#clojure – 2011-03-04

2011-03-04

00:17	joshua__	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5189983/failing-to-upload-items-to-database-using-congomongo
00:19	joshua__	Spent an hour looking into how MongoDB worked to see if that could be the cause. I'm really stumped. The best I can come up with is that I'm actually submitting to a database other than the one I'm trying to connect to, but I just don't know.
00:24	amalloy	joshua__: i don't think anyone will have an easy time answering your question from the information given
00:29	joshua__	amalloy, adding code
00:31	amalloy	hm
00:32	bartj	I am looking to build an interface similar to Google Squared
00:33	bartj	would compojure be suitable for this ?
00:33	amalloy	joshua__: i'd try adding some debug code to the upload-item code
00:33	amalloy	eg, if you find that it's nil print something
00:33	joshua__	amalloy, It is downloading properly. I checked.
00:33	amalloy	ahem, upload. the insert! code
00:35	joshua__	Good idea.
00:40	joshua__	I'm so confused. It isn't calling upload-item, but I don't understand why.
00:41	amalloy	joshua__: well, now you have something to work with. mongo isn't getting involved at all; see what's happening in the function above it
00:45	joshua__	So basically a list of two 'items
00:45	joshua__	properly like I would expect to be..
00:45	joshua__	is being passed to (map upload-item ..)
00:45	joshua__	Double checking that upload-item isn't being called
00:46	amalloy	joshua__: laziness?
00:46	joshua__	amalloy, I don't know how.. but maybe?
00:46	joshua__	How would I check?
00:46	amalloy	joshua__: just don't use any lazy function (eg map) for side effects
00:46	amalloy	change it to doseq
00:47	amalloy	or wrap it with (dorun)
00:47	joshua__	Alright so doseq instead of map
00:52	joshua__	amalloy, thank you, your a genius
00:53	joshua__	Do you want to post the StackOverFlow answer for me to accept or I can write it up myself if you would prefer?
00:54	amalloy	oh hm. i guess i should do that. i only recently joined SO :P
00:55	joshua__	From now on I'll try to be more idiomatic by wrapping side effect calls in doseq. I never realized that their was a good reason to do so before now.
00:56	amalloy	joshua__: it also kinda makes me twitch to see an if with no else branch; usually you should use (when) if there's no else. among other things, it helps you notice if you've forgotten the else accidentally
00:59	joshua__	amalloy, I'm really starting to see why open source coding is the way to go. I get to learn so much more than were I to go it alone.
00:59	joshua__	amalloy, Thanks for the tips.
01:00	pdk	another bonus is when wraps the then form in an implicit do
01:01	amac	I've always used if expr nil... I'll have to be more aware of that little tidbit
01:02	DespiteItAll	i've only ever used when-not, but then I'm used to thinking in "unless"es
01:02	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(when x y))
01:02	sexpbot	⟹ (if x (do y))
01:03	joshua__	&(macrodexpand `(defn [x] (+ x)))
01:03	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: macrodexpand in this context
01:04	joshua__	&(macrodexpand '(defn [x] (+ x)))
01:04	joshua__	&(macrodexpand '(defn [x] (+ x)))
01:04	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: macrodexpand in this context
01:04	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(defn [x] (+ x)))
01:04	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration + should be a vector
01:04	amalloy	huh
01:04	joshua__	sexpbot, I'm bad at you.
01:04	Despite_	you got a extra d in there
01:05	joshua__	&(macroexpand '(defn [x y] (+ x y)))
01:05	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration + should be a vector
01:05	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(defn foo [x] (+ x)))
01:05	sexpbot	⟹ (def foo (.withMeta (clojure.core/fn foo ([x] (+ x))) (.meta (var foo))))
01:05	Despite_	also, wtf
01:05	joshua__	Now I see what I was doing wrng...
01:05	joshua__	How the heck do I ever get anything done ;p
01:06	joshua__	Where is the implicit do?
01:06	amalloy	it's in the expansion of fn
01:06	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(fn [x] (+ x)))
01:06	sexpbot	⟹ (fn* ([x] (+ x)))
01:06	amalloy	well whatever
01:06	amac	hah
01:06	amalloy	it's in the compiler's interpretation of fn* :P
01:07	amac	its in there somewhere, I promise
01:07	amalloy	&((fn [] (println 1) 2))
01:07	sexpbot	⟹ 1 2
01:07	joshua__	$((fn [] 1 2))
01:08	joshua__	&((fn [] 1 2))
01:08	sexpbot	⟹ 2
01:08	joshua__	Your right it seems.
01:08	amalloy	joshua__: let also has an implicit do
01:09	joshua__	amalloy, Thank you. Thank you so much. You have no idea how many times I'm using do in my code without need.
01:09	amalloy	joshua__: see also doto
01:09	amalloy	,(doto (inc 1) println)
01:09	clojurebot	2
01:09	clojurebot	2
01:12	joshua__	amalloy, I should probably have a language exploration day where I cruise around looking for things I didn't notice. So many cool functions that I don't use.
01:13	Despite_	Huh, I thought doto was only for java objects
01:13	amalloy	Despite_: you can do whatever you want with doto. it just rewrites forms
01:14	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(doto x inc))
01:14	sexpbot	⟹ (let* [G__13499 x] (inc G__13499) G__13499)
01:14	Despite_	yeah, makes sense
01:14	Despite_	I've just never had need for it
01:17	amalloy	Despite_: it can be handy for debugging
01:52	amalloy	joshua__: for fun, i searched my src/ dir, and while it does contain plenty of (do ...) forms, none of them are in code i wrote :P
01:54	joshua__	amalloy, very nice.
01:54	amalloy	which of course is not actually meaningful. i probably needed local bindings or synchronization for most of them, so they're actually let or dosync
01:55	amalloy	but you should rarely need an actual do
01:55	joshua__	amalloy, I figured that was the case. I didn't know about let either so it is pretty much every instance of do that could be a do that is a do.
01:56	joshua__	amalloy, it worked out though, because it led me to a realization about how functional programming owrks.
01:56	joshua__	good night everybody
01:57	amalloy	heh
04:06	clgv	organization question: how do I get to run clojure-contrib with clojure 1.3.0-alpha4 by using leiningen?
04:07	clgv	changing version string "1.3.0-alpha4" for clojure.contrib in the project.clj doesnt work
04:08	robink	clgv: Different namespace.
04:08	clgv	robink: so which?
04:09	clgv	the information on the contrib sites is kinda sparse or well hidden ;)
04:10	robink	clgv: org.clojure.contrib.clojure-contrib/standalone I think.
04:10	robink	clgv: You're using Leiningen, right?
04:10	clgv	yes
04:10	robink	clgv: It may just be org.clojure.contrib/standalone. I can check.
04:10	clgv	ok I'll try now :)
04:13	clgv	robink: seemed to work. except that the name is a bit odd: standalone-1.3.0-alpha4.jar
04:13	robink	clgv: Just org.clojure.contrib/standalone "1.3.0-alpha4"
04:13	robink	clgv: Oh, hm
04:13	clgv	I would have expected "clojure" and "contrib" somewhere in it ;)
04:13	robink	clgv: Probably, there's a way to get it in lib/ as 'clojure-contrib-1.3.0-alpha4.jar'.
04:14	talios	thats a downside of the way stuart did the split up. contrib is now something like 60+ individual artifacts, or the combined "standalone".
04:14	clgv	robink: it's not a problem but odd ;)
04:15	robink	clgv: Holdon, I'm playing around. I did manage to get it installed as clojure-contrib-1.3.0-alpha4.jar somehow.
04:16	clgv	robink: I won't go anywhere for the next 8 hours ;)
04:16	robink	clgv: Heh, 'k
04:18	robink	clgv: Oh, looks like I just had it stored as standalone.
04:19	robink	clgv: The artifact namespacing is to delineate the full jar (entire contrib API) with individual libraries in the contrib project.
04:20	robink	As indeed, the name of the .jar on build.clojure.org is standalone-1.3.0-alpha4.jar.
04:20	robink	There may be a way to coerce Lein to rename the .jar for you, but that's a question for someone skilled at Lein, which I am not.
04:21	clgv	ok. maybe they should add clojure and contrib somehow - since it might get really strange in a project with lots of jars ;)
04:22	robink	clgv: Yes, it can, but I'm OK with the naming in its current state as I have little need of very unique namespacing (don't have a project that depends on another standalone-1.3.0 jar.
04:22	robink	s/\./\)\./
04:22	sexpbot	<robink> clgv: Yes, it can, but I'm OK with the naming in its current state as I have little need of very unique namespacing (don't have a project that depends on another standalone-1).3).0 jar).
04:22	robink	haha, didn't know sexpbot would do that.
04:23	clgv	g
04:23	robink	Oh jeez, it assumes /g.
04:23	robink	(plus I forgot about the dots in the version number)
04:24	robink	s/\.$/\)\./ would have been a better regexp
04:25	clgv	Could not locate clojure/contrib/duck_streams__init.class or clojure/contrib/duck_streams.clj
04:25	clgv	hmm guess it moved
04:26	robink	clgv: Depricated since clojure-contrib 1.2
04:26	clgv	what's the replacement?
04:26	robink	clgv: (according to http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/#duck-streams.
04:26	robink	Agh I did it again
04:26	robink	s/\.$/\)\./
04:26	robink	See if sexpbot fixes it this time.
04:26	robink	hm, interesting
04:27	clgv	it cant since you wrote inbetween ;)
04:27	robink	Oh, OK
04:27	robink	clgv: I dunno what the replacement is.
04:36	clgv	&(doc clojure.contrib.monadic-io-streams/read-lines)
04:36	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure.contrib.monadic-io-streams/read-lines in this context
04:36	clgv	&(doc read-lines)
04:36	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: read-lines in this context
04:37	clgv	&(find-doc ("read-lines)
04:37	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading string
04:37	Despite	most of duck-streams is in c.core or c.java.io i think
04:37	clgv	&(find-doc "read-lines")
04:37	sexpbot	⟹ ------------------------- clojure.contrib.duck-streams/read-lines ([f]) Like clojure.core/line-seq but opens f with reader. Automatically closes the reader AFTER YOU CONSUME THE ENTIRE SEQUENCE. ------------------------- clojure.contrib.io/read-lines ([f]) Lik... http://gist.github.com/854399
05:06	raek	clgv: duck-streams has been replaced by clojure.java.io: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.java.io
05:06	clgv	raek: thanks. got it running with it :)
05:24	raek	clgv: note that the features that has gotten promoted from contrib into clojure might behave slightly differently
05:24	raek	clgv: so reading the throught the new docs can be a good idea
05:24	clgv	raek: reading in the file in lines works.
05:32	bennylu	are you using throw/ catch?
05:32	AWizzArd	bennylu: yes
05:33	AWizzArd	You too? (:
05:33	bennylu	AWizzArd, i tried but it lead to massy code - dont you think?
05:33	bennylu	as in clojure it not so nice to define new exceptions ..
05:34	AWizzArd	Stable programs sometimes do require this chatty code bits.
05:34	bennylu	we cannot throw "clojure" objects right?
05:35	AWizzArd	You can throw Exceptions.
05:35	raek	(this is being discussed http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Error+Handling)
05:35	bennylu	thanks ill take a look
05:36	raek	the jvm exception system requires you to define new types to define new kinds of errors
05:57	tsdh	Hi. I just want to do my first clojure project using leiningen. I did lein new foo, but what's the correct way to specify local jars in the defproject's :dependencies vector?
06:07	tsdh	I mean, I want to add a jar as dependency that's not available from some repository on the net, but which resides somewhere on my local filesystem.
06:18	cinch	tsdh: i've never done this, but the lein faq says how to do it https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/
06:20	cinch	i hope they add a way to simply drop a jar in the /lib folder
06:20	tsdh	cinch: You mean, install it into the local maven repo using the command that's issued for non-downloadable deps?
06:21	tsdh	Dropping into lib/ works, but get's erased when doing "lein deps" another time...
06:22	cemerick	cinch: "It's much better to get the dependency in a remote repository for repeatability reasons though."
06:22	cemerick	just dropping stuff into /lib is sooo 2001 ;-)
06:23	clgv	tsdh: drop the additional jars in the lib folder and set: ":disable-implicit-clean true"
06:25	tsdh	clgv: Thanks, I'll try that.
06:29	bennylut	is there equivalance for "contains" in clojure (such that works for seq , vec strings etc.)
06:29	AWizzArd	~seen rhickey
06:29	clojurebot	rhickey was last seen in #clojure, 3892 minutes ago saying: ataggart: thanks for that patch! I hope to get some time to look at it soon
06:30	AWizzArd	$(/ 3892 60.0)
06:30	AWizzArd	~(/ 3892 60.0)
06:30	clojurebot	:negative/num-1 + :positive/num-1 = :zero/zero
06:30	clgv	&
06:30	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
06:30	AWizzArd	wow
06:30	clgv	&(/ 3892 60.0)
06:30	sexpbot	⟹ 64.86666666666666
06:33	clgv	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException, compiling:
06:33	clgv	how can that happen in clojure 1.3.0?
06:37	AWizzArd	clgv: have a look at the stacktrace
06:38	AWizzArd	There is maybe some other class missing, or you forgot to add a (:gen-class) to your ns declaration
06:38	clgv	it fails in some ns-statements. and lein doesnt show the complete one
06:38	bennylut	how to check mail? -sexpbot- says that i have new message..
06:39	clgv	$mail
06:39	sexpbot	You have no messages.
06:39	clgv	-> $mail
06:39	bennylut	thanks
06:39	bennylut	$mail
06:41	clgv	where would I need a (:gen-class) except in the ns with my Main method?
