#clojure – 2011-07-15

2011-07-15

01:46	Demosthenes	so i'm a lisp scripter (history of common lisp and racket) looking to distribute binaries to multiple platforms, any feedback on doing that for clojure (ie: windows w/ msi, linux?)
02:43	ihodes	Demosthenes: maybe I don't understand you, but can't you send off a jar?
03:36	dans_	can you clever folks give me some book recommendations?
03:40	Dranik	Practical Clojure and then The Joy of Clojure
03:43	dans_	reading practical clojure :)
03:43	dans_	but i didnt mean just clojure or programming....just in general
03:46	Dranik	have a look at rich hickey clojure bookshelf
03:47	Dranik	http://www.amazon.com/Clojure-Bookshelf/lm/R3LG3ZBZS4GCTH
03:49	dans_	thanks
03:50	dans_	ah nice
05:54	tsdh	Does (:foo {:foo "bla"}) work because maps implement clojure.lang.ILookup?
06:04	bsteuber	yes
06:04	terom	tsdh: I think so, yes, at least based on skimming clojure.lang.Keyword source
06:04	bsteuber	if(obj instanceof ILookup)
06:04	bsteuber	return ((ILookup)obj).valAt(this);
06:04	bsteuber	return RT.get(obj, this);
06:05	tsdh	Hm, would it be possible to make that interface a protocol, so that you could extend other types to support keyword lookup?
06:06	tsdh	For example, I'd love to write (:name myNode) instead of (value myNode :name).
06:08	bsteuber	tsdh: how about using a record?
06:08	bsteuber	or is it a java type you don't own?
06:19	Pupeno_	Hello.
06:21	Pupeno_	Anyone using Clojure+Slime on Aquamacs?
06:25	tsdh	bsteuber: It's a java type I do know.
06:32	bsteuber	tsdh: then you're screwed basially
06:33	bsteuber	you could subclass it oO
06:33	bsteuber	but probably you just want to use your own ILookup replacement without the syntactic sugar
06:34	tsdh	bsteuber: Well, basically, the java types are in my control, so I could implement ILookup. But I don't want to create a dependency to clojure only because of some syntactic sugar.
06:42	tibbe	anyone know why PersistentHashMap uses hash collision leaves instead of extended hashing?
07:06	Dranik	hi all!
07:06	bendlas	hi
07:07	Dranik	I'm still struggling with utf8
07:07	Dranik	this is what I'm doing
07:07	Dranik	https://gist.github.com/1084495
07:07	Dranik	the encoding is still broken.
07:08	Dranik	how to fix the encoding?
07:13	cemerick	Dranik: Seems like that should be [:headers "Content-Type"]
07:13	Dranik	let me try...
07:15	Dranik	cemerick: didn't work :-(
07:17	cemerick	Dranik: Clojure will load your source file as UTF8; is it saved in some other encoding?
07:18	Dranik	it shouldn't be bcs I use linux with LANG="ru_RU.UTF-8"
07:18	cemerick	(BTW, you can use the ring.util.response/content-type fn instead of rolling your own assoc-in)
07:19	cemerick	I'd double check in any case :-)
07:19	Dranik	cemerick: can you show how?
07:19	cemerick	how what? Check the file encoding?
07:20	Dranik	ok, wait, I'll try the content-type fn
07:21	cemerick	That shouldn't do anything different than what you have, it's just better to use a standard fn instead of rolling your own.
07:21	Dranik	agree
07:22	Dranik	though I still can't understend why it doesn't work
07:22	cemerick	Anyway, `file -I foo.txt` will (usually) report the encoding of files for me. (OS X here) Presumably the linux file command is similar enough.
07:23	Dranik	routes.clj: text/html; charset=utf-8
07:23	cemerick	next, I'd curl -v the URL to see exactly what is being sent
07:23	Dranik	moment...
07:25	Dranik	Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
07:25	Dranik	and question marks in conent instead of unicode letters
07:27	cemerick	ah, progress
07:27	bendlas	Dranik: that's because most user agents send smth like "Accept-Charset:ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.3"
07:27	bendlas	notice that ISO-8859-1 is preferred over utf-8
07:28	cemerick	oh, hah
07:28	bendlas	and web servers oblige
07:28	cemerick	You're setting the content type on the request, not the response.
07:28	Dranik	ok, how to set it on the response?
07:29	bendlas	the charset is subject to content negotiation
07:29	bendlas	AFAIR the served variant is chosen by the highest score
07:29	Dranik	btw, how to get the user's input in utf-8 if he posts a form?
07:30	cemerick	bendlas: That's if the server supports the Accept headers; Ring doesn't, at least not out of the box (though I'm sure there's middleware somewhere that does).
07:31	bendlas	cemerick: for the mime type that's true
07:31	cemerick	Dranik: Something like (assoc-in (handler request) [:headers "Content-Type"] "text/html; charset=utf-8") will set it on the response, though you need to ensure that the handler's return value is coerced into a response object if necessary (it could be a String or File, etc).
07:31	bendlas	but I always supposed, that the accept-charset stuff is handled by jetty, ...
07:32	cemerick	Good point, I'm not sure.
07:32	cemerick	However, if you're setting Content-Type as a ring header, I really doubt that jetty will quash it down to ISO-XXXX.
07:32	bendlas	because that happens between Reader/Writer land and IOStream land
07:32	bendlas	let me check tough
07:33	Dranik	cemerick! yeah! that works!
07:33	Dranik	thanks!
07:34	Dranik	and how about the users input? will it be utf-8 out of the box?
07:34	bendlas	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj#L71
07:34	bendlas	Dranik: java Strings are always unicode
07:35	bendlas	UTF-16 though (which doesn't have to bother you)
07:35	Fossi	exept for the boms ;)
07:35	Dranik	great!
07:36	Dranik	bendlas: thanks
07:36	bendlas	you only need to be careful when reading from an InputStream
07:36	Dranik	is there anywhere an architecture description of Ring?
07:36	bendlas	i.e. slurp
07:36	Fossi	Dranik: yes, should be first or second hit on google
07:39	bendlas	Dranik: hmm actually, you do get user input as an InputStream
07:39	bendlas	the :body key on the request
07:40	bendlas	fortunately the request has a :character-encoding key to
07:40	Dranik	bendlas: so how to set it correctly?
07:40	bendlas	so you can do (InputStreamReader. (:body req) (:character-encoding req))
07:41	bendlas	to get a Reader Object from which you get properly decoded character data
07:41	Dranik	OMG, isn't there a simplier way?
07:42	bendlas	you need to read the inputstream anyway
07:43	bendlas	because you can't do anything with a plain inputstream
07:43	Dranik	why? if the user has just supplied his text in, for instance, in cyrillic encoding, I can access the form's fields
07:44	Dranik	the question is: whether it will work the same way for utf8
07:44	bendlas	you're talking about form data?
07:44	Dranik	yep
07:45	bendlas	that is handled by ring.middleware.params
07:45	bendlas	which does the decoding at https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/params.clj#L50
07:46	bendlas	so yeah, it should work
07:46	Dranik	but who does set the utf8 encoding there?
07:47	bendlas	the utf8 _decoding_ is done by slurp
07:47	Dranik	ok, great!
07:47	bendlas	which is aproximately (read-into-string (InputStreamReader. %))
07:47	Dranik	thanks!
07:47	bendlas	np
08:42	bsteuber	what parsing libraries exist for clojure now?
08:42	bsteuber	last time I checked there was only fnparse
08:43	bsteuber	but I guess there's more now
08:45	bendlas	bsteuber: last I've heard, CCW switched to cgrand's parsley
08:46	bendlas	https://github.com/cgrand/parsley
08:47	bsteuber	bendlas: thanks, looks interesting
08:48	bendlas	yw
09:03	jcromartie	interesting... https://github.com/SergeyDidenko/Simple-Persistence-for-Clojure this is exactly the sort of thing (replaying simple transactions/events) I was thinking about lately
09:04	jcromartie	one small step out of the tarpit, actually :)
09:07	jcromartie	now if you add invariants you've got something
09:31	jcromartie	Is there any sense in maintaining my own `clj' script or /Library/Clojure or any of the other nonsense I've cobbled together?
09:31	jcromartie	it seems to confuse lein
09:37	wjlroe	I'm trying to do some web dev with clojure and I want the code to reload through slime obviously but running this - `(future (run-jetty example {:port 8080}))` results in a stacktrace (java.lang.IllegalMonitorStateException) (I'm following the examples from http://techbehindtech.com/2010/08/24/compojure-demystified-with-an-example-part-4/ )
09:40	chrissbx	Is it better style to write [a b] instead of (vector a b) to return multiple values?
09:41	Chousuke	yes
09:41	Chousuke	use literals
09:42	Chousuke	vector literals are a popular alternative for (list a b) as well
09:44	chrissbx	Ok. BTW to my understanding "literal" means "constant", I find it a tad strange to say that vector syntax is a literal.
