2011-06-13
| 01:31 | technomancy | clojurebot: jira is <reply>Well, *have* you got a 27B/6? |
| 01:31 | clojurebot | Huh? |
| 01:31 | technomancy | whatevs |
| 05:54 | Dranik | hi all1 |
| 06:21 | clgv | what is the idiomatic way to do mutual recursion (2 functions) without causing a stackoverflow? I don't see a straightforward loop-recur approach |
| 06:24 | djpowell | Is there a problem with github? I get a 403 error from doing git pull on an existing repository |
| 06:26 | clgv | one suggestion I found is using trampoline - is that the idiomatic one? are there others? |
| 06:28 | wallaw | hey, is the something like the C# xsd.exe schema compiler available for clojure? |
| 07:04 | Useful-_ | I started writing a question, and realised the answer half way through writing it. Thanks for the help all :) |
| 07:05 | raek | clgv: maybe generate a lazy sequence of the intermediate values |
| 07:06 | raek | realization of lazy sequences works kinda like trampoline in a sense |
| 07:06 | clgv | raek: hm true. so I have to decide which of the two is the more direct write down of my functions |
| 07:07 | raek | Stuart Halloway has a part about this in his book Programming Clojure |
| 07:07 | clgv | ok, gotta look that up now ;) |
| 07:13 | raek | Section 5.4, page 167 |
| 07:13 | clgv | raek: thx. guessed it from the table of contents ;) |
| 07:15 | clgv | my only problem is that I have another between the recursive function calls which causes some knots in my brain with the trmpoline example ;) |
| 07:16 | clgv | *another function. |
| 07:16 | clgv | guess I have to draw a sketch of it to get rid of the knots ;) |
| 07:20 | manutter | clgv: there's a nice freeware app from vue.tufts.edu that's good for flow charts, concept maps, etc. |
| 07:21 | manutter | May be overkill for what you need, but I'm a big fan so I thought I'd mention it :) |
| 07:23 | raek | clgv: another alternative is to have a function that takes a state argument which it uses in a case form to select which body to use and then recur |
| 07:24 | raek | having functions calling each other in a CPS-ish way is like a state machine too |
| 07:25 | raek | so a state arg makes the state explicit, instead of existing implicitly in the call stack |
| 07:31 | clgv | raek: yeah sounded pretty much like a state machine to me ;) |
| 07:32 | clgv | the task that I do is: implementing a sort of cartesian-product on a tree structure |
| 07:33 | clgv | I have a tree description for parameter values of a configuration that can have sub-configurations that may hold parameter values and sub-configurations as well |
| 07:35 | clgv | I just noticed that my current recursive implementation is not a tail recursion right now. I have rewrite that one... |
| 07:36 | Vinzent | Protocol functions can't have var-args? |
| 07:38 | clgv | Vinzent: yes, they cannot have var-args |
| 07:38 | clgv | Vinzent: '& will be interpreted as variable name |
| 07:39 | Vinzent | clgv, ok... thanks |
| 07:39 | clgv | Vinzent: I ran into that one as well some time ago. if you really need it you can simply define a normal function |
| 07:43 | Vinzent | clgv, yes, but it requires a lot of code, i think it doesn't matter in my case |
| 08:04 | lnostdal-laptop | ,(map (fn [char] (print char)) "hello") |
| 08:04 | clojurebot | hello |
| 08:04 | clojurebot | (nil nil nil nil nil) |
| 08:05 | lnostdal-laptop | odd .. clojure-1.3 from git returns a completely different result |
| 08:05 | manutter | that is odd -- that's the correct result |
| 08:06 | manutter | the function will print one char and return nil, and map assembles all the nils into a seq of nils |
| 08:06 | manutter | what does 1.3 return? |
| 08:06 | lnostdal-laptop | just: (henil lnil lnil onil nil) |
| 08:07 | lnostdal-laptop | ..which doesn't make sense |
| 08:07 | Bronsa | yes it does |
| 08:07 | manutter | ah, ok, that's a lettle less odd then |
| 08:07 | manutter | It's just interspersing the print output with the repl result output |
| 08:08 | lnostdal-laptop | any way for it to not do that? |
| 08:08 | Bronsa | its doint that only at the repl |
| 08:08 | Bronsa | *it's |
| 08:08 | lnostdal-laptop | (i use print output to debug, but still want to see proper result output) |
| 08:09 | Vinzent | btw, is there the update function in 1.3? |
| 08:09 | lnostdal-laptop | i tried both the terminal and emacs+slime actually; same result |
| 08:09 | Vinzent | (signature like in assoc, works like update-in) |
| 08:09 | manutter | hmm, try wrapping your function in with-out-str? |
| 08:10 | manutter | ,(doc with-out-str) |
| 08:10 | clojurebot | "([& body]); Evaluates exprs in a context in which *out* is bound to a fresh StringWriter. Returns the string created by any nested printing calls." |
| 08:10 | lnostdal-laptop | that results in "" |
| 08:11 | manutter | You need to do something like (def my-out (with-out-str (map (fn [c] (print c)) "hello")) my-out |
| 08:12 | lnostdal-laptop | my-out => "" |
| 08:12 | manutter | Hm, that surprises me... |
| 08:13 | lnostdal-laptop | i'll try updating swank-clojure |
| 08:14 | raek | I think the problem is laziness and dynamic rebinding of *out* |
| 08:15 | raek | try (with-out-str (dorun (map (fn [c] (print c)) "hello"))) |
| 08:15 | manutter | Ah yes |
| 08:15 | Bronsa | yes |
| 08:15 | lnostdal-laptop | that worked, raek |
| 08:16 | lnostdal-laptop | but i'm not sure what's going on, though |
| 08:16 | lnostdal-laptop | reading up on dorun now |
| 08:16 | Bronsa | it's because map returns a lazy-seq |
| 08:16 | Bronsa | that doesnt get evaluated |
| 08:16 | Bronsa | you need to dorun it in order to evaluate it |
| 08:17 | raek | with-out-str creates a string writer, executes the body and then makes the string of what has been written |
| 08:17 | manutter | when you type it directly at the REPL, the REPL forces the lazy seq to be realized |
| 08:17 | manutter | when you run it inside with-out-str, the REPL is no longer directly printing the output, so the result stays lazy |
| 08:17 | raek | but map is lazy, so the body just returns a lazy-seq object that hasn't done any side-effects yet |
| 08:18 | lnostdal-laptop | ok |
| 08:21 | lnostdal-laptop | doall actually |
| 08:21 | lnostdal-laptop | ..will print hello .. then return the complete result |
| 08:21 | lnostdal-laptop | coming from a CL background; this is closer to Haskell or something :) |
| 08:22 | manutter | Try coming from PHP... ;) |
| 08:23 | lnostdal-laptop | hm, yeah, i'm doing PHP at work now .. it's clumsy :P .. will switch to Clojure there soon though :) |
| 08:23 | manutter | oh, envy. We're stuck with PHP for the duration. I'm trying to find ways to squeeze it in though. |
| 08:31 | lnostdal-laptop | ok, gotta go .. cya later, and thanks! |
| 08:45 | kephale | I am working with a namespace from a namespace that someone else develops which changes frequently, but requires some extra modifications to be useful for me. What is the best way to load/override the functions in that base namespace? |
| 08:46 | kephale | Currently I just have a file that enters the namespace and loads/overloads all the definitions with my versions |
| 08:46 | clgv | kephale: sounds like a really strange approach |
| 08:46 | kephale | but that leads to order-dependent use flags |
| 08:47 | kephale | clgv: yeah its really awkward |
| 08:48 | clgv | what exactly do you have to adjust? |
| 08:49 | kephale | there are some functions that display the status of some loops (evolutionary computation stuff, so the loops are long in terms of wall clock time) where I overload those display functions to provide extra information |
| 08:49 | raek | kephale: sounds like you should consider making a fork or talking to the author |
| 08:50 | raek | kephale: technomancy's robert.hooke could be possible to use too |
| 08:50 | kephale | raek: forking was my original solution, but sometimes the updates can be frequent enough and lead to enough clashes that it was becoming an impractical approach |
| 08:51 | kephale | I'll look into robert.hooke though, not familiar with that |
| 08:51 | raek | https://github.com/technomancy/robert-hooke |
| 08:51 | raek | it allows you to add hooks to other people's functions |
| 08:52 | raek | and you can override the original behavior |
| 08:52 | kephale | OooooOooo |
| 08:52 | kephale | hot tip! |
| 08:52 | raek | might not be very stable to do this on private defs, though |
| 08:54 | kephale | I'll risk it : P |
