#clojure – 2011-04-18

2011-04-18

02:06	Havvy	How can you test "String can be converted into integer"?
02:15	mec	,(map #(try (bigint %) (catch NumberFormatException e :nope)) ["5" "5.0" "1/3" "high"]) ;p
02:15	clojurebot	mec: Pardon?
02:15	amalloy	mec: catch is a no-no for bots
02:15	mec	aw
02:16	Havvy	So no other choice than using try/catch... :(
02:17	mec	I suck at regex but something like #"^-?[0-9]*" should do
02:17	Havvy	Oh, duh...
02:23	mec	,(map #(re-seq #"^\-?[0-9]*$" %) ["5" "5.0" "1/3" "high"])
02:23	clojurebot	(("5") nil nil nil)
02:43	markoman	is there some general function to check if some value is "empty" ?
02:43	markoman	"" [] {} {{}{}} nil for example
02:44	shachaf	markoman: {{}{}} isn't empty.
02:46	markoman	shachaf: by which function call you can check it?
02:47	shachaf	No idea. Seems like an odd operation.
02:49	amalloy	if you give up on identifying {{}{}} as empty, you can use empty?
02:49	amalloy	&(map empty? ["" [] {} {{}{}} nil])
02:49	sexpbot	⟹ (true true true false true)
02:49	shachaf	Ah, there you go.
02:49	amalloy	empty? is basically (complement seq)
02:52	markoman	i see, i though empty? is just for strings. if i want to check {{}{}} i need to make nested check. is there some way to use map for nested things like {{}{}} or [[][]]
02:52	amalloy	markoman: it is a terrible idea
02:52	mec	&(map (comp empty? flatten) ["" [] {} {{}{}} nil])
02:52	sexpbot	⟹ (true true true true true)
02:53	amalloy	mec: when someone walks into your store crying, asking for a pistol, don't sell them one. what people think they want is often pretty far off from what is good for them
02:54	mec	but those are the people willing to pay extra :D
02:54	amalloy	also that doesn't really work: ##((comp empty? flatten) [""])
02:54	sexpbot	⟹ false
02:55	mec	anywho, I added a findarg to sexpbot but I have no idea how to test the whole thing to see if it works
02:55	amalloy	mec: where's your fork?
02:56	mec	https://github.com/mecdemort/sexpbot
02:57	markoman	so I think I need to make sure data structure doesnt contain empty nested maps. this is good for now
02:57	amalloy	mec: doesn't compile
02:57	amalloy	i'll have a look
02:57	mec	bah, the find-arg works fine on its own, I just kind of shoved it in there tho
02:59	amalloy	mec: kinda-sorta works with a little tweak. needs better syntax
02:59	amalloy	:findarg map '% [1 2 3] [2 3 4]
03:00	buttered-toast	[clojure.core/unchecked-inc clojure.core/inc]
03:00	amalloy	very neat though
03:00	mec	what was the tweak needed?
03:00	amalloy	you just used the wrong name
03:00	amalloy	for a symbol
03:00	amalloy	the tweak i think it still needs is some way to not need to quote %
03:01	mec	ooo right, forgot to rename that
03:01	amalloy	:part #clojure
03:01	buttered-toast	Bai!
03:01	amalloy	man. that part message needs to die
03:02	mec	I was having the same problem with findfn, but if you make it a macro so you dont have to quote, then other things break
03:07	amalloy	mec: fixed
03:08	amalloy	as long as nobody wants to use % for something else :P
03:09	mec	since its the normal aphorism for #() i dont think its too common to use it elsewhere
03:09	mec	r/aphorism/anaphora/
03:10	amalloy	$findfn #(inc %) [1] [2]
03:10	sexpbot	[clojure.core/map clojure.core/pmap clojure.core/keep]
03:10	amalloy	i think my fix breaks that behavior
03:11	amalloy	wow, it doesn't. three cheers for clojure's reader
03:13	amalloy	mec: anyway, thanks. that'll be added next time sexpbot gets reloaded
03:13	mec	cool
03:42	Derander	$findfn 1 2
03:42	sexpbot	[clojure.core/unchecked-inc clojure.core/inc]
03:42	Derander	bad ass
03:42	Derander	$findfn [1 2 3 4] [[1 2] [3 4]]
03:42	sexpbot	[]
03:43	Derander	$findfn 2 2 [1 2 3 4] ((1 2]) (3 4))
03:43	sexpbot	[]
03:43	Derander	$findfn 2 1 [1 2 3 4] ((1 2]) (3 4))
03:43	sexpbot	[]
03:43	Derander	$findfn 2 2 [1 2 3 4] ((1 2)) (3 4))
03:43	sexpbot	java.security.PrivilegedActionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
03:43	amalloy	:findarg 2 [1 2 3 4] [[1 2] [3 4]]
03:43	buttered-toast	[]
03:43	amalloy	gr
03:43	Derander	$findfn 2 2 [1 2 3 4] ((1 2) (3 4))
03:43	sexpbot	java.security.PrivilegedActionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
03:43	Derander	I fail
03:43	Derander	giving up now
03:44	amalloy	$findfn 2 [1 2 3 4] [[1 2] [3 4]]
03:44	sexpbot	[clojure.core/split-at clojure.core/partition-all clojure.core/partition]
03:44	amalloy	Derander: ^
03:45	Derander	doesn't partition take two integer args optionally?
03:46	amalloy	Derander: yes. but you never gave it a wellformed thing to test against :P
03:46	Derander	nooooooo
03:46	amalloy	$findfn 2 2 [1 2 3 4] [[1 2] [3 4]]
03:46	sexpbot	[clojure.core/partition-all clojure.core/partition]
03:46	Derander	hahahahahah
03:46	Derander	god damnit.
03:46	Derander	I need paredit for irc
03:46	amalloy	Derander: funny you should mention that!
