#clojure – 2011-05-09

2011-05-09

00:01	zrilak	6am, time to hit the proverbial sack... big thumbs up to all you wonderful folks
00:01	tomoj	huh, I hadn't heard of that one
00:01	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
00:02	tomoj	"This in-depth look also shows Ruby and Python developers that Closure is just as expressive and sophisticated with one added advantage"
00:02	tomoj	BAH
00:03	brehaut	the typo?
00:03	tomoj	didn't even notice that, but, damn, yeah
00:03	tomoj	I BAH at "just as"
00:03	amalloy	also "one" added advantage
00:03	amalloy	what advantage is that? the advantage of "having lots of advantages"?
00:04	tomoj	"all the resources of the JVM"
00:04	tomoj	that ugly (though often quite useful) thing strapped to our backs
00:04	TheMoonMaster	lol
00:05	tomoj	bad analogy, it's the foundation I suppose
03:08	markoman	Hi guys. I have this kind of situation: (do 1 (for [r (range 2 4)] r)) -> (2 3) but I need result to be (1 2 3)
03:09	markoman	is there some way to add first clause on do to the beginning of the sequence?
03:10	markoman	again this is simplified example with numbers. actually numbers are vectors
03:12	markoman	maybe this being more real example: (do [1] (for [r (range 2 4)] [r])) which should return ([1] [2] [3])
03:14	_mst	markoman: I think you want (lazy-seq (cons [1] (for [r (range 2 4)] [r])))
03:15	raek	markoman: as _mst pointed out, you can use 'cons' to add something to the beginning of a sequence
03:16	raek	you probably don't want to use (do x y z) here, since what it does is to evaluate x y z (in that order) and then throw away x and y and return z
03:19	markoman	ok, i was trying to use merge instead of do at some point cause i figured do gives only the last evaluation
03:20	raek	you can use concat if you want to glue together the results of multiple sequence expressions
03:20	markoman	(cons [1] (for [r (range 2 4)] [r])) is not enough here? why need for lazy-seq?
03:20	raek	,(cons (range 2 4))
03:20	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$cons
03:20	raek	,(cons 1 (range 2 4))
03:20	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
03:21	raek	,(concat [1] (range 2 4))
03:21	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
03:22	raek	markoman: lazy-seq is not needed here, but is good to use if you are going to generate a longer sequence (for example, 'for' uses it internally to be able to process infinite sequences)
03:26	markoman	thanks, got it working
04:17	tufflax	,`(abc `(def))
04:17	clojurebot	DENIED
04:17	tufflax	&`(abc `(def))
04:17	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
04:17	tufflax	&`(abc `(de))
04:17	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.core/abc (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/de)))))
04:18	tufflax	what's with the seq, concat and list?
06:56	SLLCLL	sup
06:57	SLLCLL	why does this http://pastebin.com/Biyf0Tfi produce a stack overflow when run with (sieve (range 2 1000000))
07:00	SLLCLL	I thought lazy-seq was supposed to prevent that
07:24	SLLCLL	why does this http://pastebin.com/Biyf0Tfi produce a stack overflow when run with (sieve (range 2 1000000))
07:32	raek	SLLCLL: it happens because you end up building up a big nested (remove ...) expression
07:32	SLLCLL	hm....
07:33	raek	in order to take the first element of one remove, it needs to take the first element of the next remove, and so on
07:33	SLLCLL	ah....
07:33	raek	when a lazy-seq is forced, it creates a stack frame
07:33	SLLCLL	well how should I do it
07:34	raek	SLLCLL: a workaround is to put doall around the remove call
07:34	SLLCLL	ok
07:34	raek	then you will actually filter out one number each iteration
07:35	raek	*all numbers divisible by next-prime
07:36	SLLCLL	seems to work slow :)
07:36	raek	the larger input sequence you have, the more filtering needs to be done at each step...
07:39	SLLCLL	unfortunately time macro stops working
07:40	raek	SLLCLL: since the resuling seq is lazy, you need to wrap the expression in (doall ) to time the whole thing
07:41	raek	SLLCLL: also, this problem seems to be a common one :) http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2992123/clojure-avoiding-stack-overflow-in-sieve-of-erathosthene
07:41	SLLCLL	:)
07:41	raek	and http://clj-me.cgrand.net/2009/07/30/everybody-loves-the-sieve-of-eratosthenes/
07:41	SLLCLL	is there a difference between mod and rem fns
07:42	clojurebot	clojure-mode is an Emacs mode for Clojure, found at git://github.com/jochu/clojure-mode.git
07:43	raek	SLLCLL: yes, they behave differently for negative numbers
07:44	SLLCLL	since I throw an error for negative numbers, which is faster for positive cases
07:47	neotyk	Hi *
07:48	SLLCLL	there's something wrong with this sieve
07:48	neotyk	do you guys get slow performance out of maven-clojure-plugin?
07:49	SLLCLL	if I take 100 from sieve of 1million it takes 6 seconds.... if I try to take all then it take 10 min (and still not finished)
07:49	SLLCLL	that's illogical, after doing first 100 primes the remaining sequence should be pretty short with so many numbers eliminated
08:12	neotyk`	anyone knows status of https://github.com/stuartsierra/new-clojure-maven-plugin ? is it usable, ready to bu used?
08:12	neotyk`	s/bu/be/
08:20	SLLCLL	since that sieve operated slowly as hell I created a new one
08:20	SLLCLL	http://pastebin.com/PzsneVjf
08:20	SLLCLL	I use no recursion yet it has stack overflow
08:21	SLLCLL	oh wait
08:21	SLLCLL	it was same thing
08:21	SLLCLL	had to put doall in front of remove....
08:26	neotyk`	to answer my own question, new-clojure-maven-plugin is not able to test yet
08:29	cemerick	neotyk`: I think it'll be a while before it catches up.
08:34	neotyk`	cemerick: I found out that problem was not c-m-p but rather my code :-/
08:34	cemerick	neotyk`: my condolences :-)
08:34	cemerick	c-m-p is pretty tight
08:35	cemerick	About the only thing it's missing at this point is nREPL support, but that's minor.
08:49	SLLCLL	man
08:49	SLLCLL	why is this so slow
08:51	SLLCLL	http://pastebin.com/7PRQ9912 take 1500 seconds to do (time (do (sieve (range 2 1000000)) nil))
08:51	SLLCLL	ffs why
08:58	chouser	O(n^2), allocates memory for a seq and an Integer object for each number examined, etc.
