#clojure – 2011-06-24

2011-06-24

00:06	gko	I don't use leiningen/cake, only REPL+files+ad hoc scripts: are they like ASDF/quicklisp of CL?
00:08	cemerick	gko: lein and cake both provide dependency management via the maven model; so yes, they're similar to quicklisp in that respect.
00:09	symbole	cemerick: Pretty much. It would be nice to be able to extend the editor based on interfaces, and not on assigning values to seemblingly random global variables.
00:09	cemerick	I agree.
00:09	cemerick	Tough road to tread, tho not because of the language.
00:10	gko	cemerick: lein vs cake: which one is better?
00:11	gko	got it :)
00:12	gko	are they both matures?
00:12	cemerick	gko: FWIW, AFAICT, lein drives the "standard" for project.clj files, and it's been around longer, and its more widely used. Cake provides some nifty bits that lein doesn't though.
00:13	cemerick	Both are used for real projects in real companies, if that is a reasonable barometer.
00:13	gko	do they download JARs for each project or they put them in a common pool?
00:14	cemerick	Both of them reuse maven's ~/.m2 repository structure IIRC.
00:14	cemerick	There was some talk of cake switching to use ivy, but I don't know how that settled out.
00:14	cemerick	gko: so, the latter, though each lib needs to be downloaded at least once of course.
00:15	gko	cemerick: OK... I intend to put all that stuff in my Dropbox directory...
00:15	cemerick	stuff?
00:16	gko	cemerick: all these JARs, etc...
00:16	cemerick	gko: yeah, don't do that. :-) Back up ~, but don't put any effort into curating your own store of jars.
00:17	gko	cemerick: well, If leiningen/cake does the work, for the better...
00:18	cemerick	exactly; dependency management means never touching jars directly
00:47	technomancy	gko: to be honest, it seems to me like most people who learn clojure aren't to keen on going back to CL
00:47	technomancy	it can be done, but I'm not sure how. wouldn't be surprised if you had to keep them in separate Emacs instances
00:49	technomancy	*too keen
00:49	technomancy	the fact that the slime devs say "just use CVS" with a straight face may have something to do with it
00:51	cemerick	keeps out the riff-raff
01:02	technomancy	anybody try that vagrant script?
01:02	tomoj	clojure-box?
01:03	tomoj	oh, found it
01:22	gko	technomancy: that's what I do now... Emacs 1: use CVS or ELPA version; if use other Lisp: open Emacs 2 and corresponding SLIME.
01:24	gko	technomancy: regarding not going back to CL: quicklisp happened and it's a whole new world :)
01:24	technomancy	gko: it's impossible to make stable releases that are compatible with a constantly-changing target like slime CVS
01:24	technomancy	their release management is simply irresponsible
01:24	technomancy	hopefully quicklisp puts some pressure on them to go out of cowboy mode; who knows
01:25	gko	technomancy: agreed. Another solution would be to change ELPA version so that CVS and ELPA versions don't collide and can be used on the same instance.
01:26	technomancy	key bindings would still conflict
01:28	gko	technomancy: in CL REPL/buffers, use CL semantics, in Clojure REPL/buffers, use Clojure semantics?
01:30	technomancy	it's not that simple; you'd have to have two copies of every single slime function, and you'd have to also have a third function for each binding that would detect the major mode and dispatch to the right version
01:31	technomancy	it would be easier to make swank-clojure work with current slime CVS, but then it would just break in another month or so, so it's hard to get the motivation
01:40	gko	technomancy: what I meant was to make the ELPA version totally separated from the CVS version, it would be called something like SCIME, so that there are no common names... SLIME (M-x slime) for CL, SCIME (M-x scime) for Clojure.
01:41	gko	Of course, it would a permanent temporary solution...
01:41	technomancy	could work. but I'm not gonna do it. =)
01:42	gko	technomancy: of course not, you focus on clojure & contribs :)
01:42	justinlilly	technomancy: it worked for me in the updated version, fwiw.
01:42	justinlilly	though I had trouble getting jack-in to work with the seajure website.
01:42	justinlilly	some large exception that I just ignored.
01:43	technomancy	justinlilly: hm; I actually only tested jark
01:43	technomancy	kind of attached to the idea of launching jark in ~/.profile though; I may add that to my host
01:44	justinlilly	do it. it already takes forever for the thing to come up from nothing.
01:44	technomancy	oh, the vagrant script already launches jark in .profile =)
01:46	technomancy	it's not much different from lein install swank-clojure 1.3.1 and ~/.lein/bin/swank-clojure though I guess
01:48	feng	help
01:52	feng	13:49 -clojurebot- recently on clojars.org: #{"org.clojars.mschristiansen/lein-beanstalk"}
07:47	tsdh	Hi
07:50	tsdh	I have a function that produces a finite lazy seq + an alternative eager version. The eager version is about 6 times faster. However, if I replace calls to the lazy fn to calls to the eager version, performance doesn't increase too much, although in my tests, I nearly always realize the seqs completely.
07:52	tsdh	The only explanation that I can come up is that (map foo (lazy)) possibly applies foo even before lazy is completely calculated while (map foo (eager)) first computes the seq and then reiterates it mapping to foo. Is something like that correct?
07:53	manutter	tsdh: it certainly true that (map foo (lazy)) will start mapping before lazy finishes computing -- that's what "lazy" means
07:54	tsdh	manutter: Ok, then I'm happy my guess is correct. :-)
07:55	manutter	The lazy seq should come back much quicker than the eager one for the same reason.
07:56	manutter	You said it was generating the eager seq more quickly than the lazy seq, though? Is that right?
07:56	tsdh	manutter: Yes, that's the case. (eager) is 6 times faster than (doall (lazy)).
07:56	manutter	oh, faster than lazy inside a doall
07:57	manutter	that kinda makes sense though I'm surprised the lazy would be six times slower than the eager
07:58	manutter	but if the code to generate the seq is really small/fast, I suppose the lazy-seq overhead could be relatively large by comparison.
07:59	manutter	or there could be some inefficiencies in how you're generating the lazy version.
07:59	tsdh	manutter: Yeah, the seqs are generated using fast first/next java methods in some external lib. There's no expensive calculation involved.
08:00	manutter	ok, that makes sense
08:00	manutter	You know about the built-in iterators for Java objects?
08:01	manutter	(hmm, now I'm trying to look it up real quick on clojuredocs.org and I'm having trouble remembering)
08:01	tsdh	manutter: Yeah, but the lazy seq thing has the charme of not being fail-fast. For example, using them I can do (map delete! (vseq mygraph)) which modifies the seq while iteration.
08:02	manutter	ah, here we go
08:02	manutter	,(doc iterator-seq)
08:02	clojurebot	"([iter]); Returns a seq on a java.util.Iterator. Note that most collections providing iterators implement Iterable and thus support seq directly."
08:03	manutter	I believe that is lazy out of the box, if your Java object supports Iterable
08:03	manutter	haven't played with it much tho
08:03	tsdh	manutter: My lazy seqs support some additional features over the java counterparts.
08:03	manutter	gotcha
08:04	tsdh	manutter: And what happens if the underlying iterator throws a ConcurrentModificationException?
08:04	manutter	well, ordinary exception handling (or lack thereof, if you're not using try/catch)
08:05	manutter	that would be my guess anyway--like I said, I don't have much experience with it
08:06	tsdh	manutter: No, what I wanted to say is that iterators throw while my lazy seqs allow for modification on iteration. I don't want to lose that feature.
08:07	manutter	yeah, gotcha
08:07	manutter	that is, "gotcha" as in "I see what you're saying" not as in "I see a problem" :)
08:08	manutter	irc is nice but it doesn't carry tone of voice too well...
08:08	tsdh	manutter: Ok, now I think you see what I'm saying. :-)
08:08	manutter	I do, and I see the advantages of your approach
08:10	tsdh	Ok, I'm digging a bit more in the code to see where I can boost performance...
08:31	clgv	I just wondered about 'type vs 'class: the difference according to doc is that type will return the value of metadata attribute :type if present and otherwise the class. when or by what is :type metadata set?
08:40	clgv	hmmm :type is apparently not used in clojure.core 1.2
08:43	clgv	oh 1.3-beta1 was released :)
09:28	gfrlog	(defn identity [x] (type (with-meta {} {:type x})))
09:29	clgv	gfrlog: not the straight forward use case for it that I would have thought of ;)
09:30	clgv	but since it is not used in core, I assume it's build for application specific use.
10:00	Scriptor	int
10:04	timvisher	hey all
10:04	timvisher	who wants to help explain this behavior? https://gist.github.com/1044816
10:04	timvisher	I have a map with a key pointing to a long
10:04	timvisher	when I print that at the repl, everything's fine
10:05	timvisher	if i do anything at all with it, the number turns to 0
10:05	timvisher	including (first ...) or (into #{} ...)
10:05	timvisher	and i haven't the foggiest why
10:08	pjstadig	not enough information to debug
10:08	pjstadig	what to from-long and to-long do
10:09	pjstadig	where is fs/mtime coming from?
10:09	timvisher	or (pr ...) for that matter
10:09	pjstadig	what is happening during the snip? is the filesystem changing?
10:09	timvisher	fs/mtime is from the fs library
10:10	timvisher	$google clojure fs
10:10	sexpbot	First out of 2760 results is: ClojureWise: fs - File system utilities for Clojure
10:10	sexpbot	http://clojurewise.blogspot.com/2011/01/fs-file-system-utilities-for-clojure.html
10:10	timvisher	time is clj-time
10:10	timvisher	$google clj-time
10:10	sexpbot	First out of 61800 results is: clj-time \| Clojars
10:10	sexpbot	http://clojars.org/clj-time
10:10	timvisher	those
10:10	timvisher	the snip is me clipping another 678kb of data
10:10	timvisher	this is a 'large' seq (by my thought, at least)
10:11	timvisher	my point was that the first element can clearly be seen to have the long intact before i call first on it
10:11	timvisher	once i call first it turns to a 0
10:11	pjstadig	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/File.html#lastModified()
10:11	timvisher	to-long turns a joba time DateTime into a long
10:11	timvisher	and then from-long converts a long to a DateTime
10:12	timvisher	I'm familiar with what mtime is doing under the covers
10:12	timvisher	that's the whole idea. i'm basically backporting an addition I just made to my app that includes dates
10:12	timvisher	I can't serialize the DateTime the way i've serialized stuff so far so i need to convert it to something read can deal with
10:13	timvisher	so that i can spit it out to a file and then read it back in
10:13	timvisher	but in memory i'd like it to be a DateTime
10:13	pjstadig	lastModified returns 0 if there's an i/o error or if the file does not exist
10:13	timvisher	sweet
10:13	timvisher	but that doesn't explain what i'm seeing
10:14	timvisher	if i don't do anything to the seq resulting from the map, it prints with the expected values
10:14	timvisher	it's only when i use the map that it turns to 0
10:14	timvisher	that's the point of the first line
10:14	timvisher	the 2 :imported-ats
10:14	pjstadig	well you're doing a complex operation here
10:14	pjstadig	(ref (map #(assoc % :imported-at (time-coerce/from-long (fs/mtime (wallpaper->thumbnail-path %)))
10:14	pjstadig	and here (map #(assoc % :imported-at (time-coerce/to-long (:imported-at %))) @library))
10:15	pjstadig	the best thing would be to break it apart piece by piece and see that the values are what you are expecting
10:15	timvisher	i've been at the repl for an hour over this, I could gist my whole log if that would help
10:15	timvisher	in general though, i've done that
10:15	timvisher	i've picked it apart piece by peace
10:15	timvisher	piece*
10:15	timvisher	everything returns what I want it to until i do something to the map
10:15	timvisher	and then the number turns to 0
10:16	timvisher	could this have something to do with them being primitive longs?
10:16	pjstadig	what is preferences-home?
10:16	pjstadig	you're binding preferences to {:library-cache-path "/Users/tim/Desktop/library.clj"}
10:16	timvisher	it's a path-prefix string
10:16	pjstadig	do those comport with each other?
10:17	timvisher	yes
10:17	timvisher	preferences is a map that i load from a file
10:17	timvisher	preferences-home is another var that has the default prefix
10:17	timvisher	not terribly proud of that but haven't gotten around to doing something better yet
10:18	timvisher	essentially, in the main app I have a ref called library that stores a big 'ol hash-set
10:18	dpritchett`	speaking of which i have a tiny noir app and i need a place to store my mysql password
10:19	timvisher	i make edits to that and every once in a while a serialize the datastructure to disk
10:19	timvisher	in a format that can be read by read-string
10:19	dpritchett`	would a .clj file with a single def containing my secrets accessed via load-file at runtime be a good starting point?
10:19	timvisher	so far, this has worked beautifully
10:19	dpritchett`	or is there a standard config file pattern
10:19	timvisher	i've been trying since yesterday though to add a imported-at key to the structure
10:19	timvisher	and it's the first java object that i'm introducing, thus my need to serialize it with conversion and then read it with conversion
10:19	timvisher	and that's where i discovered this behavior
10:20	timvisher	dpritchett: that's what has worked for me up until now
10:20	timvisher	as long as your storing your password as a string it works great
10:21	timvisher	just make sure you don't add it source control! :)
10:21	timvisher	pjstadig: does that make any more sense?
10:22	clgv	dpritchett`: you could add the config-file in your home in a ".yourapplication/" folder
10:22	timvisher	dpritchett: what's also nice is that if you do testing, you can use binding forms to override the default value and point at a different db
10:22	dpritchett`	clgv how would i access it though
10:23	dpritchett`	(load-file ".myapp/dbsecrets.clj") ?
10:23	timvisher	different: no, you need a full path to it
10:23	timvisher	or make sure it's relative to launch point
10:23	pjstadig	timvisher: you're using a ref and the filesystem, assuming that the functions in your pipeline are pure, either some state is changing on you, or some of those functions in your pipeline are not producing the values you think they are
10:24	timvisher	so if you store it in ~/.myapp/foo.clj then you need to get the home location and str them together
10:24	timvisher	i'm a big fan of fs
10:25	clgv	dpritchett`: like timvisher said you would have to gain the full path. maybe there is some java.io that does resolution for you. would be great since "~" probably makes no sense on windows ;)
10:25	dpritchett`	so i can't just use ~ to refer to the home location, I have to figure ito ut myself?