06:45	AWizzArd	clgv: (ns my.namespace (:use ...) (:require ...) (:import ...) (:gen-class))
06:45	clgv	yes, but I thought I only need it in my main-ns
06:46	AWizzArd	In the one that contains the -main fn that you want to be run on startup in your resulting .jar file.
06:46	clgv	the other files are normal clojure and do compile in 1.2
06:46	clgv	yes. there it is
07:02	raek	bennylut: contains? checks for keys in maps and elements in sets (and does so in constant time). you can use (some #{element} coll) if you want to scan a list in linear time
07:03	raek	if you need to check for membership often, consider using a set as the data structure rather than a list or a vector
07:03	bennylut	raek, thanks - i never heard of some
07:03	clgv	error is: java.lang.NullPointerException: null
07:03	clgv	at clojure.lang.Compiler$ObjExpr.emitVar (Compiler.java:4482)
07:03	clgv	clojure.lang.Compiler$DefExpr.emit (Compiler.java:393)
07:03	bennylut	raek, dosnt vector is realy a map behindt the scenes?
07:05	bennylut	raek, nevermind i forgot that the values in the map are not hashed only the keys ...
07:11	raek	a vector has a similar tree structure underneath
07:14	raek	but the interface you access it through does not necessarily reveal that
07:14	raek	contains? on a vector checks whether an index is in range
07:35	clgv	WARNING: defn already refers to: #'clojure.core/defn in namespace: Blubb, being replaced by: #'Blubb/defn
07:36	clgv	is this local symbol override not allowed in clojure 1.3 anymore?
07:37	clgv	I get the above exception right after this warning
07:37	AWizzArd	It seems that it is allowed, but just warns you. You did not explicitly exclude defn in your ns declaration.
07:38	clgv	but it directly breaks after this warning
07:39	clgv	the override is now modified to do nothing at all
07:39	cemerick	clgv: probably because you're wanting to use clojure.core/defn after you shadow it with something else
07:40	clgv	cemerick: it doesnt do anything now. but in general it will call clojure.core/defn explicitly later
07:42	clgv	I have this running with 1.2
07:45	cemerick	clgv: Are you attempting to use defn after you shadow it?
07:47	clgv	cemerick: you mean like (defn f [x] (* x (inc x))) or something?
07:47	cemerick	right
07:47	cemerick	that form will use whatever you shadowed defn to be, not clojure.core/defn
07:49	clgv	exactly what it should
07:49	cemerick	so, any exceptions at that point are on you, is what I'm getting at ;-)
07:50	clgv	thats true. but I am trying to find out why. it works with 1.2 since several months
07:51	cemerick	paste your stack trace
07:51	clgv	ok I'll paste the stacktrace where my shadowed defn simply return nil
07:53	clgv	http://pastebin.com/2Nxghj7r
07:54	clgv	cemerick: I guess you can simply skip to the cause part
07:56	cemerick	clgv: That's not very helpful. Shadowing defn and using that shadowed version appears to be just fine. https://gist.github.com/cf5a740be05fd99b5342 Perhaps paste what you're shadowing defn with?
07:56	clgv	I create a macro that shadows defn
07:57	cemerick	Well, it sounds like it needs to be tweaked for 1.3 then.
07:57	clgv	probably. but there is no general bigger change in 1.3 that might lead me directly to the problem?
08:00	cemerick	1.3 has a number of breaking changes: for starters, vars are no longer dynamic by default and primitive support has been added http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Enhanced+Primitive+Support
08:00	cemerick	clgv: ^^
08:04	bennylut	cemerick, vars are no longer dynamic?
08:04	cemerick	bennylut: in 1.3, not by default
08:04	clgv	yeah. I guess changes related to macros would be the first starting point
08:04	bennylut	that means that they cannot be redefined?
08:04	cemerick	no, redefinition is unaffected
08:05	cemerick	If you plan on binding a var, tack ^:dynamic true metadata onto the var's symbol
08:05	bennylut	ah ok.. thanks
08:06	clgv	cemerick: you know what Compiler.emitVar means semantically?
08:07	cemerick	That's an implementation detail. I believe it's specifying a constant referring to a var in bytecode.
08:08	clgv	hm the strange thing is, that I can "use" the ns where the error occurs in "lein repl" with clojure-1.3.0-alpha4
08:09	clgv	hmm well I skip it for now
08:18	tsdh	When I want to create a clojure function wrapping some java lib, and on the java side I have methods like X.foo(), X.foo(A), X.foo(A, B) where omitting a paramerter is equvialent to passing null, is there something better than having a foo function with 3 argument lists? I guess, something like keyword parameters would be handy...
08:20	AWizzArd	tsdh: you can use indeed such keyword args
08:20	tsdh	Found that: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/51bb53ca077154f8
08:21	naeu	cemerick: what does it mean that vars are no longer dynamic? Does it mean that we won't be able to rebind them in the REPL by default?
08:21	cemerick	naeu: right
08:21	tsdh	AWizzArd: Should I use that, or is something like that in core in the meantime?
08:21	AWizzArd	tsdh: einfach mit Destructuring: (defn foo [a b {:keys [x y z]}) (prn a b x y z))
08:21	naeu	interesting
08:22	cemerick	Actually, redefining a var as dynamic after the fact would be simple.
08:22	naeu	ok, that was going to be my next question
08:22	AWizzArd	tsdh: Better not use what Rich posted there. That is more like internal stuff and now implicitly available, as you can see in my example.
08:22	cemerick	The point is that vars don't need to be dynamic 99% of the time, and there's a big performance hit for supporting it 100% of the time.
08:22	tsdh	AWizzArd: Ok, I'll try that out.
08:22	AWizzArd	But 3 years ago, when Rich posted that, it was a good way.
08:23	naeu	I'm currently doing a lot of music live coding and redeffing vars is a key aspect
08:23	tsdh	AWizzArd: But with your suggestion the caller needs to pass an explicit map, right?
08:23	cemerick	naeu: redefining vars is not affected at all.
08:24	cemerick	only using binding and set! are affected
08:24	naeu	cemerick: oh ok, perhaps I don't get what being dynamic means in this context then
08:25	naeu	so what's the typical usecase for set! on a var?
08:25	naeu	I don't think I've ever seen that in the wild
08:25	cemerick	naeu: it's a more esoteric feature :-)
08:26	naeu	:-)
08:26	cemerick	The real power of dynamic vars and binding.
08:27	naeu	and with binding, I didn't realise that it was actually temporarily changing the var's val, I thought it was just modifying the lexical environment of the enclosed forms such that any reference to the original var would be intercepted by the temporary val
08:27	naeu	and therefore leaving the original var untouched
08:27	dnolen	naeu: and it's thread local.
08:28	naeu	sure, so I still don't really get what the difference between a static and dynamic var is
08:28	cemerick	binding will fail
08:29	AWizzArd	tsdh: no, the caller does not have to pass in a map
08:29	pyr	hi
08:29	naeu	ok, so it's really an implementation issue w.r.t. 'dynamic' vars
08:30	AWizzArd	tsdh: but right, I forgot a & symbol. The example should be: (defn foo [a b & {:keys [x y z]}) (prn a b x y z))
08:30	AWizzArd	(foo 10 20 :y 30)
08:30	pyr	does anyone know why (class "foo") yields java.lang.String but (isa? String "foo") or (isa? java.lang.String "foo") yields false
08:30	cemerick	naeu: https://gist.github.com/a60e9df0af7ccdeac539
08:30	naeu	you can still redefine them (which to me has always been the notion of dynamic that I understood)
08:30	tsdh	AWizzArd: Ah, great, works.
08:31	naeu	but you won't be able to rebind or set! them without declaring something first
08:31	stuartsierra	pyr: ` isa?` is not the same as `instanceof` in Java.
08:31	cemerick	right
08:31	AWizzArd	tsdh: you can also specify default values: (defn foo [a b & {:keys [x y z] :or {z 88}}] (prn a b x y z))
08:31	naeu	cemerick: cool
08:31	stuartsierra	,(instance? String "foo")
08:31	clojurebot	true
08:31	stuartsierra	,(isa? String CharSequence)
08:31	clojurebot	true
08:32	pyr	ah ok
08:32	pyr	,(count [1 2 3])
08:32	clojurebot	3
08:32	pyr	didn't know clojure bot :)
08:32	naeu	will Clojure 1.3 go through a beta phase at somepoint?
08:32	pyr	stuartsierra: thx
08:32	tsdh	AWizzArd: Oh, this is superb! I just found out that passing null to the java method won't do, so I started to write conditionals on the existance of keyword params, which is just as bad as 3 different arg lists. :-)
08:32	stuartsierra	naeu: yes
08:37	stuartsierra	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Release.Next+Planning describes the state of the upcoming release
08:46	clgv	stuartsierra: not much details over there ;)
08:47	stuartsierra	yeah, true
08:47	stuartsierra	Check the links to tickets, though
08:48	clgv	19 open tickets looks not too bad - but I don't know how much complexity that small number hides ;)
08:50	stuartsierra	clgv: The top features for Release.Next are 1) bugs in new numeric stuff; and 2) defrecord improvements
08:53	clgv	hmm I think I didn't read about it yet - are there developers that work fulltime on clojure?
08:54	stuartsierra	no
08:55	stuartsierra	Clojure/core aims to put 20% of our work time toward Clojure.
08:55	clgv	ah thanks for that info :)
08:56	chouser	stuartsierra: so there's only one Clojure book left that doesn't have one of it's authors working for you guys
08:57	chouser	I don't have a point, just seems worthy of a remark. :-)
08:57	stuartsierra	chouser: That's Amit R., right?
08:57	chouser	yep
08:57	stuartsierra	Where's he? San Fran?
08:57	chouser	I think so
08:58	stuartsierra	See, too far away.
08:58	chouser	But I bet he could use a co-author. What's Bedra doing these days. ;-)
08:58	clgv	:D
08:58	stuartsierra	Heh, writing an article about JSVC.
09:00	cemerick	chouser: we're still resisting the NC evil empire ;-)
09:00	cemerick	I'd probably just drive people nuts anyway, so it's better if we just stay friends. :-P
09:01	chouser	cemerick: Fogus lasted until about week before his book went to press. You've got a while.
09:01	cemerick	chouser: I may be fundamentally unemployable.
09:02	chouser	cemerick: hmmm, I guess I could believe that. :-D
09:02	cemerick	:-D
09:02	chouser	So, anyone want to take bets on how long before we see akka for Node.js?
09:02	chouser	You've all seen that akka now has Clojure-style STM?
09:03	dnolen	ick
09:03	stuartsierra	chouser: Yep, they even admit they stole it from Clojure ;)
09:03	dnolen	not Akka w/ STM (knew about that)
09:03	cemerick	The same things that made me make a choice in the rich vs. king dichotomy probably make me difficult to work with in someone else's workplace.
09:03	chouser	yep. All the benefits of Clojure without the nasty syntax.
09:03	cemerick	akka seems like it's got everything for everyone
09:05	stuartsierra	cemerick: agreed, it's the kitchen-sink approach
09:06	chouser	did they include something that Clojure doesn't?
09:06	stuartsierra	chouser: configurable thread pools
09:07	chouser	ok
09:07	cemerick	not exactly a watershed feature
09:08	stuartsierra	yeah
09:08	cemerick	stuartsierra: can we get the super-secret skinny on the 1.3/2.0 poll results, or is that super-super-secret?
09:09	stuartsierra	Basically an even split.
09:09	cemerick	I should have ramped up that bot more. :-P
09:10	stuartsierra	Basically, everyone likes Semantic Versioning, but no one likes the consequence.
09:10	chouser	heh
09:10	cemerick	Unprincipled sycophants.
09:11	stuartsierra	cemerick: Isn't that the definition of open-source communities? ;)
09:12	chouser	there have been breaking changes within 1.x already. Seems like there's no principle to stand on really.
09:12	cemerick	chouser: nothing of consequence really though, right?
09:12	cemerick	stuartsierra: Amen, brother.
09:12	chouser	is this change "of consequence"?
09:13	chouser	I really have no strong opinion.
09:13	stuartsierra	Technically, no public APIs broke from 1.0 to 1.1 and 1.1 to 1.2.
09:13	cemerick	chouser: In relative terms, I don't know. Do you remember the breaking changes in 1.x?
09:14	stuartsierra	Some unspecified behavior changed.
09:14	chouser	"2.0" will make a bigger news splash for about a week. After that, I can't imagine anyone really caring.
09:14	chouser	I'm pretty sure things were deprecated. ^
09:14	stuartsierra	Deprecated, yes, but not broken.
09:15	cemerick	well, that's what's supposed to happen before they're removed
09:15	chouser	^ does something completely different
09:15	cemerick	Anyway, i'm sure Rich already had an opinion and probably won't be swayed in either direction by polls and ML posts.
09:17	chouser	just checked. If you have ^ in your code, Clojure 1.0 will act very differently than Clojure 1.2. shrug
09:17	clgv	reading "deprecated", I wonder if there will be some kind of mechanism that warns the programmer that he is using deprecated functions?
09:18	stuartsierra	chouser: Yes, but that's forward compatibility :)
09:22	chouser	clgv: in general, warnings are printed, but there's no cohesive mechanism yet.
09:22	clgv	chouser: I didn't see any when using clojure.contrib.str-utils and others in 1.2
09:23	stuartsierra	clgv: All of clojure.contrib.* is essentially deprecated now.
09:23	clgv	stuartsierra: great :P
09:23	stuartsierra	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Common+Contrib+Build
09:23	chouser	clgv: hm, good point. Contrib has been less rigorous about printing deprecation warnings.
