#clojure – 2011-09-06

2011-09-06

00:02	mindbender1	please why do I keep getting this error message on ccw with eclipse on my first hello.clj file
00:02	mindbender1	=> (hello "you")
00:02	mindbender1	#<CompilerException java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: hello in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)>
00:07	mindbender1	please help
00:07	user317	so is hello a symbol?
00:09	seancorfield_	mindbender1: did you load the file into the REPL and then switch the REPL to that namespace? (two steps)
00:12	user317	whats the difference between using :use in your namespace and calling use, ie (use 'lamina.core) seems to work but :use 'lamina.core doesn't
00:12	user317	:use in your namespace for files in your project, and (use <lib>) for external deps?
00:13	brehaut	user317: (use …) is mostly only useful in the repl, and (:use …) in your ns for project specific libs or deps
00:19	user317	so (ns myns :use 'foobar) is the same as (ns myns); (use 'foobar)?
00:20	brehaut	(ns myns (:use foobar)) is
00:21	michaelr525	hey
00:21	brehaut	or perhaps (ns myns (:use [foobar]))
00:21	brehaut	i forget if the vector is optional on :use forms
00:23	brehaut	yeah the vector should be optional according to (doc require)
00:23	mindbender1	seancorfield_: the tutorial I was following didn't point that out please can you point out the directions for me
01:05	user317	anyway to get around leins slow startup time? when i run it in interactive mode it hangs on any compiler errors
01:36	user317_	how do i set a java class's field name? i am new to java, does it have automatic getter/setter functions for members?
01:56	tomoj	&(->> #(rand) (repeatedly 2) #() (repeatedly 3))
01:56	lazybot	⇒ ((0.19066336225889235 0.46004763443354735) (0.40565071223177274 0.48848509803591755) (0.20556681440024904 0.037729850401373))
01:56	tomoj	:/
01:57	pmbauer	user317_: no automatic setters.
01:57	pmbauer	If there is method "setFoo" on object of class Bar, you can call it: (.setFoo myBar aFoo)
03:17	robermann	ciao muffetta :)
03:24	michaelr525	hello!
03:31	khaliG	hi michaelr525
03:34	humourous	is it possible to view the source of multimethods through the repl?
03:37	ibdknox	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2964419
03:37	ibdknox	this keeps coming up
03:38	khaliG	ibdknox, why does it?
03:39	ibdknox	My argument would be that no one is purely focused on improving the overall experience of using Clojure
03:39	ibdknox	clojure/core is improving the language and trying to expand its reach
03:41	ibdknox	but ClojureScript is perfect example of not focusing on the experience of using the language
03:43	ibdknox	khaliG: so people can't get started or they get stuck
03:50	khaliG	ibdknox, you're referring to the "Set up" point in the article?
03:50	ibdknox	khaliG: the two main points people bring up about clojure are errors and documentation
03:51	ibdknox	the last bay area clojure group was basically a long rant about those two things
03:52	ibdknox	every article talks about those two issues when going over the practicality of clojure
03:52	khaliG	ibdknox, i'm fairly new to clojure myself and can relate to that somewhat - but I think the stacktraces aren't too bad, you get good at reading them
03:52	ibdknox	khaliG: I agree, but you shouldn't have to ;)
03:54	khaliG	ibdknox, has someone articulated how they should be technically better?
03:55	ibdknox	khaliG: it's a well known problem that has been discussed a great deal
03:56	khaliG	ibdknox, ah sorry i'm not familiar with those exchanges - would be interesting to see how they propose things need to be improved
03:56	ibdknox	khaliG: sorry, that wasn't meant to be dismissive at all, I was just saying that it's something that the "right people" know about :)
03:57	ibdknox	and solutions have been discussed
03:57	khaliG	gotcha
03:57	pyr	morning
03:58	ibdknox	It comes down to someone needing to own the experience of writing a clojure app from end to end
04:09	thorwil	hmm, i didn't see the documentation to be that lacking. however, error messages are about the only thing where i see clojure as a step down from python
04:09	ibdknox	thorwil: some of the documentation is pretty obtuse if you don't already have a firm grasp of functional programming
04:10	ibdknox	still
04:10	ibdknox	compare clojure.org to ruby-lang.org
04:10	ibdknox	documentation isn't just API docs, it's also things like "Ruby in twenty minutes..."
04:11	thorwil	ice brick vs campfire :)
04:12	khaliG	it does lead to the question whether clojure is suitable as a first language? maybe it isnt?
04:12	ibdknox	khaliG: I don't buy that :)
04:12	TheMoonMaster	I wouldn't give someone clojure as their first language. :P
04:14	ordnungswidrig1	I'd recommend scheme as a first language. the tight integration with java is distracting.
04:14	TheMoonMaster	Yeah, my main thought would be Java interop confusing them.
04:14	ibdknox	eh, to just start programming, you don't need any of the Java stuff
04:14	ibdknox	when you start with python
04:15	ibdknox	or any other language, you rarely do things that interact with the host
04:15	ordnungswidrig1	ibdknox: but java shines through everywhere in clojure. e.g. at stack traces, error messages and so on
04:15	ordnungswidrig1	I think scheme would be nicer
04:15	TheMoonMaster	I'd throw Ruby or Python at someone interested in general programming.
04:15	ibdknox	ordnungswidrig1: those are solvable problems I think, but yes, in its current state
04:16	thorwil	i guess it's hard to compete with racket for a scheme and an introduction to programming
04:16	ordnungswidrig1	ibdknox: yes, when there is cinc, then clojure will be nicer as a first lang
04:17	ibdknox	anyways guys, I've ranted enough for one night :)
04:17	ibdknox	g'nite!
04:17	khaliG	ibdknox, night
04:19	khaliG	ordnungswidrig1, so would you say you need to know Java first?
04:19	ordnungswidrig1	khaliG: not, necessarily
05:04	michaelr525	hey wunki
05:04	michaelr525	why are you connecting from amazon machine?
05:11	wunki	michaelr525: I installed a bouncer on the free instance you can get from AWS
05:18	michaelr525	cool
05:18	michaelr525	free instance..
05:18	michaelr525	where is that?
05:24	wunki	michaelr525: you get one free EC2 micro instance when you sign up for AWS
05:34	bendlas	Good day, folks!
05:35	bendlas	I just wondered: Is there a way to intern the same Var in two different namespaces?
05:35	bendlas	i.e. is there a way to intern an existing var object in a namespace?
05:42	raek	bendlas: don't think so, but you can always refer the var
05:43	raek	but that doen't allow other namespace to refer the refered var
05:45	bendlas	raek: that would have been my use case
05:45	bendlas	a transitional aid in refactoring
05:45	bendlas	but I can imagine, that it would open the door to too much dynamic-binding wierdness
05:46	bendlas	thanks, anyway
05:47	raek	yeah, something like that would make it possible to rename a namespace and keep the old one for backward compatibility
05:48	raek	but afaik there is no obvious way to do that
05:50	raek	there is 'immigrate' from old contrib, but it creates new vars. so if you update vars in the one namespace that change won't propagate into the other
05:50	bendlas	ack
05:51	bendlas	the real solution will be a proper refactoring tool
05:53	mindbender1	greetings
06:29	clgv	Is there already a hierachical clustering algorithm implemented in clojure? I didn't find anything in incanter.
06:34	mindbender1
06:56	scottj	clgv: maybe infer
06:56	clgv	scottj: which lib is that?
06:57	clgv	https://github.com/getwoven/infer?
06:57	clojurebot	eg, https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging is the new version of clojure.contrib.logging
06:58	scottj	clgv: yeah
07:04	wunki	can someone help me how to supply a function with extra parameters when a condition is met. For example: https://gist.github.com/5075886377eb27feaeed
07:04	wunki	thus, if condition x, also add these parameters to the function call.
07:05	ordnungswidrig1	(apply f arg1 arg2 arg3 (if (condition [arg4 arg5] []))
07:06	ordnungswidrig1	wunki: sth like that?
07:08	wunki	ordnungswidrig1: let me try that
07:09	wunki	ordnungswidrig1: passing [] to the function causes it crash, wrong amount of arguments
07:09	kzar	I've messed up the recursion in this little function somehow, any ideas? http://paste.lisp.org/display/124505 (It's running off forever even if I do (take 5...))
07:09	wunki	I think I need an if, or else do nothing, don't return nil also
07:11	Chousuke	kzar: that lazy-seq is pointless. recur is not lazy.
07:11	ordnungswidrig	wunki: you'll need sth like (apply validate letter [:title...] ... [:body...] (if (:reply letty) [[:reply objectid?...] [:reply...]] []))
07:13	kzar	Chousuke: Ah right, I'll go read about lazy-seq methinks
07:14	Chousuke	(defn reductions [f init coll] (lazy-seq (let [res (f init (first coll))] (cons res (reductions f res (rest coll))))))
07:15	Chousuke	hm, that probably fails at the end of the reductions
07:15	Chousuke	your job to fix it :)
07:16	Chousuke	the point being, usually you don't want to use recur if you want a lazy seq
07:17	Chousuke	you just use regular recursion, which is made non-stack-growing by the laziness of lazy-seq
07:39	wunki	ordnungswidrig: I wasn't able to make it work.
07:40	ordnungswidrig	wunki: gist your code
07:40	wunki	https://gist.github.com/2c86bec2f2249d69c4ed
07:40	wunki	I stripped apply again, to start clean
07:42	ordnungswidrig	wunki: https://gist.github.com/a9da42cfda88499f47f6
07:42	ordnungswidrig	wunki: this should work
07:42	wunki	ordnungswidrig: trying it right now
07:43	ordnungswidrig	,(apply println :foo :bar (if true [[:baz :qux]] []))
07:43	clojurebot	:foo :bar [:baz :qux]
07:51	wunki	ordnungswidrig: checks don't seem to work anymore. I'm now always getting `null` returned
07:59	mccraig	are there functions for manipulating file-paths anywhere in core/contrib : something like ruby's File.dir/basename/dirname/expand_path/join ?
07:59	kzar	Chousuke: Gotya, got it working :) http://paste.lisp.org/display/124505#1
08:05	raek	mccraig: clojure.java.io/file
08:06	raek	if you pass it multiple string or File arguments, it will join them with the serparator of the platorm
08:06	raek	it returns a java.io.File instance, which has methods for more advanced stuff
08:07	mccraig	raek: ah, ok… and then use e.g java.io.File.getCanonicalPath for expand_path
08:07	raek	yeah
08:07	mccraig	raek: thx
08:07	raek	the file function basically just wraps the constructor of File, which is a pain to use
08:08	raek	(you can only join two segments)
08:42	wunki	ordnungswidrig: excuse me, it was some other code that caused the error. Thank you for your help, it worked!
08:43	ordnungswidrig	wunki: I'm glad I could help
08:53	khaliG	i've got a png image i use as an icon - is there a clojury way of referring to it from code?
08:55	ordnungswidrig	khaliG: you can load it from the class path using getResourceAsStream
08:56	khaliG	ordnungswidrig, so where shall i store it in my lein project - in src? or somewhere else?
08:56	raek	khaliG: put it on the classpath (e.g. in resources/, which leiningen adds to the classpath automatically) and use clojure.java.io/resource to get a handle to it
08:56	raek	src/ works too, but it can be nice to separate these things
08:56	khaliG	so in $PROJECT/resources raek?
08:56	raek	yes
08:57	khaliG	ok thanks
08:57	raek	if that dir did not exist when you started clojure, you might need to restart it
08:57	khaliG	yeah i've got no such directory :/
08:57	khaliG	i was about to create it by hand
08:58	raek	yes, you have to do that
08:58	khaliG	ok understood
08:58	raek	(resource "foo/bar/file.png") will access $PROJECT/resources/foo/bar/file.png
08:58	khaliG	excellent, that's very nice and neat :)
08:59	raek	in the string you give to resource, always use forward slashes as separators and don't include one in the beginning of the string
09:01	raek	khaliG: also, you can give the thing you get from the resource call directly to the constructor of ImageIcon
09:01	johnbendi
09:03	khaliG	raek, that worked beautifully. I need to take a closure look at clojure.lang.io to see what other goodies lie there
09:06	gtrak	a closure look? lol
09:07	Wild_Cat	stupid question: why does get not work on lists when nth works on vectors?