| 08:55 | clgv | kephale: but displaying statusinfos hardwired sounds like a not so good design decision anyway |
| 08:56 | clgv | kephale: mybe you can talk the author into providing them via optional parameters or something like that... |
| 08:56 | kephale | clgv: i didn't really describe that part the best way. we're doing genetic programming and are crunching statistics on the population of programs at each generation. |
| 08:58 | kephale | some of the statistics are essential, and i have some extra ones that are critical to my experiments. plus there are a few other situations where i need to override functions for the reproduction of programs and such |
| 09:02 | void_ | Hi, what should I do in this situation: I have a "layout" function which is called by view functions to render content inside of layout. Those view functions are called by controller functions. |
| 09:02 | void_ | Now I want to add listing from DB to the layout. Should I pass the data to view functions, and then pass the data to layout function? I don't want to call database from view. |
| 09:02 | void_ | How do you people solve this? In Rails/whatever you would just set an ivar with the data and display it. |
| 09:04 | manutter | what's an ivar? |
| 09:04 | Vinzent | void_, you can get data in your function, pass it to view, and wrap it in layout in middlewares (if I've understood your question correctly) |
| 09:04 | void_ | manutter: instance variable |
| 09:04 | manutter | ah, gotcha |
| 09:05 | void_ | Vinzent: well, the problem is, data is not needed by view, but by layout |
| 09:05 | void_ | so if layout was added by middlewere, how would I pass it data? |
| 09:06 | void_ | as a temp solution, layout just takes data from db |
| 09:07 | timvisher | hey all |
| 09:07 | timvisher | anyone familiar with clj-http or a related technology? |
| 09:07 | timvisher | i'm getting a response from http://interfacelift.com/wallpaper/details/2608/venice.html that surprises me |
| 09:07 | timvisher | the body has nothing but '\n' in it |
| 09:08 | timvisher | it works with on google but google doesn't start it's body with \n |
| 09:08 | timvisher | wondering if this is a known behavior |
| 09:08 | Vinzent | void_, ah! don't know, I think I'd just split it into 2 functions |
| 09:09 | manutter | timvisher: are you setting a user-agent header? The interfacelift.com may be mistaking you for a bot and sending you an empty body |
| 09:09 | timvisher | mmm |
| 09:10 | timvisher | that sounds highly likely |
| 09:10 | clgv | manutter: then it's actually not "mistaking him for a bot", isnt it? ;) |
| 09:10 | void_ | try curl ? |
| 09:10 | manutter | well, for a certain kind of bot, I mean. You know--badbots. |
| 09:11 | clgv | lol :D |
| 09:12 | timvisher | void_: do you know the curl command off the top of your head that shows the body? |
| 09:12 | timvisher | I'm getting 'data not shown' where I would expect to see the body |
| 09:12 | void_ | I mean just command line curl |
| 09:13 | void_ | it shows body by default |
| 09:13 | manutter | If curl is giving you "data not shown" then you're probably getting back binary data |
| 09:13 | void_ | well, look |
| 09:13 | void_ | vojto ~ $ curl "http://interfacelift.com/wallpaper/details/2608/venice.html" |
| 09:13 | void_ | vojto ~ $ |
| 09:13 | void_ | just empty |
| 09:14 | manutter | I think you need to see the headers, particularly content-type and content-length |
| 09:14 | void_ | -i |
| 09:15 | timvisher | void_: that's what I thought. So it seems manutter is probably right |
| 09:15 | timvisher | i'll mess around with the headers i'm sending |
| 09:18 | timvisher | well. good news is that setting the user-agent to the chrome string seems to be returning a body. Bad news is that the stupid slime error I've been getting since Friday is choking on displaying the results... |
| 09:21 | timvisher | any guesses? https://gist.github.com/1022749 |
| 09:21 | timvisher | this is killing my ability to develop... |
| 09:22 | manutter | you've rebooted your system since you started getting those errors? |
| 09:23 | timvisher | nope |
| 09:23 | timvisher | try not to knee-jerk re-boot. Makes me feel like a windows user. ;) |
| 09:23 | timvisher | what would that affect though? |
| 09:23 | timvisher | I've completely deleted and reinstalled slime a few times |
| 09:23 | manutter | Yeah, I know what you mean. The error text seems like it's having network issues |
| 09:24 | timvisher | mmm |
| 09:24 | timvisher | ok |
| 09:24 | manutter | maybe there's a bad socket stuck somewhere? |
| 09:24 | timvisher | well i shall bring my uptime back to 0 and see if that helps :) |
| 09:24 | timvisher | thanks1 |
| 09:24 | timvisher | thanks!* |
| 09:24 | manutter | I don't know if that's even possible, but I'd knee jerk here :) |
| 09:32 | timvisher | boo |
| 09:32 | timvisher | restarting brings no change |
| 09:32 | manutter | :( |
| 09:33 | manutter | damn windows users... |
| 09:33 | timvisher | lol |
| 09:33 | clgv | timvisher: that was the remaining windows user portion in you that had this foolish hope ;) |
| 09:34 | timvisher | so what can i do to debug this? |
| 09:34 | timvisher | it seems to be related directly to what I'm attempting to print |
| 09:34 | timvisher | i can execute and display most things find |
| 09:34 | timvisher | fine* |
| 09:35 | raek | timvisher: that looks really scary... why do you get HTML from some site with amazon ads in your swank-clojure socket stream? |
| 09:35 | manutter | ok, so something is coming through the data channel that's making it choke |
| 09:35 | timvisher | but so far i have 3 examples of slime killing things: https://gist.github.com/1022749, https://gist.github.com/1018899, and https://gist.github.com/1018881 |
| 09:36 | timvisher | raek: I agree. I think i'm already being a really bad internet citizen and claiming to be chrome when I'm not |
| 09:36 | manutter | are you using CDT at all? |
| 09:36 | timvisher | I just want to verify that it works before I do it right. |
| 09:36 | timvisher | not intentionally |
| 09:36 | raek | timvisher: are you runing a web server on the computer? |
| 09:36 | manutter | heh, that's true, *good* internet citizens only claim to be Mozilla when they're not. |
| 09:37 | timvisher | raek: I sometimes do |
| 09:37 | timvisher | before Friday that never seemed to cause an issue. |
| 09:37 | timvisher | I'm not running it right now |
| 09:37 | raek | currenlty? |
| 09:37 | raek | timvisher: which OS, btw? |
| 09:38 | timvisher | os x 10.6.7 |
| 09:38 | raek | looks like malware that injects popups in all socket streams or something... |
| 09:38 | timvisher | raek: ah, you're saying that it may not be in the interfacelift stream at all? |
| 09:38 | timvisher | hadn't even considered that |
| 09:39 | manutter | ah, do you have google toolbar or something? |
| 09:39 | raek | timvisher: erh. you were using a http client. then it makes more sense... |
| 09:39 | raek | timvisher: I think this could be an encoding issue |
| 09:39 | timvisher | raek: it's in the view source when I get the page from Chrome |
| 09:40 | raek | (didn't read the whole problem...) |
| 09:40 | timvisher | manutter: I have a ton of crap, but I don't have google toolbar |
| 09:40 | raek | timvisher: try customizing the slime-net-coding-system to utf-8-unix |
| 09:40 | timvisher | Quicksilver? |
| 09:40 | manutter | that's a thought--are you setting a character-encoding header in your client call? |
| 09:40 | timvisher | manutter: I am not |
| 09:40 | timvisher | but in both of these cases I have utf-8 chars present |
| 09:41 | timvisher | at least I know I do in my app |
| 09:41 | raek | timvisher: what happens if you write the character "µ" in your repl? |
| 09:41 | timvisher | and it's possible that interface lift has it |
| 09:41 | raek | the error you get is from Slime and not Clojure |
| 09:42 | timvisher | I get the same sort of error |
| 09:42 | raek | timvisher: then the problem is that Slime is configured for the wrong coding (swank used UTF-8) |
| 09:43 | raek | timvisher: you get the error when swank sends the result of your evaluation to be printed in Slime |
| 09:43 | raek | nad it contains a non-ASCII character |
| 09:43 | timvisher | that appears to be the case |
| 09:43 | timvisher | slime-net-coding-system is set to iso-latin-1-unix |
| 09:43 | timvisher | so i should set it to utf-8-unix |
| 09:43 | raek | yup |
| 09:44 | timvisher | should i need to restart emacs for that or just slime? |
