#clojure – 2011-03-12

2011-03-12

01:50	amalloy	sritchie: postwalk-replace?
01:56	waxrose	greetings
01:57	brehaut	morning waxrose
01:57	waxrose	Morning brehaut . :)
02:00	sritchie_	amalloy: hey, can I ask for an example usage?
02:00	amalloy	&(use 'clojure.walk)
02:00	sexpbot	⟹ nil
02:01	amalloy	&(postwalk-replace {4 5} {1 {2 {4 5} {8 {9 4}}}})
02:01	sexpbot	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 3
02:01	amalloy	oops
02:01	amalloy	&(postwalk-replace {4 5} {1 {2 {4 5} {8 {9 4}} 10}})
02:01	sexpbot	⟹ {1 {2 {5 5}, {8 {9 5}} 10}}
02:02	sritchie_	hey, that's exactly what I was looking for
02:03	sritchie_	oh, well, almost
02:03	sritchie_	that swaps keys, I wanted to swap values
02:03	amalloy	it did both
02:04	amalloy	i included one of each on purpose
02:04	sritchie_	ah, I see
02:05	sritchie_	so, the use here is replacing default values in a map with custom values -- I wanted a function that swaps out k-v pairs
02:05	sritchie_	let me grab what I ended up writing...
02:09	sritchie_	gah, I swapped it out for something simpler, in the end, and didn't check in the file with that function
02:10	sritchie_	in any case, I wrote something that mapped across all values in my default-config map and did the replace for each sub-map
02:11	sritchie_	not a general solution, but it got the job done
02:24	amalloy	sritchie_: after hearing you say "three config files but i don't want the user to have to deal with which is which" i would be pretty sure you were doing hadoop stuff even if i didn't already know :P
02:25	waxrose	lol
02:30	amalloy	sritchie_: have you looked at cascalog? i saw a presentation on it recently that made me weep with joy after having worked with hadoop
02:35	brehaut	cascalog looks like 6 kinds of awesome
02:38	amalloy	brehaut: it's more awesome when you're watching nathan marz hack together queries in ten seconds that turn into hadoop jobs that would take three days to write by hand
02:39	brehaut	ive gladly never had to write hadoop by hand
02:43	amalloy	brehaut: instead you...?
02:43	brehaut	dont use hadoop
02:46	amalloy	k. your "by hand" qualifier made me wonder
02:46	brehaut	oh sorry
02:49	brehaut	ive never had to process enough data that hadoop would be a good idea
02:56	amalloy	it rarely is a good idea. but sometimes it is the least bad idea
03:00	brehaut	haha
03:14	sritchie_	hey, sorry, I'm back
03:14	sritchie_	yes!
03:14	sritchie_	I'm using cascalog, it's amazing
03:14	sritchie_	I'm working on a hadoop crate for pallet, now
03:14	sritchie_	the goal is to allow cascalog queries to run on distributed clusters, all controlled by pallet
03:16	sritchie_	amalloy: haha, and yes, good guess on the config trinity
03:21	ejackson	sritchie: that would be pretty groovy
03:23	amalloy	sritchie_: ooc how hard is it to integrate with custom data types (via thrift, presumably)? eg my keys are Penguins and i have a Penguin thrift file, how hard is it to get cascalog to find me the name of the tallest penguin?
03:25	sritchie_	amalloy: you'd have to write a thrift tap for cascading, but that's about it
03:25	amalloy	oh, interesting. i think there's already one, since nmarz had his stuff defined in thrift but didn't really go into how it integrated
03:27	sritchie_	then, (?<- (stdout) [?penguin-name ?max] ((thrift-tap penguin-dir) ?penguin-name ?height) (cascalog.ops/max ?height :> ?max))
03:27	sritchie_	or, probably, (?<- (stdout) [?penguin-name ?max] ((thrift-tap penguin-dir) ?penguin) (penguin-attrs ?penguin :> ?name ?height) (cascalog.ops/max ?height :> ?max))
03:28	sritchie_	s/?penguin-name ?name
03:28	sritchie_	s/?penguin-name/?name
03:28	sritchie_	hmm, screwing that up
03:29	amalloy	the sed?
03:29	amalloy	? is a modifier
03:30	sritchie_	ah, okay
03:41	amalloy	s/\?/this
03:41	sexpbot	<amalloy> this is a modifier
03:42	amalloy	if you actually cared to make it work :P
03:43	sritchie_	s/\?penguin-name/\?name
03:43	sritchie_	it's been too long! and I think everyone here gets the idea :)
03:52	amalloy	chuckle
03:52	amalloy	the s/foo/bar form only works on your most recent mesage
03:52	amalloy	$sed -sritchie_ s/gets.*/wishes we would quit going on about penguins
03:52	sexpbot	<sritchie_> it's been too long! and I think everyone here wishes we would quit going on about penguins
03:53	sritchie_	sexpbot: took the words right out of my mouth
10:04	gfrlog	is there a summary somewhere of what's new in 1.3?
10:04	gfrlog	or does that wait till the full release?
10:05	fliebel	gfrlog: There is a changelog included in the messages about the lates alpha releases.
10:05	gfrlog	where are these messages?
10:06	fliebel	mailing list
10:06	gfrlog	okay, thanks
10:06	TimMc	fliebel: Where can I find changes from 1.1 to 1.2?
10:07	TimMc	Same place?
10:07	fliebel	Don't know, but let me know when you find it.
10:07	TimMc	OK.
10:08	TimMc	I'm a little alarmed to see breaking changes on minor version bumps... without a highly visible changelog.
10:09	gfrlog	I remember Rich mentioning the explicit :dynamic attribute on vars at Conj, but having used vars a lot more since then it suddenly seems a little more important
10:10	gfrlog	does it mean that if I'm using a library, I can't rebind any vars unless the author provides for it? or is there a way to dynamically dynamicafy a var?
10:10	fliebel	gfrlog: I think the former, but there might be some back magic to do it deep down in java land.
10:11	gfrlog	suddenly clojure is a lot less like ruby
10:11	gfrlog	probably a good thing ultimately :-/
10:12	fliebel	gfrlog: I hadn't the impression there was a lot of similarity?
10:12	gfrlog	there's not; but they at least both had the property that you could reach deep into somebody's code and change arbitrary things
10:13	gfrlog	very useful for hacking, and very scary for people who like guarantees
10:13	fliebel	gfrlog: Can you make + do * in Clojure? I mean, outside of binding, and outside of your own namespace?
10:14	gfrlog	well binding is what I was referring to
10:14	gfrlog	so it's diff from ruby in that it's thread-local and dynamically scoped rather than a global change
10:14	gfrlog	but similar capabilities and concerns
10:14	gfrlog	perhaps less concerns than the ruby case
10:15	gfrlog	in fact I think ruby is working on a new feature that would make changes like that more scoped
10:15	fliebel	gfrlog: That would be very backwards incompatible, wouldn't it?
10:16	gfrlog	fliebel: the way I stated it, yes. I doubt they're actually writing it that way
10:16	gfrlog	e.g., maybe add a new keyword for redeffing in a local context; dunno
10:16	gfrlog	if I could remember the name they gave the tactic, I could probably google it
10:17	gfrlog	I guess adding a new keyword is a bit backwards incompatible as well :)
10:17	gfrlog	is "reserved word" a legitimate definition of "keyword" or was I being confusing there?
10:18	spewn	gfrlog: Monkey patching?
10:18	gfrlog	spewn: no, that's not what I'm thinking of. I think that's just a general term for redeffing
10:18	gfrlog	ooh
10:18	gfrlog	um
10:18	gfrlog	refinements maybe?
10:19	gfrlog	$google ruby refinements
10:19	sexpbot	First out of 14100 results is: Ruby Refinements: An Overview of a New Proposed Ruby Feature
10:19	sexpbot	http://www.rubyinside.com/ruby-refinements-an-overview-of-a-new-proposed-ruby-feature-3978.html
10:19	gfrlog	ah hah
10:19	gfrlog	the example given uses a presumably new keyword "refine"
10:20	gfrlog	I would imagine it's okay to be backwards incompatible if it's aimed at Ruby 2.0
10:23	ApeShot	So what is the deal with lein and swank and emacs?
10:23	fliebel	I wonder what message passing would do to functional programming. Silly thought probably… You know, Smalltalk without the objects.