09:45	chrissbx	(The way you say it makes me guess that Clojure people are using the term this way freely, though.)
09:49	Chousuke	chrissbx: if it were a constant I'd say constant :P
09:50	Chousuke	though in a way, it is a constant. as code, it's a vector of two symbols
09:51	Chousuke	the resulf of evaluating such a form is context-dependent though :)
09:51	Chousuke	result*
09:53	chrissbx	Well, with this reasoning many expressions would be constant.
09:53	chrissbx	When I say literal, then I mean that the value of an expression is literally what I typed. Which isn't the case if symbols are replaced with values transparently.
09:54	Chousuke	[a b] is literally a vector of two symbols. it just evaluates to something else.
09:54	chrissbx	If there would be some way to capture the expression before the symbols are replaced, then calling it a literal would have some validity.
09:55	Chousuke	that's (quote [a b]). but that's literally a list of a symbol and a vector :P
09:55	chrissbx	So, you're saying that just a is a literal, too?
09:56	Scriptor	,(class (quote [a b]))
09:56	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
09:56	Chousuke	I'm not so sure about that.
09:56	chrissbx	Nah, quote really makes it a constant.
09:56	Chousuke	the value of [a b] is constant after evaluating it though
09:57	Chousuke	so it's kind of difficult
09:57	chrissbx	Well, any value from an expression is constant after evaluating the expression.
09:57	Chousuke	I'm not sure what you would call a vector form if not a literal
09:57	chrissbx	As long as the language is functional.
09:57	chrissbx	Just vector syntax.
09:57	chrissbx	But maybe this is just me.
09:58	Scriptor	what's this discussion about?
09:58	Chousuke	the syntax is irrelevant to it actually being a vector though.
09:58	Chousuke	[a b] is not equivalent to (vector a b)
09:58	Scriptor	huh, depends on the context, doesn't it?
09:58	Chousuke	(though they evaluate to the same thing)
09:59	Scriptor	if you're using a function, both will be evalauted to the same thing before you can do anything
09:59	Chousuke	in the end I guess it doesn't matter too much but it's interesting to think about
09:59	Scriptor	but if you use a macro they will be different lists
09:59	Scriptor	well, not lists per se
09:59	Chousuke	Scriptor: (vector a b) actually calls a function though. [a b] might do something else
10:00	Scriptor	Chousuke: ah, right
10:01	joegallo	i think we mean vector literal in the sense that c has string literals and java has array literals and javascript has array and object and regex literals -- that is, this isn't some made up clojure thing :)
10:01	joegallo	but yeah, it's just syntax
10:01	Scriptor	looks like when you pass [a b] to a macro it will pass an actual vector data structure
10:02	Chousuke	of course
10:02	Scriptor	but vector needs to evaluate before it passes that, which is why if you try to use it with let it will complain that it got a list instead
10:02	Chousuke	because [a b] is a vector :)
10:02	Scriptor	yep
10:02	Scriptor	hmm, this discussion is kind of like determinging whether
10:02	Chousuke	similarly if you give #{:foo :bar} to a macro you will get an actual set
10:03	Scriptor	5 is equivalent to (+ 2 3)
10:03	chrissbx	More like whether (infix 2 + 3) is equivalent to (+ 2 3)
10:03	chrissbx	(assuming that there's an infix form that translates to the latter)
10:03	Chousuke	Scriptor: the evaluated results of both forms are identical
10:04	Scriptor	Chousuke: right
10:04	Scriptor	but passed to a macro they're different data structures
10:04	Scriptor	the literal equals the result of the latter's evaluation
10:04	Chousuke	in other languages this probably is a non-issue but lisps are funny like that :P it actually matters what your code is
10:05	mdeboard	homoiconicity
10:05	Scriptor	I think it's a difference in how programmers read the code
10:05	chrissbx	Well, Clojure is probably the only lisp that has the vector syntax.
10:05	Chousuke	common lisp has too
10:05	Scriptor	someone might see (vector 2 3) and thinks "the vector of 2 and 3"
10:05	chrissbx	At least as source code (i.e. "literals" ;)
10:06	Chousuke	#(foo bar)... the difference is, they don't have evaluation semantics
10:06	Chousuke	or rather, it's just "return object as is"
10:06	Scriptor	whereas we would see "the vectorization of 2 and 3" if we're passing it to a macro
10:06	Chousuke	whereas in clojure the evaluation strategy for a vector is to return the vector you get from evaluating all elements in the vector.
10:08	Demosthenes	so i'm a lisp scripter (history of common lisp and racket) looking to distribute binaries to multiple platforms, any feedback on doing that for clojure (ie: windows w/ msi, linux?)
10:08	chrissbx	I wasn't aware that you can have vector syntax in source code in CL; but yes it is implicitely quoted (i.e. a real constant..)
10:08	Chousuke	Demosthenes: I think the most common way is to just do it the Java way. ie. jars
10:09	Chousuke	Demosthenes: it's not quite the same as native packages, but it works
10:09	mdeboard	unless you're compiling to javascript
10:09	mdeboard	right?
10:09	mdeboard	or how does that work for clj on other platforms
10:10	Scriptor	with CLI you can probably use one of the installer-builders that visual studio has
10:10	Demosthenes	my issue is i commonly use scripting languages, and i need to distribute a stand alone binary to customers for a project
10:11	Demosthenes	and racket might fit the bill because it can make exe's
10:11	Demosthenes	but libraries are an issue
10:11	Scriptor	you can use jars to pack all the libraries into it
10:11	Chousuke	leiningen can make uberjars for you
10:11	Scriptor	^
10:11	mdeboard	(inc Chousuke)
10:11	sexpbot	⟹ 1
10:12	Demosthenes	didn't someone just say they weren't like native packages?
10:12	Scriptor	quick question, how does the jvm know what code to start with in a jar/uberjar?
10:12	Scriptor	there aren't any main methods as far I see
10:12	Demosthenes	and can a windows user just doubleclick a jar to launch?
10:13	pjstadig	it writes the main method to call to the jar manifest or something
10:16	cemerick	Demosthenes: If they have the Sun/Oracle JRE installed, yes, a double-click should run it.
10:18	Chousuke	Demosthenes: they are, in that they don't integrate with native package management
10:18	Demosthenes	ah
10:19	Chousuke	though I'm pretty sure there are tools to put the jars in an MSI and creating launcher executables
10:19	Chousuke	after all, java is pretty popular in the enterprise :P
10:19	Chousuke	+for
10:21	Demosthenes	hrm, that could be a selling point
10:21	Chousuke	I don't know much about such tools but you will probably find something if you search
10:21	mdeboard	Yeah I'm 100% certain jars in MSIs is pretty standard
10:21	Demosthenes	i've had great luck with scripting languages for my projects, but i can't expect an end user to install all the runtimes
10:22	Chousuke	Clojure's pretty decent in that you can just include clojure.jar with your project. though the executable will tend to be somewhat large. :P
10:22	jcromartie	there are good examples of native-ish Java apps out there... like Minecraft
10:23	Chousuke	also make sure you comply with all the licences when you bundle things. In Clojure's case the EPL should not be a problem (unless you modify Clojure itself)
10:24	Chousuke	most clojure-based libraries tend to use the EPL too
10:28	cemerick	Demosthenes: I've shipped the JRE wholesale to customers plenty in the past.
10:29	Demosthenes	interesting ;]
10:29	Demosthenes	that's an ability i've lacked with scripting languages
10:52	Demosthenes	i guess i oughtt o install a clojure environment and try out a few jars
11:02	jcromartie	y'all might find this useful: https://gist.github.com/1084860
11:15	cemerick	technomancy: I had to do this to get javac running after AOT: https://gist.github.com/225e07be131eb8635d84
11:15	cemerick	Does that seem idiomatic to you?
11:17	cemerick	Demosthenes: Yeah, you can put together an installer with the JRE + your app + a native launcher that works pretty well. I've used NSIS in the past for building launchers and installers, but there are comparable tools. A lot depends on your specific requirements.
11:22	chrissbx	I need to translate this Scheme code to Clojure, how would you do it?: (call-with-input-file foo read-all)
11:23	joegallo	http://launch4j.sourceforge.net/
11:23	chrissbx	i.e. give a list of all s-exprs that are in the file named in foo
11:35	joegallo	(read-string (slurp foo))?
11:35	chrissbx	I can't even find how to open a file. I've looked in the navigation of the reference (and various pages) and the "cheatsheet".
11:35	chrissbx	slurp, aha
11:36	joegallo	read-string only reads the first object though
11:36	chrissbx	That's a problem, yeah.
11:36	chrissbx	I've found with-in-str, but same problem
11:36	joegallo	then you would need to look at with-open, binding in, and read.
11:36	chrissbx	I mean, I've only found read, no read-all
11:37	joegallo	keep calling read repeatedly
11:37	chrissbx	well can wrap this
11:37	chrissbx	yep
11:41	chrissbx	How do you take optional arguments in a function?
11:41	chrissbx	other than "mis-using" &
11:42	chrissbx	something like (fn [a b &optional (c 1) (d 2)] ...)