10:25	timvisher	java doesn't understand ~
10:25	dpritchett`	my app is mostly a toy and it's intended to be run serverside on linux fwiw
10:25	cemerick	~ is a shell thing
10:25	clojurebot	@ has nothing to do with whether sth is evaluated or not
10:25	timvisher	fs has a home function
10:26	timvisher	you don't have to store it in ~
10:26	timvisher	you could also just store it relative to the root of the war/jar/project folder
10:26	timvisher	then you wouldn't need a full path
10:26	timvisher	the point i was making was simply that you can't use ~ to refer to user home
10:26	dpritchett`	so we're talking http://clojars.org/fs ?
10:27	timvisher	dpritchett: that's what i use to interact with the filesystem
10:27	timvisher	it's a nice wrapper over File as well as some other nice functions for processing trees of files
10:27	timvisher	and you get to refer to files by there path, rather than as objects, which is nice
10:27	dpritchett`	i think i'll just use a relative path for now... I am not exactly concerned with a perfect solution i just want to get the password out of my code
10:28	dpritchett`	then i'll gitignore the config file and push it out
10:28	timvisher	pjstadig: if you're saying that state must be changing outside of the run-time and thus messing with my results, that's a good point, but it still doesn't seem to explain what I'm seeing
10:28	timvisher	i can run those 2 functions over and over again and they return the same results every time
10:29	timvisher	if they were changing the state i'm reading, i'd expect the results to change
10:29	pjstadig	map is lazy
10:29	pjstadig	so the time between when you call map and when you print or first the seq...things can happen
10:29	timvisher	again, i totally agree with you, but if that was happening, you'd expect the results to be different every time, wouldn't you?
10:30	timvisher	i suppose i could do-run on the map
10:30	pjstadig	maybe it's not the solution, but it's all i got
10:30	timvisher	but the repl forces lazy seqs anyway
10:30	timvisher	that's cool. thanks for your help. this behavior is just baffling to me
10:30	pjstadig	if i were you i'd break apart those complex pieces of code, and try to test things in isolation
10:30	timvisher	that's what i've been doing
10:30	pjstadig	right
10:30	timvisher	everything works exactly as expected until i use the map
10:30	pjstadig	so maybe i'm not helping :) :(
10:30	timvisher	seq
10:31	timvisher	you're at least providing an ear to rant to. :)
10:31	pjstadig	the fact that lastModified returns 0 on an i/o error or if the file is missing seems like a good lead to me
10:31	pjstadig	that would explain seeing 0 for imported-at
10:32	pjstadig	and the fact that lastModified is accessing the file system which can change while you're not looking also seems like a good lead
10:32	pjstadig	but i agree it's weird that it is reproducible
10:33	dpritchett`	so i am using clojure.contrib.sql/with-query-results to pull from mysql and i haven't yet figured out the proper way to e.g. post the results to an html template before the connection closes
10:33	dpritchett`	i have one function that gets me the recordset and can format/print it
10:33	dpritchett`	and i have another that responds to an http request using noir's defpage macro at the url "/posts"
10:33	dpritchett`	haven't figured out how to compose this exactly
10:34	dpritchett`	Does anyone know of a good example of a simple CMS app using contrib.sql ?
10:35	clgv	do I still have to use DateTime/now or is there something in clojure 1.2.1 or contrib?
10:35	clgv	I want to use the timestamp as ID
10:36	timvisher	clgv: could you be looking for clj-time?
10:36	clgv	since I dont need any real ID management but only a reference between datasets on disk
10:36	timvisher	$google clj-time
10:36	sexpbot	First out of 61800 results is: clj-time \| Clojars
10:36	sexpbot	http://clojars.org/clj-time
10:36	pjstadig	,(.getTime (Date.))
10:36	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: Date
10:36	pjstadig	,(.getTime (java.util.Date.))
10:36	clojurebot	1308926197290
10:36	pjstadig	can work as a timestamp
10:36	pjstadig	and can be compared easily
10:38	clgv	yep. I just dont want to build an own function if there is one already.
10:38	pjstadig	there is one though...it's the method on the Date class
10:39	clgv	I saw it ;)
10:39	pjstadig	suit yourself :)
10:42	cemerick	or ##(System/currentTimeMillis)
10:42	sexpbot	⟹ 1308926534365
10:42	pjstadig	ja, was just going to say that, too
10:44	clgv	cemerick: precise one :)
10:44	timvisher	so if i do the same operation without binding library, i'm golden. https://gist.github.com/1044912
10:44	manutter	timvisher: Hey, I saw your questions about daylight time yesterday (it was in my scrollback) Did you ever get that figured out?
10:44	timvisher	with binding but with refs, still broken https://gist.github.com/1044918
10:45	timvisher	manutter: yes and know
10:45	timvisher	no*
10:45	clgv	just checked: (-> (System/currentTimeMillis) (java.util.Date.)) to be sure that it isnt relative to system start ;)
10:45	timvisher	i figured out a way to do it
10:46	timvisher	what i didn't figure out is why (time-zone-for-id "US/Eastern") and (time-zone-for-offset -5) don't return the same thing
10:46	manutter	timvisher: that is odd, unless US/Eastern is auto-updating for DST
10:47	timvisher	that's what i mean
10:47	gfrlog	Us/Eastern should be an atom that gets swapped every 6 months
10:47	timvisher	any of the relevant string ids (i.e. "America/New_York") all auto update to DST
10:47	cemerick	gfrlog: The earth probably won't exist by the time the long overflows.
10:47	cemerick	,(java.util.Date. Long/MAX_VALUE)
10:47	clojurebot	#<Date Sat Aug 16 23:12:55 PST 292278994>
10:47	cemerick	Or humanity will be extinct, whatever.
10:48	gfrlog	cemerick: you mean the earth probably won't exist BECAUSE the long overflows
10:48	timvisher	they return different types
10:48	manutter	cemerick: yeah, maybe if we were better prepared for Y2G it would be the end of everything
10:49	clgv	lol earth wont exist because of suns death by then ;)
10:49	timvisher	one is a CachedDateTimeZone and the other is a FixedDateTimeZone
10:49	manutter	yeah, but the sun uses an old MS timestamp...
10:49	timvisher	but the semantics of the functions then seem strange
10:49	timvisher	when i sign up for a site and they ask me for my GMT offset, i say 5 without thinking and they select US/Eastern
10:49	timvisher	-5*
10:50	gfrlog	what's 5? Israel?
10:50	timvisher	whereas it seems that if I want to use for-offset i'd have to keep track of whether that person is currently in DST
10:50	timvisher	to add or subtract an hour
10:50	timvisher	or whatever crazy thing that country is doing this year
10:50	manutter	timvisher: I haven't worked enough with Java dates to discuss the technical details beyond a certain rather shallow depth
10:51	timvisher	it's my first real forray as well so hurray to us! :)
10:51	clgv	timvisher: turkey switched DST later this year with an absurd reason^^
10:51	manutter	I did see a link on joda.org about updating the timezones manually
10:51	manutter	apparently that's an issue for people stuck using older jvm version
10:51	manutter	*versions
10:51	timvisher	i just know that everything i've read about joda time up until now made me think that it did DST magically, which it _does_ so long as you don't get that FixedDateTimeZone back
10:51	timvisher	i just don't know why you'd ever want that.
10:52	timvisher	maybe if you wanted to stick it people dumb enough to live in countries with DST (like me! ;)
10:52	cemerick	clgv: The sun still has some billions of years to it yet, no? Or am I forgetting my local astrophysics timelines?
10:52	timvisher	cemerick: you're thinking of alpha centauri
10:52	timvisher	you have a suprisingly wide scope of local astrophysics ;)
10:52	timvisher	the sun's going in a few years
10:53	timvisher	don't worry though
10:53	clgv	cemerick: oh humm that number is only 292 million - well, guess I have to check ;)
10:53	timvisher	the government'll get us all relocated
10:53	gfrlog	hairdressers and marketing folks on the first ship
10:53	timvisher	anyone else had a chance to look at this seq problem i'm having?
10:54	manutter	Just put a dollar in the bank now, at 3% interest by the year 292M you'll be able to buy a whole solar system somewhere else.
10:54	cemerick	timvisher: A billion here, a billion there :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Life_cycle
10:54	timvisher	manutter: that's why i don't invest in stocks
10:54	Scriptor	we're just about about halfway through the sun, I believe
10:54	tsdh	Is there a problem with generating and executing gazillions of identical anonymous functions (performance and maybe garbage collection wise)?
10:54	clgv	cemerick: damn. ok we need bigger integer types! ;)
10:55	Scriptor	manutter: or dine at a fabulously expensive restaurant and watch the universe end :)
10:55	Scriptor	tsdh: why are they identical?
10:55	Scriptor	or are you generating billions of closures?
10:56	tsdh	Scriptor: Well, not identical but equivalent.
10:56	gfrlog	can the number of functions generated be expressed by a Long?
10:57	tsdh	Scriptor: Basically, I have a type-matcher function that returns a function that accepts elements of some types. That is used in some lazy seq producing fn, and in each iteration step a new type-matcher for the same type is produced.
10:57	stuartsierra	tsdh: Every occurrence of `fn` in your code generates one Java class. Every time that fn expression is evaluated, it generates one instance of that class.
10:58	tsdh	Scriptor, stuartsierra: Now I wondered if it would improve performance if I refactored the code so that only one type-matcher instance is produced and passed along.
10:58	gfrlog	stuartsierra: the instance holds the closure information?
10:58	timvisher	anyone know why a long at the repl would suddenly turn to 0 upon looking at it putting it somewhere else?
10:59	timvisher	i.e. https://gist.github.com/1044816
10:59	timvisher	/s/looking at it/
10:59	timvisher	anyone know why a long at the repl would suddenly turn to 0 upon putting it somewhere else?
10:59	gfrlog	timvisher: is that the most minimal example you can get?
10:59	timvisher	hmm. was that /s supposed to work?
10:59	timvisher	no
10:59	timvisher	i'll work on getting it more minimal
11:00	timvisher	actually, is that minimal enough?
11:00	timvisher	https://gist.github.com/1044918
11:00	timvisher	i removed the binding and all of that
11:00	timvisher	it's still fairly complex
11:00	timvisher	baha
11:00	timvisher	sorry, ignore that
11:00	gfrlog	there's all this stuff with these libraries I don't know anything about...
11:00	timvisher	have too many gists going
11:00	timvisher	i'll work on something new
11:00	gfrlog	usually if you try to strip out all the ancillary stuff at some step you'll figure out the real culprit
11:01	timvisher	how do i produce a primitive long on purpose?
11:01	gfrlog	do it by accident and then later claim you meant to
11:01	timvisher	lol
11:01	timvisher	that's what fs/mtime is doing so i want to remove that call
11:01	manutter	timvisher: I dunno, I looked at that code and I think you should call Schrodinger and tell him you found his cat.
11:02	clgv	roflmao!
11:02	Scriptor	tsdh: presumably it would be more performant, benchmarks would be pretty interesting to see just to get an idea of how all the class generation affects clojure performance
11:02	stuartsierra	gfrlog: yes
11:03	gfrlog	stuartsierra: cool.
11:03	stuartsierra	The instance holds the values of closed-over locals.
11:03	Scriptor	also, see if maybe you could refactor it into just one function and generate a ton of closures of it instead?
11:03	timvisher	manutter: that's what i've been looking to hear all morning! :)
11:04	stuartsierra	In general, you want to avoid generating hugh numbers classes (which can happen with `eval`). Generating huge numbers of instances (closures) should not be a problem.
11:04	timvisher	so, no one knows how to produce a long on purpose?
11:04	clgv	&(Long. 5)
11:04	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.lang.Long
11:05	timvisher	,(long 5)
11:05	clojurebot	5
11:05	timvisher	that look about right?
11:05	gfrlog	,(.longValue (long 3))
11:05	clgv	&(type (long 5))
11:05	clojurebot	3
11:05	sexpbot	⟹ java.lang.Long
11:05	timvisher	god i've gotten lazy
11:05	gfrlog	docs say that Long#longValue returns a primitive
11:05	timvisher	does type do autoboxing?
11:05	gfrlog	don't know what clojure will do to it though
11:05	tsdh	Scriptor: Hm, now I refactored the function that way, and the performance is only very slightly increased. With ~1 million type-matcher each producing a new instance it takes 330ms, with one instance passed along it takes 270ms. So it seems it's not worth it.
11:06	clgv	the random version: ##(if (< (rand) 0.5) (long 5) (double 5))
11:06	sexpbot	⟹ 5
11:06	stuartsierra	Starting in 1.3, all integer literals are longs. They will be primitive if used only in a primitive context. Anywhere else they will be boxed as java.lang.Long.
11:06	stuartsierra	Most Clojure functions, such as type, do not support primitives, so auto-boxing occurs.
11:06	cemerick	timvisher: All primitives are boxed at function boundaries, unless the function in question has primitive type decls.
11:06	Scriptor	tsdh: see if you can check memory consumption too, just in case the gc isn't able to keep up
11:07	Scriptor	otherwise, an 18% speedup isn't all that bad :)
11:07	timvisher	,(doc long)
11:07	clojurebot	"([x]); Coerce to long"
11:07	timvisher	does that mean Coerce to Long?
11:07	Scriptor	,(doc apply-macro)
11:07	clojurebot	No entiendo
11:07	timvisher	or is that really be a bonafide `long`?
11:08	gfrlog	timvisher: does your code not break if you substitute (long 5) for your function call?
11:08	tsdh	Scriptor: Memory is hard to measure. In any case, the requirements of these functions should be negligible in comparison to the data.
11:08	gfrlog	(or (long 6) if necessary)
11:09	timvisher	i'm working on making this simpler, i just want to know if I'm on the right track for replacing that call to fs
11:09	tsdh	Scriptor: Well, yes, the speedup is not that bad, but now the interface is 50% worse. Before users would call (vseq mygraph 'SomeType), now it's (vseq mygraph (type-matcher mygraph 'SomeType))...
