#clojure – 2011-07-12

2011-07-12

00:13	gstamp	A little gotcha... ns seems to point to clojure.core when you run as a gen-class compiled classfile.
00:45	hiredman	gstamp: why do you think it would be set to something else?
00:48	hiredman	when you compile a file a dynamic binding is pushed for ns, and effectively is set! to a given namespace by ns or in-ns
00:48	hiredman	the set! value is popped off when compilation is complete
00:49	hiredman	when you are running anywhere but in a repl ns is almost always clojure.core
02:32	ihodes	coolest piece of software i've recently used: VMWare Fusion.
03:49	chitsubr	Anyone know a way to get tab completion of clojure keywords in emacs?
03:56	kumarshantanu	chitsubr: autocomplete.el ?
03:56	kumarshantanu	chitsubr: but it works off a TAG file AFAICT
03:57	chitsubr	kumarshantanu: ah right. Thanks, I'll look around for tag files for clojure.
04:10	kumarshantanu	chitsubr: apparently the latest autocomplete.el already has the clojure.core tags
04:14	chitsubr	kumarshantanu: I will update my autocomplete.el then, thx
05:02	shtutgart	Is it correct to def things inside a defn?
05:03	shtutgart	e.g. (defn foo [x] (def bar x))
05:03	lnostdal-laptop	that should be fine
05:05	shtutgart	it works, but is it idiomatic?
05:06	lnostdal-laptop	hard to tell with no context
05:07	Chousuke	that's usually completely the wrong thing to do :/
05:08	shtutgart	It's for building gui. Function creates form, and inner defs are widgets.
05:08	Chousuke	all defs are top level, and most of the time doing them from a function makes no sense (since you're not supposed to def the same var multiple times)
05:08	Chousuke	use let for local variables
05:10	Chousuke	the only situation where defs from a function make sense is an "init" function that sets up your program/library and gets called exactly once (even then it's somewhat icky)
05:10	lnostdal-laptop	i guess you want them to stick around after the function ends then .. perhaps using a structure in a variable (atom/ref) defined only once would work too
05:10	Chousuke	avoid that too
05:10	lnostdal-laptop	..then setting that ref/atom
05:11	Chousuke	just return whatever you want to keep from the function
05:11	lnostdal-laptop	yes, return and set
05:12	shtutgart	I was using let, but I need access to widgets from other functions, with let they anyway have to be defined in the defn, so I'll be ended up with ALL my functions and widgets defined in the one let form, which is hard to read and understand
05:12	Chousuke	in general, the number of functions not dealing with atoms or refs should be significantly higher than the number of functions that do have state.
05:13	shtutgart	Chousuke: return all widgets from the function?
05:13	Chousuke	shtutgart: yes. in a container, if you have to
05:14	Chousuke	if you need access to other widgets, have the other functions return them
05:14	Chousuke	then collect it all together in one function
05:14	Chousuke	using modifiable globals is brittle and unidiomatic. :/
05:15	shtutgart	But then I will have all my namespaces with all my definitions wrapped in one bug and messy let form
05:15	Chousuke	why?
05:15	clojurebot	why not?
05:15	Chousuke	clojurebot: shut up
05:15	Chousuke	:P
05:15	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
05:16	shtutgart	because I need access to widgets in other functions
05:16	lnostdal-laptop	you could use a map structure bound to a let
05:16	lnostdal-laptop	in a let*
05:16	Chousuke	shtutgart: I don't understand what the problem is
05:16	shtutgart	lnostdal-laptop: map with widgets?
05:16	lnostdal-laptop	sure .. i guess they have IDs
05:17	lnostdal-laptop	id -> widget-instance .. and i like having stuff like this in a top-level global so my top-level function can return to the repl and i can inspect things freely .. there's no problem with this
05:17	shtutgart	but... we already have namespaces for this purpose, why should I create another one map?
05:18	shtutgart	Chousuke: ok. let me paste an example
05:18	Chousuke	in that case you can do something like... (defn make-widget ....) (defn make-all-widgets ...) (def widgets (make-all-widgets))
05:25	shtutgart	something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/123219
05:26	shtutgart	also note that I need forward declaration to define widgets in right order
05:28	lnostdal-laptop	i really don't understand why you do not use a map for this
05:28	Chousuke	yeah, a map would be fine
05:28	shtutgart	I can't see why to wrap widgets in another map. We already have namespaces! What's the profit of holding widgets in the map?
05:28	Chousuke	the profit is that you can pass them around easily
05:29	shtutgart	One difference is tha i have to type (:widget map) instead of just widget
05:29	Chousuke	no globals
05:29	Chousuke	and you can destructure
05:29	lnostdal-laptop	it's easier to pass around?
05:29	Chousuke	so (let [{:keys [widget names here]} widgets] ...)
05:30	shtutgart	If I use var-per-widget approach, I don't need destructing at all.
05:30	Chousuke	yes but then you have loads of vars that you can never garbage-collects :/
05:30	Chousuke	-s
05:31	shtutgart	Hm, good point
05:32	lnostdal-laptop	well, it's not like the widgets in the map disappear as if by magic either
05:33	lnostdal-laptop	(..and clojure has no support for weak hash-tables; if that'd be interesting in this context..)
05:34	Chousuke	lnostdal-laptop: but you can just lose your reference to the map
05:34	Chousuke	I'm not saying def it into a var
05:35	lnostdal-laptop	sure, but that'd happen if he def'ed over his many vars also; the old bindings would be GCed
05:35	lnostdal-laptop	..not sure i'm using the proper terms her, but anyway
05:36	Chousuke	yeah but that's ugly
05:36	Chousuke	and not guaranteed to work anyway I think, at least in 1.3
05:36	lnostdal-laptop	it should work
05:36	lnostdal-laptop	but this is beside the original point anyway
05:36	Chousuke	perhaps only for dynamic vars
05:37	lnostdal-laptop	..it'd be a bug in clojure if it didn't work, and even if it did work it isn't interesting..
05:37	Chousuke	no, it's not a bug. The behaviour will change in 1.3
05:37	Chousuke	vars will be more like constants
05:37	Chousuke	so you can't just go ahead and def them again
05:37	lnostdal-laptop	i'm jusing 1.3 .. i know
05:37	lnostdal-laptop	using*
05:38	lnostdal-laptop	of course you can def them again
05:39	lnostdal-laptop	they are not constant; they are instead not dynamic by default
05:39	lnostdal-laptop	..IIRC
05:39	lnostdal-laptop	i can redefine plan unearmuffed vars for sure at least
05:39	lnostdal-laptop	plain*
05:39	lnostdal-laptop	but forget this ....sheesh... it's not interesting in this context anyway .. :}
05:41	shtutgart	hm, then, what can you advice me about forward declaration? Should I write macro that first lets all widgets to nil? And what about bindings? Should I write another macro and renounce the use of bindings?
05:42	Chousuke	you don't need a macro
05:42	Chousuke	(declare whatever you want)
05:42	Chousuke	:P
05:43	Chousuke	I'm still not sure that it's a good idea to def widgets globally but whatever :)
05:43	shtutgart	Chousuke: I mean macro that will be automatically let all widgets to nil first
05:43	lnostdal-laptop	i wouldn't do that at all, shtutgart .. i'd use a single top-level dynamic ref-variable bound to a map.. whenever my top-level function returns i'd ref-set it
05:43	Chousuke	shtutgart: what for?
05:43	lnostdal-laptop	..and i'd using the binding form for the rest of the call tree
05:44	Chousuke	shtutgart: if you let them to nil you could just as well let them be the actual widget objects
05:45	Chousuke	since let bindings are lexical and constant, you can only "change" the binding by shadowing it
05:46	shtutgart	lnostdal-laptop: ok, I'll try it
05:47	shtutgart	Chousuke: I want to define widgets in right order (think of html) and that requires some forward declaration, that's why i'm talking about letting to nil
05:54	lnostdal-laptop	shtutgart, http://paste.lisp.org/display/123220 .. something like this i think .. typed in a hurry tho
05:55	lnostdal-laptop	..i wonder if clj has something like prog1
05:58	shtutgart	lnostdal-laptop: thank you, i'll look into it
05:59	bsteuber	shtutgart: I assume you use a java gui framework
06:00	bsteuber	so why not just use mutation to cennect the widgets?
06:00	bsteuber	s/cenn/conn
06:00	sexpbot	<bsteuber> so why not just use mutation to connect the widgets?
06:00	shtutgart	bsteuber: it can't be done; constructors require parent widget
06:01	bsteuber	so let the parent first
06:02	bsteuber	or do you want to build all in one nice expression?
06:02	bsteuber	which framework is it?
06:02	shtutgart	yep
06:02	shtutgart	swt
06:03	bsteuber	oh didn't know
06:04	bsteuber	seems like you need a macro for that, with all the drawbacks macros have..
06:26	shtutgart	bsteuber: I already have macros here and there, so another one doesn't make much difference :)
06:29	bsteuber	lol
06:31	bsteuber	another idea would be to not return swt objects immediately
06:31	bsteuber	but rather have your widget functions build clojure data structures
06:31	bsteuber	that get "compiled" to swt all at once
06:32	bsteuber	maybe that'd be cleaner than macro hell
06:37	shtutgart	bsteuber: hm, then user's action functions can also operate on clojure data structures, and framework will then generate setters calls for changed values (I guess I read about such approach somewhere on the clojrue google group)
06:39	bsteuber	sth. like that
06:39	bsteuber	maybe I should've done the same for my swing wrapper ^^
06:40	bsteuber	well I don't need to set parents most of the time, so I don't have your problem
06:40	bsteuber	but a lot of other ones :)
06:43	shtutgart	no, Im talking not about parent, but about any changeable values. Like, your action-listener should be widgets-map -> widgets-map function, where widgets are immutable clojure records, and framework should take the diff of the input and output and generate setters for changed fields
06:43	shtutgart	then holding widgets in a map makes complete sense, now I see
06:43	bsteuber	yes sounds elegant
06:44	bsteuber	but you'll probably get other problems ^^
06:45	shtutgart	definitely! :)
06:45	bsteuber	I sometimes dream of starting a pure clojure gui framework
06:46	bsteuber	that's lying on top of a pure clojure graphics/layouting framework
06:46	bsteuber	but...
06:47	shtutgart	btw, have you seen envydon?
06:49	bsteuber	no, what's that?
06:51	shtutgart	hm, I've lost the link, let me google that...
06:52	gfrlog	good morning europe
06:57	shtutgart	ah, it calss indyvon: https://bitbucket.org/kryshen/indyvon
06:57	shtutgart	*it's called
07:03	bsteuber	sounds interesting
07:34	jcromartie	indyvon looks like "immediate mode" giu
07:34	jcromartie	gui
08:03	clgv	what's the easiest way to find a given item in a nest clojure data structure consisting of hashmaps and vectors?
08:03	clgv	s/nest/nested/
08:03	sexpbot	<clgv> what's the easiest way to find a given item in a nested clojure data structure consisting of hashmaps and vectors?
08:08	bsteuber	clgv: maybe manually flatten it first
08:08	clgv	bsteuber: hm I guess I might not have to search for the items - seems I had some update-compilation problem
08:09	clgv	I should do "lein clean" more often
08:22	bsteuber	clgv: just for the fun of it: https://gist.github.com/1077871
08:23	clgv	bsteuber: the problem didnt vanish - so I'll give that one a try.
08:24	bsteuber	bot sure if you just want to check for existence or return the value or whatever
08:24	bsteuber	not :)
08:25	clgv	I have data I want to serialize and get a NotSerializableException - but in advance I have code that converts the deftypes to standard clojure data - seems somehow one or more objects of the deftype manage to hide somewhere they shouldnt
08:25	bsteuber	ah
08:26	clgv	I dont find them manually
08:26	bsteuber	so then instead of true you'll want to return x
08:27	clgv	true. will be sufficient for the first check
08:28	clgv	(rec-find #(instance? bla.blubb.Mytype %) data-map) returns nil. so where are they hiding? :/
08:38	clgv	humm serializing lazy sequences could be an issue... :/
08:38	Hodapp	yes.
