#clojure – 2011-03-24

2011-03-24

02:56	raek	(defn switcheroo! [atom newval] (let [oldval @atom] (if (compare-and-set! atom oldval newval) oldval (recur atom newval))))
02:59	scottj	(defn swap!* [a f & args] (let [ret (atom nil)] (apply swap! a (fn [x & args] (reset! ret x) (apply f x args)) args) @ret))
03:57	TobiasRaeder	morning
03:59	ephcon	morning
03:59	thorwil	morning
04:09	talios	evening
04:52	ejackson	Morning
04:52	mduerksen	greetings
04:59	angerman	xin chao
05:39	angerman	ok, now this is strange, as nice as FF4 is… it chews 33% CPU just for downloading a file.
05:39	angerman	wtf?
05:46	mduerksen	angerman: just downloading libreoffice - cpu ist almost idle
05:46	angerman	mduerksen: yes, this is very confusing. it shouldn't be a cpu intensive task to download afile.
05:46	mduerksen	maybe its the final virus check you observed?
05:47	angerman	download is maybe 25% done.
05:47	angerman	will go on for another 70 min
05:48	mduerksen	ok, so that can't be it. do you have more tabs open? with flash etc.?
05:48	angerman	no, nothing is open.
05:48	angerman	except for the download window.
05:52	mduerksen	beats me...
05:53	angerman	maybe it's the file size.
05:53	angerman	4.5gb
05:53	clgv	angerman: is it https?
05:53	angerman	clgv: hmm, that might be.
05:54	angerman	does apple serve the xcode+iso bundle from behind a https uri? … lets see
05:54	angerman	hmm no.
05:54	clgv	I guess youi would notice https in cpu usage but not that much on a modern cpu
05:55	angerman	yea, I'm simply subsum it as weird. If it doesn't persist, it's ok.
05:56	angerman	if it stays that way… FF4 has to go
05:56	clgv	oh you are an early adopter ;)
05:57	angerman	It's been FF most of the time, than for a short period of time Safari, because I simply felt faster. Until Chrome arrived, which basically just improved on Safari. But FF4 feels snappy again.
05:59	angerman	Too much of any one vendor is just not good. And I have a semi-sceptical relationship with google. But by the end of the day, what is the least hassle wins.
05:59	clgv	humm a different question: is there something like partial that also updates metadata?
06:00	clgv	I am building a configuration DSL for my algorithm and would like to check at least arity of the functions to provide an early error to the user
06:01	angerman	I don't think anyone would have ventured down that way yet.
06:02	clgv	hm I could have a look at the partial definition and hack it myself. or wrap the partial functionality in another fn or macro that keeps and updates metadata
06:09	raek	clgv: function objects do not carry metadata about the arity... or did you add it yourself?
06:10	clgv	raek: they do indirectly in the argslist when you use defn. but only if it's not overriden manually
06:11	raek	that metadata is on the var, not the function
06:11	clgv	does that distinction really matter?
06:11	clgv	I am not going to assign the same function to a different var
06:12	raek	you'd have to make your variant of partial a macro
06:12	clgv	but it would indeed fail if someone would be using fns
06:12	raek	or force the user of it to pass the var instead of the function
06:13	clgv	maybe I should define my own definition of these kind of functions
06:14	clgv	it's only intended to be at the configuration layer
06:16	angerman	jikes...
06:19	clgv	angerman: ?
06:20	angerman	somehow sandbar pukes at me.
06:20	angerman	claims that sandbar core is not found.
06:20	angerman	make zero sense.
06:27	angerman	ah. it did make sense. on a very sad level.
06:27	angerman	sandbar `uses` hiccup 0.3.0 which conflicts if you use hiccup 0.3.4
06:34	clgv	so you are doing web development in addition to your tikz rendering
06:35	angerman	web stuff is mainly a side gig.
06:35	angerman	(Research/Univ. is mostly Math / Sidestuff is Websites and iOS dev)
06:41	pyr	morning
06:41	angerman	mornig.
06:44	pyr	i'm splitting up a rather large clojure project into several files
06:45	pyr	and wondering what the best thing would be
06:45	pyr	i suppose i can't use one ns for all files
06:45	pyr	but should all independant files cross-reference the other namespaces declared ?
06:46	angerman	pyr: I usually pack them up in seperate namespaces and require them.
06:46	angerman	(:require [geometry :as g])
06:46	pyr	'k
06:46	angerman	(g/with-geometry …)
06:48	_ato	you can actually use one ns with multiple files, use the "load" function from the main file
06:48	_ato	clojure.core uses that technique for example
06:49	pyr	that sounds nice
06:49	clgv	pyr: I guess you have a reason for splitting the project into separate files. I also guess that you will group the functions together that somehow belong together semantically. so why not take that "semantic reason" and derive an appropriate namespace from it? ;)
06:50	pyr	clgv: you're right
06:50	pyr	clgv: but i'm doing it a step at a time
06:50	pyr	since splitting up reveals toe-stepping
06:50	pyr	between semantical units
06:53	raek	a good partitioning of the namespace would be a "layered" one, since namespaces cannot have circular dependencies
06:56	pyr	ok
06:56	pyr	thanks for your pointers
06:58	raek	e.g. (ns apple) (defn make-apple ...) (ns basket) (defn make-basket ...) (defn apple-in-basket? ...) rather than (ns apple) (defn make-apple ...) (defn apple-in-basket? ...) (ns basket) (defn make-basket ...)
06:58	raek	the rationale being that the "apple" does not have to be conserned with what might contain it
07:00	angerman	? (case …) has no fall through?
07:01	angerman	alright. it's the last item… weird.
07:47	angerman	can I injetct a multi-method in a foreign ns?
07:48	raek	angerman: a defmulti or a defmethod?
07:48	angerman	defmethod
07:50	raek	yes you can. (ns foo) (defmulti m ...) (ns bar (:require foo)) (defmethod foo/m ...)
07:51	angerman	raek: great!
07:53	angerman	wow. library fail!
07:53	angerman	method not public.
07:55	angerman	reak is there some macro, that would allow me to go into a ns, mess with the stuff, and come back?
07:55	angerman	or would I have to write one?
07:55	clgv	angerman: there is an with-private macro I found and used for tests
07:55	angerman	I don't want to use it for tests only. It's a little bit like money patching.
07:56	angerman	Current solution is to just copy the private function into my source tree.
07:56	angerman	but that's rediculous!
07:56	angerman	Ahh well, too much complaining. It works, is ugly, who cares.
07:57	clgv	http://pastebin.com/CMKsKKeF
07:57	clgv	it is not limited to tests. I also used it with hooks
07:57	angerman	clgv: I basically want to patch functionality into a library.
07:58	clgv	just try it ;)
07:58	angerman	using defmulti was a good idea by the library author.
07:58	angerman	using a private method for essential computation inside of the multimethods was not.
07:59	clgv	"private" is only metadata that is enforced by the clojure environment though ...
07:59	clgv	but it would be better if you wouldnt have to work around
07:59	angerman	yes. It's just a mistake by the lib's author.
08:00	angerman	what the library does is great, but how it does, is not so.
08:01	clgv	but it's not only an error by 3rd party libs. this case can also be found in clojure e.g. core
08:01	angerman	I don't know I don't "privatize" my fns.
08:02	angerman	maybe put them in a different namespace, for hygenic reasons.
08:02	angerman	That reminds me.
08:02	angerman	Can I extend a Java Class's final method?
08:03	angerman	or is final enforced on a jvm level?
08:03	clgv	good question. but I guess it must be enforced on jvm+compiler level, since you often have no source ;)
08:04	angerman	do I need the source?
08:04	angerman	class X { final int do() { System.out.println("I do"); } }
08:05	angerman	(defprotocol Do (do [_] "does soemthing"))
08:05	clgv	I mean. if you only have the super class as jvm bytecode it must contain some information about final
08:05	angerman	(extend-type X Do (do [_] (println "I don't!") ))
08:05	angerman	(.do X)
08:05	clgv	that means as soon as you want to compile a class extending it, the compiler will forbid you to
08:06	angerman	but in this case, the method is final, not necessarily the class.
