#clojure – 2011-03-06

2011-03-06

00:00	skelternet	the documentation to write and parse xml in clojure is easier to find than the reason not to, and how to dump your struct to a clojure file, and read it back in.
00:01	skelternet	Sure the clojure docs are there, but I haven't found a blog or an article that says "no no, don't do that...do this! It's native!"
00:01	amalloy	skelternet: if your struct doesn't include foreign java objects, the latter is trivial and the former is not
00:02	amalloy	but send an email to alan@malloys.org to remind me and i'll see if i can put together a blog post about it
00:02	TimMc	Oh, this is bloody brilliant.
00:02	amalloy	TimMc: the article, or something you've just done?
00:03	TimMc	The serialization support.
00:03	skelternet	?
00:03	TimMc	skelternet: Let me gist something for you.
00:03	amalloy	i think he's referring to the extensibility of print-dup
00:04	skelternet	I'm so new, I don't think I could ref my own butt at this point.
00:04	skelternet	However, I did manage to use enlive to rescue our database schema documentation from our wiki. 3500 column defs
00:04	amalloy	hah
00:05	skelternet	so, now is a good time for me to sharpen my saw.
00:05	skelternet	(only 3500 of the columns were documented. we have >6000)
00:06	TimMc	amalloy: OK, less brilliant than I thought.
00:06	amalloy	lol
00:06	amalloy	TimMc: gist it already
00:09	TimMc	https://gist.github.com/857048
00:10	skelternet	oops
00:10	amalloy	$google defrecord2
00:10	sexpbot	First out of 20 results is: david-mcneil/defrecord2 - GitHub
00:10	sexpbot	https://github.com/david-mcneil/defrecord2
00:10	amalloy	i believe that includes readable print-dups
00:10	TimMc	heh
00:14	TimMc	Thanks, I'll think about using that.
00:14	skelternet	it seems long. but yeah, thank you!
00:15	TimMc	For now, though... bed. G'night!
00:32	waxrose	Howdy every one. :)
00:34	amalloy	hola waxrose
00:34	waxrose	amalloy, :D
01:49	Scriptor	man, not seeing pipes to separate stuff in the topic feels weird
01:50	amalloy	silly Scriptor, pipes are for combining stuff! find \| grep
01:51	Scriptor	but...but...delimeters!
02:28	amalloy	heehee. i just wrote (str tok). reminds me of the bad old days in C
02:33	Derander	amalloy: I have never written a C program
02:34	amalloy	Derander: it's not a bad thing to be able to do
02:34	amalloy	what are your other languages?
02:34	shachaf	amalloy: Hopefully not with the same meaning as in C? :-)
02:34	Derander	amalloy: the web languages
02:34	Derander	amalloy: javascript, php, ruby, clojure
02:34	Derander	I guess I know haskell
02:34	amalloy	Derander: the joke is that strtok is one of C's worst APIs
02:35	amalloy	it's inherently un-thread-safe
02:35	shachaf	Clojure is a web language?
02:35	Derander	I know that string stuff in C is the cause of problems
02:35	Derander	scode_: no.
02:35	Derander	scode_: wrong person, sorry. shachaf
02:35	Derander	I just meant that I came into programming primarily through the web
02:35	amalloy	Derander: strtok is worse. iirc instead of returning something, it modifies a global variable to reflect what it wants to return
02:35	Derander	brilliant
02:36	amalloy	$google c strtok string.h
02:36	sexpbot	First out of 7770 results is: strtok - C++ Reference
02:36	shachaf	To be fair, there's strtok_r.
02:36	sexpbot	http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/clibrary/cstring/strtok/
02:36	amalloy	shachaf: sure sure
02:37	shachaf	amalloy: Is strtok inherently thread-unsafe?
02:38	Derander	amalloy: I guess I was being vaguely untruthful. C was the first language I "learned", but I was 6-7 at the time and it did not stick.
02:38	amalloy	shachaf: C string to truncate. The contents of this string are modified and broken into smaller strings (tokens). Alternativelly, a null pointer may be specified, in which case the function continues scanning where a previous successful call to the function ended.
02:39	amalloy	so to get more than one token out of your string, you call it with NULL after the first time
02:39	shachaf	amalloy: Sure, but it could use a thread-local variable instead of a global variable pretty easily.
02:39	amalloy	that's fair, i suppose
02:39	amalloy	you still have to add the _r semantics to be any good at all, of course
02:40	shachaf	Of course.
02:40	shachaf	And even then it's a pretty suspicious function.
02:41	amalloy	whereas (str tok) is delightfully clear and simple: convert tok to a string :P
03:07	amalloy	guys fnparse is pretty awesome
03:20	khaliG	hi, what's the idiomatic way of getting the filenames in a directory?
03:21	amalloy	khaliG: file-seq, i think
03:21	khaliG	amalloy, looks good, thank you
04:59	octe	,(/ 10 3)
04:59	clojurebot	10/3
05:04	clgv	,(/ 30 9)
05:04	clojurebot	10/3
05:04	clgv	just curious^^
05:19	bennylut	what functions can iterate over a map (as key-value pairs)?
05:20	clgv	e.g. map ;)
05:20	clgv	afaik a map is a seq of key-value pairs
05:20	bennylut	clgv, hmm.. didnt know it can be handled like that
05:21	bennylut	the map function parameter just need to get 2 parameters (aka key+value)?
05:21	clgv	&(map #(println (str "key = " (key %) " val = " (val %))) {:bla 1 :blubb 2.0 :lala 10/3})
05:21	sexpbot	⟹ (key = :bla val = 1key = :blubb val = 2.0nil key = :lala val = 10/3nil nil)
05:22	bennylut	clgv, thanks!\
05:22	clgv	&(dorun (map #(println (str "key = " (key %) " val = " (val %))) {:bla 1 :blubb 2.0 :lala 10/3}))
05:22	sexpbot	⟹ key = :bla val = 1 key = :blubb val = 2.0 key = :lala val = 10/3 nil
05:22	clgv	oh sexpbot omits line-ends...
05:23	bennylut	clgv, its ok i get the picture :)
05:23	clgv	I thought so ;)
05:25	clgv	yo might consider using destructuring in the fn
05:25	clgv	&(dorun (map (fn [[k v]] (println (str "key = " k " val = " v))) {:bla 1 :blubb 2.0 :lala 10/3}))
05:25	sexpbot	⟹ key = :bla val = 1 key = :blubb val = 2.0 key = :lala val = 10/3 nil
05:29	the-anome	hi
05:33	bennylut	clgv, thank again :)
08:35	TimMc	This is because C is a toy language originally intended for implementing an OS to so a guy could write a chess program.
08:35	TimMc	Ack, sorry -- hadn't scrolled down.
08:37	bawr	That reminds me - if I name some of my functions like X<-Y, taking Y and returning X, will people hate me? ;)
08:38	bawr	This is probably due to some Hungarian Notation virus, really.
08:46	ttmrichter	TimMc: It wasn't a chess program. It was Space War, if memory serves.
08:47	TimMc	It wasn't Ken what's-his-face at Bell Labs, wanting to write a chess AI opponent on spare hardware?
08:47	TimMc	That's what one of my profs told me.
08:49	ttmrichter	Nope. It was tragically far goofier than that.
08:49	ttmrichter	A chess AI would have a bit of cachet.
08:50	ttmrichter	Unix started life as a quick and dirty OS for a PDP-7 to run Space War.
08:50	ttmrichter	C started as a portable assembler to move Unix to a PDP-11.
