#clojure – 2011-09-02

2011-09-02

00:34	skelternet	(doc sleep)
00:34	clojurebot	Huh?
00:36	amalloy	$javadoc Thread sleep
00:36	lazybot	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Thread.html#sleep(long)
00:49	jli	ibdknox: I might have tiny patches for cljs-watch. how do you like them?
00:49	ibdknox	jli: for what exactly?
00:49	ibdknox	jli: and pull requests will be fine :)
00:52	jli	ibdknox: nothing real yet. bthe current java heap options prevent it from running on my laptop with only 2g ram
00:53	ibdknox	I just used the same options that clojurescript used I believe
00:53	jli	yeah, I had the same problem there. it's just a performance optimization for long-running programs, right?
01:03	ibdknox	jli: it's the overall amount of memory the heap can take up, it's likely important if you're compiling a large project, where the heap might get quite large
01:12	MasseR	What's square root named in clojure?
01:13	MasseR	Just the java version, Math/sqrt?
01:13	jli	MasseR: yes
01:14	MasseR	Ok
02:30	jblomo	what's the naming convention for a constant?
02:32	jblomo	what if I only want a Var to be dynamic during testing
03:08	raek	jblomo: vars are usually constants, so no special naming
03:09	raek	jblomo: I think there is something like 'with-redefs' in Clojure 1.3 that you can use in tests. it replaces the root binding, so the var does not need to be dynamic
03:10	jblomo	ah cool, makes sense. thanks
05:43	jedahu	I have a macro problem
05:43	jedahu	http://paste.lisp.org/+2O01
05:43	jedahu	I need to aot compile a gen-class definition
05:44	jedahu	this works fine except when gen-class is nested in another macro
05:45	jedahu	any ideas?
05:45	raek	jedahu: try `(do (gen-class ...) (defn ...))
05:46	raek	otherwise the top let form in the macro throws away the gen-class code
05:46	jedahu	aha!
05:46	jedahu	thankyousomuch! :-)
05:46	raek	jedahu: use macroexpand-1 or macroexpand to se what your macro does
05:47	raek	,(macroexpand-1 '(when condition expr1 expr2))
05:47	clojurebot	(if condition (do expr1 expr2))
05:48	jedahu	I used both but didn't twig to what they were telling me
05:48	jedahu	end of a long day :-)
06:17	lnostdal_	classes can't be used as a test-constant in case?
06:18	lnostdal_	seems odd; not knowing java very well, a class is constant isn't it?
06:18	lnostdal_	e.g. (case (type []) clojure.lang.PersistentVector (println "hi"))
06:19	bendlas``	lnostdal_: I noticed that too, a few days ago
06:20	bendlas``	One reason might be, that instead of class switches, one should use protocols
06:20	bendlas``	anyway, you can do (case (.getName (type [])) "clojure.lang.PersistentVector" ..)
06:21	lnostdal_	hah, nice hack there :)
06:40	ambrosebs	have some fun playing with relational arithmatic with core.logic https://github.com/frenchy64/Logic-Starter/wiki/Arithmatic
06:41	michaelr525	hello!
07:05	clgv	lnostdal_: another way is to use cond and instance? see ##(doc instance?)
07:05	lazybot	⇒ "([c x]); Evaluates x and tests if it is an instance of the class c. Returns true or false"
07:08	pigeons	I'm not a dev, but want to try someone's project, I'm on debian and have the "clojure" package installed. Project comes with a project.clj file. How do I build it? Thanks ;)
07:08	lnostdal_	ah, yeah, clgv
07:08	clgv	ambrosebs: how about arithmetic? ;)
07:08	ambrosebs	clgv: ...
07:09	ambrosebs	live and learn
07:09	clgv	pigeons: install leiningien and do a lein uberjar and then sart it like a jar
07:09	pigeons	thanks!
07:09	clgv	pigeons: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/README.md
07:10	clgv	ambrosebs: where is aleph on that page? ;)
07:11	clgv	I want to add multiples of infinity ^^
07:18	ambrosebs	new link https://github.com/frenchy64/Logic-Starter/wiki/Arithmetic :)
07:18	ambrosebs	sigh
07:21	clgv	:D
08:13	aleonhardt	call me mad, but i've been trying to get clojure to work with matlab via JVM bridge. that is, i define java classes with gen-class and try to instantiate them from matlab.
08:14	aleonhardt	doesn't work at all, though.
08:14	aleonhardt	using lein to produce an uberjar, matlab doesn't want to find my generated classes.
08:14	aleonhardt	jar works from java, scala, groovy, mirah...
08:15	aleonhardt	haven't been able to pinpoint the problem. one apparent issue seems to be that matlab can't import clojure.lang.RT for whatever reason.
08:16	aleonhardt	does anyone have any idea where to continue looking?
08:16	ordnungswidrig1	aleonhardt: which jvm version does matlab use?
08:16	aleonhardt	ordnungswidrig1: let me check.
08:17	kephale	aleonhardt: if you're on OS X matlab uses the apple JVM, other OSes it uses a built in JVM
08:17	kephale	and you have to change it manually somehow, but i forgot those details
08:17	ordnungswidrig1	maybe it's due do classfile version or like that.
08:17	aleonhardt	Java 1.6.0_04 with Sun Microsystems Inc. Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM mixed mode
08:17	aleonhardt	i've set the JVM to my system one, using MATLAB_JAVA.
08:18	ordnungswidrig1	aleonhardt: that should be fine for clojure. what is the exact error message from matlab?
08:19	aleonhardt	ordnungswidrig1: it's fairly generic. "??? Error using ==> import Import argument 'org.bla.MyTest' cannot be found or cannot be imported." -- unfortunately.
08:19	aleonhardt	interestingly, clojure.lang.Compiler, clojure.lang.Var, etc. import without hiccups -- clojure.lang.RT, though, can't be found.
08:20	aleonhardt	but that may be irrelevant.
08:20	aleonhardt	as i said, using gen-class, not invoke.
08:20	ordnungswidrig1	hmm
08:21	ordnungswidrig1	I don't know matlab, so I think I cannot help any further.
08:21	aleonhardt	thanks anyway.
08:22	kephale	hrm… boots matlab
08:22	aleonhardt	it's odd: the jar works from any JVM-using environment. groovy shell, scala shell, java applications. with matlab -- even using system JVM! -- it simply dies.
08:23	aleonhardt	kephale: hey, that'd be wonderful. if you can get even the tiniest clojure class to work, then I at least know that it's my set-up.
08:26	kephale	you get that error on a "javaaddpath" call?
08:30	aleonhardt	kephale: nope. javaaddpath('/path/to/package.jar') runs fine.
08:30	aleonhardt	it's the actual import statement that fails.