08:06	angerman	Even though, is it a feature of the Java Compiler, or a JVM enforcement?
08:07	clgv	I dont know if the classloader would forbid you to load the class if you somehow managed to get it compiled
08:08	angerman	sound's like it's up for an experiment.
08:08	angerman	Hmm. will do that next on my todo list
08:10	clgv	but it might be a hard assignment if the compiler doesn compile it for you and you have to generate the bytecode yourself ;)
08:10	tsdh	Do I see it correctly that in order to call clojure functions from Java, I :gen-class my ns, declare the function signatures using :methods, and create wrapper defn's starting with a -?
08:10	angerman	Nah. I'm only interested if clojure allows me to.
08:13	_ato	angerman: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.VerifyError: class bar overrides final method eep.()I
08:13	_ato	at runtime
08:13	tsdh	At least, that's what's suggested in http://java.dzone.com/articles/java-clojure-interop-calling. Especially the -wrapper-functions seem a bit redundant...
08:13	angerman	_ato: ohh, thanks.
08:14	_ato	even if you could turn off the bytecode verifier it probably wouldn't work right anyway because optimisation likely depends on it, eg final methods can be inlined
08:15	angerman	_ato: good point.
08:15	angerman	Hmm life surgery on java's heart.. no thanks.
08:16	thorwil	how do i get at the contents of a #<params$wrap_params$fn__1835 ring.middleware.params$wrap_params$fn__1835@25be8e06> ?
08:17	angerman	eval it?
08:20	thorwil	can't in a way i get to see anything
08:20	angerman	maybe I'm completely wrong, but that looks like a function to me.
08:22	thorwil	i don't know what it is, but surely not what i'm after :/
08:22	_ato	heh, where did you get it from?
08:23	angerman	thorwil: what you posted looks like a method handle.
08:23	angerman	thorwil: evaluating that method will get you to it's contents.
08:23	_ato	oh it's the lambda inside this: http://clojuredocs.org/ring/ring.middleware.params/wrap-params
08:24	thorwil	hmm. my trouble seems to start elsewhere.
08:24	thorwil	(app [[path not-empty] &] (submit-article (wrap-params get-form-params) path))
08:25	angerman	&] ?
08:25	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unmatched delimiter: ]
08:25	thorwil	^ it looks like get-form-params is not evaluted before submit-article
08:26	thorwil	angerman: it matches urls with or without trailing /
08:26	Raynes	angerman: Congratulations! I think you're the first person ever to accidentally set off sexpbot's evaluation. I had a cookie for you, but I ate it.
08:27	angerman	Raynes: i c
08:27	thorwil	now it dawns on me. have to try (eval (wrap-params get-form-params))
08:27	Raynes	:>
08:28	angerman	thorwil: ((wrap-params get-form-params))?
08:28	_ato	er, I don't think that's going to help. I think angerman meant 'call' rather than 'eval'
08:29	angerman	thorwil: I'm not really sure what you are doing but it looks a little confused.
08:29	angerman	get-form-params sounds like a function rather than a value
08:30	thorwil	angerman: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/a9fa0022c9d06a93?hl=en#
08:30	thorwil	angerman: there surely is a lot of confusion in my head
08:31	thorwil	get-form-params is a function for getting the stuff i want out of the request map that has been added to by wrap-params
08:31	angerman	well then your calling is reverse already.
08:32	thorwil	if i just wrap my handler, i can't pass another argument
08:32	angerman	so you want something like (get-form-params (wrap-params request)))
08:32	thorwil	angerman: wrap-params takes a handler, nothing else
08:33	thorwil	strike that
08:33	_ato	it takes a handler and returns a function that takes a request
08:33	thorwil	but it does not take a request, that i already implied
08:33	angerman	thorwil: the primariy idea of that line was to show that the logic is somehwat reverse.
08:34	angerman	(def wrapped-app-handler (wrap-params app-handler))
08:34	raek	thorwil: note that the form to the right of the vector should eval to a (possibly wrapped) ring handler fn
08:35	angerman	then within app-handler you can appy (get-form-params to the request)
08:35	raek	moustache has syntax for wrapping too
08:35	raek	(app ["foo"] [wrapper1 (wrapper2 arg) handler])
08:38	raek	(clarification: if a form is not a vector or a map in moustache, it should usually eval to a ring handler)
08:40	thorwil	raek: it seems to me that i need either a wrapper that binds the form-params, or one that adds "path" to the request map (?)
08:41	raek	parsing form params is not done by moustache. you can use the standard ring wrap-params for that.
08:41	raek	(basically, moustache only does routing)
08:41	thorwil	yes, that's why i use wrap-params already
08:42	thorwil	the problem is passing another argument to my handler, alongside
08:42	raek	ah
08:42	angerman	doesn't wrap-params just extend the request map?
08:43	thorwil	yes
08:43	raek	I guess you can do something like (fn [req] (handler something req)) or (partial handler something)
08:44	raek	or make a middleware fn that adds it to the reuqest map
08:44	thorwil	partial leads to fun like: results in "nth not supported on this type: PersistentHashMap"
08:44	raek	so this extra argument is not something in the form params?
08:45	clgv	raek: do you know where in clojure.core the "&" in parameter declarations of functions is handled?
08:45	_ato	partial would make path the first argument and request the escond argument
08:45	raek	that doesn't sound like something that is introduced by partial itself
08:45	thorwil	raek: no, the argument is part of the url, taken from moustach's destructuring
08:45	_ato	sounds like maybe you want: (app [[path not-empty] &] (wrap-params (fn [req] (submit-article req path))))
08:46	angerman	thorwil: maybe you should give more high-level explanation of what you are trying to archive
08:46	angerman	I still think you are stuck somewhere in the core without a clear understanding of how things are designed to work.
08:48	thorwil	trying _ato's suggestion, first :)
08:49	_ato	I'm assuming your submit-artcle is like: (defn submit-article [request path]) ; partial would assume it's like: (defn submit-article [path request])
08:49	_ato	clgv: in destructure https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3837
08:50	_ato	(= firstb '&) ...
08:50	angerman	later
08:51	clgv	sure? I dont see destructure being called in defn
08:51	Chousuke	destructure is called in fn :)
08:51	Chousuke	or well, no.
08:51	clgv	ah maybe-destructured is called in fn
08:52	Chousuke	fn destructuring is a bit different from let-destructuring :/
08:52	_ato	it turns it into a let doesn't it?
08:53	_ato	and let calls destructure
08:53	clgv	yep it does
08:53	clgv	maybe-destructured is building a let
08:53	thorwil	works, and i know how to take the map apart!
08:53	thorwil	_ato: thank you!
08:53	thorwil	raek and angerman, too :)
08:54	clgv	uuuuh! destructure is a monster
08:56	Chousuke	It is. Fortunately, it works
08:56	thorwil	_ato: to be sure, i take it the deciding thing about the anonymous function is that it takes a single argument, where the name there is just a binding?
08:58	_ato	thorwil: yeah, wrap-params expects to be given a function that takes a single request argument, which we bind to 'req'.
08:59	kjeldahlw	I'm struggling with some clr interop issues, need to figure out what classes/methods are available for a namespace etc. Any pointers on nice examples on how to "inspect" similar stuff in the java world?
08:59	kjeldahlw	(clojure jvm world I mean)
08:59	_ato	kjeldahlw: are you asking how to list the methods on a java class?
09:00	kjeldahlw	_ato: Yes, for anything inside something from the java world that one would require into the current namespace or similar.
09:01	_ato	(seq (.getMethods String)) will get you a list of all the methods on the String class
09:01	_ato	for nicely formatted output check out the 'show' function in clojure.contrib.repl-utils
09:02	thorwil	but i'm an idiot, (app [[path not-empty] &] (wrap-params (partial submit-article path))) works, too
09:03	_ato	kjeldahlw: oh and the other half of the question (ns-imports ns) will list the classes imported into ns
09:06	clgv	kjeldahlw: seems the "ns-*" functions are of interest
09:10	saml	what's the clojure eval bot that you are using?
