#clojure – 2011-04-08

2011-04-08

00:00	livingston	eh, I got enough of what I need, more or less
00:02	Raynes	livingston: Opening it up in a text editor usually works for me.
00:03	livingston	Raynes: yeah I did I saw enough, I mostly wanted to verify what method signatures were there. then I confirmed it by importing the class into my repl and calling show on it.
00:08	mec	anyone know how to disable the automatic stack trace on exception in emacs?
00:09	livingston	mec: why? (in slime?)
00:09	mec	because 99% of the time just printing the exception to the repl would be fine
00:10	livingston	oh you mean you want it to just automatically hit '0' for you?
00:12	livingston	i'm sure if there isn't a setting for that, you could probably write some elisp to catch that buffer and just send it a '0' as input.
00:13	Havvy	My output is a lazy-seq and (doall) isn't removing the lazyness. :(
00:14	Havvy	Hmm, might be the placement of the (doall)
00:15	mec	Im sure I saw a setting somewhere that enabled the stack trace, I just cant find it again
00:32	Havvy	(str (interpose " " ["nick:"
00:32	Havvy	nick-lower "cmd:" cmd-lower "params:" parameters-lower]
00:32	Havvy	,(str (interpose " " ["nick:"
00:32	clojurebot	EOF while reading
00:32	Havvy	nick-lower "cmd:" cmd-lower "params:" parameters-lower]))
00:33	Havvy	,(str (interpose " " ["nick:" "cmd:"]))
00:33	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@73ee01f6"
00:33	mec	,(apply str (interpose " " ["nick:" "cmd:"]))
00:33	clojurebot	"nick: cmd:"
00:34	Havvy	Why do you apply?
00:35	mec	,[(str [1 2 3]) (apply str [1 2 3])]
00:35	clojurebot	["[1 2 3]" "123"]
00:35	Havvy	Oh.
00:35	livingston	so if I'm calling some clj from java with something like this: ((IFn)RT.var("clojure.core", "println").deref()).invoke("Hello World");
00:36	livingston	but I want to call my own function in another ns that hasn't been loaded yet, how do I load it... I'm assuming there a function on RT?
00:40	Havvy	So, (or (= var 1) (= var 2)) and (#{1 2} var) are equivalent?
00:42	mec	yes
00:43	Havvy	Sweet.
00:46	mec	ok so it looks like i need to disable sldb any idea where that setting might be?
00:48	livingston	Havvy: if that's all you were doing and those are constants the first is greatly preferred
00:49	livingston	first you're not created a set, and second, your intensions as a coder are clearer. unless you actually have a set of numbers you're testing against.
00:55	dnolen	Havvy: livingston: the second version is three times faster.
00:56	livingston	how can that be?
00:58	dnolen	livingston: sorry it depends. if the data doesn't match often 2nd version quicker. depending on the number of tests (each a fn call), 2nd version faster.
00:59	mec	checking against a set is just a hash table lookup
00:59	dnolen	in anycase, 2nd version is plenty idiomatic.
01:00	livingston	the second version is hashing too... there's no way. that hash table would have many items I would think. if you're talking find in a linked-list verus a hash-table, usually you have to get up 10's of things before the hashtable wins. I don't know if there is something sneaky under the hood of clj for small sets
01:01	mec	I cant for the life of me figure out where swank-clojure actually hooks exception handling into sldb
01:02	dnolen	livingston: in an or test you have multiple fn calls. a hash look up 1 call.
01:02	mec	i believe small sets may use lists, at least clojure specifically says it changes underlying types sometimes for speed
01:06	dnolen	,(type #{1 2})
01:06	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
01:06	dnolen	,(type {1 2})
01:06	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
01:07	dnolen	,(type (into {} (map vec (partition 2 (range 32)))))
01:07	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
01:27	amalloy	i guess livingston is gone by now, but if someone else wanted to look into a compiled java .class file, javap is a good builtin
01:41	hiredman	I've been thinking of writing some to take clojure class file and print it out as pseudo clojure code
01:42	hiredman	but javap works well
01:50	tomoj	hostname
01:50	tomoj	oops
01:55	bartj	I see that the title-case function of c.c.str-utils2 is not implemented
01:55	bartj	how do I go about submitting an implementation ?
01:56	brehaut	bartj: well, old contrib is no longer being maintained
01:56	bartj	oh
01:56	brehaut	bartj: otherwise you need to have signed the contributer agreement and then should post to the dev mailing list
01:57	brehaut	the maintainer of the package (or someone equally authoritive) will tell you the next step
01:57	bartj	I think it is Sierra
01:59	amalloy	isn't str-utils2 basically EOLed anyway?
01:59	brehaut	it seems likely
02:00	bartj	EOLed ?
02:00	brehaut	end of life
02:00	bartj	end of life ?
02:00	bartj	deprecated ?
02:00	amalloy	i think book authors should say "use this library, which at some point in the future will surely be deprecated"
02:00	bartj	ok, there are some useful functions in str-utils/str-utils2
02:01	bartj	which seem to be missing in clojure.string
02:01	amalloy	bartj: a lot of those got promoted to clojure.core
02:01	amalloy	er
02:01	amalloy	clojure.string
02:02	amalloy	i like c.c.string, personally, but it's deprecated and that's just tough luck. there are good reasons, like not working well for non-english languages, i'm sure
02:02	bartj	hmm, ok; so I gather it is not worth the effort in this case
02:02	bartj	thanks
02:39	seancorfield_	i rely on c.c.sql so i want to see that promoted to core :)
02:40	amalloy	seancorfield_: tried clojureql?
02:41	seancorfield_	yeah, but i haven't really settled into it yet
02:42	seancorfield_	i think i prefer the c.c.sql approach to be honest
02:42	markoman	anyone recall the site that had a good list of things you should know before running Clojure?
02:43	markoman	it talked about installing, lein, ides and so forth
02:43	markoman	short article / blog post
02:44	seancorfield_	http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started ?
02:47	markoman	it wasnt that. it was more oriented for people who know almost nothing about clojure and what they would expect to face when learning it
02:47	seancorfield_	amalloy: my concern with clojureql is that it builds a representation of that then needs to be translated to sql (each time)... and i'm actually trying to get away from sql abstractions at the moment :)
02:48	seancorfield_	markoman: hmm, then i've no idea... but i'd like to read it if someone figures out which page it is :)
02:49	seancorfield_	i could do with more such references to feed to friends that i want to convert to clojure!
03:05	markoman	right, i bookmarked too much sites last week and some i didnt, so im messed with all information at the moment myself :)
03:08	markoman	dont you think lein is very easy? just load the script on bin directory, run it and lein repl and there you go?
03:16	amalloy	markoman: it sure is!
03:39	seancorfield_	markoman: oh, i love leiningen... that's my build tool of choice... i wish CCW respected it better :)
03:40	markoman	i have added some custon tasks/targets on lein, but im not sure, if I can get them on IntelliJ Lein panel like the default targets are there visible and usable as single clicks
03:40	markoman	or double clicks maybe
04:08	ejackson	Salwe.
04:12	amalloy	hey ejackson, fliebel was looking for you, in search of an airplane quote
04:13	ejackson	lol. Not surprisingly netjets figured I was a joker. I'm going to try again.
04:13	amalloy	hahaha
04:13	ejackson	they can smell time rich, money poor over the phone
04:14	amalloy	$mail fliebel netjets thinks ejackson is a wacko. he's trying again. next time you're looking for him, utilize sexpbot to $mail him instead of wandering away :)
04:14	sexpbot	Message saved.
04:15	ejackson	,(conj long-list-of-people-who-thingk-ejackson-is-a-wacko netjets)
04:15	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: long-list-of-people-who-thingk-ejackson-is-a-wacko in this context
04:46	cuvavu	Hi
04:47	cuvavu	Is anyone using appengine-magic successfully with eclipse and ccw?
04:52	markoman	i have tried but couldnt
04:53	markoman	then i tried netbeans, didnt work too good and finally IntelliJ which has been working best in my case
05:00	markoman	they have a google group for support
05:07	markoman	what should I know when using lein pom to publish my jar to clojars?
05:09	markoman	and can i use lein to upload something to clojars?
05:13	cuvavu	what is their google group?
05:14	cuvavu	I've found a general web-apps one - is there one for appengine-magic itself?
05:20	ejackson	anybody else lost doc in swank with 1.3.0 ?
05:24	amalloy	markoman: lein push
05:24	markoman	cuvavu: https://groups.google.com/group/clojuredev-users
05:25	markoman	i havent found any group for magic thou...
05:25	amalloy	cuvavu: i just saw constantine today, he said he follows the webdev list
05:25	cuvavu	thanks, both of you :)
05:26	markoman	amalloy: i used the command from clojars scp, but when i try to get project on other machine i get a lot of errors about missing artifacts, maven and such...
05:27	amalloy	markoman: the information content in that statement, with regard to how someone could help you debug it, is zero
05:29	markoman	i think its a very common... oh my mistake, typo going on. it worked fine
05:35	markoman	when I create and use project.clj with lein, can I specify :main to point to my jar lib instead of src dir?
06:13	markoman	amalloy: for some reason i dont have push task on lein...
06:21	clgv	markoman: then I'd guess it's a plugin/extension ;)
06:32	markoman	clgv: very much so ;)
06:43	Borkdude	what is the appropriate way to end a "lein repl" or "lein swank"?
06:44	Borkdude	with (System/exit 0) I get some exceptions
06:44	clgv	ctrl+d`
06:44	Borkdude	in Windows?
06:45	clgv	in linux.
06:45	Borkdude	ah yes
06:45	clojurebot	No entiendo
06:45	Borkdude	in Windows it also works
06:45	clgv	it means end of file if I remember correctly
06:45	fliebel	Borkdude: By any chance IndexOutOfBounds?
06:46	Borkdude	with "lein swank" it doesn't work though
06:46	Borkdude	but then I can do "ctrl-C" to end the batch-file
06:47	Borkdude	fliebel: Exception in thread "Thread-3" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.net.SocketExcept ion: Connection reset
06:56	fliebel	Does anyone know the state of this thing? https://github.com/hoeck/clojurebox2d It seems at least pre-lein and tied to clj-processing, which are not desirable for me. I do like to have wrapper for JBox2D.
06:58	hoeck	fliebel: maybe write your own jbox2d wrapper, its not that hard anyway
07:00	fliebel	hoeck: Yea, I'll see what happens. I was just surfing around. Would you say it's harder to beat this into shape than write my own wrapper?
