#clojure – 2011-07-05

2011-07-05

00:00	seancorfield	the new clojure contrib libs work with 1.2
00:00	amalloy	seancorfield: i know some of them do, but i'm a little surprised to hear that all of them do
00:01	seancorfield	it's a requirement: new contrib must support clojure 1.2
00:01	amalloy	cool
00:01	semperos	yeah, I had read that some featured compatibility with both, forgotten frankly
00:01	seancorfield	i didn't know until i fell foul of it with c.j.j and accidentally made it 1.3 only :(
00:01	seancorfield	that nice mr bedra corrected me :)
00:02	glitch83	Hey everyone - I've got a quick test I've been trying to perform with clojure - I want to save a lambda for use later
00:02	glitch83	I used the readObject / writeObject on the lambda to save it out but when I load it back in - it gives me a NO_SOURCE exception
00:02	sean_corfield	time to move to the TV room and kick back
00:02	glitch83	any thoughts?
00:03	semperos	sean_corfield: enjoy, thanks for your feedback
00:03	technomancy	glitch83: lambdas aren't serializable by default
00:03	technomancy	you can cheat with this:
00:03	technomancy	clojurebot: serializable-fn
00:03	clojurebot	serializable-fn is a hack for preserving source of a compiled function: https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
00:04	technomancy	that's somewhat half-baked though
00:04	glitch83	hm yeah I have thought about the limitations - it's not an easy problem but let me give this a shot
00:06	glitch83	This looks sufficient enough for some basics - now I'm thinking how to dynamically load clj files - I assume (load-file <filename>) ?
00:07	technomancy	glitch83: yup
00:07	technomancy	you shouldn't use that for your project's source, but for arbitrary files on disk it's fine
00:07	glitch83	sweet - I think this is enough :-) thanks all!
00:09	schnorrer	hi, has anyone had troubles with "lein ring server" and Unicode on web pages (lots of "????????")?
00:09	schnorrer	a war generated with "lein ring war" works fine if deployed on a 'standalone' jetty
00:11	schnorrer	looks like it has something to do with misconfiguration of the embedded jetty, but I have no idea how to fix it
00:12	tomoj	the charset is UTF-8 in both cases?
00:12	tomoj	but one has garbage that's not actually utf-8?
00:12	schnorrer	well, the data pulled from DB are definitely utf-8
00:12	tomoj	I mean in the http response
00:13	schnorrer	ah, yes
00:13	tomoj	no clue then :(
00:13	schnorrer	sighs
00:13	tomoj	I don't think I've ever had any of that NOT use utf-8 without me asking
00:15	hiredman	MacRoman is innocent
00:15	technomancy	you're getting him confused with Bill Stickers
00:15	technomancy	http://www.snapbuzz.com/images/resized/Bill_Stickers_is_innocent6956.jpg
00:21	schnorrer	tomoj: oh, my bad :( 'ring server' indeed returns ISO-8859-1 charset
00:22	schnorrer	how can I explicitly set the charset anyway?
00:23	amalloy	schnorrer: add a Content-Encoding header?
00:23	amalloy	though i'd guess utf8 is the default anyway
00:25	tomoj	I think you want to add '; charset=utf-8' to the end of your content-type header
00:25	schnorrer	amalloy: somehow it's not
00:29	schnorrer	nope, seems not working: I'm still getting a page with <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" /> but with ISO-8859-1 in the header
00:30	tomoj	are you rendering out that meta tag?
00:30	tomoj	or actually setting the content-type header in your ring response, which somehow comes out as a meta tag instead of a header..?
00:30	schnorrer	wait
00:31	schnorrer	I'm rendering it
00:31	schnorrer	with hiccup's [:meta {:http-equiv "Content-Type" :content "text/html; charset=UTF-8"}]
00:31	schnorrer	unsurprisingly, it doesn't work
00:32	amalloy	ew. don't add http-equiv tags if you control the http transport
00:34	tomoj	schnorrer: do you just return a string now?
00:35	tomoj	like, maybe you just the output from hiccup directly to ring?
00:35	tomoj	s/just the/just return the/
00:36	schnorrer	tomoj: I return hiccup output to ring
00:37	tomoj	see hello world in ring readme
00:37	schnorrer	not directly though (via compojure routes)
00:37	tomoj	for example of map to return with explicit http headers
00:38	schnorrer	tomoj: uh-huh, got it
00:39	tomoj	hmm.. is being able to return a string something compojure adds or is it in ring?
00:39	tomoj	if in ring, is it a middleware that converts strings to response maps, I wonder..?
00:42	amalloy	tomoj: i think it's probably compojure
00:43	amalloy	looks like it's in compojure.reponse$Renderable, at first glance
00:44	tomoj	what is that $
00:44	tomoj	oh found it
00:44	tomoj	good
00:44	amalloy	well, i meant to imply an inner class, but i think that was a wrong implication
00:45	tomoj	kinda bothered me that that would be added to all ring handlers by default when it should be a middleware
00:45	amalloy	yes. given ring's minimalistic approach it would be very surprising if it included that
00:45	schnorrer	speaking of compojure, the most straightforward way to set the response header I see is to wrap the (defroutes) handler in a middleware, right?
00:46	amalloy	schnorrer: yeah, just squeeze a middleware in there somewhere
00:46	tomoj	see ring.middleware.content-type/wrap-content-type
00:47	tomoj	eh
00:47	amalloy	you can't wrap the (defroutes) form, but you can wrap the var it produces, or (def my-rountes (wrap-content-type ... (routes ...)))
00:47	tomoj	wrap-content-type doesn't add the charset bit, though, does it?
00:48	amalloy	no, you can't use the one from ring for that. it's only intended for serving static files
00:48	tomoj	oh you need the extension
00:49	amalloy	yeah
00:49	tomoj	what would it do, just add charset to specific detected content types?
00:50	tomoj	like some other middleware sets text/html, then something notices it and adds utf-8? or you just special case wrap text/html+utf-8
00:51	amalloy	too many pronouns. none of those "it"s are clearly bound
00:51	tomoj	first it is a hypothetical middleware to add utf-8 charset
00:51	amalloy	k
00:51	tomoj	second it is text/html in :headers->"Content-Type"
00:52	amalloy	i'd probably special-case-wrap
00:52	amalloy	but that may not be a good solution shrug
00:58	schnorrer	I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to set embedded's jetty defaults, but the middleware workaround is fine too
00:58	schnorrer	thank you guys
01:07	amalloy	schnorrer: probably a good idea to use the middleware anyway rather than trying to configure jetty
01:08	amalloy	you might want to deploy on tomcat sometime, for example
01:14	schnorrer	amalloy: most likely, but in this case I'd rather choose the less invasive way
04:26	schasi	Are there latex templates for clojure presentations? :D
04:27	hiredman	( ) you can use these parens
05:13	Vinzent	Will clojure.lang.IKeywordLookup be turned into a protocol in clojure 1.3?
05:16	clgv	Vinzent: why do you ask? you can implement java interfaces within clojure easily as well
05:20	Vinzent	clgv, I have java classes which I can't inherit, so If IKeywordLookup was a protocol, it'd be much easier
05:21	clgv	Vinzent: that conclusion is not clear to me. you have a concrete example why it would be easier? (protocol case vs interface case)
05:23	Vinzent	clgv, I thought with interface I have to build proxy classes, am I wrong? And with protocols I can just extend it on the existing type
05:24	clgv	you can also implement interfaces in defrecord or deftype.
05:25	clgv	I enhanced one of my deftypes to support metadata by implementing withMeta and meta from clojure.lang.IObj
05:26	Vinzent	clgv, no, I need to make keyword lookup support in existing java classes
05:27	clgv	Vinzent: so you have an existing java class that the evil programmer made final and you want it to implement IKeywordLookup?
05:27	Vinzent	clgv, exactly
05:27	clgv	Vinzent: well, IKeywordLookup being a protocol wouldnt change that much afaik
05:28	bsteuber	clgv: yes it would :)
05:29	Vinzent	clgv, why? I'd just write (extend-protocol IKeywordLookup MyClass ...) and that'll do the job
05:29	clgv	ah ok, so there is clojure dispatch via defprotocol in place then. point taken
05:30	bsteuber	Vinzent: what I did in a similar case was write my own get and set multumethods that work with keywords and use reflection to call java getters/setters per default
05:31	Vinzent	bsteuber, so you was writing (get Bean :value)?
05:32	bsteuber	yes, but most of the time I need setters anyways
05:32	bsteuber	it#
05:32	bsteuber	s for a swing wrapper
05:33	clgv	Vinzent: is there more than one class that you need to support IKeywordLookup? if not proxy is not that worse as solution for now
05:33	clgv	s/worse/bad/
05:33	sexpbot	<clgv> Vinzent: is there more than one class that you need to support IKeywordLookup? if not proxy is not that bad as solution for now
05:33	bsteuber	so I made a function make that can be called like (make JButton :text "Foo" :on-click #(bar))
05:34	Vinzent	bsteuber, ok, I'm writing SWT wrapper :) but (get ...) thing isn't much better that (.getValue ...) and non-idiomatic anyway
05:34	bsteuber	^^
05:34	bsteuber	yes, true
05:34	bsteuber	first I used proxies to implement IDeref
05:35	bsteuber	that looks much nicer, but I ran into weird bytecode incompability issues on some platforms
05:35	Vinzent	clgv, yes, there is a huge amount of classes...
05:35	clgv	Vinzent: do they share a a common interface that is used for the lookup?
05:37	Vinzent	bsteuber, deref? and what it looks like? @(element :value)?
05:38	bsteuber	more like @my-combo-box which gives the selected value
05:38	bsteuber	but of course sometimes there's more than one "value" connected to a widget"
05:38	Vinzent	clgv, hm, I don't think so, but let me sure...
05:40	Vinzent	bsteuber, oh, got it. But anyway it's very handy for such special cases, I need to implement it also!
05:40	bsteuber	^^
05:40	bsteuber	but actually I think IDeref isn't meant to be implemented by "users"
05:41	bsteuber	because it implies some concurrency guarantees
05:41	bsteuber	I guess another, cumbersome thing you could do
05:41	bsteuber	would be using one defrecord per class you want to wrap
05:42	bsteuber	offering the clojure-interface and holding the actual widget
05:42	bsteuber	of course you'll need heavy macrology..