08:38	clgv	really stupid mistake^^
08:38	Hodapp	psssh, it happens
08:38	clgv	guess I have to write that "eager" "map!" command now
08:39	Hodapp	like when I forget I'm on a remote server and I do a DHCP release
08:39	clgv	I needed it at least 5 times now, thats big enough as threshold ;)
08:39	clgv	Hodapp: oh thats epic ;)
08:39	bsteuber	wyh exactly do you need to be eager?
08:39	bsteuber	some external resources involved?
08:40	clgv	bsteuber: so that the conversion takes place bevor the serialization - otherwise the lazyseq object is serialized with the uncoverted data it seems
08:42	bsteuber	one dorun not enough?
08:42	bsteuber	erm doall
08:42	clgv	yes, I put a doall there now
08:42	bsteuber	well that's probably not recursive
08:43	Cozey	What's a better keyword counterpart for a camelCasedName? :camelcasedname or :camel-cased-name
08:43	digash	blist
08:43	clgv	but (doall (map ...)) is really lame. I just could write a different map command that just evaluates everything ;)
08:44	babilen	Cozey: I would say :camel-cased-name -- but listen to the gurus here
08:44	babilen	(i.e. not me)
08:44	Cozey	ok:-)
08:44	Cozey	it seems to be more readable
08:45	Cozey	on the other hand leaving dashes out is not much less readable, and is less typing
08:45	shtutgart`	vote for :camel-cased-name
08:45	babilen	typing? use a proper editor that allows completion :)
08:49	Cozey	i use one
08:53	digash	blist
09:17	clgv	my eager do-map can be found here: http://pastebin.com/eyN0uzPB - I wrote it somehow similar to map. any comments on it?
09:19	pdk	(vec (map f colls)) :p
09:19	pdk	also putting )'s on their own lines is usually bad form unlike with }'s in C
09:20	clgv	pdk: yeah ok. except formatting^^ It's my thing - you might reformat it as you please :P
09:20	Chousuke	no-one will like reading your code if you write it like that though
09:20	clgv	(vec (map f colls)) has syntactic and runtime overhead
09:21	Chousuke	mmh
09:21	Chousuke	are you sure?
09:21	pdk	everyone ends up letting the editor space stuff for them in the end with lisp anyway so just run it through autoformat after you're done writing it i guess
09:21	tomoj	syntactic overhead?!?
09:21	Chousuke	I mean, (def do-map (comp vec map))
09:21	clgv	I dont know an autoformat tool
09:21	Chousuke	pdk: that's not an option if you're collaborating on something though
09:22	shtutgart`	Do you remember that Steve Egge's thread about saying "yes"? ;)
09:23	Chousuke	the runtime overhead for the one-line implementation of do-map is a couple extra short-lived objects.
09:23	Chousuke	the JVM excels at working with those.
09:23	Chousuke	so they're basically free.
09:24	Chousuke	doing it manually is a decent exercise I guess but not exactly efficient use of programmer-time :)
09:26	clgv	Chousuke: well do-map was written in 5-10mins - so the programmer-time was reasonable ;)
09:26	Chousuke	clgv: that's pretty bad compared to the 2 seconds it took for me to write my version :P
09:27	clgv	Chousuke: well I am currently measuring runtime difference ;)
09:29	shtutgart`	Hm. Is it right that we do not have a naming convention for globals? I've just spent 5 minutes to figure out where an IllegalArgumentException comes from, and finally discovered that I have local binding shadowing global var...
09:31	Chousuke	shtutgart`: most globals are supposed to be constants and as such don't need anything special
09:31	lnostdal-laptop	pdk, it'll indent horizontally allright, but the vertical space is lost
09:32	Chousuke	rebindable globals are called foo
09:32	shtutgart`	Chousuke: I know. But such constant can also be atoms or refs.
09:33	Chousuke	shtutgart`: it's still a constant
09:33	shtutgart`	Chousuke: I know, but it's global!
09:33	Chousuke	shtutgart`: what does that matter?
09:33	Chousuke	shtutgart`: if it's a ref, its mutability is clear from how you use it anyway
09:34	shtutgart`	Chousuke: see my first message :) Well, likely it's just my inattention
09:35	Chousuke	of course, no-one will stop you if you really want to use some naming convention for globals
09:36	lnostdal-laptop	shtutgart`, perhaps you're using (let .. ) where (binding ..) should be used?
09:37	lnostdal-laptop	... and i think this-is-the-style-for-dynamic-globals and for the other more traditional globals there is no convention .. i'm -using-this-style-for-them-though-
09:38	shtutgart`	lnostdal-laptop: no, I just had local with the same name as var (and got confusing exception with no line number known)
09:38	chouser	in some lisps +this+ is used for globals
09:38	lnostdal-laptop	that's constants, is it not, chouser ?
09:38	shtutgart`	-this-style- looks really better than +this+
09:38	chouser	lnostdal-laptop: oh, probably
09:39	chouser	but in Clojure, global namespaced vars are used for all our functions too -- surely you're not going to put dashes around all of them?
09:39	lnostdal-laptop	in CL i used +this+ for constants, -this- for globals (only some CL implementations supported that tho; i.e. SBCL), and this for dynamic globals
09:39	chouser	they're in no less danger of be shadowed than other vars
09:40	lnostdal-laptop	hm, yeah, lisp-1
09:40	clgv	Chousuke: for input colls of length 100 measuring over 100 repetions my do-map needs only 3/4 of vec+map. for colls of length 1,000,000 and 100 repititions do-map only need 60% of vec+map
09:41	lnostdal-laptop	uh, but since the naming style for vars and functions differ it'll be ok i guess
09:42	shtutgart`	chouser: right, but I can't remember any problems with functions (don't know why, maybe functions usually have more unique names (e.g. in my example i had var named files))
09:42	shtutgart`	lnostdal-laptop: agree
09:42	lnostdal-laptop	a-function -a-global- a-dynamic-global less chance of clashes there than in the a-function and a-global case
09:43	shtutgart`	but @-an-atom- is not so good; maybe @an-atom- or smth like?
09:43	chouser	shtutgart`: I actually am more likely to have problems with functions, wanting to name locals things like str, map, vec, list...
09:45	shtutgart`	chouser: but there is naming conventions for such stuff (like s, m, v, lst, etc)
09:48	shtutgart`	although, even clojure.core doesn't follow this style regularly; e.g., assoc takes map, key and val, when update-in takes m and k
09:50	pdk	stick the- in front of everything
09:50	pdk	problem solved!
09:54	shtutgart`	indeed it's a good idea
09:55	chouser	shtutgart`: hm, I suppose that is a naming convention.
09:59	shtutgart`	chouser: never seen the-globals style in someone's code
09:59	chouser	sorry, I was away. I meant those single-letter locals are a naming convention
10:01	shtutgart`	That's exactly what I mean
10:01	chouser	yes, I was agreeing
10:03	shtutgart`	ah, ok :) my english is not very good, I don't always understand what people mean
10:13	jweiss_	can someone recommend a way to take a zipper where the current loc is some arbitrary place in the tree, and return one whose loc is the root? (can either rebuild a new zipper with the root node, or repeatedly call up until you hit the root)
10:14	jweiss_	i'm not sure which one is more expensive
10:14	jweiss_	they both seem pretty inefficient actually
10:36	whidden	Are there any issues/contexts with using send?
10:37	whidden	The reason I ask is that I'm getting a ThreadPoolExecutor$AbortPolicy.rejectedExecution exception.
10:41	jweiss_	i get the feeling i'm using zippers wrong, i keep wanting the node, but without the children - but i get the entire tree and end up with much larger data structures than i really need
10:42	gfrlog	there isn't any jsonp middleware for ring is there?
10:42	whidden	The stacktrace I'm getting is here: git://gist.github.com/1078109.git
10:43	whidden	hmmm better link is; https://gist.github.com/1078109
10:46	cemerick	It's ironic that the ML thread discussing my survey results post, which talks about the ML going off the rails, has gone off the rails.
10:47	paraseba	What are the plans for c.c.swing-utils? is going to be converted to its own project? is there any successors I'm not aware of?
10:50	shtutgart`	paraseba: seesaw?
10:52	ejackson	cemerick: humans - as if entropy alone weren't enough to ensure chaos.
10:54	paraseba	shtutgart`: it seems a lot bigger
10:54	shtutgart`	it is
10:55	mprentice	do you guys know of a function that works like clojure.xml/emit but will safely escape attribute values and string contents?
10:59	mprentice	jweiss_: i've been doing quite a bit of xml tree walking lately. you need help?
11:05	sritchie	hey all -- does anyone have an example of how to use gen-class to define a nested class?
11:08	jweiss_	mprentice: yeah, i guess what i'm missing is a way to get the node minus the children
11:09	mprentice	jweiss_: so just the tag name and the attributes?
11:09	jweiss_	mprentice: it's not an xml zipper, just a generic one
11:10	jweiss_	but yeah, that's the xml equivalent
11:11	mprentice	jweiss_: you can filter by (complement branch?)
11:12	mprentice	that should get you all the children of the current node that are leaf nodes
11:12	jweiss_	mprentice: no, because in my zipper, all the nodes are branches
11:12	jweiss_	which is why i'm starting to think i may be doing it wrong
11:13	jweiss_	should a branch just have children and no other info of its own?
11:14	mprentice	jweiss_: not necessarily. but you do need to know the structure if it has other info. do you have an example?
11:16	jweiss_	mprentice, my structure is like this - a map where one of the keys is a list of children: {:name blah :description "hi there" :children [{:name "child1"} {:name "child2" ]}
11:17	jweiss_	i suppose i could just dissoc :children
11:17	jweiss_	but i thought there was some build-in zipper way to do this
11:21	gtrak`	so, say I have a clojure ring web-app, and I'm required to integrate a security framework to enable x509 and PKI, what's the least evil approach? I'm considering spring security but this would require deployment within a servlet container
11:30	mprentice	jweiss_: dissoc children sounds like the way
12:06	paraseba	seancorfield: Sean, I just added a new patch for JDBC-11. The patch is working for me, and I thing it's a pretty urgent issue
12:19	jfkw	Just attempted an install on Ubuntu Server 11.04 of clojure dependencies for use with Leiningen. I am finding it diffucult to pull in a jre/jdk without X on that system. Any suggestions or URL?
12:20	semperos	jfkw: you mean you're trying to use apt-get or aptitude to install a JDK?
12:23	semperos	if you want to use a JDK available within the Ubuntu repo's, you can do a "sudo aptitude search jdk" to see a list of available ones, then install the one you want
12:24	semperos	if you want to install the Sun/Oracle one, you can download the self-extracting installer here http://download.oracle.com/otn-pub/java/jdk/6u26-b03/jdk-6u26-linux-i586.bin
12:25	semperos	this post, though old, provides instructions for installing Java using the installer: http://dhruba.name/2009/07/13/installing-java-scala-and-vim-support-on-linux/
12:26	semperos	jfkw: didn't see you dropped off
12:26	semperos	if you want to install the Sun/Oracle one, you can
12:26	semperos	download the self-extracting installer here
12:26	semperos	http://download.oracle.com/otn-pub/java/jdk/6u26-b03/jdk-6u26-linux-i586.bin
12:27	semperos	this post, though old, provides instructions for
12:27	semperos	installing Java using the installer:
12:27	semperos	http://dhruba.name/2009/07/13/installing-java-scala-and-vim-support-on-linux/
12:27	cky	You can also add the "partner" repository in Ubuntu and add the sun-java6-jdk package.
12:28	jfkw	semperos: and cky thanks, will check these out.
12:28	technomancy	maybe openjdk-6-jre-headless ?
12:29	cky	jfkw: Oops, I missed seeing your "no X dependency" part. Please disregard my comment.
12:29	cky	jfkw: technomancy's comment is better.
12:29	amalloy	jweiss_: isn't zip/root the way to get back to the root? you asked about that earlier
12:30	amalloy	and Chousuke, shtutgart`: (comp doall map) is going to be more efficient than (comp vec map), since apparently he cares about efficiency
12:31	jfkw	techomancy: thanks openjdk-6-jre-headless will work well. I didn't realize it initially, but maven2 package is the one pulling in all of X probably through its own dependencies.
12:32	jfkw	Is it the right presumption that a system packaged maven2 commonly used? Or do I build a non-system maven{2,3} under my home directory?
12:43	technomancy	jfkw: yeah, maven2 has a huge pile of unneeded deps... by default it will pull in gcj, groovy, and rhino (!)