| 09:44 | raek | if (seq "åäö") in the repl returns (\å \ä \ö), then the coding is set up right |
| 09:44 | raek | dunno, try "re-jack-in" |
| 09:47 | timvisher | You guys are the best! :) |
| 09:51 | raek | "just another service provided by your friendly neighborhood Encoding-Man!" |
| 09:55 | jweiss | question on code/data equivalence. if i want to write a DSL for automated testing, what's a recommended way to write the procedure for the test - it's code that's part of a larger data structure. So it's also data. from what i've seen in other projects i'm guessing the way to go is a closure. |
| 09:56 | jweiss | rather than quoted sexp |
| 10:01 | manutter | jweiss: sure, all you need to pass along is an anonymous function to be called when needed. |
| 10:48 | Dranik | did anyone found the solution for problem of displaying the unicode symbols in the ring-webapp? |
| 10:58 | Vinzent | Dranik, what's problem? Works good for me. btw, I've uploaded sample jaco project: https://github.com/dnaumov/jaco-examples/tree/master/src/jaco/examples |
| 11:01 | raek | Dranik: I think the problem discussed some day ago was fixed by having the "Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8" header in the response |
| 11:01 | Dranik | raek: how can I set that with Compojure? |
| 11:02 | Dranik | void_, hello! |
| 11:02 | raek | Dranik: when you return a response, you simply add it in the :headers map of it |
| 11:02 | Dranik | how did you fix the problem with unicode? |
| 11:02 | Dranik | raek: thanks, I'll try that... |
| 11:03 | raek | Dranik: you can use the ring util function 'content-type', which makes this a bit shorter |
| 11:08 | void_ | Dranik: Did it work? |
| 11:08 | void_ | I was stuck with it, because I used Content-type instead of Content-Type :) |
| 11:08 | void_ | but it's very simple |
| 11:10 | Dranik | void_, still trying |
| 11:11 | Dranik | void_, I can't get it. the function (content-type) works with the response, but I render a request |
| 11:11 | Dranik | how can I set the content type in the request? |
| 11:11 | void_ | you don't set content type in request |
| 11:11 | void_ | you want to change response |
| 11:11 | void_ | you render string/html/whatever to the response |
| 11:12 | Dranik | void_: could you please show me an example? |
| 11:12 | void_ | I just return this instead of string with html |
| 11:12 | void_ | {:status 200 :headers {"Content-Type" "text/html; charset=utf-8"} :body body} |
| 11:12 | void_ | while body is whatever html you want to render |
| 11:12 | void_ | I wrote a function that I call manually from controller functions |
| 11:12 | Dranik | let me try.... |
| 11:12 | void_ | of course it would be smarter to wrap it in middleware or something, but I don't need that now |
| 11:14 | Dranik | yep, that worked! thanks! |
| 11:15 | raek | (use '[ring.util.response :only [response content-type]) (-> the-html (response) (content-type "text/html; charset=utf-8")) |
| 11:16 | Dranik | raek: and how to do that for both request and response? |
| 11:19 | raek | Dranik: I don't understand. the Content-Type header is something you give in the response so that the client knows what type (and charset) the data is in |
| 11:20 | raek | there is also a Content-Type header in the request, bit that is for the payload the client sends with a POST request |
| 11:20 | Dranik | ok, let me try... |
| 11:21 | raek | GET parameters are always in UTF-8, so you don't need to specify any coding for them |
| 11:22 | raek | s/something you give/the client gives/ |
| 11:22 | raek | no, scratch that |
| 11:22 | raek | I misread my own utterance :) |
| 11:22 | raek | it was fine |
| 11:23 | Dranik | raek: something is wrong with your code. I've pasted it and it doesn't work...((( |
| 11:26 | solussd | Could anyone here w/ experience using both conjure and compojure speak to the advantages of compojure over conjure? Compojure seems to be much more popular and I don't understand why. |
| 11:27 | raek | Dranik: sorry, there is a ] missing after "content-type" |
| 11:28 | void_ | solussd: first time hearing about something called Conjure |
| 11:28 | raek | http://clojuredocs.org/ring/ring.util.response |
| 11:29 | void_ | but it looks nice Conjure is a Rails like framework for the Clojure programming language |
| 11:29 | void_ | https://github.com/macourtney/Conjure |
| 11:29 | Dranik | raek: Unable to resolve symbol: the-html in this context |
| 11:31 | Vinzent | i guess you should replace it with your html code or whatever you want to send to the outup |
| 11:32 | Vinzent | void_, I prefer compojure because it's much simplier and more "clojurish" (but i have no experierence with conjure, just read throught the wiki) |
| 11:35 | raek | Dranik: sorry, "the-html" was a placeholder for the html code you generate |
| 11:36 | raek | Dranik: you could use "<h1>åäö</h1>" to test with |
| 11:38 | Dranik | raek, Vinzent: finally I've got that! thanks |
| 11:38 | raek | Dranik: maby ring-based tools automatically wraps a repsonse that is a string in a {:status 200, :headers {}, :body <the string here>} map. normally you make the map yourself (possibly with 'response') in larger apps than hello world |
| 11:40 | raek | I recommend reading the ring spec to get a feeling for the concepts of ring (requests, responses and handlers): https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/SPEC |
| 11:46 | Dranik | raek: thanks |
| 11:46 | Vinzent | Dranik, np. But i don't understand why i can't reproduce the bug? All my pages already have correct headers without setting content-type manually. Is this behaviour changed in the latest compojure\ring versions or what? |
| 11:47 | Dranik | Vinzent: I dunno, I've just tried to put cyrillic symbols and had ???????? string instead normal letters |
| 11:48 | Vinzent | Dranik, interesting... I've only have problems with codepage in earlier versions of leiningen |
| 12:01 | Dranik | Vinzent which version of leiningen and compojure do u have? |
| 12:10 | chas | 1 |
| 12:19 | Vinzent | Dranik, sompojure 0.6.3 and lein 1.3.1, with standard set of middlewares (params, public, etc) |
| 12:22 | gfrlog | $google sompojure |
| 12:22 | sexpbot | First out of results is: |
| 12:23 | manutter | $google typo |
| 12:23 | sexpbot | First out of 3550000 results is: Typographical error - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
| 12:23 | sexpbot | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typographical_error |
| 12:23 | clgv | lllol^^ |
| 12:25 | gfrlog | The important thing that we've learned is that "Sompojure" is an available project name :) |
| 12:26 | clgv | gfrlog: if there is no trademark on it, then compojure is available as well ;) |
| 12:27 | Dranik | Vinzent: my compojure is 0.6.2 and lein 1.4.2 |
| 12:27 | gfrlog | W000! time to make me some moneys |
| 12:27 | Cozey | hi. will jetty 7 be supproted by ring? |
| 12:27 | gfrlog | I see somebody is already squatting on compojure.com |
| 12:47 | edw | If I wanted to serialize e.g. a regular expression using contrib.json, how would I go about doing that? (I don't need to round-trip the regex, just serialize it.) |
| 12:59 | TimMc | edw: Who is consuming it? |
| 13:04 | jweiss | is there a way to preserve the source of an anonymous fn? Let's say my fn is a test procedure, i want to print out the procedure in the results. but once it's compiled i don't seem to have access to the source |
| 13:06 | clgv | jweiss: you cannot as is - but you can implement a defn-like macro that writes down the source as meta data in the defn statement |
| 13:07 | jweiss | clgv: i guess defn must do it so i could steal pieces of it, right |
| 13:07 | amalloy | jweiss: defn doesn't do it |
| 13:07 | jweiss | amalloy: no? how does clojure.repl/source-fn get it? |
| 13:07 | clgv | jweiss: your only option to access code of a function is to intercept the function definition with a macro |
| 13:08 | jweiss | backtracks to an actual source file? |
| 13:08 | amalloy | &(-> first var meta (juxt :line :file)) |
| 13:08 | sexpbot | ⟹ #<core$juxt$fn__3663 clojure.core$juxt$fn__3663@1a281b4> |
| 13:08 | amalloy | hm |
| 13:08 | technomancy | jweiss: https://github.com/Seajure/serializable-fn sorta |
| 13:08 | amalloy | &(-> first var meta ((juxt :line :file))) |
| 13:08 | sexpbot | ⟹ [48 "clojure/core.clj"] |
| 13:08 | jweiss | clgv: ok, that should be pretty straightforward, i hope |
| 13:10 | clgv | jweiss: technomancy's link could be a start afair |