08:51	ttmrichter	(I may have the name of the game wrong in retrospect -- it was Space something, but that something might be War or something else.)
08:57	ttmrichter	Ah, here we are! Space Travel. http://people.fas.harvard.edu/~lib215/reference/history/spacetravel.html
09:01	TimMc	haha
09:19	pyr	TimMc: i got my pb right fixed it with a lazy-seq
10:27	TimMc	Makes sense.
10:48	TimMc	Argh, I just hit C-x C-s to save a doc in another program -- emacs is eating my brain!
10:49	clgv	lol. that isnt exclusive to emacs. I did strg+s when I had the impulse to temporary save a comment I was posting in a wiki ;)
10:50	clgv	it gets really stupid if paranoia kicks in and you'll end up pressing strg+s multiple times without a change ;)
10:52	TimMc	strg?
10:52	clgv	oops. in english: ctrl ;)
10:52	TimMc	ah
10:53	clgv	lol the left one already has no caption anymore
10:53	TimMc	When I do that, the browser prompts me for a filename to save the page to. >_<
10:53	clgv	yeah. thats the problem ;)
10:54	TimMc	Wha makes it worse is that some pages (e.g. Google Docs) will capture and use the keystroke.
10:54	clgv	but if they save the data it's probably ok ;)
10:54	clgv	deleting it without backup would be a real killer feature ;)
10:57	TimMc	I've been thinking about making a website that violates as many user expectations as possible. I may use that idea. :-)
10:58	clgv	lol. send me the link on completion ;)
10:59	TimMc	It's just an idea I'm kicking around.
11:11	eckroth	macros that use macros are a bit challenging for me; specifically, if I have multiple namespaces that each have a unique macro, and each of these macros use some common macro, where do I put the common macro?
11:14	clgv	the question remains the same if you replace macro by function ;)
11:14	clgv	does it sound easier now?
11:15	clgv	I would place it in a namespace for itself that communicates its "common" notion
11:16	clgv	perhaps you have other common definitions then you could put the together
11:16	clgv	s/the/them/
11:16	sexpbot	<clgv> perhaps you have othemr common definitions themn you could put them togethemr
11:16	clgv	oops
11:17	eckroth	I've had confusing experiences in which I felt that the common macro wasn't found, that it had to be local (duplicated for each use); I'll run a few tests right now
11:18	clgv	that sounds strange.
11:24	eckroth	clgv: yeah, I can't reproduce the behavior on a simple test; I suppose you're right :)
11:24	clgv	I used macros across namespace boundaries ;)
11:29	dfan	What's the idiomatic way to construct a map with precomputed values? I did it 'by hand' with (apply hash-map (apply concat (for [n (range 0 100)] [n (f n)]))) but that seems suspiciously verbose
11:30	clgv	dfan: you could use map-cat instead
11:30	eckroth	(reduce (fn [m n] (assoc m n (f n))) {} (range 0 100)) ?
11:31	DespiteItAll	sounds like a job for map-indexed
11:31	dfan	clgv: mapcat, you mean? I don't see how that's relevant here
11:31	clgv	like: (apply hash-map (mapcat (fn [n] [n (f n)]) (range 0 100))
11:31	DespiteItAll	(map-indexed f (range 0 100))
11:32	DespiteItAll	but for the more general case, I use apply hash-map. I've had that catch mistakes that reduce/assoc wouldn't catch (duplicate keys)
11:33	dfan	Aha, OK, you're using mapcat to combine my (concat (for))
11:33	clgv	yes
11:33	DespiteItAll	oh, duh, map-indexed doesn't return a map, so you'd still need apply hash-map
11:34	clgv	yeah. and he doesnt the index-property in this case at all ;)
11:34	clgv	thats only usefull when you iterate over other "objects"
11:35	dfan	OK, thanks, it sounds like there's nothing ridculously shorter
11:35	clgv	not really, since you have to create that list
11:36	DespiteItAll	clgv: Yep, I smoke lots of crack.
11:36	DespiteItAll	At best I was thinking of zipmap, but really I'm not making any sense
11:36	clgv	you shouldn't - it effects health and sanity ;)
11:37	DespiteItAll	(zipmap (range 100) (map f (range 100)))
11:38	DespiteItAll	but that's not really any clearer
11:38	dfan	Yeah, although there I'm duplicating (range 100)
11:38	dfan	I can make a little helper function, I just thought that maybe said helper function already existed
11:39	DespiteItAll	This seems like a common enough case that there should be.
11:41	clgv	you think?
11:41	clgv	the most general is the hash-map with the list of key-val pairs
11:42	dfan	and I like zipmap best as the way to write that helper function - I didn't like using it at the top level because it forced me to duplicate the domain, but it's fine inside the function
11:42	clgv	(defn create-hash-map [f coll] ...) ?
11:43	dfan	Right, I now have (defn make-hash-map [f vals] (zipmap vals (map f vals)))
11:43	clgv	&(doc zipmap)
11:43	sexpbot	⟹ "([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."
11:44	DespiteItAll	dfan: I would put vals in a let, that way if it's a calculated list it won't be calculated twice
11:45	dfan	How would vals get calculated twice?
11:45	clgv	DespiteItAll: like his defn above it's also calculated only ones ;)
11:45	clgv	s/ones/once/
11:45	sexpbot	<clgv> DespiteItAll: like his defn above it's also calculated only once ;)
11:45	DespiteItAll	yeah, ok
11:46	dfan	Thanks all
11:50	ApeShot	So I've been reading about how to implement lazy sequence functions and noticed here
11:50	ApeShot	http://clojure.org/lazy
11:50	ApeShot	that recursive calls in a lazy-seq block are always proper recursions rather than "recur" forms.
11:51	ApeShot	Doesn't this somewhat limit the usefulness of lots of functions, like map and filter, which now, though lazy, can also blow the stack?
11:51	ApeShot	Or does lazy-seq somehow trampoline them?
11:51	stuartsierra	it's similar to trampolining
11:52	stuartsierra	a lazy seq consists of lazy cons cells, ...
11:52	stuartsierra	… which are pairs sort of like <fn to return first>, <fn to return rest>
11:53	ApeShot	Yes, as soon as a typed the question, I realized it was probably a de facto trampoline
11:53	ApeShot	Good to know, though
11:55	TimMc	ApeShot: Look at the source for LazySeq. You can see the trampolining code, it's pretty cool.
11:56	ApeShot	rad
11:56	ApeShot	Clojure is pretty slick
11:56	ApeShot	Will we get proper tail calls when the JVM supports them or are the contours of the language comfortable with explicit or trampolined self-recursion
11:56	TimMc	I believe this is it: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LazySeq.java#L42
11:57	clgv	yes it is
11:59	bawr	I vaguely remember that explicit tail calls were meant to stay the way they are.
12:00	ApeShot	I like the idea of tail calls being made explicit, but not the idea of being limited to self-tail-calls
12:01	ApeShot	Although I can't say I've had too many experiences where I really wanted to tail call somewhere else
12:02	ApeShot	It just seems like it would be nice to remove the limitation
12:03	clgv	I dont understand your case completely
12:03	clgv	is that other function calling the one with the tail call again?
12:04	clgv	for mutual recursion you can use trmpoline afaik
12:04	ApeShot	So recur simulates a tail call to the same call points as the context
12:04	ApeShot	self-recursion
12:04	clgv	self-recursion has to be the same function ;)
12:04	ApeShot	True tail calls clear the stack context before any tail call at all
12:04	ApeShot	in clojure, yes
12:04	ApeShot	you can't "recur" to somewhere else
12:04	ApeShot	Only to the current function
12:04	ApeShot	This is less general than full tail call optimization
12:05	clgv	I would say the "self" in self-recursion defines that it is the same function
12:05	ApeShot	clgv: obviously
12:05	clgv	so you cant call another function in a self-recursion ;)
12:05	ApeShot	clgv: I am wondering if there are plans to provide explicit or implicit tail calls when the JVM is more modernized
12:07	TimMc	The problem will be backwards compatibility of new programs.