08:59	SLLCLL	Well of course it's O(n^2), any naive sieve impl is probably
08:59	SLLCLL	but I guess this could be about 100 times faster in java
08:59	SLLCLL	just creating a boolean array and crossing out numbers
09:00	SLLCLL	which is same basic algorithm
09:00	SLLCLL	except i'm using filter here
09:01	chouser	SLLCLL: well, you could try using an array and crossing out numbers in Clojure too
09:01	chouser	I think you'd find it to be significantly faster
09:02	SLLCLL	with the absence of c style for loops that kind of code usually gets excessively ugly
09:02	SLLCLL	kind loses the point of using clojure in the first place
09:03	chouser	crossing out numbers from a fixed-sized array means that to "filter" 7, for example, only every seventh item in the array is touched at all
09:03	SLLCLL	i see your point
09:03	chouser	using filter like this means that to filter out 7, every single item in the seq is mod'ed
09:03	SLLCLL	moded?
09:04	chouser	and of course the difference between the two styles gets more and more dramatic the higher you go
09:04	SLLCLL	I thought it just said (rest seq) if predicate pans out
09:04	chouser	elim-multiples looks at every element of coll
09:05	SLLCLL	gotcha.... I shouldn't use clojure for tight algorithms
09:05	chouser	heh, well, that's not quite what I said
09:05	SLLCLL	I guess I could code it in java and call it from clojure
09:05	chouser	you could. or you could do in clojure what you would do in java.
09:06	chouser	for(i = 0; i < 10; ++i) {...} / (loop [i 0] (when (< i 10) ... (recur (inc i)))
09:07	chouser	I think I might agree with "don't use seqs for tight number-processing algorithms"
09:08	SLLCLL	but practically everything in clojure results in seqs
09:08	SLLCLL	(or vectors which seem just as slow)
09:10	joly	practically everything in Java results in objects, but I'd use primitives for these calculations, loop indices, etc
09:10	joly	use what fits best
09:10	chouser	Clojure has pretty good support for dealing with Java arrays, even arrays of primitives which would be a good choice for a sieve of Erotosthenes
09:16	TimMc	chouser: Is that the sexy version of the sieve of Eratosthenes?
09:18	chouser	heh
09:18	SLLCLL	this version
09:18	SLLCLL	http://pastebin.com/a2xYvEw8
09:18	SLLCLL	isn't actually a sieve
09:18	SLLCLL	calculates each number separately
09:19	SLLCLL	50000 times faster than that sieve
09:19	chouser	the previous version wasn't actually a sieve of Eratosthenes either.
09:19	SLLCLL	go figure
09:19	oelewapperke	that's not a sieve
09:19	oelewapperke	oh right :-p
09:19	oelewapperke	that looks like a very, very slow way of calculating primes
09:20	gfrlog	I just constructed a lazy, iterative, efficient sieve
09:20	SLLCLL	looks slow
09:21	SLLCLL	calculated primes in first million in 0.034 msec
09:21	gfrlog	https://gist.github.com/962508
09:23	SLLCLL	I don't really get these map implementations :P
09:23	gfrlog	mine?
09:23	SLLCLL	or cgrands :)
09:23	SLLCLL	both confuse me
09:24	gfrlog	I cannot find cgrand in the irc history :(
09:29	oelewapperke	SLLCLL: that function restarts it's prime list from scratch on every iteration
09:29	oelewapperke	SLLCLL: bit of a stretch to call that efficient imho
09:30	SLLCLL	it is
09:30	SLLCLL	but like I said
09:30	SLLCLL	50000 times faster than sieve I build that basically uses filter to remove multiples
09:30	SLLCLL	from a sequence of all examined numbers
09:30	gfrlog	addition is always much faster than division
09:31	SLLCLL	what does that mean?
09:31	gfrlog	sieve uses only addition. trial division uses lots of division
09:32	gfrlog	at the processor level, addition is some 50 times faster typically, I think
09:32	SLLCLL	my sieve used modulus
09:32	SLLCLL	:P
09:32	SLLCLL	my bad :P
09:32	gfrlog	modulus is division
09:32	SLLCLL	well it should still have many many times fewer divisions
09:32	gfrlog	I suppose I can't comment further without seeing either of them
09:36	oelewapperke	SLLCLL: presumably that's because clojure is copying the array around like crazy
09:36	oelewapperke	I'm not actually sure how to write an efficient sieve in clojure
09:37	SLLCLL	write it in java then call from clojure :P
09:38	gfrlog	oelewapperke: https://gist.github.com/962508 ?
09:39	cemerick	SLLCLL: first result on Google for "clojure sieve of eratosthenes" FWIW http://clj-me.cgrand.net/2009/07/30/everybody-loves-the-sieve-of-eratosthenes/
09:40	dnolen	SLLCLL: I don't see why you can't just implement the Java algorithm in Clojure, esp if you're willing to try 1.3.0 alphas or master branch. The only perf difference you should see will be around the fact that Clojure only supports 64 bit arithmetic.
09:40	dnolen	64 bit primitive arithmetic I mean.
09:40	SLLCLL	I know cemerick but I just can't understand his version
09:41	cemerick	SLLCLL: Fair enough, but I'm not sure if that warrants punting to Java. +1 to dnolen above, as well.
09:42	SLLCLL	tbh I'm just not good enough
09:42	cemerick	Where's your fighting spirit man? :-P
09:43	SLLCLL	I stumble around a fair bit when trying to use unchecked ops
09:43	SLLCLL	when I try to use them I don't gain performance generally (due to my lack of knowledge)
09:44	gfrlog	it looks like cgrand's version will hold the entire set of primes in memory?
09:44	SLLCLL	but my stupid version that checks every number just outdid version of someone I know
09:44	SLLCLL	so I'm happy with that
09:45	cemerick	SLLCLL: A saying of mine: "Clojure demands that you raise your game, and pays you back for doing so."
09:46	SLLCLL	funny thing... this guy I beat has a lot of experience in web development, has done several projects, has some startups and I'm just a junior developer at some random company
09:47	cemerick	gfrlog: yes
09:47	gfrlog	okay
09:47	ejackson	dnolen: is your native-deps plugin for leiningen still the way to go for native dependencies ?
09:48	cemerick	gfrlog: probably not a problem unless you had some serious objectives :-)
09:48	dnolen	ejackson: probably not for long, technomancy is folding into lein it sounds like.
09:48	dnolen	ejackson: but for now yes.
09:48	gfrlog	cemerick: well I wouldn't be putting that into production... :)
09:48	technomancy	dnolen: actually it's already in =)
09:48	technomancy	if you're running lein from git
09:48	dnolen	technomancy: sweet!
09:48	ejackson	technomancy: I'll do that then :)
09:49	gfrlog	cemerick: it would be embarrassed next to my production version of fib
09:49	ejackson	dnolen, technomancy: thanks.
09:52	gfrlog	cemerick: but isn't performance tho whole point of the discussion?