09:24	clgv	hm yeah I noticed when wanting to get clojure.contrib 1.3.0 with leiningen. ;)
09:24	clgv	but no problem, I'll stay with 1.2 for the time being until the 1.3/2.0 release
09:30	amac	anyone know why ring.middleware.wrap-params won't pull :form-params (or any params) out of something like <form name="fname" method="post" action="/myhandler"><input type="text" name="bleh" value="testval"/><input type=submit value="send!"/></form>
09:30	amac	I must be missing something simple
09:30	dnolen	stack splitting in GCC, http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/SplitStacks, any other langs that people have used that implement this?
09:30	amac	I get the request to the handler just fine, but wrap-params isn't parsing the post form
09:52	bennylut	is there a way to set! a var defined in let? ( like: (let [x 5]
09:52	bennylut	(do (set! x 7)
09:52	bennylut	x)) )
09:53	dnolen	bennylut: let doesn't define vars. it defines locals. and you can't set locals.
09:53	amac	you can recur with updated values though
09:54	bennylut	amac, recur is a good option, but i will restart all what i done..
09:55	bennylut	dnolen, so how can i handle state if i need to (not globaly)
09:58	amac	bennylut: hmm... perhaps wrap your state with an agent to control state? http://clojure.org/agents
09:58	dnolen	bennylut: you could use an atom. but it's best to see if you can just find a functional solution. not always possible to do cleanly - but that's rare I think.
09:59	dnolen	,(let [x (atom 5)] (reset! x 7) @x)
09:59	clojurebot	7
09:59	bennylut	dnolen, amac, thanks ill take a look in atoms and agents :)
10:01	raek	bennylut: recur can "jump pack" to a point closer to the recur call than the function start if you use 'loop'
10:02	raek	bennylut: all this depends on what you are trying to do. using concurrency primitives (atoms/refs/agents/vars) for basic computations is usually unideomatic in clojure
10:03	bennylut	raek, yes i know - the case is that i want to parse some text and to do lookahead, when some times after "looking ahead" some vars need to be changed...
10:03	bennylut	but i think i will use atoms for that
10:04	raek	lookahead sounds like a perfect fit for (lazy) sequences
10:05	raek	(if (= (nth elements 3) "foo") (do-one-thing elements) (do-another-thing elements))
10:06	bennylut	i need to do somthing like (let [x (heavy-calc) y (somthing-depend-on-the-heavy-calc)] and so i want during the "heavy calc" assign y
10:07	raek	bennylut: can't you just use an if in the right hand side?
10:07	raek	(let [x (if (neg? x) (-x) x)] ...)
10:07	raek	this looks somewhat like assignment, but really isn't
10:08	bennylut	raek, it not depend on the value of x but durring the calculation of x y can be calced reletivly costlessly ..
10:08	raek	perhaps you could use destructuring
10:09	bennylut	destructuring??
10:09	raek	(let [[x y] (heavy-calc)] ...)
10:09	raek	and make heavy-calc return a vector/list of two things
10:09	bennylut	i didnt know i can do that - this is just what i needed
10:09	bennylut	raek, great! thank you very much
10:11	ev4l	good morning everyone. i think i may be facing a common clojure error, but still haven't figured it out.
10:12	ev4l	i'm intending to use the defvar- macro from 'clojure.contrib.def', but when i require it, the environment whines telling that the 'clojure.contrib.def' namespace is inexistent.
10:12	ev4l	(throws a ClassNotFoundException)
10:12	ev4l	i suspected the possibility of clojure-contrib not being on the classpath, but it is
10:12	raek	ev4l: that sounds like you do (require clojure.contrib.def) instead of (require 'clojure.contrib.def)
10:13	raek	ClassNotFoundException means that a Java class could not be loaded, and if you don't quote the namespace name, it will be interpreted as a name of a class
10:14	ev4l	raek: that's it =]
10:14	ev4l	raek: it worked. I knew that was something stupid...lol
10:14	ev4l	raek: thx alot
10:14	raek	(if you have the require in your ns form it should look like (ns foo (:require clojure.contrib.def)) though. i.e. no quote and : before require)
10:14	amac_	I do crap like that constantly
10:15	TimMc	chouser: Eep, I think I didn't see #8 before! My bad.
10:15	gtrak	hmm, damn netsplits
10:16	clojurebot	destructuring is http://clojure.org/special_forms#let
10:21	clgv	what is a netsplit anyway?
10:22	TimMc	Two IRC servers lose a link, I think.
10:22	clgv	why do they? did they forget to pay their ISPs?
10:22	clgv	:P
10:23	TimMc	Naw, just transient network errors.
10:23	TimMc	Wikipedia actually has a decent article on this.
10:25	clgv	uff
10:25	clgv	shouldnt have loaded the wikipedia article, eh?
10:28	TimMc	How many new tabs do you have open now? :-P
10:30	gtrak	in counterclockwise, when debugging, what do you guys use for the source lookup path?
10:31	thegabble	Hi all, I had a newbie question... if I have absolutely no knowledge of Java am I going to find it impossible to pick up Clojure? Would it be better to tackle another LISP/Scheme?
10:32	gtrak	you don't know java nor a lisp?
10:32	thegabble	I totally missed the Java revolution as my CompSci was pretty much Pascal, C, Ada and professionally it's been Python and Fortran
10:33	thegabble	Clojure seems really cool so was going to give it a go… but the Java thing scares me :)
10:33	stuartsierra	thegabble: Java knowledge is not a strict prerequisite for learning Clojure, but to do any real work in the language you will at least need to learn the common Java APIs for things like I/O.
10:33	gtrak	you can pick up a working knowledge of java in a couple weeks, read effective java and look over the apis
10:33	thegabble	Ahhh… that was the feeling I was getting from everything I've read/seen
10:34	thegabble	Great… thanks for the info gtrack & stuartsierra
10:34	stuartsierra	'welcome
10:35	raek	thegabble: my experience is that you are expected to at some point learn how to call java methods from clojure. for instance know that when you see http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html#toUpperCase(), you can do (.toUpperCase "foo") in clojure
10:36	raek	and that most often, you don't need to know how to write code in java
10:36	thegabble	raek: but you do need to know the API's right? so that would be a good place to start
10:38	raek	thegabble: you don't need to know much at all about the java api to learn the core clojure language
10:38	Pisketti	I'd like to read that
10:39	raek	thegabble: but there are areas (for instance I/O) where you usually just use java directly
10:40	gtrak	actually knowing java well wouldn't hurt you, but depends on your timeframe what's most useful
10:40	thegabble	Just started working my way through 'Programming Clojure' and was wondering how much trouble I was getting myself into :)
10:41	thegabble	It's more for fun/trying something new/thinking new ways so time frame is long
10:41	thegabble	Thanks for the info guys!
10:44	clgv	a strategic thought: I have complex objects that are constructed within a thread each and then will be used unaltered in the main thread. would it be a good choice to implement these objects as deftype and to use transients for their parts which are made persistent! when the thread finished construction?
10:47	stuartsierra	clgv: perhaps, but remember that transients still aren't mutable in-place.
10:48	clgv	stuartsierra: that restriction means in detail? does a (transient (vector (range 10))) grow wenn I'll do assoc! ?
10:48	clgv	I mean when I do assoc in the range 0...9
10:49	stuartsierra	It just means when you call (assoc! …) you have to use the return value.
10:49	stuartsierra	The transient thing you called assoc! on is no longer valid.
10:49	clgv	oh.
10:49	stuartsierra	For example, you can't do (dotimes [i 10] (assoc transient-thing i ...))
10:50	stuartsierra	s/assoc/assoc!/
10:50	sexpbot	<stuartsierra> For example, you can't do (dotimes [i 10] (assoc! transient-thing i ...))
10:50	clgv	in general or in special cases?
10:50	stuartsierra	In other words, transients don't give you a free pass on writing your code in a functional style.
10:50	stuartsierra	You have to use the transient "!" functions the same way you use their non-transient counterparts.
10:51	stuartsierra	They're just slightly more efficient.
10:51	clgv	ok
10:51	stuartsierra	And you can't use an old value once you've called a transient "!" function on it.
10:51	clgv	the strange thing is, that I have a case where it worked
10:52	stuartsierra	Sometimes it will, but it's not guaranteed.
10:52	clgv	yeah I'll change it
10:53	stuartsierra	Rule of thumb: write your code without transients first, then add the "!" characters to make it transient when you're sure only one thread needs access to those data structures.
10:54	clgv	ok. good one
10:55	rindolf	Hi all. My message to the Google Groups did not arrive there yet. I am shlomif@iglu.org.il / Shlomi Fish.
10:56	stuartsierra	new members are moderated - it will show up as soon as a moderator has a chance to look at it
10:57	rindolf	stuartsierra: yes, I figured out something like that.
10:58	rindolf	OK, let me pastebot the message text, in any case.
10:58	stuartsierra	It will get to the list eventually, just be patient.
11:00	TimMc	thegabble: Note that some of the syntax in Programming Clojure is out of date -- nothing major, but something to be aware of. (It was written against Clojure 1.1.)
11:00	rindolf	stuartsierra: yes, OK.
11:00	rindolf	http://www.shlomifish.org/Files/files/text/clojure-script.mbox - here it is if you're interested.
11:01	thegabble	TimMc: Thanks for that, good to know.
11:02	TimMc	The only thing that specifically comes to mind is the behavior of ^ for metadata.
11:03	TimMc	Anyone know if Stu H. hangs out in this channel>
11:05	amac_	TimMc: all the cool people hang out here ;)
11:05	TimMc	heh
11:05	cemerick	TimMc: rarely
11:06	TimMc	OK. Was just wondering if his book will be updated with notes on 1.2 syntax.
11:07	clgv	TimMc: would be only worth it if 1.3 will still take a lot of time, I guess
11:21	TimMc	Netsplit over?
11:23	TimMc	,ping
11:23	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: ping in this context
11:23	TimMc	Oh good.
11:33	tsdh	Hi, I'm suffering from a strange defmulti dispatching problem. Somehow, the dispatch function complains about too many params. But a totally similar defmulti works fine. I've restarted swank, but the error persists. And ideas? http://pastebin.com/UPwvpju3
11:45	tsdh	Ah, got it. A missing & in the parameter list. I needed more than 30 minutes of staring at the code to spot that error. :-)
12:52	fliebel	Is there a way to make a for parallel?
13:01	dnolen	fliebel: still plugging away at the logos bug. I think I have the solution but it turned out there are other things that needed fixing as well. I'm amazed that this issue didn't crop up with any of the other programs like flatten-o, append-o or zebra-o.
13:03	opqdonut	fliebel: not as such. use map or make your own macro
13:06	fliebel	dnolen: It almost seems one needs to have the precision of a watchmaker to implement miniKanren.
13:09	dnolen	fliebel: haha, perhaps. but I think this really is the last issue. It's actually the last bit about the original miniKanren implementation I didn't fully understand.
13:09	fliebel	opqdonut: You know how these executor pools work?
13:10	dnolen	,(reduce concat (pmap identity (partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6])))
13:10	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6)
13:10	dnolen	fliebel: the important thing is that there needs to be enough work. so you need to pick a proper batching size ^
13:11	fliebel	dnolen: Well, since I have only few cores, a few huge chunks of work seems appropriate.
13:13	fliebel	delay…? ##(doc delay)
13:13	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a Delay object that will invoke the body only the first time it is forced (with force or deref/@), and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent force calls."
13:14	dnolen	fliebel: delay will probably be part of my solution to the overflow bug.
13:15	dnolen	does anybody else ever feel the need for an interleave that continues after some seqs have been exhausted?
13:16	dnolen	(weave [a b c d] [e f]) ;; (a e b f c d)
13:18	fliebel	dnolen: No, but I guess it is useful for interleaving solution streams :)
13:18	dnolen	fliebel: ;)
13:24	opqdonut	fliebel: oh, I misunderstood "parallel"
13:24	opqdonut	fliebel: I thought parallel insted of nested traversal of the sequences
13:24	opqdonut	sorry
14:22	TimMc__	OK, is freenode done thrashing yet?
14:22	lucian	TimMc: maybe it's GCing :)
14:46	TimMc	Man, I can't even get to the freenode website from here.
14:54	amalloy	ieure: heh, i sent a link to php-repl around to my coworkers. the php programmers are like "meh", but the ruby programmers who have to write occasional php are like "zomg plz give"
15:10	ohpauleez	amalloy: haha, the first thing I picked up when I had to start doing php at my current job was php-repl
15:10	ohpauleez	the same thing happened to me
15:10	ohpauleez	I was like, "Guys, this is rad, finally, a repl"
15:10	ohpauleez	and the php devs just shrugged
15:10	amalloy	ohpauleez: facebook's phpsh looks like it has way more awesome features, excep the one critical feature of "it works"
15:11	ohpauleez	haha, yes, I found that to be true as well
15:11	mattmitchell	i'm trying to figure out how to write a test, that uses an external web service as it's datasource. how can i test without actually calling the service. i realize it'd be mocking, but how in clojure?
15:12	amalloy	$google clojure mock unit test
15:12	sexpbot	First out of 5400 results is: Unit Testing in Clojure
15:12	sexpbot	http://nakkaya.com/2009/11/18/unit-testing-in-clojure/
15:12	ohpauleez	Raynes: I'm working on clj-bitbucket right now, just a heads up if you wanted to roll it into sexpbot
15:12	ohpauleez	amalloy: ^
15:12	amalloy	hm, doesn't mention mocking. lame
15:13	spewn	mattmitchell: There does exist http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/mock-api.html
15:13	amalloy	mattmitchell: you can use http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/mock-api.html or https://github.com/marick/Midje
15:13	mattmitchell	excellent :) i'll try those out.