07:12	hoeck	fliebel: depends on your goals, https://github.com/hoeck/clojurebox2d/blob/master/hoeck/clojurebox2d/jbox2d.clj and utils are the main namespaces for jbox2d wrapping action, and they do not depend on clj-processing
07:13	hoeck	fliebel: unfortunately, I had to write my own iteration macro, because jbox2ds c++ heritage, many things are done by mapping/filtering java arrays, and I don't want to use lazy-seqs for that in the main loop
07:14	hoeck	if you're okay with the tradeoffs taken and the look of the interface, then its easier to beat this into shape
07:15	fliebel	hoeck: I see. Well, the goal is to have some more interesting stuff for my game engine. Right now I have collisions based on java.awt.Rectangle. This is all fine, but I was looking around if there was a simple way to get some more advanced stuff.
07:15	hoeck	using another backend for drawing is not a big deal
07:16	fliebel	Okay, so this is really 3 layers of duck tape. Running C++ code in Clojure via Java does not sound very ideomatic :)
07:16	hoeck	not c++, but c++ translated to java
07:17	fliebel	Same thing.
07:18	hoeck	leads to lots of set!s https://github.com/hoeck/clojurebox2d/blob/master/hoeck/clojurebox2d/jbox2d.clj
07:19	hoeck	but is fast and humble on resources, more things for clojure to spend, like using multimethods for object collision :)
07:20	hoeck	fliebel: if you already have a game engine, I ca extract all the jbox related stuff from clojurebox2d and make it a separate lib (if you're interested)
07:23	fliebel	hoeck: Well, I don't know. I don't need the physics right now, but I guess I'll need them later anyway. Game engine is a big word btw, I have a game loop and some drawing, animation and collision stuff.
07:26	fliebel	So, no, not right now.
07:28	fliebel	This is also an option(DIY): http://www.wildbunny.co.uk/blog/2011/04/06/physics-engines-for-dummies/
07:29	hoeck	fliebel: right, and given all the new clojure capabilities (native ints, mutable deftypes), it may even perform well
07:30	fliebel	hoeck: I think you have to go pretty far in 2D for anything not to perform well.
07:33	fliebel	Actually, the only thing I had to do for smooth animations is changing the GC. Besides that it renders more frames than is useful for anything else than stress-testing.
07:35	fliebel	hoeck: I don't think we're supposed to use mutable deftypes for anything other than implementing Clojure in Clojure.
07:38	choffstein	I have a question. Is there a rule of thumb in clojure for knowing what goes first ... the 'subject' or the 'object'. e.g. (assoc hash key value) vs (cons element list). In the first, the object that the function is acting on comes first. In the latter, the object comes last. I find this sort of confusing and was wondering if there was a good way to remember it.
07:41	fliebel	&(println (subs (:doc (meta #'deftype)) 1043 1241))
07:41	sexpbot	⟹ Note well that mutable fields are extremely difficult to use correctly, and are present only to facilitate the building of higher level constructs, such as Clojure's reference types, in Clojure nil
07:43	fliebel	choffstein: I think the object comes first in most cases. The way I think about it is "what would make the most sense grammatically, or using partial"
07:44	fliebel	&(map (partial nth 3) [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])
07:44	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
07:44	fliebel	facepalm
07:45	choffstein	fliebel: hmm, okay.
07:45	fliebel	So, there are weird cases, but most of the time, it makes sense when you use partial and ->
07:46	choffstein	Alright. I'll try to keep that in mind. Time to jump on a plane. Have a wonderful day :)
07:48	fliebel	Does anyone have a more consistent view on these things?
08:06	hoeck	fliebel: re physics engines and deftypes: I would consider this as an excuse to use (thread confined) mutation of primitives and arrays :)
08:06	fliebel	hoeck: Maybe, but I see that as an optimization rout when, and only when I run into performance troubles.
08:08	fliebel	I'm not even using transients right now, while that would probably make the inner game loop a lot faster, it rules out any multithreading, and everyone I spoke to agreed it was bad style to expose transients to the outer world.
08:13	clgv	fliebel: you can't even expose transients to the outer world since in fact you cant read them only add to or change them
08:13	clgv	so the "exposing scenario" is extremely limited
08:14	fliebel	clgv: What do you mean by "can't read"?
08:14	clgv	hmm well, I might have to correct, what I experienced is that they are not seq-able.
08:15	clgv	I didnt try to use nth or something
08:15	fliebel	true, but you can get stuff from them, and update-in! (not in core)
08:16	clgv	ok nth works
08:16	clgv	so it's "only" the seq-able property but which is a huge show-stopper for elegant code on exposed transients ;)
08:17	clgv	I avoided doing that as result of that experiments ;)
08:18	fliebel	very true.
08:18	clgv	but knowing that nth works I might do a performance experiment some time later ;)
08:19	fliebel	So how fast is it to become a transient? Is it just a flag? Because I read it's constant-time.
08:20	clgv	well usually I started with empty transient collections
08:20	clgv	guess thats pretty much constant time ;)
08:20	fliebel	Because idk, the implementor might decide to use a transient during his modifications.
08:20	fliebel	&(doc transient)
08:20	sexpbot	⟹ "([coll]); Alpha - subject to change. Returns a new, transient version of the collection, in constant time."
08:21	fliebel	I'll have to track that call down into clojure.lang sometime.
08:21	clgv	:)
08:22	fliebel	wow
08:28	fliebel	clgv: My game engine accidentally almost does not care if you use a vector or a map for the game state. I'm not sure how useful that is, but I'm considering going the full 100% now and make it work.
08:29	clgv	you have to point out the coolness aspect and its implications for the coffee-drained clgv ;)
08:31	fliebel	clgv: Well, imagine all sorts of things happening to the game state, like iterating over it and drawing it to the screen, or checking if 2 things collide. And it's written in such a way that it almost does not matter if I get just a val or a MapEntry.
08:33	fliebel	What I did is that I extended MapEntry to the protocol of my game objects, to save me from some destructuring. This means I can do (function MapEntry args) and it will transparently invoke that on its val.
08:37	clgv	ah kk. I did that for my improved clojure inspector ;)
08:37	fliebel	clojure inspector?
08:38	clgv	original: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.inspector-api.html
08:38	clgv	I build upon the inspect-table function
08:38	clgv	to support map entries better and atoms and refs at all
08:39	clgv	and realized parts of infinite lazy collections ;)
08:42	clgv	oh I was wrong: I used inspect-tree as startpoint
08:48	fliebel	Hey, you Swing! Why are you beating my ref to death? RetryEx clojure.lang.LockingTransaction
08:52	AWizzArd	fliebel: what do you mean? Do you code something with Swing?
08:53	fliebel	AWizzArd: Yea, I have an event listener update a ref, but it gives me exceptions.
08:55	fliebel	The strange thing is that it is the only place that writes to it. Or… wait, maybe I just need to restart my repl.
08:55	fliebel	no...
08:56	fliebel	It used to work, but not anymore. A deref can never ever retry a transaction, can it?
08:57	AWizzArd	A deref outside of a dosync?
08:57	fliebel	yea
08:57	fliebel	no..
08:57	fliebel	wait… this is all really weird stuff happening here :P
08:57	AWizzArd	A read outside should not force a transaction to retry.
08:58	fliebel	yes, outside, but it does not matter.
09:00	fliebel	w-wait… D'oh! I :reload-all'd the thing, which must have caused the thing to have registered 2 listeners or something.
09:01	stuartsierra	yeah, that kind of thing can happen
09:02	clgv	fliebel: but eventhandler should be sequential in the swing gui thread, shouldnt they?
09:03	fliebel	clgv: I'd say so, but still, not loading the event thing twice solved it.
09:04	clgv	fliebel: maybe they introduced a swing threadpool sometime...
09:05	fliebel	btw, in a dosync with but a single statement, is it useful to use commute? Because the change is communicative, but using commute will execute it twice.
09:09	clgv	are there any java-only implementations for console guis?
09:32	raek	Charva looks nice... I should use it some time (http://www.pitman.co.za/projects/charva/Screenshots.html)
09:32	raek	it's not pure java, though...
09:32	fliebel	You know what would be cool? A generic JSR 323(whatever; scripting bridge) REPL. So you could do any JVM lang on the REPL.
09:34	AWizzArd	fliebel: you can provide this from within Clojure.
09:34	fliebel	AWizzArd: How?
09:34	AWizzArd	(change-to-repl :jython)
09:36	fliebel	AWizzArd: Okay, and now back?
09:44	fliebel	oh! http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/tools/share/jrunscript.html
09:46	fliebel	and https://github.com/pmf/clojure-jsr223 and http://java.net/projects/scripting/sources/svn/show/trunk/engines?rev=236
09:48	AWizzArd	fliebel: this python-repl would be programmed in Clojure. You just sit in a loop/recur, and it runs the code via jython.
09:48	AWizzArd	In that repl however you won't have the clojure reader macros etc.
10:03	angerman	does anyone speak sapnish?
10:03	clgv	never done sap ;)
10:03	fliebel	does anyone know aleph?
10:03	fliebel	how many roads must a man walk down?
10:03	angerman	fliebel: that's the async server, no?
10:04	fliebel	angerman: What I meant is, ask your question :)
10:04	angerman	fliebel: I'm in need of a tiny translation (en->es) "Lock to Point" or "Lock to Here"
10:05	ejackson	angerman: now you're pushing the linguistic boundary...
10:05	angerman	https://img.skitch.com/20110406-qds7h4efuy6682y5eadrmwkd2y.png
10:05	angerman	ejackson: of course! :D
10:05	fliebel	ejackson: Hey, how is the jet stuff going?
10:06	ejackson	fliebel: netjets are studiously ignoring me
10:06	angerman	ejackson: weird thing is, even though I am German and live in Europe, I have more easy access to asian languages then to european… :/
10:06	ejackson	is there context for your query ?
10:06	ejackson	I'm tracking down a spaniard for you
10:07	angerman	ejackson: see the iamge
10:07	angerman	https://img.skitch.com/20110406-qds7h4efuy6682y5eadrmwkd2y.png
10:07	ejackson	ummm.... what ?
10:07	angerman	if enabled, the first few digits to the blue bar are greyed out and will stay even when the field is cleared
10:08	ejackson	ok
10:08	angerman	idea is that if you have a bunch of euro notes in succession (e.g. with near continuous serial numbers), you might want to "lock" the first few, because they will always be the same.