08:35	aleonhardt	i'm on R2008b, for what it's worth.
08:40	pigeons	clgv: thanks for helping this newbie. I can't get the lein generated uberjar to work yet, some manifest signature and classpath issues, but I can run the project just fine with "lein run", and that's all I need for now
08:40	clgv	pigeons: good :)
08:42	clgv	How can I define a project neutral way to detect whether I am within a jar or not?
08:42	kephale	aleonhardt: well, i can confirm clojure.lang.Compiler loads fine
08:42	clgv	previously I checked for one of my clj files. but that wont work in a different project.
08:43	kephale	but i have a cannot be found error for importing the user-defined class
08:47	aleonhardt	kephale: got disconnected. any luck?
08:48	kephale	i have clojure.lang.Compiler loaded
08:48	kephale	but matlab can't even find the user-defined class
08:50	aleonhardt	alright, so it's a real problem...
08:52	kephale	i dont get the RT issue though
08:52	aleonhardt	interesting.
08:53	aleonhardt	hm, i'm pretty sure that i don't know enough about java classloader stuff to get anywhere. damn shame.
08:53	kephale	but, depending what you're doing in matlab, you might be able to work the other way
08:53	kephale	and have clojure call matlab with matlabcontrol
08:55	aleonhardt	in this case, unfortunately not. i'm writing a matlab toolbox wrapping a bunch of clojure functions.
08:56	kephale	mmm… well if you figure it out post it somewhere/here, i'm probably going to have to get this running before long as well : P
08:57	aleonhardt	will do. thanks for your help!
08:58	kephale	good luck
09:09	pyr	damn you clojure, now i have to gain tomcat knowledge
09:09	pyr	i have successfully avoided that for 10 years
09:11	manutter	hmm, is there a #tomcat channel
09:12	pyr	manutter: i'm sure there is :)
09:12	manutter	I may need that myself some day soon
09:44	michaelr525	pyr: why tomcat?
09:46	michaelr525	why not some lightweight alternative such as http://tjws.sourceforge.net/ or winstone?
09:58	pyr	michaelr525: good question
09:58	pyr	i want good mechanisms for pushing a simple (ring) webapp to multiple servers
10:01	pyr	michaelr525: seems like winstone is out because it hosts a single webapp perserver
10:03	coopernu_	pyr: perhaps jetty?
10:04	pyr	is that a general recommendation, to stay away from tomcat for deploys ?
10:04	chewbranca	I need to stop programming ruby in clojure, I find myself making lots of little utility functions and comprising primary functions out of those utilities, which I don't think is the clojure way
10:04	pyr	sorry to go a bit off topic
10:04	pyr	(even though it's directly related to clojure)
10:05	coopernu_	pyr: tomcat is totally fine -- it just sounds like you wanted to avoid it
10:05	chewbranca	although, it is beneficial for getting familiar with things, make something small work, move onto the next bit, and once you get these small bits working, recombine them into something bigger and refactor
10:05	coopernu_	jetty has less configuration
10:05	coopernu_	both can host multiple war files, which sounds like one of your requirements
10:06	michaelr525	i'm also thinking what servlet container to use for scalable web app
10:06	michaelr525	..
10:07	chewbranca	how much do you guys break apart functionality? so for instance right now I'm writing a function that will split a block of text on newlines, and then it will split up the words for each line, right now I have a split-lines function, split-words function and a split text function that basically does (map #(split-words %) (split-lines text))
10:08	coopernu_	chewbranca: that seems reasonable
10:09	coopernu_	michaelr525: tell me more about scalable. are you doing a normal webapp, or are you using websockets/comet/long polling
10:09	pyr	coopernu_: i'm not trying to avoid tomcat in particular
10:10	michaelr525	i made a rule for myself that a function should express genrally just one idea
10:10	pyr	coopernu_: i'm not really trying to avoid anything,really
10:10	chewbranca	coopernu_: ok cool, so basically having wrapper functions isn't necessarily frowned upon, I guess it depends on whether you want to use those pieces again
10:10	coopernu_	pyr: ok, well tomcat is certainly stable
10:10	michaelr525	coopernu_: normal
10:10	coopernu_	chewbranca: yep, I think for clojure, small functions are good. easy to test
10:11	chewbranca	michaelr525: typically I agree, but is it worth doing (defn split-words [line] (split line #"\s+"))?
10:12	coopernu_	michaelr525: ok, then jetty or tomcat would both be fine. if you're using HttpSessions, then you might look at tomcat + this session store: http://code.google.com/p/memcached-session-manager/
10:12	michaelr525	sure, it let's you write the program in english like language
10:12	coopernu_	another option is to punt and use a PaaS offering like GAE or heroku
10:12	coopernu_	or elastic beanstalk
10:12	chewbranca	ok I'll agree with that, just seems like clojure gives you enough expressive power that actually declaring the function is almost as verbose as the function itself
10:14	pyr	coopernu_: yeah looks like jetty is very interesting too
10:14	chouser	maybe (def word-boundry #"\s+") ... (split line word-boundry)
10:14	coopernu_	pyr: yes, at this point they're more similar than different. jetty has a history of being easier to embed/smaller. e.g. ring bundles it as a dev dependency. tomcat is bigger
10:15	coopernu_	but in a production environment that isn't a consideration
10:15	pyr	yes
10:15	pyr	even if i was using jetty
10:15	pyr	i still wouldn't use the embedded version but war deploys
10:15	coopernu_	right
10:16	pyr	much easier to integrate with jenkins
10:16	coopernu_	ah, do you plan on hot deploying from jenkins to your app servers?
10:17	pyr	probably for staging
10:18	coopernu_	ok
10:18	pyr	production will pull from blobstore and use pallet most likely
10:18	pyr	i don't want auto deploys to production, never a great idea :)
10:18	pyr	but still want one click
10:19	coopernu_	cool, I wasn't familiar with pallet
10:19	pyr	pallet is going to be really big
10:19	coopernu_	googling..
10:19	pyr	it's the first all in one tool for cloud orchestration, scaling, command and control and configuration management
10:20	pyr	(in clojure, mind you!)
10:20	coopernu_	yeah, I'm reading the github readme.. looks like chef or puppet, but written in clojure
10:21	pyr	yep
10:21	pyr	only it goes one step further than chef & puppet
10:21	pyr	which i like about it
10:21	coopernu_	tell me more
10:22	pyr	it was meant from the ground up to spawn vms
10:22	pyr	then apply configuration to it
10:22	coopernu_	reading docs.. "No server".. thank god
10:23	coopernu_	that is what kept me away from puppet
10:23	pyr	:)
10:23	srid	pallet paas in clojure? never heard of it
10:23	pyr	it's not paas, it's a library
10:23	pyr	to let you build your automation
10:24	manutter	hmm, would pallet work with virtualbox on my local dev machine?