12:08	ApeShot	I don't see how it would break backwards compat
12:09	ApeShot	If tail calls become implicit, then nothing will change semantically in the language
12:09	ApeShot	if you add explicit tail calls
12:09	TimMc	Well, say you write a program for JVM 1.8 or whatever, relyn on implicit TCO.
12:09	ApeShot	say with a (tail destination & args) form like "recur" then old programs should be fine
12:09	ApeShot	Oh, sure
12:09	ApeShot	That kind
12:09	TimMc	Then run it on 1.6.
12:09	ApeShot	New programs won't run on the old version
12:09	DespiteItAll	I think it should always be explicit
12:10	TimMc	DespiteItAll: +1 to that.
12:10	ApeShot	DespiteItAll: I sort of agree witht his
12:10	ApeShot	At least the compiler can bark at you if you accidentally don't call in a tail position
12:10	ApeShot	And I suppose it allows more optimization, probably
12:11	TimMc	I believe the discussion for Java 1.7 included a "become" alternative for "return".
12:12	TimMc	THat would match up to a JVM TCO feature and allow compile-time checking.
12:12	DespiteItAll	interesting
12:12	pd	clj-http returns response headers as a map, but it seems that is inherently broken for responses that set multiple cookies, since you have 2+ "Set-Cookie" headers in the response
12:12	pd	you can only ever get access to the last one
12:12	pd	anyone know how ring deals with this?
12:13	TimMc	DespiteItAll: Or maybe, since become is not a reserved keyword yet, they could repurpose goto. :-P
12:13	TimMc	pd: Ooof, that's irritating.
12:13	DespiteItAll	I would love to see a GOTO comeback
12:13	DespiteItAll	I want to see a bunch of OOPers using GOTO
12:14	clgv	doesnt like the semantic behind goto
12:15	TimMc	Hmm, I guess they do sometimes add keywords.
12:15	TimMc	http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/_keywords.html
12:16	TimMc	They added enum in v1.5 and assert in v1.4.
12:18	clgv	uh. whats strictfp?
12:19	TimMc	Strict floating point.
12:19	TimMc	Never used it myself.
12:20	TimMc	It's for portability, apparently.
12:20	TimMc	https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Strictfp
12:22	clgv	ah ok. never heard of it before ;)
12:22	TimMc	I didn't know what it was for until I looked it up just now, even though I've known of the keyword for... about a decade. :-P
12:26	TimMc	OK, some web pages are alleging that TCO is being worked on but isn't likely to land in v1.7, but has a good chance at v1.8.
12:30	pd	now i need to work with a modified clj-http, what's the most reasonable way to go about doing that when my project uses lein?
12:31	TimMc	pd: Is it a local modification, or did you find a public fork?
12:31	pd	local, i just cloned the repo and added in some cookie handling code.
12:35	TimMc	I think there's a way you can install a local project using lein.
12:36	TimMc	See if "lein install" is what you want.
12:40	pd	TimMc: yeah that will work, ty
12:41	pd	tho it feels like it's going to be tedious to edit, lein install clj-http, then update deps in my project, then hit the repl to see if it's working out, ... =)
12:42	TimMc	pd: Try writing some tests in your clj-http fork
12:42	pd	i have
12:45	TimMc	Maybe there's a way of asking for local deps.
12:45	TimMc	You'll still have to lein clean && lein deps && lein test
14:13	pyr	hi
14:13	pyr	while sending a blocking function to an agent
14:13	pyr	(this specific function constructs a seq with lazy-seq)
14:14	pyr	await-for doesn't exhibit the correct behavior
14:14	pyr	in that it never returns
14:14	pyr	send and send-off to the agent makes no difference
14:15	pyr	do i have to agentify each call in the function being sent ?
14:16	bennylut	hi all, i want to define a new exception from within clojure using deftype - i want to be able to supply message to the this exception using the extended exception constractor - can it be done?
14:27	bennylut	hi all, i want to define a new exception from within clojure using deftype - i want to be able to supply message to the this exception using the extended exception constractor - can it be done?
14:29	tomoj	Exception is a class, deftype implements interfaces/protocols
14:29	TimMc	bennylut: Clojure frowns on extending concrete classes, by the way.
14:31	tomoj	I think there are only two options if you insist: gen-class and proxy
14:31	TimMc	You can alway extend it in Java and use it in Clojure.
14:37	TimMc	bennylut: More importantly, perhaps... why do you need another exception type?
15:07	khaliG	is filter a good way to search a vector?
15:08	paraseba	khaliG: not very good, since it returns another seq. filter is good to, well, filter the vector
15:08	paraseba	khaliG: you may want to use some
15:08	paraseba	(some #(= :yes %) [:no :yes :maybe])
15:09	khaliG	paraseba, ah good point, i glanced past that before but didn't realise it wasn't just a predicate like its company
15:11	paraseba	khaliG: a common idiom is to use sets as predicates with some, since sets are function of their values
15:11	paraseba	(some #{1 2 3} some-seq)
15:12	khaliG	paraseba, understood
15:21	khaliG	is .equals the right way to compare strings?
15:25	mduerksen	no, = is
15:25	paraseba	khaliG: you can use .equals, but its easier to use =
15:26	khaliG	that's nice and consistent
15:27	mduerksen	yes, i love that about clojure. comparison is generally very simple here, no need to worry about pointer-equivalence like in java and the like
15:28	paraseba	yes, comparison turns out very easy for clojure types, since everything is immutable
15:28	khaliG	but strings are immutable in java too
15:29	paraseba	they are java strings
15:30	khaliG	is this illegal ... (fn [{_ name __ value}] ...)
15:31	amalloy	khaliG: it's legal, but probably not what you meant
15:31	khaliG	"Unable to resolve symbol: value in this context"
15:31	khaliG	hm lets see
15:32	khaliG	the dashes are keywords which i dont care about -- and the other two are values which i do
15:32	khaliG	eg, {:name "Bodyweight", :value "197"}
15:33	paraseba	khaliG: try {_ :name _ :value}
15:33	amalloy	&((fn [{:keys [name value]}] (str name " " value)) {:name "Bodyweight", :value "197"})
15:33	sexpbot	⟹ "Bodyweight 197"
15:34	paraseba	khaliG: { name1 key1 name2 key2}
15:35	Chousuke	or use the :keys shortcut like amalloy did
15:35	Chousuke	if there are keys you don't care about, those don't matter anyway
15:35	amalloy	right, the above is shorthand for ##((fn [{name :name value :value}] (str name " " value)) {:name "Bodyweight", :value "197"})
15:35	sexpbot	⟹ "Bodyweight 197"
15:40	amalloy	khaliG: satisfactory?
15:40	khaliG	yes, i just finished testing the defn and it works beautifully
15:40	khaliG	many thanks
15:41	khaliG	just one last question -- "12" to a number, should i use read-string, or (. Integer parseInt "12") like in Java
15:42	khaliG	i'm thinking read-string is more robust since it doesn't care about the size of the number
15:42	khaliG	but if efficient?
15:43	Chousuke	it uses the java parsers
15:49	TimMc	,(read-string "१२३")
15:49	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: १२३
15:50	TimMc	Fascinating. It knew the characters were numerals, but couldn't use them.