10:09	ejackson	gotcha
10:09	angerman	And only the last two, three or what ever change :)
10:11	fliebel	ejackson: Ignore? They think you are mocking theme because you don't talk with a big cigar on the phone?
10:11	ejackson	yeah, they can tell i sound poor
10:12	clgv	how can I used destructuring in a function signature to refer to the parameters by name and as a vector as well?
10:12	angerman	?! lol emendio got mentioned in a russion document about clojure use.
10:13	angerman	clgv: doesn't :keys … :as work_
10:14	clgv	I guess :as could work. but I dont know whether it works outside that map with :keys
10:14	fliebel	ejackson: So the trick is to sound rich. don't ask "How much?" but say "I want a plane, sent me a quote please" O even "my boss wants…" :P
10:14	ejackson	oh no, I went even more hardcore
10:14	fliebel	tell me :)
10:15	ejackson	we're holding our company retreat, and I was thinking as a bonus for their hard work I'd fly the employees out
10:16	ejackson	angerman: my best guess is "fijar de aqui"
10:16	ejackson	where fijar is 'to fix'
10:16	ejackson	(or at least my hive mind tells me that is a good guess)
10:17	pdk	arreglar
10:17	pdk	fijarse de X = to notice X
10:17	angerman	ejackson: thanks.
10:17	fliebel	ejackson: Google Translate agrees more or less.
10:18	ejackson	better find you a real spaniard though :)
10:18	ejackson	pdk: cool
10:18	angerman	ejackson: if it's wrong I hope at least one spaniard will complain with a better translatioN :D
10:18	ejackson	i like it.
10:18	pdk	what are we translating, i didnt catch it
10:18	ejackson	'lock to here' or 'fix to here'
10:18	fliebel	https://img.skitch.com/20110406-qds7h4efuy6682y5eadrmwkd2y.png
10:19	angerman	wow guys you are great… (and faster then I am… :D)
10:19	pdk	like
10:19	pdk	to affix something to a spot?
10:19	pdk	or to lock something into a socket etc
10:19	angerman	pdk: pressing that button will grey out the first digits up to the blue vertical line.
10:20	fliebel	Maybe someone needs to launch #lazyI18n on Twitter.
10:20	angerman	if the field is cleared, only the part that is not "fixed" (grey) is cleard.
10:21	pdk	hm
10:21	pdk	in that case fijar would prob work
10:21	pdk	fijar desde aquí
10:22	angerman	pdk, google translate sais desde would be "from"… and it's intention is "to"
10:23	angerman	e.g. the first digits are locked, not the last.
10:23	pdk	hasta then
10:23	ejackson	hasta la vista, BABY !
10:23	pdk	de/desde would convey from
10:23	pdk	a = to, at
10:23	pdk	hasta would convey "up to"
10:24	angerman	pdk: fijar hasta aqui then, I assume.
10:24	pdk	yeah i'd go with that
10:24	pdk	note aquí though
10:25	angerman	aqu? google keeps on correcting me it's aqui… confused.
10:25	pdk	acute accent over the I
10:26	pdk	irc kicks ass so it probably dropped the accented I
10:26	_fogus_	nick fogus`
10:27	angerman	pdk, ahh thanks
10:27	ejackson	fogus`: why with all the decorators ?
10:27	ejackson	what do they denote ?
10:28	ejackson	is _fogus_ dynamically scoped ?
10:28	pdk	they denote STYLE BABY
10:28	ejackson	lol
10:28	ejackson	no wonder i don't get it
10:29	fliebel	I know my client gets me fliebel1 when I log off an on real quick, and I've also seen people use a _ when they are away, such as amalloy_.
10:30	fogus`	ejackson: Someone else took fogus on freenode.
10:31	cemerick	there's more than one?
10:31	fliebel	ejackson's gone
10:31	fogus`	cemerick: Apparently. Weird huh?
10:31	fliebel	fogus`: Did you try talking to him?
10:33	cemerick	what is a fliebel, anyway?
10:33	fogus`	fliebel: I did, but he never responds. He's also squatting my Last.fm name
10:35	fliebel	cemerick: Dunno, but wait… Nope, my dictionary does not know either. I think me and my friends made that up a long time ago to mean 'something'
10:36	fliebel	but more specifically something dangling loose like a shoe tie or whatever.
10:51	Dantas	hi everyone !! using the map function over a map data structure (map f {:a 0, :b 1} ) . what is suppose to be the arguments passed through the function (f ) inside the map ?
10:51	pdk	,(seq {1 2 3 4})
10:51	clojurebot	([1 2] [3 4])
10:52	devn	hello all
10:52	pdk	each pair in the map is going to be passed to f in a vector [key value]
10:52	ejackson	dantas: kv pairs
10:52	Dantas	pdk: ejackson : Thanks a lot !
10:53	jweiss_	anyone have problem with swank-clojure to list callers using C-c C-w c, gets "Error in process filter: wrong type argument: char-or-string-p, nil"?
10:53	ejackson	,(map (fn [[k v]] v) {:a 0, :b 1} )
10:53	ejackson	hmm.
10:53	clojurebot	(0 1)
10:53	ejackson	$(map (fn [[k v]] v) {:a 0, :b 1} )
10:54	ejackson	hmmm... the bots scorn me today
10:54	Dantas	exacly, I thought it was a sub map ! thanks a lot
10:54	ejackson	,(map (fn [[k v]] k) {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2})
10:54	clojurebot	(:a :b :c)
10:55	pdk	,(type (seq {1 2 3 4}))
10:55	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap$Seq
10:59	raek	'for' and destructuring can be very useful too: ##(for [[k v] {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2}] (inc v))
10:59	sexpbot	⟹ (1 2 3)
11:01	Dantas	ejackson: watching the pdk expression (type (seq {1 2 3 4})) i did the same to a list . is list a sequence ?
11:02	Dantas	,type(seq '(1 2 3))
11:02	clojurebot	#<core$type clojure.core$type@11c1cdf>
11:02	Dantas	,(type(seq '(1 2 3) ) )
11:02	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
11:02	pdk	sequences are an abstraction over all four basic collection types
11:02	pdk	lists/vectors/sets/maps
11:02	pdk	and strings
11:04	Dantas	pdk, yeah . a interface , right ?
11:04	ejackson	sequences can be thought of a bit as like iterators... they're not, but its a nice crutch.
11:04	stuartsierra	A list is the only Clojure data structure that is its own sequence.
11:04	ejackson	lists, vectors, maps are concrete data structures
11:04	raek	lists are their own seqs
11:04	ejackson	a sequence is not
11:04	ejackson	(as far as i understand these things)
11:05	Dantas	pdf, but for a map the type is a nested class form the map - clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap$Seq
11:06	raek	,(isa? clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap$Seq clojure.lang.ISeq)
11:06	clojurebot	true
11:07	raek	Dantas: yes, it's an interface
11:07	Dantas	thanks all !!
11:17	mefesto	Hey everyone. I have a leiningen project that has both clojure and java sources. When generating a pom file (lein pom) the result does not include the java source path. Is this a known problem or am I doing something wrong?
11:18	fliebel	mefesto: I think you need lein-javac
11:18	fliebel	Or cake
11:18	mefesto	fliebel: lein-javac will generate a different pom file?
11:19	fliebel	mefesto: I don't know. I've only heard you need that to compile java files.
11:19	mefesto	fliebel: leiningen is building the project correctly it's just the pom file that doesn't include the java src path
11:20	fliebel	oh, okay, don't know then.
11:20	mefesto	the only reason I care about the pom file is so I can seemlessly use netbeans for the gui form building portion and use emacs for general coding
11:21	mefesto	i could just give in and use netbeans clojure support but i just figured if lein pom included the java source path then it wouldn't matter
11:22	fogus`	How might one defer a test with clojure.test?
11:23	raek	mefesto: are you using the latest version of leiningen?
11:23	mefesto	raek: Leiningen 1.5.0 on Java 1.6.0_22 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
11:25	raek	mefesto: does the pom.xml need to contain the source paths? I have one which lacks those...
11:26	mefesto	raek: yeah for this project to work in netbeans. perhaps my setup is hoakey but I only use netbeans for the gui forms which are stored as java sources (plus some form type type)
11:27	trptcolin	fogus`: if you're running w/ leiningen you can tag them w/ metadata & use test-selectors to only run the ones you're interested in
11:28	fogus`	trptcolin: Anyway w/o Lein?
11:29	mefesto	my project layout is like this: http://pastie.org/1772379
11:29	trptcolin	not that i know of aside from commenting them out :)
11:29	mefesto	I'd like to consolidate the myapp-client and myapp-client-ui into a single leiningen project
11:29	fogus`	trptcolin: Seems like a useful feature. :-(
11:30	mefesto	myapp-client-ui only contains the netbeans swing forms which myapp-client depends on. I'm open to other approaches :)
11:33	raek	mefesto: I would recommend asking on the lein mail list. the java source path missing sounds like an easy to fix bug to me, and I know that technomancy makes new releases quite often
11:34	mefesto	raek: Will do. Thanks
12:06	technomancy	mefesto: it's an unintended omission; go ahead and open an issue on github for it
12:06	technomancy	mefesto: if you can get a patch in for it, that would help it happen more quickly; otherwise I'll try to be sure it makes it into 1.5.1
12:09	thickey	p.s. food
12:09	thickey	p.p.s BEER
12:09	thickey	lol, sry
12:26	jweiss_	having a little trouble with destructuring - can :keys maps be nested?
12:27	jweiss_	i am not quite sure what (defn g [{:keys [a b c {:keys [d e]} z]}] [a b c d e z]) will be interpreted as
12:27	jweiss_	i can't seem to call it so that the d e or z are non-nil
12:28	raek	jweiss_: you can't use :keys like that. :keys is the shortcut for the case when you want to bind the symbol foo to the value associated with :foo.
12:29	jweiss_	raek: ok. is it me or does the doc here http://clojure.org/special_forms#toc4 not consistent about whether you need the :as keyword?
12:30	jweiss_	is it that if no other keywords are specified, :as is assumed?
12:30	raek	jweiss_: {a :a, b :b, c :c, {d :d, e :e} :z}
12:30	raek	or {:keys [a b c], {:keys [d e]} :z}
12:30	raek	:as is used when you want to call the whole map something
12:31	jweiss_	raek: ok so what is z there?
