to get a first rev of it on github next month
06:46	scottj	cool I'm looking forward to it
07:01	clgv	Bayesian networks seem pretty popular nowadays
07:11	opqdonut	irc networks on the other hand are declining in popularity
07:14	clgv	lol
07:25	mcstar	whoa
07:25	mcstar	it seems to work
07:25	mcstar	with the old swank though
07:25	mcstar	i cleaned up my .emacs, and commented all the slime related things that i use with sbcl
07:26	mcstar	commented out*
07:27	mcstar	but i seem to lost my slime buffer?
07:29	mcstar	hm, maybe i just accidentaly closed it
07:30	mcstar	before i start hacking my way through clojure, i want to ask this
07:30	mcstar	is any of you familiar with AI Agent Systems?
07:31	mcstar	do you think that the clojure concurrenty agent model is a god candidate to implement such a system/model:
07:31	mcstar	?
07:31	mcstar	(pls get over my typos :))
07:34	companion_cube	agents can be in separate processes
07:34	companion_cube	(or computers, for that matter)
07:35	mcstar	(i forgot to tell that i added 1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT to the project dependencies)
07:36	mcstar	companion_cube: i dont care about that right now, it could be single-threaded (in the end it WILL be)
07:36	companion_cube	wait, you were talking about clojure's concurrency model
07:36	companion_cube	but it's a general-purpose concurrency model anyway, so i guess the answer is "yes"
07:38	mcstar	companion_cube: i guess i was hoping for some comparison, idk,for example erlang has a similar actor-based message passing concurrency model, so an agent system could be implemented in it "naturally" too
07:39	companion_cube	message passing can be done with queues
07:39	mcstar	companion_cube: i guess, clojure doesnt NEED multiple threads to do its agent-thing, right? it can serialize it
07:39	companion_cube	even if the actor model probably fits more naturally to AI's agents
07:39	companion_cube	oh, "agent" in clojure has a special meaning
07:40	mcstar	isnt it something that can initiate a transaction?
07:40	companion_cube	see http://clojure.org/agents
07:41	companion_cube	you give actions to the agent and it applies them to its state, sequentially
07:41	fliebel	I thought Moustache was super easy and intuitive? It just sits there staring at me, pretending it doesn't know what I mean.
07:42	manutter	It's thursday, moustache always takes extra breaks on thursday
07:42	mcstar	im halfway through rich hickey's presentation to the Western Mass or similar, thats how far my clojure understanding goes
07:43	mcstar	companion_cube: how do you pronounce rich?
07:43	mcstar	rik or rich?
07:43	companion_cube	no idea
07:43	mcstar	i guess the second one
07:43	companion_cube	i'm not an english native speaker
07:43	fliebel	manutter: I have a helper that looks like this: [title] {:get title} requesting /foo gives me java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn.
07:44	mcstar	companion_cube: i didnt think so, i thought you were a nice cube with a heart on it
07:45	mcstar	i was surprised you could write
07:45	manutter	fliebel: gist?
07:45	companion_cube	you're not supposed to read what i type 0:-)
07:45	mcstar	whats the tendency? do people usually come from the lisp world to clojure or not?
07:46	fliebel	manutter: That's all there is to it. If I make it a literal string, it works, so It's macro trickery.
07:46	fliebel	The thing is, if I pass it a handler, I don't get to acces title at all.
07:48	thorwil	mcstar: seems to be a wild mix of prior experience often including java, common lisp. sometimes python, ruby.
07:50	clgv	mcstar: I cam from java, c#, c, c++, pascal/delphi ;)
07:50	thorwil	fliebel: without more context, that looks like a complete misunderstanding of how moustache works
07:50	manutter	fliebel: I'm not really a moustache user, but from looking at the docs, I'd expect your app to look more like (def my-app (app ["foo" title] {:get title} title))
07:51	mcstar	i guess why im asking, is because i wasnt half as interested in clojure if it didnt have lisp fundamentals
07:51	manutter	no, I'm wrong
07:51	mcstar	wasnt->wouldnt be
07:52	manutter	fliebel: how about (app ["foo" title] {:get title})? That's still slightly different from what you posted, but if I'm reading the docs right it should work
07:52	thorwil	fliebel: how about [title] {:get (-> title constantly response)}?
07:52	fliebel	Let me see
07:53	manutter	no, I'm still wrong, I think. I'll just shut up and try drinking some coffee until I wake up.
07:54	thorwil	fliebel: that was implying [ring.util.response :only [response redirect]]
07:54	fliebel	thorwil: What is the constantly for?
07:55	thorwil	fliebel: makes it callable, as a fn is expected, as far as i understand it
07:56	fliebel	thorwil: That seemed to work... but it's silly. Oh, I think I know.
07:57	manutter	cgrand's example is (def my-app (app ["hi" name] (:get ["hello " name]}))
07:58	manutter	that should imply that fliebel's original code ought to work
07:58	manutter	it's the same without the "hi", and with title instead of name
07:58	fliebel	manutter: He's using s seq everywhere for some reason.
07:59	manutter	the example before that is (def my-app (app ["hi"] {:get "hello world only for GET!"})), which seems to return only a string
07:59	manutter	Meh, I'm sticking with noir :)
08:01	fliebel	["foo" title] {:get [title]} breaks, ["foo" title] {:get ["" title]} works
08:02	thorwil	fliebel: i'm all ears if you figured out why/when the response and constantly is necessary / how to do away with it
08:03	fliebel	thorwil: I'm about to just switch to Noir or DIY. I'm just looking for a sweet router without magic.
08:03	gtrak`	mcstar, i think a bunch of people came from java
08:04	thorwil	fliebel: moustache is very small, not much room for magic. but the allowed variations can be confusing
08:04	gtrak`	mcstar, like me, I always wanted to learn a lisp... and concurrency, so clojure was a good next step
08:04	thorwil	fliebel: with noir, routing becomes a bit less explicit, even
08:05	manutter	fleibel: Ok, I studied the syntax diagram a bit more, I understand why {:get title} doesn't work
08:05	fliebel	manutter: Yay! Whats it?
08:05	manutter	fliebel: after the {:get part, it's expecting a handler body, a method dispatch, a string, a symbol, or (some clojure code)
08:06	manutter	title by itself is a symbol, but there's a not that says, if it's a symbol, it must evaluate to a handler body
08:06	manutter	which it doesn't, because it's been mapped to just a param
08:07	manutter	if you say ["" title] then that invokes moustache's built-in handler that contatenates vectors as strings
08:07	manutter	eh, *but there's a NOTE that says...
08:08	fliebel	So, what about ["foo" title] {:get (response title)}, That is some clojure code.
08:08	fliebel	Just gives 404! No error, same request as before.
08:09	bhenry	fliebel: what does response do?
08:09	manutter	does (response x) return a handler function, or just response data?
08:09	manutter	I'm guessing that it returns a map, not an actual handler
08:09	fliebel	a response map, like {:status 200 :body "hwhatever"}
08:09	manutter	Ah, forgot to mention, another note says (some clojure code) has to return a handler
08:10	bhenry	fliebel: have you looked at delegate?
08:10	fliebel	ah, so its literal string or map, a handler or something that evaluates to a handler.
08:10	manutter	Looks that way to me
08:10	fliebel	bhenry: delegate?