09:08	gtrak	get is associative, vectors are also associative from ints to vals, I don't think lists are associative
09:08	bpsm	Wild_Cat: "get" is supposed to imply O(1), efficient random access, while nth implies sequential O(n) cost.
09:09	Wild_Cat	bpsm: does nth have O(n) cost on vectors as well?
09:09	gtrak	,(get ['a 'b 'c 'd] 1)
09:09	clojurebot	b
09:09	gtrak	,(get '('a 'b 'c 'd) 1)
09:09	clojurebot	nil
09:10	gtrak	,(nth '('a 'b 'c 'd) 1)
09:10	clojurebot	(quote b)
09:10	gtrak	,(nth ['a 'b 'c 'd] 1)
09:10	clojurebot	b
09:10	bpsm	I expect that nth will have O(n) cost on vectors as well (though clojure could special-case it, I don't think it does.)
09:10	johnbendi	what the best site for clojure business-related open source projects?
09:11	gtrak	bpsm, why wouldn't it special case it?
09:11	bpsm	because that just muddies the waters when you want to communicate get is O(1), nth is O(n).
09:11	gtrak	clojure always tends practical
09:12	gtrak	O(1) doesn't muddy the O(n) waters, it dilutes them :-)
09:12	gtrak	and big-o is always worst case
09:12	chouser	nth doesn't promise fast access in general, but does provide it on vectors.
09:14	bpsm	Yup. I just found that out too by reading the definition of nth in https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java It special cases for things that implement Indexed (like Vector).
09:15	Wild_Cat	I see. Thanks for the info.
09:16	Wild_Cat	I'm not convinced of the usefulness of having separate get and nth functions, but at least I see the reasoning behind it.
09:16	gtrak	in fact Indexed only has an nth and a count() method
09:16	gtrak	Wild_Cat, get works on maps
09:16	gtrak	nth on a map gives you an entry I believe
09:16	Wild_Cat	gtrak: sure. What I mean is, why not just have get work on all collections and get rid of nth entirely?
09:17	gtrak	,(nth {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} 1)
09:17	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentArrayMap>
09:17	Wild_Cat	I come from an OO background -- code to the interface, not the implementation, and performance characteristics are an implementation artifact ;)
09:17	gtrak	ah, it just fails, I think get and nth are conceptually different, the same argument is, why have vectors when a vector is just a map of ints to vals?
09:17	gtrak	just use maps instead
09:17	Wild_Cat	gtrak: because maps are unordered.
09:18	Wild_Cat	and because maps may be sparse
09:18	gtrak	you can have a non-sparse ordered map if you like
09:18	Wild_Cat	gtrak: yeah, it's called a vector :p
09:18	manutter	wait, get and nth do different things, don't they?
09:19	gtrak	they only do the same thing on vectors
09:19	gtrak	which makes sense
09:19	manutter	get == "look up a value in a map (associative array) with an optional default value if the key is not found"
09:19	manutter	nth == "retrieve an item in a list based on position"
09:19	manutter	right?
09:19	clojurebot	to be fair I dunno that I've ever had code out right rejected, it just sits in jira or assembla or where ever, or if I ask if there is any interest (before writing any code) I get told to go write alioth benchmarks
09:20	manutter	botsmack
09:20	gtrak	Wild_Cat, I think many of clojure guys come from OO background :-). At some point it's worth drawing a line, and they draw it at performance guarantees. Sometimes you want a map, sometimes you want a vector.
09:21	gtrak	the abstraction for both is called collection
09:21	mprentice	gtrak: vectors and maps are different data structures with different characteristics, appropriate in different situations
09:21	Wild_Cat	gtrak: like I said, I understand the reasoning. I don't agree with it, but I understand it ;)
09:21	gtrak	Wild_Cat, I think you should agree with it :-)
09:21	gtrak	not to be dogmatic
09:22	Wild_Cat	gtrak: well, my point of comparison here is Java's own LinkedList and ArrayList
09:22	Wild_Cat	which both support the List interface.
09:22	Wild_Cat	but widely different performance characteristics.
09:22	gtrak	there's a common interface if that's what you need
09:23	mprentice	gtrak: oops sorry, i think i jumped in talking to the wrong person :P
09:23	gtrak	mprentice, yes, I agreed with what you said
09:23	Wild_Cat	gtrak: still, what I get of all this is that get shouldn't be used on vectors either. If you want a list interface use nth, and if you want a map interface use get.
09:23	Wild_Cat	(that way vectors and linked lists can be swapped out for each other at will without needing to rewrite the code that accesses them)
09:24	gtrak	Wild_Cat, you can still swap out vectors and linked lists, though you might have to run seq on the vector
09:25	gtrak	http://clojure.org/sequences
09:25	mprentice	i usually treat vectors as tuples. i haven't done any performance sensitive stuff so that list performance is a problem.
09:25	Wild_Cat	gtrak: whereas if you avoid get altogether you don't have to do anything other than replace the list with a vector (or the opposite) where it's instantiated
09:26	Wild_Cat	of course, if you find out a map is what you really needed you're screwed, but IME it's more common to swap lists/vectors than vectors/maps or lists/maps.
09:26	Wild_Cat	(then again, ME doesn't include any actual Clojure work, so...)
09:26	gtrak	Wild_Cat, ... they're all trees anyway
09:26	Wild_Cat	God is a hash map ;)
09:27	gtrak	anyways, you should probably check out Rich Hickey's seqs video: http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-sequences-740581
09:28	Wild_Cat	gtrak: will do. Cheers.
09:30	jweiss	how is "tail position" defined? I'm returning a vector literal, and i'm calling recur inside the literal. but the compiler doesn't think that's the tail position.
09:31	gtrak	jweiss, if you want an accumulator, make an extra binding in the loop
09:31	gtrak	like (loop [out [] input start] or something
09:32	jweiss	gtrak: i don't think i want an accumulator. i'm turning a list of trace log statements into nested vectors: http://fpaste.org/QXoo/
09:34	gtrak	jweiss, well that's not the tail position because it has to keep track of the prior stack frame to be able to build it up, if you can refactor it to use assoc-in, it'll work
09:35	jweiss	gtrak: i am not seeing how assoc-in helps, it's not a map, it's a vector
09:36	gtrak	it's how you update nested structures more easily
09:36	mprentice	gtrak: i'm not familiar with assoc-in, but it sounds interesting. can you point me to some examples?
09:36	gtrak	vectors are maps of ints to vals
09:36	jweiss	gtrak: ah ok i see what you are saying, i can accumlulate the vector and insert where necessary
09:37	gtrak	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/assoc-in
09:39	gtrak	looks like it won't automatically create the nested vector for you, it works best on maps
09:39	gtrak	(assoc-in {} [:bob :bob2] :bob3)
09:39	gtrak	,(assoc-in {} [:bob :bob2] :bob3)
09:39	clojurebot	{:bob {:bob2 :bob3}}
09:40	gtrak	,(assoc-in [] [:bob :bob2] :bob3)
09:40	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer>
09:40	jweiss	gtrak: i think i don't even need recur, since i'm processing trace logs, if the fn call depth didn't blow the stack, my processing the log won't either.
09:40	gtrak	,(assoc-in [] [0 1] :bob3)
09:40	clojurebot	[{1 :bob3}]
09:40	gtrak	jweiss, might as well do it iteratively if you can
09:40	chouser	right. currently to use assoc-in on vectors you need the vectors to exist already
09:40	gtrak	you don't want a time-bomb
09:40	chouser	,(assoc-in [[]] [0 1] :bob3)
09:40	clojurebot	#<IndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException>
09:41	chouser	,(assoc-in [[:x0 :x1]] [0 1] :bob3)
09:41	clojurebot	[[:x0 :bob3]]
09:41	chouser	there has been talk (but no action afaik) on an assoc-in-like thing that lets you specify how to create new collections
09:43	mprentice	gtrak: ahh i see. assoc-in seems related to a zipper, so you can pass in a path and do a deep udpate
09:43	mprentice	gtrak: super nifty!
09:43	gtrak	assoc-in is cool stuff, try to write that in java
09:45	mprentice	jweiss: this might be hopelessly dated, but i would have fn processor take an accumulator param
09:45	jweiss	mprentice: that would seem to make the fucntion a lot more complex, since I'd also have to keep track of the current insertion point
09:46	jweiss	seems like using recursion is what would make this a lot simpler
09:46	mprentice	jweiss: ah yeah i'm taking a closer look at the structure of what you're building
09:48	jweiss	mprentice: here's the same paste with the input i'm going to give it added: http://fpaste.org/Qm4S/
09:48	gtrak	jweiss, I assure you, any recursive algorithm can be made iterative :-)
09:49	jweiss	gtrak: i'm aware of that :)
09:49	jweiss	http://fpaste.org/ybT2/
09:50	mprentice	iteration with immutable trees is the situation zippers were made for. clojure.contrib.zip-filter.xml
09:50	mprentice	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/zip-filter-api.html
09:51	jweiss	mprentice: yeah, i tried that first, but zipper docs are not clear on how i'm supposed to turn a leaf node into a branch and add a child
09:51	jweiss	append-child just complains about child on a leaf node
09:52	mprentice	would it be terrible advice to do it recursively and leave a note to do it iteratively with a zipper? :P
09:53	mprentice	;; TODO: iterate with zipper for log file > 100KB
09:54	jweiss	mprentice: i don't think recursive could ever blow the stack, just by virtue of the data i'm giving it - it's stack data. if it was > maxdepth, the stack would have blown while creating the data before this fn could ever see it
09:54	jweiss	but yeah i DID try to use zippers first
09:55	mprentice	jweiss: i learned how to use xml zippers because i was dealing with big-ish xml files :P
09:55	jweiss	mprentice: were you creating xml or parsing it
09:56	mprentice	jweiss: converting from one xml format to another
09:56	mprentice	jweiss: the sort of thing xslt is supposed to solve but always makes me want to tear my eyeballs out whenever i have to use any programming logic
09:56	jweiss	mprentice: do you have an example you could point me to
09:56	chouser	If you're sure the data is small enough, a recursive solution is almost always prettier in Clojure than an iterative solution, especially if that requires manual use of zippers.
09:57	mprentice	chouser: indeed
09:57	mprentice	jweiss: lemme see
09:58	gtrak	you could probably do tail recursion if you save off the data for later in a bunch of closures
09:58	chouser	I've been doing a lot of small tree rewriting at work recently and although seq-tree, walk, and zippers are all alluring, in the end a plain ol' recursive function ends up being succinct, flexible, and fast.
09:58	chouser	er, tree-seq
10:00	mprentice	chouser: i used walk a few months ago. if you have to update values inside an xml tree, it's soooo good.
10:01	chouser	yep
10:01	mprentice	jweiss: i have a file that walks through an xml tree and prints it out in a .dot file. i dunno how useful it is if you're not familiar with the input xml it's using.
10:01	jweiss	chouser: i ended up here because i'm writing a log file, and writing logs as a tree structure is bad because you can't know when to close open tags (or braces). so i elected to write the logs as a flat structure with the depth as one field in each entry. now i am trying to convert back to a tree
10:02	jweiss	(after the file has been closed)
10:02	chouser	I didn't mean to detract from any of those. They each are very powerful in their place. Walk is expecially good with "mixed" trees of various clojure stuctures (maps, vectors, etc.)
10:03	chouser	jweiss: ah, so converting a sequence back into a tree.