| 13:10 | edw | TimMc: The output should be the pattern string, so that a tool can use it to generate a pattern when consuming the JSON output. I figured it out: <https://gist.github.com/1023199>. |
| 13:10 | jweiss | clgv: technomancy: yup that's pretty much it. thanks |
| 13:14 | amalloy | what ever happened to the proposal to have a public function for parsing defn args (with optional docstring etc) and then making defn and defmacro use it? |
| 13:14 | technomancy | it has some issues about only working with closures over certain types of expressions |
| 13:15 | technomancy | patches welcome |
| 13:17 | clgv | amalloy: good question. copy&pasting the part from defn is really fragile (and copy&paste ;) ) |
| 13:18 | Vinzent | there is name-with-attributes |
| 13:18 | Vinzent | in contrib |
| 13:25 | amalloy | Vinzent: good find. that seems to handle the most common cases; with this around it seems like the real thing might not be needed |
| 13:26 | amalloy | eg it doesn't read/set :arglist meta for you, but mostly that's probably unnecessary |
| 13:28 | clgv | amalloy: but I feel a little unsafe with something external. the best solution would be to be able to use exactly the same code that is used in defn |
| 14:38 | mvakilian | Hi everyone! |
| 14:38 | mvakilian | I'm Mohsen Vakilian, a PhD student working with Prof. Ralph Johnson at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC). |
| 14:38 | mvakilian | Ralph is a co-author of the seminal book on design patterns (GoF) and his research group has a history of important contributions to IDE's. |
| 14:38 | mvakilian | Our team <http://codingspectator.cs.illinois.edu/People> is studying how developers interact with the Eclipse IDE for evolving and maintaining their code. |
| 14:39 | mvakilian | We have noticed that some of the people in the Clojure community do Java programming, e.g. developers contributing to counterclockwise. |
| 14:40 | mvakilian | Therefore, we'd like to invite you to our research study on Eclipse, and would greatly value your help. |
| 14:40 | mvakilian | To participate you should be at least 18 years old and use Eclipse Helios for Java development. |
| 14:40 | mvakilian | As a participant, we ask that you complete a short survey and install our Eclipse plug-in called CodingSpectator <http://codingspectator.cs.illinois.edu/>. |
| 14:40 | mvakilian | CodingSpectator monitors programming interactions non-intrusively in the background and periodically uploads it to a secure server at UIUC. |
| 14:40 | mvakilian | To get a representative perspective of how you interact with Eclipse, we would appreciate if you could install CodingSpectator for two months. |
| 14:40 | mvakilian | Rest assured that we are taking the utmost measures to protect your privacy and confidentiality. |
| 14:40 | hiredman | mvakilian: buzz off |
| 14:42 | offby1 | odd. Not really spam; not trolling, probably well-intentioned ... yet nevertheless out of place |
| 14:42 | hiredman | ^- |
| 14:42 | mvakilian | Sorry for interrupting you guys. |
| 14:42 | mvakilian | I tried posting message to the mailing list but it didn't get approved. |
| 14:43 | mvakilian | I couldn't find another channel to invite Clojure developers to our study. |
| 14:43 | mids | next time try communicating your message without pasting a wall of text; it could have been a one liner |
| 14:44 | hiredman | your first post to the mailing list can take sometime to get approved |
| 14:44 | manutter | I might suggest putting the bulk of the text on a web page somewhere and then just saying "we're looking for volunteers to help with a study," with a link |
| 14:44 | mvakilian | I'd hang around just in case some of you are interested in helping our study and have questions. |
| 14:44 | offby1 | mvakilian: yes: a one or two line summary would surely have been better received. |
| 14:44 | manutter | I don't think people object to the topic so much as the volume of text |
| 14:44 | offby1 | mvakilian: but it's obvious that you're well-intentioned, so ... no harm done |
| 14:45 | mvakilian | I sent my message to the mailing list on 6/11/2011. |
| 14:45 | clojurebot | No entiendo |
| 14:46 | manutter | shush clojurebot nobody's talking to you. |
| 14:46 | mvakilian | There is already a web page that you can refer to get more information about our study and sign up: <http://codingspectator.cs.illinois.edu/ConsentForm/> |
| 14:47 | manutter | mvakilian, did you get back a rejection notice or just not get a response? |
| 14:48 | mvakilian | manutter: I didn't get any response. |
| 14:48 | manutter | Might be lost in the backlog or might have gotten mistaken for spam |
| 14:49 | manutter | You should post a tweet via twitter.com that says "UIUC researchers looking for #clojure volunteers to help with study", might get picked up and re-broadcast on disclojure.org. |
| 14:50 | manutter | oh, you'll need to include a shortened URL in that tweet too |
| 14:50 | mvakilian | manutter: Nice suggestion. We'll do that. |
| 16:12 | Somelauw | Hi for some reason I really need to think when I'm trying to indent lisp code. |
| 16:19 | Somelauw | yes, but I also don't know when to hit enter |
| 16:20 | Somelauw | So should your code be as short in length as possible or as small in width. |
| 16:20 | Somelauw | And I never got the hang of Emacs. |
| 16:21 | Somelauw | So I use cake in terminal + vim. |
| 16:30 | tremolo | Somelauw: Code should never be wider than 80 chars. This is law. |
| 16:42 | grantm | occasionally, i get stack traces that start at core.clj:0, which doesn't help me at all. how can i figure out where the actual bug is occurring? can i? |
| 16:46 | bartj | grantm, can you post your stack trace somewhere ? |
| 16:46 | bartj | *you |
| 16:46 | grantm | sure; although i actually figured it out - i was more hoping for general strategies |
| 16:47 | Somelauw | I made it a stackoverflow question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6335886/how-to-properly-indent-clojure-lisp |
| 16:50 | grantm | bartj: http://pastebin.com/ggFBX1F5 |
| 16:52 | bartj | grantm, I prefer and think the best way to have a look at stack traces is to look from the bottom |
| 16:52 | grantm | hm, okay |
| 16:52 | bartj | so in your case, it would be either in game.test |
| 16:52 | grantm | bartj: how do i get the rest of the trace? |
| 16:53 | bartj | also, it is preferable to look at *your* code first for errors |
| 16:53 | grantm | right :P |
| 16:53 | grantm | actually you're right... i didn't even notice the game.test.core stuff |
| 16:53 | bartj | ie. ignore all clojure.* libraries first |
| 16:53 | grantm | yeah |
| 16:54 | bartj | all the best with your clojure game (?) |
| 16:54 | grantm | thanks ... haha yup :P |
| 16:55 | grantm | a game is my first project in any new language |
| 16:57 | technomancy | has anyone ever used derive outside the context of multimethods? |
| 16:57 | technomancy | (not looking for help with a problem, just genuinely curious if it's a thing people do) |
| 16:57 | bdesham | speaking of games, anyone know of any games written in clojure? I'm writing one, but it feels awkward to have so much state in clojure |
| 16:58 | grantm | bdesham: we should talk :P |
| 16:59 | bdesham | grantm: :) |
| 17:01 | grantm | bdesham: i'm keeping it open source here https://github.com/johnfn/game but since i'm a few days new to the language i suspect most of my style is wrong :) |
| 17:07 | bdesham | grantm: neat. I'll have to take a look when I get a chance :) |
| 17:08 | grantm | bdesham: cool :) be sure to point me towards any cool stuff you make |
| 17:09 | bdesham | will do. I'm planning to put my project on github as well, once it's reached at least beta quality |
| 17:10 | grantm | sounds much further along than mine ;) |
| 17:10 | grantm | what kind of game is it? |
| 17:11 | dnolen | bdesham: Penumbra has a couple of games (Asteroids, Pong, Tetris) that come w/ it and somebody's been working on a dungeon game, http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/86d5e628f6b70125/b40901c22c996bde |
| 17:15 | bdesham | kind of an arcade/puzzle game |
| 17:15 | bdesham | not particularly graphics-heavy, but a little challenging... it's my first game, and my first big clojure project |
| 17:16 | grantm | nice! clojure is an interesting language choice for your first game :) |
| 17:17 | void_ | bdesham: I really like Mire, the one from Peepcode screencast |
| 17:17 | bdesham | I had had the idea for the game kicking around for a long time, and when I started learning clojure I thought, ok, I'll just code it in this |