09:54	technomancy	ejackson: it doesn't support transitive native deps yet, but I'm hoping to have that in before the release
09:54	ejackson	technomancy: I think my deps are all direct, hope so :)
09:55	technomancy	yeah, it's an edge case for sure.
09:57	cemerick	gfrlog: retaining primes doesn't impact perf; it's not good if you plan on going prime-hunting in a serious way, but it's irrelevant given the limits we've been holding to (i.e. < 1e6 or whatever).
09:58	gfrlog	ah; was not aware of limits
09:58	cemerick	gfrlog: small primes seemed to be what SLLCLL was aiming for
09:59	gfrlog	gatcha
09:59	cemerick	FWIW, I wasn't saying cgrand's impl was the best possible — just that it was easily available and pedagogically useful
09:59	gfrlog	s/gatcha/gotcha
09:59	sexpbot	<gfrlog> gotcha
09:59	gfrlog	right
09:59	SLLCLL	hm
09:59	SLLCLL	can I use aset in combination with map
09:59	cemerick	gfrlog: If you're confident in your impl, you should blog it and see how it fares in the wild. :-)
10:00	gfrlog	okay
10:00	gfrlog	cemerick: http://gfredericks.com/gfrlog/posts/90 :)
10:01	dnolen	SLLCLL: ? use aset on a map?
10:01	cemerick	gfrlog: ah, you're prepared! :-)
10:01	gfrlog	for once
10:01	cemerick	gfrlog: a tgz?!?
10:01	cemerick	:-O
10:02	gfrlog	yes I'm so sorry
10:02	cemerick	Get thee a github repo.
10:02	gfrlog	okay one sec
10:03	cemerick	gfrlog: how fast is your impl (up to 1e6, say)
10:03	gfrlog	is that the first million primes or all primes below a million?
10:03	cemerick	below a million, sorry
10:04	gfrlog	cemerick: https://github.com/fredericksgary/lazy-prime-sieve
10:05	SLLCLL	no... use map macro with aset
10:05	gfrlog	cemerick: 1500 msec
10:06	cemerick	gfrlog: thanks; so, I'm getting 2.4s with yours vs. 1.4s with cgrand's. #slowmacbookpro
10:06	gfrlog	yeah, I would think mine would get the edge assymtotically
10:06	cemerick	gotcha
10:06	gfrlog	s/assymtotically/correct-spelling
10:06	sexpbot	<gfrlog> yeah, I would think mine would get the edge correct-spelling
10:06	cemerick	ha
10:07	dnolen	SLLCLL: do you mean the map fn? if so, if you're going for perf I would not use map, dotimes if you want some equivalent to a Java for loop.
10:07	gfrlog	cemerick: since it only holds in memory the primes up to the square root of whatever you're doing
10:07	cemerick	right; functionally constant space
10:08	gfrlog	yeah, until you get up into the septillions and such
10:08	SLLCLL	yeah seems that anything but extremely ugly implementations using just loop recurs is slow as hell
10:08	cemerick	gfrlog: you should update the post with a link to your github repo
10:09	oelewapperke	gfrlog: that code is still horribly slow here
10:09	gfrlog	oelewapperke: why can I not tab-complete your name?
10:10	oelewapperke	gravity: no clue ...
10:10	TimMc	gfrlog: worksforme
10:10	gfrlog	TimMc: and everybody else's name works for me
10:11	jarpiain	SLLCLL: there's a few more versions at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/c26922a0e3e99f69/
10:11	gfrlog	maybe my client has a hard-coded oelewapperke exception
10:11	gfrlog	oelewapperke: what did you test it on?
10:11	gfrlog	by which I mean what range, not what hardware
10:11	TimMc	java.lang.OelewapperkeException
10:12	gfrlog	yeah I've had to catch that one a few times
10:12	oelewapperke	gfrlog: my own machine
10:12	oelewapperke	no offence but 3s for primes < 1000000 is horribly, horribly slow
10:12	gfrlog	oelewapperke: you did primes up to a million?
10:12	dnolen	SLLCLL: heh, quite subjective. Performance is a practical concern, you should expect practical solutions.
10:13	gfrlog	oelewapperke: like I said early, I was going for asymptotic behavior. So mine will go up to trillions and quadrillions, while the other implementations will run out of memory
10:13	gfrlog	s/early/earlier
10:13	sexpbot	<gfrlog> oelewapperke: like I said earlier, I was going for asymptotic behavior. So mine will go up to trillions and quadrillions, while the other implementations will run out of memory
10:14	gfrlog	different emphasis
10:15	oelewapperke	gravity: otoh it has this problem : http://xkcd.com/761
10:15	oelewapperke	I mean gfrlog
10:15	mat1	Is there a way in clojure to mimic the behavior of ## from c macros?
10:15	gfrlog	oelewapperke: it's okay, I've gotten used to answering to gravity now
10:16	gfrlog	oelewapperke: given that all of this stuff is theoretical in the first place, I'm not sure what your criticism is
10:18	oelewapperke	gfrlog: I was kinda looking for an actual fast sieve implementation in clojure. To see how it's done
10:18	oelewapperke	gfrlog: I'm starting to think there isn't any
10:18	dnolen	oelewapperke: I've been talking about how it can be done for quite a while now.
10:18	SLLCLL	well whatever you do it's still gonna be 10 times slower than java
10:19	dnolen	SLLCLL: doubtful.
10:19	gfrlog	which will be 3 times slower than C
10:19	cemerick	holy hell
10:19	SLLCLL	:)
10:19	SLLCLL	nah java is only 1.4 times slower than C on average
10:19	cemerick	oelewapperke: what's "fast" for you?
10:20	gfrlog	people do not switch to clojure because it is faster than other things
10:20	SLLCLL	that's true
10:20	cemerick	gfrlog: sure it is: I can build X a whole lot faster in Clojure than in Java. ;-)
10:20	SLLCLL	but the reason I switched to java was because it wasn't too bad comapred to C++
10:20	oelewapperke	cemerick: it's about a million operations @ 2.6 ghz on my laptop ... so about 0.3s ?
10:20	gfrlog	cemerick: but...that's not clojure being faster
10:21	SLLCLL	when it was twice as slow it was acceptable
10:21	dnolen	gfrlog: that's not true, I certainly switched to Clojure because it was faster than the other dynamic langs, and the potential to get Java perf w/o all the headaches.
10:21	gfrlog	dnolen: I recant
10:21	SLLCLL	clojure unfortunately ( if you program idiomatically) is 4-200 times slower than java
10:21	gfrlog	some people switch to clojure because it is faster than other things
10:22	cemerick	gfrlog: "faster" is just as semantically dubious as "better"
10:22	gfrlog	cemerick: I object
10:22	fliebel	It'd be funny if languages did reverse-moore, getting half as fast every year.