10:03	chouser	I wrote a function for just such a situation, specifically to convert a sequence of XML SAX events into a DOM-like tree.
10:04	chouser	I haven't documented it properly. It deserves a talk or blog post.
10:04	mprentice	i also solved a very similar problem
10:04	mprentice	where dependencies came in in any order, but had to be output in a specific order
10:06	mprentice	jweiss: i would go the recursive route with a note
10:06	jweiss	mprentice: that's what i'm trying now :)
10:06	chouser	Not sure if seq-tree would be convinient when the input includes depth rather than up/down events: http://bit.ly/o8ArdK
10:06	mprentice	jweiss: so when it breaks later, you or someone else can shake your fist and say "damn you lazy asshole!"
10:07	jweiss	mprentice: i'm pretty sure it's safe to use recursion here. as long as someone doesn't try to use this function to process some other kind of data, which i don't see ever happening :)
10:08	jweiss	chouser: it also has up/down events, i probably don't even need the depth, i just have a boolean which is whether the line is for a fn entry or exit
10:09	jweiss	seq-tree might do what i want - looking
10:09	mprentice	jweiss: famous last words. "nobody will ever need more than 64K of stack..."
10:09	jweiss	mprentice: but my data is traced fn calls
10:09	jweiss	how can processing them blow the stack but didn't blow the stack when the trace was run?
10:10	chouser	different JVM settings? :-/
10:10	jweiss	chouser: yeah, that is true
10:10	jweiss	ok ok you guys win
10:11	mprentice	jweiss: i was advocating expediency! i was just also pointing out that it could potentially cause difficulties later
10:11	chouser	I agree with mprentice :-)
10:12	chouser	recursive is good! If your log parser blows up they can tweak their JVM settings and it'll work.
10:12	khaliG	(.darker (java.awt.Color. 100)) works as expected in the repl; but the same line in code gives Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: lighter for class java.awt.Color - any ideas?
10:13	gtrak	maybe we can create a stackless clojure
10:13	gtrak	jweiss get on it
10:13	jweiss	chouser: i'm not sure seq-tree would work, since i don't have any "node events", just enter/exit subtree
10:14	jweiss	i guess i could pre-proccess the data to make it have node events
10:15	khaliG	oh i see, i was actually calling .lighter on nil - my mistake, nevermind
10:16	chouser	jweiss: if you either give up on seq-tree or manage to make it work, I'd be curious to see how far you get. seq-tree was written specifically for XML, but I'd like it to be as general as possible.
10:22	chouser	jweiss: your enter subtree event has all the details you would want for the subtree?
10:25	jweiss	chouser: no, my events are just fn enter and fn exit (the former has the fn name and args, the latter the return value)
10:26	jweiss	so basically the enter has half the node info, the exit has the other half
10:27	chouser	hm.
10:28	jweiss	well, i'm not sure what a node is in this case, i suppose a node can be either the fn call or the return value
10:28	jweiss	in which case each entry is either [enter-subtree node] or [node exit-subtree]
10:29	chouser	,(seq-tree #(when (not= %1 :up) (vector %1 %2)) #{:up} identity [:a :b :up :c :d])
10:29	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seq-tree in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:29	chouser	oh, heh.
10:30	chouser	anyway, that has the down-event data in each node without pre-processing the seq
10:30	jweiss	chouser: cool i'll give that a shot
10:30	jweiss	thanks
10:30	chouser	but it's missing data from up events
10:32	chouser	a key requirement for seq-tree was to be as lazy as possible. requiring the exit event of a subtree in order to return the subtree pretty well defeats that
10:32	chouser	but that doesn't mean it could work. hm..
10:34	chouser	yeah, seq-tree doesn't allow for the existence of any useful data in exit events. a weakness.
10:35	jweiss	chouser: i control the data being produced here, so i could easily change it - what do you recommend?
10:36	jweiss	my only restriction is i can only write to the data on fn call/exit
10:36	jweiss	so i could write [enter node] and then [node exit] ?
10:37	juhu_chapa	hi folks, i am a beginner. i have been reading some clojure code and sometimes i have found "->" and a do not understand how is used, somebody can help me?
10:37	jweiss	juhu_chapa: yeah that was pretty mindbending for me too when i first started
10:38	jweiss	imagine your forms as those russian nested dolls. using -> lets you put the dolls side by side, and it'll automatically nest them all for you
10:39	jweiss	http://revolutioniz.com/revolutioniz/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/russian_dolls.jpg
10:39	jweiss	although that image is sort of backward, in clojure you'd put your smallest doll first
10:40	chouser	jweiss: possibly. Your best solution might still be your own recursive function. But I'd like to better understand the problem space of converting seqs to trees.
10:40	chouser	jweiss: Having data in the exit event makes perfect sense for your problem space, so I'm trying to think about how seq-tree could accomodate that.
10:47	gtrak	juhu_chapa, http://blog.fogus.me/2009/09/04/understanding-the-clojure-macro/
10:48	gtrak	there's also a ->> that threads into the last spot
10:49	gtrak	,(-> 4 (conj 6) str)
10:49	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection>
10:50	chouser	[4]
10:51	jkkramer	srid: prompted by your question a couple days ago about finding all projects that depend on X, i built this: http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com/
10:51	gtrak	,(-> [] (conj 4))
10:51	clojurebot	[4]
10:52	gtrak	,(->> 4 (conj []))
10:52	clojurebot	[4]
10:52	gtrak	,(conj [] 4)
10:52	clojurebot	[4]
10:52	gtrak	get it?
10:52	chouser	jweiss: (seq-tree #(when (symbol? %) {:name %1 :exit (:x (last %2)) :kids (drop-last %2)}) #{'up} identity (mapcat #(if (= 'up %) [(meta %) %] [%]) '[a b ^{:x :foo} up c d up up ^{:x :last} up]))
10:53	chouser	That uses mapcat to preprocess the event stream, putting a special node event before each exit event, which the 'parent' fn then extracts.
10:53	chouser	clumsy. seq-tree should provide the exit event to the parent function somehow.
10:54	jweiss	chouser: nice, only problem with that i can foresee is it would read my whole log into memory
10:54	Mike\|home	Why doesn't Clojure perform tail call optimization at compile time like Scala does?
10:55	juhu_chapa	thank you very much to all
10:55	chouser	jweiss: yep. to process the first node, it would read to the exit event of that first node.
10:55	gtrak	Mike\|home, recur will error at compile-time if it's not in tail position, that's better than doing it implicitly, no?
10:55	jweiss	chouser: i'm not sure that the solution i come up with won't end up doing that too, though :)
10:55	chouser	jweiss: after that, since it's a lazy seq, that first node could get GCed, but each whole node will be in memory
10:56	Mike\|home	Do Scala people envy that feature, gtrak?
10:56	gtrak	who cares? :-)
10:56	Mike\|home	Hahaha. Thanks. Question answered :)
10:56	chouser	Mike\|home: It seems to me there is already plenty of confusion about what "tail position" means.
10:57	jweiss	yeah i asked about that an hour ago :)
10:57	chouser	Clojure's approach means when you're wrong you get a clean error that says you were wrong about tail position.
10:57	chouser	(and we all know how much Clojure concentrates on clean error messages. :-P)
10:57	Mike\|home	chouser: I agree, that does help the developer an awful lot.
10:57	Mike\|home	Haha
10:57	jweiss	apparently [1 2 (recur a b)] is not tail position because the overall vector is evaluated last, not the recur?
10:58	chouser	If Clojure converted tail-position recursive calls into 'recurs', when you're wrong you would get a runtime error, but only on sufficiently large data.
10:58	chouser	I wonder how much Scala code has stack overflows waiting to happen...
10:59	Mike\|home	Hahaha, I never thought of that, chouser
10:59	chouser	jweiss: right. "tail" in this case doesn't mean "syntactically last"
11:00	jweiss	chouser: yeah that's what is confusing about "tail" since it sounds rather spatial to me, when really it's temporal
11:00	chouser	hm. maybe.
11:04	chouser	Only expressions which may wholly be returned by a form are in the tail position of that form.
11:05	chouser	so in (let [a b, c d] e f g), only g is in the tail position
11:05	chouser	because none of b, d, e, nor f will be returned by the let
11:05	jweiss	chouser: ah so that is why literals are different
11:05	jweiss	since what's returned is the entire literal
11:05	chouser	right
11:06	jweiss	maybe we should call it "return position" :)
11:07	chouser	so in (fn [a b] (prn :hi) (+ 1 2 3)) the call to + is in the tail position, but none of its args are.
11:07	cemerick	anyone know what an "intrinsic predicate" is?
11:09	chouser	cemerick: "Identity of relation may, of course, be taken to indicate an intrinsic predicate which the terms have in common" -- Bertrand Russell
11:09	chouser	cemerick: in other words, I have absolutely no clue.
11:09	cemerick	mmm, right
11:09	cemerick	So, something between Russell and https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/e92978783e1ba7ac0e2617fdabfed576209d7fa4
11:09	cemerick	approximately :-P
11:10	chouser	ha!
11:13	chouser	cemerick: http://java.comsci.us/etymology/type/intrinsic.html
11:14	chouser	synonym for "primitive type" I think
11:14	cemerick	Must have been introduced to improve clarity.
11:14	chouser	heh
11:15	cemerick	In any case, not knowing my ASM as comprehensively as I probably should, I've no idea what that code does.
11:16	chouser	That table is fascinating. It looks like it may be replacing calls to various static methods with special JVM opcodes
11:17	cemerick	Oh, not having to go through c.l.Numbers for stuff like shifts, I think…
11:17	cemerick	right
11:17	chouser	had no idea that was in there.
11:17	cemerick	committed yesterday (!)
11:18	hugod	must be a bugfix then ;)
11:21	chouser	heh
11:25	juhu_chapa	guys, here with another beginner question: i am using the function read-properties from the contrib: (read-properties file-able)
11:25	juhu_chapa	after that how can i read the properties?
11:25	juhu_chapa	where are they?
11:26	technomancy	jkkramer: I've totally been wanting to build that for a while now
11:26	technomancy	did you base it on the clojars sql dumps?
11:26	jkkramer	technomancy: me too. finally got around to it yesterday
11:27	jkkramer	technomancy: rsync -av clojars.org::clojars clojars
11:27	technomancy	slick
11:27	jkkramer	i wasn't sure how to get sql dumps, which would've probably been a lot less to download
11:28	technomancy	I wonder if that could be integrated into clojars at some point
11:28	jkkramer	i was wondering the same
11:28	chouser	clojars scares me
11:28	technomancy	http://meshy.org/~ato/clojars-test-data.sql.gz
11:28	jkkramer	is clojars under community control?
11:28	technomancy	chouser: as a codebase or as a service?
11:28	jkkramer	technomancy: is that kept up to date?
11:28	chouser	service. I know nothing of its codebase
11:29	technomancy	jkkramer: so far it's been _ato, but he's pretty open to having others help out. nobody's really taken him up on it so far though
11:30	technomancy	chouser: the SPOFiness?
11:30	jkkramer	my first thought was to make a clojars patch, but there are so many forks & branches, i wasn't sure where to start
11:30	chouser	the unsigned, first-in-wins, namespace clashiness
11:31	cemerick	its use as a personal sandbox…
11:31	cemerick	we've been through all this before, though
11:31	coopernurse	juhu_chapa: read-properties returns a java.util.Properties object that you can reference
11:32	pjstadig	chouser: why does it have to be unsigned?
11:32	juhu_chapa	:O
11:32	thorwil	jkkramer: http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com/ is remarkably well laid out :)
11:32	coopernurse	eg: (def p (read-properties "/tmp/foo.properties"))
11:32	juhu_chapa	is really simple
11:32	juhu_chapa	thanks coopernurse
11:32	coopernurse	(.getProperty p "my prop")
11:33	technomancy	jkkramer: does your site just check :dependencies or is it :dev as well?