11:11	Scriptor	ah, maybe not worth it then, though you maybe vseq could be implemented as a wrapper macro that rewrites it that way for you?
11:11	cemerick	timvisher: it returns a long, but will get boxed into a Long if you're just passing the result on to a fn that doesn't support primitives.
11:11	cemerick	Or, it yields a long, I should say.
11:12	Scriptor	how fast is java's instanceof? Asking because first/rest invoke it every call
11:12	timvisher	wow. i'm an idiot
11:12	timvisher	sorry everyone
11:12	tsdh	Scriptor: vseq is a protocol function that recursively calls itself in a lazy-cat.
11:12	timvisher	i wasn't binding one of the keys i needed in the function and so pjstadig was right all along!
11:13	timvisher	the path i was accessing didn't exist and thus mtime was returning 0
11:13	timvisher	at binding time they existed because the preferences var hadn't been overwritten yet
11:13	timvisher	i hate state...
11:13	timvisher	should've been associng onto preferences rather than completely resetting it
11:14	Scriptor	tsdh: ah, you're right, sorry for the confusion
11:14	timvisher	thanks so much for everyones help
11:15	gfrlog	timvisher: did you figure it out while trying to minimize the example?
11:16	timvisher	yeah
11:16	gfrlog	:)
11:16	timvisher	which was also pjstadig advice
11:16	timvisher	which i'd been doing for an hour
11:16	timvisher	i just never though to not use mtime and instead insert a fixed long value
11:16	gfrlog	my strategy is to just delete random characters and see what happens
11:17	timvisher	have an emacs function that does that for you? :)
11:17	pjstadig	timvisher: glad you figured it out!
11:18	tsdh	Scriptor: Hm, but I could make a vseq function that creates a type-matcher and rename the protocol methods to vseq-1. Is there something like a private protocol?
11:18	timvisher	pjstadig: me too!
11:18	timvisher	as a meta question, why does the repls forced eval not exhibit the behavior that firsts eval does?
11:20	pjstadig	i'll tell you why
11:20	pjstadig	map is lazy
11:21	pjstadig	the seq escapes the binding form in one case
11:21	pjstadig	but not in another
11:21	timvisher	ah hah
11:21	pjstadig	stupid laziness :)
11:22	timvisher	so the seq comes out of the binding form having not been evaluated and then gets evaluated in the unbound context
11:22	timvisher	brilliant
11:22	timvisher	makes perfect sense
11:22	pjstadig	vars and binding are a form of state
11:24	tsdh	Hm, the docs specify (defprotocol name & opts+sigs) but don't mention what opts can be except the optional docscring...
11:26	gfrlog	,(source defprotocol)
11:26	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
11:26	pjstadig	~source defprotocol
11:28	timvisher	anyone else using clojure-jack-in in emacs?
11:31	mattmitchell	is there a non-lazy concat? or, a recursive doall?
11:32	dnolen	mattmitchell: you can always make concat non-lazy by wrapping in doall.
11:34	mattmitchell	dnolen: ok that does work, however i am composing a data structure out of a hash-map and embedded laz seqs via concat. I would like to not have to worry about using doall all over my code, and instead use doall at the last minute. But it doesn't seem to eval the nested lazy seqs. Does that make sense?
11:35	dnolen	mattmitchell: you can use doall at the last minute, doall will only operate on the lazyseq it's applied to, not nested ones.
11:35	dnolen	s/can/can't
11:35	sexpbot	<dnolen> mattmitchell: you can't use doall at the last minute, doall will only operate on the lazyseq it's applied to, not nested ones.
11:36	mattmitchell	dnolen: ok good to know. I've been looking at this too... seem like a good/bad idea? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1217131/recursive-doall-in-clojure
11:37	dnolen	mattmitchell: I'm curious as to why you need to force them.
11:38	mattmitchell	dnolen: yeah i'm still trying to figure this out. I might be doing something wrong here.
11:38	dnolen	mattmitchell: what about your problem requires you to force them?
11:39	pjstadig	i've run into the problem of doing concat of concats of concats to build up a structure, and once it gets forced at the end you get a stack overflow exception
11:39	pjstadig	and it was fixed but just doing (doall (concat ...))
11:39	pjstadig	instead of waiting until the end
11:40	gfrlog	no matter how many times I encounter that issue I can never remember why it happens
11:40	dnolen	gfrlog: recursive applications of concat is almost always the culprit
11:40	pjstadig	there's also the issue of a lazy seq escaping a scope like with-open or something
11:40	gfrlog	dnolen: like (concat a (concat b (concat c (...))))?
11:40	pjstadig	but again you can doall at the appropriate levels to get around that
11:41	dnolen	gfrlog: if you have 5000 unrealized concats, you're gonna get stackoverflow when you try to pull out the first item.
11:41	gfrlog	dnolen: I guess I can't convince myself it's necessary, given the way laziness is handled elsewhere without stacking
11:41	mattmitchell	dnolen i think actually, i'm wrong. I need to dig a little bit more before I can explain what's happening here :)
11:41	gfrlog	dnolen: 5000 nested (lazy-seq)s generally would do the same thing?
11:42	dnolen	gfrlog: exactly.
11:42	gfrlog	dnolen: I wonder why everybody's so prone to do it with concat then...
11:42	gfrlog	could concat be rewritten to avoid that?
11:43	pjstadig	perhaps we should all make more use of into
11:43	pjstadig	and infact i guess into is really a "non-lazy" concat
11:43	dnolen	gfrlog: I don't see the point, since it applies to lazyseqs in general.
11:43	gfrlog	dnolen: but apparently concat is the only place it tends to pop up
11:44	dnolen	gfrlog: only because it's commonly used in recursive operations, special casing concat sounds meh.
11:45	__name__	$source into
11:45	sexpbot	into is http://is.gd/uvV1dc
11:46	gfrlog	dnolen: well if it's meh then let's not do it
11:50	pjstadig	only problem with into vs. concat is
11:50	pjstadig	,(into '(:d :e) [:a :b :c])
11:50	clojurebot	(:c :b :a :d :e)
11:50	pjstadig	,(concat '(:d :e) [:a :b :c])
11:50	clojurebot	(:d :e :a :b :c)
11:50	dnolen	,(into (vec '(:d :e)) [:a :b :c])
11:50	clojurebot	[:d :e :a :b :c]
11:50	pjstadig	sure
11:50	pjstadig	but that's cheating
11:51	pjstadig	hehe
11:51	dnolen	:)
11:51	pjstadig	i'm just saying you have to be aware that into uses conj which is data structure specific in terms of where it stuffs new items
11:51	pjstadig	but concat is also ordered the way you'd "expect"
11:52	pjstadig	plus
11:52	pjstadig	,(concat #{:a :b} #{:a :b})
11:52	clojurebot	(:a :b :a :b)
11:52	pjstadig	,(into #{:a :b} #{:a :b})
11:52	clojurebot	#{:a :b}
11:52	pjstadig	assuming you'd want to do such a thing
11:55	Scriptor	anyone behind clojuredocs.org on here?
11:55	Scriptor	the sorting algorithm used in search is a bit off
11:59	gfrlog	Scriptor: I've seen it do weirder things
12:01	gfrlog	I forget what I was searching for, but when searching for the function "foo" by name, nothing would come up. When I searched for another function called "foo-bar", "foo" was the first result
12:01	mattmitchell	anyone know what the command is in emacs to show a list of search matches in a new buffer?
12:02	derp_	hey, what is the != symbol in clojure?
12:02	dnolen	derp_: not=
12:02	mattmitchell	it'll show each match with a little context
12:02	derp_	dnolen: thanks
12:02	dnolen	mattmitchell: are you talking about grep-find ?
12:04	mattmitchell	dnolen: no you can do C-s, then you can pull out the matches into a new buffer, and in that buffer you can see a little context around each match. If you select one of the items, you go to that place in your main buffer. Very handy, just can't remember what it's called!
12:07	mattmitchell	dnolen: can grep-find do that?
12:07	dnolen	mattmitchell: multi-occur ?
12:07	mattmitchell	dnolen: i'll try that
12:07	dnolen	M-x multi-occur
12:07	mattmitchell	oh that sounds right
12:07	dnolen	which is really cool, I never knew about that.
12:07	dnolen	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SearchBuffers
12:07	mattmitchell	dnolen: yes! thank you. very helpful.
12:09	edwardg	hello, clojure noob here - trying to run clj-http tests, but `lein run -m clj-http.run-server` gives me a classpath error. is it implicit that i need to adjust the classpath, or am i missing something basic?
12:09	derp_	I wrote this function to test for primality ( http://pastebin.com/fqL37JPN ) but for some reason it's not working, and I really can't guess why
12:10	edwardg	which tests are failing?
12:10	derp_	the first if statement should return when checking against 1 or 2, but for some reason it's returning false, which doesn't make any sense to me
12:12	hiredman	derp_: you see to expect implicit return statements in non-tail positions?
12:12	hiredman	seem
12:14	hiredman	everything is an expression http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19132/expression-versus-statement
12:15	derp_	so how do I make it explicit?
12:17	hiredman	derp_: there are no statements
12:18	derp_	okay, but then how do I return the evaluated expression?
12:27	cemerick	derp_: use cond instead of a pile of `if`s
12:29	cemerick	There's also https://github.com/jpalmucci/clj-return-from, which I can see being handy for more complex situations
12:33	derp_	okay, I tried using cond instead, here's my code now: http://pastebin.com/MHbx04dM
12:33	derp_	but for some reason I still can't get it to work
12:35	hiredman	derp_: everything is an expression
12:37	manutter	,(doc recur)
12:37	clojurebot	Huh?
12:37	manutter	,(doc loop)
12:37	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); Evaluates the exprs in a lexical context in which the symbols in the binding-forms are bound to their respective init-exprs or parts therein. Acts as a recur target."
12:37	dnolen	derp_: move your recur inside the cond expr as a :else clause
12:39	derp_	dnolen: thanks!
12:40	derp_	dnolen: why is it :else instead of else?
12:41	fliebel	,(boolean :else)
12:41	clojurebot	true
12:41	gfrlog	is that why it works?
12:41	manutter	derp_: The :else isn't actually part of the cond syntax
12:41	fliebel	&(cond false 1 :blah 2)
12:41	sexpbot	⟹ 2
12:41	gfrlog	it hadn't occurred to me that it wasn't part of it
12:42	manutter	it's just a value that is truthy enough to serve the purpose of a "non of the above" clause
12:42	gfrlog	&(cond false 1 :never 4)
12:42	sexpbot	⟹ 4
12:42	dnolen	derp_: because it makes the cond macro simpler.
12:43	manutter	,(code false 1 (= 1 0) 2 :none-of-the-above 3)
12:43	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: code in this context
12:43	manutter	doh, typo
12:43	manutter	(cond false 1, (= 1 0) 2, :none-of-the-above 3)
12:43	gfrlog	ah hah ha...
12:43	manutter	and he forgets the leading comma, doh again.
12:43	derp_	okay, so it's just a random keyword that's evaluated after all other statements?
12:44	gfrlog	,(cond :else 15 (= 1 1) "twelve")
12:44	clojurebot	15
12:44	gfrlog	only if you put it after all the other statements ;-)
12:44	manutter	Yeah, any keyword will evaluate to true, and thus satisfy cond, which looks for the first clause that returns a true value
12:44	derp_	&(cond :blah 1 true 2 false 3)
12:44	sexpbot	⟹ 1
12:44	fliebel	gfrlog: That's a nasty trick to unsuspecting readers :)
12:45	gfrlog	,(conf :if 1 :then 2 :else 3 :end 4)
12:45	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: conf in this context
12:45	gfrlog	bah
12:45	gfrlog	I'm not typing it again.
12:45	manutter	Yeah, the "magic" is that cond tries each pair until it finds one that evaluates to a true value, so if you have an always-true value, non of the other clauses will be tried.
12:47	halfprogrammer	I think even JoC talks about using any keyword in cond instead of :else thingy
13:05	choffstein	1
13:06	gfrlog	choffstein: 2
13:06	choffstein	Has anyone successfully deployed a war file (generated from lein-ring) on tomcat? I am having some issues trying to figure out how to get the static files to serve (using ring / moustache / hiccup) and where they should be located in the war file for tomcat to serve them
13:06	gfrlog	choffstein: does the standard resources setup not work?
13:06	choffstein	yeah ... advice to IRC GUI programmers -- don't change window context when a user is typing in their password :-\
13:07	gfrlog	your password is "1"?
13:07	choffstein	there is a 1 in it.
13:07	manutter	not any more ;)
13:07	choffstein	namely ... at the end
13:07	choffstein	hence the "enter" that quickly followed it.
13:07	manutter	That's amazing I have the same combination on my luggage.
13:08	gfrlog	Now I just gotta think of all the passwords that end in "1" and pick the most plausible
13:08	manutter	"we're-number-..."
13:08	gfrlog	"321"?
13:08	manutter	So, if I admit I successfully deployed a WAR file, you're going to ask me how I did it, and I don't remember :)
13:08	manutter	*:(
13:08	choffstein	lemme throw up a quick gist of my setup...
13:09	gfrlog	a quist
13:10	manutter	iirc, I ended up with a setup that would work for war files but not for lein/repl work, and one that would work with lein/repl but not war
13:10	choffstein	yeah. that is what I am finding in online resources manutter
13:10	manutter	and I could switch between the two with the right changes to my project.clj
13:10	manutter	but I'm at work now and don't have access to those files
13:11	choffstein	maybe something about changing the project environment settings?
13:12	manutter	I think I added a special plugin or something
13:12	choffstein	well ... that's an interesting idea. is it possible to get information from your leiningen project file from inside your project?
13:13	choffstein	my current issue is that my environment variables which I am trying to use to distinguish between production and development environments don't seem to be read from within tomcat...