12:31	jweiss_	sorry :z
12:32	raek	when destructuring a map, a pair can either have a symbol or a keyword as its key
12:32	mefesto	technomancy: thanks, i'll try to put a patch together later today
12:33	raek	when it's a symbol, like in {a :b}, that symbol will be bound to the value you get when you look up :b in the map
12:33	raek	but instead of a symbol there, you can have another destructuring form
12:33	jweiss_	raek: ok i think i see why i'm confused, the doc is showing let bindings, which is not what i'm doing :)
12:34	jweiss_	i'm doing defn
12:34	mec	let and defn destructure identically
12:35	jweiss_	mec, yeah, but in a let there's a 2nd item (the value being destructured)
12:35	raek	with let, you have [destructuring-form value, destructuring-form value, ...] but with function parameters, you only have [destructuring-form, destructuring-form, ...]
12:35	jweiss_	so i was looking at "(let [{fred :fred ethel :ethel lucy :lucy} m] ..."
12:36	jweiss_	and wondering what m was
12:36	jweiss_	not realizing i'm looking at a le
12:36	jweiss_	let
12:36	raek	as mec pointed out, "destructuring-form" works the same for let and fn
12:37	raek	jweiss_: ah, I see. :) was my example of nested map destructuring clear?
12:37	jweiss_	raek: still having a bit of trouble interpreting {:keys [a b c], {:keys [d e]} :z}
12:38	jweiss_	the :z seems to be dangling there
12:39	raek	if you "expand" the first :keys, it looks like this: {a :a, b :b, {:keys [d e]} :z}
12:39	jweiss_	ah ok
12:39	jweiss_	that helps thanks :)
12:58	amalloy	ejackson: for sexpbot it's &(expr) at start of line, or ##(dec 1) anywhere in the line; $ is for commands
12:58	sexpbot	⟹ 0
12:59	mec	sexybot gets it done
13:09	dabd	struggling with http-agent here: how do you make a POST? url encode the parameters? what is the separator? thx
13:10	amalloy	mec: i read that like four times before i even noticed you'd changed the P to a Y
13:10	mec	amalloy: lol thats how i read sexpbot all the time
13:11	ejackson	amalloy: gracias.
13:12	ejackson	amalloy: and If I could stop reading pom.xml as porn.xml...
13:12	amalloy	ejackson: sexiest data-exchange format around
13:16	Raynes	amalloy: Did he ask a question somewhere? I missed it.
13:16	amalloy	Raynes: no, he just discovered that, when he used the wrong syntax, sexpbot ignored him
13:16	robinkraft	newbie question: How do I use 3rd party Java libraries? I'd like to do something like (import import org.apache.thrift.TBase), or include thrift as a dependency in project.clj. Even if you don't know anything about thrift, general info on how to use 3rd party libraries would be really helpful.
13:17	robinkraft	Thrift is already compiled and works in my Mac Python environment. I can even get thrift to work using demo Java classes that come with the thrift source code. But that's as far as I've gotten. FWIW there's a a jar file at /usr/local/lib/libthrift.jar.
13:17	robinkraft	p.s. pardon the typos - just saw the "import import"
13:19	mec	if the jar is on your classpath then the (import ..) should work
13:19	amalloy	robinkraft: you can depend on backtype/thriftjava 1.0.0
13:19	amalloy	surely the wrong way to do it, but i happen to know he's published thrift there
13:19	robinkraft	I'm not sure, probably
13:19	dnolen	robinkraft: you can also just copy that jar into your project lib folder.
13:19	robinkraft	but I'd like to know for other libraries that aren't so convenient
13:20	robinkraft	ok. what about using it from the repl
13:20	robinkraft	?
13:20	dnolen	robinkraft: lein repl, user=> (import '[org.apache.thrift TBase])
13:22	robinkraft	dnolen: seems it's not in my classpath. So, that's the next question I guess: how do I add something to my classpath?
13:22	dnolen	robinkraft: copy the jar into your project lib folder.
13:23	robinkraft	dnolen: so I can't just load it interactively in the repl? I need a project first?
13:23	dnolen	robinkraft: you can do it without a project but then you need manage the classpath yourself.
13:24	dnolen	robinkraft: ^
13:24	dnolen	java -cp path/to/clojure.jar:path/to/thrift.jar clojure.main
13:25	robinkraft	ahhh that looks promising
13:31	fliebel	Is there something that lets me update multiple keys in a nested structure?
13:32	mec	are they all at the same level?
13:32	fliebel	yes
13:32	mec	,(update-in [[[1 2 3]]] [0 0] assoc 0 2 1 3 2 4)
13:32	clojurebot	[[[2 3 4]]]
13:33	fliebel	w-what?
13:33	amalloy	fliebel: you want to do something like [:a :b [:c :d :e]]?
13:33	chrissbx	How do you install swank with leiningen? Someone showed it to me once, but it installed an old version of swank and there are issues with it.
13:33	mec	a map might be more clear:
13:33	fliebel	This is what my data looks like: {:a {:x 2 :y 2}}
13:34	mec	,(update-in {:a {:x 2 :y 2}} [:a] assoc :x 3 :y 3)
13:34	clojurebot	{:a {:x 3, :y 3}}
13:34	robinkraft	dnolen: I think you gave me enough to go with, I just need to figure out where the right jar file is ... Thanks much for your help
13:36	amalloy	mec: i've never managed to find a version of that that lets you use something more like update-in at the bottom level instead of assoc
13:36	fliebel	mec: Very nice. Now say I want to update and not assoc. If it's more than one line, I wrote something that does this already using reduce.
13:36	fliebel	amalloy: Ah, right
13:36	amalloy	maybe this is finally an argument for a plain update (rather than update-in)
13:36	mec	i dont follow
13:37	amalloy	eg (update-in {:a {:x 2 :y 2}} [:a] update [:x :y] inc)
13:37	fliebel	amalloy, mec: This is what I have now: https://gist.github.com/910326
13:37	chrissbx	Where should I start if I want to work with clojure from emacs?
13:37	amalloy	but update doesn't exist
13:37	mec	you can give update-in any function you want
13:37	fliebel	mec: But not multiple
13:37	amalloy	mec: you can't easily give it multiple keys
13:38	amalloy	obviously it's possible by asking update-in to use a function that does all the work, but the "prettiest" version of that would be a version of update that works like assoc
13:38	fliebel	Yea, I;ve always wondered why it does not exist. Is it in amalloy utils?
13:39	amalloy	fliebel: it's not; i haven't wanted it for several months
13:39	amalloy	after this discussion i'm thinking of adding it :P
13:39	fliebel	I still need a better acronym.
13:40	amalloy	?
13:40	chouser	technomancy: no where useful. Mainly I wish there were no object model built in, no inheritance, and no requirement to declare an exception type ahead of time.
13:41	fliebel	amalloy: You made me an acronym to convince me that amalloy had nothing to do with your name. I need to make myself a better one, because it wasn't very convincing.
13:41	mec	$findfn {:a 1 :b 2} [:a :b] inc {:a 2 :b 3}
13:41	sexpbot	[]
13:41	amalloy	heh
13:41	fliebel	mec: It should at least be inc inc
13:42	fliebel	or.. maybe not.
13:42	fliebel	$findfn {:a 1 :b 2} [:a :b] inc inc {:a 2 :b 3}
13:42	sexpbot	[]
13:42	amalloy	fliebel: k it's written. not very complicated
13:42	mec	(update-in {:a {:x 2 :y 2}} [:a :x] inc)
13:43	fliebel	cool
13:43	mec	,(update-in {:a {:x 2 :y 2}} [:a :x] inc)
13:43	clojurebot	{:a {:x 3, :y 2}}
13:43	dnolen	chrissbx: http://clojure02.managed.contegix.com/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs
13:43	amalloy	https://gist.github.com/910333, and i'll get it into amalloy-utils later
13:43	amalloy	i don't think you want inc inc
13:43	fliebel	amalloy: Why is it using update-in? I would have based it on get and assoc personally.
13:44	mec	you can do (apply update-in m [k] f args) instead of (update-in m [k] #(apply f % args))
13:45	amalloy	mec: thanks, i knew it was silly to need a closure
13:45	fliebel	amalloy: Now you are updating the whole datastructure every time, while you could only update the outer one once and the inner one as much as you need.
13:45	amalloy	fliebel: what? (update-in {:a {:x 2 :y 2}} [:a] update [:x :y] inc)
13:45	mec	you would still use update-in for that
13:45	fliebel	okay… oh right...
13:46	amalloy	i used update-in because it's crazy to use get+assoc to change a value in a map when you have update-in available
13:46	fliebel	I wasn't reading and thinking in a coherent manner.
13:47	livingston	if I use extend to add a protocol to a defrecord, and then pass that record instance out to Java, there is no way for java to see or use that object as that interface, is there? I would have to put that interface/protocol on at defrecord definition time right?
13:47	fliebel	yes
13:48	fliebel	extend stores the extension on the protocol, not on the record.
13:48	fliebel	(I only recently found out protocols are actually just maps)
13:48	livingston	whammy ok, guess I need to reorganize this code
13:50	livingston	fliebel: huh, that's interesting, especially since they allow objects to be created that don't need any dispatch or anything to get to their methods.
13:51	fliebel	{:impls {java.lang.String {:stuff #<user$eval359$fn__360 user$eval359$fn__360@5c1a1ff9>}}, :on-interface user.stuffer, :on user.stuffer, :sigs {:stuff {:doc nil, :arglists ([x y]), :name stuff}}, :var #'user/stuffer, :method-map {:stuff :stuff}, :method-builders {#'user/stuff #<user$eval340$fn__341 user$eval340$fn__341@13899213>}}
13:51	livingston	one more question on exposing clj data to java, if I pass out a record, and (since it's also a map) the java side wanted one of the fields, they could get it with get and passing a keyword as a parameter, right?
13:52	mec	you can also just do record.field
13:53	livingston	ooh - that's hugely handy
13:54	livingston	even if I use assoc to add on fields? that won't work then right, it wouldn't be available to the compiler?
13:54	mec	no just the default fields
13:55	livingston	makes sense, how would I get a non-default then, with get, right?
13:55	fliebel	Yea, using the ILookup protocol.
13:55	fliebel	I think it's actually entryAt
13:56	cemerick	livingston: Just using get all the time is generally a lot easier than worrying about the impl details.
13:56	cemerick	(and having to document concrete types on the java side)
13:56	fliebel	cemerick: But is there get at the Java side? I thought it was called entryAt.