12:44	technomancy	I wouldn't bother building your own unless you want new features that aren't in apt yet
12:44	gtrak`	jfkw, you can download the maven binaries too
13:00	clgv	&(map (fn [_] (map rand (range 5))) (range 5))
13:00	sexpbot	⟹ ((0.0 0.8441228844049946 0.7772274956553189 0.7283555804898323 2.0675454024470383) (0.0 0.04178595345506553 0.192762651873303 2.786763908112922 0.8947957998984526) (0.0 0.6043441057133377 0.2693049014431528 1.1875086636781094 0.2383735279084469) (0.0 0.8743459153161... http://gist.github.com/1078419
13:01	clgv	why is the first entry always zero (0.0)?
13:02	kumarshantanu	jfkw: are you trying to run Java as a daemon?
13:02	clgv	I guess I have to use repeatedly. but the behavior with map is odd, anyway
13:04	cemerick	clgv: because ##(rand 0) is always 0
13:04	sexpbot	⟹ 0.0
13:04	zerokarmaleft	hiredman: is conduit able to connect with a password?
13:04	clgv	cemerick: lol right.^^
13:07	khebbie	My first clojure code https://github.com/khebbie/PET - any comments?
13:08	Gamli	Hi all - I am new here in this IRC-channel and I have a question about the arguments of a "deftype".
13:08	Gamli	Is it right that the arguments MUST NOT have hyphens since they are compiled as java classes?
13:08	Gamli	e.g. is it wrong if I declare a type as this:
13:08	Gamli	(deftype Cow [cows-phrase])
13:08	Gamli	?
13:08	Gamli	ups - sorry about the 5 lines
13:08	joegallo	khebbie: (defn foo "docstring goes here" [] (do-some-stuff))
13:08	amalloy	Gamli: hyphens are fine
13:08	clgv	nope. it is legal to use hyphens.
13:08	joegallo	that got me for a long time too
13:09	amalloy	it gets turned into cows_phrase
13:09	amalloy	you can put ! and ? in there too - they get munged the same way functions=>classnames do
13:09	khebbie	joegallo: You say i should adddocstrings?
13:09	Gamli	amalloy: but if i use it it always says that the field is not defined when it is an REPL-output
13:09	joegallo	dc-create, db-insert and db-query-for-today have something that i think is probably intended to be a docstring, but instead is just a string in the body of the function
13:10	amalloy	khebbie: you have (some of) the docstrings in the wrong place
13:10	joegallo	exactly
13:10	amalloy	Gamli: you'
13:10	jfkw	technomancy: gtrac kumarshantanum, I'm trying to configure a colleague's ubuntu laptop to experiment with clojure, and a spare ubuntu server to figure out the no-X dependency chain, which looks pretty grim once I pull in maven. I would definitely undertake building maven from source/bin to avoid the X dependencies.
13:10	khebbie	Ok
13:10	amalloy	re probably using deftype wrong. do you want a type or a record?
13:10	khebbie	amalloy: Where
13:11	amalloy	everywhere that joegallo just said :P
13:11	khebbie	Ok
13:11	technomancy	jfkw: bummer; doesn't sound like fun. is it really worth all that hassle to avoid X?
13:11	technomancy	or is it a matter of principle at this point? =)
13:11	joegallo	khebbie: minor complaint -- closing parens should not be on their own line (some people disagree with that)
13:12	technomancy	joegallo: some people are wrong
13:12	amalloy	people who disagree are loons
13:12	joegallo	hehehehe
13:12	khebbie	amalloy: Ok, im a c# guy so i kinda use them as }
13:13	amalloy	in his case though i can kinda see the point: to clarify that each if has no else branch. which leads me to....use when instead of if, granted that you want no else
13:13	jfkw	technomancy: both ;) If we use clojure, it would be deployed on dozens of servers, so avoiding the X dependency is essential IMHO to keep server management under control. I know it's going to be less than fun.
13:13	technomancy	jfkw: deployment != dev environment
13:13	technomancy	no reason to put mvn on your servers; all you need is a jre
13:13	jfkw	technomancy: Good point, deploy jars only.
13:13	khebbie	amalloy: Whats the diff between if and when?
13:14	technomancy	(or maybe a JDK if you want to run the CDT debugger server-side)
13:14	amalloy	&(doc when)
13:14	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([test & body]); Evaluates test. If logical true, evaluates body in an implicit do."
13:14	joegallo	khebbie: matter of style, but you can do this (Class/forName "whatever")
13:14	khebbie	amalloy: Aha
13:15	khebbie	Ok, well got something to work on then
13:15	khebbie	Thx all
13:15	amalloy	khebbie: thinking of ) as } is a handicap to understanding. in C# (for example), "if" is a statement, while "+" is part of an expression. clojure has only expressions, so having some of your constructs get "special" ending-) and not all of them is confusing
13:15	khebbie	amalloy: Ok
13:17	Gamli	amalloy: this is somehow strange. it is all ok as long as i just use the types in code. but as soon as the REPL should print the result (I'm using CCW for eclipse) i gat the "No matching field found" exception
13:17	joegallo	khebbie: you might not need that Class/forName call at all, it looks like c.c.sql handles it for you https://github.com/clojure/clojure-contrib/blob/b8d2743d3a89e13fc9deb2844ca2167b34aaa9b6/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/sql/internal.clj#L84
13:18	Gamli	amalloy: was that for me? (the code/stacktrace comment)
13:18	amalloy	indeed
13:18	khebbie	joegallo: Ok
13:19	clgv	Gamli: post your code at pastebin.com or something ;)
13:19	Gamli	ok - i'll put together a small example
13:21	joegallo	khebbie: you can combine those (:require) forms in your ns
13:21	joegallo	fyi -- almost everything i've said has been just nitpicking, overall the code looks pretty good
13:22	joegallo	might want to look at sql/insert-values
13:23	Gamli	amalloy: hope it is ok to post code here
13:23	Gamli	(deftype Cow [cows-phrase])
13:23	Gamli	(defn run [] (Cow. "Moo I'm a Coo"))
13:23	Gamli	if i call "run" it throws the exception
13:23	Gamli	args - again sorry for the 4 line G
13:23	khebbie	joegallo: Yeah have been thinking bout insert-values
13:24	amalloy	it's probably complaining that it doesn't know how to print your bare type
13:24	amalloy	if you used defrecord (as i suggested), that comes with a lot of built-in features
13:24	Gamli	but it works if i replace the hyphen with an underscore
13:24	khebbie	joegallo: Hoping to work on it a bit more and build up queries in code
13:25	amalloy	that's pretty weird
13:25	Gamli	yeah - thats what I thought
13:25	Gamli	I mean - I could just replace the hyphens but... you know
13:26	amalloy	what clojure version?
13:26	cemerick	amalloy: it's a bug in core_print.clj; the print-method handler for types isn't munging field names.
13:26	Gamli	by the way - I'm using 1.2.0-alpha8
13:27	amalloy	Gamli: i don't think 1.2.0 ever had eight alphas. maybe you mean 1.3>'
13:27	Gamli	cemerick: ah ok - so I just HAVE TO replace the field-names?
13:27	cemerick	core_print.clj, line 246; throw in (namespace-munge fld) instead of just fld, and it works as it should
13:27	Gamli	amalloy: sorry, 1.3.0-alpha8
13:27	cemerick	Gamli: At the moment; it's a bug, but only related to printing of the types. You almost certainly want to be using defrecord to start with though, as amalloy suggested.
13:27	Gamli	cemerick: ok - I'll try that
13:28	cemerick	Gamli: in general, see: http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
13:28	unlogic	Anyone uses emacs-clojure-vagrant?
13:29	Gamli	amalloy, cemerick: ok, I'll try both (changing the code and using defrecord). thx in advance :)
13:31	amalloy	cemerick: it's a new-in-1.3 problem? i don't see it on 1.2.1
13:31	Gamli	amalloy: yeah a colleague said the same a minute ago to me :)
13:32	cemerick	amalloy: yeah; 1.2.x didn't have readable types/records
13:32	amalloy	oh, it's for the #user.Test[4] notation
13:33	amalloy	i thought that was just for print-dup, not for repl printing
13:33	dnolen	unlogic: I tried it, interesting but it's a pretty incredibly long install process.
13:33	unlogic	dnolen: well, I managed to go through that process but I kind of got no idea what to do next
13:34	dnolen	unlogic: what OS are you using?
13:34	unlogic	I logged to virtual machine via "vagrant ssh", but there is only lone unconfigured emacs
13:34	unlogic	I use ubuntu
13:35	dnolen	unlogic: yes, so ran into this as well. for some reason the .sh in the repo doesn't get run. I copied it into the VM, chmod u+x and ran it and then I had a working setup.
13:35	cemerick	bah, the compiler needs tweaks too
13:36	unlogic	dnolen: Oh, yeah, how do you copy files into the virtual machine? "vagrant scp" doesn't work for me)
13:36	dnolen	unlogic: copy and paste :)
13:36	technomancy	unlogic: the directory containing the Vagrantfile is mounted as /vagrant on the VM
13:36	technomancy	so if there were problems running the provisioning script, you can cd /vagrant && sudo clojure_emacs.sh
13:37	unlogic	technomancy: Ah, I get it now:) Thanks
13:41	Gamli	amalloy, cemerick: I just tried out the 1.3.0-beta1 and it doesn't work either. so I'll go with your ideas (really this time)
13:41	cemerick	no one trusts poor ol' cemerick :-P
13:42	unlogic	technomancy: OK, script has finished now. I see jark and lein have beein installedm, but emacs still looks virgin
13:42	Gamli	cemerick: did you state something about the beta1? if so, im sorry that i read over it ;)
13:43	amalloy	cemerick: i doubt your previous statement
13:44	whidden	If I assoc a new key-val pair to a defrecord the type of the resulting value is still the original defrecord. Is this expected?
13:44	cemerick	amalloy: I'm being cheeky. :-)
13:44	amalloy	cemerick: me too! observe how i was mistrusting you
13:44	amalloy	whidden: yes
13:44	cemerick	ah, crap. I've been irc punk'd.
13:45	amalloy	i will frame this chat log and place it on my wall
13:45	whidden	amalloy: fizzlesticks, guess i need another hat.
13:45	unlogic	I still don't quite get it: should I use this vagrant vm just to run swank and connect to it from emacs on my host OS? Or is it designed to hack everything inside?
13:45	amalloy	...hat?
13:46	technomancy	unlogic: the idea is it's self-contained
13:46	technomancy	unlogic: M-x package-updates will pull in the packages once you're inside emacs if the provisioning script didnt get them
13:49	cemerick	Gamli, amalloy: the ticket to watch for the deftype field name issue, if you're so inclined: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-819
13:50	whidden	Why would one want to use a 'defrecord' over a hash map?
13:50	unlogic	techmonancy: Thanks a lot, finally got it working.
13:50	amalloy	whidden: good question. too many people use defrecord just because it feels OO
13:50	amalloy	see, eg, http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
13:51	Gamli	cemerick: thx - nice to see somone care about such stuff. its a real pain in the ass during development if you don't know where the error comes from :)
13:51	whidden	amalloy: ooh its been updated.... :) thanks
13:52	cemerick	Gamli: We generally try to man the counter decently around here. :-)
13:52	mprentice	hmm is there a clojars or maven repository for GATE (gate.ac.uk)?
13:53	cemerick	whidden: I put the first version of it together when I was in a particularly interop state of mind.
13:54	technomancy	mprentice: $ lein search gate 2 # => [uk.ac.gate/gate-core "6.0"] among others
13:54	amalloy	cemerick: i can't think of a case when you need methods not specified by interfaces
13:54	whidden	so the question i have is what is performance sensitive?
13:54	amalloy	but i assume such cases exist: have an example handy?
13:54	Gamli	amalloy: there are such cases
13:54	amalloy	whidden: code whose performance you, personally, care about
13:55	whidden	amalloy: I care about all my code ;)
13:55	amalloy	then stop it :P
13:55	Gamli	amalloy: trying to put together some example
13:55	cemerick	amalloy: Client defines the API, or a library requires particular method names and signatures without providing an interface. You want to write the thing in Clojure. Thus, additional methods, and gen-class.
