#clojure – 2011-08-25

2011-08-25

00:02	scottj	the difficulty of getting libraries to compile responses made me appreciate the jvm
00:28	dnolen	chouser: slides?
01:05	leeda	Hi, if I have a byte-array, how can I tell if it corresponds to a JPG image?
01:05	ibdknox	don't jpegs have a header?
01:06	leeda	Probably. So I should just try to look at the header? I was wondering if there's any library that can look at a byte-string and detect the mimetype automatically?
01:09	nkoza	leeda: http://sourceforge.net/projects/jmimemagic/
01:16	nkoza	if I change an atom inside a dosync block, and the transaction fails.. is the atom reverted to their previous state?
01:29	MasseR	nkoza: AFAIK yes, but it is later retried
01:29	MasseR	SO that there are no dirty values anywhere
01:29	MasseR	No wait, atom? Not inside transaction afaik
01:30	nkoza	so if transaction is retried the atom will be mutated again?
01:30	MasseR	Only refs
01:30	MasseR	I'd say so
01:30	MasseR	Don't count on me
01:45	amalloy	go ahead, count on MasseR
02:18	scottj	where is the cljs require goog magic covered? goog.dom and goog.events don't make sense to me, I'm not sure what they refer to. [goog.Timer :as timer] makes sense, I can see Timer in the closure api. [goog.events.EventType :as event-type] makes sense I see it in the api too. but how dom/append gets mapped to DomHelper (guessing) and how events/listen maps to EventHandler (guessing) O dpm
02:18	scottj	I don't understand
02:29	scottj	nm I was in the package reference all this time not the file reference
03:29	klutometis	There doesn't appear to be a `transient?' predicate; does any know how I'd fake one?
03:32	amalloy	&(for [x [{}, (transient {})]] (instance? x clojure.lang.ITransientCollection))
03:32	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.lang.Class
03:32	amalloy	&(for [x [{}, (transient {})]] (instance? clojure.lang.ITransientCollection x))
03:32	lazybot	⇒ (false true)
03:34	klutometis	amalloy: Ah, fantastic; thanks.
03:35	amalloy	klutometis: you can derive these yourself by having a look at ##(supers (class (transient {})))
03:35	lazybot	⇒ #{clojure.lang.ILookup clojure.lang.ITransientMap java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.ITransientAssociative java.lang.Object clojure.lang.ATransientMap java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.ITransientCollection clojure.lang.IFn}
03:39	klutometis	amalloy: Indeed; for some reason I was thinking of transients as magical types and it didn't occur to me that they're classes like everything else. ;)
03:40	amalloy	heh. in java everything's a type, even when that obviously makes no sense
03:40	amalloy	er, an object. or has a type? i'm kinda sleepy, apparently
03:47	klutometis	amalloy: Yeah, I was about to modify my statement that "transients are types (classes)" to "transients are objects," until I realized that both are true (even in the plural).
04:12	robbe-	I have a circular structure (basically conscell with refs), how would I print a ref without the REPL exploding?
04:13	robbe-	Using format instead of print seems to be a good start.
04:17	amalloy	&(doc print-depth)
04:17	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: print-depth in this context
04:17	amalloy	&(doc print-level)
04:17	lazybot	⇒ "; print-level controls how many levels deep the printer will print nested objects. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum level to print. Each argument to print is at level 0; if an arg... http://gist.github.com/1170222
04:21	robbe-	Oh, thanks :)
04:28	wgethis	how to do (length ("hello")) in clojure?
04:46	raek	wtetzner: (count "hello")
05:02	scottj	&(get (assoc (clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap.) :a 1) "from")
05:02	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.String
05:03	scottj	wtf?
05:14	thorwil	,(get (assoc (clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap.) :a 1) :a)
05:14	clojurebot	1
05:14	thorwil	scottj: how is it supposed to deliver a value for "from", when there is no such key?
05:14	scottj	is it part of PersistentTreeMap's contract that all keys be the same type? Does clojure never promote maps automatically to PersistentTreeMap?
05:14	scottj	thorwil, I expected nil
05:15	scottj	&(get (assoc {} :a 1) "from")
05:15	lazybot	⇒ nil
05:17	thorwil	it does seem like clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap does not like non-keyword keys (?)
05:17	scottj	no it's fine with them, they just have be the same and you have to request the right one
05:17	thorwil	,(type (assoc {} :a 1))
05:17	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
05:18	scottj	&(get (assoc (clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap.) "a" 1) "from")
05:18	lazybot	⇒ nil
05:19	robbe-	Is there a difference in behaviour with nested dosync blocks vs one big dosync block enclosing all operations?
05:19	thorwil	ic
05:22	scottj	robbe-: I don't think so, http://soft.vub.ac.be/~tvcutsem/talks/presentations/STM-in-Clojure.pdf
05:23	robbe-	Hey, that's my professor.
05:23	robbe-	:D
05:24	thorwil	scottj: you don't need the get in front, even
05:25	scottj	robbe-: I don't use the stm, was just going off the couple words about that in his slides, there may be differences in the real implementation
05:34	dhaivat	Clojure has waaaay too many parentheses. I wrote one web app, and it (in total) had 748 parentheses.
05:36	scottj	dhaivat: save them, you can recycle them with cut and paste
05:49	Chousuke	dhaivat: have you ever counted the number of parentheses in a java app?
05:50	robbe-	(or the loc)
05:50	robbe-	:p
05:50	Chousuke	you're likely to have more parens in a typical java app than in a clojure app that does the same thing :P
05:50	Chousuke	they're just better hidden
05:54	scottj	(defn write [code, like, this]
05:54	scottj	(to really, piss, people, off);
05:54	scottj	)
08:35	MasseR	Damnit, if clojure would just start up faster, I'd probably write all my tools in it
08:35	manutter	jark
08:36	manutter	or nailgun I suppose
08:37	MasseR	Having a server running for command line programs seems kinda wrong. Been thinking that though
08:37	MasseR	Hm.. jark seems interesting
08:38	manutter	Yeah me too, if I had more RAM to throw around I probably would think about it some more
08:38	MasseR	Oh yeah, that too
08:38	MasseR	what is the memory footprint of jvm/clojure?
08:39	bsteuber	how about js startup time?
08:39	bsteuber	if it's good, why not use clojurescript for your tools?
08:40	MasseR	openjdk
08:40	MasseR	I'm intrigued by it, but not enough to install sunjdk )
08:40	MasseR	:)
08:43	manutter	looks like I'm soaking up just over 500M on a clean start of the jark vm
08:44	manutter	That's going to be subject to the params you start the vm with of course.
08:48	Chousuke	at one point I was running the cake vms persistently at about 32 MB at start
08:48	Chousuke	it really depends on the JVM parameters
08:50	Chousuke	I think the default is to preallocate 128MB or something
08:50	Chousuke	the JVM expects that it will be running something enterprisey for a long time so it optimises for it :P
08:55	MasseR	Hmm... I think I'm going to like jark
08:57	manutter	jark is kinda fun :)
08:58	manutter	No! No! Bad programmer! Close that window and get back to PHP!
08:58	manutter	sigh
08:58	MasseR	manutter: I feel you
08:58	MasseR	FOr a while I laughed. Then I realized I'm in the same boat
09:01	agz	(-> 1 #(+ % 1)) -> gives me java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.ISeq
09:01	MasseR	jark doesn't recognize my -main function :/
09:02	agz	is it right?
09:02	agz	(-> 1 inc) -> is just fine
09:02	MasseR	,(-> 1 #(+ % 1))
09:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.ISeq, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
09:03	manutter	You can't use the -> macro with the #() macro, bad things happen
09:03	MasseR	manutter: Why is that?
09:04	agz	,(-> 1 (fn [x] (+ x 1)))
09:04	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Long>
09:04	manutter	(macroexpand '(-> 1 #(+ 1 %)))
09:04	agz	and this why not?
09:04	manutter	doh
09:04	manutter	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 #(+ 1 %)))
09:04	clojurebot	(fn* 1 [p1__8345#] (+ 1 p1__8345#))
09:04	manutter	eh, maybe I'm misremembering
09:05	agz	feels a bit inconsistent :(
09:05	manutter	I thought something like this had come up before and that was the answer
09:05	manutter	but looks like the cases aren't quite parallel
09:05	agz	hmm -> can be parallelized? :O
09:06	manutter	no, wait
09:06	agz	(don't think so)
09:06	dnolen	agz: -> is pure syntax transformation. you're pushing anything through anything.
09:06	manutter	I missed the fn* 1 in the expansion
09:06	manutter	I was right after all
09:06	agz	yep but then why not accept the fn -version
09:06	dnolen	,(-> 1 ((fn [x] (+ x 1))))
09:06	clojurebot	2
09:06	agz	,(-> 1 (fn [x] (+ x 1)))
09:06	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Long>
09:06	manutter	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 (fn [x] (inc x))))
09:07	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Long>
09:07	dnolen	agz: you need to wrap in an extra set of parens.
09:07	agz	dnolen: what is the special character there? :O
09:07	agz	dnolen: ohh .. OHHH!!! thx :D
09:07	dnolen	,(-> 1 (#(% + 1)))
09:07	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
09:07	manutter	basically, -> is a macro that re-writes your source code
09:08	dnolen	,(-> 1 (#(+ % 1)))
09:08	clojurebot	2
09:08	manutter	There we go
09:08	manutter	I didn't know there was a workaround, but that makes sense
09:08	agz	yeah it's really cool
09:09	agz	another one guys
09:09	agz	I installed a lots of leiningen stuff
09:09	agz	and my interpreter "lost" my agents :)
09:10	agz	(def a (agent [])) (send a conj 1) (await a) <- and no response, interpreter hangs(?) as the thread never finishes
09:10	manutter	Hmm, I've seen that one
09:11	agz	I've deleted ~/.m2 and just started a plain new clojure 1.2.1
09:11	manutter	Yep, same thing happened to me
09:11	agz	but still no
09:11	agz	manutter: ohh what was the solution? :O
09:11	manutter	I ended up re-installing a bunch of stuff, I think my .lein dir and possibly my .m2 dir
09:11	manutter	clean re-install of the latest lein cleared it up
09:12	agz	ahhaaam
09:12	agz	so you deleted .lein also?
09:12	agz	(where lein selfinstall puts stuff??)
09:14	MasseR	\o/ I broke jark already :D
09:15	manutter	agz: I believe that's how I fixed it, it's been a few weeks
09:15	manutter	MasseR: lol, how?
09:16	MasseR	manutter: By doing 'jark lein' on a non lein directory
09:16	MasseR	I can't start the jark vm server anymore
09:16	manutter	oh, ouch
09:16	agz	manutter: thx, i will try it out!
09:17	MasseR	"exception failure: int_of_string"
09:18	manutter	MasseR: the vm server isn't hanging around stuck somewhere is it?
09:19	MasseR	pgrep jark and pgrep jvm both return nothing
09:19	manutter	how about "java"?
09:19	manutter	netstat -lanp \| grep 4005
09:19	MasseR	ha! There
09:20	MasseR	Yup, jark lein kills it
09:20	MasseR	Even on a lein project
09:21	manutter	I've never used jark lein, what's it supposed to do?
09:22	MasseR	I don't know. That's what I was testing
09:23	MasseR	But even still, apparently unlike jark website says, jark isn't started automatically and it doesn't recognize the -main function so as it is, it's quite useless
09:23	MasseR	./
09:23	MasseR	:/
09:25	manutter	hmm, I'm pretty sure I did a simple "hello world" type jark script, but I don't recall what the exact syntax was.
09:26	MasseR	http://pastebin.com/nmG7xXHZ that's quite as simple as it gets. (The dofoo was for testing)
09:28	manutter	how did you run the command?
09:29	MasseR	./foo.clj and jark foo.clj
09:29	manutter	I wonder if it matters which dir you start jark from vs which dir you start the script from, hmm...
09:29	manutter	did you get any errors or just no output?
