#clojure – 2011-04-05

2011-04-05

02:42	hirak8	what's the best option for connecitng clojure to mongodb?
02:43	hirak8	i've found congomongo & karras among others
02:43	hirak8	but don't know which to use, if either
02:45	hirak8	seems like congomongo is most popular, but the main clojars package seems out of date. makes me concerned
02:45	amalloy	hirak8: congomongo has been fine for me
02:46	hirak8	amalloy: do you pull it from clojars or github?
02:46	amalloy	clojars
02:47	hirak8	k
02:47	hirak8	amalloy: do you happen to know if it supports sharding & replica sets?
02:48	amalloy	no idea. i use it for pretty basic storage. indexing is as complicated as i've gotten
02:48	hirak8	k
03:06	amalloy	anyone surprised that ##(doc inc) has x as a param, but calls it num in the docstring?
03:06	sexpbot	⟹ "([x]); Returns a number one greater than num."
03:13	TobiasRaeder	morning
03:14	no_mind	what is the most suitable datastrucute/datatype for creating a cache
03:15	amalloy	hashmap
03:15	amalloy	hi TobiasRaeder
03:15	no_mind	amalloy: but cache needs mutability. A cache will become dirty and needs to be refreshed
03:16	amalloy	no_mind: (a) that depends entirely on what you're caching; (b) so what? wrap it in an atom or a ref and you're all set
03:37	ejackson	Morning all
03:38	raek	mornin
03:44	cemerick	feh, good night :-P
03:44	cemerick	:-)
03:46	ejackson	cemerick: are you just getting up, or just going to bed ?
03:46	cemerick	ejackson: the latter
03:46	ejackson	have mercy ! I hope it was some cracking code :)
03:47	ejackson	lol I know that feeling. Or the feeling that I wish I'd gone to bed two hours ago....
03:47	cemerick	It's been a crazy month or two.
03:48	ejackson	know that feeling
03:48	ejackson	i've got a client on my hands who fails to understand that I can only implement the spec he gives me, errors and all
04:10	w0tan_	i'm learning functional programming via SICP. how much of that should be valid in clojure? basic vocab aside
04:10	AWizzArd	You can apply those principles to Clojure.
04:11	amalloy	w0tan_: sicp is great, and translates pretty well. some of the later examples use set! all over the place, and those don't translate so well
04:11	amalloy	(is what i've been told, anyway. i never got that far through the book ashamed)
04:13	w0tan_	heh, i'm sure i'm nowhere near that point anyway
04:13	w0tan_	good to know, though. thanks
04:15	ejackson	w0tan_: the other thing to watch out for is that you don't come across Clojures sequence functions which are massively powerful.
04:15	xkb	hi
04:15	xkb	I'm looking for a good example of a with-something macro, the kind that wraps a call and provides it with extra parameters
04:15	xkb	do you know any good examples?
04:16	xkb	like for example with-auth or with-user or something like that
04:17	ejackson	but its a fantastic place to start
04:17	ejackson	xkb... I wrote a simple once last week.... one second
04:17	ejackson	https://gist.github.com/897978
04:18	ejackson	that binds connection dynamically for use is wrapped functions
04:18	ejackson	most basic example
04:18	xkb	ejackson: thanks, I'll check it out
04:18	xkb	seems like most of these macro's rebind a var to some global
04:18	amalloy	xkb: also https://github.com/amalloy/amalloy-utils/blob/master/src/amalloy/utils/transform.clj#L31
04:18	amalloy	which is not doing any var binding, just a let
04:19	xkb	I'm working on a Last.FM api wrapper
04:19	xkb	where some of the calls are oauth based and others arent
04:24	xkb	amalloy: thanks for the link!
04:24	xkb	gotta love github :)
05:10	pyr	hi
05:10	pyr	I forget what the idiom is to do the equivalent of apply on a member function
05:11	pyr	(on a java instance method i mean)
05:17	amalloy	pyr: don't?
05:18	Dantas	Hi everyone !!! One noob question: To create a lazy-seq the function could not be optimized to use tail call : (defn list-generator [base increment coll] (lazy-seq (list-generator (+ increment base) increment (cons base coll))))
05:18	Dantas	i try to generate this list-generator with tail call and the lazy doesn't works
05:18	Dantas	:(
05:19	pyr	amalloy: i mean
05:19	pyr	i can (apply str [some seq elements])
05:19	Dantas	s / try / tried
05:19	pyr	but I can't (.someMethod object [list of elements])
05:19	pyr	but I can't (apply .someMethod object [list of elements])
05:19	pyr	sorry
05:20	amalloy	pyr: indeed. java objects don't know about clojure seqs, so this makes sense. there are a few ways to do something like it
05:20	amalloy	but they mostly involve reflection or, if the class method supports varargs, mucking with java arrays
05:20	pyr	meh
05:20	pyr	ok
05:24	amalloy	or you could do something like (defn variadic-add-method ([obj] (.add obj)) ([obj x] (.add obj x)) ([obj x y] (.add obj x y))) ... (apply variadic-add-method my-obj [some args])
05:25	angerman	hm. next coding gig will likely involve cakephp.
05:26	pyr	amalloy: yeah i get the point
05:26	pyr	thx
05:27	amalloy	pyr: yeah. in short, it's kinda gross. but it occurs to me you could easily write a macro version of variadic-foo-method
05:27	amalloy	which would expand into a version of foo taking up to N arguments
05:33	pyr	amalloy: that's what i concluded, meaning it's a wrong path :)
05:33	pyr	i'll do it another way
05:33	amalloy	good idea :)
05:58	nachtalp-	hmm... where did clojure.org go? %)
05:59	ejackson	nowhere ?
06:02	nachtalp-	ejackson: i get redirected to some register.com site...
06:03	fliebel	me to
06:03	Fossi	muhaha
06:03	Fossi	seems somebody forgot to renew...
06:03	ejackson	i do not.
06:03	fliebel	ejackson: What if you refresh your dns cache?
06:03	nachtalp-	Fossi: guess so :)
06:03	ejackson	why would I want to break clojure.org :)
06:04	ejackson	i like it
06:04	fliebel	:)
06:04	Fossi	good they have a grace period
06:04	Fossi	nothing worse than having your domain snatched from under your ass
06:12	fliebel	??? (isa? (reify actor (act [this world] this)) actor) => false
06:14	fliebel	uh? oh… (instance? begame.object.actor (reify actor (act [this world] this))) => true
06:15	fliebel	So do I have to use the interface rather than the protocol to check for a relationship?
06:18	joodie	does anyone know of a clojure library containing string "formatting" predicates, like numeric / email / url that sort of thing?
06:30	Dantas	Hi everyone !!! One noob question: To create a lazy-seq the function could not be tail called ? : (defn list-generator [base increment coll] (lazy-seq (list-generator (+ increment base) increment (cons base coll))))
06:31	joodie	Dantas: yes. The tail call in a lazy seq lazy-seq.
06:31	joodie	is lazy-seq
06:32	Dantas	joodie: so cant be tail call ?
06:32	Dantas	joodie: right
06:33	joodie	the point of lazy-seq is that it typically wraps around where you'd normally put your tail call.
06:33	joodie	note that lazy-seq isn't a function.
06:48	xkb	whats the emacs keybinding for clojure aware autocomplete again?
06:48	xkb	so not meta-/
06:51	danbell	when I have swank running, C-C tab
06:51	xkb	does that also work in clojure-mode?
06:51	danbell	you mean w/just normal core symbols?
06:51	danbell	not sure
06:52	xkb	ah it does
06:52	xkb	thanks
06:52	danbell	cool
06:52	xkb	seems meta-tab has the same binding
06:52	danbell	I noticed it's C-C tab when I'm editing a .clj file
06:53	danbell	meta-tab when I'm in the repl
07:36	Chousuke_	eh, clojure.org seems to have expired :\|
07:36	joodie	http://clojure.org/ works for me
07:37	Chousuke_	I get a generic squatter page thingy.
07:37	joodie	hmmm
07:37	Fossi	yeah
07:37	markskilbeck	likewise
07:38	joodie	wierd. maybe someone's messing with the DNS.
07:38	Fossi	no, it went into autorenew
07:38	bartj	likewise
07:40	joodie	74.54.82.222 ?
07:40	bartj	http://www.whois.net/whois/clojure.org
07:41	bartj	Expiration Date:03-Apr-2012 14:24:30 UTC
07:41	Chousuke_	Last Updated On:05-Apr-2011 09:34:35 UTC this one is more interesting
07:42	Chousuke_	so yeah, it probably expired today and that service grabbed it automatically.
07:42	joodie	ah. now it has switched to 75.126.104.177 for me to
07:42	joodie	too
07:42	clgv	clojure.org looks fine right now - but 1.2.1 is missing on downloads page still ;)
07:42	joodie	grrr
07:43	ttmrichter	Doesn't look fine from here.
07:43	ttmrichter	Looks like a squatter.
07:43	Chousuke_	clgv: your dns is probably not updated yet. :/
07:43	clgv	ping clojure.org
07:43	clgv	PING clojure.org (75.126.104.177) 56(84) bytes of data.
07:43	clgv	64 bytes from wikispaces.com (75.126.104.177): icmp_req=1 ttl=51 time=131 ms
07:45	ttmrichter	PING clojure.org (74.54.82.222) 56(84) bytes of data.
07:45	ttmrichter	64 bytes from CAPAHOJE.COM (74.54.82.222): icmp_seq=1 ttl=43 time=267 ms
07:45	Chousuke	clgv: yeah, that's the old ip, but it seems it expired this morning.
07:46	Chousuke	I hope rhickey can get it back :/
07:47	clgv	lol first signs of IP4 address shortage?
07:48	Chousuke	nah, just someone forgetting to renew the domain :P
07:48	clgv	tststs ;)
07:49	fliebel	What would be the most zen way to align 2 maps when iterating? So that {:foo 1 :baz 2} {:foo 3 :bar 4 :baz 1} gets me :foo, 1, 3 first, and then :baz, 1, 2, in some form.
07:50	Chousuke	hmmh
07:50	AWizzArd	fliebel: you could combine the (vals of-your-maps) into a set and map over that.
07:50	AWizzArd	That fn would lookup all vals and combine those too.
07:51	Chousuke	that would lose the key information though
07:51	AWizzArd	ah, not vals but keys I mean
07:52	AWizzArd	In general: if this is not an operation you don't need to do often, then don't care much about maximum efficiency. Just write some code that can do it and continue with other tasks.
07:52	Chousuke	If it is an operation you need to do often, consider finding another data structure. P
07:53	fliebel	something like (map (juxt identity (partial get m1) (partial get m2)) (intersection (keys m1) (keys m2))
07:53	Chousuke	(partial get m1) = m1
07:54	fliebel	ih, right, IFn
07:59	fliebel	Hm, why doesn't keys return a set?
07:59	fliebel	okay, I know...
08:05	fliebel	Chousuke: re data structure: any suggestions?
08:07	Chousuke	hard to say, since I don't know what else you do with it :)
08:09	fliebel	Chousuke: I iterate over it, do collision detection with it, retrieve items by key, align the keys so I can transition from one to the other. So, quite a lot.
08:09	Chousuke	hmm, you might be able to use a sorted map though
08:09	Chousuke	that way you can at least get a seq of items in key order
08:10	fliebel	Chousuke: I don't care about key order much. With a sorted map, two asymmetric maps still don't align.
08:11	AWizzArd	fliebel: why do you have two maps m1 and m2 in the first place?
08:11	AWizzArd	A potentially suitable data structure might be a MultiMap
08:11	pdk	by collision detection
08:11	pdk	are we talking in the physics sense or detecting collisions in the map
08:11	AWizzArd	You can easily simulate one.
08:12	Chousuke	fliebel: Maybe you could even use finger trees? (no idea if you can, but they seem pretty flexible.)
08:13	fliebel	AWizzArd: They represent frames, and in between frames, I generate more frames that smooth the transition. So I can get away with running the game logic a few times per second and still have smooth movement.
08:13	fliebel	pdk: physics, the values of my map have an java.awt.Rectangle.
08:14	fliebel	Chousuke: That would be awesome.
08:15	Chousuke	fliebel: Maybe you can find a suitable measure that will help you determine if a branch in the finger tree needs to be considered for collision detection, or something.
08:17	Fossi	fliebel: i'd really look into literature
08:17	Fossi	there's a ton of specialised data structures for this
08:18	Fossi	might not be immutable though
08:18	fliebel	Chousuke: Right now I sort my map values by the x of the objects and limit the collision detection to the y axis. I had a priority map to do this a while back.