15:13	mattmitchell	thank you
15:13	amalloy	ohpauleez: bitbucket the scm system?
15:14	ohpauleez	yeah, the api to bitbucket
15:14	ohpauleez	which is like the api to github
15:15	spewn	Midje looks sweet; I wish I learned about this earlier.
15:15	TimMc	chouser: Point #8 does seem to cover it, must have missed it before. (Resending because I'm on a stable server now.)
15:19	amalloy	TimMc: good choice to resend, cause i haven't seen that message yet :P
15:19	TimMc	Yeah, looking back, the channel was suspiciously quiet. :-)
15:19	amalloy	ohpauleez: i'm not interested in bitbucket myself but i've echoed you to #sexpbot so if he's interested he can
15:20	ohpauleez	cool
15:20	ohpauleez	amalloy: I also have little interest in it, but I needed it to grab clojure lib stats... so alas
15:20	amalloy	hah
15:23	semperos	amalloy: where can I get the php-repl you guys are talking about? I see a few tools upon Googling
15:23	amalloy	semperos: it's on github
15:23	amalloy	$google github ieure php-repl
15:23	sexpbot	First out of 14 results is: ieure/php_repl - GitHub
15:23	sexpbot	https://github.com/ieure/php_repl
15:23	semperos	k
15:23	semperos	that's the first I found, thx
15:33	stuartsierra	Hey rhickey: https://gist.github.com/855659
15:33	stuartsierra	This works, but I don't know if it's usable in practice.
15:34	stuartsierra	It depends on how quickly the PhantomReference gets garbage-collected.
15:35	TimMc	I don't see rhickey...
15:35	stuartsierra	eh, ok. It was his suggestion.
15:36	TimMc	(I have JOIN/PART/NICK/QUIT hidden, so... I should fire up my alt.)
15:38	TimMc	there
15:42	nawk	is clojure a Java program?
15:42	stuartsierra	nawk: The compiler is written in Java, yes.
15:42	amalloy	nawk: it's more of a java library
15:43	amalloy	though "platform for writing programs in java" is more useful than either definition imo
15:43	gfrlog	you use clojure to write java?
15:44	nawk	so I run java.exe clojureComputer.class <clojure_source> to compile a program?
15:44	gfrlog	(public class Amalloy (public static void main (String args[])))
15:44	amalloy	gfrlog: the output of both languages is jvm bytecode
15:44	stuartsierra	nawk: Where are you seeing clojureComputer.class?
15:44	gfrlog	amalloy: that's how I would have put it :)
15:46	nawk	stuartsierra, I didn't. Mmm.. how do I run the compiler than?
15:46	nawk	it's said to run under the JVM right?
15:46	stuartsierra	yes
15:46	stuartsierra	You can run "java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main" to start the Clojure REPL (interactive console)
15:48	nawk	stuartsierra, that's what I mean, when I asked if it's a Java program :-)
15:48	nawk	s/mean/&t/
15:48	sexpbot	<nawk> stuartsierra, that's what I &t, when I asked if it's a Java program :-)
15:49	gfrlog	I'm sure &t is an emoticon, but I don't know what for...
15:49	nawk	meant*
15:49	TimMc	Some regex engines use a bare ampersand to mean "include match here".
15:49	nawk	gfrlog: I was using the vim replacement, sorry my bad
15:49	gfrlog	nawk: I know; I was making a worthless joke
15:50	TimMc	Sed might not, or might want it escaped, or might use \0, etc.
15:50	TimMc	ah
15:50	gfrlog	TimMc: that right there is a good summary of why I can't ever figure out how to use a regex in bash
15:51	TimMc	I always have to build up my regexes a piece at a time because of that.
15:51	gfrlog	I just open up a ruby prompt most of the time
15:52	gfrlog	if that's not sufficient, I convince myself that I don't have to do whatever I was trying to do
15:57	tsdh	Hi. Does contains? only work with clojure data types? At least (contains? [(vertex g 1)] (vertex g 1)) ==> false
15:57	jweiss	you could make it work with other datatypes using protocols.
15:59	tsdh	jweiss: Ah, ok. I'll have a look at that. But IMHO at least its docstring should mention that it won't just work for anything.
15:59	tsdh	ah, everything.
15:59	TimMc	tsdh: contains? is a little weird I think
15:59	jweiss	tsdh: well, i am not sure how it works, but you'd at least have to have some kind of "equals" implemenntation
15:59	TimMc	&(contains? [3 4] 3)
15:59	sexpbot	⟹ false
16:00	TimMc	&(contains? [3 4] 0)
16:00	sexpbot	⟹ true
16:00	jweiss	wow that is weird
16:00	TimMc	tsdh, jweiss: It looks at keys, not vlues.
16:00	stuartsierra	"contains?" works on sets and maps, not sequences
16:00	jweiss	right, those are indexes
16:00	technomancy	should have been called contains-keys?, but too late for that now
16:00	stuartsierra	indeed
16:00	tsdh	Oh, that makes it clear.
16:01	tsdh	So what's the proper membership check for seqs?
16:01	jkkramer	,(some #{2} [1 2 3])
16:01	clojurebot	2
16:01	jweiss	i think you use some
16:02	tsdh	Oh, what an obvious name! :-)
16:02	TimMc	&(.contains [3 4] 3)
16:02	sexpbot	⟹ true
16:02	TimMc	&(.contains [3 4] 0)
16:02	sexpbot	⟹ false
16:02	TimMc	How about that?
16:03	gfrlog	(defn seq-has? [el coll] (boolean (some #{el} coll)))
16:04	nawk	okay, I see how it being a "platform for writing programs in java"
16:05	jweiss	how is it a platform for writing programs "in java"? You're not writing them in java :) you're writing them to be run on the jvm perhaps.
16:07	gfrlog	jweiss: I pointed that out too 10 minutes ago
16:08	jweiss	ah yes you did :)
16:09	jweiss	sorta like saying you're hiring a chinese translator so you can write letters to your chinese girlfriend in chinese.
16:09	gfrlog	that is a strange thing to say
16:10	jweiss	hehe
16:10	technomancy	except the word "java" means about 4 distinct things, including a stock ticker
16:10	jweiss	i suppose it could be put better than that
16:10	gfrlog	technomancy: very good.
16:10	gfrlog	I suppose we ought to stop using the word 'Java' then
16:10	gfrlog	what'll we call the language?
16:10	jweiss	yeah but "writing programs in java" narrows the meaning a bit
16:11	technomancy	true
16:11	jweiss	i think i'd name it "Ceremony"
16:11	gfrlog	church?
16:11	jweiss	church is good
16:12	jweiss	lots of repeating yourself in both
16:12	amalloy	TimMc: i think hava's regex flavor uses \0 as "include match here"
16:12	gfrlog	amalloy implicitely suggests calling it 'hava' apparently
16:12	amalloy	s/hava/\0(java)
16:12	sexpbot	<amalloy> TimMc: i think 0(java)'s regex flavor uses \0 as "include match here"
16:12	amalloy	damn
16:13	amalloy	s/damn/$0 it all
16:13	sexpbot	<amalloy> damn it all
16:13	TimMc	\o/
16:14	gfrlog	oh I have a name suggestion
16:14	gfrlog	Static Void
16:16	TimMc	>_<
16:16	dsantiago	Is there some way to prevent a symbol from being namespace resolved in a syntax-quote?
16:16	gfrlog	with ~' maybe?
16:17	amalloy	yeah that's the one
16:17	dsantiago	gfrlog, nope, fraid not.
16:17	gfrlog	amalloy endorsed it stronger than I did. it's his fault.
16:17	amalloy	dsantiago: gfrlog is totally right. if it isn't working you have some other issue
16:18	dsantiago	Hmkay.
16:18	amalloy	&`[a 'a ~'a]
16:18	sexpbot	⟹ [clojure.core/a (quote clojure.core/a) a]
16:18	dsantiago	So, if I have nested syntax-quotes, how do you make that work?
16:19	amalloy	&``~'~'a
16:19	sexpbot	⟹ (quote a)
16:19	amalloy	&``~~'a
16:19	sexpbot	⟹ a
16:19	gfrlog	my head is hurting
16:19	dsantiago	Ah, yes, there we go.
16:19	dsantiago	Thanks!
16:19	amalloy	$google macro writing macros amalloy
16:19	sexpbot	First out of 144 results is: Clojure: macro-writing macros
16:19	sexpbot	http://hubpages.com/hub/Clojure-macro-writing-macros
16:19	gfrlog	&``a
16:19	sexpbot	⟹ (quote clojure.core/a)
16:20	amalloy	dsantiago: my article on the topic. doesn't address your specific issue but is probably good reading anyway
16:20	gfrlog	&'`a
16:20	sexpbot	⟹ (quote clojure.core/a)
16:20	dsantiago	Yeah, I'll read this.
16:20	dsantiago	I was looking at the Clojure wikibook, which has some good explanation of syntax-quote and unquote.
16:21	amalloy	dsantiago: link? there are some things i have to puzzle out every time, like the order in which nested unquotes get resolved
16:22	dsantiago	amalloy: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_Clojure/Reader_Macros
16:23	gfrlog	hmmm...those references to core functions like (clojure/deref ...) should be (clojure.core/deref ...), right?
16:23	gfrlog	any reason I shouldn't change it?
16:23	gfrlog	I see it uses clojure.core down the page
16:24	amalloy	gfrlog: yeah, you probly should. though there's not much point; you could structure your requires so that `foo resolved to clojure/foo
16:24	gfrlog	yes
16:24	gfrlog	wait really?
16:25	gfrlog	the reader pays attention to your namespaces requires?
16:25	amalloy	&(require '[clojure.set :as set])
16:25	sexpbot	⟹ nil
16:26	amalloy	&(use 'clojure.set)
16:26	sexpbot	⟹ nil
16:26	amalloy	&`union
16:26	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.core/union
16:26	amalloy	hm
16:26	gfrlog	wait maybe I'm asking the wrong question...do these things get resolved to vars?
16:26	amalloy	&`intersection
16:26	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.core/intersection
16:26	gfrlog	I would think so....
16:26	TimMc	amalloy: Weird...
16:26	amalloy	i guess i can't make it work right
16:27	amalloy	i thought there was a way to do it, but i could be wrong
16:27	gfrlog	,(read-string "'a")
16:27	TimMc	&(require '[clojure.contrib.math :as m])
16:27	sexpbot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/math__init.class or clojure/contrib/math.clj on classpath:
16:27	clojurebot	(quote a)
16:27	gfrlog	,(read-string "`a")
16:27	clojurebot	(quote sandbox/a)
16:27	gfrlog	ooh interesting
16:27	gfrlog	&(read-string "`a")
16:27	sexpbot	⟹ (quote sandbox11264/a)
16:28	amalloy	gfrlog: syntax-quote necessarily has to be aware of your imports, otherwise it would turn `(reader f) into myns/reader instead of clojure.java.io/reader
16:28	gfrlog	but imports can be changed dynamically
16:28	TimMc	Whoa... I didn't realize the difference was important.
16:28	TimMc	I thought syntax-quote was just if you needed unquote.
16:29	gfrlog	TimMc: yep it's weird
16:29	amalloy	TimMc: that is the case in common lisp
16:29	TimMc	Ah, OK.
16:29	amalloy	clojure gives you namespace resolution and automatic gensyms in syntax-quote
16:29	TimMc	I learned PLT Scheme.
16:30	TimMc	Is Clojure different from most lisps in that regard?
16:30	amalloy	as far as i know, yes
16:31	TimMc	...and there it is on http://clojure.org/lisps, which I probably should re-read every week.
16:31	TimMc	"syntax-quote does symbol resolution, so `x is not the same as 'x"
16:31	TimMc	Should that be namespace resolution instead of symbol resolution?
16:32	TimMc	I don't think I would have understood it until today.
16:32	amalloy	TimMc: if there's a difference, it's not interesting enough to merit a change
16:33	gfrlog	how do you know it's not interesting if you don't know what the difference is?
16:33	amalloy	heh
16:33	TimMc	New approach: Read all those clojure.org pages, but this time stop and figure out anything I don't understand immediately.
16:34	amalloy	gfrlog: the resolution being talked about is "resolving symbols into namespaced symbols". both terms seem accurate to me
16:34	TimMc	"The read table is currently not accessible to user programs" <-- starting with that.
16:34	gfrlog	amalloy: very good
16:34	gfrlog	amalloy: I never should have said anything. I am ashamed.
16:35	TimMc	Is this talking about reader macros?
16:35	amalloy	TimMc: yeah
16:35	amalloy	i think so anyway
16:38	devn_	'lo all
16:38	fliebel	hi devn
16:38	devn_	oh no my nick changed so now i need to part and rejoin :(
16:39	amalloy	god i want (partial) and some sort of non-verbose map/array syntax in php please
16:40	fliebel	Hah! I found a way to make for parallel. I made the return value a anonymous function, and wrapped it in (pmap #(%)) :D
16:40	gfrlog	amalloy: write the clojure bootstrap code in PHP, complete the clojure-in-clojure project, and there you go
16:41	amalloy	gfrlog: pharen sounds like an easier approach
16:41	gfrlog	amalloy: ah, but first you would have to know that pharen exists!
16:41	fliebel	How does the future/agent threadpool work? Is it fixed at cores+x, or will it reach in the thousands if asked to?
16:41	amalloy	fliebel: send vs send-off
16:42	gfrlog	fliebel: I think it's fixed...cores+2 maybe?