08:11	mcstar	gtrak`: lisp is quite a lot in itself, i would imagine clojure is not that easy without prior lisp experience, but sure its ok if you give it enough time, or you are very determined
08:12	gtrak`	I had a scheme class 8 years ago :-), too bad they dropped it for python
08:13	mcstar	gtrak`: you know computers were getting faster, so they needed python to slow the execution, so that everyone can follow in the class :D
08:15	gtrak`	haha, I think GT just does whatever MIT wants to do, still annoyed about it. What's an intro to computing without SICP or HTDP?
08:16	bhenry	fliebel: ["clients" "edit" id] (delegate views/edit-client id)
08:16	mcstar	i wouldnt know i dont have a CS background(but i watched quite a bit of sicp)
08:16	bhenry	gives id to the edit-client handler
08:16	bhenry	fliebel: you had said if you pass a handler you don't have access to the title anymore
08:17	clgv	mcstar: didnt have huge problem despite I didnt know any lisp before
08:18	mcstar	good, than i might stand a chance to understand clojure
08:18	manutter	Heh, I'm coming from PHP
08:18	manutter	This is my first successful attempt at learning a LISP or LISP-like language
08:19	mcstar	i dont understand youre use of a special variable in a lexical context
08:19	mcstar	:D
08:21	gtrak`	manutter, are you still a fan of php?
08:22	manutter	was I ever?
08:22	gtrak`	haha, good answer
08:22	manutter	php's ok, pays the bills and stuff
08:22	manutter	I'd love to port our app to clojure tho
08:47	kzar	Is using java.io.File the best way to list files? Also what's the base path assumed for relative paths? Is it the root of my project?
08:48	bhenry	kzar, i think it's where you launch from
08:50	kzar	Oh, just managed to get it listing files and I think it's the root of the project - at least when I eval it interatively
08:55	clgv	kzar: with leiningen and lein repl it's where your project.clj is
08:55	khaliG	i'm looking for web hosting, is there any particular feature to keep an eye out for if I intend to run some sort of java/clojure webapps in future?
08:56	clgv	khaliG: vserver?
08:57	khaliG	clgv, okay
08:57	clgv	or are there specialized tomcat hosting offers?
08:58	khaliG	clgv, i should say i'm completely new to all of this :P
08:59	clgv	yeah well, you'll need some "java server" like tomcat or jetty where your clojure app is hosted.
08:59	khaliG	clgv, noted
09:24	ladicha	I'm having trouble using a third party closure library in my cljs project. I jar'd up the lib and put it in $CLOJURESCRIPT_HOME/lib, but I still get a compile error: required namespace never provided
09:24	ladicha	any tips on where I'm going wrong?
09:26	clgv	ladicha: checking if the namespace exists?
09:27	tsdh	If I want to release a jar at clojars, is it mandatory to use a groupId of org.clojars.tsdh?
09:27	joegallo	nope, pretty sure you can use whatever group id you want
09:28	tsdh	Ok, then I guess de.uni_koblenz is more appropriate for our, not mine lib.
09:29	ladicha	clgv: the js files in the jar do provide the namespace
09:29	tsdh	And what's the difference between artifactId and name?
09:30	clgv	tsdh: you are claiming that group-id with it, so maybe you could add your department as well in case someone else in your uni might develop clojure as well in the future ;)
09:31	ladicha	I get this specifically: ERROR - required "scottlogic.chart.Chart" namespace never provided
09:31	tsdh	clgv: Ok.
09:31	joegallo	for that matter, you should probably put the current department head's name in there, too. in case a new one comes in later and the policy changes.
09:31	ladicha	in my project I have a [scottlogic.chart.Chart :as SLChart]
09:31	joegallo	couldn't hurt to add the year, too.
09:32	joegallo	in stardate form.
09:32	ladicha	in my namespace require
09:33	ladicha	the scottlogic/chart/chart.js file in the jar contains: goog.provide('scottlogic.chart.Chart');
09:34	clgv	joegallo: lol then he could simply add his own name^^
09:35	tsdh	clgv: What do I specify for a non-released version? 5.0.0-SNAPSHOT?
09:35	tsdh	joegallo: Ups, I've meant clgv. :-)
09:36	ladicha	clgv: are there any special directives I need to compile against a third-party lib? Am I putting the jar in the right place?
09:43	clgv	ladicha: I don't know. I just did a smal example with it yet
09:50	fliebel	Does Ring pass the query string as a plain string??
09:50	lazybot	fliebel: Definitely not.
09:50	fliebel	Oh, okay lazybot.
09:51	ladicha	clgv: I just cloned the bitbucket, jar'd up the closure-charts/closure-charts/src/main/webapp/js/scottlogic directory as scottlogic
09:51	ladicha	scottlogic.jar
09:52	ladicha	and put the jar in $CLOJURESCRIPT_HOME/lib
09:53	bhenry	fliebel: it puts the items in :params in the request map. {:params {"key" "val" "key2" "val2"}}
09:53	bhenry	actually, that's wrap-params middleware that does that.
09:53	fliebel	bhenry: AH, I just found a middleware that claims to do that, but it already does that by default?
09:53	fliebel	ah
09:54	bhenry	fliebel: yeah sorry. i use that middle ware.
09:54	fliebel	ok, I'll add it as well
09:55	Fossi	fliebel: see, funky things like that ;)
09:56	Fossi	middlewares are a good topic on it's own
09:56	fliebel	hmhm
09:57	khaliG	is there a particular license preferred by the community?
09:59	clgv	the license clojure has itself?
10:00	m0wfo	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/epl-v10.html
10:01	khaliG	clgv, Eclipse one? i'm considering that one vs MIT
10:04	fliebel	How do I destructure nested maps? Like... {:params {body "body"}}
10:05	fliebel	AH, the other way around of course...
10:05	fliebel	I always get map destructuring the wrong way around.
10:09	clgv	fliebel: how does the resulting destructuring look like for your example?
10:09	fliebel	{{body "body" rev "rev"} :params}
10:10	raek	{{:strs [body rev]} :params} works too
10:10	bhenry	raek: whoa. is :strs like using :keys?
10:11	bhenry	but for string keys?
10:12	raek	exactly so.
10:12	bhenry	neato
10:12	TimMc	nice
10:12	raek	there is syms too for symbol keys
10:12	TimMc	But no nums, I hope.
10:13	TimMc	...considering how badly they behave as keys.
10:14	TimMc	Ha! I'm an idiot, that wouldn't make sense anyway.
10:14	raek	:nums doesn't make much sense since there is no symbol "with the same name" as a number
10:14	TimMc	(let [1 2] ...)
10:31	manutter	,(let [+ -] (+ 2 2))
10:31	clojurebot	0
10:31	manutter	muahaha
10:32	companion_cube	,(let [let +] (let 2 2))
10:32	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding>
10:32	companion_cube	oops
10:32	opqdonut	let is a built-in
10:33	mcstar	,(let [s] (dance))
10:33	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires an even number of forms in binding vector>
10:34	llasram	Oh, geez. Just now realized that slime lets you drill down to the source of the actual error when you throw an exception during lazy list evaluation
10:52	kzar	I'm trying to use the noir.options module to check which mode the server's running in. Problem is when I use noir.options/get or noir.options/dev-mode? I always get "Var noir.options/options is unbound.". The server's running and I've required noir.options as options, not sure what else to try.
10:53	bhenry	kzar: i forgot how i got around that. let me check in a minute.