08:19	Fossi	but i guess you could at least look into wings 3d or the like whether they have some clever things
08:21	fliebel	Fossi: Okay, I could study CS and come up with an awesome data structure. But since this is only a 2D game, and not big-data, I'd rather use something that does the job and move on.
08:22	fliebel	But it;s interesting to do nonetheless. I built a quad tree, and then decided it is not what I want.
08:23	fliebel	Chousuke: I think that would be an R-tree. Every branch has a rectangle that contains all its children, if your node is in there, go down.
08:23	AWizzArd	If you do extreme concurrent updates, then locking will do as well as what Clojure already does. If no concurrent updates are required, then a single thread working on a mutable data structure is even faster.
08:23	fliebel	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-tree
08:24	Fossi	hmm, so this is 2d anyway?
08:25	fliebel	yes
08:26	Fossi	i guess that makes things a tad easier :)
08:26	_fogus_	Anyone want to help me proof a draft of a blog post that I want to post today?
08:27	fliebel	_fogus_: Proof? As in checking grammar? I'd like to, but I think you'd better ask a native.
08:28	_fogus_	fliebel: Well, a set of eyes will help tremendously
08:29	_fogus_	http://ietherpad.com/jUpl9dXraQ Please add comments to the document directly. :-)
08:33	kephale00	Isn't one of the primary tasks of a programmer to write new functions for specific tasks? What these people you are addressing call "bloat" stems from the fact that there are indeed many functions that are frequently reused.
08:37	ejackson	_fogus_: I'm game if you're still needing a hand.
08:37	_fogus_	ejackson: Indeed.
08:37	ejackson	shoot
08:38	_fogus_	ejackson: http://ietherpad.com/jUpl9dXraQ
08:40	joodie	I don't see the problem with "bloat". Even Common Lisp isn't halve as large as the JRE.
08:41	ejackson	do you mind if I just put in suggestions ? I'll assume if you disagree you can just pull them out
08:41	joodie	Bloat's only important when you can't find the function you're looking for.
08:41	joodie	We're not living in the early 80s anymore.
08:42	joodie	besides, "clean" != "small"
08:44	joodie	since we're asking for feedback anyway: does anyone have comments on https://github.com/joodie/pretzel ?
08:44	kephale00	Well, the counter argument is that some people haven't upgraded their brain's RAM, so remembering too many functions is an issue for them.
08:44	joodie	and those people use what language? C without the std lib?
08:44	kephale00	as fogus notes, Scheme
08:45	joodie	scheme isn't that small either
08:45	fliebel	I thought scheme was about 90 functions or so?
08:45	kephale00	i dont remember off-hand
08:47	chouser	kephale00: I think that's closer to the source of the consternation
08:48	chouser	or at least a useful question: why do people complain about the "size" of CL (and now Clojure?)
08:49	chouser	do they just hate these languages and will throw anything at them hoping something will stick?
08:49	kephale00	How many people actually are complaining about the size of these languages? The vast majority of active programming languages are growing in size at some rate.
08:49	kephale00	chouser: i think the last point is more on target
08:50	kephale00	Well, i have to admit that i don't have numbers to back up that statement, but from what i've seen at least most languages seem to be growing
08:50	chouser	or do they want to like the language, but find themselves frustrated by something, and (falsely?) identify the source of the problem as the "size"?
08:51	chouser	kephale00: It's probably fair -- what software is shrinking? :-)
08:51	kephale00	BTW, whats the deal with swank-clojure? I saw technomancy talking about it last night, but my dependencies on 1.3.0 are having issues
08:52	fliebel	chouser: What I know for myself, is that it was just the task of finding a function that gets you from x to y.
08:53	fliebel	When you don't know half clojure/core yet, it can be hard a times to find the correct function.
08:53	chouser	fliebel: fair enough. For me, I found reading Common Lisp code nearly overwhelming, and haven't yet pinned down all the reasons.
08:54	fliebel	So I'd say size is not the problem, organization and documentation is.
08:54	kephale00	chouser: well there are some oddities with CL just because of historical artifacts in the language
08:55	chouser	But probably included were: unfamiliarity with parens, no visual distinction between flow-control forms and regular functions, no visual distinction between words defined by the language vs. the user (compounded by the ability to use first and define later)
08:56	chouser	and honestly, complete lack of type declarations probably doesn't help either.
08:57	chouser	it adds up to a whole lot of unfamiliar-looking code, and very few hints about how to start breaking it apart so it can be understood.
08:58	kephale00	chouser: WRT type declarations… people don't seem to complain about that much in Python
08:58	chouser	kephale00: true, but many of those other hints are provided. Flow control looks very different (except perhaps for list comprehension)
08:59	joodie	kephale00: I think that's because clojure attracts more Java programmers
08:59	ttmrichter	chouser: You've hit my historical reason for not liking Lisps there. There's nothing in the code to catch my eye to alert me to "syntactical" elements, etc. It's hard for me to break apart CL and/or Scheme code as a result. It looks like a morass of words, not like structured code.
08:59	TimMc	ttmrichter: I think a lot of that has to do with the terseness, the semantic density.
09:00	chouser	also, foo.bar.baz gives you some "context" for understanding (or guessing) what baz means, in a way that (baz (bar foo)) doesn't really.
09:00	_fogus_	http://blog.fogus.me/2011/04/05/_-count-common-lisp-count-clojure/ Thanks all!
09:00	TimMc	I'm used to skimming Java at high speed, picking up for loops and such, and I have to slow down for Lisps.
09:00	kephale00	Sorry to toss this in the middle of the discussion, but: [WARNING] POM for 'swank-clojure:swank-clojure:pom:1.3.0:compile' is invalid. It will be ignored for artifact resolution. Reason: Not a v4.0.0 POM.
09:00	ttmrichter	TimMc: In terms of semantic density I'll pit Haskell against Lisp any time.
09:00	TimMc	Haha, true.
09:00	ttmrichter	But I don't get this "morass of words without differentiation" vibe from Haskell.
09:01	TimMc	Interesting.
09:01	joodie	morass of punctuation, though :)
09:01	chouser	Clojure does help a little, I think. Square brackets for bindings are a nice little hint.
09:01	joodie	I'm not really kidding.
09:02	ttmrichter	joodie: True. :)
09:02	ttmrichter	But avoiding the pointless style helps in avoiding the more egregious overuse of punctuation.
09:02	Fossi	actually i have the same problem with haskell when i pick it up
09:02	chouser	A very small standard library could help, but of course that has costs that _fogus_ has eloquently described.
09:02	kephale00	ttmrichter: well if you're going to rag on Haskell for punctuation then APL needs to be brought up
09:03	ttmrichter	Part of what attracts me to Clojure -- the first "real" Lisp (and the second Lisp) to do so -- is that there's a small smattering of actual syntax in the language.
09:03	Fossi	because you have to know that the type Webapplication is something like Request -> Response and a whole load of monads
09:03	ttmrichter	() and [] have meanings and can thus catch my eye when reading code, as a simple example.
09:03	_fogus_	EEEPPP! http://clojure.org/
09:03	Fossi	but i guess that's also just not knowing the libraries
09:03	ttmrichter	Some Lisps let me use (), [] and {} at will, but there's no semantic difference between these at all.
09:04	TimMc	_fogus_: WTF
09:04	kephale00	_fogus_: whoa
09:04	chouser	_fogus_: yeah, oops. get someone on that, if it's not too late
09:04	kephale00	i wonder if this has anything to do with my dependencies breaking...
09:04	ttmrichter	Clojure adds some and this shapes my ability to read Clojure code.
09:04	fliebel	(inc clojure.org-discussions) => 3
09:05	clgv	$dec fliebel
09:05	sexpbot	⟹ -1
09:05	clgv	;)
09:05	ttmrichter	In ways I could never read CL or Scheme when I gave them a shot.
09:05	ttmrichter	joodie: I know you're not kidding. There is a certain breed of Haskell programmer (long may they rot in Hell!) who thinks it's somehow meaningful to make "operators" like {{{__^^)))()))))))())}.
09:05	fliebel	clgv: :( Now I feel negative
09:05	clgv	$inc fliebel
09:05	sexpbot	⟹ 0
09:05	clgv	better?
09:05	fliebel	yea
09:06	ttmrichter	Fossi: That's a different level of problem.
09:06	ttmrichter	That's just not knowing the domain the code is embedded in.
09:06	clgv	humm university DNS seems to have cached clojure.org still
09:06	ttmrichter	My problem with Lisps, Fossi, is that I can't even read SIMPLE code. I have to decode it. Every time.
09:07	TimMc	ttmrichter: That's partly a lack of familiarity, I'd guess.
09:07	Fossi	hmmm. dunno, most code in clojure i've seen is pretty application specific
09:07	TimMc	There are a lot of functional idioms that I'm still getting used to.
09:07	Fossi	and if your indention style is sane it's better than java
09:08	ttmrichter	TimMc: Partially, yes. But I have honestly given CL and Scheme the old college try using my standard approach: do all personal projects in the language being targetted for three months at least.
09:08	ttmrichter	It's not functional idioms that bug me.
09:08	ttmrichter	I do Haskell. I do Erlang.
09:08	ttmrichter	I just can't read Lisps. I have to decode them.
09:08	TimMc	huh
09:09	ttmrichter	Take two reasonably complex functions: one in a Lisp (but not Clojure as much) and one in Erlang.
09:09	ttmrichter	I'll be able to skim the Erlang code without much effort, picking out the key things I need to understand in depth.
09:09	clgv	lol the guy linked in fogus' post from Loper OS recommend Mathematica? :P
09:09	ttmrichter	The Lisp code I'll have to read every word in-depth to decode.
09:09	ttmrichter	It's probably a mental defect on my part. :)
09:10	chouser	ttmrichter: are you having any more success with Clojure than with Scheme or CL?
09:11	ttmrichter	Hell yes.
09:11	dnolen	clgv: rhickey recommends Mathematica as well.
09:11	chouser	I hadn't tried Scheme, but had tried CL a couple times and never gotten any traction.
09:11	ttmrichter	I LIKE Clojure.
09:11	ttmrichter	Whereas in the past I've admired Lisps intensely but didn't like them.
09:12	chouser	ttmrichter: very interesting.
09:12	ttmrichter	Lisps are insanely elegant (minus some historical cruft, of course).
09:12	kephale00	does lein check clojure.org for dependencies?
09:12	clgv	dnolen: for real? for what purposes? I'd only recommend Mathematica for symbolic algebra and other tightly math realted tasks
09:12	dnolen	ttmrichter: I used to think similar things about the readability of Lisps, until I read a lot of Scheme. The shape of the code does have meaning.
09:12	ttmrichter	But I've never warmed up to them (Dylan aside) until Clojure.
09:13	ttmrichter	dnolen: I've done Scheme. Had the same problem.
09:13	dnolen	ttmrichter: but did you read a lot of Scheme.
09:14	dnolen	as in not your own code.
09:14	kephale00	gagh.. it does… i guess a custom leiningen until clojure.org comes back up is in order
09:15	ttmrichter	dnolen: I always do. For Scheme I always tried to read library implementations. I think I was using Gambit at the time?
09:15	ttmrichter	Something like that.
09:15	Fossi	kephale00: so leiningen depends on clojure.org being up?
09:15	Fossi	that's pretty bad
09:15	kephale00	Fossi: yeah it does, and yeah it is pretty bad
09:16	kephale00	[WARNING] *** CHECKSUM FAILED - Checksum failed on download: local = '2819a4be8ef8de2268f8d5a91d62cee0026ab531'; remote = '<html>
09:16	kephale00	<head>
09:16	kephale00	<meta' - IGNORING
09:16	kephale00	[WARNING] POM for 'swank-clojure:swank-clojure:pom:1.2.0:compile' is invalid. It will be ignored for artifact resolution. Reason: Not a v4.0.0 POM.
09:16	kephale00	it looks like it is picking up HTML pages in dependency checks
09:16	Fossi	good i didn't start of with a clean deps today :/
09:16	ttmrichter	That's a bit embarrassing having the main web site down and camped.
09:16	ttmrichter	Where by "embarrassing" I mean "infuriating".
09:16	Fossi	it's only the providers page
09:17	Fossi	so, they are the good guys
09:17	ttmrichter	So, find out where these guys are and for a round-trip airline ticket I'll commit an untraceable assassination. :)
09:17	kephale00	lol
09:17	Fossi	basically without them the domain would be up for registration right now
09:17	devn	domains are taken care of
09:17	Fossi	and that would get snaged in a minute :)
09:18	devn	FYI
09:18	ttmrichter	I think they're in Portugal.
09:18	ttmrichter	I'd love to take a trip to Portugal in springtime. :D
09:19	chouser	yay. That was a lot less painful than I feared.
