#clojure – 2011-03-19

2011-03-19

01:16	Lulu58e2	I'm using Slime+Swank and C-c C-k keeps giving me an error about a seemingly out of date file; is there cached files or something I need to clear out?
01:18	Lulu58e2	I'm hacking around and tried putting :reload in my :use libspec (not sure if I have the terminology right there)
01:18	Lulu58e2	Also tried recompiling all of the required libs
03:43	Lulu58e2	I figured out my slime issue: upgraded to emacs 23.2, Swank-Clojure 1.3.0_SNAPSHOT and Slime 20100404.1
06:09	khaliG	the java compatibility thing seems to be a bit of a double edged sword. you get a lot of libraries, but the clojure wrappers are usually incomplete or partial ones (just enough for the authors needs), which means there is this tension of not quite being able to do what you want, with the given library. Is this a fair assessment?
06:10	brehaut	khaliG: you are supposed to just be able to do what you want with the java library; any wrapper is merely a convenience
06:11	tomoj	of course there is plenty of that tension with the java libraries themselves, just like everywhere else
06:11	raek	I get the feeling that clojure was built to be able to use "pholosophically compatible" libraries (e.g. immutable objects) without wrapper libs
06:11	Chousuke	A better way to put it is that Java APIs are usually not very idiomatic in functional-style programs
06:12	chitsubr	I've read that the python intepreter prompt is not a real REPL like the clojure prompt is, but couldn't understand the difference why. Is that statement true, and if so, why?
06:13	brehaut	chitsubr: can you link to that claim, i think it needs more detail
06:13	Chousuke	I suppose python lacks "read"
06:13	Chousuke	so technically it's not a REPL
06:13	Chousuke	it's just an EPL :P
06:13	chitsubr	brehaut: yes, I'll try to find the proggit comment thread where that claim was made
06:13	brehaut	Chousuke: it has read; it just happens to be inextricably linked to eval
06:13	raek	I think the argument is something like that you cannot decompose the python prompt into a distinct Reader, Evaluatator and Printer
06:14	khaliG	chitsubr, from memory you can't redefine a function in the repl but i could be wrong about this i don't remember very well since i never really used python
06:14	Chousuke	brehaut: yeah
06:14	brehaut	khaliG: you are completely wrong about that
06:14	khaliG	brehaut, yea, just checking it now
06:15	Chousuke	khaliG: remember to indent properly :)
06:15	khaliG	chouser, heh the repl just complained about just that!
06:15	brehaut	its a mutable dynamic language; changing things is what it does best :P
06:15	chitsubr	here's part of the quote: REPL" has taken on more connotation than just "read, eval, print." When people say they want a REPL they usually mean they want:
06:15	chitsubr	1) An actual interactive prompt. 2) Per-file and per-region compilation into a running image. 3) Some sort of scratchpad that has state.
06:16	khaliG	ok scratch that you can redefine functions
06:16	raek	some clojure users seem to want to avoid using java interop at all costs (i.e. refuse to touch a java lib if it doesn't have clojure wrapper)
06:16	Chousuke	hmm, that's overloading the term a bit too much
06:17	Chousuke	but yeah with clojure you can start a REPL that's connected to a running application and work with it on the fly
06:17	chitsubr	here's the link to the comments : http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g24y3/, the comment I read was made by (search for) rayiner
06:17	Chousuke	I have no idea if that's possible with python
06:18	chitsubr	Chousuke: if I have a running Clojure application, will any REPL I start be connected to it?
06:18	Chousuke	chitsubr: if it's within the same JVM instance, yes
06:18	Chousuke	most of the time it won't be I suppose
06:19	chitsubr	Chousuke: so do I have the ability when starting a REPL ot specify the JVM it should attach to?
06:19	raek	chitsubr: it's the other way around: you start the repl from within an already running instance
06:19	Chousuke	not really. though I think there are ways to do that using the java debugging facilities.
06:20	Chousuke	the most common situation is that you start a repl in slime or something
06:20	Chousuke	and then run your application from there
06:20	Chousuke	and the repl stays running
06:21	raek	well, if you have evaluated (swank.swank/start-repl), every time slime connects to the swank server, a new repl will be created
06:21	Chousuke	technically that should be possible with python too.
06:21	chitsubr	hmm.. so if I want a startup daemon written in Clojure, I would have to first fire up a repl and then run the daemon in it?
06:21	brehaut	chitsubr: that thread is a trainwreck
06:22	Chousuke	chitsubr: only if you need a repl, really
06:22	chitsubr	brehaut: sorry, my bad in linking to it
06:22	brehaut	chitsubr: its my bad for clicking on something that clearly had reddit in the domain
06:22	chitsubr	I was just interested in one comment
06:22	Chousuke	chitsubr: and there are ways of starting a "remote" repl within an application that can be connected to later.
06:22	raek	chitsubr: you could have a -main that starts up the daemon and a repl socket server
06:23	chitsubr	awesome, I'll do some searching for remote REPL's and repl socket servers
06:23	Chousuke	how's the nrepl project doing?
06:23	Chousuke	https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl
06:25	raek	chitsubr: check out clojure.main/repl (http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.main/repl) and http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.server-socket/create-repl-server
06:38	brehaut	Chousuke: chitsubr: BTW, examine pythons ast.parse and __builtin__.compile functions; it clearly has a seperate reader and evaluator. its just not very useful
06:40	chitsubr	brehaut: and the reason it's not very useful is perhaps because python programs aren't represented as python data structures, AFAIK and unlike Clojure
06:41	brehaut	chitsubr: they are; it just happens that OO has specific data structures (in this case AST objects) for everything, rather than prefering generic datastructures (even though it has them)
06:41	chitsubr	brehaut: I've got this (perhaps wrong) idea that Clojure and lisp's repl's are powerful since the programs can be represented by the data structures used in the language
06:41	chitsubr	brehaut: oh ok
06:42	Chousuke	brehaut: of course it has a parser and an AST but that's more of an implementation detail :)
06:42	brehaut	Chousuke: well yes, but if the claim is that python doesnt have a repl because you cant get access to those pieces from python itself, its a faulty claim
06:43	brehaut	(note, im not suggesting that the ast is going to be particularly useful to 99.99% of python developers, unlike a lisp AST)
06:44	chitsubr	brehaut: just to clarify, by lisp AST do you mean a list?
06:44	brehaut	and atoms
06:44	chitsubr	ok
06:44	brehaut	(in the lisp sense, not the clojure sense)
06:44	Chousuke	and in clojure's case, vectors, maps and other things :P
06:44	chitsubr	right, ok
06:45	Chousuke	(sets never get any love in code-is-data discussions)
06:45	brehaut	#9
06:46	brehaut	apparently i fail at using clojurebot
06:47	brehaut	chitsubr: "9. It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10 data structures." – Alan J. Perlis
06:47	chitsubr	brehaut: aha, thanks
06:48	brehaut	chitsubr: the utility of the AST being in the same datastructures you already know the API to manipulate is extremely powerful.
06:49	chitsubr	so Perlis's quote is directly applicable to lisp, but for clojure its 100 functions and four data structures?
06:49	brehaut	clojure just takes the ideas in lisp further
06:49	brehaut	it acknowledges that data does have different shapes, but those shapes generic (sequences, maps, sets, etc)
06:50	Chousuke	chitsubr: all of the data structures can pretend to be sequences, so not really :)
06:50	brehaut	&(seq {:foo 1 :bar 2}) ; ftw
06:50	sexpbot	⟹ ([:foo 1] [:bar 2])
06:52	chitsubr	brehaut: what does the &(...) do?