03:46	amalloy	&(let [x 1) (inc x))
03:46	sexpbot	⟹ 2 ; Adjusted to (let [x 1] (inc x))
03:47	Derander	I do not understand
03:47	Derander	oh
03:47	Derander	impressive
03:48	amalloy	it only works in contexts where he knows the rest of the line is an input. eg, ##(let [x 1) (inc x)) won't work, because he tries to (read) what comes after ## to see if it's a command
03:48	Derander	understand
03:48	Derander	understood*
03:48	Derander	damn, writing ability goes way down after midnight apparently
03:48	Derander	strangely though I'm dominating at words for friends
04:32	markoman	hmh.. i have a function that returns a sequence, but I'd like return value be a map
04:32	ejackson	markoman: try (into {} )
04:32	ejackson	you'll have to get the key/val orders correct
04:34	amalloy	&(into {} (map vec (partition 2 (range 10))))
04:34	sexpbot	⟹ {0 1, 2 3, 4 5, 6 7, 8 9}
04:34	ejackson	,(into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3]])
04:34	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}
04:36	markoman	its a deep nested map inside, but basically goes like: ({:key "val"} {:key "val"}) -> [{:key "val"} {:key "val"}]
04:36	markoman	and sorry, its not a map on return but a list
04:37	ejackson	markoman: try merge in that case
04:38	markoman	im giving this to the function: [{:key "val"} {:key "val"}] and expect [{:key "val2"} {:key "val2"}] but instead getting ({:key "val2"} {:key "val2"})
04:38	ejackson	,(apply merge [{:a 1} {:b 2} {:c 3}])
04:38	clojurebot	{:c 3, :b 2, :a 1}
04:39	ejackson	so you want a vector, but its giving you a list ?
04:39	ejackson	,(into [] '({:k1 :v1} {:k2 :v2}))
04:39	clojurebot	[{:k1 :v1} {:k2 :v2}]
04:40	markoman	im still bad with terms, but id say i want [] but get sequence () probably because of for loop i have there inside the function
04:40	markoman	ok, i think i need to try into
04:41	amalloy	markoman, ejackson: (vec foo) is better than (into [] foo) most of the time
04:41	ejackson	markoman: by design everything accepts and returns seqs, and you then plonk that into whatever concrete structure you want after processing.
04:41	ejackson	amalloy: why's that ?
04:42	amalloy	ejackson: it's clearer in intent, i think. and shorter, not that that matters much
04:43	ejackson	OK. I always use into when 'casting' as its clearer to me that way. Funny.
04:44	amalloy	ejackson: well, into is overloaded a bit
04:44	amalloy	&(into [1 2 3] [4 5])
04:44	sexpbot	⟹ [1 2 3 4 5]
04:44	amalloy	ie, it's not always for putting something into an empty collection
04:45	ejackson	that's true, its got a bit conj hustle going on as well.
04:45	ejackson	i see you point amalloy
04:45	amalloy	but (into {}) is super-useful
04:45	amalloy	vec is probably faster too, since it gets you into java-land
04:46	amalloy	&(time (dotimes [_ 1e4] (vec (range 1000))))
04:46	sexpbot	⟹ "Elapsed time: 4604.595346 msecs" nil
04:46	amalloy	&(time (dotimes [_ 1e4] (into [] (range 1000))))
04:46	sexpbot	⟹ "Elapsed time: 3153.579926 msecs" nil
04:46	amalloy	haha
04:46	ejackson	:D
04:46	amalloy	ejackson: you win this round, but i'll be back!
04:46	ejackson	,botstnack
04:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: botstnack in this context
04:46	ejackson	,botsnack
04:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: botsnack in this context
04:47	ejackson	hehehe, i hate it when that happens
04:47	amalloy	$botsnack
04:47	sexpbot	amalloy: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
04:47	amalloy	(since i was using sexpbot anyway)
04:47	ejackson	oh yeah, you're using sexpbot.
04:47	amalloy	~botsnack
04:47	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
04:47	amalloy	to talk to clojurebot
04:47	ejackson	its like perl in here with these bots...
04:48	amalloy	> 1
04:48	hsbot	1
04:48	ejackson	thanks amalloy, i'll try to remember (again)
04:48	ejackson	hsbot !
04:48	ejackson	who's that ?
04:48	amalloy	i know, i noticed him yesterday
04:48	amalloy	he's someone's haskell bot
04:48	amalloy	> [1,4..15]
04:48	hsbot	[1,4,7,10,13]
04:48	ejackson	hmmmmm
05:01	markoman	so its into :)
05:08	ejackson	alrighty.
06:34	fliebel	Where would I look for creating cool interfaces on Mac? Like ones that really go swoosh and poof, and not simply look like Mac widgets.
06:37	ejackson	fliebel: tried apache pivot ?
06:38	ejackson	dunno about its coefficient of poof, however.
06:39	fliebel	ejackson: No I did not. Googling now.
06:39	ejackson	i always end up using Swing though
06:40	fliebel	ejackson: Can you make Swing apps that look and feel good on Mac?
06:40	ejackson	good enough for me...
06:41	ejackson	perhaps there's some grating nastiness that I'm not sensitive enough to notice
06:41	mrBliss``	fliebel: http://code.google.com/p/macwidgets/
06:41	fliebel	mrBliss``: Is that with wx?
06:42	mrBliss``	fliebel: nope, just swing but requires some jars
06:42	fliebel	looks nice...
06:43	mrBliss``	fliebel: http://www.devdaily.com/apple/mac/java-mac-native-look/java-on-mac.shtml
06:43	ejackson	mrBliss``: cool
06:47	fliebel	exit pivot. Even worse than Swing so far.
07:52	markoman	im still struggling with changing sequence to list/vector
07:57	markoman	two for loops iterates and returns ( ( {'a 'b} ) ( {'c 'd} ) ) but what i want is simpler form [{'a 'b} {'c 'd}]
08:14	kephale	, (apply vector '(1 2 3))
08:14	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
08:14	kephale	, (apply vector (flatten (list '( 1 2 3) (3 4 5)))
08:14	clojurebot	EOF while reading
08:14	kephale	err
08:15	kephale	, (apply vector (flatten (list '( 1 2 3) (3 4 5))))
08:15	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
08:15	kephale	gagh
08:15	kephale	oh
08:15	kephale	(apply vector (flatten (list '( 1 2 3) '(3 4 5))))
08:15	kephale	, (apply vector (flatten (list '( 1 2 3) '(3 4 5))))
08:15	clojurebot	[1 2 3 3 4 5]
08:15	kephale	dunno if you need the flatten though
08:16	markoman	i need to test
08:16	kephale	it looks like you might though
08:18	markoman	its also in recursive loop. im using into [] at the moment, but problem is, i get too many nests, it may well be, that flatten works when wrapped over for loops
08:19	opqdonut_	markoman: are you aware that you can do (for [thing some-things element-of-thing thing] ...) ?