09:20	devn	chouser: lol yeah, a little scary
09:21	chouser	I didn't realize it was the original registrar's page.
09:21	devn	chouser: yeah i thought a squatter had snagged it
09:22	ttmrichter	Ah, if it's not a squatter that's fine.
09:22	ttmrichter	I thought it was a squatter.
09:22	ttmrichter	Damn! No trip to Portugal. :(
09:22	kephale00	fine is a relative term here… : P
09:24	dnolen	ttmrichter: I actually meant like papers - where readability and convention is more important. Libraries not necessarily the best place. I see now that Clojure source follows good Lisp style.
09:26	ttmrichter	Reading papers isn't helpful if I have to read real-world code -- mine and others -- day in and day out while working.
09:26	ttmrichter	Syntax by convention isn't, to my mind, a viable approach to making things work out.
09:26	ttmrichter	I have similar issues with real-world languages, incidentally.
09:27	ttmrichter	English grammar is a nightmare of wasted, "useless" words like "a" and "the" and half the prepositions.
09:27	dnolen	ttmrichter: heh, papers often have a lot of good real world code.
09:27	ttmrichter	Chinese is far simpler as a grammar.
09:27	ttmrichter	I submit that Chinese is harder to learn BECAUSE it has fewer structural words.
09:28	ttmrichter	Even though Chinese is far more regular a language than English could ever hope to be.
09:28	TimMc	ttmrichter: Redundancy plays a big role in readability.
09:28	devn	chinese is hard. trust me on that. :)
09:28	ttmrichter	I don't have to trust you on it devn. I'm living the nightmare. ;)
09:28	TimMc	That's why we have initial capital letters in our sentences.
09:28	ttmrichter	A quick "/whois ttmrichter" can explain why I said that, devn. ;)
09:29	ttmrichter	TimMc: Redundancy and structure signifiers.
09:30	ttmrichter	Words like the articles have no real useful purpose -- but they announce the beginning of a noun phrase.
09:30	ttmrichter	It's obvious we don't need articles, given the huge number of languages that don't have them.
09:31	ttmrichter	But they stick around in Indo-European languages because they do serve a signalling purpose. They provide some structure you can hang your thoughts on, basically, while you're trying to comprehend what someone's saying.
09:31	TimMc	ttmrichter: Your /whois was unenlightening.
09:31	ttmrichter	TimMc: Hmm... It used to have the domain name. You'll have to do a whois on the IP now it seems.
09:31	clgv	ttmrichter: articles carry information in languages like german and french
09:31	ttmrichter	One thing I've noticed with my students (Chinese): if they say something (in English or Chinese) that I don't quite catch, they start over right from the beginning.
09:32	TimMc	hah
09:32	ttmrichter	clgv: In German and French they carry "gender" (which is utterly useless grammatically) and in German they also signal case (which is not so useless, but confusing when mixed with gender).
09:32	fliebel	isa? instance? extends? How do I tell if a record implements a protocol?
09:33	clgv	ttmrichter: why is information about gender useless?
09:33	fliebel	clgv: For 'things' that is, like, a tree is female.
09:34	ttmrichter	German: a man is masculine, a woman is feminine, a boy is masculine, a girl is ... neuter? The f...?
09:35	ttmrichter	Grammatical gender is pointless.
09:35	ttmrichter	Being able to identify gender isn't the same thing as grammatical gender.
09:37	lucian	ttmrichter: i disagree
09:37	fliebel	Can someone please explain me what the difference is between all these type-telling functions?
09:38	lucian	ttmrichter: most latin languages have "configurable" redundancy. you can drop things like pronouns if they're obvious
09:38	TimMc	fliebel: Maybe once clojure.org is back.
09:38	ttmrichter	lucian: How does this make grammatical gender useful?
09:38	fliebel	TimMc: What has clojure.org to do with it?
09:38	ttmrichter	How does marking a tree as feminine (I think) communicate anything of use whatsoever?
09:38	TimMc	fliebel: It's down currently, and I wanted to visit the protocols page. :-)
09:39	lucian	ttmrichter: not a tree, but persons
09:39	lucian	ttmrichter: for the tree it's only a little useful
09:42	fliebel	TimMc: Oh, right… checks his cache
09:44	ttmrichter	lucian: You are confusing grammatical gender and having gender-identifying pronouns.
09:44	ttmrichter	(Although strictly speaking even the latter are optional.)
09:44	lucian	ttmrichter: no, i'm not. english is very crap at this, which is likely why you don't realise the difference
09:44	fliebel	hah! Works for me… They mention extends? as the right thing, but then I need to to (extands? record (class obj))
09:45	ttmrichter	lucian, I am amply familiar both with German and with French.
09:45	lucian	in most latin languages verbs, adjectives, nouns, pronouns, etc. most signify gender and number
09:45	ttmrichter	And passingly familiar with Chinese the hard way.
09:45	lucian	ttmrichter: right, good
09:45	TimMc	fliebel: extends? is the one
09:45	ttmrichter	And, despite this familiarity, I still think that grammatical gender is pointless.
09:45	lucian	ttmrichter: french is a bit the odd one out, sadly. there's less optional than in portuguese or romanian
09:46	ttmrichter	BECAUSE it extends to "things".
09:46	lucian	ttmrichter: it's great for disambiguation
09:46	lucian	even for things
09:46	ttmrichter	Where you get ridiculous things like feminine trees but masculine windows. (Or was it the other way around?)
09:46	lucian	when i say 'want "this female" and "that male"' while pointing, in romanian it's very likely that whoever is next to me knows exactly what i'm saying
09:47	ttmrichter	There's no ambiguity in distinguishing a tree from a window.
09:47	ttmrichter	What, precisely, does grammatical gender add?
09:47	lucian	ttmrichter: redundancy
09:47	lucian	and very cheaply
09:47	ttmrichter	You cut the prospective nouns by 50%.
09:47	ttmrichter	And what happens when you want to talk about a doctor?
09:47	lucian	actually 66%
09:47	ttmrichter	In German a doctor is masculine, if memory serves.
09:48	ttmrichter	But the doctor I'm talking about is female.
09:48	lucian	i'm not familiar with german
09:48	ttmrichter	Suddenly I'm using grammatical masculine and feminine pronouns.
09:48	lucian	there's a similar phenomenon in french, yes
09:48	ttmrichter	This doesn't help, it confuses.
09:48	lucian	but you say 'madame le docteour'
09:49	lucian	it doesn't confuse natives :)
09:49	ttmrichter	Of course it doesn't.
09:49	lucian	but yes, in this case 'le' doesn't help
09:49	lucian	but the 'madame' bit helps
09:49	ttmrichter	Just like the tonal system in Chinese doesn't confuse the Chinese.
09:49	ttmrichter	Much.
09:49	lucian	and when when you say 'elle', it's clear
09:49	lucian	bah, the tonal system is dreadful
09:49	clgv	it's profession nouns that are almost all male except the ones that are historically typical female jobs ;)
09:49	nachtalp-	ttmrichter: german words for both
09:50	nachtalp-	has words, even :)
09:50	ttmrichter	Hell, the Chinese aren't confused despite the fact that the third-person pronoun is THE SAME (in spoken Chinese) for he, she and it.
09:50	ttmrichter	It's amazing what the human brain can internalize.
09:50	lucian	ttmrichter: because they stuff the redundancy somewhere else
09:50	ttmrichter	Well, they don't actually. They just repeat a whole lot more context in cases of misunderstanding.
09:51	lucian	hungarians have the same issue, but they repeat "female" or "male" a lot
09:51	lucian	ttmrichter: EXACTLY
09:51	lucian	more redundancy somewhere else
09:51	ttmrichter	The Chinese language is, to me, like a Lisp, complete with that pudding-like feel. :)
09:51	ttmrichter	There are very few linguistic cues in structure.
09:51	ttmrichter	Which makes it hard to learn if you've learnt anything else first.
09:52	lucian	ttmrichter: if lisp were case and font-sensitive, i might agree :)
09:52	no_mind	if I define a symbol in a namespace dynamically (generated by code), will it be possible to access the defined symbol later from that namespace ?
09:52	waxrose	Lisp is the first language I actually understood.
09:52	waxrose	Scheme to be more accurate.
09:55	clgv	no_mind: you have to intern it for that purpose ##(doc intern)
09:55	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! intern is bad!
09:55	clgv	$source intern
09:56	sexpbot	intern is http://is.gd/ILW2Di
09:56	waxrose	I think most people that are turned off by a Lisp either lack a mathematical background or struggle reading text inside out. :3
09:57	clgv	waxrose: yeah the inside-out isn't natural for europeans or americans, since we read from left to right ...
10:00	thorwil	perhaps too many people make the mistake of expecting to be able to make at least some sense of lisp code, before even reading an explanation of the basics
10:00	waxrose	That too
10:01	ttmrichter	Or, perhaps, but this is probably just crazy talk, not every approach suits every person?
10:02	ttmrichter	Some people are verging very strongly on stereotypical "Smug Lisp Weenie" talk here. This is something that has been refreshingly absent from the Clojure community in the past. It might be nicest if it stayed that way.
10:02	thorwil	ttmrichter: sure, but often approaches are rejected without understanding. which can be reasonable, regarding investment
10:03	ttmrichter	The problem is that this starts to become the assumption followed by the conventional wisdom followed by the perceived truth.
10:03	ttmrichter	Then we get Eric Naggum.
10:07	chouser	thorwil: I think that is the key. There are far too many programming langauges for it to be useful to learn them all.
10:07	chouser	So you have to reject learning some of them without knowing them well enough to be 100% sure for yourself that they ought to be rejected
10:08	thorwil	programming languages are not pokemons!
10:08	chouser	Any conversation trying to convince someone to learn a language (or discussion about someone who has chosen not to) really ought to respect this fact.
10:08	waxrose	chouser, Great book btw... got mine yesterday. :P
10:08	chouser	waxrose: ah great, thanks!
10:10	waxrose	chouser, np :)
10:12	ttmrichter	thorwil: They're not?!
10:12	ttmrichter	Damn, I've been doing this wrong!
10:12	gtrak	clojure, I choose you!
10:12	ttmrichter	s/language/languages/
10:12	sexpbot	<ttmrichter> has a USB stick with about 35 different languages on it last count.
10:13	gtrak	immutable concurrency attack is super effective
10:13	ttmrichter	chouser: You're the author of which book?
10:13	ttmrichter	If it's The Joy of Clojure, I've got that near the top of my reading queue right now.
10:14	clgv	ttmrichter: look up the names on its cover ;)
10:14	ttmrichter	I choose my languages based on what problem I'm trying to solve.
10:14	ttmrichter	I wouldn't want to write an embedded control system in Clojure for example. :D
10:15	gtrak	yea, real-time and GC just don't go well together
10:15	thorwil	ttmrichter: that's what i want to do, too. though it's not easy to even get there, where you really understand the strengths and weaknesses
10:15	ttmrichter	OK, that was mildly unnerving, sexpbot.
10:16	ttmrichter	I'm assuming sexpbot is the 'bot that people use here to do Clojure code snippets?
10:16	waxrose	yar
10:16	Raynes	sexpbot or clojurebot. Either one works.
10:16	ttmrichter	Cover?
10:17	Raynes	I prefer sexpbot, but I'm biased. ;)
10:17	waxrose	How's Meet Clojure doing? :P
10:17	Raynes	waxrose: Smoothly.
10:17	ttmrichter	clgv: Oh, never mind.
10:17	ttmrichter	I wasn't thinking on the right thread there.
10:17	waxrose	great
10:17	ttmrichter	Ah. Chris Houser.
10:17	ttmrichter	Got it.
10:17	clgv	^^
10:18	ttmrichter	Well, I have that book (e-form) solely on the recommendation of a drooling fanboi. :)
10:18	ttmrichter	He basically said it's the best way to learn idiomatic Clojure thinking.
10:18	ttmrichter	So I got it sight unseen (something I don't usually do).
10:19	waxrose	ttmrichter, I'm not allowed to fully read it till I finish Practical & Programming Clojure first. :/
10:19	ttmrichter	Now in my Copious Free Time™ I have to explore it.
10:21	ttmrichter	There's no "Learn You An Clojure" or something like that?
10:21	ttmrichter	I thought that's what all the cool kids did these days. :)
10:21	TimMc	waxrose: Learning to read programs from the bottom up is also a stumbling block for beginners.
10:21	Raynes	ttmrichter: I'm writing something along those lines.
10:21	TimMc	I like to joke that lispies pick up a book and immediately read the ending, then work backwards through the plot. :-)
10:22	Raynes	TimMc: Sounds like something Factor programmers would do.