15:51	amalloy	TimMc: i get that a lot when people read my handwriting
15:59	khaliG	hm i could swear i saw a zip/unzip function somewhere.. :/
16:00	brehaut	khaliG: zipping lists?
16:00	brehaut	if so, map and apply map is your friend
16:01	khaliG	brehaut, i want to go from [[x1 y1] [x2 y2]...] to [x1 x2 ..] and [y1 y2 ..]
16:01	TimMc	map vector
16:02	brehaut	,(map vector [[:x1 :y2] [:y1 :y2]])
16:02	clojurebot	([[:x1 :y2]] [[:y1 :y2]])
16:02	tomoj	need to apply it
16:02	brehaut	ah yeah
16:02	brehaut	,(apply map vector [[:x1 :y2] [:y1 :y2]])
16:02	clojurebot	([:x1 :y1] [:y2 :y2])
16:03	brehaut	,(apply map vector (apply map vector [[:x1 :y2] [:y1 :y2]]))
16:03	clojurebot	([:x1 :y2] [:y1 :y2])
16:03	brehaut	things that are their own duals are cool
16:04	tomoj	is that just transpose?
16:04	brehaut	tomoj: yes
16:05	amac	,(interleave [:x1 :y1] [:x2 :y2])
16:05	clojurebot	(:x1 :x2 :y1 :y2)
16:08	khaliG	apply map vector works, not to understand why?!
16:08	khaliG	hm i think i get it, that's very cool
16:08	brehaut	khaliG: its pretty simple if you take the time
16:09	amac	you're mapping the first items in each input vec into an output vector, then the second...
16:09	brehaut	khaliG: you dont need specific zip and unzip functions in a language with varargs and apply semantics
16:10	TimMc	brehaut: But if you do have zip, you don't have to remember what "map vector" implies each time you read it.
16:10	amac	,(map vector [1 2] [3 4])
16:10	clojurebot	([1 3] [2 4])
16:10	amac	is the same as:
16:10	brehaut	TimMc: sure but id rather it was called transpose
16:10	amac	,(vector [1] [3])
16:10	clojurebot	[[1] [3]]
16:10	TimMc	brehaut: Yeah, that is a better name.
16:10	amac	,(vector 2 4)
16:10	clojurebot	[2 4]
16:11	amac	uhh, first one is wrong sry
16:11	tomoj	map is just zipWith with arbitrary arity?
16:13	khaliG	but yes it would look clearer with an explicit function
16:13	khaliG	i'm sure incanter has one, which is probably where i saw it, now that i think about it
16:14	TimMc	There is such a profusion of programming languages right now. Has this always been the case, and most languages just get forgotton?
16:15	TimMc	(forgotten, even)
16:15	khaliG	nope i'm mistaken, it's not in incanter either
16:15	tomoj	I think naturally with absolutely more programmers there will be absolutely more languages
16:15	TimMc	heh
16:15	tomoj	the history of the distribution of survival time would be interesting though
16:15	TimMc	I was thinking of the availability of tools, but you raise an excellent point.
16:16	khaliG	i'm not even trying to write clojure concisely it's just coming out that way
16:17	brehaut	there are more runtime platforms to build languages on now too, and you can get away with a slow homebrew runtime for many tasks
16:22	tsdh	I want to write a function that either gets a Vertex (some Java object) + some other args, or a seq of Vertex + some other args. How can I dispatch between the two?
16:22	clojurebot	http://www.math.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf
16:23	amalloy	tsdh: your specification is unclear. by the second case do you mean [v other other], or [v1 v2 v2] other other?
16:24	TimMc	tsdh: multimethod dispatching on first of args?
16:25	tsdh	amalloy: One would be (--> v1 :type 'foo) and the other (--> [v1 v2 v3] :type 'foo)
16:26	tsdh	TimMc: You mean (fn [c & _] (class c))? But what's the class of a seq?
16:26	TimMc	:default :-P
16:26	TimMc	,(class (seq [1 2 3]))
16:26	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
16:26	TimMc	Well, ISeq or something
16:26	Chousuke	don't rely on the classes
16:27	amac	seq is an interface
16:27	Chousuke	right. though you can call seq on more than just ISeqs
16:27	TimMc	hrm
16:27	Chousuke	I'd just check if the thing is a vertex and treat it as a seqable thing if it isn't.
16:27	TimMc	,(doc parents)
16:27	clojurebot	"([tag] [h tag]); Returns the immediate parents of tag, either via a Java type inheritance relationship or a relationship established via derive. h must be a hierarchy obtained from make-hierarchy, i...
16:27	Chousuke	with an if
16:27	amac	collections have functions that coerce them into seqs, but their class remains the collection type
16:28	amac	(type (seq "aoeu"))
16:28	amac	,(type (seq "aoeu"))
16:28	clojurebot	clojure.lang.StringSeq
16:28	amac	,(type (seq [1 2 3]))
16:28	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
16:28	TimMc	,(parents (class (seq "a")))
16:28	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.ASeq clojure.lang.IndexedSeq}
16:28	tsdh	Chousuke: Hm, well, yes. I think that's the simplest solution. :-)
16:30	amalloy	TimMc: parents is not what you want: ##(supers (class (seq "a")))
16:30	sexpbot	⟹ #{clojure.lang.Sequential clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Obj java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.Counted java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.IndexedSeq java.util.List clojure.lang.ASeq clojure.lang.IObj java.util.Collect... http://gist.github.com/857695
16:31	TimMc	,(doc supers)
16:31	clojurebot	"([class]); Returns the immediate and indirect superclasses and interfaces of c, if any"
16:31	tsdh	Why do vectors not implement ISeq?
16:31	amac	they do
16:31	tsdh	,(seq? [1 2 3])
16:31	clojurebot	false
16:31	amac	,(seq? (seq [1 2 3]))
16:31	clojurebot	true
16:31	TimMc	tsdh: They aren't seqs, they're collections.
16:31	amac	they need to be coerced, but it happens automatically for seq functions
16:32	pyr	so there are still ways to make agents block even with await-for and send-off, right ?
16:32	lpetit	Hello guys. Something totally off topic: for counterclockwise, I'd like to host the eclipse update site (it's really just a bunch of files hosted on an http server) myself, so that I can get by some way the number of downloads, for each version, per day/month, etc.
16:32	lpetit	And now the question : what to use ? awstats ? webalizer ? analog ? I will not do intensive usage, I do not want to specialize on log statistics. If you know the best fit for my usecase, thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.
16:33	amac	most webservers record access logs, just parse the logs to get the activity.
16:34	amac	...not entirely sure I understand the problem scope though
16:35	lpetit	amac: yes I understand that. The problem scope is: I publish a new version of counterclockwise, say 0.2.0. It's a bunch of files, one of whose I can count downloads on to know how many installations of the plugin have been made.
16:36	technomancy	lpetit: I host downloads on github, and I can see it broken down by version, but not by time.
16:37	technomancy	not too flexible, but definitely easy: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/downloads
16:38	amac	send github a patch to pull analytics by date, solve the problem for everybody :)
16:38	lpetit	technomancy: an Eclipse update site is a set of related files, one located in say /updatesite/site.xml, and the others in say /updatesite/plugins/ccw.jar , /updatesite/features/ccw_feature.jar . So there is an organization of files from /updatesite/ URI which is somehow expected by the Eclipse client
16:38	technomancy	ah, gotcha
16:39	lpetit	technomancy: yeah :-(. So I really need some kind of ftp-like http exposure
16:41	lpetit	I hoped I would not have to dig into apache configuration files again, seems like I was wrong :-(
16:41	amac	last year I started using lighttpd instead of apache, my life is now better
16:41	amac	seriously, break up with apache and never look back
16:41	lpetit	Unless I find some java webapp which would do this at the application level (serve as a proxy for the filesystem, and register logs for me). I think I can suffer the performance penalty.