08:20	opqdonut_	,(let [vs [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]]] (for [v vs el v] {:a el}))
08:20	clojurebot	({:a 1} {:a 2} {:a 3} {:a 4} {:a 5} {:a 6})
08:24	markoman	hmh... probably not useful in this case, but good to know. it looks similar to let [a b c (d a)]
08:24	opqdonut_	yeah but you kinda get the flatten for free
08:30	markoman	oh yes. well the problem is two for loops returns sequence, which i want to be a vector, its kinda backward
08:32	markoman	let me test, if its still confusing, i need to put a pastebin
08:32	kephale	mmm, yeah, i'm not sure why a concat wont work
09:53	scottj	moving webapp from just jetty to jetty in dev and tomcat in production, I was using an environment variable to tell app whether it's test/dev/production, any recommendations for how best to do that with wars? set an environment variable on tomcat itself?
10:00	joegallo	jndi works well for that sort of thing
11:54	amalloy	kephale: flatten is dreadful for "general use". it will always mash every level of nesting all the way down; usually you want something that mashes a predefined level of nesting
11:54	KirinDave	Please to enjoy being confused by this: https://github.com/ryan-allen/lispy
11:54	KirinDave	Completely inscrutable.
11:55	KirinDave	It's like, 'Yes, smalltalkers did indeed do this. Not sure where lisp comes in."
11:55	amalloy	eg here he probly wants (into [] (mapcat whatever-function-you-were-using-map-with the-collection))
13:04	ilyak	hi *
13:05	ilyak	What's the best way to express the following idiom in Clojure: reading file by one line and being able to read "current" line and advance to the next one
13:05	ilyak	We should forget "current" line when we advanced, but we would need to read the "current" line multiple times
13:06	manutter	Are you familiar with line-seq?
13:07	pjstadig	,(doc line-seq)
13:07	clojurebot	"([rdr]); Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader."
13:07	ilyak	So the first operation would be (first) and the second operation would be (rest)?
13:07	pjstadig	most often used inside of a with-open, but you just have to make sure the lazy seq doesn't escape the with-open, or bad things will happen
13:08	ilyak	Would it handle calling (first) more than once and would it properly discard old lines when (rest) is called?
13:09	pjstadig	you could do (with-open [f (reader "somefile")] (doseq [current (line-seq f)] do-something))
13:09	pyr	what about read-lines ?
13:09	pyr	(doseq [line (read-lines "/some/file")] (do-something-with line))
13:09	manutter	Why do you need to read the first line more than once? Could you just put the current line into a variable and re-use that as needed?
13:10	technomancy	read-lines is deprecated as it was a common source of resource leaks
13:10	technomancy	because it doesn't work with with-open
13:13	raek	ilyak: when you use a lazy sequence like line-seq, you can hold on to a certain subsequence, go forward in the sequence, discover that you need to try someting in another way and jump back to the old subsequence
13:13	raek	ilyak: calling first multiple times on the same object will yield the same value
13:13	ilyak	raek: okay, it's cool
13:17	ilyak	If I (map ... lazy-seq), would I get another lazy-seq with those magical properties?
13:17	raek	ilyak: yes, you would :)
13:18	amalloy	heh, magic. funny because it's true
13:20	raek	ilyak: you can also use reader from the clojure.java.io namespace to get a suitable object to pass to line-seq
13:29	TimMc	OK, I just want to map across the vals of a map. Anything better than (fn [[k v]] ...) ?
13:29	TimMc	(more terse)
13:29	ataggart	(map f (vals m))
13:30	TimMc	Yeah, but I want the whole map back. :-(
13:30	TimMc	Like, (map-vals inc {:a 0, :b 1}) -> {:a 1, :b 2}
13:31	TimMc	$findfn inc {:a 0, :b 1} {:a 1, :b 2}
13:31	sexpbot	[]
13:31	ataggart	seems like there should be, but I can't think of one
13:31	fliebel	TimMc: fmap in generic.functor or whatever.
13:32	fliebel	TimMc: Not that keys and vals for the same map are guaranteed to have the same order, so you can map over vals and reunite them.
13:32	fliebel	*note
13:32	raek	(into {} (for [[k v] m] [(f k) (g v)])) is one option
13:32	ataggart	(reduce (fn [[k v]] [k (f v)]) m) is about it for core
13:33	ataggart	throw a {} in the above
13:33	fliebel	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.generic.functor/fmap
13:33	raek	(zipmap (map f (keys m)) (map g (vals m))) is another
13:33	ataggart	skinning cats is fun
13:35	TimMc	raek: Yeah, zipmap is probably what I'll go with -- the map already has a name, so it's easy to refer to it twice.
13:48	TimMc	(apply zipmap (juxt keys (comp (partial map boolean) vals)))
13:51	bulters	gday all
13:52	bulters	anyone here familiar with efforts of "interfacing" with git from clojure?
13:53	hiredman	http://eclipse.org/jgit/
13:54	bulters	facepalm
13:54	bulters	(stuck in ruby mindset of looking for gems)
13:56	amalloy	webar7: probably. a lot of the grosser java "wiring-together" has been replaced with clojure-specific wiring for many projects, though, so you might not see as much of that as you'd like
13:57	webar7	oh hmmm i'm from python/zope/fabric/django beackground as far as any coding goes ... those are all very different of course so even though "in python" ... hmm
13:57	webar7	amalloy, ok I grok
13:58	webar7	then I get levels of abstraction via leinegen (sp?) etc etc
13:58	amalloy	leiningen
13:59	webar7	amalloy, thanks ... I will fiddle a bit with it and see what I learn
13:59	amalloy	webar7: check out Ring - it's clojure's super-simple modular web server
14:00	webar7	ok ... I think it got installed in the project by adding it to the project.clj and running leiningen ... anyway it's fun to do lisp in a web environment but the error messages from the JVM are freaky!!