06:52	brehaut	tells sexpbot to evaluate the code
06:52	chitsubr	oh ok
06:52	brehaut	comma does the same for clojurebot
06:52	brehaut	sexpbot just has a nice feature that helps my tired brain
06:53	chitsubr	:)
06:53	brehaut	such as ##(map inc [1 2
06:53	Raynes	brehaut: >_>
06:54	brehaut	Raynes: what have i done to sexpbot? is he ignoring me
06:54	Raynes	$kill
06:54	sexpbot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
06:54	Raynes	He seems okay.
06:54	brehaut	&(map inc [1 2
06:54	sexpbot	⟹ (2 3) ; Adjusted to (map inc [1 2])
06:54	brehaut	:D
06:54	Raynes	I see.
06:55	brehaut	Raynes: you must have known about this?
06:55	chitsubr	brehaut: cool, some AI I see
06:55	brehaut	chitsubr: hah no
06:55	Raynes	Yes, of course. I assumed you expected the embedded execution to do the same thing.
06:55	brehaut	Raynes: i did; why wouldnt it?
06:56	Raynes	That was weird.
06:56	brehaut	chitsubr: its just a simple parser with an error handler that matchs up any missing parens if it reaches the end of input
06:56	chitsubr	brehaut: ok :)
06:56	brehaut	&(inc 1]
06:56	sexpbot	⟹ 2 ; Adjusted to (inc 1)
06:56	Raynes	brehaut: I don't know. I was just responding to... sigh. I should go to sleep. ._.
06:57	brehaut	its late over here in the future too.
06:58	chitsubr	4 am pst here, I'm off, thanks folks
06:59	brehaut	Raynes: on the other hand, shiny new TJoC
06:59	Raynes	I saw.
08:32	Raynes	chouser: That's one hefty ebook you've got there.
08:32	Raynes	Weighing in at just over 13 pounds, it's certainly a contender for the heavyweight title.
09:13	angerman	nifty.
09:15	__name__	I'm confused.
09:16	__name__	Why does Clojure 1.1 do that:
09:16	__name__	user=> (def a 1)
09:16	__name__	#'user/a 1
09:23	danlarkin	__name__: do what? let you use def?
09:24	__name__	danlarkin: See how it defines a 1 instead of a.
09:24	__name__	m(
09:24	__name__	I've used a non-breaking space, nevermind.
09:24	__name__	That's quite interesting, though
09:25	__name__	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/356042/]
09:25	__name__	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/356042/ even, sorry.
09:25	fliebel	__name__: I wonder if you read a file that contains backspaces, if you could define even weirder stuff :)
09:26	__name__	fliebel: :)
09:26	__name__	I think the nbsp should not be allowed in identifiers.
09:26	__name__	No whitespace should, imo.
09:26	danlarkin	__name__: yeah if you just replace your nbsp with another character that behavior becomes more clear
09:26	fliebel	__name__: How did you insert one?
09:26	__name__	fliebel: I had it set to shift+space
09:27	__name__	danlarkin: Yes, I just really think no whitespace should be legal in identifiers.
09:27	__name__	*allowed evenn
09:28	fliebel	__name__: Problem is ther eis a lot of dubious whitespace in unicode.
09:28	__name__	fliebel: Yeah; would it really be a problem just to exclude them all?
09:28	__name__	It's also that I'm not a big fan of Unicode in code anyway :)
09:32	fliebel	__name__: I think it's great, we just need unicode keyboards :D
09:33	__name__	I think ascii is good enough and already widespread, but that's just me.
09:33	__name__	I also use a keyboard not designed for my native language, so I am weird.
09:34	fliebel	__name__: Which are?
09:34	__name__	fliebel: I use a 104-key qwerty which does not have some letters on it I need for my language.
09:35	__name__	ö, ä, ü and ß.
09:45	fliebel	__name__: Ah Germany :) My lang does not have these, but I can do them… ö ä ü ß
09:45	__name__	I can do them as well, I have a compose key ☺
09:46	angerman	,(map vec [1 2 3] [2 3 4])
09:46	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$vec
09:48	angerman	,(doc unless)
09:48	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
09:55	fliebel	&(map vector [1 2 3] [2 3 4])
09:55	sexpbot	⟹ ([1 2] [2 3] [3 4])
09:55	fliebel	angerman:
09:56	angerman	fliebel: thanks. Guess that would be better than (partition 2 (interleave …)) :D
09:57	angerman	lol.
10:00	__name__	fliebel: But actually I come from Austria, not Germany :)
10:01	angerman	__name__: so you to the cheap gasoline and huge ski resorts :D
10:01	__name__	angerman: I don't use a car, but yes :)
10:02	angerman	__name__: hehe. It's not that far from here.
10:03	angerman	too far though for it to be economical to refuel in austria...
10:07	phenom_	,(type (vector-of :byte))
10:07	clojurebot	clojure.core.Vec
10:09	__name__	angerman: Where are you from?
10:10	angerman	Munich
10:10	angerman	well, that's where I live.
10:10	__name__	People from Passau refuel in Austria :)
10:10	angerman	yea, but Passau
10:11	angerman	's not that far off the boarder :D
10:11	__name__	Passau is nice.
10:12	angerman	don't know. This is actually foreign territory to me. I'm actually from the strip of land between the baltic and north sea.
10:12	__name__	Hamburg?
10:13	angerman	north of that :)
10:13	__name__	(territory, not city.)
10:14	angerman	not even :)
10:14	__name__	Oh wait.
10:14	__name__	Schleswig-Holstein?
10:14	angerman	Right behind my parents home is the ancient danish border.
10:14	angerman	__name__: yes.
10:14	__name__	I thought that belonged to Hamburg :(
10:14	__name__	But Hamburg is city and territory at once, it seems.
10:15	__name__	You learn something new every day :)
10:15	angerman	__name__: yes. We have some of those city states.
10:15	__name__	angerman: Vienna is one too.
10:15	angerman	Most of the old Hanse states are.
10:16	__name__	Vienna is because it was socialist.
10:16	angerman	__name__: a fellow student keeps telling me that Vienna is weird. (He's CBA)
10:16	__name__	And lower Austria was conservative.
10:16	__name__	angerman: What's a CBA?
10:17	angerman	chinese born austrian.
10:17	angerman	He actually served an extended period in the Bundesheer before coming to Germany to study...
10:17	__name__	Is that acronym common?
10:17	__name__	angerman: In which way is Vienna weird?
10:18	patrkris	is it at all possible to use `lein run somescript.clj` since leiningen 1.4.0?
10:18	angerman	__name__: not so sure. Might be because my friends a from many countries and ABC (American born Chinese) is common, other 3 letter abrevations are used.
10:19	angerman	__name__: he sais they talk funny and are weird in general… not so sure about that though. He's from Klagenfurt though.
10:19	__name__	Hahaha, Klagenfurt :-)
10:19	__name__	angerman: I could tell you the same about Klagenfurt :)
10:19	angerman	yea I guess it like the bavaria thing in Germany I guess.
10:20	__name__	Vienna is a bit weird, but I kind of like it
10:20	__name__	The people are a bit more … ehm … direct and … ehm … sincere.
10:23	angerman	__name__: been there only once in my life so far. And that's 6 years ago… the thing I remember most was that the streets were a little dirty.
10:24	__name__	angerman: Paris is worst in that regard.
10:24	angerman	Been last year to Salzburg. That's been quite nice. And the streets were less dirty. But that might have changed in Vienna as well.
10:24	__name__	angerman: Salzburg is just smaller.
10:24	angerman	__name__: yea. Heard about that. But it's the French. So. :D
10:25	__name__	And they don't allow you to go up the steeples of their churches :(
10:25	angerman	And I must admit I like Hong Kong best so far.