13:13	manutter	On that question I'll defer to someone who actually knows what they're talking about
13:15	choffstein	yeah. let me get that gist up right quick
13:16	derp_	I am still having a bit of trouble getting my euler #3 program to work http://pastebin.com/MHKSNz3A
13:16	derp_	I keep getting an error about not recurring from the tail-position
13:17	derp_	I'm not really sure how to get around that, so I think I must be making some fundamental mistake
13:17	sritchie	(reverse (rest (reverse lst))) can be (butlast lst), btw
13:18	manutter	derp_: the problem is in line 29 of your gist
13:18	manutter	if I'm parsing the nesting correctly anyway
13:19	tsdh	Can I have a protocol whose methods are not exposed? Something like defn-?
13:19	dnolen	tsdh: hiding fns of protocol doesn't make sense.
13:20	derp_	so it's okay to have multiple recur statements within a function?
13:20	derp_	the error was making me think I could not do that
13:21	tsdh	dnolen: why? I use protocols for fast dispatching in my own namespace but the functionality is exposed with some more convenient interface.
13:21	dnolen	derp_: you can, but you should probably stop solving your euler problem and take a moment to understand where recur has to go. make some small simple fns to test.
13:22	dnolen	tsdh: this isn't Java. imagine Clojure's core datastructures with hidden protocol fns.
13:22	choffstein	Okay, here is my project file / web.xml file / and server as well as the tomcat error I am getting (which is highly undescriptive): https://gist.github.com/1045242
13:22	sdeobald	choffstein, can you use Jetty instead? We tried Tomcat for ages before finally switching. It's much... less awful.
13:23	tsdh	dnolen: Wouldn't make sense there, but here it does.
13:23	choffstein	sdeobald: Amazon's Elastic Beanstalk is on tomcat :-\
13:23	choffstein	Which is what I am trying to deploy to...
13:23	sritchie	tsdh: can you just put the protocol in some other namespace, and :use it into the namespace with your convenient interfaces?
13:23	dnolen	tsdh: protocols produce fns, you could probably alter the vars if you really want to. or use definterface and don't involve fns at all.
13:23	derp_	dnolen: I don't understand, what more do I need to know about recur except that it is an stack optimizing method for recursive calls?
13:23	derp_	or is my understanding too fundamental?
13:23	rhdoenges	with clojure.string/replace, how do I access a matched group from the RE in my replacement?
13:23	dnolen	derp_: recur needs to be in the tail poisition, you need to figure out what that means.
13:24	sdeobald	choffstein, dang. Too bad. I remember having the same static resource issue on Tomcat. Let me see if I can find an old setup.
13:24	gfrlog	,(doc clojure.string/replace)
13:24	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:24	tsdh	sritchie: That's an idea...
13:24	gfrlog	rhdoenges: I believe you can pass a function that takes the match vector
13:24	rhdoenges	gfrlog: ohkay. so I would pass something like (fn [[group-one group-two]] ...)
13:25	gfrlog	rhdoenges: yeah. Test it out, it's probably the case that the 0th item in the vector is not one of the groups
13:25	choffstein	sdeobald: do you know a good jetty host?
13:25	tsdh	dnolen: What's definterface?
13:25	dnolen	tsdh: for defining a Java interface.
13:26	tsdh	dnolen: But I guess then I cannot use extend-protocol, right?
13:26	sdeobald	choffstein: Nope, sorry. We're just running it ourselves.
13:27	choffstein	okay, thanks anyway :)
13:27	sdeobald	And I guess the old tomcat setup is dead. So I'm just not any help at all. :)
13:28	choffstein	my biggest issue is getting static files to serve. ring's wrap-file seems to want the directory to exist, but to create a war, the directory needs to be in "resources." I just end up having a double copy of assets to make it work :-\
13:28	rhdoenges	gfrlog: that's what was tripping me up, the first item is the whole matched part. thanks!
13:28	gfrlog	choffstein: I thought there was a handler that in the resources directory
13:28	gfrlog	rhdoenges: yessir
13:29	choffstein	gfrlog: eh? don't quite follow that
13:29	gfrlog	choffstein: okay lemme see what I have...
13:29	sritchie	derp_: your parens are off, on your cond statement
13:30	sritchie	derp_: you close off that cond block on line 27
13:30	gfrlog	choffstein: I think it's a compojure thing. Are you using compojure?
13:30	dnolen	tsdh: yeah you can't. I guess I don't personally see much benefit in the convention ^:private when a) it can be circumvented, b) naked use is discouraged.
13:30	choffstein	nope. ring / moustache
13:30	gfrlog	choffstein: okay nevermind. I have (route/resourses "/") in my compojure routes and it finds everything in /resources/public
13:31	choffstein	well ... might be time to switch to compojure. I think moustache and compojure play nicely...
13:31	tsdh	dnolen: The obvious benefit is that you get less clutter when autocompleting. :-)
13:31	gfrlog	choffstein: I don't even know what the heck moustache is, so I can't comment on that
13:32	gfrlog	I thought it was this javascript templating thing but I think that's something else
13:32	sritchie	derp_: I fixed your formatting for you, and that cond error: https://gist.github.com/1045258
13:32	sritchie	the code runs, now, though the answer's not correct
13:32	derp_	sritchie: thank you very much!
13:32	dnolen	tsdh: heh, what are you using? I guess it doesn't process the ns declaration?
13:33	sritchie	I didn't change any functionality, but I tweaked your implementation of prime? to show you a different way of writing statements like that
13:33	tsdh	dnolen: I use slime/swank
13:33	sritchie	derp_: or goes through each of its forms and, if it hits one that's true, returns it, otherwise it moves on. If it gets to to end, it returns the value of the final form
13:34	sritchie	derp_: also, here's a nice style guide that should help you with formatting a bit: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt. the key thing here is, don't treat the parens like curly braces and close them off on new lines
13:34	sritchie	let the reader use the indentation as a guide... you don't really count parens, once you've read enough of this code
13:35	derp_	sritchie: thank you, I really appreciate your comments
13:35	hiredman	get paredit
13:36	derp_	hiredman: already got, although I barely know how to use it
13:36	derp_	*got it
13:36	sritchie	derp_: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet
13:42	gfrlog	easiest way to make a black hole to bind out to?
13:43	drewr	(FileWriter. "/dev/null")?
13:43	gfrlog	drewr: okeedoke, thx
13:44	sdeobald	sritchie, that's a great sheet. derp_: you'll wind up using all of those all the time. paredit makes editing sexps a spiritual experience.
13:45	sritchie	derp_: try M-(, and go from there
13:45	sritchie	do that at the beginning of some symbol, and see what happens
13:45	rhdoenges	sritchie: that is what I have been looking for. I got one of those for vim and pinned it on my wall next to my monitor
13:45	rhdoenges	makes it a whole lot easier
13:45	sritchie	yup
13:46	sritchie	http://www.pchristensen.com/slimecommands.pdf
13:46	sritchie	good stuff there, too, for SLIME
13:50	rhdoenges	sritchie: it must be christmas or something
13:55	mattmitchell	anyone know of a way to remove double quotes from a word using paredit? for example, I want "test" to become test
13:56	mattmitchell	sorry, maybe i should go to #emacs :)
13:57	hugod	M-s
13:58	mattmitchell	hugod: awesome thank you
14:03	gfrlog	aw crap never use macros in (deftest) :(
14:03	matthias_	im usign cantor. when i type (vec2 3 3) in the slime-repl, i get [x=3.0, y=3.0]. how does slime get that? when i try to turn a vec2 into a string in my program, i just get the type and the address
14:04	dnolen	matthias_: cantor probably doesn't define toString for vec2
14:05	matthias_	but then how does slime get that string?
14:14	aaelony	hi, I'm making a silly mistake somewhere. I have a map and I see the key exists, but can't access the value of the key... test=> (class (j 0))
14:14	aaelony	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
14:14	aaelony	test=> (keys (j 0))
14:14	aaelony	("a" "b" "c" d" "e" )
14:14	aaelony	test=> (:d (j 0))
14:14	aaelony	nil
14:16	gfrlog	aaelony: your keys are strings but you're trying to access keywords
14:16	gfrlog	({"a" 8 :a 3} :a)
14:16	gfrlog	,(:a {"a" 8 :a 3})
14:16	clojurebot	3
14:17	gfrlog	if you need to use strings for keys, you can access them like ((j 0) "d") or (get (j 0) "d")
14:17	aaelony	gfrlog: wow, thanks.
14:17	gfrlog	(strings and keywords are two different but similar things, and both can be used as keys in a map)
14:17	gfrlog	(in fact just about anything can be a key in a map)
14:18	aaelony	thx
14:18	gfrlog	yep
14:19	aaelony	that helps quite a lot :)
14:20	gfrlog	using keywords as keys is more common, but whether you should or not depends on what you're doing
14:20	aaelony	I'm just using what clj-json decided was best. I just couldn't access what I knew it read in.
14:21	gfrlog	ah, I see. I think clj-json has a config option that will convert the strings to keywords for you
14:22	gfrlog	(parse-string s true)
14:22	gfrlog	I'm mildly surprised it doesn't default to that
14:22	amalloy	gfrlog: string literals for unusual objects are easier to construct than keyword literals
14:23	amalloy	i mean, i think it should default to keywords too. but it's possible to see why they might not
14:23	gfrlog	amalloy: in the context of converting a JSON object to a map?
14:23	gfrlog	I mean...I guess
14:24	gfrlog	you're probably thinking the same thing I was and saying it differently
14:24	jcromartie	imagine if your JSON had spaces in the keys
14:24	jcromartie	keywords = fail
14:24	jcromartie	although
14:25	jcromartie	,(keyword "this works")
14:25	clojurebot	:this works
14:25	jcromartie	:)
14:25	gfrlog	jcromartie: as does asking the parser to return strings
14:25	jcromartie	yes
14:25	gfrlog	I didn't say they should be incapable of returning strings :)
14:26	aaelony	well, I'm using the clj-json/parse-string s true option, but I have some nesting where I guess I didn't get keywords
14:26	gfrlog	augh
14:26	gfrlog	I've never used that library
14:26	jcromartie	this should just be a generic function
14:27	aaelony	or maybe I messed something else up...
14:28	gfrlog	I just successfully wrote some meta-testing helpers for clojure.test
14:28	jcromartie	(defn keywordify [m] (if (map? m) (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(keyword k) v]) m)) m))
14:29	gfrlog	e.g., (should-fail (is (nil? 42)))
14:29	gfrlog	jcromartie: that misses the nested maps though, doesn't it?
14:30	gfrlog	maybe [(keyword k) (keywordify v)]
14:34	aaelony	in my case it seems I've got a mix of a vector then a nested map
14:34	aaelony	so, map, vector, map
14:36	gfrlog	fun!
14:37	jcromartie	gfrlog: no it doesn't
14:37	jcromartie	but it does miss maps in collections
14:38	jcromartie	like a vector of maps
14:38	gfrlog	jcromartie: how would it do {"foo" {"bar" 12}} then?
14:46	gfrlog	,(let [keywordify (fn [m] (if (map? m) (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(keyword k) v] m)) m)))] (keywordify {"foo" {"bar" 12}}))
14:46	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map
14:47	jcromartie	gfrlog: it works in that case
14:48	gfrlog	,(let [keywordify (fn [m] (if (map? m) (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(keyword k) v]) m)) m))] (keywordify {"foo" {"bar" 12}}))
14:48	clojurebot	{:foo {"bar" 12}}
14:49	gfrlog	maybe I'm misunderstanding what you were trying to do
14:55	mattmitchell	what's the easiest way to pull out values from a list, where the values returned must be present in another?
14:56	stuartsierra	(filter (set the-other-list) the-first-list)
14:56	scgilardi	certified easiest™
14:57	gfrlog	,(filter #{false nil true 17} [1 2 3 true false nil "whut"])
14:57	clojurebot	(true)
14:57	gfrlog	sorry I couldn't stop myself :(
14:57	mattmitchell	nice thanks to you both!
14:58	amalloy	gfrlog: that always makes me cry
14:58	gfrlog	amalloy: that the code does that or that I wrote the code?
14:58	amalloy	both i guess
14:58	gfrlog	glad I could help
14:59	gfrlog	Clojure: because the easiest way to do something shouldn't have to work 100% of the time.
14:59	derp_	is there an easy way to comment out highlighted text in emacs?
14:59	jcromartie	M-x comment-region
15:00	amalloy	derp_: M-;
15:00	jcromartie	or that
15:00	derp_	thanks!
15:00	scgilardi	right, you need to be careful if nil and false are possible. or change to using keep and only special-case nil.
15:01	amalloy	or: commit it to git so you won't be afraid to just delete it instead of commenting it out
15:01	manutter	what if your afraid of git tho?
15:01	manutter	*you're
15:01	gfrlog	read about git
15:02	amalloy	manutter: there's always room in our nations jails for more dissidents
15:02	gfrlog	if you're afraid of reading, then watch a youtube video about reading
15:02	amalloy	*nation's
15:02	manutter	lol
15:02	rhdoenges	manutter: then use hg. or bzr. or svn. or cvs. anything is better than nothing
15:02	gfrlog	if you're afraid of youtube, then I'll tell amalloy that you're afraid of git and that'll be the end of you
15:03	jcromartie	amalloy: what nation is that?
15:03	jcromartie	not mine
15:03	amalloy	jcromartie: the us, alas
15:03	manutter	I think that would be consternation
15:03	jcromartie	hah hah... no more room
15:03	jcromartie	anyway
15:03	jcromartie	yes, source control is better that commented out code...
15:03	jcromartie	and also, (comment ...) is better than ;;
15:03	jcromartie	if you really want to be slick
15:03	gfrlog	git commit -a -m 'wut this commit is'
15:04	arohner	so I have a large set of strings (11 million). Is there a faster or more memory efficient way to determine if a string is in the set than a normal contains?
15:04	amalloy	jcromartie: ##((fn [x] (inc x) (comment "used to return 2x")) 3)
15:04	sexpbot	⟹ nil
15:04	arohner	I can't just store the hash codes, because of collisions, right?
15:04	jcromartie	ah, (comment) returns nil?
15:05	amalloy	yes. that is why it is evil and shouldn't be encouraged
15:05	jcromartie	derp!