11:42	jcromartie	chrissbx: you can use (fn ([arg list one] body one) ([arg list number two] body two)) to overload arity
11:42	chrissbx	where 1 and 2 are the default values for c and d if no argument is passed for those.
11:43	chrissbx	Yes, I've learned about that already, but then I'd have to define an external function to allow me sharing code between the cases;
11:43	chrissbx	is this how you're doing things in Clojure?
11:45	chrissbx	(Also, that means to duplicate part of the argument lists, which can be a bit tedious in some cases)
11:46	jcromartie	chrissbx: there are some other defn varieities
11:46	jcromartie	I'm not sure if there's anything as extensive as CL's
11:47	jcromartie	but you can user write your own :)
11:47	jcromartie	s/user/sure/
11:47	sexpbot	<jcromartie> but you can sure write your own :)
11:47	chrissbx	I could, but then I'd be alone.
11:47	jcromartie	or you could contribute it back
11:47	chrissbx	Where are those other defn varieties?
11:48	jcromartie	there's defnk in clojure.contrib.def
11:48	jcromartie	that's a keyword argument defn
11:49	jcromartie	what kind of argument bindings do you want?
11:49	chrissbx	Just an optional argument or two.
11:50	jcromartie	ok so as an example
11:51	jcromartie	like what would your fn be
11:51	jcromartie	(paste it somewhere)
11:51	jcromartie	sorry
11:51	jcromartie	chrissbx: something like (fn [a b &optional (c 1) (d 2)] ...)
11:52	chrissbx	ok, will do in a couple moments
12:00	chrissbx	jcromartie: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123288
12:00	chrissbx	Well, current-input-port is Scheme, dunno how to translate this.
12:00	chrissbx	Also, I guess read in Clojure doesn't take a port argument?
12:00	chrissbx	Also, I know I should use the loop macro instead of fn rec.
12:01	jcromartie	port? no... input stream yes
12:01	chrissbx	Well, that's the same thing I guess.
12:01	chrissbx	aka filehandle
12:02	jcromartie	,(doc read)
12:02	clojurebot	"([] [stream] [stream eof-error? eof-value] [stream eof-error? eof-value recursive?]); Reads the next object from stream, which must be an instance of java.io.PushbackReader or some derivee. stream defaults to the current value of in ."
12:02	chrissbx	ok
12:03	chrissbx	So I guess (aside these errors) what I wrote is how you'd do it?
12:03	jcromartie	something like that
12:03	jcromartie	well hold on
12:04	jcromartie	you might as well put the body of read-all-1 in the body of your 1-ary read-all
12:04	chrissbx	hm, that's true. Recurse to read-all.
12:06	jcromartie	here's an idea
12:06	jcromartie	(take-while identity (repeatedly read))
12:08	amalloy	jcromartie: not very good. input forms could be nil or false
12:08	jcromartie	true
12:10	amalloy	you need something more like (let [in (PushbackReader. (reader filename)), sentinel (Object.)] (take-while (complement #{sentinel} (repeatedly #(read in false sentinel)))))
12:10	amalloy	or, slurp the whole thing into a string, slap [] around it, and then a single read-string will give you a vector of the objects
12:11	technomancy	cemerick: you're leaving :java-source-path out of defproject explicitly in order to avoid pre-aot javac?
12:12	technomancy	cemerick: it looks reasonable. my understanding is that 90+% of mixed-source projects have java as the lower level (legacy stuff) with clojure on top, which is why your use case is not more streamlined. is this something you see or expect to see commonly?
12:12	technomancy	this is only the second time I've heard of it.
12:14	technomancy	cemerick: there is an open issue for this actually: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/180 fwiw
12:14	amalloy	looks like my parens in the sample code above don't balance properly. adjust as necessary
12:15	technomancy	amalloy: what, you don't have paredit in irc?
12:15	amalloy	technomancy: well, i got the right number of each kind
12:15	amalloy	but i nested them wrong
12:15	technomancy	oic
12:16	amalloy	i just installed paredit as a brain upgrade. seemed simpler than installing it for every editor i use (go ahead and ~guards me for not using erc)
12:19	mdeboard	Anyone know if there's a clojure wrapper lib for github api?
12:19	mdeboard	I asked before searching github obv
12:20	amalloy	$google clj-github
12:20	sexpbot	[alienscience/form-dot-clj - GitHub] https://github.com/alienscience/form-dot-clj
12:20	amalloy	hm
12:20	amalloy	well, yes, there is
12:20	amalloy	but it's for v2, maybe even v1
12:20	cemerick	technomancy: Yes, I'm aiming to suppress the usual pre-AOT javac. I don't need it, but it's a helpful pattern to present to an audience that is more likely to have that sort of interop requirement.
12:20	Scriptor	nothing clojure-y on here: http://develop.github.com/p/libraries.html
12:21	Scriptor	though there's the java api
12:21	technomancy	cemerick: yeah, especially if you're looking to demo hooks then that's spot-on.
12:21	cemerick	I've done it myself a couple of times in the past, but obviously didn't know the best way to do it in lein right off.
12:22	cemerick	We'll have a bit dedicated to hooke in a different chapter unrelated to lein, FWIW.
12:22	technomancy	cool
12:22	minou	hello, im new guys, when i do a load-file on slime does it takes much long or does it quit the user input on slime?
12:22	cemerick	part of the "translating specialized design patterns into regular ol' clojure code" chapter
12:23	technomancy	"in which the gang of four are overthrown"
12:23	cemerick	heh, yeah, something like that
12:23	cemerick	The chapter is currently called "Design patterns in Clojure"
12:23	cemerick	after reading it, one could reasonably play the "It's a trap!" clip. :-D
12:24	technomancy	heh.
12:24	cemerick	Sort of emblematic of the book as a whole, really.
12:25	cemerick	technomancy: anyway, thanks for the help and pointers to fill in my lein coverage. :-)
12:27	technomancy	no problem; looking forward to seeing it completed
12:28	cemerick	as am I!
12:34	Dranik	I can't wait when "Clojure Programming" is ready!..
12:40	mdeboard	Dranik: Why
12:40	mdeboard	What about it makes you anticipate it
12:41	Dranik	it is focused on practical ways and tools for everyday programming
12:42	Dranik	in contrast, all the other published clojure books are mostly about the language itself
12:42	mdeboard	I see, that makes sense.
12:42	mdeboard	And web resources for practical programming in clojure are very slim
12:43	Dranik	clojuredocs.org is the best one for me
12:47	chrissbx	Is it bad to use the slash in symbols for anything other than namespaces? (I guess so?)
12:47	amalloy	chrissbx: it's worse than bad: it's undefined behavior
12:47	chrissbx	Like, I often use names like foo/2 for a function foo that takes 2 arguments.
12:48	chrissbx	So, do I have to replace this with foo:2 or something, I guess.
12:48	amalloy	*2 sounds a little clearer to me than :2, personally
12:49	amalloy	but i'm not sure you need this as much in clojure? i mean, sure, a little hungarian can be nice if it helps you remember. but clojure has :arglists metadata, so slime will prompt you with the right number of args anyway
12:50	chrissbx	I'm mainly using it in argument names to library functions, to indicate how many arguments are expected by a higher-order function.
12:50	amalloy	ah. sensible
12:50	amalloy	&(class /)
12:50	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.core$_SLASH_
12:51	chrissbx	i.e. (defn myspecialfold [fn/3 & lists] ...)
12:51	amalloy	right
12:52	chrissbx	so I'm going to use * instead
12:57	chrissbx	How do you append symbol names? i.e. (symbol-append 'a 'b) -> ab
12:58	Cozey	Hello. Is (set (map ... )) lazy ?
12:58	amalloy	&(symbol (str 'a 'b))
12:58	sexpbot	⟹ ab
12:58	amalloy	Cozey: no. sets can't be lazy
12:59	amalloy	chrissbx: so, i guess, (def symbol-append (comp symbol str))
12:59	Cozey	it seems so, but i wanted to be sure :)
13:00	bsteuber	but cats can be lazy!
13:00	amalloy	&(doc lazy-cat)
13:00	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([& colls]); Expands to code which yields a lazy sequence of the concatenation of the supplied colls. Each coll expr is not evaluated until it is needed. (lazy-cat xs ys zs) === (concat (lazy-seq xs) (lazy-seq ys) (lazy-seq zs))"
13:01	ssideris_	hello. in clojure 1.3, the (doc) function seems to be missing... anyone know what the new way is?
13:04	joly	I'm curious about this too. When I start a new REPL, (doc map) works fine. If I switch namespaces, it doesn't work
13:05	joly	"Unable to resolve symbol: doc in this context..."