10:24	pyr	coopernu_: the great thing is that being a clojure library, you can very easily integrate it in your favorite IRC bot, internal webapp, ...
10:24	pyr	manutter: yep
10:24	manutter	:D
10:24	pyr	manutter: through vmfest
10:24	manutter	got some more googling to do I see
10:24	coopernu_	pyr: yes, I very much like what I'm reading
10:24	pyr	manutter: so test your cloud deploy locally, validate, push to EC2/rackspace/...
10:24	coopernu_	I may have use for this
10:25	manutter	me too, most definitely
10:25	srid	yes, not bad for a relatively new language
10:26	srid	because of existing java libraries, I think
10:26	coopernu_	srid: agreed, and the build tools like lein, which make it trivial to consume that ecosystem
10:26	pyr	it relies on jclouds so most of the vm building stuff was done, still
10:27	pyr	the crate language is very cool
10:27	coopernu_	lein/clojars is what I always wished maven was
10:32	pyr	i'll just say it again, while we're on the subject, if someone wants to come work on that kind of problem (infrastructure, backend, storage, recommendation) all in clojure, my company is recruiting in .ch
10:33	srid	wish i lived in swiz
10:34	pyr	it's become more & more attractive with the current state of the economy ;)
10:34	coopernu_	me too. visited zurich during euro 2008 and loved it
10:35	pyr	in that case it's lausanne, the french speaking part
10:37	lnostdal_	hm, functions to search in non-associative structures seem to be somewhat lacking
10:37	lnostdal_	(?)
10:38	dnolen	lnostdal_: like searching for something in tree structures?
10:38	lnostdal_	nope, searching in vectors and lists
10:39	mmarczyk	lnostdal_: vectors are associative, you search by index
10:39	mmarczyk	get-in / assoc-in / update-in all work
10:39	dnolen	lnostdal_: something more than some, filter?
10:39	lnostdal_	mmarczyk, by value
10:39	mmarczyk	ah
10:40	lnostdal_	oh, i guess some+identity will work .. err, gonna try
10:40	lnostdal_	, dnolen
10:40	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: dnolen in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:41	lnostdal_	#(= % <my item>) ;; i mean
10:41	lnostdal_	thanks .. forgot about some
10:44	raek	lnostdal_: once you find the item, what are you going to do with it? if you just want to check whether it's there, consider using a set and 'contains?' instead?
10:44	raek	*instead.
10:44	lnostdal_	set doesn't work since there might be multiple entries of the same object
10:45	lnostdal_	(set [1 2 2 3]) => #{1 2 3}
10:46	manutter	,(map #(#{2}) [1 2 2 3])
10:46	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval1915$fn>
10:46	manutter	,(map #(#{2} %) [1 2 2 3])
10:46	clojurebot	(nil 2 2 nil)
10:47	raek	,(map #{2} [1 2 2 3])
10:47	clojurebot	(nil 2 2 nil)
10:47	manutter	,(some #{2} [1 2 2 3])
10:47	clojurebot	2
10:48	raek	lnostdal_: but in that ^ example there is two 2s, and you don't know which one it matched with. so in a sense it's the same thing there
10:48	TimMc	,(some #{nil} [1 2 nil])
10:48	clojurebot	nil
10:49	manutter	$findfn #{life universe everything} 42
10:49	lazybot	java.security.PrivilegedActionException: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: life in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
10:49	manutter	o snap
10:49	TimMc	lazybot: How about alife?
10:49	TimMc	How about alife???
10:49	lazybot	TimMc: How could that be wrong?
10:49	TimMc	much better
10:53	stuarthalloway	what say we release Clojure 1.3?
10:53	stuarthalloway	anybody got a bug that says we shouldn't ?
10:53	lnostdal_	what about the contribs?
10:53	stuarthalloway	lnostdal_: ok, fair
10:53	stuarthalloway	which ones in particular?
10:54	stuarthalloway	stuartsierra is working on setting up a matrix build in Hudson to verify all the modular contribs against 1.2 and 1.3
10:54	lnostdal_	oh, and i sometimes miss recur from within catches
10:54	stuarthalloway	all the ones I use are working well, and have been for a while
10:54	lnostdal_	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-667?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Achangehistory-tabpanel .. i think, but i just googled that right now
10:56	lnostdal_	yeah, i think that's the one .. the patch applies to 1.3 from git with some slight modifications and it seems to work for me
10:56	stuarthalloway	lnostdal_: I just moved that ticket into approved backlog
10:56	stuarthalloway	don't think I would hold release for it though
10:58	TimMc	stuarthalloway: So it is definitely not going to be 2.0?
10:59	stuarthalloway	TimMc: true
10:59	TimMc	Oh well. I'm sure it has been argued to death on the ML.
11:00	mmarczyk	stuarthalloway: I've got sth
11:00	mmarczyk	,(contains? (transient {:foo}) :foo)
11:00	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms>
11:00	mmarczyk	,(contains? (transient #{:foo}) :foo)
11:00	clojurebot	false
11:00	mmarczyk	,(contains? #{:foo} :foo)
11:00	clojurebot	true
11:00	mmarczyk	looks buggy...? noticed it recently and didn't post on the ggroup yet
11:00	stuarthalloway	mmarczyk: is that the same as http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-829 ?
11:02	stuarthalloway	transients have oddities, but they are still alpha
11:02	mmarczyk	stuarthalloway: well, I can't see it being the same at first glance
11:02	mmarczyk	but wouldn't no for sure without investigating
11:02	stuarthalloway	and in absence of patches from the community I would ship with known issues in transients
11:02	mmarczyk	ok; will posting a ticket about this and trying to come up with a patch be fine?
11:03	mmarczyk	even if it's for post-1.3
11:03	stuarthalloway	sure
11:03	mmarczyk	ok, thanks; will do
11:03	stuarthalloway	thank you!
11:03	mmarczyk	stuarthalloway: one more thing
11:04	mmarczyk	I might be crazy, but I recently noticed that :doc metadata appears to be ignored on symbols naming namespaces
11:04	mmarczyk	if you include the doc string in the ns form as a string, it gets attached to the ns object
11:05	mmarczyk	if you attach it as :doc meta to the ns name, it doesn't
11:06	mmarczyk	,(:doc (meta (the-ns 'clojure.core)))
11:06	clojurebot	"Fundamental library of the Clojure language"
11:06	mmarczyk	,(:doc (meta (the-ns 'clojure.set)))
11:06	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: No namespace: clojure.set found>
11:06	mmarczyk	oh, whatever; it's nil at my repl
11:07	pjstadig	shipit!
11:08	stuartsierra	Speaking of CI builds...