11:33	jkkramer	thorwil: thanks
11:34	jkkramer	technomancy: both. the data is separated in the underlying store, but displayed combined
11:34	jkkramer	i wasn't sure off-hand how i wanted to provide a UI filter
11:35	technomancy	yeah, it's not a straightforward problem
11:35	jkkramer	maybe just a site-wide toggle in the header or something
11:36	technomancy	could also probably use a "see all" truncation widget
11:37	technomancy	jkkramer: part of the reason we don't have more people hacking on clojars is that it's hard to set up with nailgun and the separate user account. hiredman has a branch to make all that go away
11:37	cemerick	pjstadig: Are there any signed artifacts in clojars?
11:38	pjstadig	cemerick: is there any reason they can't be signed?
11:38	technomancy	signing is the easy part; it's building up the web of trust that I wouldn't know how to do
11:39	pjstadig	the internet is pretty crazy out there
11:39	pjstadig	you can't even be sure the website you're visiting is the one you want
11:39	pjstadig	you have to be responsible
11:39	technomancy	maybe we could outsource that to diginotar
11:40	technomancy	they've got some pretty cheap certs these days =)
11:40	cemerick	pjstadig: No, but that's not really the point.
11:40	chouser	I don't know that things in clojars can't be signed.
11:40	cemerick	As onerous as central's policies are, requiring all artifacts to be signed is unabashedly good.
11:41	ejackson	ooh ooh..... flights to get to the conj have dropped dramatically
11:41	ejackson	it might even be possible :D
11:41	chouser	but what scares me is if I release a project with deps that are resolved by pulling code from clojars, it seems quite likely that someone using my lib could get exploit code from who know whom via clojars. Maybe there's something I'm unaware of that prevents that. I hope so.
11:42	technomancy	cemerick: so the point is not that it's coming from someone you trust, but that the artifact was signed by the same key as the one that signed earlier releases?
11:42	cemerick	technomancy: Right, you have a shot at determining legitimacy.
11:43	cemerick	ejackson: gotta be there :-D
11:43	technomancy	it certainly would help in the event of a compromised server or the like
11:44	chouser	of course if we could depend on SHA-1's instead of maven coordinates, signing would be a lot less important -- ie, only an issue at dev time.
11:44	technomancy	I wonder if it would be feasible to add that kind of requirement mid-stream as it were
11:44	ejackson	yeah, if I come around early for the training I save 1,500 GBP on flights, which is nutso, so I just might
11:44	technomancy	we do have access to the scp outputstream, so we can insert any kind of deprecation warning
11:44	technomancy	and once we separate releases and snapshots, the policy would probably only need to apply to releases
11:45	pjstadig	cemerick: all I'm saying is that jar signing is ostensibly a solution to this problem, so complain about jar signing, and not clojars
11:46	pjstadig	if you want to know whether you can trust a message (or jar) that comes through an untrusted channel, then use signing
11:47	cemerick	pjstadig: It's clojars' policies that are problematic. If people aren't signing artifacts as a matter of course (which no one will do unless required by the accepting repository), then there's no point.
11:47	chouser	pjstadig: but it's also a culture. a maven plugin that checkes for signed jars, plus use of it (including I suppose all the signatures I trust) in a lib I release still won't do any good if the deps I need aren't signed.
11:47	chouser	er right, what cemerick said.
11:47	cemerick	I can't very well lobby authors of my dependencies to practice good hygiene.
11:48	pjstadig	right, which means you have to be careful and specify to your build system that you only want signed jars
11:48	pjstadig	that's orthogonal to the clojars policy
11:49	pjstadig	it would be nice if every website used SSL and had a trust chain that went back to a CA i trusted, but somehow we manage to survive
11:52	cemerick	That's fine, if you are OK with never using clojars. If clojars doesn't require signed jars, then it will never contain signed jars.
11:52	pjstadig	cemerick: why can't you lobby the authors of your deps? if people don't know that they should be signing jars, then how will they know?
11:52	cemerick	Hopefully, deploying to central will become nearly as trivial as deploying to clojars soon.
11:53	pjstadig	chouser: i don't think that its as bad as you think, once someone claims an groupId on clojars no one else can push to it AFAIK
11:53	chouser	jweiss: actually, there may be a conflict between seq-tree providing access to the exit event from the parent fn and the ability to provide sufficient laziness.
11:54	technomancy	we've had a couple of instances where a misclaimed groupid has been reinstated to its rightful owner through manual intervention.
11:54	cemerick	pjstadig: Sorry, that's just absurd. Even the smallest of my (deliverable) projects involves transitive dependencies on dozens of libraries from different projects/authors.
11:55	jweiss	chouser: i could see that being the case. i'm still trying to write my own recursive fn
11:55	technomancy	despite it being a technical solution to a cultural problem, I think if the tools made it easy we should consider requiring signed releases
11:56	pjstadig	cemerick: i don't see how it is productive to complain about a problem, then not be willing to work to fix it
11:56	pjstadig	besides just getting everyone to sign jars is only the first step
11:56	pjstadig	just because you know its the same person pushing versions doesn't mean you can trust them
11:56	pjstadig	and even people you can trust can introduce nasty bugs
11:56	technomancy	yeah, it's necessary but not sufficient =\
11:56	pjstadig	it's just not as simple as you make it seem, cemerick
11:57	jkkramer	technomancy: are the clojars code changes being discussed on a mailing list, or ad hoc on IRC and such?
11:57	jkkramer	re nailgun & such, not signing
11:58	technomancy	jkkramer: there's a maintainers list: http://groups.google.com/group/clojars-maintainers
11:58	technomancy	though I don't know if the scp changes are being discussed there yet; currently it's just a hiredman project
11:58	jkkramer	ah, there it is. didn't turn up via google
11:58	technomancy	though I am quite curious about it too
11:58	technomancy	jkkramer: maybe a different colored background for dev deps?
11:59	jkkramer	technomancy: good idea
12:01	cemerick	pjstadig: The start of "fixing it" is a policy change IMO. Policy changes through discussion, debate, and convincing others. It's not like I can submit a pull request for such things.
12:08	srid	jkkramer: looks like irccloud ate my responses to your message. did you get them?
12:08	jkkramer	srid: no
12:09	srid	ah ok. i like the UI, pretty simple. i'm trying to set it up locally and `lein run -m clojuresphere.preprocess` raises java.lang.NullPointerException
12:10	juhu_chapa	guys, where can i find documentation to run a clojure app in the command line?
12:11	jkkramer	srid: the actual preprocessing steps are in a comment in preprocess.clj. haven't turned it into a runnable thing yet, since they are still a bit messy
12:11	manutter	juhu_chapa: are you using leiningen?
12:11	jkkramer	srid: note that you'll need to download a hefty amount of data to do it - more than a gig from clojars, and thousands of github calls
12:12	hugod	anyone know where strint is in 1.3?
12:12	srid	jkkramer: how long would that take on average? and is the 'update' faster for the github calls?
12:13	technomancy	jkkramer: how much did you find that was available only via github and not clojars?
12:13	cemerick	hugod: "where"? Still in old contrib, AFAIK.
12:13	cemerick	I think it was OK'd for transition, but I haven't gotten to it.
12:13	technomancy	I'm surprised you implemented both sources already for a project that's a day old =)
12:14	cemerick	Insofar as Rich et al. have said that it's not likely to make it into core, I may just continue development of it outside of the contrib process.
12:14	hugod	cemerick: ok, it was listed under core.incubator on the library names page
12:15	cemerick	oh really?
12:15	jkkramer	srid: 15-30 mins maybe. updates are still slow, since there's no easy way to find out which repos changed. i would be reluctant to run the github fetching more than once a day or so, to avoid hitting rate limits
12:15	juhu_chapa	manutter: no, i am using enclojure.
12:16	cemerick	huh, lookit that
12:16	manutter	Hmm, enclojure, I've never built a standalone jar with that...
12:17	jkkramer	technomancy: Raynes' github api helped: just searched for "clojure" with language "clojure"...which leaves some repos out, like clojure itself (written mostly in java)
12:17	cemerick	hugod: I'll have to see what's up there. IIRC, you had some ideas for strint improvement, correct?
12:17	Raynes	jkkramer: Oh cool, you made use of that?
12:17	Raynes	I was wondering if anybody else on the planet ever would.
12:18	manutter	juhu_chapa: the basic idea is to build a standalone jar file that includes all the libs/jars that your clojure code depends on (including the clojure jar itself)
12:18	jkkramer	technomancy: i haven't run a "difference" query yet to check which exist on one but not the other. there were way more projects on clojars, but that may be because it includes all past versions
12:18	technomancy	jkkramer: naturally
12:18	jkkramer	Raynes: http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com/clj-github :)
12:18	manutter	juhu_chapa: but I'm not sure what the specifics would be
12:18	technomancy	jkkramer: end-user applications don't necessarily end up on clojars, so there is that
12:19	jkkramer	technomancy: right. only open source
12:19	hugod	cemerick: pallet added some stuff on top to do runtime interpolation - I'll probably just copy the code into pallet.common along with all the other contrib stuff used in pallet that isn't in the new contrib.
12:19	jkkramer	maybe i should say "graph of the open source Clojure ecosystem"
12:19	hugod	cemerick: longer term, I might just switch to using one of the mustache libs
12:19	squidz	what's so good at paredit?
12:19	cemerick	hugod: using eval?
12:20	Raynes	jkkramer: Since someone is actually using it, I'll give it a once over this weekend and see if I can't update/fix any nastiness.
12:20	hugod	cemerick: yes
12:20	jkkramer	Raynes: worked fine for my modest needs
12:22	Raynes	jkkramer: Am I right in that every API function requires a auth argument? That could probably be remedied.
12:23	srid	jkkramer: would be nice to sort the 'Dependents' list itself by their number of dependents. enlive has 63 dependents, and I was most interested in the popular dependents.
12:23	Raynes	It's kind of pointless, given that not everything requires authentication. Hence your very empty github-auth map.
12:23	jkkramer	Raynes: i didn't use auth -- just gave {} as the argument. seemed to work fine
12:23	jkkramer	right
12:24	Raynes	Also, I guess I need to go over my gist stuff, since it was written before the gist API was documented.
12:24	jkkramer	srid: yeah, i will probably do that. or privde options for sort criteria: most-dependents, last-updated, alphabetical, etc
12:24	Raynes	Anyways, this is a lovely website.
12:24	Raynes	Happy to have helped.
12:25	jkkramer	thanks, it saved me a good chunk of time :)
12:27	srid	will take a look at clojuresphere when i get back home, and contribute something. good way to learn clojure.
12:27	juhu_chapa	manutter: i have installed lein, could you describe please the process of creating a jar?
12:28	manutter	juhu_chapa: ah, that's an easy one: "lein jar" will create a jar with just your app code in it, and "lein uberjar" will create a standalone jar that you can run with "java -jar whatever-you-called-your.jar"
12:30	jkkramer	technomancy: 1384 distinct artifact ids for github projects, 879 of which do not exist on clojars. 1641 ids for clojars, 1136 of which do not exist on github. 505 that exist in both.
12:31	juhu_chapa	manutter: i have created myproject/src directory and i wrote there a helloworld.clj, can you post me a project.clj using clojure 1.2.1 and contrib 1.2?
12:32	manutter	juhu_chapa: if you create your project with "lein new myproject" it will set you up with the right project.clj file automatically
12:34	juhu_chapa	manutter: ohh, let me see.
12:35	srid	i did not realize that i can host more than one app in heroku for free. thought the free 1 dyno == 1 app.
12:36	srid	this makes heroku irresistibly for hobby projects
12:36	srid	irresistibly attractive*
12:38	juhu_chapa	manutter: project creation succeded, there is a core.clj in src, what is the purpose of that file?