16:42	fliebel	amalloy: I'm mainly concerned with future for now.
16:42	stuartsierra	fliebel: there are 2 thread pools
16:42	amalloy	the future pool is unbounded, agents have a fixed pool and a bounded one; pmap and friends make sure to create at most N futures at once
16:43	sritchie_	hugod: hey, I think I'm going to start working on this hadoop crate later today. I wanted to ask, though, have you used crane at all, or do you have some sense of what that project is trying to do that pallet can't?
16:43	sritchie_	pallet seems pretty mature
16:43	fliebel	stuartsierra: A post by raek suggest agent and send-off share pools, what is the other one?
16:44	stuartsierra	No, 'send' uses a fixed-size pool. 'send-off' and 'future' use an unbounded pool.
16:45	fliebel	oh, right...
16:46	hugod	sritchie_: I haven't spent much time with crane recently, so you'll have to ask a crane user :)
16:47	hugod	sritchie_: tbatchelli has been working on the hadoop crate
16:48	sritchie_	hugod: cool, didn't see his fork
16:48	nawk	Another noobish question, is there an open specification for the clojure language, so that others can use on platforms other than the jvm?
16:48	hugod	sritchie_ I don't think he has pushed his mods yet
16:48	nawk	s/use/write or implement/
16:48	sexpbot	<nawk> Another noobish question, is there an open specification for the clojure language, so that others can write or implement on platforms other than the jvm?
16:49	stuartsierra	nawk: not yet
16:49	stuartsierra	There is an active CLR/.NET port.
16:49	sritchie_	hugod: okay, maybe I'll send him a note, or wait to see what he's been working on
16:49	amac_	isn't there a clr version of clojure?
16:52	tbatchelli1	sritchie_, I will be trying to finish it up this weekend
16:53	fliebel	I've heard people consider languages without a formal spec immature :(
16:53	sritchie_	tbatchelli1: I'm new to pallet, but I'm at the point in my current project where I have a need to spin up a hadoop cluster, and log in to a repl on the master node
16:54	nawk	I am looking to learn my first functional language, at the moment comparing: haskell, racket, clojure, erlang. My prof keeps telling me about racket but I am thinking about going to something more popular like haskell
16:54	sritchie_	tbatchelli1: so! I'd love to help, if needed
16:54	nawk	what do you guys think?
16:54	TimMc	nawk: Clojure, duh. :-P
16:54	nawk	hah
16:54	amalloy	nawk: did you see the sign on the door when you came in?
16:54	TimMc	nawk: Racket is a pretty good first language.
16:54	tbatchelli1	sritchie_, I'll definitely need another pair of eyes on it
16:55	devn	fliebel: hola
16:55	dnolen	nawk: any of those 4 would be very good. haskell will probably be the most challenging by far.
16:55	tbatchelli1	sritchie_: I'll ping you when I have something relatively tested
16:55	fliebel	devn: olah, got your nick back?
16:55	devn	fliebel: indeed :)
16:55	devn	setting up my new nas...
16:55	sritchie_	tbatchelli1: great. I'll be here, or sritchie on github. following you now
16:57	nawk	TimMc: yea, he was showing me how I can construct my own language constructs (i.e., extending the language features) on the fly
16:57	TimMc	nawk: Who was?
16:58	ossareh	greets clojurians
17:00	fliebel	Final version, making for parallel: (apply concat (pmap #((apply juxt %)) (partition 32 (for))))
17:00	ossareh	TimMc: nawk's professor.
17:00	TimMc	ah
17:00	fliebel	Brouch time down from 227241 to 138864 :)
17:01	nawk	TimMc: nvm. I will go with racket if I find there are open projects out there that uses it. So far, I am getting the impression that the learning curve for haskell is steep, as the first functional language
17:01	dnolen	nawk: if you want to see someone who has really dived _deep_ into Haskell and Scheme, you should check this out: http://okmij.org/ftp/
17:01	TimMc	nawk: Racket (previously "PLT Scheme") is in pretty wide use in education and research.
17:01	TimMc	nawk: Big set of libs.
17:04	dnolen	these peeps seem to be doing commercial Racket work, http://untyped.com/
17:07	amalloy	man, who wrote this wikibooks stuff on reader macros? it's mostly accurate, but a lot of the english is mangled
17:10	nawk	dnolen: thanks. But I think I need to find a beginners/intro site on the fundamentals.
17:10	sritchie_	hugod, tbatchelli: are there any example crates that require a master node, and a number of slave nodes
17:10	sritchie_	?
17:11	nawk	the language (e.g.monad) used in that okmij site assumes prior knowledge
17:11	TimMc	nawk: htdp.org
17:12	dnolen	nawk: Haskell - Learn You a Haskell ..., Racket - How To Design Programs
17:13	TimMc	That book (free to read online) introduces structure-driven functional programming very nicely.
17:13	dsantiago	Anyone have any insight on how to make a zipper do a postorder tree walk instead of preorder?
17:14	nawk	TimMc: thanks. I was kinda overwhelmed with the wiki article on functional programming
17:14	dsantiago	I have the feeling I'm going to have to learn everything about zippers and write a new version of clojure.zip/next for myself.
17:15	nawk	dnolen: yo man, that "Learn you a haskell" site is exactly what I need
17:16	nawk	I was reading the wiki definition on Lambdas, and I was like "wtf"
17:16	TimMc	Wikipedia is terrible for stuff like this.
17:16	TimMc	It is basically written by aliens.
17:17	amalloy	TimMc: especially the wiki on unfold
17:17	nawk	hah
17:17	amalloy	it's so awful there's a note at the top "this article contains too much technical jargon"
17:18	nawk	amalloy, haha: it's another way of saying, "go away"
17:18	dnolen	nawk: I highly recommend picking up the Little Schemer / The Seasoned Schemer, the predecessor for tutorials that drop serious CS in an approachable cute fashion. Not available online, but well worth having a physical copy.
17:18	sritchie_	dnolen: seconded
17:18	amalloy	all this nonsense about hylomorphisms and catamorphisms
17:19	nawk	.dict hylomorphisms
17:19	amalloy	$dict hylomorphism
17:19	sexpbot	amalloy: noun: The doctrine that every physical substance is the sum of its component matter and the form taken by that matter.
17:20	TimMc	catamorphism: A cat-preserving operation.
17:24	sritchie_	hugod: do you have any recommendations for sample projects, pallet or otherwise, that require a master node, with access to a number of slave nodes?
17:24	sritchie_	hugod: I'm wondering how that would work with the converge command
17:24	hugod	sritchie_: I posted a very simple exampl on the mailing list today
17:25	hugod	sritchie_: also https://github.com/pallet/pallet-examples/tree/master/webapp-haproxy-nodes/
17:26	sritchie_	hugod: great, joined the mailing list. I'll look for that post
17:26	TimMc	Wikipedia's editor culture involves a serious obsession with jargon.
17:29	TimMc	Also, I should correct myself: It is not written by aliens, it is written for aliens.
17:29	amalloy	you're thinking aliens would put in some effort to translate?
17:31	nawk	TimMc: well, I want to learn something w/o being discouraged after reading the first paragraph
17:31	gfrlog	what's faster, a struct-map or a small vector?
17:31	gfrlog	or a cheetah?
17:32	TimMc	gfrlog: I can generally get a vector into bed faster than a small vector.
17:32	TimMc	s/small vector/struct-map/
17:32	sexpbot	<TimMc> gfrlog: I can generally get a vector into bed faster than a struct-map.
17:32	TimMc	I've never dated cheetahs.
17:34	TimMc	nawk: Are you familiar with algebraic data structures?
17:35	TimMc	nawk: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Algebraic_data_type
17:35	TimMc	gfrlog: Are you asking about creation, access, what?
17:35	nawk	TimMC: as in data structures that allow you to perform operations on?
17:35	nawk	for example, vector additons
17:35	nawk	?
17:35	gfrlog	TimMc: hmm. I guess destructuring and creating
17:36	gfrlog	say I'm doing something that would make sense as a struct-map, but I use a size-3 vector instead cause it's simpler to type
17:36	gfrlog	and am wondering if that's a bad idea performancewise
17:36	nawk	A=(1,2,3), B=(2,3,4); A+B = (3,5,7)
17:36	TimMc	nawk: Look at the link. It eventually wanders off into type theory, but the top of the article might be useful. You can use it as a way of reasoning about immutable data types.
17:37	TimMc	HTDP covers this a bit, but I don't think it explicitly uses the term "algebraic".
17:44	amalloy	gfrlog: i think it's probably faster to use the vector anyway, but seriously if there are three elements don't even worry about it
17:45	TimMc	gfrlog: Write whatever will introduce fewer bugs.
17:45	amalloy	also struct-maps are deprecated anyway. if you want convenience use maps or vectors; if you want performance use records. struct-maps are a compromise that is more appealing than useful
17:47	gfrlog	amalloy: good point
17:48	gfrlog	amalloy: the reason 3 elements makes me worry about it is because I saw an explanation of how vectors are implemented that makes me think some 32 slots are being created or something wasteful like that
17:48	amalloy	shrug 32 slots are indeed being created
17:49	amalloy	and the same will happen if you use a hash-map
17:49	gfrlog	struct-map has special slots though, doesn't it?
17:49	gfrlog	(and records?)
17:50	amalloy	probably, but i bet they also allocate an empty map to hold extra keys
17:50	gfrlog	amalloy: I'd hope they keep it null until you actually add something
17:50	amalloy	$source struct-map
17:50	sexpbot	struct-map is http://is.gd/u4dU5R
17:50	amalloy	(pardon me while i go digging)
17:51	gfrlog	I'll come too
17:52	amalloy	gfrlog: looks to me like it creates a persistentarraymap to hold the "special" slots
17:53	gfrlog	how are records implemented? actual classes with member variables?
17:53	amalloy	so, yes, there are special slots, but it doesn't allocate "exactly enough" to hold those either
17:53	amalloy	yes
17:54	gfrlog	that would be much faster, right?
17:54	amalloy	gfrlog: for creation or lookup?
17:54	gfrlog	yes
17:54	amalloy	the lookup is maybe three times faster
17:54	amalloy	last i checked
17:55	amalloy	creation probably is substantially faster
17:56	amalloy	oh, of course the faster lookup only applies if you type-hint your records and get at them with (.member obj) instead of (:member obj)
17:56	gfrlog	hmm
17:57	gfrlog	can you destructure a record like a map?
17:57	amac_	is there a performance benefit to using partial instead of a regular anonymous fn?
17:57	amalloy	gfrlog: yes. amac_: no, partial is slower
17:58	amalloy	gfrlog: but if you destructure the record like a map you get no performance benefits
17:59	gfrlog	yeah, that's what I figured
17:59	gfrlog	are records the ones with mutable fields?
17:59	gfrlog	I'm just going to go read the thing
18:00	hiredman	since partial doesn't close over values the compiler could in theory lift them into static methods
18:00	amac_	hmm, having a hard time seeing the usefulness... what's a good use case for partial? will partial return if enough (but not all) args are provided?
18:01	amalloy	hiredman: but partial will still have to call apply
18:02	gfrlog	amac_: http://twitter.com/gfrlog/status/38726503944552448
18:02	amac_	err, I guess partial doesn't have an arg arity, my question doesn't make sense - sry
18:03	amalloy	amac_: (partial + 10) is arguably easier to read than #(+ 10 %), and certainly easier than #(apply + 10 %&); you also can't nest #(...) forms
18:03	amac_	ooooooooooooooooooooooooh, thats how to nest #()
18:03	amac_	that is useful
18:03	hiredman	amalloy: the fn partial returns can be a multifn just like partial is so it doesn't have to apply for all arities
18:03	amalloy	hiredman: good point
18:04	gfrlog	amac_: when I want to nest #(), I use (fn [] ...) for the outer ones
18:04	amalloy	amac_: sunil wrote a version of partial that does have fixed arity, and returns a further partial if you don't pass it enough args
18:05	amac_	gfrlog: still trying to wrap my head around your tweet
18:06	gfrlog	amac_: it is short for:
18:06	gfrlog	(defn generate-unique-id []
18:06	gfrlog	(let [a (atom 0)]
18:07	gfrlog	(swap! a inc)))
18:07	gfrlog	the atom is used to keep track of the last id returned
18:08	tomoj	that doesn't look very useful :)
18:08	amac_	it is beautifully short
18:08	gfrlog	tomoj: why not?
18:08	tomoj	&(repeatedly 10 #(let [a (atom 0)] (swap! a inc)))
18:08	sexpbot	⟹ (1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1)
18:08	_ulises	you're always inc'ing 0
18:09	_ulises	^^^ that
18:09	amalloy	uh
18:09	gfrlog	I may have mistyped something
18:09	gfrlog	I know the tweet version works
18:09	gfrlog	oh yes I remember
18:09	amalloy	gfrlog: you nested your scopes wrong
18:09	gfrlog	amalloy: yup
18:09	amalloy	(let [a (atom 0)] (defn ...))
18:09	gfrlog	my apologies to all
18:09	gfrlog	that's what I get for writing code directly into IRC off the top of my head
18:10	amac_	the tweet works
18:10	amac_	:)
18:10	gfrlog	yeah I checked that before tweeting it :)
18:10	tomoj	using partial there is neat
18:11	gfrlog	sometimes things get crazy short but you can't see how to do it until you cross your eyes
18:13	Raynes	ohpauleez: https://gist.github.com/855885 :p
18:16	gfrlog	where does the clojure community stand on comma usage?
18:16	gfrlog	I like using them in any context with implicit pairs
18:17	ohpauleez	Raynes: haha, sounds good
18:17	tomoj	gfrlog: e.g. in let-bindings?