13:05	ssideris_	oh I didn't realize that it works initially
13:05	ssideris_	maybe it's a bug
13:06	ssideris_	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/issues/45
13:06	amalloy	joly: a number of namespaces are automatically use'd in the <user> namespace, as a special convenience for you
13:07	amalloy	is what i recall
13:07	amalloy	but doc is in clojure.repl, so if you want it somewhere else, you should be able to (use 'clojure.repl)
13:07	joly	amalloy: I thought core functions were imported into new namespaces, at least before 1.3
13:07	amalloy	joly: it's not in core
13:07	amalloy	is it?
13:07	amalloy	&#'doc
13:07	sexpbot	⟹ #'clojure.core/doc
13:07	amalloy	oh, i lied
13:08	ssideris_	(use 'clojure.repl) worked for me
13:08	ssideris_	thanks!
13:08	amalloy	maybe it moved to repl in 1.3 then
13:09	joly	oh, maybe that's it. (use 'clojure.repl) works for me too
13:09	joly	thanks
13:13	bendlasMble	Hey folks
13:16	bendlasMble_	I wonder: has the issue been raised, that one can't develop clojure applications under the GPL?
13:21	jweiss	is there a straightforward way of recursively traversing a clojure.zip tree? (i can visit all nodes with zip/next, but I want to have an action performed when all the nodes in a subtree have been visited, which suggests recursion to me)
13:25	hugod	Anyone have opinions on how to control which exceptions break into the debugger in ritz? https://github.com/pallet/ritz/issues/14
13:33	joegallo	bendlasMble_, what makes you think you can't?
13:41	bendlasMble	joegallo, because clojure is epl
13:42	chouser	bendlasMble: yes. The party line is that that's the GPL's fault, not EPL's.
13:42	bendlasMble	You can't rerelease epl code under gpl
13:42	joegallo	can't i write a gpl program and add an exception to my own code saying it's okay to link with clojure, for instance?
13:43	bendlasMble	Maybe. That's the reason i think i can't, anyway
13:44	bendlasMble	Hmm, interesting thought
13:44	joegallo	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL_linking_exception
13:44	scgilardi	looks relevant: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/168254/can-you-write-gpl-software-using-cpl-libraries
13:45	joegallo	the highest rated comment there seems to be about copying and pasting cpl code into your gpl program, though
13:45	joegallo	which is missing the point of the question
13:46	scgilardi	cpl faq reference may help.
13:46	scgilardi	if it weren't dead...
13:46	joegallo	heh
13:47	joegallo	http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php#USEINANOTHER
13:47	joegallo	seems to be the same stuff at a different place
13:49	joegallo	fwiw they seem to take the attitude there that using epl licensed code to write some program doesn't make that program a derivative work of the epl code, and that you can license your stuff however you'd like
13:51	bendlas`	IMHO the only real solution would be to dual licence clojure
13:52	hv	Is there an automatic way of generating clojure-api style docs for open source java libraries?
13:53	joegallo	http://tomfaulhaber.github.com/autodoc/
13:55	bendlas`	I'm thinking about this, because I'm doing a project for which I'd really like strong copyleft
13:56	bendlas`	i.e. an end user program in an educational area
13:59	pjstadig	joegallo: ?
13:59	joegallo	hmmm???
13:59	pjstadig	the epl is a weak copyleft license... changes to the original code must be released under EPL
14:00	joegallo	right, so if create a sweet new version of clojure, then that needs to be epl
14:00	pjstadig	you can combine it with whatever code you want, distribute it as a binary, and use whatever license you want
14:00	joegallo	exactly
14:00	pjstadig	you can also combine it at a source code level
14:00	pjstadig	but any modifications to the files from the original project must be released under the EPL
14:01	joegallo	right, the problem is that the gpl side isn't as friendly, and wants everything to be gpl, but if you are the copyright holder, then you can license it as gpl+exception for clojure
14:01	joegallo	so i don't see the problem
14:01	pjstadig	and of course the original code must stay under the EPL, so you can't re-license it as GPL
14:01	pjstadig	joegallo: yeah that was my thought, use gpl+exception
14:01	joegallo	now, if you are trying to take someone else's gpled program and combine it with someone else's epled program, then you are out of luck
14:02	pjstadig	but i think you can only do gpl+exception in binary form
14:03	joegallo	the other way to do this is to just do what you want and wait for the letters from lawyers :)
14:03	pjstadig	hehe
14:03	bendlas`	:)
14:03	joegallo	it's like linus and the proprietary drivers issue, if he refuses to stop you from releasing them, then does it really matter if the gpl says you are allowed to or not?
14:04	joegallo	in the end, the epl for clojure means whatever people are willing to sue over
14:04	joegallo	if the core is too busy to sue you, then i guess you escape
14:04	joegallo	but that's not really being a good citizen, and we all want to play fair
14:05	hv	joegallo: thanks. Does autodoc generate APIs for java libraries, too?
14:05	joegallo	i dunno
14:05	pjstadig	hv: doubt it
14:06	hv	joegallo: thanks. I couldn't find anything related to java in it, so I asked to be sure.
14:06	amalloy	$javadoc
14:06	hv	pjstadig: thanks.
14:06	amalloy	$javadoc Integer
14:06	sexpbot	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Integer.html
14:06	amalloy	(that is: you can use the built-in javadoc tool for that)
14:08	hv	amalloy: I want the API in a clojure-friendly format, not the ordinary javadoc.
14:08	amalloy	what is "clojure-friendly"? if you're looking up java APIs for use with clojure, you better not be allergic to javadoc
14:11	bendlas`	I think the clojure autodoc format reflects the fact, that a clojure API prett much consists of functions in namespaces
14:12	bendlas`	where as in java you have packages, classes, methods in any combination of static, non-static, public, protected
14:12	hv	I use javadoc everyday. But for the future, clojure community will definitely need to have a place for reformatted java APIs (at least the important ones) for someone that does not know the least about java the language.
14:12	bendlas`	then the occasional member
14:12	bendlas`	not to mention types
14:13	pjstadig	maybe it will change, but for now it is hard to totally avoid Java APIs in clojure, and there's no point in trying to hide that
14:13	hv	currently people are encouraged to learn some java and only then start learning clojure. That cannot go on forever.
14:14	Scriptor	they are?
14:14	Scriptor	this explains some confusion...
14:14	amalloy	i don't think that's true
14:14	Scriptor	honestly though, as long as someone reads up on java pckaging and namespaces they should be more than fine
14:15	amalloy	learn clojure, and then when you run into some bits that need java, learn that
14:16	hv	amalloy: I believe for anything serious you will run into java apis fairly quickly, so you find it difficult to hold back learning java more than one week into learning clojure.
14:17	amalloy	hv: so? that's no reason to impose a strict "first java, then clojure" order
14:17	amalloy	if you do that, you'll never know which bits of java "matter"
14:19	hv	I would say first some java intro (hopefully written by someone who knows clojure) and then you can go on and learn clojure.
14:19	Scriptor	amalloy: to be honest, enough to know from looking at some java code what's what
14:20	Scriptor	most java code has plenty in common
14:20	bendlas`	i suggest, we have that talk about host platform doc, as soon as we have every java bit in clojure.lang behind protocols
14:20	bendlas`	and an impl of those protocols, that compiles to machine code
14:21	bendlas`	:D
14:24	hv	amalloy: the bottom line is, you need to know some java, and the amount of java that you need to know should be clear for a new student.
14:25	amalloy	shrug you may well be right. i came from java, so i'm not the target audience
14:26	joegallo	start with ejbs, that's what i always say
14:30	Demosthenes	you know, i have avoided java apps for years... the only reason i'm considering clojure is it seems to be the only lisp i can package for my target audience without buying one of the commercial compilers.
14:31	chouser	Demosthenes: that is not a coincidence. That's a core Clojure goal.
14:32	Demosthenes	i'm not opposed to buying one, but as a small dev i can't outlay $1500-2500 bucks just to publish an app
14:32	joegallo	http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#InterpreterIncompat
14:32	joegallo	http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLPluginsInNF
14:32	Demosthenes	i'd drop $500 in a heartbeat
14:32	joegallo	i was trying to find those earlier, but my google-fu was weak
14:33	hv	Demosthenes: you are not alone! I think more people have avoided java apps than people who liked them.
14:33	Demosthenes	hv: well, all the "enterprise" apps i see in java (1.4!) are HORRIBLE
14:33	Demosthenes	memory leaking, cpu sucking pigs.
14:33	Demosthenes	and the native java syntax makes my skin crawl.
14:34	Demosthenes	but.... a lisp on jvm? i'm open to that
14:34	pjstadig	joegallo: the FSF has a very precise and nuanced worldview
14:34	joegallo	itym gnu/worldview, but yes :)
14:35	pjstadig	damn!
14:35	hodapp	the biggest problem with RMS is that he's ever right about anything.
14:44	paraseba	is (class (int 42)) supposed to be a Long in clj 1.3.0?
14:45	amalloy	probably
14:46	paraseba	amalloy: it's a little surprising
14:46	paraseba	I'd be ok with (class 42) being Long, but (int 42) too?