10:23	ApeShot	I just set up a new lein project, added the swank dependency in project.clj
10:24	ApeShot	and I thought that is just what I did in other projects
10:24	ApeShot	but lein swank doesn't work in the new project
10:24	gfrlog	fliebel: erlang?
10:24	ApeShot	The documentation on github says that I don't need a swank dependency
10:24	ApeShot	But it seems like I do
10:25	TimMc	lein deps?
10:25	TimMc	(on the off-chance...)
10:27	ApeShot	TimMc: just tried that
10:27	ApeShot	TimMc: Maybe there is some problem with lein deps and local libraries? It seems to hang on trying to fetch my "utils" project
10:27	ApeShot	Not hang, but die
10:28	ApeShot	TimMc: I have a separate project for utilities, which I believe i'm supposed to put a symlink to in the checkouts directory
10:28	ApeShot	TimMc: Do I also need to put it in my project.clj file?
10:29	TimMc	I believe so.
10:29	ApeShot	That seems to be the problem
10:29	TimMc	Isn't checkouts there so you can do work in two projects at once?
10:29	ApeShot	I just removed it from project.clj, ran lein deps, and it works
10:29	ApeShot	TimMc: yes
10:30	ApeShot	I rarely work on utils by itself
10:30	ApeShot	It fills up as I write other projects
10:30	TimMc	OK, then you need it in project.clj
10:30	ApeShot	If I put it in there, lein deps can't run
10:30	ApeShot	It says it can't find the project
10:30	TimMc	I guess that narrows it down.
10:31	ApeShot	However, if I take it out, then run lein deps and start up clojure, the project can use the utils
10:31	ApeShot	So clojure can find the utils
10:31	ApeShot	But then if I try to compile the project, it says it can't find them again
10:32	ApeShot	How should I specify a local project linked in checkouts in the project.clj?
10:33	ApeShot	I'm not super java ecosystem literate
10:34	TimMc	But you have this working in other projects?
10:37	ApeShot	I can develop with swank in other projects, but not compile to a single jar
10:37	ApeShot	Same thing happens, it complains it can't find the dependencies corresponding to the project in checkouts
10:38	TimMc	Ah. Can't help you there, haven't used checkout-deps myself.
10:39	ApeShot	Maybe I need to build and install the utilities before doing lein deps in a project which depends on them
10:41	ApeShot	Oh well
10:41	ApeShot	I can develop, at least
10:41	ApeShot	I'll just cross this bridge when I need to distribute
10:42	ApeShot	It seems to me that project management is the most complicated part of any project
10:42	ApeShot	which is weird
10:43	ApeShot	It seems to me that project dependency information is implicit in the source code of the project
10:43	ApeShot	Why can't compilers just figure it all out
10:43	TimMc	heh
10:43	TimMc	Versioning.
10:43	gfrlog	and write the code
10:43	ApeShot	Well, maybe the mistake is to not force programmers to indicate versioning when they include libraries
10:44	ApeShot	Each version is essentially a different library
10:44	ApeShot	You could have a central repository, or just expect libraries to be on the path somewhere
10:44	gfrlog	but that would imply you could use two versions of the same library
10:44	ApeShot	Why not?
10:45	gfrlog	cause they have identical namespaces
10:45	gfrlog	to make it work library authors would have to change their namespaces at each release
10:45	ApeShot	No, there namespaces are version qualified
10:45	gfrlog	now you have to change your code every time you upgrade your deps
10:45	TimMc	ApeShot: Then objects passed around in your code would have ambiguous semantics.
10:45	gfrlog	unless the compiler auto-aliases
10:46	gfrlog	but it can't auto-alias if you're using two versions of the same lib
10:46	TimMc	There is a package management system that allows multiversion installs, by the way.
10:46	ApeShot	How often would people realistically want to use two version of the same libary in the same context, though?
10:46	gfrlog	which you probably would be, without even knowing it
10:46	TimMc	ApeShot: Via dependencies.
10:46	gfrlog	ApeShot: not conciously
10:46	gfrlog	it'd happen indirectly
10:46	ApeShot	TimMc: well, you're sort of in the shit then either way
10:46	TimMc	Indeed.
10:47	gfrlog	no more libraries! All code reuses will henceforth be done inline.
10:47	ApeShot	The forth people have something to say about this
10:47	ApeShot	They think its best to just rewrite everything every time
10:47	gfrlog	sudo apt-get insert libxml2-dev
10:50	TimMc	ApeShot: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nix_package_manager
10:50	ApeShot	It seems to me that if two version of a library aren't semantically identical then they aren't really the same library anyway, and they should be indicated as different in the code
10:50	ApeShot	Instead of sticking one's head in the sand about it
10:50	gfrlog	TimMc: what's with the https for wikipedia?
10:50	TimMc	gfrlog: That's my default.
10:50	ApeShot	Yeah, I was thinking about the Nix package manager
10:51	TimMc	ApeShot: That's what major version bumps are for.
10:51	gfrlog	TimMc: a service they have for people concerned about snooping?
10:51	ApeShot	TimMc: well, given that we spend a lot of time thinking about lib versions, maybe the current practices could stand some revision
10:51	TimMc	gfrlog: Yeah, though I have an extension that redirects me to the HTTPS version of every site it knows about.
10:52	TimMc	ApeShot: I'm just miffed that Clojure apparently isn't following SemVer.
10:53	ApeShot	TimMc: SemVer?
10:53	TimMc	http://semver.org/
10:53	TimMc	Semantic versioning.
10:53	TimMc	Clojure should be at a 0.y.z version right now.
10:54	TimMc	Alternatively, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 should have been called 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0.
10:56	ApeShot	TimMc: I am down with SemVer, I think
11:30	TimMc	Does Leiningen allow range dependencies?
11:34	User`	hm
11:35	User`	what's currently popular way of making web apps in clojure?
11:38	fliebel	TimMc: It does
11:39	fliebel	User`: Anything that uses Ring goes. :)
11:39	joodie	I like ring (+ some compojure stuff) for web apps. I think the Ring part is the most important.
11:39	fliebel	Moustache and Enlive are cool as well
11:40	User`	I was thinking about implementing servlet through proxy using enlive for html templating
11:40	User`	then I would deploy the servlet on glassfish or something
11:40	fliebel	User`: There is a Ring wrapper for deploying as a servlet?
11:41	fliebel	(minus the question mark)
11:41	User`	well I want the container goodies too
11:41	User`	security and stuff
11:42	User`	how do you generally limit access to pages user shouldn't be accessing
11:42	fliebel	User`: Using ring midleware.
11:42	joodie	I wouldn't be too quick to throw out ring... it's probably easier to write some stuff to get at the container from within ring than having to rewrite the ring extensions.
11:44	joodie	but then, I try to stay as far away as possible from the servlet API anyway.
12:10	avdi	beating my head against (use ...) here
12:11	avdi	I think I've worked out that it takes an array, unlike what is shown in "Programming Clojure"
12:11	joodie	@avdi: in (ns (use ...)) ?
12:12	joodie	erm.. (ns (:use ..))
12:12	avdi	joodie: no ns. Just working at the REPL, trying to copy what I see in Programming Clojure
12:12	avdi	Here's my current conundrum:
12:12	avdi	user=> (use ['clojure.contrib.repl-utils])
12:12	avdi	java.lang.IllegalStateException: source already refers to: #'clojure.repl/source in namespace: user (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
12:12	avdi	user=> (use ['clojure.contrib.repl-utils :as ru])
12:12	avdi	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: ru in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:30)
12:12	avdi	user=> (use ['clojure.contrib.repl-utils :as 'ru])
12:12	avdi	java.lang.IllegalStateException: source already refers to: #'clojure.repl/source in namespace: user (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
12:12	avdi	1. Can't just use it because of some conflict
12:13	avdi	2. Can't seem to alias it using an unquoted symbol
12:13	avdi	3. Can't seem to alias it with a quoted symbol either
12:13	avdi	Very confused.
12:13	joodie	if you just want to alias it, use (require ..) instead
12:13	raek	avdi: when calling the use-function, you often quote the whole argument: (require '[clojure.contrib.repl-utils :as ru])
12:14	raek	(then you don't have to quote each symbol)
12:14	avdi	I'd really like a way to load and alias at the same time, hence use
12:15	joodie	note that (use '(bla :as bla)) will still try to import all the vars into the current namespace. so you should use require instead.
12:15	avdi	Ah. Right. Gotcha.
12:15	raek	avdi: the reason it complains about it already being there is because the user namespace has clojure.repl use'd by default in more recent versions
12:15	joodie	or (use '(bla :only [....]))