09:30	MasseR	With little modifications I get no output but also no errors (If I do (def foo (println "foo"))) it prints the foo), but that version prints 'clojure.lang.Var\n2'
09:31	manutter	when I run your script locally I get "java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate foo__init.class or foo.clj on classpath"
09:32	manutter	oh, duh, I didn't name it "foo".
09:33	manutter	There, with proper naming, I get "Hello world" as my output.
09:33	MasseR	jark client version 0.4
09:36	MasseR	Odd
09:40	manutter	I just re-installed and restarted jark, and I get "Hello World" just fine using your code.
09:40	manutter	openjdk vs sun-java6?
09:42	robbe-	Is filter the idiomatic way to find an element in a list?
09:42	robbe-	I need only one result, so that would be (first (filter ...
09:45	MasseR	openjdk
09:46	manutter	MasseR: I'm on sun-java6, maybe thats the difference?
09:48	Somelauw	openjdk works for nonreparenting windows if you modify your .xinitrc, but sunjdk is what you need to get intellij to work. Since I don't use intellij, I go for openjdk.
09:49	MasseR	manutter: I'll try changing
09:57	MasseR	No luck with suns jdk
10:03	MasseR	If I prepend the file with a (comment) it doesn't throw any errors
10:46	Scorchin	Is there any way to do order-by on multiple keys in a map? E.g. I have a list of maps holding :name and :sport keys and I want them to be grouped by :name and then for each :name — e.g. "Bob" — to have their sports in ascending order.
10:57	gtrak	how would you get to a servlet request attribute from a custom ring middleware?
10:59	babilen	Scorchin: Take a look at sort-by -- For example: (sort-by (columns [:name :sport] YOUR_MAP)) (not necessarily correct, play with it)
11:00	babilen	Scorchin: Err, you probably want to switch :name and :sport -- I'll be back later.
11:01	tufflax	babilen what is that columns fn?
11:03	Scorchin	babilen: thanks, will check it out
11:04	gtrak	oh, I see there's a :servlet-request attribute
11:04	tufflax	Scorchin sort seem to be stable, so you can sort by sport first, then by name. Or of couse you can make a new comparator fn, it's easy in this case. But maybe there is something better... hmm
11:05	tufflax	seems*
11:06	MasseR	Is clojureql capable of sqlite btw?
11:07	coopernurse	MasseR: haven't tried it, but I suspect if you get the right JDBC driver it would work
11:07	gtrak	clojureql doesn't do any ddl stuff
11:08	coopernurse	perhaps this one: http://www.xerial.org/trac/Xerial/wiki/SQLiteJDBC#UsingSQLiteJDBCwithMaven2
11:10	coopernurse	which in project.clj would look like: [org.xerial/sqlite-jdbc "3.6.16"]
11:10	coopernurse	again, haven't tried it though..
11:12	coopernurse	looks like that driver has some native code. not sure how that plays with maven/lein - presumably you'd have to manually install the .so/.dll file
11:14	MasseR	coopernurse: xerial?
11:19	coopernurse	MasseR: yeah, that appears to be one java sqlite driver, which might work with clojureql
11:19	lrenn	I don't suppose I could get some volunteers to run: (java.net.InetAddress/getByName "4294967303")
11:20	lrenn	For some reason it resolve to an IP for me even though dig/nslookup/etc don't resolve.
11:20	lrenn	also different on Lion vs. Snow Leopard which is blowing up a test.
11:21	coopernurse	; user=> (java.net.InetAddress/getByName "4294967303")
11:21	coopernurse	; #<Inet4Address 4294967303/72.3.199.16>
11:21	coopernurse	that's on clj 1.2.1 - snow leopard
11:21	Fossi	user=> (java.net.InetAddress/getByName "4294967303")
11:21	Fossi	java.net.UnknownHostException: 4294967303 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
11:21	Fossi	linux gentoo
11:21	lrenn	See, wtf?
11:22	coopernurse	lemme try some os tools with that. very ood
11:22	Fossi	1.6.0_26 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
11:22	coopernurse	odd
11:22	coopernurse	$ host 4294967303
11:23	coopernurse	4294967303 has address 72.3.199.16
11:23	lrenn	yeah, host gives me two different ips, then says not found.
11:23	coopernurse	honestly, I'm not sure what that even means.. what would a dns server do with that
11:23	lrenn	is it converting the string into bytes or something...
11:23	coopernurse	great question
11:24	coopernurse	dig resolves it too
11:24	lrenn	host 42949673034294967303 has address 8.15.7.1174294967303 has address 63.251.179.13Host 4294967303 not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
11:24	Fossi	Host 4294967303 not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
11:24	Fossi	dig resolves it for me
11:25	manutter	,(+ (* 72 256 256 256) (* 199 256 256) (* 3 256) 16)
11:25	clojurebot	1221002000
11:25	manutter	interesting...
11:25	Fossi	stil, what kind of address is that supposed to be?
11:26	lrenn	when it resolves, we all resolve it to something different, so i don't think that's it.
11:26	lrenn	it's not supposed to be an address, we have some code that was expecting an UnknownHostException.
11:26	lrenn	One of our devs upgraded to Lion and the test started failing.
11:27	lrenn	we all use macs at work, but I checked my linux box on home and it does the same thing Lion is doing (resolves)
11:27	coopernurse	lemme try a linux vps box I have
11:27	coopernurse	ok, interesting
11:28	coopernurse	it appears to depend on your nameserver
11:28	coopernurse	linux vps - running bind locally, doesn't resolve
11:28	coopernurse	linux vm on my mac - hitting a DNS server on my dlink access point - does resolve
11:32	lrenn	thanks guys. i don't want waste anymore of anyones time on it.
11:32	lrenn	strange though...
11:32	Fossi	the implementation might have changed
11:32	Fossi	// if host is an IP address, we won't do further lookup
11:32	Fossi	if (Character.digit(host.charAt(0), 16) != -1
11:32	Fossi	\|\| (host.charAt(0) == ':')) {
11:32	lrenn	Lion actually resolves it to 0.0.0.7
11:32	lrenn	:)
11:33	Fossi	that smells like a fishy bit to me
11:33	cemerick	Do pull requests always notify everyone that has commit privs on a repo?
11:39	Fossi	lrenn: i would guess it's somehow interpreted as an ipv6 address
11:39	Fossi	and depending on the machines setup that might resolve or not
11:39	lrenn	Fossi: thought of that, but it returns an instance of IPV4
11:39	lrenn	#<Inet4Address 4294967303/72.3.199.16>
11:39	lrenn	(even the odd 0.0.0.7)
11:40	lrenn	gotta split, thanks again everyone.
11:45	babilen	Scorchin, tufflax: Ah, sorry - forgot about that. It is : http://paste.debian.net/127362/ -- It is from "The Joy of Clojure" 7.1.2
11:49	Scorchin	babilen: I google'd it when I started getting stack traces :)
11:49	Scorchin	babilen: but, thanks!
11:50	babilen	Scorchin: Actually just read http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/sort-by (the third example is exactly what you are looking for and uses an anonymous function instead)
11:51	Scorchin	babilen: yup, that's what I'm using :)
11:51	Scorchin	but now I've got another issue :/
11:51	babilen	Scorchin: Perfect -- Sorry for the confusion :)
11:52	Scorchin	I now have a sorted list of maps — where maps containt :name and :sport keys — but I only want the very last :sport key for each :name. This seems like a difficult thing to pull off :/
12:00	whidden_	Hi guys, question: When using swank.clojure where do the pre/post function assertion messages go? I don't seem to see them on in any of the regular places.
12:01	arohner	whidden_: it depends on how your code was called
12:02	arohner	usually, it goes to where the repl output goes, but if the call happened in another thread, it might go to the console (the terminal where you started the app)
12:03	arohner	whidden_: actually, wait. there are no messages, unless the assertion failed, or you did {:post [(do (println ...) true)]}
12:03	whidden_	arohner: hmmm that is what I thought too, and I don't see any messages for assertion failure in those places. Is the assertion a checked or unchecked exception?
12:04	arohner	whidden_: it's a j.l.AssertionError
12:05	arohner	what does your assertion look like?
12:07	whidden_	arohner:
12:07	whidden_	{:pre [(string? label) (map? resource-map) (or (empty? resource-map) (:map-start-time resource-map))
12:07	whidden_	(map? tsk) (:duration tsk) (or (nil? fit-time) (float? fit-time) (integer? fit-time))]
12:07	whidden_	:post [(map? %)]}
12:07	arohner	whidden_: do the assertions fire if you call the fn in the repl?
12:07	whidden_	yes
12:08	arohner	whidden_: so then what's the problem?
12:09	whidden_	arohner: when running from another thread or jar file, i don't see the assertion messages anywhere and thus don't know the cause of the failure.
12:10	arohner	whidden_: there isn't a message by default. the assertion just throws the j.l.AssertionError if it fails
12:11	arohner	whidden_: maybe you're not catching the exception? or catching it somewhere you don't intend?
12:11	whidden_	arohner: <bing!> crap... I see now what is going on when running.. I catch all those errors in one bucket :(
12:11	whidden_	arohner: catching it in another place and thinking its an entirly different beast... thanks.. mystery solved.
12:11	arohner	np
12:20	lobotomy_	hmm, trying to run lazybot, it says: Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate irclj/core__init.class or irclj/core.clj on classpath: (registry.clj:1)
12:20	lobotomy_	i ran "lein deps" which put an irclj jar into libs/
12:20	michaelr525	hhey!!
12:21	lobotomy_	and the ./lazybot does "java -cp lib/*: ..." so it should pick that up?
12:24	manutter	lobotomy_: are you building a jar file with lein jar?
12:24	manutter	or lein uberjar
12:25	lobotomy_	hmm, no, just "lein deps", edit .lazybot/info.clj, then "./lazybot"
12:31	pjstadig	cemerick: yes they do, but i think you get the option to pare the list
12:31	cemerick	pjstadig: hrm?
12:31	cemerick	oh, notifications
12:31	pjstadig	cemerick: yeah
12:32	cemerick	pjstadig: how? I don't see any X's, hovers, etc…
12:34	lobotomy_	ok, "lein jar" from the main lazybot dir gives the same error, irclj not found...
12:34	lobotomy_	wonder if my lein on this machine is somehow broken. grr
12:34	michaelr525	Error occurred during initialization of VM Could not reserve enough space for object heap
12:34	pjstadig	cemerick: yeah never mind...they just show a list of "people to be notified" on the right hand side now
12:35	pjstadig	i thought they used to be checkboxes
12:35	cemerick	Yeah; it makes me feel a little bad to send a pull request and pop notifications on dozens of people.
12:35	technomancy	they used to let you choose who to notify with a big ol' "notify everyone who has ever touched this project" featured prominently at the top
12:35	technomancy	now it's just committers I think, but it's easy for them to turn down the noise if someone's annoyed
12:36	cemerick	technomancy: Where's that knob? I get a pile of noise from repos I have commit on…
12:36	cemerick	I think you can only turn them on/off globally, which sucks.
12:37	technomancy	it's hidden pretty deep iirc
12:38	technomancy	oh, never mind; I'm thinking of the option to abdicate committership
12:39	mbac	curl: (22) The requested URL returned error: 404
12:39	mbac	Failed to download https://github.com/downloads/technomancy/leiningen/leiningen-2.0.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar
12:39	mbac	:(
12:39	simonjb	hi all, I've got a newbie swank-clojure question maybe someone could help me with -- if I've messed up my VM, say by redefining some fundamental function, can I reset swank without restarting emacs?
12:41	mdeboard`	simonjb: Did you do M-x swank<tab> to see if tab-completion has like a swank-reset ? I believe it does
12:42	lobotomy_	now on this other machine, "git clone https://github.com/flatland/lazybot.git" is failing with fatal: https://github.com/flatland/lazybot.git/info/refs download error - The requested URL returned error: 403
12:42	mdeboard`	swank-repl-restart or something
12:42	mbac	oh that was head in the repo not the stable one
12:42	mdeboard`	lobotomy_: Use the git:// or git@ directory
12:42	mdeboard`	imo
12:42	simonjb	mdeboard`: I'll have a look, thanks!