14:47	amalloy	paraseba: there's a related ticket on jira somewhere. something about aset-int breaking with the change to make ints autobox to Long
14:47	amalloy	$google clojure jira aset-int box long
14:47	sexpbot	[Overview - Clojure v1.2 API documentation] http://clojure.github.com/clojure/
14:47	paraseba	it probably brings a lot of interop problems (I know I'm having them)
14:48	Scriptor	where's the clojure 1.3.0 repo?
14:49	paraseba	amalloy: maybe this? http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-820
14:50	paraseba	hum, created yesterday, no comments yet. I'm not sure if it's a bug, or a "feature"
14:50	amalloy	Scriptor: it's the same as the 1.2 repo? github.com/clojure/clojure
14:51	amalloy	paraseba: i was thinking of something on the clojure-dev mailing list, apparently, not a jira issue
14:52	amalloy	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/d64923aaaf18a22b?pli=1 is related
14:53	amalloy	but, as usual on google groups, i can't find the one i'm thinking of
14:53	paraseba	probably this? https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure-dev/W4aFkFezW2g/discussion
14:53	amalloy	yes
14:54	paraseba	hum, still not sure if it's intended or just a bug..
14:58	raek	paraseba: IIRC, 'int' and friends only return primitives if the return value is _immediately_ consumed by a function or method that takes a primitive as an argument
14:59	raek	if the receiver argument type is Object (like for 'class') the number will be boxed
14:59	paraseba	raek: but shouldn't be boxed to Integer?
15:01	amalloy	raek: that seems like a misstatement. it returns an int in all cases
15:01	amalloy	but most consumers box that
15:02	raek	paraseba: in clojure 1.3, byte, short, int and long are boxed to Long, and float and double are boxed to Double
15:02	raek	amalloy: ah, that makes sense
15:03	raek	,(= (int 1) (long 1))
15:03	clojurebot	true
15:03	raek	,(set (int 1) (long 1))
15:03	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$set
15:03	paraseba	raek: what I find strange is the behavior of int function. Even if we always box to Longs, shouldn't int box to Integer?
15:03	amalloy	&(.equals (int 1) (long 1))
15:03	sexpbot	⟹ false
15:03	raek	,#{ (int 1) (long 1)}
15:03	clojurebot	#{1 1}
15:03	amalloy	paraseba: no!
15:03	amalloy	int is sepcifically designed to not box things
15:04	raek	here you have a set of an Int and a Long... (this is clojure 1.2)
15:04	paraseba	amalloy: hum, I see
15:04	Pupeno	Hello.
15:05	Pupeno	Is it possible to have slime working with aquamacs?
15:05	amalloy	paraseba: the point is that int doesn't do any boxing (since it's for performance), and once it comes time to box, the compiler has lost track of the information that the thing was returned from (int)
15:06	amalloy	~aquamacs
15:06	amalloy	aw
15:06	paraseba	amalloy: that makes sense... so somewhere else the output of (int 42) is getting boxed into a Long, which is now the default box
15:06	amalloy	right
15:07	paraseba	so now, we need to do (Integer. 42) to create a boxed Integer
15:07	amalloy	Pupeno: fsbot in #emacs says that "[aquamacs is] considered to be so significantly changed, buggy and "unemacs" that people in #emacs are known to be reluctant to help"
15:08	Pupeno	amalloy: I know, but it's pretty and I'm trying to show Clojure in a conference... well, I'll try to make TextMate work.
15:09	raek	Pupeno: did you try the official swank-clojure instructions?
15:09	paraseba	amalloy: do you know where I can read about this changes in 1.3.0
15:10	amalloy	paraseba: i don't know of an official document (still!). on the rare occasions that i care, i find someone else who cares and ask them
15:11	amalloy	eg dnolen or cemerick
15:11	Pupeno	raek: I tried the ones in Clojure getting started, it didn't work. I didn't investigate as it said it's not supported but might work, I wanted to gather some feedback to see if anyone was actually using it or not.
15:11	raek	paraseba: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.txt and http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Home
15:11	aaelony	hi, what is the most idiomatic way to see if a file is gzipped? is there a gzipped? function somewhere?
15:12	paraseba	raek: will try that, thanks
15:14	paraseba	raek: and what about (class (short 42)) being Short? shouldn't that be Long too? according to " in clojure 1.3, byte, short, int and long are boxed to Long"
15:14	paraseba	(int) seems to be the only one having this behavior...
15:15	paraseba	maybe short and bytes are still being boxed to their corresponding types instead of Long?
15:15	raek	hrm, that is a bit odd :)
15:15	raek	http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Enhanced+Primitive+Support
15:15	raek	this page says "all long-or-smaller integers are boxed as Long"
15:15	amalloy	"long or smaller". as if that were a necessary qualifier
15:15	raek	and "You can't use primitive coercions to force specific box types"
15:16	paraseba	yes ... it's very specific about that
15:16	raek	...but apparently you can
15:16	paraseba	so, then, maybe (int) is the only one with the intended behavior
15:17	aaelony	ok, wrote one myself...
15:22	raek	it doesn't make sense for me that this is only done for 'int'...
15:22	paraseba	raek: or you could comment the jira ticket
15:22	paraseba	clj-820
15:40	amalloy	anyone know if brian marick hangs around in here, or do i have to send him an actual email to get in touch?
15:41	raek	amalloy: dunno, but he is very active on twitter
15:41	amalloy	oh god, so he is. i had to unfollow him eventually
15:45	nybbles	fliebel: this guy probably has some ideas for that: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/02/how-one-security-firm-tracked-anonymousand-paid-a-heavy-price.ars
15:58	Cozey	Does anyone here know if there is already any clojure job market ?
16:02	amalloy	Cozey: there's some. i work at www.geni.com doing clojure with ninjudd, Raynes, and lancepantz
16:03	Cozey	I see also thortech is doing some clojure support
16:03	Cozey	so geni makes money out of dead people, eh?
16:03	amalloy	i know ztellman works with amit and some other folks at www.runa.com
16:04	amalloy	and nathanmarz is at backtype, who were recently acquired by twitter
16:06	jcromartie	amalloy: got it... so you're saying use Clojure, get acquired by Twitter
16:06	jcromartie	:P
16:07	Cozey	is clojure used mostly in data mining ?
16:08	fliebel	Cozey: Have you seen the survey by cemerick?
16:08	Cozey	oh i remember
16:08	Cozey	right
16:08	Cozey	also Incanter is a big point here
16:08	fliebel	http://cemerick.com/2011/07/11/results-of-the-2011-state-of-clojure-survey/
16:11	fliebel	But if so many people use Clojure for data mining, why aren;t there loads of similarity and clustering things, or even NLP stuff...
16:12	kumarshantanu	when i (load-file "file-name.clj"), can i let-bind local vars around it?
16:12	fliebel	kumarshantanu: huh?
16:13	kumarshantanu	so that the local binding will be available in the load-file'd code
16:13	dnolen	fliebel: not everyone using Clojure is interested in opensource.
16:13	kumarshantanu	(let [x :foo] (local-file "file.clj")) ; i want file.clj to have access to x
16:13	kumarshantanu	s/local/load/
16:13	sexpbot	<kumarshantanu> (let [x :foo] (load-file "file.clj")) ; i want file.clj to have access to x
16:14	fliebel	kumarshantanu: I think you'd have to use binding.
16:14	fliebel	dnolen: but the same could be said of web frameworks, and we have tons of these.
16:17	amalloy	kumarshantanu: no
16:18	kumarshantanu	amalloy: any alternative?
16:19	amalloy	global vars
16:19	amalloy	or, preferably, "stop trying to do things like that"
16:19	technomancy	fliebel: there's plenty of clustering libs on github
16:19	technomancy	jobbim, cascalog, conduit, work
16:20	technomancy	practically every mid-sized company using clojure has rolled their own
16:21	amalloy	technomancy: eerily reminiscent of "the lisp curse"
16:21	technomancy	NLP is another story because it's actually difficult to implement. job distribution systems are decidedly not.
16:21	Pupeno	Anybody remembers that comic about a young programming learning about closures and thinking they are the poor man's objects and then about objects and thinking they are the poor man's closures?
16:21	amalloy	Pupeno: not a comic
16:21	technomancy	amalloy: eval plus amqp. done.
16:21	Pupeno	amalloy: I remember a comic strip.
16:22	amalloy	http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg03277.html
16:22	amalloy	search for "the venerable master qc na"
16:22	amalloy	technomancy: amqp?
16:22	technomancy	amalloy: advanced message queueing protocol. rabbitmq being the popular implementation
16:23	Pupeno	Someone turned it into a comic.
16:23	amalloy	Pupeno: okay. well, feel free to find that and paste a link here
16:23	Pupeno	amalloy: I will if I find it... but it's proving hard.
16:48	fliebel	technomancy: I was talking about document clustering, like k-means and stuff.
16:50	Scriptor	fliebel: what's the difference between document clustering and regular clustering?
16:50	fliebel	Scriptor: The one is about classifying text, the other about distributing work.