11:08	stuartsierra	Anybody here familiar with using Zippers for XML parsing
11:08	stuartsierra	?
11:08	stuarthalloway	member:mmarczyk: patch welcoe
11:08	mmarczyk	hm, I went off to find the docs promising meta :doc would be honoured, but cannot find any... nvm & sorry then
11:08	stuarthalloway	...welcome
11:09	mmarczyk	stuarthalloway: yeah, I'll write one as an enhancement
11:09	mmarczyk	for 1.4 :-)
11:09	mmarczyk	stuartsierra: why?
11:09	stuarthalloway	after 1.4 we get to jump straight to 5.0. It is a JVM tradition
11:10	raek	:)
11:10	stuartsierra	mmarczyk: Just looking for some advice
11:11	chouser	stuartsierra: that's cool as long as we can also refer to 5.0 as 1.5 and 6.0 as 1.6. Because otherwise it's just not as much fun.
11:11	chouser	er, stuarthalloway ^^
11:12	stuarthalloway	chouser: of course!
11:13	stuartsierra	There's got to be a better way to do this: https://gist.github.com/1188879
11:14	TimMc	Can we have clojure-lang 2.0 and Clojure™ 1.3?
11:14	chouser	stuartsierra: zip-filter?
11:15	stuartsierra	is that what I need?
11:15	chouser	it might help. That's what it was made for, extracting useful bits from XML trees.
11:16	TimMc	Actually, the way I refer to the current version of Java is "Java 7" or "Java v1.7" <- "v" means "API version" to me
11:18	joegallo	Clojure 2.0 SE, v1.3
11:18	TimMc	yeah
11:18	TimMc	Except it would be Clojure 1.3 SE, v2.0
11:19	joegallo	nah, the 2 is the marketers, the 1.3 is the engineers, just like java.
11:19	TimMc	since Clojure is making big ol' breaking changes without bumping the major number, and Java made (mostly) non-breaking changes while bumping the minor version.
11:19	joegallo	then we can skip straight on to Clojure 5, v1.4
11:19	tomoj	&(class (hash-map))
11:19	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
11:19	joegallo	like winamp
11:19	tomoj	hmm
11:19	TimMc	joegallo: Right, but the marketing version of Clojure is 1.3, as it stands.
11:20	TimMc	Anyway, I really shouldn't haul the IRC channel into this again.
11:20	TimMc	tomoj: How about them hashmaps!
11:20	joegallo	heh
11:21	TimMc	joegallo: Actually, I think that's a safe topic, even for versioning: Both Winamp and the Canon Powershot S# skipped version "4" -- and I think it has to do with some Asian language.
11:22	TimMc	It's either zn or jp where "four" sounds like "death".
11:23	TimMc	zh, excuse me
11:25	Kototama	hello i'm having some trouble with compojure
11:26	Kototama	i have a formular on / and i do a POST on /files but when i click the button, the browser open the /files URL
11:26	Kototama	i just want to process the POST request but stay on the same page
11:26	coopernu_	Kototama: can you make a gist with your code?
11:26	Kototama	sure
11:27	manutter	Kototama: sounds like your form is missing an action tag
11:27	manutter	or malformed somehow.
11:27	manutter	have you done View Source on the page where the form is?
11:27	TimMc	Kototama: If you are on / and you POST to /files, the browser is expected to go there.
11:27	TimMc	perhaps you want target="_blank"?
11:28	Kototama	i just copied some Java servlet code and it seems to POST /files and the browser stay on /
11:28	Kototama	the target is an iframe in this code
11:28	manutter	doh, I'm thinking ajax stuff
11:28	TimMc	Sounds like an HTML issue, not a compojure problem.
11:29	TimMc	My guess is that you need to fix your target attribute on the form.
11:29	Kototama	a POST to any URL redirect the browser to it?
11:29	TimMc	in general, yes
11:29	manutter	Kototama: is there javascript on the page in the original servlet?
11:30	manutter	Kototama: it may have some client-side code that intercepts the submit and turns it into an ajax call
11:30	Kototama	yes there are some js
11:30	Kototama	https://gist.github.com/1188930
11:31	Kototama	https://gist.github.com/1188935
11:32	manutter	Kototama: the other possibility is that the original servlet receives the POST on /files, and then does a redirect back to /
11:33	Kototama	what should go in the {:body} of a function responding to a POST so that the page does not change?
11:35	Kototama	the original servlet is here https://github.com/carneades/carneades/blob/webservice-01/src/CarneadesWebGUI/src/main/java/org/fokus/carneades/carneadeswebgui/CarneadesServlet.java
11:35	coopernu_	Kototama: you could try setting the name attribute on the iframe
11:35	Kototama	i don't see any redirection but i'm really new to web dev
11:35	coopernu_	[:iframe {:id "lkif-source" :name "lkif-source" ...
11:35	coopernu_	see - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/168455/how-do-you-post-to-an-iframe
11:36	coopernu_	but so far it's not really a clojure problem
11:37	Kototama	ok but then for compojure should it makes more sens to post to / then ?
11:37	coopernu_	no, I think what you have is fine
11:37	coopernu_	regarding the compojure routes
11:37	TimMc	Kototama: No, the "POST, redirect to GET" is a common pattern.
11:38	TimMc	Kototama: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Post/Redirect/Get
11:38	Kototama	seems to work now
11:38	coopernu_	great
11:38	Kototama	maybe it was just the name in the iframe?
11:38	TimMc	that would do it
11:38	coopernu_	yeah, I think you need the name attribute
11:38	Kototama	is target targetting a name or an id?
11:38	coopernu_	name
11:39	Kototama	cool
11:39	Kototama	i feel better :-)
11:39	coopernu_	excellent
11:39	Kototama	thanks all for the quick help!
11:39	Kototama	one more piece of java code that will disappear from this earth
11:39	coopernu_	heh
11:47	stuartsierra	chouser: Thanks, much better now. https://gist.github.com/1188879#gistcomment-48813
11:49	Raynes	Kototama: It wont disappear. Once created, it can never be destroyed. It'll always exist down there, deep in the trenches of version control. Waiting...
11:51	Kototama	:-)
11:51	Kototama	but if all go fine, next trainee will have to learn clojure ;-)
11:52	Raynes	mmarczyk: Long time no chat. I recently stumpled upon the cup of coffee you sent me and smiled. <3
11:53	mmarczyk	Raynes: indeed! I stumbled upon one of the photos yesterday :-)
11:53	coopernu_	just wrote my first test today that used (proxy) to mock a java interface.. wow. much less verbose than jmock/easymock
12:00	mmarczyk	Raynes: congrats on the book deal, I'll be ordering a copy as soon as that becomes possible :-)
12:00	Raynes	<3
12:14	alpheus	Raynes wrote a book? I've been a way from #clojure way too long!