10:25	__name__	Stupid Salzburgians(?)
10:25	__name__	angerman: Have not been there.
10:25	angerman	well. Not much a problem for me. I don't care for Churches.
10:25	__name__	I like the view.
10:26	__name__	angerman: Hong Kong is pretty modern, eh?
10:26	angerman	__name__: it's probably one of the few asian cities (Singapore, maybe?) where you can get by with no word chinese (or in this case cantonese).
10:27	angerman	And It's damn clean. People are friendly… it's mostly cheap.
10:27	__name__	angerman: What about Japan?
10:27	angerman	Japan was dead expensive.
10:27	__name__	But they speak English, right?
10:27	angerman	haha!
10:27	angerman	Nice try.
10:27	__name__	No?
10:28	angerman	__name__: as usual the closer you get to the touristy areas the better the english gets.
10:28	__name__	Yeah.
10:28	__name__	But it's rather good in central Europe.
10:28	angerman	And of course you can do all kinds of tours in English and find your way with english. But apart from that… (e.g. if you like to go off track, you can get lost quite fast).
10:29	__name__	I mean, you can get along with only English quite well here in Austria.
10:29	angerman	Even in a semi-central area of Osaka, the bank was unable to help me withdraw money (using a VISA card) in english.
10:29	__name__	I once knew an Australian who lived here.
10:30	angerman	__name__: sure. Europe is different. Apart from France I guess we have agreed on one universal language here.
10:30	__name__	Yea, France is funny.
10:30	__name__	‘Do you speak English?’ made one person say ‘Non!’ as if I had insulted all of his kin.
10:31	angerman	you did.
10:31	__name__	Haha.
10:31	__name__	I speak some French, but I could not understand him.
10:31	angerman	I can hardly read french.
10:31	__name__	There's a huge difference between understanding a language and understanding people :)
10:32	__name__	I mean, I don't think many German non-natives understand people in Vorarlberg.
10:33	__name__	And there are some communication problems between north and south of the German speaking area.
10:33	__name__	I've had people from northern Germany not understand me because the words I use simply do not exist there.
10:34	angerman	__name__: yes I takes me sometimes a bit as well to understand some people around here.
10:34	angerman	But with a little imagination you can usually guess what the word means and from where it comes. Not that I'd ever used it that way or in that context. But I can still make sense of it.
10:35	__name__	Like “Marille”, “Powidl”, “Knödel” …
10:35	angerman	And bavarian is still easier than plattdüütsch.
10:35	angerman	Well Knödel should be known all over Germany.
10:36	angerman	But yes, I wasn't talking about subjectives. :)
10:36	__name__	And the lack of “Weiters” in Germany-German confuses me :)
10:36	__name__	It's a great word.
10:37	angerman	I mean we definitely do not have the work Kren. (Don't know how that's spelled right… It's Rettich)
10:37	__name__	Isn't it Meerettich?
10:37	angerman	__name__: what's Weiters supposed to mean?
10:37	angerman	yes.
10:37	__name__	*Meerrettich even
10:37	__name__	angerman: Similar to “zudem”.
10:38	__name__	“österreichisch auch, weiterhin, darüber hinaus, außerdem, im Weiteren”
10:39	angerman	well you can guess from Weiters that it's a supposed addition. But it doesn't fit grammatically. Closes would be Weiteres, though that's probably further away in meaning.
10:40	__name__	angerman: Weiteres is something different.
10:40	__name__	angerman: Weiters is mosly used eat the beginning of a sentence.
10:41	angerman	I guess we'd use "Im Weiteren" or some construct like that.
10:41	__name__	It's more zudem I think.
10:42	__name__	dwds, e.g., has „Die gerichtsmedizinische Sachverständige erhielt weiters den Auftrag, die Blutproben der Unfallbeteiligten chemisch-toxikologisch sowie deren Kleidung und Ausrüstungsgegenstände auf Spuren zu untersuchen“ in the examples.
10:43	angerman	you could substitute im weiteren… or zudem.
10:43	__name__	im Weiteren sounds odd in that context, but that might be because I am used to weiters.
10:43	angerman	The problem, at least to me, is that weiters does just not sound right.
10:44	__name__	angerman: But it is, the Austrian Dictionary, which is the authority, allows it ;)
10:45	angerman	Language rules are something weird.
10:48	__name__	Yes
10:48	__name__	They messed that up a bit.
10:48	__name__	With all their reforms and revertions of parts thereof.
10:49	angerman	I can live with quite a lot. But the abusive use of 'r' 'u' 'wif', … in HK really start to get annoying.
10:49	__name__	HK?
10:49	angerman	luckily they have yet to penetrate the government.
10:49	angerman	Hong Kong
10:50	angerman	feels like you ended up in aolbonics land.
10:50	__name__	What's ‘r’ ‘u’ ‘wif’
10:50	__name__	Are you with?
10:50	angerman	yes.
10:50	__name__	Well, be back soon.
10:50	angerman	and that's just the beginning.
10:50	__name__	Nice talking to you.
10:50	__name__	Need to go buy groceries.
10:51	angerman	right, your shops close so early.
10:51	angerman	20min left.
10:51	angerman	lol
10:51	__name__	Yep, we're good Christians :)
10:51	angerman	bawahahahaha.
10:51	angerman	Thor for life!
11:27	devn	Steve Yegge's FOREWORD to JoC is awesome: http://www.manning.com/fogus/excerpt_foreword.html
11:29	TimMc	I like it.
11:34	devn	:)
11:34	phenom_	anyone know why doing byte equality does reflection into clojure.lang.Util ?
11:34	__name__	angerman: Out shops don't close as early as they used to, though.
11:36	angerman	phenom_: switch on the reflection flag?
11:37	angerman	__name__: we consider 8pm in Germany conservative on Saturdays.
11:37	pdk	closing at 8 on a weekend would be lame anywhere
11:38	angerman	pdk: it used to be 4pm
11:39	phenom_	angerman: i have ... i'm doing an equality check on 2 bytes but for some reason it's doing reflection into clojure.lang.Util
11:39	phenom_	for "equiv"
11:44	__name__	angerman: :O
11:45	angerman	__name__: yea. People from outside of bavaria complain on a regular basis that shops close at 8pm.
11:45	angerman	that they close at 8pm thoughout the whole week...
11:54	phenom_	(= (byte 10) (byte 10)) throws a refelction warning ... "call to equiv can't be resolved ..."
11:54	phenom_	,(= (byte 10) (byte 10))
11:54	clojurebot	true
11:55	phenom_	,(set! warn-on-reflection true) (= (byte 10) (byte 10))
11:55	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: warn-on-reflection with set
11:59	TimMc	,(binding [warn-on-reflection true] (= (byte 10) (byte 10)))
11:59	clojurebot	true
11:59	scottj	how come clojure uses same hash for 0 and -1?
12:00	TimMc	,(map hash [0 -1])
12:00	clojurebot	(0 -1)
12:00	scottj	I guess cause java does, why does java? it means you can't (case x 0 something -1 somethingelse)
12:00	TimMc	scottj: Not seeing it.
12:01	TimMc	,(map (comp hash long) [0 -1]) there we go
12:01	clojurebot	(0 0)
12:01	scottj	clojure-version => {:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier "alpha4"} (map hash [0 -1]) => (0 0)
12:02	TimMc	Happens in 1.2 as well.
12:02	TimMc	Oh, interesting -- you're getting that without using long.
12:02	TimMc	,(doc case)
12:02	clojurebot	"([e & clauses]); Takes an expression, and a set of clauses. Each clause can take the form of either: test-constant result-expr (test-constant1 ... test-constantN) result-expr The test-constants are not evaluated. They must be compile-time literals, and need not be quoted. If the expression is equal to a test-constant, the corresponding result-expr is returned. A single default expression can fol...