15:05	jcromartie	I always use it in the top level
15:05	jcromartie	that's why
15:05	amalloy	nod
15:05	gfrlog	arohner: contains should be looking up by hash code. I'd think the worst part is that the hash code of your test string has to be computed
15:05	amalloy	it's usually harmless of course
15:05	gfrlog	arohner: and I guess it'll compare them character-by-character as well
15:06	arohner	sounds like I need to read some source
15:06	scgilardi	arohner: a bloom filter could help
15:06	jcromartie	then there is #_
15:06	amalloy	gfrlog: i imagine strings cache their hashes
15:06	jcromartie	scgilardi: the only problem there is that you need more hash functions
15:06	amalloy	since they're immutable
15:06	arohner	amalloy: yeah, I would assume that too
15:06	gfrlog	amalloy: yes
15:06	gfrlog	but there's no reason to assume his string has been cached before
15:06	gfrlog	hashed
15:06	gfrlog	hash-cached
15:07	gfrlog	hached
15:07	amalloy	gfrlog: as soon as it gets put into a hashmap, it has
15:07	gfrlog	amalloy: if he already put it into his set then he doesn't need to check if it's there
15:07	gfrlog	probably
15:07	amalloy	scgilardi: know of a good article on bloom filters? sounds interesting but i don't know anything about them
15:07	scgilardi	jcromartie: right, I was interpreting it as a problem to be solved with 11 million strings rather than specifically about set.
15:07	scgilardi	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom_filter
15:07	jcromartie	how about grep
15:07	mattmitchell	stuartsierra: how the heck does "(filter (set the-other-list) the-first-list)" work?
15:08	jcromartie	that would search 11M strings pretty fast
15:08	jcromartie	;)
15:08	mattmitchell	,(doc set)
15:08	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a set of the distinct elements of coll."
15:08	gfrlog	mattmitchell: it creates a set, which is a function that will return elements it contains
15:08	gfrlog	mattmitchell: for almost all elements, that corresponds to returning truthy, which is what filter looks for
15:08	mattmitchell	good grief that's slick
15:09	gfrlog	sounds like a bloom filter is like a hash-map that doesn't bother storing values
15:10	gfrlog	or hash-set rather
15:10	arohner	and requires multiple hash fns
15:10	gfrlog	haven't seen that part
15:10	amalloy	scgilardi: that's pretty neat
15:11	arohner	gfrlog: it's in the second sentence of the wiki article
15:11	arohner	requires k distinct hash fns
15:11	gfrlog	arohner: yep found it. Okay I take it back this is totally different and also clever.
15:12	gfrlog	I would join a band by that name.
15:14	gfrlog	"Unlike sets based on hash tables, any Bloom filter can represent the entire universe of elements."
15:15	amalloy	gfrlog: (constantly true)
15:15	gfrlog	okay fine
15:17	gfrlog	I guess you can represent cofinite sets as well...
15:17	mattmitchell	how can i extract the values from a hash-map, using a list of keys? For example, {:one 1 :two 2 :three} -- I want the values for :two and :three
15:17	jcromartie	I wonder... how big would your bloom filter have to be for an 11M item set
15:17	gfrlog	mattmitchell: (map m my-keys)
15:17	mattmitchell	i know this is gonna be simple
15:17	mattmitchell	there you go :)
15:17	mattmitchell	thanks
15:17	gfrlog	yessir
15:18	gfrlog	I would say for whathisface's application, if he can't tolerate false positives then the bloom filter won't do any good
15:18	gfrlog	since he'd have to compute a bunch of hashes instead of just one
15:19	gfrlog	save some space though I guess
15:20	arohner	gfrlog: saving space would be nice, right now the strings occupy 1.5GB. I'm more interested in speed than space though
15:21	gfrlog	arohner: I guess the bloom filter would help you filter out the negatives. Are your strings long?
15:21	arohner	gfrlog: not really. They're wikipedia article titles
15:21	amalloy	arohner: if you have them in a set already, looking them up will be fairly fast, i think
15:21	arohner	amalloy: but I want moar speed :-)
15:21	amalloy	the set will keep growing itself to limit collisions
15:22	amalloy	or at any rate, j.u.HashMap does. i haven't read the impl for clojure's, but i imagine it has similar guarantees about the load factor
15:22	gfrlog	get a real big CPU that has 2 GB of on-chip cache
15:25	edw	Anyone out there using aleph? I'm getting a hang when I wait on respons from my redis server.
15:25	amalloy	edw: (a) what version of aleph redis, (2) what commands are you sending?
15:28	jcromartie	arohner: maybe another option would be a tree
15:29	amalloy	jcromartie: that will be way slower than a hashset
15:29	gfrlog	a tree based on prefixes maybe?
15:29	jcromartie	right
15:29	derp_	how does one append to a vector?
15:29	gfrlog	derp_: conj
15:29	arohner	clojure sets are already tries on the string's hashcode, right?
15:29	amalloy	&(conj [1 2] 3)
15:29	sexpbot	⟹ [1 2 3]
15:29	gfrlog	amalloy: dang that was fast
15:30	gfrlog	arohner: probably so
15:30	amalloy	gfrlog: i have six fingers on my right hand
15:30	derp_	why does conj prepend when used with lists?
15:30	sritchie	amalloy: I know a guy who's been looking for you
15:30	derp_	&(conj [1 2] 3)
15:30	sexpbot	⟹ [1 2 3]
15:31	amalloy	derp_: it adds in whatever manner is most efficient for the underlying type
15:31	gfrlog	amalloy: dang that was fast
15:31	gfrlog	I'm gonna stop reading questions
15:31	gfrlog	or at least wait 5 secondns
15:31	amalloy	chuckle
15:32	derp_	okay, well I am using this function called 'butlast', but it returns the modified vector's contents as a list
15:32	derp_	how do I change that behavior?
15:32	amalloy	derp_: no, it returns it as a lazy-seq
15:33	amalloy	(which happens to print the same as a list)
15:33	amalloy	derp_: use subvec instead if you want a vector
15:33	amalloy	&(doc subvec)
15:33	sexpbot	⟹ "([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
15:33	gfrlog	woah
15:33	gfrlog	I wonder how often I've missed that :/
15:34	gfrlog	&(doc supervec)
15:34	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: supervec in this context
15:36	amalloy	gfrlog: i was sad to find out that subvec throws an exception on negative offsets
15:36	gfrlog	haha
15:36	derp_	amalloy: thank you very much
15:36	amalloy	&(-> [1 2 3] (subvec 1 3) (subvec -1 3)) ; wish this returned [1 2 3]
15:36	sexpbot	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException
15:36	edw	amalloy: redis 2.2.10 and I'm sending PING, AUTH, stuff like that. The basics...
15:37	gfrlog	oh that'd be terrible
15:37	derp_	one last q, how would you have known that butlast returns a lazy-seq if you were unfamiliar with clojure?
15:37	gfrlog	,(class (butlast (range 20)))
15:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
15:37	amalloy	edw: i was terribly unclear. what version of aleph?
15:38	gfrlog	derp_: well maybe that didn't help, but most functions return lazy seqs if there's no particular reason to do anything else
15:38	edw	0.2.0-alpha2
15:38	amalloy	edw: he fixed a similar issue for me in 0.2.0-alpha3: http://groups.google.com/group/aleph-lib/browse_thread/thread/60e02641dbaa05fe
15:38	derp_	so it's the default return type for most list/vector manipulation stuff?
15:38	amalloy	derp_: yes
15:39	edw	Ah, didn't know there was an alpha 3...
15:39	amalloy	edw: i think it's still a snapshot
15:39	amalloy	this was like a week ago
15:39	gfrlog	derp_: clojure's designed to encourage you to deal with lazy seqs whenever you can
15:39	edw	amalloy: Is it up on clojars? 0.2.0-alpha4-SNAPSHOT?
15:39	edw	Err, 3.
15:39	amalloy	yes
15:40	gfrlog	like ##(zipmap (range 5) (repeat 0))
15:40	sexpbot	⟹ {4 0, 3 0, 2 0, 1 0, 0 0}
15:40	edw	There we go! Thanks, amalloy. Let's see if this works...
15:41	jcromartie	trie functions yay
15:41	jcromartie	probably too slow for 11M strings
15:41	jcromartie	https://gist.github.com/1045515
15:41	jcromartie	but too elegant to pass up :)
15:42	gfrlog	jcromartie: another way to make it go faster is to only use 11 strings instead of 11M
15:42	jcromartie	that's a great idea
15:42	jcromartie	why doesn't everybody just do that?
15:42	gfrlog	,(let [str-set (set (map str (range 11)))] (time (contains? str-set "7")))
15:42	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.019 msecs"
15:42	clojurebot	true
15:42	gfrlog	can't beat that
15:43	gfrlog	jcromartie: now that I bring that up, what's the access time for your big set?
15:43	edw	amalloy: Still not working (on localhost with 2.2.10 and alpha3-SNAPSHOT). Durn.
15:44	jcromartie	my what? it was arohner's problem
15:44	gfrlog	jcromartie: ah whoops sorry :)
15:45	jcromartie	dammit rlwrap/REPL... why does C-y (yank) send it to the background?
15:45	arohner	gfrlog: I have a document, I want to find all wikipedia titles in the doc. It takes ~700ms right now
15:45	amalloy	jcromartie: O(log32(n)) is not much slower than O(1) - the size of the set isn't going to matter much
15:45	gfrlog	amalloy: the caching level will matter
15:46	gfrlog	L1 cache vs. swap matters :)
15:46	jcromartie	so then it's solved? (use a set)
15:46	edw	amalloy: There's some promising stuff in the new branch on github. Might try that.
15:46	amalloy	gfrlog: granted. but he shouldn't be going into swap, and fitting it into cpu cache is impossible regardless
15:46	gfrlog	unless he takes my suggestion of using 11 strings
15:46	gfrlog	or wait
15:47	gfrlog	O(1) was regarding the trie functions?
15:47	amalloy	yes
15:47	gfrlog	sorry, sometimes I get lost in my own stupid side comments
15:48	gfrlog	I'll go make an 11M string set and see how it performs
15:48	jcromartie	I can't even make an 11M string set
15:49	jcromartie	I gave up after letting it churn
15:49	jcromartie	for 2 minutes
15:49	gfrlog	jcromartie: how much memory?
15:49	jcromartie	1024
15:49	jcromartie	(def bigset (set (map str (range 11000000))))
15:49	choffstein	Freaking tomcat. Doesn't play nice with compojure ... seems that when you do your routes in compojure, they are absolute and when you upload your application to tomcat, you get a context in your route (e.g. localhost:8080/myApp/) -- which means all my routes get prefixed with myApp and hence NOTHING MATCHES on compojure. Aaaarrrrrggghhhhh!!! slams face against keyboard
15:49	arohner	I have 4GB on this machine, and it takes 2.5GB to load the strings out of the DB, and 1.5GB steady state
15:50	arohner	takes about 10 minutes to load them all
15:50	dpritchett`	choffstein, your dev routes don't match your production routes?
15:50	jcromartie	choffstein: can you handle that with middleware?
15:50	jcromartie	arohner: yeah, not surprising I guess
15:50	gfrlog	jcromartie: that expression returned for me after about 15 sec
15:51	gfrlog	`top` puts the jvm at about 23.6% right now
15:51	gfrlog	I think I have 8G?
15:51	jcromartie	gfrlog: weird
15:51	choffstein	...I can?!
15:51	jcromartie	hm
15:51	jcromartie	choffstein: routes are just functions
15:51	gfrlog	user=> (time (contains? bigset "48482"))
15:51	gfrlog	"Elapsed time: 0.036596 msecs"
15:51	jcromartie	you should be able to wrap them
15:52	jcromartie	not really "middleware" but something to "massage" the request URL
15:52	amalloy	jcromartie: that's middleware :P
15:52	choffstein	dprichett`: the issue is, I have my routes like "/portal", but when I deploy to tomcat, the routes are like "/myApp/portal"
15:52	jcromartie	yeah I was going to say
15:52	jcromartie	:)
15:52	choffstein	Yeah. It's a tomcat issue though. I'm trying to see if I can just deploy the application to / ... but tomcat doesn't seem to like me doing that at the moment :D
15:53	amalloy	(defn without-prefix [prefix handler] (fn [req] (handler (update-in req [:uri] #(s/replace % prefix "")))))
15:54	amalloy	choffstein: just wrap your outer-level route in something like that, and it will strip the leading "/myApp" before giving it to the rest of your code
15:54	choffstein	amalloy: that is my last ditch idea. seems "hacky" to me.
15:54	gfrlog	amalloy: and then parse the html that comes out and add it back to all the <a>'s?
15:54	amalloy	gfrlog: ouch
15:55	gfrlog	I guess you can do relative paths that avoid that?
15:55	amalloy	gfrlog: yeah but not always
15:55	amalloy	choffstein: yes, you should probably be able to configure tomcat to do that for you, i guess
15:55	gfrlog	jcromartie: I made another set with longer strings (~25 chars) and it took a few minutes
15:56	gfrlog	choffstein: tomcat lets you deploy an app as the root app
15:56	jcromartie	I've got a lot of stuff going on with my 4G machine... VMWare, Chrome, iTunes
15:56	choffstein	gfrlog: I'm trying to figure that out :)
15:56	jcromartie	4GB
15:56	gfrlog	choffstein: I think if you upload it as ROOT.war it'll do that automatically
15:56	choffstein	re-he-he-heaaalllyyy?
15:56	gfrlog	choffstein: ma-ha-ha-haaaaaby
15:57	choffstein	IT'S ALIIIVVVEEEE
15:57	choffstein	IITTTT'S ALLLIIIIVVVEEEEE
15:57	gfrlog	using 11M big strings wasn't much slower than 11M little strings
15:58	gfrlog	not only that, 11M big strings was only 1 or 2 times slower than 11 strings.
15:58	gfrlog	unless contains? is returning some kind of lazy boolean
16:00	choffstein	gfrlog: thank you so much. ROOT.war did the trick.