12:14	Raynes	Still writing it, but yes.
12:17	pyr	title ?
12:23	TimMc	That is the last thing one writes.
12:31	edoloughlin	I'm implementing a REST api using Clojure as the backend and am beginning to feel that I need the equivalent of XML Schema for the maps I'm building. Is there an idiomatic way of doing this?
12:31	coopernu_	edoloughlin: tell us more about why you feel you need XML Schema. for validation?
12:33	edoloughlin	Perhaps I haven't structured my code well (this is my 1st serious Clojure project), but I find that the maps I build and then convert to XML/JSON have fields & sub maps added in different .clj files. I'd like there to be a central place where I define the structure of these maps before things get out of hand...
12:37	coopernu_	I see
12:41	coopernu_	maybe use defrecord for each element?
12:41	coopernu_	that would at least provide an artifact in the code that would self document the expected properties of each element
12:44	edoloughlin	coopernu_: I might do that. Seems like the best option.
12:44	edoloughlin	coopernu_: Thanks.
12:44	coopernu_	edoloughlin: no problem. another interesting thing you can do if you use defrecord, is make a serialize protocol, and make json and xml impls
12:45	coopernu_	and the protocols can switch based on the type of record. that would put all your xml and json serialization for related records in a single place
12:45	coopernu_	I'm just speaking off the top of my head, I haven't written anything like this myself. but I think that's one of the advantages of using records vs plain maps
12:45	coopernu_	is that you can use them with protocols
12:46	edoloughlin	Hmm. Wish I'd known about that a while ago ;-/
12:46	coopernu_	I bet it wouldn't be a terrible refactor
12:46	edoloughlin	Yeah, s'pose most of the hard work's done. It would make things a lot cleaner.
12:56	michaelr525	back
13:20	amcnamara	o/
13:40	TimMc	`fogus: Can you give a succinct problem statement, or a link to a blog entry about it?
13:45	amalloy	TimMc: i think the problem is basically: (let [x (. obj method)] (x)) is not equivalent to (. obj (method))
13:46	amalloy	but that's just what i remember hearing; i don't do any cljs
13:46	TimMc	Something to do with methods vs. functions, then?
13:46	TimMc	OK
13:47	Scriptor	iirc, methods can't be used as first-class functions if you do it like that
13:47	amalloy	right. js objects have a `this` pointer, which normally gets set to the object they're a method of even if you pass them around some other way, but clojure uses a lower-level mechanism that bypasses that
13:48	TimMc	I wonder how Mozilla's JavaScript handles Java interop.
13:48	TimMc	amalloy: I'm not sure that's correct. [].slice doesn't have a "this", you have to bind it.
13:49	amalloy	TimMc: well, if i'm wrong then let me say in my defense i don't know much about javascript either, i just like answering questions
13:50	TimMc	heh
13:50	TimMc	typeof java.lang.String.toString -> "function"
13:52	TimMc	It looks like MozJS can wrap methods.
13:56	`fogus	TimMc: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/this
13:56	TimMc	thanks
14:41	TimMc	`fogus: (defn whee-python [self, a, b] ...)
14:41	TimMc	:-P
14:49	TimMc	Is there a REPL I can check out somewhere? I'd like to see what CLJS compiles into.
14:51	ibdknox	Is the person who owns learn-clojure.com on here?
14:56	TimMc	Ah, never mind -- for some reason I thought it was already self-hosted.
14:57	amalloy	TimMc: ask ibdknox, he can probably compile cljs in his head
14:57	ibdknox	lol
14:57	ibdknox	Basically.
14:58	TimMc	OK, so what does (defn foo [a b] ...) actually compile into?
14:59	TimMc	(currently, I suppose)
14:59	imade	hello, quick question, I have a function that has a parameter with long and decriptive name, but inside the function body I would like to use a shorter name for the same parameter, is (let []) the only way to achieve this?
14:59	ibdknox	TimMc: myns.foo = function(a, b) { ....}
14:59	amalloy	well. as written, probably the empty string, because the compiler sees that "foo" is unused and omits it
14:59	ibdknox	amalloy: not until it hits the gclosure compiler
15:00	amalloy	imade: can you imagine a more convenient syntax that would make sense?
15:01	imade	amalloy: I sort of remember there was smth just for that, but let is fine also
15:01	manutter	imade: (let []) is the best way to do it afaik
15:01	imade	amalloy: k thx will use let then
15:02	manutter	imade: you might be thinking of the :as tag in destructuring?
15:02	ibdknox	(inc manutter)
15:02	lazybot	⟹ 3
15:02	imade	amalloy: yep, but that works for collections
15:03	TimMc	THe only other renaming support I can think of is in :use.
15:03	TimMc	or :require, I guess
15:03	manutter	imade: right, it's not what you're really looking for, but I thought you might have been vaguely remembering it
15:04	imade	amalloy: as a first attempt I did use :as but then remembered that wait a moment...
15:04	TimMc	`fogus: So what's wrong with just special-casing the symbol "this" so that it can always be used?
15:04	TimMc	Pretend it is a global.
15:05	`fogus	TimMc: Because we do not want to preclude the use of this as a legal ClojureScript name
15:05	TimMc	I was afraid of that.
15:07	`fogus	(extend-type Foo Bar (baz [this a b] ...))
15:07	imade	btw, one more general question. Some problems/algorithms are more suited for imperative style or perform much better in imperative style. How do you deal with this kind of situation in clojure if you can't think of a effective way to implement it in a functional style? One way is to implement that algorithm in Java and call it from Clojure. Just curious.
15:08	TimMc	`fogus: Right, the Python-style approach. (I don't know the actual origin of that style in OOP.)
15:08	`fogus	imade: If that's ever the case, then you can bang away at mutable Java things easily with Clojure.
15:08	`fogus	TimMc: I guess you could look at it that way
15:09	TimMc	imade: Look into transients.
15:09	amcnamara	imade: also note that let bindings hold intermediary state. (ie. let [a 1 b a])
15:09	amcnamara	which can take care of 99% of those imperative-like calculations
15:09	`fogus	TimMc: Although this in the Clojure code does not refer to the same thing as Python
15:09	`fogus	's self
15:10	TimMc	`fogus: Is the issue then that you don't want to have more reserved names in cljs than in clj?
15:10	imade	k thanks for the inputs
15:10	`fogus	TimMc: I don't follow
15:10	TimMc	Right, Python is more strict about context.
15:11	TimMc	,(let [do "`fogus"] do)
15:11	clojurebot	nil
15:11	TimMc	^ example of a reserved name
15:11	TimMc	Hah, this reminds me of anaphoric macros.