12:38	manutter	That is the default source code file, you'd normally put your "hello world" code in there
12:39	manutter	but you can delete it if you don't like it, and put your code in a different file if you put a :main def in your project.clj
12:40	manutter	There's a lot of leiningen documentation in the example project.clj file (https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj)
12:41	juhu_chapa	manutter: really simple, thank you for your help.
12:41	manutter	anytime
12:49	jkkramer	srid: i had the same realization recently. the cedar stack is relatively unrestricted (300+ MB ram, threads, etc). not much persistent storage, though
12:51	gtrak	srid, someone's been trying to persuade me to do that, any advantages over a local jetty for development?
12:53	srid	gtrak: ?
12:54	gtrak	srid, to check out heroku i mean
12:54	srid	hmm, for development I use jetty via 'lein ring server'. heroku is only for deployment.
12:55	srid	and deploying clojure to heroku is pretty easy. mostly just need a single-line file `Procfile`
12:55	gtrak	srid, so you can show off some stuff I guess, but can you really do anything substantial without storage and db?
12:56	srid	heroku does provide postgresql database (and mongo and others via external addons). only 5MB is free. i don't know about storage; i can probably live without it.
13:05	juhu_chapa	manutter: i am getting the following error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0), what i have missed?
13:05	juhu_chapa	this when i run: lein compile inside the project dir
13:06	manutter	Can you post your source code in a gist (gist.github.com)?
13:06	manutter	I don't think you need to do lein compile, by the way-- lein uberjar will create the standalone for you
13:09	gtrak	does lein uberjar do AOT on everything?
13:10	juhu_chapa	manutter: git clone git://gist.github.com/1198232.git gist-1198232
13:10	manutter	gtrak: I don't think it needs to, does it? Uberjar will include clojure, which will compile the scripts dynamically (I think)
13:11	amalloy	it compiles whatever you say needs to be compiled
13:12	amalloy	juhu_chapa: a few minutes ago you were asking how to create a project/jar; that's a very strong indicator that you don't need to compile anything
13:14	manutter	juhu_chapa: I don't think you need (:gen-class) in your namespace, and it might be messing you up. You can just run your hello-world code as straight clojure
13:14	manutter	(from within the jar)
13:14	juhu_chapa	amalloy: i am trying to break my OOP mindset.
13:15	manutter	I don't think the (read-properties) should be a problem, but that would be the second thing I would comment out if it were still crashing
13:15	amalloy	manutter: first thing i'd do. that's unlikely to work
13:15	manutter	but I'd start by commenting out the :gen-class line and then running lein uberjar
13:16	amalloy	(defn properties [] (read-properties ...)), and then use (properties) instead of just properties
13:17	manutter	amalloy: you're doing that because properties might change at runtime, I'm thinking?
13:17	amalloy	no, because you can't really define the properties at compiletime it's not an object that can be embedded into java code
13:18	amalloy	hm. my - key seems to be broken? i left out two of them in that
13:19	amalloy	manutter: a java program that wanted to do the same would have to look like: class Foo { static { properties = ...}} - that's happening when the app starts up, not when you compile it
13:19	amalloy	you can't just put Some Random Object into the bytecode; you have to include the code to create the object instead
13:20	manutter	amalloy: ah, ok, I wouldn't have expected that (due to my Java inexperience) but I can see it now that you explain it.
13:22	manutter	When I try (read-properties) at the repl, it gives me a file-not-found error for "app.properties" -- sounds like it's actually looking for a config file to parse.
13:22	amalloy	well yes
13:22	manutter	maybe I should look up the docs on that puppy :)
13:22	gtrak	manutter, try putting it in the resources dir in your leiningen project
13:22	amalloy	eh, just an empty file will be a legal .properties file
13:23	manutter	gtrak: I'm not the one that's using it, I'm just trying to help juhu_chapa figure out the exception he's getting on lein compile
13:24	manutter	,(doc clojure.contrib.java-utils/read-properties)
13:24	clojurebot	Pardon?
13:24	manutter	clojurebot: :P
13:24	clojurebot	Pardon?
13:24	amalloy	manutter: you can also probably repro if you replace (read-properties "foo") with (java.util.Properties.)
13:25	gtrak	amalloy, so all the things in an ns are compiled to a static initializer block? what determines the order classes are loaded?
13:25	amalloy	(a) no, i'm pretty sure that's not how it works, and (b) i dunno
13:26	gtrak	ah ok, I'm trying to get an intuition for that stuff, but maybe it's best just to dig in
13:26	amalloy	mostly, you should only put functions at the top level, is the answer
13:27	amalloy	or clojure objects, which i guess can be embedded because they can be shimmed in with pr-str/read? i'm not sure about that. but you can't put arbitrary java objects at the top level if you want to AOT-compile stuff
13:28	juhu_chapa	guys i commented out the :gen-class line and the read-properties line and i am still getting the no source error
13:34	manutter	juhu_chapa: what are you typing on the command line? Just "lein compile"?
13:36	manutter	juhu_chapa: the No Source message just means that the error is not located in a source file
13:36	manutter	i.e. before it gets to your program code in other words
13:38	manutter	juhu_chapa: it's also possible that you have more than one Clojure jar in your classpath, or some other java lib dependency problem
13:41	juhu_chapa	yeah: lein compile or lein uberjar throws the same error
13:41	juhu_chapa	is there a java version issue with clojure? i am using openjdk7
13:42	amalloy	uhhhh i don't know if 7 is working
13:42	amalloy	i think it probably is, but i'm not sure
13:45	chouser	7 is being added to the test matrix. Haven't seen any results yet.
13:47	pjstadig	there's no problem with java7
13:47	pjstadig	not that I've seen
13:48	manutter	pjstadig: sun java7 or open java7?
13:48	pjstadig	what's the diff
13:49	amalloy	well, they're different :P
13:49	amalloy	eg, cljs doesn't work on openjdk because the compiler is depending on some internal undocumented class
13:50	amalloy	or, at least, that was the state of things for a while after cljs was announced. maybe someone's fixed that; the point is they're not the same
13:50	pjstadig	yeah i'm not talking about clojurescript i'm talking about clojure
13:53	arohner	pjstadig: openjdk doesn't contain a bunch of stuff due to licensing
13:53	technomancy	arohner: that was true of 6 (mostly font rendering libs) but I don't think it's true of 7
13:54	arohner	technomancy: interesting. Did they get the licenses sorted out, or drop the features? I seem to recall some sound & graphics libs as well
13:55	technomancy	I don't know for sure; I think headius might.
13:56	juhu_chapa	guys, the problem was openjdk7.
13:56	juhu_chapa	now i am using sun jdk 6
13:56	juhu_chapa	i all works
13:58	juhu_chapa	by the way the :gen-class is needed in order to generate the class inside the jar. after run lein uberjar, just typed: java -jar myjar.
14:05	headius	openjdk is 100% open source now
14:06	headius	the IcedTea replacements for the proprietary bits were merged in some time ago, I believe
14:13	manutter	juhu_chapa: Ah, you need the :gen-class to compile the -main function, I forgot about that, sorry!
14:13	gtrak	I'm noticing it's too easy to reinvent stuff when there are elegant ways to do something. I'd love to see a use-case wiki feature added to clojuredocs, anyone thought about anything like that?
14:14	manutter	gtrak: the hard part is figuring out how to classify the use cases so you can find the one that matches what you want to do (or think you want to do, which isn't always the same thing ;)
14:15	gtrak	you can get pretty far with text search, but I see what you're saying
14:26	gtrak	I have a question about 'separate' in this code: https://github.com/amalloy/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj
14:26	gtrak	is using a for lazier than doseq? also, does the vec call defer evaluation?
14:27	hiredman	doseq is not lazy at all
14:27	amalloy	uh. a for is entirely different from doseq
14:27	amalloy	in that doseq doesn't return any results
14:27	hiredman	an vec builds a vector, so obviously not lazy at all
14:27	hiredman	and
14:27	gtrak	it builds a lazilypersistentvector, does that have any implications?
14:28	amalloy	no. but i never really understood LPV, so if anyone knows feel free to jump in and tell me about that
14:28	hiredman	vectors are not lazy
14:29	chouser	LPV doesn't really exist anymore
14:29	hiredman	it just has static methods for creating pvecs
14:30	chouser	It used to be a collection type, before transients I believe.
14:30	chouser	But I'm not sure it ever would have had anything to do with this question.
14:31	hiredman	the only things that are lazy are sequences constructed using lazy-seq
14:31	chouser	'separate' there is not in any way lazy, and couldn't be written using doseq without using some kind of mutable object.
14:31	chouser	gtrak: ^^^
14:33	chouser	it could have been written with loop/recur, which might be more effecient.
14:35	gtrak	more generally, how do you reason about how lazy something is?
14:35	hiredman	I just said
14:35	hiredman	the only things that are lazy are sequences constructed using lazy-seq
14:35	gtrak	map does that too, yes?
14:36	hiredman	why don't you check?
14:36	hiredman	(type (map ...))
14:36	gtrak	set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life
14:37	gtrak	,(type (map identity []))
14:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
14:37	amalloy	chouser: i think you're misreading the implementation of separate; it eagerly produces two sequences, both of which are (mostly) lazy
14:38	chouser	amalloy: ah, indeed. thanks for the correction.
14:39	amalloy	say, chouser, has any version of data.xml been actually released?
14:39	amalloy	it would be nice to have a 1.3-compatible replacement for prxml: 4clojure could finally get off 1.2.x
14:40	gtrak	so ok, the for creates a lazy seq, does running vec trigger the evaluation of it, whihc returns two lazy seqs (from the map calls)?
14:40	gtrak	that's what it looks like to me
14:41	hiredman	I do feeling like burning things down this morning
14:41	Raynes	hiredman: I can give you a list of things I'd like to see burned down.
14:45	amalloy	gtrak: yes
14:47	gtrak	amalloy, coolio
14:48	chouser	amalloy: no, none released. I was supposed to look at that this weekend.
14:48	chouser	played portal-2 instead.
14:48	amalloy	hah. wholeheartedly excused
14:48	amalloy	gtrak: you probably should look at the official https://github.com/flatland/useful rather than my fork. actually, my fork probably shouldn't exist
14:49	chouser	amalloy: I need to look at how we're handling comment, cdata, etc. elements, and glance at my todo list
14:49	chouser	then it's just docs. We're really pretty close.
14:50	gtrak	amalloy, yea, I was just curious and I saw an implementation of separate, followed it down the rabbit hole since a couple of folks I know were arguing about it
14:50	amalloy	great
14:51	gtrak	I also found out about group-by through that discussion
14:52	arohner	has anyone gotten swank running over heroku?
15:09	amalloy	chouser: well, let me know when you pick a format for representing comments and such; i'll probably want to add a sexp/prxml-ish conversion to that format
15:13	chouser	amalloy: ok. It was gread that prxml supported them -- I don't want it to be a regression moving to data.xml
15:13	chouser	great
15:15	amalloy	yeah, agreed. i wonder how you can do it with tag/attr/content - in theory you could just use a namespaced-keyword for the tag, but if you want namespaces to correspond to xmlns declarations, then...i dunno, metadata somewhere?
15:18	chouser	yeah, not sure yet.
15:24	arohner	has anyone got postgres working on heroku?
15:28	lobotomy	hmm, i finished my chess problem solver, and tried to make it multithreaded. run the first round separately, make an agent for each case on the first round, run all the agents recursively from their different starting points
15:28	technomancy	arohner: abedra wrote an article on it; it's in their official docs
15:28	lobotomy	is this a good way do to that?
15:28	arohner	technomancy: yeah, I'm having trouble connecting to the DB
15:28	arohner	I think I'm doing what the docs say, and it isn't working.
15:28	lobotomy	if it is, how can i make it actually work? :) my code seems to simply hang after a while
15:31	mprentice	lobotomy: the chess problem space is huge. that approach will have too many threads.
15:31	gtrak	lobotomy, you do know chess is pretty hard to compute fully, yes?