10:22	SLLCLL	lisp is pretty fast
10:22	SLLCLL	unfortunately it doesn't have java libraries
10:22	gfrlog	fliebel: and simultaneously development time does a reverse-reverse-moore?
10:23	gfrlog	cemerick: okay I updated it
10:24	cemerick	gfrlog: ah, fabulous
10:24	fliebel	gfrlog: I hope so :) Maybe we should just state something like this, and make it self fulfilling.
10:24	SLLCLL	my beef with clojure is that unless I hand optimize it, it's usually like 40 times slower than java
10:24	gfrlog	by 2030 all projects will be completed in under 1 second, and the mental effort involved will require resting for a decade
10:24	dnolen	SLLCLL: I often have large swaths of elegant Clojure code whose performance doesn't really matter, and other swaths of code that I beat into the ground until I see Java perf. Most languages don't afford both kinds of thinking.
10:25	gfrlog	My beef with Java is that even if I go way awkwardly out of my way to program in a functional style, it's still stupider than clojure
10:26	SLLCLL	I have yet to beat anything down to java perf
10:26	dnolen	SLLCLL: well you haven't been programming Clojure long enough to know how. Not surprising.
10:26	SLLCLL	my java code is good without any effort to think in terms of performance
10:27	SLLCLL	I almost never have to refactor java code to gain performance
10:27	cemerick	This Java thing sounds pretty great. I should go check it out sometime.
10:28	SLLCLL	C# is better :P
10:28	dnolen	SLLCLL: but your Java code is not safe the way idiomatic Clojure code is either.
10:28	SLLCLL	that's true I suppose
10:29	klang	oelewapperke: http://fupeg.blogspot.com/2009/11/clojures-primes-shootout.html is the best sieve I've been able to find ..
10:29	SLLCLL	but for instance... a majority of lists I use never leave the method... so majority of the time thread-safety and non-mutability don't present an advantage
10:29	dnolen	SLLCLL: interoperability.
10:30	SLLCLL	most clojure core functions (map, filter, reduce) do lazy sequences which seem to be quite slow
10:30	dnolen	Clojure libraries have a greater ability to be shared w/o multithreading fears.
10:31	dnolen	SLLCLL: lazy sequences aren't slow if you know what they're good for. mutually recursive algorithms being a good example.
10:31	cemerick	SLLCLL: seqs currently imply boxing, and ops over boxed numbers are slower than ops on primitives.
10:32	SLLCLL	so what should I emit? vectors, lists, seqences?
10:32	dnolen	SLLCLL: it easy to encode an aglorithm that would blow the stack in Java in a lazy-sequence, and it's going to be very fast.
10:33	cemerick	SLLCLL: You need to understand them, and use them appropriately. There's no blanket recommendation that can be reasonably made.
10:33	gfrlog	dnolen: I think any such algorithm you would do in java without using an explicit collection
10:33	ejackson	dnolen or technomancy: using the latest checkout and just running lein deps does create the native directory and calling (System/getProperty "java.library.path") yields "...../native/macosx/x86_64" correctly. However, when I try calling a function from the jar utilising the native lib I get a Cannot load JRI native library (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0). Any ideas what's wrong here ?
10:34	SLLCLL	if you have to know when to use them, why are they the default in some of the most used functions?
10:34	SLLCLL	as gfrlog pointed out, in java you just do iteration and you don't blow stack
10:34	dnolen	SLLCLL: if you're not doing primitive stuff why not use them?
10:34	SLLCLL	ok
10:34	dnolen	SLLCLL: except iteration doesn't compose that well.
10:35	SLLCLL	that's true
10:35	SLLCLL	my sieves that compose sequence operations were slow as hell though
10:35	SLLCLL	slowest of them all
10:35	technomancy	ejackson: if you can put together a simple repro case opening an issue would be great.
10:35	technomancy	ejackson: also: do you get the same thing with the native-deps plugin?
10:36	ejackson	technomancy: I'll check with naitve-deps plugin and come back to you.
10:36	gfrlog	SLLCLL: I think the idea is that most of the time slow is fine, and the code-safety/simplicity are a more valuable tradeoff
10:36	gfrlog	5% of the time you can speed it up enough with clojure tricks. the other 5% of the time you don't use clojure.
10:36	ejackson	technomancy: I'm attempting to bring this back to life: https://github.com/jolby/rincanter
10:38	dnolen	ejackson: and you actually have a native lib dir in your project after running native-deps ?
10:38	ejackson	dnolen: yeah, it has the .jnilib there (I checked)
10:39	dnolen	ejackson: hmm.
10:39	ejackson	dnolen - I need to install ant to get your native-deps plugin going, yeah ?
10:40	dnolen	SLLCLL: hmm didn't think so.
10:40	dnolen	oops ejackson I mean.
10:41	ejackson	dnolen: dammit. with the plugin I get java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.apache.tools.ant.util.FileUtils.getFileUtils()Lorg/apache/tools/ant/util/FileUtils; (core.clj:1)
10:42	ejackson	when I try invoke lein deps
10:42	dnolen	ejackson: what version of ant do u have?
10:43	ejackson	dnolen: Apache Ant(TM) version 1.8.2 compiled on February 28 2011
10:43	dnolen	ejackson: huh, same here. did you try with a different native project?
10:44	ejackson	nope, can you point me to one please ?
10:45	dnolen	ejackson: investigating w/ Penumbra
10:45	ejackson	i'll try too
10:47	technomancy	the version of ant installed by your package manager shouldn't ever be on the classpath
10:47	technomancy	ejackson: try the plugin with lein 1.5 rather than the latest git
10:48	ejackson	technomancy: will do.
10:49	gfrlog	is ^:private the same thing as #^{:private true}?
10:49	ejackson	technomancy: same issue with the plugin. lein-stable version is
10:49	ejackson	Leiningen 1.5.0 on Java 1.6.0_24 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
10:49	dnolen	ejackson: Penumbra works w/ native-deps 0.5 just fine.
10:49	dnolen	ejackson: how are you testing rincanter?
10:50	ejackson	git clone .....
10:50	ejackson	lein deps
10:50	ejackson	lein test
10:50	ejackson	(after updating the project.clj to 1.2.0)
10:51	dnolen	huh, is github down for anyone else?
10:51	ejackson	yup, its just vanished on me
10:52	fliebel	nope
10:52	ejackson	actually. now back
10:53	fliebel	sweet, I just redid a piece of clojure written when 1.2 was a snapshot. Everything is so much simpler now.
10:57	ejackson	dnolen: updating that project.clj file to more current stuff: https://gist.github.com/962673
10:57	fliebel	Is there anything sweet outside old contrib for command line arguments?