10:22	waxrose	TimMc, Good point... and lol @ reading it backwards
10:22	clgv	ttmrichter: I am still not formatting in an idiomatic to simplify reading and understanding for myself ;)
10:23	Raynes	Factor programmers would work from beginning to end, but read each chapter from end to beginning.
10:23	clgv	s/idiomatic/idiomatic way/
10:23	sexpbot	<clgv> ttmrichter: I am still not formatting in an idiomatic way to simplify reading and understanding for myself ;)
10:23	ttmrichter	OK, Chapter 1 is reading very nicely.
10:24	thorwil	i wonder if that feature is a blessing
10:24	thorwil	s/blessing/curse/
10:24	sexpbot	<thorwil> i wonder if that feature is a curse
10:24	ttmrichter	waxrose: I've got enough experience in picking up languages that I'll just dive into Joy. (That and I've already read Programming. I leave the decision as to which factor is more important as an exercise.;))
10:24	Raynes	I'm wondering why that feature has been around for around 7 months and everybody is just now noticing it all at once.
10:25	ttmrichter	Raynes: Fads.
10:25	ttmrichter	Someone semi-influential noticed Factor and now it's everybody's toy.
10:25	chouser	thorwil: I generally precede my s///'s with a space
10:25	chouser	Raynes: no offense intended. :-)
10:26	ttmrichter	Me, I looked at Factor and said, "Cool! Someone made a Forth for the 21st century!"
10:26	Raynes	chouser: That's actually what I told people to do. I'd totally disable it if it really bothered anybody. It isn't a huge deal. I do the same thing for title scraping.
10:26	ttmrichter	chouser: Your first chapter bodes well for the book.
10:27	Raynes	It's one of those things that some people really like and others really hate.
10:27	chouser	ttmrichter: thanks! I hope you enjoy it.
10:27	ttmrichter	Well, given the drooling fanboism of the guy who recommended it to me (I really respect his opinions on these matters), I rather think I will.
10:27	chouser	I was pleased to see the printed book takes up no more space on a shelf than Halloway's
10:28	chouser	We really didn't want to create a tome, but seemed frequently in danger of it.
10:28	ttmrichter	I may have to get a hard copy of it actually.
10:28	mefesto	chouser: congrats on the book, just received my copy last friday :)
10:28	ttmrichter	I'm just switching jobs to a Java shop and it may be time to ... subvert. :D
10:29	waxrose	ttmrichter, I will go crazy if I don't read every available book on the subject even if it's outdated. Maybe I suffer from OCD? :3
10:29	ttmrichter	waxrose: You're a programmer. You'd BETTER have OCD!
10:31	waxrose	lol
10:31	waxrose	haha
10:32	ttmrichter	There's a simple test to see if you've got OCD or not.
10:32	ttmrichter	Just answer one simple question: does "anal retentive" properly have a hyphen or not?
10:32	joodie	-
10:32	joodie	:)
10:33	waxrose	Sorry, I stopped reading after the an...
10:33	ttmrichter	joodie: That was the wrong ansewr.
10:33	ttmrichter	s/ansewr/answer/
10:33	sexpbot	<ttmrichter> joodie: That was the wrong answer.
10:33	ttmrichter	The correct answer is "nobody cares!"
10:39	ttmrichter	I'm a little confused by 1.2.3, chouser. How can "code is data" be difficult to grasp for anybody who's ever used an assembler?
10:39	ttmrichter	Or Forth, for that matter. :)
10:39	TimMc	ttmrichter: A great diagnostic image for OCD: http://gallery.burrowowl.net/index.php?q=/image/23547.png
10:39	ttmrichter	Is just going to it proof that you've got it?
10:39	TimMc	Naw, your reaction is diagnostic.
10:40	TimMc	Basically, whether or not the image enrages you. :-)
10:41	chouser	ttmrichter: what percentage of our readers have used assembler, do you think?
10:41	ttmrichter	OK, I'm probably projecting, yeah.
10:41	ttmrichter	I started with and still fall back to assembler.
10:41	TimMc	It's not "code is data" in the same way, though.
10:41	ttmrichter	I mean Hell, I'm trying to relive my youth so I'm writing a cross-assembler for Interdata 16-bit machines so I can program an emulated one. :D
10:42	ttmrichter	Well, no, of course it isn't TimMc. It's a higher-level abstraction of what the Von Neumann architecture posits.
10:42	waxrose	I have yet to have a course on assembler. :/
10:42	ttmrichter	But the NOTION of code and data being one and the same shouldn't be alien.
10:43	ttmrichter	Just some of the implications specific to Lisp's implementation of the concept are going to be weird.
10:43	Raynes	TimMc: That image is agonizing.
10:43	ttmrichter	But the same applies to pretty much any homoiconic language, which includes the Forths and the Prologs.
10:43	TimMc	Raynes: :-D
10:43	ttmrichter	That pencil on the left pisses me off. The rest are fine.
10:43	waxrose	TimMc, That makes me slightly annoyed. :3
10:44	TimMc	waxrose: Same here.
10:44	waxrose	mostly because of the "2 HB" on some pencils and some with out.
10:45	TimMc	ttmrichter: Are you asserting that assembly/machine code is homoiconic?
10:45	ttmrichter	No, but Prolog and Forth are.
10:46	waxrose	Speaking of Neumann... I bought Knuth's AoCP vol 4a yesterday... my brain already hurts
10:46	chouser	I think the brain's tendency to pattern-match without being asked can complicate the understanding of a homoiconic language the first time.
10:47	chouser	Or perhaps it's weaknesses in English when trying to explain it, I'm not sure.
10:47	ttmrichter	chouser: Yeah, that could be a problem. It's a problem that's so far in my past now that I can't recall it, probably.
10:47	clgv	waxrose: lol. you don't love his assembler? ;) I hate it as well, that he didn't just use mathematical pseudocode ...
10:47	ttmrichter	I do know that self-modifying machine language hurt my brain when I first hit it, but it probably prepared me for homoiconic languages.
10:48	waxrose	clgv, lol...He's quite a character to say the least
10:49	clgv	waxrose: I still didn't read his books because of it ;)
10:52	nickik	im reading Interduction to Alorithems and that allready kills me. AoCP is just crazy but if you start reading now you will know a lot about compilerwriting in 2050.
10:52	waxrose	lol
11:01	choffstein	cemerick: any idea why I might be getting "ava.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.amazonaws.ClientConfiguration (rummage.clj:9)" when I am trying to compile a project using rummage?
11:13	joodie	choffstein: did you do a "lein deps" first?
11:13	choffstein	joodie: yeah, but I can't seem to download the aws-java files. So I just grabbed 1.1.5 from the maven repo and installed it myself
11:13	choffstein	which worked before
11:13	choffstein	and doesn't seem to work now...
11:13	joodie	hmmmm
11:14	choffstein	for some reason, the internet connection I am on in my office can't pull the aws jars ... but can pull everything else
11:14	choffstein	and I don't feel like going home just to pull that jar file
11:19	joodie	then I don't know what's going on
11:24	kephale00	oh yeah
11:25	kephale00	watch out for lein deps today
11:25	kephale00	until clojure.org come back lein deps will break things for you
11:26	kephale00	comes back*
11:27	kephale00	choffstein: not saying anything, just tagging you so you get a notification if thats part of your irc prog
11:29	choffstein	alright. thanks :)
11:36	ttmrichter	kephale00: Clojure.org is back for me already.
11:36	Raynes	It depends on your ISP, of course.
11:37	ttmrichter	But it's a sign that things are being returned to normalcy soon.
11:37	kephale00	yes
11:37	kephale00	my day is not lost!
11:37	kephale00	but i am still waiting for it to come back up here
11:37	kephale00	err… to resolve correctly i should say
11:38	TimMc	DNS propagation?
11:39	kephale00	mmm
11:39	TimMc	FOr me, dig retrieves 75.126.104.177 which gets me to wikispaces.com, but my browser still gets the register.com page.
11:40	kephale00	presumably there are some DNS caches that need to be refreshed somewhere in the pipeline
11:40	waxrose	clojure.org is down? Hasn't gone down for me all morning. O_o
11:41	Fossi	that ip shows the wikispace page for me as well
11:41	Fossi	and is what i'm getting from dig
11:41	Fossi	but just clojure.org works again
11:42	kephale00	bah… my dig still gives me ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
11:42	kephale00	clojure.org. 74187 IN NS ns1.expireddomains.register.com.
11:42	kephale00	clojure.org. 74187 IN NS ns2.expireddomains.register.com.
11:42	TimMc	Aha, my proxy is caching it.
11:42	TimMc	I proxy most of Firefox's connections through a school server.
11:43	TimMc	kephale00: I wonder if there's a way to request fresh data.
11:45	kephale00	TimMc: I think I'll just wait it out. I lost enough time regrabbing dependencies from machines that I hadn't tried to do a refresh on.
11:58	choffstein	Anyone using sandbar that could answer a flash question for me?
11:59	choffstein	Namely, I am trying to use hiccup to build my pages and I want to integrate my flash messages, but flash-get always seems to return nil.
12:04	fliebel	Can I Type-hint records?
12:05	fliebel	ehm ,protocols
12:08	choffstein	I am trying to send a string "comma,separated,values" as part of a query string to my RESTful API. When I post it, however, my API gets it in as "comma%2Cseparated%2Cvalues", which my API can't parse
12:08	choffstein	are there any libraries to automatically convert the encoding?
12:10	choffstein	Ahhh...java URLDecoder
12:10	TimMc	choffstein: I see ring.util.codec/url-decode
12:10	choffstein	Ahhhh....even better :D
12:15	dnolen	fliebel: you can type-hints fields to a defrecord/type, you can't type hint args to protocol method.
12:16	fliebel	dnolen: Oh, okay. Weird.
12:18	ttmrichter	It is rare for a computing book to require my looking up a non-computing term in a dictionary....
12:19	ttmrichter	And now I want to pun about Haskell programming and Maenadic approaches.
12:19	Raynes	ttmrichter: You haven't seen anything yet. Wait until cemerick's book is out.
12:22	ejackson	i'm embarrased to have to ask....
12:22	ejackson	but how do I do this:
12:22	ejackson	(repeatedly 20 (fn [] nil))
12:22	ejackson	like a sane person
12:23	amalloy	ejackson: (repeat 20 nil)?
12:23	ejackson	genius !
12:23	ejackson	thank you noble sir
12:24	amalloy	ejackson: see also ##(doc constantly)
12:24	sexpbot	⟹ "([x]); Returns a function that takes any number of arguments and returns x."
12:24	TimMc	ejackson: clojuredocs.org has a good "related functions" feature: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/repeat
12:24	ttmrichter	Raynes: What's cemerick's book?
12:24	ejackson	groovy
12:25	ejackson	The Kickass of Clojure
12:25	Raynes	ttmrichter: Clojure Programming. While being a walking dictionary, he isn't much for naming things.
12:26	amalloy	ttmrichter: see if you can work in a joke about how dryads make the driest maenad jokes
12:26	TeXnomancy	at least it's not called Programming Clojure
12:26	ejackson	yes, but its within commutation.
12:27	ejackson	i'll never keep those straight
12:28	ejackson	speaking of this Raynes.... I had o thought about your title. I know I've used the idea before, but: (meet clojure)
12:29	Raynes	ejackson: Meet Clojure has grown on me significantly.
12:29	ejackson	oh oh... so does foot fungus, if unchecked ;)
12:30	ejackson	just kidding, just kidding.
12:30	Raynes	:>
12:31	ttmrichter	OK, which is Clojure Programming? Is that the old Pragmatic book?
12:31	ejackson	Yeah, Stuart Halloways
12:31	ttmrichter	No, that's Programming Clojure. My bad.
12:31	ejackson	i knew what you meant :)
12:33	ttmrichter	And what is Meet Clojure? Another book? A web site?
12:33	ejackson	that is Raynes' book in production
12:35	ejackson	given that chouser was paid in cookies there are many enthusiastic authors out there... :p
12:35	ttmrichter	Warts too, ejackson.
12:35	ttmrichter	And cancer.
12:36	ejackson	I doubt even a book publisher would pay their authors in warts.
12:37	ejackson	now, the recording industry, well maybe.
12:37	fliebel	?? When I add a type hint to the arg of a type, it gives me IllegalArgumentException: Can't find matching method: foo, leave off hints for auto match.
12:38	ejackson	wrong type ?
12:38	fliebel	Doing the exact same hint in hte places where it's used, it works fine.
12:39	TimMc	fliebel: Gist some example code?
12:39	fliebel	TimMc: I'll distill something.
12:46	no_mind	is there a way to check if a given symbol exists in a namespace ?