12:15	raek	(or was it leiningen that did that)
12:16	raek	don't use lists there
12:16	avdi	OK, require works better. Thanks :-)
12:16	raek	vectors are for options, lists are for shared prefixes
12:17	raek	(since having a list there doesn't work)
12:18	raek	(use 'foo.a 'foo.b 'foo.c) = (use '(foo a b c))
12:19	raek	(use 'foo.a '[foo.b :only [x]] 'foo.x) = (use '(foo a [b :only [x]] c))
12:26	angerman	anyone got a suggestion for a black-box optimization algorithm? I guess I could compute some bounds on the parameter space (1-dimensional). But apart from that I know nothing about the objective function.
12:26	angerman	It's quite likely that it's smooth but there's no derivative.
12:33	mids	angerman: can you provide a little more context?
12:35	angerman	I'm computing planar solutions of a mesh using a projective geometry approach. Fixed Points correspond to solutions. The projective transformation can be rewritten as a Eigensystem problem, in which the Eigenvectors correspond to the Fixed Points. In case of identical Eigenvalues, the Eigenvectors represent an Eigenspace of dimension 1.
12:36	angerman	In that case I try to find a good solution from the Eigenspace. The objective function is fed the solution and computes the points locations to ensure planarity. There are some conditions that classify the solution as good, eg. having as rectangular as possible patches, sub-patches behing smaller than their parent patches, ...
12:37	angerman	So I basically have (obj-fn [sol]) -> quality of solution.
12:38	angerman	I could constrain the Eigenspace to a minimum and maximum, but It'd still have a continuous range of possible solutions, from which I'd like to obtain the "best" or a "good" one.
13:17	TimMc	crickets
13:23	TimMc	angerman: How expensive is the quality function?
13:23	angerman	a few ms
13:24	angerman	just a bunch of matrix multiplications and then some convexity tests, area and circumflex calculations. Nothing that dramatic.
13:27	TimMc	And the parameter space is one-dimensional?
13:27	angerman	yes.
13:27	angerman	x + t d
13:27	TimMc	but not bounded?
13:27	angerman	t \in [A,B]
13:27	angerman	at least I think I can construct an upper and lower bound.
13:33	hv	can a macro know the name of its calling namespace?
13:34	angerman	hv: maybe ns?
13:35	raek	hv: like an ordinary function would do it (ns-name ns)
13:35	hv	will that be the calling ns or the ns the macro/function is defined in?
13:36	raek	hv: that depends on whether you put that call in the macro code, or in the code that the macro returns
13:37	raek	(defmacro foo [] (let [x (ns-name ns)] `(print ~x))) vs (defmacro foo [] `(print (ns-name ns)))
13:38	hv	raek: thanks :)
13:42	waxrose	Morning every one.
13:47	TimMc	hey, waxrose
13:50	waxrose	TimMc, howdy partner
13:51	waxrose	How's the pipeline project going?
13:51	TimMc	Well, I pushed out 0.1.0-SNAPSHOT
13:51	TimMc	It seems to work.
13:51	TimMc	I named it org.timmc/feedback
13:51	waxrose	cool, I'll check it out in a little while.
13:52	waxrose	Would you happen to know a good library to help create a graphed chart?
13:53	waxrose	I may need to do it in JavaScript till I become better in Clojure. :/
13:55	Scala	I want to use Vim for clojure development, should I use VIMClojure or slimv?
13:57	waxrose	I've heard good things about VimClojure, not sure about slimv.
13:57	Scala	waxrose: Okiedokes
13:57	waxrose	Why not use both?
13:58	Scala	Are they exclusive?
13:58	Scala	O_o
13:59	waxrose	I meant, just try both till you decided which one fits your goals best.
14:03	Scala	waxrose: Yeah I want to minimize experimentation for now since I'm just getting started with a new language though
14:08	TimMc	Scala: Very good idea.
14:09	Scala	TimMc: Do you have any other suggestions
14:09	Scala	I've never worked with anything on the JVM so I don't know if it's expected for me to know anything already
14:09	TimMc	I first tried to learn Emacs while at the same time was trying to get started on a research project in CFG parser-generators written in Scheem48 macros.
14:10	Scala	TimMc: That sounds horrible lol
14:10	TimMc	I totally failed to learn any of Emacs, Scheme48, and the internals of this parser generator. :-P
14:10	waxrose	lol
14:10	Scala	Haha yeah
14:10	TimMc	With Clojure, I just used Gedit until I was comfortable with Clojure, then switched to Emacs, which I was actually able to learn this time.
14:11	Scala	I'm already very comfortable with Vim at this point fortunately
14:11	waxrose	I picked up Emacs very fast, but I still prefer Vim's hjkl so I remapped that. Did you use this http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Vim
14:11	waxrose	?
14:11	Derander	I switch back and forth between editors every couple of years
14:11	TimMc	Scala: So just use vim and leiningen, and worry about integrated REPLs later.
14:11	Scala	leiningen?
14:11	clojurebot	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
14:11	Scala	okay
14:12	Derander	hahahaha. that was nice of clojure bot
14:12	Scala	oh ahhaa I didn't realize that wasn't you
14:12	TimMc	lemme check something:
14:12	TimMc	why?
14:12	clojurebot	why not?
14:12	TimMc	heh
14:12	waxrose	Scala, As long as you are comfortable with your editor is really all that matters.
14:12	Scala	yeah
14:13	TimMc	Emacs is ideal for s-expression languages, but is a learning project of its own.
14:13	waxrose	TimMc, So you failed to learn emacs and scheme48? lol
14:13	TimMc	yup
14:13	Scala	I was mostly just wondering if I should use something like RVM or VirtualEnv (ocming from ruby/python) when using clojure
14:13	TimMc	And the continuation-passing macro style.
14:13	waxrose	I learned both fairly fast but I am a slacker so I have been forgetting some of it.
14:14	waxrose	I've been doing too much Html 5 and JavaScript.
14:14	TimMc	Scala: I don't know what those are... I just write stuff in Emacs or Gedit or whatever and run `lein run` and `lein test` as needed.
14:14	waxrose	TimMc, RVM is for Ruby.
14:14	tomoj	Scala: lein, cake
14:15	tomoj	there isn't really an equivalent to RVM because we just started that way in the first place
14:15	TimMc	Scala: Cake is another build tool for Clojure, similar in basic usage to Leiningen.
14:15	tomoj	clojure is just a jar that gets downloaded into your project dir
14:16	Scala	Oh
14:16	TimMc	Both are super-easy to use, once you get used to how Clojure namespaces are mapped to files and directories.
14:16	Scala	Ah that's not bad, that's what python does
14:17	Scala	haha why
14:17	waxrose	I was doing Ruby for a little while and the Ruby Confs I've been to have made me dislike the snake.
14:17	Scala	Ah
14:18	TimMc	Personally, I think Python is fun.
14:18	Scala	There's too much implicitness in ruby for my liking
14:18	waxrose	Plus I don't like Zed Shaw.
14:18	amalloy	"<TimMc> Scala: Very good idea" - i intend to take this out of context and use it as blackmail
14:18	TimMc	ha!
14:18	Scala	ahha
14:19	Scala	Tim are you a scala lover now!! lols
14:19	waxrose	lol
14:19	waxrose	TimMc, Finish your pipeline project before you get blackmailed!
14:19	TimMc	waxrose: It's basically done.
14:19	Scala	I've never used scala yet, I've been debating between clojure and scala but ended up picking clojure
14:19	waxrose	amalloy, Greetings.
14:19	TimMc	I won't declare 1.0.0 until I'm sure it works for my dependant project, though.
14:20	waxrose	Well there are two more Clojure books coming out so that could be a nice way to jump into it. That's what I'm doing.
14:20	Scala	I'm mostly interested in learning a lisp
14:20	Scala	I wanna give game development a shot
14:20	amalloy	waxrose: which two?
14:21	waxrose	Well there is always ansi-common lisp, SICP.. and a few others
14:21	TimMc	Scala: If you want to see an example of Java Swing interop in Clojure, here's a Bézier curve editor I wrote for a school assignment: https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/
14:22	waxrose	amalloy, The Joy of Clojure and Clojure in Action
14:22	TimMc	Don't pattern on my code too much, though -- I'm still somewhat of a beginner.
14:22	TimMc	waxrose: Who is writing the latter?