14:00	bulters	amalloy: only thing left is the deployment on a server...
14:00	bulters	amalloy: luckily I'm not there yet ;-)
14:02	webar7	I think what I want now is to wire things up with routes etc. and then have some pages just be handled statically but with clojure code execed before rendering
14:02	webar7	so I will look at ring and related tools
14:04	webar7	by the time I know what i'm doing maybe appengine will support clojure :) ?
14:04	webar7	oh wait ...
14:04	mids	webar7: check out 'appengine-magic'
14:04	webar7	woah
14:05	webar7	ok then maybe by the time I know what I'm doing google will have bought java from Oracle and relicensed it :)
14:05	amalloy	webar7: appengine doesn't have to support clojure. it supports java, which is kinda the point :)
14:09	webar7	amalloy, :)
14:11	webar7	amalloy, I've been working with BSD based systems mostly (usually very small or for dedicated stuff like email or proxying) so have avoided java ... if only to avoid the hassle of installing it :-\
14:13	webar7	maybe Oracle trying too/so hard monetize as much as possible and ASAP means they really think java has "jumped the shark" :)
14:14	webar7	does clojure run on dalvik :)
14:15	amalloy	webar7: slowly
14:15	webar7	WOW!
14:15	webar7	impressed by the fact it runs at all
14:15	webar7	nice
14:15	amalloy	it's all "just java" underneath
14:16	webar7	gotta love LISP ... invented before computers ... in use "after" computers ;-)
14:16	amalloy	heh. no doubt PCs were viewed as "after" computers back in the mainframe days
14:17	webar7	so clojure could run on other "open" jvm's or stack/register vm's that can "pretend" to be java
14:18	TimMc	webar7: Clojure can be run anywhere JVM bytecode can be run.
14:18	webar7	hmm that's very broad :)
14:20	webar7	it seems like one could write something using lisp that simultaneously creates a dedicated "client" to run with a java "GUI" and web based UI (CSS etc)
14:21	amalloy	that such tasks are possible does not make them easy
14:23	bulters	if every small task whas easy, then large tasks are easy as well
14:23	bulters	where** (damn)
14:23	bulters	DAMNIT
14:23	bulters	you get the point
14:25	fmw	I'm trying to send a form submission using clj-http, but there seems to be something wrong with the request: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/374016/ (screenshot of a tshark capture of the request/response: http://vix.io/post_request_capture.png)
14:25	fmw	does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
14:25	fmw	I've compared my post requests with post requests made by curl/chrome and my request looks OK
14:26	amalloy	fmw: your boundary has ---- once, and ----- once
14:27	fmw	amalloy: I copied that from Chrome
14:27	fmw	afaik its correct?
14:28	amalloy	shrug maybe so. seems a bit loony to copy a bunch of output from chrome instead of just posting edit_week=test or whatever
14:28	amalloy	i mean, i'm not an expert at form encoding, but chrome looks like it's including a lot of overhead just in case it wants to do multi-part mime-encoded forms, when the minimal data needed to POST something is much simpler
14:29	raek	for it to work you should have boundary=<some string> in the content type and then delimit the sections with --<some string> .... --<some string> .... --<some string--
14:30	raek	fmw: it looks like you are one - short in the two form-data lines
14:30	raek	oh sorry, you're not
14:31	raek	I made a mistake when I counted them.... :)
14:31	fmw	raek: aye, I had that wrong a few times, myself, but at least that part seems fixed now
14:33	fmw	amalloy: I agree with you there, but for now the Chrome version is known to work, so felt safer to just copy & paste
14:33	clizzin	is lein-javac still useful, or has leiningen swallowed up that functionality with one of its options? if so, which option?
14:35	raek	clizzin: it is in leiningen now.
14:36	fmw	raek: any chance the request is correct but PHP expects some additional headers to be present to process it?
14:36	clizzin	raek: what option is it equivalent to? just set :java-source-path, and it just works?
14:37	raek	you might be able to just put the java source files in src/ too, but you can use :java-source-path like this: https://github.com/raek/map-exception/blob/master/project.clj
14:37	Nikelandjelo	Is there standard function for comparing 2 collections (nested collections too). E.g. compare [[1 2] [3 4]] '((1 2) (3 4)) are equal
14:37	clizzin	raek: excellent, thank you!
14:37	hiredman	,(= [[1 2] [3 4]] '((1 2) (3 4)))
14:37	clojurebot	true
14:37	raek	clizzin: I think so
14:38	Nikelandjelo	hiredman: Oh :) Thanks. I am ashamed
14:39	amalloy	it's okay, you're used to languages that enjoy making things hard. you'll get the hang of clojure's ease-of-use
14:40	clizzin	hahaha
14:40	fmw	amalloy, raek: thanks, I've got it working. dropped multipart/form-data and went with appplication/x-www-form-urlencoded instead, using a simple foo=bar string as a body
14:41	amalloy	hooray
14:47	fmw	btw, is it worth it switching from vim to emacs for because of Clojure? I've been drewling at all the nice Emacs goodness for Lisp since I picked up Clojure, but although I used it as my first editor over 10 years ago I hardly remember how emacs works
14:47	fmw	also, I quite like Vim and have invested a lot of time into learning it over the last couple of years
14:47	amalloy	fmw: there are vim users who write clojure. some of them are even smart people, so there must be something to it
14:48	technomancy	fmw: we make people use Emacs at work. we have hired 3 vim users, and 1 of them still uses vim outside work.
14:48	technomancy	as a data point.
14:48	fmw	amalloy: aye, I remember that Paul Graham is using vim too
14:49	fmw	technomancy: you make people use emacs? because of some in-house emacs plugins or something?
14:49	technomancy	fmw: for pair programming.
14:49	amalloy	fmw: because emacs is the best
14:49	fmw	technomancy: hmm, valid point
14:50	rak85	hi, guys!