12:43	lobotomy_	ok, s/https/git/ indeed works... sigh
12:45	simonjb	mdeboard`: M-x swank<tab> isn't finding anything
12:45	mdeboard`	wow did i say git@ directory? ugh
12:45	mdeboard`	anyway lobotomy_ glad it worked
12:45	lobotomy_	ok, "lein jar" is giving the same error on this machine as well
12:46	lobotomy_	so in short, lazybot doesn't seem to compile
12:46	mdeboard`	simonjb: uh hm, were you in a clojure-mode buffer when you tried it?
12:47	simonjb	mdeboard`: yes, also tried from the slime-repl buffer -- maybe my swank setup is different from yours?
12:48	mdeboard`	simonjb: Sounds like you tried to do too much getting emacs configured properly for clojure
12:48	lobotomy_	(though on this machine, just "lein" seems to hang forever, after displaying the help text. wtf. how do i determine whether it's my lein or lazybot (or something else) that's broken here)
12:48	mdeboard`	simonjb: I say that because you're' having the problems I did when I first started. Simple fact is that most of the tutorials and blog posts about using slime-repl with emacs are woefully out of date
12:49	mdeboard`	simonjb: All you need is leiningen and clojure mode, really.
12:49	mdeboard`	lobotomy_: lein takes forever because the jvm takes forever
12:49	lobotomy_	you mean literally forever?
12:49	mdeboard`	simonjb: So if you've got like "require swank" or "require slime" somewhere in your .emacs/init.el you're doing it wrong
12:50	mdeboard`	lobotomy_: Oh. Well, no. :P
12:52	simonjb	mdeboard`: I'll check -- I think my setup is pretty minimal -- I installed clojure-mode using package.el and then used leiningen to install swank-clojure; I'm using clojure-jack-in to start swank and slime
12:53	mdeboard`	yeah that sounds about right
12:53	mdeboard`	Oh
12:53	mdeboard`	right, sorry, M-x slime-repl<tab> will yield restart results. I'm not sure about restarting swank independently of emacs. I'd suspect just stopping the slime-repl then jacking in again would be helpful... but I'm assuming you tried that and it didn't owrk?
13:00	technomancy	simonjb: you should be able to kill the swank buffer and re-run M-x clojure-jack-in
13:01	mdeboard`	Oh yeah, derp. Been awhile since I've clojured anything :-\
13:01	tufflax	Scorchin babilen (sort-by (juxt :a :b) ...) is better that columns, because it's in core and it takes all kinds of fns not only keywords, so you can do (sort-by (juxt first second) ...)
13:03	lobotomy_	(heh, "lein" does not in fact hang forever, it just takes around 74 seconds to finish)
13:04	technomancy	lobotomy_: probably you are starting up a non-daemon threadpool which shuts itself down after 60s
13:04	lobotomy_	i am? hmm... ok
13:05	technomancy	fsvo "you"
13:05	lobotomy_	this is from the lazybot main dir
13:05	simonjb	technomancy: perfect! thanks very much -- super awesome job on all your clojure tooling by the way!
13:07	lobotomy_	i see "lein" takes the same 74ish seconds from just my home dir, which has no project.clj in it
13:07	lobotomy_	so why would lein start a non-daemon threadpool? is my install broken?
13:09	technomancy	oh, if it's happening in ~ then it must be something else
13:12	lobotomy_	but i'd be more interested in getting lazybot to work/compile/anything, not sure if that's related to the state of my lein :)
13:13	mdeboard`	lobotomy_: I had trouble compiling one of amalloy's project's too :( 4clojure
13:13	mdeboard`	I say we blame him
13:13	mdeboard`	well, not compiling. I couldn't get 4clojure to work locally because of some threading issue or another that i can't remember
13:14	babilen	tufflax: thanks
13:18	amalloy	in fairness, lazybot is more Raynes's than mine
13:18	babilen	tufflax: Indeed, much better.
13:19	mdeboard`	amalloy: :P
13:19	tufflax	babilen :)
13:20	srid	is there actually a ring middleware that autocompiles ssas -> css? (google doesn't show any)
13:21	lobotomy_	amalloy, so how do i compile and/or run lazybot?
13:22	amalloy	lobotomy_: i just use lein swank to start interactive development
13:22	amalloy	and ./lazybot will launch it externally
13:24	lobotomy_	ok, wtf. lein swank seems to actually work
13:25	lobotomy_	./lazybot gives that error it always did (see above)
13:27	amalloy	lobotomy_: that's a lot of text to search to try and find your complaint
13:29	lobotomy_	git clone https://github.com/flatland/lazybot.git ; cd lazybot ; lein deps ; ./lazybot
13:29	lobotomy_	result: Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate irclj/core__init.class or irclj/core.clj on classpath: (registry.clj:1)
13:29	lobotomy_	there is in libs/ an libclj*.jar, which was put there by the lein deps
13:29	lobotomy_	and the ./lazybot script says something like java -cp lib/*:... so it should notice it too
13:31	amalloy	works for me
13:31	mdeboard`	works on my machine*
13:32	amalloy	fresh clone of lazybot with lein 1.5.2
13:32	lobotomy_	lein 1.5.2... hmm, i have 1.4.2
13:33	technomancy	lobotomy_: lib/* requires java 6
13:37	lobotomy_	i have java 1.6.0_26
13:42	lobotomy_	lein 1.6.1 and ./lazybot gives the same error... sigh
13:43	lobotomy_	but now "lein jar" gives a different one: Exception in thread "main" java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission modifyThread) (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
13:54	lobotomy_	but why does "lein swank" work when "./lazybot" doesn't. ps aux\|grep java tells me that with "lein swank", the full command line includes "-classpath <long list of jars including lib/irclj*.jar>". but the ./lazybot script should also do that, with the -cp thing... arrrgh
13:55	lobotomy_	fucking hell, i'll soon start programming in c, this java+clojure+leiningen+whatever bullshit is just ridiculous
13:55	lobotomy_	and i'll link all the libs statically too! so there
13:56	mdeboard`	lobotomy_: Calm down :P I agree it is frustrating working with the JVM
13:57	mdeboard`	sometimes*
14:00	lobotomy_	well, i'd just like to know exactly how to debug this mess
14:00	lobotomy_	is there a "clojure classpath & class loader basics for dummies" guide somewhere?
14:01	mdeboard`	lobotomy_: You ARE developing in WinXP right???
14:01	lazybot	mdeboard`: Oh, absolutely.
14:01	lobotomy_	hmm... "lein repl" starts up, gives the same exception (can't find irclj*), but still starts up; but then i enter anything into the repl and it says java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission createClassLoader)
14:02	mdeboard`	lobotomy_: Are your permissions set properly?
14:02	lobotomy_	apparently not
14:15	lobotomy_	amalloy, so the newest lazybot is working for you... could you list exactly what you did (which commands) to try it out?
14:15	mdrogalis	Is anyone planning to write a book or longer tutorial about Conjure?
14:16	amalloy	$ git clone git@github.com:flatland/lazybot.git tmp-lazy; cd tmp-lazy; lein deps; ./lazybot
14:16	mdeboard`	mdrogalis: Get Joy of Clojure, and/or Practical Clojure
14:17	mdrogalis	Okay, thanks mdeboard!
14:17	amalloy	mdrogalis: did you really mean Conjure?
14:17	gtklocker	Hello
14:17	amalloy	i don't think conjure is very popular
14:17	mdrogalis	Yeah, amalloy
14:18	mdrogalis	Really? Does it not get much pull for web frameworks, then?
14:19	amalloy	no, not really. depending on where you want the tradeoff between magic and control, most people use noir or compojure
14:19	lobotomy_	amalloy, and you have leiningen 1.5.2 and java... what?
14:19	lobotomy_	amalloy, the first command there is hopefully equivalent to "git clone git://github.com/flatland/lazybot.git tmp-lazy"
14:20	amalloy	lobotomy_: yes, though note that git@github.com works even if you don't have commit rights
14:20	amalloy	java version "1.6.0_20"; OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.9.9) (6b20-1.9.9-0ubuntu1~10.04.2); OpenJDK Client VM (build 19.0-b09, mixed mode, sharing)
14:21	lobotomy_	Permission denied (publickey). <- no it doesn't :p
14:21	whidden_	Is list all callers C-c C-w c, a slime function, not working for clojure?
14:21	amalloy	well, you have to have a key with github
14:21	amalloy	whidden_: probably not
14:21	lobotomy_	i have leiningen 1.6.1 and java 1.6.0_24 (official sun thing)
14:21	lobotomy_	and, yeah, it doesn't work
14:22	whidden_	<sigh>, if only I had another 36 more hours to the day, i'd try to fix that... oh well.
14:23	amalloy	whidden_: you'd need to fix it on the swank side, which i suspect would be pretty complicated
14:23	amalloy	in the meantime, M-x find-grep is good enough most of the time :P
14:23	lobotomy_	git clone git://github.com/flatland/lazybot.git tmp-lazy ; cd tmp-lazy ; lein deps ; ./lazybot # crashes due to not finding irclj
14:24	whidden_	yeah, find-grep is our friend.
14:24	technomancy	whidden_: there's some who-calls support in swank-clojure, but it's a bit rudimentary
14:25	technomancy	(I didn't write it)
14:25	amalloy	lobotomy_: lib/ should contain irclj-0.4.0-20101122.230502-4.jar
14:26	whidden_	technomancy: ok, i'll just stick with find-grep for now.
14:26	amalloy	(though wouldn't it be nice if Raynes ever released a non-snapshot version)
14:27	lobotomy_	other machine with java 1.6.0_26 (64 bit) does the same thing
14:28	lobotomy_	10597 2011-08-25 21:27 lib/irclj-0.4.0-20101122.230502-4.jar
14:28	lobotomy_	that's there on both machines, lein deps fetches it
14:29	lobotomy_	what else... both machines are running ubuntu
14:29	lobotomy_	9.10 for the java 1.6.0_24 one and 10.04 LTS for the newer 64-bit one
14:33	scottj	anyone know if clojure will ever automatically change maps into PersistentTreeMaps?
14:34	cemerick	those are for sorted maps
14:34	amalloy	scottj: huh?
14:34	S11001001	scottj: it's extremely unlikely
14:35	scottj	amalloy: I'm using congomongo 1.4 and it was giving me them
14:35	amalloy	S11001001: yes, i guess that's a good answer even though i don't understand the question. any way you read it it's not likely to happen
14:37	scottj	cemerick: ahh I was looking for PTM in the code but will search for sorted
14:37	amalloy	scottj: i can't think of a reason for it to sort things for you, but i also can't see why it would matter if it did
14:37	cemerick	scottj: You almost certainly shouldn't care about the implementing class.
14:38	scottj	amalloy: if you ask PTM's about a key with the wrong type you get an exception instead of nil, as opposed to other map types
14:38	amalloy	cemerick: say, do you know why sorted maps don't have a transient mode? is it somehow technically unfeasible, or just too much work to implement?
14:38	scottj	cemerick: that's what I thought, but turns out not in this case
14:39	scottj	&((assoc (clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap/EMPTY) :a 1) "a")
14:39	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.String
14:39	amalloy	scottj: well, that depends on the comparator you use for your sorted map
14:39	cemerick	scottj: keys in sorted maps or sets need to be comparable
14:39	scottj	&((assoc {} :a 1) "a")
14:39	lazybot	⇒ nil
14:40	scottj	cemerick: in which case you have to care about it
14:40	amalloy	but sure, fair enough
14:40	cemerick	scottj: you have to care about the semantics of the data structure, not its implementing class
14:41	cemerick	amalloy: I don't know right off. Probably more like, no one's gotten around to it.
14:41	cemerick	I know a fair bit of the transients impl. was done by cgrand, so it may simply be a matter of someone stepping up.