12:03	scottj	probably tied into 1.3 returning longs by default if it can I think
12:04	TimMc	I had no idea that case used hashes.
12:05	TimMc	scottj: What happens if you do #{0 -1} ?
12:07	scottj	#{0 -1}. (.hashCode 0) and (.hashCode -1) both return 0
12:07	devn	,(hash 0132294329432)
12:07	clojurebot	Invalid number: 0132294329432
12:07	devn	,(hash 01322)
12:07	clojurebot	722
12:07	TimMc	Why the leading 0?
12:08	scottj	base 8 I think
12:08	scottj	,07
12:08	clojurebot	7
12:08	scottj	,08
12:08	clojurebot	Invalid number: 08
12:09	TimMc	I thought Clojure didn't do that!
12:09	TimMc	10r08
12:09	TimMc	,10r08
12:09	clojurebot	8
12:10	TimMc	Oh well. I guess it is using Java's number parsing.
12:10	scottj	what's that syntax mean? any base you want?
12:10	TimMc	yeah
12:10	scottj	cool
12:11	TimMc	,36rnaqk2b
12:11	clojurebot	1408757267
12:11	TimMc	,36rrrrrr
12:11	clojurebot	46645335
12:15	TimMc	,(case (long 0) (long 0) :zero, (long -1) :neg1)
12:15	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching clause: 0
12:15	TimMc	,(case 0 0 :zero, -1 :neg1)
12:15	clojurebot	:zero
12:16	TimMc	,(case -2 0 :zero, -1 :neg1)
12:16	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching clause: -2
12:16	TimMc	Bah, typo.
12:16	TimMc	What do you suppose went wrong with my first case statement?
12:22	devn	,0x2a
12:22	clojurebot	42
12:22	TimMc	,0b1010101
12:22	clojurebot	Invalid number: 0b1010101
12:22	devn	:)
12:23	TimMc	scottj: Interesting, so set seems to work.
12:24	TimMc	scottj: What exactly happens when you write (case -1 0 :zero -1 :neg1) in 1.3?
12:25	devn	,[32e-4 +3.14 888/3 \u0042 \u30DE :?]
12:25	clojurebot	[0.0032 3.14 296 \B \マ :?]
12:32	TimMc	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-426 <-- This is the closest ticket I can find to the long hash issue.
12:41	jarpiain	,(case 'long (long 0) :zero, (long -1) :neg1)
12:41	clojurebot	:neg1
12:43	TimMc	wut
12:44	TimMc	So, in other words... case is entirely fucked.
12:46	incandenza	it says the tests must be compile-time literals, so I don't think (long 0) qualifies
12:47	TimMc	Why does it even compile, then?
12:48	Chousuke	,(case 'test (foo test) :test, (something else) :test2)
12:48	clojurebot	:test
12:49	Chousuke	lists in case specify alternatives
12:49	Chousuke	,(case 'foo (foo test) :test, (something else) :test2)
12:49	clojurebot	:test
12:49	incandenza	ah
12:54	__name__	angerman: are your shops opened at sun?
12:55	angerman	no
12:55	__name__	here only few shops have opened until 8pm.
12:58	TimMc	OK, so the long hash thing is part of that ticket.
12:59	TimMc	I see that the collision is discovered at case's macro runtime, not use-time.
13:07	TimMc	Or wait... is this long hash thing known by the devs?
13:24	mefesto	Hey everyone
13:24	mefesto	I have a project that I'd like to layout like this: http://pastie.org/1690020
13:25	mefesto	Using leiningen for each subdir. How can I make use of the common lib in the other projects? Do I need to do a lein install the common-lib for each change and a lein deps in the server/client subprojects or is there a better way?
13:29	TimMc	mefesto: You can use symlinks and lein checkout dependencies.
13:30	mefesto	TimMc: I'm not clear what you mean, could you expand a bit?
13:32	dpritchett	when's the JoC party?
13:33	TimMc	mefesto: Go to the main Leiningen page and search for "checkout dependencies"
13:35	mefesto	TimMc: cool thanks. Looks like that will work for me. Although a guy I work with is on windows ... too bad for him :)
13:35	TimMc	indeed
13:36	TimMc	That's one of the reasons I can never go back to Windows.
13:36	TimMc	I believe there is some way of making symlink-like things in NTFS, but it isn't in the UI.
14:04	dpritchett	Clojure and JVM pecadilloes are the reason my newest laptop runs OSX. Got tired of all of my favorite niche languages being harder to play with even with Cygwin.
14:43	devn	is clojure niche still?
14:44	devn	i guess it doesn't really matter to me either way, but it seems like the community is growing pretty fast, people are hiring clojure programmers, etc.
14:44	dpritchett	it's not an LCD sort of thing like java, c#, or php
14:44	dpritchett	i mean, you're not going to see many job listings for clojure here in memphis
14:45	TimMc	I'm applying for a position at Akamai where I would be writing Clojure.
14:45	dpritchett	but what I was referring to is my early experiences with clojure node.js and various other comparatively new and exciting languages
14:45	dpritchett	the blog posts and tutorials are always written by someone with a real live posix environment
14:46	dpritchett	trying to follow along under winXP was always frustrating since learning a new language/platform is enough of a headache that mentally translating everything to windows wasn't worth it
14:46	dpritchett	sort of like trying to raise VC for a startup in alabama. you could do it, but it's harder than it needs to be.
14:46	devn	im echoing what someone else was saying -- think it was maybe guy steele at strange loop last year?
14:47	devn	but it's interesting and exciting that new languages are being considered right now
14:47	dpritchett	sure is!
14:47	dpritchett	i regret missing strange loop last year, it's only half a day's drive
14:47	dpritchett	maybe i can get it this year
14:48	devn	im in WI so I drove down (butt was asleep about half way)
14:48	devn	but definitely going to go again -- it's a great mix
14:49	dpritchett	i know at least one guy from Memphis who went... i need to have lunch with him again soon
14:58	devn	hm, time to play with https://github.com/jonromero/music-as-data.git
15:05	scottj	I'm not sure the TIOBE language popularity index relates well to industry, it has Objective-C and Lisp neck and neck
15:05	companion_cube	lisp is as used as objective-C ??
15:07	pdk	maybe with some big technicalities slapped on the way they're counting
15:08	dnolen	scottj: that's combining Common Lisp, Scheme and Clojure I think.
15:09	scottj	dnolen: don't think so, it has scheme separately
15:09	dnolen	scottj: perhaps combining CL then.
15:10	scottj	but I see now how they're doing it. they have 7 sources including job postings on craigslist, bookmarks on delicious, code on google code, projects on freshmeat, books purchases at some retailer, etc
15:10	incandenza	how are they neck and neck anyway? doesn't look like it to me: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
15:12	scottj	oh my bad, I was looking at http://www.langpop.com/ hehe I don't know how I got there looking for tiobe
15:12	devn	incandenza: hal, is that you?
15:13	devn	or are you the samizdat?
15:14	incandenza	I guess I'm not, or I should be incapable of speech
15:15	devn	wait a minute, this is a terminal window, you're just typing, so how do i know you're not hal?
15:35	devn	2 questions: I can't seem to find http://code.google.com/p/jfugue/ in a maven repository, but it seems like it should be there, any ideas on search tools to find its proper home? 2nd related question: what's the best way to get it into my project.clj so it can be redistributed without making people hunt down a jar and add it manually (aside from including it in the repo)
15:37	mrBliss``	devn: I usually look on http://jarvana.com but unfortunately it can't find JFugue.