14:22	waxrose	amalloy, I work part time at B&N so I already have them pre-ordered.
14:22	waxrose	TimMc, Amit Rathore
14:22	zoldar	,(eval `(-> {:yes {:yes 1}} ~@[:yes :yes]))
14:22	waxrose	TimMc, http://www.manning.com/rathore/
14:22	clojurebot	DENIED
14:23	zoldar	ouch
14:23	TimMc	waxrose: Yeah, but what's their real name? :-P
14:23	amalloy	waxrose: JoC isn't something i'd call "coming out soon". i read the early-access version in like august, and the ebook has been finished for months
14:23	waxrose	amalloy, I meant in physical form. :D
14:23	amalloy	TimMc: i met amit on thursday. he's probly real
14:23	zoldar	is there some cleaner way to go through nested maps when key path is given as seq ?
14:23	TimMc	amalloy: Amit is just his meatspace name.
14:24	amalloy	zoldar: {assoc,update,dissoc}-in
14:24	TimMc	I was curious if he had a True Name, aka IRC handle.
14:24	amalloy	i don't think so
14:24	zoldar	amalloy, without modifying
14:24	amalloy	get-in
14:24	amalloy	knew i'd missed on :P
14:24	amalloy	*one
14:25	zoldar	thanks! missed that one too
14:25	waxrose	The physical copy of JoC will be in my store on the 26th I believe and goes on the floor on the 28th.
14:25	paraseba	zoldar: get-in update-in
14:25	amalloy	waxrose: worried nobody will buy it so you're just throwing it on the floor?
14:26	TimMc	:-P
14:26	waxrose	amalloy, No one will, I'm more worried about people actually touching the book and tearing pages, dropping coffee on it, letting their kids spit food on it. So forth.
14:26	TimMc	grimy little paws
14:26	waxrose	gremlins >.>
14:27	waxrose	lol
14:27	waxrose	happens
14:28	waxrose	I work in the Cafe' but people will grab TONS of books, good quality/just released, and stack them high then just leave them.
14:28	waxrose	they get all torn up
14:28	waxrose	That is why I always get the books before they go on the floor.
14:30	tomoj	TimMc: pipeline?
14:31	TimMc	tomoj: https://github.com/timmc/feedback
14:31	TimMc	It's a behavioral simulator utility for sequential logic circuits.
14:32	TimMc	Very basic, you just throw in your logic blocks, their connections, and the initial values of the registers, and then you can step it forward repeatedly.
14:32	waxrose	TimMc, Are you on spring break yet?
14:32	TimMc	waxrose: Already past.
14:33	waxrose	Aww, I just started mine. I plan on reading 4 books in that time. Cancun is for losers!
14:33	waxrose	j/k :)
14:33	TimMc	Haha, I spent my whole spring break on the couch writing Clojure. :-)
14:33	TimMc	No regrets.
14:34	waxrose	lol I want to finish ansi common lisp, javascript book, reread sicp, and practical/programming clojure
14:35	waxrose	let the slackers have their fun, I'm pre-paring for Clojure Conj
14:37	TimMc	Hmm, reading http://www.infoq.com/articles/in-depth-look-clojure-collections (JoC chapter 5) I see a note that vectors are often used as stacks. Seems wrong to me. Wouldn't lists be better?
14:38	tomoj	TimMc: cool
14:39	amalloy	TimMc: depends which end you want
14:40	amalloy	and if you were using it purely 100% as a stack it wouldn't matter, but sometimes you might want to treat it as a stack most of the time, but sometimes do random peeks
14:42	amalloy	&((juxt peek pop) [1 2 3])
14:42	sexpbot	⟹ [3 [1 2]]
14:42	TimMc	Oh hey, didn't know about peek and pop.
14:43	TimMc	I think I have some stack code that needs those.
14:44	amalloy	TimMc: peek and pop are last and butlast, except that they're not crazy-slow and only work on vectors
14:44	amalloy	or...##(peek '(1 2 3))
14:44	sexpbot	⟹ 1
14:44	amalloy	okay they work on whichever end is most convenient. nice
14:45	TimMc	There's no push. :-(
14:45	amalloy	TimMc: conj
14:45	TimMc	I mean, conj works, but...
14:45	amalloy	TimMc: if you want some help i can write (def push conj) for you
14:47	raek	speaking about stacks... is there any fn for getting a seq of a stack in "pop order"?
14:47	amalloy	raek: rseq?
14:48	amalloy	$findfn [1 2 3 4] [4 3 2 1]
14:48	sexpbot	[clojure.core/rseq clojure.core/reverse]
14:48	TimMc	amalloy: But it's not symmetrical for lists.
14:48	raek	I was thinking about one that is data structure independent
14:48	amalloy	ah, i see
14:49	amalloy	best you can do is probably a custom multimethod
14:50	raek	I was thinking 'bout (defn stack-seq [coll] (lazy-seq (when (seq coll) (cons (peek coll) (stack-seq (pop coll))))))
14:51	raek	would be nice to have something like iterate, but with a predicate for when to stop
14:53	amalloy	raek: isn't that just (take-while (complement pred) (iterate f n))?
14:54	tsdh	Hi. Is there a way to make private functions accessible in the test namespace?
14:55	raek	ok, I left out an important detail. I don't want the pred to look at a value produced by iterate, I want iterate to use it do determine if there are any more values
14:56	amalloy	raek: that sounds more like unfold
14:57	amalloy	tsdh: a good wall hack is to access the var objects directly: (#'myns/private-fn args)
14:57	raek	amalloy: what does unfold do?
14:57	amalloy	raek: https://gist.github.com/805583
14:57	tsdh	amalloy: Ah, great
14:58	raek	amalloy: yes. that's exactly it.
14:58	raek	which languages does it exist in? haskell?
14:58	amalloy	yeah
14:58	amalloy	and others, presumably
14:58	TimMc	tsdh: There's a snippet of code that will refer all private vars...
14:59	TimMc	tsdh: https://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/66f15396411e49e9
15:00	amalloy	raek: and apparently F# has it
15:01	TimMc	amalloy: Yay! https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/blob/master/src/timmcHW3/history.clj#L58
15:01	amalloy	heh
15:02	tsdh	TimMc: Oh, that's nice.
15:02	amalloy	oh noes, your undo buffer is linear, not a tree
15:02	TimMc	amalloy: Just wait until my program's state history is backed by git. :-P
15:02	raek	(def stack-seq (partial unfold (juxt peek pop) empty?))
15:03	amalloy	oh nice
15:04	raek	I wonder how a tree-based (or DAG-based?) history navigation would look like in a web browser
15:04	amalloy	$google time travel with vim
15:04	sexpbot	First out of 39300 results is: qBang Solutions Blog - Travel Back Vim Time
15:04	sexpbot	http://blog.qbangsolutions.com/travel-back-vim-time/
15:04	amalloy	man. google never finds what i want
15:04	raek	I mean, it makes sense that if you press the back button and then follow some links, you get a branch in the history tree
15:06	amalloy	raek: repurpose the dropdown-ish thing on the Forward button to "slide" sideways in the tree
15:07	raek	amalloy: yeah, that'd be cool.
15:07	raek	I wonder what "the dropdown-ish thing" should look like
15:07	amalloy	what do you mean?
15:08	raek	you were thinking about a menu where each item represents a branch?
15:08	amalloy	yeah
15:08	amalloy	it's already the case that you get a dropdown when you rightclick the forward button
15:09	amalloy	the entries in it are just fairly useless
15:09	raek	ah, so instead of squeezing those "old" entries into each item, you simply have something else there...
15:09	amalloy	right
15:09	TimMc	The back button dropdown (as it currenty stands) is quite useful for badly-behaved web pages.
15:10	amalloy	TimMc: indeed
15:10	amalloy	but not the forward dropdown
15:10	raek	I'm currently implementing a client for the Gopher protocol
15:10	TimMc	However, the browser should handle that by not allowing redirects until after a timeout from hitting the back button.
15:10	raek	maybe I could experiment with this in that project
15:10	raek	TimMc: agreed
15:11	TimMc	I guess you don't have that problem in Gopher.
15:12	raek	exactly :)
15:12	TimMc	raek: Alt-tab provides an interesting template, where holding down Alt gives you a list of windows to scroll through with tab.
15:13	TimMc	Imagine Alt+[up,down,left,right] to navigate a horizontal tree. (grows to the right)
15:13	amalloy	TimMc: sounds good to me
15:13	amalloy	alt+left/right already do that
15:14	TimMc	Now, there might be some dissonance with the tree-structured directories the user is browsing... hmm.