14:50	fmw	I might just dive into emacs again, soon
14:50	fmw	org-mode and the email client seem nice benefits too
14:51	amalloy	fmw: after a couple weeks of pain you'll be as productive as you were with vim, and then it keeps going upwards
14:51	rak85	i have a list and want to iterate over its items in order to make side effects; actually save in a database...what's the best approach you would consider for this?
14:51	amalloy	doseq
14:51	technomancy	in my book the best part is having paredit available for IRC
14:51	fmw	right now I'm using mutt with vim as an external editor, but the integration could be better
14:51	amalloy	&(doseq [x (range 5)] (prn x))
14:51	sexpbot	⟹ 0 1 2 3 4 nil
14:51	fmw	oh yes, I forgot that emacs is an OS ;)
14:51	fmw	IRC client too! :)
14:52	rak85	&(println "teste")
14:52	sexpbot	⟹ teste nil
14:52	fmw	amalloy: why do you think I'll be more productive writing Clojure in Emacs?
14:52	amalloy	fmw: and shell! web browser! chess board! do whatever you want without ever closing emacs :P
14:52	amalloy	paredit. slime
14:52	rak85	ammaloy: thanks!
14:52	amalloy	also the massive customizability of .emacs
14:53	scottj	fmw: if you're super good at vim I don't think switching makes sense
14:53	fmw	and as an editor? it seems nice as an OS, but I'm still quite fond of modal editing etc
14:54	fmw	scottj: I would say I'm super good at it, but quite experienced at least
14:54	fmw	s/would/wouldn't
14:54	sexpbot	<fmw> scottj: I wouldn't say I'm super good at it, but quite experienced at least
14:54	amalloy	fmw: you could try...what is it, viper, for making emacs keybindings more like the vim ones?
14:55	amalloy	or vimpulse? i think i've heard of both of those things
14:55	fmw	amalloy: aye, I've read about that plugin
14:55	fmw	vimpulse yes
14:56	amalloy	but i dunno. i fumbled along with vim for years, never really attained proficiency, and then tried emacs when i started common lisp
14:56	fmw	oth, when I'll lose modal editing I guess I can just as well bite the bullet and grow that extra finger so I can press control all the time
14:56	amalloy	so i'm not really an ideal "switch from vim to emacs" consultant
14:56	scottj	fmw: emacs is good, but I think an advanced vim user would find things lacking that they'd have to add and might find the keybindings not quite as nice
14:57	amalloy	fmw: heh, so true. map caps-lock to an extra ctl key if you do; hugely more comfortable
14:57	leifw	+1 amalloy
14:57	scottj	fmw: for example, emacs doesn't have two move forward/backward by beginning/end of word.
14:57	fmw	hmm
14:57	technomancy	fmw: foot pedal
14:57	pjstadig	technomancy: hooooly crap i want one!
14:57	amalloy	technomancy: that sounds hardcore and awesome
14:58	dnolen	technomancy: I had one.
14:58	fmw	heh, might be a good investment :)
14:58	amalloy	need one for meta too though
14:58	leifw	technomancy: I always wanted a foot pedal
14:58	technomancy	well it doesn't work with a standing desk unfortunately =\
14:58	pjstadig	i play the drums, so a couple of foot pedals would be nice
14:58	lancepantz	na, the kinesis gives you 6 buttons per thumb, they might as well brand it as an emacs keyboard
14:58	amalloy	technomancy: pressure sensitive. lean forward if you want meta
14:59	scottj	like dance dance emacs?
14:59	amalloy	scottj: or that
15:00	leifw	lancepantz: <3 kinesis
15:00	lancepantz	:D
15:00	lancepantz	it's also fantastic for rsi
15:00	pjstadig	lancepantz: as in causing it or curing it?
15:00	lancepantz	curing :)
15:00	lancepantz	i used to have to wear wrist braces at night
15:00	leifw	haha emacs is fantastic for causing it :-P
15:01	lancepantz	now i don't even think about it
15:01	technomancy	man... I really do not buy the "use doall+map-indexed instead of doseq+indexed" argument at all.
15:01	lancepantz	to be fair thats when i was a vim user!
15:01	technomancy	doall is ugly; sometimes you're i/o bound and don't care about the extra consing. =\
15:02	technomancy	indexed is way more composable
15:02	amalloy	technomancy: dorun+map-indexed?
15:02	amalloy	$source indexed
15:02	sexpbot	Source not found.
15:02	amalloy	where is this indexed nonsense
15:03	leifw	$source map-indexed
15:03	sexpbot	map-indexed is http://is.gd/VNs4dX
15:03	technomancy	amalloy: indexed didn't get promoted from c.c.seq because it's a lot slower than map-indexed
15:03	technomancy	but sometimes you just want a seq without mapping and you're not penny-pinching GC cycles. =\
15:04	technomancy	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/msg/d8e342f54ea3db3b
15:06	amalloy	technomancy: i don't understand what you would use indexed for. just (map-indexed vector my-coll) if that's what you want, no?
15:06	technomancy	yeah, I was about to say (def indexed (partial map-indexed list))
15:06	technomancy	I just prefer the more composable version over the faster one.
15:09	technomancy	plus there are times when for is clearer than map
15:10	amalloy	technomancy: indeed there are a lot of such times
15:11	fliebel	I am with technomancy on this one. I frequently do (map-indexed vector some-list) to use it for something else.
15:12	fliebel	Now we have map-indexed, reduce-indexed, but not filter-indexed, reductions-indexed, etc. (I'm not saying we should!)
15:12	technomancy	well, there is keep-indexed
15:13	webar7	wow ... clojure REPL emacs eshell and SLIME
15:13	webar7	nice :-P
15:16	webar7	there must be a few different approaches to writing "Active Clojure Pages" (hehe) i.e. html-ish pages that I can keep in ./resources/public/ or ./resources/clojure_pages and which get eval'ed (?) with stuff added by the client and my app's main handler ...
15:16	webar7	but what are they called ?