09:10	saml	> (+ 1 2)
09:10	hsbot	No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)) arising from a use of `M43891536.show_M43891536' at <interactive>:(2,0)-(4,32) Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (GHC.Show.Show (a -> a))No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (...
09:10	_ato	,(+ 1 2)
09:10	clojurebot	3
09:10	_ato	&(+ 1 2)
09:10	sexpbot	⟹ 3
09:11	saml	is it open source?
09:11	_ato	saml: https://github.com/cognitivedissonance/sexpbot https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot
09:11	saml	,source
09:11	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
09:12	_ato	~source
09:12	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
09:12	saml	what's the difference?
09:13	_ato	the , means eval clojure code, ~ means run a bot command
09:13	saml	sexpbot vs clojurebot
09:13	clgv	sexpbot is way cooler ;)
09:13	clgv	$source map
09:13	sexpbot	map is http://is.gd/Fd9Ag4
09:14	saml	sexpbot, is web scale
09:14	saml	it is mongodb
09:15	kjeldahlw	Excellent. (ns-imports ns) shows the stuff I was looking for. And given a key from that map, how do I list all symbols in the namespace?
09:16	saml	why clojure no new release?
09:16	saml	is it abandoned?
09:16	clgv	kjeldahlw: there is also ns-map.
09:17	joly	saml: not abandoned
09:17	clgv	just do a ##(find-doc "ns-")
09:17	sexpbot	⟹ ------------------------- clojure.contrib.logging/commons-logging ([]) Defines the commons-logging-based implementations of the core logging functions. End-users should never need to call this. ------------------------- clojure.core/ns-aliases ([ns]) Returns a ... http://gist.github.com/885030
09:17	_ato	saml: releases are here: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/downloads
09:18	saml	it's alpha
09:18	joly	saml: still means there is active development
09:18	clgv	1.2.0 is not alpha ;)
09:18	raek	nor is 1.2.1...
09:18	clgv	raek: 1.2.1?
09:18	saml	will stuff change a lot on 1.3?
09:18	saml	should i use 1.3 or 1.2?
09:19	saml	in production
09:19	raek	I think it was released this week
09:19	clgv	for real?
09:20	kjeldahlw	clgv: Thanks, but how do I use it? If I put in as parameter anything from the (ns-imports ns) (keys or values) I get "no namespace" errors. Feel free to give an example from the jvm world..
09:20	raek	maybe it hasn't been announced yet, but leiningen 1.5.0 (also released this week?) uses it as the default now
09:20	clgv	raek: dont see it on clojure.org
09:20	_ato	1.3 changes are shown here: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.txt there are breaking changes, I think mostly it's just adding :dynamic when you want to rebind stuff
09:20	raek	http://build.clojure.org/releases/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.1/
09:21	clgv	kjeldahlw: I just meant you can lookup functions with it. ns-map sounds promising
09:21	clgv	raek: changelist?
09:21	clgv	raek: or better update notes?
09:22	raek	saml: there has been discussions of changing the version from 1.3 to 2.0, so there might be some breaking changes
09:23	raek	though, I know that there are people who use 1.3 in production already
09:24	kjeldahlw	clgv: Sounds easy, maybe I'm just being dense. If I do (ns-imports ns), the first pair I get in the map is UriBuilder System.UriBuilder. Trying (ns-map UriBuilder), (ns-map System.UriBuilder), and also with the quote symbol in front, I still get errors. Do I need to "look up" the namespace some other function before passing it to ns-map?
09:24	raek	clgv: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/f1b1fbfd2a6c1a9f
09:24	saml	raek, ah thanks
09:24	clgv	,(ns-map ns)
09:24	raek	,(ns-publics 'clojure.core)
09:24	clojurebot	{sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map, read-line #'clojure.core/read-line, re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern, keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?, val #'clojure.core/val, ProcessBuilder java.lang.ProcessBuilder, chunked-seq? #'clojure.core/chunked-seq?, Enum java.lang.Enum, find-protocol-impl #'clojure.core/find-protocol-impl, SuppressWarnings java.lang.SuppressWarnings, ...}
09:24	clojurebot	{sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map, read-line #'clojure.core/read-line, re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern, keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?, val #'clojure.core/val, chunked-seq? #'clojure.core/chunked-seq?, find-protocol-impl #'clojure.core/find-protocol-impl, vector-of #'clojure.core/vector-of, object-array #'clojure.core/object-array, compile-path #'clojure.core/compile-path, ...}
09:25	clgv	raek: thx
09:26	kjeldahlw	raek: How about anything that is not from the clojure namespace, but java?
09:27	_ato	kjeldahlw: Java classes aren't clojure namespaces, so you need to use Java reflection to list their methods. AFAIK there's no Clojure functions for doing it (in core), you just use: (.getMethods SomeClass)
09:27	kjeldahlw	_ato: Ah, ok. Similarly for clr then. Ok, I'll keep digging. Thanks.
09:28	_ato	maybe (.GetMethods System.UriBuilder)
09:29	_ato	for CLR
09:29	clgv	kjeldahlw: how does clojure CLR work for you so far?
09:29	_ato	just guessing from some example C# code
09:46	tsdh	What's the right way to coerce a ratio into a double with proper rounding?
09:46	tsdh	(double (/ 1001876 11)) ==> 91079.63636363635, which is wrong.
09:47	tsdh	Correct would be 91079.63636363636.
09:48	tsdh	Hm, doing the same in Java gives 91079.63636363637, which is wrong, too. :-)
09:50	amalloy	tsdh: wtf, that doesn't look wrong to me
09:51	amalloy	er, yes it does
09:51	tsdh	The correct result is 91079.[period 63].
09:51	amalloy	but doubles are pretty vague. if you care about precision in the 20th digit you shouldn't really use doubles
09:52	amalloy	&(/ 1001876. 11)
09:52	sexpbot	⟹ 91079.63636363637
09:53	tsdh	amalloy: I don't care too much, but that forces me to using a custom comparison function in my tests, where I compare Java results with Clojure results.
09:53	amalloy	tsdh: you should be doing that anyway for doubles. never compare doubles for equality
09:54	amalloy	the way you compute something can cause rounding errors to appear in different places, so that results which "should" be the same will differ
09:56	tsdh	In the concrete case, I really compare "1001876 / 11.0" with (double (/ 1001876 11)), so it's really only the coercion that makes the difference.
09:58	tsdh	And in this case, the Java result is about twice as near at the exact value.
09:59	tsdh	Or better, the Clojure error is twice as big as the java error.
10:38	devn	morning gents
10:39	Raynes	devn: Morning.
10:39	fliebel	I saw dnolen inherit Object in a deftype and overwrite equals and hashCode for speed. Why? Any deftype inherits those from Object already, doesn't it?
10:40	Raynes	devn: You know, it's impossible to tab complete your name because of Derander and devhost. (sorry for the pings)
10:40	Raynes	Not that it's difficult to type out. Just an observation.
10:40	dnolen	fliebel: for improving the speed of putting LVars into a collection (PersistentHashMap/Set)
10:41	fliebel	Raynes: depends on your client and how many chars you type before completing.
10:41	amalloy	fliebel: i saw that too and was puzzled
10:41	amalloy	dnolen: did your original version use defrecord instead?
10:41	fliebel	dnolen: Sure, but why are your methiods better than those on Object?
10:41	dnolen	amalloy: no
10:42	tsdh	My leiningen project depends on a foo.jar contained in lib/. How can I teach leiningen not to add that into the uberjar, because now I want to use my project in the foo project (which of course contains its own classes anyway)?
10:42	amalloy	defrecord comes with value-based versions of = and hash, but i had the same thought as fliebel: this looks just like the built-in
10:42	Raynes	fliebel: Not really. In this case, if you type d, you get a list of everyone with d in the name. de, you get Derander; dev, you get devhost. The only way around that is to set it to prefer the people who have spoken last.