| 17:17 | bdesham | turned out to be a weird choice, yes ;-) |
| 17:17 | void_ | https://github.com/technomancy/mire |
| 17:17 | void_ | ach technomancy wrote this too |
| 17:17 | bdesham | dnolen: void_: thanks for the links |
| 17:18 | bdesham | ha, along with leiningen? pretty impressive repertoire right there |
| 17:18 | grantm | wow, mire is pretty interesting |
| 17:23 | amalloy | bdesham: technomancy wrote a lot of things |
| 17:24 | amalloy | i guess "wrote" is wrong cause he keeps going. "has written" |
| 17:27 | jcromartie | I'm playing with markov chains here https://gist.github.com/1023496 |
| 17:28 | jcromartie | my markov-next function actually returns the next *chain* |
| 17:28 | jcromartie | and so markov-seq returns a seq of chains |
| 17:28 | jcromartie | they are mostly redundant, like ["one"] ["one" "two"] ["one" "two" "three"] |
| 17:29 | jcromartie | I'd really just like an infinite seq of words |
| 17:31 | jcromartie | gm |
| 17:31 | jcromartie | hm |
| 17:31 | jcromartie | got it :) map + iterate |
| 17:32 | amalloy | jcromartie: rand-nth already exists |
| 17:32 | jcromartie | oh cool |
| 17:33 | seancorfield | and there's map-indexed - in case you're just doing (iterate inc 0) |
| 17:34 | jcromartie | "man is vanity and vexation of his belly and the king shall be unclean seven days" |
| 17:34 | jcromartie | seancorfield: no, (map last (iterate gen-next-chain init-chain)) here https://gist.github.com/1023496 |
| 17:34 | brehaut | ,(map #(take 4 %) [(range) (iterate inc 0)]) |
| 17:34 | clojurebot | ((0 1 2 3) (0 1 2 3)) |
| 17:35 | brehaut | seancorfield: is there a subtle reason you wouldnt use range? chunking? |
| 17:36 | seancorfield | brehaut: i've seen (map f (iterate inc 0) some-seq) quite often so i was thinking of that |
| 17:36 | seancorfield | it wouldn't really matter whether they used (range) or (iterate inc 0) in that case |
| 17:37 | seancorfield | map-indexed would still be better |
| 17:37 | brehaut | oh for sure |
| 17:37 | amalloy | seancorfield: (iterate inc 0) made sense before (range) existed, i think |
| 17:37 | amalloy | (iterate inc 10) still makes sense since there's no way to give range a start point and no endpoint |
| 17:37 | seancorfield | yup |
| 17:38 | seancorfield | jcromartie: if you just want to flatten your seq of chains, you could just apply concat to it |
| 17:39 | jcromartie | not really |
| 17:39 | seancorfield | (apply concat seq-of-vectors) |
| 17:39 | amalloy | jcromartie: i did some work on a markov chainer for sexpbot months ago |
| 17:39 | jcromartie | each successive chain includes the priors |
| 17:39 | jcromartie | updated again: https://gist.github.com/1023496 |
| 17:39 | jcromartie | I think it's good |
| 17:39 | seancorfield | yeah, just looked and saw map last ... |
| 17:40 | amalloy | it's not running anymore because i got the mongo backend all wrong but if you want to look for inspiration it's on github |
| 17:40 | seancorfield | there's always so many ways to solve problems :) |
| 17:40 | amalloy | seancorfield: there's more than one way to do it…think we should steal the perl slogan? |
| 17:42 | seancorfield | lol... didn't know that was perl's m.o. :) |
| 17:42 | seancorfield | have you moved to LA yet? |
| 17:42 | amalloy | yep. i can hit lancepantz or ninjudd with a stick if they annoy me |
| 17:42 | seancorfield | enjoying the city of angels? |
| 17:42 | amalloy | or at any rate i'm close enough to. didn't think to put that in my contract though |
| 17:43 | amalloy | seancorfield: the city is eh. i like my apartment and the new job though |
| 17:45 | brehaut | amalloy: 100% less php? |
| 17:47 | amalloy | brehaut: yeah, and that seems unlikely to change |
| 17:47 | brehaut | awesome :) |
| 17:48 | bdesham | I'd like to call a function on each value in a map... is this a safe way to do it? https://gist.github.com/1023802 |
| 17:48 | bdesham | or should I be using a sorted map or something like that |
| 17:52 | [mattb] | user=> java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.math-functions |
| 17:52 | [mattb] | :( |
| 17:53 | [mattb] | er |
| 17:53 | [mattb] | user=> java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.generic.math-functions |
| 17:53 | amalloy | bdesham: ew |
| 17:53 | bdesham | haha |
| 17:53 | amalloy | (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)])) |
| 17:54 | amalloy | your way is safe but is both inefficient and hard to read |
| 17:55 | void_ | how do I get integer value from a string? |
| 17:55 | the-kenny | Integer/parseInt ? |
| 17:55 | void_ | thanks |
| 17:55 | the-kenny | I'm not sure if this is the best way, though |
| 17:55 | kephale | void_: or read-string |
| 17:55 | kephale | parseInt is probably faster though |
| 17:56 | bdesham | amalloy: ok, thanks! |
| 17:56 | gfrlog | I switched to clojure because I wanted a language where :-D was a valid expression. |
| 17:57 | amalloy | int D = 1; int x = false ? 0 :-D; |
| 17:58 | gfrlog | oh; nevermind then. big waste of time this was. |
| 17:58 | bdesham | lol |
| 17:58 | gfrlog | no wait |
| 17:58 | gfrlog | that's just a part of the expression |
| 17:58 | gfrlog | :-D still doesn't stand on its own |
| 17:58 | gfrlog | in clojure it's not just an expression, it's a dang function |
| 17:59 | bdesham | ,(class :-D) |
| 17:59 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.Keyword |
| 17:59 | amalloy | gfrlog: in java nothing stands on its own. you have to wrap anything in at least two layers of {}s before it feels comfortable |
| 17:59 | gfrlog | amalloy: yeah but there are still some things that are expressions...like literals and arrays and such. |
| 18:00 | gfrlog | you couldn't ever say |
| 18:00 | gfrlog | Feeling myFeeling = :-D ; |
| 18:06 | void_ | &:-D |
| 18:06 | sexpbot | ⟹ :-D |
| 18:06 | void_ | &:-( |
| 18:06 | sexpbot | ⟹ :- |
| 18:06 | void_ | &:-'( |
| 18:06 | sexpbot | ⟹ :- |
| 18:06 | bdesham | ,(keyword ":-)") |
| 18:06 | clojurebot | ::-) |
| 18:06 | bdesham | oops |
| 18:06 | bdesham | ,(keyword "-)") |
| 18:06 | clojurebot | :-) |
| 18:06 | void_ | ha you can skip : |
| 18:06 | bdesham | but of course, never do that ;-) |
| 18:07 | void_ | So in Rails, you sometimes put logic into model. Here in Clojure there's no model, because there are no objects. Only a hashmap. So where would you put functions that are supposed to do something with model data? |
| 18:08 | void_ | I'm putting it into my controller namespace. (I have two namespaces, one for view-related code, one for controller.) |
| 18:08 | brehaut | void_: you still have a model layer; its just functions that operate on the model |
| 18:09 | void_ | Ok I see. |
| 18:09 | void_ | So to make it fit nicely with what I have, I would probably create new namespace containing functions to deal with the model. |
| 18:09 | brehaut | void_: IMO the major difference between an OO MVC and a FP MVC is how hard you try to push pure functional code |
| 18:09 | void_ | pure functional = doesn't change any state, right? |
| 18:09 | brehaut | correct |
| 18:11 | void_ | Functional is fun! ;) |
| 18:11 | void_ | &(keyword ":)") |
| 18:11 | brehaut | but sometimes challenging ;) |
| 18:11 | sexpbot | ⟹ ::) |
| 18:11 | void_ | &(keyword ")") |
| 18:11 | sexpbot | ⟹ :) |
| 18:11 | void_ | lol |
| 18:11 | void_ | love this :D |
| 18:15 | amalloy | uhmmmm no offense but you can /msg sexpbot instead of spamming the whole channel with emoticons |
| 18:17 | gfrlog | but then how would I know that I had many a void somewhere very happy? |
| 18:26 | [mattb] | lol alright what am I missing |
| 18:26 | [mattb] | (use clojure.contrib.generic.math-functions) |
| 18:27 | [mattb] | neither use nor require works |
| 18:27 | amalloy | [mattb]: is this inside an (ns) form or bare at the repl? |
| 18:27 | [mattb] | bare |
| 18:27 | bdesham | try (use 'clojure.contrib.generic.math-functions) |
| 18:27 | amalloy | 'clojure.... |
| 18:27 | amalloy | that is, quote it |
| 18:27 | bdesham | if you're at the repl |
| 18:28 | [mattb] | aha |
| 18:28 | [mattb] | filenotfoundexception |
| 18:28 | [mattb] | closer... |
| 18:28 | amalloy | you're using lein or cake, i hope? |
| 18:29 | [mattb] | erm... |
| 18:29 | void_ | amalloy: sorry didn't mean to spam |
| 18:30 | amalloy | [mattb]: if that question is confusing, you're probably not using one of them |
| 18:30 | [mattb] | haha yeah I'm reading now |
| 18:30 | amalloy | srsly use one. doing all the classpath stuff from the command line is so painful |