15:16	webar7	there's been a clojure explojion in my brain ... I feel like someone who has been using perl for 20 years but just discovered CPAN or something
15:17	pjstadig	and ugh for using dorun+map for side effects seems like doseq+indexed would be a better use
15:17	mids	take a look at hiccup and enlive
15:18	Raynes	I don't think there is anything precisely like rhtml in Clojure.
15:18	Raynes	Enlive is probably the closest.
15:19	webar7	hmm ok ... I'm thinking functional web programming a very different thing
15:19	webar7	I will loook at those
15:19	redinger	Enlive is pretty awesome
15:20	ataggart	enlive is pretty slick, see this tutorial: https://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial
15:20	webar7	but I will first observe my own patterns of use for a few more days ... I just noticed I am thinking differently about HTTP :) this is very nice brain tickling
15:20	webar7	cool thanks
15:20	ataggart	I'm just hoping someone comes up with a more REST-y lib for ring so I don't have to write one.
15:21	fliebel	Does anyone have experience using JNA from Clojure?
15:21	webar7	ataggart, I love REST
15:22	KirinDave	Enlive is like... visionary.
15:22	KirinDave	I dunno what prior art exists for it
15:23	ataggart	fliebel: iirc someone wrote something to work with JNI. Not the same, but might point in the right direction.
15:23	KirinDave	But it's pretty much the only sensible way to develop software that is going to have nontrivial templating.
15:23	ataggart	KirinDave: after living through two years of an XSL-based website, I agree.
15:24	webar7	ataggart, and rest too for that matter ... :)
15:24	fliebel	ataggart: JNI still requires C code. JNA works in pure Java using interfaces, so I was thinking… defprotocol.
15:24	KirinDave	ataggart: Every time I see someone use sexps to generate nontrivial html, I get very very irritated.
15:24	KirinDave	It's like, "Yes. Toys exist. Stop playing with them when we're talking about grownup stuff."
15:25	ataggart	fliebel: if you get something together, I'd be interested. right now I'm punting on some pgp work by just making shell calls.
15:25	webar7	crikey! in a parallel universe connected by my own personal wormhole I just discovered fossil can pull and push and do git-ful things so I can use repos of clojure stuff pulled from git or various googlecode sorts of repos in my project which I then control my own parts of with fossil-scm
15:25	opqdonut_	KirinDave: /me worked on a project that generated everything using cl-who
15:25	fliebel	KirinDave: The difference between man and boy is the price of their toys. But then, this is all opens ource. Time for a new theory…
15:25	webar7	is that the "normal" way or does one use a clojure specific tool that updates the project classes one is using?
15:26	technomancy	KirinDave: the problem is it's so obvious and easy to implement that people are going to do it no matter what. ("wait a minute; these are trees, and these are trees... what happens if we...!!!")
15:26	KirinDave	technomancy: I try hard to be nice.
15:26	KirinDave	technomancy: But I am sort of tired of people who are just getting the basic idea now.
15:27	KirinDave	Part of that anger is directed at schools whos teaching is easily 20 years out of date now, in many cases.
15:27	KirinDave	technomancy: For example, my cousin is going to college right now. They're using Python to teach him.
15:27	KirinDave	Good start, I guess
15:27	ataggart	Now that MIT has bailed on it, does any school still teach using a lisp?
15:28	fliebel	Wait a moment… Why can't interfaces in Clojure extend another interface?
15:28	ataggart	fliebel: interfaces can, protocols can't
15:28	KirinDave	technomancy: He writes to me that he's angry he didn't get an A for this: http://pastebin.com/t7NtXnut
15:28	fliebel	$doc definterface
15:28	amalloy	ataggart: iirc there's no syntax in clojure to define an interface that extends another
15:28	ataggart	amalloy: ah fair enough
15:29	amalloy	ataggart: berkley uses scheme, i think
15:29	KirinDave	technomancy: Now I get he's a 1st year student and that code is common...
15:29	fliebel	amalloy: Oh, there goes all hope to implement JNA cleanly.
15:29	KirinDave	technomancy: But shiiit. I'd be hesitant to give that code a C outside of an introductory class.
15:30	ataggart	amalloy: I guess the argument now that we have protocols would be: "don't do that"
15:30	fliebel	How would I write this example in Clojure? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Native_Access
15:31	KirinDave	technomancy: When he was asking me to do his work for him I kinda replied in true bastard fashion: https://gist.github.com/10c6c81fbb98536fd8d8
15:31	webar7	If I do "lein new blahblahproject" ... then describe stuff in project file can I then run lein <something> to pull required jars into ./lib ? python/ruby have tools for this but since I know no java and the lisp is "higher up" not sure if I should use dvcs or some java tool?
15:32	webar7	ataggart, MIT seems to have no sense of history :) kerberos X lisp why bail?
15:32	raek	webar7: "lein deps" will pull the required jars into lib/
15:33	technomancy	KirinDave: heh. "Problem?"
15:33	KirinDave	technomancy: He was pretty unhappy with me.
15:34	webar7	raek, thanks
15:35	KirinDave	technomancy: And yet, why couldn't a first year student be using haskell? Is there really anything THAT complex? It's just alien. Same with clojure.
15:35	webar7	I just discover lein deps 10 seconds later :) but ... can't figure out how it works (I guess I need a bit of java dev env for browsing around jars and seeing how they connect)
15:36	technomancy	KirinDave: depends on the school. for trade schools it just doesn't address the target market. and most schools are trade schools.
15:36	webar7	raek, is it pulling .jars and java libs from vcs'es all over the place or is there a java (errm I mean clojure) collection of all the required stuff ?
15:36	KirinDave	technomancy: Another sentiment I don't entirely understand, but that's a different conversation :)
15:36	technomancy	KirinDave: not condoning it, just making an observation.
15:37	KirinDave	To me, that kind of thinking would have graduated no automotive engineers because the horse and buggy market was target.