10:55	manutter	kzar: options is set by a wrap-options middleware, maybe you need to put that in?
10:56	manutter	hmm, looks like it's setting that by default tho
10:59	manutter	kzar: try (server/start 8080 {})
11:01	kzar	manutter: That address was already in use so I did (noir.server/start 8081 {}), then (noir.options/dev-mode?) and got te same error
11:01	duncanm	haha, "Haskell is lazier than Ruby, but Rubyists are lazier than Haskeller."
11:01	manutter	hrm
11:03	manutter	kzar: you got the "Server started on port [8081]" message?
11:04	manutter	my next try would be (server/stop) (server/start 8081 {:mode :dev})
11:07	bhenry	kzar are you trying to evaluate (dev-mode?) in the repl?
11:07	manutter	ah, good question
11:07	manutter	server's going to be off running in a different thread with different bindings, yeah?
11:08	bhenry	yep
11:08	kzar	manutter: I was trying to eval it interactively in the source file and I tried typing it at the repl
11:09	manutter	yeah, I think bhenry has hit it then, you're having thread problems
11:11	manutter	I believe I've worked around that sort of issue by (1) def an atom in the main thread (2) have the other thread push a debugging message into the atom and (3) deref the atom from the main thread.
11:11	manutter	clumsy but quick-n-dirty
11:13	kzar	Hmm so I'm starting the server normally by doing (my-project-name/-main) and I need to access the options from repl + my other code.
11:13	kzar	Would that mean messing with server.clj or actually changing noir do you think?
11:15	manutter	Me being an irresponsible SOB I might try having my server-side code push the options var into some atom I def'ed from the REPL
11:15	mdeboard	you son of a bitch
11:15	mdeboard	how dare you
11:15	manutter	dunno if that would let you view/modify the options directly, but I'd try it
11:15	manutter	:)
11:15	manutter	Yeah, I've picked up a lot of bad habits writing PHP
11:16	mdeboard	:O
11:17	kzar	Is noir quite new?
11:17	srid	I think, yes.
11:17	manutter	yeah, relatively
11:18	srid	what other web 'frameworks' are there?
11:18	mdeboard	Compojure
11:18	mdeboard	is one
11:18	manutter	<plug>http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/</plug>
11:19	mdeboard	er
11:19	mdeboard	wow, django attack
11:19	mdeboard	html tag
11:24	KirinDave	mdeboard: Wanna change that to clojure at both? :)
11:24	KirinDave	mdeboard: Just start suggesting features that python is way to slow to provide. :D
11:25	mdeboard	KirinDave: We already have a few processes that could benefit from transitioning to a JVM FPL
11:26	mdeboard	massive XML processing for example
11:26	KirinDave	mdeboard: I'm working at a giant monolithic merb shop.
11:26	mdeboard	daily
11:26	mdeboard	merb?
11:26	mdeboard	something-ruby?
11:26	KirinDave	mdeboard: All I had to do was show that ONE box running a jvm version of the software is the equivalent of THREE boxes running ruby versions of the process. :D
11:26	KirinDave	Yeah
11:26	mdeboard	what's the `me` part?
11:28	mdeboard	Yeah I have entertained the thought of setting up a test bed to handle our XML processing with Clojure, esp. since I just took a huge employment offer with these guys. But I'm bogged down in some customer-facing feature implementations atm
11:28	mdeboard	fliebel: Yeah, agreed, was thinking the same
11:30	mattmitchell	Is it possible to inspect a namespace so I can see what vars/functions it contains?
11:30	KirinDave	I kinda miss working in clojure.
11:30	KirinDave	For some reason scala is an easier sell to my shop. :(
11:30	KirinDave	Haven't done much in clj recently.
11:32	mdeboard	KirinDave: "Scala has fewer parens"
11:32	clojurebot	the scala compiler \| is \| <reply> see: http://harrah.github.com/browse/samples/compiler/scala/tools/nsc/typechecker/ConstantFolder.scala.html#65760
11:32	mdeboard	also Scala's older and certainly more widely used
11:32	mdeboard	prob why
11:33	KirinDave	mdeboard: Probably
11:33	mdeboard	ya
11:33	mdeboard	I need to conspire more on getting clojure into play :P
11:33	mdeboard	you're right on that
11:33	KirinDave	mdeboard: Although I do confess that my time with haskell has made me like static typing more. As I work with scala more I think I feel like I fight its type system way too much.
11:33	KirinDave	Makes me pine for clojure.
11:34	mdeboard	haskell hurt my brain, I gave up
11:34	bhenry	mattmitchell: ##(doc ns-publics)
11:34	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-publics is bad!
11:34	mdeboard	that was a while ago though, first FPL I'd ever touched
11:34	mattmitchell	bhenry: cool thank you
11:38	gtrak	KirinDave, you like static typing, but scala's is so bad that you prefer dynamic typing?
11:40	kzar	So I'm still a bit bamboozled as to how I can look at the noir server's options. Been poking around noir's code but I don't even really understand the explanation to do with threads that you guys described to be honest
11:40	kzar	It seems to me that there must be a reasnoble way to check the options, otherwise what's the point of setting them?
11:41	KirinDave	gtrak: Scala isn't bad. Scala's schizo three-way culture clash is bad.
11:41	KirinDave	gtrak: You have the scalaz guys, the typesafe/akka guys, and the java purists.
11:41	KirinDave	You literally cannot write code that 2/3 of the scala community will not roll their eyes at. It's a very demoralizing code culture.
11:45	kzar	And the "Var noir.options/options is unbound." message confuses me, I don't see the distinction between that error and an "Unable to resolve symbol" one
11:46	clgv	kzar: the var is defined but has no value
11:47	bhenry	kzar: https://github.com/ibdknox/noir/blob/master/src/noir/options.clj#L5
11:48	kzar	bhenry: aha, gotya
11:48	kzar	(declare frebob) fredbob -> "Var fredbob is unbound."
11:58	manutter	kzar: what options do you need to look at? The options are just whatever you pass as the 3rd arg to server/start (as I understand it), so you control what they are.
11:59	manutter	sorry, 2nd arg, not 3rd
11:59	manutter	(server/start <port> <map-of-options>)
12:13	kzar	manutter: I need to see the mode variable so I know if it's production or not. I'm launching the app with foreman because I'm putting it up on heroku for now, not sure how it works
12:14	kzar	manutter: oh could I def a ref at the top of the server.clj and then have the -main function update that to contain the options so I can check them later?
12:15	manutter	kzar: I'd def an atom (ref would be overkill) but yeah, I think that would work
12:15	kzar	manutter: Gotya, OK I'll do it that way
12:15	kzar	Brill thanks, was stuck there
12:16	manutter	:)
12:47	belun	hi
12:47	belun	could anyone help with this error
12:47	belun	user=> (use 'midje.sweet)
12:47	belun	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: print-doc in this context, compiling:(clojure/contrib/ns_utils.clj:67)
12:47	manutter	belun: missing use/require?
12:48	belun	this is the actual settings
12:48	belun	(defproject play-with-midje "1.0"
12:48	belun	:description "Playground for messing around with Midje"
12:48	belun	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.3.0-beta3"]
12:48	belun	[org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.1.0"]]
12:48	belun	:dev-dependencies [[midje "1.3-alpha1"]
12:48	belun	[lein-midje "1.0.0"]])
12:48	manutter	,(doc print-doc)
12:48	clojurebot	excusez-moi
12:48	manutter	eh
12:48	belun	what do you mean? like i dont have the jars u mean ?