| 18:30 | amalloy | $google raynes get started clojure |
| 18:30 | sexpbot | First out of 619 results is: An indirect guide to getting started with Clojure » Bathroom ... |
| 18:30 | sexpbot | http://blog.raynes.me/%3Fp%3D48 |
| 18:30 | amalloy | god damn |
| 18:30 | amalloy | blog.raynes.me?p=48 |
| 18:31 | Raynes | amalloy: Hah hah, haw. |
| 18:31 | [mattb] | lol thanks |
| 18:31 | amalloy | Raynes: plz find and fix the bug that makes sexpbot print that url wrong |
| 18:32 | amalloy | or eventually i'll remember to stop telling people to read it |
| 18:32 | Raynes | amalloy: Hehe. |
| 18:32 | Scriptor | damnit, emacs isn't smart enough yet to recognize .me urls |
| 18:33 | brehaut | quick! mass exodus to vim! |
| 18:33 | [mattb] | lol |
| 18:33 | [mattb] | I took the time to learn vim |
| 18:33 | amalloy | Scriptor: i'm sure if i'd prefaced it with http://, it'd work |
| 18:33 | [mattb] | I'll be damned if I'm gonna conjure more time to learn emacs >:( |
| 18:34 | Scriptor | [mattb]: heh, that's what I've been doing |
| 18:35 | [mattb] | I don't have the patience anymore :( |
| 18:35 | amalloy | ESC :more_patience |
| 18:35 | [mattb] | if I was still coding full time I might get around to it, but programming is just a tool for my real work now |
| 18:35 | [mattb] | I don't have the luxury of playing with tools |
| 18:35 | Scriptor | ah, for me I just figured out the basics while using it for irc |
| 18:36 | [mattb] | heh |
| 18:36 | [mattb] | you run an IRC client in your EmacsOS? |
| 18:36 | amalloy | M-x erc |
| 18:36 | amalloy | i forget if it's built-in or i had to install a package |
| 18:37 | technomancy | amalloy: there are _two_ IRC clients built-in to Emacs |
| 18:37 | amalloy | nice |
| 18:38 | amalloy | i'm not sure i could bear to have only one |
| 18:38 | Scriptor | I actually like this more than the other windows irc clients |
| 18:38 | [mattb] | the only thing that sucks about vim and clojure is the lack of slime |
| 18:38 | [mattb] | sadly :( |
| 18:38 | [mattb] | well, not the only thing, but the big thing |
| 18:39 | Scriptor | didn't someone make a slime plugin for vim? |
| 18:39 | seancorfield | anyone around connected with the try-clojure.org project? seems to be running r-e-a-l-l-y slowly and the REPL isn't starting up fully... |
| 18:39 | [mattb] | yeah but it's finicky |
| 18:39 | Scriptor | with nailgun or something like that, at least it comes with vimclojure |
| 18:40 | amalloy | seancorfield: Raynes |
| 18:40 | Raynes | seancorfield: Probably needs a good ol' restart. |
| 18:40 | Somelauw | hmm, is there a clojure idle for people like me who can't handle emacs? (Like drracket for scheme) |
| 18:40 | Raynes | I'll do that in a moment. |
| 18:40 | seancorfield | thanx Raynes - i wanted to point some folks to it who are new to clojure |
| 18:40 | Raynes | seancorfield: Cool. I'll ping you when I have it restarted. |
| 18:41 | ihodes | Somelauw: try Eclipse and ccw http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/ |
| 18:41 | ihodes | Somelauw: i haven't tried it out, but i hear good things |
| 18:42 | Raynes | seancorfield: Should be good to go. Let me know if you have any more problems. |
| 18:42 | Somelauw | Or what I actually want is a clojure debugger? |
| 18:42 | seancorfield | thanx Raynes - looks snappy now! |
| 18:43 | amalloy | Somelauw: ccw may have something, but most of the work on clojure debuggers is going into swank/slime |
| 18:43 | Somelauw | ihodes: I will try it, thanks |
| 18:43 | ihodes | Somelauw: i think ccw can handle all of that. i use emacs for everything, so i'm not sure about much wrt ccw; there are also some debugging libs in clojure--maybe technomancy has one published?--that you can use |
| 18:43 | Somelauw | And swank/slime can only be used with emacs? |
| 18:43 | Raynes | seancorfield: I need to throw together a script to restart it every few days or so. There isn't a whole lot that can be done to make it unnecessary, given the inperfection of sandboxing. |
| 18:44 | amalloy | Somelauw: well, slime is part of emacs. you could write a slime client for something else |
| 18:44 | ihodes | Somelauw: yeah, slime is in emacs. unless someone's ported it to other places. not AFAIK |
| 18:44 | amalloy | swank is the server side of the slime/swank protocol; it really isn't related to emacs except in that slime is the usual client |
| 18:44 | ihodes | Somelauw: what amalloy said. |
| 18:45 | amalloy | but i think writing slime clients is not easy :P |
| 18:45 | ihodes | amalloy: take one look at the code. it's terrifying. |
| 18:45 | brehaut | nothing like reverse engineering a moving target |
| 18:45 | Somelauw | So if I don't learn emacs I am doomed? |
| 18:45 | ihodes | brehaut: by the way, thanks for yoru nice ring ecosystem writeup. best overview i've read of the stack. |
| 18:46 | ihodes | Somelauw: not at all! |
| 18:46 | Raynes | No, you're not doomed. There are plenty of fine IDE plugins. You don't really need a debugger. Not nearly as much as you think you do anyway. |
| 18:46 | ihodes | Somelauw: for e.g. cemerick uses ccw. |
| 18:46 | brehaut | ihodes: thanks :) |
| 18:47 | brehaut | i used ccw for a while; i switched to emacs because i dont like in eclipse all day and it was such an overhead. ccw is really nice though |
| 18:47 | Scriptor | Somelauw: emacs isn't all that hard, to be honest, once you have slime set up it's fairly straightforward |
| 18:47 | Raynes | Isn't CCW working on supporting CDT? |
| 18:47 | Raynes | I can't keep up with those things. |
| 18:47 | amalloy | i still haven't gotten around to trying swank-clj |
| 18:48 | amalloy | but it's true, you don't need a debugger that badly |
| 18:48 | Raynes | I have my very own debugger: (fn [x] (prn x) x) ; :) |
| 18:48 | the-kenny | lein swank && M-x slime-connect RET ftw |
| 18:48 | amalloy | with a functional language, if your code compiles and the data that comes out is roughly the right shape, the function probably works |
| 18:48 | amalloy | Raynes: #(doto % prn) |
| 18:49 | hiredman | the-kenny: latest clojure-mode and swank-clojure shorten that to just M-x clojure-jack-in |
| 18:49 | Raynes | #(or (prn %) %) |
| 18:49 | ihodes | hiredman: WHAT!? |
| 18:49 | the-kenny | hiredman: Oh, good to know. My installation is really outdated |
| 18:49 | Scriptor | hiredman: really? Awesome, I don't have to keep doing M-x shell every tmie |
| 18:49 | Scriptor | *time |
| 18:49 | hiredman | the latest clojure-mode has bits to read elisp out of jars, so you don't even need slime installed |
| 18:49 | ihodes | i just run the swank server in a different tmux window... don't know why i do it that way though. habit. a bad habit. it's a pain sometimes. |
| 18:50 | hiredman | clojure-mode pulls a copy of slime.el out of the swank-clojure jar and loads it |
| 18:53 | Scriptor | btw, has anyone here read purely functional data structures and done the exercises? |
| 18:59 | ihodes | Scriptor: it's on my list... it looks so cool. i'm betting a lot of people who're idling have read oit |
| 19:01 | Scriptor | it looks awesome, but I really need to get around to reading more than the first few pages |
| 19:02 | Scriptor | there're a couple of blog posts about clojure's vector and hashmap implementations that are pretty good though |
| 19:04 | bdesham | hehe... http://plope.com/Members/chrism/oss_sarcasm |
| 19:05 | Scriptor | that page speaks to e |
| 19:08 | cemerick | Somelauw: ccw is a fine environment. Unless there are vim guys waiting to beat me, I'd say that it's probably #2 in terms of usage. |
| 19:09 | cemerick | Which reminds me, I totally fell down today, not posting the new state of clojure survey. |
| 19:09 | cemerick | :-( |
| 19:10 | cemerick | Any last-minute suggestions for questions, etc? http://cemerick.com/2011/06/10/state-of-clojure-2011-what-questions-do-you-have/ |
| 19:10 | cemerick | Raynes: CDT? C Development Toolkit? |
| 19:10 | Raynes | cemerick: Sure. |
| 19:10 | amalloy | cemerick: oh yeah, questions |
| 19:11 | cemerick | Raynes: What part of it would it support? Seems entirely orthogonal to me. |
| 19:11 | amalloy | clojure debugging toolkit |
| 19:11 | Raynes | cemerick: Clojure Debugging Toolkit, or whatever it's called. |
| 19:11 | amalloy | don't let Raynes's vague "sure" confuse you |
| 19:11 | Raynes | I think you might need another cup of coffee, Chassy. |
| 19:11 | cemerick | ah-ha |
| 19:11 | cemerick | I've never used CDT, so I didn't flash on it. |