15:38	devn	yeah i set this up a long time ago and i found an issue for JFugue that stated they were going to make it available there
15:38	devn	so i know it exists somewhere
15:38	devn	i just have no idea where it is...
15:39	TobiasRaeder	hi :)
15:39	devn	'lo TobiasRaeder
15:40	devn	mrBliss``: well, looks like i wasn't alone -- it's on clojars at least...
15:40	devn	mrBliss``: and whaddya know, I happen to be the one who uploaded it
16:05	alexyk	anybody used kendall-tau from incanter?
16:56	TimMc	I had a list of coordinates in n-dimensions, and needed to get the [min max] value for each dimension: ##(map (partial apply (juxt min max)) (apply map vector [[0 1] [2 3] [5 -1] [4 6] [-2 3]]))
16:56	sexpbot	⟹ ([-2 5] [-1 6])
16:56	TimMc	map partial apply juxt!
17:02	devn	hm, jfugue is pretty cool
17:03	TimMc	devn: What is it?
17:03	devn	it's a music library for java
17:03	devn	programming music
17:04	devn	it's big, but i want to write a wrapper for it
17:04	devn	TimMc: it has its own mini DSL for writing notes, rests, lengths of them, etc.
17:04	TimMc	Interesting.
17:05	devn	so (. (new Player) play (Pattern. "C5q Rw")) plays a C5 quarter note followed by a measure-long rest
17:06	devn	I want to write the wrapper, build an abstraction around the way it does notation to make it more data-like instead of keeping it all in a string
17:07	devn	although im not sure how the second part of that would be
17:07	devn	I guess I just want a more generative composable system for writing those strings programatically
17:09	devn	so (generate-chord-progression [2 5 1 {:measures 4}]) could produce something like Dm, G, C, C
17:11	zakwilson	PersistantHashMap lookups are O(log32 n), right?
17:13	devn	zakwilson: yes
17:14	zakwilson	Lookups aren't faster in the transient, are they?
17:15	devn	zakwilson: hm, good question
17:15	zakwilson	I know writes are faster.
17:16	opqdonut	i'd say not
17:16	devn	opqdonut: im guessing you're right but i cant say for sure
17:17	zakwilson	I think I might need to use a Java hashtable if I want more speed.
17:18	raek	I think transients has the same basic structure, but they allow some things to change in-place
17:18	opqdonut	yeah
17:19	opqdonut	no reason for non-transients to have poorer read performance
17:20	zakwilson	That's what I thought, but I figured I'd ask. I'm dealing with some large maps, and the diminishing read performance is starting to hurt.
17:20	zakwilson	Unfortunately, (into (Hashtable.) stuff) doesn't work.
17:21	raek	even if you have about 4 000 000 000 entries, the tree won't have more than 6 levels
17:21	devn	opqdonut: i mean, going with a transient and tersting could show you pretty quickly
17:21	devn	testing*
17:21	Chousuke	transients won't help read performance. :/
17:21	opqdonut	indeed
17:22	devn	oops i read zakwilson say write and not read
17:22	devn	but i mean, it could still be worth trying a transient
17:22	devn	it wouldn't take much to benchmark
17:23	zakwilson	It looks like I'm dealing with 3 or 4 levels, but I'm doing a lot of lookups, so being 3-4 times slower is a big deal.
17:23	devn	what about structmaps? :X
17:24	devn	is that insane?
17:24	zakwilson	The keys are arbitrary strings.
17:24	devn	hmm
17:25	devn	zakwilson: what about using a database or something instead?
17:25	devn	it sounds like you're getting into that kind of territory
17:26	raek	zakwilson: 30000-1000000 entries?
17:26	devn	redis maybe?
17:26	zakwilson	Could database calls actually be faster than in-memory lookups?
17:26	zakwilson	raek: yes, though it could easily go over a million.
17:28	devn	zakwilson: redis is pretty blazing -- depending on the type you get O(1) in quite a few places
17:28	zakwilson	Constant time is good, but what's the overhead?
17:28	devn	there are some config options to care less about consistency and go for speed
17:29	devn	zakwilson: memory is the trade off with redis
17:29	zakwilson	(relative to java.util.hashtable)
17:29	devn	zakwilson: i wish i had a solid answer for you there, but i truthfully do not know
17:30	zakwilson	Memory is a concern too. I've run in to situations where my laptop is barely big enough for a dataset in memory as a Clojure map
17:32	devn	zakwilson: forgive me but I need to ask two things: 1, are you sure your reads are the problem
17:33	zakwilson	devn: yes
17:33	devn	and 2, how do you know
17:33	opqdonut	yeah, with clojure it's reflection that's usually the bottle neck
17:33	zakwilson	devn: because I'm doing tens of millions of them, and it slows down predictably when the dataset gets to a certain size.
17:34	devn	nod -- and that is fine but i think it's always important with performance concerns to have some sort of reliable data to point to that proves it
17:34	devn	ive seen people have terrible performance because of some seemingly innocuous bit of code somewhere else in the program
17:34	opqdonut	zakwilson: ah but your code might still have a constant factor slowdown somewhere else
17:34	devn	opqdonut: exactly
17:34	opqdonut	even though your asymptotics are expected
17:34	zakwilson	I suppose it's been a while since I hooked the profiler up to it.
17:35	devn	zakwilson: im definitely not saying you're wrong
17:35	opqdonut	try turning reflection warnings on, if you haven't yet
17:35	devn	but it's always good to have some hard data to look at and be sure you're attacking the right problem
17:35	devn	and what opqdonut said, but i suspect you've got them on already :)
17:37	devn	opqdonut: one reason you might look at redis is that it has its own virtual memory
17:37	devn	so the size of the set can exceed memory
17:39	devn	a couple of points on that: an OS's page is 4kB, the vsalue of a redis key may touch many pages even if the key is small enough to fit in a single page, and for these reasons, redis objects can be an order of magnitude larger in ram than they are when stored on disk, so if you're using the OS' virtual memory the OS needs to perform and order of magnitude more I/O versus a redis instance with VM
17:39	zakwilson	Yeah, I think it's time to get out the profiler before I try messing with Java data structures, but I'm pretty sure I want a 3-4x speedup if the option exists.
17:40	devn	now the only issue is that you end up needing to store ALL of your keys in memory at all times -- you can swap values to disk, but not keys
17:40	devn	so that poses some memory issues, but the tradeoff is you get some pretty blazing lookups without the extra I/O
17:42	zakwilson	I'm currently ok with everything in memory at once. Values are ints, so no problem there.
17:42	zakwilson	When I start exceeding what my laptop can handle, or making a real product out of this, I'll need to care about real datastores.
17:42	devn	either way, redis is probably worth a look
17:42	devn	you sacrifice some consistency for performance, but overall it's very fast
17:43	devn	the CAP problem and all of that
17:43	zakwilson	Thanks for the pointer to redis. I'm not at all familiar with it, and had been leaning toward Mongo as a place to persist stuff (I'm currently just spitting maps to disk)
17:43	devn	my suggestion is you dont want to use mongo for this
17:44	devn	redis is a k/v store, and that sounds like exactly what you have
17:44	devn	you can use mongo for that, but performance-wise i think redis will be a better fit
17:44	devn	and i say this with absolutely no context about the actual problem you're trying to solve :)
17:45	zakwilson	Well, what I really have is a small map where the values are {string int}, but that seems like it would be easy enough to model with a k/v store.
17:45	devn	when you do a lookup for a key are you just doing something like (:key {:key 1})?
17:46	devn	or is it fuzzier?
17:46	devn	and is it a plain map, not sorted right?