13:56	amalloy	oh, sure
13:56	Gamli	amalloy: here is the example -> what cemerick said ^^
13:56	amalloy	haha
13:57	cemerick	whidden: an example of "performance sensitive" is accessing slots in a hot loop. Maps will kill you, defrecords with :keyname accessors will get close to Java perf, and .field access will be Java perf.
13:58	amalloy	cemerick: hah, my comment is awaiting moderation
13:59	mprentice	technomancy: ah, thanks! i don't have something setup right, i get maven error from lein plugin install lein-search 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT
13:59	cemerick	amalloy: where? on my blog?
13:59	amalloy	yeah, i posted it just now
13:59	technomancy	mprentice: it's built-in to lein 1.6.1
13:59	mprentice	mmmk, i'm on 1.5.2. i'll try upgrading.
13:59	cemerick	amalloy: first time commenters are put in moderation. You'll go straight through next time.
14:00	unlogic	technomancy: and the last question, sorry for wasting your time. is there a chance to run X application inside vagrant, or this OS image is terminal-only?
14:00	amalloy	technomancy: i seem to have gotten a "development/hacking" version of lein, which refuses to upgrade itself. what do i need to do to get a stable one?
14:00	technomancy	amalloy: want to try my .debs?
14:01	amalloy	hey, if you need testers, sure
14:01	amalloy	if it breaks, i still have cake :P
14:01	technomancy	git fetch && git checkout 1.6.1 will upgrade your checkout though.
14:01	technomancy	lemme see
14:01	amalloy	technomancy: but i don't have a git checkout anywhere i can find, is my problem
14:01	whidden	cemerick: crap... I think I've painted myself into a corner. Time to use another color.
14:02	amalloy	i did a lein self-install, i'm pretty sure
14:02	technomancy	oh, you did a wget of bin/lein from master; I see
14:02	amalloy	yeah, probly
14:02	technomancy	lemme know if these work for you: http://p.hagelb.org/lein-debs.tar
14:02	technomancy	lightly-tested
14:03	technomancy	else just rm it and wget from the stable branch
14:03	amalloy	technomancy: to delete the existing version, just kill ~/bin/lein?
14:03	technomancy	right
14:04	technomancy	I've tested it on sid, but as long as you install the other debs in the tarball you should be fine on any relatively-recent apt system
14:05	amalloy	technomancy: ugh. it wants me to install clojure 1.2 system-wide? i've been brainwashed too well to tolerate that
14:05	technomancy	oh bugger, yeah that's not going to work outside debian unstable/testing
14:05	technomancy	forgot about that part
14:06	technomancy	amalloy: as long as you consider it a user-level application, putting jars in /usr/share/java is just fine
14:06	amalloy	technomancy: have you considered setting "stable" to the default branch for lein? might prevent more mistakes like mine
14:07	technomancy	"default branch"?
14:07	amalloy	the one that people see when they browse the repo
14:07	clojurebot	max people is 317
14:07	amalloy	and also gets checked out by default in clones
14:07	amalloy	(not really nice to have the two of those conflated together)
14:07	technomancy	yeah, definitely don't want it for clones
14:07	technomancy	the readme on the master branch links to the stable branch; I think that's good enough
14:08	scgilardi	well, easy enough to git checkout master after cloning
14:08	amalloy	yeah, probably
14:11	jcromartie	Is there a good solution for cross-thread var-binding/earmuffs? I really like the idea of something like CL's special vars... but once you throw a thread in the mix you can't use them that way.
14:11	amalloy	jcromartie: that changes in 1.3, i'm told
14:11	jcromartie	I mean maybe some kind of careful application of macros could do it?
14:11	jcromartie	or what
14:12	amalloy	doesn't seem worth the pain
14:12	jcromartie	I am thinking of things like web apps with session or user or client and things like that
14:13	jcromartie	I think Sandbar does something like that?
14:13	technomancy	(doc bound-fn)
14:13	clojurebot	"([& fntail]); Returns a function defined by the given fntail, which will install the same bindings in effect as in the thread at the time bound-fn was called. This may be used to define a helper function which runs on a different thread, but needs the same bindings in place."
14:13	hiredman	those don't seem like thread locals, so why would you use threadlocal bindings for them?
14:14	jcromartie	I guess I am just wishing for CL's special vars
14:15	jcromartie	but guess anything that might be used that way would probably not play well cross-thread anyway
14:15	jcromartie	like in or *out
14:15	jcromartie	*
14:17	whidden	technomancy: If I use lein swank to run/debug my code i get thread-pool exceptions, this also happens if I use lein run, but not if I use lein repl, using latest lein of course. Any ideas whe?
14:17	whidden	*why?
14:18	technomancy	whidden: I don't know. it works fine for me, but others have reported the same behaviour you're seeing.
14:18	technomancy	I don't have enough data to reproduce the problem.
14:18	technomancy	clojurebot: agent thread pool
14:18	clojurebot	the agent thread pool is kind of a problem in Clojure, see http://tech.puredanger.com/2010/06/08/clojure-agent-thread-pools/ and http://p.hagelb.org/shutdown-agents.jpg
14:18	technomancy	^ is the root cause of the problem
14:19	amalloy	technomancy: i don't get it, though. surely you're never calling shutdown-agents in lein?
14:19	mdeboard	whidden: I had the same problem last night sir.
14:19	technomancy	amalloy: I have to
14:19	scgilardi	jcromartie: for things that are (truly) jvm-wide you can use a var in a namespace bound to an atom and set its value with swap! or reset! when it should change.
14:19	mdeboard	whidden: On a different project
14:19	technomancy	otherwise the process will never exit
14:20	technomancy	amalloy: this is after all the in-project code has finished, of course.
14:20	mdeboard	lol @ scumbag agents
14:20	whidden	<sigh>
14:20	technomancy	amalloy: but it only shuts down after the in-project code is "done" running
14:20	amalloy	makes sense, i guess
14:20	whidden	makes debugging a bit of a pain.
14:20	technomancy	in-project code needs to block on the main thread if it wants to keep running, otherwise there's no way to work around this Clojure bug
14:21	whidden	technomancy: hmm i guess I can do that.
14:21	amalloy	technomancy: or start up some other non-daemon thread
14:21	technomancy	amalloy: that will keep it alive, but if it doesn't block then shutdown-agents will still run
14:22	technomancy	and there's bloody no mechanism for restarting the agent thread pool. grrrrrr
14:22	amalloy	interesting
14:22	technomancy	it really does suck
14:22	mdeboard	surprising too
14:22	technomancy	surprising it's gone this long without being addressed
14:22	amalloy	i was trying to imagine some mechanism for this when i was reading your ML thread, but didn't come up with any clever ideas
14:22	technomancy	it's Google Code issue 120, which tells you something about how long it's been ignored.
14:23	amalloy	except one that doesn't work because it involves making threads change daemon/non-daemon status
14:26	mdeboard	whidden: By any chance, are you running in a VM? Virtualbox, vagrant, etc.?
14:26	hiredman	clojurebot: scope?
14:26	clojurebot	scope is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73838
14:26	whidden	mdeboard: no... i'm doing a lot of dbus interactions through a java proxy :(
14:27	technomancy	whidden: you can block in your -main by using @(promise)
14:27	technomancy	whidden: swank already does that though, so no idea why it's still falling through to shutdown-agents
14:28	whidden	technomancy: I tried that and it still fails in the same place.
14:35	mdeboard	technomancy: fwiw I can reproduce the problem 100% of the time. Is there any reports or other data I can generate and put... somewhere to help diagnose?
14:35	mdeboard	Are there any*
14:36	mdeboard	My error case was that I'd forked uh
14:37	mdeboard	4clojure.com to try my hand at implementing some UI tweaks I'd been whining about, I started up mongo and `lein run`, which both responded just fine. But when I tried to connect via the browser it threw the thread exceptions
14:37	technomancy	mdeboard: maybe add a println to the point right before shutdown-agents is called in leiningen.compile/get-readable-form
14:38	mdeboard	technomancy: Will do, once I get home
14:39	technomancy	could also add one to swank.swank/start-server after the .join doseq
14:39	technomancy	maybe get-thread-list isn't finding your thread for whatever reason
14:56	jcromartie	Hey, #clojure, thanks for not being jerks.
14:57	jcromartie	(after spending time in some ahem less civilized language/framework channels)
15:06	Munksgaard	ihkhgkjgkugui
15:06	Munksgaard	i am horny
15:10	paraseba	why is reduce implemented in terms of next instead of rest? Is it a performance optimization?
15:11	paraseba	next is "less lazy" than rest, since it needs to check if there are more elements remaining. Of course, reduce doesn't need to exploit the full lazyness, since is going to traverse all the seq
15:11	amalloy	paraseba: it's going to be calling seq anyway, so there's no point using rest-then-seq
15:13	paraseba	I had some buggy code, that worked with 1.2.1 but not with 1.3.0. It somehow depended on reduce getting only one element at a time
15:13	paraseba	I was curious about where that behavior changed, but I can't find it
15:14	amalloy	that sounds like a pretty hard bug to introduce
15:15	paraseba	amalloy: I was generating a lazy seq of "user actions", and then using reduce to process the seq as it happens
15:15	paraseba	now with 1.3.0 I need two events for the first call to the reducing function
15:16	paraseba	because, of course, next needs to process 2 events. But I can't understand why it was working with 1.2.1
15:16	amalloy	huh? why does it need to process two events?
15:17	amalloy	this doesn't sound at all related to rest/next
15:18	dans	i'm having trouble installing clojure-contrib, i get the error: Unable to find resource 'org.clojure:clojure:pom:1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT' in repository clojure-snapshots (http://build.clojure.org/snapshots)
15:18	dans	can anyone help me on this?
15:18	technomancy	dans: switch to version 1.2.0
15:18	technomancy	no sense in using a snapshot
15:18	dans	i've just pulled the master branch from the git, so i have to specify the version?
15:18	amalloy	might as well be 1.2.1 by now
15:18	paraseba	amalloy: because reduce does something like (recur (next s) f (first s)). So, first wont return until we have the first event, and next wont return until we have the second
15:18	technomancy	dans: the master branch of what?
15:19	dans	this is the procedure i've followed http://riddell.us/ClojureOnUbuntu.html
15:19	technomancy	=(
15:19	amalloy	blog posts get out of date very quickly
15:19	dans	git clone git://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib.git
15:19	technomancy	clojurebot: getting started?
15:19	clojurebot	getting started is http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started
15:19	technomancy	dans: try that instead
15:19	dans	alright, cheers
15:20	technomancy	many a prospective user has been befuddled by those dang riddell.us pages
15:20	cemerick	it still references github.com/richhickey — can't be too recent
15:20	technomancy	clojurebot: riddell.us is a great source of outdated, unnecessarily-complicated, and confusing instructions.
15:20	clojurebot	In Ordnung
15:22	scgilardi	I'm not sure there is a 1.2.1 build of contrib. I've been using 1.2.1 of clojure with 1.2.0 of contrib.
15:22	paraseba	amalloy: if reduce used rest instead, that could return before the second event. I think...
15:23	zakwilson	It just came to mind that ClojureQL makes it very easy to ask for things that don't make any sense whatsoever, like a join between two different databases.
15:24	amalloy	scgilardi: there isn't, but he was having trouble resolving clojure, not contrib
15:24	amalloy	paraseba: yes, i suppose it could. interesting
15:25	scgilardi	amalloy: gotchya, thanks.
15:25	dans	Clojure is unlike most language in that you don't generally install Clojure itself ?
15:26	paraseba	amalloy: I'm using reduce for something it's not intended, processing a seq as it gets produced. But, I can't find why it works before 1.3.0
15:26	amalloy	paraseba: but if you really don't care about more than one element at a time, you should use doseq or dorun/map
15:26	cemerick	dans: Generally, no. Clojure is "just" a Java library.
15:27	paraseba	amalloy: yes, but I'd be implementing reduce, exactly reduce, just that using doseq.
15:28	paraseba	amalloy: It's a swing app, all state is passed through events with this reduce
15:28	paraseba	reduce seemed like the perfect choice for this
15:29	paraseba	each even "handler" receives the previous state of the application, and produces a new state. Each element in the collection is a user "action"
15:29	paraseba	but ... it's broken ... reduce won't work ... it needs 2 events to start processing
15:29	schauerlich	can you start off reduce with a null action?