13:57	cemerick	fliebel: records implement j.u.Map
13:57	fliebel	As well as ILookup, so both work?
13:57	cemerick	yeah, it implements a bunch of interfaces
13:58	cemerick	,(supers (defrecord A []))
13:58	clojurebot	DENIED
13:58	cemerick	anyway
13:58	livingston	that's really convienent for the java side, I would assume they would just use the java.util.Map interface that they are used to
13:58	amalloy	fliebel: everything is a map if you stand far enough back
13:59	livingston	although the Java users hav
13:59	livingston	e a casting nightmare on their hands
14:00	amalloy	livingston: you can typehint record fields
14:00	amalloy	er, maybe no
14:00	amalloy	i guess you can typehint them as primitives but that's about it
14:00	stuartsierra	yeah, primitive or Object
14:01	livingston	Object is not very useful as an interface to the java guys, but I guess that's what they get.
14:02	livingston	if I have a map that could have symbols strings or numbers, there's no way to give their compiler a better type anyway
14:09	stuartsierra	Generic types in Java, like Map<String, String> are not much more than syntactic sugar for type casts anyway.
14:10	livingston	in the end yes, but it save you from either flagging off the type checking, or putting casts everywhere. (i'm trying to be as accommodating as I can)
14:11	livingston	is there an example out there of how to defrecord using 2 protocols at the same time. the docs make it look kinda like you can only use one.
14:12	dnolen	livingston: something like this, https://github.com/swannodette/logos/blob/master/src/logos/minikanren.clj#L71
14:13	livingston	perfect (assuming that works for records too) thanks. the ordering of everything wasn't clear.
14:14	dnolen	livingston: works just the same for records, defrecord is just a deftype w/ extra stuff.
14:15	livingston	cool, thanks
14:15	livingston	what happens if two different protocols have the same function name? is that legal and can your point them to two different implementations or to the same implementation?
14:16	dnolen	livingston: two protocols can't use the same name with/in the same namespace as far as I understand.
14:16	mec	amalloy: in your update why do [& keys] instead of just keys
14:16	amalloy	&(doc update-in)
14:16	sexpbot	⟹ "([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
14:17	amalloy	mec: i know it's not necessary. it makes it more clear, for me, that it should be a seq
14:17	amalloy	and i'm sure i've seen it somewhere in clojure.core. maybe ##(doc clojure.string/join)?
14:17	sexpbot	⟹ "([coll] [separator [x & more]]); Returns a string of all elements in coll, separated by an optional separator. Like Perl's join."
14:23	stuartsierra	Clojure 1.2.1 is released and on its way to Maven Central.
14:29	technomancy	stuartsierra: still no tag?
14:30	stuartsierra	tag?
14:30	stuartsierra	oh, in git
14:31	stuartsierra	There's a branch I think. Bug stuarthalloway to make a tag.
14:35	Raynes	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/pull/6
14:36	stuartsierra	rhickey doesn't accept pull requests.
14:36	Raynes	stuartsierra: He certainly wouldn't accept that one.
14:36	stuartsierra	well no
14:38	cemerick	that's sooo bizarre
14:39	redinger	Wow, he actually went through all the work to do that
14:40	cemerick	I presume it was just s/clojure/lava, but…
14:40	amalloy	redinger: what work? find . \| xargs perl -pi -e 's/clojure/lava'
14:40	stuartsierra	I wonder if it builds?
14:40	cemerick	The fact that he submitted a pull request is great.
14:40	opqdonut_	haha, what's the story behind lava
14:40	znutar	I think the story is that it's cool
14:41	amalloy	i like how he renamed the repo too. style
14:41	Raynes	So cool.
14:41	fliebel	#findfn [1 2 3 2 1] [1 2 3]
14:41	fliebel	$irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/#findfn [1 2 3 2 1] [1 2 3]
14:41	fliebel	$findfn [1 2 3 2 1] [1 2 3]
14:41	sexpbot	[clojure.core/distinct]
14:41	fliebel	ah
14:41	Raynes	fliebel: Type slower. :>
14:41	redinger	Well it's rename all the files & replace text in files. Not a lot of work still - but why
14:42	cemerick	Reminds me of the guy who cloned the google code repo, swapped out the copyright notices for his own name, and pushed to github.
14:42	amalloy	but he left the homepage the same. clojure.org
14:42	fliebel	Raynes: Good idea.
14:42	znutar	Lava's got a sophisticated French feel if you pronounce it right too. As a newbie clojure user I look for this in my languages.
14:44	Raynes	Looks like the guy is a big Go fan.
14:44	Raynes	The language; not the game.
14:46	raek	stuartsierra: will there be an official announcement for 1.2.1?
14:46	stuartsierra	raek: There just was. ;)
14:47	raek	:)
14:47	stuartsierra	Once it's sync'd to Central I'll notify the mailing list.
14:47	raek	I was thinking about a URL to point people to
14:47	raek	ok
14:49	stuartsierra	Don't tempt me.
14:49	stuartsierra	I just spent the past 3 weeks implementing a 6-machine deployment strategy in Bash.
14:49	cemerick	Holy jeebus.
14:50	stuartsierra	It wasn't that bad actually.
14:50	cemerick	That's a bad time / node ratio, dude.
14:50	cemerick	I've been spoiled in the department in the past year.
14:51	cemerick	s/in the/in that
14:51	sexpbot	<cemerick> I've been spoiled in that department in that past year.
14:51	stuartsierra	Well, it wasn't 3 weeks full-time.
14:52	cemerick	oh well
14:52	cemerick	it's makes for good lore, anyway
14:52	livingston	mvn has it crufty bits (especially for dynamic language debugging in repl etc.) but it makes a lot of things really easy too
14:52	cemerick	Next time someone asks me "how long will it take to implement a 6-machine deployment strategy?"…
14:53	stuartsierra	Ruby + Rails + Clojure + C + Bash + Cron + TCL + a bunch of other stuff I forgot.
14:53	cemerick	livingston: Of course, your environment really should pull config from your pom.xml once, and work from there without ever running mvn for REPL stuff.
14:53	kephale00	Can anyone imagine complications with making the size of the fixed thread pool for agents tweakable?
14:54	stuartsierra	cemerick: On that note, I've been trying to think about what an interactive dev environment for Clojure would look like outside of an IDE.
14:54	stuartsierra	Maven alone isn't great for interactive development.
14:54	technomancy	we just had that discussion last night at seajure
14:55	stuartsierra	Oh, good, so you've solved it then? ;)
14:55	technomancy	apparently Steve Yegge is using Clojure for a cloud-y code indexing and support tool internally for Google
14:55	technomancy	well, not so much "outside an IDE" as a backend that's easy to support across environments
14:55	stuartsierra	Really???
14:55	cemerick	stuartsierra: It's an interesting question, but a non sequitur for me. I don't know that I'd have much to add or usefully suggest.
14:56	stuartsierra	technomancy: yeah, that's what I mean
14:56	technomancy	stuartsierra: yeah, I was surprised he got away with it. apparently when you've been at Google for six years you get some leverage.
14:56	stuartsierra	Classloader wrangling, thread management, reloading, introspection, …
14:57	cemerick	oh, I thought you were talking about UX stuff.
14:57	livingston	the really nice thing about mvn is if you are working in a mixed clojure and java environment you can, for the most part, make things work. I get my repl, they don't have to figure out my goofy dependencies etc.
14:58	stuartsierra	cemerick: No, like technomancy said, I'm thinking of a backend that's accessible to anything, including a command-line UI.
14:58	stuartsierra	I played with Nailgun last year: https://github.com/stuartsierra/classpath-manager
14:58	livingston	what do you mean outside of an ide? oh you mean just the back end?
14:58	stuartsierra	yeah
14:59	stuartsierra	So I can interact with it from the command line, Emacs, a web browser, etc.
14:59	livingston	I'm pretty happy with swank and slime...
14:59	stuartsierra	me too, but I dream of more… :)
14:59	technomancy	doesn't seem to be any public data on Google Grok, but if you could be a fly on that wall...
14:59	livingston	web browser etc. - why would you want that pain?
15:00	stuartsierra	well, I'm not volunteering to write the web front-end, but app servers sometimes have admin interfaces, like Glassfish.
15:01	livingston	the only thing I miss about swank+slime and clojure is some of the debugging isn't quite at the same level as I had it with lisps (also I was able to use swank/slime with AllegroCL and still use their dialog for trace output - it was a comfortable setup)
15:01	stuartsierra	I'd love if I could get the same kind of Java class/method lookup in Emacs that Java IDEs have.
15:02	technomancy	that's like the one thing I still have to go to javadoc for
15:02	livingston	re glassfish: that seems like something with different goals than development. but maybe there are commonalities.
15:02	stuartsierra	Yeah, this is all just random thoughts, not a coherent plan.
15:03	livingston	I would be surprised if there isn't an emacs hook to get you to the javadocs?
15:03	stuartsierra	yes, there is. In Clojure, in fact.
15:03	cemerick	surely there's something like http://eclim.org/ for emacs?
15:03	livingston	the other bummer about slime and clj and maven is when you look up a function or something it will always whisk you away into the jar, instead of your local files - that sucks.
15:04	stuartsierra	Yeah, Maven's lifecycle model wasn't designed for interactive development in a dynamic language.
15:05	livingston	if there was a way to get it to load local some in dev mode that would be good. (I think there may be a way to do that with a system dependency and a profile, but I haven't hacked that yet)
15:05	cemerick	stuartsierra: maven shell / aether to the rescue?
15:06	livingston	well then if you can hook the java doc you can get the data you need for autocomplete (there are java modes for emacs too right?) or is the javadoc rendered as a webpage and not parsed.
15:06	stuartsierra	Maven shell. Interesting. Don't know that.
15:06	livingston	I don't know those projects either?
15:10	livingston	maybe those would help. really all I want it to be able to have maven be willing to provide a local (system?) location for a select set of libraries that I'm developing and not have to jar them and put them in the repository first and then get them from there.
15:10	cemerick	stuartsierra: it's just a persistent jvm that you can load/reload poms into and invoke goals / lifecycles with.
15:10	cemerick	Its presence gives me the same vibe as polyglot maven though (i.e. going nowhere), so I'm not betting anything on it.
15:11	stuartsierra	intriguing. Does it reload dependent JARs each time.
15:11	stuartsierra	?