12:48	technomancy	belun: get rid of that ancient contrib version
12:49	manutter	no, you might be missing a (:require [something :as something]) in your (ns) declaration
12:49	technomancy	belun: also: use gisthub.com next time
12:49	belun	what is latest contrib
12:49	belun	use it for what u mean ?
12:49	belun	contrib ?
12:50	technomancy	use gist instead of pasting into the channel
12:51	bhenry	how can i turn an epoch time to a date with minimal imports?
12:51	bhenry	err scratch that. date to epoch
12:51	technomancy	clojurebot: where did contrib go is <reply>well... it's a long story: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
12:51	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
12:51	technomancy	belun: ^
12:52	technomancy	belun: depends on which specific parts you need
12:52	belun	like i know...
12:52	belun	let me just drop it :P
12:54	naeu	is there a way of determining whether a number is a long
12:55	naeu	long? doesn't seem to be available
12:55	belun	so i got same error without contrib
12:56	belun	git://gist.github.com/1219793.git
12:56	belun	might it be the beta version of midje ?
12:56	manutter	bhenry: clj-time ? https://github.com/getwoven/clj-time
12:57	belun	um...maybe i need the utils part of contrib
12:57	kjeldahl`	Anybody have any recent example of using clojure.java.jdbc; let's start simple - getting a connection. The usual "(def db {.... params}) ... (with-connection db (create-table :somename))" does not seem to actually connect to the database. Anybody?
12:57	kjeldahl`	.. with postgresql I should add.
12:57	technomancy	belun: do you need clojure 1.3? if you drop back to clojure 1.2.1 you can add back in contrib version 1.2.0
12:57	technomancy	that's going to be the path of least resistance
12:57	bhenry	manutter: thanks. turns out i'm just a dummy (.getTime date)
12:58	belun	that path i like
12:59	technomancy	belun: but try to avoid adding any additional usages of contrib so that it will be easier to upgrade in the future.
13:00	belun	wohoo
13:01	belun	worked to run a midje fact
13:01	belun	luv u
13:01	seancorfield	kjeldahl`: that should work fine - postgresql is one of the base test cases for that library
13:01	seancorfield	do you get any exceptions?
13:02	kjeldahl`	seancorfield: I get "no current database connection" when doing it.
13:02	kjeldahl`	seancorfield: None that I can see, but I'm not "try"'ing either, if I have to do that...
13:04	seancorfield	are you following a particular article / blog post?
13:04	hiredman	kjeldahl`: make sure you force your lazy-seq before leaving the scope of the connection
13:04	kjeldahl`	I've looked at several. They all simply use the hash/map and "with-connection"...
13:04	kjeldahl`	hireman: Ah, good idea.
13:04	seancorfield	ah, good point... that often gives a no connection exception!
13:05	seancorfield	having said that, for create-table it should "just work"
13:08	choffstein	Hey all. Is there a way to initialize a vector to be a certain size filled with a given initial value?
13:09	choffstein	For example, I have a non-deterministic input that I bind to the variable n. I then need to create a vector of length n with all 1s.
13:10	manutter	,(repeat 3 1)
13:10	clojurebot	(1 1 1)
13:11	choffstein	sweeeet. thanks
13:11	seancorfield	kjeldahl`: any success?
13:28	dnolen	erg, anybody encounter the problem where cljcs/build doesn't pull in the goog deps into the out dir ?
13:28	gtrak	,(vec (repeat 3 1))
13:28	clojurebot	[1 1 1]
13:29	gtrak	,(vec ( take 3 (cycle 1)))
13:29	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
13:29	gtrak	,(vec ( take (cycle 1) 3))
13:29	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
13:30	manutter	,(vec (take 3 (cycle constantly 1)))
13:30	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$cycle>
13:30	manutter	:P
13:30	amalloy	omg guys, ##(take 3 (cycle [1]))
13:30	bhenry	,(vec (take 3 (cycle [1])))
13:30	lazybot	⇒ (1 1 1)
13:30	clojurebot	[1 1 1]
13:30	gtrak	lol, how many ways are there to eff that up?
13:30	amalloy	or ##(take 3 (repeat 1))
13:30	manutter	,(vec (take 3 (cycle (repeatedly 1))))
13:30	lazybot	⇒ (1 1 1)
13:30	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
13:30	manutter	hrug
13:31	amalloy	manutter: ##(vec (take 3 (repeatedly (constantly 1)))) is a bit silly but looks like what you meant
13:31	lazybot	⇒ [1 1 1]
13:31	manutter	doh
13:31	manutter	,(vec (take 3 (cycle (constantly 1)))
13:31	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
13:31	manutter	,(vec (take 3 (cycle (constantly 1))))
13:31	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$constantly$fn__3684>
13:31	gtrak	like monkeys banging on pots
13:32	manutter	honestly, kids these days
13:43	kjeldahl`	Sorry, got pulled away. Yes, I now get an exception, which I think I can handle. Thank you for the pointers!
13:47	zerokarmaleft	new to swank here; is there a better way to reload changes to a source file to a slime repl than 1) C-x C-s 2) C-c C-l 3) C-c C-z?
13:47	amalloy	zerokarmaleft: C-c C-k does (1+2)
13:49	Vinzent	zerokarmaleft, I have save-and-compile bound to C-s
13:50	technomancy	C-c C-l forces a reload of all deps; C-c C-k just does the current file
13:50	amalloy	technomancy: no shit, really? i need to start using C-c C-l sometimes, then
13:50	zerokarmaleft	that's good to know
13:50	amalloy	that suddenly explains weird behavior
13:51	technomancy	amalloy: C-c C-, also invokes the reload behaviour
13:54	zerokarmaleft	guess i should dive into elisp and make a command for what i want
13:55	zerokarmaleft	basically save, don't prompt me, reload all deps, switch back to repl, gtfo my way i'm testing my small change
14:08	choffstein	Optimization question for everyone: I have a huge bottle neck in parsing a couple thousand strings to date objects using a SimpleDateFormat. There is no reason that all the parsing can't be done in parallel, but I it would seem that SimpleDateFormat is not thread safe -- and creating a new object for each parse seems like an allocation nightmare. Any ideas?
14:09	amalloy	split into chunks, create a parser for each chunk, and then pmap?
14:09	choffstein	that was my next thought
14:10	hiredman	depending on the format you could just write your own parser
14:13	choffstein	seems like overkill hiredman
14:14	Chousuke	(map send some-agents (make-enough-parser-functions) (partition data (/ data-size number-of-agents))) wonder if that would work :P
14:14	Chousuke	with a do-all of course
14:28	khaliG	choffstein, would it help to use clj-time (jodatime)?
14:28	srid	i'm not very familiar with github contrib workflow, so here's a question: must each pull request happen on a separate branch? i sent one the 4clojure repo under 'playground' branch. now if I want to work on another bug/feature, I must create a new branch?
14:28	choffstein	I don't know about clj-time. I'll check it out. Thanks for the suggestion.
14:29	amalloy	srid: no, but you should make sure your new commits are based on the upstream develop
14:30	joegallo	srid: yes, you really should
14:30	srid	amalloy: I noticed that when I make commits to the 'playground' branch, they automatically gets added to the pull request.