10:58	chouser	fliebel: maybe something nice in javaland?
10:58	ejackson	then running lein-stable native-deps invokes your plugin, but the native dir is not created
10:58	technomancy	java people have this nasty habit of expecting a single dash before full-word arguments.
11:01	dnolen	ejackson: something else is pulling in ant, that's the problem.
11:01	ejackson	dnolen: aaah, gotcha !
11:01	dnolen	I removed autodoc from the dev-deps, and changed swank-clojure to 1.3.0
11:01	ejackson	dnolen: i dropped both
11:01	dnolen	rm -rf lib, and then lein deps, lein native-deps, which then works.
11:02	technomancy	autodoc is rather confused about what it needs to declare =\
11:02	fliebel	chouser: ah, jargs. What is this syntax about? I mean, the space. Parser.Option debug = something
11:02	ejackson	dnolen: can you lein test for me ?
11:02	dnolen	you need to erase lib, if ant is in there it breaks lein.
11:02	dnolen	ejackson: ah ok, yeah I see the JRI bug now.
11:03	ejackson	dnolen: is your native dir populated ?=
11:04	dnolen	ejackson: yes, but I note that there is not JRI.jar in lib itself, that is suspect.
11:04	SLLCLL	how would I paralelize something in clojure
11:04	ejackson	dnolen: hmmm.....
11:04	SLLCLL	for instance earlier I had a seqence and I checked each number separately for being a prime, how would I check 8 numbers at the same time
11:05	dnolen	ejackson: oops, no I see it.
11:05	ejackson	if I use the git version of leiningen, and lein deps, I do get a JRI.jar
11:05	chouser	fliebel: I don't even know what you're talking about. :-)
11:06	SLLCLL	(defn primes [n] (filter prime? (range 3 (inc n)))) <- how can I paralelize running prime?
11:06	zippy314	I have ref of a has that generates a stack overflow when printed on the repl because it includes an item that points back to the top level ref. How can I override the printing behavior of the repl to get around this?
11:06	SLLCLL	I've tried pmap but it ended up using 2 cores out of 4
11:09	dnolen	ejackson: the rincanter code is a bit ... odd.
11:09	ejackson	dnolen: Do you think there is any charm for me to build JRI from source myself and see if I can make any headway.
11:09	ejackson	dnolen: aaah.
11:10	zippy314	like this:
11:10	zippy314	,(let [z (ref {})] (dosync (alter z assoc :z z)))
11:10	clojurebot	{:z #<Ref@1bc6f41: {:z #<Ref@1bc6f41: {:z #}>}>}
11:11	zippy314	wow. On my repl (emacs slime to swank clojure) that throws a stack-overflow.
11:14	S11001001	zippy314: set print-level?
11:14	dnolen	ejackson: k, (System/loadLibrary "jri")
11:14	dnolen	ejackson: Library not loaded: /Library/Frameworks/R.framework/Versions/2.10/Resources/lib/libR.dylib
11:15	dnolen	it looks like its looking for that.
11:15	ejackson	aaaaah
11:15	ejackson	is your R_HOME set ?
11:15	dnolen	ejackson: no, don't know anything about R really :)
11:15	ejackson	dnolen: ignore me, mine is and I get the same
11:16	dnolen	it's looking for 2.10, I see I have 2.12
11:16	ejackson	dnolen: aaaaaaaaaaaaaah
11:16	zippy314	S11001001: That does the trick! Thanks.
11:16	ejackson	me too
11:16	ejackson	i'd JUST seen that :D
11:18	ejackson	dnolen: and that works.
11:18	dnolen	ejackson: nice.
11:18	ejackson	I'll see if I can find the hardcoded link
11:19	ejackson	dnolen: thanks for you help on this, I really appreciate it
11:19	dnolen	ejackson: np, good to know it's not a native-deps thing.
11:19	ejackson	yes, I apologise for casting that shadow on its good name :)
11:19	dnolen	ha!
11:21	ejackson	now the question is where has the OA hidden the source for jriengine :)
11:28	ogrim	Should libraries be licensed under the Eclipse Common Licence as Clojure is?
11:29	technomancy	ogrim: it isn't legally required or anything, but it's nice.
11:31	ogrim	technomancy: I'm pretty sure I've read it somewhere, but I cannot find any official recommandation :)
11:32	Fossi	it makes using things easier ofc
11:36	raek	ogrim: one thing to watch out for is that GPL:ed code can't be combined with EPL:ed code (the GPL does not allow it). LGPL should be fine though, I think.
11:37	ogrim	thanks a lot! I will probably be using the ECL for my masters project
12:57	seancorfield	mornin'
12:57	dnolen	SLLCLL: seive as fast as Java, https://gist.github.com/962877
12:57	dnolen	and w/ some macro fu, it's not even all that ugly.
12:59	dnolen	SLLCLL: will only work on 1.3.0 of course.
13:00	dnolen	SLLCLL: actually I cheated, it's actually faster than Java because of my identical? check.
13:00	dnolen	if that's removed, same perf as Java w/o long arithmetic.
13:00	dnolen	sorry w/
13:05	amalloy	dnolen: i plan to invent a product, and rather than actually implement it, just tell you it's slower than it would be in java
13:05	amalloy	so don't change anytime soon
13:10	TimMc	dnolen: Even Clojure 1.2, passing around lots of primitives?
13:11	dnolen	TimMc: ?
13:11	fliebel	amalloy: Will your product be in amalloy-utils?
13:11	dnolen	TimMc: my gist would be tedious in 1.2, because of lack of unchecked-math and tedious type hinting.
13:12	TimMc	OK
13:14	amalloy	fliebel: yeah, and i'll start charging $20 per git clone so i can finally make some money on (insert future brilliant product here)
13:33	fliebel	Strange, how I would use a Java lib last updated in 2005, while hesitating to use anything Clojure from last year.
13:44	dysinger	CAKE!
13:44	dnolen	https://gist.github.com/962877, sieve updated with idiomatic use of areduce. I'm not sure how much more idiomatic this little fast snippet of Clojure could be.
13:44	pyr	hi guys, what would you say is the best way to schedule a serialised access to a possibly non thread safe object
13:44	pyr	i use agents for that
13:45	pyr	but i always get bugged by the fact that the agent's value is of no use
13:46	chouser	pyr: that's probably the best as of today. keep your eyes open for news about pods, though.
13:47	pyr	pods ?
13:47	pyr	a clojure 1.3 thing ?
13:49	fliebel	What about classic locking?
13:49	fliebel	chouser: I thought pods where about transients, not about random unsafe mutable data.
13:50	amalloy	pyr: make the agent's value be the unsafe resource itself?