16:42	brehaut	lpetit: that should be fairly straight forward to cook up with ring
16:42	amac	actually yeah
16:42	amalloy	good point
16:42	brehaut	lpetit: there is static serving middleware, and it would be trivial to wrap that in another middleware to do the counting
16:42	lpetit	brehaut: sure, it's just that I want to stay focused on my need.
16:42	amac	serve the files through the file middleware, and wrap it with a counter
16:43	Raynes	I never got a chance to breakup with apache. My first webserver was nginx.
16:43	lpetit	Now, if "all in all" it would cost me less time to play with ring, then yeah, that might be fun
16:43	amac	Raynes: I wouldn't wish an apache configuration on my worst enemy
16:43	lpetit	that's tempting, indeed :)
16:44	brehaut	lpetit: the ring end is the easy part, i think you'd probably spend more time faffing about getting it running on your server with apache and what not than actually developing it
16:44	lpetit	Apache configuration is like monkey patching, ask google, copy & adapt :-(
16:44	Raynes	amac: I wouldn't wish nginx documentation on the cleverest webserver newbie.
16:44	amac	hahaha
16:45	Raynes	There isn't much in the way of "what is a webserver and how do I make it serve web?" documentation on nginx that I could find.
16:46	amac	there isn't a massive amount of docs out there for lighttpd, but its an incredibly simple setup
16:46	brehaut	Raynes: a web server is an amorphous blob that consumes http requests, and does something undefined to produce a new http response.
16:46	lpetit	brehaut: it always seems easy when we're sufficiently far from the detail. But I'm pretty sure that if I'm going this road, sooner or later I'd want some stats based on day, then on geography, and sooner or later I'll wake up having reinventing half webalizer features, albeit with my proprietary log file format :-(
16:53	amalloy	pyr: seems so, yeah
16:54	pyr	amalloy: well then i don't get why this blocks forever for me
16:55	amalloy	&(let [a (agent 0)] (send-off a #(do (Thread/sleep 4000) (inc %))) (await-for 2000 a))
16:55	sexpbot	⟹ false
16:55	pyr	yep
16:55	amalloy	&(time (let [a (agent 0)] (send-off a #(do (Thread/sleep 4000) (inc %))) (await-for 2000 a) @a))
16:55	sexpbot	⟹ "Elapsed time: 2001.618224 msecs" 0
16:56	pyr	my func calls lazy-seq on itself
16:56	pyr	i wonder if that's the case
16:57	amalloy	pyr: then your agent is returning a lazy seq instantaneously and you're wasting a bunch of time derefing, probably
16:57	amalloy	try wrapping the await and the deref with (time)
16:58	pyr	time ?
16:58	amalloy	well, the deref will always be instantaneous. so maybe (time (doall @a))
16:58	pyr	oh
16:58	pyr	true
16:59	lpetit	technomancy: you gave me an idea !
16:59	lpetit	technomancy: from the docs of artifacts.xml in the eclipse.org website: "It is possible to change those rules to have a filter matching for a particular artifact and change the output to point to a specific location."
17:00	lpetit	technomancy: so I can change the default filter rule, and have all my plugins and features locations resolve to https://github.com/downloads/laurentpetit/ccw/*.jar
17:00	lpetit	yay !
17:02	lpetit	I need to find a way to automate this so that I don't have to change the file by hand for each delivery
17:04	lpetit	Hmm
17:14	pyr	gaah
17:14	amac	has anyone ever tried to send bulkmail through a gmail account? will them deliver them? (about 300 messages)
17:14	pyr	it blocks with loop / recur too
17:14	amac	using a lib like this one: http://blog.8thlight.com/articles/2010/4/21/mmemail-my-first-clojure-open-source-contribution
17:15	pyr	so it seems that if you poll the network await gets tricked
17:18	amalloy	pyr: i am dubious. maybe if you gisted some actual code...
17:18	pyr	will do
17:22	pyr	http://pastie.org/1640882
17:23	pyr	there's two versions that return a message list
17:23	pyr	amqp-topic is a lazy-seq, amqp-topic2 a loop/recur, both block even when inside an agent
17:28	amalloy	hm. seems like it ought to work, because mq is accepting InterruptedException
17:30	amalloy	as a side note though you're abusing agents here if you don't care about their value. just use future, future-done?, and future-cancel
17:31	TimMc	I believe ants.clj abuses agents the same way.
17:31	TimMc	Were futures not available yet?
17:32	TimMc	(I think it is a Clojure 1.1 vintage.)
17:32	pyr	ah, great
17:32	brehaut	TimMc: ants is pre 1.0
17:32	TimMc	brehaut: yikes!
17:32	pyr	when did future get in clojure ?
17:33	amalloy	&(-> future var meta :since)
17:33	sexpbot	⟹ nil
17:33	amalloy	hm
17:33	amalloy	&(meta #'future)
17:33	sexpbot	⟹ {:macro true, :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name future, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 5407, :arglists ([& body]), :added "1.1", :doc "Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will\n invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result... http://gist.github.com/857799
17:33	brehaut	&(-> future var meta :added
17:33	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
17:33	amac	&(source future)
17:33	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
17:33	brehaut	&(-> future var meta :added)
17:33	sexpbot	⟹ "1.1"
17:34	pyr	ok seems good
17:34	pyr	there's no reason why my stuff will work with futures but using the right constructs is good
17:34	TimMc	Oh hey, that uses java.util.concurrent.Future
17:34	raek	the executors framework of java has been available for clojure users all the time, though...
17:35	pyr	anything like awai-for for futures ?
17:35	raek	pyr: (.get ftr TimeUnit/SECONDS 10)
17:36	pyr	'k makes sense
17:36	raek	pyr: I wrote a ppost about this: http://blog.raek.se/2011/01/24/executors-in-clojure/
17:36	pyr	much more sense than what i did
17:38	raek	agents is a reference primitive built on top of executors and does not replace executors
17:39	pyr	thanks a lot, your blog post is really thorough
17:39	pyr	and will be of great help
17:39	raek	it would be nice if there was some documentation for certain java classes from a clojure perspective
17:39	TimMc	I need to learn about Executors. I don't think it existed the last time I used Java threads.
17:40	amalloy	TimMc: 1.5, right?
17:44	TimMc	Most likely v1.4.
17:44	TimMc	Or even v1.2.
17:45	amalloy	i meant that's when executors appeared
17:45	TimMc	Ah, OK. I have no idea.
17:45	TimMc	I just learned it existed this week,
17:45	TimMc	.
17:52	tomoj	pyr: I wonder if lamina may be relevant to your interests
17:59	amalloy	raek: looking at your bloggy thing now. "a units of work" is an arity mismatch
18:07	pyr	tomoj: i'll look it up
18:07	pyr	well future don't get me a free pass either :(
18:09	raek	amalloy: thanks for spotting that!