15:31	gtrak	mprentice, agents use a thread-pool
15:32	lobotomy	yeah, but i'm only making one agent per each choice of square on the _first_ round
15:32	mprentice	gtrak: oh, well, too many agents anyway
15:32	gtrak	yea
15:32	gtrak	lobotomy, well you make an agent... then you send work to it
15:32	lobotomy	in my example there's one queen and 2-3 of each other piece (but no pawns); so it's basically 64 agents. each agent puts the queen on a different square and then recurses with the rest
15:33	lobotomy	gtrak, as i said, i did that but then it hangs after 2836 solutions
15:34	gtrak	lobotomy, using send or send-off?
15:34	lobotomy	send
15:34	gtrak	hmm, well you can use visualvm to get a stack trace
15:34	lobotomy	thinking maybe i should somehow ensure there's at most say 2-3 agents running at the same time?
15:34	gtrak	lobotomy, I'm not sure 1 agent per square is a good mapping
15:35	lobotomy	is this doable easily with some core function or something, or should i keep track manually?
15:35	lobotomy	me neither, but it's the simplest one, so i just tried that :)
15:35	hiredman	something to keep in mind is sends and send-offs inside an agent action don't run until the action is completed
15:36	lobotomy	guess i should put the squares in a list and feed the first n squares of the list to n agents at a time, or something
15:38	lobotomy	but why does it hang after a handful of solutions?
15:38	robermann	hello. which is the default javadoc site for clojure's Java classes?
15:38	gtrak	lobotomy, to characterize the hang, you need a thread dump
15:38	lobotomy	if there's too many agents, i'd hope it would crash instead, or give some indication of the too-maniness
15:39	lobotomy	gtrak, fair enough. so this suddenly became complicated ;p
15:39	lobotomy	will check that out later, cheers
15:39	gtrak	generally how concurrency goes
15:42	amalloy	robermann: there's not a lot of javadoc for those
15:44	amalloy	and it's fairly rare that you'd need any. what are you looking for?
15:48	robermann	just trying to understand why (def aaa {:a 'a :a 'nnn } ) fail :) - well I know because fails, but I was thinking to check PersistentHashMap's javadoc
15:49	hiredman	robermann: what do you mean fails?
15:49	robermann	,(def aaa {:a 'a :a 'nnn } )
15:49	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :a>
15:49	robermann	the duplicate key
15:49	hiredman	robermann: and?
15:50	hiredman	seems like the reason it failed is pretty obvious
15:51	lobotomy	i think he's asking where that's documented
15:51	robermann	yes it is obvious :) but I was checking if the corresponding Javadoc documents it
15:51	robermann	should be http://pacific.mpi-cbg.de/javadoc/clojure/lang/PersistentArrayMap.html#createWithCheck%28java.lang.Object[]%29 ?
15:52	robermann	now I'm forcing to be in Java-mode
15:53	robermann	maybe it is a stupid expectation, but I was thinking that putting a key in a map should override an already existing one
15:54	robermann	as it is in java maps
15:54	cemerick	robermann: They do.
15:54	raek	assoc does that. you only get the exception for literals
15:54	hiredman	robermann: it will, but for literals it is generally considered a mistake, so it throws an error
15:54	cemerick	,(assoc {:a 5} :a 6)
15:54	clojurebot	{:a 6}
15:56	robermann	cool! yes it is generally a mistake, and I was just trying it. So is this check executed only on literals?
15:56	cemerick	exactly
15:56	cemerick	same with sets
15:56	cemerick	,#{5 5}
15:56	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: 5>
15:57	robermann	yes, sets are quite obviuos for me
15:57	cemerick	well, a map's keys are a set, so the same semantics should apply :-)
15:58	robermann	yes but in Java you override a key value, you don't get blocked in the insertion
15:59	cemerick	robermann: The same thing happens with assoc (see above). Java doesn't have map or set literals, so it doesn't need to contend with what to do in that circumstance.
16:01	TimMc	,#{5 (+ 1 4)}
16:01	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: 5>
16:02	robermann	yes. I was inquiring if this check of not duplicity ( https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentArrayMap.java#L67 ) is documented in javadoc
16:02	TimMc	set literals, not literals of sets
16:02	TimMc	s/of/in/
16:02	lazybot	<TimMc> set literals, not literals in sets
16:02	cemerick	Right, it's all values by the time the corresponding data structure is being built
16:04	cemerick	robermann: Probably not.
16:04	TimMc	cemerick: So, safer to do ##(set [5 (+ 1 4)])
16:04	lazybot	⇒ #{5}
16:04	cemerick	safer?
16:05	cemerick	oh, I see what you mean
16:05	TimMc	Yeah, if you are using a set literal that is not made of literal values.
16:05	robermann	ok thanks
16:06	TimMc	Sounds like that could really bite someone.
16:06	cemerick	Seems like a strange thing to worry about. If you end up getting an error you don't expect, then you probably aren't clear on what the offending expression is doing.
16:06	TimMc	Well, it isn't my place to surmise what use someone might have for sets.
16:07	cemerick	Just working around it by using `set` seems counterproductive. That's why the literals have that guard to begin with.
16:07	TimMc	That guard is intentional?
16:08	cemerick	Preventing the duplicate values in literal sets or keys of literal maps? Yes, certainly.
16:08	TimMc	Oh, I see -- it is in Clojure.
16:08	robermann	cemerick: when I have an error in Java, the first thing I do is to check its javadoc
16:08	TimMc	I think it makes perfect sense in ,aps.
16:08	TimMc	*maps
16:09	cemerick	robermann: Are you using the Clojure data structures from Java?
16:09	TimMc	,(doc #{}) :-P
16:09	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
16:10	TimMc	Where is the canonical definition for behavior of literals?
16:11	cemerick	Official documentation, anyway: http://clojure.org/reader
16:11	amalloy	&(doc read-string)
16:11	lazybot	⇒ "([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
16:11	cemerick	amalloy: smartass :-P
16:11	robermann	cemerick: no, I'm studying clojure, and knowing that its core is written in Java I was checking its javadoc
16:11	TimMc	heh
16:11	cemerick	robermann: ah; you'll find it to be very thin indeed :-)
16:11	amalloy	cemerick: a real smartass would have used $source read-string
16:11	amalloy	but this way i get to make the point that it's not really documented, so maybe you're right
16:12	TimMc	amalloy: You're just a fake smartass?
16:12	cemerick	There's a lot in the reader that isn't formally documented.
16:13	cemerick	TimMc: As am I, on both counts.
16:13	TimMc	I'm choosing to blame the weather for the latter.
16:14	robermann	maybe you could write an "internals clojure" book ! I should be one of your readers :D
16:15	jkkramer	i've been bitten by this: ##(apply hash-map [:foo "bar" :foo "baz"])
16:15	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: :foo
16:15	cemerick	robermann: We cover some of the undocumented bits in the book. Hardly "internals", but certainly some of the niceties (2r11, etc)
16:15	jkkramer	you can partition it up into vector pairs, but that's more typing
16:16	robermann	which book?
16:17	cemerick	robermann: http://oreilly.com/catalog/0636920013754/
16:17	TimMc	I suppose the workaround there is ##(into (hash-map) [[:foo "bar"] [:foo "baz"]])
16:17	lazybot	⇒ {:foo "baz"}
16:17	chouser	2r11 is documented
16:18	robermann	cool I bookmarked it!
16:18	TimMc	,2r11e10
16:18	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "11e10">
16:18	cemerick	chouser: look at that, it is! I don't think it was when I wrote that part in the book.
16:18	chouser	heh
16:18	TimMc	Hrmph, I can never keep number literal formats straight.
16:19	chouser	2r11 is also detailed on page 22 of http://joyofclojure.com/ :-)
16:20	cemerick	TimMc: That'd be a long binary string, but in any case, you can't use an explicit radix for decimals.
16:21	TimMc	,2r11
16:21	clojurebot	3
16:21	TimMc	,2r1.1
16:21	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 2r1.1>
16:22	TimMc	I see. And e notation turns it into a float?
16:23	TimMc	Wait, no -- I was imagining 1e9 notation in Clojure.
16:27	robermann	ah they are binary literals
16:28	cemerick	,36r9
16:28	clojurebot	9
16:28	TimMc	n-ary literals
16:28	cemerick	whoops
16:28	cemerick	,36r9z
16:28	clojurebot	359
16:28	kwertii	anyone have any experiences (good or bad) using CouchDB or Mongo as the backend persistent data store to a Clojure app?
16:29	cemerick	Both are commonly used.
16:30	kwertii	cemerick: but are they good or bad? common doesn't mean good..
16:31	robermann	chouser: by the way I discovered the "key duplicated error" when trying your "(str (build-move :from "e2" :to "e4"))" example (pag 205)
16:31	cemerick	kwertii: I mean, both data stores are used commonly with good results. Whether you prefer one or the other isn't related to Clojure; there are quality client libs for both.
16:31	kwertii	cemerick: ok, cool, thanks
16:31	cemerick	I prefer couch, but for reasons entirely unrelated to Clojure.
16:31	ibdknox	redis!
16:32	robermann	chouser: I tryied a (build-move :from "e2" :from "fake" :to "e4") move to see if what would happen
16:32	cemerick	Er, perhaps not entirely true -- I think there are a number of relevant parallels between the broad philosophies behind couch and Clojure.
16:33	kwertii	cemerick: the Mongo project's "couch vs mongo" page essentially says directly that the only reason to pick Mongo is if you need ultra-high performance at the expense of robustness
16:33	cemerick	kwertii: link?
16:34	kwertii	cemerick: http://www.mongodb.org/display/DOCS/Comparing+Mongo+DB+and+Couch+DB (ok, not directly, but that's what I got out of it at a glance)
16:35	kwertii	"if we had very high performance requirements we would use Mongo... for a problem with very high update rates, we would use Mongo... in contrast to the above, couch is better when lots of snapshotting is a requirement"
16:35	chouser	robermann: interesting.
16:35	cemerick	kwertii: That interpretation is probably not generous enough, but I won't argue with it.
16:35	kwertii	"Philosophically, Mongo is very oriented toward performance, at the expense of features that would impede performance. "
16:36	chouser	and it's written in C++, so you know it's balzing fast.
16:36	kwertii	"Problems requiring high update rates of objects are a great fit"
16:36	chouser	I meant blazing, but either will do.
16:36	scgilardi	one of those provocative faux typos...
16:37	chouser	we use mongo at work and are happy with it, afaik.
16:37	cemerick	Couch is moving towards an easily partitionable backend as well. BigCouch does that already today.
16:38	kwertii	cemerick: it seems (at a glance, haven't looked into it in depth) that if your application doesn't absolutely require the latest realtime data at every instant, you can use Couch replication to scale
16:39	cemerick	kwertii: True enough, and that's what bigcouch does. Rolling your own partitioning scheme is not fun, tho.
16:40	kwertii	my other question for those of you who are doing this.. it occurred to me that I can set a watch on a ref to a map or a record, update the map anywhere as a normal Clojure map, and rely on that watch to propagate the changes to the DB. is this reasonable?
16:40	TimMc	chouser: C++ isn't a cure-all for performance, of course. I remember the professor posting performance results by language for a semester project, and C++ came in dead last, with Python and Java in the lead. :-)
16:41	chouser	TimMc: I'm totally trolling. Feel free to read as much sarcasm into my statement as you'd like.
16:41	chouser	C++ apps are fast, except when they're not.
16:41	technomancy	what are you talking about; c++ is totally balzing fast
16:41	TimMc	chouser: Wasn't entirely sure.
16:41	cemerick	kwertii: very, yes. Functioning as a write-behind log, in that case.