14:30	joegallo	correct
14:30	joegallo	pull requests are about branches, not commits
14:30	srid	this is why I refrain from making irrelevant commits (addressing a different bug) to this branch
14:30	khaliG	choffstein, its a nice library, i rely on it a lot. it wraps jodatime, which is a well designed java library that's written in a functional style (as well as these things can be)
14:30	amalloy	joegallo: i see what you mean. his pull request has been merged already, so he could reuse the same branch if he wanted
14:30	choffstein	looks very clean.
14:30	joegallo	ah, yes, true enough
14:31	joegallo	in that case, though, i would fetch the remote and base my work on the newly updated master
14:31	amalloy	but, srid, you should do something like $ git merge --ff-only dbyrne/4develop
14:31	joegallo	to have the remote merge commit and everything
14:31	amalloy	right
14:32	amalloy	s/4//
14:49	srid	amalloy: i should do that on my 'develop' branch, and then merge that to 'playground' right?
14:49	srid	or directly do it on playground?
14:50	amalloy	doesn't matter, i think
14:50	amalloy	i think it's easier to understand if you keep your develop up to date with ours, but that's more of your problem than mine :P
14:51	srid	i guess, i'll just keep my 'develop' clean (and merge from upstream often) and always work on branches made from it.
14:52	amalloy	that's a common pattern
14:52	icey	is there a version of contains? that tests for multiple keys?
14:53	icey	or should i just wrap multiple contains? with an and?
14:53	amalloy	(fn [m ks] (every? #(contains? m) ks))
14:53	amalloy	(fn [m ks] (every? #(contains? m %) ks))
14:53	sdbo	Can you define a default implementation of a protocol method, similar to a default implementation of a typeclass function in Haskell?
14:54	amalloy	(extend-protocol Foo Object (method [args] impl))
14:54	icey	amalloy: thanks.. that was fast - does that question get asked a lot?
14:54	amalloy	not as far as i'm aware, Icey
14:55	sdbo	amalloy: I tried that, but it's not working. It says there's no implementation. Let me make a simplest replication of the situation.
14:56	icey	amalloy: it does exactly what i need, thanks again :)
15:01	sdbo	This is the situation that I'd like to use, but throws errors
15:01	sdbo	amalloy: https://gist.github.com/1220157
15:01	amalloy	you can't partially extend a protocol - all or nothing
15:02	amalloy	if you want to be able to plug in different impls for different functions within a protocol, you need different protocols instead
15:03	amalloy	ie, Place implements AProtocol/say-hello by throwing an exception, rather than not implementing it at all
15:03	ordnungswidrig	…or when you implement only single function you can stick to multimethods
15:04	sdbo	Okay, that's how I thought it might work. I'm just used to Haskell typeclasses. I suppose it can be implemented by using multimethods, but that would involve a lot more complexity than I need. Thanks!
15:06	sdbo	Actually, what would be the Clojure idiom for a situation like this:
15:06	sdbo	I want to implement a protocol of probability distributions. The primary method is (prob [this obj])
15:07	sdbo	Knowing only that, I can implement conditional distributions by constricting the object space and renormalizing.
15:07	dnolen	man being able to print DOM localStorage as a Clojure map is pretty awesome. having access to the reader so stored Clojure data types print properly even more awesome
15:08	sdbo	But if the distribution is implemented underneath as a particular functional form, it might be much faster to return the answer directly.
15:08	sdbo	So there is a way to implement conditional-prob knowing only that an object implements DistributionProtocol
15:08	amalloy	sdbo: i'm solving the same problem (not for probability distributions, though) myself at the moment
15:09	amalloy	i'm writing protocols for "things i could do for you but maybe you can do faster" and extending those protocols to Object with default impls
15:09	sdbo	With type classes you can just define a default method (depending only on other protocol methods) which is overridden at extension time.
15:09	amalloy	it's more complicated than i'd like, but seems cleanest
15:09	sdbo	And there's a minimal complete definition of a protocol
15:10	sdbo	Yeah— that's what I thought the solution might be, but it seems a little heavy-handed
15:10	amalloy	agreed. call me back if you find something better :P
15:11	sdbo	Probably not without resorting to serious multimethod dispatching, haha
15:11	sdbo	but will do ;D
15:12	dnolen	sdbo: you can add default implementations by extending your protocol to Object.
15:12	amalloy	dnolen: right, but that extends the whole protocol. see his gist at https://gist.github.com/1220157
15:12	sdbo	dnolen: see https://gist.github.com/1220157 for where that fails.
15:14	sdbo	The idea is that a protocol could have a "minimal complete definition" (or multiple ones) and that anything outside of that definition is optional and can have defaults defined only on that minimal complete set.
15:18	sdbo	amalloy: so far the best thing I can think of is to create a defprotocol* and extend-protocol* which wrap the original macros, store default methods if they exist, and patches them in if they don't get defined. That doesn't seem so bad on the user end…
15:19	amalloy	sdbo: don't forget to write deftype, defrecord, and reify* :P
15:19	sdbo	Yeah, exactly… which is why I'm not even going to consider doing that until I need this functionality in at least 3 different places
15:20	sdbo	Right now it's just 2 ;P
15:21	dnolen	sdbo: I see, yeah protocols just weren't intended for this, and I don't think they ever will be.
15:21	dnolen	converting it multimethods is pretty simple tho, certainly not any more code.
15:24	sdbo	dnolen: I just assumed protocols mapped nicely to typeclasses, but it's not quite 1-1. Multimethods would work, but to be a general solution I'd really want to write a whole macrology to restrict the generality. I really like the idea of protocols/typeclasses and don't want to abandon it to the full generality of multi methods.
15:24	dnolen	sdbo: I'm not following, what generality of multimethod is problematic here?
15:29	sdbo	dnolen: Full control over the dispatch means there's more ways to do it. I don't need full generality, so I hazard to invoke it. It's not something specific, really.
15:29	dnolen	sdbo: just limit your dispatch to type, no one can change that later.
15:30	dnolen	sdbo: https://gist.github.com/1220237
15:31	sdbo	dnolen: I understand how to do it. I just don't think the complexity tradeoff is worth it yet.
15:31	dnolen	sdbo: ok, I just don't see where the "complexity" is here.
15:32	sdbo	dnolen: The gist is just a toy example, the real code is much different
15:32	dnolen	and by trying to make it work with protocols will just create complexity.
15:32	dnolen	since they don't map to the behavior you want
15:32	sdbo	dnolen: that's exactly it. I'm not going to anymore.
15:33	dnolen	gotcha
15:34	sdbo	dnolen: I implemented this before in Haskell. Typeclasses are ubiquitous and so it's natural to think and communicate using them, and they're powerful enough to easily unify counted frequency distributions and parametric probability distributions.
15:34	sdbo	But outside of math, those are actually two very different objects. I'm happy enough just treating them differently
15:38	robermann	hi was trying the amazing debug stuff from the JoY book on emacs + swank
15:39	robermann	but when I insert the (break) breakpoint call,
15:39	robermann	the REPL swank does not eval the variables
15:40	robermann	when running the same code in a plain REPL (lein repl) it works
15:41	robermann	Is there something peculiar on emacs/swank/slime when parsing a sub-repl? (I'm referring to pag 309ss of JoY book)
15:49	amalloy	srid: out of curiosity, what's the next thing you're working on?
15:53	cwb	How do I "re-export" vars imported into a namespace? That is, I want to put a/myvar into b so that I can then do b/myvar from c. I thought refer (use) would achieve this but no luck..