05:42	bsteuber	and reflection
05:43	bsteuber	well maybe deftype, as you need your own ILookup implementation
05:44	Vinzent	Looks like this is the only way...
05:48	bsteuber	or you could fork clojure and make ILookup etc. protocols xD
05:48	bsteuber	maybe I would even use your version :)
05:54	Vinzent	That could be more elegant solution :) But I believe there is some serious difficulties that prevented Rich to do it himself
05:56	peteriserins	if I have a list as a string, say, "(a\n(b (c d)))", can I obtain a representation in clojure?
05:56	tomoj	$findfn "(a\n(b (c d)))" '(a (b (c d)))
05:56	sexpbot	[clojure.core/read-string]
05:57	peteriserins	thanks
06:13	bsteuber	Vinzent: I believe the main reason is performance - like for almost everything that happens or doesn't happen to clojure these days
06:16	Vinzent	bsteuber, but protocols have nearly the same perfomance characteristics as interfaces, isn't it?
06:18	Vinzent	well, maybe not "nearly the same", but still good. And anyway a little perfomance penalty is a reasonable fee for the capabilities of protocols
06:18	bsteuber	I think some hotspot inlining doesn't kick in or so, but I really don'T have a clue how big the difference is
06:20	bsteuber	but one should think that what's good enough for clojure libraries should be good enough for the clojure API, too
06:20	schnorrer	tomoj: hmm, character encoding is set explicitly to UTF-8 in ring.util.servlet (https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj#L119) which, as far as I can see, is not the case with ring.jetty.adapter
06:21	schnorrer	this could explain the weird behavior duality
06:21	schnorrer	ring hello world app screws up unicode, too
06:22	schnorrer	seemingly for the same reason
06:22	Vinzent	yeah, that's true
06:34	clgv	hmm got the same "strange behavior" again. after doing a "clean project" I get reflection warnings that I did not have before (even from some dependencies). I did not manually set warn-on-reflection in any of my sources. I had this a while ago. Then it didn't happen anymore until now.
06:35	clgv	"clean project" is the one from eclipse and should only delete the content of bin folders. lein deps is not called
06:44	peteriserins	$findfn "([ ])" '("[" "]")
06:44	sexpbot	[]
07:06	peteriserins	How to put quotes around all [^ ()]+ in a string?
07:10	peteriserins	nevermind, I think (.replaceAll (re-matcher #"([^ ()]+)" "(This is a (test))") "\"$0\"") does the trick
07:10	clgv	lets check: ##(.replaceAll (re-matcher #"([^ ()]+)" "(This is a (test))") "\"$0\"")
07:10	sexpbot	⟹ "(\"This\" \"is\" \"a\" (\"test\"))"
07:11	bsteuber	,(clojure.string/replace "([])" #"[^()]" #(str "\"" % "\""))
07:11	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string
07:11	bsteuber	,(require 'clojure.string)
07:11	clojurebot	nil
07:11	bsteuber	,(clojure.string/replace "([])" #"[^()]" #(str "\"" % "\""))
07:11	clojurebot	"(\"[\"\"]\")"
07:12	bsteuber	ah the + is missing
07:13	bsteuber	but I guess clojure.string/replace is more idiomatic than using Java
07:15	peteriserins	actually the regex needs fixing. [^()\s] I suppose
07:16	peteriserins	(with the +)
07:24	peteriserins	how to properly include the replace function?
07:25	peteriserins	I am using (:use [clojure.string :only (replace)]))
07:25	peteriserins	in my ns declaration
07:26	peteriserins	it gives me an illegal state exception as I reload it in the repl
07:28	clgv	peteriserins: you might use (:require [clojure.string :as str]) and the use (str/replace ...)
07:28	bsteuber	(:use [clojure.string :only [replace]])
07:28	bsteuber	so square brackets
07:29	bsteuber	of course, require is possible, too
07:29	clgv	bsteuber: uh! what do these square brackets change concerned with :only?
07:30	clgv	I only knew the list version
07:31	bsteuber	clgv: hmm, doesn't seem to make a difference at all
07:31	clgv	bsteuber: lol. k;)
07:31	bsteuber	but in general, always use () when the first element of the list is special
07:31	bsteuber	and [] if all are "same"
07:31	bsteuber	so :only (foo bar) is bad style
07:32	ejackson	bsteuber: ha! that's a nice heuristic, thanks.
07:32	bsteuber	as well as (:use [clojure repl string]) - here "clojure" is special
07:33	bsteuber	so always write (:use (clojure repl string))
07:33	clgv	bsteuber: yes thats a different semantic. didn know it was supported until some weeks ago
07:35	clgv	bsteuber: but I wouldnt take that as example for the heuristic since it's contract for the :use form: the first one is specifying full namespaces and the second one specifies a namespace prefix under which the following "partial" namespaces are found
07:40	bsteuber	^^
07:40	bsteuber	clgv: I don't understand where the contradiction is
07:41	bsteuber	:use would allow both [] and () for this, but () is more idiomatic due to the heuristics
07:41	clgv	bsteuber: the semantic of (:use [clojure repl string]) is already defined. so the user has no choice there. the one implementing :use/use had the choice though ;)
07:42	bsteuber	but :use defines the same semantics for () and [], so I do have a choice
07:43	clgv	bsteuber: oh right. my error. I wouldnt allow it, if I defined :use
07:44	clgv	in this case I would enforce the "() vs []" rule to be able to give more specific errors
07:45	bsteuber	yes, me too :)
07:45	clgv	I assumed they did so ;)
07:47	bsteuber	peteriserins: btw, the illegalstateexception occurs when you already use'd the exact same var from your namespace
08:09	peteriserins	bsteuber: what I am doing is, I am using a file and the REPL
08:09	peteriserins	bsteuber: and I wrote a (reload) function to load-the-appropriate-file
08:12	bsteuber	peteriserins: so probably restarting the repl will get rid of the problem
08:13	bsteuber	huh, I can't call future when using leiningen 1.6.0
08:13	bsteuber	always throws a RejectedExecutionException
08:13	peteriserins	bsteuber: it doesn't
08:14	bsteuber	did anyone else try lein 1.6.0 yet?
08:17	bsteuber	peteriserins: maybe you should switch to an ide instead of loading files yourself from the repl
08:17	bsteuber	not sure how to do this correctly
08:18	peteriserins	bsteuber: I'm using Vim
08:18	bsteuber	ah good
08:18	bsteuber	though I'm more an emacs guy :)
08:28	clgv	bsteuber: huh? I just considered upgrading lein... maybe I should wait a bit... :/
08:29	bsteuber	clgv: well, as long as noone confirms the same problem, it could be just some weirdness on my machine
08:29	clgv	I don't dare to try to confirm it ;)
08:29	bsteuber	though java -jar clojure-1.2.1.jar works fine
08:29	bsteuber	^^
08:32	clgv	did anyone try a clojure.walk-like implementation using multimethods?
09:14	bsteuber	clgv: I now downgraded to lein 1.5.2 and it works fine again
09:14	bsteuber	so probably good to be careful
09:16	bsteuber	did that by symlinking to my lein checkout of tag 1.5.2
09:16	clgv	ok, I didn't read of any improvement that encourages me to upgrade anyway. I just wanted to do it for maintenance ;)
09:17	bsteuber	I like the user.clj support for auto-using clojure.repl and clojure.java.javadoc in my user-ns
09:17	bsteuber	as I do that all the time
09:31	clgv	you use lein repl?
09:38	bsteuber	no usally swank
09:40	clgv	hmm how do you profit from the user.clj then?
09:46	jcromartie	It's sad that "build ___ with ZERO code!" is considered a great selling point in the .NET world
09:46	jcromartie	I rather like to code...
09:48	bsteuber	clgv: slime-connect also puts me in the user namespace
09:49	clgv	jcromartie: you mean click&drag GUIs?
09:49	mlimotte	jcromartie: or complicated config files, which are like learning a new language
09:52	clgv	mlimotte: you mean XAML? that's in fact another language ;)
09:52	clgv	mlimotte: probably not turing complete, though ;)
09:57	jcromartie	mostly the drag-and-derp variety
09:58	clgv	jcromartie: well you can only sell it to managers with that. real developers know that there is no such thing as "zero code" for building software ;)
10:01	jcromartie	also WTF is this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6558083/best-way-to-convert-clojure-source-to-java-source-automatically
10:01	jcromartie	looks like someone used Clojure at work and now the boss needs to know how to turn it into Java
10:01	ejackson	regression
10:02	clgv	we can tell him that it's simple: just use a java decompiler :D
10:02	clgv	;)
10:03	ejackson	how about a 1 word answer to go the with the zero code answer: "don't".
10:04	clgv	ejackson: that's two words counting strictly ;)
10:04	jcromartie	ejackson: perfect answer
10:04	ejackson	:)
10:05	jcromartie	OK here's one more point for favoring "data" over "objects"
10:06	jcromartie	in this .NET reporting library ("build reports with ZERO code!") you can't store a web app's session data outside of the web app process itself
10:06	jcromartie	i.e. to a database or filesystem or another process
10:07	clgv	for real?
10:07	jcromartie	because each object in the session needs to be specifically marked as serializable at compile time
10:07	jcromartie	and even if it's just a simple collection type, it can't just be simply serialized
10:09	jcromartie	now if only it was just a hash map
10:12	ejackson	crazy talk
10:15	jcromartie	OOP says "you don't have to worry about the implementation"
10:15	jcromartie	but I do
10:15	jcromartie	because your stupid implementation broke my app
10:16	clgv	jcromartie: well I am pretty sure you do stupid implementations with and without OOP ;)
10:17	jcromartie	of course
10:17	jcromartie	but you know what I mean
10:17	clgv	I have a glimpse ;)
10:22	jcromartie	and by "your" implementation I mean third party library vendors
10:22	clgv	yes, I also meant "them" with "you".