16:00	gfrlog	choffstein: no probalo
16:00	gfrlog	I hate trying to figure out how to make tomcat do stuff
16:01	edw	D'oh. Nothing's working here, amalloy.
16:01	arohner	gfrlog: I assume the big strings aren't much slower, because you only have to deal with the length when you get a hash collision
16:02	ibdknox	How many of you guys would be interested in a datastore backed by redis that mimicked clojure's datastructures:
16:02	arohner	and then you only need to compare strings until you find a mismatch
16:02	ibdknox	(def x (redis-atom {}))
16:02	ibdknox	(swap! x assoc :r 3)
16:02	amalloy	edw: sorry bro
16:02	jcromartie	ibdknox: sounds like the perfect interface to a data store if you ask me
16:02	jcromartie	especially if it works in a transaction
16:02	gfrlog	arohner: I'd think if the string is present you'd still have to compare
16:02	no_mind	I am writing a macro where I wanta function to be passed. This function should be called if certain conditions are met. My queries are a) should I go with a macro or a define a function b) Is it possible to pass the namespace and function name as a single argument ?
16:02	arohner	gfrlog: yes, but only after the hashes match
16:02	edw	What version of Redis are/were you using?
16:03	no_mind	*function to be passed as argument
16:03	amalloy	2.0.1
16:03	edw	Whoa, that was a while ago.
16:03	hiredman	I would hope a database would supply something higher level than datastructure operations
16:03	amalloy	no_mind: almost certainly this should be a function
16:03	amalloy	edw: so far i haven't had to deploy at all; it's just what apt-get put on my dev machine
16:03	ibdknox	hiredman: what do you mean?
16:04	ibdknox	hiredman: even a database has to have an add command ;)
16:04	hiredman	ibdknox: a distributed hash table is not a database
16:04	amalloy	hiredman: i think he only called it a datastore
16:04	no_mind	amalloy: ok, and how about passing function name and namespace as single argument ?
16:04	ibdknox	hiredman: that was one example, take this as another:
16:04	amalloy	no_mind: i don't understand the question. just pass the function itself, don't mess around with names
16:05	ibdknox	(def rlist (redis-atom [1 2 3]))
16:05	ibdknox	(nth @rlist 2)
16:05	ibdknox	basically it's a persistence mechanism for clojure collections
16:06	hiredman	shrug
16:06	ibdknox	using the wonderful datatypes in redis
16:06	ibdknox	the point was to judge interest more than anything :)
16:06	no_mind	amalloy: lets say I have a namespace abc and a function in abc xyz. I want to know if ther eis some way to just pass fully qulaified function name like abc.xyz assigle function and then have the function executed ? or should I pass ns and function name as two arguments
16:07	ibdknox	hiredman: I assume you use a SQL variant?
16:07	gfrlog	no_mind: you can pass the function itself without worrying about its name
16:07	gfrlog
16:07	hiredman	ibdknox: use for what?
16:07	ibdknox	hiredman: persistence? lol
16:08	hiredman	depends
16:08	scgilardi	the fully qualified name would be abc/xyz
16:09	hiredman	persisting datastructures is neat for little apps, or when you are just starting, but not really useful for larger datasets
16:09	no_mind	gfrlog: the function will not be called under all conditions. Plus the arguments tot he function will be modified before function's execution
16:09	dpritchett`	oh hi ibdknox
16:09	gfrlog	no_mind: none of those things require knowing the function's name
16:09	dpritchett`	i have been enjoying noir this week, thank you
16:10	ibdknox	you're quite welcome :)
16:10	ibdknox	hiredman: so anyone using a key-value store is doing it wrong?
16:10	gfrlog	no_mind: if your function is receiving a function as its argument, it can refer to it by the argument name
16:10	dpritchett`	now i just need to figure out how to nest clojure.contrib.sql/with-query-results with your common/layout and defpage functions
16:10	amalloy	no_mind: look at the map function. it takes a function as argument, and applies it a number of times. or partial, which modifies the arguments to the underlying function. model your solution on those
16:10	dpritchett`	For some reason the correct ordering is eluding me
16:10	hiredman	ibdknox: please don't turn my dismissal of your idea into a debate about nosql
16:11	no_mind	gfrlog: yes it can. But what if the function received is in another namespace ?
16:11	gfrlog	no_mind: (fn [f a b] (if a (f b) "not calling that function")) for example
16:11	ibdknox	hiredman: hm
16:11	no_mind	amalloy: thanks
16:11	gfrlog	no_mind: functions don't belong to namespaces
16:11	derp_	is there an easy way to turn a list of characters into a string?
16:11	gfrlog	no_mind: so it doesn't matter
16:11	scgilardi	derp_: use str
16:11	derp_	I am stuck at (map str (rest "1001"))
16:11	amalloy	derp_: ##(apply str '(\a \b))
16:11	sexpbot	⟹ "ab"
16:12	no_mind	ok
16:12	ibdknox	hiredman: as you wish.
16:12	hiredman	if I want to persist a datastructure I will most likely pr-str it or serialize it and write it to disk
16:12	Raynes	no_mind: Functions are completely and utterly first class. They are just normal values in Clojure. As normal as a string or an integer.
16:12	jcromartie	relations and invariants FTW
16:12	ibdknox	I was thinking of this more as an interface to redis that looked just like any other clojure code
16:13	ibdknox	maybe that's a better way to think of it :)
16:13	hiredman	but redis is not a clojure datastructure
16:13	gfrlog	no_mind: Raynes makes a good point -- you wouldn't as what namespace your other arguments "belonged to"
16:13	gfrlog	s/as/ask
16:13	sexpbot	<gfrlog> no_mind: Raynes makes a good point -- you wouldn't ask what namespace your other arguments "belonged to"
16:13	ibdknox	there's basically a 1:1 mapping between redis datatypes and clojure's collections
16:13	no_mind	ok
16:13	jcromartie	ibdknox: unfortunately it is only 1:1 as long as the elements of those data structures are compatible
16:14	amalloy	ibdknox: that's rather an overstatement. redis's sorted-sets are a bizarre parody of sorted sets
16:14	hiredman	ibdknox: I doubt that
16:14	jcromartie	so, how would you store {:foo 'bar "bat" (java.util.Date.)}
16:14	jcromartie	pr-str?
16:14	gfrlog	no_mind: if that's not clear, then maybe try writing the code the way you think it should work and we can look at it
16:14	hiredman	jcromartie: are you asking me?
16:14	jcromartie	ibdknox:
16:14	amalloy	they're definitely a useful structure, but they don't really map onto anything in clojure
16:14	ibdknox	yes, the downside is that you can't store types
16:15	jcromartie	there is sorted-set in Clojure
16:15	jcromartie	not sure if that's the same thing
16:15	ibdknox	but that's true of any db
16:15	hiredman	hmmm?
16:15	no_mind	gfrlog: its clear andI am trying the ideassuggested
16:15	ibdknox	and that's fair, the semantics between the two are not identical
16:15	ibdknox	the point would be to make them seem that way, though, I feel the intent of my proposal is now lost and I'll drop the subject :)
16:15	amalloy	jcromartie: i know, but redis's are weird
16:16	ibdknox	amalloy: they really are
16:16	jcromartie	ibdknox: I wouldn't discourage you
16:16	hiredman	I would recommend grabbing an existing clojure redis client and making it nice to use and using it a lot to burn it in over this kind of thing
16:16	jcromartie	Redis is what it is, and that interface sounds good
16:16	jcromartie	at least to me
16:17	gfrlog	I kept wanting to say that vars belong to namespaces, but I don't think that's true. Is there anything that can be properly said to "belong to" a namespace? are they just maps from symbols to vars?
16:17	hiredman	"I like my kitchen, my kitchen has knives, this battle axe is kind of like knife, but awkward to use in my kitchen, so I'll pretend it is a knife"
16:18	hiredman	like a knife
16:18	ibdknox	lol
16:19	hiredman	next thing you know you don't have a leg to stand on
16:19	amalloy	hah
16:22	jcromartie	I am flabbergasted that every part of this trie implementation is basically a one-liner https://gist.github.com/1045515
16:22	jcromartie	FP FTW
16:23	gfrlog	jcromartie: that is remarkable. therefore it is appropriate that you remarked.
16:25	jcromartie	vs. http://code.google.com/p/trie/source/browse/trunk/trie/src/net/bcharris/trie/TrieImpl.java
16:25	jcromartie	or http://code.google.com/p/typocalypse/source/browse/Trie/TrieNode.cs
16:25	jcromartie	or ...
16:25	jcromartie	you get the idea
16:28	gfrlog	jcromartie: you wrote that code just now?
16:28	bsteuber	come on, it's unfair to compare it to java or c# code :)
16:28	gfrlog	user=> (merge (trie/trie "abc") (trie/trie "abd"))
16:28	gfrlog	{\a {\b {\d {}}}}
16:28	dpritchett	this is by far my favorite part of noir so far ibdknox https://github.com/ibdknox/noir/blob/master/src/noir/server.clj#L8
16:29	gfrlog	oh ha
16:29	gfrlog	I'm using clojure.core/merge :)
16:29	dpritchett	that is sweet behavior i had not expected
16:29	gfrlog	no wonder it don't work
16:29	ibdknox	gotta have a good development experience ;)
16:29	jcromartie	gfrlog: yeah
16:29	ibdknox	throw an exception on purpose some time
16:30	jcromartie	gfrlog: maybe I should use merge instead of merge+
16:30	ibdknox	it highlights the parts of the stack that are in your code, if you have the :ns property set when you start the server
16:30	jcromartie	or merge-trie
16:30	gfrlog	jcromartie: I'm not familiar with the data structure -- if I merge "abc" and "abcd", should it contains? both of them?
16:30	jcromartie	yes
16:30	gfrlog	k, might wanna work on that then :)
16:31	gfrlog	user=> (trie/merge+ (trie/trie "abc") (trie/trie "abcd"))
16:31	gfrlog	{\a {\b {\c {\d {}}}}}
16:32	jcromartie	huh
16:32	jcromartie	works over here
16:32	gfrlog	I'm using https://gist.github.com/1045515
16:32	jcromartie	ah ha
16:32	gfrlog	(search t "abc") => {\d {}}
16:33	jcromartie	yeah I see
16:33	jcromartie	because it's not accounting for the terminator in abc
16:34	aaelony	hi, I like the clj-json library in general, but (clj-json.core/parse-string json true) is returning strings instead of keywords for nestings of vectors and maps.
16:34	aaelony	The following (from earlier) helps a little bit: (defn keywordify [m] (if (map? m) (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(keyword k) (keywordify v)]) m)) m)) but not for vectors of maps. How would I locate all keywords and keywordify them even if they are buried in combinations of vectors and maps?
16:35	duck1123	Has anyone here ever experienced an issue where they can upload a small file to their ring app, but a slightly larger file times out?
16:35	jcromartie	gfrlog: I don't think contains? should exist, or it should be (not (nil? (search t s)))
16:35	gfrlog	aaelony: you could add a second clause after (if (map? m)) that checks if it's a collection
16:35	gfrlog	aaelony: I guess it could only be a vector right? so check if it's a vector and if so map it over keywordify
16:35	gfrlog	jcromartie: I like the terminator idea
16:35	duck1123	it gets a bit more complicated with my using aleph and 1.3
16:35	aaelony	i think it will be a vector
16:36	aaelony	thanks, gfrlog
16:36	jcromartie	aaelony: actually let me rework that keywordify
16:36	gfrlog	jcromartie: so contains? would check if the resulting map has the terminator as an element
16:37	gfrlog	jcromartie: you could even make it all safe by using a unique (new Object) instead of nil or anything else
16:37	ibdknox	duck1123: servers often have upload memory limits
16:37	aaelony	thanks jcromartie
16:37	gfrlog	isn't there a keywordize-keys function somewhere?
16:38	gfrlog	maybe not...
16:38	ibdknox	gfrlog: I think ring actually has one
16:38	amalloy	gfrlog: clojure.walk, i think?
16:38	gfrlog	clojuredocs doesn't return one
16:38	gfrlog	oh but walk does have it
16:39	gfrlog	aaelony: try clojure.walk/keywordize-keys
16:39	aaelony	checking, thanks
16:39	duck1123	wrap-keyword-params
16:39	gfrlog	(dec clojuredocs)
16:39	sexpbot	⟹ -1
16:39	ibdknox	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/keyword_params.clj
16:39	jcromartie	like a boss, gfrlog
16:39	ibdknox	lol
16:40	aaelony	it says "Recursively transforms all map keys from strings to keywords." I wonder if it allows for nestings with vectors...
16:40	gfrlog	aaelony: try it :)
16:40	duck1123	I don't believe it does
16:40	aaelony	looks great
16:40	aaelony	very nice
16:40	aaelony	at least for me mangy data structure :)
16:41	aaelony	s/me/my/
16:41	sexpbot	<aaelony> at least for my mangy data structure :)
16:41	jcromartie	aaelony: it does
16:43	jcromartie	gfrlog: you'll be pleased to know that fixing trie/contains? involved changing two lines
16:44	gfrlog	jcromartie: you'd have to fix trie/trie as well, right? to add a terminator?
16:45	jcromartie	updated https://gist.github.com/gists/1045515/edit
16:45	ibdknox	that link redirects
16:46	ibdknox	we can't edit it ;)
16:46	jcromartie	oops
16:46	jcromartie	herp derp https://gist.github.com/1045515
16:46	ibdknox	that really is impressive
16:46	ibdknox	tries are fun
16:46	gfrlog	jcromartie: ::terminator is gooder idea than (new Object)
16:47	jcromartie	and I even spelled it right (some blub implementation had "Terminater")
16:48	gfrlog	ha
16:48	jcromartie	makes me think of a cybernetic potato for some reason
16:48	jcromartie	is it idiomatic for predicates to return true or false, exactly?
16:48	jcromartie	or is true or nil good enough?