15:37	webar7	raek, it seems like lein dep does a CPAN like scan of dependencies but ... where? :)
15:37	fliebel	chouser: Oh, thanks for sorting out all the nasty details for me! https://github.com/Chouser/clojure-jna
15:37	technomancy	webar7: "lein help tutorial" ought to sort you out
15:37	raek	webar7: it uses the maven dependency resolution system and some repos (clojars.org, the clojure build server, maven central, iirc)
15:38	webar7	technomancy, :)
15:38	webar7	raek, ahah! ok thanks just wanted to look around there without using lein
15:38	webar7	cheers
15:39	digash	,(map #(do [% %]) [1 2 3])
15:39	clojurebot	([1 1] [2 2] [3 3])
15:39	digash	,(System/exit 1)
15:39	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.1)
15:40	webar7	ataggart, I think lisp is taught where ever AI is taught ... once upon a time it seemed compsci specific
15:40	webar7	ataggart, but now it seems more interesting to non compsci audience
15:42	jlf	ataggart: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details_new.php?seriesid=2011-B-26281&semesterid=2011-B
15:43	webar7	but I guess people doing stuff like writing "lisp interpreters" in ruby are compsci majors :)
15:46	rak85	(println "teste")
15:46	rak85	,(println "teste")
15:46	clojurebot	teste
15:47	rak85	-(println "teste")
15:47	rak85	why & and , ?
15:49	TimMc	rak85: & and , are just bot-specific triggers
15:49	webar7	PhilG's 10th rule hmm
15:50	webar7	what is that
15:50	webar7	oh ... "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
15:50	webar7	hehe
15:50	webar7	thanks for pointers
15:53	rak85	thanks TimMc
16:01	fliebel	$mail chouser Thanks for clojure-jna. I think it could use some Maven love though. Is there a reason it doesn't have a pom.xml or project.clj?
16:01	sexpbot	Message saved.
16:07	lancepantz	Any sufficiently complicated irc bot contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implmentation of half of an operating system?
16:07	KirinDave	Ha
16:07	lancepantz	lance's corallary
16:11	fliebel	lancepantz: But large applications already contain an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half Clojure, so you're already halfway there.
16:11	lancepantz	hehe
16:11	lancepantz	the best was the nosql one technomancy tweeted
16:11	fliebel	?
16:12	lancepantz	Any sufficiently complicated NoSQL program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of SQL.
16:12	fliebel	Yea, you can pretty much define a nosql db in one line of clojure: (ref {})
16:12	lancepantz	source: http://twitter.com/#!/kellan/status/10504462699331584
16:13	fliebel	lancepantz: But that would mean Clojure is a half ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of SQL.
16:15	lancepantz	but is SQL a half ad hoc informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of Common Lisp?
16:17	lancepantz	i hope this channel log gets a high pagerank for "ad hoc informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow
16:17	lancepantz	implementation"
16:17	fliebel	lancepantz: SQL is at least specified.
16:18	lancepantz	fliebel: very true
16:18	fliebel	That would do Clojure no good, not at all being ad hoc informally-specified, bug-ridden and slow.
16:18	lancepantz	yep :)
16:47	devn	hmmm, this context.io thing is cool
17:05	lancepantz	devn: link?
17:11	TimMc	I'm pretty sure Clojure is informally specified, though.
17:22	devn	lancepantz: http://context.io
17:22	devn	now i just need to figure out how to use clj-oauth :X
17:24	lancepantz	that is pretty sweet
17:25	devn	lancepantz: wanna help me figure out how the hell to use clj-oauth with it? :)
17:25	lancepantz	not right now, ninjudd would kill me :P
17:25	devn	haha
17:38	mec	when/why can you use ^:static? its a hard thing to search about
17:39	brehaut	mec: i might be waaay off track here, but i thought :static vars as an option was discarded in favour of :dynamic as an option
17:40	mec	no idea, im not very familiar with 1.3 changes
17:41	dnolen	mec: ^:static was a temporary idea on the way to the current state of 1.3
17:44	mec	its still looks pretty common in core.clj
17:44	dnolen	mec: it's a no-op now. doesn't do anything.
17:45	dnolen	mec: default is static, no need to specify ^:static anymore.
17:45	mec	ah ok
17:47	hiredman	not true
17:47	hiredman	the default is not :Static
17:47	dnolen	hiredman: ?
17:47	hiredman	:static
17:47	hiredman	the default is just less dynamic
17:48	hiredman	I wish people would stop saying that
17:48	dnolen	hiredman: ^:static had other connotations yes, doesn't really matter much now anyhow.
17:48	hiredman	I specificly asked rickhickey about it durring the q&a at the conj so he would say they are not the same in the hope that people would stop saying they were
17:51	mec	so what are they?
17:51	dnolen	hiredman: hmm, oh yeah ^:static was only about fns, dynamic is about vars.
17:51	dnolen	mec: really it's not worth thinking about too much, main point is ^:static is irrelevant.
17:51	hiredman	:static did away with indirection through vars completely
17:52	dnolen	mec: in general ^:static wasn't that cool, had issues w/ protocols and redefinition.
17:56	seancorfield	dnolen: are you saying that in 1.3.0-alpha6 you don't have to mark a fn ^:static in order for it to be compiled to a java static (and use primitive arguments)?
17:57	seancorfield	or are you just saying it's irrelevant for vars?
17:57	dnolen	seancorfield: ^:static is just irrelevant now. fn's have direct support for primitive arg & return.
17:57	hiredman	seancorfield: :static has nothing to do with java static
18:00	devn	is it just me or is there nothing already built to handle https?
18:02	technomancy	,(clojure.java.shell/sh "gnutls-cli" [...])
18:02	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: ... in this context
18:02	technomancy	bugger.
18:03	hiredman	devn: it's you
18:05	seancorfield	dnolen: lots of clojure.core still has ^:static annotations... is that just leftover from when it mattered?
18:05	dnolen	seancorfield: yeah.
18:09	dnolen	seancorfield: some context here, http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-10-18.html
18:10	dnolen	seancorfield: context for the old way (^:static) here, http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-06-07.html
18:12	devn	hiredman: any pointers?
18:13	seancorfield	thanx for the links dnolen - it's hard to keep up, sometimes!