10:23	clgv	sometimes english is really imprecise
10:52	cemerick	feedback and critiques most welcome: http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
10:54	hugod	cemerick: gen-class can't define fields
10:56	cemerick	hugod: true enough; you're saying that should be noted as a key decision point?
10:57	bsteuber	cemerick: maybe you might want to clarify "new methods" a little
10:57	bsteuber	like "methods not in implemented interfaces"
10:57	cemerick	that is, there are lots of subtle issues that might throw one towards using gen-class, or one of defrecord v. deftype — trying to account for them all would result in quite the bird's nest of a flowchart
10:59	hugod	not sure - just pointing it out
10:59	hugod	also the flow seems to prefer gen-class over def-type for aot - is that intentional?
10:59	cemerick	bsteuber: yeah, I'm not happy with that wording either
11:01	cemerick	hugod: of course :-)
11:02	dnolen	cemerick: I note that you don't mention a plain map with :type metadata
11:02	hugod	cemerick: why? deftype is a lot easier to read (imho), and you can define multiple types in a single ns…
11:02	clgv	cemerick: is extending from a base class an important aspect for you? then I would ask it as first question instead of dispatching two times with this question
11:03	cemerick	dnolen: yeah, fogus just tagged me with that on twitter
11:04	cemerick	I was coming at this from a section in the book talking about interop, thus the class-generating-forms bias.
11:04	dnolen	cemerick: I also don't really like the fact that the flowchart puts class/type together. deftype/record are not about interop.
11:05	hugod	my current use case would like to extend a base class, but can't because I need to specify fields for interop, so have to use deftype
11:06	dnolen	cemerick: flowchart would perhaps better titled "I need interop, now what?" vs "type/class" distinction.
11:07	cemerick	hugod: My "of course" was in response to your "just pointing it out" :-)
11:07	cemerick	hugod: but no, not intentional
11:08	cemerick	The interop state of mind has obviously tinged the whole endeavor.
11:08	cemerick	clgv: good point
11:09	cemerick	Though, if I invert it, then I'll be asking "do you need a named class" twice
11:11	clgv	cemerick: yeah, you have to decide what's more important. I vote for "exntending a base class" ;)
11:12	bsteuber	clgv: hm I'd ask for anonymous first - just because reify and proxy seem closer to each other than the rest
11:13	bsteuber	well just a matter of taste anyways :)
11:15	clgv	bsteuber: to show similarity ("being close") I would use something else for visualization. I would only ask what is more important for the developer.
11:16	clgv	I guess an objective criterion would be to minimize the average number of question until a decision is made
11:40	cemerick	dnolen: re: "deftype/record are not about interop": they are all about defining a host type, as is reify.
11:42	dnolen	cemerick: "interop" means (to me) coordinating between Java and Clojure. deftype/record/protocols are not about that at all.
11:44	cemerick	yeah, we're just into semantics there :-)
11:47	dnolen	cemerick: "The intent is that, unless interop forces one to go beyond their circumscribed scope, one need not leave Clojure to get the highest-performing data structures possible on the platform." http://clojure.org/datatypes
11:49	hugod	dnolen: I couldn't see any published jars for core.logic…
11:50	dnolen	hugod: http://build.clojure.org/job/core.logic/lastBuild/ ?
11:50	cemerick	dnolen: "A datatype provides a host type…" ibid. I see what you're saying, but a lot of what we understand about the semantics of deftype (for example) rely on our understanding of classes, fields, etc.
11:52	hugod	dnolen: was the staging repo ever closed and promoted?
11:54	dnolen	hugod: ?
11:54	cemerick	dnolen: there wasn't an actual release of core.logic, so artifacts never went to central
11:55	hugod	dnolen: the build log shows the jar being uploaded to sonatype staging - to actually get it into the releases repo it needs to be closed and promoted through the oss sonatype nexus instance
11:55	dnolen	hugod: ah so I need to get someone on core to do that?
11:56	cemerick	dnolen: see http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/How+to+Make+Releases
11:56	cemerick	the release process is entirely automatic; twiddling the version number to be non-SNAPSHOT doesn't actually push releases through, tho
11:56	cemerick	(entire automatic, given a button-press in hudson, that is)
11:57	clgv	humm why is it "core.logic" instead of "contrib.logic"?
11:57	cemerick	That staging repo actually needs to get dropped to make room for the actual release.
11:57	chouser	cemerick: I like the flowchart. I think my primary point of concern would be that someone without sufficient familiarity with functional programming might think they know the answers to many of the questions, and yet be wrong, ending up in gen-class when they shouldn't be.
11:59	chouser	starting with the first one. I'm an OO programmer. I have a few pieces of related data I need to use together. Therefore I think I need a class, when in fact all I need is a map or vector.
11:59	dnolen	clgv: in hopes that one day it might actually be good enough to live up to that name ? :)
11:59	kephale	chouser: are you the same chouser that does Gentoo stuff?
11:59	clgv	dnolen: ok, marketing reasons ;)
11:59	chouser	Or I think I need new methods when helper functions would suffice, or that I need a ctor when a factory fn would be better, etc.
12:00	chouser	kephale: wow, once upon a time, yes.
12:00	kephale	chouser: heh, cool, just curious
12:00	chouser	surely you haven't seen my name in anything gentoo related for years?
12:01	kephale	actually your name is still all over gentoo docs
12:01	dnolen	hugod: hmm, don't think I have a hudson login
12:01	chouser	heh. wow. well, yeah, that's me. hi. :-)
12:01	technomancy	bsteuber: for the record, it's fixed in git and will be released today or tomorrow
12:02	chouser	I used to use gentoo to control my computers. These days ubuntu lets me use them in certain, restricted, ways.
12:03	kephale	yeah, i more or less quit gentoo after the developer split years ago and embraced my debianite tendencies
12:04	cemerick	dnolen: I can start the release for you if you like; I don't know what core's policy is on hudson logins.
12:05	dnolen	cemerick: that'd be great, thanks! I sent a message about hudson login to the clojure-dev ML.
12:05	cemerick	dnolen: In any case, you'll need to back out the change to the version number in the POM.
12:06	dnolen	cemerick: ah the new POM doesn't apply?
12:06	hugod	cemerick: can't you just promote the existing staging repo?
12:07	cemerick	dnolen: actually, it may not matter
12:07	cemerick	hugod: Yes, but then the release point isn't shown in hudson like it is in the histories of all the other projects. :-)
12:07	cemerick	dnolen: do you want me to release it now, or do you want to wait for a potential hudson login?
12:08	dnolen	cemerick: a release now is ok.
12:10	cemerick	dnolen: Yup, need that version number rolled back to 0.6.1-SNAPSHOT. Sorry.
12:10	dnolen	cemerick: so do I just need to back off the POM change?
12:11	cemerick	dnolen: yes, this one: 1338b70181953ab02da7cced12e1e8b836702d0d
12:11	cemerick	The later one should be fine.
12:13	hugod	cemerick: can the hudson release plugin not release from a tag?
12:17	cemerick	hugod: not that I'm aware of.
12:20	dnolen	cemerick: ? oh I backed out the POM change, why should I leave SNAPSHOT there?
12:22	cemerick	dnolen: the maven gods apparently demand that releases be cut from a SNAPSHOT
12:22	dnolen	cemerick: ok
12:22	chouser	cemerick: of course no flowchart could be expected to deliver that kind of subtlety, so I suppose as long as it's accompanied by sufficient explanation for each question, it might be very handy.
12:23	cemerick	chouser: sorry, missed your prior msgs. The flowchart has a number of issues, as have been raised here and elsewhere. It's definitely intended to be an accompanyment to other more detailed materials, so maybe that helps with the scope.
12:24	dnolen	cemerick: k, done.
12:27	cemerick	dnolen: done, should be in central in some couple of hours
12:27	cemerick	hugod: ^^
12:28	dnolen	cemerick: thanks much!
12:28	hugod	cemerick, dnolen thanks
12:28	cemerick	np
12:34	bsteuber	technomancy: thanks, should've tried master before reporting :)
12:34	bsteuber	technomancy: btw swank works for me without updating swank-clojure
12:35	bsteuber	that is, if it wasn't already done by lein deps if you pushed it
12:44	dnolen	BackType gets picked up by Twitter, wonder if that means no opensource Storm.
12:56	bpr	is there a way to type the literal for ,(type (byte-array 0))
12:57	bpr	,(type (byte-array 0))
12:57	clojurebot	[B
12:57	bpr	i would like to be able to check for it in a (case ...) form
12:57	chouser	bpr: excellent question!
12:58	chouser	I don't think there's an officially supported way, but I think I may have a solution for you. just a sec.
12:58	hiredman	bpr: class literals don't work well in case
12:58	bpr	cool! ty
12:58	bpr	hiredman: yeah, it's a one-off though
12:58	chouser	hiredman: class literals in general have a problem?
12:59	chouser	oh. do they not work at all?
13:00	jcromartie	,(case java.lang.String java.lang.String :foo)
13:00	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching clause: class java.lang.String
13:01	bpr	hiredman: i guess i could make a multimethod, but i think i'd still be faced with trying to indicate (type (byte-array 0)) somehow
13:01	hiredman	bpr: that is more or less how you do it
13:01	jcromartie	note that docs say "All manner of constant expressions are acceptable in case"
13:01	bpr	,(case "" java.lang.Sting :foo)
13:01	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching clause:
13:02	amalloy	jcromartie: and java.lang.String is a constant symbol, which is mapped in the current namespace to a class
13:02	bpr	,(case (type "") java.lang.Sting :foo)
13:02	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching clause: class java.lang.String
13:02	chouser	bpr: this seems to work: #=(clojure.lang.RT/classForName "[B")
13:02	bpr	chouser: oh nice
13:03	amalloy	chouser: the weird uses for #= never end
13:03	chouser	,(case (type (byte-array 0)) #=(clojure.lang.RT/classForName "[B") :bytes)
13:03	clojurebot	EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
13:03	chouser	heh. right.
13:03	chouser	bpr: #= is subject to change without warning, so use at your own risk.