15:11	technomancy	sounds like sbt
15:11	cemerick	technomancy: yeah, same shtick.
15:15	markoman	would someone like to review and comment my first clojure study project on git?
15:16	mids	just share the url
15:16	markoman	code, principles, best practices, anything, id appreciate that before continuing on other project
15:16	markoman	https://github.com/mmstud/websesstudy
15:18	amalloy	markoman: holy cow, sudo lein deps? i'm not sure i can imagine a reason to recommend that ever
15:19	kephale00	lol
15:19	_fogus_	cemerick: Are you still thinking of putting together an authors' panel at Conj '11?
15:19	markoman	havent done harm on my machine yet ;) but good point, i constantly get problems to use lein because of directory or file permissions
15:20	livingston_	anyone want to check my code, just sudo ... , yeah you almost got me there internet ... just kidding ;)
15:20	markoman	adds some frustration to the high pile already
15:20	redinger	_fogus_, cemerick: I've already got it listed as a proposal with my initial list of names. :) I'll flesh it out if Chas sends more info
15:21	amalloy	markoman: i've never had a problem with permissions using lein. do you have both lein and your project inside of ~?
15:22	markoman	project is inside home dir on my mac, lein is on /bin
15:22	cemerick	_fogus_, redinger: It was an idle idea. I'm not really sure what a proposal would look like though.
15:22	amalloy	markoman: i use a copy of lein in ~/bin/lein
15:22	cemerick	I suppose we could collect questions ahead of time, or have someone run around Donahue-style to take questions from the audience.
15:23	amalloy	if you put it in /bin it seems like eg lein self-install would fail because you don't have write perms
15:23	markoman	i dont haven even ~/bin dir here
15:23	amalloy	markoman: it's a good idea to create one and add it to your PATH
15:24	mids	markoman: in your defrouters I'd suggest a more REST behaviour, like using POST for routes with side effects
15:24	markoman	yeah, thats true. i should add bin to my home and put it on path probably working then better?
15:24	amalloy	blink didn't follow that sentence as a whole, but all the bits in it sound good
15:25	markoman	sorry, clumsy finglish
15:25	amalloy	technomancy: do you recommend for/against installing lein in /(user/)bin?
15:26	mids	markoman: also, how does your session/flash stuff different from what sandbar offers?
15:26	mids	https://github.com/brentonashworth/sandbar
15:27	markoman	mids, I looked sandbar but I couldnt follow its code by every part, it looked complicated to me, lol
15:27	mids	markoman: fair enough, it probably is :)
15:27	markoman	but yes, it overlaps with my other project too, forms, but its not same anyway
15:32	technomancy	amalloy: it's fine. keeping self-installs somewhere other than ~/.lein is something that might need some thought, but so far I've left that to the packagers.
15:32	markoman	mids: do you mean I should use POST for setting session value and adding a task? or maybe PUT or what do you mean with "more REST" ?
15:33	ataggart	Anyone here have the power to alter fields on Jira tickets?
15:34	stuartsierra	such as?
15:34	amalloy	markoman: GET requests shouldn't have side effects
15:34	steven	(it was pretty much just a s/clojure/lava/g, yeah)
15:35	ataggart	stuartsierra: For some reason the only thing I can do on tickets is manage comments and attachments. There are a few tickets that need to be marked ready for test, but alas I don't seem to be able to do that.
15:35	cemerick	steven: why, but why is the only real question…
15:36	stuartsierra	ataggart: Ask on the dev list for your account to be upgraded.
15:36	steven	cuz its a cooler name
15:36	markoman	amalloy: they still need to output something, but I think I got you. but to keep example simple, is there other way to do it than POST forms? it makes thing unnecessary complicated on this case, but real app, yes I agree
15:36	steven	closure is something your girlfriend wants after you break up
15:36	cemerick	Well, I'm convinced.
15:36	devn	Will the reader puke on ##(symbol "$foo.bar")? I know it's ill-advised, but how ill-advised is it?
15:36	sexpbot	⟹ $foo.bar
15:36	steven	lava levels cities and gets immediate results
15:36	stuartsierra	If only it weren't for the darned Los Angeles Venture Association home page...
15:37	ataggart	stuartsierra: I wrote to Aaron, he said I should be able to modify tickets.
15:38	ataggart	oh well
15:38	stuartsierra	sorry, I don't know much about JIRA
15:38	ataggart	yeah, I was hoping someone here was able to do what I can't, and would be kind enough to modify them for me.
15:39	amalloy	session-bind is going out of its way to make its use of this atom not threadsafe
15:40	amalloy	you could write it as "(swap! STORE assoc sid session) session", or "(:session (swap! STORE assoc sid session))"
15:41	amalloy	but (swap! foo...) @foo is rarely right
15:44	markoman	hmh.. im not sure if I understand
15:44	amalloy	markoman: do you intend for session-bind to always return the session the user passes in?
15:46	markoman	yes, sid is mandatory there so it will be empty map or map having session data for user. thats what its meant for
15:47	amalloy	i think you answered a question different from what i asked. you have session-bind doing a swap, and then returning (get m the-key-you-just-set). do you want that to always return the value the user supplied?
15:50	technomancy	,(reduce (partial merge-with concat) (for [i (range 1878) ] {:a []}))
15:50	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
15:52	amalloy	technomancy: (concat (concat (concat (concat....)))) all gets realized at once
15:53	markoman	hmh... I just want STORE to keep all users session data. session-bind is used by session-set and get primarily.
15:54	amalloy	you're missing the point. imagine two threads both want to change the session data at once, to two different values: it's possible they both swap before either returns, and then they both return the newest value; the guy who set it first gets silently overwritten
15:54	markoman	i think i choose doing swap every time to simplify process so that i dont need to have set, get, save, update, delete functionaility for the session-bind
15:55	markoman	ouh
15:55	technomancy	yeah, something is lazy even coming out of reduce. interesting.
15:56	raek	,(reduce (partial merge-with (comp doall concat)) (for [i (range 1878) ] {:a []}))
15:56	clojurebot	{:a ()}
15:57	raek	this avoids a cascade of forcings
15:58	markoman	amalloy: i think I got some of what you meant. Im about to use code on google app engine at the end, I guess there is no thread problem or am I wrong?
15:58	amalloy	markoman: in practice there's unlikely to be
15:59	amalloy	but it's crazy to introduce this sort of race condition when the code would be simpler if you didn't introduce it
15:59	markoman	but you suggested some change, could it work on threaded environment better then?
16:00	amalloy	&(let [a (atom {}] (:name (swap! a assoc :name "test")))
16:00	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires an even number of forms in binding vector
16:00	markoman	yeah, Im not used to think threads from PHP side
16:00	amalloy	&(let [a (atom {})] (:name (swap! a assoc :name "test")))
16:00	sexpbot	⟹ "test"
16:00	amalloy	here, instead of deref-ing the atom again once you're done swapping, you take advantage of the fact that swap! returns the new value
16:01	amalloy	or since you know what the key will be, you could just ##(let [name "test" a (atom {})] (swap! a assoc :name name) name)
16:01	sexpbot	⟹ "test"
16:04	markoman	amalloy: sounds interesting and certainly I need to test these things more. can you advice how could I test session behaviour if its working with threads at the end?
16:05	amalloy	not really. i don't do any webdev in clojure, really
16:07	markoman	so could we say, my session-bind is not thread safe at the moment? :)
16:13	amalloy	it's hard to say for sure because you refuse to clarify what you expect it to return :P
16:16	markoman	user session data
16:17	ssideris	hello
16:17	ssideris	,(str (drop 1 [5 6 7]))
16:17	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@482"
16:18	ssideris	how could I get "[6 7]" instead?
16:18	raek	ssideris: use pr-str
16:18	ssideris	ah, thanks
16:18	raek	,(pr-str (drop 1 [5 6 7]))
16:18	clojurebot	"(6 7)"
16:18	amalloy	apply str
16:18	amalloy	oh nm
16:19	markoman	i cant say it simpler way. it should return only the user related session data. not all sessions or not only some particular data on user session, but all for user
16:22	markoman	and it should return it on form of map, not atom. and of course, it should work on all possible situation without deleting or missing data, when several users are getting their session data from same store
16:22	clojurebot	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/fd0371eb7238e933
16:23	markoman	I think I recall now my problem on this case, I didnt really know, how to update certain part of the atom
16:24	amalloy	lol thanks for the years-old discussion about atoms, clojurebot
16:25	markoman	if atom has a map {sid1 {} sid2 {}} how can i update only sid2 {} maybe link tells it :)
16:26	amalloy	&(let [a (atom {:a {} :b {}})] (swap! a update-in [:b] assoc :data 10))
16:26	sexpbot	⟹ {:a {}, :b {:data 10}}
16:26	trptcolin	the fn that atom! takes as an arg can look at the current atom and do whatever it wants with it
16:27	raek	markoman: (swap! a update-in [sid2] <your update function here>)
16:27	trptcolin	s/current atom/current value of the atom/
16:27	sexpbot	<trptcolin> the fn that atom! takes as an arg can look at the current value of the atom and do whatever it wants with it
16:28	markoman	amalloy, so I think that would be much better way on session-bind and it should cut out the race condition
16:40	markoman	:b should be updated with any kind of data, not just one key value pair but :b {:data 10 :tasks [1 2 3]}
16:41	markoman	what kind of update function can do that?
16:41	markoman	i guess not assoc?
16:43	raek	markoman: you want to update something for a certain session and something common to all sessions?
16:43	markoman	something for certain session
16:44	raek	can you give an example of how the map should look like before and after?
16:47	ataggart	markoman: you probably want update-in
16:47	markoman	sure: before {:sid "35bcf8b4"} after {:sid "35bcf8b4" :flash "message" :count 2 :tasks ["task 1" "task 2"]}
16:48	ataggart	,(assoc {:sid "35bcf8b4"} :flash "message" :count 2 :tasks ["task 1" "task 2"])
16:48	clojurebot	{:tasks ["task 1" "task 2"], :count 2, :flash "message", :sid "35bcf8b4"}
16:48	markoman	even flash count and tasks are updated one by one, on each request they are retrieved all by one
16:50	markoman	ah ok , you can just put them all in row
16:52	ataggart	,(doc assoc)
16:52	clojurebot	"([map key val] [map key val & kvs]); assoc[iate]. When applied to a map, returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that contains the mapping of key(s) to val(s). When applied to a vector, returns a new vector that contains val at index. Note - index must be <= (count vector)."