16:51	Scriptor	er, I meant regular clustering as in just regular k-means, but I see document clustering means specifically clustering text
16:51	Scriptor	rather than, say, numbers
16:53	fliebel	Scriptor: Uhm, well, I just wanted to make clear I was not talking about task queues and such.
16:53	amalloy	fliebel: i forget, are you the one who wrote sexpbot's ping plugin?
16:54	fliebel	amalloy: Well, you could say so, yes. But Raynes refactored it a lot I think.
16:55	amalloy	fliebel: Raynes never refactors, he just makes code uglier. i think i refactored it a lot
16:55	Raynes	amalloy: I hate you.
16:55	fliebel	oh, right :)
16:55	amalloy	anyway, i finally got around to figuring out what broke it ages ago (not your fault, of course) and fixing it. thought you might want to know it's working again
16:57	fliebel	amalloy: Did Raynes break it? So maybe it was him after all, who did the refactoring. Anyway, glad to know it works again, I used it tons
16:57	amalloy	haha
16:58	amalloy	well, we did a global refactor on how plugins are supposed to send messages, and didn't update the ping plugin
17:00	fliebel	$huglle Raynes
17:00	fliebel	Hm, I think there was something like that...
17:01	fliebel	https://github.com/cognitivedissonance/sexpbot/blob/master/src/sexpbot/plugins/utils.clj#L184
17:02	amalloy	fliebel: the word is huggle
17:02	fliebel	good night
17:03	amalloy	night
17:08	ssideris_	hello... is there a way to create a proxy to an interface that is not known at compile time?
17:09	Demosthenes	drewr: muahahaha
17:09	ssideris_	the fact that (proxy) is macro forces me to define the interface to be proxied at compile time, right?
17:09	ssideris_	*is a
17:12	amalloy	ssideris_: you want to proxy an interface, but you don't know what it is? that sounds hard
17:13	ssideris_	I have a standard way of mapping certain keywords to certain java interfaces
17:13	ssideris_	and I'm trying to write the function/macro that will take a keyword as input (and some code) and produce a proxy for you
17:14	amalloy	ssideris_: fwiw, if you're working with interfaces, 95% of the time you want reify, not proxy
17:14	amalloy	not that this fixes your current problem
17:15	ssideris_	oh that's a good tip, let me go and look it up
17:15	ssideris_	thanks
17:15	ssideris_	the actual problem though...
17:15	whidden	given a symbol that resolves to a name space. How do I determine if it is a macro or a function?
17:16	ssideris_	it does sound a bit reflection-heavy to be honest
17:17	ssideris_	amalloy: proxy seems to have the advantage of being able to selectively define methods, you don't need all of them...
17:17	amalloy	ssideris_: "advantage"
17:18	amalloy	if you have an instance of an interface and only want to support some of its methods, you're not really conforming to the interface
17:19	ssideris_	when it comes to swing listeners, not all the methods are relevant all the time
17:19	amalloy	well, yes
17:20	ssideris_	it's hard :-)
17:21	amalloy	ssideris_: i don't think that what proxy does is what you want for swing
17:21	amalloy	iirc if you call an implemented method, it throws an exception, not silently continues
17:22	amalloy	$javadoc java.awt.WindowListener
17:22	amalloy	$javadoc javax.swing.WindowListener
17:23	amalloy	$google java windowlistener
17:23	sexpbot	[WindowListener (Java 2 Platform SE v1.4.2)] http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/awt/event/WindowListener.html
17:23	amalloy	&(doto (proxy [java.awt.event.WindowListener] [] (windowOpened [e] nil)) (.windowIconified nil))
17:23	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
17:24	ssideris_	ok, then I'll use reify to silently suppress calls to the unimplemented parts
17:24	ssideris_	thanks
17:24	amalloy	yeah, that's pretty much your only choice
17:24	amalloy	though see also WindowAdapter
17:24	ssideris_	in fact, I think that is the source of a bug in my current implementation
17:25	ssideris_	so double-thanks
17:25	ssideris_	:-)
17:25	ssideris_	the adapters are useful, but don't exist for everything in swing
17:25	amalloy	i know
17:25	ssideris_	so I'm trying to offer a solution that covers everything
17:25	amalloy	yeah, i guess it's hard to see how to productively use an adapter
17:29	ssideris_	there are at least 2 other swing DSLs out there already, right?
17:29	amalloy	dunno. not my problem
17:29	amalloy	all i know about is seesaw
17:31	aaelony	has anyone used to-time-zone from joda time? The doc says it takes a date and a time, but i get a string exception
17:31	aaelony	jtime
17:31	aaelony	#<DateTime 2011-07-07T13:59:59.979Z>
17:31	aaelony	(to-time-zone jtime "America/Los_Angeles")
17:31	aaelony	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to org.joda.time.DateTimeZone (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:31	aaelony	any ideas?
17:33	aaelony	nevermind... it seems it needs to be a org.joda.time.tz.FixedDateTimeZone
17:33	aaelony	for the offset
17:34	ssideris_	amalloy: so why do you dislike swing so much?
17:34	amalloy	ssideris_: that anyone would write WindowAdapter and not realize there's a problem saddens me
17:35	ssideris_	:-)
17:35	ssideris_	ok point taken
17:35	amalloy	it's an application of interfaces to a concept that doesn't really match
17:36	amalloy	if i were rewriting it today, i'd probable start with something closer to: public enum WindowEvent { ICONIFIED, ...}; public interface WindowListener { public void handle(WindowEvent e); };
17:37	coopernurse	amalloy: just tried out your fork of clj-doc-test - do you know if it has issues with functions in namespaces?
17:37	amalloy	coopernurse: uhhhh, i think i forked clj-doc-test and then didn't ever actually do anything to it. i have no knowledge about it, really
17:38	coopernurse	amalloy: ah, ok. thanks.
17:38	coopernurse	for pure functions it seems like a nice way to do tests
17:38	coopernurse	but it doesn't seem like it has caught on with the clojure community
17:39	amalloy	yeah, i had some grand plans for it, but i don't remember what they were and i think i decided they weren't a good idea
17:39	amalloy	it looks like my only commit was to make it cake/lein-friendly
17:46	coopernurse	amalloy: gotcha
17:57	dabd	I was looking for a way to write loops where you exit when a condition is met which is not very easy to do in a functional way. However I found trampolines very useful to implement this. Is this a common use case? I used it like this example http://pastebin.com/U5iecrhu
17:58	amalloy	dabd: ew
17:59	amalloy	drop the trampoline, and replace #(max-4-matches ...) with (recur ...)
17:59	dnolen	dabd: I don't see what stops you from just using recur, at least in this case.
18:00	sritchie	dabd: https://gist.github.com/1085641
18:00	sritchie	haven't debugged that yet, but that's meant to be a straightforward conversion of what you'd had
18:01	amalloy	though tbh the whole function can easily be written as (count (take 4 (filter #{\x \o} s)))
18:01	dabd	sritchie: any advantages of using your version vs trampolines?
18:01	dnolen	dabd: trampolines are pretty slow, and just unidiomatic for what you're doing.
18:02	sritchie	you don't need mutual recursion between two functions, here, just a single recursion
18:02	dabd	ok
18:03	amalloy	someone tell me if i'm wrong, but i think any trampoline that doesn't involve mutual recursion can be trivially transformed into a loop/recur
18:03	dnolen	amalloy: trampoline is for mutual recursion.
18:04	dabd	amalloy: let me test your version
18:04	sritchie	dabd: https://gist.github.com/1085641
18:04	sritchie	that's a little cleaner
18:04	sritchie	(than the first one I posted, imo)
18:05	amalloy	dnolen: i know
18:05	dnolen	amalloy: i know you know :) came out the wrong way.
18:05	dnolen	dabd: amalloy solution is the best way to do what you want and quite concise.
18:06	sritchie	amalloy: haha, didn't see that
18:06	dekuderp	I'm having a bit of trouble; the compiler is telling me I'm not recurring from a proper tail position
18:06	dekuderp	https://gist.github.com/1085656
18:07	dekuderp	specifically, I get: Can only recur from tail position (map_maker.clj:13)
18:07	amalloy	dekuderp: move the second recur into the if
18:07	dabd	unfortunately none of the versions work as I intend: I want to check how many consecutive \x or \o chars are in the string stopping as soon as I find 4 but anytime I find a different char I reset the counter
18:07	amalloy	actually, look up how if works
18:07	sritchie	I think you're also forgetting parens around your different function versions
18:07	sritchie	so, wrap [xmax ymax] (recur xmax ymax xmax ymax {}) in parens, as well as the next argvec-body pair
18:08	dekuderp	amalloy: thanks
18:08	dekuderp	sritchie: so every [arg] (function body) should be ([arg] (function body))?