17:46	zakwilson	Correct
17:46	devn	yeah, redis would probably be a good fit
17:46	zakwilson	{"foo" {"bar" 4 "baz" 8}} (to oversimplify)
17:47	devn	one note on redis: if you decide to use it, take your time in configuration
17:47	zakwilson	It's those inner maps that are often huge, though I sometimes have tens of thousands of keys in the outer.
17:47	devn	setup a simple harness for testing configuration changes and play with the config for a bit
17:47	zakwilson	Alright, good to know.
17:47	devn	there are a lot of options -- when we originally used redis we had the VM off and tried to do 1M records off the bat for fun and we were like: "this seems slow..."
17:48	devn	revisiting the config changed all of that
17:49	zakwilson	Have you compared redis reads to in-memory datastructure reads?
18:01	devn	zakwilson: there are benchmarks out there i think but no, not personally.
18:02	zakwilson	devn: thanks for the pointer in the right direction. I probably won't be going for redis just yet, but when I need a real datastore, I'll look in to that.
18:13	quotemstr	The Clojure object-reference syntax is pretty damned neat. Has anyone ported it to CLOS?
18:19	dnolen	quotemstr: object-reference syntax?
18:19	quotemstr	The Java interop stuff.
18:20	quotemstr	In principle, you could implement the same thing with a CLOS system supporting a MOP.
18:20	quotemstr	It's both safer for slots than with-slots, and more convenient for methods.
18:20	quotemstr	Granted, you couldn't map all generic functions --- only those following a certain convention. But most do.
18:32	devn	http://blog.notdot.net/2010/07/Damn-Cool-Algorithms-Levenshtein-Automata
18:45	DollaMan	does using :> in enlive selectors improve performance?
18:54	amac	anyone familiar with pallet/jcloud?
19:02	ekoontz	is there a clojure equivalent of Common LIsp's (progn)
19:03	wooby	ekoontz: 'do'
19:03	brehaut	ekoontz: do
19:03	ekoontz	thanks guys :)
19:04	wooby	amac: a little, you should check out #pallet
19:04	amac	ah, good call
19:09	scottj	quotemstr: if you like that java interop syntax you should look at arc's ssyntax
19:10	Derander	is it possible to do something like (defn new-draw [the-fn] (defn draw-function [g] (apply the-fn g)) (.repaint pane)) where the-fn is (fn [g] (.drawLine g 100 100 10 15))?
19:10	Derander	basically I'm trying to swap out the drawing function of a proxy JPanel and redraw it
19:10	Derander	for lazy repl hacking
19:11	brehaut	Derander: i believe proxys have a way to duck punch their methods on a per isntance basis
19:11	brehaut	but the easiest way would be to close over an atom or ref
19:12	Derander	fair enough
19:13	raek	Derander: also note that the inner defn will create (or modifiy) a _global var_ and is not limited by the lexical scope (use let or letfn for that)
19:14	Derander	yeah
19:14	Derander	I was being lame and hacky. I'm calling draw-function inside of the paintComponent instance method on the proxy
19:14	Derander	so I figured I'd just swap it out and redraw
19:14	Derander	it works if I run (defn draw-function ...) in the repl, but then I also have to run (.repaint panel)
19:14	Derander	I was trying to combine the steps
19:15	raek	Derander: https://gist.github.com/877894
19:15	brehaut	(doc update-proxy)
19:15	clojurebot	"([proxy mappings]); Takes a proxy instance and a map of strings (which must correspond to methods of the proxy superclass/superinterfaces) to fns (which must take arguments matching the corresponding method, plus an additional (explicit) first arg corresponding to this, and updates (via assoc) the proxy's fn map. nil can be passed instead of a fn, in which case the corresponding method will revert to the default behavior.
19:15	raek	I also wanted to have a proxy object that was easy to redefine, so it did it like that
19:16	Derander	raek: I will read and attempt to comprehend this after I try out update-proxy
19:17	raek	a normal call to proxy will result in something very similar to the body of list-cell-renderer, but with an anonynous fn instead of #'prepare-renderer
19:18	raek	instead of replacing which function the proxy should use every time I change something, I let it call the var instead (which will deref it at each invokation)
19:18	raek	update-proxy is a good option too
19:19	brehaut	&(let [p (proxy [Object] [] (toString [] "Hello"))] (prn (str p)) (update-proxy p {"toString" (constantly "foobar")}) (str p))
19:19	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
19:20	brehaut	that was unexpected
19:20	brehaut	,(let [p (proxy [Object] [] (toString [] "Hello"))] (prn (str p)) (update-proxy p {"toString" (constantly "foobar")}) (str p))
19:20	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
19:20	brehaut	oh well. it runs fine in my repl
19:20	Derander	okay, I think this is working adequately
19:21	Derander	update-proxy does the trick
19:21	Derander	thanks all
19:21	raek	it's pretty cool to be able to fix GUI code without even closing the window...
19:21	Derander	noooo kidding
19:21	brehaut	totally :)
19:21	Derander	I'm dicking around with polyganizations and triangulations of point clouds
19:21	Derander	so being able to see changes quickly is nice
19:22	DollaMan	hm.... vars work without deref?
19:22	DollaMan	,(#'first [1 2 3])
19:22	clojurebot	1
19:22	raek	yes, they call the thing they contain
19:22	DollaMan	I thought I had to do ##(@#'first [1 2 3])
19:22	sexpbot	⟹ 1
19:23	raek	(yes, they work without deref in a function position)
19:23	brehaut	DollaMan: they are derefable, but thats not all they are
19:24	DollaMan	so how about my enlive question :)
19:24	brehaut	DollaMan: i dont know if anyone has ever benchmarked it
19:25	DollaMan	I am speaking from a theoretical perspecive
19:25	DollaMan	if I use :> in a selector I am basically saying "search only 1 level deep for the next piece of selector"
19:25	DollaMan	which constrains the search
19:25	DollaMan	which should make it faster in theory
19:26	brehaut	well it is pruning a search space so from a 100 mile view; yes
19:26	DollaMan	I'm just asking if enlive prunes the search or not
19:27	brehaut	dollaman, how about you find out and report back: https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/enlive_html.clj
19:27	brehaut	i think you want to look at compile-keyword (line 295)
19:28	brehaut	and work out
19:28	DollaMan	too hard for me to understand I'm afraid
19:29	DollaMan	cgrand's code is short but hard to understand
19:29	brehaut	we are going to have to disagree on that point
19:29	DollaMan	ok :)
19:45	TimMc	I am totally using α, β, and γ as variable names.
19:45	brehaut	TimMc: amazing
19:45	TimMc	It is wonderful.
19:45	brehaut	without doubt
19:45	amac	pretty
19:46	Derander	is there something like apply that works with java methods? so (.drawOval g oval-coords) would work where oval coords is some vector containing integers [x, y, width, height]?
19:46	Derander	I suppose I could write a clojure wrapper fn
19:47	Derander	oh hey, I suppose I should try apply and see if it works on java methods
19:48	Derander	oh darn, nope.
19:48	raek	Derander: the compiler will look up the signature of .drawOval at compile time. it is possible to do a "apply" using reflection, but if you know the signature at compiletime, that feels a bit bloated to me
19:49	raek	you can do something like (apply #(.drawOval %1 %2) some-coll) though
19:49	Derander	yeah
19:49	Derander	that's what I'll do
19:55	brehaut	Derander: potentiall memfn could help too?
19:55	Derander	brehaut: reading
19:56	Derander	brehaut: yes, I think that works.
19:57	raek	isn't memfn from before the #() syntax was introduced? I think it results in exactly the same thing
19:57	brehaut	raek: maybe?