18:15	tomoj	pyr: e.g. in master (wait-for-result (task (Thread/sleep 1000) "foo") 900) throws a TimeoutException while (wait-for-result (task (Thread/sleep 1000) "foo") 1100) returns "foo"
18:16	tomoj	task being a macro similar to future except that it returns a result channel
18:17	tomoj	but lots of related stuff is brand new and unstable
18:17	tomoj	:(
18:19	pyr	tomoj: if the underlying mechanism is the same than for agents and futures it might not work either
18:20	pyr	\o/
18:20	tomoj	the underlying mechanism is quite different, if I understand what you mean
18:21	pyr	ok, with futures and the lazy-seq version it would fail but with the loop/recur one i get a result
18:21	tomoj	task does use an executor, and by default (I think) the soloExecutor agents use for send-off (right?). but otherwise, totally different
18:22	pyr	tomoj: ok
18:23	tomoj	using lamina just for that timeout thing in particular, of course, would be silly
18:25	pyr	yeah the idea of it is really interesting
18:25	amalloy	tomoj: less silly than using incanter to get an (average) function, at least
18:28	pyr	tomoj: the siphon approach is really interesting yes
18:28	pyr	i'll look into it seriously
18:28	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:29	pyr	well guys thanks for your help, time to catch some sleep
18:47	Nanakhiel	tomoj, my old friend
18:47	Nanakhiel	I love what you've done with your beard.
18:47	tomoj	you call this a beard?
18:48	Nanakhiel	tomoj, no idea, I'm just quoting this comedy group.
18:49	Nanakhiel	tomoj, how much beard do you have?
18:54	tomoj	not enough to call it that
20:05	preyalone	Clojure can't find my .clj files to compile them unless I type (set! compile-path* (str compile-path ":.")). Which config file could I put this in?
20:06	TimMc	preyalone: What are you using to compile?
20:06	amac	preyalone: do you use leiningen?
20:06	amalloy	preyalone: use a build tool like cake or leiningen instead of doing it by hand
20:06	preyalone	I just want to compile hello.clj. I'll use Leiningen for anything more complicated.
20:06	preyalone	TimMc: (compile 'hello)
20:07	amac	leiningen isn't as painful as you think
20:07	amalloy	preyalone: i literally have no idea how to compile things without a build tool. it's easier to use one than not to
20:07	preyalone	OMG
20:07	amac	type 'lein new projectname' and it'll populate everything you need
20:08	preyalone	I don't want any more files or directories than hello.clj.
20:08	TimMc	preyalone: You know you don't have to compile Ahead-Of-Time to run Clojure code?
20:08	amac	modify you src/project/core.clj file to (println "hello world")
20:08	amac	then lein run
20:08	preyalone	TimMC: I do to test how various command line arguments will be evaluated by interpreted vs compiled code.
20:08	preyalone	Is there ~/.cljrc or something similar?
20:10	TimMc	preyalone: Leiningen is super-easy to install (local, only takes a minute, uses ~/.lein for caching). It's dead easy to use, and pretty standard. (Cake is similar from a basic usage perspective.)
20:10	amac	I think you need to add :gen-class to your ns, then run javac -cp clojure.jar hello.clj
20:10	amac	...never actually done it manually
20:10	preyalone	amac: What does :gen-class do?
20:11	TimMc	I did it manually maybe once so that I knew how, and then started using a build tool and never looked back.
20:11	amac	http://clojure.org/compilation
20:11	amac	that should have some more details :)
20:11	preyalone	amac: Thanks man
20:12	amac	&(doc gen-class)
20:12	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([& options]); When compiling, generates compiled bytecode for a class with the given package-qualified :name (which, as all names in these parameters, can be a string or symbol), and writes the .class file to the compile-path directory. When not compiling, ... http://gist.github.com/857934
20:15	preyalone	Side note: When is -main run?
20:15	preyalone	Cause clj hello.clj doesn't run it.
20:16	amac	I know there's a resource in jars that specifies the name, I only know how to config it with leiningen but it can be specified manually
20:16	amac	s/name/main
20:16	sexpbot	<amac> I know there's a resource in jars that specifies the main, I only know how to config it with leiningen but it can be specified manually
20:16	preyalone	amac: Adding :gen-class doesn't appear to do anything.
20:17	amalloy	amac: META-INF/MANIFEST.MF has a Main-Class key iirc
20:17	amac	amalloy: that sounds familiar
20:17	preyalone	-main is only run when the script is compiled ???
20:18	amalloy	preyalone: or when you call (-main) yourself. it's not that hard
20:19	preyalone	amalloy: Surprises like that slow me down.
20:19	preyalone	amalloy: My goal is to get a behavior like Ruby's if __FILE__ == $0 main end
20:19	amalloy	preyalone: then take the advice of everyone in this channel and start using tools that hide those surprises from you
20:19	preyalone	amalloy: Those tools don't hide the main/-main surprise.
20:20	TimMc	preyalone: Yes they do!
20:20	TimMc	You add :main to your project.clj and DONE.
20:20	preyalone	Those tools will not make my script run (main) when it's interpreted.
20:20	amac	cave to the peer pressure.
20:20	TimMc	preyalone: Load-file it in a REPL and call (-main)
20:20	amac	all the cool kids use leiningen.
20:20	preyalone	TimMC: You mean add :main to the namespace?
20:20	TimMc	No, to the Leiningen or Cake project.clj file.
20:21	TimMc	Anyway, the distinction you want is compiled on the fly vs. AOT.
20:21	TimMc	Clojure is never interpreted.
20:21	TimMc	Build tools give you both.
20:22	preyalone	TimMc. Clojure interprets user commands. The fact that behind the scenes they are compiled to byte code is an arbitrary qualification.
20:22	TimMc	Sure, have it your way.
20:22	brehaut	TimMc: marginally correct ;) any JVM bytecodes may be interpreted during their lifetime but that is irrespective of JIT or AOT for the clojure compiler
20:23	amac	jit compiling still blows my mind
20:23	amac	that is straight up magic
20:23	preyalone	What's that about adding :main to my file? I have a main function specified. Should I add something to my namespace declaration?
20:24	TimMc	preyalone: :main is not added to your program.
20:27	brehaut	preyalone: have you read and digested all of http://clojure.org/compilation ?
20:27	preyalone	brehaut: I'm reading it right now.
20:28	preyalone	brehaut: The problem is compile-path does not have "." by default. When I add that, hello.clj compiles just fine.
20:29	brehaut	then do that?
20:29	preyalone	brehaut: Clojure has no trouble running hello.clj, it just can't find it when I (compile 'hello).
20:29	TimMc	There is no reason for compile-path to have "." in it by default.
20:30	brehaut	preyalone: personally i think doing it by hand is madness
20:31	amac	,compile-path
20:31	clojurebot	nil
20:31	preyalone	brehaut: On the other hand, needing tools just to compile Hello World is madness.
20:31	preyalone	amac: "classes"
20:31	brehaut	compiling hello world is madness
20:31	amac	there are step by step instructions for building hello world in that page I sent you
20:31	amac	sans tools
20:32	brehaut	AOT Compiling that is
20:33	amac	also, "hello world" is what clojurebot was born for :)
20:33	dfan`	Embarrassing question: How do I convert a sequence of chars to a string?
20:33	preyalone	amac: Those instructions only work for the example Hello World that comes with Clojure, not the same file located on my Desktop.
20:34	amalloy	dfan`: ##(apply str [\a \b \c])
20:34	sexpbot	⟹ "abc"
20:34	TimMc	,(str (seq "foo"))
20:34	clojurebot	"(\\f \\o \\o)"
20:34	amac	(reduce str [\a \b \r])
20:34	TimMc	worth a try
20:34	preyalone	This is rich: (compile 'clojure.examples.hello) java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/examples/hello__init.class or clojure/examples/hello.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:34	amalloy	or clojure.string/join, if you want anything fancier than plain concatenation
20:34	TimMc	No wait, it wasn't.