13:50	pyr	yeah, that's what i do :)
13:51	dnolen	fliebel: transients are unsafe mutable data they're not supposed to leak out of the construction site.
13:51	pyr	fliebel: sure
13:51	amalloy	(send agent #(doto % (.write 10)))
13:51	pyr	amalloy: yep
13:51	amalloy	it's a usage of agents recommended by JoC, so it gets my seal of approval
13:53	pyr	good to know
14:18	dnolen	huh, anybody tried to mess w/ InvokeDynamic on OpenJDK 7 OS X before?
14:28	technomancy	dnolen: headius had some links in his tweets, but it may have been a while back
14:28	dnolen	technomancy: funny enough I just came across one of his gists. Yeah looks like all the old InvokeDynamic stuff floating around on the web is not obsolete.
14:28	dnolen	s/not/now
14:28	sexpbot	<dnolen> technomancy: funny enough I just came across one of his gists. Yeah looks like all the old InvokeDynamic stuff floating around on the web is now obsolete.
14:32	scottj	any libraries that take a date and give you one of those short descriptions like "a week ago" or "about 3 months ago"
14:33	scottj	don't see anything for that in clj-time or joda but might have missed something
14:33	fliebel	scottj: I suspect these are to case-specific to have a general implementation, but I'd love to be wrong.
14:34	fliebel	I remember Twitter releasing a lot of their stuff lately, maybe there is something in there>
14:34	technomancy	scottj: isn't that often done client-side these days?
14:35	TimMc	technomancy: To allow caching?
14:35	technomancy	yeah, and I think if you do it client-side you can avoid storing TZ data as part of your account records?
14:35	scottj	technomancy: yeah I've seen js ones http://ejohn.org/blog/javascript-pretty-date/
14:35	amalloy	scottj: you could steal the one sexpbot uses
14:36	amalloy	$seen rhickey
14:36	sexpbot	rhickey was last seen quitting 1 week and 2 days ago.
14:36	fliebel	I hoped you'd find one here: http://twitter.github.com/commons/apidocs/index.html#com.twitter.common.util.DateUtils
14:36	TimMc	technomancy: Well, intervals may be TZ-independent, but the client still has to make sure to use the same TZ as the provided dates.
14:38	dnolen	wow, InvokeDynamic was first mentioned by Gilad Bracha in fall 2005.
14:46	Raynes	scottj: https://github.com/cognitivedissonance/sexpbot/blob/master/src/sexpbot/utilities.clj For sexpbot's implementation. I worked really, really hard on... getting amalloy to write that for me. :>
15:02	fliebel	What is the preferred settings storage format? XML, Clojure, JSON, YAML?
15:05	hiredman	fliebel: support both clj and json together is pretty easy, and json provides nice interop with other tools
15:05	technomancy	depends on who's writing the settings
15:06	fliebel	me
15:06	technomancy	yeah, use clojure then
15:06	fliebel	But I also realized I already have email header style settings in another place, so it's proably going to be that.
15:06	fliebel	code reuse ftw
15:08	hiredman	:(
15:08	technomancy	,((comp clojure.java.io/read-string clojure.java.io/slurp clojure.java.io/resource) "clojure/test.clj")
15:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: clojure.java.io/read-string
15:08	technomancy	oops
15:08	hiredman	use java properties then
15:09	technomancy	,((comp read-string slurp clojure.java.io/resource) "clojure/test.clj") ;; <= re-use
15:09	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :make-reader of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil
15:09	technomancy	wat
15:09	technomancy	wfm
15:10	amalloy	technomancy: jvm permissions. he can't open files
15:11	technomancy	security policy stuff?
15:11	amalloy	yeah
15:11	amalloy	,(.exists (java.io.File. "test"))
15:11	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission test read)
15:13	fliebel	hiredman: The properties thing sound like what I want. Now I just need to find a reader that can read up to an empty line.
15:15	hiredman	no, you need to read the javadocs
15:15	fliebel	:)
15:15	amalloy	java properties, really? sends shivers down my spine. if you want something that doesn't interop well you might as well use native clojure structures, which will be easy to work with
15:15	amalloy	if you want something that interops well, use json. problem solved
15:15	fliebel	amalloy: I want something that goes nicely together with markdown.
15:17	amalloy	what. why would you want that. you want the user-facing and machine-friendly versions of your config file to be the same?
15:17	fliebel	it'll be like "title: blah \n tags: foo, bar \n\n # markdown #"
15:18	technomancy	amalloy: well I used resource in order to get at the file in the jar
15:23	ordnungswidrig	how can I detect how often a stm tx is retried?
15:33	amalloy	technomancy: fwiw i wouldn't expect resource permissions to be any more lax. ssl private certs could be stored in the jar, for example, so if you aren't trusted to read files you probably shouldn't read jars either
15:33	Lemur13	is there some way I could merge sorted sequences
15:34	Lemur13	for instance (1 8 10 34) + (2 4 6 9 10 22) = (1 2 4 6 8 9 10 22 34)
15:34	technomancy	(doc into)
15:34	clojurebot	"([to from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined."
15:35	amalloy	Lemur13: sounds like you want just the merge half of a merge-sort
15:35	Lemur13	yes
15:35	Lemur13	also eliminating doubles
15:35	Lemur13	duplicates
15:35	amalloy	uh, then something that is not a merge-sort at all :P
15:35	Lemur13	:D
15:35	Lemur13	well I can make a fn I guess
15:36	amalloy	Lemur13: you can maintain a sorted-set
15:36	amalloy	if you can avoid doing the work of sorting the second sequence elsewhere, and move that effort to the sorted-set, it should be at least as efficient as sorting then merging
15:37	Lemur13	the sequence is pre-sorted
15:41	fliebel	Okay, Clojure settings it'll be.
15:43	fliebel	Lemur13: Check merge* for the merge part of a merg-sort https://gist.github.com/951553
15:44	Lemur13	btw
15:44	Lemur13	is using peek and pop on sequences ok
15:44	Lemur13	or should I be always using first and rest
15:44	fliebel	&(peek (list 1 2 3))
15:45	sexpbot	⟹ 1
15:45	chouser	peek/pop don't work on seqs, but using them on lists is perfectly ok
15:45	fliebel	First and rest are the way to go for lists.
15:46	fliebel	squares? ( I was kind of surprised to see that pee work)
15:46	fliebel	*peek
15:47	chouser	fliebel: peek/pop use the (probably somewhat misnamed) IPersistentStack interface, which is explicitly supported by lists, queues, and vectors
15:48	fliebel	Oh, right. And PersistentQueues also implement the lis thing, right? I found this in clojureatlast the other day.