19:57	brehaut	raek: but there has always been #() as long as ive been following clojure
19:57	raek	http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java Interop-The Dot special form-(memfn method-name arg-names*)
19:58	raek	Note it almost always preferable to do this directly now, with syntax like: [example using #()]
19:58	raek	""
19:58	brehaut	raek: cool thanks :)
19:59	raek	hrm, but with memfn you can name the arguments...
20:00	Derander	(apply #(.drawOval %1 %2 %3 %4 %5) g (point x y)) does not seem equivalent to (apply (memfn drawOval) g (point x y)), but my understanding of the documentation says it should be
20:00	Derander	(point x y is a vector with 4 values)
20:00	Derander	(point x y)*
20:01	devn	raek: crazy you just mentioned that
20:01	devn	raek: i was just reading about something similar
20:02	devn	http://objectcommando.com/blog/2010/05/17/easy-java-interop-with-clojure/
20:03	Derander	oh
20:03	Derander	I understand
20:06	raek	,(macroexpand-1 '(memfn split re limit))
20:06	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [target__3915__auto__ re limit] (. target__3915__auto__ (split re limit)))
20:06	raek	,(macroexpand-1 '(memfn drawOval))
20:06	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [target__3915__auto__] (. target__3915__auto__ (drawOval)))
20:07	raek	Derander: (memfn drawOval) expands to 0-ary function, so that's why you can't apply it with 5 args
20:07	Derander	raek: right
20:07	Derander	raek: that was my "I understand" moment :-)
20:07	raek	ah. :)
20:07	brehaut	Derander: sorry for leading you astray
20:07	Derander	it's fine. I like the memfn syntax better regardless
20:08	raek	for mor than 2 args, it definitely helps with readability
20:14	devn	raek: any existing libs come to mind that are the "gold standard" of wrapper library?
20:14	devn	as in, a wrapper around java code primarily
20:15	brehaut	devn: clojure.core? :P
20:15	devn	ha! yes but it is not "regular" I don't believe. Or is it?
20:15	devn	I'm talking about directly taking a java library and simply writing a clojure "interface".
20:16	devn	There are a lot of choices one has when wrapping a lib. The above example is good proof.
20:16	devn	Readability matters and I'm looking for a very readable and elegant version of a wrapper lib
20:17	devn	that uses clojure.core's existing abstractions
20:18	brehaut	enlive perhaps? its a wrapper around tagsoup i think? (ok, so wrapper sells it short, but nevertheless)
20:18	devn	yeah it's hard to find a wrapper that doesn't introduce additional functionality and muddy the water a bit
20:18	brehaut	yeah
20:18	devn	not really muddying so much as it is improving and enhancing
20:18	devn	still, nice to see a really clean vision of what an elegant wrapper looks like
20:19	brehaut	what about clj-time?
20:19	devn	i was just about to say i bet jodatime was well wrapped
20:19	devn	:D
20:27	raek	devn: well, I dunno what would make up a "gold standard"...
20:28	Derander	is there a simple built-in to do something like this? [[1 1] [2 2] [3 3] [4 4]] -> [[1 1 2 2] [2 2 3 3] [3 3 4 4]]
20:29	Derander	it is not popping out to me in the function list in the api reference
20:29	brehaut	&(partition-all 2 1 [[1 1] [2 2] [3 3] [4 4]])
20:29	sexpbot	⟹ (([1 1] [2 2]) ([2 2] [3 3]) ([3 3] [4 4]) ([4 4]))
20:29	shachaf	Derander: I don't know about Clojure, but you can probably do something like Haskell > (\l -> zipWith (++) l (tail l)) [[1,1],[2,2],[3,3],[4,4]]
20:30	Derander	shachaf: I wish my haskell foo were stronger
20:30	brehaut	&(map concat (partition-all 2 1 [[1 1] [2 2] [3 3] [4 4]]))
20:30	sexpbot	⟹ (([1 1] [2 2]) ([2 2] [3 3]) ([3 3] [4 4]) ([4 4]))
20:30	Derander	brehaut: then map that
20:30	Derander	brehaut: I knew there would be something
20:30	shachaf	Derander: Just zip the list with its tail and then concat the result.
20:30	brehaut	hmm
20:30	brehaut	&(map flatten (partition-all 2 1 [[1 1] [2 2] [3 3] [4 4]]))
20:30	sexpbot	⟹ ((1 1 2 2) (2 2 3 3) (3 3 4 4) (4 4))
20:30	Derander	brehaut: that behavior is actually better -- I need to combine 4 4 at the end with another separate vector
20:31	brehaut	&(map flatten (partition 2 1 [[1 1] [2 2] [3 3] [4 4]])
20:31	sexpbot	⟹ ((1 1 2 2) (2 2 3 3) (3 3 4 4)) ; Adjusted to (map flatten (partition 2 1 [[1 1] [2 2] [3 3] [4 4]]))
20:31	Derander	shachaf: haha. I am reading learnyouahaskell right now
20:31	Derander	shachaf: it's on my list of languages to learn when not sleep deprived
20:32	Derander	brehaut: partition is such a useful function. perhaps this time it'll stick in my mind
20:33	DollaMan	how do I make a handler in Ring which returns an image (or other non-text data)
20:34	DollaMan	how do I host images in Ring
20:34	brehaut	DollaMan: ring response maps are allowed to have a file as the body
20:34	DollaMan	java.io.File?
20:34	clojurebot	chouser: Some high-tech profiling with Activity monitor and println shows that I'm doing 100% of one core and not so much IO, though the number of files being read is huge(I estimate 5 per second).
20:35	DollaMan	what about a stream?
20:35	raek	DollaMan: you can have an InputStream as a body too
20:35	brehaut	DollaMan: yes; may i suggest examining the ring spec? closely followed by the available middleware https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/SPEC
20:36	raek	DollaMan: my IRC bot has a web server that serves png files piped from dot: http://raek.se/trattern/src/se/raek/trattern/graph.clj
20:36	brehaut	DollaMan: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/file.clj, https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/static.clj
20:37	brehaut	raek: thats a very nice example
20:39	raek	(the result: http://services.raek.se/graphs/irc/quakenet/d1d)
20:39	DollaMan	already implemented what this middleware does :D
20:40	brehaut	DollaMan: time to delete some code then! :D
20:40	amac	raek: neato.
20:45	ataggart	&(/ 1 3)
20:45	sexpbot	⟹ 1/3
20:45	ataggart	&(/ 1 3M)
20:45	sexpbot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Non-terminating decimal expansion; no exact representable decimal result.
20:45	ataggart	anyone else think that should turn into a Ratio?
20:47	amac	probably, that would likely create annoying-to-reproduce bugs
20:47	amac	implementation might be tricky though
20:53	amac	raek: thanks for introducing me to clojure through that code example... very handy.
20:53	amac	err loom in your clojure example
20:55	DollaMan	these ring wrappers can be confusing
20:55	brehaut	DollaMan: how so?
20:55	DollaMan	wrap-static for instance takes my handler as an argument
20:56	DollaMan	but when conditions are met
20:56	DollaMan	it ignores my handler and serves a file
20:56	brehaut	yes
20:56	brehaut	its a middleware; it interposes some logic between your code and the web server
20:56	brehaut	either (or both) on the request or response
20:57	DollaMan	ah..... I see now
20:57	DollaMan	I got confused because the guy was using app variable in code
20:57	DollaMan	which I confused with the app macro of moustache
20:57	brehaut	app is moustache's handler swissarmy knife
20:57	brehaut	oh right
20:57	DollaMan	the git coloring was misleading
20:57	brehaut	i see what you are saying
20:57	DollaMan	the app in let binding wasn't colored
20:58	DollaMan	but in fn call it was
20:58	DollaMan	my bad
20:59	Derander	https://gist.github.com/877961 <-- great success.