14:41	dnolen	amalloy: I think the goal was to have transients for all the current persistent data structures.
14:42	dnolen	sadly Clojurists are not as avid about putting new data structures together as the Scalaists
14:42	amalloy	hah
14:42	amalloy	we have hash maps, who needs data structures
14:42	cemerick	Someone could probably knock them out using deftype in fairly short order.
14:42	ibdknox	(inc amalloy) ;)
14:42	lazybot	⟹ 1
14:43	dnolen	amalloy: that really is part of the problem. you can go really far with the core data structures even if they are not always ideal.
14:44	amalloy	dnolen: yeah, that wasn't all a joke
14:44	ibdknox	dnolen: this is a problem with any language I think, though
14:45	dnolen	ibdknox: I dunno. Haskell and Scala seem to have data structures for every occasion.
14:45	mdrogalis	I'm trying to make a function that generates an infinite sequence of numbers, 1 to infinity
14:45	amalloy	ibdknox: what? nothing's ever stopped java developers from writing more classes
14:45	mdrogalis	Why does this cause a stack overflow? http://pastebin.com/fnM1EkNF
14:45	amalloy	(iterate inc 1)
14:45	ibdknox	dnolen: they may have many of them
14:45	mdrogalis	I wanted to write a function for it, amalloy. :)
14:45	ibdknox	dnolen: how often do they get used?
14:45	mdrogalis	Just to play with constructing an infinite sequence
14:45	ibdknox	dnolen: you have to first teach people what a finger tree is before they'll use it
14:45	dnolen	ibdknox: precisely when you need them which always at the worst time ;)
14:46	amalloy	$google dbyrne stackoverflow prime sequence
14:46	lazybot	[recursion - Recursive function causing a stack overflow - Stack ...] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2946764/recursive-function-causing-a-stack-overflow
14:46	ibdknox	haha
14:46	amalloy	mdrogalis: ^ is why
14:46	mdrogalis	Thanks amalloy! Ill read it now
14:46	ibdknox	amalloy: I meant more that people won't use them even if they're there, simply because they don't know what they are, or often, know enough to look for something else
14:48	mdrogalis	amalloy: My function doesn't use filter
14:48	amalloy	mdrogalis: you also seem to be mixing data types. a has to be a seq in order to concat it, and it has to be a number in order to add it
14:48	amalloy	it uses concat
14:48	amalloy	which is also lazy
14:48	amalloy	but now that i look again, that's not your problem
14:48	mdrogalis	Ah, yeah that's wrong, amalloy
14:48	amalloy	your problem is that everything here is evaluated eagerly
14:49	mdrogalis	What's forcing it to do that?
14:49	manutter	mdrogalis: how are you calling generate-infinite-seq?
14:49	mdrogalis	concat?
14:50	mdrogalis	(take 10 (generate-infinite-seq))
14:50	amalloy	no, just the fact that everything is eager unless you say so
14:50	manutter	ok, I see it
14:50	amalloy	&(nth ((fn f [n] (concat [n] (f (inc n)))) 1) 1e5)
14:50	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
14:50	manutter	I think I see it
14:50	amalloy	&(nth ((fn f [n] (lazy-seq (concat [n] (f (inc n))))) 1) 1e5)
14:50	lazybot	⇒ 100001
14:50	manutter	Isn't concat going to evaluate it's args first?
14:51	mdrogalis	In short, I'm jut trying to write a function that takes 0 parameters, or 1 parameter. If 0 parameters, join "1" with "2 3 4 5"
14:51	mdrogalis	If 2 parameters, return "2 3 4 5.."
14:51	manutter	or rather, clojure is going to evaluate the args to concat before passing them to concat proper
14:51	mdrogalis	Ah, that's much clearer, manutter
14:51	mdrogalis	So I need lazy-cat?
14:51	manutter	sounds like a winner :)
14:51	amalloy	mdrogalis: that would probably work, but it's not the right answer
14:51	manutter	I've never used it so I won't vouch for it personally ;)
14:52	mdrogalis	Right, the types are still wrong
14:52	amalloy	or, not the idiomatic one
14:52	amalloy	meh. the issue is more like "you shouldn't be using concat"
14:52	mdrogalis	I know it's not idiomatic Clojure. I just want to try making an infinite sequence myself.
14:52	mdrogalis	Why is that?
14:52	amalloy	mdrogalis: because you're just adding one element to the front of a sequence. that's what cons is for
14:53	mdrogalis	So I'm really looking for an "append" sort of function?
14:53	mdrogalis	IE [1 2] + [3] => [1 2 3]
14:53	ibdknox	,(doc cons)
14:53	clojurebot	"([x seq]); Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is the rest."
14:53	manutter	Yeah, I think you might be better off using lazy-seq directly and cons
14:53	amalloy	no, you're not. you want to put stuff in front
14:53	amalloy	just like you're doing. but use cons, not concat
14:53	mdrogalis	I thought that's inefficient?
14:53	ibdknox	?
14:53	mdrogalis	Okay, wait. What's the difference, then?
14:53	manutter	if you're being lazy, efficiency is not an issue ;)
14:53	amalloy	&(cons 1 [2])
14:54	lazybot	⇒ (1 2)
14:54	mdrogalis	Ah. I guess changing the head makes sense, that would be quick..
14:54	amalloy	&(concat [1] [2])
14:54	lazybot	⇒ (1 2)
14:54	amalloy	cons is like the fastest list-building operation there is
14:55	amalloy	concat has to do a bunch of work, create a lazy seq, look inside some other lazy seqs...cons is just a java constructor invocation
14:55	mdrogalis	I was in here once and someone told me not to use it because it's low level
14:55	mdrogalis	Okay. So now I'm really confused. When do I want cons, concat, or lazy-seq?
14:55	amalloy	mdrogalis: indeed. use (iterate inc 1) instead. but since you want to rewrite low-level operations, use low-level operations :P
14:55	dnolen	speaking of which, chouser, you never tried using finger trees w/ to represent source when macros have you?
14:56	mdrogalis	amalloy: Well said. Makes sense.
14:56	dnolen	writing macros I mean.
14:56	amalloy	dnolen: compile-time efficiency problems with match?
14:56	manutter	mdrogalis: so you want cons instead of concat to put them together, and lazy-seq to keep them from generating eagerly
14:57	amalloy	(inc manutter)
14:57	lazybot	⟹ 2
14:57	dnolen	amalloy: yeah I think the source of slowness w/ large matches is not the compilation algo, it's the source concatenation.
14:57	dnolen	we're not doing it very intelligently, but maybe it makes sense to just use a better data structure.
14:58	mdrogalis	I would have thought that (lazy-seq [1] [2] [3]) would return [1 2 3]
14:58	mdrogalis	Why's it just return (3)?
14:58	ibdknox	,(doc lazy-seq)
14:58	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls. See also - realized?"
14:58	amalloy	&(do [1] [2] [3])
14:58	lazybot	⇒ [3]
14:59	mdrogalis	I guess the doc doesn't make sense to me.
14:59	amalloy	~source lazy-seq
14:59	ibdknox	amalloy: that link is broken
14:59	ibdknox	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/f128af9d36dfcb268b6e9ea63676cf254c0f1c40/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L557
14:59	mdeboard`	Yeah those docs are impenetrable sometimes
15:00	mdeboard`	worst part of clojure imo
15:00	amalloy	it expands to, basically, (fn [] [1] [2] [3]), which evaluates the first two for side effects and returns the second
15:00	amalloy	*third
15:01	mdrogalis	How is that useful? :/ Im not getting it
15:01	amalloy	uhh
15:01	manutter	mdrogalis: look at the docs for lazy-seq on clojuredocs.org
15:01	amalloy	it's useful for people trying to do things differently than you are
15:01	mdrogalis	Okay. I think something just isn't clicking about manipulating sequences, is all.
15:01	amalloy	but generally, don't try to put multiple expressions in a (lazy-seq ...)
15:02	amalloy	it will just end in tears
15:02	ibdknox	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/lazy-seq
15:03	mdrogalis	Ohhh, I think I get it
15:03	mdrogalis	So lazy-seq generally takes 1 sequence as its argument?
15:03	manutter	mdrogalis: the argument to lazy-seq is a function body -- when you call (lazy-seq [1] [2] [3]), it's like writing a function (defn lazy-body [] [1] [2] [3])
15:03	manutter	oops, cross-talk
15:03	mdrogalis	Its starting to make sense now
15:03	clojurebot	Huh?
15:03	mdrogalis	Its like passing it a generator?
15:03	amalloy	mdrogalis: it takes an expression, which it later evaluates to produce a sequence
15:04	mdrogalis	And it only produces that sequence on demand, right?
15:04	manutter	mdrogalis: that's basically it
15:04	mdrogalis	That makes much more sense
15:05	manutter	It does not give you the seq, it gives you a function that gives you a seq
15:05	mdeboard`	mdrogalis: Functions in Clojure (and lisps in general) only RETURN their final value, aka the value in the tail position. All other values NOT in the tail position (aka not last) simply get evaluated for their side effects. They do not RETURN anything.
15:05	ibdknox	mdrogalis: lazy seqs are clojure's version of the generator pattern, yes.
15:06	mdrogalis	Okay, yeah I got'cha now
15:07	mdrogalis	That cleared up a lot for me, thanks guys!
15:08	tomoj	a bit weird to say that it gives you a function
15:09	ibdknox	tomoj: hm?
15:09	tomoj	unless I misunderstood, that lazy-seq gives you not a seq but a function that gives you a seq
15:09	ibdknox	,(type (range 0 3))
15:09	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
15:10	tomoj	which is suggestively correct maybe but sounds misleading, since you actually get a seq, and not a function
15:10	ibdknox	,(satisfies? iseq (range 0 3))
15:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: iseq in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:11	ibdknox	,(seq? (range 0 3))
15:11	clojurebot	true
15:11	arohner	is there already a bug for a gen-class not paying attention to an :import?
15:11	tomoj	&(isa? clojure.lang.LazySeq clojure.lang.ISeq )
15:11	lazybot	⇒ true
15:11	arohner	i.e. (:import foo.Bar) (:gen-class :methods [method [Bar] boolean])
15:11	mdeboard`	You're tearing me apart, isa?
15:11	ibdknox	hahaha
15:12	cemerick	arohner: That's by design IIRC. All class names in gen-class specs must be fully qualified.
15:12	arohner	cemerick: why?
15:13	arohner	if I have an import that matches, why not use it?
15:14	cemerick	arohner: I can only speculate at the rationale.
15:14	arohner	cemerick: sigh. Ok, thanks
15:15	cemerick	gen-class is often used in areas where the class in question hasn't been generated yet — so I can imagine that trying to carefully resolve only those short class names that are available and imported might have made an already-complicated macro even moreso.
15:17	cemerick	One could write a gen-class+ that addresses that fairly easily.
15:17	cemerick	(if one were to really care about it, that is)
15:19	coopernurse	hey folks, I just got a lein build working on a hosted Jenkins service.. cloudbees.com - they have a free tier. (sorry, this sounds like an ad, but I'm just some guy..)
15:19	technomancy	coopernurse: cool! did you have to install lein yourself?
15:19	coopernurse	I can share the incantation if anyone is interested.. they basically give you a private EC2 slice, and lein will happily bootstrap
15:20	coopernurse	technomancy: I followed the guide you had here (sort of) https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Using-Leiningen-with-the-Jenkins-CI-server
15:20	technomancy	I've contacted cloudbees about getting it preinstalled, but I haven't heard back from them in a while
15:20	coopernurse	but it turned out to be even easier
15:20	srid	coopernurse: where can I find details on limitations of their free tier?
15:20	coopernurse	srid: http://www.cloudbees.com/platform-pricing.cb
15:20	coopernurse	you get 300 minutes/month
15:20	coopernurse	on a ec2.small
15:21	srid	coopernurse: thx. oh, does it require me to pay for the EC2 instances?