16:49	gfrlog	jcromartie: considering the sorts of things that people use for predicates, I'd say you can return any dang thing you want :)
16:49	jcromartie	hah
16:49	jcromartie	our database uses -1 for true
16:49	jcromartie	0 or NULL for false
16:49	jcromartie	fun times
16:49	gfrlog	that's fantastic
16:50	gfrlog	if I want to restrict a predicate I just pass it through (boolean) at the end
16:52	jcromartie	ah
16:52	jcromartie	good idea
16:53	jcromartie	I was reading this today http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards
16:53	jcromartie	pretty good advice in general
16:53	dpritchett	is the @ dereference operator in clojureql standard clojure or specific to this library?
16:53	dpritchett	(clojureql.core/table :posts) gives me a sql statement, if i prepend a @ it gives me the results
16:53	Raynes	gfrlog: Or true?
16:53	Raynes	:D
16:54	gfrlog	Raynes: uhhh...huh?
16:54	Raynes	gfrlog: And then pretend that doesn't cause bugs.
16:54	dpritchett	nevermind, found it myself on the clojure docs
16:54	gfrlog	oh okay. I can pretend.
16:55	gfrlog	Raynes: may as well use (not) while we're at it
16:55	gfrlog	boolean is clojure for !!
16:56	amalloy	gfrlog, jcromartie: i prefer (Object.) to ::terminator, fwiw
16:56	jcromartie	amalloy: what's your reason why?
16:56	gfrlog	amalloy: whyso? Isn't it a perfect example of qualified keywords?
16:56	hugod	stuartsierra: I thought the new contribs were all 1.2 compatible - doesn't that imply that they should declare a 1.2 dependency, rather than whatever happens to be the latest release?
16:56	gfrlog	not to mention it's using clojure stuff instead of jvm stuff
16:57	amalloy	jcromartie: it's more general. yes, in practice people won't want to store :my-ns/terminator, but it's silly to make that illegal
16:57	amalloy	whereas if you use an (Object.) you can guarantee nobody will ever put it in there
16:57	jcromartie	amalloy: there's a problem with (Object.)
16:57	gfrlog	amalloy: when would you ever want to use a qualified keyword outside your own namespace?
16:57	amalloy	gfrlog: plenty of reasons
16:57	jcromartie	and you couldn't really serialize it
16:58	amalloy	jcromartie: that's a fair point
16:58	gfrlog	I say anybody who does such a thing deserves his fate
16:58	bsteuber	everything that's not a char and easy to compare is okey, isn't it?
16:58	gfrlog	also something something about plenty of room in the prisons
16:58	bsteuber	so my favorite would be nil as terminator
16:58	amalloy	bsteuber: ergh
16:59	jcromartie	nil might be a good idea
16:59	jcromartie	assuming you can use nil as a key?
16:59	amalloy	don't use nil as a map key. it's horrible
16:59	gfrlog	but wanting to store seqs with nil is much more plausible
16:59	amalloy	jcromartie: you can, but it's such a cause of problems that even j.u.Collection says it's an optional feature for maps to support, iirc
16:59	jcromartie	hah
17:00	stuartsierra	hugod: Perhaps. For now it's convenient on the build server, and your local dependency should override it.
17:00	bsteuber	ah true, you can use tries for any sequential data
17:00	amalloy	Some map implementations have restrictions on the keys and values they may contain. For example, some implementations prohibit null keys and values, and some have restrictions on the types of their keys. Attempting to insert an ineligible key or value throws an unchecked exception
17:00	bsteuber	so ::terminator or just ::end is best
17:00	gfrlog	or ::__TERMINATOR__ just to be safe
17:01	jcromartie	::__PRIVATE__TERMINATOR__DO_NOT_USE
17:01	gfrlog	maybe with a guid at the end :)
17:01	hugod	stuartsierra: just worried about 1.2 compatability being tested/lost
17:02	stuartsierra	hugod: It's true we need more tests across versions. I have to figure out how best to do that on Hudson.
17:02	stuartsierra	But please file bugs if anything is not 1.2-compatible.
17:02	amalloy	jcromartie: and, since i'm on my mini-rant about null keys, clojure.lang.APersistentMap has a .valAt method that looks like: if (hasNullKey) return nullValue; else // do real lookup
17:03	gfrlog	jcromartie: time to box all your keys. 1 more line per function.
17:04	bsteuber	amalloy: good to know, always thought nil is as good as any other value
17:04	gfrlog	,({nil "tom" :jill "bob"} nil)
17:04	clojurebot	"tom"
17:05	gfrlog	,(let [m {nil "tom" :jill "bob"}] [(.get m nil) (.get m :jill)])
17:05	clojurebot	["tom" "bob"]
17:06	amalloy	&(clojure.string/replace-first "test" #"q" identity)
17:06	sexpbot	⟹ nil
17:07	amalloy	does this seem crazy to anyone else?
17:07	gfrlog	hmmm....maybe not
17:07	gfrlog	since you want to replace exactly one thing, you might be interested to know that it wasn't there
17:08	jcromartie	gfrlog: is there a standard way to box values?
17:08	gfrlog	jcromartie: dunno. I'd stick'em in a vector maybe?
17:08	gfrlog	then use first to access
17:08	amalloy	wait why are we boxing things?
17:08	jcromartie	it looks like a box
17:08	gfrlog	amalloy: so he can have nil keys
17:08	jcromartie	(defn box [x] [x])
17:08	gfrlog	ha
17:09	gfrlog	now make a macro to get rid of that redundancy
17:09	gfrlog	jcromartie: (def box vector)
17:09	gfrlog	(def unbox first)
17:09	amalloy	(defmacro identity-function [name args-and-body] `(defn ~name ~@(repeat 2 args-and-body)))
17:10	jcromartie	I was going to say
17:10	jcromartie	defredundant
17:10	jcromartie	totally worth it
17:10	gfrlog	(defmacro defaboxingfn ...)
17:12	gfrlog	amalloy: so you don't object to having [nil] as a key?
17:12	amalloy	gfrlog: in most circumstances i suspect it's silly, but there's nothing wrong with it
17:12	gfrlog	jcromartie: now that I think about it, list might be better than vector for performance
17:13	gfrlog	I don't know how much ceremony small vectors create. maybe it's nothing
17:14	jcromartie	BTW, there's no unboxing required
17:14	jcromartie	just (map box s)
17:14	jcromartie	for the lookups
17:15	gfrlog	jcromartie: oh right. I guess you never have to return actual values
17:15	edw	amalloy: ARGH! 9920 != 9220. Was tracing through the code looking to see if the port num was actually used by Aleph but after 30 min I noticed I'd continuously fat-fingered the port number.
17:15	gfrlog	edw: no problem, just (binding [9920 9220] ...)
17:16	edw	Doesn't that only work in Fortan?
17:16	gfrlog	:)
17:16	jcromartie	gfrlog: anyway the gist is updated... this was a distraction, even if it was a fun one!
17:17	gfrlog	jcromartie: w00p
17:17	gfrlog	I love how clojars keeps the pushing instructions front and center
17:17	jcromartie	real work is never so interesting
17:17	gfrlog	jcromartie: nope :(
17:18	jcromartie	now I'm off to manually download a file from an un-scriptable Classic ASP app, manually run it through an XSLT parser because the painfully outdated version of MSXML that we rely on is seriously broken, and then manually email it to a client
17:18	ibdknox	jcromartie: the pain.
17:19	ibdknox	it should be illegal really.
17:19	rbuchmann	(inc gfrlog)
17:19	sexpbot	⟹ 3
17:19	rbuchmann	:)
17:19	gfrlog	three!
17:20	gfrlog	that's my mostest ever
17:20	rbuchmann	quick, someone dec him :-p
17:20	edw	jcromartie: You just described about half of my job. If you get two spreadhseets too close together on any of my coworkers' monitors, they'll automatically start copying and pasting data to and fro.
17:20	amalloy	rbuchmann: the power...is yours!
17:20	jcromartie	hah hah
17:21	rbuchmann	^^
17:21	jcromartie	at least the conversion I have to do is scripted
17:21	dpritchett	jcromartie what are you scripting it with
17:22	jcromartie	just bash
17:23	jcromartie	later y'alls
17:23	gfrlog	bye
17:23	jcromartie	(but I do love me some Rake)
17:23	matthias_	what;s an abstract method error?
17:24	hiredman	matthias_: often means you are calling an abstract method
17:25	clizzin	hey all, i haven't used clojure with mysql for a few months. last time i checked, clojureql was great for querying but not inserts/updates/connections, clojure.contrib.sql got the job done on those other fronts but wasn't too elegant, and there were some other little libs that aimed to cover both areas but weren't too mature. what's the state of the art now for clojure and mysql?
17:26	gfrlog	clizzin: those first two points are all I know of.
17:31	VT_entity	hey all, I was wondering if you could help me with a tricky error
17:32	gfrlog	VT_entity: continue
17:32	Raynes	~anyone
17:32	clojurebot	Please do not ask if anyone uses, knows, is good with, can help you with <some program or library>. Instead, ask your real question and someone will answer if they can help.
17:32	VT_entity	(if (<= 0 (count examplelist))
17:32	VT_entity	;figure out a way to use let instead of an inline def here
17:32	VT_entity	((conj newlist (+ 1 (peek examplelist))) (def examplelist (pop examplelist))))
17:32	gfrlog	Raynes: I thought of that but he didn't use the word "anyone" :)
17:32	VT_entity	thanks clojurebot, that's not condescending at all.
17:32	Raynes	Still applies. :p
17:32	VT_entity	lol
17:32	gfrlog	VT_entity: he said please at least
17:33	gfrlog	VT_entity: that (<= 0 (count ...)) should always be true right?
17:33	VT_entity	it's giving me "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"
17:33	amalloy	yes, that's the (( construct
17:34	VT_entity	you mean I have too many parens?
17:34	gfrlog	VT_entity: yes
17:34	amalloy	no
17:34	gfrlog	maybe
17:34	Raynes	inpossible
17:34	gfrlog	always
17:34	VT_entity	hahahaha
17:34	Raynes	impossible, even.
17:34	amalloy	if you wanted to do it that way, you need (do (thing1) (thing2)), which is the same number of parens
17:35	amalloy	but the approach is evil and sinful anyway, as you noted since you came to ask for help
17:35	VT_entity	I thought the do was implied? if evaluates whichever predicate based on whether it's true or false
17:35	amalloy	no
17:36	VT_entity	so I need (if (foo?) (do (bar))
17:36	dpritchett	Quick data manipulation question: How would I turn '({:id 1 :content "hey"} {:id 2 :content "there"}) to [:h1 1][:p "hey"][:h1 2][:p "there] ?
17:36	gfrlog	VT_entity: no (if (foo?) (bar))
17:36	dpritchett	i'm messing with noir and hiccup, trying to turn my simple map into a series of vectors
17:37	VT_entity	that's what I figured, amalloy wants me to use do, but I wasn't sure if I needed it.
17:38	rbuchmann	if bar is several statements, you need do
17:38	gfrlog	dpritchett: ##(mapcat (fn [{:keys [id content]}] [[:h1 id] [:p content]]) '({:id 1 :content "hey"} {:id 2 :content "there"}))
17:38	sexpbot	⟹ ([:h1 1] [:p "hey"] [:h1 2] [:p "there"])
17:38	amalloy	&(mapcat (fn [{:keys [id content]}] [[:h1 id][:p content]]) '({:id 1 :content "hey"} {:id 2 :content "there"}))
17:38	sexpbot	⟹ ([:h1 1] [:p "hey"] [:h1 2] [:p "there"])
17:38	dpritchett	thanks
17:38	gfrlog	amalloy: are those completely identical?
17:38	amalloy	nod
17:38	gfrlog	what does this mean???
17:39	amalloy	that i forgot to use juxt
17:39	gfrlog	:D
17:39	lancepantz	hahah
17:39	gfrlog	man we even put the keys in the same order
17:40	amalloy	gfrlog: it's the natural order
17:41	gfrlog	whyso?
17:41	amalloy	because id is first in his example map, and also used first in the desired result
17:41	gfrlog	I guess so
17:41	dpritchett	that function worked first try when i dropped it into my code, thanks again
17:41	gfrlog	and we both used parentheses
17:41	dpritchett	i feel a little dirty now
17:41	amalloy	gfrlog: ?
17:42	gfrlog	amalloy: nothing
17:42	gfrlog	amalloy: it made no more sense than it appeared to
17:42	VT_entity	oh, you're right, the do fixed the problem. weird. I'm not sure why... also, it only peeks and pops once, which is weird. Any ideas?
17:42	VT_entity	(def examplelist '(1 2 3 4 5))
17:42	VT_entity	(def newlist ())
17:42	dpritchett	i got my mobi/epub copies of Joy of Clojure via email yesterday. i'll dig up :keys again while i'm reading
17:42	VT_entity
17:42	VT_entity	(if (<= 0 (count examplelist))
17:42	VT_entity	;figure out a way to use let instead of an inline def here
17:42	VT_entity	(do (conj newlist (+ 1 (peek examplelist))) (def examplelist (pop examplelist))))
17:42	amalloy	VT_entity: https://gist.github.com
17:43	VT_entity	oh, interesting
17:43	gfrlog	amalloy: no way did you type out that entire url with the https before he finished pasting
17:43	amalloy	gfrlog: wtf, of course i did
17:43	gfrlog	gosh dammit
17:43	gfrlog	you've got a bunch of clever emacs doohickeys
17:43	amalloy	gfrlog: using pidgin
17:43	gfrlog	emacs has pidgin now? :P
17:43	amalloy	(i know, right? not hardcore enough at all)
17:45	VT_entity	ok, I just posted it: https://gist.github.com/1045758
17:45	gfrlog	much nicer on the eyes
17:45	gfrlog	next time give it a name that ends in ".clj" and it'll color everything pretty
17:45	VT_entity	oooh
17:46	VT_entity	there we go
17:46	VT_entity	.clj
17:46	Raynes	I don't understand how amalloy can function with Pidgin as an IRC client.
17:46	rbuchmann	wow, what is that supposed to do?