15:53	hiredman	don't do that
15:53	cwb	All right, what should I do instead?
15:54	joegallo	defalias or https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin
15:54	joegallo	but yeah, reconsider whether that's as great an idea as it appears at first
15:56	joegallo	i guess the argument would be that you should just define things where they are supposed to end up
15:56	joegallo	and that big namespaces aren't that bad
15:56	joegallo	or something along those lines
15:56	naeu	out of interest, is anyone aware of any macro changes between 1.2 and 1.3?
15:56	hiredman	cwb: write tiers namespace a provides functionality that b relies on, and namespace b provides functionality c relies on
15:59	cwb	joegallo, hiredman: I'm defining a protocol and multimethods in b, extending them in d,e, etc. All of b,d,e, etc. are required by a, so that I can import a from c and ensure the multimethod has been loaded with all methods. Is there a neater way of doing that (keeping related logic in the same module).
15:59	hiredman	if c requires b and a it should require both
16:00	hiredman	(ns a (:require b d e))
16:15	srid	clojure regex supports named groups? just wondering how to concisely get these matches into an array map.
16:15	srid	https://gist.github.com/1220343
16:22	nickmbailey	any clojure contrib committers around
16:30	cwb	hiredman: The problem is that I'd like c to only know about a, not b,d,e.
16:43	cemerick	nickmbailey: what's up?
16:45	nickmbailey	so i created a couple jira tickets for the jmx contrib library in the main clojure-contrib jira project, seems like maybe each contrib project is getting its own jira project though?
16:45	nickmbailey	cemerick: ^
16:45	nickmbailey	should i ping someone for making a java.jmx jira project or something?
16:46	cemerick	nickmbailey: Yes, send a mail to the clojure list (or the clojure-dev list if you can).
16:46	nickmbailey	k, will do
16:46	cemerick	nickmbailey: I'd just delete those tickets you added to the legacy clojure-contrib JIRA tho.
16:47	cemerick	I'd create the jmx project in JIRA for you, but I don't own it :-)
16:48	nickmbailey	well if i get someone to create it i can just move the tickets which would be nicer than recreating them
16:48	cemerick	true
16:49	jli	Clojure doesn't use this for hotswapping code, does it? http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/jpda/enhancements.html
16:49	cemerick	no
16:50	cemerick	Clojure just generates and loads bytecode corresponding to new implementing classes.
16:58	amalloy	srid: zipmap would be my choice, though you might also see if https://github.com/cgrand/regex/ has the features you want
16:58	amalloy	(from the wiki, it looks like it does)
17:01	amalloy	naeu: i don't think so
17:02	naeu	amalloy: it might not be macros per se, but with 1.3 one of my macros is doing bad things which it doesn't do with 1.2
17:02	naeu	i'm finding it very hard to track down what's going wrong
17:02	dnolen	naeu: what error are you getting?
17:03	naeu	something lame: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentVector
17:04	naeu	I'm not entirely sure how to reduce the problem to something communicable
17:04	naeu	it could very well just be me doing something abusively bad with macros which somehow managed to work with 1.2 but 1.3 is complaining about
17:04	raek	probably a word too much or too less next to a parameter list
17:05	raek	,(let foo [x 1] x)
17:05	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding>
17:05	naeu	raek: how would you guess that?
17:05	raek	,(fn foo foo [x 1] x)
17:05	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Symbol>
17:05	TimMc	,(let 'foo [x 1] x)
17:05	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding>
17:06	TimMc	naeu: Is it occurring at macro expansion time or at call time?
17:06	raek	naeu: well, I have seen such exceptions before from the compiler
17:06	naeu	TimMc: call time
17:06	dnolen	naeu: should be pretty easy to isolate then, you should have a precise line number.
17:07	naeu	dnolen: how would I find that line number?
17:07	dnolen	naeu: the stacktrace.
17:08	dnolen	naeu: this sounds like a bug related to expanding to a fn, or protocol, deftype/record
17:08	naeu	dnolen: I just see: 18: overtone.sc.cgen$eval10533.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE)
17:08	dnolen	a symbol where there should be a vector
17:09	naeu	dnolen: I wonder why 1.3 would pick it up and not 1.2
17:09	dnolen	naeu: hard to say. but I'm sure it will turn out to be something simple.
17:09	naeu	dnolen: that's usually the case with these things ;-)
17:10	naeu	dnolen: so how would you get the line number from the stacktrace
17:10	naeu	I'm getting that trace from an emacs buffer
17:10	naeu	would I be better off generating it through some other way?
17:10	dnolen	naeu: you said the error is at call time
17:10	amalloy	easiest way: gist the stacktrace and tell people you need help understanding it
17:10	naeu	dnolen: yep, emacs throws that buffer at call time
17:11	naeu	here's the stacktrace: https://gist.github.com/1220495
17:11	naeu	"people, I need help understanding it!" :-)
17:13	dnolen	naeu: if this at call time then what is the smallest form that causes the problem.
17:13	dnolen	naeu: what is the macroexpansion?
17:13	naeu	dnolen: it's a bit of a beast, hold on...
17:13	dnolen	naeu: tho it's clear here its not a call time error, it's a compile time error
17:14	naeu	dnolen: ok, but emacs throws that buffer up when I try and 'call' the fn
17:14	naeu	and not when I use the macro to generate the fn
17:19	naeu	dnolen: I've updated the gist to include the macroexpansion (which I've simplified a little)
17:20	amalloy	naeu: 1.3 sees the exception sooner because it checks for primitive typehints on arglists, i suspect
17:20	naeu	amalloy: 1.2 never even complained...
17:21	amalloy	i'm just saying, i'm looking at the compiler, the line where the stacktrace tries to cast, and it's looking through the arglists to see if there's a primitive hint
17:22	naeu	amalloy: oh cool :-)
17:23	naeu	my java-fu is sadly weak - I really should start reading some one day
17:24	naeu	amalloy: how do you know where in the stacktrace to look?
17:24	amalloy	well, i just looked at the topmost line
17:24	amalloy	since that's the immediate cause
17:25	naeu	ah, yes, makes sense
17:25	hugod	that error normally comes from passing a symbol to something that is being destructured as a vector
17:25	naeu	I just tend to skip to the clojure bit - perhaps I should stop doing that
17:25	amalloy	hugod: then you usually get nth not supported
17:25	dnolen	naeu: your source looks strange are you def'ing inside a vector?
17:26	amalloy	looking at the stacktrace, it seems like the compiler is trying to parse something like (fn [foo] (bar ...)), and when it looks up the global variable bar it sees that its arglists are illegal in some way
17:26	naeu	dnolen: I'm looking at exactly that right now trying to figure out why I'm def'ing inside a vec
17:31	naeu	dnolen: it looks like I was tryign to create a list of defs to def, but never actually got round to unwrapping it
17:31	naeu	and yet it seemed to work with 1.2 like that
17:31	dnolen	naeu: so is it fixed now?
17:31	naeu	not yet
17:32	naeu	going to stick it in a do and see what happens
17:37	naeu	hmm, there seems to be an issue with my use of `(with-meta c-name metadata)`
17:37	naeu	where c-name is a symbol and metadata is a map
17:37	naeu	I'm using that in a macro
17:38	naeu	and binding it to default-c-name in a let statement
17:38	naeu	next, I do the following: `(def ~default-c-name ~default-cgen)`
17:39	naeu	~default-c-name doesn't seem to resolve to a symbol
17:39	clojurebot	a symbol is just a variable name
17:40	amalloy	naeu: link to where your with-meta is?