15:21	coopernurse	technomancy: here's the build steps I used: http://i.imgur.com/2fJPG.png
15:22	srid	given the pain involved in keeping hudson running reliably for more than few days, i'd be inclined to pay for such a service anyway.
15:22	coopernurse	srid: agreed - it's just one of those things you don't want to deal with..
15:22	Hodapp	hmm.... we use Jenkins here and it rarely breaks
15:22	srid	would be awesome if they visually integrate with github
15:22	technomancy	coopernurse: lein test! is deps, clean, test fwiw
15:23	coopernurse	technomancy: ah, thanks
15:23	srid	its not so much about jenkins breaking as maintaining the whole ecosystem of CI servers.
15:25	technomancy	there's also travis for OSS CI; very interesting crowdsourced model
15:41	amalloy	wandering back into a previous conversation, mdrogalis and tomoj, i would say that it gives you a sequence which is backed by a function instead of by data
15:42	dnolen	nice, Racket recommends someone writing a Clojure compat layer, https://github.com/plt/racket/wiki/Intro-Projects
15:45	kwertii	anyone heard of Opa? (http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4336) seems like an ideal sort of application for Clojure
15:46	ska2342	Hi. Is anyone around who understands the impl of the history of Refs?
15:47	ibdknox	kwertii: I'm wary of anything that abstracts away that you're programming for the web. Those sorts of things are always very limited
15:48	kwertii	ibdknox: what do you mean by abstracts away that you're programming for the web? from what I can see, Opa is explicitly about writing web apps and only web apps
15:48	ibdknox	" aiming to make web programming transparent"
15:48	ibdknox	maybe I'm reading that wrong
15:49	kwertii	ibdknox: that means it handles generating boilerplate clientside javascript, validation, XSS protection, database CRUD, etc. for you
15:49	kwertii	ibdknox: http://opalang.org/
15:50	Somelauw	opa sounds funny
15:50	ibdknox	it means grandfather in German lol
15:50	amalloy	sounds yiddish
15:50	gtrak	how do I use the merge-servlet-keys fn in ring.util.servlet? I'm trying to add a middleware that blocks on authentication errors that depends on that
15:50	kwertii	I don't like the syntax, but it looks like (conceptually) an ideal way to set up web dev. I always hated doing all that redundant boilerplate CRUD code that's 99% exactly the same
15:50	amalloy	hey, i was right!
15:50	technomancy	means father in Korean iirc
15:50	solussd	I guess if anything goes wrong, you can use say 'oopa!'
15:50	kwertii	amalloy: Yiddish is almost exactly the same as German :p
15:51	ibdknox	kwertii: rails tries to do this too
15:51	ibdknox	I've also tried to d oit
15:51	kwertii	ibdknox: sort of... and fails...
15:51	ibdknox	eh
15:51	ibdknox	no real webapp is simple enough to make almost completely declarative
15:51	ibdknox	which the goal of something that abstracts crud boilerplate
15:51	ibdknox	is*
15:52	amalloy	my webserver is just (constantly {:status 404})
15:52	ibdknox	haha
15:52	gtrak	django's admin stuff seems pretty neet, but it's a headache to dig through the layers of abstraction
15:52	amalloy	seems pretty declarative
15:52	ibdknox	^ best programmer ever
15:53	ibdknox	gtrak: that's how it always is
15:53	kwertii	ibdknox: consider, say, a user signup page that just collects a username and password. How many times do you have to redundantly declare that in a Rails app (or any other standard web framework)? You have to have a database schema declaration (migration in Rails), a model that maps the db to Ruby, an HTML layer page that shows a box for it, Javascript that validates it on the client, and a controller that glues all of that together.
15:53	ibdknox	yep
15:53	Somelauw	ibdknox: In dutch as well :D
15:53	ibdknox	and you could standardize that
15:53	ibdknox	but what happens when it needs to be slightly different?
15:53	kwertii	ibdknox: yeah, 90%+ of that could be autogenerated
15:53	ibdknox	websites are rarely consistent
15:54	ibdknox	they're not like applications sadly
15:54	ibdknox	they're more like interactive images than anything
15:54	ivan__	ibdknox: yeah, and its not like a lot of the autogened stuff actaully takes long to write from scratch either
15:54	kwertii	ibdknox: it's a pareto distribution, 80% of your cases will be the same. do those automatically and the other 20% manually. ideally, instrument the autogenerator to allow you to plug in modification code, something clojure would be good at.
15:54	ivan__	its just we have a desire to automate things :P
15:55	gtrak	I was trying to learn web programming with django a couple years back, I scrapped that and know I'm building everything from scratch with clojure as a learning experiment
15:55	ibdknox	kwertii: scaffolding is generally frowned upon these days
15:55	gtrak	too much crap at once
15:55	ibdknox	gtrak: I bet you'll have a much better understanding of the web as a result
15:55	ivan__	that new seam framework uses it, i immediatly stopped looking at it
15:56	amalloy	gtrak: yes, i like using ring because i can tell exactly what i'm actually doing
15:56	ivan__	spring roo...
15:56	gtrak	yea, that's the plan, though I'm constantly paying the 'new and shiny' context switching overhead
15:56	gtrak	clojurescript came out and punched me in the face :-)
15:57	ibdknox	lol
15:57	ibdknox	gtrak: me too I guess
15:57	ibdknox	I've spent many years trying to create the ideal web framework
15:57	kwertii	ibdknox: I'm not sure what you mean by 'scaffolding'. if you mean it in the Rails sense of a code template engine that spits out some templates for you to edit, that's not at all what I mean. I mean an engine that auto-generates stuff at runtime which is parameterizable at runtime.
15:58	ibdknox	kwertii: I've written that too
15:58	kwertii	ibdknox: full stack from db to javascript?
15:58	ibdknox	kwertii: I ended up essentially replacing all of the crud functionality it generated at run time
15:58	kwertii	ibdknox: I would say that means there is some sort of design flaw somewhere :p
15:58	ibdknox	haha
15:58	ibdknox	you may think so
15:59	ibdknox	and I'm sure there were flaws
15:59	kwertii	ibdknox: I imagine that every step would be potentially customizable, but any given use of it would not need to customize more than 10% or 20%
15:59	gtrak	functional programming has more possibility of composition than OO anyway
15:59	dnolen	interesting, kinda suspected, Opa is built by a bunch of French OCaml hackers.
16:00	dnolen	https://github.com/MLstate/opalang/graphs/languages
16:00	kwertii	it's 2011 and we still have netsplits?
16:00	mbac	i know kwertii
16:00	mbac	wtf
16:01	ibdknox	kwertii: I'm not sure I agree. In my experience you still need to customize those sorts of components quite a bit
16:01	mbac	dnolen, is that a breakdown of LOCs in their git rpos?
16:01	dnolen	mbac: in the opalang repo yeah
16:02	mbac	wow it's based on ocaml?
16:02	mbac	opalang
16:02	kwertii	ibdknox: how about building it in pieces... instead of the Grand Unified Vision, some code that would handle generating Javascript for the client that validates the input and AJAX-syncs it to the database layer, all transparently?
16:02	dnolen	lang itself seems a bit odd syntax wise, like a JavaScript-y OCaml
16:02	kwertii	ibdknox: also, without such a framework, you're writing 100% of the code custom anyway, so if you can get that down to 90%, that's a win in some sense
16:03	mbac	yeah, it's thwarting my expectations
16:03	pjstadig	f
16:03	ibdknox	kwertii: some of what you just described is what I'm going to do with pinot
16:03	pjstadig	oops sorry stray keystroke
16:03	ibdknox	kwertii: though my goal isn't to create standard forms, just make them very easy to create
16:04	ibdknox	kwertii: remotes, for example handle abstracting the ajax away
16:04	kwertii	ibdknox: why Rails owned the market is because it automated 10% of what we were all doing in Struts or something similar.. and struts automated 10% of what we were all doing in manually created JSP stuff..
16:04	kwertii	ibdknox: that sounds very cool
16:05	ibdknox	kwertii: Rails lowered the barrier to entry I think. What they found out in the long run, however, was that they lowered it too far
16:05	ibdknox	kwertii: I think a library of common components can be built
16:05	ibdknox	kwertii: I don't think we have the base for such a thing yet though
16:05	kwertii	ibdknox: they stopped caring about improving it conceptually when they realized they could go around and charge ${ large number} for training and speaking fees
16:06	kwertii	ibdknox: yeah, it will have to be built up piecemeal and then assembled later
16:06	ibdknox	what I suspect we'll start to see are libraries that include cljs and clj
16:06	ibdknox	and you just require those in the right places
16:06	ibdknox	and the rest is magic
16:06	lnostdal	clojure needs a hackable reader :>
16:07	ibdknox	at some level, pinot is an example of that
16:07	kwertii	ibdknox: a layered system.. there could be a high level Opa-like abstraction on the very top for people who don't care about customization. or, if you do, you can rip that layer off and use the component subsystems yourself, directly.. much like Noir / Compojure / Ring
16:07	ibdknox	yep
16:08	ibdknox	but again, those pieces have to exist and they don't currently
16:08	ibdknox	some of them do
16:08	kwertii	we really need a Clojure equivalent of AllegroCache
16:09	kwertii	writing relational database mapping layers to Clojure makes me sad
16:10	ibdknox	You know, I don't generally here much talk of ClojureScript here. I get the feeling that the people most excited about it are actually outside of the "core" Clojure community.
16:10	ibdknox	hear*
16:10	mbac	i know ocaml and scheme what clojure tutorial would speak to me
16:10	ibdknox	which is interesting to me
16:10	ibdknox	amalloy: are you excited about cljs?
16:10	amalloy	ibdknox: meh
16:10	ibdknox	why?
16:10	clojurebot	ibdknox: because you can't handle the truth!
16:10	gtrak	it's still kind of a pain to get that all set up, compared to normal clojure
16:11	ibdknox	clojurebot: shutup :-p
16:11	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:11	kwertii	mbac: if you know Scheme already, I'd just jump in at learn-clojure.com or clojure.org and start reading about the software transactional memory
16:11	hiredman	because a big chunk of the clojure community doesn't do webapps
16:11	hiredman	they do big data processing apps
16:11	mbac	oh i don't know THAT much scheme
16:11	mbac	i know like 100x more ocaml than scheme
16:11	dnolen	ibdknox: I'm excited but been too busy to play around much with it yet.
16:11	ibdknox	dnolen: you have more important things to work on ;)
16:12	kwertii	ibdknox: I haven't heard much about Clojurescript in general. I've long thought that there should be some abstraction layer on top of javascript for doing DOM manipulation stuff in an arbitrary language, since that's the only way you will get non-JS to work on a Microsoft browser.
16:12	ibdknox	hiredman: based on the state of clojure survey the vast majority of Clojurians are doing websites
16:12	kwertii	ibdknox: I get the sense that most of those are hobby projects though
16:12	ibdknox	that's fair
16:12	pjstadig	ibdknox: or the vast majority of the survey respondents
16:12	kwertii	ibdknox: hiredman is probably right that most PAID Clojurians are doing data stuff
16:13	hiredman	ibdknox: the vast majority of professional clojure devs?
16:13	ibdknox	haha I may be the exception
16:13	kwertii	ibdknox: you are definitely the exception
16:14	kwertii	the vast majority of Clojure job ads I've seen are either investment banks / hedge funds, or "we're processing Big Data® in Clojure and we have this nifty Ruby on Rails frontend..."
16:14	dnolen	ibdknox: there's quite a few web projects written in Clojure. I'm sure if ClojureScript had come out sooner, the Clojure web projects would be using it.
16:14	ibdknox	dnolen: assuming someone cleans it up some, yeah. Working with it at this point is... rough.
16:14	ibdknox	the goog.* api's are awful
16:14	dnolen	ibdknox: the woven guys (FlightCaster) assessed and seem positive about it, which is a good sign.