15:13	`fogus	TimMc: If we can avoid adding reserved words then we will
15:13	TimMc	OK.
15:15	dnolen	amalloy: mind answering the clojure-dev thread for match?
15:15	TimMc	Anyway, I think I've misunderstood the problem. You want implicit context-binding when (.method obj) returns the function, yeah?
15:26	amalloy	dnolen: link?
15:26	TimMc	Is there really a use case for functions that can both have and not have a context?
15:27	TimMc	ibdknox: What currently happens if you use "this" as a variable name? Does it just get munged?
15:28	amalloy	never mind. response shortly
16:17	jli	I believe it's the case that javascript regexs can be used for global replace with a flag in the regex, but there's no corresponding flag in java regexes
16:18	jli	so, is the only way to do global replaces in clojurescript to use javascript's regex literals with js*?
16:18	jli	e.g. (js* "/regexp?/g")
16:26	dnolen	amalloy: thx
16:27	amalloy	(doto #"regexp?" (-> (.global) (set! true)))
16:27	fdaoud	quick question: is there a function that takes two seqs, e.g. [1 2 3] and [a b c], and returns [[1 a][2 b][3 c]]? (nevermind vectors vs lists)
16:27	amalloy	clojurebot: zip?
16:27	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
16:28	amalloy	jli: which expands to (let [r #"regexp?"] (set! (.global r) true) r)
16:28	fdaoud	thanks amalloy!
16:31	stuartsierra	Boom! We have Matrix CI jobs. http://build.clojure.org/
16:45	coopernu_	nice!
16:47	hiredman	amalloy: you should have replied with "and my axe!"
16:48	amalloy	feh
16:48	amalloy	someone would file a jira ticket about my insufficiently-formal agreement
16:48	hiredman	yes
16:48	hiredman	I would
16:48	dnolen	stuartsierra: hey that is coooool.
17:05	amcnamara	Random thought: "Rich Hickey and the Stuarts" would make a great band name.
17:06	Bronsa	lol
17:11	stuartsierra	I wanted to make a Clojure/Conj band and call it "Function of the Past"
17:14	amcnamara	stuartsierra: If you do that I'll make a band called Lazy. I'll only play one note at a time, and only when asked.
17:14	Bronsa	lol
17:15	stuartsierra	"Rich Hickey and the Lazy Cons Cells"
17:23	jli	amalloy: ho. so "global" is a field on javascript regexs, not java ones, is that right?
17:23	amalloy	yes
17:24	amalloy	it's kinda absurd for it to be a field on regexes at all. it should be an argument to replace
17:25	jli	amalloy: well, what about the other flags? idmsux and all
17:25	amalloy	what about them?
17:25	jli	do you think they should be arguments to regex functions vs. regex fields?
17:25	jli	oh, nevermind
17:25	jli	I understand
17:32	jli	hum, why are \uFDD0 and \uFDD1 safe to use as keyword and symbol prefixes?
17:32	stuartsierra	I think they're in the "private use area" of unicode.
17:34	jli	ah.
17:39	lobotomy_	hmm, i take it the clojure.contrib.combinatorics/combinations function is efficient?
17:40	lobotomy_	doing a combinatorial search algorithm and for some reason i decided to generate combinations in the inner loop
17:40	lobotomy_	which hopefully isn't actually necessary, but still: probs not worth implementing my own combination generator for that? :)
17:41	lobotomy_	to elaborate, i'm using the combinations to avoid duplicates, since i often have many identical pieces
17:43	amalloy	uhhh
17:44	amalloy	finding the combinations of a seq of length N is necessarily O(n!). it can't be more efficient than that, so doing it in some inner loop when you don't have to is probably not a good idea
17:46	amalloy	modulo my bizarre inability to consistently choose either N or n
17:57	lobotomy_	amalloy, well, if i have say two knights to put on the board, i need some way of not generating the duplicate solutions
17:58	lobotomy_	i have to go through each combination of all-free-squares choose 2 in any case
17:58	lobotomy_	so the O(n!) seems unavoidable - and usually (but not quite always) there aren't a gazillion combinations
18:02	lobotomy_	sure, in e.g. the 8 queens puzzle my solution would first generate the 64 choose 8 different ways of putting every queen on the board, but i guesstimate that in the general case, 1) there will be fewer combinations and 2) there won't really be a better way to deal with duplicate non-generation anyway
18:06	amalloy	64c8 is a hideously inefficient way to solve N-queens. just do the simple optimization of only looking at each column (say) once, then it's just 8^8
18:13	dnolen	has some exciting news about solving problems like nqueens in Clojure ... keeps your eyes peeled ...
18:14	grios	hi. Does "#(% x)" stand for "(fn[x] x)"?
18:14	Bronsa	no
18:14	Bronsa	more like (fn [y] (y x))
18:15	scottj	grios: #(identity x) is as close to (fn [x] x) as you can get
18:15	scottj	#(identity %) rather
18:15	amalloy	scottj: #(do %)
18:15	scottj	oh yeah, forgot about that one
18:15	amalloy	and #(identity %) is just identity anyway
18:16	grios	ok thanks
18:16	grios	#(do %) ... interesting
18:27	lobotomy_	amalloy, my point was that since i'm not doing the 8 queens puzzle, the solution isn't completely terrible, like it would be for the 8 queens puzzle
18:29	grios	see you guys
18:29	grios	bye
20:16	livingston	if I want to expose some clojure code to java callers, I can easily use defrecord/defprotocol etc. for instances but what if I have what in java would be a static method on a class? how do I expose something like that?
20:17	livingston	basically I have a clojure function that I'd like java users to call like they usually would a static, but with out the RT.load(...) RT.var("ns", "function") rigamarole that looks "foreign"
20:21	livingston	this is the best I've found so far http://java.dzone.com/articles/java-clojure-interop-calling using gen-class
20:25	tomoj	livingston: that's the best there is I believe
20:26	livingston	tomoj: thanks, i'm trying to decide just how much it's worth trying to hide RT
20:27	livingston	if you do you can tell Java people "oh, it's just a library" but once RT etc. shows up they start to say "wait a minute..."
20:29	tomoj	does it pain you to use gen-class?
20:31	tomoj	that there is no nicer way to call regular clojure fns is deliberate, see http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Improvements+to+interop+from+Java (esp. first comment)
20:34	livingston	tomoj: yeah I'm mostly sympathetic to all that... but importing is still a bit of an issue. people have RT.load before they can find the var.
20:35	livingston	that's not that huge an issue but it ups the "weirdness" ante.
20:36	tomoj	and then it's all invoke
20:37	tomoj	I don't see how anything but gen-class could make them happy, even if there _were_ an easy way to get ahold of the var
20:37	tomoj	s/easy/easier/
20:38	livingston	the invoke I'm ok with. that's ok. I think the java guys can deal with that. the dynamic code loading though a call may be bothersome (nevermind that's what the java class loader is doing)
20:39	tomoj	and then everything is Object too?