10:42	amalloy	tsdh: circular dependencies are not cool
10:43	Raynes	Or get a client that doesn't understand the order of the alphabet. But I digress.
10:43	amalloy	Raynes: or get privs and boot anyone whose name gets in the way of your tab completion
10:44	Raynes	:)
10:44	tsdh	amalloy: Well, I agree. What I really want is to use my clj project in another Eclipse Java project that depends on the Eclipse Java foo project.
10:46	fliebel	dnolen: equals of Object is really identical, and uses == ultimately. hashCode does call some other function that may take some time.
10:46	fliebel	VMMemoryManager.getIdentityHashCode
10:47	amalloy	i rule my filesystem with an iron fist. it messes up tab completion of something more important, it gets the whip
10:47	amalloy	fliebel, Raynes: you could also find a client that uses fuzzy completion like emacs. then dvn would probably complete to devn
10:48	amalloy	tsdh: then don't build an uberjar
10:48	thorwil	i wonder why (ds/save! (flatten `(Article. ~(vals form-params) timestamp)))
10:48	thorwil	is not equivalent to (ds/save! (Article. path (form-params "title") (form-params "body") timestamp))
10:49	dnolen	amalloy: fliebel: all I know is that (.hashCode x) is ~2X faster when I've defined it myself.
10:49	amalloy	thorwil: um, because the former has a list where the latter has a function call
10:49	amalloy	dnolen: that i can believe, for reasons fliebel gives. but is = faster?
10:50	fliebel	dnolen: Yea, I can imagine, the hashCode of Object goes deep down into native code.
10:50	amalloy	fliebel: all the native code really does is return the object's memory address, so it seems like it should be trivially fast, but not as fast as returning a number you cached at ctor time
10:51	tsdh	amalloy: Oh, you are totally right. I had the impression that uberjar is needed to make :gen-class work. But that is a false assumption.
10:51	fliebel	amalloy: I see. What about… the speed of lookup of local vs class vs superclass?
10:52	kjeldahlw	clgv: Re: CLR, just getting started. Struggling with getting assemblies loaded and figuring out the CLR interop stuff (obviously).
10:52	fliebel	I imagine Java tries them in that order, so for a really fast function, it might be faster to have it on the class, rather than have Java go up the chain. But otn the other hand, this might be optimized away anyway.
10:53	dnolen	amalloy: yeah, defining equals like that doesn't make it any faster/slower.
10:53	amalloy	fliebel: java doesn't have to try them in any order - it's doing a dynamic dispatch on type anyway
10:54	fliebel	Oh, right.
10:54	clgv	kjeldahlw: ah ok. you could let me know whether it went well when you did some progress
10:57	kjeldahlw	clgv: It seems to be working. I've managed a Windows "hello world" style app importing the System.Windows.Forms namespace and instantiating a MessageBox instance with the text hello world in it. But if I want to use WPF and similar, I need more access to classes and methods, which is what I'm struggling with.
11:04	dnolen	amalloy_: thx for the point about equals, updated my code and blog post.
11:09	saml	, 1 + 2
11:09	clojurebot	1
11:09	clgv	,(+ 1 2)
11:09	clojurebot	3
11:10	scottj	,1 + 2
11:10	clojurebot	1
11:10	scottj	oh it only evals the first form?
11:10	angerman	lol, what? IndexOutOfBounds exception?!
11:29	fliebel	It'd be useful if this page mentioned which ones where lightning talks: http://clojure.com/blog/2011/03/23/conj-talks-all-up.html
11:32	hv	Assume I have made the JVM load a class from a SomeFile.class in CLASSPATH (file is directly there, not in a .jar). After SomeFile.class is regenerated, can I make the JVM reload it, at least for new uses of that class?
11:39	Fossi	hv: afaik there are some hacks to do that, but normally you can't
11:40	Fossi	jrebel and the like use proxy classes and javaagent privileges to reload some stuff
11:41	Fossi	but even then some things can't be replaced like enums or anonymous inner classes
11:44	cemerick	I seem to recall there being another library released recently (not scriptjure) that emits javascript for a subset of Clojure code. Does anyone have the name handy?
11:44	cemerick	nm, got it: https://github.com/kriyative/clojurejs
11:46	angerman	&(keyword? (symbol ":foo"))
11:46	sexpbot	⟹ false
11:47	angerman	hm.
11:47	clgv	a symbol is not a keyword
11:47	clgv	&(keyword? (resolve (symbol ":foo")))
11:47	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
11:48	angerman	clgv: i'll just go with :: :D
11:48	angerman	&(keyword ":foo")
11:48	sexpbot	⟹ ::foo
11:48	clgv	&::foo
11:48	sexpbot	⟹ :clojure.core/foo
11:49	clgv	&:::foo
11:49	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: :::foo
11:49	angerman	&::::foo
11:49	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: ::::foo
11:49	angerman	too bad :D
11:49	hv	Fossi: thanks. that's unfortunate that JRebel is not open source :(
11:49	angerman	&::-::foo
11:49	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: ::-::foo
11:49	clgv	angerman: I guess you violate conventions with (keyword ":foo")
11:51	angerman	clgv: I assume I can live with that for now.
11:51	clgv	why do you need the extra ":"?
11:51	angerman	I get the :… stuff from the database.
11:51	angerman	don't really want to strip the first character prior to converting it to a keyword.
12:05	saml	how can I install clojure?
12:05	angerman	saml: define "install"
12:06	saml	i downloaded clojure jar and contrib jar and put it on ~/opt/clojure/
12:06	saml	I'm trying to run sexpbot .
12:06	saml	java -cp lib/*:src/:resource clojure.main -e "(use 'sexpbot.run) (-main)"
12:06	angerman	ahh ok.
12:07	amalloy	cemerick: clojurescript too, right?
12:07	angerman	well you need $ java -cp ~/opt/clojure/clojure.jar:~/opt/clojure/clojure-contrib.jar:lib/*:src/:resources clojure.main -e "(use 'sexpbot.run) (-main)" then.
12:08	jlf	technomancy: nathanmarz resolved the previous missing dependency issue with the cascalog package, but the next issue is a "org/apache/hadoop/conf/Configuration [Thrown class java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError]" exception when i do (use 'cascalog.api). is this another package issue, or do i need to manually add the location of my local hadoop installation to my classpath in package.clj?
12:08	angerman	(e.g. clojure and clojure-contrib should be in you classpath)
12:08	amalloy	saml: cake deps will download sexpbot's dependencies, including clojure
12:08	jlf	or anyone... :)
12:08	saml	ah i see
12:08	chouser	amalloy: clojurescript is something else. Clojure semantics, not JS semantics.
12:08	saml	is cake recommended over lein?
12:09	clgv	how can I access the meta-data of a function that I passed into another function?
12:09	amalloy	saml: by cake users, yes. by lein users, no
12:09	amalloy	it's pretty split
12:09	saml	how about by clojure users?
12:09	amalloy	for specifically sexpbot i'd suggest cake
12:09	amalloy	i doubt it matters, but that's what all the sexpbot devs use
12:09	saml	is cake ruby?
12:10	amalloy	cake is clojure with a thin layer of ruby, like lein is clojure with a thin layer of bash
12:13	technomancy	jlf: I'd be surprised if you were meant to manually tweak things around like that, especially if the readme doesn't make it clear. I suspect it's another case of misdeclared dependencies.
12:13	technomancy	odd that cascalog would be so delinquent in this regard; I've heard good things about it. =\
12:14	amalloy	jlf: i had a similar problem using cascalog, and added hadoop to my deps
12:14	amalloy	i think the reason is so that it will work with whatever version of hadoop you want, rather than depending on version x
12:15	technomancy	then again, these kinds of problems do remind me of the brief time I spent investigating the hadoop ecosystem. =\
12:15	saml	Caused by: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission createClassLoader)
12:15	saml	when I run sexpbot
12:15	jlf	is there no way to express version ranges in lein dependencies?
12:15	amalloy	saml: did you read the readme?