13:04	bpr	ok, thanks for the heads up
13:04	chouser	and you didn't hear it from me. :-)
13:04	amalloy	i saw someone trying to use #= to force an "inner" macro to expand before the macro containing it
13:04	bpr	haha
13:04	hiredman	:(
13:04	chouser	amalloy: wow
13:04	amalloy	(deftype Foo #=(generate-my-deftype-body Foo))
13:04	amalloy	or something of that sort
13:05	chouser	yikes
13:05	chouser	yeah, that's the wrong way to do that.
13:05	amalloy	ingenious but very wrong
13:05	chouser	hm, but does suggest another possible option for bpr's case
13:05	amalloy	i suppose it does
13:06	hiredman	a macro that expands case forms and resolves symbols that map to classes
13:06	amalloy	some kind of case+ macro that checks to see if its clause resolves to a Class, and if so replaces the symbol with the class in its expansion?
13:06	jcromartie	what is #=
13:07	amalloy	$google clojure evalreader
13:07	sexpbot	First out of 44 results is: defrecord improvements - Clojure Design - Clojure Development
13:07	sexpbot	http://clojure02.managed.contegix.com/display/design/defrecord+improvements
13:07	amalloy	hm. no dice
13:07	chouser	hiredman: exactly
13:07	chouser	(defmacro mycase [& args] (cons `case (map #(get {:my/bytes (clojure.lang.RT/classForName "[B")} % %) args)))
13:08	chouser	(mycase (type (byte-array 0)) :my/bytes :foundbytes)
13:08	chouser	bpr: this is a better solution than #=()
13:08	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
13:08	bpr	chouser: ok
13:10	amalloy	chouser: what's with using clojure.lang.RT there anyway? ##(Class/forName "[B") has got to be more readable
13:10	sexpbot	⟹ [B
13:11	chouser	amalloy: thats fine too
13:12	bpr	thanks for the tips guys! very helpful
13:32	clizzin	if a java method takes multiple strings with foo(String... strs), how can i apply this method to a seq of strings?
13:33	amalloy	clizzin: you have to pass a String[]
13:33	clizzin	amalloy: great, thanks
13:34	amalloy	anyone know how to get format/printf to use a width not known at compile time, like C's %* specifier?
13:47	chouser	amalloy: docs are here: http://download.oracle.com/javase/1,5.0/docs/api/java/util/Formatter.html#syntax
13:48	amalloy	chouser: yeah, i read em. can't find it, but am not willing to conclude it doesn't exist
13:48	chouser	heh
13:48	chouser	well if the docs don't say, I'd look at the source next.
13:48	amalloy	i think it actually doesn't, and the excuse is that it's easier to concatenate string in java than in c
13:48	hiredman	amalloy: you can generate the string used for format at runtime
13:48	chouser	just use format to create the format string.
13:48	amalloy	so that you're supposed to cook up a format string yourself
14:03	rindolf	Hi all. After I've followed http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Eclipse+and+Counterclockwise with the latest Eclipse build on Mageia Linux Cauldron the *.clj file does not appear under src.
14:03	rindolf	Can anyone help?
14:14	technomancy	someone was saying last week they had to get it from upstream instead of using the version that came with their distro
14:23	rindolf	technomancy: I got it from upstream.
14:31	cemerick	hugod, dnolen, chouser: updated flowchart, FWIW http://wp.me/p10OJi-9r
14:33	hiredman	you can also use defprotocol/definterface if you need to add methods
14:35	cemerick	Yeah, we have an example of doing that, too.
14:36	hiredman	deftype needs to support static fields
14:36	chouser	why?
14:36	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
14:40	hiredman	chouser: fns need static fields
14:40	hiredman	for constants
14:41	cemerick	hiredman: ^:const is coming
14:41	hiredman	that is not the same
14:41	cemerick	(maybe it's already here, living among us)
14:41	hiredman	:const doesn't replace static field support in deftype
14:42	cemerick	not fully, no, but it will for many uses
14:42	hiredman	not really
14:42	hiredman	static fields in fns are used to store things like the vars reference by the fn, etc
14:42	cemerick	IIUC, it will for any atomic Clojure value
14:43	hiredman	no
14:45	amalloy	hiredman: do you object to making clojurebot forget "why"? it generates more noise than useful contributions
14:45	cemerick	I feel enlightened already.
14:47	hiredman	amalloy: I will try and figure out how to do that
14:48	hiredman	cemerick: I am not overly familiar with ^:const but I am pretty sure it just copies the value as a constant where it is referenced
14:49	hiredman	the clojure compiler turns constant references (not just ^:const, but things like 1 or :foo) into static fields
14:50	hiredman	so if you were say, writing a clojure compiler that wanted to avoid dealing with fns altogether and just translated everything into deftypes, deftype would need to support static fields
16:28	pcavs	Is there a function that takes two ints representing [rows cols] and returns a vector of row number of vectors of column number of elements?
16:30	amalloy	&((fn [r c] (vec (repeat r (vec (repeat c nil))))) 3 3)
16:30	sexpbot	⟹ [[nil nil nil] [nil nil nil] [nil nil nil]]
16:31	pcavs	thanks
16:44	cmbntr_	hi all
16:46	cmbntr_	ring/jetty specific question: is it safe to fire up multiple jetty servers (on differnt ports) within a single jvm via ring.adapter.jetty/run-server ?
16:54	dnolen	cmbntr_: should be fine far as I know.
16:54	jonabbey	&((fn [r c] (repeat r (repeat c nil))) 2 3)
16:54	sexpbot	⟹ ((nil nil nil) (nil nil nil))
16:55	jonabbey	neat, sexpbot
16:55	cmbntr_	dnolen: jep, I checked over at the #jetty channel. jmcconnell confirmed
16:56	cmbntr_	safes some major request rewriting...
17:14	ninjudd_	am i just overreacting, or is this ridiculous? https://github.com/clojure/java.classpath/pull/2
17:16	technomancy	=(
17:20	dnolen	ninjudd: Clojure won't take any pull requests, but from what I understand contrib devs can push to any (contrib?) repo. Of course it would be rude to push to a repo w/o first asking the author.
17:22	amalloy	that's...that's a lot of aleph
17:22	dnolen	ninjudd: but yeah, creating a JIRA ticket just to remove warn-on-reflection seems like a lot of overhead. I would just tell stuartsierra directly.
17:22	technomancy	the fsf is famous for being paranoid about copyright assignment, but even they don't make a fuss about patches under 20 loc
17:22	technomancy	claiming you assign copyright on that patch to anyone would be disingenuous though, since you don't have copyright on it in the first place.
17:23	amalloy	technomancy: i thought ahead and took out a copyright on the empty string
17:24	amalloy	go ahead and write out an infinite number of them. pretty sure you used a lot of empty strings in that last message
17:25	technomancy	do you take bitcoins?
17:25	amalloy	haha
17:56	Raynes	ninjudd: It's fairly ridiculous, but whatchagonnado.
17:58	ninjudd	i think i may refuse to create a JIRA ticket in protest
17:59	ninjudd	oh. not necessary. abedra decided to just commit the fix
18:04	Raynes	ninjudd: Yeah, I saw that. Nobody can resist the ninja.
18:17	Crowb4r	So who else is excited for Clojure on Heroku?
18:18	technomancy	yesssss
18:18	technomancy	I am
18:22	ibdknox	The only problem is the cost
18:22	ibdknox	compared to EC2 it's quite expensive
18:22	ibdknox	hard to beat the workflow though :)
18:24	Ramblurr	anyone familiar with sandbar and its auth functions?
18:25	Ramblurr	i have a question about the "authentication function"
18:33	livingston	some of my collaborators bumped a project to 1.3 .. now I'm really missing what was clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show where is that now?
18:35	cemerick	ibdknox: lein-beanstalk is pretty slick, too FWIW https://github.com/weavejester/lein-beanstalk
18:36	ibdknox	cemerick: yeah it is :D I updated noir to make it easy to work with that too now.
18:36	cemerick	My only complaint is that the beanstalk-specific functionality is all tied up with lein instead of being broken up into its own lib
18:37	ibdknox	is there something else you want to use it for?
18:37	ibdknox	or rather, something else you want to use it with
18:37	cemerick	maven builds
18:37	cemerick	I've got my own beanstalk lib, but it's not as complete as what lein-beanstalk has in it
18:38	cemerick	I'm debating whether to just rip out the lein bits or finish my own
18:39	ibdknox	you should talk to James
18:39	ibdknox	see his thoughts on it
18:39	hiredman	cemerick: perhaps the project object model will help?
18:41	ibdknox	the beanstalk part itself is fairly simple
18:41	ibdknox	it seems like the war exporting is where all the work would be
18:51	livingston	is there any future intent to keep the clojure contrib sub projects version-locked with clojure core?
18:51	livingston	upon upgrading it's kinda a pain to hunt through the contrib libs to find the current version (whereas previously it was in synch with core)
18:52	lucian	last time i checked, clojure bootstrap time was prohibitive on android. has that changed recently?
18:57	technomancy	lucian: I don't think so
18:57	lucian	ah, found http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Android+Support. it seems the most up to date
18:57	lucian	technomancy: thanks
19:00	babilen	technomancy: Hei. I've tested clucy 0.2.2 and that worked fine so far. I'll probably get the rest done tomorrow. PM ok (re: maintainership, clojure group, leiningen)
19:01	technomancy	babilen: sweet; thanks!
19:02	gfrlog	hmmm...is clojure yelling at me because I want a 0-arg function in my protocol?
19:02	gfrlog	do protocol method signatures include this?
19:04	amalloy	gfrlog: yes
19:04	amalloy	anaphora are unhip
19:04	gfrlog	anaphora am unhip.
19:05	jsnikeris	How would you remove a given prefix from a string?
19:05	amalloy	&(doc clojure.string/replace)
19:05	sexpbot	⟹ "([s match replacement]); Replaces all instance of match with replacement in s. match/replacement can be: string / string char / char pattern / (string or function of match). See also replace-first."
19:06	amalloy	&(clojure.string/replace "the-test" #"^the-" "")
19:06	sexpbot	⟹ "test"
19:06	gfrlog	jsnikeris: if the prefix is fixed, you can just take a substring based on its length
19:06	scottj	has the speculation on topic of next nyc clojure meeting already happened? consensus?