20:39	livingston	java people (that do interesting things) aren't un-use to things like .invoke() because if they do anything with visitors / call-backs that's the only way for them.
20:39	livingston	will they have to type-cast ever return? as function parameters that not a deal, the compiler will silently lift them to Object for them.
20:40	tomoj	yeah, they will
20:40	livingston	tomoj: yeah they will ? have to cast every return?
20:40	tomoj	yeah
20:40	tomoj	gen-class lets you specify param and return types
20:41	livingston	hm. that may bother them a bit.
20:41	livingston	can I specify return types on defprotocol? not yet right?
20:42	tomoj	dunno, if you can I think just for clojure's sake, not to change the actual type signature
20:43	livingston	that would be highly useful for this.
20:43	tomoj	what's wrong with gen-class?
20:44	livingston	otherwise you would have to use actual java interfaces instead of protocols
20:44	livingston	tomoj: I have a lot of record/protocols already set up on the clj side, I just wanted to expose them to the java guys.
20:45	livingston	the "constructors" though are pure functions right now, that get you one of those, then they have protocols to call, that's easy, but the return types are still mildly problematic.
20:45	livingston	(stupid statically typed language ;) )
20:49	tomoj	well, I guess you could provide any statics with gen-class and also expose the stuff you've got :/
20:49	livingston	at this point I"m resigning to just have them deal with it ;)
20:55	livingston	is there a simple way to call a function that would take key word parameters from java? or do they have to get the keyword symbols to pass into invoke?
21:00	amalloy	how else could it work?
21:00	amalloy	haha whoops, missed a chance to use a bot. could it work any other way??
21:00	lazybot	amalloy: Definitely not.
21:00	livingston	magic, I don't know... I didn't think so, just checking
21:01	amalloy	shrug you could write a little clojure wrapper that does the keyword conversion
21:01	livingston	i'm just afraid they'll look them up everytime.
21:01	amalloy	but i guess then you couldn't pass any strings that aren't keywords
21:36	Netpilgrim	Hi. I'm playing around with records and protocols for the first time and get an exception with a few simple code lines as shown here: https://gist.github.com/1190370 Could somebody have a look and explain the problem to me?
21:37	Netpilgrim	Argh, never mind!
21:37	amcnamara	paste the exception
21:37	Netpilgrim	Damn typo, I hadn't seen after reading the code a dozend times.
21:38	livingston	,(doc reduce)
21:38	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val i...
21:41	Netpilgrim	But perhaps someone could look at the posted problem nevertheless and explain the following to me: I had mistyped a function name add-conn as add-con but the exception message reads “Can't define method not in interfaces: add_conn” – it doesn’t refer to the mistyped function name.
21:46	dnolen	Netpilgrim: you can't define multiple arities for protocol fns.
21:46	livingston	yes you can but not like that
21:47	Netpilgrim	livingston: How would I do it?
21:47	livingston	you have to do (defprotocol p (fn [x] [x y]))
21:47	Netpilgrim	livingston: Ah, thanks.
21:47	icey	dnolen: your link on HN in the "Clojure Hills of Abstraction" thread (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2955389) is [dead]ed - I'm guessing your comment double posted and you deleted the wrong one. Anyways, you're the only one who suggested slimv and VimClojure... you might want to re-add your comment
21:48	dnolen	icey: ? looks ok here.
21:49	icey	dnolen: look at the thread in anonymous mode - it will look fine to you if you're logged in as you
21:49	icey	err, incognito mode
21:50	livingston	Netpilgrim: the second definition clobbers the first and it says there is no two argument version
21:51	icey	dnolen: crazy, it killed the second one too. i wonder if one of the links is banned or something
21:51	Netpilgrim	livingston: That explains it.
21:52	tomoj	wow
21:52	tomoj	I didn't think protocol fns could have multiple arities either
21:52	dnolen	livingston: wow, somehow I totally missed that.
21:52	dnolen	livingston: I guess rest args is what aren't supported.
21:53	livingston	I would assume that could be done to, you can do it in java too but I've never tried
21:53	tomoj	so how do you implement both arities?
21:53	tomoj	java's is just compiler sugar over an array as last param, isn't it?
21:53	dnolen	icey: weird, oh well.
21:53	livingston	tomoj: Netpilgrim had it right except for the protocol def
21:54	Netpilgrim	tomoj: https://gist.github.com/1190395
21:54	icey	dnolen: I'll send an email, maybe it will get fixed. It sucks, because nobody else has mentioned VimClojure or slimv in that thread
21:54	tomoj	thanks
21:54	livingston	oh well then maybe it couldn't do it since there's no way to make a jave interface of it, but I think it could with the var arg, it would take some messing with to get the code right though
21:58	tomoj	an & in the arglist seems to be interpreted as a regular parameter
21:58	livingston	in the protocol? lol
21:58	tomoj	e.g. (deftype T [] P (p [x & z] &)) returns the second arg
21:58	amalloy	protocols don't have varargs
21:59	amalloy	and never will; it is an undesired feature
21:59	livingston	amalloy: why?
21:59	tomoj	and by whom? :)
22:00	amalloy	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5401378/do-clojure-protocols-allow-one-to-have-a-variadic-method-the-way-funcions-do-wit
22:02	livingston	there's not much detail in that
22:04	amalloy	"Protocol methods are intended to be a "low-level" mechanism, with higher-level APIs, including variable arity, built out of ordinary functions." how much more is there to say?
22:04	livingston	it seems like that could just create a var-arg interface signature -- you wouldn't get destructuring but you'd get the array, although even the destructuring doesn't seem hard, grab the array, destructure it in a let and then call the function implementation
22:05	livingston	you also get java interop with the protocol and that seems oddly limiting
22:06	livingston	I mean you could just accept an array too, it's not that huge, but whatever
22:07	tomoj	huh
22:07	tomoj	when I look at that google groups post, there is a break right in the spot where you have a nbsp
22:07	tomoj	odd
22:08	fbru02	hi ! where is re-gsub in 1.3 ?
22:08	amalloy	$findfn "jaja" #"a" "b" "jbjb"
22:09	lazybot	[clojure.string/replace]
22:09	amalloy	tomoj: i replaced the newlines with spaces when pasting? is that what you mean?
22:09	fbru02	amalloy: thanks
22:10	amcnamara	whoa, how does that function work?!
22:10	amcnamara	$findfn "a" "o" "ao"
22:11	lazybot	[clojure.core/str clojure.contrib.string/as-str]
22:11	amcnamara	damn that's cool
22:12	tomoj	amalloy: no, your message had a no break space in between "ordinary" and "functions", where I see a break in the browser
22:12	tomoj	what's a no break space for anyway?