15:49	chouser	I believe we have a little chart in "joy" to help you choose
15:49	chouser	,(pop ())
15:49	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't pop empty list
15:49	chouser	,(rest ())
15:49	clojurebot	()
15:49	chouser	etc
15:50	fliebel	Uhm, the book is in my reading queue :)
15:50	chouser	:-)
16:04	arohner	technomancy: are there any clever solutions for lein projects that have both regular dependencies and dev-dependencies?
16:04	markoman_	how can i convert "67" string to long?
16:05	cemerick	,(Long/parseLong "67")
16:05	clojurebot	67
16:05	cemerick	markoman_: ^
16:05	technomancy	arohner: I played with the notion of letting dev-dependencies inject code into the project process. too clever and not obvious though.
16:06	markoman_	thanks :)
16:07	arohner	technomancy: thanks. I'll keep thinking about it. I have a lein plugin (to daemonize a process) that needs to call code in the runtime child. In my case, it might not be too bad to just jam the code in eval-in-project's init section
16:07	technomancy	arohner: you could take it from the commit before I removed it from lein if you feel like taking a walk on the crazy side =)
16:08	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commit/f8831ed80f3982b67d44e048541ca238e3b6c9fe
16:09	arohner	technomancy: interesting. a simpler solution for me would allow a dev-dependency to create an additional normal dependency. or vice-versa
16:09	arohner	if I could do that, a normal lein deps would fix my issues
16:09	technomancy	:both-dependencies? heh.
16:10	technomancy	if it's just clojure code that needs sharing and you know there's not chance of collision, that inject code may be feasible.
16:10	scottj	Are war files/servlets not supposed to start up long-running threads for cron-like jobs (reporting, polling, sending updates)? Adding a future to an init method on a servlet causes tomcat to complain about vars not being freed and tomcat quickly runs out of memory, not sure if separate threads not tied to responding to http requests have to be put in separate app.
16:10	technomancy	I don't want to include it in lein because the chances of collision are too high
16:11	S11001001	scottj: due to unloading/reloading the webapp?
16:13	scottj	S11001001: I think I experience even on the first load.
16:14	mefesto	scottj: is it a permgen error?
16:14	scottj	mefesto: yeah
16:14	mefesto	scottj: on jboss i've had some trouble with that and had to increase the perm size
16:14	mefesto	scottj: clojure creates many classes which eat up perm mem
16:15	scottj	S11001001: do you know what happens to a running future when an app gets reloaded?
16:15	tomoj	lolwtfbbq https://gist.github.com/eb2f4c6b6daaff8c4bb4
16:15	tomoj	relevant bit: https://gist.github.com/f8f1e3c6e06b2f1d0d6a
16:15	scottj	mefesto: so it's fine to have a servlet start up several background threads for various tasks not responding to requests?
16:16	scottj	mefesto: and is init method the place to do it?
16:16	mefesto	scottj: not sure. i believe the springframework uses a job scheduler called quartz which does something like that
16:16	S11001001	scottj: no idea, but it's easy to clean them up manually in a servletcontextlistener that calls shutdown-agents
16:16	mefesto	but i don't really know so i don't want to lead you down the wrong path
16:17	tomoj	oh.. is that one of the things they fixed in 1.2.1, I hope, desperately?
16:19	hiredman	mefesto: evaling code (actually compiling) is the only thing that generates classes, so unless you are doing that, which seems unlikely
16:20	tomoj	yes indeed :D
16:21	mefesto	hiredman: just a guess. expanding the perm size fixed the issue for me
16:22	hiredman	some containers like tomcat have known issues with permgen size
16:23	mefesto	yeah, especially if your app uses hibernate which a lot of java webapps do
16:30	mefesto	scottj: this thread might be of interest: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/b9e64ea3807b6c58/8703ddceb307ec0a?lnk=gst&q=permgen#8703ddceb307ec0a
16:39	mefesto	hiredman: im confused. when does compiling not happen in clojure?
16:40	hiredman	mefesto: it doesn't happen at runtime
16:40	hiredman	it happens at most once per compilation unit, unless the compilation unit does something like call eval
16:40	mefesto	hiredman: isn't it compiled to bytecode at runtime unless explicitly aot'd?
16:40	hiredman	once
16:41	technomancy	yo dawg, &c.
16:41	hiredman	so (def a (fn [a] ...)) that function is compile once, and (a) just runs the compiled function, and (a) runs the compiled function again
16:41	mefesto	hiredman: right, that is what i thought
16:46	micahmartin	technomancy: Any more thoughts on putting recent Leiningen releases on Clojars?
16:47	gfrlog	does ring parse query params, or is that done by jetty?
16:47	technomancy	micahmartin: no, I haven't thought through the implications of turning leiningen into a library
16:47	micahmartin	gfrlog: Jetty does the querystring parsing
16:48	gfrlog	ah hah. kay thanks.
16:48	technomancy	I'm still not sure why you don't leave the parts that need to be in leiningen in the plugin
16:48	micahmartin	technomancy: If there's no harm in it... I could really use a recent release.
16:49	micahmartin	Well, I think they are still in the plugin... but when running my plugin through the shell wrapper, leiningen isn't in the classpath.
16:50	technomancy	can't the shell wrapper just call lein for some tasks?
16:51	micahmartin	Yeah... and pay the price of two JVM boots
16:51	technomancy	not if the shell wrapper just has a list of which tasks go to which tool
16:51	micahmartin	But what's more... I can't test my code that uses leiningen stuff... cuz the existing library is out of date.
16:51	technomancy	that's how it handles rlwrap right now
16:51	technomancy	that's what :eval-in-leiningen is for
16:52	micahmartin	Do you mean I should edit the shell wrapper script?
16:53	micahmartin	I guess I need to research :eval-in-leiningen...
16:53	technomancy	sure, the shell wrapper can dispatch plugin tasks to the plugin and non-plugin tasks to your own tool.
16:54	tufflax	I want to make a game. I've read a few times about developing with the application running, and that it's the lisp way to do things. That sounds good but how do I actually do it? The repls I've used blocks while computing stuff. I mean, do set it up "manually" using two threads or is there some kind of standard?
16:54	tufflax	s/blocks/block
16:54	sexpbot	<tufflax> I want to make a game. I've read a few times about developing with the application running, and that it's the lisp way to do things. That sounds good but how do I actually do it? The repls I've used block while computing stuff. I mean, do set it up "manually" using two threads or is there some kind of standard?
16:58	micahmartin	technomancy: The shell wrapper it generated... is there a simple way to specify use a custom shell script?
16:58	S11001001	tufflax: that's usually the easiest, though it depends on how easy it is for you to start your stuff from the repl
16:58	arohner	technomancy: why is the handler argument to eval-in-project deprecated? is there any other way to modify the Java object before it's run?