17:40	naeu	amalloy: you mean the source code?
17:40	amalloy	yeah
17:41	naeu	https://github.com/overtone/overtone/blob/master/src/overtone/sc/cgen.clj#L176
17:45	amalloy	naeu: sadly nothing stands out as crazy, as long as none of those cgens depend on each other
17:45	amalloy	i've had an issue before where a name's metadata gets eval'd more than i expected, but that doesn't seem to be your issue
17:46	raek	hrm, shouldn't there be a 'do' around all those defs?
17:46	naeu	when you say "cgens depend on each other" you mean the possibility that one def might invoke the other and visa versa?
17:46	amalloy	raek: well, he's putting them in a vector, which is silly but should work if they're not interdependent
17:46	naeu	raek: yup, there is now in my local source :-)
17:46	raek	to me it looks like the macro generates something like [(def ...) ((def ...) (def ...) (def ...))]
17:47	amalloy	raek: yeah, it does do that, which in fact is crazy :)
17:47	naeu	raek: yeah, it was, now it's (do (def..) (def …))
17:47	raek	that looks better :)
17:48	naeu	but that doesn't fix the exception ;-)
17:48	naeu	just tidies things up
17:48	raek	well, a def is an expression, so it's valid syntax :)
17:48	amalloy	naeu: btw, (list* `do def1 (for ...)) is the easiest way to get that, imo. i guess `(do ~def1 ~@(for...)) works too, but it seems more confusing
17:48	raek	and a def returns a var, which implemets IFn
17:50	naeu	amalloy: good tip
17:50	naeu	thanks
17:56	Zolrath	I'm having an issue with Noir/CongoMongo in that I have a page which fetches entries from the MongoDB but it caches the values the first run.
18:01	Zolrath	In the defpage it calls a function that calls (fetch :jobs) and inserts html using the data but apparently that is not the right way to go about this.
18:01	naeu	amalloy: so it appears to be the with-meta lines which are blowing up
18:01	srid	is there a primitive to remove nil/false from a collection?
18:02	amalloy	filter
18:02	naeu	amalloy: everything works now after I removed those specific lines
18:04	srid	(filter #(%) (map f records))
18:04	naeu	srid: (filter identity (map f records))
18:05	srid	that's same as using #(not (nil? %)) as pred, I hope
18:06	amalloy	no; it's the same as using #(not (boolean %))
18:07	amalloy	er...that's the opposite
18:07	amalloy	my point is just that it removes false as well as nil
18:07	naeu	amalloy: I think that's what srid wanted?
18:08	amalloy	yes, which is why i'm puzzled that he hopes it's the same as something that obviously isn't what he wanted
18:11	srid	checking for nil alone is fine.
18:11	srid	can `(println (filter ...))` ever raise NullPointerException?
18:12	srid	... after printing a single (
18:12	srid	yes, lazy seqs
18:13	srid	so the nullpointer must have happened inside the filter's pred, even though clojure traceback points to the println location.
18:14	amalloy	it doesn't even have to happen in the filter pred
18:15	amalloy	&(println (filter identity (map #(.size %) [nil nil])))
18:15	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
18:16	srid	the culprint was zipmap ignoring the last key because re-matches did not include the last group (for one log record).
18:33	srid	I need the result of a cond test expr in the result expr; is there a primitive function for that? or do I have to reimplement cond?
18:34	srid	the cond test expr in question doesn't always return true/false - they may return complex data structures too
18:34	srid	i want to bind the data structures for use in the result expr.
18:36	nickmbailey	perhaps you just want a few if-lets rather than cond?
18:36	nickmbailey	i don't think there is a cond-let
18:37	llasram	There is in clojure.contrib.cond, but it looks... odd. I'm having difficulty parsing what it does, other than "not what I'd think"
18:40	llasram	Oh, I see. Interesting. I think it might do what srid wants.
18:40	llasram	It just seems a little weird because you specify a single binding form to use for all the text/expr pairs
18:41	nickmbailey	yeah something like '(cond-let [x] false nil true x)'
18:42	srid	nickmbailey: if-let's are not exclusive, unless you nest them which is ugly.
18:42	nickmbailey	yeah but cond-let seems to do exactly what you need
18:43	srid	seems so; (cond-let [x] (+ 2 3) (* x 2))
18:44	srid	the first I read the cond-let doc in clojuredocs.com it was confusing, then later I understood.
18:45	llasram	I think the example needs a little love... At the very least, the formatting doesn't intuitively express the relationship between the forms
18:50	srid	`map` is annoying. i can't easily debug errors in its predicate, because clojure's traceback doesn't include line number information for the stack after the call to predicate.
18:50	srid	that's because map returns lazyseq
18:51	nickmbailey	yeah its not exactly clear in that example that '[5 2 3]' is the test
18:51	llasram	nickmbailey: updated -- hopefully better now :-)
18:51	srid	and primitives like `(count a-lazy-seq)` fail without telling which line the error occured
18:51	llasram	srid: What dev env are you using?
18:51	srid	emacs - cake swank
18:51	srid	i type C-c C-k and then invoke my main function in REPL
18:51	llasram	srid: Cool! I literally just today learned that you can drill down when you get lazy seq errors
18:52	srid	how do you drill down?
18:52	llasram	Hit 1 in the exception buffer
18:54	llasram	I was so excited when I found that out, because debugging lazy seqs had been a pain in my ass too
18:55	llasram	anyway, I'm off -- gl
19:21	srid	hit 1 and?
19:22	srid	exception buffer now shows "0 1" to qui slime or abort slime.
19:22	amalloy	srid: but now it has a new stacktrace
19:22	srid	ah yes.
19:24	amalloy	gfredericks: meh. it's just showing the next "Caused By" exception you'd see in a real stacktrace
19:24	gfredericks	oh okay
19:24	gfredericks	good
19:24	gfredericks	that'll make it easier for me to keep sitting in my corner over here telling myself that emacs isn't all that cool
19:30	srid	in the 'caused by' exception, I see nullpointerexception at -- (if-let [attr (typ record)]
19:30	mdeboard	computers are hard
19:30	srid	what could have happened? if it the source was in the 'typ' function, then i'm surprised that the 'caused by' exception didn't show it (the line no)
19:30	mdeboard	for me*
19:34	srid	'typ' was null. (last entry of loop)
19:35	amalloy	if-let is a macro - you can lose line metadata information when macros enter the picture
20:49	devn	hm, is there a way to have a clojurescript node repl?
20:50	devn	as in: once I require [cljs.nodejs :as node], I get access to node/require, etc. in script/repljs
20:50	devn	methinks I might need to start from script/repl instead
20:52	srid	amalloy: ok. still, pringin which variable was 'null' would have been more useful than a mere "nullpointerexception". then again, i don't know much of clojure/java internals to judge if that is doable.
20:52	srid	*printing
20:52	amalloy	not really, no
20:53	srid	no - to what?
21:00	alandipert	i think ataggart is around there, and i imagine he will be coming
21:03	srid	best to go to vancouver clojure group (sept 20) and find out http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Clojure/
21:12	hiredman	,(/ 128 8)
21:12	clojurebot	16
21:13	tomoj	I see that method annotations work with reify, but is there no way to give a class annotation?