| 19:11 | amalloy | cemerick: one i thought of: "when you evangelize clojure to others, what excites them? what worries them" |
| 19:12 | cemerick | Yes, CDT integration is in the TODO list. Big job. |
| 19:12 | bdesham | cemerick: "did you find clojure to be a newbie-friendly language/community? if not, what could we improve?" |
| 19:12 | cemerick | I probably have my hands full with more REPL and editing enhancements. |
| 19:12 | bdesham | something along those lines |
| 19:13 | cemerick | Debuggers are great, but there's still a ton of tasty lower-hanging fruit to nab. |
| 19:13 | Raynes | cemerick: Yay! Survey! Now I'm never going to get any work done. |
| 19:13 | amalloy | Raynes: you only have to fill it out once |
| 19:13 | Scriptor | cemerick: this might go under current usage, but somethign about how easy it is to find libraries |
| 19:13 | hiredman | yegge says he is writing a debugger |
| 19:13 | Scriptor | or start a new project |
| 19:13 | Raynes | amalloy: Yes, but I'll do it slowly. |
| 19:14 | cemerick | hiredman: didn't he say that right after saying that he's not aware of what's out there already? |
| 19:14 | amalloy | haha |
| 19:14 | hiredman | cemerick: seems likely |
| 19:15 | cemerick | amalloy: that's a good one |
| 19:15 | brehaut | man, rhino on rails. lookin forward to that |
| 19:15 | Raynes | Yegge says lots of things. Lots of confusing indecisive things, sometimes. :< |
| 19:15 | cemerick | bdesham: I think that's probably covered by the general "what can we do to improve things over the next year" write in. :-) |
| 19:15 | amalloy | cemerick: i thought of it right after i read your request for questions, but forgot to ever send it to you. see, asking in #clojure is about the only way to get my input :P |
| 19:15 | cemerick | Raynes: easier to claim you were right later on! :-P |
| 19:16 | Raynes | cemerick: So, you're throwing that survey up tonight? Think you could ping me when it's a-go? Heaven forbid I check my feed reader. |
| 19:16 | cemerick | amalloy: Ah, home sweet home :-D |
| 19:16 | technomancy | cemerick: "how likely are you to use Clojure from the command-line?" maybe? |
| 19:16 | cemerick | Raynes: tomorrow morning, I think. |
| 19:17 | technomancy | or rather, would you want to if the situation were to improve? |
| 19:17 | Raynes | Ah, cool. Even better. I'll look for it then. |
| 19:17 | cemerick | technomancy: That's a tricky one to word so that the responses won't be biased. :-) |
| 19:17 | Scriptor | cemerick: another one, "is Clojure your first choice for a new project, if not, why?" |
| 19:18 | cemerick | "Would you like a hoverboard, if it existed?" YES!!!! |
| 19:18 | technomancy | probably true |
| 19:18 | Raynes | cemerick: Of course. |
| 19:18 | bdesham | cemerick: ok, fair enough :) |
| 19:19 | cemerick | Scriptor: Nice, I'll add a variant of that, try to get a sense of Clojure's place in people's programming language choice hierarchy. |
| 19:19 | kephale | cemerick: not if i can have a flying scooter |
| 19:19 | bdesham | I'm using C++ for a project right now... oh god, how I wish I could use clojure |
| 19:19 | technomancy | "Have you noticed Clojure's command-line support is not that great? (A) Yeah, what's up with that? (B) What?" |
| 19:20 | Scriptor | anyone have any inspiration for a clojure project idea? Trying to find something solid to learn with |
| 19:21 | cemerick | technomancy: ha :-) |
| 19:21 | tremolo | Scriptor: how about a twitter client |
| 19:21 | cemerick | technomancy: Best make sure you have a good answer if 95% choose (a). ;-) |
| 19:21 | tremolo | twitter clients are the hello world du jour |
| 19:22 | tremolo | next up: key/value stores |
| 19:22 | bdesham | tremolo: haha |
| 19:22 | cemerick | technomancy: I think the real deal would be to reimplement java.exe et al. |
| 19:22 | Scriptor | heh, I've had the weirdest hello world projects |
| 19:22 | hiredman | "do you use clojure for distributed(multiple computer) parallel/concurrent work" |
| 19:23 | hiredman | what's a .exe? |
| 19:23 | Scriptor | a java compiler in clojure? |
| 19:23 | brehaut | hiredman: virus vector |
| 19:24 | technomancy | cemerick: not totally crazy: http://hashdot.sourceforge.net/ |
| 19:24 | Scriptor | oh, java, not javac |
| 19:25 | hiredman | Scriptor: a compiler would be much easier |
| 19:25 | cemerick | technomancy: so that's normalizing java's behaviour for scripting — nothing to do with startup times and such, right? |
| 19:26 | Scriptor | hiredman: true, most of the optimizations happen at runtime, iirc |
| 19:26 | technomancy | cemerick: right. I guess it's only half the story. |
| 19:27 | technomancy | (the half that's possible?) |
| 19:27 | technomancy | startup time improvements are probably only feasible via large cash bribes to Oracle execs. |
| 19:28 | technomancy | "Please stop pretending the Client JVM doesn't exist. Sincerely, Twenty Thousand Dollars." |
| 19:29 | hiredman | $20k? |
| 19:29 | clojurebot | $what is love |
| 19:29 | sexpbot | It's AWWWW RIGHT! |
| 19:29 | Somelauw | okay thanks, I think I will try ccw and maybe one day try to setup emacs + swank again. |
| 19:29 | cemerick | Most of the startup time is class init for stuff that you may not be using at all -- the dependency tree among java.lang, java.io, and java.util is *large*. I'll bet you could get some of the benefits of jigsaw and such by shadowing some key classes in a jar added to the boot classpath that would then lazily load the shadowed classes when they're actually needed. |
| 19:30 | cemerick | </speculation> |
| 19:32 | technomancy | hiredman: that's the frequent customer discount |
| 19:33 | cemerick | Somelauw: if you have any troubles, post on the -users ML :-) |
| 19:34 | hiredman | technomancy: part of a payment plan? |
| 19:51 | carllerche | Is there literal syntax for java longs? |
| 19:52 | carllerche | (trying to call a java method that requires a long from clojure) |
| 19:53 | brehaut | carllerche: (long 1) ? |
| 19:54 | carllerche | That's a cast no? I guess it doesn't matter |
| 19:54 | seancorfield | use type hinting? |
| 19:54 | seancorfield | ^long 1 |
| 19:55 | seancorfield | (or use clojure 1.3.0 :) ) |
| 19:55 | carllerche | seancorfield: using ^long gives me an "Unable to resolve classname: long" error |
| 19:55 | carllerche | is clojure 1.3.0 out? |
| 19:56 | seancorfield | alpha 8 is available |
| 19:56 | hiredman | seancorfield: seriously? ^long 1? are you for real? |
| 19:57 | seancorfield | i didn't actually try it *feeble smile* |
| 19:58 | seancorfield | i was just thinking about type hints in calls to java methods |
| 19:58 | hiredman | seancorfield: if you needed to try then you need to spend more time reading docs and reading code |
| 19:58 | brehaut | carllerche: the literal syntax for a long is to use a literal int that is long than a java int but not so long that it has to be a bigint |
| 19:58 | hiredman | it is obvious it cannot work if you actually understand what ^ does |
| 19:59 | seancorfield | no need to be snippy |
| 19:59 | ihodes | hiredman: whoa whoa, be calm |
| 19:59 | ihodes | we're all friends here |
| 20:01 | Scriptor | that's also on my reading list |
| 20:01 | brehaut | Scriptor: the first 100 pages of the first book are a bit tedious, it gets great after that |
| 20:02 | ihodes | i've just started watching the TV show...i never do that before a book, but hey. it's great so far. currently reading the sequel to The Name of the Wind. Which is excellent. |
| 20:03 | __name__ | Is that worth 19 € for all 4 books? |
| 20:04 | __name__ | ‘American Tolkien’ got me interested. |
| 20:05 | ihodes | __name__: if the TV show is any indication (and i hear the books are better), then hell yes. |
| 20:05 | Scriptor | ihodes: Wise Man's Fears? Great book |
| 20:05 | ihodes | Scriptor: so far, it's absolutely fantastic. |
| 20:05 | seancorfield | hiredman: i know in Clojure 1.3 you don't need to hint vars initialized to primitives (and in fact can't) but i only use 1.3 so i actually have to fire up a specific repl to go see how it used to behave... and that's why i suggested carllerche use 1.3 :) |
| 20:06 | hiredman | ^long 1 cannot work in any version of clojure |
| 20:06 | seancorfield | now that i think about that, it's clearly the case - and i understand why... |
| 20:07 | hiredman | ^long 1 tells the reader to use {:tag long} as metadata on the following form |
| 20:07 | hiredman | numbers do not support metadata |