15:14	amalloy	wut?
15:15	TimMc	Doesn't Gopher provide a tree-structured view?
15:15	raek	conventionally, yes
15:15	raek	but each directory item is allowed to point to any other directory
15:16	TimMc	OK, that's what I thought.
15:16	TimMc	It has symlinks. :-)
15:16	raek	but the directories of a gopher server are most often organized in a hierarchial manner
15:16	amalloy	oh we're talking about gopher now. i don't know anything about gopher :P
15:16	raek	it's a very small protocol
15:17	ekoontz	sigh.. (difference '(a b) '(b c))
15:17	raek	after reading the wikipedia article, you know enough to implement it
15:17	ekoontz	how do i do it in clojure?
15:18	TimMc	,(difference (set '(a b)) (set '(b c)))
15:18	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: difference in this context
15:18	TimMc	,(clojure.set/difference (set '(a b)) (set '(b c)))
15:18	clojurebot	#{a}
15:18	ekoontz	Thanks a ton TimMc :)
15:18	TimMc	ekoontz: Oh, and '#{a b c}
15:18	ekoontz	i love the clojurebot too
15:18	TimMc	,#{'a 1 'c}
15:18	ekoontz	didn't know about that
15:18	clojurebot	#{1 a c}
15:18	ekoontz	,(list 4 5 6)
15:18	clojurebot	(4 5 6)
15:19	ekoontz	,(clojure.set/difference (set '(a b)) (set '(b c)))
15:19	clojurebot	#{a}
15:19	Geisteskrankh	,+
15:19	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@15ee9d9>
15:20	TimMc	ekoontz: Just make sure you (:require ...) or (:use ...) clojure.set in your code -- it is available by default only in some environments.
15:20	ekoontz	,(clojure.set/difference '#(a b) (set '(b c)))
15:20	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentSet
15:20	TimMc	ekoontz: Braces, not parens.
15:20	amalloy	ekoontz: #{a b}, not #(a b)
15:20	ekoontz	thanks TimMc yeah
15:20	ekoontz	,(clojure.set/difference '#{a b} (set '(b c)))
15:20	clojurebot	#{a}
15:20	ekoontz	cool
15:21	TimMc	ekoontz: I also highly recommend the ClojureDocs site: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.set/difference
15:22	ekoontz	thanks TimMc; good reference, better than what i was using (google) :)
15:22	amalloy	there's also sexpbot's findfn:
15:22	amalloy	$findfn '#{a b} '#{b c} '#{a}
15:22	sexpbot	[clojure.set/difference]
15:22	TimMc	The search function has some trouble with hyphens, but other than that it it great.
15:23	amalloy	not so useful here cause what you didn't know about was sets, but for later
15:23	TimMc	s/it it/it is/
15:24	ekoontz	yeah clojure is a little more type-strict than common lisp
15:24	ekoontz	so that takes some getting used to
15:25	TimMc	ekoontz: WHen you work in the realm of sequences and collections, it usually doesn't matter, though.
15:25	TimMc	You only have to drop down to set for set operations, for instance.
15:25	amalloy	ekoontz: it's not just strictness, fortunately. if you tell clojure something is a set rather than a list, it does all kinds of handy things for you
15:26	ekoontz	i like the key value pairs..
15:26	ekoontz	{:foo 42 :bar 99}
15:26	amalloy	&(let [s #{1 2 4 8}] (filter s (range 10)))
15:26	sexpbot	⟹ (1 2 4 8)
15:56	amalloy	seriously? firefox has a history-tree extension, but i can't find one for chrome
15:56	waxrose	lol
15:56	waxrose	Did you check their app mall?
15:57	amalloy	maybe? i haven't been using chrome for long
15:57	waxrose	Btw, Fx 4 beta 13 pre is great.
15:57	waxrose	Much smaller interface.
15:58	waxrose	amalloy, https://chrome.google.com/webstore?hl=en-US ?
15:59	amalloy	well, i found an Asteroids extension. i guess that's cool
16:00	waxrose	The beta Fx looks similiar to chromium but I think if you compile it, it's so much quicker.
16:00	User`	hm how are protocols invoked
16:01	amalloy	User`: like normal functions
16:02	raek	User`: how you invoke its methods, or how they are implemented?
16:02	User`	I mean
16:02	User`	if I have protocol that have fn called foo
16:02	User`	and then call (foo x)
16:03	User`	how is this different than a normal fn
16:03	User`	I don't understand the concept
16:04	raek	User`: the protocoll does not specify what code gets executed when you call it
16:04	User`	I know
16:05	User`	but if I implement a protocol
16:05	User`	how is that different from writing those same fns without being a part of protocol implementation
16:06	User`	they do the same thing
16:06	amalloy	User`: it's a lot like interfaces in java
16:06	raek	the code that uses the protocol does not have to know what implementation is used
16:08	raek	so, lets assume the clojure stack functions are protocol functions: (defprotocol Stack (conj [coll value]) (peek [coll]) (pop [coll]))
16:08	joodie	User`: protocols can have multiple implementations, and which implementation is called depends on the arguments provided to the call.
16:08	waxrose	amalloy, I don't know what type of system you are running but I literally just pushed this for Fx just in case you get annoyed with Chrome. https://github.com/waxrosecabal/install_scripts/blob/master/build_fx.sh
16:08	User`	ok, how that different from multimethod that dispatches on class of first parameter
16:09	amalloy	User`: it's conceptually the same
16:09	amalloy	but jvm can optimize protocols better
16:09	User`	so if I define a protocol that has a fn with same name as existing fn what happens?
16:10	raek	if the fn is in your namespace, it will be overwritten
16:10	amalloy	User`: namespacing takes care of it
16:10	raek	if the fn is some unrelated namespace, then there is no collision
16:11	User`	so if I make protocol with fn named first then with call (first x) I dispatch on the class of x
16:11	raek	if the fn is in some namespace that you have use'd, then you get a warning and the name will from there on point to your protocol function
16:11	raek	User`: yes
16:11	User`	what happens when nothing implements a protocol for that type
16:11	raek	you get an exception
16:12	raek	stuart halloway explains protocols and how they differ from multimethods in this video: http://vimeo.com/11236603
16:12	raek	also, protocols group functions together.
16:12	User`	how does clojure find all implementations floating around? by normal symbol lookup in the current context?
16:13	raek	the code that implements it has to use the protocol var (and changes something in it, iirc)
16:13	raek	,(do (defprotocol P) P)
16:13	clojurebot	DENIED
16:13	raek	&(do (defprotocol P) P)
16:13	sexpbot	⟹ {:on-interface sandbox7565.P, :on sandbox7565.P, :sigs {}, :var #'sandbox7565/P, :method-map {}, :method-builders {}}
16:13	User`	ok, what does reify do then?
16:14	raek	it's like a one-off deftype
16:14	raek	it creates an object that implements the given protcolols with the given method implementations
16:14	raek	much like 'proxy' does for java interfaces
16:14	joodie	ah, that's good to know. haven't spend enough time looking through the protocol docs.
16:15	User`	so reify returned object also has data fields or something?
16:16	raek	it can close over local variables, but does not have explicit fields, like deftype and defrecord
16:16	joodie	protocols only specify methods, AFAIK. if you want to store date, use closures
16:16	joodie	from the docs @ http://clojure.org/protocols:
16:16	joodie	(foo
16:16	joodie	(let [x 42]
16:16	joodie	(reify P
16:16	joodie	(foo [this] 17)
16:16	joodie	(bar-me [this] x)
16:16	joodie	(bar-me [this y] x))))
16:17	raek	(defprotocol Pair (the-one [x]) (the-other [x])) (let [x 1, y 2] (reify Pair (the-one [_] x) (the-other [_] y)))
16:18	User`	but this object created by reify, I can't see what's its dispatch
16:19	User`	when does a call to the-one dispatch to this implementation, returned by reify
16:19	raek	it's an object of a new unique type
16:20	raek	User`: (def p (reify Pair ...)) HERE --> (the-one p)
16:20	User`	so unlike other protocol implementations, this can pretty much never be a target for dispatch unless you are calling the fn on this exact object
16:21	raek	yes, it's an implementation unique to that object
16:21	joodie	User`: but that's what dispatch IS. !?