18:17	amalloy	gfrlog: there's a reason they're optional. you use them where you want em
18:18	technomancy	gfrlog: not really necessary if you have each pair on a separate line. on the same line I could go for it though.
18:18	amalloy	i usually write my code with spaces and then s/ /,/g so that nobody else can read it
18:19	gfrlog	tomoj: that's one example; also maps
18:19	gfrlog	technomancy: true
18:20	amac_	,(map,#(char(+(int%)1))[a,b,c])
18:20	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
18:20	amac_	fuck spaces.
18:20	amalloy	amac_: int%
18:20	gfrlog	yeah NASA is so 20th century
18:20	amalloy	still needs a separator
18:21	amac_	,(map,#(char(+(int%)1)"abc")
18:21	clojurebot	EOF while reading
18:21	amac_	goddam brackets
18:21	amalloy	&(let [int% (constantly 10)] (#(int%)10))
18:21	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires an even number of forms in binding vector
18:21	amalloy	whoa really? i could swear % was legal in symbols
18:21	amalloy	&'int%
18:21	sexpbot	⟹ int
18:22	amac_	,(map,#(char(+(int%)1))"abc")
18:22	clojurebot	(\b \c \d)
18:22	amac_	theeeeeeeeeeeeeeere we go
18:24	gfrlog	amalloy: maybe it got added in edge-clojure along with the apostrophes?
18:24	amac_	all that to say the application of whitespace is very liberal in clojure, and its easy to make things ugly
18:24	gfrlog	I realized a bit ago that being a programmer has completely changed my mental bindings for the ' character
18:25	amalloy	&((fn[[?<&,%+,$\|]](?<&,%+,$\|))({[^:<?>,'$][+(+()())(,3())]}['$]))
18:25	sexpbot	⟹ 5
18:25	gfrlog	from an apostraphe to a single-quote
18:25	amalloy	amac_: stolen from fliebel and chouser several weeks ago
18:25	gfrlog	apostrophe*
18:25	amac_	that code?
18:25	amalloy	yeah
18:26	amac_	I came up with that ugliness independently, I was going to put it on the back of an ipod
18:27	amac_	nifty way to do a rot13 that no one would understand
18:29	amac_	oh jesus, I didn't see the code you posted
18:30	amac_	that is... special
18:31	amalloy	heh
18:31	amalloy	want to decompose it yourself, or shall i tell you what i discovered it to boil down to?
18:32	amac_	I'm trying to figure it out
18:32	amac_	it hurts
18:34	TimMc	amalloy: You cheated, there's a 3 in there!
18:34	TimMc	(Or they did, rather.)
18:35	amalloy	TimMc: i think representing 3 without any numbers would have made it a little too clear what the rest of the code was doing :P
18:35	TimMc	,(+()()(*))
18:35	clojurebot	3
18:35	amalloy	indeed
18:44	amac_	ok i'm stuck
18:45	amalloy	amac_: hints are $1.50
18:45	TimMc	amac_: Mind if I post a version without gratuitous use of weird characters in symbols?
18:45	amalloy	TimMc: just gist it
18:45	amalloy	then he can follow if he wants
18:45	TimMc	Oh, wait, I shouldn't step on amalloy's profits.
18:45	amalloy	(as can any lurkers)
18:49	TimMc	https://gist.github.com/855925
18:50	amalloy	chuckle
18:57	gfrlog	$findfn [5 4 3 2] [5 4 3]
18:57	sexpbot	[clojure.core/butlast clojure.core/drop-last clojure.core/pop]
18:57	gfrlog	$findfn (list 5 4 3 2) (list 5 4 3)
18:57	sexpbot	[clojure.core/butlast clojure.core/drop-last]
18:57	gfrlog	I support abbreviating butlast to blast
18:58	amac_	(I snuck a look at TimMc's code snippet
18:59	TimMc	Help, I'm trapped in a sexpr!
18:59	amac_	curious why the fn ignores the first and last element of the vector without looking like fn [_ [a b c] _] ...
18:59	amalloy	))))
18:59	amac_	)
18:59	gfrlog	oh that's what sexpbot means...
19:00	gfrlog	I guess I'm an adult now
19:00	amalloy	heh
19:00	amalloy	given the Common-Lisp convention of using p instead of ? (eg listp), i've always been baffled by the survival of the term sexp
19:01	amac_	sexpression doesn't really roll off the toungue
19:01	amalloy	even s-exp
19:01	amalloy	would be fine
19:02	technomancy	I've seen sexpr
19:02	TimMc	"secks-per"
19:02	shachaf	amalloy: And not loop?
19:02	TimMc	"ess-expression"
19:02	amalloy	technomancy: sure, or sexpr
19:02	amalloy	shachaf: that one doesn't really stand out to me cause we americans never talk about the loo
19:02	gfrlog	how about 'the-birds-and-the-bees-pression'
19:03	amalloy	plus loop is an actual word already unlike sexp
19:03	TimMc	(sexp) => 't
19:03	shachaf	sexp is an actual word in a LISPer's vocabulary. Hence its survival. :-)
19:06	amac_	oooooooooooooooooooooooooh, I get how its pulling the val out now
19:06	amac_	stupid useless meta
19:06	TimMc	haha
19:07	TimMc	Metadata is orthogonal to comparison semantics!
19:07	gfrlog	does clojure.test have an assertion that an expression doesn't throw an exception?
19:08	TimMc	gfrlog: What's the point?
19:08	TimMc	Oh, clojure.test
19:08	TimMc	Well, same question.
19:08	amalloy	gfrlog: if an exception is thrown, the test will fail. why declare it?
19:09	gfrlog	amalloy: that there is a good point.
19:09	TimMc	There's a way to fail if an exception wasn't thrown.
19:09	gfrlog	I guess the purpose of the test is clearer
19:09	gfrlog	if I say (is (happy-times))
19:09	gfrlog	it looks like I expect (happy-times) to return true
19:09	gfrlog	when really I'm just checking that it doesn't throw anything
19:10	TimMc	No need for (is ...)
19:10	gfrlog	(deftest happy-times-test (happy-times)) ?
19:10	amalloy	TimMc: i think the "is" counts as an assertion for the summary
19:10	TimMc	Should work.
19:10	gfrlog	hmm
19:10	TimMc	Ah, good point.
19:11	amalloy	(deftest happy-times-no-exception (happy-times))
19:11	gfrlog	very good
19:11	amalloy	i think you actually don't want the (is), because then if happy-times returns false or nil you'll fail
19:12	TimMc	(defmacro succeed [&exprs] `(do ~@exprs (is true)))
19:12	gfrlog	amalloy: right
19:12	gfrlog	TimMc: nice
19:12	amalloy	nice, though i'd do (is (do ~@exprs true))
19:12	gfrlog	are there any crypto wrapper libraries for clojure?
19:13	TimMc	amalloy: Good call.
19:13	tomoj	testing that code doesn't throw an exception seems strange
19:13	TimMc	I think c.test also tells you how many test forms were run as well.
19:13	gfrlog	tomoj: yes, I was surprised to even hear myself ask
19:13	TimMc	I wouldn't actually use that succeed macro myself.
19:13	tomoj	maybe if it's hard to actually test the code?
19:14	gfrlog	tomoj: I think that's why I did it; heavily iterated numerical stuff
19:14	TimMc	Ran 28 tests containing 72 assertions. 0 failures, 0 errors.
19:14	tomoj	or if all the code does is conditionally throw an exception?
19:14	gfrlog	where the easiest way to get the expected value is to just run the code I just wrote anyhow
19:14	tomoj	...huh?!
19:14	tomoj	oh
19:14	tomoj	right :)
19:16	gfrlog	I repeat my crypto question in case it got lost up there: any wrapper crypto libraries for clojure?
19:16	gfrlog	would such a thing be appreciated if it doesn't currently exist?
19:16	gfrlog	clojure.contrib.crypto?
19:16	clojurebot	compiling clojure is rarely necessary to do yourself.
19:18	TimMc	clojurebot: That was... cryptic.
19:18	clojurebot	Pardon?
19:18	amac_	BCrypt everything
19:18	TimMc	gfrlog: What crypto primitives do you plan on using?
19:19	amac_	jBCrypt exists, perhaps sexifying a library for it
19:19	gfrlog	hashing personally; but I would think symmetric and asymmetric algs would be useful too
19:22	TimMc	What kind of hashing?
19:22	TimMc	MD5? SHA256?
19:22	gfrlog	yes, that sort of thing
19:23	tomoj	I'd mostly appreciate the byte-array->hex-string function I'd expect to find there
19:23	tomoj	hashing is easy
19:23	swart	formatting strings isn't too hard either
19:23	gfrlog	tomoj: I'd appreciate two functions -- one that returns byte arrays, one that returns hex-string, and both taking any reasonable kind of argument and doing reasonable things with them
19:24	gfrlog	on that note, it's not-being-on-irc-anymore-time
19:25	tomoj	formatting strings?
19:27	swart	I mean is a wrapper library really necessary? there's a ton of stuff for java out there. if all you want to do is convert a byte-array to a hex string, how much code would it take?
19:29	TimMc	There's a small but annoying amount of Java verbosity involved in getting a simple hash.
19:29	tomoj	mine is about 7 lines, slow, stupid, and ugly
19:31	johnmn3	DAE type out a really long function or set of functions, run it, and the get really suprised when it works the first time... and you didn't even have to debug it?
19:31	Thamster_	and then 2 months later you realize there was a logical error not a compiler error in it?
19:32	Thamster_	just kidding
19:32	Thamster_	hey clojurerers
19:32	Thamster_	riddle me this
19:32	TimMc	"Parameter declaration clojure.core/deref should be a vector"
19:32	Thamster_	how do i write the following lisp expression in clojure
19:32	TimMc	^ ...why is Clojure suddenly dying when trying to compile my code?
19:33	Thamster_	(DEFINE SQUARE (LAMBDA(x) (* x x)))
19:33	johnmn3	(def square (fn [x] (* x x)))
19:33	amac_	(defn square [x] (* x x))
19:33	Thamster_	must there be the square brackets?
19:33	johnmn3	yea
19:34	Thamster_	i know there are like 10 different define macros
19:34	johnmn3	binding forms use a vector [...]
19:34	Thamster_	oh :(
19:34	TimMc	Thamster_: Clojure has reader support for (lists), [vectors], and {maps}
19:34	Thamster_	i guess these aren't my father's parentheses
19:34	TimMc	...and uses them syntactically.
19:34	johnmn3	it actually makes it easier to read, I think.
19:34	amac_	,(#(* % %) 3)
19:35	TimMc	clojurebot: ping?
19:35	amac_	that doesn't use square brackets
19:35	TimMc	&(#(* % %) 3)
19:35	sexpbot	⟹ 9
19:35	amac_	did I kill clojurebot?!
19:36	Thamster_	haha , it was like hey no square brackets … forget this!
19:36	johnmn3	yea, you could use:
19:36	Thamster_	amac_: was hoping to define something to use later though
19:36	johnmn3	(def square #(* % %))
19:36	Thamster_	aha!
19:36	Thamster_	now we're talking
19:37	johnmn3	little sugar
19:37	amac_	square brackets are part of a healthy diet
19:37	Thamster_	thanks johnmn3
19:37	johnmn3	little non-fat sweetner
19:37	tomoj	TimMc: something like (defn foo @bar) ?
19:37	TimMc	Thamster_: More importantly, Clojure has abstract notions of "collection" and "sequence" which accept maps, lists, vectors, whatever.
19:38	TimMc	tomoj: Why do I want that?
19:38	tomoj	you don't
19:38	tomoj	I meant, something like that would cause your error
19:39	TimMc	Oh!
19:39	TimMc	Thanks, now I understand the error message.
19:39	Thamster_	hey johnmn3 how would i do the same for multiple params?
19:39	amalloy	Thamster_: #(* %1 %2). but omg don't :P
19:39	tomoj	&'@foo
19:39	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.core/deref foo)
19:40	Thamster_	amalloyirc of course not , scouts honor
19:40	johnmn3	(def mulitply #(* %1 %2))
19:40	Thamster_	honour*
19:41	johnmn3	it's much better to do:
19:41	johnmn3	(defn multiply [x y] (* x y))
19:42	Thamster_	yeah i just don't think i'm ready for square brackets
19:43	amalloy	haha
19:43	Thamster_	i'm going through a lisp tutorial and clojure is way easier to install and square brackets diverge too far from the examples
19:43	TimMc	I'm writing a HOF that takes a function of Point2D->Point2D and composes it like (comp vtow f vtow) with functions that take a point between world and view coordinates.
19:43	amalloy	TimMc: do you mean for one of those to be wtov?
19:44	TimMc	amalloy: yup
19:44	TimMc	What's a good way to name this function?
19:44	TimMc	I'd love to use something like pt-op%view
19:44	tomoj	I was thinking about functions like that earlier with (comp char inc int)
19:45	tomoj	feels like elegance lurking out of my reach
19:45	TimMc	:-)
19:45	johnmn3	like what?
19:45	johnmn3	whats that do?
19:46	TimMc	It's like you're transforming the function from one vector space to another, to use a linear algebra comparison.
19:46	amalloy	it kinda feels like there is a monad underneath all this
19:46	TimMc	heh
19:46	tomoj	I was thinking of haskell too
19:46	amalloy	somewhere
19:47	amalloy	johnmn3: he has a function that operates on...ip addresses, say
19:47	tomoj	I guess what bothers me is that the concept of going into a new space and back isn't really encoded there
19:47	amalloy	and he has functions for converting between IPs and domain names
19:47	tomoj	the two functions on either side could be anything
19:48	amalloy	and he wants to make a version of his function that works with domain names, by converting to an IP, running the existing function, then going back to a domain name
19:48	TimMc	Oh man! I've already got functions to take both locations and offsets to and from view coords... why not also take functions to and from?