18:08	sritchie	yeah
18:10	dekuderp	okay here is the new error I am getting: Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 2 args, got: 5 (map_maker.clj:13)
18:10	dabd	ofc it is easy to correct amalloy's version to have this behavior thanks guys
18:10	dekuderp	https://gist.github.com/1085665
18:10	dabd	sorry I meant sritchie's version
18:11	dekuderp	so why can't it tell that there is a 5-arg version? I thought I've written clojure code that works like this, but perhaps I'm misremembering
18:12	sritchie	I usually write (generate-map xmax ymax xmax ymax {})) in this case -- not sure why recur doesn't jump between the different arg versions, though
18:12	amalloy	dekuderp: recur doesn't work that way. you can only recur to the top of the current body
18:12	amalloy	sritchie: because recur is a GOTO, and each function body is a method
18:12	sritchie	got it
18:13	dekuderp	amalloy: thanks!
18:17	jonabbey	question: did anyone come up with any better pattern for closing streams in clojure than was discussed in http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/b9238d1c26997eea/c85b2e289ae92c88?lnk=gst&q=lazy+stream&fwc=1 ?
18:18	jonabbey	i.e, there remain no deterministic destructors in clojure, so you have to do all management of stream lifespan with functional resource management blocks?
18:19	jonabbey	i'm trying to do a lazy seq on a stream reader, and i've got it working, but it doesn't close the stream unless the lazy seq is evaluated to the end
18:21	dekuderp	in this function: https://gist.github.com/1085679 why doesn't (if (and (zero? ycur) (zero? xcur)) worldmap) cause the generate-map function to return the worldmap data structure?
18:22	dekuderp	after setting up a few printouts I figured out that it is getting hit, but that the function isn't returning, instead getting stuck in an infinite loop
18:24	jonabbey	/list-usrs
18:24	jonabbey	er
18:27	amalloy	dekuderp: again, look up how if works
18:27	amalloy	&((fn [] (if true 1) (if false 2) 3))
18:27	sexpbot	⟹ 3
18:30	dekuderp	so how do I prevent the continued evaluation? am I supposed to be using cond instead?
18:31	dekuderp	this http://clojure.org/special_forms#if isn't really helping me understand my mistake, but I'm looking for other stuff too
18:31	amalloy	yes, but you can do it with if
18:31	amalloy	&((fn [] (if true 1 (if false 2 3)))
18:31	sexpbot	⟹ 1 ; Adjusted to ((fn [] (if true 1 (if false 2 3))))
18:31	amalloy	sexpbot: smartass
18:32	amalloy	dekuderp: the general thrust is, every expression returns something, always
18:32	amalloy	"early" returns are silently ignored by the special form (do expr1 expr2), which defn includes implicitly
18:33	dekuderp	so the only way to make an if statement have the power to return a value for the parent function is to chain the if's together?
18:33	dekuderp	ok, I think I sorta get it now
18:33	amalloy	yes, though you should try to stop thinking about early returns
18:33	amalloy	those are "statements": "return this value now"
18:34	amalloy	clojure just has expressions, describing what the result of an expression is, not how to get it
18:35	Abezethibou	Hello all.. After a same studing aboud Common lisp (aproximately a year)
18:36	Abezethibou	I start to study clojure
18:36	dnolen	jonabbey: lazy-seqs and resources don't really play together well, open design problem.
18:36	Abezethibou	I am reading practical clojure
18:36	dekuderp	amalloy: thank you very much for helping me understand htat
18:36	dekuderp	that*
18:36	Abezethibou	and little bit joy of clojure
18:37	Abezethibou	Does anyone have any suggestion about a complate book
18:38	kylpo	technomancy: I've been thinking about learning lisp before clojure. Would you recommend I stick with that plan? Or just go right for clojure. Currently my goal is for learning/practice, I don't really have a project in mind.
18:38	technomancy	kylpo: you mean common lisp?
18:39	kylpo	technomancy: yes. The book I'm using is Land of Lisp: http://www.amazon.com/Land-Lisp-Learn-Program-Game/dp/1593272812
18:39	bsteuber	kylpo: just learn clojure ^^
18:40	technomancy	kylpo: I don't think there's any value in learning CL at all
18:40	kylpo	technomancy: K, thanks. Except for understanding elisp, right?
18:41	technomancy	that's true; CL has a lot of overlap with elisp
18:41	technomancy	and it has a lot more literature
18:41	kylpo	technomancy: do you have an elisp book you like?
18:41	technomancy	kylpo: no, not really
18:41	kylpo	technomancy: k
18:42	technomancy	I guess I learned most of my elisp from Practical CL
18:42	kylpo	technomancy: a clojure book you like?
18:42	technomancy	only got about halfway through the book though
18:42	technomancy	kylpo: I've read Programming Clojure and the Joy of Clojure. good and great respectively
18:42	technomancy	PC if you just want the basics quickly and JoC for a more thorough grounding
18:43	kylpo	technomancy: K, thanks. I'm thinking I'll check out your peepcast, too. Making games are good ways for me to practice.
18:43	technomancy	yeah, games are great
19:07	dekuderp	so apparently this function is not correctly generating a data structure I want: https://gist.github.com/1085752
19:07	dekuderp	I think this command shows that my logic is sound:
19:07	dekuderp	,(if (nil? ((keyword (str 1)) {})) (assoc {} (keyword (str 1)) {}))
19:07	clojurebot	{:1 {}}
19:08	dekuderp	but for some reason the function only returns nil instead of the real structure I want
19:11	amalloy	i'm not sure exactly what your function is trying to do, but it looks like it's in need of update-in and fnil
19:13	amalloy	(dekuderp: that last directed at you)
19:15	amalloy	dekuderp: note also that ##(assoc nil :x :y) works just fine with nil
19:15	lazybot	⟹ {:x :y}
19:21	ssideris_	what's a concise way to go from [[1 10] [2 20]] -> [[1 2] [10 20]] ?
19:21	ssideris_	for the general case
19:24	ssideris_	duh, I suppose [(map first v) (map second v)]
19:24	ssideris_	where v is the structure
19:25	ssideris_	the vector I mean
19:26	amalloy	&(apply map vector [[1 10] [2 20]])
19:26	lazybot	⟹ ([1 2] [10 20])
19:27	amalloy	ssideris_: more general, working for NxM matrices
19:28	ssideris_	wow nice
19:28	ssideris_	thanks
19:29	dekuderp	um, I have been looking at the documentation for update-in, and it seems really useful, but I don't know how to use it
19:29	dekuderp	the only example I got to work in my repl is ##(update-in {} [(keyword (str 1)) (keyword (str 2))] {})
19:29	lazybot	⟹ {:1 {:2 nil}}
19:29	amalloy	dekuderp: well, explain to me what your function is actually doing
19:30	amalloy	the mess of repeated nested assocs is not easy to follow
19:31	dekuderp	I want to create a 2d matrix to store other maps in
19:31	amalloy	so maybe just assoc-in?
19:31	amalloy	&(assoc-in nil [:1 :2] "data")
19:31	lazybot	⟹ {:1 {:2 "data"}}
19:32	dekuderp	amalloy: that is definitely the function I was looking for
19:32	dekuderp	and I would use update-in for updating the 2d array, right?
19:33	amalloy	for changing one entry in it
19:33	dekuderp	okay, well those functions certainly make life easier
19:33	dekuderp	thanks!
19:34	amalloy	&(let [world (-> nil (assoc-in [:1 :2] "data") (assoc-in [:3 :5] 9))] (update-in world [:3 :5] dec))
19:34	lazybot	⟹ {:3 {:5 8}, :1 {:2 "data"}}
19:34	amalloy	i still don't understand at all why you want to use keywords as keys instead of numbers
19:35	amalloy	dekuderp: ^ all that stuff
19:37	dekuderp	amlloy: what do you mean? I am using numbers
19:37	dekuderp	I am using ##(keyword (str 1)) and such for every num
19:37	lazybot	⟹ :1
19:38	dekuderp	at least that's how I figured out how to turn numbers into keys
19:41	dekuderp	I'm guessing that I'm doing it wrong?
19:41	amalloy	stop making numbers keys! we had this discussion the other day, didn't we? you can just use the actual integer 1 as a key
19:42	amalloy	&{1 'test, 10 'sample}
19:42	lazybot	⟹ {1 test, 10 sample}
19:42	dekuderp	oh, now I get it
19:42	amalloy	or use a vector of vectors, since vectors are indexed by index anyway
19:43	dekuderp	do you think I should be using vectors?
19:43	dekuderp	I'm not very sure of the trade off in my case, so my choice was pretty arbitrary
19:43	amalloy	&(let [world (vec (repeat 4 (vec (repeat 4 nil))))] (assoc-in world [3 1] 'test))
19:43	lazybot	⟹ [[nil nil nil nil] [nil nil nil nil] [nil nil nil nil] [nil test nil nil]]
19:45	amalloy	if the world is large and mostly empty, a map is surely better. otherwise, it probably depends but doesn't matter much
19:46	dekuderp	okay, I'll try it with vectors since I am planning on storing data at every entry
20:20	mdeboard	,(min-key 7 8 9(
20:20	clojurebot	EOF while reading
20:20	mdeboard	,(min-key (7 8))
20:20	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
20:20	mdeboard	Can someone clue me in on what min-key is for :\|
20:21	amalloy	&(min-key :size {:size 1 :name "test"} {:data 4 :size 10})
20:21	lazybot	⇒ {:size 1, :name "test"}
20:21	amalloy	&(min-key - 1 2 3)
20:21	lazybot	⇒ 3
20:22	amalloy	mdeboard: ^
20:29	mdeboard	&(min-key - 3 2 1)
20:29	lazybot	⇒ 3
20:29	mdeboard	what.