16:21	User`	:D
16:22	User`	I get it, it's basically an anonymous interface implementation
16:22	raek	cgrand uses protocols very beautifully: http://vrac.cgrand.net/DSL.pdf
16:22	raek	User`: exactly
16:23	angerman	so {:keys […], :or {…}} does not make the arity 0?
16:26	angerman	ok, I failed to get this right. sorry
16:44	zoldar	is there a way to make "(read)" act as expected in SLIME?
17:11	Somelauw	clojurebot (Math/min 5 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
17:11	Somelauw	Or what is the bot called again?
17:12	zoldar	,(Math/min 5 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
17:12	raek	Somelauw: clojurebot evals utterances beginning with a comma
17:12	amalloy	Somelauw: prefix your command with , or &
17:12	raek	and sexpbot those with a &
17:12	Somelauw	, (Math/min 5 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
17:12	Somelauw	clojurebot, (Math/min 5 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
17:12	amalloy	clojurebot isn't here now apparently
17:12	Somelauw	& (Math/min 5 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
17:12	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: min
17:12	Somelauw	Yes, that was the thing that confused. Why that error?
17:12	Somelauw	Since
17:13	Somelauw	& (Math/min 5 6)
17:13	sexpbot	⟹ 5
17:13	Somelauw	So what is wrong with infinity?
17:13	amalloy	Somelauw: nothing is, you're just mixing types
17:13	Somelauw	& (Math/min 5.0 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
17:13	sexpbot	⟹ 5.0
17:14	Somelauw	I thought java was able to implicitely cast ints to floats.
17:15	Somelauw	& (Math/min 3.5 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
17:15	sexpbot	⟹ 3.5
17:16	joodie	& (Math/min 1 1.5)
17:16	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: min
17:16	amalloy	does paredit have a command to turn a (f b c) into (f a b c)?
17:20	joodie	amalloy: don't think so. it's quite a specific modification
17:21	amalloy	joodie: it seems like it would be useful more often than the current backwards-slurp, which gives you (a f b c)
17:21	amalloy	since f is already "known" to be a function
17:21	joodie	amalloy: hmmm... maybe
17:21	joodie	I tend to use M-s a lot as it is.
17:22	joodie	and I'd rather have a command to turn (a (b c d)) into (a c d)
17:22	amalloy	not sure how M-s is useful in this context
17:22	amalloy	joodie: you already have that command
17:23	amalloy	put point before c, and M-<UP>
17:23	joodie	oooh
17:23	joodie	thanks
17:24	amalloy	welcome
17:26	joodie	doesn't emacs have some sort of "swap words" command that might work correctly in lisp modes?
17:26	joodie	then you could just slurp in the a and then swap f and a
17:27	amalloy	joodie: yeah, #emacs just came up with that as well
17:27	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
17:28	clojurebot	PONG!
17:28	hiredman	testing indexing
17:28	joodie	well, maybe you'll just have to define you own keybinding to do both commands. :)
17:28	hiredman	~search for testing
17:28	clojurebot	#<HttpHostConnectException org.apache.http.conn.HttpHostConnectException: Connection to http://localhost:9200 refused>
17:28	joodie	it's emacs, you
17:28	joodie	're SUPPOSED to make it incomprehensible to other users :)
17:30	amalloy	joodie: i'll just rebind C-M-<LEFT> and damn anyone who expects it to do this crazy thing it currently does
17:37	Somelauw	Is emacs the most popular editor for clojure?
17:37	Somelauw	Since it seems to be very popular for lisplike languages for some reason.
17:38	joodie	dunno if it's the most popular, but emacs traditionally has very good lisp integration. SLIME is pretty good (if you get it configured just right)
17:39	Chousuke	it's also written in a dialect of lisp, which probably has something to do with its popularity in lisp circles.
17:39	joodie	and of course, being able to extend the editor in a lisp helps :)
17:39	raek	it has a tradition of interactive development
17:39	hiredman	~search for indexing
17:39	clojurebot	<#clojurebot:hiredman> indexing test
17:39	User`	I develop in emacs because that's what clojurebox uses
17:39	User`	I tried eclipse plugins
17:39	hiredman	~search for emacs
17:39	clojurebot	<#clojure:User`> I develop in emacs because that's what clojurebox uses
17:39	clojurebot	<#clojure:joodie> dunno if it's the most popular, but emacs traditionally has very good lisp integration. SLIME is pretty good (if you get it configured just right)
17:39	User`	but they didn't work at all
17:40	User`	no autocomplete
17:40	waxrose	I think it keeps you thinking about lisp when you can extend lisp emacs.
17:40	waxrose	in*
17:41	waxrose	instead of your mind wandering off to some thing else
17:41	joodie	I use emacs mostly because I use it for everything else too. it's very versatile and it doesn't give you a load of gui crap to distract you.
17:41	waxrose	I build Emacs from source every night. :/
17:41	raek	does anyone know how to make slime print the evaluated result in the repl instead of the minibuffer when pressing C-M-x?
17:43	raek	anyway, interactive development in Clojure was the reason I started to use emacs :)
17:43	raek	now I use it for everything
17:44	hiredman	so just an fyi clojurebot is indexing #clojure now
17:44	raek	well, not like RMS
17:44	amalloy	Somelauw: emacs is built in lisp, for lisp. the language integration is incredible
17:44	amalloy	not having to rely on the mouse is pretty awesome too once you get the hang of it
17:45	waxrose	raek, I started using Emacs mostly out of spite for my UNIX 101 teacher who was a vim fan boy.
17:45	amalloy	haha
17:45	Somelauw	I can already live without mouse.
17:45	joodie	raek: you can redefine the slime-message function to print somewhere else.
17:45	Somelauw	Since I am a vim user.
17:46	waxrose	Install StumpWm then you have a Hands free, lisp built window manager.
17:46	chouser	hiredman: indexing?
17:46	hiredman	writes to elasticsearch
17:46	joodie	but it would take a bit more than that to get it to work right
17:46	amalloy	my first CS teacher introduced us to a bit of unix while he was teaching java. "And for editing text files there's VIM. VIM is an acronym: it stands for "sucks""
17:46	Somelauw	But since few lisp programmers seem to use vim, I was wondering if emacs might be better for that specific language.
17:46	waxrose	amalloy, hahahahahahahahahhaha!
17:47	hiredman	~search for sender:chouser
17:47	clojurebot	<#clojure:chouser> hiredman: indexing?
17:47	waxrose	Somelauw, Use what you feel most comfortable with.
17:47	amalloy	hiredman: looks nice
17:48	amalloy	i imagine pretty soon the indexes will be getting large: i assume you have some scheme to make him output only the N "best" matches?
17:48	joodie	waxrose: for tabbed WMs, I prefer i3 at the moment.
17:48	hiredman	results are sorted by timestamp descending, and you an page through them with something like [n] where n is the page number, four results per page
17:48	hiredman	you can page
17:49	waxrose	joodie, I'm actually using dwm now since StumpWm annoys me too much.
17:49	waxrose	Would be nice to have a clojure wm.
17:49	Somelauw	Is StumpWm the same as Awesome but then with lisp?
17:49	hiredman	would need a java xlib binding
17:49	waxrose	Somelauw, It's the same as Ratpoison built in lisp.
17:51	joodie	I really don't care about hacking wms, I just run emacs on one screen and the rest on the other. All I need is multi-screen support and as much keyboard actions as possible.
17:51	joodie	so i3 is perfect for me.
17:52	Somelauw	I would think that a webbrowser that completely ignores the mouse you probably can't even use firefox or openoffice.
17:52	Somelauw	I would think that a window manager that completely ignores the mouse you probably can't even use firefox or openoffice.
17:52	waxrose	I get easily distracted so I try to keep every thing oriented in the same environment.
17:52	amalloy	Somelauw: i went without a mouse for a month recently
17:53	amalloy	it's not that hard
17:53	joodie	I should try that
17:53	waxrose	It doesn't ignore the mouse, you can use it if you want.
17:53	amalloy	i set up the numpad to emulate the mouse for the really mouse-only programs, but firefox is not one of the ones that needed it
17:53	Somelauw	I like to work without touching the mouse but my webbrowser frequently requires me to.
17:54	joodie	my main "keep everything the consistent" action was to configure alt/meta/super to work the same on my macbook and my linux desktop
17:54	hiredman	a few guys at work use http://conkeror.org/
17:54	amalloy	Somelauw: tab+enter to click on links. for pages with too many links to conveniently tab through, C-f <link text> ESC RET
17:54	waxrose	That is the benefit of Tiling Window Manager....... you can have emacs and firefox next to each other and you can use your keyboard to switch between the two.