19:48	TimMc	Sounds like I need multimethods
19:48	johnmn3	oh
19:48	amalloy	except his actual use case involves math
19:48	johnmn3	,((comp char inc int) /3)
19:49	tomoj	then, what, dispatch based on whether its view or world?
19:49	johnmn3	&((comp char inc int) /3)
19:49	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: /3
19:49	johnmn3	&((comp char inc int) \3)
19:49	sexpbot	⟹ \4
19:49	johnmn3	is what I meant
19:49	TimMc	&((comp char inc int) \space)
19:49	sexpbot	⟹ \!
19:49	johnmn3	I like it
19:50	johnmn3	But it feels like threading
19:50	TimMc	tomoj: Dispatch on what kind of thing I am manipulating: Point, Vector, or function.
19:50	tomoj	oh :/
19:50	TimMc	I really want to annotate points and such with which coordinate system they are in.
19:51	tomoj	been thinking about stuff like that too, with minecraft's 4 or so coordinate systems
19:51	tomoj	don't see an elegant way to deal with it
19:51	tomoj	also sparse vs dense vectors
19:51	TimMc	That's just me being Java-ish, though. I'd notice right away if I were using view coordinates in a world-expecting function.
19:51	tomoj	maybe not so bad with only two representations but with 4 my ideas are all messy
19:52	TimMc	tomoj: Not familiar with Minecraft. Is there a canonical world coordinate frame?
19:52	TimMc	If not, pick one.
19:52	tomoj	that might work
19:53	tomoj	basically did that with my sparse vs dense vectors too, the result being that as soon as you add, you get dense, which is unacceptable
19:53	amac_	Minecraft is an amazing timesink
19:55	TimMc	lolwut... I just reworked my code so that I can drag the canvas, not just elements on it... and the canvas dragging works fine, but somehow the elements are now being dragged in the wrong direction.
19:55	gregh	subtraction is hard, use addition instead :)
19:56	TimMc	I'm using addition in both places!
19:56	amac_	then you're adding wrong.
19:56	TimMc	(loc-from-view (pt+ (loc-to-view old) delta))
19:57	TimMc	where delta is (pt-diff cur old)
20:04	amalloy	TimMc: different coordinate system for points within the canvas and whatever the canvas is sitting on?
20:05	TimMc	amalloy: I should clarify -- I do not actually drag the canvas, I drag the viewpoint that the canvas displays.
20:06	TimMc	I think I just have to sit back and work out what I want to happen.
20:11	TimMc	In paredit, how do I kill just the next form?
20:11	amalloy	C-M-k
20:11	amalloy	(which is actually a plain emacs binding, whether or not you have paredit on)
20:11	TimMc	Great, thanks.
20:11	TimMc	understood
20:12	amalloy	(all this has the fun side effect that you can use it when editing, say, PHP or XML too)
20:13	johnmn3	so...
20:14	johnmn3	I'm trying to write a follow up to my blog post, but I need to squeeze some more performance out first.
20:15	TimMc	What is the post on?
20:15	johnmn3	http://sexp.posterous.com/a-whole-lotta-automata
20:15	johnmn3	the follow up is about using parallel to make it go faster
20:15	amalloy	oh cool, i remember reading that
20:15	johnmn3	yea, automata is a fun topic
20:15	amac_	plz ping when updated
20:16	johnmn3	but at the end, I show where I'm experimenting with pmap, etc.. and I'm not really getting any major performance jumps
20:17	johnmn3	you'd think an automaton would be a simple case where it's easy to break the problem down into smaller pieces, but I'm not sure why it's not making a difference.
20:18	amalloy	johnmn3: the pieces are probably too small
20:18	TimMc	I'm not sure how parallelism would help here.
20:18	TimMc	What amalloy said.
20:18	amalloy	it costs resources to start up a new thread, to glue together the results of N threads...
20:18	johnmn3	100,000 items, split 10 ways
20:18	TimMc	With a really large world, vector computing might help, though.
20:19	johnmn3	10,000 items per thread
20:19	amalloy	even so, the time to do 10k arithmetic operations doesn't seem very large
20:19	amalloy	syscalls are expensive
20:19	amalloy	but i could be wrong
20:19	johnmn3	I've tried 10,000,000
20:19	johnmn3	and 100,000,000, split 10 ways, 4 ways, 100 ways
20:20	amalloy	huh
20:21	johnmn3	chunkify takes the horizontal state string and splits it according to your desired chunk size
20:21	TimMc	johnmn3: How long does it take for one iteration, no parallelism?
20:21	TimMc	with 100M
20:22	johnmn3	mmm. give me a few minutes.. I'll spin the project up.
20:23	tomoj	you parallelize for each iteration separately?
20:24	TimMc	tomoj: Each column depends on the last value of its neighbors.
20:24	TimMc	*values
20:24	johnmn3	I take a whole time step (say, 10,000,000 wide) and break it into large chunks, then pmap over that
20:25	DespiteItAll	I still don't see how that would be enough cpu time to make pmap worth it
20:25	tomoj	and then combine all the answers into one big vector and repeat?
20:26	DespiteItAll	but hard numbers would definitely help
20:26	johnmn3	tomoj: right
20:26	tomoj	vectors aren't good at combining :(
20:27	amalloy	tomoj: yeah, but to get the random access later surely it's worth it
20:27	DespiteItAll	might be better to work with lists, stitch them together, then convert to vector
20:27	DespiteItAll	how long does that conversion take anyway?
20:27	johnmn3	well, if 10,000 items take 1 second under non-parallel conditions, should 100,000 items still take 10 seconds (with 10,000 item chunks) if paralleled?
20:27	tomoj	seems like there's got to be a better way given the problem
20:28	tomoj	don't really need random access, do you?
20:28	johnmn3	lists got slower for me.
20:28	amalloy	yeah, i was thinking about that too tomoj
20:28	johnmn3	forgot why, cause I'm conjing, or something
20:28	amalloy	you could maybe memoize a lookup-in-previous-list
20:28	amalloy	to let you keep working with vectors
20:29	amalloy	er, work with lists but get fastish access
20:29	johnmn3	memoizing shouldn't help, if the input is seamingly random.
20:30	johnmn3	for the whitespace on the sides, it'd help.
20:30	johnmn3	if the cache lookup is faster than an 8 element hash-map
20:30	amalloy	johnmn3: to look up element 100000 in a list, you have to look up items 1-99999
20:30	amalloy	so memoizing could help
20:30	johnmn3	?
20:31	amalloy	suppose you didn't convert to a vector at all
20:31	johnmn3	nth on a vector is faster than a list, right?
20:31	TimMc	johnmn3: Have you explored whether transients are any faster?
20:31	amalloy	johnmn3: of course
20:31	amalloy	but creating the vector is crazy slow
20:31	johnmn3	TimMc: I should
20:32	amalloy	and if you could simulate random access on a list by memoizing, building up a vector-ish thing as you go, it might be faster
20:32	johnmn3	what do you mean by using memoize?
20:32	dnolen	johnmn3: have you tried using a JVM profiler ?
20:33	johnmn3	dnolen: no, not yet. I should though.
20:33	amalloy	johnmn3: (def get-nth-subseq (memoize #(nth % previous-generation)))
20:34	amalloy	except that instead of using nth, you (a) find the furthest into the list you've looked so far and start from there, and (b) return a whole subseq, not just a single element
20:34	dnolen	johnmn3: yup. Otherwise you just end up guessing.
20:35	johnmn3	what is memoize returning there?
20:35	johnmn3	what are the chances you have the same data?
20:36	amalloy	johnmn3: it's starting to feel like getting my point across is not worth the effort given that i don't actually know this will help
20:37	tomoj	I've got one agent with always nil state which dispatches to itself with a delay. seems silly. better way?
20:37	johnmn3	amalloy: there might be a way to treat the data more like a stream
20:44	johnmn3	almost up with the project, had to pull it down on this new vm
21:08	TimMc	Haha, my subtraction was backwards... but my intuition regarding viewpoint dragging was also backwards... I think.
21:11	tomoj	but they didn't cancel out?
21:11	TimMc	tomoj: They canceled out for the canvas dragging, sure.
21:11	TimMc	viwpoint dragging, excuse me
21:11	TimMc	But any time I tried to drag an object in the view, it moved in opposition!
21:12	TimMc	(Whereas befor my edits, they hadn't.)
21:14	TimMc	OK, beautiful.
21:17	gfrlog	,(((constantly constantly) constantly) constantly)
21:20	gfrlog	&(((constantly constantly) constantly) constantly)
21:20	sexpbot	⟹ #<core$constantly$fn__3551 clojure.core$constantly$fn__3551@1182c98>
21:21	johnmn3	does anyone know how to read the output of visualvm?
21:21	johnmn3	I have an overview tab, monitor tab, threads tab, sampler tab, and a profiler tab.
21:23	dnolen	johnmn3: you'll probably want to profile the CPU
21:23	johnmn3	under the sampler tab, org.netbeans.lib.profiler.server.ProfileServer.notifyClientOnResultsAvailability () is taking up 97.4% of the time
21:24	johnmn3	under the Profiler tab, java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run () is taking up 85% of the time.
21:25	johnmn3	looks like there are only 2 thread pools too
21:31	johnmn3	running again. Does it sound wrong that 95% cpu time is spent in java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run ?
21:37	johnmn3	strange
21:37	johnmn3	running non-parallel now. sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPTransport$ConnectionHandler.run = 75% now
21:38	johnmn3	and clojure.lang.LineNumberingPushbackReader.read = 18%
21:38	johnmn3	it's using boxed Numbers.add and Numbers.Lt too
21:41	DespiteItAll	I think you have to ignore the rmi stuff. I think that's an artifact of the profiling.
21:43	johnmn3	okay. and I see now that adding profiling causes the program to take around 1100 to 1200% longer
21:43	johnmn3	so don't user large numbers
21:44	DespiteItAll	yeah, it's more about relative times. Boxed arithmetic is an easy target to eliminate.
21:44	johnmn3	but for some reason, the automaton is thrashing hard on the LineNumberingPushbackReader
21:44	johnmn3	is that an artifact?
21:44	DespiteItAll	That's interesting
21:45	johnmn3	98% on the last go round
21:45	DespiteItAll	let me look at your code again, I have no idea where that would be coming from
21:45	DespiteItAll	you're using visualvm?
21:45	johnmn3	yea
21:45	DespiteItAll	you can take a snapshot, then look to see where in your code that's getting called
21:46	DespiteItAll	it's like snapshot -> hotspots -> call trace, I think.
21:46	johnmn3	there's code up here: git://github.com/johnmn3/automata.git
21:49	DespiteItAll	what function are you profiling?
21:51	TimMc	tomoj, johnmn3, amalloy: I ende up defining "isomap" <https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/blob/master/src/timmcHW3/utils.clj#L88-92> for that isomorphic transform HOF. Very simple, but it seems useful.
21:51	tomoj	clojure for your homework? lucky
21:52	TimMc	indeed
21:52	TimMc	Choice of languages.
21:52	amalloy	tomoj: he just names his programs cryptic numbers so that it looks like they're homework
21:52	TimMc	Here's an example of usage: https://github.com/timmc/CS4300-HW3/blob/master/src/timmcHW3/core.clj#L439
21:52	johnmn3	I don't know what I'm doing. I just launched visualvm, then did a lein repl, load-file, (ns automata.par), and ran some tests on par and non-par... visualvm sees the application start up and I just open it from there and view it.. not sure how to do more specific profiling yet
21:53	DespiteItAll	right, I'm just wondering what exactly you ran when you saw all that pushbackreader activity
21:53	johnmn3	oh, sec
21:54	tomoj	load-file would be an understandable culprit
21:54	tomoj	only if that's about all you were profiling..
21:54	johnmn3	(def initial-conditions (core/make-initial-conditions 10000))
21:54	johnmn3	load-file doesn't run anything automatically
21:54	johnmn3	(time (take 20
21:54	johnmn3	(drop 490
21:54	johnmn3	(last
21:54	johnmn3	(core/run-steps 10 rules/rule-90-stepper initial-conditions)))))
21:56	johnmn3	does anyone think it would be a bad idea to farm the chunks in the par version out to agents? isn't the same thing going on with pmap anyway?
21:56	DespiteItAll	it's really helpful to understand what pmap is doing, where its weaknesses are, etc
21:57	johnmn3	with pmap, I was seeing 2 threadpools with around 50 to 100 threads at any given time, each
21:57	DespiteItAll	this talk helped me a log http://clojure.blip.tv/file/4645227/
21:57	DespiteItAll	lot
21:57	johnmn3	I thought it used fixed size threadpools
21:58	DespiteItAll	and made me wish the fork-join stuff was mainlined already
21:58	johnmn3	yea, I watched that. It was quasi-inspirational for me to delve into par for this automaton
21:58	DespiteItAll	Yeah, I saw the same thing with pmap. When you're consuming as much as you can, it just spawns threads like crazy
21:58	DespiteItAll	that's contrary to every description I'd read of it
21:59	johnmn3	yea, I thought I read that it uses a fixed size thread pool.. rather, it looks like a fixed number of threadpools
21:59	amac_	n
21:59	johnmn3	and I have a quad-core intel = 8 visible threads to the OS.. and only 2 threadpools?