12:47	TeXnomancy	(doc resolve)
12:47	TeXnomancy	,(doc resolve)
12:47	fliebel	TimMc: https://gist.github.com/903973
12:48	no_mind	TeXnomancy: resolve throws an exception if symbol does not exist. I am looing for a neater way
12:48	TeXnomancy	ns-resolve looks to be safer, though it will throw if the ns doesn't exist.
12:50	no_mind	TeXnomancy: ns-exists for sure
12:50	cemerick	choffstein: the AWS jar isn't on your compilation classpath. It's baffling to me that you continue to have dependency issues there. :-(
12:51	choffstein	cemerick: it's only when I am at my office. it's crazy.
12:51	cemerick	ttmrichter, Raynes: I think you'll find that our book is going to be mostly lacking in esoterica.
12:51	choffstein	cemerick: but not when I am at home.
12:51	cemerick	choffstein: That is quite the crazy network issue.
12:51	choffstein	I know
12:52	cemerick	But, it makes me feel a little better that it's isolated.
12:52	cemerick	choffstein: maybe your office's network blocks any url with "amazon" in it?
12:52	TimMc	That would be nuts.
12:52	cemerick	bad browsing filters gone amok, etc
12:52	choffstein	nah, I'm on AWS right now ;)
12:52	ejackson	cemerick: what's the focus/theme/flavour gonna be ?
12:52	cemerick	oh well :-)
12:53	TimMc	fliebel: Interesting. I've never worked with reify, but that is odd behavior.
12:53	cemerick	choffstein: it'd be interesting to see a tcpdump of you attempting to pull dependencies from the office.
12:53	TimMc	I verified that it does indeed use reflection there.
12:54	fliebel	TimMc: Yea, weird, eh?
12:55	fliebel	Maybe cemerick or ejackson know… https://gist.github.com/903973 < type hint blows
12:55	ejackson	fliebel: lemme have a look.... don't hold your breath :)
12:55	TimMc	Clojure doesn't complain when I put ^String in the protocol's definition instead, interestingly -- but it still ends up using reflection.
12:56	TimMc	fliebel: Hold someone else's. :-P
12:56	ejackson	do you have to typehint the protocol definition perhaps ?
12:56	ejackson	just guessing here
12:56	TimMc	ejackson: I tried that.
12:56	fliebel	TimMc: Yea, the protocol hint just gets ignored.
12:56	ejackson	:)
12:56	cemerick	ejackson: oriented towards engaged Java devs and those that use popular dynamic languages like Ruby and Python. It's also something of a duplex book; part is purely language-related, part is purely domain-specific.
12:56	fliebel	Putting the hint on the substring s works.
12:57	cemerick	s/purely/mostly
12:57	sexpbot	<cemerick> ejackson: oriented towards engaged Java devs and those that use popular dynamic languages like Ruby and Python. It's also something of a duplex book; part is mostly language-related, part is mostly domain-specific.
12:57	ejackson	cemerick: that tremendous. It was a double whammy for me coming from the ruby world to have to learn lisp and the java ecosystem in one bite.
12:58	cemerick	ejackson: Yeah, we're hoping to take the sting out of that process a bit, though it's not in the drafts at all yet.
12:58	TimMc	Indeed. Most Clojure guides I've seen assume a Java background.
12:58	TimMc	It makes Clojure seem like an auxiliary language rather than its own thing.
12:59	Raynes	TimMc: Mine doesn't! :D
12:59	TimMc	Yay!
13:00	cemerick	TimMc: well, in a lot of ways, it's not. Clojure without the JVM or its libraries (or, those of some host) wouldn't be even a tenth as useful or popular.
13:01	cemerick	i.e. go throw together a genius of a language with its own runtime, and see how the crickets sing
13:01	TimMc	fair
13:01	ejackson	its true. coming from ruby where the runtime is a dog, having the JVM is magic.
13:01	dnolen	fliebel: like I said earlier protocol fns cannot be type hinted.
13:02	kephale00	speaking of Clojure off of the JVM, has anyone been playing with the CLR version
13:02	cemerick	That's why ClojureScript – when it's revisited and fully-baked – will be a revelation.
13:02	fliebel	dnolen: I know, but you said their implementations cant;right?
13:02	fliebel	*can, right?
13:03	dnolen	fliebel: no, you can't type hint defprotocol, nor implementations.
13:03	TimMc	So, that does "leave off hints for auto match" mean then?
13:03	TimMc	*what
13:03	dnolen	if you need to hint something you need to hint the symbol, or hint in a let binding as usual.
13:04	TimMc	Does it mean that type hints interfere with connecting up implementations with specifications?
13:04	cemerick	kephale00: there are a couple of people on the ML that are using it -- I can't say I've ever seen much chatter about it in the channel.
13:04	dnolen	TimMc: the type hint stuff is for definterface as far as I can tell.
13:05	kephale00	aha
13:06	no_mind	technomancy: ns-reolve works but I have another problem. I need to check for a symbol which is the value of a var
13:07	TimMc	dnolen: I think I understand, thanks.
13:12	dnolen	TimMc: fliebel: an example, https://gist.github.com/904024
13:13	fliebel	dnolen: Cool, so when I do a record, it also does this?
13:14	dnolen	fliebel: if you are implementing an interface yes you can do that. but interfaces are about methods, methods are not first class.
13:14	dnolen	protocols create functions.
13:15	fliebel	right, so unless I need Java interop, no type hints on records
13:32	Raynes	http://www.clojure-conj.org/ Now accepting talk submissions.
13:32	Raynes	cemerick: Quick, convince me to submit a talk before I get stage fright.
13:34	cemerick	Raynes: do it now so you can beat yourself into a robust public speaker. Life sucks just a little more if one is afraid of / not good at public speaking.
13:34	cemerick	Not that I'm good at it, just a lot better than I used to be.
13:34	Raynes	cemerick: Me and amalloy were talking about talks a while back. I actually do have one idea that I might propose. The second one will be tricksy.
13:35	Raynes	amalloy and I* inb4grammarnatzi
13:35	amalloy	nicely done, sir
13:36	Raynes	I only wish they'd allow for a joint talk with amalloy and I both, that way I could hoist him up on my shoulders and we could talk in unison.
13:36	amalloy	sounds way too creepy for me
13:38	cemerick	I think there should be an author's roundtable at the start of the conj, so that everyone can throw their rotten fruit at their least favorites in the beginning and get it over with. :-D
13:49	ejackson	this conj sounds better-and-better all the time :)
13:50	redinger	cemerick: Please send that proposal and a list of all the authors I need to get on board. :)
13:50	redinger	Raynes: You could certainly do a joint talk with amalloy. Up to you if you really need to hoist him up
13:50	cemerick	redinger: Ha! They're all going to stand in a line, with me in front with a big umbrella. ;-)
13:51	amalloy	haha
13:52	ejackson	hmmm.... I'll see if I can come up with anything interesting to propose saying
13:52	cemerick	ejackson: will you be making the trip?
13:52	ejackson	that is a function of money :)
13:53	ejackson	i maintain my optimism, though, and hope to make it.
13:53	cemerick	That'd be stellar. :-)
13:53	ejackson	thank you, yes it would be awesome.
13:54	cemerick	All of the eurozone Clojure folks should pool in for a netjets (or whatever) booking. Might actually be cheaper than commercial tickets if there's enough people interested.
13:54	ejackson	I freaking love it
13:56	ejackson	cemerick: do you have Dutch ancestry ?
13:56	cemerick	ejackson: German, Russian, French, Native American
13:58	cemerick	Along with some North African if that kooky "heritage" genetic test was worth anything.
13:59	ejackson	hmmm...
14:33	fliebel	cemerick: What is that airplane pooling you proposed? I'd love a java.util.concurrent.AirplanePoolExecutor. http://airplanepoolexecutor.eu/ is still free :)
14:34	fliebel	(fly! AirplanePoolExecutor conj fliebel)
14:35	cemerick	fliebel: netjets is the one that comes to mind, though IIRC they're fundamentally U.S.-based.
14:39	ejackson	cemerick: no they operate here too
14:39	ejackson	but I don't think I can afford to even ask what they charge
14:40	cemerick	ejackson: A friend of mine whose company used them for a brief period said that it was definitely cheaper than commercial tickets as long as you maximized capacity.
14:41	ejackson	Well then ! I shall investigate :)
14:41	cemerick	If that actually happens though, I want to be on the tarmac to see lpetit, cgrand, fliebel, and ejackson stepping off the jetway. :-P
14:41	fliebel	In that case I love the idea. If I can find out more, I could set up a simple registration/pledge service on http://airplanepoolexecutor.eu/ :P
14:42	ejackson	lol - that would be rather magical
14:43	ejackson	i suspect fliebel is in for an icy shower.
14:46	fliebel	ejackson: puh, we'll see :)
14:46	Raynes	I took icy showers for the majority of the summer before last in an attempt to raise my cold tolerance.
14:47	ejackson	Raynes: in preparation for .... ?
14:47	Raynes	Winter?
14:47	Raynes	Nothing in particular.
14:47	fliebel	Ah, some numbers finally… http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071210142517AAkga0Y
14:47	ejackson	:) I like your stiyle.
14:48	fliebel	Any europeans with a pilot license? :D
14:48	ejackson	cemerick: see what madness you have wrought !
14:50	cemerick	ejackson: gawd, that almost sounds plausible. 6 hrs * $2k / 10 people maybe?
14:51	cemerick	It'll probably get nuked by it being functionally two one-way trips (at least as far as the charter company is concerned).
14:53	technomancy	if we're seeing checksum mismatches downloading a pom from maven central... is that the kind of thing that deserves a bug report?
14:54	ejackson	cemerick: ok, I just called NetJets to figure it out. They won't tell me immediately, but are preparing a quote
14:54	cemerick	ejackson: ha, this is great
14:54	fliebel	ejackson: cool!
14:54	cemerick	technomancy: yeah, that's no good
14:55	ejackson	my wife's face was a study...
14:55	TimMc	I totally need to make it to the Conj.
14:56	TimMc	I'm going to see about taking Amtrak down.
14:58	TimMc	Uh... is the conj free?
14:58	ejackson	pish - cemerick will fly you in his jet.
14:59	Raynes	cemerick: As of the 2010 census, the population is listed as 130 here in Eldridge now. :o
14:59	TimMc	I understand the organizers are "still putting the finishing touches on the logistical details", but it would be nice to know the order of magnitude of the cost of attending.
14:59	cemerick	Raynes: not a lot for people to stay for, I guess? :-(
15:00	ejackson	130 !
15:00	cemerick	TimMc: last year was, what, $200 each?
15:00	amalloy	TimMc: probably about the same as last year
15:00	TimMc	Maybe my company will spring for it. :-P
15:01	technomancy	just confirmed the checksum mismatch in straight maven. it's (ironically) on bouncycastle
15:01	cemerick	technomancy: of all things! :-O
15:02	amalloy	technomancy: genius
15:02	fliebel	oh, dang, documentation… goes of writing ejackson, let me know when you get the quote.
15:03	ejackson	fliebel: you got it.
15:03	fliebel	huh, I got the quote?
15:03	amalloy	fliebel: american idioms tricking you again, sounds like
15:03	TimMc	fliebel: No, you'll get it. :-)
15:04	amalloy	"you got it": "okay, i'll do what you just said"
15:04	fliebel	I guess so… can;t we do the conj in Europe next time :P
15:04	Fossi	+1 ;D
15:05	raek	I need to make it to the conj too
15:05	raek	in Europe would be nice...
15:05	Fossi	if it weren't such a pain to organise such a thing :/
15:06	fliebel	Fossi: I never tried it. What is the pain?
15:07	Raynes	Fossi: Wrong.
15:07	Raynes	(inc fliebel)
15:07	sexpbot	⟹ 1
15:07	amalloy	Raynes: only if you think he was +1 ing fliebel, rather than the idea of a euroconj
15:08	Raynes	raek: Man, Europe would require a passport and all sorts of nasty things, like a really long flight. You aren't worth it.
15:08	Fossi	i totally wouldn't want to +1 fliebel
15:08	Raynes	(dec euroconj) ; cause I'm selfish
15:08	Fossi	fliebel: mostly getting a location i guess, and then some
15:09	Fossi	like talks/topics, food, etc pp
15:09	Raynes	I was almost hoping for a California conj this year. Would have given me an excuse to go to California.
15:10	gtrak	(inc inc)
15:10	sexpbot	⟹ 1
15:10	ejackson	a caliconj
15:11	amalloy	Raynes: you need excuses? california is great, qed
15:11	Fossi	i've just been to the European Lisp Symposium, which was great, but that's because it was in town :)
15:11	TimMc	In Europe, everything is in town.