16:15	hiredman	actually there is a guy, I forget his name, who wrote a clojure->js compiler months ago and it actually integrates well with existing clojure projects
16:15	amalloy	ibdknox: i may be more excited when there are decent development tools for cljs
16:15	hiredman	(crazy as that sounds)
16:15	mbac	there's no clojure on http://pleac.sourceforge.net/ eh?
16:15	sjl	I tried Clojurescript one night soon after it first came out… it turned out to be way more painful to actually get something on the screen to play with than, say, coffee script.
16:16	ibdknox	dnolen: yeah, we're excited about it too. The stuff I've been able to accomplish is encouraging.
16:16	ibdknox	amalloy: like what? (I'll build them.)
16:16	kwertii	I am convinced that the single main reason Clojure is not used more in pro web frontends now is that there is no ActiveRecord equivalent easy persistence solution, whereas there are thousands of code monkeys who can throw together a Rails app in a few days. doesn't make economic sense to pay someone to hand-roll a DB mapping layer in Clojure.
16:16	dnolen	sjl: agreed. Though I think that is readily fixed by something like cljs-watch.
16:16	amalloy	heh, i know
16:16	hiredman	https://github.com/zkim/cljs
16:16	sjl	dnolen: Ah, that definitely didn't exist when I was trying it out, yeah.
16:17	Somelauw	Where to find clojure job ads anyway?
16:17	ibdknox	I'll gladly build those sorts of things
16:17	kwertii	Somelauw: indeed.com
16:17	ibdknox	if I know what they are
16:17	ibdknox	I think the cljs-watch at least makes it bearable
16:17	sjl	The "development mode" instructions on the wiki are just so much stranger and more involved than other foo-to-js languages.
16:17	ibdknox	sjl: agreed
16:18	sjl	I have to pull in two separate js files? and goog.require? I just want to use jQuery.
16:18	ibdknox	well, I make that simpler at least
16:18	ibdknox	include bootstrap.js, and roll
16:18	hiredman	sjl: if you look at zkim/cljs it is way simple, it is really too bad using clojurescript with regular clojure got ignored
16:18	mbac	am i just unable to read or is there really no pleac clojure?
16:18	mbac	seems like some low-hanging fruit
16:19	sjl	hiredman: what does this fork change?
16:19	hiredman	it isn't a fork
16:19	dnolen	sjl: I'm sure after 2 months CoffeeScript was equally rough ;)
16:19	hiredman	it is a completely seperate implemention from before clojurescript existed
16:19	ibdknox	dnolen: I'm actually not sure
16:20	ibdknox	dnolen: so far the focus for cljs has been on correctness as opposed to experience
16:20	dnolen	ibdknox: what I mean the lang was sorted enough to be useful. ClojureScript is ahead on that front.
16:20	sjl	dnolen: Oh yeah, I just think the choice to build on/around Closure is going to add some inescapable painfulness that Coffeescript just doesn't have.
16:20	sjl	hiredman: Ahh
16:20	dnolen	sjl: beyond the limitations of what ClojureScript offers as a language sure.
16:20	ibdknox	yeah
16:21	dnolen	sjl: I like CoffeeScript, and use it. But it's the same stuff I've been doing for like 7 years now.
16:21	ibdknox	the problem is that Google Closure isn't a particularly well respected thing in the JS community
16:21	sjl	I really hope I'm wrong though, because Coffeescript is ugly as sin to me while Clojurescript looks a lot nicer as a language.
16:21	ibdknox	the result of that is that no one cares, there's no experiential documentation for it
16:22	dnolen	ibdknox: the JS community ... meh
16:22	tomoj	good, that gives us a head start
16:22	tomoj	:P
16:22	ibdknox	dnolen: I agree
16:22	dnolen	ibdknox: this part of what I'm going to rail on in my Strange Loop talk :D
16:22	ibdknox	dnolen: but the lack of experiential documentation really hurts a community that hitched their wagon onto it
16:22	gtrak	is there a swank for cljs?
16:23	dnolen	ibdknox: oh definitely. function of time. sure I wish things happened faster.
16:24	ibdknox	dnolen: yeah, I know. Ideally, we just completely abstract closure away and then it doesn't matter.
16:24	ibdknox	sjl: it is a lot nicer. I wrote a basic clone of d3 in maybe 100 lines of CLJS
16:25	dnolen	ibdknox: my challenge to front end web development. jQuery is too small. SproutCore too big. WTF. Somebody needs to work on that.
16:25	ibdknox	dnolen: on it.
16:26	sjl	ibdknox: so for cljs-watch, it says the default output is to "resources/public/cljs/bootstrap.js"
16:26	ibdknox	sjl: you can change it
16:26	sjl	Is that the only js file my web server needs to serve, or are there other ones skulking around somewhere that I need to be serving?
16:27	ibdknox	sjl: just that one
16:27	sjl	So it dumps Closure, etc all into that one file? That'd be perfect.
16:27	ibdknox	yes
16:27	ibdknox	it uses the simple optimization by default
16:27	ibdknox	which compiles everything into one file
16:28	ibdknox	you can change it to be like the dev instructions too though if you want it to be faster
16:28	ibdknox	I generally find it acceptable in terms of compilation time
16:29	sjl	Cool, I'll have to try it out
16:29	sjl	So… how do I install this and use it?
16:29	ibdknox	grab the cljs-watch file and put it on your path
16:29	ibdknox	as long as you have CLOJURESCRIPT_HOME setup, you're good to go
16:30	ibdknox	./cljs-watch starts watching the src/ directory based on wherever it was invoked
16:30	sjl	CLOJURESCRIPT_HOME is the git clone of the clojurescript repo, right?
16:31	ibdknox	it's the path to it, yes
16:31	ibdknox	without a trailing slash
16:32	ibdknox	and you have to have done script/bootstrap in clojurescript
16:35	sjl	Dear god, that was so much easier than when I last tried it.
16:35	ibdknox	haha
16:35	dnolen	sjl: open source man.
16:35	ibdknox	for other fun toys
16:35	ibdknox	look at brepl
16:36	sjl	dnolen: Yeah, but if I can't even get something on the screen to poke at it it's hard to contribute.
16:36	scottj	ibdknox: maybe add :output-to to the extended example to make it slightly easier for non-noir people to see specific syntax
16:36	dnolen	sjl: I agree. I haven't had toyed with CLJS much because of the slow code/compile cycle.
16:37	ibdknox	scottj: it's the compiler options syntax, but yeah, that would help :)
16:37	dnolen	ibdknox: did they get our CA?
16:37	dnolen	your
16:37	sjl	dnolen: Yeah, though cljs-watch seems to reuse the same JVM so it's not excruciating.
16:37	ibdknox	dnolen: they did, I'm on the list now
16:37	dnolen	ibdknox: cool.
16:38	ibdknox	I'm doing the node knockout this weekend
16:38	ibdknox	but after that I'll throw a patch together to add it to cljs proper
16:38	dnolen	ibdknox: gonna write yr knockout in cljs?
16:39	ibdknox	dnolen: I've thought about it... but given the short time period I'm too worried I'll run into an issue that'll eat all our time
16:39	dnolen	ibdknox: 48 hours?
16:39	ibdknox	dnolen: yessir
16:40	ibdknox	dnolen: doing a multiplayer tower defense game :)
16:40	scottj	gtrak: nope, there is a swank-js but not sure if any of it is useful from cljs.
16:40	scottj	ibdknox: I love that game :)
16:40	neotyk	Good morning everyone!
16:41	gtrak	ah
16:41	sjl	ibdknox: Hmm, what I am doing wrong here? $ cljs-watch '{:output-to "public/scripts/test.js"}'
16:41	gtrak	don't really understand how you can write clojure without slime/swank
16:41	scottj	gtrak: inferior-lisp
16:41	ibdknox	sjl: cljs-watch src/ {:output-to "blah" :output-dir "blah"}
16:42	gtrak	o i c
16:42	neotyk	cljs-watch? where do I get it from?
16:43	ibdknox	http://github.com/ibdknox/cljs-watch
16:43	scottj	ibdknox: is your td game going to be open sourced?
16:43	neotyk	found it
16:44	scottj	does anyone else using zsh have to escape the {} to cljs?
16:44	ibdknox	scottj: I dunno :) We'll have to see how it goes
16:44	sjl	scottj: Yes
16:44	scottj	sjl: is it all zsh's or some option we have enabled?
16:44	ibdknox	scottj: I definitely don't have to on bash
16:45	sjl	scottj: Not sure, but I'd be surprised if it were an option.
16:45	mbac	can you use defn to pattern match strings?
16:46	dnolen_	mbac: Clojure doesn't have native pattern matching support. But I've been working on that.
16:46	mbac	hmm
16:46	dnolen_	mbac: https://github.com/swannodette/match
16:46	michaelr525_	what's your regular clojure news site? I'm updating from http://planet.clojure.in/
16:46	scottj	michaelr525_: disclojure.org
16:46	gtrak	dnolen_, does lisp have native support for anything?
16:47	scottj	gtrak: lists
16:47	gtrak	ha, i guess so
16:47	ibdknox	dnolen_: btw, I'd love to have a chat sometime about what you'd like to see for the web.
16:47	dnolen_	mbac: pretty much anything you're using to from another lang is in match and then some.
16:47	dnolen_	ibdknox: definitely.
16:48	dnolen_	gtrak: well I guess i mean anything in the core clojure library.
16:48	mbac	hm. can you not define functions with def?
16:48	mbac	is it defn only?
16:48	gtrak	you can, ##(def (fn [] "yo"))
16:48	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
16:48	mbac	sorry if this is the wrong place for ultra noob questions
16:49	scottj	ibdknox: are there multiplayer td's for mobile? I'd pay for that.
16:49	gtrak	def just binds a var at root level
16:49	lnostdal	any "verbose mode" for lein? .. it seems stuck doing nothing; using CPU for a while, then 0%
16:49	mbac	oh. why's def bad?
16:49	gtrak	mbac, it doesn't work here b/c of the sandbox
16:49	mbac	oh is fn lambda?
16:49	ibdknox	scottj: I'm not sure, to be honest lol
16:49	gtrak	yes
16:49	scottj	ibdknox: ok, was thinking you could phonegap it
16:49	ibdknox	scottj: I haven't seen many (any?) actually multiplayer tower defense games
16:50	scottj	ibdknox: the original(?) starcraft map
16:50	ibdknox	scottj: yeah if it goes well, we may very well try to do that with it
16:50	mbac	er, wait, what did you bind (fn [] "yo") to?
16:50	gtrak	mbac, I forgot to put in the name of the var, like (def myfn (fn [] (body))
16:50	ibdknox	scottj: true
16:50	mbac	haha
16:50	scottj	ibdknox: multiplayer is how I first played it and spent an entire day strategizing with my freshman roomies on our build order
16:50	gtrak	my bad
16:50	ibdknox	scottj: I guess I see that as a step above simple tower defense
16:50	mbac	why is def considered bad?
16:50	gtrak	it's not bad
16:50	ibdknox	scottj: that's in the real-time strategy category for me
16:51	hiredman	mbac: def is not define
16:51	gtrak	mbac, why do you consider it bad?
16:51	mbac	16:49 < lazybot> java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
16:51	mbac	something gives me a feeling
16:51	hiredman	mbac: def does not create locals
16:51	gtrak	haha, lazybot is sandboxed to prevent any globabl state or I/O, that doesn't mean you can't do it in your own code
16:52	mbac	oh, does def stick things into the toplevel no matter what scope you say it in?
16:52	gtrak	yes
16:52	mbac	cool
16:52	scottj	ibdknox: are you going to go the all game state in a big map + pure functions route?
16:52	sjl	ibdknox: still no luck. Here's what my session looks like: http://d.pr/etek
16:52	mbac	why does dynamic scoping exist at all?
16:52	gtrak	mbac, but the real story is more complicated, you can bind vars thread-locally and unwind them like a stack
16:53	mbac	is this just to keep it lispy?
16:53	scottj	btw anyone found a cljs unit testing setup they like?