19:06	jsnikeris	the prefix is a parameter
19:06	amalloy	gfrlog: if the prefix is fixed and is known to be present in each string
19:06	gfrlog	(that also assumes you don't need to test that it's there)
19:07	amalloy	scottj: i speculate he'll announce oracle has purchased clojure
19:07	jsnikeris	is there a way to take a string and escape any regex-special characters?
19:07	amalloy	$google java util regex pattern quote
19:07	gfrlog	I knew that's where we were going next :)
19:07	sexpbot	First out of 2990 results is: Pattern (Java Platform SE 6)
19:07	sexpbot	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/regex/Pattern.html
19:08	amalloy	jsnikeris: note i'm using regexes here just because it's easy to think of; it's probably not the cleanest solution
19:08	amalloy	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/regex/Pattern.html#quote(java.lang.String) is the specific link
19:08	gfrlog	you could test the length-based-substring for equality...
19:08	jsnikeris	amalloy: yah, that's what I reached for right away too
19:09	jsnikeris	but as gfrlog is saying, maybe it's better to just check if the string starts with the given prefix, and if it does, remove that many characters
19:09	gfrlog	(defn make-remover [prefix] (fn [s] (if (= prefix (.substring s 0 (count prefix))) (.substring s (count prefix)) s)))
19:09	gfrlog	^ untested
19:10	jsnikeris	gfrlog: I think I'll go with something like that. Thanks for the tips
19:10	gfrlog	no probalo
19:12	gfrlog	I think the only thing wrong with that version is it fails for strings shorter than the prefix
19:12	gfrlog	er, crashes
19:13	amalloy	just mention in the docs that the behavior is undefined in all cases
19:13	gfrlog	:)
19:13	amalloy	any apparent consistency is coincidence
19:13	gfrlog	(defn make-remover [prefix] {:pre false} ...)
19:13	ibdknox	lol
19:14	amalloy	nice
19:14	ibdknox	I'm going to add that to all my functions now ;)
19:14	wilfredh	hi all
19:14	gfrlog	hi wilfredh
19:14	amalloy	gfrlog: i think the syntax is wrong though
19:14	gfrlog	amalloy: whycome?
19:14	wilfredh	I've just set up a test project (complete newbie) -- why doesn't this test fail?
19:14	wilfredh	(deftest test-my-add (is 3 (+ 1 1)))
19:14	terom	,(.startsWith "prefixed-string" "prefix")
19:14	clojurebot	true
19:14	amalloy	don't you need :pre to map to a seq of tests, not just a single test-expr?
19:15	ibdknox	(is (= 3 (+ 1 1))
19:15	gfrlog	,(let [f (fn make-remover [prefix] {:pre false} :whut)] (f "okay"))
19:15	amalloy	wilfredh: =
19:15	clojurebot	:whut
19:15	ibdknox	you're not testing for equality
19:15	ibdknox	is simply asserts that the value is true
19:15	gfrlog	ah probably
19:15	gfrlog	,(let [f (fn make-remover [prefix] {:pre [false]} :whut)] (f "okay"))
19:15	clojurebot	java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: false
19:15	gfrlog	amalloy: good catch
19:15	gfrlog	ibdknox: go back and fix the functions you've already changed
19:15	clojurebot	anonymous functions are functions with no names
19:15	wilfredh	argh, much clearer :) thanks
19:16	ibdknox	gfrlog: damn. More work :p
19:16	gfrlog	this is open source. correctness is not guaranteed.
19:16	ibdknox	haha
19:16	amalloy	clojurebot: thanks for the tip, bro
19:16	clojurebot	bartj: it's not broken. Unless you know the performance hit there is actually a problem, I'd recommend leaving it alone.
19:17	gfrlog	I feel like there's a good joke to be made for naming a function that has {:pre [false]}
19:19	ibdknox	perhaps we need a lib for testing coincidental correctness.
19:19	gfrlog	replace is with might-be?
19:19	ibdknox	yes
19:19	ibdknox	or is-possibly?
19:20	gfrlog	and how could such a test fail?
19:20	amalloy	ibdknox: i like the coincidental correctness of sexpbot (sometimes) returning clojure.core/rand-nth for $findfn [1 2] 1
19:20	gfrlog	haha
19:20	ibdknox	lol
19:20	gfrlog	$findfn [1 2] 1
19:20	sexpbot	[clojure.core/first]
19:20	ibdknox	gfrlog: it can't? that's the value in it.
19:21	gfrlog	all of the coverage and none of the failures
19:21	gfrlog	$findfn [1 2] 1
19:21	sexpbot	[clojure.core/first clojure.core/rand-nth]
19:21	ibdknox	exactly. That's infinitely better than normal unit tests ;)
19:21	amalloy	ibdknox: of course it could. just call the function with all possible states of the universe, and see if any of them return the expected values
19:21	ibdknox	lol
19:22	gfrlog	if they're all expected, does it still pass?
19:23	ibdknox	that is the CCC (Clojure Coincidental Correctness) paradox
19:28	ibdknox	completely unrelated
19:28	ibdknox	I wrote a clojure starter pack for the google ai challenge
19:28	ibdknox	if anyone is interested
19:40	scottj	ibdknox: url for new contest? http://ai-contest.com/ doesn't appear to have been updated
19:41	ibdknox	scottj: the beta site is here: http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/index.php
19:41	ibdknox	the contest has not officially begun yet
19:41	ibdknox	and you won't be able to use my starter bot on the comp website until they merge my change to fix the clojure support
19:41	scottj	the last one was pretty cool for spectators
19:41	ibdknox	you can, however, play locally :D
19:42	ibdknox	bot is here: https://github.com/ibdknox/aichallenge/tree/epsilon/ants/dist/starter_bots/clojure
19:43	carlo_au	What's the easiest way to call Python from Clojure? I'd like to use Python's load to un-pickle some vectors of floats and then work with them in Clojure.
19:44	hiredman	:\|
19:45	cemerick	ibdknox: yeah, beanstalk isn't complex at all, it's just too bad the impl isn't reusable.
19:45	cemerick	ibdknox: war exporting?
19:45	ibdknox	yeah
19:46	ibdknox	cemerick: if you look at the implementation of lein-beanstalk, it relies on lein-ring to do most of the heavy lifting, namely generating a war that will work on EB
19:47	cemerick	heh
19:47	ibdknox	which isn't a pretty problem to solve:
19:47	ibdknox	https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/blob/master/src/leiningen/ring/war.clj
19:47	cemerick	build war files just can't be considered 'heavy lifting' :-)
19:47	ibdknox	haha
19:47	ibdknox	well none of this is too bad :-p
19:48	ibdknox	but relatively speaking, it does all the real work :)
19:48	cemerick	ibdknox: that looks complicated because of the bizarre web.xml transliteration support that's going on
19:48	ibdknox	yup
19:48	ibdknox	as well as the default servlet stuff
19:49	ibdknox	which if you knew much about Java web servlets problem isn't that complicated, but I try to keep away from that nonsense as much as possible ;)
19:49	ibdknox	haha
19:50	cemerick	Lots of good stuff in that nonsense
19:50	ibdknox	carlo_au: do you need to be able to do this at runtime?
19:51	ibdknox	why not just write a python script that exports the data you need in a manageable format
19:51	ibdknox	json or something
19:51	ibdknox	and then read that from clojure
19:51	carlo_au	ibdknox: no, I just need to call a few functions
19:51	carlo_au	I also want to call some numpy and scipy code for curve fitting
19:52	ibdknox	I would do this all before it ever touched clojure
19:53	ibdknox	cemerick: such as?
19:54	carlo_au	I would too, but there's an existing code-base that I want to make use of.
19:55	cemerick	ibdknox: default servlets for serving static assets, filters, declarative servlet configuration, container-managed session mgmt, etc…
19:57	ibdknox	cemerick: yeah, the foundation for serving content. I didn't mean to belittle their importance, just their level of abstraction. In most cases, I don't think you need to work that low in the stack.
19:57	ibdknox	and as somewhat of a testament to that, I've managed to avoid learning about them for now
19:57	ibdknox	good bad or indifferent
19:58	cemerick	ibdknox: I don't think you grokked what I just described
19:58	ibdknox	I see, what'd I miss?
19:58	cemerick	e.g. ring standard practice seems to be to manually set up handlers for serving static assets
19:59	cemerick	I'd call that working "low in the stack"
19:59	ibdknox	to be fair, I think Ring is low in the stack :)
19:59	ibdknox	I get what you're saying though
20:00	ibdknox	there's a wealth of stuff already written for you there
20:01	ibdknox	I'll look more into that, see if there's anything I can steal :D
20:02	terom	carlo_au: maybe you could use Jython
20:03	gfrlog	ah ha.
20:04	gfrlog	I cannot use (size) as a method name on a protocol :(
20:04	ibdknox	really?
20:04	amalloy	gfrlog: bet you a dollar
20:04	amalloy	you can't use it in a defrecord, though
20:04	gfrlog	yeah that's what I was inaccurately actually saying
20:04	ibdknox	lol
20:05	carlo_au	terom: I just looked at that, and apparently numpy doesn't work in jython, so I'm stuck. Ah well.
20:05	gfrlog	it's funny because I had just verified that distinction experimentally before reporting it, and still said it wrong
20:05	gfrlog	%s/size/cardinality/g
20:05	amalloy	gfrlog: just name it size-me-up
20:06	gfrlog	ha
20:06	ibdknox	haha
20:06	ibdknox	sounds good to me
20:33	seancorfield	if i use defmulti in the REPL and then decide to define it differently, should i need to do something specific to make the REPL 'forget' the previous definition?
20:33	seancorfield	i defined it one way, realized it wouldn't work so i defined it another way, but the repl behaved as if the original version was still in effect...
20:34	technomancy	seancorfield: new "feature" in clojure 1.2 unfortunately
20:34	hiredman	yes, defmulti behaves like defonce (ugh)
20:34	hiredman	(ns-unmap ns 'name) should clear it out
20:34	seancorfield	ouch... ok, at least i'm not going crazy
20:35	seancorfield	ns-unalias?