15:11	Fossi	more like, literally
15:11	Raynes	amalloy: I need a significant reason to spend money to travel to California.
15:12	TimMc	Where was the last conj held?
15:12	amalloy	come rob a bank
15:12	amalloy	TimMc: same location
15:12	Fossi	:D
15:12	TimMc	Oh right... Rich lives in NC, yeah?
15:12	Fossi	best reason ever to go anywhere
15:12	Fossi	"come here, rob a bank"
15:12	Fossi	i can even see it in television ads
15:13	amalloy	Fossi: it worked for vegas. "come here, steal us silly, we're bad gamblers"
15:13	Fossi	did it?
15:13	Fossi	americans must be dumber than i thought on average
15:14	Fossi	all people i know from vegas are really good gamblers/poker players
15:14	cemerick	TimMc: Rich lives outside of NYC
15:14	TimMc	Who lives in NC then!
15:14	cemerick	Most of Relevance.
15:14	TimMc	aha
15:18	amalloy	Fossi: i don't think the residents are especially good gamblers; the point is that the casinos have a clear edge
15:19	Fossi	well, there are quite some people living in vegas making a living off bad poker players
15:19	amalloy	sure
15:19	Fossi	but yeah, that's more or less the only game where that's the case
15:19	Fossi	and there's more money in the others
15:32	fliebel	Can I put docstuff on records? The docstuff of defrecord does not mention it.
15:33	kotarak	Records are classes not Vars.
15:34	fliebel	kotarak: But they implement IObj
15:34	kotarak	fliebel: the instances
15:35	fliebel	true
15:36	kotarak	fliebel: functions now also contain metadata (including the docstrings), but you can't type (doc MyRecord).
15:36	kotarak	fliebel: maybe some kind of javadoc might emerge sometime...
15:36	fliebel	:)
15:36	fliebel	I'll start writing /** doc */ above my record and see what happens.
15:39	raek	fliebel: you can put docstuff on protocols, though
15:39	fliebel	raek: I know, but thanks :)
15:48	gigamonk`	Hmmm, is there a design philosophy that leads 'get' to return nil if its first argument is not a map?
15:48	amalloy	gigamonkey: clojure hates exceptions
15:49	gtrak	gigamonkey, also it doesn't use {}
15:49	amalloy	&(get {:a 1} :b) ; same reason as this, i think
15:49	sexpbot	⟹ nil
15:49	gtrak	or (), rather, nil is preferred over the empty set
15:50	gigamonkey	amalloy: well, there's a distinction one could draw--if one wished--between looking for a key that's not present in a map and looking for a key in something that is not a map.
15:50	amalloy	gigamonkey: fwiw, you can make it return something other than nil if you prefer, though i don't think you can easily distinguish between not-found and not-a-map using just get - ##(get 10 :k "Wait what?")
15:50	sexpbot	⟹ "Wait what?"
15:51	hiredman_	gigamonkey: get is not map? if you want to test for the mappiness of a thing, get is not the tool to do it
15:51	amalloy	gigamonkey: feel free to draw that distinction yourself before calling get
15:51	hiredman_	,(doc map?)
15:51	hiredman_	,(doc get)
15:51	hiredman_	clojurebot: ping?
15:52	amalloy	or, if you want an exception, you could call the "maybe-map-thing" as a function: ##(10 :k)
15:52	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
15:52	gigamonkey	hiredman_: sure. And I can see the convenience of its behavior. On the other hand it makes it harder to catch inadvertant type errors.
15:52	amalloy	&({:k :v} :k)
15:52	sexpbot	⟹ :v
15:52	hiredman_	gigamonkey: then go use scala, please /part the channel on your way out
15:52	gigamonkey	E.g. (get :foo {:foo 10}) => nil
15:53	amalloy	gigamonkey: wut. that's not a type error
15:53	amalloy	is it? maybe it is. i never use get
15:53	amalloy	&(get :foo {:foo 10})
15:53	sexpbot	⟹ nil
15:53	gigamonkey	amalloy: well, it is if you meant to say (get {:foo 10} :foo)
15:53	amalloy	gigamonkey: i rarely need to actually use get
15:54	amalloy	i just write ##(:foo {:foo 10})
15:54	sexpbot	⟹ 10
15:54	hiredman_	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L620
15:54	gigamonkey	amalloy: well, the same thing happens with (:foo whatever) since it turns into a call got get, presumably.
15:54	cemerick	hiredman_: in a channel-purging mood, I take it?
15:54	amalloy	gigamonkey: yes, but you won't get the parameters out of order this way
15:54	gigamonkey	hiredman_: this isn't about static vs dynamic typing. It's about API design. You can make everything mean something bat that's not always the best policy.
15:55	gigamonkey	s/bat/but/
15:55	sexpbot	<gigamonkey> hiredman_: this isn't about static vs dynamic typing. It's about API design. You can make everything mean something but that's not always the best policy.
15:55	amalloy	which is what you objected to in the (get :foo m) case
15:55	hiredman_	cemerick: I smell common lisp
15:55	gigamonkey	heh. Didn't know that would trigger the bot.
15:55	cemerick	hiredman_: Good enough. This is a polyglot boarding house.
15:56	amalloy	gigamonkey: pop quiz: do you find the execution of your s/foo/bar thing to be a desirable feature or annoying?
15:57	fliebel	Is this grammatically valid? "Returns a seq of pairs. Every pair is a set of keys whose objects' Rectangles intersect"
15:57	gigamonkey	amalloy: seems a little silly to me. But kind of cute.
15:57	hiredman_	cemerick: common lispers have an annoying habbit of complaining that clojure isn't common lisp
15:58	amalloy	fliebel: definitely okay grammatically. not sure i follow the actual meaning, specifically "every pair is a set of keys"
15:58	cemerick	hiredman_: And some people who like python complain that sexprs don't look like python. In neither case is it reason to wave someone away.
15:58	fliebel	amalloy: I'm open to better explanations. It returns somwthing like [#{:a :b}] which means :a and :b are colliding.
15:58	hiredman_	cemerick: if that is all they do, and they do it very vocally, I think it is
15:59	gigamonkey	hiredman_: and some folks just want to understand the difference. Certainly Lisps other than Common Lisp have a tradition of typechecking arguments dynamically.
15:59	gigamonkey	Thus my question about whether there was a design philosophy that lead to the (slightly surprising) choice in the 'get' API.
16:00	cemerick	hiredman_: Well, gigamonkey isn't anywhere near being a troll, or a disturbance. Inviting a /part is just rude.
16:00	amalloy	fliebel: i'd say "returns a seq of sets. each set contains two objects whose rectangles intersect"
16:00	amalloy	saying that a pair "is a set" reads confusingly, to me
16:00	fliebel	amalloy: Not objects, they keys corresponding to the objects.
16:01	thorwil	fliebel: that "whose" makes me uneasy. how about "Returns a seq of pairs. Every pair is a set of keys belonging to intersecting rectangles (/rectangle objects)"
16:01	dnolen	gigamonkey: get is actually more generic in it's behavior than just applying to maps, it should
16:01	dnolen	the docstring should probably updated
16:01	dnolen	internally the runtime refers to coll, not map as the first arg.
16:01	gigamonkey	dnolen: so what else can it fruitfully be applied to?
16:02	amalloy	gigamonkey: anything that implements ILookup
16:02	amalloy	builtins include maps, sets, and vectors
16:02	dnolen	instance of Map, array, string, objects that implement ILookUp, IPersistentSet
16:02	amalloy	&(get [1 5 8] 2)
16:02	sexpbot	⟹ 8
16:03	fliebel	thorwil: The problem is that there are keys to look up an object and the objects have a Rectangle.
16:04	dnolen	gigamonkey: in your own code if you wish to enforce maps, preconditions are definitely worth looking into, just redefine get.
16:05	dnolen	gigamonkey: define your own get in your own namespace I mean.
16:05	gigamonkey	I guess another question I could have asked is: is it considered good or poor form to take advantage of the fact that get (or :keywords as functions) will happily return nil if passed a non-map?
16:05	fliebel	"Returns a seq of sets. Every set contains two keys of objects that have intersecting Rectangles."
16:06	amalloy	fliebel: sounds okay to me. it seems a little awkward to be passing around keys to objects instead of the objects themselves, but that's part of your API (though it influences the docs)
16:06	gigamonkey	I was looking at some code that walked a tree of maps calling (:type node) as it went. I was wondering what was going to happen when it hit the leaves which were not maps.
16:06	gigamonkey	So in this case it was handy, if a bit surprising to me, that it worked that way.
16:07	gigamonkey	Speaking of which, could one use :foo as a dispatch function in a multi-method?
16:07	fliebel	amalloy: Objects "change", keys don't, so only keys are a reliable way to tell which object you're colliding with.
16:07	amalloy	gigamonkey: yes, for sure
16:08	amalloy	gigamonkey: also, you've just made me realize that some code i wrote yesterday could have made use of the get-works-on-non-maps feature
16:08	gigamonkey	amalloy: great, I've unleashed a monster! ;-)
16:08	amalloy	probably not worth the extra documentation it would need, though
16:09	fliebel	I always assume everything works on everything unless proven otherwise. I'm still disappointed you can't dissoc a vector.
16:09	dnolen	gigamonkey: seems like fairly reasonable to think that get will always return nil based on what's going on the Java source if not given a type which it can handle. but perhaps something to bring up on the ML and get some more informed opinions.
16:11	gigamonkey	dnolen: I'd say the docs should at least say what types it accepts as arguments. If it's all types, that's fine but they should say so.
16:12	gigamonkey	(Is the clojure type system a latice and if so what's at the top?)
16:12	dnolen	gigamonkey: sure, like I said worth bringing up on the ML.
16:12	amalloy	gigamonkey: lattices don't necessarily have a top; that would be a tree
16:12	amalloy	however, it is in fact a tree, and the top is Object, since it's hosted on java
16:13	gigamonkey	amalloy: and all primitives are boxed?
16:13	amalloy	gigamonkey: ish
16:13	dnolen	gigamonkey: clojure interface and their relationships are quite slick, tho not well documented beyond Java source.
16:13	dnolen	gigamonkey: 1.3 allows unboxed primitives to flow in and out of functions.
16:14	amalloy	real-java has primitives, and clojure can use them, but we're fairly limited in how. 1.3 will improve the situation but it still won't make primitives as first-class
16:15	dnolen	gigamonkey: Clojure version of structs, defrecord/type, can have unboxed primitive fields. you can have unboxed arrays of primitives.
16:15	ataggart	and unboxed vectors
16:16	dnolen	gigamonkey: 1.3 also ensures that float literals are treated as unboxed double, and integer literals as unboxed long.
17:59	gigamonkey	Uh, did clojure.org just go down or expire or something?
17:59	gigamonkey	I'm getting a big fat register.com ad.
17:59	jla	looks fine to me
17:59	opqdonut_	works for me
18:00	opqdonut_	Last Updated On:05-Apr-2011 13:09:16 UTC
18:00	opqdonut_	Expiration Date:03-Apr-2013 14:24:30 UTC
18:00	opqdonut_	sez whois
18:00	gigamonkey	Weird.
18:00	kephale00	its been down all day
18:00	kephale00	i still don't have it
18:00	kephale00	some folks have it cached
18:01	amalloy	gigamonkey: read the mailing list
18:01	amalloy	there was an issue this morning, dns is propagating
18:01	jla	not cached, can do live searches
18:01	gigamonkey	amalloy: what mailing list?
18:01	kephale00	hm
18:02	clojurebot	hmm, maybe my repl is out of wack
18:02	kephale00	gotcha
18:02	amalloy	$google clojure google group
18:02	sexpbot	First out of 13300 results is: Clojure \| Google Groups
18:02	sexpbot	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure
18:02	gigamonkey	Heh: "Discussions aren't available right now. We're sorry. Try again shortly."
18:03	amalloy	that's what happens when you use a startup like google to host your website
18:03	amalloy	fwiw they load fine for me
18:03	amalloy	(both the group page and clojure.org)
18:05	gigamonkey	So I was going to clojure.org to try and find more information about the implementation of maps in Clojure. Anyone have any good pointers to whre I can read about the actual data structures used?
18:06	amalloy	$google higher order persistent vector clojure hash
18:06	sexpbot	First out of 253 results is: Clojure - data_structures
18:06	sexpbot	http://clojure.org/data_structures
18:06	amalloy	hmph
18:06	amalloy	gigamonkey: higher order is a blog someone (rich?) runs, with a good description of that topic
18:07	technomancy	gigamonkey: http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/ <= for vectors
18:07	technomancy	I believe the others are taken from Okasaki?