20:34	amac	,(reduce str [\a \o \e \u])
20:34	clojurebot	"aoeu"
20:34	dfan`	What clojurebot said :)
20:34	brehaut	preyalone: is your file in the correct directory structure?
20:35	dfan`	amalloy: Thanks, perfect
20:35	preyalone	brehaut: hello.clj is in /Users/andrew/Desktop.
20:35	brehaut	preyalone: then no, its not. put it in clojure/examples/
20:36	preyalone	brehaut: That won't help. Did you see the above excerpt? My Clojure can't even compile the example scripts.
20:36	preyalone	Could not locate clojure/examples/hello__init.class or clojure/examples/hello.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:36	amalloy	preyalone: good idae. ask for help, then reject it instead of trying it
20:36	brehaut	preyalone: to quote the error you are vomiting at me "clojure/examples/hello.clj on classpath: "
20:37	brehaut	if you dont put your file where its _explicitly tell you it should be_ it wont work
20:37	preyalone	all: MacPorts Clojure is having trouble finding ANYTHING, including the example scripts. Inserting my code there will not help me.
20:37	TimMc	preyalone: Why don't you try it, hm?
20:38	preyalone	THIS: (compile 'clojure.examples.hello) FAILS on my system.
20:38	brehaut	i let lein manage my project dependancies such as clojure, rather than some random package manager
20:38	amac	,(time (apply str [\a\o\e\u]))
20:38	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.128 msecs"
20:38	clojurebot	"aoeu"
20:38	preyalone	Straight from the Clojure - compilation tutorial: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=7StS2qvW
20:38	amac	,(time (reduce str [\a\o\e\u]))
20:38	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.15 msecs"
20:38	clojurebot	"aoeu"
20:39	amac	amalloy: damn, you win.
20:39	preyalone	brehaut: That might help.
20:39	amalloy	amac: it's because str uses a StringBuilder internally
20:39	TimMc	Good to know.
20:39	amalloy	if it has to return a real String after every concatenation it can't do that optimization
20:39	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
20:39	preyalone	Another problem is that Homebrew Chicken Scheme fails, MacPorts CLISP fails, and Fink SBCL fails. I need several package managers.
20:40	amac	that is handy information
20:40	brehaut	preyalone: i cant give you any more suggestions. clojure namespaces must be in the matching directory structure. if you refuse to acknowledge that, you will never solve this
20:40	amalloy	$source str
20:40	sexpbot	str is http://is.gd/ovOFFx
20:41	preyalone	brehaut: Open my pastebin. http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=7StS2qvW THE TUTORIAL DOESN'T WORK ON MY SYSTEM.
20:41	brehaut	preyalone: you have spent your last credit of good will.
20:41	TimMc	I'm already /ignore ing him.
20:41	TimMc	Forgot to add -replies.
20:42	amalloy	i wonder why str uses an anonymous function instead of a loop
20:43	amac	can loops be lazy?
20:43	amalloy	no, but neither is str
20:43	amac	it looks like it can be
20:44	amalloy	it can't
20:44	amalloy	because a string is a single atomic object
20:44	amalloy	you can't return part of a string and give out the rest later
20:46	TimMc	I see this (.x (toString)) syntax all over c.core -- is there a particular reason it isn't written (.toString x) ?
20:46	amac	you can if the str is coerced into a seq
20:46	amac	(type (seq "aoeu"))
20:46	amac	,(type (seq "aoeu"))
20:46	clojurebot	clojure.lang.StringSeq
20:46	TimMc	amac: The wrapper is a seq, sure.
20:47	amac	yeah, I guess it still needs to have the underlying string before it can be coerced
20:47	amac	but that's the only use case I can think of for lazy strings
20:47	johnmn3	any clojars.org admins in the house?
20:48	TimMc	Now, you can certainly make a lazy seq of characters, and the fn could take the same args as str.
20:48	amalloy	TimMc: i think the version in c.core is (a) faster to compile, and (b) possibly more correct if there happens to be an object so dumb as to have a field named toString
20:48	amac	but when you create a str it would pull the entire lazy seq of chars
20:49	TimMc	amalloy: Ouch, I forgot about that.
20:49	TimMc	I had been wondering about how to deal with the rare case of identical field and method names, and now I know. :-)
20:51	amac	.(str \a \o (delay \e))
20:51	amac	,(str \a \o (delay \e))
20:51	clojurebot	"aoclojure.lang.Delay@2c5810"
20:51	amac	eww
20:51	TimMc	heh
20:58	amalloy	johnmn3: i dropped an email to contact@clojars a week or so ago and haven't heard back. ping me if you get a hold of anyone
20:59	johnmn3	amalloy: yea, I forgot my password on there and sent in an email too.
20:59	TimMc	Has stuff on clojars been vetted in any fashion, or is it just a free-for-all registry of code repos?
20:59	johnmn3	pretty sure it's free-for-all
20:59	amalloy	TimMc: push anything you want
21:00	johnmn3	you register an ssh key though.. it's not like people can step on each other
21:00	amalloy	(shameless-plug http://hubpages.com/hub/Build-your-own-Clojure-toolkit mentions how easy it is to use clojars)
21:01	brehaut	amalloy: haha i was just reading that
21:02	amalloy	brehaut: after i wrote a couple articles i started getting automatic plugs from planet clojure. it was pretty neat to see that they've used yahoo pipes to automatically incorporate my clojure articles into their feed
21:03	brehaut	amalloy: yeah i noticed they did that with my site too
21:03	brehaut	im tempted to make a special feed for them so its a bit more targetted
21:03	amalloy	brehaut: have you looked at the source of the pipe?
21:03	amalloy	it's probably targeted enough
21:03	brehaut	amalloy: i dont have a yahoo account so i cant
21:04	brehaut	amalloy: i think it looks for the word clojure in the body?
21:04	brehaut	i know its not everything
21:04	amalloy	mine is like "articles by amalloy with Clojure in the title or description"
21:04	brehaut	but its picking up my short links if they match
21:04	amalloy	ah
21:04	brehaut	and that often repeats things that are in the pipe already
21:04	brehaut	which (IMO) is a bit lame
21:04	amalloy	yeah i see what you mean
21:05	amalloy	i only publish full-length articles so didn't consider that issue
21:05	brehaut	yeah i think its fine for most people
21:05	brehaut	who have real content rather than links to other peoples content
21:18	amalloy	anyone have a link on getting started with Ring?
21:19	amac	amalloy: I've been figuring it out with the source examples, the tutorial space is light for clojure networking
21:20	brehaut	amalloy, amac: http://mmcgrana.github.com/
21:20	brehaut	Lau has a couple of worked examples on his github too
21:21	brehaut	also wow, lein 1.1 thats an old tutorial
21:22	amac	also, I'm using aleph which is even lighter on docs
21:22	amac	but based on ring, so figuring ring out gets me 80% of the way there
21:23	brehaut	aleph is a bunch more (for a lack of better word) experimental
21:24	amac	yeah, I've been trying to fix a bug all week parsing form post data, can't figure out if its a problem with my code (probably), aleph (also pretty likely), or ring (doubtful)
21:25	amac	brehaut: have you played with aleph?
21:25	brehaut	amac: its on my list but not yet
21:26	amac	bummer, I haven't run into anybody who's used it
21:26	amac	it actually seems pretty slick, if I can get it all working
21:27	brehaut	it seems very slick yeah
21:27	amalloy	omg my computer says Hello world from Ring! this is exciting stuff
21:28	brehaut	ztellman's been putting a lot of thought into it and the channel's stuff in general. a lot of promise there in general
21:29	amac	amalloy: you're one step ahead of preyalone ;)
21:29	amalloy	hahahaha
21:29	brehaut	baha
21:29	TimMc	>_<
21:29	brehaut	amalloy: have you got it saying hello world only once?