12:15	amalloy	[clojure "[1.2.0,1.3.0)"]\
12:16	saml	amalloy, do you think it's mongodb?
12:16	saml	i thought i removed all plugins that use mongodb
12:16	jlf	amalloy, technomancy: thanks, i'll try adding the hadoop dependency manually for the moment and report to nathanmarz as well
12:17	Raynes	saml, amalloy: #sexpbot
12:17	amalloy	saml: no, it's the jvm sandbox
12:23	jlf	technomancy: hmm, i noticed that running deps from lein interactive doesn't seem to check for updated dependencies in project.clj
12:24	technomancy	jlf: deps doesn't auto-trigger unless lib/ is empty
12:24	technomancy	though there's code to turn that on in the latest version; disabled by default since it's fairly untested
12:25	jlf	i'd expect deps to rescan project.clj dependencies if its mtime has changed since last invoked
12:26	technomancy	jlf: it checksums the value of the :dependencies map if you turn this option on
12:26	jlf	ah ok
12:27	technomancy	:checksum-deps true in project.clj; will probably be default in 2.0
12:28	jlf	nice, ty
12:29	angerman	yikes.
12:29	angerman	Sandbar is _very_ strange.
12:30	ev4l	good morning everyone
12:30	ev4l	anyone know an easy way to perform the following operation:
12:31	ev4l	i'd like to merge to seqs ("aaa" "bbb" "ccc") and ("111" "222" "333") into a vector of vectors: [["Aaa" "111"] ["bbb" "222"] ["ccc" "333"]]
12:31	ev4l	is there some sort of "vector-interleave" function for it?
12:31	amalloy	$google transpose in clojure
12:31	sexpbot	First out of 243 results is: Matrix transposition - Rosetta Code
12:31	sexpbot	http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Matrix_transposition
12:31	amalloy	ev4l: ^
12:32	amalloy	&(vec (map vector '[a b c] [1 2 3]))
12:32	sexpbot	⟹ [[a 1] [b 2] [c 3]]
12:33	ev4l	amalloy: thanks! i need to get some speed with this seq transformations
12:49	angerman	we'll get rain… the local rainman is drumming again...
12:49	angerman	grr.
12:50	amalloy	ev4l: do you mean, the seq transformation needs to be fast; or, you need to get familiar with seq transformations so you can write them quickly?
12:50	ev4l	amalloy: the latter one. :)
12:51	ev4l	amalloy: pretty ambiguous statement..haha
12:54	Derander	Raynes: sorry :-(.
12:54	Raynes	Derander: I don't mind. Like I said, it was just an observation. :p
12:55	saml	is there a collection of good clojure snippets? to show off people
12:57	dakrone	saml: clojuredocs.org has short snippets for examples for functions, if that's what you're looking for
12:58	amalloy	rosettacode has some, of highly variable quality
12:58	amalloy	$google rosettacode clojure fibonacci
12:58	sexpbot	First out of 39 results is: Fibonacci sequence - Rosetta Code
12:58	sexpbot	http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fibonacci_sequence
12:59	saml	thanks dakrone and amalloy
13:18	clojure-luddite	ok, I haven't touched clojure for a while now. turns out clojure development moved from svn to git, development sites went through google code, assembla, jira, and what not. in github the repositories were changed for clojure and contrib, and the old ones are still what google returns on the top. the docs are totally out of date everywhere, including the very nice clojuredocs. it seems there...
13:18	clojure-luddite	...are multiple schemes for fetching jars and building projects, and every project adheres to only one of those schemes. contrib has been split, rearranged, moved, and some of it imported into core (docs not included). sure, I like it that clojure is innovative and cutting edge, but right now it's a moving target I'm sure even the best of us can't hit. simple file utils went from duck-streams to s
13:18	clojure-luddite	omething else to contrib.io to java.io to who knows where, and I can't find the freaking latest read/write-lines functions. can anybody help find them before I lose it?
13:18	clojure-luddite	sorry /rant
13:20	clojure-luddite	so, anyone knows where I can find the latest read/write-lines?
13:20	technomancy	read-lines was dropped because it's a common cause of resource leaks
13:21	clojure-luddite	so what's the up to date idiomatic way to lazily read lines from a file?
13:22	dakrone	,(doc line-seq)
13:22	clojurebot	"([rdr]); Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader."
13:22	technomancy	need to use with-open+reader to manage the scope of the file opening yourself
13:23	clojure-luddite	was the reader fn that automatically sets up the reader also dropped?
13:23	ampleyfly	technomancy: are you aware of any problems with running "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.0" on windows? yesterday, I got the message that the jar could not be found in any of the places tried (like clojars, I presume)
13:24	dakrone	clojure-luddite: (with-open [r (clojure.java.io/reader "/tmp/foo")] (doall (map println (line-seq r))))
13:25	drewr	dakrone: doseq println please :-)
13:25	dakrone	drewr: right, my mistake :-/
13:25	clojure-luddite	dakrone: wasn't the all purpose of the read-lines to do just that?
13:25	technomancy	ampleyfly: weird, my push didn't seem to go through last night; re-pushed
13:25	technomancy	thanks for the heads-up
13:26	ampleyfly	that explains it =)
13:27	dakrone	clojure-luddite: you're welcome to do (.split (slurp "/tmp/foo") "\n") if you need something simpler
13:28	technomancy	clojure-luddite: the difference is that read-lines closes the file non-deterministically
13:29	technomancy	whereas with-open makes the scope explicit
13:30	devn	someone who writes clojure, but only with pen and paper, not none of them newfangled computar(sic) contraptions
13:33	alpheus	That's honestly the way I learned C. Had a book, couldn't afford a computer.
13:36	sritchie	alpheus: that's the way I went through The Little Schemer
13:37	sritchie	I've been working my way through the exercises in SICP, too -- I do them all by hand, and type them in later, when checking answers
13:46	Lulu58e2	sritchie: by "hand"? Is that a new language?
13:46	devn	nod yeah I'm not making fun of that approach -- i've used it as well, but i find the REPL feedback loop to be really instructive
13:46	Lulu58e2	;)
13:46	sritchie	Lulu58e2: haha, felt like it at first
13:47	sritchie	devn: definitely! The repl's been amazing, switching to clojure. we can't all be don knuth
13:49	Lulu58e2	I feel more like Don Knotts most of the time
13:52	angerman	&(case (keyword ":foo") ::foo "Hi" "Ho")
13:52	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.MapEntry
13:56	amalloy	,(case (keyword ":foo") ::foo "Hi" "Ho")
13:56	clojurebot	"Ho"
13:57	amalloy	angerman: there's something wrong with sexpbot's macroexpansions in certain cases; i'm still not sure why
13:58	hiredman	,::foo
13:58	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
13:58	hiredman	,(keyword ":foo")
13:58	clojurebot	::foo
13:58	angerman	amalloy: hehe :)
13:59	angerman	still sad that (keyword ":foo") != ::foo
13:59	amalloy	angerman: that is not sad at all
13:59	angerman	amalloy: sad for me :)
14:08	amalloy	angerman: sad only if you are crazy. (keyword ":foo") properly "should" throw an exception, but its error handling is minimal
14:10	ataggart	amalloy: it's not clear to me why a keyword's name should be constrained to only those which can be literally represented.
14:19	kumarshantanu	hi, is it possible to access `this` object in (proxy ...) ?
14:19	hiredman	,(doc proxy)
14:19	clojurebot	"([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, mu...
14:21	dnolen	,(keyword (str ns) "foo")
14:21	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
14:21	dnolen	,(doc keyword)
14:21	clojurebot	"([name] [ns name]); Returns a Keyword with the given namespace and name. Do not use : in the keyword strings, it will be added automatically."
14:22	dnolen	angerman: ^, that doesn't work for you?
14:33	dnolen	I don't suppose anyone here's read the Dybvig Subcontinuations paper.
14:37	devn	amalloy: the more i look through your utils the happier i am -- im looking through my projects and adding to a devn/utils.clj \|\| devn/utils/macros.clj
14:38	devn	in a fork
14:38	amalloy	devn: glad to hear you have your own utils. what do you mean by "in a fork"?