| 20:07 | seancorfield | i did not expect such an attack for a mistaken suggestion, however |
| 20:07 | hiredman | attack? |
| 20:07 | seancorfield | clearly others felt you were harsh as well |
| 20:07 | hiredman | others can feel what they like |
| 20:09 | ihodes | hiredman: seancorfield: let's just all talk abotu fantasy books for a spell. or just how awesome Enlive is? |
| 20:10 | seancorfield | squirrel! :) |
| 20:10 | __name__ | ihodes: Thanks. |
| 20:12 | ihodes | seancorfield: hell yes. |
| 20:13 | hiredman | the other day I used the verb "trached" in front of a group of bright people, and just got blank looks, so I said "tracheotomy" and *still* got blank looks, same sense of incredulity when I see someone recomend ^long 1 |
| 20:14 | seancorfield | carllerche: do you feel comfortable trying an alpha build of clojure? i know a lot of folks don't, but there are some nice advances over 1.2 |
| 20:14 | seancorfield | https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.txt changes from 1.2 to 1.3 alpha 8 |
| 20:14 | carllerche | possibly, I ahven't looked at 1.3 yet at all |
| 20:14 | carllerche | I'll look in a sec |
| 20:15 | carllerche | thanks for the tips |
| 20:15 | seancorfield | hiredman: maybe we can buy each other a beer at the conj and be less incredulous :) |
| 20:16 | hiredman | possibly |
| 20:16 | Scriptor | even better, if you guys are near nyc there's a potential meetup on wednesday |
| 20:19 | hiredman | we're not, and I don't drink, so either way we'll just have to work something out |
| 20:29 | dnolen | make your own Watson in Clojure, core.logic gets Definite Clause Grammar support https://gist.github.com/1024087 |
| 20:31 | grantm | hey guys, when i make a little gui app and run it in a repl, killing the app kills the repl too, which is annoying. Is there any way to get around that? |
| 20:32 | grantm | in fact, is anyone familiar with running guis in the repl in general? i would love to be able to tweak values during runtime, but i'm not sure how to write my code that way (i have an "infinite loop") |
| 20:33 | brehaut | grantm: generally if you have some piece of code that runs off by itselfs and you want to update the functions on the fly, you can use var quoteing |
| 20:33 | brehaut | grantm: and then just redef the var |
| 20:34 | hiredman | grantm: there are some swing constants you set on the jframe which control what happens when you close the window |
| 20:34 | grantm | the problem with just typing stuff in is that i can't (there's no repl prompt) |
| 20:34 | brehaut | grantm: eg (defn handler [r] {:body "hello, world", :status 200}) (run-jetty #'handler) |
| 20:34 | hiredman | you run your loop in another thread |
| 20:34 | grantm | ahh, i see! |
| 20:35 | brehaut | grantm: (future some-expression) will run it on a background thread |
| 20:46 | dnolen | sum total code for DCG syntax support in core.logic ... 60 lines. |
| 20:47 | clojurebot | chouser: Some high-tech profiling with Activity monitor and println shows that I'm doing 100% of one core and not so much IO, though the number of files being read is huge(I estimate 5 per second). |
| 20:48 | dnolen | with DCG + tabling == packrat parser. |
| 20:51 | brehaut | dnolen: that looks really interesting |
| 20:52 | gfrlog | brehaut: is (future) a valid replacement for (.start (Thread. ...)) in all cases, or is there a pool that would get exausted? |
| 20:52 | brehaut | gfrlog: im not the right person to ask sorry, but i dont _think_ they use threadpools up? |
| 20:52 | amalloy | i think futures use the agent threadpool |
| 20:53 | brehaut | gfrlog: looking at the source to future-call (used internally by future) it uses clojure.lang.Agent/soloExecutur |
| 20:53 | dnolen | brehaut: yeah would be fun to port this http://web.student.tuwien.ac.at/~e0225855/lisprolog/lisprolog.html |
| 20:53 | brehaut | and the java.util.concurrent.Future |
| 20:54 | brehaut | dnolen: hah awesome |
| 20:55 | dnolen | with core.logic near SWI perf, core.logic should have good perf for many parsing tasks. |
| 20:59 | brehaut | it would be nice to have more expressive parser tools available |
| 21:01 | brehaut | (not to disparage fnparse) |
| 21:05 | dnolen | the other nice bit is that all of the existing Prolog parsing literature applies, http://cs.union.edu/~striegnk/courses/nlp-with-prolog/html/index.html |
| 22:29 | [mattb] | is there a difference between #^Graphics and ^Graphics |
| 22:29 | [mattb] | ? |
| 22:29 | brehaut | #^ is prior to 1.2 |
| 22:29 | brehaut | or maybe 1.1 |
| 22:29 | brehaut | its the old meta notation anyway |
| 22:30 | brehaut | otherwise identical |
| 22:30 | brehaut | (hiredman will probably correct me about now) |
| 22:31 | [mattb] | lol |
| 22:31 | brehaut | im generally wrong when i make blanket statements like 'otherwise identical' :P |
| 22:31 | brehaut | use ^ anyway |
| 22:32 | brehaut | [mattb]: are you looking at (for example) the ants demo? |
| 22:33 | [mattb] | yup |
| 22:33 | [mattb] | so I'm sure you're right |
| 22:38 | amalloy | brehaut: i think there is some devious subtle difference in an edge case somewhere but i don't know what it is |
| 22:40 | brehaut | amalloy: there was bound to be something |
| 22:40 | amalloy | brehaut: though, looking at the source, #^ and ^ are both hooked into MetaReader, so it looks to me like they're the same and i'm misremembering |
| 22:40 | brehaut | hah ok |
| 22:45 | [mattb] | how the hell do you use (ints |
| 22:46 | dnolen | <[mattb]> ? |
| 22:46 | [mattb] | no matter what I give it it complains that it can't be cast |
| 22:47 | [mattb] | even (ints (into-array Integer for shits and giggles |
| 22:48 | dnolen | <[mattb]> a complex expression please. |
| 22:50 | dnolen | <[mattb]> sorry I meant complete. |
| 22:50 | [mattb] | I just want an int[] initialized from some sequence |
| 22:50 | dnolen | ,(make-array Integer/TYPE 10) |
| 22:50 | clojurebot | #<int[] [I@462718> |
| 22:50 | jcromartie | int-array |
| 22:50 | dnolen | ,(int-array [1 2 3]) |
| 22:50 | clojurebot | #<int[] [I@18e546> |
| 22:50 | [mattb] | aha.. |
| 22:50 | [mattb] | could have sworn I tried int-array |
| 22:50 | jcromartie | ,((juxt type seq ) (int-array [1 2 3 4 5])) |
| 22:50 | clojurebot | [[I (1 2 3 4 5)] |
| 22:50 | [mattb] | dammit, thanks |
| 22:52 | [mattb] | woot, works! thanks |
| 23:18 | lonstein | I'm trying to convert an example to clojure that involves Java object literal syntax... new Foo( Bar.class ) |
| 23:18 | lonstein | but not seeing an obvious way to do that. Is there an idiom other than going to the classloader? |
| 23:24 | OneWhoFrogs | Hi all. This code (https://gist.github.com/1024248) gives me the error "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Can't resolve: document". What's the best way to solve this? |
| 23:24 | brehaut | lonstein: what are you trying to accomplish with the object literal? |
| 23:26 | lonstein | brehaut: it's supplied to a constructor |
| 23:27 | brehaut | lonstein: _why_ though. without knowing anything about your program other than you have something in java you want the clojure equivalent we cannot provide you a reasonable suggestion |
| 23:28 | seancorfield | hiredman: so i'll buy you a non-alcoholic beverage of your choice at the conj then... |
| 23:29 | lonstein | brehaut: ok, specifically, I'm messing with the javax.sounds.sampled classes, playing sounds. The DataLine.Info constructor expects an actual class and the audio format |
| 23:31 | lonstein | in Java that would be along the lines of info = new DataLine.Info( Clip.class, stream.getFormat() ) |
| 23:34 | lonstein | is there an equivalent idiom in clojure for the .class syntax or does one do something along the lines of (. (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader) loadClass "classname") to get it? |
| 23:35 | brehaut | i *think* that just referencing the class works |
| 23:36 | lonstein | hrm. |
| 23:37 | brehaut | i dont know how you would reference or import a nested class though |
| 23:37 | brehaut | ,(type String) |
| 23:37 | clojurebot | java.lang.Class |
| 23:39 | lonstein | tried it at the repl, hah, it works. that was simple. I assumed it couldn't work |
| 23:40 | lonstein | thanks |
| 23:45 | brehaut | no problem |
| 23:45 | brehaut | sorry i was slow getting an answer |
| 23:53 | lonstein | brehaut: no, it's ok. I should have framed the question fully. I'm a bit tired |
| 23:54 | lonstein | thanks |
| 23:55 | brehaut | no problem; it does always pay to provide the details of what and why. |