18:14	gigamonkey	technomancy: yeah, I was hoping for some pointers into what things in particular to read about in Okasaki.
18:14	gigamonkey	But thanks for the link, that's a start.
18:23	gigamonkey	So fn? returns false for keywords. Is there a predicate for things that implement IFn?
18:23	brehaut	gigamonkey: ifn?
18:24	gigamonkey	Tada! Thanks.
18:24	amalloy	brehaut: too easy
18:24	brehaut	amalloy: im all about the low hanging fruit
18:24	seancorfield	,(find-doc "ifn")
18:24	clojurebot	-------------------------
18:24	clojurebot	clojure.core/ifn?
18:24	clojurebot	([x])
18:24	clojurebot	Returns true if x implements IFn. Note that many data structures
18:24	clojurebot	(e.g. sets and maps) implement IFn
18:25	gigamonkey	Though that's a pretty gross name.
18:25	gigamonkey	How about callable?
18:25	brehaut	gigamonkey: because callable is different to IFn
18:25	gigamonkey	I don't see it in the index.
18:25	amalloy	gigamonkey: it's a java interface
18:26	brehaut	gigamonkey: callable and runable are java interfaces, ifn is a clojure interface
18:26	amalloy	gigamonkey: still: the power is yours! (def callable? ifn?) ; bam!
18:26	seancorfield	it's fairly consistent with many of the other does x implement y function names :)
18:26	seancorfield	,(doc reversible?)
18:26	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements Reversible"
18:27	seancorfield	,(doc sequential?)
18:27	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements Sequential"
18:27	gigamonkey	I guess I'm just wishing Clojure were not sitting on top of Java.
18:27	seancorfield	etc...
18:27	amalloy	gigamonkey: a misguided desire. it couldn't get nearly as popular that way
18:28	gigamonkey	amalloy: sure. But I wrote a book about Common Lisp. I don't care about popular. ;-)
18:28	technomancy	now /me just wishes the JVM took unix seriously
18:28	amalloy	fine fine. couldn't have as many useful libraries available either
18:29	amalloy	it's very handy to just reach out and grab some java
18:30	seancorfield	if clojure didn't run on the jvm, i wouldn't be using it (even tho' i like lisp)
18:31	brehaut	seancorfield: probably because rich would still be writing the jit, gc, binary format, build tools, etc :P
18:31	seancorfield	i can't use lisp in my day-to-day work - but i can anything that runs on the jvm
18:31	seancorfield	i think it's great that we have so many languages targeting the jvm (for all its faults)
18:31	seancorfield	i can mix clojure, scala, groovy, jruby, jython, cfml...
18:32	devn	we're living in a polyglot world
18:32	seancorfield	ok, so i'm not actually using all of those... but i have the choice, and i like choice!
18:33	devn	choice is great until you have so many of them you become paralyzed
18:33	technomancy	is jython still active?
18:33	devn	i dont believe so
18:33	devn	err i think microsoft killed iron____
18:33	devn	but im not sure about jython
18:33	jla	usually wish that clojure didn't run on jvm. recently been programming python. now missing maven.
18:34	technomancy	a former jython lead came to one of the early seajure meetings
18:34	devn	technomancy: does seajure make its meeting available online
18:34	brehaut	the former jython (Jim Huginin) lead stopped working on jython to work on iron python i believe
18:34	seancorfield	jython looks pretty active to me... 2.5.2 released a month ago... django 1.2.0b1 released too
18:34	brehaut	and jython isnt dead
18:35	technomancy	devn: we don't have presentations, so that wouldn't really work
18:35	technomancy	unless you mean being able to SSH into the tmux session as it's happening... we could arrange something =)
18:35	gigamonkey	Does clojure have a construct you can use when you want a macro to expand into multiple top-level forms (e.g. multiple defn's or something)
18:35	devn	im trying to get a meetup group going here in Madison, WI -- we have so many folks to the south in Chicago and ive been doing the meetup group regardless
18:35	devn	technomancy: actually... that sounds great.
18:35	brehaut	jython has just always lagged behind cython and has (for some reason) got a lot of py community antipathy, so it gets a lot less attention than it really deserves
18:36	brehaut	gigamonkey: (do (def …) (def …) …)
18:36	technomancy	devn: well without audio I'm not sure how interesting it would be. crowded coffee shops aren't the best recording/speakerphone environments.
18:36	gigamonkey	brehaut: thanks.
18:36	kotarak	How can I force a full gc?
18:37	gigamonkey	Hmmmm. I don't see 'do' in the API table of contents.
18:37	devn	technomancy: what if I bankrolled a decent mic or something to help out in that department?
18:37	amalloy	gigamonkey: it's a special form: ##(doc do)
18:37	sexpbot	⟹ "Special Form: Please see http://clojure.org/special_forms#do"
18:37	brehaut	kotarak: i think you can call System.gc() or something, but it only a hint?
18:38	gigamonkey	Yup. Just got there.
18:38	kotarak	It seems that things are not released, where they should be. But I don't know whether this some gc or not.
18:38	amalloy	gigamonkey: incidentally, aside from the valuable learning experience of doing this yourself once, you don't need to write a macro to expand into a do form yourself
18:38	technomancy	devn: sorry to backtrack on my claim; heh. I keep pretty busy running the show to add something like that, but you could post to the mailing list and see if someone could help you out there.
18:39	devn	technomancy: no worries, i dont blame you -- it would not be easy, but even just looking at the screen sessions would be nice
18:40	amalloy	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/test-is-api.html#clojure.contrib.test-is/do-template and https://github.com/amalloy/amalloy-utils/blob/master/src/amalloy/utils/macro.clj#L26 both do that for you already
18:40	technomancy	devn: the code always goes on http://github.com/Seajure in its final form too
18:41	gigamonkey	amalloy: actually I was thinking of generating different top-level forms, not looping like those seem to.
18:41	gigamonkey	I want to define a defn and maybe a few defmethods.
18:41	amalloy	gigamonkey: ah. for totally different forms, yes
18:43	amalloy	wait, i don't get it. either you're using a macro only once, in which case either you're not saving any typing or you could use anon-macro; or you're defining a macro that expands into various things and then calling it more than once - in that case, macro-do would be useful
18:45	gigamonkey	I want, say, (deffoo bar [baz quux]) to expand into a (defn new-bar ...) and a (defmethod something :bar ...) and a (defmethod somethingelse :bar ...)
18:46	gigamonkey	Or rather, all those things wrapped in a 'do'
18:47	Raynes	gigamonkey: You're the Practical Lisp guy, aren't you? :o
18:47	gigamonkey	Raynes: yes. Practical Common Lisp, to be absolutely precise.
18:47	Raynes	Pleasure to meet you. <3
18:47	gigamonkey	Likewise.
18:48	Raynes	Welcome to Clojureland.
18:49	amalloy	gigamonkey: that's pure gold. Raynes is always annoyed with people saying lisp when they mean common lisp, and now the tables have turned
18:50	Raynes	amalloy: I actually thought the book was called Practical Lisp. It's been a long time since I looked at it.
18:50	amalloy	i know
19:12	gigamonkey	How do I tell a multimethod to use a specific hierarchy?
19:12	gigamonkey	Ah :hierarchy option
19:15	gmaggior	hello. Sorry for newbie question. I'm using clojure on a ubuntu bash terminal, when I press up_arrow, left_arrow ,etc to edit the line strange characters appear. Is there a way to edit the clojure REPL command line?
19:16	gigamonkey	What's wrong with this: (defmulti foo identity :hierarchy (derive (make-hierarchy) :foo :bar))
19:17	gigamonkey	Gives me: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IRef (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
19:18	amalloy	gmaggior: raw console input doesn't provide such niceties. in the long run you'll be best off installing leiningen or cake, but your path of least resistance is to run rlwrap <whatever command you use for clojure> (apt-get install rlwrap if you don't have it)
19:19	amalloy	gigamonkey: derive doesn't return the hierarchy object afaict
19:19	gigamonkey	Okay, so how do I get it?
19:19	gigamonkey	It doesn't modify the hierarchy in place.
19:19	amalloy	,(doto (make-hierarchy) (derive ::a ::b))
19:19	clojurebot	{:parents {}, :descendants {}, :ancestors {}}
19:19	amalloy	hm
19:20	gmaggior	Thank you very much amalloy
19:21	amalloy	gigamonkey: i lied. it does return the hierarchy
19:21	amalloy	$source defmulti
19:21	sexpbot	defmulti is http://is.gd/wi5uPO
19:22	amalloy	gigamonkey: defmulti is a macro; it isn't calling that code
19:22	gigamonkey	At any rate, this fails too: (defmulti baz identity :hierarchy (make-hierachy))
19:22	gigamonkey	Ah.
19:22	amalloy	you need to pass it a literal symbol, obtained via an earlier make-hierarchy
19:22	amalloy	i guess
19:23	gigamonkey	No, that's not it.
19:23	gmaggior	amalloy, rlwrap clojure worked fine!
19:23	gigamonkey	Which I'm glad about because that would be terrible.
19:23	amalloy	gigamonkey: inclined to agree
19:24	amalloy	gigamonkey: i think it wants a map, not bare kv pairs
19:25	gigamonkey	java.lang.Exception: The syntax for defmulti has changed. Example: (defmulti name dispatch-fn :default dispatch-value)
19:25	amalloy	so i see. this is getting silly; i confess i don't define new hierarchies often (ever)
19:26	amalloy	(defmulti foo class :hierarchy (ref (make-hierarchy)))
19:27	amalloy	i can understand the design descision that led to requiring that to be a ref, but i don't especially like it
19:29	amalloy	and it certainly ought to be documented better
19:30	amalloy	gigamonkey: ^, if you missed it. better?
19:31	gigamonkey	amalloy: yup, that does the trick.
19:32	gigamonkey	That seems especially goofy since defmulti is a macro. If it needs a ref, why not take care of it itself.
19:32	amalloy	gigamonkey: i suspect it's so that you can see the hierarchy developing yourself, or share it among multiple defmultis
19:32	amalloy	without them each discovering their own version of the dependency tree
19:33	gigamonkey	I don't understand what you just said but that's probably just me.
19:35	amalloy	gigamonkey: i'm not sure it makes sense for keywords, but consider the hierarchy for java classes. if you have a method defined for, say, 20 different classes, then the first time that multimethod sees a class it's never seen before, it has to try isa? on all the defined dispatch values
19:35	amalloy	when it finds a match, it updates the ref to reflect that (or could; i haven't read the source). if you have multiple defmultis all using the same hierarchy, it saves duplicated work to have them all use the same ref
19:37	gigamonkey	Okay. So if I say (def h (ref (make-hierarchy))) is there a way for me to modify the hierarchy?
19:38	amalloy	gigamonkey: (alter h derive ::a ::b)
19:39	gigamonkey	"No transaction running"
19:39	amalloy	(dosync (alter...))
19:39	amalloy	i usually use atoms rather than refs :P
19:39	amalloy	(not that you have a choice here)
19:40	amalloy	but you can do all your derivings in a functional way, and then just ref the final result, if you never want to change it thereafter
19:40	gigamonkey	Right.
19:40	amalloy	,(-> (make-hierarchy) (derive ::a ::b) (derive ::c String) ref)
19:40	clojurebot	java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (instance? clojure.lang.Named parent)
19:40	amalloy	,(-> (make-hierarchy) (derive ::a ::b) (derive ::c ::a) ref)
19:40	clojurebot	#<Ref@f6fc62: {:parents {:sandbox/c #{:sandbox/a}, :sandbox/a #{:sandbox/b}}, :ancestors {:sandbox/c #{:sandbox/a :sandbox/b}, :sandbox/a #{:sandbox/b}}, :descendants {:sandbox/a #{:sandbox/c}, :sandbox/b #{:sandbox/a :sandbox/c}}}>
20:39	ignacio	anyone used lein-axis?
20:46	pickles	bit of a (probably n00b related) issue: I have three clojure scripts: A, B and C, all three in namespace x. B defines type-b (deftype), C uses type-b, A includes both B and C. I'm getting a "No matching method found" error from the attempted use in C.
20:50	tomoj	you probably shouldn't have three scripts in the same namespace. not that this answers your question..
20:51	pickles	mmm
20:52	pickles	would you suggest one ns per script?