15:30	paraseba	schauerlich: I could, I guess...
15:31	paraseba	and what's driving me crazy is, that it shouldn't work on 1.2.1, but it does. Can't find out why
15:31	paraseba	1.2.1 also uses next in reduce
15:31	paraseba	maybe some change in lazy-seq ... but can't find it
15:33	hiredman	paraseba: I would definitely bring that up on the mailing list, seems like a big change in behavior
15:33	babilen	dans: I would recommend to use leiningen -- there will even be Debian/Ubuntu packages soonish and it will make ease your life tremendously.
15:34	paraseba	hiredman: good idea, I'll "reduce" this to a simple example that shows the behavior change
15:37	dans	babilen: yes, im looking at that now (just got clojure running)
15:37	dans	planning on trying out noir
15:40	babilen	dans: That way you can just run "lein new ; lein repl
15:40	babilen	dans: It also works well with vimclojure and/or swank if you use vim or emacs.
15:51	dans	yes babilen, im using vimclojure :)
15:54	danbell	clojurebot riddell.us
15:55	danbell	clojurebot: riddell.us?
15:55	clojurebot	riddell.us is a great source of outdated, unnecessarily-complicated, and confusing instructions.
15:55	babilen	dans: You might be interested in https://github.com/autre/lein-vimclojure in that case
15:56	dans	thanks
16:07	jcromartie	yay for point-free style: (def name-sort (partial sort-by (comp last words)))
16:22	mdeboard	jcromartie: point-free?
16:25	amalloy	mdeboard: (defn add-one [x] (+ 1 x)) has one "point", x. roughly, a named variable
16:25	amalloy	(def add-one (partial + 1)) achieves the same thing with no points
16:25	mdeboard	ahh ok
16:25	markskilbeck	Is point-free better?
16:25	amalloy	meh
16:26	Scriptor	it's a haskell/(ML?) thing
16:26	amalloy	$google haskell point-free evolution
16:26	sexpbot	First out of 20300 results is: The Evolution of a Haskell Programmer
16:26	sexpbot	http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html
16:26	technomancy	I switched away from point-free when I realized I wasn't making high scores any more.
16:26	markskilbeck	Danke.
16:26	Scriptor	basically all code is viewed as a graph, with edges being functions and actual variables being being nodes
16:26	mdeboard	I dunno point-free doesn't seem like consistent syntax
16:26	Scriptor	nodes = points
16:26	dans	im trying to install leinigen, i have lein.sh chmodded and in my path, but im getting command not found
16:27	mdeboard	Can't you do like (+ 1 %) or something
16:27	Scriptor	mdeboard: yea, it's way easier in haskell
16:27	mdeboard	I read it last night but have forgotten :(
16:27	Scriptor	addone = (+ 1)
16:27	technomancy	dans: forget to chmod?
16:27	khebbie	I am using clojure.contrib.sql's with-query-results
16:27	dans	no technomancy
16:27	markskilbeck	If it's 'lein.sh' you'll have to call 'lein.sh', not 'lein', right?
16:27	dans	chmod a+x lein.sh
16:28	technomancy	then it must not be on your path
16:28	markskilbeck	Nvm.
16:28	khebbie	Now in the function where i use it i have to parse the resultset
16:28	khebbie	Is it possible to return the sequence, and parse in an outer scope
16:28	technomancy	markskilbeck: naturally
16:35	jcromartie	of course point-free can just be code golf
16:35	jcromartie	it doesn't really help anybody to have a file full of defs with no arglists, ets.
16:35	jcromartie	(dec usability)
16:35	sexpbot	⟹ -1
16:36	amalloy	technomancy: "naturally" except to a windows user
16:37	technomancy	sure, I don't pretend to understand how windows users think.
16:38	mdeboard	lol
16:41	amalloy	(inc technomancy)
16:41	sexpbot	⟹ 12
16:49	jweiss_	anyone familiar with this class of problem. i'm using a tracing fn i wrote (based on clojure.contrib.trace but uses robert.hooke), but if i enable it in a function, tracing never happens, the hooks are not added. If i run the same sexp in the repl, the hooks get added and tracing works.
16:50	jweiss_	something strange about the repl or swank dealing with vars?
16:59	jweiss_	huh, a doall on the outer for doesn't force the inner for
16:59	jweiss_	that is... odd
16:59	amalloy	that is not at all odd :P
17:00	jweiss_	not sure how the 2nd item in the outer for gets consumed when the inner loop doesn't run
17:00	jweiss_	well it's odd when you're not totally used to thinking lazily
17:00	amalloy	you built a lazy-seq of lazy-seqs
17:01	amalloy	incidentally, if you think the second item in the outer for depends on the first item of an inner for, you probably don't want to have multiple for's at all
17:01	amalloy	paste a snippet of some kind?
17:01	jweiss_	amalloy: right, i get it now. just not the kind of thing you'd expect from a non lazy nested loop
17:02	jweiss_	note to self. whenever the repl works and code inexplicably doesn't, THIS IS WHY
17:02	jweiss_	i'm wondering if having the repl implicitly force evaluation is worth it :)
17:02	amalloy	eg, the difference between ##(for [x (range 3)] (for [y (range 3)] [x y])) and ##(for [x (range 3) y (range 3)] [x y])
17:02	sexpbot	(for [x (range 3)] (for [y (range 3)] [x... ⟹ (([0 0] [0 1] [0 2]) ([1 0] [1 1] [1 2]) ([2 0] [2 1] [2 2]))
17:02	sexpbot	(for [x (range 3) y (range 3)] [x y]) ⟹ ([0 0] [0 1] [0 2] [1 0] [1 1] [1 2] [2 0] [2 1] [2 2])
17:03	jweiss_	amalloy: the outer for has a side effect that needs doing before each inner
17:04	amalloy	whoa. it seems unlikely that for will ever really do what you want
17:04	jweiss_	i suppose i could have used doseq
17:05	jweiss_	since enabling trace is side-effecty
17:14	jao	hi. what's the idiomatic way of adding a new key/value to a map only if the key is not already there (i.e., (if (:key m) m (assoc m :key val))?
17:17	Derander	jao: I don't know if this is the idiomatic way to do it, but I tend to do: (merge {:mykey myvalue} some-other-map)
17:18	jao	Derander, looks good enough. Thanks.
17:19	Derander	jao: any time
17:23	ibdknox	I'm looking for any feedback people might have on Noir as I'm thinking of release 1.1.0 soon
17:37	danbell	ibdknox: dang, still haven't tried it out
17:37	ibdknox	danbell: get on it ;)
17:37	ibdknox	haha
17:38	danbell	ha, yeah
17:38	danbell	i think everyone who uses clojure for web stuff has a half-featured version of noir
17:38	ibdknox	I suspect so
17:38	ibdknox	lol
17:39	hiredman	clojurebot: ssa is http://wingolog.org/archives/2011/07/12/static-single-assignment-for-functional-programmers
17:39	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
17:42	ibdknox	it seems like all the "new" languages are getting bought by companies as of late, you guys think Clojure will get grabbed up?
17:45	amalloy	ibdknox: what does noir "do"? the readme is just like "it's a framework"
17:45	ibdknox	amalloy: essentially it's a series of convenience methods over compojure/hiccup
17:45	ibdknox	what it does at a fundamental level is provide a single point for you to start building a website
17:45	technomancy	ibdknox: more than just relevance you mean?
17:46	ibdknox	technomancy: I think so, though I don't know the details of that relationship?
17:47	dnolen	ibdknox: what else has really been "bought up" recently?
17:47	kwertii	Whoa. Noir is awesome. I am one of those people who had half of Noir built manually on top of Ring in every site I made.
17:47	ibdknox	amalloy: basically instead of trying to figure out how to do cookies or stateful sessions by cobbling bits together, it has a very simple API that brings all those little pieces together
17:48	ibdknox	dnolen: ruby was essentially just acquired by heroku
17:48	ibdknox	dnolen: joyent grabbed node.js (whose logo is truly awful now)
17:48	amalloy	whuuuuut, ruby bought by heroku? that sounds like complete nonsense, but i'm not at all ruby-aware
17:49	ibdknox	amalloy: they just got matz
17:49	kwertii	amalloy: they hired matz and several core guys. Heroku being a part of Salesforce.com.
17:49	dnolen	ibdknox: Matz isn't leaving his other posts. and node.js isn't really a language tho right? It's a I/O programming framework.
17:49	ibdknox	amalloy: if you have the architect, you essentially have the language
17:49	Scriptor_	Eh
17:49	ibdknox	dnolen: fair, it's a platform I would argue
17:49	kwertii	Heroku supports Clojure now. Maybe they'll hire Rich Hickey, too
17:49	kwertii	they certainly seem to have more cash than they know what to do with
17:50	Scriptor_	If matz disagrees with them he wouldbt have a problem getting a job :)
17:50	ibdknox	salesforce is doing extremely well currently
17:50	ibdknox	Scriptor_: I didn't mean it as a bad thing or that they would "control" it per se
17:50	kwertii	seems to be. Heroku cost them $212 _million_. Heroku is cool and all, but ....
17:50	dnolen	kwertii: ibdknox: also rhickey seems like a fairly independent fellow.
17:51	kwertii	dnolen: they'd drive a dumptruck full of money up to his house and say "hey, work on whatever you like, just let us put your name on our website..."
17:51	ibdknox	dnolen: agreed
17:51	dnolen	kwertii: I'm sure he would decline. rhickey seems to prefer to work on his own terms.
17:52	kwertii	dnolen: they'd let him work on his own terms. (the "work on whatever you like" part.) it's a prestige thing for them. they're not going to be telling matz how to develop ruby.
17:52	kwertii	they just want a trophy for their display case
17:53	kwertii	this way, they can tell investors, "by the way, we have the author of Ruby on board..."
17:53	ibdknox	lol, I'm not sure how far that would actually go with investors
17:53	ibdknox	also, I don't think they're looking for more money at this point ;)
17:54	kwertii	ibdknox: sadly, much farther than one would rationally expect :p
17:54	dnolen	kwertii: this all ties into a hype side of technologies which are not grounded in reality of the quality/robustness/generality of said technology.
17:54	kwertii	it generalizes to business partners generally. the sales slime at any other big company that they would care to do business with will be impressed
17:54	kwertii	dnolen: yep, agree 100%.
17:55	kwertii	why else would they pay matz when they can use his work for free anyway?
17:55	ibdknox	dnolen: cough node cough
17:55	kwertii	unfortunately, even we programmers need to eat
17:57	kwertii	how much could they possibly be paying matz? 150k, 200k per year, tops. that's pocket change to Salesforce. well worth the price. they can impress people at power lunches all year for that fee.
17:58	ibdknox	it could easily be more than that
17:59	ibdknox	but yes, it's chump change in the grand scheme of things
17:59	dnolen	kwertii: question is, how does all of this actually help Ruby or the programmers that use it?
18:00	kwertii	according to Google Finance, Salesforce had annual revenue of $1.6 BILLION USD in FY 2010
18:00	kwertii	dnolen: well, matz gets to sit around and think about Ruby all day, without worrying about where his next meal will come from. but he was doing that anyway.
18:01	technomancy	he'll get more opportunities to practice speaking English
18:01	ibdknox	lol
18:02	ibdknox	amalloy: Thanks for the correction! Any other thoughts?
18:04	kwertii	as a side note, I have been using Heroku for 7 months at work, and technically speaking, it's great. (not $212m great, but still very nice.) my only problem is that they nickel-and-dime you for every little addon, at exorbitant rates.
18:04	ibdknox	kwertii: yeah, the pricing kills, especially when you compare it to the EC2 instance that they're running on
18:04	ibdknox	lol
18:04	ibdknox	I love the workflow, but can't justify the cost
18:04	kwertii	ibdknox: yep. seems great for the low end, testing ideas out phase, but when I hit upon something that works, it's getting moved to Amazon
18:06	kwertii	I imagine that 50 Heroku clones will pop up over the next year or two and drive the margins down
18:09	kwertii	Google App Engine would be great if they put some ease-of-use convenience layers on top of it. It's far too baroque to set up and get running for mass adoption
18:09	kwertii	but Heroku... just push a Git repo and you're up.