20:35	hiredman	ns-unmap
20:35	technomancy	during development I'll just put (def mymulti nil) before my defmulti call
20:35	technomancy	so recompiling works
20:36	seancorfield	ah, nice trick!
20:37	seancorfield	with defmethod, if you dispatch on two values, is there a way to say "don't care" about just one of them? i couldn't find any examples
20:39	seancorfield	i guess i just need to make my dispatch function smarter...
20:39	seancorfield	first time i've tried to use multi methods
20:40	gfrlog	seancorfield: I had that exact problem like a year or two ago when first learning clojure, and ended up writing two multimethods instead. I still don't know of a better way.
20:40	gfrlog	maybe because I almost never use multimethods.
21:03	bpr	technomancy: nice idea about (defvar mymulti nil)
21:03	technomancy	would be nicer still if it weren't needed
21:03	bpr	yeah, totally agreed
21:08	gfrlog	I think I'm about to write an algorithm with three nested (loop)s :/
21:11	amalloy	gfrlog: when i wrote a function with three (for)s and three (apply concat)s, i knew it was time to seek help
21:11	gfrlog	amalloy: is that the story of how mapcat was originally written?
21:11	gfrlog	,:-D
21:11	clojurebot	:-D
21:12	brehaut	gfrlog: mapcat and for are isomorphic
21:13	gfrlog	I'm not seeing it
21:13	brehaut	gfrlog: for is seq comprehensions which are sequence (list) monads with clean notation
21:13	brehaut	in the list monad mapcat is bind
21:14	derp__	um, how does one go through a map blindly? like if you don't know the names of the items
21:14	derp__	is there a way to generate a list of keys?
21:14	gfrlog	derp__: keys
21:14	derp__	gfrlog: thanks!
21:14	gfrlog	I love questions that are hard to ask without including the answer in the question.
21:14	clojurebot	the answer is 42
21:15	gfrlog	brehaut: I don't know that I'm going to understand the monad formulation.
21:15	brehaut	gfrlog: im writing the equivalent forms
21:15	brehaut	give me a moment
21:15	gfrlog	:)
21:17	amalloy	derp__: you usually want to just seq the map rather than using keys and then looking them each up
21:18	amalloy	&(for [[k v] {1 3 8 2}] (* k v))
21:18	sexpbot	⟹ (3 16)
21:18	brehaut	gfrlog: ##(= (mapcat (fn [a] (mapcat (fn [b] [[a b]]) [:a :b :c])) [1 2 3]) (for [a [1 2 3] b [:a :b :c]] [a b]))
21:18	sexpbot	⟹ true
21:18	brehaut	(the monad form is roughly (bind [1 2 3] (fn [a] (bind [:a :b :c] (fn [b] [[a b]])))) because bind and mapcat have their arguments in a flipped in clj)
21:20	gfrlog	brehaut: I take from that expression that a simple for is easily transformed into nested mapcats
21:20	brehaut	correct
21:20	brehaut	:when and :let are also relatively trivial
21:21	gfrlog	The part I was thinking about was going the other way, so let's do this example:
21:21	gfrlog	,(mapcat range (range 4))
21:21	clojurebot	(0 0 1 0 1 2)
21:21	gfrlog	,(for [a (range 4) b (range a)] b)
21:21	clojurebot	(0 0 1 0 1 2)
21:21	gfrlog	I guess that's how to do it, huh?
21:21	brehaut	yeah
21:22	gfrlog	I have learned some. Thanks.
21:22	brehaut	no problem
21:22	brehaut	and now, back to work
21:22	gfrlog	:)
21:22	gfrlog	$findfn 7 3 [2 1]
21:22	sexpbot	[]
21:23	gfrlog	$findfn 7 3 [1 2]
21:23	sexpbot	[]
21:23	hiredman	I've often wished for had a flag or something to apply concat to the result like mapcat does, you can kind of fake it, but meh
21:23	amalloy	Everyone, stand back! I know how to use monads! ;; brehaut darting in and out
21:24	gfrlog	what he said ended up making sense I think, but I still don't know anything further about monads
21:24	amalloy	gfrlog: try (juxt quot rem)
21:24	gfrlog	amalloy: that's exactly what I want, but performant
21:24	amalloy	the jvm doesn't have it
21:24	gfrlog	amalloy: I'll probably end up using the bigint version; I'm using bigints anyhow.
21:24	amalloy	mostly because java doesn't make it easy to deal with multiple return values, i suspect
21:25	gfrlog	that is interesting to know that the jvm doesn't do it for primitives though. Do you know if typical CPUs support it?
21:25	amalloy	yes
21:26	amalloy	most CPUs are register architectures, where it's easy to say "the results of the division will be put into registers foo and bar"
21:26	amalloy	the jvm uses a stack instruction set, which makes that more awkward (though presumably not impossible)
21:26	gfrlog	,(let [[a b] (seq (.divideAndRemainder (bigint 7) (bigint 3)))] [a b])
21:26	clojurebot	[2 1]
21:27	gfrlog	certainly not if you don't mind 2-element arrays
21:27	hiredman	(x86 barely has enough registers to count as being a register machine)
21:28	hiredman	amalloy: it just means instructions can result in more than one value being pushed to the stack
21:28	hiredman	I think john rose has a blog post
21:28	amalloy	gfrlog: making an asm instruction return a freshly-allocated array? the performance nuts will want to make you pass in an array to be filled with the result of the division
21:28	hiredman	http://blogs.oracle.com/jrose/entry/tuples_in_the_vm
21:29	gfrlog	amalloy: so do it both ways
21:30	amalloy	hiredman: do you happen to know how many bytes each opcode is?
21:31	amalloy	oh, neat blog. thanks for the ink
21:31	amalloy	*link
21:32	hiredman	amalloy: 1
21:32	hiredman	blegh
21:32	amalloy	gfrlog: if the opcode is only a single byte, adding two new opcodes is probably pretty expensive
21:32	hiredman	well, 1 + some that take arguments
21:32	gfrlog	amalloy: well if we each chip in a dollar...
21:33	amalloy	$google jvm instruction set
21:33	sexpbot	First out of 28400 results is: VM Spec The Java Virtual Machine Instruction Set
21:33	sexpbot	http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jvms/second_edition/html/Instructions.doc.html
21:33	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_bytecode_instruction_listings
21:34	hiredman	if only rose was given a free hand
21:40	hiredman	value types are way cool, but I still want tail calls
21:45	jonabbey	how much benefit will there be with java 7's dynamic calls?
21:46	jonabbey	InvokeDynamic, that is
21:46	dnolen	jonabbey: what kind of benefit are you asking about?
21:46	jonabbey	that's.. a good question. ;-) i was wondering if clojure would see any benefit from it, but i don't actually know enough to know what dimensions it might improve upon
21:47	jonabbey	i've been reading a couple of the clojure books, but i haven't gotten my toes wet with it yet
21:47	jonabbey	i'm just sick of java the language
21:47	jonabbey	and it's lack of higher order functions, closures, etc.
21:48	jonabbey	so, asking out of ignorance
21:48	hiredman	I don't think invokedynamic brings that much for clojure
21:48	jonabbey	that's too bad
21:48	jonabbey	although i understand clojure was designed for the jvm to begin with
21:48	hiredman	possibly it could be used to boost performance of non-inlined protocols
21:48	hiredman	jonabbey: right
21:49	dnolen	jonabbey: without invokeDynamic won't bring the dramatic perf benefits that the other dyn langs on the JVM are seeing because Clojure is already ridiculously fast for a dynamic language on the JVM.
21:50	seancorfield	defmethod doesn't accept a docstring??
21:50	hiredman	seancorfield: how would that work?
21:50	gfrlog	seancorfield: the multimethod is one function to the caller, so it gets one docstring
21:50	seancorfield	yeah, so i see having read thru the source code
21:51	seancorfield	i'm just a bit surprised that it doesn't have a way to automatically accumulate the dispatch values and some associated docstring / metadata
21:52	seancorfield	so that means if you add a method later, you have to go to the original defmulti to update the docstring :(
21:52	pcavs	,(meta (def ^{:key "val"} x 10))
21:52	clojurebot	DENIED
21:53	pcavs	why doesn't that work?
21:53	pcavs	besides the fact it won't let me def things
21:53	gfrlog	#^{:key "val"} is the syntax I think
21:53	dnolen	pcavs: you're putting metadata onto the symbol, but def returns the var.
21:54	pcavs	oh
21:54	pcavs	so how do I throw the metadata onto the var?
21:55	pcavs	dnolen: well (meta 'x) doesn't work either .... O.o
21:55	pcavs	oops, nevermind, (meta #'x) works
21:57	jonabbey	,(meta #'x)
21:57	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: x in this context
21:57	dnolen	pcavs: actually, I'm totally wrong, your code works for me just fine on 1.2.0 and 1.3.0
21:57	jonabbey	how does clojurebot differ from sexpbot?
21:57	gfrlog	well.
21:59	dnolen	hiredman: is there anything specific reason you really want tail calls? just cleaner code?
21:59	gfrlog	clojurebot evaluates expressions prefixed by a comma, and sexpbot evaluates expressions prefixed by an ampersand. Sexpbot can also evaluate expressions inline when prefixed by two pound-signs. Both bots have lots of other auxiliary features, and hiredman has sexpbot on ignore.
21:59	hiredman	dnolen: I won't have to use trampoline and letfn
21:59	hiredman	dnolen: I'd check again with regards to (meta #'x) on 1.2
22:00	jonabbey	or loop/recur?
22:00	amalloy	seancorfield: if your multimethod needs a different docstring for each dispatch value, it's not providing a very good abstraction, it seems to me
22:00	hiredman	jonabbey: doesn't work for functions that call each other
22:01	gfrlog	(inc amalloy)
22:01	sexpbot	⟹ 13
22:01	dnolen	hiredman: yeah, seems like the likelihood of it happening it soon is low these days ...
22:02	jonabbey	nice
22:02	jonabbey	(inc amalloy)
22:02	sexpbot	⟹ 14
22:02	jonabbey	hm, no ampersand or double pound sign required?