16:42	arohner	kwertii: as long as you're ok with losing data sometimes
16:42	TimMc	chouser: It does tend to have a fast startup time. :-P
16:42	arohner	like on shutdown or quick power-off
16:42	chouser	TimMc: indeed
16:43	kwertii	cemerick: how do you handle the reverse case, changes in the DB that need to be propagated to the application? I haven't looked into Couch enough to know whether it has the concept of triggers. I imagine you could fire off a notice to your Clojure app saying "update record x" if it does, or periodically expire data structures somehow if it doesn't
16:43	TimMc	That's an interesting use-case for metadata.
16:43	technomancy	cemerick: best freudian slip I've seen in a while
16:44	cemerick	kwertii: look in the couch wiki for info on the _changes feed
16:44	TimMc	technomancy: While reading out loud the other day I accidentally said "penetrate the thong" (throng)
16:45	TimMc	That was the best I've done in a while.
16:45	kwertii	arohner: yeah, that's not ideal, of course, but making it more robust is a diminishing-returns problem.. you could never re-use the map and reload it from the DB every time, I suppose, at a huge performance hit that's probably not worth it unless you're trading stocks in realtime or something like that, in which case you'd have practically unlimited resources for hardware anyway
16:45	technomancy	this is even better since it's an example of the speed/consistency trade-off
16:45	kwertii	cemerick: so it can do that.. cool, thanks
16:46	cemerick	kwertii: yeah, you can abuse couch as a message queue pretty easily
16:47	kwertii	cemerick: ideally I'd like an AllegroCache like solution where the db is fused transparently to the data structures
16:48	cemerick	kwertii: Of course, people have spent lifetimes pursuing that.
16:48	kwertii	heh
16:48	kwertii	and for only the price of a new sports car plus a warrant for your firstborn child, Franz will sell it to you (in CL only)
16:49	cemerick	Plus a new sports car each year, of course.
16:50	robermann	bye
16:52	hiredman	kwertii: those kind of solutions tend to be in the cache space, not the db space, inifinispan provides a more or less transparent shared concurrent hashmap
17:05	acagle``	/
17:16	jweiss	is there a way to read from an input stream and write to a file without using the verbose java way with the byte array or similar?
17:17	amalloy	jweiss: clojure.java.io/copy
17:18	jweiss	amalloy: aha, thanks
17:26	hiredman	~clojure
17:26	clojurebot	clojure is the bestest programming language available.
17:26	hiredman	~clojure
17:26	clojurebot	clojure is cheating
17:26	hiredman	~botsnack
17:26	clojurebot	Thanks, but I prefer chocolate
17:26	hugod	do dynamic vars inherit thread specific bindings in 1.3?
17:29	hiredman	hugod: only via send, send-off, and possible future and pmap
17:30	hiredman	only if you create or send work to the thread via some clojure mechanism
17:30	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L1885
17:31	michaelr525	anyone knows whether amazon is charging for the requests when uploading files to s3 from ec2 in the same region? I know they don't charge for data transfer..
17:31	hugod	hiredman: thanks
17:40	hugod	writing library code that works on 1.2 and 1.3 is "interesting"
17:51	cemerick	michaelr525: all transfer in is free
17:52	michaelr525	hmm
17:52	michaelr525	I'm asking about ec2->s3
17:53	michaelr525	Not home->s3
17:55	michaelr525	that's what written on their site: "There is no Data Transfer charge for data transferred between Amazon EC2 and Amazon S3 within the same Region"
17:55	michaelr525	But nothing like this is written regarding requests
17:55	cemerick	michaelr525: Scroll down to "data transfer pricing" http://aws.amazon.com/s3/pricing/
17:56	cemerick	oh, per request pricing you mean
17:56	michaelr525	yep
17:56	cemerick	The per-request pricing applies no matter where you're operating from AFAIK.
17:57	michaelr525	that's what I thought, just wanted to make sure.
17:57	srid	what is the buzz-word replacement for saying "clojure". eg: instead of I saying "here is a clojure-based sample app demonstrating our enterprise feature XYZ" I want to say it without frightening folks using the word "clojure". perhaps, i could include the word JVM or even Java as these are enterprise-friendly.
17:58	amalloy	s/clojure-based/<intentionally left blank>
17:58	amalloy	seems like if you don't want to mention clojure there's not much need to put any words in that space at all
17:58	zilti	Maybe "JVM-based functional sample app"?
17:58	srid	one alternative, yes. but I want to capitalize on this somehow :-)
17:59	amalloy	"sample app we wrote in five minutes instead of five weeks"
17:59	hiredman	you want to capitalize on clojure without saying clojure?
17:59	zilti	Haha nice
17:59	hiredman	sounds dumb
17:59	srid	zilti: the word 'java' is missing though. (folks may not understand what 'jvm' means)
17:59	cemerick	"Here's our app. It runs on Java."
17:59	amalloy	just tell them about this cool language that's a great replacement for java, Erujolc
18:00	srid	i have mentioned clojure several times in our meetings, and the response like "meh".
18:00	amalloy	then, months later, when you unveil clojure, they will be astonished
18:00	zilti	Another reason for maybe not studying computer sciences: You'll have to convince some dumb businessmen knowing nothing but economy theories.
18:00	zilti	s/convince/convince all your life
18:00	lazybot	<zilti> Another reason for maybe not studying computer sciences: You'll have to convince all your life some dumb businessmen knowing nothing but economy theories.
18:01	zilti	Nice bot
18:01	coopernurse	srid: so is the real issue that you need a way to sell the use of clojure to your org? or something else?
18:03	srid	coopernurse: i am using clojure (in a sample app) to demonstrate a feature X. when I message it, people respond positively to "X" but respond with a "meh" to clojure part. just wondering if I can change that somehow. i'd probably go with "java/jvm based sample app"
18:03	srid	clojure is not used for anything else, btw. it is just a silly infatuation of mine.
18:14	coopernurse	srid: gotcha. if it's not critical that they buy off on clojure, then I agree with "jvm based sample app" is good.
18:14	kwertii	I'd say "Java virtual machine based," since they probably won't know what a JVM is, but they've very likely been exposed to a decade and a half of marketing for Java
18:15	coopernurse	if you want to convert "meh" to "wow!" then I guess you'd have to show them benefits that they care about (not sure if the meh folks are dev or biz)
18:16	kwertii	or, as suggested, leave out that detail altogether -- if there's not some specific reason why they would care about what language it's in (e.g. they're a huge, deeply invested Microsoft partner), they probably won't care
18:16	coopernurse	right, if it's all sufficiently irrelevant, then I suppose you can just say "look at my demo of feature X"
18:51	ShreeMulay	hey everyone. I've got a question regarding the usage of "include-css" from hiccup.page-helpers in my web development project. Where do I actually place that folder in context of my leiningen prroject?
18:53	ibdknox	ShreeMulay: depends on how you set up your resources route
18:54	ibdknox	ShreeMulay: if you're using noir, anywhere inside of resources/public/ would work, though it's usually best practice to do something like resources/public/css/
20:28	aaelony	I have a future named m1. If I do @m1, I see the future and the data I want to extract. How can I extract the data though? e.g. (#<core$future_call$reify__5382@71d382ab: ["2110401" "426"]> #<core$future_call$reify__5382@7527e2ee: ["2110402" "425"]>)
20:28	aaelony	I'd like to extract the vectors inside the future
20:29	aaelony	any help appreciated
20:29	hiredman	you have a future inside some other derefable thing
20:30	aaelony	not sure what you mean.
20:30	hiredman	,(let [x (future (future 1))] (Thread/sleep 5000) @x)
20:30	clojurebot	#<core$future_call$reify__5733@54a99b: 1>
20:31	hiredman	,(let [x (atom (future 1))] (Thread/sleep 5000) @x)
20:31	clojurebot	#<core$future_call$reify__5733@10a35db: 1>
20:31	aaelony	I did this to create it:
20:31	hiredman	you are nesting things and not derefing enough to denest
20:31	aaelony	(def m1 (future (get-metric-timeseries "Users" [testfile testfile2])))
20:31	hiredman	what does get-metric-timeseries with out the future result in?
20:31	aaelony	this will go get metric "Users" in all the test files
20:32	aaelony	which I want to happen asynchronously since I have many metrics.
20:32	hiredman	I don't care what it is, what is the result type?
20:32	aaelony	(class m1)
20:32	aaelony	clojure.core$future_call$reify__5382
20:32	hiredman	no
20:32	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:33	aaelony	not sure what you mean.
20:33	hiredman	(type (get-metric-timeseries "Users" [testfile testfile2]))
20:33	hiredman	aaelony: I am not sure if you can be helped then
20:33	aaelony	clojure.lang.LazySeq
20:34	hiredman	(map type (get-metric-timeseries "Users" [testfile testfile2]))
20:34	hiredman	you are creating a future with contains a lazy sequence of futures
20:34	aaelony	(clojure.core$future_call$reify__5382 clojure.core$future_call$reify__5382)
20:35	hiredman	each level of future will need to be deref'ed
20:36	aaelony	I see.
20:37	aaelony	Suppose I want to look inside N files for a particular key as a future, and I want the future to return a sequence of all the values it found for that key.
20:37	aaelony	I will want one future for each key.
20:40	aaelony	The irony is that the future I have contains exactly what I am looking for, it's just buried in there.
20:41	aaelony	thx anyways, I'll tinker away
20:47	humourous	is (apply conj [1 2] [3 4]) better than (vec (concat [1 2] [3 4])) to get a vector form concatenation? (or something else?)
20:48	brehaut	,(into [1 2] [3 4])
20:48	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
20:51	humourous	thank you
21:17	devn	,(map #(apply str (repeat % "q")) (range 0 10))
21:17	clojurebot	("" "q" "qq" "qqq" "qqqq" ...)
21:17	devn	better way to write that?
21:19	devn	,(set print-length 20)
21:19	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$set>
21:19	hiredman	,(iterate str "q")
21:19	clojurebot	("q" "q" "q" "q" "q" ...)
21:19	hiredman	hmmm
21:19	hiredman	,(iterate (partial str "q"))
21:19	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$iterate>
21:19	hiredman	,(iterate (partial str "q") "")
21:19	clojurebot	("" "q" "qq" "qqq" "qqqq" ...)
21:19	brehaut	,(let [qs (apply str (repeat 10 "q"))] (map #(.substring qs 0 %) (range 10)))
21:19	clojurebot	("" "q" "qq" "qqq" "qqqq" ...)
21:19	devn	,(set! print-length 20)
21:19	clojurebot	20
21:20	brehaut	(for a different value of better)
21:20	devn	brehaut: a bit too declarative, no?
21:20	hiredman	,(iterate (partial str "q") "")
21:20	clojurebot	("" "q" "qq" "qqq" "qqqq" ...)
21:20	devn	ah-ha!
21:20	devn	beautiful
21:20	devn	thanks hiredman
21:20	bhenry1	nice
21:20	brehaut	devn: hiredmans is better, but i think the substring is more space efficient for large ns
21:20	devn	brehaut: i should really only be going to about 6 in general
21:20	devn	so tiny is preferred
21:21	devn	it's for JFugue -- (q)uarter note
21:22	devn	hiredman: i've actually never seen partial and iterate used like that -- really cool
21:22	Tcepsa	,(map #(
21:22	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
21:23	devn	there must be at least 50 ways to write it...
21:23	devn	at least...
21:24	Tcepsa	,(map #(apply str (take % (repeat "q"))) (range 0 10))
21:24	clojurebot	("" "q" "qq" "qqq" "qqqq" ...)
21:24	Tcepsa	for yet another ;-)
21:24	gfrlog	devn: http://twitter.com/#!/DEVOPS_BORAT/status/109622560559333376
21:24	devn	?
21:24	devn	bahaha
21:25	devn	"I work on new language call Quattro. If want to do any thing, is exactly 4 way of do it."
21:25	gfrlog	:)
21:25	devn	gfrlog: <3
21:26	devn	obvious now given hiredman's solution, just another way of writing it:
21:26	devn	,(iterate #(str "q" %) "")
21:26	clojurebot	("" "q" "qq" "qqq" "qqqq" ...)