20:59	Derander	http://cl.ly/0e3d1D1t340L2g1s241T is the output
21:00	Null-A	Let's say I want a configuration file, both reading in and outputting. Do I require it to read it?, and to output it, what do I do?
21:00	Null-A	some way to serialize a hash-map is lisp reader syntax
21:00	amac	(doc slurp)
21:00	clojurebot	"([f & opts]); Reads the file named by f using the encoding enc into a string and returns it."
21:00	amac	,(doc slurp)
21:00	clojurebot	"([f & opts]); Reads the file named by f using the encoding enc into a string and returns it."
21:01	amac	,(doc spit)
21:01	clojurebot	"([f content & options]); Opposite of slurp. Opens f with writer, writes content, then closes f. Options passed to clojure.java.io/writer."
21:01	Null-A	amac: there's some encoding?
21:02	amac	Null-A: what do you mean?
21:03	amac	oh, no
21:03	amac	your config files are probably just straight text; pass them into slurp and it'll read them just fine
21:03	Null-A	amac: ok, so i'll use print-str to produce the config files from clojure hash maps
21:03	Null-A	I want to use clojure style
21:05	Null-A	er, prn-str is what I want
21:05	Null-A	for output
21:05	Null-A	now I just need the inverse
21:05	amac	you can just dump the map in there &(spit "aoeu.txt" {:a 1})
21:06	amac	slurp/spit are for read/write respectively
21:07	Null-A	amac: slurp returns a string of the file contents
21:07	Null-A	now I want to turn it into a hashmap
21:09	amac	well, not exactly safe but you could use read-string
21:09	amac	(doc read-string)
21:09	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
21:09	amac	(read-string "{:a 1}")
21:10	amac	,(read-string "{:a 1}")
21:10	clojurebot	{:a 1}
21:10	amac	there it goes
21:11	scottj	anyone have a convention they really like for locals that share name of functions? name*, aname, name', name1?
21:11	amac	just be careful that you're basically executing whatever is in your config
21:11	Null-A	amac: ok
21:11	Null-A	amac: thanks!
21:11	amac	scottj: I think * is what is most common, at least to replace core fns.
21:12	amac	Null-A: np. :)
21:13	Null-A	amac: Yah I just found example code that did the same thing "(with-in-str ... (read))
21:13	Null-A	there was a comment "Security risk?"
21:14	amac	yeah, someone could easily write some nastyness into your config file
21:14	amac	your other option is to write a parser, but that's more time consuming
21:15	brehaut	if you only read the config file, but not eval it, there shouldnt be any risk
21:15	Null-A	There's so many security holes on unix systems I think if people have access to your file system
21:15	Null-A	just change dot emacs or something
21:15	Null-A	brehaut: does read-string do eval?
21:16	brehaut	no
21:16	brehaut	,(read-string "#(inc %)")
21:16	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__5464#] (inc p1__5464#))
21:16	amac	brehaut: well, at some point he'll be doing something with that object and it will get evaluated
21:16	Null-A	,(read-string {:a (+ 1 1)})
21:16	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.lang.String
21:16	Null-A	,(read-string "{:a (+ 1 1)}")
21:16	clojurebot	{:a (+ 1 1)}
21:17	brehaut	amac: i might have missed something, but i didnt see any mention of that
21:17	Null-A	,(:a (read-string "{:a (+ 1 1)}"))
21:17	clojurebot	(+ 1 1)
21:17	Null-A	,(eval (:a (read-string "{:a (+ 1 1)}")))
21:17	clojurebot	DENIED
21:17	Null-A	that's pretty cool
21:17	brehaut	yeah
21:17	amac	brehaut: I'm assuming
21:18	brehaut	amac: if its just a config, then it just needs to be data, so you never need to call eval
21:18	brehaut	its no different to using json frinstance
21:24	amac	brehaut: yeah that's true I suppose.
22:02	devn	anyone here read programming clojure, practical clojure, clojure in action, and joy of clojure?
22:02	devn	i know that's a tall order, but they're all fairly short
22:02	devn	as far as programming books go
22:03	devn	im curious and interested to compare notes
22:27	brehaut	seems to me that an library that compiled template snippets to both enlive (using enlive syntax) and javascript using jquery and scriptjure would be pretty awesome
22:31	mec	There doesnt happen to be a way to define java in clojure is there?
22:32	brehaut	mec what do you mean by that? construct java asts and render them to .java source?
22:36	mec	I havnt really thought about how it would be done, but maybe define a java method inline
22:36	brehaut	mec: step back a moment. what purpose do you want this for?
22:39	mec	trying to write some faster math stuff, although im probably doing the hints all wrong
22:40	brehaut	which version of clojure are you using?
22:40	mec	1.2 cant get 1.3 to work right with clojurebox
22:41	brehaut	ok. your a bit out of luck there. typically if you want to call out to some java code for your project, you write the java in a seperate java source tree and let your project tool manage it
22:41	mec	i thought so
22:42	brehaut	it would be pretty horrible to have java just smushed into a clojure block :P
22:43	mec	i don't think its too abnormal, a lot of languages let you inline the lower level language
22:44	brehaut	clojure isnt a lot of languages :P
23:02	scottj	mec: if you can get 1.3 working then you should be able to get a lot closer to java like performance in regular clojure
23:03	mec	I'm trying to find something on that now
23:04	brehaut	mec: what does clojurebox provide you? is it a clojure install + emacs configuration?
23:04	mec	ya for windows
23:04	scottj	it's really nice
23:05	brehaut	does it run ontop of a project tool like lein?
23:06	scottj	I don't think so, it predates lein
23:06	mec	it works with lein swank, but i havnt played with any build tools yet, too painful
23:06	scottj	how does it not work with 1.3?
23:07	scottj	if you start a lein project, use clojure 1.3, then lein swank can you connect to it from clojurebox?
23:07	brehaut	mec lein is your build tool
23:11	mec	does contrib not have an alpha6 release?
23:13	brehaut	contrib is getting a big shakedown for 1.3
23:27	mec	i just dont have a clue how to get clojurebox to run a different version
23:29	scottj	you would run lein swank and then M-x slime-connect
23:30	scottj	I'm guessing now you're running M-x slime, don't do that to connect to a 1.3 running lein swank
23:31	mec	right now i either just start clojurebox or click on a .clj file, i dont use lein
23:33	scottj	well you should learn it :) hopefully it works better on windows now
23:33	scottj	or you can look in the clojure box configs (.el files probabl) and find where it points to the clojure jar and point it to the 1.3 one
23:40	mec	that just gives all sorts of errors
23:41	mec	i believe when i tried lein with 1.3 it wouldnt give me a slime repl at all, just inferior
23:44	mec	do i just do [org.clojure/clojure "1.3.0"] ?
23:51	rdeshpande	hey guys, as a new clojure programmer is it advised to learn on clojure 1.3 instead of 1.2? if so, what resources are recommended for 1.3 learning?
23:52	brehaut	start with 1.2
23:52	brehaut	1.3 is very much an alpha ATM
23:52	mec	...
23:53	mec	lein swank is just giving me the same errors clojurebox did :x
23:53	brehaut	mec: i think it needs -ALPHA6
23:53	mec	brehaut: ya fixed that one
23:54	pdk	1.3 is hardly ready for production use
23:54	rdeshpande	interesting that labrepl has you install 1.3
23:55	brehaut	rdeshpande: more experienced clojure users have good reasons to be wanting to work with 1.3, but if you are starting out 1.2 is the stable release, has the majority of tooling and library support etc
23:59	brehaut	rdeshpande: oh. misread your statement. yeah that is interesting