17:55	waxrose	very fast
17:56	waxrose	joodie, That looks like a vim keyboard.
17:56	joodie	it works amazingly well with emacs too :)
17:56	amalloy	joodie: blurg. i'm willing to accept spending some horizontal space to make it easy to type numbers
17:56	joodie	I just don't want to have to reach for a mouse when I need one
17:57	joodie	and number typing on the top row is easily learned
17:57	zoldar	joodie, nice - I own a filco tenkeyless, but I'm not that great at touch typing to go with blanks ;)
17:58	joodie	zoldar, ooh good one. I've been meaning to try those.
17:58	amalloy	joodie: i used the top row for a long time, and i can do it if i have to, but to type longish numbers i'd rather not
17:58	joodie	I've been touch typing for ages now. years ago some coworker swapped all the keys on my work machine. I didn't even notice it.
17:59	amalloy	yeah, as long as you have JF indexed you're all set. my keyboardis under the desk; i can't even see the keys
18:01	fbru02	,(doc letfn)
18:01	clojurebot	"([fnspecs & body]); Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the functions, as well as the body. fnspec ==> (fname [params] exprs) or (fname ([params] exprs)+)"
18:06	rata_	does anyone know about something like regex for sequences in general? something like "I want everything in this seq from the beginning until I find a @ symbol/string followed by two numbers"
18:06	technomancy	hiredman: ISTR finding a java xlib binding once upon a time
18:06	amalloy	rata_: fnparse
18:06	technomancy	I'm not patient enough to write a WM though
18:07	rata_	amalloy: mmm you're right
18:08	rata_	didn't think about it
18:10	amalloy	(rep* (not-followed-by (lit-conc-seq ['@])) anything) looks like a good start
18:33	User`	,(doc rep*)
18:33	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:33	amalloy	User`: fnparse
18:36	User`	rata_: how about (take-while (fn [x] (not (re-find #"@\d\d" x))) sequenc)
18:36	clojurebot	2009:Jan:29:16:03:17 <hiredman> I call Xiphojura
18:36	rata_	User`: that's for strings, not seqs
18:37	User`	I thought you wanted to take all elements until you find a certain string
18:38	amalloy	User`: rata_ is trying to generalize regexps to non-strings
18:38	amalloy	by the way, cgrand also has a neat regex library, i think
18:39	rata_	yes, but it compiles to j.l.Regex
18:39	amalloy	sure
18:39	amalloy	not what you're looking for, but possibly relevant
18:40	rata_	amalloy: fnparse is probably what I want, but I'll think first of a simpler approach
18:40	User`	,(doc fnparse)
18:40	clojurebot	Huh?
18:40	amalloy	$google fnparse
18:40	sexpbot	First out of 247 results is: joshua-choi/fnparse - GitHub
18:40	sexpbot	https://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse
18:42	User`	interesting
18:43	amalloy	User`: i recently used fnparse for the first time: you can see how easy it is at https://github.com/amalloy/claudius/blob/master/src/claudius/core.clj
18:47	amalloy	a few data pairs and five lines of parser logic, and it can read roman numerals
18:52	User`	hm interesting
18:52	User`	say...why do you have tokens (x, m etc) as quoted symbols instead of just putting them in " " ?
18:53	joodie	User`: in clojure in general?
18:54	joodie	because strings are just lists of characters, while symbols and lists etc are objects in their own right
18:54	joodie	it's tied to the read/eval stage of interpretation/compilation.
18:55	amalloy	joodie: i think he means my code
18:55	amalloy	User`: i just didn't want to type "" over and over
18:55	amalloy	so i put them in a quoted list and then mapped (str) over them to turn them into strings
18:56	User`	ah convenience then
18:56	amalloy	yeah
18:56	amalloy	plus it arguably makes the pair-definitions more readable
18:57	User`	that's cool... I'll have to really get into this to make a parser for something like a special configuration files
18:57	amalloy	User`: better still, don't use special configuration files :)
18:57	Somelauw	maybe make clojure compile to native machinecode
18:58	amalloy	just make your configuration file a .clj file you can read or load, and tada, you have a map
18:58	hiredman	joodie: Strings are not just lists of characters
18:59	hiredman	,(->> (class "foo") .getMethods (map #(.getName %)))
18:59	clojurebot	("hashCode" "compareTo" "compareTo" "indexOf" "indexOf" "indexOf" "indexOf" "equals" "toString" "length" ...)
19:00	joodie	yeah sure.
19:00	joodie	clojure strings are java strings, with random access reads.
19:00	hiredman	joodie: and what you said is bogus anyway "because strings are just lists of characters" but then "symbols and lists are objects in their own right"
19:01	hiredman	if a list is an object, and an object is good, a list of charactes is no less of an object and no less good
19:02	joodie	I was talking about the reader. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clearer, but there's only so many words for sequences and structures.
19:03	Somelauw	Maybe you can create java from clojure and use gnu to compile the java to machine code.
19:03	hiredman	the reads strings as Strings, infact it reads them using a StringBuilder
19:03	joodie	IOW, the difference between "(a b c)" and '(a b c)
19:03	Somelauw	string and quoted list
19:03	amalloy	Somelauw: gcj is woefully useless
19:05	joodie	And I didn't want to imply that string are somehow worse than other data types. Just that in lisps, code is not usually thought of as text.
19:11	User`	people told me to use Ring for webapps instead of servlets...then why does ring have servlet module?
19:11	Somelauw	why is it useless
19:11	joodie	User`: because then you can use ring in a standard java web server.
19:12	User`	I thought Ring WAS the server
19:12	brehaut	User`: ring is firstly an interface
19:12	joodie	ring is not a server. it's an abstraction on http request/response
19:12	brehaut	User`: secondly a set of adapters to existing servers
19:13	brehaut	and thirdly a set of standard tools for working with http and surrounding ecosystem
19:13	User`	but according to tutorials it seems that it works just fine in combination with jetty even without this servlet package
19:14	joodie	basically, a ring-based system should be portable to most web servers - even ones that don't implement the servlet API.
19:15	joodie	see ring-jetty-adapter vs ring-servlet
19:15	brehaut	User`: it does
19:15	User`	so the servlet package is for Ring to appear as servlet to webserver, not for my app to be a servlet
19:15	brehaut	User`: but if you want to AOT compile a ring app to be hosted as a WAR in a servlet container
19:16	User`	do I have to do any gen-class stuff in my own code to have it AOT compile
19:16	User`	being able to make a WAR appeals to me tremendously
19:16	brehaut	i think how it is AOT compiled varies on your project/build tool
19:18	User`	what I'm asking in essence is: do I have to gen-class which extends Servlet or does the ring do that
19:18	brehaut	i am quite content with an embeded jetty so ive never gone looking
19:18	User`	ok
19:18	technomancy	make love, not war.
19:18	joodie	same here.
19:18	User`	war has the advantage that you can use paid hosting and send them war updates
19:19	joodie	but I think that ring-servlet takes care of most of the glue.
19:19	User`	i'm using leiningen for build tool and to do any AOT
19:19	TimMc	technomancy: Do you suppose there's a WAR-file generator called "love"? Or perhaps instead a competing format?
19:19	User`	maybe "peace"
19:20	User`	War and Peace by Dostojevski :P
19:20	User`	or did I screw that one up :D
19:20	brehaut	User`: by digging through https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj briefly, i dont believe the servlet util does any AOT itself; it uses a proxy to create an HttpServlet instance
19:21	User`	crap, so AOT doesn't work at all?
19:21	technomancy	TimMc: there better be
19:21	brehaut	User`: i didnt say that, only that the servlet utils dont do any themselves
19:22	User`	WAR will require that there is some kind of class that extends servlet in there also with appropriate web.xml deployment descriptor
19:22	brehaut	User`: go nuts: https://github.com/alienscience/leiningen-war
19:23	User`	:D I'm not that skilled yet, to be writing my own libraries
19:24	brehaut	my bad, that link itself suggests https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring
19:25	TimMc	User`: Writing what libraries?
19:25	ieure	User`, brehaut, Having _just_ gone through both lein-war and lein-ring, use lein-ring.
19:26	ieure	It rules. Lein-war brings nothing to the table.
19:26	brehaut	User`: there is an associated blog http://weavejester.com/getting-started-with-lein-ring
19:26	ieure	Lein-ring made ma a WAR file that I successfully deployed to EC2 with Elastic Beanstalk. I came in my pants a little.