17:46	gfrlog	VT_entity: anyhow, you're not looping at any point, so there's no reason for it to do anything more than once
17:46	hiredman	digusting
17:46	VT_entity	I figured the conditional statement would continue the loop as long as the count of the members of examplelist remains above 9
17:46	rbuchmann	ah, reading descriptions helps :-/ Sorry about that
17:46	VT_entity	0*
17:47	VT_entity	ah, i'll try to add in recure
17:47	VT_entity	recur*
17:47	gfrlog	VT_entity: look at (loop) also
17:47	rbuchmann	you'll need something to recur to
17:47	rbuchmann	(if ...) is not it
17:48	amalloy	Raynes: i know, i risk making myself an outcast just by mentioning it
17:48	VT_entity	aaah I understand
17:48	dpritchett	i'm using xchat on windows
17:48	VT_entity	what if I name the function and make if recur back to itself
17:48	dpritchett	i don't love it but it required a tad less manual reading than irssi
17:48	dpritchett	honestly i miss mirc from ten years ago
17:48	rbuchmann	that'd word
17:48	rbuchmann	*work
17:48	rbuchmann	what are you actually trying to do?
17:48	VT_entity	probably blow the stack, not optimized I guess
17:49	amalloy	i think he's just implementing ##(map inc '(1 2 3 4 5))
17:49	sexpbot	⟹ (2 3 4 5 6)
17:49	VT_entity	well, my friend and I were talking about whether it's possible to do something like FOR EACH in a purely functional way.
17:49	rbuchmann	ofcourse
17:49	VT_entity	so, we came up with the idea of incrementing each item in a list by one.
17:49	rbuchmann	either (map ...
17:49	rbuchmann	or doseq
17:49	amalloy	rbuchmann: doseq isn't very functional
17:50	hiredman	~people
17:50	clojurebot	max people is 317
17:50	amalloy	&(for [x [1 2 3 4 5]] (inc x))
17:50	sexpbot	⟹ (2 3 4 5 6)
17:50	rbuchmann	not much worse that recur though :)
17:50	VT_entity	@______@
17:50	dpritchett	oh no, a noir patch?
17:50	VT_entity	oh damn amalloy
17:50	ibdknox	just pushing the latest unstable build
17:50	ibdknox	for those who wish to follow along
17:51	hiredman	~#7
17:51	clojurebot	7. It is easier to write an incorrect program than understand a correct one.
17:51	VT_entity	wait, what's the ampersand?
17:51	hiredman	rbuchmann: how is recur not functional?
17:51	amalloy	tells sexpbot to start paying some damn attention
17:51	VT_entity	oooooh
17:52	rbuchmann	in a style kind of way :hiredman :)
17:53	VT_entity	ah, but the for is still kind of a FOR EACH isn't it.
17:53	hiredman	rbuchmann: what does that mean?
17:53	hiredman	loop/recur is a functional looping construct
17:54	rbuchmann	hiredman: of course
17:54	rbuchmann	nvm :)
17:57	ibdknox	I think it's more that one should favor higher order functions over loop/recur and so while that is functional it's not as steeped in the spirit of functional programming as another solution would be
17:57	ibdknox	shrug
18:11	gfrlog	ibdknox: loop/recur could be done as a higher-order function. I think it's just harder to reason about than other expressions
18:11	gfrlog	(map) is much easier to understand than the equivalent thing done with loop-recur
18:11	ibdknox	gfrlog: very true
18:12	gfrlog	I should say harder to reason about when there are simpler/other ways of expressing the thing
18:12	gfrlog	certainly sometimes loop is the simplest thing to do
18:12	gfrlog	maybe that was tautological... :(
18:12	ibdknox	haha
18:13	ibdknox	in general, it's true
18:13	ibdknox	that's good enough I think ;)
19:16	matthias_	huh, i tried using swank.core/break, but i couldnt get it to work. got an error "no such namespace: <mynamespace>" when i tried to compile anything. i now reverted all those changes and i still get that error. with the same code that used to work... and it seems like i can compile it when i type (use '<mynamespace>) in the repl...
19:16	matthias_	wtf
19:30	bsteuber	matthias_: "no such namespace" means you need to require/use the namespace, so this makes perfect sense to me
19:31	matthias_	the namespace is created in the file i'm trying to compile
19:31	bsteuber	hmm ok, that makes less sense :)
19:32	hiredman	matthias_: what do you mean by compile?
19:32	matthias_	C-c M-k
19:32	matthias_	C-c C-c gives me the same error
19:33	hiredman	C-c C-k
19:33	matthias_	ok, wtf
19:33	matthias_	tried it again and it works
19:34	matthias_	hmm, C-c C-k works too.
19:34	hiredman	C-c C-c will try to run the toplevel form under the cursor in the namespace of the file you are in
19:34	hiredman	it will fail if the namespace doesn't exist
19:34	matthias_	the menu says that's Compile/Load file as opposed to compiel file
19:34	hiredman	(before compiling)
19:34	hiredman	use C-c C-k
19:34	matthias_	oh
19:35	matthias_	so it worked later because i had typed (use 'blabla) in the repl and that compiled it?
19:35	hiredman	most likely
19:35	matthias_	so that actually makes sense
19:36	matthias_	thanks :p
19:36	hiredman	I am not sure what the behavior of C-c M-k is with clojure, because you can't just compile, compiling in clojure is always compile and load
19:37	matthias_	what does compile and load mean?
19:37	bsteuber	I expected the two to be synonymous, but maybe they're not
19:37	hiredman	they are for clojure
19:38	bsteuber	sure, for CL it's different
19:38	matthias_	synonymous? so "compile" doesnt work, but "compile and compile" does? ;)
19:38	hiredman	compile is code generation, load is loading (and running) code
19:38	hiredman	so, like, for c compiling and loading are very different
19:40	matthias_	so C-c C-k would run a c program after it's done compiling?
19:41	hiredman	C-c C-k is just compile, so it would just compile it to object code or an executable of some kind
19:41	hiredman	er
19:41	hiredman	C-c M-k
19:41	hiredman	C-c C-k would compile and then run it
19:43	jcromartie	so, has Hiccup won? or what?
19:44	jcromartie	I don't hear much about enlive, as powerful as it is
19:44	jcromartie	it seems like Hiccup is easier
19:44	amalloy	jcromartie: i like hiccup. real web developers like enlive
19:44	jcromartie	"Real web developers" huh?
19:44	jcromartie	I am tempted to go with StringTemplate
19:44	hiredman	depends if you are looking for templating or just something better then concating strings
19:45	scottj	jcromartie: ppl other than weavejester :)
19:45	gfrlog	I lost my ability to write <html> when the rails folk switched to haml; so I use hiccup.
19:45	jcromartie	hah, Haml is great
19:45	gfrlog	haml doesn't feel very much like clojure though
19:45	jcromartie	well, it was nice being here
19:45	jcromartie	bye
19:45	jcromartie	:)
19:45	amalloy	jcromartie: eg, brehaut hates hiccup because he can't just open up the html file in his html editor, or even see what the page looks like without starting a clojure webserver
19:46	jcromartie	scrabble
19:46	gfrlog	jcromartie: scrabble
19:46	gfrlog	oh I didn't see the typo; I thought "playing scrabble" had something to do with saying "scrabble"
19:46	gfrlog	so I was joining in
20:28	matthias_	,(update-in {:test "bla"} [:test] #(%))
20:28	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
20:28	matthias_	why is that?
20:29	matthias_	oh it works if i use (fn [s] s). thought that would be the same
20:29	hiredman	,(macroexpand '#(%))
20:29	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__803#] (p1__803#))
20:30	dnolen	,(update-in {:test "bla"} [:test] identity)
20:30	clojurebot	{:test "bla"}
20:34	matthias_	i dont understand why #(%) doesnt work
20:34	hiredman	,(macroexpand '#(%))
20:34	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__808#] (p1__808#))
20:34	matthias_	yeah i saw that
20:35	hiredman	well, there you go
20:35	matthias_	doesnt tell me anything :p
20:35	hiredman	uh
20:35	hiredman	you can read the code right?
20:36	matthias_	i dont know what fn* is. looks like its calling its argument though. which is strange. cause i dont think its supposed to
20:36	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(fn [x] x))
20:36	clojurebot	(fn* ([x] x))
20:36	hiredman	that is exactly what #() is
20:38	matthias_	i must have learned that wrong... but i've been using that # syntax for a while now... ;) (still a clojure newb though)
20:38	hiredman	if that is not what #() is, what would #(str %) expand to?
20:39	matthias_	oh
20:39	dnolen	,((fn [x] x) "foo")
20:39	clojurebot	"foo"
20:39	dnolen	,((fn [x] (x)) "foo")
20:39	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
20:39	hiredman	if #(%) expanded to (fn [x] x) then #(str %) would be (fn [x] str x)
20:40	hiredman	hardly seems useful
20:41	amalloy	matthias_: fwiw, what you meant by #(%) is just identity
20:50	amalloy	seancorfield: interesting. what've you changed in congomongo?
20:53	seancorfield	added 1.3 support
20:54	seancorfield	the owner of the congomongo group on clojars seems to have gone awol and i need it in a repo since i'm starting to share it with my team
20:55	seancorfield	every other library we depend on is already in a public repo... except congomongo 0.1.5-SNAPSHOT :(
20:56	seancorfield	ideally, i'd have update permissions on the existing congomongo group on clojars but...
21:00	matthias_	shouldnt lisps have some kind of "close all open parentheses" thing? i mean you often end up with ))))))) at the end of a function...
21:01	dnolen	matthias_: that sort of thing is why people use paredit, or a Lisp-aware text editor.
21:01	seancorfield	most of us use an edit mode that balances parens automatically
21:01	seancorfield	i use eclipse + ccw
21:02	matthias_	yeah i use one too. still dont like it.
21:03	seancorfield	oh, so you mean some magical syntax that means "close all open parentheses"?
21:03	matthias_	yeah
21:03	seancorfield	like... #) ...?
21:03	seancorfield	as an example
21:03	matthias_	yeah
21:04	matthias_	i'm sure its a bad idea for some reason... ;)
21:04	amalloy	seancorfield: i've heard of some lisps that use ] for that
21:04	amalloy	but yes, it's a bad idea
21:04	matthias_	why?
21:04	clojurebot	why not?
21:04	seancorfield	amalloy: i had some vague recollection of reading something about that once...
21:04	amalloy	matthias_: it would be so easy to make mistakes when editing the code
21:05	seancorfield	well, for a start () is a form but ((] looks... wrong... and doesn't balance
21:05	amalloy	eg, (defun do-stuff (x) (whatever x]
21:05	amalloy	then later you decide this should be placed inside a closure, or a CLOS class
21:05	seancorfield	yeah, then you need to balance the parens anyway
21:06	seancorfield	to be honest, i really don't notice the parens these days
21:06	amalloy	seancorfield: and if you forgot, the error messages would likely be pretty bad
21:06	seancorfield	:) yup
21:07	seancorfield	and it's not like lisp / clojure has the best error messages in the first place
21:07	clizzin	what's the best way to deal with configuration information that you want read into the project but don't want in the source code, e.g. database hosts/user/pw?
21:07	clizzin	for clojure projects
21:07	seancorfield	where would you prefer to keep it?
21:07	matthias_	really? if you had something like ] bla bla), it should be able to tell you exactly what's wrong i think
21:07	clizzin	seancorfield: in something like a yml file
21:07	clizzin	in project root
21:07	amalloy	matthias_: not so! bla and bla would have compile errors before it got to )
21:07	amalloy	matthias_: anyway the main thing i'd dislike is the way it makes later editing a landmine in all kinds of ways
21:07	seancorfield	so you'd need to read the file at startup...
21:07	clizzin	it would live only on the app server and in dev environment but not in the repo
21:07	clizzin	yup
21:08	clizzin	i feel like leiningen supports this somehow, but i don't remember how it's done anymore
21:08	amalloy	but really, what is the gain of having ] anyway? you'd still need to stack up ))))) quite often
21:09	seancorfield	we use a clojure map for our configuration ... and so it is in our source code
21:09	amalloy	$google clj-config
21:09	sexpbot	First out of 8100 results is: marklazz/clj-record-blog - GitHub
21:09	sexpbot	https://github.com/marklazz/clj-record-blog
21:10	amalloy	hrm
21:10	amalloy	well, Raynes wrote a super-lightweight config library. it basically just reads from ./config.clj
21:11	Raynes	It reads from whatever file you want it to. It's just a wrapper around slurping/spitting etc with some convenience functions.
21:11	seancorfield	https://github.com/Raynes/clj-config
21:11	Raynes	I wrote it 100 years ago.
21:11	clizzin	haha
21:11	amalloy	Raynes: "basically", in context meaning "whatever i want it to mean"
21:11	seancorfield	may 3rd 2010 was the first commit :D
21:12	clizzin	sounds like i should just do my own thing
21:12	seancorfield	we have all the system configs in one environments.clj file and automatically select the appropriate one, based on hostname, at startup
22:02	dnolen	interesting, parsing with monads can be slow, http://carlo-hamalainen.net/blog/2011/02/11/parsing-with-monads-can-be-slow/
22:04	dnolen	I'm assuming Parsec has optimizations to get around this, wonder what similarities they have to optimizing DCGs if any.
22:06	Scriptor	reading about the difference between next/more here
22:06	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
22:07	Scriptor	so basically, calling seq() on a sequence forces the evaluation of the first element of that sequence?
22:07	dnolen	Scriptor: yes
22:11	Scriptor	aha
22:24	amalloy	Scriptor: the ISeq interface has methods first() and rest(). because nil can be stored in a sequence, first() can't return nil to indicate "no elements"
22:24	amalloy	so instead, functions that return an ISeq (such as clojure.core/seq) must force the first element just to see if it exists in order to decide whether to return an ISeq or nil
22:25	amalloy	there would be other problems, like even-harder nil-punning, if ISeq objects could say "nope! no elements here!" but that strikes me as the main one
22:31	amalloy	gfrlog: in common lisp: (defun count (seq) (if seq (1+ (count (cdr seq))) 0))
22:31	amalloy	gfrlog: doesn't work in clojure, because empty seqs evaluate to true
22:32	amalloy	the "pun" is treating an empty sequence as false
22:33	gfrlog	I guess I cdr get it...