20:52	pickles	they're all part of the same program
20:53	tomoj	yeah, and namespaces should correspond to the filesystem, so (ns foo.bar.baz) should go in src/foo/bar/baz.clj
20:53	pickles	ah, that might have something to do with it
20:53	tomoj	also, you shouldn't have any "single-segment namespaces", like (ns foo)
20:53	pickles	one of the files is in a different directory
20:54	pickles	mmm
20:54	tomoj	when you say (use 'foo.bar) or, equivalently in the ns macro, (ns baz.bing (:use foo.bar)), clojure will look for foo/bar.clj on the classpath
20:54	tomoj	if you have other files also in the foo.bar namespace, clojure won't find them, you'd have to load them yourself
20:55	pickles	mmk
20:55	pickles	i'll have to change one of the files
20:56	pickles	the other is a "config" file which I'll still probably do a load-file with
20:57	pickles	thx tomoj, i'll have to poke around
20:57	pickles	and als ortfm
20:57	pickles	*also rtfm
20:58	pickles	another quick question: the "read" function seems to be reading in symbols, whereas the documentation iirc lead me to believe it would read a single character at a time?
20:58	pickles	*led
21:00	technomancy	pickles: the .read method on certain reader classes can read a char at a time, but the read function reads a single form.
21:00	technomancy
21:00	hiredman_	pickles: read reads in a clojure form
21:00	hiredman_	,(doc read)
21:00	clojurebot	"([] [stream] [stream eof-error? eof-value] [stream eof-error? eof-value recursive?]); Reads the next object from stream, which must be an instance of java.io.PushbackReader or some derivee. stream defaults to the current value of in ."
21:01	hiredman_	"Reads the next object from stream"
21:01	pickles	wonder where I got the impression it read a single character then...
21:01	pickles	i know the java streams do single chars but I thought i saw that on the clojure read method too
21:01	pickles	ah well
21:01	pickles	many thanks all
21:09	MiggyX	Has anyone managed to get congomongo to build?
21:11	amalloy	MiggyX: you really need to build it, not just use it?
21:29	ephcon	hey has anybody here messed around with scriptjure?
21:29	ephcon	in particular, I'm trying to figure out a js for loop in scriptjure
21:29	ephcon	https://github.com/arohner/scriptjure
21:42	test	clojurebot: (def x 5)
21:42	clojurebot	api examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
21:42	MigZ	hmm, any obvious reason why when I set a namespace, clojure can't find any of the libraries (such as clojure-contrib) that it could see before?
21:43	amalloy	MigZ: from the information given, the only answer certain to be correct is "you did something wrong"
21:44	MigZ	amalloy: http://www.pastie.org/1761391 I didn't know if there was a common stupid thing to do wrong :)
21:45	test	sexpbot: (def x 5)
21:45	amalloy	MigZ: duck-streams and str-utils are part of clojure.contrib; your ns decl acts as if you wanted to include four independent libraries
21:46	amalloy	you want (:use (c.c d-s s-u) (s.c)
21:46	test	sexpbot: (println "Hello World")
21:46	amalloy	&("hello world")
21:46	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
21:46	amalloy	oops
21:46	amalloy	&"hello world"
21:46	sexpbot	⟹ "hello world"
21:46	test	ahh thanks
21:47	test	&(defn foo [x] (inc x))
21:47	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
21:47	test	&(range 1)
21:47	sexpbot	⟹ (0)
21:47	amalloy	MigZ: i know str-utils is extremely old, and i think duck-streams is similarly but i'm not sure. you probably want to use something newer as well
21:47	test	&(range)
21:47	sexpbot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
21:48	amalloy	clojure.string includes most of the features that ye olde str-utils did
21:49	MigZ	amalloy: Just took it from the clojure book. :) Will look into clojure.string
21:49	test	&(dorun (cycle '(1)))
21:49	sexpbot	Execution Timed Out!
21:49	MigZ	Well I've gotten rid of the use errors, now getting 'Unable to resolve symbol: mongo! in this context' - still getting closer ;)
21:50	amalloy	MigZ: errrr i included an error in my suggested ns decl
21:50	amalloy	there should not be a paren before s.c
21:51	MigZ	amalloy awesome, that fixed it :)
21:51	amalloy	just keepin you on your toes :)
21:52	amalloy	seriously though it took me a hellishly long time to fully absorb all clojure's namespace subtleties. it's surprisingly complicated
21:52	MigZ	amalloy: hopefully I'll pick it up at some point - I'm hoping to get to grips with clojure. How have you found it? I do a lot of work that needs to be paralelised :)
21:53	amalloy	MigZ: asking someone in #clojure what they think of clojure is liable to yield predictable results
21:54	MigZ	amalloy: well I wouldn't expect a hugely negative response - but perhaps a fair one of how it fits to their various workloads :)
21:54	amalloy	well, i'm still stuck with php for my day job
21:55	MigZ	amalloy: ah
21:55	amalloy	i find a lot of code i try to write is like "arrrrgh this should take two ##@%! lines in clojure"
21:55	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: %! in this context
21:55	amalloy	haha sorry sexpbot
21:55	MigZ	hah
21:59	amalloy	in fact here's a good example from today. i had, in php, something like Map<String, List<String>> (really just a bunch of arrays in php, but using java to indicate what the types were)
22:01	ataggart	amalloy: every day I was saying that. Then I just up and quit my job.
22:01	amalloy	i wanted to do something with each "pair" of adjacent items in each list. in clojure: ##(let [listmap {:a [4 7 8 9] :b [1 3 8]}] (for [[k v] listmap, [src dst] (partition 2 1 v)] [k src dst]))
22:01	sexpbot	⟹ ([:a 4 7] [:a 7 8] [:a 8 9] [:b 1 3] [:b 3 8])
22:03	amalloy	ataggart: it's an idea with some appeal, for sure. could probably head just a little south and pal around with amitrathore and ztellman
22:04	ataggart	heh, I went the other way, north to Vancouver.
22:06	tomoj	amalloy: yes.
22:07	amalloy	tomoj: agreeing with anything in particular?
22:07	tomoj	my boss who also knows clojure is someone not driven to "arrrrgh" by php, but I can't help it
22:07	tomoj	s/someone/somehow/
22:07	amalloy	tomoj: you can do a surprising number of functional things in php, they're just atrociously verbose
22:08	tomoj	it's a sickening pile of nasty to me
22:08	amalloy	it's made a little worse because our general manager slash software lead loves php and has a coding style nearly as eccentric as rhickey's
22:08	tomoj	"eccentric in a good
22:08	tomoj	er. "eccentric" in a good way?
22:09	tomoj	..presumably not
22:09	amalloy	tomoj: chuckle good guess
22:10	amalloy	if( isset($data[$key]) ) $data[$key]++; else $data[$key] = 1; // but with newlines
22:10	amalloy	instead of just @$data[$key]++;
22:12	tomoj	I guess I'm not qualified to hate php
22:12	amalloy	eh?
22:12	tomoj	I don't know it very well
22:12	amalloy	we have an open door policy
22:12	amalloy	anyone can hate with us
22:13	tomoj	that @ thing is just "ignore errors", right?
22:13	amalloy	yes
22:13	tomoj	the fact that that ends up setting the value for the key to 1 is somewhat baffling
22:13	amalloy	tomoj: $var, where nobody has defined var yet, evaluates to 0
22:14	amalloy	along with issuing a warning
22:14	tomoj	ah
22:15	amalloy	ANYWAY. if you're in a language designed to let you be sloppy, why be sloppy and verbose
22:15	tomoj	:D
22:25	amalloy	tomoj: are you using 5.3? the new closure support is a big help, even if they are tedious to use
22:26	tomoj	yep
22:27	tomoj	that's the function ($foo) use ($bar) {} stuff?
22:27	amalloy	yeah
22:28	MigZ	right, now to write this loop code in a functional way... should prove to be interesting ;)
22:28	yayitswei	what's the best way to get status updates from a long-running process? e.g. (doall (map #(process-keywords-from (days-ago %))) (range 0 30)))
22:28	tomoj	`array_filter($pub, function ($item) use ($tid) { return $item['tid'] == $tid; });`
22:28	tomoj	`(filter (comp #{tid} :tid) pub)`
22:29	yayitswei	I put a println in the days-ago function, but it does'nt print until after the whole thing runs
22:29	tomoj	arrrrgh
22:30	amalloy	yayitswei: blurg. doall + map + anonymous function reeks. do you need the results of the map, or are you doing it strictly for side effects?
22:31	yayitswei	strictly for side effects
22:31	yayitswei	thakns for pointing it out btw, would love a better solution
22:31	amalloy	doseq
22:31	amalloy	(doseq [d (range 30)] (process-keywords-from d))
22:32	yayitswei	and why is that better than doall?
22:32	amalloy	(a) doall forces the whole sequence to be realized all at once, taking up more memory
22:32	amalloy	while doseq throws away intermediate results
22:32	yayitswei	oh! that's good to know
22:33	amalloy	(b) (map #(whatever %) coll) is just an ugly way of writing (for [x xs] (whatever x))
22:34	amalloy	doseq uses the same binding style as for, and gives you the strict, side-effect behavior you want
22:34	amalloy	(of course, when you just want to call a simple function, (map f coll) is nicer than (for [item coll] (f item)); but if you have to define the function on the fly, for is nicer
22:34	amalloy	)
22:35	MigZ	if you have a hash key that has a space in it, how do you quote it?
22:36	amalloy	&(keyword "stupid key with a space")
22:36	sexpbot	⟹ :stupid key with a space
22:37	MigZ	amalloy: working with some data from MongoDB - it has embedded documents as well as tag names that contain spaces
22:37	amalloy	yeah, i know
22:37	MigZ	amalloy, I meant my particular case :)
22:38	MigZ	unfortunately when I did the mongodb book, I didn't learn how to use it with clojure lol
22:38	amalloy	MigZ: i don't understand
22:38	amalloy	are you saying my suggestion doesn't work for you for some reason?
22:39	yayitswei	amalloy: seems to work. much faster, too. but, the println is still getting shown after the whole thing completes
22:39	MigZ	amalloy, I just get Unable to resolve & in this context
22:40	MigZ	but that's probably something I'm doing elsewhere so checking that nwo...
22:40	amalloy	&(apply println '(& is my activation trigger))
22:40	sexpbot	⟹ & is my activation trigger nil
22:40	amalloy	yayitswei: could be output buffering
22:41	MigZ	could try using (flush) but that might affect performance
22:41	yayitswei	should (flush) help?
22:41	yayitswei	just tried that, but it doesn't seem to have an effect
22:42	amalloy	i'm guessing process-keywords is itself lazy
22:46	yayitswei	amalloy: i changed process-keywords to use doseq -- is that lazy?
22:47	amalloy	it is not
22:53	MigZ	amalloy so if you had a hash called 'test' containing a key called 'Stupid Key', how would you print it? So far everything I've tried has blown up :)
22:54	amalloy	&(let [k (keyword "Stupid Key") test {k 10}] (k test))
22:54	sexpbot	⟹ 10
22:55	MigZ	amalloy, hmm is it that hideous because of the stupid space?
22:57	amalloy	life sucks, and then you die
22:58	MigZ	amalloy yes but I'm hoping it might suck less lol
22:59	MigZ	the current plan is to convince people here that clojure is nicer and faster than what we're currently using :)
23:04	trptcolin_	if i want to see if a given thing implementing IPersistentMap is a type / record vs. one of the clojure.lang maps (PersistentArrayMap, PersistentStructMap, PersistentHashMap, etc), am i going to have to go through and type-check?
23:05	trptcolin_	got something i need to serialize where the reader might not have the deftype/defrecord classes imported...
23:08	brehaut	trptcolin_: im not quite sure i follow, but map? returns true for a record instance for me
23:08	trptcolin_	right, me too. i want something that distinguishes records/types from "regular" maps
23:09	trptcolin_	so i can count on being able to deserialize a map-like thing without worrying about dependencies besides what's in clojure.core
23:09	brehaut	trptcolin_: ah right my bad
23:12	trptcolin_	my use case is actually such that i can do (into {} thing-thats-like-a-map) and be done with it either way (it's guaranteed to be small)
23:12	brehaut	trptcolin_: well a deftype will only be map? => true if it explicitly implements IPersistentMap
23:12	trptcolin_	i actually am not sure what this thing i have is (record vs. type), but it's definitely mappy
23:14	trptcolin_	i'm just going to dump it into a hashmap, that'll work
23:14	brehaut	(type thing) will tell you for certain
23:14	trptcolin_	yep
23:14	trptcolin_	well... it'll tell me the class. which may be a record or type :)
23:26	no_mind	what is the best way to return an error from a function. I have a function which returns a map after adding a key/value pair to map but if the key already exists it should return a warning/error indicating key exists.
23:28	brehaut	no_mind: 'best way' is hard to answer in a general sense.
23:29	ataggart	who consumes the warning/error? If it;s the caller of the add function, then just find out beforehand
23:29	ataggart	(if-not (contains? m k) (assoc m k v))