22:00	DespiteItAll	i think the number should be procs + 2
22:01	johnmn3	I wonder if the threadpool is jacking me up though.. cause I've seen all 8 OS procs pinged out when running pmap over the automaton, while looking at window's task manager.
22:01	johnmn3	erm, s/threadpool/profiler
22:01	amalloy	johnmn3: if you actually wait on the pmapped list entry there should be a fixed number of them
22:02	amalloy	but if you consume them all and then wait on them all, it can't help but give you loads of future objects
22:03	DespiteItAll	my conclusion is that it's difficult to use pmap correctly
22:03	amalloy	not sure if that's your issue as i haven't looked at the code, but it seems worth mentioning
22:03	johnmn3	amalloy: not sure if I understand. say I have a 1000 item set, I break that into 100 item sets, in a 10 item set. If I pmap across that, the function should be applied to 100 items, for each thread in parallel, right?
22:04	johnmn3	not "set" in the clojure.set sense
22:04	johnmn3	a vector
22:04	amalloy	johnmn3: you were asking about having too many active futures, where you expected a fixed threadpool
22:04	johnmn3	k
22:05	amalloy	(vec (pmap foo (range 1000))) has to return to you a vector of 1000 (future ...) objects
22:05	amalloy	and futures run on an unbounded pool
22:05	TimMc	I'd like to dispatch on arity & type -- any easy way?
22:06	johnmn3	TimMc: dispatch on function with multi-methods
22:06	amalloy	if you instead did something like (let [results (pmap foo (range 1000))] (doseq [x results] @x) results) i think you would have far fewer actually-active threads at once
22:06	TimMc	johnmn3: I know about multimethods but I'm not sure what you're saying.
22:07	johnmn3	amalloy: how many futures result from (vec (pmap foo [(range 1000) (range 1000)])) ?
22:07	TimMc	Wait... can the dispatch function... count the args?
22:07	amalloy	2
22:07	johnmn3	TimMc: what ever you want it to do, it's a function
22:07	TimMc	fascinating
22:08	TimMc	Alas! I want a different return type on one of these. Oh well.
22:08	johnmn3	amalloy: so that's what I'm doing.. I'll take a 1000,000 element sequence and split it ten ways, then pmap on it.. should that spawn 10 threads?
22:08	amalloy	heh. multi-methods, the fantastic clojure construct that allows any logic in the dispatcher...except arithmetic!
22:08	amalloy	johnmn3: yeah, sounds like ten to me
22:09	johnmn3	right, that's not what I'm seeing. it's strange
22:11	johnmn3	what do the different colors of the threads mean in visualvm? yellow, red, green..
22:12	DespiteItAll	should be a key there. active, waiting, sleeping
22:12	amalloy	they're like bananas: yellow ones are ripe; the green ones you should leave on the tree for a while
22:12	johnmn3	:)
22:12	DespiteItAll	red is what the hell kinda banana do you have
22:12	amalloy	indeed!
22:13	johnmn3	so, I think the LineNumberingPushbackReader is just the repl sitting idle
22:13	DespiteItAll	heh
22:13	DespiteItAll	I think you may be tracing the wrong process?
22:13	DespiteItAll	are there two clojure processes?
22:13	johnmn3	what do you mean? no, just one
22:14	johnmn3	and jline.consoleRunner
22:14	DespiteItAll	Ok, that must just be how I launch mine
22:14	amalloy	that's part of some comedy sketch i remember. bananas are like traffic lights but the numbers mean different things: "Green means whoa, slow down a little; Yellow is yeah, go right ahead; Red means where the hell you get that banana from"
22:14	DespiteItAll	I think it's vimclojure doing it
22:14	DespiteItAll	Mitch Hedberg, RIP
22:14	johnmn3	whats it doing?
22:14	DespiteItAll	"My buddy asked me if I wanted a frozen banana, I said no, but I want a regular banana later, so yes"
22:15	amalloy	DespiteItAll: oh, neat. i never actually heard his show; someone just told me a couple of the funny bits
22:15	DespiteItAll	oh god, find his cd's ASAP. best show i've ever been to.
22:17	johnmn3	deref takes up 0.3% cpu time
22:17	amalloy	er, looks
22:17	johnmn3	it's all the same in cyberspace
22:17	clojurebot	9
22:17	johnmn3	all character strings
22:18	amalloy	thanks clojurebot
22:18	amalloy	i wasn't sure what number was most appropriate for this conversation but you've cleared it all up
22:18	DespiteItAll	heheh
22:18	TimMc	lol
22:18	TimMc	^ I only say that when it's true.
22:18	johnmn3	DespiteItAll: I never found a "hotspot" option
22:19	DespiteItAll	Hrm, just a sec
22:19	DespiteItAll	did you take a snapshot?
22:19	TimMc	clojurebot: testing42 is <reply>42
22:19	TimMc	yada testing42 yada
22:19	amalloy	TimMc: he doesn't jump on every message
22:19	johnmn3	hmm. KirinDave's irc client is hosted on amazonaws.com? DespiteItAll: yea, then what?
22:19	amalloy	~testing42
22:19	amalloy	testing42?
22:20	amalloy	meh whatever
22:20	TimMc	I wonder what it triggered on.
22:20	amalloy	TimMc: he's set to trigger randomly
22:20	johnmn3	42
22:20	amalloy	in addition to some specific intentional triggers
22:20	TimMc	And just spew random?
22:20	amalloy	well i didn't write it obviously, but my understanding is he interprets 0.5% of all messages as if they were addressed to him
22:21	amalloy	and does his best to answer them
22:21	johnmn3	clojurebot: what?
22:21	TimMc	weird
22:22	TimMc	#apache, last time i was there, had an amazing helper bot.
22:22	TimMc	"fajita" would answer about 25% of the questions that people would come in to ask
22:22	TimMc	I think most of them never knew it was a bot.
22:22	KirinDave	johnmn3: My internet connection sometimes plays caching games because AT&T sucks.
22:22	KirinDave	johnmn3: I tunnel through an EC2 instance to alleviate these issues
22:23	johnmn3	mmm
22:23	KirinDave	Crazy as it sounds, going through EC2 is better than going through a broken cache run by AT&T
22:24	TimMc	KirinDave: You might also get better latency, weirdly enough.
22:24	johnmn3	what do you mean a cache? like an optimizer?
22:24	DespiteItAll	Ok, I'm in linux but it should be the same. At the bottom of the snapshot window there are tabs for call tree, hot spots, combined, and info
22:24	johnmn3	I wonder if I'm running through a cache
22:25	DespiteItAll	hot spots gives me the same sort of info as the main profiler. but I can right-click on a function and choose either backtraces or call-tree
22:25	johnmn3	DespiteItAll: which tab are you in? for a given snapshot, I have "overview" "Monitor" and "Threads"
22:25	johnmn3	hmm
22:25	TimMc	johnmn3: If the cache isn't broken, you wouldn't be able to tell without using timing info.
22:26	DespiteItAll	johnmn3: oh I think there's two different "snapshots". Are you hitting the snapshot button from the profiler window?
22:26	johnmn3	yyyyea, I think
22:26	johnmn3	I'm taking a snapshot while it's running
22:27	DespiteItAll	Weird. When I do that, I get a snapshot on the left side that's under the main process. The tabs on top are then overview, monitor, threads, profiler, [snapshot]
22:27	johnmn3	while it's running, from the toplevel menu, I'll click "Applications" and "application snapshot"
22:28	DespiteItAll	ahhh, do you have "profiler snapshot"?
22:28	johnmn3	what version are you running?
22:28	johnmn3	yea, I do have a profiler snapshot
22:28	johnmn3	do that?
22:28	DespiteItAll	yeah, try that
22:28	DespiteItAll	I'm running 1.2.2
22:28	johnmn3	aaaaah
22:28	johnmn3	there it is
22:29	johnmn3	1.3.2 here
22:29	DespiteItAll	When profiling, I have a few buttons. a trash can, an arrow, "snapshot", and some disks. I just hit that snapshot button.
22:29	johnmn3	ah
22:29	DespiteItAll	I should updat4e
22:29	johnmn3	for realz
22:29	johnmn3	you running fedora?
22:29	DespiteItAll	ubuntu
22:29	DespiteItAll	9.04 or something
22:29	johnmn3	11.04 has 1.3
22:30	DespiteItAll	I don't like change :)
22:30	johnmn3	yea, that's ancient
22:30	johnmn3	:)
22:30	DespiteItAll	it's not my fault they're determined to make every new version suck more than the last
22:30	DespiteItAll	anyway, I gotta run. Good luck profiling!
22:31	gfrlog	,(alias 'a 'b)
22:31	gfrlog	&(alias 'a 'b)
22:31	sexpbot	java.lang.NullPointerException: Expecting Symbol + Namespace
22:31	johnmn3	DespiteItAll: thanks!
22:31	gfrlog	&(doc alias)
22:31	sexpbot	⟹ "([alias namespace-sym]); Add an alias in the current namespace to another namespace. Arguments are two symbols: the alias to be used, and the symbolic name of the target namespace. Use :as in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly."
22:31	johnmn3	wow.. way too many futureTasks
22:31	TimMc	johnmn3: I have a pristine Install/Live CD pair pack of Ubuntu 5.10 :-)
22:32	johnmn3	interesting though, to drill down into the call stack. TimMc: that you're running?
22:32	TimMc	Naw. I'm on 10.04 or something.
22:33	TimMc	Was on 9.04ish for a while because of a FS corruption bug they still haven't fixed in an intermediate release.
22:34	johnmn3	I can't help my self.. I'm running the new 11.04 with unity in a vm
22:34	johnmn3	I used linux as my primary OS for... 6 or 7 years
22:35	johnmn3	then I bought this new envy 14
22:35	johnmn3	with one of those new "hybrid graphics cards" ... and I decided to just leave win7 on there
22:35	johnmn3	Linux can't do anything with these new hybrid graphics cards.. frustrating
22:37	johnmn3	does anyone know how to set the number of threadpools in clojure, for agents?
22:37	johnmn3	threadpool or something?
22:42	amalloy	the...number of threadpools? do you maybe mean the number of threads in the pool? either way though i don't think there's an easy way to do it; i think your best bet is dealing with j.u.concurrency yourself
22:47	gfrlog	I am thinking it would be convenient to have a pr-str function where lists are either converted to vectors or quoted :-/
22:48	johnmn3	something made me think that threadpools have only one active thread at a time. and the pool manages timeshares between the threads, and you have multiple pools for multiple procs
22:48	johnmn3	looks like most of my time is spent on deref
22:49	johnmn3	and creating vectors
22:50	johnmn3	amalloy: I guess it makes more sense what you said, given the term "fixed size threadpool"
22:51	amalloy	gfrlog: it kinda would, wouldn't it, now that you mention it
22:53	amalloy	&(use 'clojure.walk)
22:53	sexpbot	⟹ nil
22:54	amalloy	&(let [f [1 '(2 3 [1])]] (postwalk #(if (seq? %) (vec %) %) f))
22:54	sexpbot	⟹ [1 [2 3 [1]]]
22:54	amalloy	gfrlog: good enough?
22:57	gfrlog	oh sorry
22:57	gfrlog	um
22:58	gfrlog	that looks fantastic
22:58	gfrlog	thanks.
22:59	gfrlog	I need to get more familiar with clojure.walk I think.
22:59	amalloy	i have a transform-if in my little toolbox which would be well-suited for that
22:59	amalloy	(postwalk (transform-if seq? vec) f)
23:01	gfrlog	on that note -- g2g lol rofl l8ers bye
23:01	gfrlog	s/g2g lol rofl l8ers bye/goodnight
23:01	sexpbot	<gfrlog> on that note -- goodnight
23:02	amalloy	gfrlog: https://github.com/amalloy/amalloy-utils/blob/master/src/amalloy/utils/transform.clj#L3 if you want to steal it
23:02	amalloy	hah! got it before he left
23:07	gfrlog	amalloy: you may have got it before I left, but it immediately was lost off my screen and it took me several minutes on the IRC log sites to retrieve it because apparently it is tomorrow in certain time zones already.
23:07	amalloy	heh
23:07	amalloy	yeah, i figured as much. i was going to tweet it for you actually
23:07	gfrlog	makes me think the n01se.net thinger must be in argentina
23:08	gfrlog	you can tweet it anyway, then the people who do social graph analysis will think we're slightly more popular and influential
23:08	amalloy	gfrlog: other way round, surely? like england or something
23:09	gfrlog	amalloy: I'm in eastern US and it's still an hour from midnight. One hour later puts it farther east, which is either the eastern half of south america or maybe someplace in canada or iceland or something
23:10	amalloy	gfrlog: yeah you seem to be right, there. i'm even worse at geography than i thought
23:11	gfrlog	oh then this will be fun: Which US state is closest to Africa?
23:11	amalloy	because it's fun, i'm going to assume hawaii
23:11	gfrlog	no, but if you picked several more fun states you might get it
23:11	gfrlog	just bounce around a bit at various extremes
23:12	amalloy	um, alaska? can i wrap around a pole or something?
23:13	gfrlog	no, it's not that drastic of a trick
23:13	gfrlog	more of a bending...
23:14	gfrlog	okay okay fine
23:14	gfrlog	Maine it is
23:14	amalloy	who knew
23:15	tomoj	along the surface?
23:15	gfrlog	yeah
23:15	gfrlog	it's completely obvious if you look at a globe
23:15	gfrlog	google earth would do as well
23:15	gfrlog	the standard projection completely distorts it
23:17	gfrlog	okay. Let's try this again
23:17	gfrlog	no sneaky links at the last second
23:17	gfrlog	bye
23:18	amalloy	whoops. accidental empathic /part there i guess