18:20	amalloy	ibdknox: not really. i've been enjoying learning/implementing cookies and such myself
18:21	amalloy	so not really excited about noir
18:21	ibdknox	fair enough :)
18:32	kwertii	as a professional working coder, while it might be fun to mess around with writing my own cookie handler and such, I simply don't have time for that. So, for me, Noir is great.
18:32	kwertii	I had got the idea to write something like it 5 times over the last year, but never got around to it.
18:39	zakwilson	Is anybody here using clj-record? I'm wondering if I want to.
18:41	kwertii	by the way, if anyone here is in the Santa Barbara, California area, we're having the first meeting of the SB Clojure Users Group at 6 PM today. All are welcome!
18:41	digash	blist
18:47	zakwilson	clj-record seems to want each model to be its own namespace, the way ActiveRecord makes each its own class. I'm not sure this is Good. Namespaces are not classes.
18:48	Sushisource	So, maybe someone can explain a weird problem I'm having that I don't understand
18:49	Sushisource	I'm trying to map a function that uploads nodes to a Neo4j database and index
18:49	amalloy	nooooooo, map+side-effects=:(
18:49	Sushisource	Yeah, I figured
18:49	Sushisource	My clojure style needs workd
18:49	zakwilson	(doall (map ...)) works
18:50	Sushisource	YEah!
18:50	Sushisource	See because it worked when I wrapped it in this debug macro
18:50	Sushisource	Which I thought was strange
18:50	gfrlog	zakwilson: wouldn't doseq be nicer?
18:50	Sushisource	Okay, so now that I get that, what's the stylistically correct way to do this?
18:50	zakwilson	Very possibly, but it's harder to turn that in to (doall (pmap ...)) when you decide you want it to be magically parallel.
18:51	Sushisource	I feel like a barely undertand transactions at all
18:51	zakwilson	Transactions have nothing to do with this.
18:51	Sushisource	Hence my feelings
18:51	Sushisource	Lol
18:51	zakwilson	doseq is an imperative-style thing that's a lot like map. It is probably the most idiomatic way to do side effects to everything in a sequence.
18:52	Sushisource	Okay, cool.
18:52	Sushisource	If one were to make such an action parallel, which luckily I don't have to do, what would be the right approach there?
18:52	gfrlog	I like indicating side effects with the word do
18:52	amalloy	zakwilson: doall isn't really parallel to doseq because it holds onto the head. dorun is more like doseq
18:53	zakwilson	map returns a lazy sequence; the thing required to generate each element of it is not done until the value of that elemnet is requested.
18:53	zakwilson	doall causes the whole sequence to be generated immediately
18:55	Sushisource	Welp, this totally works
18:55	Sushisource	Thanks for the advice
18:55	zakwilson	I had to look up dorun. I don't think I've ever used it. It is also a reasonable way to do this: the side effects are performed and the return sequence is discarded.
18:55	gfrlog	maybe that's why I like doseq better
18:56	Sushisource	To try to answer myself, if I wanted to parellelize this I'd probably need to use the Neo4j's REST api ro somesuch
18:56	Sushisource	Sounds like effort
18:57	zakwilson	doseq and dorun are the Right Thing if you don't need a return value. Not mingling side effects and things that return values is better style, so yeah, prefer doseq and dorun to doall for this.
18:57	Sushisource	Cool, good to know
18:57	zakwilson	You're actively using Neo4j for stuff. Good. Maybe you can tell me what I should read to learn more about graph databases and when I might want to use them.
18:58	Sushisource	Well, right now I'm actually using it for a DnD character helper, of all things
18:59	Sushisource	It parses in a whole damn lot of various feats/spells/etc/whatever
18:59	Sushisource	And makes links between things that have affects on other things
18:59	Sushisource	Then, if you want to make some particular spell or whatever the best it can possibly be, you do reverse traversal on things that reference it
19:00	Sushisource	And it saves you the time of wading through thousands of pages of books
19:00	zakwilson	I get the feeling a graph database might be a better fit than a relational database for a lot of applications that involve a bunch of things well... relating to each other. I just haven't seen a good intro to graph databases article.
19:00	Sushisource	Yeah, it really feels like that
19:00	Sushisource	I sat down and tried to do this with sqllite
19:00	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
19:00	Sushisource	And I was like "shit, this is impossible"
19:02	zakwilson	I'm building a pretty ordinary database-backed webapp and finding it really tedious to write a zillion joins for relationships like item belongs to user. I'm thinking about using clj-record, but ORM is an antipattern.
19:02	zakwilson	And clj-record is at least ORM-like, even if it isn't making classes.
19:02	ibdknox	zakwilson: store it as objects?
19:02	zakwilson	then it's hard to query
19:03	ibdknox	yeah, it's pretty easy to build your own indexes for things you want to query on
19:03	Sushisource	I really can't speak from much experience yet, because I've just got into it for this, but it really seems like a much more intuitive way to manage complex relationships and searching through them
19:04	Sushisource	My only complaint might be that the documentation is a little sparse
19:04	dnolen	Sushisource: btw, this sounds like a problem that's a good fit for core.logic.
19:04	zakwilson	The thought of using a document store instead of a relational DB crossed my mind, but there really are a bunch of separate entities that relate to each other. Relations make sense. Graphs might make sense if I understood them. Documents/objects really don't.
19:05	dnolen	Sushisource: you just load all your facts into memory and do your querying there, if you're feeling brave https://github.com/clojure/core.logic
19:05	ibdknox	zakwilson: fair enough, I completely agree if there are lots of relationships then it doesn't make sense
19:06	dnolen	Sushisource: basically you talking about an expert system, Prolog is great for building one quickly as long as your dataset can fit reasonably into memory.
19:07	zakwilson	But I think a graph DB might. I want to learn more about them without having to jump in head first, and google/wikipedia are failing me.
19:08	Sushisource	Cool suggestions. My only hesitation of doing something in memory is that there is quite a lot of text attached to this stuff
19:08	Raynes	zakwilson: http://github.com/flatland/jiraph
19:09	Sushisource	The other issue being that the information is parsed from plaintext, so I think my plan is to do it with one script that builds the graph, and another for searchign it
19:09	Raynes	zakwilson: http://jim.webber.name/2011/04/21/e2f48ace-7dba-4709-8600-f29da3491cb4.aspx is a fantastic introduction to graph databases.
19:10	zakwilson	Thanks.
19:10	zakwilson	(inc Raynes)
19:10	sexpbot	⟹ 5
19:13	danbell	wait does that work?
19:13	danbell	(inc zakwilson)
19:13	sexpbot	⟹ 1
19:13	danbell	for showing it to me
19:18	technomancy	hehe: (in-ns 'safe.module.helper)
19:18	technomancy	(def i (safe.account/get-id :mysql-id 337))
19:18	technomancy	(def h (query i "date:[0000-01-01T00:00:00Z TO 1990-01-01T00:00:00Z]"))
19:18	technomancy	(def h2 (query i "date:[2011-03-22T00:00:00Z TO 2011-03-22T23:59:59Z"))
19:18	technomancy	(def pfs (set (map :packfile-name (concat h h2))))
19:18	technomancy	(defn parse-packfile-blob-name [packfile-name]
19:18	technomancy	(let [[account-uuid _ pf] (.split packfile-name "/")
19:18	technomancy	coll-id (clojure.string/join "-" (butlast (.split pf "-")))
19:18	technomancy	chunk-id (last (.split pf "-"))]
19:18	technomancy	[account-uuid coll-id chunk-id]))
19:18	technomancy	(doseq [p pfs]
19:18	technomancy	(apply safe.import.indexing/download-and-index (parse-packfile-blob-name p)))
19:18	technomancy	dammit
19:19	technomancy	I meant to say https://github.com/jboner/akka/commit/554bb3eb293fe083dcc4fd0fcb8e0b23bd566e5b#L2R19
19:20	Raynes	technomancy: Paste moar code. MOAR
19:21	ibdknox	technomancy: wow...
19:21	clojurebot	technomancy is to blame for all failures
19:21	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
19:21	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
19:22	zakwilson	I recently updated leiningen. Now, when I run lein swank and try to create futures in the running program, I get java.util.concurrent.RejectedExecutionException
19:22	technomancy	I put some flood blocking stuff on ERC but I guess I didn't test it.
19:23	technomancy	hiredman: ANYWAY i think you will appreicate the github link
19:23	ibdknox	technomancy: lol that page is over 15gb
19:23	ibdknox	err
19:23	ibdknox	mb
19:23	hiredman	clojurebot: regale us with tales of scala
19:23	clojurebot	the scala compiler \| is \| <reply> see: http://harrah.github.com/browse/samples/compiler/scala/tools/nsc/typechecker/ConstantFolder.scala.html#65760
19:23	hiredman	clojurebot: tell me more about scala
19:23	clojurebot	{((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}
19:24	hiredman	clojurebot: is there anything else I should know about scala?
19:24	clojurebot	Scala often gets in the way when trying to write neat code -- seen in #scala
19:24	hiredman	I see
19:24	zakwilson	clojurebot: it seems you have some opinions on scala
19:24	clojurebot	scala is also<reply>"we are completely screwed on ==." -- seen in #scala
19:24	zakwilson	clojurebot: should I use scala?
19:24	clojurebot	the scala compiler \| is \| <reply> see: http://harrah.github.com/browse/samples/compiler/scala/tools/nsc/typechecker/ConstantFolder.scala.html#65760
19:24	hiredman	I should reall fix those factoids
19:26	jweiss_	any clojure libs out there for testing external apps? lazytest etc are really for testing clojure code. looking for a generic test runner
19:27	zakwilson	technomancy: can you tell me anything about lein swank and the above exception? I can't use futures, pmap and probably agents since upgrading leiningen.
19:27	hiredman	technomancy is feuding with the clojure runtime
19:28	hiredman	you may need to upgrade swank-clojure
19:28	technomancy	zakwilson: I just pushed out 1.3.2 this morning
19:28	technomancy	if you still have the problem then you are running into a bug that I cannot reproduce on my own machine =\
19:28	technomancy	clojurebot: agent thread pool?
19:28	clojurebot	the agent thread pool is kind of a problem in Clojure, see http://tech.puredanger.com/2010/06/08/clojure-agent-thread-pools/ and http://p.hagelb.org/shutdown-agents.jpg
19:29	technomancy	trying to work around a shortcoming of clojure and it's not going so well
19:29	zakwilson	[swank-clojure "1.3.2"] is not being found by lein deps
19:30	technomancy	hmm... let me look again
19:30	zakwilson	thanks
19:30	technomancy	hm; I hadn't regenerated the pom when I uploaded
19:31	technomancy	try again
19:32	zakwilson	That works now. Thanks.
19:32	zakwilson	(inc technomancy)
19:32	sexpbot	⟹ 13
19:33	technomancy	great
19:34	mdeboard``	technomancy: Earlier you asked me to add a println to compile/get-readable-form right before shutdown-agents is called. What should I be printing?
19:34	technomancy	mdeboard``: first try 1.3.2 and see if that fixes it
19:35	mdeboard``	clj 1.3.2?
19:35	technomancy	swank-clojure 1.3.2
19:38	mdeboard``	technomancy: I assume lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.2 will be sufficient? I don't need to uninstall the old one?
19:38	mdeboard``	s/assume/home
19:38	mdeboard``	hope*
19:39	technomancy	try it; if it doesn't work then try again with the old one deleted
19:39	technomancy	I'm not sure if the de-dupe goes by file modification time or by version number
19:43	mdeboard``	I actually needed to uninstall/reinstall lein anyway
19:45	mdeboard``	technomancy: :O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:45	mdeboard``	You beautiful bastard
19:45	mdeboard``	I am truly excite.
19:45	mdeboard``	technomancy, i am not disappoint
19:45	mdeboard``	in other words, it worked.
19:48	mdeboard``	(inc (for [x (technomancy amalloy)] x))
19:48	sexpbot	⟹ 1
19:48	mdeboard``	aw :(
19:48	amalloy	lol
19:48	amalloy	nobody's ever going to inc that user again
19:49	mdeboard``	,(inc (for [x (technomancy amalloy)] x))
19:49	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: technomancy in this context
19:50	amalloy	technomancy: want to apply yourself to me as a function, baby?