21:29	amalloy	eh?
21:30	brehaut	make your handler approximatly (fn [req] (prn "hello") {:body "Hello, world" :status 200})
21:30	amalloy	what. noooo, side effects are evil, why would i prn
21:31	brehaut	amalloy: so that you can see it handling each request in the console
21:31	brehaut	rather than just what you see from the browser
21:31	amalloy	psh
21:32	brehaut	alternative use a proxy tool i guess :)
21:32	TimMc	amalloy: At least it's not a JOptionPane
21:33	amalloy	while i'm on the topic of learning new things, someone teach me how to manage multiple swank servers/repls from emacs
21:34	joshuac	amalloy, what I do is start the swank server on a different port and connect to it with another instance of emacs
21:34	amac	lein swank takes a port arg (defaults to 4005)
21:34	amalloy	amac: sure, i can start lots of servers
21:35	amalloy	managing to use them sensibly is trickier
21:35	amac	then M-x slime-connect in emacs to whichever running server you want
21:35	amalloy	and this...what, gives me multiple slime-repl buffers, each connected to a different server?
21:35	amac	err, I guess you can only have one slime connection per instance of emacs
21:36	amac	fire up screen and start multiple emacses
21:36	amac	emacsen?
21:36	amalloy	barff
21:36	amalloy	emacsen, i believe
21:36	amac	I've never actually had a use for that word
21:36	amalloy	hah
21:41	phenom_	what's the call to convert a keyword to a string?
21:42	amalloy	name
21:42	brehaut	,(name :keyword)
21:42	clojurebot	"keyword"
21:42	TimMc	$findfn :phenom_ "phenom_"
21:42	sexpbot	[clojure.core/name clojure.contrib.string/as-str]
21:42	phenom_	amalloy: beautiful! thnx
21:43	amac	and oppositely, ##(keyword "aoeu")
21:43	sexpbot	⟹ :aoeu
21:43	amalloy	amalloy for speed, brehaut for clarity, and TimMc for teaching you to go fishing your own damn self :)
21:43	amalloy	$botsnack
21:43	sexpbot	amalloy: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
21:43	amalloy	TimMc: ^
21:43	TimMc	We're all winnnars!
21:43	brehaut	haha :)
21:44	brehaut	phenom_: name works on any clojure.lang.Named implementation (which i believe is just keyword and symbol at present)
21:44	amac	and my advice is to solve a different problem than the one you asked.
21:44	TimMc	haha, nice
21:44	amalloy	chuckle
21:45	amac	$botsnack
21:45	sexpbot	amac: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
21:46	amac	who needs a dog?
21:46	sexpbot	woof!
21:46	amac	I don't even need to walk this bot
21:46	TimMc	amalloy: sexpbot doesn't shed enough.
21:47	amalloy	TimMc: submit a pull request with more hairs
21:47	TimMc	OK, I think I can manage hairy code..
21:48	TimMc	Oh man, I'm so gonna write a macro called backwards-day that reverses the exprs it receives.
21:49	amalloy	TimMc: that's already been done a few times. try writing one that reverses the nested expressions too
21:49	amac	set it to only trigger on preyalone's messages
21:50	amac	or just set all of his responses to clojure.examples.__hello__.init not found
21:50	amalloy	that's actually remarkably simple now that i think about it. (defmacro backwards-day [& exprs] (clojure.walk/postwalk reverse exprs))
21:50	TimMc	amac: That's horrible!
21:50	TimMc	And yet...
21:50	TimMc	amac: $botsnack
21:51	amac	TimMc: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
21:51	sexpbot	TimMc: moar plz. still hungry
21:51	TimMc	amac: Laggy. You should ask your doctor to take a look at your inner loops.
21:52	amac	hah
21:52	TimMc	amalloy: What should (bday 1 2 (bday 3 4)) do?
21:52	amalloy	(if anyone's bothered by this: i'm acting as sexpbot's puppeteer here. he really doesn't just volunteer clever complaints)
21:52	waxrose	Hello every body.
21:52	TimMc	I assume yo'd have to write it (bday 1 2 (4 3 bday))
21:53	TimMc	hey waxrose
21:53	waxrose	TimMc, Howdy.
21:53	amac	I'm fairly sure one of these days I'm going to hop on the channel an sexpbot will be alive.
21:53	amac	I'm keeping on his good side for when the revolution comes.
21:53	waxrose	Seems like I missed some excitement.
21:54	TimMc	Sort of. amalloy had his hand up a bot.
21:54	amalloy	TimMc: i guess...your fixed version would turn into (do (3 4) 2 1)
21:54	Derander	waxrose: I read that as "excrement"
21:54	amalloy	Derander: last time i typed excitement on my phone, it got auto-corrected to excrement
21:54	Derander	nice :-)
21:54	waxrose	amalloy, Don't you just love that?
21:54	TimMc	amalloy: (do (4 3) 2 1), actually
21:55	amalloy	TimMc: this shit hurts my head
21:55	TimMc	Wheee!
21:55	amalloy	also both of us forgot the second do
21:55	TimMc	yup
21:55	waxrose	amalloy, Isn't that a sign of greatness?
21:57	TimMc	The well-known saying says nothing about fools, unfortunately. :-(
21:57	waxrose	lol
21:57	amalloy	(macroexpand-all '(bday 1 2 (4 3 bday)))
21:57	amalloy	(do (do 4 3) 2 1)
21:58	TimMc	\o/
21:58	amalloy	and my original version didn't work so good, since it required that everything be a seq
21:58	amalloy	(defmacro bday [& exprs] (cons 'do (clojure.walk/postwalk (transform-if sequential? reverse) exprs))) ; using transform-if from my toolbox
21:59	TimMc	You wrote my macro. ;.;
21:59	amalloy	lol
21:59	waxrose	lol
21:59	TimMc	Well, I guess I can start using it now.
22:00	amalloy	TimMc: and i hereby release it under the gpl! now you can't use it without licensing your code under the gpl
22:00	TimMc	onoes
22:00	TimMc	How ever shall I incorporate that into my GPL code?
22:01	TimMc	(I actually don't know how GPL version mismatches are resolved.)
22:03	amac	I think the new ones infect the older versions
22:04	amac	open source licencing is a laughably complex solution to a simple problem
22:05	amac	http://www.opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical
22:14	Adamant	lawsuits (BSD/MIT) and the legal inability to easily invert copyright law (GPL) lead to most of the complications.
22:14	Adamant	well, the fundamental ones, anyway
22:31	amalloy	ugh. someone plz improve the error message you get when you (:use (foo.core)) instead of (:use foo.core) or (:use (foo core))
22:31	amalloy	ie, cause there to be an error message
22:43	phenom_	hey guys ... lets say for example we have a network service that accepts requests on a socket, does some processing with internal shared state accross every request and returns a response ... that shared state, how should it get to each of the network handlers (the one accepting/processing requests)? global variable ?
22:44	amalloy	phenom_: i'd make the server socket hold onto an atom/ref around your global state, and then either pass it to the socket-handlers or make them closures around that atom
22:47	amalloy	eg, (let [server-socket (...), state (atom {})] (defn serve [] (while true (respond state (.accept server-socket)))))
22:52	phenom_	haha, making depencies explicit and forced in a way ...
23:02	amalloy	i don't see why that's funny, but sure