14:39	devn	i forked the project and am adding mine in a devn.utils ns -- not sure if you'll want to pull them back in, but i figure it could be neat to generalize the project and make it a mix of different clojurians' utils
14:39	devn	so i could do dnolen.utils, amalloy.utils, etc.
14:39	amalloy	interesting
14:40	amalloy	i hadn't thought of that, and i think it would wind up with somewhat too much bloat if it caught on, but as long as it's unpopular it's pretty clever :)
14:40	devn	haha yes i was just thinking the same thing
14:41	devn	however, with judicious pull requests it could mean that duplicated effort is not cool
14:41	devn	i phrased that wrong: what i mean to say is, generalizing the project to make it less specific to one person and making it sort of a swiss army knife of things that aren't in contrib, could be cool
14:42	dnolen	wow, Simon Peyton Jones, Amr Sabry, Dybvig: A Monadic Framework for Subcontinuations (2005).
14:42	devn	even if it was a giant project, if it was well-organized by category, it could be a really useful set of things which dont fit in contrib
14:42	technomancy	isn't contrib just a set of things that don't fit anywhere else? that didn't work out so well.
14:43	jlf	amalloy: btw adding the hadoop dependency resolved the issue, cheers
14:44	devn	technomancy: how did contrib not work out?
14:46	amalloy	devn: it's being modularized for 1.3
14:47	devn	wow...someone is out of the loop
14:48	amalloy	no kidding
14:48	devn	ouch
14:51	devn	technomancy: well, im not acting like it's revolutionary -- but it would mean a bit less ceremony for people to just drop a nice resuable function in here and there
15:21	devn	i think i killed chat
15:33	amalloy	devn: looks like you deleted the fork and created a separate repo?
15:34	not-timmc	Watching from over here in my don't-hide-even-JOINs-and-PARTs account, I now see that empty conversational space is in fact filled with virtual users popping into and out of existence.
15:39	devn	amalloy: i did
15:39	devn	going to roll my own amalloy
15:40	amalloy	very well...only know, you can never equal the true amalloy!
15:40	devn	i have like 50-60 mini toy projects that have snippets here and there, just spending the rest of the day walking through them and compiling what I like
15:40	devn	amalloy: :D
16:03	mec	Any thoughts on making this implementation of life a bit faster? Currently it takes about 1/4 of a second to iterate https://gist.github.com/885740
16:05	raek	you are dereferencing the world a lot (not a very expensive operation, maybe). any reason why you don't swap! instead?
16:07	amalloy	reset! is crazy when the new state depends on the old state, even if it won't improve performance to change to swap!
16:08	mec	I checked and dereferencing once vs for each cell makes no difference.
16:08	mec	I suppose I could switch to swap! but then i'd have to pass world to all the functions
16:08	raek	(using reset! that way is unideomatic, that's all)
16:09	amalloy	the horror. those functions all depend on the world; you're just pretending they don't by making the world a global
16:09	dnolen	mec: you should expect any game of life implementation written that way to be slow.
16:09	dnolen	mec: https://gist.github.com/420036, similar and can do 2000x2000 in 480ms.
16:09	mec	dnolen: thanks i'll have a look
16:11	brehaut	dnolen: thats 1.3 code?
16:11	dnolen	brehaut: pretty sure 1.2
16:12	brehaut	so it is
16:12	raek	protocols supported primitives, but not functions?
16:12	raek	hrml, that makes sense, though
16:13	dnolen	raek: protocol don't support primitives.
16:13	raek	ah, definterface, I see
16:14	brehaut	ah right. thats where i went wrong too
16:14	mec	is this better? https://gist.github.com/885740
16:18	amalloy	mec: next-world isn't passing along the world arg
16:19	mec	ya i fixed those
16:21	mec	i was hoping i could get next-world faster with pmap, but it was actually slower
16:21	amalloy	so this is not at all a performance issue, and really kinda questionable style advice too, but you could avoid repetition by defining update-cell as (apply alive? (map #(% world x y) [cell neighbors]))
16:25	amalloy	errr, ends with [count-neighbors get-cell]
16:25	mec	dnolen: how come cells is defined as ^longs ^longs but only ever used as a plain array
16:25	amalloy	or the other way round, whatever. you see what i mean, i hope
16:26	mec	amalloy: less repetition but harder to comprehend i think
16:26	amalloy	up t'you
16:26	amalloy	actually that map is a little more verbose than necessary: ((juxt get-cell count-neighbors) world x y)
16:27	amalloy	which is basically what juxt is for
16:27	mec	now thats not bad
16:28	amalloy	technomancy, raek: we have another juxt fan
16:28	raek	amalloy: :)
16:28	raek	nice fit
16:33	dnolen	mec: what do you mean used as 'plain array' ?
16:34	mec	(aget cells n)
16:36	dnolen	mec: that's how Clojure array support works. i.e. aget-long would be wrong and slow.
16:36	mec	Is there any difference using ^longs ^longs cells over ^longs cells?
16:37	dnolen	mec: multidimensional array access is slow.
16:37	brehaut	dnolen: i think mec is talking about your type hint on line 12
16:38	dnolen	heh, typo
16:38	dnolen	fixed
16:38	mec	ah
16:39	mec	I couldnt figure out why it was hinted as a 2 dimensional array but built and accessed as one dimensional
16:39	dnolen	mec: yeah sorry about that.
16:40	dnolen	while I'm at it: defrecord -> deftype.
16:40	dnolen	no need for defrecord here.
16:41	brehaut	dnolen: can you explain that distinction a bit more?
16:42	dnolen	brehaut: between deftype and defrecord?
16:42	mec	yes please
16:42	brehaut	yeah, in particular in this context
16:43	Licenser	aloa
16:44	dnolen	defrecord creates fields for metadata and an extension map, not required here. It also declares a lot of unnecessary methods.
16:44	brehaut	thanks
16:47	mec	Now some UI code, be gentle its my first time ;p https://gist.github.com/885740
16:50	mec	Although it is somewhat copied from the ants demo
16:56	brehaut	mec, you've copied an old style meta hint for Graphics
16:56	brehaut	just use a hat, you dont need the hash any more
16:57	brehaut	mec (line 53)
16:57	mec	thanks
16:58	mec	was thinking that was in 1.3 for some reason
16:58	brehaut	my memory of these things is shaky, but i think its 1.2
16:59	mec	ya it works fine
16:59	amalloy	brehaut: i think that's correct, but i've never written any 1.1 code
17:00	brehaut	mec asside from being a giant bag of globals your swing code is as decent as swing code normally gets :P
17:01	mec	Hows the bottom there? I was using agents like in the original ants, and I just kind of guessed at how to correctly do this
17:01	mec	with futures
17:01	brehaut	looks fine
17:01	amalloy	augh dorun/for. plz use doseq
17:03	mec	thanks I can never remember which combination that is
17:03	amalloy	re: globals, this code seems pretty easy to wrap up into a big let instead
17:04	brehaut	i think that (dorun (for is another artifact of the ants demo being such old code
17:04	mec	is there a shortcut for doall/for
17:05	brehaut	i think that would also be doseq
17:06	brehaut	it just makes you be explicit that its side effecting (because it doesnt return the head)
17:06	Caffeine	I'm writing my first potentially big enough Clojure program and I'm wondering if there is a commenting convention for documentation production, like what is JavaDoc to Java.. ??
17:07	mec	I think the autodoc for like http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html is just the function comments
17:08	_ato	Caffeine: do you mean like /** ... */ ? Clojure has explicit docstrings, eg (defn foo "Docs go here" [])
17:09	semperos	you can use marginalia and include comments in markdown format, both in your function docs and throughout your code base
17:10	semperos	https://github.com/fogus/marginalia
17:10	technomancy	_ato: thanks for the thorough reply re: clojars ops =)
17:11	Caffeine	_ato: ahh I think that's what I'm looking for
17:12	_ato	technomancy: no worries. I'm not too good at documenting things until someone asks me :p
17:13	Caffeine	_ato: semperos: I know how to make comments, but I want the standard Clojure way of documenting, so that it's conform and that I could eventually generate documentation .. kindof javadoc but not necessarily that.. dunno how that would be called for clojure... ClojureDoc?