21:26	devn	perhaps a bit much in the syntax department, though -- doesn't really give you anything...
21:26	Tcepsa	(though looking more closely, I'm pretty sure mine is just a more verbose version of the original ~wry grin~)
21:27	devn	:)
21:27	devn	I have no doubt -- but there seems to be a limit to amount of shaving before all you're left with is a brittle twig
21:27	brehaut	or at least a very cold yak
21:27	devn	expressive but small -- hiredman's seems quite good in that department
21:28	devn	haha
21:28	devn	dinner time! then back to annoying my girlfriend with algorithmically generated muzak! :)
21:28	devn	bbiab
21:29	Tcepsa	devn: Is the code available anywhere? That sounds like something I would enjoy looking at.
21:29	devn	Tcepsa: it's really nothing special but yes I'll put it up this evening
21:30	devn	It's just doing some really rudimentary part-writing techniques
21:30	Tcepsa	devn: Thanks! I've tinkered with JFugue a little but never really got anywhere...
21:30	devn	to generate a simple progression and then play some passing tones with it in a sort of constrained "must-be-a-kind-of-melody" way
21:30	Tcepsa	Neat
21:31	devn	Tcepsa: I keep getting stuck at building small first and then trying to build a nice abstraction
21:31	devn	they all end up feeling too constrained or too random to be expressive
21:32	devn	like (generate-layer (with-instrument :kalimba (generate-notes 16)))
21:32	Tcepsa	"Oh hey, if I make this a protocol then I could...!"
21:32	devn	or somesuch kind of thing
21:32	devn	I don't have a nice sequencer-level abstraction which I think is the key
21:32	devn	need a nice way to sequence parts...
21:32	Tcepsa	:key :F#
21:33	Tcepsa	Ahhh, yeah, that makes sense
21:33	devn	on the nth note of layer 1, play from the 3rd to the 7th note of layer 2's first part
21:33	devn	and repeat it 10 times
21:33	devn	that ends up very verbose and not magical enough
21:33	Tcepsa	Hmmm...
21:33	devn	but i suppose this is why composition is hard :)
21:34	devn	the other thing i really desire is a way to "capture" a sequence in order to train
21:34	devn	supervised learning with midi sequences
21:35	devn	anyway, gotta run, Tcepsa drop me a private message and ill ping you a link to the github or at the very least a gist of some ideas
21:35	Tcepsa	Oh I definitely want to chat more with you later; that is something else I have been noodling on
21:35	devn	Tcepsa: :) we should pair! i'll bother you later. ciao
21:36	Tcepsa	Bye!
21:52	jhickner	Hello good sirs. In ClojureScript, is there a way to console.log a clojure datatype in such a way that you can see the contents, like at the repl? A standard console.log of a vector displays as 'cljs.core.Vector' or similar.
21:55	alandipert	jhickner: (js/console.log (.strobj my-obj))
21:55	alandipert	jhickner: it's a nasty impl. dependent way, and i've only used it with maps... but it might work
21:55	jhickner	ok thanks I'll give it a try
21:58	alandipert	or rather, (.log js/console (.strobj my-obj))
21:59	jhickner	it looks like it works for maps only. vectors and lists are translated to undefined in js
21:59	jhickner	looks like it's time for a pretty-print util function
22:01	alandipert	ah, there's (.array my-vec)
22:02	alandipert	see also http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/eba1454e1984bee0 and https://gist.github.com/1141054 and http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-37 (whew)
22:05	alandipert	jhickner: any luck?
22:06	jhickner	.strobj works for maps, and it looks like .array works for vectors
22:08	jhickner	nice, Kevin's functions at the end of that discussion look like a good start
22:08	jhickner	thanks @alandipert!
22:09	alandipert	np
22:12	solussd	what common interface do vector and list share? How can I tell if something is a indexed sorted thing?
22:12	gfrlog	sequential?
22:12	gfrlog	,(map sequential? [[] #{} {} '() ""])
22:12	clojurebot	(true false false true false)
22:13	solussd	that'll do nicely
22:19	donpdonp	i have a software package with a project.clj - how do i compile/build the project?
22:20	coopernurse	donpdonp: do you have lein installed? then you can do: lein run or lein jar
22:20	alandipert	donpdonp: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
22:20	donpdonp	coopernurse, alandipert: got it, thx!!
22:42	solussd	hmm, can't apply a Record. (apply MyRecord. [args])
22:44	brehaut	solussd: classes arent functions / ifns
22:44	amalloy	more specifically, neither are constructors
22:44	solussd	yeah… (apply make-myRecord [args]). :D
22:48	TimMc	,(sequential? nil)
22:48	clojurebot	false
22:48	TimMc	,(sequential? (seq [1]))
22:48	clojurebot	true
22:50	solussd	records just don't feel right… they feel OOPy
22:50	amalloy	yesss if you don't have a clear reason don't use them
22:51	solussd	they exist pretty much soley to implement protocols, right?
22:51	brehaut	they are also faster than maps if you have a constant set of keys
22:52	amalloy	yes, what brehaut said. a constant and known-at-compile-time set of keys
22:52	solussd	I have a couple protocols that I need to implement for data stored in maps, but not for all maps, so now I have records
22:52	solussd	yeah, these are maps with certain keys
22:52	solussd	they'd be structs if I were still allowed to use them. :D
22:52	solussd	I like protocols though. I like how they're inside out from protocols in other languages
22:52	amalloy	solussd: but if (apply MyRecord. args) worked, it wouldn't be performant, which is one reason it doesn't exist
22:53	srid	jkkramer: so any idea on the null pointer exception when running preprocess.clj? the stacktrace doesn't tell me the .clj/line information.
22:53	brehaut	solussd: an important distinction between records and OO is that a) they never implement data hiding, inheritance, recieve message and are not namespaces for methods
22:53	solussd	yep. That's what I like. I like how clojure encourages implementation to live in functions not class hierarchies
22:54	solussd	and if I want to share implementation I can do it w/ protocols + extend
22:54	amalloy	usually when people want to do crazy stuff like (apply MyRecord. args) or (into (MyRecord. nil nil nil) m), they're just using records for fun and to make their lives harder
22:55	solussd	amalloy: I didn't really want to do it, just noticed it didn't work.
22:55	jkkramer	srid: well, there's no -main fn in that ns. for now i interactively eval the parts in the commented-out area to refresh the project graph
22:56	Tcepsa	Records: kinda-sorta analogous to "pure" JavaBeans?
22:56	solussd	record fields are immutable, right? I guess I haven't tried to set! one yet
22:57	solussd	I like to think of them as maps I can have implement protocols, and nothing more.
22:57	srid	jkkramer: got it; running fetch-all-repos now
22:57	srid	ah, it dumped json to stdout
22:58	amalloy	solussd: they are immutable, yeah. if you use deftype instead you can ask for mutable fields if you want
22:58	solussd	i don't. :)
22:58	jkkramer	srid: see the commented parts at the end. each def/defn in that area is a cumulative step
23:00	jkkramer	that may not work out well :)
23:00	srid	jkkramer: isn't the idea to execute all of the sexps in the (comment block?
23:01	jkkramer	srid: yes, but there's one broken project entry that i edit out by hand; that's mentioned by not included
23:02	srid	clojure-slick-rogue
23:02	jkkramer	right
23:02	srid	perhaps I should filter it out from - what - `github-projects` list?
23:02	jkkramer	that works
23:03	srid	btw, how long is this supposed to take? 15 mins, right?
23:03	jkkramer	the problem is really with my limited project parser
23:03	jkkramer	fetching the repos is quick. fetching the project.clj/pom.xml files form github takes a while...didn't time it
23:04	jkkramer	15-30 mins i think
23:04	srid	'fetching the repos' == cloning the git repo?
23:04	srid	ok, just project names.
23:05	srid	"/Users/tin/src/clj/clojuresphere/clojars/" <-- hmm. i need to rsync clojars first, it seems
23:05	jkkramer	it does actually pull down the latest github push date, so future updates could take that into account
23:05	jkkramer	yes
23:07	srid	jkkramer: are the .jar files really required? (else, i can skip them for faster rsync?)
23:08	jkkramer	srid: they are not. my rsync-fu is weak so i just grabbed everything
23:10	srid	"- *.jar" ... runs much faster now.
23:11	srid	clojars has static metadata, what a relief -- in pypi (python) one has to use xmlrpc
23:11	brehaut	xmlrpc is the pits
23:11	amalloy	brehaut: i hear it's a necessary evil
23:12	brehaut	sadly
23:12	amalloy	~rimshot
23:12	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:12	amalloy	sigh
23:12	brehaut	no snack for the bot today
23:14	amalloy	clojurebot: rimshot is <reply> Badum, ching
23:14	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
23:16	brehaut	id be curious how much evil has been propogated due to python having xmlrpc support in the stdlib
23:20	srid	python had worse problems. one has to run a script to get metadata such as project dependencies (that's what I do for pypm). this is being addressed recently. http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/09/12/static-metadata-for-distutils/
23:21	solussd	how do you check if a instance of a record is of a given record type?
23:22	brehaut	,(instance? String "abc")
23:22	clojurebot	true
23:23	solussd	thx, kept trying to use isa?
23:23	solussd	keep forgetting, record == class
23:30	srid	heh. writing back to clojure source (project_graph.clj.gz) instead of using a database.
23:32	brehaut	srid are you importing the resulting file or just reading it?
23:34	srid	not me, jkkramer's project (clojuresphere) .. and it seems to (read ...) it
23:34	srid	i wonder why i'm running preprocess.clj at all, when it is already in git.
23:34	jhickner	ok, so after some screwing around, this seems to work pretty well for converting clj nested datastructures to js: https://gist.github.com/1199700
23:36	jhickner	at least for maps and sequentials. it doesn't handle sets yet
23:36	brehaut	jhickner: any reason you wouldnt just use a json lib?
23:37	jhickner	this would be for passing structures to js functions
23:37	jhickner	functions that take object or array args, for instance
23:38	jkkramer	srid: cool. sorry for the goose chase, i thought maybe you wanted cutting-edge project data or something
23:38	srid	i only had to define default PORT.
23:39	srid	i wonder why you are not using 'lein ring server'? it auto restarts the server on file changes.
23:39	jkkramer	i use swank, which can pick up changes after just evaling forms
23:39	amalloy	jhickner: this is not a unique thing to want to do. someone has surely already written this library; i think that's brehaut's point
23:40	jhickner	I agree, I've been looking.
23:40	brehaut	amalloy: once again making sense of my gibberish
23:40	brehaut	clojure.contrib.json and clj-json are the two main candidates i recall
23:40	amalloy	brehaut: this seems to be a cljs context
23:41	amalloy	and i don't think those really work for cljs
23:41	srid	jkkramer: is the plan to eventually integrate it to clojars?
23:41	brehaut	oh right
23:44	user317_	is there a way to add a local .jar file as a project dependency
23:45	jkkramer	srid: i'd like to yeah
23:47	amalloy	user317_: the mechanism starts with (1) Realize "oh wait, I didn't really want to do that"
23:47	user317_	well, i depend on this jar file thats released by interactive brokers
23:47	user317_	not sure how to get around it, i cant really add it to a public repository
23:48	technomancy	user317_: if you are a solo developer you can get away with mvn install:install-file, if you are on a team then you need to set up an archiva or nexus server
23:48	user317_	technomancy: i am han solo :)
23:49	user317_	technomancy: i take mvn is a maven thing?
23:49	technomancy	user317_: just add it to project.clj and run lein deps; it'll spit out an error message containing the mvn invocation that will put it in your local repo
23:52	user317_	technomancy: i am a little slow :) do i add "mvn install:jtsclient.jar" to the :dependencies vector in project.clj?
23:52	technomancy	user317_: no, just add it as if it were yet another jar on clojars
23:53	technomancy	[mygroup/myid "1.0.0"]