17:01	markoman	i see, now i realize what & kvs means
17:05	currentB	is there a somewhat clean way to produce an original, quoted form which defines a function from that function object itself?
17:06	currentB	in otherwords, I have a function object defined with (fn [x] (+ x 1)), is there a way I can get access to that form in a program?
17:07	amalloy	no
17:07	currentB	k, thanks
17:07	amalloy	you could ask technomancy about his print-dup-able fn, though, if it excites you
17:09	technomancy	clojurebot: google serializable-fn
17:09	clojurebot	First, out of 6370 results is:
17:09	clojurebot	technomancy/serializable-fn - GitHub
17:09	clojurebot	https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
17:09	technomancy	~botsnack
17:09	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
17:11	amalloy	technomancy: i can never remember what the dang thing is called, so it's hard to google for. last time i searched for technomancy (or maybe hagelberg?) on the mailing list and filtered manually :P
17:11	technomancy	it's on Seajure's github too
17:15	fliebel	technomancy: What is that save-env doing?
17:17	amalloy	fliebel: capturing closed-around values
17:19	devn	Hey all -- I'm trying to add metadata on a def generated by a defmacro
17:19	devn	here's a code sample...
17:20	devn	(defmacro deftemplate [name & forms] `(def (with-meta ~name {:soy true} ) ~(deftemplate-helper forms)))
17:20	amalloy	devn: move the ~ outside of with-meta
17:21	fliebel	amalloy: Are these &env and &form some special values?
17:21	amalloy	fliebel: macros all get them
17:21	markoman	hillarious bots you have here
17:21	amalloy	as of, what, 1.2 i think?
17:22	Raynes	We have the most awesome bots ever.
17:23	amalloy	clojurebot: show markoman how well you speak languages nobody else does
17:23	clojurebot	please show us that ugt is not broken
17:23	amalloy	aw
17:23	amalloy	~maybe like this?
17:23	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:24	markoman	:D
17:25	markoman	maybe one day she can interpret my english to you
17:26	fliebel	amalloy: Where is v defined? I see val, but not v.
17:27	amalloy	fliebel: what? plz context, what code are you talking about
17:27	fliebel	the printable function
17:28	amalloy	it looks like it's .v, a member function. i haven't looked into how &env actually works
17:29	markoman	i was planning new app with lein yesterday, formjure but jury told *jure ends are not available anymore. so i figured it went really bad at some point, lol
17:31	livingston	due to an oddity of the rdf spec strings can have a language tag associated with them, for example @en for English. I would really like to just stash that in meta data but no meta data on strings...
17:31	Raynes	Didn't leiningen remove that restriction a while back?
17:32	livingston	any good suggestions? a structure that has a string and a tag seems annoying because I'd like it to generally behave like a String
17:35	raek	what does the spec say about strings with different languages and equality?
17:36	livingston	they are explicitly non-equal (although there is an operator to just get their string guts, which you could compare)
17:37	markoman	Raynes, version 5 i have still have it
17:37	livingston	also the absence of a tag is not wild card so "foo" != "foo"@en
17:37	raek	metadata does not affect equality, so that could be an argument against coding it as metadata of some sort
17:38	raek	one obvious way could be to represent them as ["foo" :en] or [:en "foo"] (with nil as no language)
17:39	raek	since the language tag is really a part of the string data, I'm inclined to be explicit about it
17:40	raek	another way could be to skip the vector if there is no language tag. that would force the functions that use them to have cases for both, though
17:40	livingston	raek: that's not awful, but I'd kinda like them to behave like strings out of the box as much as possible. I guess I could accommodate "foo" and ["foo" :en]
17:42	raek	this does not inhibit you from "massaging" input to the program, e.g. by normalizing "foo" to ["foo" nil]
17:42	livingston	right
17:42	raek	but I feel that allowing both as the internal representation only complicates matters
17:43	raek	...and vice versa for prettyprinting output
17:44	livingston	my use case (and what I assume is the most average use case) is that people have data in their language and data with no language tag and that's all they use, so for the most part it's a flag that sometimes caused inequality for no good reason (because there's no way to say just treat the default and mine (e.g., @en) as the same)
17:46	raek	heh, this reminds me of the name of the country Monaco and Munich, a German city
17:46	raek	in italian, the name of Munich is "Monaco"
17:46	markoman	how do you overline word(s) on .markdown language?
17:48	jweiss_	i'm figuring out destructuring. but i also want to do some structuring :) as in, i have 5 keyword arguments, i want to return a nested map structure with only the keys that were passed in, in place in the structure. using literals doesn't work because i end up with all the keys, not just the ones passed in.
17:48	raek	...so, "Monaco"@en and "Monaco"@it are quite different
17:49	jweiss_	as in, given keys [a b c d e] return {:a a :b :b :c {:d d :e e:} } but leave out keys not provided
17:50	livingston	raek: yeah. that's I think what they are getting at. but really I think they should have probably just used different properties so instead of lable and the predicate it could be label-en or label-it that are subs of label etc.
17:51	raek	jweiss_: the thing you are describing sounds a bit like select-keys
17:51	ataggart	,(select-keys {:a a :b :b {:d d :e e:} } [:a :b])
17:51	clojurebot	Invalid token: e:
17:51	ataggart	bah, whatever
17:51	jweiss_	yeah i gotcha, that is simple for a flat map, but gets ugly when it's nested
17:52	ataggart	back to trying to learn scala
17:54	raek	destructuring only helps you with extracting the pieces
17:54	jweiss_	raek: yeah, i said i want to do structuring :)
17:54	jweiss_	taking pieces and putting them into a structure
17:54	raek	oh, misread that...
17:55	martin_mcgovern	\msg nickserv help
17:55	livingston	jweiss_: so just use backquote and ~
17:55	raek	is there a fixed number of nestings?
17:55	jweiss_	raek, yes
17:56	jweiss_	the structure is known, the real issue is how to leave out items not provided
17:56	raek	I would start with the inner one
17:56	raek	that should be a simple select-keys
17:56	jweiss_	actually livingston 's idea makes sense
17:57	jweiss_	sorta... can't figure out how i'd do it without a bunch of ifs everywhere
17:57	jweiss_	but that's a start
17:57	livingston	I mean assuming it's a fixed transformation or is this for any old list?
17:57	raek	what would syntax-quote add?
17:57	raek	you can just have a map literal in your code
17:57	jweiss_	raek but how to remove keys that weren't provided to my fn?
17:58	livingston	actually I think I got confused about the problem.
17:58	livingston	how does it know to make that nested hash?
17:58	raek	jweiss_: what key does the {:d d :e e:} value belong to?
17:58	jweiss_	raek: c
17:59	raek	oh, right. it's right there...
17:59	jweiss_	so if i call (myfn :a 1 :b 2 :d 3), i want {a: 1 :b 2 :c {:d 3}}
18:00	livingston	so you have a hash of hashes ... and a list of keys and you only want the stuff that matches the keys wherever they are?
18:00	jweiss_	yeah
18:00	raek	(fn [{:keys [a b c], :as outer-map}] (-> outer-map (select-keys [:a :b]) (assoc :c (select-keys c [:d :e]))))
18:00	livingston	in your example how does it get the :c ? and know to nest the :d ??
18:01	jweiss_	livingston that is what i'm trying to solve
18:02	raek	jweiss_: ^ that should work, assuming that the involved keys are fixed
18:03	jweiss_	raek: ok thanks. do ou think there's a way to specify the literal, and transform it in a generic way to get what i want?
18:03	jweiss_	i mean i know there is
18:03	jweiss_	simple way :)
18:04	livingston	i still don't follow. if the input is just what's given, then I have to assume you want the first tow out and the rest in a nested hash... then yeah go with something like raek said or just cons it together yourself if you know what the structure is. I either missed something or this is too abstract
18:05	jweiss_	livingston: i have multiple functions that do similar things, different structures
18:05	jweiss_	so i'm looking for something more generic
18:05	jweiss_	sorry one of you asked me that earlier and i gave a misleading answer
18:06	raek	it is possible with a macro
18:07	jweiss_	ah well, i was hoping i was missing a straightforward solution. i'll take your suggestions and see what i can do - thanks!
18:07	raek	so you want something that takes something like {:a _, :b _, :c {:d _, :e _}} and turns it into the code above?
18:08	jweiss_	raek: yeah, something like that
18:08	raek	hrm, wait. you only need a macro if you need it to expand into a destructuring form
18:08	jweiss_	i mean, destructuring already does what i want in that sense
18:08	jweiss_	except it exposes that structure to my callers, which i don't want to do
18:08	raek	but you should still be able to solve the problem with a function
18:08	livingston	if it's only 2 or 3 specific keys going to something: `(:a ~(get input :a) ... or create your list with the things your wanted substitued a template and recursively substitue in use your input hash keys/vals as the things to replace
18:09	raek	(although, in that case, you'd use a bunch of gets instead of destructuring)
18:09	jweiss_	ok
18:09	livingston	ok what raek said is now something else... you need to make up your mind ;)
18:10	jweiss_	sorry i am not sure what raek meant by "the code above"
18:10	raek	oh, the (fn ...) I wrote...
18:11	jweiss_	i want a fn that takes the template {:a _, :b _, :c {:d _,
18:11	jweiss_	:e _}} and a flat map with possible keys :a :b :d :e and builds the map
18:11	jweiss_	by replacing _ with the value and leaving out what was not provided
18:12	jweiss_	oh sorry raek then that isn't what i wanted
18:12	raek	in addition, destructuring is syntactic sugar for humans. if you need to automate stuff at runtime, it might not be that useful
18:13	jweiss_	it seems like what i want is pretty common
18:13	jweiss_	maybe not
18:13	jweiss_	just a list of optional fn args, and i want to stick them in a datastructure
18:13	jweiss_	the only thing is i don't want nils where keys were left out
18:14	jweiss_	i could traverse and remove nils, but that makes nil the "magic" value
18:14	jweiss_	and won't distinguish if a real nil was passed in.
18:15	livingston	make a macro (key-and-val input :a) then have that macro look up :a in the input if it's there return (:a (get input :a)) if it's not return nil
18:16	livingston	then syntax quote your structure and call that macro where you need it with the stitch in command ~@
18:17	markoman	amalloy: so i changed session-bind to return session argument without using get. tests didnt fail so it should be ok. thanks for your input
18:17	livingston	jweiss_: that's the simplest thing that could possibly work that's quick to code
18:18	jweiss_	livingston: not seeing how my syntax quoted structure won't have nils in it.