17:13	semperos	marginalia generates documentation
17:13	tsdh	If I have a seq of 1-ary predicates, how can I combine them using AND into one function?
17:13	semperos	it's not formatted like javadoc, but it's worth a look to see if it suits your needs
17:13	Caffeine	semperos: ok good, thanks!!
17:14	semperos	np
17:14	_ato	Caffeine: also have a look at http://tomfaulhaber.github.com/autodoc/
17:14	Caffeine	yeah it should be okay, I don't need any particular format, just good looking.. better looking than through code, that is
17:14	Caffeine	_ato: ok thanks
17:14	semperos	autodoc is what is used for the official api docs, whereas marginalia is like read through your code with help; you probably want autodoc
17:15	semperos	*like reading
17:15	Caffeine	ahh probably then
17:15	mec	tsdh: #(apply and (apply juxt predicates) %)
17:16	tsdh	mec: I've thought it would be something with juxt. :)
17:16	brehaut	on #clojure its always something with juxt
17:17	mec	hmm that doesnt quite work because and is a macro
17:17	brehaut	#(and %&)
17:18	amalloy	mec: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/899349c6a9b526e0/41f1a8012f861309?show_docid=41f1a8012f861309
17:18	amalloy	brehaut: that function is equivalent to identity
17:18	amalloy	oh, and tsdh also, ^
17:18	brehaut	oh so it is
17:19	tsdh	I've just got aware of that...
17:19	mec	identity would work, it doesnt handle varargs
17:20	mec	r/would/wouldnt
17:20	brehaut	mec, amalloy is pointing out that due to the magic of macros etc, that function i wrote is just an identity
17:20	amalloy	mec: my point is that brehaut's implementation doesn't work. it's not exactly like identity, but it's close
17:20	brehaut	it doesnt actually apply and
17:20	amalloy	it's more like (complement (comp zero? (comp count list)))
17:20	brehaut	(or more correctly, it applies and but its not what you think)
17:20	amalloy	ie, "true iff you pass at least one arg"
17:21	amalloy	not sure why i used two comps, there
17:21	amalloy	(comp pos? count list)
17:21	tsdh	mec: Then I'll use this AND: #(if %1 %2 false)
17:22	amalloy	tsdh: #(when %1 %2)
17:23	mec	(fn [arg] (reduce #(and %1 %2) ((apply juxt predicates) arg)))
17:23	mec	(fn [& predicates] (fn [arg] (reduce #(and %1 %2) ((apply juxt predicates) arg))))
17:24	tsdh	Oh, that's nice.
17:24	mec	lol i just opened that page amalloy linked, its almost exactly that
17:25	mec	(defn conjoin [& preds] (fn [& args] (every? (fn [arg] (every? #(% arg) preds)) args)))
17:25	brehaut	&(apply every? identity ((juxt (constantly true) pos?) 1))
17:25	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$every-QMARK-
17:26	brehaut	&(every? identity ((juxt (constantly true) pos?) 1))
17:26	sexpbot	⟹ true
17:26	brehaut	&(every? identity ((juxt (constantly false) pos?) 1))
17:26	sexpbot	⟹ false
17:31	amalloy	i've finally figured out a way to use paredit-convolute-sexps!
17:32	amalloy	it makes it easier to turn (if test (f a1 a2 special-value) (f a1 a2 other-value)) into (f a1 a2 (if test special-value other-value))
17:33	brehaut	thats cool
17:34	mec	all I can do is move parens around, i havnt figured out how to move sexprs
17:34	amalloy	mec: with paredit mode, you're not allowed to move parens anymore :P
17:34	mec	what do you mean? thats all I use paredit for
17:35	amalloy	i mean, all of the paredit functions operate on sexps. that happens to cause parens to move around in some cases, but you're always working with sexps
17:36	amalloy	maybe it's just a spiritual thing, i dunno
17:37	mec	lol all i have interned is C-<left> and C-<right>
17:37	pauldoo	when inside a transaction, is there a way to 'deref' but without without the guarantees of the transaction? I.e. I want to get some value out the ref, but don't want it to cause my transaction to fail on commit
17:37	brehaut	mec learn M-s and C-k next
17:38	amalloy	eg paredit-forward-slurp-sexp doesn't "move a paren forward", it "modifies current sexp to include next sexp, then deletes next sexp"
17:38	amalloy	brehaut: i rarely use M-s
17:38	TimMc	mec: C-M-k kills the next form. Very useful.
17:38	amalloy	M-<UP> ftw
17:38	mec	oo how do you kill previous
17:38	pauldoo	I guess I can deref before entering the transaction and grab the last comitted value, and then use that inside the transaction
17:39	pauldoo	just wondering if I can do that from inside the transaction
17:39	mec	you can deref inside a transaction to grab the latest if you're retried
17:39	amalloy	mec: i don't think paredit has a command for that. you don't really need it
17:40	mec	amalloy: right M-<UP> is what i wanted
17:43	amalloy	mec: M-<DOWN> and M-r are similar to that, if you want to do something slightly different
17:44	mec	my m-l and m-r just move the cursor a word
17:45	amalloy	M-r, really?
17:45	brehaut	my problem with paredit is that ive interned enough of it to be useful (and so that i dont have to reference the cheat sheet) but ive forgotten what i havent interned
17:45	ejackson	brehaut: I even have the damned cheatsheet on my desk, and fail to look at it.
17:45	amalloy	try C-h k m-r, or C-h f paredit-raise-sexp
17:46	mec	i gave up trying to remember too much, it takes more time to look it up than just do something by hand
17:46	amalloy	those two should be bound to each other
17:46	mec	a ya m-r does
17:52	amalloy	brehaut: if you find yourself wondering whether paredit can do X for you, try C-h f paredit-<TAB>, maybe?
17:52	brehaut	amalloy: its not that i wonder, its that i dont wonder. im using it to half efficiency but its so much more efficent than not that i never stop to learn more
17:53	amalloy	feh. always wonder. improve your tools. various curmudgeonly unhelpful advice
17:54	brehaut	im sure ive mentioned my non-tool-using monkey ways before. i spent my time wondering about my code and not about the tools.
17:54	brehaut	and despite trying a lot, i cant seem to rewire my brain to think about both
17:55	Licenser	clojure is pretty darn sweet for sysadmin tasks :D
17:56	ejackson	Licenser: despite the startup time ?
17:56	Licenser	ejackson: yap doesn't matter
17:56	ejackson	i guess if its cron, who cares ?
17:57	Licenser	It's a data collection task
17:57	Licenser	so even 1m startup won't be trouble
17:58	Licenser	I've a program to ssh to multople hosts, run commands collect the results and evaluate the output
17:59	mec	Do I still use proxy for an abstract class?
18:01	Licenser	https://gist.github.com/51d43bff9d076d36f4f3 < reads ifconfig -a and parses the interface details
18:01	Licenser	darn easy :)
18:07	amalloy	mec: reify
18:07	amalloy	(that is, you can use proxy, but reify is much lighter-weight and usually suffices)
18:08	mec	reify doesnt allow abstract classes
18:11	amalloy	really?
18:11	amalloy	&(doc reify)
18:11	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([& opts+specs]); reify is a macro with the following structure: (reify options* specs*) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of the protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodName [a... http://gist.github.com/886009
18:12	mec	deftype is the same way
18:12	amalloy	clojure's big "screw you" to implementation inheritance i guess
18:13	mec	They throw an exception if you call a method from an interface that isnt explicitly defined right?
18:13	TimMc	amalloy: Rich was pretty clear on that in one of his talks.