21:20	cemerick	tomoj: I don't believe so; there's no class/type name to hang metadata off of in that case.
21:24	tomoj	shucks
21:24	cemerick	a deftype will bring you home
21:24	tomoj	got that working, but what I want is anonymous
21:24	tomoj	though
21:25	cemerick	I wouldn't put money on that happening. :-)
21:25	tomoj	I was going to replace them all with a single gen-class, can just replace them all with a single deftype
21:28	redinger	srid: Even better, go to the vancouver meet up and tell them all to attend the conj. :)
21:49	TheBusby	can you have multiple namespaces in a single file and have them reference each other?
21:58	alandipert	TheBusby: yes, but in a file like (ns a) (ns b) stuff in ns a doesn't know about ns b
21:59	TheBusby	alandipert: Would "ns b" be able to require/user from "ns a" ?
21:59	alandipert	TheBusby: yes
22:02	TheBusby	alandipert: Hmm, trying a simple example I get "java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate foo/a__init.class or foo/a.clj on classpath"
22:03	alandipert	TheBusby: how are you compiling?
22:03	TheBusby	alandipert: via slime and the command line
22:04	TheBusby	alandipert: Here is the sample code I was using to test, http://pastie.org/2540810
22:04	alandipert	oh, whoops - i was mistaken. 'require' needs a file
22:05	TheBusby	er, and 'use' ?
22:05	TheBusby	probably the same, is there another way to access it though?
22:06	alandipert	TheBusby: http://pastie.org/2540826
22:07	TheBusby	alandipert: doh, much thanks!
22:08	alandipert	np, happy computing!
22:13	bpr	Using definterface, can you specify parameterized method parameters (ie. Map<String, String>)?
22:15	bpr	for example i'd like to do something like (definterface IAvailableResourcesCallback (onResources [^Map<String,String> m])) ; sorry for the horrid syntax...
22:17	amalloy	bpr: no
22:17	bpr	amalloy: that doesn't surpise. I had to ask though
22:27	srid	are their presentations/articles detailing why Heroku chose Clojure (over ruby/python) for implementing some of its components (eg: pulse)?
22:35	devn	srid: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/07/11/heroku_does_clojure_and_beyond/
22:37	devn	srid: Also, it looks like Mark McGranaghan is going to be giving a talk at Clojure/conj 2011 about Pulse: http://lanyrd.com/2011/clojure-conj/shhfd/
22:37	devn	srid: (There's an abstract there that might give a bit more insight)
22:39	srid	devn: mark's talk is how I came to know about pulse (in fact, i was just starting today at work to do some log analysis in clojure)
22:41	srid	devn: but as for the theregister article, the rationale behind choosing clojure for pulse is just intuition (gut sense, hip, feels right)?
22:42	srid	he says "Clojure is suited to building application components that must be eminently predictable" - i don't even know what that means. what is 'eminently predicable'?
22:44	dhm	srid: i'd read it as another way of saying "functional"
22:45	srid	that raises the question - how are clojure-based components 'eminently/more functional' than others (ruby/python).
22:45	zippy314	are folks talking about clojurescript on this channel or is there a better place?
22:45	redinger	zippy314: This is the ClojureScript channel, too.
22:46	zippy314	kewl. Just digging into now. Checking out the twitterbuzz example. Anybody know of any other good sample clojurescript/closure apps out there to learn from?
22:48	amalloy	srid: they don't mutate
22:48	amalloy	zippy314: pacman!
22:48	amalloy	$google github pacman clojure
22:48	lazybot	[Twitter / @btbytes/clojure] http://twitter.com/btbytes/clojure
22:48	amalloy	...
22:48	srid	heh
22:49	amalloy	http://mjg123.github.com/pacman/pacman.html
22:49	srid	zippy314: https://github.com/heroku/leech is written in clojurescript
23:02	bpr``	is there a way to declare abstract classes in clojure? I know it's very non-idiomatic, but I'm creating a Java-interop interface...
23:05	brehaut	bpr``: that sounds like the realm of AOT compilation
23:07	brehaut	bpr``: http://clojure.org/compilation
23:08	brehaut	no idea if it actually supports defining abstract classes specifically
23:13	bpr``	this is my first major chunk of java-interop where I'm exposing clojure functionality to Java code. So I'm looking for all the advice I can get haha. This is especially true because I'm not really a Java dev. I come from the dynamic language world lol
23:13	bpr``	dynamic type*
23:13	zippy314	wow. That pacman link really fries safari!
23:21	icey	i am writing a small noir example app for practice and i've got a couple of functions that don't feel idiomatic to me. anyone feel like taking a peek?
23:21	icey	https://github.com/pmn/noir-messageboard/blob/master/src/noir_messageboard/utils/utils.clj
23:22	icey	the human-date function's let section looks gross to me
23:22	icey	the -> didn't really help much
23:26	brehaut	icey. where does 'markdown' come from? (in markdownify)
23:26	icey	brehaut: markdownj
23:26	brehaut	oh. im out of practise at reading that form of method call
23:27	icey	brehaut: ah, is there a preferred method?
23:27	icey	err, form
23:27	brehaut	(.markdown mdp …)
23:27	brehaut	i think
23:28	brehaut	http://clojure.org/java_interop
23:28	brehaut	yeah
23:29	icey	brehaut: sweet, thanks. i'll give it a whirl
23:30	alandipert	the naked dot form is handy in macros
23:32	brehaut	icey: contains-all is kinda funny
23:32	brehaut	icey: you only need it if your map might contain false or nil
23:40	brehaut	icey: human-date is ok. the only actual gross part is that its not pure functional…
23:41	icey	brehaut: i'm trying to recall the exact reason i went the contains-all route
23:42	brehaut	icey: well the alternative is just to use every? with the map as the function. your function is fine if you think there is a chance that the value of one of the key is nil or false
23:43	icey	brehaut: yeah, i'm using it on a page with 2 possible entry points and I may get different data between them
23:44	icey	brehaut: i'm using it here https://github.com/pmn/noir-messageboard/blob/master/src/noir_messageboard/views/post.clj around like 86 -
23:44	brehaut	icey: if you click the line numbers, gh updates the url
23:44	icey	err, line 86
23:45	icey	sweet, i never knew that
23:45	icey	thanks
23:47	icey	i think every? will work here
23:49	alandipert	i'd probly do (clojure.set/subset? (set ks) m) there
23:49	brehaut	alandipert: thats nice
23:50	amalloy	that's not going to work, is it? it will seq m, and look at the k/v pairs
23:50	alandipert	sets are degenerate maps
23:50	amalloy	yes
23:50	brehaut	huh. subset? just uses every under the hood anyway
23:51	brehaut	(in 1.2 anyway)
23:51	amalloy	i see. i guess it works if you pass the args in that order
23:51	amalloy	i think i was thinking of intersection or something
23:52	alandipert	(subset? ks m) also works, but for reasons unknown to me
23:52	amalloy	alandipert: the first arg just gets seq'd
23:53	brehaut	alandipert: it doesnt treat keys as a set
23:53	amalloy	since you have to look at all of them anyway
23:53	alandipert	ah, cool
23:55	alandipert	well, i'm outs. looking forward to seeing peeps at strangeloop!
23:55	icey	alandipert: thanks for the advice - i'm reading up on subset right now
23:56	alandipert	np, happy clojuring