22:12	amalloy	dunno
22:12	tomoj	figured it was for.. no breaks
22:13	livingston	tomoj: it is
22:13	livingston	where is this though?
22:13	amcnamara	its for words you don't want to appear on separate lines, like names
22:13	tomoj	oh, I don't see the nbsp in the browser. that's comforting :)
22:14	livingston	if there is any other whitespace around it though it'll then break...
22:14	livingston	or if it's not actaully there,..
22:14	amcnamara	also good for keeping empty table cells from collapsing :)
22:15	livingston	amcnamara: wasn't that only due to some crappy non-compliance in one of the browsers during the browser wars?
22:16	amcnamara	livingston: Probably, the 90s were full of i'll-fix-this-later hacks... that are still around
22:16	amalloy	amcnamara: it iterates through a few namespaces (core, string, set, contrib/string) and calls every function with the supplied args, to see which ones return the right result
22:16	livingston	I do remember no end of futzing with crap like that (back when I uses to work with ASP 1)
22:19	amcnamara	amalloy: Neat concept. Though probably heavy to process.
22:19	livingston	if you know the order of the arguments
22:20	amcnamara	livingston: I'm actually worried that the same thing is happening again, with all the talk of HTML5 browsers are in a race to put non-finished standard components into their releases
22:20	livingston	yeah we shall see
22:21	livingston	having the acid tests (or whatever the hell they are called) out before the spec seems to be helping some
22:21	amcnamara	10 years from now we'll be pulling our hair out over old chrome and ff idiosyncracies.
22:21	livingston	maybe although two viable free browsers seems to be producing some stability
22:22	livingston	is chrome actually really in the wild or is it just a geek toy still?
22:22	amcnamara	I think its picking up popularity
22:22	amcnamara	but my opinions are pretty skewed.
22:23	amalloy	livingston: clojure functions generally take their arguments in a pretty predictable order
22:24	livingston	for the most part
22:24	amalloy	granted it takes some time to get used to that, but i didn't know $findfn was going to return string/replace; i just asked it for a function that takes its args in the order that replace "must"
22:24	amalloy	yeah, everything but nth. grrrrr nth
22:26	amcnamara	nth gets me every time.
22:26	livingston	(doc ,nth)
22:26	clojurebot	"([coll index] [coll index not-found]); Returns the value at the index. get returns nil if index out of bounds, nth throws an exception unless not-found is supplied. nth also works for strings, Java arrays, regex Matchers and Lists, and, in O(n) time, for sequences."
22:26	amcnamara	maybe they'll fix it for clojure 2.0
22:28	livingston	why is that anyway?
22:28	amalloy	amcnamara: bet you a dollar?
22:28	amalloy	$google common lisp elt
22:28	lazybot	[lispdoc documentation for "elt"] http://lispdoc.com/?q=elt
22:28	livingston	that would break a ton of stuff
22:29	amalloy	livingston: i assume it's a holdover from some other lisp
22:29	livingston	oh huh, I forgot elt was that way
22:29	livingston	I only even remembered elt as being 0-based and nth being 1-based
22:30	livingston	I rarely called elt (although I knew it was there and understood it)
22:31	amcnamara	I'll open a bug report and patch it myself!
22:31	amcnamara	amalloy: for a beer.
22:31	amalloy	amcnamara: i hope your soul can survive being crushed
22:31	amalloy	by the patch being soundly rejected
22:31	livingston	right... because it's a simplifed form of aref
22:32	srid	i am using cake. 'cake repl' launches faster and that convinces me to keep using cake. i do wonder if I can launch a cake repl client within emacs (analogous to M-x clojure-jack-in)
22:32	livingston	it makes sense when I look at the other things around it.
22:32	amalloy	srid: cake swank
22:32	livingston	srid: why do you need to keep launching it? I've been known to keep development repls open for weeks even months
22:33	srid	livingston: i keep running non-repl commands (eg: `lein run`) that has startup cost which accumultates to the point of frustration
22:33	srid	and i have to relaunch repl after 'lein deps'
22:33	amcnamara	srid: M-x term, never leave the comfort of emacs.
22:34	amalloy	srid: lein interactive
22:34	srid	amcnamara: nice, cake autocomp. wonders in m-x term
22:36	srid	except terminal locks up all the C-x ... bindings
22:37	amcnamara	yeah, if it didn't you wouldn't be able to quit out-of-control procs
22:37	amcnamara	but I'm trying to figure out a way to toggle focus, if I do I'll ping you.
22:37	amalloy	why not just use M-x shell?
22:38	amalloy	i guess i don't understand what issue you're trying to solve
22:38	srid	cake autocomp. doesn't work in M-x shell
22:39	srid	likely possible to disable emacs's TAB complete. whatever. enough yak shaving
22:41	srid	anyway, settled on `cake swank` and M-x slime-connect. repl in emacs with autocomp goodies.
22:46	tomoj	lein interactive somehow lets you not restart the repl after deps?
22:46	tomoj	oh, no, just startup alleviation, huh
22:46	amalloy	right
23:03	amcnamara	srid: got it! http://www.gnu.org/s/libtool/manual/emacs/Term-Mode.html
23:03	amcnamara	one C-c will get you C-x bindings
23:04	amcnamara	two will send kill signal to term process
23:56	jblomo	is there a function that will seqify something if it doesn't implement ISeq
23:56	jblomo	like stick it in a list?
23:56	jblomo	(seq' 5)
23:56	amalloy	jblomo: that's probably not what you want
23:57	amalloy	since ##(instance? clojure.lang.ISeq [1])
23:57	lazybot	⇒ false
23:57	livingston	jblomo: huh?
23:57	livingston	list ?
23:57	livingston	##(list 5)
23:57	lazybot	⇒ (5)
23:57	amalloy	livingston: he wants to leave '(5) alone, and turn 5 into '(5)
23:57	jblomo	exactly
23:58	jblomo	amalloy: you're right, I don't care about instance? ISeq
23:58	amalloy	jblomo: (a) your specification is probably wrong, because ISeq doesn't describe all seqable things, and (b) when you want to do this, it's usually because you've written something else badly
23:58	livingston	(defn huh [x] (if (seq x) x (list x)))
23:58	amalloy	livingston: (huh 5) ; exception
23:58	livingston	or rather (if (seq? x) ... I think
23:59	jblomo	amalloy: i'm writing a fucntion that can either take a string or list of strings
23:59	amalloy	jblomo: see, told you you'd written something wrong already :)
23:59	jblomo	haha
23:59	amalloy	just make it take a list of strings. if you want to special-case the length-one list, then go ahead