18:14	amalloy	TimMc: sure, and i'm happy to not be allowed to define abstract classes
18:14	amalloy	but it seems like the definition of reify (both in english and in clojure) is compatible with an abstract class
18:15	mec	well for swing I either proxy WindowAdapter or reify WindowListener and have to specify all the methods myself
18:17	TimMc	I haven't done much work in Clojure that requires a bunch of functions to all operation on the same custom data structure, but namespaces seem to work fine.
18:19	amalloy	TimMc: it seems to me that you are arguing against a point nobody is making
18:20	TimMc	haha
18:33	amalloy	you have to wonder how anyone could write the WindowAdapter class and not ask themselves "is my language so lame that i really have to do this?"
18:42	ossareh	morning
19:00	amalloy	wow, immutability has gotten really deep in my head. i saw the following PHP (no, no idea what the code is actually for) and was sure it could never terminate: while (isset($PROFS[$desc]['end'])) {$desc .= '*';}
19:01	dnolen	finally something worth using clj-cont for, nestable engines / coroutining.
19:11	TimMc	amalloy: Well, it was an issue I ran into with Javascript, for instance.
19:11	TimMc	I'm delighted that I haven't had the same problem yet in Clojure.
19:11	amalloy	what issue/problem?
19:14	TimMc	Not having a good way of organizing a group of functions that all operate on the same custom data structure.
19:14	TimMc	None of the techniques I tried in JS was very satisfying.
19:26	lucian	TimMc: uh, classes?
19:26	TimMc	lucian: In JS?
19:26	lucian	TimMc: sure. they're just more verbose to write
19:27	lucian	look at CoffeeScript's classes
19:27	lucian	note what they compile to http://jashkenas.github.com/coffee-script/
19:27	TimMc	Well, that's not raw JS.
19:27	lucian	doesn't matter, you can write the raw js if you want
19:27	lucian	or you can use one of the many (and tiny) libraries that can do that for you
19:28	lucian	but really, there's no reason not to use CoffeeScript if you like
19:28	TimMc	My experience with JS predates CoffeeScript. :-)
19:29	TimMc	I may investigate it.
19:59	TimMc	Anyway, I now find it convenient to represent a "class" as a namespace full of constructors, accessors, and other methods. Then I (:require [class :as c]) so can do (c/constructor ...) etc. Seems to be a useful and natural pattern.
20:09	amalloy	TimMc: why are you doing this kind of oop in clojure? interop or something?
20:09	TimMc	Nah, it just seemed natural a couple of times.
20:10	amalloy	i'd like to take your word for it, but criticism and evangelism are so much more fun :)
20:10	TimMc	:-)
20:12	TimMc	To use a weak but close at hand example, I had a representation for triangles in my 3D rendering program. I wanted to keep implemenation details from leaking to the rest of the program, so I kept them in one namespace: https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW4/blob/master/src/timmcHW4/tri.clj
20:13	TimMc	As it turns out, I'll probably need to redo the implemenation drastically for HW5, so this abstraction barrier may have to fall anyway.
20:15	amalloy	i'm not against this sort of separation of concerns. i thought you actually meant (defn constructor) and other gross OO stuff like mutators
20:16	amalloy	and +1 for the unicode. i intend to configure emacs to let me type in that crap more easily sometime
20:16	amalloy	(good idea or no)
20:17	Frozenlock	Greetings gentlemen, I'm currently trying to install clojure with swank and slime. I downloaded swank with the ELPA, but now that I'm trying to M-x slime, I'm unable to get the swank-clojure jar file. "byte-code: Failed to download Clojure jars." I would be very grateful if one of you could give me a hint on how to proceed.
20:18	technomancy	Frozenlock: the swank-clojure readme should have you covered; short version is instead of M-x slime you use lein swank plus M-x slime-connect
20:20	Frozenlock	Oh thank you, I'll read that right away
20:20	no_mind	is there a way to have dynamic routes in compojure instead of hardcoding the routes in a function ?
20:21	brehaut	no_mind: what do you mean by 'dynamic' ?
20:22	no_mind	brehaut, I want to define a ogic in which based on the url, the application should dispatch the request to suitable module. for eg. a url abc.com/home/add should call add function in a module called home
20:23	brehaut	ogic ?
20:23	amalloy	logic, smartypants
20:23	brehaut	oh right :)
20:23	brehaut	i thought it was an abbreviation i didnt know
20:24	amalloy	sometimes i wonder if "logic" is something i don't know about
20:24	hiredman	no_mind: https://github.com/hiredman/graft
20:26	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/place-for-things
20:27	technomancy	hiredman: ITYM "utils"
20:27	technomancy	oh wait, nm
20:27	hiredman	I know what you meant
20:27	technomancy	I thought "place-for-things" was your "bucket-o-stuff" repo
20:29	brehaut	do you attach an arbitrary ring handler into a compojure app?
20:30	brehaut	can you just put it in place of the (GET whatever) ?
20:30	hiredman	I donno
20:30	hiredman	dunno
20:30	brehaut	no matter
20:30	hiredman	I haven't done any compojure in maybe a year or more
20:31	brehaut	neither. i switched to moustache and never looked back
20:39	ossareh	brehaut: what are the key differences between moustache and compojure? I took your advice on the enlive vs hiccup and chose enlive and <3 it a lot.
20:39	brehaut	ossareh: much smaller than between enlive and hiccup
20:39	ossareh	you mean the reasons are?
20:40	brehaut	the difference sorry
20:40	brehaut	they both achieve very similar things
20:40	brehaut	and through quite similar mechanisms
20:41	ossareh	i've been butting heads with compojure in a few ways recently - most notably I want email addresses in my routes and I need to supply a regexp to clout to get that to work.
20:42	brehaut	the biggest differences as far as i can see is that moustache's RHS of a route basically has to be a ring handler function, whereas compojure has a lot more flexibility there
20:42	brehaut	i think in terms of actually routing facilities the two are about equal
20:43	brehaut	biggest difference is that moustache requires a vector of rules to match, whereas clout has some sugar to let you use a string
20:44	brehaut	personally i have a preference for moustache's simplier apps; its very clearly glue for ring handlers
20:45	brehaut	ossareh: heres a very simple example https://github.com/LauJensen/SocialSite/blob/master/src/socialsite/core.clj#L83-96
20:53	technomancy	is compojure mostly just routing?
20:54	brehaut	technomancy: give or take yeah
20:54	brehaut	all the non-routey stuff got extracted out into other libraries (including the routing engine 'clout')
20:55	brehaut	it knows how to take a bunch of different types of things and turn them into responses, and has some utilities for applying middleware too
20:58	TimMc	amalloy: In Ubuntu (probably thanks to GNOME) I just use C-S-u and type the hex code for Unicode -- works in Emacs and everything. In this case, I used copy and paste. :-P
20:59	amalloy	that's control-super-u?
21:00	amalloy	doesn't do anything for me
21:00	TimMc	Ctrl-Shift-u
21:00	TimMc	C-U, sorry
21:00	technomancy	M-x ucs-insert if you want to use the code-point's name
21:01	technomancy	‽ is especially handy for functions that are destructive but also happen to be predicates
21:01	amalloy	laugh
21:01	hiredman	wow
21:02	hiredman	growl rendered that as an alpha and an omega
21:02	technomancy	you and your ridiculous MacRoman.
21:02	amalloy	(defn was-eaten‽ [atom] (reset! atom nil) true)
21:03	amalloy	aw, i forgot to write "eat it" in there, whatever
21:09	ossareh	I kinda sorta hate AOT.
23:27	devn	goal
23:44	amalloy	devn: you could probably list all existing namespaces and require them all
23:46	_ato	devn: if you write a program that uses every core function purposely (like it actually achieves something useful with each) I will be extremely impressed :D
23:46	_ato	for the ultimate challenge use every core function exactly once
23:47	devn	_ato: I was thinking I might start with the cheat sheet
23:47	devn	and then work my way out
23:47	devn	How many core functions (that are usable) are there?
23:47	devn	and by usable I mean "regular" and "occur in regular programs"
23:47	devn	I think it's somewhere around 4-600?
23:55	amalloy	devn: heh. 4 <= x <= 600? surely you can manage a smaller window than that