18:17	dnolen	devn: seems to me like the good Clojure http clients have some sort of https support. clj-http, clj-apache-http
18:18	pyr	0/clear
18:22	Raynes	devn: 'Course not! That'd be productive. Can't have that. ;)
18:23	TimMc	I've been experiencing a number of frustrating debugging sessions where I end up chasing down bad values that propagate through my function calls before triggering some irrelevant error message.
18:24	TimMc	What's the best way to add some early bogon detection to my code?
18:24	technomancy	preconditions?
18:24	TimMc	(I've had misnamed :keywords in maps, the wrong data structure being passed in, etc.)
18:26	dnolen	TimMc: I agree w/ technomancy, pre/postconditions are useful.
18:26	TimMc	Preconditions... those would be ugly if I'm checking the validity of maps.
18:26	TimMc	Are defrecords recommended for ensuring that all the right slots are filled in a data structure?
18:27	dnolen	TimMc: preconditions can be any old function. I usually define validators somewhere.
18:28	alelos	hey guys, whats my best bet for creating matrices and maybe doing some matrix operations? incanter?
18:28	dnolen	TimMc: defrecord generally need a ctor fn, that ctor will need to do some kind of validation.
18:28	TimMc	dnolen: And then check that each argument is the appropriate record type? (I guess type hints will help with that.)
18:29	dnolen	TimMc: type hints don't guarantee anything.
18:29	dnolen	TimMc: https://gist.github.com/926381 is something I've done before in my own code.
18:29	TimMc	I know. But they'll sure as hell throw the right kind of fuss when the cast goes wrong.
18:30	technomancy	not really
18:31	TimMc	technomancy: Expand?
18:31	technomancy	pretty sure if the type hint is wrong it will just fall back to reflection.
18:32	TimMc	I recall it throwing.
18:32	brehaut	TimMc: i think you are being tricked by the interop
18:32	brehaut	,((fn [^String foo] foo) [1 2 3])
18:32	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
18:33	brehaut	,((fn [^String foo] (.replace foo "a" "b")) [1 2 3])
18:33	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.String
18:33	dnolen	TimMc: type-hints are only about controlling reflection, not much else.
18:33	brehaut	the exception comes from .replace, not the type hint
18:33	TimMc	Sure, but I would be calling .methods on these things anyway.
18:34	TimMc	Anywho, preconditions would work.
18:34	TimMc	Thanks for the tips.
18:36	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/26d6a42bde8944290501
18:42	TimMc	(It doesn't help that I keep getting my damn unit tests wrong.)
18:48	TimMc	hiredman: Was that for me?
18:48	dnolen	hiredman: very interesting, tho quite a bit slower than just using destructuring + :pre at least for the kinds of examples you've shown.
18:50	hiredman	dnolen: I don't recall making any claims of performance
21:01	mec	Are there any other generators of chunked seqs besides range?
21:02	brehaut	mec: vector
21:10	mec	was there some way to temporarily disable chunks or am I remembering wrong?
21:11	amalloy	mec: iirc the best way is currently to create a new manual lazy-seq around them
21:11	amalloy	there's an example of that in JoC
21:11	mec	Ya I saw that, I just swear i remember something like chunked-seqs that could temporarily turn them off
21:50	tufflax	Welcome to Critique my fn! http://pastebin.com/agxEYdVm :P It doesn't feel quite right to have ps grow like that, hm...
21:54	mec	tufflax: if you just want primes one already exists, otherwise without looking in depth yet you should put lazy-seq elsewhere: https://gist.github.com/926654
21:56	mec	Otherwise it will find the next prime before you actually want it
21:57	amalloy	mec: worse than that. i don't think it returns anything lazily: the cons is inside the lazy-seq
21:58	amalloy	well, i guess that's not true. feh
21:58	mec	ya i think it'll just run until it hits the lazy-seq, doing the computation before hand
21:58	amalloy	i was thinking the recursive base case never gets hit, but lazy-seq does intervene
21:59	amalloy	it's just harder to visualize for me, when the cons is inside the lazy-seq
21:59	tufflax	hmm, so you're saying it generates one more element than it needs to?
22:00	mec	no it just does the computation for the next element, so: 2 calc 3, 3 calc 4, 4 calc 5. instead of full lazy: 2, calc3 3, calc4 4, calc5 5
22:00	tufflax	amalloy isn't the cons supposed to be inside? i don't understand
22:01	amalloy	tufflax: if you're rolling your own, the general pattern is like (cons foo (lazy-seq ...))
22:01	amalloy	this gets you the element you've computed immediately, and attaches the remainder of the computation lazily
22:02	amalloy	but i think i'm oversimplifying in ways that make what i say unuseful
22:03	tufflax	hm, well mec's is also inside https://gist.github.com/926654
22:03	amalloy	tufflax: kinda-sorta. this is the simplification i referred to. it's very deep inside, so that it's very much like the cons is wrapping the lazy-seq generated by the next invocation of primes
22:04	mec	if you unroll mine the call to (primes [2] 3), the first statement is lazy-seq so you get: (cons 2 (lazy-seq ...))
22:05	mec	tufflax: https://gist.github.com/926654
22:08	tufflax	oh yeah... but mine just does one calc ahead ro
22:08	tufflax	right
22:10	mec	actually you can simplify away the if-let + when, check the gist again
22:11	tufflax	got disced after your <mec> tufflax: https://gist.github.com/926654
22:12	mec	I just said you can simplify away the if-let + when
22:14	tufflax	so as I was saying: mine just does one calc "too much" right?
22:14	mec	ya if you (take 10 primes) it will calculate for 11
22:15	mec	also, since you have to hold onto the head anyway, you can completely get rid of ps
22:16	mec	tufflax: refresh the gist for that change
22:27	tufflax	interesting... :)
22:32	tufflax	thanks mec, amalloy_ i knew i would learn something by asking for critique :)
22:33	mec	tufflax: np, i love tweaking code ;p
22:35	tufflax	clojure is so much more fun than java, i never wanna touch java again :p
23:01	TimMc	,(type (#()))
23:01	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
23:01	TimMc	That's amusing.
23:02	mec	thats weird
23:03	TimMc	(#()) -> ()
23:03	mec	,'#()
23:03	clojurebot	(fn* [] ())