19:26	brehaut	i didnt need to know that
19:27	User`	lein-ring dev-dep just downloaded whole Ring
19:27	ieure	I also came in brehaut’s pants.
19:27	User`	do I have to put it under dependecies of a project too?
19:27	ieure	User`, No.
19:27	User`	or at least the stuff it downloads?
19:27	User`	the Ring stuff?
19:27	ieure	No.
19:28	brehaut	User`: weavejesters tutorial has ring/ring-core in deps and lein-ring in dev-deps
19:28	ieure	I had [ring/ring-jetty-adapter "0.3.5"] in the main deps, but I think that Compojure pulls all that stuff in.
19:28	User`	I currently have some parts of ring in my deps, do I need that?
19:28	brehaut	User`: I would think you do
19:29	User`	I am asking that because if lein-ring packs the war from its Ring libs it downloaded under development deps folder, then I don't need them under dependencies?
19:29	User`	Maybe?
19:30	TimMc	ieure: I remembered having pointed someone towards leiningen-war the other day, so I grepped my logs to see who I should poke about lein-ring... and it was you!
19:30	brehaut	technomancy can probably clarify but you dev dependancies dont get packed into your .?ar files
19:30	User`	I know they usually don't
19:30	brehaut	they only exist in your dev enviroment
19:30	ieure	TimMc, Indeed. I was much more impressed with lein-ring, which worked out of the box, first time, no extra work necessary.
19:30	User`	but if you have a special lein job, it's probably possible
19:30	ieure	It also has a dev server which is very slick.
19:31	TimMc	ieure: Ah, nice.
19:31	ieure	Not having attempted to hack on Clojure webapps in a while, I’m _really_ pleased with how far things have come.
19:32	User`	hm....
19:33	User`	why am I having multiple versions of some jars in my dev lib folder?
19:33	User`	I have clojure 1.1 and clojure 1.2
19:33	seancorfield	do: lein clean, deps
19:33	seancorfield	see what's left after that
19:34	User`	same
19:34	User`	no change
19:34	seancorfield	maybe stuff you're depending on has different clojure dependencies?
19:34	User`	possibly
19:36	User`	http://pastebin.com/AKmvJyvv
19:37	User`	here's my configuration and contents of my dev libs folder
19:37	brehaut	User`: enlive is at 1.0.0 now
19:38	User`	how do I update that
19:38	brehaut	drop -SNAPSHOT from the version string in your project.clj
19:38	brehaut	and then lein deps
19:38	brehaut	(although any lein command mgiht trigger it if its sees it has changed
19:40	User`	but now I have 2 jars lol
19:40	wtetzner	lein clean; lein deps
19:41	User`	lein clean does nothing it seems
19:41	User`	never deletes anything
19:41	User`	screw it I'll delete the folders
19:42	wtetzner	rm -rf lib; lein deps
19:42	seancorfield	lein clean always clears my lib folder... wonder why it doesn't do it for you?
19:42	User`	no idea
19:43	User`	but deleting the folder then rerunning deps worked
19:43	brehaut	lein version ?
19:43	User`	it didn't even download the jars
19:43	User`	I wonder where it got them lol
19:43	brehaut	if they are in your ~/.m2 cache it wont
19:43	wtetzner	~/.m2/repository
19:43	clojurebot	excusez-moi
19:43	seancorfield	hmm, you know, now i just tried lein clean on a project, it didn't empty lib
19:44	brehaut	maybe tis just a placebo command now
19:44	danieljomphe	I don't think clean would do that, although it would definitely delete compiled files (target)
19:44	seancorfield	it does remove the classes folder tho'
19:44	User`	right :)
19:45	seancorfield	so... rm -rf lib; lein deps :)
19:45	danieljomphe	sometimes it's useful to rm -rf the libs to get rid of multiple old versions of a lib
19:47	danieljomphe	oh, I believe I was wrong; I just tried and it appears lib is deleted
19:52	danieljomphe	so if it's not deleted for you, it may be that you have something open that locks one of the files in lib?
19:54	TimMc	On Linux, that shouldn't result in the file still being accessible -- it should appear to be deleted.
19:57	technomancy	deps deletes the jars from lib before proceeding, so having clean do it is redundant
19:59	danieljomphe	oh that's right, I was not running 'lein clean' to test re: this discussion, I was erroneously running 'lein deps'! Looks like I need some rest :)
21:34	brundle	newbie question http://pastebin.com/7Fj9dY6y
21:36	brundle	specifically I want to know if I can avoid the flatten->partition steps
21:38	zakwilson	How does the overhead on Clojure maps compare to say... Java hashtables?
21:38	zakwilson	(size, not speed, to clarify)
21:53	ysph	i'm thinking of writing a dsl for parsing binary data formats, i'm unsure that what i'm doing is worthwhile, does this look insane? https://gist.github.com/867824
21:53	tomoj	ysph: seen gloss yet?
21:53	ysph	no
21:54	tomoj	https://github.com/ztellman/gloss not sure if it will match your needs
21:54	ysph	but i'm glad that you've pointed it out to me
21:54	tomoj	documentation is pretty bare still it seems
21:54	tomoj	oh, the introduction in the wiki isn't bad
21:55	Chousuke	ysph: in general I think you should avoid using lists in DSLs unless the expressions actually get evaluated as code.
21:55	ysph	the let and the for in that example would be evaluated
21:56	Chousuke	I mean the (5 bits) thing
21:56	ysph	ah, good point
21:56	tomoj	brundle: one way is (mapcat (juxt identity reverse) x)
21:56	ysph	i was thinking of that as a shortcut for (repeat 5 bits)
21:57	Chousuke	you could just make a bits function
21:57	Chousuke	and have (bits 5)
21:57	ysph	probably
21:57	Chousuke	it's backwards but that's not too bad
21:57	ysph	anyhow, i'll check out gloss
21:57	ysph	thanks for the feedback
21:57	tomoj	gloss won't like 5 bits unless there are 3 after it
21:58	tomoj	bytes can be split but not across frames afaik
21:58	ysph	i do need something that can handle arbitrary splits
21:58	tomoj	i.e. you can't read 5 bits and then start reading the rest as if they were bytes
21:59	ysph	in this case, what's read for the rest is determined by the value contained within the first five bits
21:59	tomoj	I _think_ trying to do that with gloss will probably be harder than writing your own
22:00	ysph	hence the (:nbits bits), to indicate substituting :nbits with the value previously read
22:04	tomoj	brundle: also (interleave x (map reverse x))
22:05	brundle	tomoj - thank you very much
22:25	nickik	How can it be that when I use lein run it takes about 200ms but when I use an uberjar it takes 750ms?
22:26	tomoj	neat key?
22:27	nickik	?
22:27	tomoj	nevermind
22:27	tomoj	your nick happens to look like it means something
22:28	tomoj	with lein run, maybe it only loads the jars when needed? while with the uberjar, it has to load everything at startup? guessing.
22:29	nickik	It looks like my name is nick and the first time I had to choise a nickname "nick" was already used I just an other "ik"
22:30	nickik	tomoj, I only use clojure nothing else in this example.
22:30	tomoj	no contrib? no idea then.
22:31	nickik	I going to try with a normal jar.
22:49	nickik	Isn't there a generic way to make "6" --> 6? I remember somebody asking about that a while ago. You can do it with Intager/parseInt but what if you get a other numbertype?
22:52	TimMc	nickik: I guess you could use read-string if you were certain it was safe numeric input.
22:52	TimMc	But that's quite a sledgehammer.
22:55	nickik	mmhh true. I think it was something else. I have to search the logs. Im doing benchmarks so it does not matter. Thx for the tip.
23:05	amalloy	afaik you have to choose between the sledgehammer and the chopsticks here - clojure doesn't have a lot of in-between ways to parse integers
23:08	amalloy	i'm not sure you have to be certain it's safe numeric input, though. call read-string and check number?
23:09	amalloy	disable read-eval if it would be a problem for the user to eval arbitrary code in your app; if they're only hurting themselves, don't worry about it
23:20	amalloy	&(doc sync)
23:20	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([flags-ignored-for-now & body]); transaction-flags => TBD, pass nil for now Runs the exprs (in an implicit do) in a transaction that encompasses exprs and any nested calls. Starts a transaction if none is already running on this thread. Any uncaught exception... http://gist.github.com/867860