22:02	amalloy	jonabbey: it's not a clojure expression
22:02	amalloy	just a command that looks a lot like one
22:03	jonabbey	ah
22:03	gfrlog	&(inc amalloy)
22:03	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: amalloy in this context
22:03	seancorfield	amalloy: well, it was more having the documentation "near" the code it was documenting...
22:03	jonabbey	(help)
22:03	hiredman	clojurebot's help covers more topics
22:03	jonabbey	thanks
22:03	hiredman	help?
22:03	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
22:03	gfrlog	jonabbey: I don't think either bot would respond to something as general as an s-expression, except in the special case of inc/dec
22:03	amalloy	haha
22:04	jonabbey	i assume clojurebot and sexpbot know enough to ignore each other's output?
22:04	seancorfield	i'm processing PowerMTA accounting files and generating email bounce events (validation and update events come in from elsewhere) so i'm dispatching on the event and, in the case of bounces, the current email status
22:04	amalloy	&(inc 1)
22:04	sexpbot	⟹ 2
22:04	clojurebot	⟹ "Returns the metadata of obj, returns nil if there is no metadata."
22:04	gfrlog	&(println ",(println \"Hey sexpbot\")")
22:04	sexpbot	⟹ ,(println "Hey sexpbot") nil
22:04	seancorfield	so the multimethod gives me a nice clean state machine
22:04	gfrlog	wait dangit I did it in the wrong direction :(
22:04	seancorfield	event and email status record in; updated email status record out (which i then save back to the DB)
22:04	amalloy	jonabbey: sexpbot prefixes his output with ⟹ to avoid confusion
22:05	jonabbey	smart
22:05	gfrlog	jonabbey: so if you did what I just did the other way round, sexpbot would respond
22:05	gfrlog	unless they've updated that
22:05	jonabbey	,(println "&(println \"Hey clojurebot\")")
22:05	clojurebot	&(println "Hey clojurebot")
22:05	sexpbot	⟹ Hey clojurebot nil
22:05	jonabbey	heh
22:06	jonabbey	so nice to be playing with a lisp again
22:07	seancorfield	it's actually kinda nice that i can dispatch off just the event for some events and the event + status for others...
22:09	seancorfield	also kind of amazing that the entire code - including copious docstrings and comments - is still only 139 lines of clojure... and it processes a 450,000 line CSV file to extract 46,000 bounced email events, logs them all and updates the email status in the DB... all in less than 90 seconds!
22:10	seancorfield	i already loved clojure... but now i really love it :)
22:11	amalloy	hugod: you around? i've gotten far enough that M-x slime-connect knows about ritz, but it displays "Symbol's value as variable is void: slime-ritz"
22:14	dnolen	seancorfield: nice.
22:17	amalloy	and lein ritz still depends on my having the sun/oracle jvm rather than openjdk. i can switch, but it seems wrong
22:18	cemerick	seancorfield: I figured you on the fence. ;-)
22:20	hodapp	help... can't... stand... the... C++... any longer...
22:21	seancorfield	cemerick: heh, after all the languages i've used over the years (and that's a LOT), i think i'm happier using clojure than anything else
22:21	cemerick	likewise :-)
22:22	hodapp	having been exposed to Lisp at an early age, I now run into Greenspun's Tenth Rule all the time.
22:24	seancorfield	my first reaction to that was "nonsense!" but then i thought about some of the more complex pieces of software i've written... :\|
22:27	seancorfield	and back in the mid-80's i wrote a lispkit interpreter (peter henderson et al) to use as the basis of some research into language expressiveness (and garbage collection) - the latter actually being more interesting to me then, but the former was more interesting to my professor at the time...
22:37	pcavs	is there a clojure function to return integer division, that rounds down?
22:43	amalloy	$findfn 11 5 2
22:43	sexpbot	[clojure.core/quot clojure.core/unchecked-divide]
22:43	amalloy	pcavs: ^
22:44	pcavs	yeah, stackoverflowed it, thanks tho!
22:45	amalloy	pcavs: the point is more that you can try $findfn in future. sometimes there's an answer you wouldn't have guessed
22:46	pcavs	how does it do that anyways? is very cool
22:46	pcavs	thanks btw
22:46	pcavs	$findfn 11 5 11/5
22:46	sexpbot	[clojure.core//]
22:47	amalloy	pcavs: it just tries a bunch of functions
22:47	cemerick	&clojure-version
22:47	sexpbot	⟹ {:major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier ""}
22:48	cemerick	boy, the bots need an upgrade
22:48	amalloy	cemerick: 1.2.1, maybe. 1.3 is just no fun to upgrade to
22:48	cemerick	unchecked-divide doesn't exist in 1.3 :-)
22:48	cemerick	amalloy: problem areas?
22:48	amalloy	missing pieces in contrib, mostly
22:49	cemerick	you mean bits from old contrib, right?
22:49	amalloy	yes
22:49	cemerick	They're just waiting for someone to give them a nice home.
22:50	hodapp	blargh, Eclipse is complaining about build path
22:51	hodapp	what editors do you guys recommend for OS X?
22:51	amalloy	cemerick: if only it were so easy. i updated the prxml code for 1.3, but clojure's CA and JIRA and stuff make it just too hard to figure out how to do anything
22:51	cemerick	one of the least accounted-for side effects of old-contrib's packaging is that people didn't balance library usage against the dependency
22:51	cemerick	hodapp: Eclipse + ccw here. What problems are you having?
22:52	cemerick	amalloy: I know, it's a dead-zone over there in new contrib. 0_o
22:52	cemerick	The old contrib stuff can just be spun out into a regular old library. It's EPL, have fun.
22:52	hodapp	cemerick: One error is "The project cannot be built until build path errors are resolved"
22:52	hodapp	other is "Unbound classpath container: 'Default System Library' in project 'firstClojureProject'"
22:53	hodapp	was following along in the "Getting Started" guide but I don't see "Clojure REPL" in the "Run as" menu either
22:53	cemerick	hodapp: what version of eclipse?
22:53	hodapp	Indigo
22:54	cemerick	that's the newest, right?
22:54	hodapp	I believe so
22:55	cemerick	hodapp: That second error does not sound friendly at all. If you open up the project's build path, what do you see under the "libraries" tab?
22:56	hodapp	Well, I see "Default System Library (unbound)"
22:57	cemerick	That (unbound) bit is bad. It sounds like Eclipse isn't finding your JDK's installation.
22:57	hodapp	Hrmmm.
22:58	cemerick	Look under Eclipse's main prefs, in Java > Installed JRE's
22:58	amalloy	cemerick: can you tell me how i would go about moving prxml to new-contrib? i'm happy to do the drudge-work for several contrib libraries but don't know the mechanics
22:59	hodapp	huh, "The selected JRE does not support the current compiler compliance level of 1.4"
23:00	hodapp	and it lists none
23:01	cemerick	hodapp: you're seeing that in the prefs panel?
23:01	hodapp	Yeah
23:02	hodapp	This is such a not-a-Clojure-issue, I shouldn't be here...
23:02	cemerick	hodapp: that should all Just Work
23:04	cemerick	amalloy: The first thing to do would be to start a thread on clojure-dev suggesting a transition of prxml to new contrib and volunteering to maintain it.
23:04	sritchie	amalloy, quick cake question -- I've just pulled from the github repository, and now running "cake" gives me "Unable to resolve symbol: make in this context"
23:05	sritchie	I see that make comes from uncle, but I'm not sure how to get the git version of cake to pull this dependency and rely on it when using the command line tool
23:05	amalloy	sritchie: i'm not sure about that but i saw it too. i think one of cake's dependencies broke, resulting in cake master breaking
23:05	amalloy	or. not "broke", but "changed in an incompatible way"
23:05	dnolen	hodapp: you might wanna try NetBeans 7.0 and Enclojure for the least hassle setup on OS X, IMO.
23:06	amalloy	i'm on develop, which works but has some extraneous warning messages at the moment
23:06	hodapp	dnolen: noted.
23:06	amalloy	maybe ninjudd can fix the uncle thing?
23:06	hodapp	I'm not a big fan of Eclipse when things don't Just Work(tm)
23:06	sritchie	I bet adding uncle to my project.clj would work for now (not long-term, of course)
23:06	sritchie	I'll try develop
23:07	cemerick	Enclojure is wanting for maintenance these days. Just FYI.
23:07	hodapp	Hrm.
23:07	dnolen	hodapp: I've tried pretty much everything, and pretty much everything has it's quirks.
23:07	dnolen	cemerick: it works for me, something not work for you?
23:07	cemerick	dnolen: It has some issues on various NB versions, and Eric is tapped out.
23:08	cemerick	There's some great stuff in enclojure, but no one's stepped up to give it the TLC is needs over the long haul.
23:08	dnolen	cemerick: it works on NB 7 well enough to get started. All the Clojure IDE plugins have maintenance issues from what I've seen.
23:09	dnolen	Emacs being the stark exception.
23:09	hodapp	What's the deal with Emacs?
23:09	cemerick	wha?
23:10	technomancy	dnolen: if you think Emacs doesn't have maintenance issues you probably overestimate my understanding of swank. =)
23:10	cemerick	Emacs breaks every time the SLIME devs cough AFAICT.
23:10	sritchie	amalloy, yeah, I'm getting Caused by: java.lang.IllegalAccessError: reload! does not exist on develop
23:10	cemerick	(despite the deft stylings of technomancy, hugod, et al.)
23:10	amalloy	sritchie: that's a weird one
23:10	dnolen	cemerick: well that shows how much you follow Emacs dev :) we don't track SLIME
23:10	technomancy	well, these days it's frozen so it's only broken for people who want to use CL...
23:10	technomancy	and they totally deserve it =P
23:10	hodapp	o_O
23:10	sritchie	at bake.reload$reload_project_files.invoke(reload.clj:47)
23:11	amalloy	sritchie: cake deps -S maybe?
23:11	cemerick	ah, see, I just get a gestalt from how many people come in with emacs/slime issues :-D
23:11	dnolen	hodapp: anyways, Enclojure works as a starting environment. Eventually you'll want something else, but you can edit code and the REPL works just fine.