19:51	mdeboard``	,(inc (for [x (2 3)] x))
19:51	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
19:51	mdeboard``	fine
19:57	gfrlog	(inc (for [x (technomancy amalloy)] x))
19:57	sexpbot	⟹ 2
19:59	mdeboard``	is that even right
19:59	gfrlog	mdeboard``: it's incrementing the karma of a user called "(for [x (technomancy amalloy)] x)"
19:59	gfrlog	who hasn't shown up in #clojure too often lately
20:00	mdeboard``	lol, I mean, the logic
20:00	mdeboard``	notionally
20:00	gfrlog	well the fact that you have an unquoted list won't help
20:00	mdeboard``	ohright
20:00	amalloy	and inc'ing a list won't either
20:01	gfrlog	(doseq [x [technomancy amalloy]] (inc x)) is probably what you're wanting
20:01	mdeboard``	oic
20:01	gfrlog	in this fantasy-clojure world
20:01	mdeboard``	I'm having a clojure threesome in fantasy clojure world
20:01	gfrlog	I bet
20:02	mdeboard``	snuggled between two big soft parentheses
20:02	gfrlog	parentheses-pillows: worst lisp-gift ever?
20:05	amalloy	gfrlog: i'm super-sad that i can't find those anywhere
20:06	gfrlog	my wife has a body-pillow that could maybe be shaped as a paren
20:07	gfrlog	new project: ranking the ASCII punctuation marks by their value as a pillow-shape
20:08	gfrlog	amalloy: yeah googling for "ascii pillows" is quite disappointing
20:09	mdeboard``	should be googling for unicode pillows anyway
20:10	amalloy	i want one with "(" on it so nobody knows my secret love of parens
20:11	mdeboard``	amalloy: You're among friends, you can come out of the clojet. No one will even notice your lisp.
20:11	amalloy	or "( is #1 in my book"
20:13	gfrlog	parens are the path to the ultimate answer?
20:13	gfrlog	:/
20:14	amalloy	&(char 41)
20:14	sexpbot	⟹ \)
20:14	amalloy	&(char 42)
20:14	sexpbot	⟹ \*
20:21	mudge	hello, is it possible to call a macro from java?
20:22	gfrlog	why would you want to do that?
20:22	mudge	gfrlog: because my boss says I have to write in java but there's a clojure library I want to use in Java
20:22	mudge	gfrlog: and I am trying to call a clojure macro but I am getting a Wrong number of args error
20:23	gfrlog	what library is it?
20:23	Scriptor	mudge: clojure macros take in clojure data structures for their arguments, so make sure that's what you're passing it
20:23	mudge	gfrlog: so I am calling the clojure functions from with Java, but now I need to call a macro
20:23	hiredman	macros take to implicit args &form and &env
20:23	hiredman	two
20:23	hiredman	you can't really call a macro
20:24	hiredman	mudge: don't do that
20:24	hiredman	it won't be what you want
20:24	mudge	okay, well here is exactly what I am trying to do, I am trying to call prxml
20:24	mudge	from clojure.contrib.prxml
20:24	mudge	but clojure.contrib.prxml prints to standar out
20:24	mudge	but i want it to return a string
20:25	mudge	so normally you wrap prxml with with-out-str, which is a macro
20:25	mudge	so I am trying to figure out how to make prxml return a string in java
20:26	gfrlog	hmm
20:26	gfrlog	if you're not allowed to write an inch of clojure code
20:26	mudge	gfrlog: i find out prxml contructs xml is nicer than using Java DOM stuff
20:26	gfrlog	the first thing that comes to mind is pushing/popping thread bindings to set out to a string writer
20:27	Scriptor	would there be any way to set out using java?
20:27	Scriptor	^^
20:27	mudge	yea, anyway to set out ?
20:27	gfrlog	&(doc push-thread-bindings)
20:27	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! push-thread-bindings is bad!
20:28	gfrlog	wut?
20:28	gfrlog	(dec sexpbot)
20:28	sexpbot	⟹ -1
20:28	gfrlog	anyhow, I'm 96% sure push-thread-bindings and pop-thread-bindings will do the trick
20:29	mudge	gfrlog, i will take a look at it
20:29	gfrlog	mudge: the canonical example usage is the source for clojure.core/bindings
20:30	Scriptor	,(doc binding)
20:30	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol init-expr Creates new bindings for the (already-existing) vars, with the supplied initial values, executes the exprs in an implicit do, then re-establishes the bindings that existed before. The new bindings are made in parallel (unlike let); all init-exprs are evaluated before the vars are bound to their new values."
20:30	mudge	RT.var("clojure.contrib.prxml", "prxml").invoke("[:funny \"yes\"]") will call prxml, so just need to figure out how to set out
20:30	gfrlog	s/bindings/binding
20:30	sexpbot	<gfrlog> mudge: the canonical example usage is the source for clojure.core/binding
20:30	mudge	gfrlog: thanks, I'll check it out now
20:30	Scriptor	damn, binding is a macro too
20:30	mudge	is there a way to call macros from java?
20:31	gfrlog	Scriptor: yeah, that's why gotta push/pop manually. Presumably there could be an in-between function that's just like binding but takes a fn, but that's only helpful if these weird situations come up more often :)
20:32	gfrlog	it could be called clojure.core/binding*
20:32	hiredman	mudge: you can't "call" macros
20:32	Scriptor	mudge: you can always ask the mailing list, bigger audience there
20:32	Scriptor	(regarding the setting out part)
20:32	Scriptor	might be someone who's already done this
20:32	hiredman	when you use a macro it is expanded by clojure's compiler and compiled in place
20:33	gfrlog	in the best case, it would mean you'd have to write an eensy bit of clojure code ;-)
20:33	gfrlog	which would presumably get you fired
20:33	mudge	hiredman: what terminology should I use for invoking a macro?
20:33	amalloy	yeah, calling a macro from java is unlikely to be an action that makes you happy
20:33	hiredman	mudge: it's not a terminology thing, what you want to do is not possible
20:33	hiredman	mudge: use push and pop as people have suggested
20:34	mudge	yea, i don't want to get fired by actually writing any clojure but using libriaries in java is okay
20:34	mudge	hiredman: okay, thanks
20:34	gfrlog	dangit if this conversation goes on any longer I'll have to go write binding* myself.
20:34	amalloy	gfrlog: it's not very nice as a non-macro
20:35	gfrlog	amalloy: it couldn't just take some pairs and a fn?
20:35	amalloy	sure
20:35	amalloy	the need to take a fn is what's not very nice
20:35	gfrlog	which would be much nicer in weird-constraints-java-world
20:35	gfrlog	than pushing and popping
20:35	gfrlog	oh wait
20:35	gfrlog	I'd be writing it in clojure
20:36	Scriptor	mudge: you could make a case that you'd only need a tiny bit of clojure code (write it before-hand) and document it fully
20:36	gfrlog	which wouldn't do him any good
20:36	Scriptor	if it beats implementing the lib yourself
20:36	gfrlog	(defn call-macro [var & args] ...)
20:36	mudge	gfrlog: it's okay if you write it in clojure as long as I can call it from java
20:37	gfrlog	so you can use clojure code as long as you're not the author?
20:37	mudge	Scriptor: yes, thanks
20:37	amalloy	i think that if you tried to actually do that, you'd find that's not the rule :P
20:37	mudge	gfrlog: just can't use the clojure language, but I can use libraries in java
20:38	Scriptor	gfrlog: hmm, the boss might just want the jars or something, if he wrote the clojure that'd mean there'd be clojure source in the project
20:38	gfrlog	so I'd have to package it in a "library" for you?
20:38	Scriptor	which he doesn't want to have to find devs to maintain in the future
20:38	mudge	Scriptor: correct
20:39	gfrlog	I guess it's easy enough to "lein jar"
20:39	gfrlog	alright blastit now that we've gone through all this effort...
20:50	gfrlog	mudge: https://github.com/fredericksgary/binding-star
20:50	gfrlog	I put a jar in the downloads section if that's easier
20:51	mudge	thanks gfrlog!
20:52	gfrlog	mudge: you'll have to create a map with a var in it, but I imagine if you're mucking with all the RT stuff then you can probably figure that out
20:53	mudge	gfrlog: yea
20:54	mudge	gfrlog: i think i know how to use it, trying it
20:56	jst	\list
20:56	jst	oh, ffs
20:57	jst	Alright, I have a question about Clojure that bothers the hell out of me.
20:57	jst	Who's up to the challenge?
20:57	jcromartie	ok
20:57	amalloy	anyone?
20:57	clojurebot	Please do not ask if anyone uses, knows, is good with, can help you with <some program or library>. Instead, ask your real question and someone will answer if they can help.
20:58	amalloy	i think it's hilarious that anyone would think that depending on gfrlog's ten-second-to-write, never-going-to-be-maintained library is deemed better than writing two lines of clojure yourself, mudge
20:58	jst	Alright, why do the bindings in (let ...) need to come in form of a vector?
20:58	Scriptor	jst: it's not quite a vector
20:58	jcromartie	really, that's it?
20:58	amalloy	jst: the alternative being?
20:58	gfrlog	(inc amalloy)
20:58	sexpbot	⟹ 15
20:58	amalloy	Scriptor: yes it is
20:58	jst	(let (x 1) 1) for example
20:58	jst	A list
20:59	Scriptor	jst: ok, so it's a vector, but the syntax was chosen to visually separate the bindings from the actual code
20:59	amalloy	jst: to reduce the cognitive overload on parens
20:59	amalloy	so that (x 1) can (almost) always mean "i'm calling x as a function"
20:59	amalloy	rather than having to parse the surrounding code to decide what the parens mean this time
21:00	mudge	amalloy: yes, I think I am actually just going to write his clojure code in java to do the same thing
21:00	amalloy	but there's no technical reason
21:00	jcromartie	generally (fn-or-macro [bindings or arglist] ...)
21:00	mudge	amalloy: yes, in general it is dumb
21:00	amalloy	mudge: last was directed at jst
21:00	mudge	amalloy: ah, okay
21:00	jst	I'm just confused by all the different types of braces.
21:00	Scriptor	if I have a jar in my lib/ folder, how do I go about figuring out what to actually import?
21:00	amalloy	(defmacro cl-let [argvec & body] `(let ~(vec argvec) ~@body))
21:01	jcromartie	jst: fair enough... there are a lot in clojure
21:01	Scriptor	every combination I've tried so far has returned ClassNotFound
21:01	jcromartie	however almost all of them are just sugar
21:01	jst	But thanks! You, guys, helped.
21:02	gfrlog	mudge: and I'll probably delete that github repo the next time I'm reminded of its existence ;-)
21:02	Scriptor	gfrlog: remember bind?
21:02	Scriptor	* bind*
21:02	gfrlog	Scriptor: I have to forget it first
21:04	Scriptor	so, to add a little more detail to my question, I have netflix-java-client-2.1.2.jar under lib/, the project's name is clj-netflix
21:05	Scriptor	what symbol name would I have to use to :use/import it?
21:05	jst	\quit
21:05	jst	ffs
21:05	amalloy	Scriptor: you need to figure out what's in the jar. there's no global answer
21:05	mudge	gfrlog: okay, i got it
21:05	gfrlog	jar -tf
21:06	mudge	now I am wondering how to create a clojure map in java
21:06	amalloy	if the jar has a com.foo.netflix.Server class you want to use, you'll have to import that
21:06	gfrlog	mudge: I would try creating a java map first to see if it takes that
21:06	mudge	gfrlog, okay
21:07	gfrlog	else, the api on the clojure map classes might be easy enough
21:07	gfrlog	or wait
21:07	gfrlog	just call hash-map
21:07	gfrlog	,(hash-map (var inc) "wut")
21:07	clojurebot	{#'clojure.core/inc "wut"}
21:08	mudge	gfrlog, okay, thanks
21:08	gfrlog	I guess there should have been an alternate signature that takes a var, value, and fn, for the most common use case, but I refuse to edit that project any further :P
21:09	Scriptor	amalloy: no matter what the name of the class, it's prepended with my project's name, right?
21:09	Scriptor	like my-project.com.foo.netflix
21:09	amalloy	uh, no
21:10	gfrlog	Scriptor: not if it's in a java jar
21:10	mudge	gfrlog, that's fine, thanks
21:10	Scriptor	ah
21:10	gfrlog	Scriptor: you import by class name, like you do in java
21:11	Scriptor	"like you do in java" heh...about that
21:12	mudge	wait, can't I just do this to get the out variable: Var out = RT.var("clojure.core", "out");
21:12	gfrlog	probably
21:13	gfrlog	I've never used clojure from java, that's the only reason I hesitate
21:13	gfrlog	gonna just set it directly?