16:53	hiredman	mbac: it is useful for repl work
16:53	mbac	right, why not just have a let that special-cases top-level bindings?
16:53	hiredman	you can re-def a function without having to re-def all the functions that call it
16:54	mbac	oh, it's mutable
16:54	ibdknox	sjl: {:output-to "script/test.js" :output-dir "srcipt/"}
16:54	sjl	ibdknox: I mean I can just symlink the bootstrap.js script to where I want it, so it's not a huge deal.
16:54	gtrak	though sometimes when you re-def a def, you get old functions pointing at the value of the var before
16:54	ibdknox	sjl: yeah, but that should work, so if it doesn't I wanna figure out why :)
16:55	gtrak	you have to refer to the function you're re-deffing all the time by (var thevar) to avoid that and use late-binding
16:55	gtrak	or #'thevar
16:55	hiredman	gtrak: subtly incorrect
16:55	gtrak	damn, where'd i go wrong?
16:56	mbac	is defn preferred for defining functions even if you're not defining poly-arity function?
16:56	amalloy	mbac: yes, for defining top-level functions use defn
16:56	mbac	i suspect (def a (fun [] "yo")) tickles performance-nazis
16:56	sjl	ibdknox: Yeah, still no luck
16:57	amalloy	mbac: huh? why?
16:57	ibdknox	sjl: I wonder if the escaping screws it up somehow
16:57	gtrak	oh, the definition of defn is more complex than I expected
16:57	mbac	amalloy, don't performance-nazis freak out about unnecessary closures? :)
16:58	wwmorgan	Is there a ring wrapper that takes URL parameters like foo[0]=bar&foo[1]=baz and turns it into { "foo" ["bar", "baz" } ?
16:58	sjl	ibdknox: I tried just passing all the options as a big old string, but that doesn't help either
16:58	gtrak	wth is it doing?
16:58	mbac	(i expect defn does some magic to avoid the closure, but have no idea)
16:58	michaelr525_	after reading this: http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/08/clojure-partition-by-split-with-group.html
16:58	amalloy	(a) no, they don't; (b) neither of those is a closure
16:58	ibdknox	sjl: I used the same function that clojurescript's cljsc uses
16:58	michaelr525_	Isn't the separate function from clojure.contrib.seq iterates over the seq twice?
16:58	amalloy	(that is, neither a def/fn version nor a defn version
16:59	ibdknox	sjl: to grab those options
16:59	ibdknox	sjl: can you try it too
16:59	ibdknox	clojurescript/bin/cljsc ../samples/hello/ {:output ...}
16:59	amalloy	mbac: (fn [] "a") has no free variables, only free constants; "a" is embedded into the generated class
17:00	mbac	oh, you're right.
17:00	amalloy	and closures are super-cheap anyway; you get more performance benefit from using them to close over constant expressions than you lose from having to call a few more constructors
17:01	sjl	ibdknox: cljsc works
17:01	wwmorgan	FYI: got it, it's wrap-nested-params
17:01	ibdknox	sjl: k, I will have to figure that out then.
17:01	ibdknox	sjl: can't do it right this second, but I'll have a fix by tonight
17:02	sjl	ibdknox: It's cool, I'm not using clojurescript for anything important at the moment, just poking around. No rush.
17:02	sjl	My Clojure Minecraft bot framework is eating up all the free time I have to play with Clojure-related things anyway, hah.
17:03	ibdknox	hehe :)
17:03	mbac	i really like the stylish use of vectors in clojure
17:03	mbac	breaks up the parenthetical monotony
17:04	michaelr525_	,(require 'clojure.repl )
17:04	clojurebot	nil
17:04	ibdknox	sjl: clojurecraft certainly does look like fun, so I don't blame you
17:04	sjl	ibdknox: It's very fun, just lots to do to make it useful/practical
17:04	michaelr525_	,(require 'clojure.contrib.seq)
17:04	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/seq__init.class or clojure/contrib/seq.clj on classpath: >
17:05	michaelr525_	,(require 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
17:05	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/seq_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/seq_utils.clj on classpath: >
17:05	michaelr525_	err sorry\
17:05	gtrak	mbac, wait till you get to destructuring
17:06	michaelr525_	This function really bothers me: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.seq/separate
17:06	michaelr525_	Isn't the sequence iterated twice here? It doesn't seem to be performance wise..
17:06	gtrak	michaelr525, it's lazy
17:06	amalloy	michaelr525_: it's surprisingly difficult to iterate the sequence only once
17:07	michaelr525_	amalloy: using a for loop in c for example
17:07	gtrak	hopefully whatever you're doing to the data is more complex than an iteration step
17:07	amalloy	because you can't just mutate the lazy-seq returned by (remove) when the one returned by (filter) discovers that the predicate doesn't pass
17:08	michaelr525_	I haven't been writing code in C for years, but when I see something like this it bothers me :)
17:08	gtrak	michaelr525, how would you even do it in C? make copies?
17:08	gtrak	that seems much worse
17:09	gtrak	this is a clean, lazy, functional approach
17:09	michaelr525_	well, suppose that you have immutable collections in C, it would be same as in clojure except that it would be iterated only once
17:10	gtrak	you're really not thinking this through
17:10	amalloy	michaelr525_: except it wouldn't be lazy
17:10	mbac	grak, ?
17:10	michaelr525_	amalloy: ok, let's say that these immutable C sequences are lazy as well :)
17:11	mbac	destructuring-bind?
17:11	gtrak	mbac, something like that, yes
17:11	amalloy	michaelr525_: that's my point! C would have the same problem then - you couldn't do it
17:11	amalloy	try it. pretend you have immutable lazy sequences in C, and split an input sequence up based on a predicate. you can't do it
17:12	amalloy	you could do it eagerly in clojure if you wanted, by using doall to force everything before you return it
17:12	michaelr525_	hmm
17:12	hiredman	if the language was lazy (not just seqs) you could do it as a reduce
17:13	amalloy	hiredman: really? i guess i'm not used to thinking that lazily
17:13	amalloy	how would it work in, say, haskell?
17:14	amalloy	michaelr525_: it annoyed me too, so i wrote https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L23
17:15	amalloy	which transforms the input to make sure the predicate is only called once per item, but now it traverses the input seq three times
17:15	hiredman	(reduce (fn [[t f] e] (if (pred e) [(conj t e) f] [t (conj f e)])) [[] []] ...)
17:15	michaelr525_	amalloy: how about something like this:
17:15	michaelr525_	while( seq.next ){ if( seq.val is odd ) add to collection1 else add to collection2 }
17:16	michaelr525_	pseudo c\ ;)
17:16	amalloy	michaelr525_: you forgot "immutable"
17:16	amalloy	how do you implement "add to ___"?
17:17	michaelr525_	well, "it just works" :)
17:17	amalloy	good luck with that
17:18	michaelr525_	amalloy: i can't understand what is the principal problem doing it?
17:18	gtrak	ah, C just works so good, why don't we all use it?
17:19	leeda	with leiningen, how can i specify the type of a dependency as "pom"? /cc @technomancy
17:20	michaelr525_	hiredman: so is this solution faster than the elegant one with two filters?
17:20	hiredman	michaelr525_: no idea, and it's not lazy at all in clojure
17:20	amalloy	michaelr525_: it's a solution that would only work if clojure were inherently lazy like haskell is. in clojure as it is now, hiredman's solution eagerly constructs both input seqs immediately
17:20	amalloy	*output
17:21	michaelr525_	hmm i see
17:21	amalloy	michaelr525_: your solution involved mutating sequence B while you traverse sequence A - discarding immutability. you can discard laziness instead, if you want, but in an eager language you can't create two lazy outputs from the same input without either either mutation or multiple iteration
17:21	michaelr525_	what causes the evaluation of the seq?
17:21	leeda	technomancy: or, is it possible to just specify this: https://gist.github.com/a0ebc8b00fda0db6d831 as a dependency? :P
17:22	gtrak	leeda, anything is possible with robert-hooke
17:22	amalloy	pft
17:22	michaelr525_	hehe
17:22	leeda	gtrak: heh
17:23	hiredman	michaelr525_: anything that isn't lazy
17:23	hiredman	(e.g. if it doesn't return a lazy-seq it will most likely force at least some part of a lazy-seq)
17:23	amalloy	i think the answer to his specific question in this case was "reduce forces the whole input sequence"
17:23	michaelr525_	reduce is lazy, no?
17:23	hiredman	no
17:24	michaelr525_	ah
17:24	hiredman	there is no way to make reduce lazy in a non-lazy language
17:24	gtrak	how does haskell do it?
17:24	michaelr525_	why clojure is not fully lazy?
17:24	hiredman	haskell is lazy
17:24	technomancy	leeda: dependencies must be in maven repositories, if that's what you're asking
17:24	gtrak	i would think the inherent nature of reduce, turning a vector value into a scalar, can't be lazified
17:25	hiredman	michaelr525_: there are a set of tradeoffs around laziness, but the simplest answer is java interop
17:25	technomancy	gtrak: laziness in clojure is only for seqs, but for haskell it applies to any value
17:25	leeda	technomancy: yeah, i'm trying to specify javax.media/jai_core "1.1.3" as a dependency, but it doesn't seem to be working
17:25	leeda	technomancy: i found this article: http://sahits.ch/blog/?p=1038
17:25	hiredman	gtrak: if a process proceeds by the application of functions, and those functions are lazy, the process is lazy
17:26	gtrak	hiredman, can't you just wrap all that in closures and make it lazy?
17:26	technomancy	leeda: gross. did you try :type "pom"?
17:26	leeda	technomancy: which seems to say that i need to specify the dependency type as "pom" (<dependency>...<type>pom</type></dependency>)
17:26	michaelr525_	is there an irc program with a reversed flow - from the top down?
17:26	leeda	technomancy: but where would i put that?
17:26	michaelr525_	I get tired always looking down at the newest text
17:26	technomancy	leeda: in the dependency vector
17:26	hiredman	gtrak: you would effectively be writing a lazy sub language unable to interop easily with the rest of the language
17:26	leeda	[javax.media/jai_core "1.1.3" {:type "pom"}]?
17:27	leeda	technomancy: ^
17:27	gtrak	ah, but that would suffice, that's how ring does its middlewares
17:27	technomancy	leeda: lose the brackets and you're set
17:27	technomancy	err--the braces
17:27	technomancy	curlies
17:27	leeda	ah ok
17:28	leeda	technomancy: awesome, looks like that worked. thanks!
17:29	technomancy	cool
17:30	gtrak	if we have immutable structures, it wouldn't be too hard to make a lazify and deref macro to go with it
17:31	technomancy	sure, it's called delay
17:32	technomancy	just need all consumers ever to call force
17:33	technomancy	(doseq [n (all-ns) [_ v] (ns-map n)] (alter
17:33	hiredman	all the time, before everything
17:33	gtrak	i think non-lazy is a sane default for reasoning about a program, no?
17:33	technomancy	-var-root v (fn [f] (fn [o & args] (apply o (map force argsr)))))
17:33	technomancy	tada!
17:34	gtrak	technomancy, that makes me afraid
17:34	technomancy	gtrak: I had to split it into two IRC messages because a single one could not contain SO MUCH POWER
17:34	technomancy	much like the Killer Joke that had to be translated one word at a time
17:36	gtrak	my god
17:37	gtrak	does the universe explode if you run that on clojure.core?
17:37	technomancy	sure, FSVO universe
17:37	hiredman	yes
17:38	technomancy	considering it doesn't check for ifn? first, absolutely.
17:44	leeda	technomancy: another question, is it possible to force lein to use a specific repository for a certain dependency?
17:44	gtrak	so delay all the stuff you're interested in, then make a reader macro to do the force for you
17:45	amalloy	gtrak: sure, eager is a sane default if you're used to it, just like imperative is. i'm used to eager, so thinking about a lazy language is hard for me; but there was a time when i was used to imperative/mutation too
17:45	leeda	technomancy: since the one on maven is not working, i want to use a different repository for it
17:45	leeda	technomancy: but it seems to prefer maven's
17:45	michaelr525_	why i can't any longer mark and install packages in package-list-packages?