23:11	amalloy	will fetch the dependencies using the stable version of cake
23:11	technomancy	cemerick: it's because only the CL users complain
23:11	technomancy	these days anyway; things were certainly a lot worse ~6 months ago
23:11	hodapp	dnolen: I'll give it a try, despite what I've heard about Netbeans.
23:11	dnolen	hodapp: JEdit works ok as well.
23:11	technomancy	or people who found outdated docs
23:12	hodapp	dnolen: REPL?
23:12	hodapp	or just editor?
23:12	cemerick	See, hardly anyone comes in complaining about eclipse/ccw…
23:12	sritchie	amalloy: cool, that worked
23:12	technomancy	but the swank internals are still mostlty just a black box to me
23:12	dnolen	it has integrated editing and REPL.
23:12	dnolen	cemerick: I haven't seen anything in it that's any more compelling than Netbeans + Enclojure.
23:13	hodapp	dnolen: Cool, I will give that a try.
23:13	cemerick	dnolen: I was trolling for a "because no one uses eclipse+ccw" response ;-)
23:13	hiredman	that is an excellent point
23:14	cemerick	And, I agree, though I'm partial to ccw's REPL architecture. I left Enclojure because NetBeans started segfaulting on a daily basis.
23:14	dnolen	hodapp: as you can see the tooling story isn't completely solved largely because what tools people want to use is ridiculously varied. So there's not a focused effort on making any one thing really great.
23:14	technomancy	enclojure has a wicked logo
23:15	cemerick	A thickey job, that.
23:15	technomancy	very nice
23:15	hiredman	technomancy: an evil or morally wrong logo?
23:15	dnolen	hodapp: Emacs tools and Lein have the lion-share of commits from outsiders it seems to me.
23:15	cemerick	outsiders?
23:16	hiredman	people who didn't actually start the project?
23:16	dnolen	# people who aren't active maintainers who submit a patch.
23:16	cemerick	hrm, interesting metric
23:17	hiredman	part of that is technomancy will let you commit to lein if you sneeze loudly and he's in the room
23:17	dnolen	hiredman: heh true enuf.
23:17	technomancy	also because I am secretly hoping to pawn off swank maintainership on anyone who displays interest.
23:17	hiredman	"you have a pulse, you should be able to commit bugfixes!"
23:17	cemerick	Doing a `git shortlog -s` on various open source projects is very interesting.
23:18	cemerick	er, `git shortlog -s \| wc`
23:18	cemerick	the smattering of languages and large libraries I looked at all had < 100 contributors, which I found surprising.
23:18	technomancy	cemerick: what languages?
23:19	hiredman	"Bagu is my name. Show my code to River Man" has 5 commits on lain
23:19	hiredman	lein
23:19	technomancy	hehe
23:19	technomancy	huh; factor is as old as the hills and only has 82 contributors
23:19	technomancy	FSVO hills
23:20	cemerick	yeah, that was one of them
23:20	cemerick	factor, jruby, clojure, some scheme impl
23:20	technomancy	104 for jruby; that's surprisingly low.
23:20	pcavs	$findfn 5 6 false
23:20	sexpbot	[clojure.core/== clojure.core/identical? clojure.core/isa? clojure.core/= clojure.core/> clojure.core/>= clojure.core/contains? clojure.core/bit-test]
23:20	pcavs	$findfn 5 5 true
23:20	sexpbot	[clojure.core/== clojure.core/identical? clojure.core/isa? clojure.core/= clojure.core/>= clojure.core/<=]
23:20	cemerick	scala as well
23:20	technomancy	5 for lisp-flavoured-erlang =)
23:21	cemerick	I was shocked by the size of the scala git repo. Metric tonne of jars in there.
23:22	technomancy	mirah let a couple sneak in too. =(
23:22	cemerick	A couple is one thing.
23:22	cemerick	Scala has ~30MB for each release AFAICT.
23:22	hiredman	:(
23:23	technomancy	eep
23:24	technomancy	I remember trying to help some poor hadoop-based project get comfortable with git.
23:24	technomancy	tried to attach a patch removing all their jars to a jira issue, and jira refused it because it was too big
23:24	technomancy	that's when I dropped everything and fled in the other direction
23:25	cemerick	I remember it taking me a solid week to scrub all the libraries from my newly-converted svn repos. filter-branch is not straightforward to use.
23:26	cemerick	nathanmarz: man of the hour! Congratulations. :-)
23:26	nathanmarz	cemerick: thanks :)
23:26	nathanmarz	gonna be rockin the clojure at twitter
23:27	ibdknox	awesome :)
23:27	cemerick	nathanmarz: so you'll continue to have free rein?
23:27	dnolen	nathanmarz: wow
23:27	cemerick	I was wondering if they'd bring the scala hammer down on you or something.
23:27	technomancy	'bout time they did something to get their searches working right =)
23:27	nathanmarz	nope, we're pretty much operating the same way
23:28	nathanmarz	total autonomy with respect to engineering
23:28	tbatchelli_	woo hoo! Twitter uses clojure!
23:28	tbatchelli_	nathanmarz: congrats!
23:30	pcavs	nathanmarz: congrats indeed
23:31	nathanmarz	our team is still hiring, just in case you guys were wondering :)
23:32	cemerick	I'm guessing that that's not well-known
23:34	amalloy	cemerick: are you kidding? he just told #clojure - it'll be all over the interwebs by dawn
23:34	ibdknox	nathanmarz: If ReadyForZero hadn't scooped me up, I probably would've been knocking on your door :)
23:34	technomancy	anyone up for some last-minute testing of lein 1.6.1 before I push it out?
23:36	amalloy	nathanmarz: i would've included you guys in my tour of clojure companies a couple months ago if i'd known. certainly would be more convenient to stay in sf
23:37	nathanmarz	amalloy: where'd you end up going?
23:37	amalloy	nathanmarz: geni with ninjudd/lancepantz
23:38	amalloy	(in LA)
23:39	technomancy	LA felt like a wasteland for hackers when I was there
23:39	technomancy	I guess there's a Clojure group now?
23:39	technomancy	I remember driving 40 minutes with a friend to a Ruby meetup in a Starbucks where one other guy showed up.
23:39	amalloy	technomancy: yeah, not as large as the sf group, but not way smaller
23:40	amalloy	hah, ouch
23:40	amalloy	it was probably a trap set by some python devs
23:40	nathanmarz	factual (in LA) is using clojure quite a bit now afaik
23:41	amalloy	nathanmarz: yeah, they host the meetup
23:41	technomancy	well you know what they say about LA... "There is no life east of PCH."
23:41	technomancy	(pacific coast highway)
23:42	amalloy	which reminds me, i need to talk to ninjudd about giving a presentation on deftype on thursday
23:46	pcavs	maybe I should move out to this famed "west coast"
23:46	amalloy	pcavs: there's some good stuff in new york too, isn't there?
23:46	nathanmarz	cemerick: lol on tweeting that out right now
23:46	pcavs	amalloy: sadly I wouldn't know, I'm in Boston
23:47	cemerick	nathanmarz: shoulda been a muckraker :-P
23:47	technomancy	boston has an awesome clojure group!
23:47	pcavs	but yes, I've heard some pretty good things about NYC, although I fear a lot of it is soul-less financial based fast paced arbitrage =\
23:47	pcavs	techomancy: really? I should go, but there's nothing up on their meetup
23:48	technomancy	pcavs: well, there have only been two meetings, and I ran one of them
23:48	pcavs	haha
23:48	cemerick	We had ~30 people at a Clojure meetup here in sleepy Northampton, MA.
23:48	technomancy	wow, nice
23:49	amalloy	i wonder if cemerick is in some parallel universe
23:49	technomancy	I think part of the thing that intimidates people from starting groups is the idea that you have to have presentations and speakers. that stuff doesn't scale.
23:49	cemerick	There's actually a pretty strong undercurrent of old lisp hackers + machine learning types around here. UMass, 5 colleges, etc.
23:49	cemerick	amalloy: ?
23:50	cemerick	technomancy: that, and people are a little lazy ;-)
23:50	amalloy	it's just impossible that there should be that many clojure hackers in a town described as "sleepy"
23:50	cemerick	amalloy: not Clojure hackers — programmers of all stripes, interested in a modern, accessible Lisp
23:50	technomancy	cemerick: just set aside a monthly hack night for your own purposes, and start inviting people to co-hack =)
23:50	pcavs	cemerick: if you held a meet up even in Northhampton I'd drive out there
23:50	zakwilson	I talked about Clojure to a meeting of a .NET users group.
23:51	cemerick	Though I know of ~6 local devs that have Clojure in production.
23:52	cemerick	technomancy: Don't worry about me, I've been getting developer groups together for almost 10 years now.
23:52	pcavs	I'd love to host a meet up if I had space and expertise in Clojure besides my dabbling...hmm 0 for 2
23:52	cemerick	We had some heavy hitters coming around when I had office space to hold big talks.
23:52	technomancy	pcavs: we meet in a coffee shop
23:52	technomancy	happens to be the biggest coffee shop I have ever seen in my life, but it's just a coffee shop. =)
23:53	pcavs	technomancy: Haha, perhaps I will do the same
23:53	cemerick	pcavs: Where are you? If you're in the area, join http://groups.google.com/group/wmassdevs/ and you'll know when stuff is going on
23:53	pcavs	I need to get off of this terrible netbook. Even using it to ssh to my beefy desktop is a little rough. I see a MacBook Pro in my future.
23:54	pcavs	cemerick: I'm in Boston, but I'm desperate enough to get out there.
23:54	ibdknox	speaking of user groups, anyone going to the bay area clojure meetup thursday?
23:55	cemerick	pcavs: oh, surely there's stuff going on out there. Boston lispers at the very least?
23:55	pcavs	cemerick: I'm probably not just tapped into the community as much as I could be
23:55	tbatchelli_	ibdknok: I am going
23:55	cemerick	pcavs: FWIW, racket con is happening this month — it's free, and I'm sure some Clojure people will be there. http://con.racket-lang.org/
23:55	cemerick	(e.g. probably me)
23:56	pcavs	cemerick: yea I was looking forward to that
23:56	cemerick	They say you don't have to be a schemer to go, but I wonder what they'd do if they were swarmed by Clojure devs.