20:30	mdeboard	&(min-key + 1 2 3)
20:30	lazybot	⇒ 1
20:31	amalloy	mdeboard: it calls - on each element before comparing
20:31	amalloy	and -3 is smaller than -1
20:31	mdeboard	Oh.
20:31	mdeboard	&(min-key (partial (< 3)) 1 2 3)
20:31	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$partial
20:32	mdeboard	&(min-key (> 3 %) 1 2 3)
20:32	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: % in this context
20:32	dnolen	&(min-key (partial < 3) 1 2 3)
20:32	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
20:32	amalloy	mdeboard: unlikely to work anyway. > returns a boolean
20:33	dnolen	&(min-key (partial min 3) 1 2 3)
20:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
20:34	mdeboard	I see
20:38	dekuderp	is there an easy way to generate a random # between 0 and 1 in clojure?
20:39	amalloy	&(rand)
20:39	lazybot	⇒ 0.5675409978355913
20:39	dnolen	,(rand-int 2)
20:39	clojurebot	0
20:40	dnolen	,(take 10 (repeatedly #(rand-int 2)))
20:40	clojurebot	(0 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0)
20:40	dnolen	,(take 10 (repeatedly rand))
20:40	clojurebot	(0.8182436567649329 0.9637135524821122 0.9122072063831675 0.2888228218745055 0.3761627320246498 0.2602531326683677 0.34970107144974993 0.8873792800568543 0.4710056658729913 0.7726407255548855)
20:42	mdeboard	Now, can someone give me a very very simple example of apply's usage? :\
20:43	dekuderp	thanks!
20:43	mdeboard	The actual operation indicated by the ->> macro would seem like it woul be described with "apply"
20:43	technomancy	mdeboard: (apply * [1 2 3])
20:43	technomancy	becomes (* 1 2 3)
20:43	amalloy	dnolen: repeatedly takes an optional how-many arg these days
20:44	mdeboard	technomancy: So .. it's reduce?
20:44	amalloy	&((juxt apply reduce) (partial list '*) [1 2 3])
20:44	lazybot	⇒ [(* 1 2 3) (* (* 1 2) 3)]
20:44	amalloy	mdeboard: the difference is that
20:44	technomancy	mdeboard: (reduce * [1 2 3]) results in two calls to *
20:44	technomancy	mdeboard: apply is a single call
20:45	mdeboard	ah
20:45	mdeboard	interestink
20:55	technomancy	amalloy: oh dang; I didn't catch what was going on there
20:55	technomancy	it's like your own private macroexpand-like facility
20:55	amalloy	technomancy: more like a trace
21:21	mdeboard_	&(apply + [1 2 3])
21:21	lazybot	⇒ 6
21:23	mdeboard_	&(apply min-key 5 [1 2 3])
21:23	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
21:27	mdeboard_	&(min-key min [
21:27	lazybot	⇒ [] ; Adjusted to (min-key min [])
21:27	brehaut	wait; lazybot? when did that happen
21:28	mdeboard_	&(min-key min [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9])
21:28	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
21:28	mdeboard_	&(min 1,2,3)
21:28	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:29	mdeboard_	Sorry I'm on my phone at Harry potter. This is the only repl I have :(
21:29	brehaut	mdeboard: damning review of a the movie there
21:30	amalloy	brehaut: earlier this afternoon
21:30	amalloy	mdeboard_: you can /msg lazybot &(min 1 2 3)
21:31	mdeboard_	Ya doing that now amalloy
21:31	mdeboard_	brehaut: We're here early.
21:37	babilen	mdeboard_: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.sattvik.clojure_repl (fwiw) -- but watch the movie, and don't play with the phone ;)
21:37	mdeboard_	I'm on iPhone :(
21:55	ihodes	cemerick: hey chas
22:01	cemerick	hey :-)
22:21	gfrlog`	clojurebot: lazybot?
22:23	amalloy	clojurebot: lazybot is sexpbot's new name. Same bot, same features, less nsfw-looking name!
22:23	amalloy	clojurebot: ping?
22:24	amalloy	,1
22:24	gfrlog`	clojurebot was only ever interested in sexpbot
22:24	amalloy	hiredman: clojurebot seems to be dead
22:24	ihodes	cemerick: haha i didn't mean pick me for any particular reason, just a student who's using Clojure, though not in the classroom
22:25	cemerick	ihodes: Yeah, I had no idea you were a student, actually. :-)
22:38	ihodes	cemerick: for one more year, at least. i wish the CS dpt used Clojure. i'm a math major anyway, though. it feels more like programming anyway.
22:39	cemerick	ihodes: Check your PMs :-)
22:46	gfrlog`	&(nth (sorted-set 1 2 3) 1)
22:46	lazybot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentTreeSet
22:46	gfrlog`	:(
22:51	amalloy	gfrlog`: the sorted-set impl couldn't do that any faster than ##(nth (seq (sorted-set 1 2 3)) 1) anyway
22:51	lazybot	⇒ 2
22:52	amalloy	but i bet there's a measure for a finger tree that combines sorting with random access
22:56	gfrlog`	amalloy: a tree set can't nth? :/
22:56	gfrlog`	that's....unnecessary
22:57	amalloy	no, why would it bother?
22:57	gfrlog`	because it's so close to being able to?
22:58	amalloy	no it isn't
22:58	gfrlog`	then I don't know what a tree set is
22:59	amalloy	it would have to track, at each node, how many things are in the left and the right branch
22:59	gfrlog`	amalloy: that's what I meant by so close
22:59	gfrlog`	all it would have to do is track, at each node, how many things are in the left and the right branch
22:59	amalloy	gfrlog`: i imagine clojure's persistent tree set is pretty close to the mutable tree set. for a mutable set it's a bigger change
23:00	amalloy	but seriously, this is what finger trees are for. go try them out
23:00	gfrlog`	I know :(
23:00	Scriptor	amalloy: like, teh #{} kind of set?
23:00	Scriptor	*the
23:01	gfrlog`	Scriptor: ##(sorted-set 1 3 2)
23:01	lazybot	⇒ #{1 2 3}
23:01	amalloy	Scriptor: uh, what is this in reference to?
23:01	Scriptor	amalloy: <amalloy> gfrlog`: i imagine clojure's persistent tree set is pretty close to the mutable tree set. for a mutable set it's a bigger change
23:01	amalloy	Scriptor: #{} is a hash set (well, probably array set)
23:02	amalloy	sorted-set is a tree set
23:02	Scriptor	ah, interesting
23:02	amalloy	gfrlog`: a mutable tree set would have to percolate the changes back up to the root at every insertion
23:02	amalloy	persistent tree sets have to do that anyway
23:03	gfrlog`	amalloy: so how would clojure's implementation be "pretty close" to the mutable tree set?
23:03	amalloy	gfrlog`: i dunno man
23:03	gfrlog`	it seems like an all or nothing attribute to me
23:06	amalloy	i mean the code to implement it seems like it would be similar, not that they would behave similarly
23:06	amalloy	and who knows, maybe i'm wrong. feel free to read more thoroughly into the source; i've only skimmed
23:08	amalloy	cuddle-trees
23:09	gfrlog`	rooted acyclic graphs with ordered children
23:10	gfrlog`	(ragwoc?)
23:10	gfrlog`	I guess that's a description of trees generally, not finger-trees specifically :/
23:14	amalloy	trees don't neessarily have ordered children
23:14	gfrlog`	finger-trees don't?
23:15	gfrlog`	$google tree data structure
23:15	lazybot	[Tree (data structure) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_(data_structure)
23:19	amalloy	gfrlog`: they do. but you said it was a description of trees generally, so i interjected
23:19	gfrlog`	:)
23:19	gfrlog`	yeah I admit it was ambiguous
23:20	gfrlog`	although, if it can be said that a tree has two separate pertitent definitions -- a data structure, and a type of graph -- then one could argue that the first should be understood by the context
23:20	gfrlog`	(by "a type of graph" I mean specifically connected acyclic graphs)
23:24	amalloy	gfrlog`: {:a nil :b {:c 2}} is a "tree data structure". what order are the children a and b in?
23:25	gfrlog`	I prefer to call it a map :P
23:26	gfrlog`	okay you win this round
23:27	amalloy	(inc pedantry)
23:27	lazybot	⟹ 1
23:28	gfrlog`	(inc (inc pedantry))
23:28	lazybot	⟹ 1
23:28	gfrlog`	(inc )
23:28	lazybot	⟹ 1