21:15	cemerick	technomancy: did I just see a github link where unicode arrows work in scala case clauses?
21:16	mudge	gfrlog: i don't know, when I call RT.var("clojure.contrib.prxml", "prxml").invoke("[:p \"data\"]") it does not print to standard out like it should so I am confused
21:19	amalloy	mudge: well that won't work anyway, because prxml wants a vector, not a string that looks kinda like a vector
21:21	mudge	hmm... now I am trying this: RT.var("clojure.core", "print").invoke("data to print")
21:21	mudge	but it doesn't go to standard out
21:21	amalloy	println
21:21	mudge	somehow I need to connect clojure with standard out, connect out with System.out
21:21	amalloy	print doesn't flush the buffer
21:21	Scriptor	amalloy, gfrlog: thanks guys!
21:22	mudge	amalloy: is there a clojure function that flushes the buffer?
21:22	gfrlog	Scriptor: yessir
21:23	gfrlog	I think you can call .flush on out
21:23	amalloy	println
21:23	amalloy	or flush
21:23	amalloy	or .flush
21:23	cemerick	OMG, it's true: http://scala-programming-language.1934581.n4.nabble.com/More-unicode-alternatives-for-ASCII-operators-td2008146.html
21:23	cemerick	old news, but I had no idea
21:25	mudge	amalloy, I'll try flush
21:25	pdk	unicode icons for set operations would be neat
21:25	pdk	doesn't forth already use special symbols for those sorts of ops
21:26	cemerick	Neat, yet entirely impractical.
21:26	mudge	amalloy: flush worked!!!!!!!!!
21:26	amalloy	!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:26	gfrlog	go potty-training
21:27	mudge	amalloy: haha
21:27	mudge	so now I will try prxml with flushing
21:30	mudge	prxml works goes to standard out!!!!! but it expects a vector ooop!
21:33	gfrlog	clojure from java: worse than normal-java?
21:34	chouser	that's if the Clojure is doing nothing to help.
21:35	chouser	It's fairly easy to write Clojure that allows completely clean, idiomatic Java to work with it.
21:36	chouser	mudge: did you figure out how to bind out to what you want?
21:36	mudge	yes, I think it is best if I wrote a Clojure utility library and use those from Java
21:36	gfrlog	mudge: well good luck finding a new job ;-)
21:37	mudge	gfrlog, yes, i probably won't do it because of that
21:37	mudge	i probably will find another job after my current project
21:37	mudge	just want to finish my current project
21:39	mudge	chouser: i think that I can do it but I haven't done it
21:39	mudge	I want to use prxml in java but I realized I need to make vectors in java
21:39	mudge	and I am not sure if it is worth it
21:39	edw`	Anyone here used Noir with Json POST requests?
21:40	amalloy	RT.var("clojure.core", "eval").invoke(RT.var("clojure.core", "read").invoke("(prxml [:a \"data\"])")); // no clojure, just java!
21:42	mudge	amalloy: thanks, I think I can use "eval" to parse the vector string literals into real vectors for prxml --- so I can still use the nice clojure vector syntax for prxml
21:42	jweiss_	trying to make a component of an assert macro that takes a form and returns the form with the locally bound vars replaced with their values. thought a zipper might help, is there a zipper out there that walks clojure expressions?
21:43	jweiss_	seq-zip doesn't descend into vector binding forms for instance
21:43	amalloy	jweiss_: bindings are gonna kill you anyway
21:43	jweiss_	amalloy: what do you mean?
21:43	amalloy	(let [x 1] (assert (= 1 (let [x 5] x))))
21:44	amalloy	x will be 1 in the &env that assert gets passed
21:44	jweiss_	amalloy: ah well, this is just for informational logging, doesn't have to be perfect
21:44	amalloy	then just use postwalk-replace
21:44	jweiss_	k
21:45	chouser	amalloy: why not stick the binding in the clojure string along with the prxml and vector literals?
21:45	gfrlog	and that's how you call a macro from java
21:46	chouser	you might consider writing some Clojure code to make it all more palatable from Java
21:47	amalloy	chouser: sure, once you're going with read and eval, you might as well write the whole thing in clojure
21:47	chouser	wait, this is all going to suck
21:47	amalloy	but this isn't really my good suggestion
21:47	chouser	yeah, you'll have a giant string (with clumsily escaped double-quotes, probably) for your literal maps and vectors
21:48	chouser	you'd be much better off with some kind of fluid builder API in Java, I think, than trying to use prxml
21:48	gfrlog	chouser: hash-map and vector would be decent, wouldn't they?
21:48	mudge	I like the idea of just using eval for the literal vectors and maps
21:48	chouser	or better yet, write your code in Clojure and compile it ahead of time.
21:48	amalloy	augh if i'd known you would like the suggestion i never would have made it
21:49	amalloy	it is a terrible idea
21:49	mudge	chouser: the reason I don't just write in clojure is because my boss wants me to write in java
21:50	amalloy	then he won't take kindly to "clojure encased in java strings"
21:50	mudge	but I could use clojure and clojure.contrib as java libraries
21:50	amalloy	it has all the disadvantages of clojure and none of the advantages
21:50	gfrlog	amalloy: that's about what I was thinking when I said "worse than normal-java"
21:50	mudge	amalloy: that's why I just like the idea of using eval for vectors
21:50	mudge	or maybe for maps too
21:50	gfrlog	mudge: call the vector function?
21:51	gfrlog	,(vector :foo :foo :foo :foo)
21:51	clojurebot	[:foo :foo :foo :foo]
21:51	mudge	gfrlog: oh yea, good idea
21:51	amalloy	seriously whatever java api you want to use will be easier than this
21:51	gfrlog	you could even write yourself a helper function so your java code is vector(hashmap(...) ....)
22:05	mudge	when i write RT.var("clojure.core", "eval").invoke(RT.var("clojure.core", "read").invoke("(prxml [:a \"data\"])"));
22:06	mudge	I get java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.io.PushbackReader
22:12	mudge	ah, amalloy, read-string works: RT.var("clojure.core", "eval").invoke(RT.var("clojure.core", "read-string").invoke("(clojure.contrib.prxml/prxml [:a \"data\"])")); // no clojure, just java!
22:15	amalloy	if that code ever makes it into production i will kill myself for suggesting it. no pressure
22:15	amalloy	anyway, i'm headed home. best of luck, i guess
22:16	cemerick	someone needs to talk me down from posting a Scala linkbait post
22:17	cemerick	that is, it's entirely unproductive :-( ; but, I don't think I can help myself
22:18	Scriptor	wasn't there a clojure-lounge or something a while back?
22:19	cemerick	There's #clojure-casual, but it's fundamentally unpopulated.
22:22	Scriptor	cemerick: post it! I've found Scala reading to be pretty interesting
22:22	Scriptor	some stuff can still be relevant to clojure
22:38	hiredman	,scala {((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}
22:38	clojurebot	Any = 1
22:39	Sushisource	So, if I want to apply my function that takes two parameters to every combination of two items in a sequence, what's the pretty way to do that?
22:42	cemerick	hiredman: can't believe you sullied clojurebot like that
22:43	jhickner	hi all, i have a question about idiomatic clojure when dealing with app state
22:43	jhickner	is it good form to use a ref or atom even when you don't need concurrency? vs just def'ing repeatedly?
22:44	hiredman	the untyped λ calculus is the untyped λ calculus
22:46	Scriptor	jhickner: if you find yourself def'ing repeatedly why not use let?
22:47	hiredman	def repeatedly is always wrong
22:48	jhickner	so if you need to alter something, you should use a ref or an atom even if it's single threaded?
22:48	hiredman	depends
22:48	jhickner	@Scriptor: it's not localized to just one function, it's a state object that's used in a few places
22:48	amalloy	Sushisource: depends what you mean by "every combination"
22:48	hiredman	do you reallt need to alter something?
22:49	jhickner	it's a list of connected clients (to an aleph websocket server) and what group they're part of
22:50	jhickner	i use a map of group ids to vectors of aleph channels to do things like send messages to a particular group
22:50	tomoj	I use an atom for that
22:51	tomoj	though I haven't thought about it much
22:51	jhickner	yeah I don't know if there's a better way. an atom makes more sense than a ref though I agree
22:52	amalloy	Sushisource: ie, what would (my-cool-function + [1 2 3 4]) return? [3 7]? [4 5 5 6]?
22:54	jhickner	ok I think I'll use an atom for now. thanks guys
23:13	chrissbx	Is there another way than using a fn to bind multiple variables to values "in parallel", unlike the sequential way "let" does it?
23:14	amalloy	&(let [[x y] [1 2]] (+ x y))
23:14	sexpbot	⟹ 3
23:14	chrissbx	ah
23:14	chrissbx	good point
23:15	chrissbx	I guess I should ask whether that's slower, though, i.e. heap-allocating a vector.
23:15	amalloy	clojurebot: let* is ##(let [[x y] [1 2]] (+ x y))
23:15	sexpbot	⟹ 3
23:15	clojurebot	Ok.
23:15	chrissbx	(but I guess an fn would do that, too)
23:16	tomoj	clojurebot: let*?
23:16	clojurebot	let* is ##(let [[x y] [1 2]] (+ x y))
23:16	sexpbot	⟹ 3
23:16	tomoj	:D
23:16	chrissbx	Note that these let and let* are the other way around in Scheme.
23:16	amalloy	chrissbx: yeah, i know
23:16	amalloy	but when someone asks about it they always mention let*
23:17	chrissbx	I see
23:18	chrissbx	Now, actually the Scheme let is like let* and unlike a lambda, and unlike your solution, in that variable and expressions are together.
23:18	chrissbx	)Just nitpicking :)
23:18	chrissbx	(
23:18	amalloy	so write a macro
23:21	chrissbx	Hm. I'm translating Scheme to Clojure; such a macro would be easy for my translation process, but not sure people would like that.
23:23	chrissbx	(I could turn a Scheme let into a Clojure let as long as it doesn't use previous left-side variable names on the right side. Looses the meaning of "you (human reader) don't need to consider previous variables on the left when reading the expressions on the right",
23:24	chrissbx	but Clojurians would feel at home.)
23:31	Scriptor	chrissbx: as in, a scheme->clojure converter?
23:33	chrissbx	Scriptor: yes
23:33	jcromartie	chrissbx: actually that left-right let issue is not an issues
23:33	jcromartie	not an issue
23:34	Scriptor	chrissbx: cool, what're you using for parsing?
23:34	jcromartie	,(let [x 1 y x z y] z)
23:34	clojurebot	1
23:34	Scriptor	well, parsing and lexing
23:34	amalloy	jcromartie: yes it is?
23:34	chrissbx	jcromartie: that's Scheme let*; I'm missing something for Scheme let
23:34	jcromartie	OK maybe I misunderstood
23:35	chrissbx	Scriptor: I'm writing it in Scheme, so I'm just using the parser of the Scheme system.
23:35	amalloy	eg, scheme code might look like (let ((x 1)) (let ((x 2) (y x)) y)) and expect y to be 1
23:35	Scriptor	ah, got it
23:36	jcromartie	really? I would not expect that
23:37	jcromartie	I've been away from Dr(Racket\|Scheme) for a while
23:37	amalloy	jcromartie: that's because you're not writing scheme, apparently :P
23:37	jcromartie	yup
23:37	jcromartie	never more than a few toy programs
23:41	amalloy	btw chrissbx, did i get the let syntax right? i only used a non-clojure lisp for a couple weeks
23:42	chrissbx	yes, it's correct
23:44	chrissbx	BTW is there some pretty-printer in Clojure that takes a Clojure s-expr and formats it nicely? (not just reindentationm, but line wrapping as well, with good consideration of the special forms)
23:45	chrissbx	(or, takes a file with Clojure code all in one line, and reformats it)
23:45	amalloy	&(doc clojure.pprint/pprint)
23:45	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure.pprint/pprint in this context
23:46	amalloy	it takes some finagling, but it has some special-form support if you ask nicely, and pluggability for others you might care about
23:46	chrissbx	ok