18:19	livingston	jweiss_: that's why you splice it in with ~@
18:19	livingston	actually if it's not there you need to return '() from the macro probably (not nil, sorry, I still think in lisp)
18:25	amalloy	livingston: there's nothing wrong with quoting it for clarity, but i'd like to make sure you know that you don't need to quote the empty list: ##()
18:25	sexpbot	⟹ ()
18:25	clizzin	are there any clojure libs for bundling AMIs on EC2?
18:26	livingston	jweiss_: so you would do `{~@(kv i :a) ~@(kv i :b) :c {~@(kv i :d) ...} where kv takes a hash and a key either returns '() or (list key (get input key))
18:26	livingston	amalloy: ah thanks. (like I said, still thinks in lisp)
18:26	amalloy	indeed
18:26	livingston	CL that is
18:27	amalloy	livingston: i showed up last night after you were asking about inspecting clojure .class files. have you used javap?
18:27	livingston	no
18:27	jweiss_	cool, thanks
18:28	TimMc	amalloy: I should try running a Java disassembler on a clojure class file. :-)
18:28	livingston	last time I seriously programmed java my second edition java in a nutshell was current (enough)
18:28	amalloy	https://gist.github.com/295631
18:28	livingston	does it ship with the jdk
18:28	amalloy	yes
18:29	livingston	super cool that would have been useful and exactly what I needed
18:29	amalloy	heh
18:29	amalloy	but too late?
18:30	livingston	I wanted to look at exactly what clj was compiling as an interface definition
18:31	livingston	I was able to see enough with less, then I just called import on the .class file in my repl then show, that did the trick too
18:31	amalloy	livingston: yeah, show is handy
18:31	livingston	I call it constantly
18:31	amalloy	javap has options to show you the debugger symbols, like locals and line numbers
18:32	amalloy	well. maybe not line numbers. but assembly code, anyway
18:32	TimMc	Does the JVM have an assembler?
18:33	TimMc	Is that how JVM compilers work?
18:33	TimMc	I think I'll write my next program in bytecode. :-P
18:33	amalloy	TimMc: there's not an assembler that's easy to get access to
18:33	amalloy	but the clojure.asm package outputs jvm bytecode and then runs it through some library to generate classes from it
18:34	livingston	TimMc: byte code. the jvm takes it from there. (as far as I understand)
18:34	raek	clojure uses the ASM (yes, that's its name) library http://asm.ow2.org/
18:35	raek	there's some assemblers out there. I have tried Jasmin a little
18:35	raek	though, there doesn't seem be any standardized assembly syntax for the jvm
18:36	TimMc	Curious.
18:36	raek	so in clojure's case, the code goes directly from AST to .class-file
18:39	raek	I really recommend to try to write a class with a JVM assembler and call the code from clojure...
18:39	raek	it's an interesting experience
18:47	TimMc	You recommend this?
18:51	livingston	that's like when someone says, "this tastes awful. see, you try."
19:06	livingston	so deftype/record examples show the function definitions being "in-lined" right into the deftype macro, is there any advantage / disadvantage to pointing at some other function?
19:07	livingston	if it's a big protocol it seems like this could be a bit messy?
19:08	amalloy	livingston: reuse existing functions that are useful for multiple protocols. define protocol functions as (comp inc +) instead of explicit (fn) forms
19:09	livingston	I'm not quite following the (comp int +) bit?
19:16	amalloy	livingston: you could implement a protocol function by composing together existing functions
19:17	amalloy	(extend String Splittable {:split (juxt first rest)})
19:19	livingston	I was just wondering about (defrecord Foo [bar] Splittable (split [x] (my-split x))) seems a little redundant.
19:49	hiredman	~search for reduce
19:49	clojurebot	<#clojure:raek> ,(reduce (partial merge-with (comp doall concat)) (for [i (range 1878) ] {:a []}))
19:49	clojurebot	<#clojure:technomancy> yeah, something is lazy even coming out of reduce. interesting.
19:49	clojurebot	<#clojure:technomancy> ,(reduce (partial merge-with concat) (for [i (range 1878) ] {:a []}))
19:49	clojurebot	<#clojure:fliebel> mec: Very nice. Now say I want to update and not assoc. If it's more than one line, I wrote something that does this already using reduce.
21:34	livingston	so I have a root set of functionality and an extension (or two), I have them as two separate protocols, but if I pass objects of these types out to java users they are going to have to constantly cast between the types if they want to use functions in the core with functions in the extension, right?
21:38	danbell	Does anyone know of a clojure/tomcat tutorial?
21:46	ignacio	@danbell: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1464071/clojure-web-application-where-do-i-start?
21:54	danbell	ignacio---thanks
21:55	danbell	eventually found a link chain
22:12	dnolen	livingston: hmm I'm beginning to think exposing deftype and defrecord to Java users might not be such a hot idea. They aren't meant to be higher-level then what Java can provide.
22:12	dnolen	s/aren't/are
22:12	sexpbot	<dnolen> livingston: hmm I'm beginning to think exposing deftype and defrecord to Java users might not be such a hot idea. They are meant to be higher-level then what Java can provide.
22:13	livingston	dnolen: ? higher level
22:13	livingston	oh
22:13	dnolen	livingston: defrecord specifically has a bunch of magic so that Clojure code doesn't need type hints. Java user don't have any such luck.
22:13	dnolen	er, I mean protocols.
22:13	livingston	it can't be that unintended defprotocol automatically generated a java interface to go with it.
22:14	dnolen	livingston: I think that's a hosty implementation detail.
22:14	livingston	what else should I do, create POJOs instead
22:15	dnolen	livingston: pre deftype/record/protocols, to expose Clojure goodness to Java people used genclass.
22:19	livingston	from clojure.org/datatypes "While datatypes and protocols have well-defined relationships with host constructs, and make for a great way to expose Clojure functionality to Java programs, they are not primarily interop constructs"
22:20	livingston	also: "If you use datatypes and protocols you will have a clean, interface-based API to offer your Java consumers. If you are dealing with a clean, interface-based Java API, datatypes and protocols can be used to interoperate with and extend it. If you have a 'bad' Java API, you will have to use gen-class. "
22:21	livingston	none of the documentation says how java users are supposed to deal with typecasting though
22:21	dnolen	livingston: hmm, I guess I fail to see how that's true. Since protocols have untyped arguments (except for the first arg).
22:22	livingston	the args aren't the problem. java users can shove anything in and it'll just pass as Object. it's really the return values that are going to be the most trouble
22:25	livingston	at least I would think ... I'm not the biggest java programmer.
22:25	dnolen	livingston: well if you're record implements two protocols I don't think users will need to do any casting. Not sure about return values.
22:27	livingston	dnolen: they will if they code to the interface(s) and not the concrete type right?
22:28	livingston	consider iA iB sets of functions, and implementations X and Y that do iA and iB differently. if they just care about A/B functionality and want to abstract themselves from X and Y
22:30	dnolen	livingston: yeah but that's true of Java too right?
22:31	livingston	presumably, I supposed. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something to make it easier or whatever.
22:50	livingston	if I have a standard let type vector [a 3 b 4] what's the best way to pull the variables out?
22:52	pdk	what do you mean by pull them out
22:53	pdk	pass them to code outside the let block?
22:53	livingston	just get them in a list or something I just want'ed '(a b)
22:53	pdk	[a b] then?
22:53	pdk	remember let returns the value of the last thing in its body
22:53	livingston	any sequence is fine
22:54	livingston	no sorry that was misleading to say let, I just ment a vector like that (pairs of things) and I want the "keys"
22:56	pdk	can you clarify on keys here
22:56	sattvik	,(keys (apply assoc {} [:a 1 :b 2]))
22:56	clojurebot	(:b :a)
22:56	pdk	you want to grab items 0 2 4 etc out of a list?
22:56	amalloy	livingston: ##(take-nth 2 '[a 1 b 2])
22:56	sexpbot	⟹ (a b)
22:56	livingston	that's what I was looking for, thanks amalloy
22:57	livingston	sorry for the confusion everyone.
22:57	livingston	there's always an easy way to do that but I can never remember
22:57	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:04	livingston	is this the best way to combine two vectors and get one out? (vec (concat '[a b] '[3 4]))
23:06	amalloy	livingston: ##(into '[a b] [3 4]) is better if you're sure that (at least) the first one is a vector, but these are all linear-time; concatenating vectors is difficult to do at the source level because it's not performant
23:06	sexpbot	⟹ [a b 3 4]
23:07	livingston	cool. they are short and they are in macros ... so they can be slow (er)
23:29	livingston	can anyone tell me why this isn't working: https://gist.github.com/911074
23:33	amalloy	livingston: i can't really look in detail, but (~args ~@special-args) looks suspicious
23:34	amalloy	as does (~(vec ...))
23:35	livingston	argh I'm an idiot... there's an extra paren in (concat (special-vars args)) .. should be (concat special-var args) and I'm good
23:36	livingston	basically I want to make a function that if you call with out the special args it just gives you defaults, but if you call with new values for the special args, it needs to bind them too, so that downstream calls will get them too
23:38	amalloy	livingston: would it do any harm to bind the specials when you use the default?
23:38	livingston	no
23:39	amalloy	you might be able to use ##(doc fnil) then
23:39	sexpbot	⟹ "([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take... http://gist.github.com/911078
23:39	livingston	but if they are getting called with any frequency or depth it seems like a lot of bindings to stack up.
23:42	livingston	oh that's a little weird, no I want something more like partial I think
23:43	amalloy	mkay
23:43	livingston	it's the first arg that I'm binding with a special (global) var. so if the user doesn't care (or know the first arg) they get the default (and they call it with one less arg)
23:48	joshua__	Hmm. I'm doing a commit in my local git repository and it isn't making it origin/master etc. When I try to push the changes it says everything is up to date. I don't get it.
23:52	amalloy	joshua__: you probably haven't done a git add. what's git status show?
23:52	joshua__	amalloy, It says nothing to commit.
23:53	amalloy	joshua__: and git log shows the commit you want to push? in that case git push origin master should work
23:56	joshua__	amalloy, Says "Everything is up to date." Doesn't push my commit.
23:56	joshua__	amalloy, Thus, the confusion.
23:57	amalloy	joshua__: you can ask in #git. if the branch you're on locally is master, and your log shows the commits you want to push, then i don't know the right questions to ask :P