16:59	micahmartin	Also... this still doesn't answer the need to unit test my code that uses leiningen.
16:59	tufflax	S11001001 you mean 2 threads?
17:01	S11001001	tufflax: yeah
17:02	S11001001	I mean, you've got a main function, maybe that sits in a UI loop, so instead of (main-) say (future (main-)) at the repl
17:02	S11001001	but if you're trying to test a webapp inside of tomcat proper, for example, then that's something entirely different
17:04	technomancy	micahmartin: yeah, sure; lemme see
17:04	tufflax	S11001001: OK. thank you!
17:05	technomancy	micahmartin: it's :shell-wrapper {:bin "bin/foo"}, which gets called with format, so put %s %s in for the classpath and -main namespace.
17:07	technomancy	arohner: the only use I knew for altering the Java object was to change the classpath. did you have something else in mind?
17:08	arohner	technomancy: yes, I want to call (.setSpawn java true). Let me see if that works, first
17:10	micahmartin	technomancy: cool thanks. What about testing my code? Anyone who's building a plugin has got to be in the same situation.
17:10	micahmartin	... can't unit test code that uses leiningen directly.
17:12	technomancy	micahmartin: testing plugins with :eval-in-leiningen has worked well for me
17:14	technomancy	is that not working?
17:14	micahmartin	I haven't tried it because it I typically don't run tests using lein command
17:15	technomancy	it will also make repls and swank sessions run in the lein process
17:22	lnostdal	hi guys.. is the latest swank-clojure (from git) known to work with the latest slime (also from git)?
17:24	technomancy	lnostdal: known to not work
17:24	lnostdal	ok, thanks
17:28	micahmartin	technomany: Looking at Leiningen source code... I think I see where you're going with :eval-in-leiningen... I'm gonna mull this over during my commute home.
17:35	pjstadig	technoutilitarian!
17:35	lnostdal	downgrading slime at the moment, but perhaps emacs is too new also? .. i'm using 24.0.50.1
17:36	technomancy	lnostdal: that's what I'm on. it's the version of slime that it's picky about; see the swank-clojure readme
17:38	lnostdal	i can't see anything specific about slime version there, i think .. just that it should be newer than the one usually provided by distros
17:38	rcg	technomancy: "... or the technoone" - technospock is always right
17:38	rcg	scnr
17:39	technomancy	rcg: but of course
17:39	technomancy	lnostdal: the version you want is on marmalade-repo.org, or you can look on my github fork of slime if you want to do it by hand.
17:41	lnostdal	technomancy, your repo works .. awesome; thank you ..... :) .. (i like knowing what the hecks going on; so just git and simple non-auto-type tools to begin with)
17:42	technomancy	sure, suit yourself
18:06	arohner	technomancy: (.setSpawn java true) works (on OSX and linux at least). Should I just use handler, or would you like a different patch for eval-in-project?
19:11	_Vi	When I use "(use 'my.namespace :reload-all)" second time (after changing the source) in "lein repl" it fails to output error message if there is error. How to get the error message?
19:24	dnolen	new blog post: Lispers know the value of everything and the cost of nothing, http://dosync.posterous.com/lispers-know-the-value-of-everything-and-the
19:24	KirinDave_	Void style.
19:26	hiredman	it makes me feel like I have a handle on the cost of things, until I look at the macro expansion of the logging macros from contrib logging
19:44	seancorfield	bay area clojure user group tonight - who's going?
19:50	hiredman	I have a test run that will take from now till the heat death of the universe, so not going anywhere in seattle, let a lone in the bay
19:51	Derander	hiredman: you are one hour from me
20:06	carllerche	What do people do when editing java files? Do you jump to an IDE or use emacs? (the java mode seems to be pretty bad)
20:06	hiredman	why would I edit java files?
20:08	carllerche	i still have java I need to use and don't feel like rewriting it in clojure yet
20:32	zrilak	I can't Java in Emacs, seriously. Java requires much more information on screen than what I can get from Emacs, and CEDET etc. don't even come close to what you get in modern, mature IDEs, let alone refactorings. Java is just like that, it wants heavy scaffolding around the code.
20:33	justinlilly	zrilak: if you find an acceptable solution, I'd give you money.
20:33	zrilak	Actually I'm doing pretty fine in IntelliJ IDEA + La Closure -- just a few percent of what Emacs does, but enough for comfortable work
20:33	justinlilly	not sure how much.. but definitely some.
20:34	zrilak	A solution to what exactly? :)
20:35	justinlilly	I want eclipse/intellij for emacs, basically.
20:35	zrilak	eh.
20:35	zrilak	oh hey, how about Emacs for IDEA? That might be doable
20:35	justinlilly	actually eclipse has a reasonable emacs mode
20:35	zrilak	better than IDEA's, in fact
20:36	justinlilly	yep. emacs+ is what its called. 3rd party.
20:36	zrilak	yeah, it even supports marks, IIRC
20:36	zrilak	and kill ring
20:37	justinlilly	yep. Still not the same though. Totally lacks the ability to write a little function to do some repetitive task.
20:38	zrilak	the solution is easy
20:38	zrilak	rewrite Emacs in Clojure i.p.o. ELisp, and hook it up to Eclipse/IDEA's windowing system instead. O:-)
20:39	zrilak	oh, and assign extra meta keys for all those IDE-specific bindings
20:39	hiredman	I opened intellij the other day, saw it opened class files, never having written elisp before I wrote a mode and hook for file loading that opened a buffer with the javap output when you open a class file in emacs
20:40	hiredman	the hook took about an hour, the mode (syntax hilighting) took a few days to figure out
20:40	zrilak	sounds cool
20:40	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/javap-mode/blob/master/javap.el
20:41	hiredman	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/images/javap-mode.png
20:41	hiredman	in intellij you just get method signatures when you open a class file
20:42	zrilak	obligatory "I like the color theme"
21:03	dnolen	hiredman: that javap.el thing is pretty cool.
21:03	hiredman	thanks, I am very proud of it given it is my first elisp :)
21:18	joshua__	Hey, what is infinity in Clojure?
21:19	tomoj	a double?
21:20	tomoj	is that a trick question?
21:20	Raynes	&Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY
21:20	sexpbot	⟹ Infinity
21:20	Raynes	joshua__: ^
21:20	joshua__	Raynes, Thanks
21:21	joshua__	tomoj, Nope. I thought there was a Clojure specific Infinity.. =/
21:22	tomoj	huh, didn't realize that prints unreadably
21:22	tomoj	er.. unevalably?
21:23	tomoj	..readably but wrongly
21:23	dnolen	&Float/POSITIVE_INFINITY
21:23	sexpbot	⟹ Infinity
21:26	Dumas	=