17:45	gtrak	amalloy, yea, I've never used haskell so I guess I can't make the judgment
17:45	michaelr525_	I an X don't do anytjhin
17:45	gtrak	I think immutability simplifies things very much
17:47	michaelr525_	oh, it's a built in package
17:48	gtrak	amalloy, the jump from mutability to immutability is not conceptually difficult i think, but it can be hard to persuade someone that it's better and necessary full-on, I'm already persuaded that laziness is better at times, but... it messes with the whole knowing what it's going to do aspect of programming that we rely on so much. Is it not an issue in haskell?
17:48	leeda	technomancy: ok, never mind, it was my mistake
17:48	amalloy	(a) i think moving to immutability scares a lot of people; (b) i barely know my way around in haskell, so ask someone else :P
17:49	michaelr525`	hello
17:49	gtrak	well, it made me feel all giddy, but i've only spent a few years programming in total
17:50	technomancy	gtrak: it's a known issue in haskell that you can't easily reason about performance; see http://ro-che.info/ccc/11.html
17:51	gtrak	ha
17:51	technomancy	(I really wish that comic had gone for more than 12 strips)
17:51	hiredman	but in some sense everything has the same issue
17:52	hiredman	reasoning about performance in the presence of a jit is difficult, etc
17:53	gtrak	hiredman, yes, so no real-time perf guarantees, but there's a whole bunch of work where the benefits outweigh the costs, for instance, you can't have immutables without a GC or ref-counting at least
17:54	hiredman	but even the architecture of a cpu is getting to the point where it can be hard to eyeball performance for native code
17:55	gtrak	on a much smaller scale, though
17:55	dnolen_	hiredman: but you can still ballpark it. I dunno, Clojure kind of maps directly to JVM bytecodes almost, so I think reasoning about performance in Clojure is not so hard.
17:55	technomancy	yeah, that's true. brb; switching to forth.
17:55	technomancy	=)
17:56	gtrak	all the cache-optimizing stuff is harder to do
17:56	dnolen_	Haskell on the other hand goes through some hardcore transformations.
17:58	hiredman	dnolen_: it does map really well to jvm bytecode, but what is the performance of the bytecode, hard to tell without profiling
17:59	gtrak	hickey cares about identity at slices in time though, that's one of the trade-offs
18:00	dnolen_	hiredman: I dunno. Java was designed to make typical C++ code run quickly. It's easy to see what going to be fast. mutable fields, method lookup, arithmetic.
18:00	dnolen_	C++ looking code.
18:01	dnolen_	all those things are preserved in Clojure, since they are the fast path.
18:01	hiredman	mmm
18:02	dnolen_	of course there's weird run time optimizations, like collapsing method calls, but that's just icing.
18:02	Somelauw	wouldn't dynanicismn make it a bit slower
18:03	hiredman	dnolen_: by collapsing method calls you mean inlining?
18:03	dnolen_	hiredman: yeah
18:03	gtrak	not terribly 'weird'
18:03	hiredman	because I am pretty sure every jvm talk I've seen has called that "THE optimization"
18:03	hiredman	instead of just "icing"
18:04	hiredman	inlining multiplies the power of other optimizations by giving them more code to work with
18:05	dnolen_	hiredman: point is, yes it's hard to reason about the nature of the inlining. But I think it's not hard to see what style of code has the potential to get inlined.
18:06	hiredman	dnolen_: sure
18:09	gtrak	dnolen_, it'll run faster than you think it will, not so hard :-)
18:14	gtrak	there was a cool article about that, something about putting a for-loop body in a separate method can help a lot
18:15	gtrak	i think b/c it's likely to lower the code in the method under the inlining threshold
18:29	Somelauw	When doing (let [x 5]) would the clojure compiler infer that x is a static int?
18:32	Scriptor	Somelauw: infer wouldn't really be the right word, I think
18:33	Scriptor	x would just be pointing to something that happened to be an int, just like in any other dynamically typed language
18:34	hiredman	actually for locals create by let you do get type inference
18:34	hiredman	x would be a primitive long (in 1.3)
18:40	Somelauw	Scriptor: I though java created ints on the stack like c.
18:41	hiredman	you asked about clojure, not java
18:41	amalloy	Somelauw: java puts all locals on the stack. it's just that for pointer-typed locals, it has to allocate an object on the heap for the local to point at
18:43	Somelauw	So clojure uses an Integer for that by default?
18:43	Scriptor	exactly
18:43	hiredman	depends
18:43	Scriptor	well
18:43	Scriptor	doesn't it use Long a lot of the time?
18:43	hiredman	no
18:44	dnolen_	Somelauw: 1.2 boxed Integer, not 1.3, unboxed long
18:44	Somelauw	Go clojure 1.3 :D
18:44	Scriptor	yea, long, not Long :p
18:44	dnolen_	Somelauw: arith perf in 1.3 is stellar with much less type hinting.
18:45	mbac	how does the jvm tell the difference between immediates and references? does it use a tag bit?
18:45	amalloy	well, there are still a lot of Longs being used in 1.3 because you pass them around to other functions. but locally you can use primitive longs
18:45	mbac	oh, maybe there's runtime type information
18:45	mbac	duh
18:45	dnolen_	amalloy: unless of course you're passing them to fns w/ prim signatures.
18:45	amalloy	sure
18:46	dnolen_	like +, -, *, = etc
18:46	Somelauw	ok thanks
18:46	amalloy	mbac: java has compile-time and run-time type information. stuff like "is this an int or an object" is done at compile time
18:48	hiredman	dnolen_: which are likely to be inlined into static method calls by the compiler and then into jadd by the jit
18:48	dnolen_	hiredman: :)
18:48	mbac	amalloy, is the run-time type information for the GC only?
18:48	amalloy	no, it's mostly to preserve type safety
18:48	hiredman	if only I did expensive computations on numbers, how fast my programs would be
18:49	mbac	oh right, casts
18:49	amalloy	right
18:49	amalloy	and also virtual/dynamic method dispatch
18:49	mbac	oh right, inheritance :)
18:50	Scriptor	so with 1.2 and before with the boxed ints, did variables just store a reference to an Object?
18:51	dnolen_	hiredman: Clojure is one giant expensive computation on numbers.
18:51	hiredman	dnolen_: blah blah blah turning blah blah blah
18:52	hiredman	turing
18:52	dnolen_	all the persistent data structure we love so much ...
18:52	hiredman	Scriptor: (let [x (int 1)] ...) x is a primitve int
18:55	Scriptor	as in x is directly placed on the stack as an int?
18:55	hiredman	depends on the jvm
18:56	hiredman	x inside that let is equiv to 'int x;' in a java method body
18:56	Scriptor	ah, got it
18:57	Scriptor	what if you did (def x 1), I know it creates a Var object, but what does that point to?
18:57	hiredman	a Long or Integer
18:57	hiredman	vars hold objects
18:58	Scriptor	ah, so unboxing won't work with def?
18:58	Scriptor	meaning, it won't store it as an unboxed long
18:59	hiredman	right, but you can do (def x 1) … (let [x (int x)] …) …
18:59	Scriptor	interesting, thanks!
19:04	amalloy	several times i've seen code like (if (> (count xs) 3) ...), which counts the whole sequence even though it doesn't have to. of course it's not hard to do the short-circuiting manually, but does anyone know of a built-in like (has-more-than 3 xs) that i can point people at?
19:09	Somelauw	amalloy: Unpacking it in a let?
19:09	amalloy	huh?
19:12	Somelauw	Well you don't need to check its length since you can unpack it. Like (let [[a b c & d] 3-elementer] body)
19:14	Somelauw	Oh wait, that doesn't check its length. nvm. Only if-let does for a single element.
19:21	ibdknox	does anyone know the implications of the EPL license on Clojure? Does it limit a company in some way?
19:21	amalloy	Somelauw: that also only works if the length is known at compile time, and is small enough that it's not painful to type out a long destructuring form
19:22	danlarkin	ibdknox: it limits a company in exactly the ways specified in the license, and no others
19:22	amalloy	the easiest way to do it is like (if (nthnext xs 2) (...there are at least three elements...))
19:22	ibdknox	danlarkin: why thank you for that wonderful response.
19:23	danlarkin	ask smart questions if you want smart answers :)
19:23	amalloy	but of course for vectors and other Counted things, that's actually slower than just calling count and comparing
19:23	danlarkin	sorry, that was a little too mean
19:23	ibdknox	Yeah
19:24	ibdknox	definitely encourages people to participate
19:24	danlarkin	yeah yeah yeah
19:24	ibdknox	My question was legitimate, this room is full of professional clojure devs who use clojure at a company. I was essentially asking if anyone hit any gotchas with the license.
19:25	danlarkin	ibdknox: do you have specific concerns about the EPL? or just asking in general
19:25	ibdknox	I'm trying to make sure it's safe for me to leave Noir as EPL
19:25	danlarkin	wikipedia has a good summary
19:26	ibdknox	danlarkin: I've read it.
19:26	ibdknox	Again, just asking if anyone has hit any issues
19:27	technomancy	ibdknox: it means no one can distribute modified versions of noir without making them public, which is probably what you want.
19:27	ibdknox	technomancy: yeah, I thought so too.
19:31	Somelauw	How about (if (last (take 3 (iterate next seq))))
19:32	Somelauw	Nevermind. There is nthnext like you posted.
19:32	mbac	how does clojure qualify .methodCall foo?
19:32	mbac	does it figure it out based on the type of foo?
19:33	mbac	that seems impossible
19:33	amalloy	Somelauw: and last/take won't work anyway, because the sequence could be [1 2 nil]
19:34	mbac	i notice, say, .substring works even though i didn't import anything
19:34	technomancy	mbac: for non-hinted calls it reflects at runtime
19:34	Somelauw	mbac: I think it is a long sequence of foe getClass getMethods invoke
19:35	mbac	woa
19:35	gtrak	mbac, if you turn on reflection warnings, you can see exactly what it infers or doesn't
19:46	amalloy	mbac: importing has nothing to do with it, in either java or clojure
19:46	mbac	what does import do, then?
19:47	amalloy	it just gives you shortcuts for the classnames, when you need to type them, such as to declare a new variable or perform a cast
19:47	mbac	er? isn't that the same as qualifying names?
19:48	amalloy	System.out.println(x) works, even though i haven't imported the PrintWriter class of which println is a member
19:49	mbac	oic
21:37	gridaphobe	is there any reason to worry about reflection if i'm not doing any java interop?
21:37	amalloy	no
21:38	gridaphobe	thanks :)
21:38	gridaphobe	that's what i thought
22:50	gstamp	is it possible to type hint a def? I have (def english-analyzer (EnglishAnalyzer. Version/LUCENE_31 #{})) and I'm not sure how it is supposed to be type hinted.
22:54	gstamp	actually, it looks like if I type hint it where it's used then it works
22:59	cemerick	gstamp: you hint the var's name
23:00	amalloy	cemerick: i was just thinking, you could pick up the hint from the init expr in this case, but it would be wrong in general because vars can change, right?
23:00	gstamp	cemerick: thanks. that seems to work well.
23:01	cemerick	gstamp: or the symbol at the call site — either way. Didn't mean to imply one was necessarily superior.
23:02	cemerick	amalloy: Yeah, alter-var-root, and then newly-loaded code is not helped at all.
23:02	cemerick	or binding, or whatever
23:02	gstamp	cemerick: I imagine in general it would be easier to manage on the var
23:03	amalloy	okay. just wanted to make sure my hinting fundamentals are halfway solid :P
23:03	cemerick	gstamp: Certainly easier if you have multiple ambiguous interop usages. Plus, it's reasonable documentation.
23:03	cemerick	amalloy: :-)
23:04	cemerick	If you're concerned on that front, make sure you keep an eye on 811.