#clojure – 2010-12-21

2010-12-21

02:19	joshua__	Not enjoying working with C++ at all.
02:19	joshua__	I'm helping my uncle by writing a bot for a program called CamFrog.
02:19	joshua__	After just having made a plugin for the sexpbot in this channel.
02:20	joshua__	Plugin in C++: 20+ files and hundreds of lines of code
02:20	joshua__	Plugin in Clojure: 1 file
02:21	joshua__	And I'm not even done yet. Any suggestions as to what database I should be using in C++ for a Windows box? I don't want to spend too much time downloading/getting it set up.
02:22	joshua__	only need to store a string username and an int total_score (maybe a long but w/e)
02:23	sandGorgon	joshua__, you could look into using sqlite or berkleydb (as embedded) or Postgresql (as full fledged RDBMS)
02:23	Raynes	joshua__: You only need to store two values in total? Why use a database at all?
02:24	amalloy	joshua__: yeah, what Raynes said
02:24	joshua__	Raynes: potentially hundreds of users actually, this program is likely to be very very popular.
02:24	Raynes	If I just had to store two values, I'd just store a Clojure map in a file and read it. Like we do with sexpbot.
02:25	amalloy	joshua__: even with thousands of users there's not much need for a database
02:25	joshua__	People tend to play the current version of the bot, but its closed source and they want to put "mad gab" a game into it.
02:25	Raynes	Right.
02:25	Raynes	Just a key-value store (a Clojure map) seems like it would be good enough.
02:26	joshua__	I don't think C++ lets you eval a source file actually ;p
02:26	amalloy	Raynes: well, he doesn't have clojure maps in c++, of course. but you can write a string and an int to a file and read it back into c++'s hashmap
02:26	Raynes	amalloy: Well, he should write a Clojure reader of course.
02:26	amalloy	of course
02:26	Raynes	I was working under the pretense that he was going to implement Clojure in C++ as a prerequisite to the project.
02:26	Raynes	I am disappoint.
02:27	Raynes	Nonetheless, it still stands. It could be stored as JSON just as well.
02:28	joshua__	Raynes: I think I can handle a text file. I'll try it out. My only worry is that writes would be a big pain.
02:28	amalloy	joshua__: right, i'm with Raynes again, though i'd use xml because json makes me twitch
02:28	Raynes	amalloy: I don't think I know you.
02:28	amalloy	joshua__: not as big a pain as shipping a database engine with your bot :P
02:29	joshua__	amalloy: THAT is why I was so hesitant as to ask.
02:29	joshua__	joshua__, I was on the mongodb site going.. umm.. do I really want them to have to do this..
02:30	amalloy	joshua__: seriously though, you don't have to write until the bot shuts down, or maybe periodically; and http://jsoncpp.sourceforge.net/ should make it manageable
02:30	amalloy	(not endorsing this particular parser: just the first google hit)
02:31	joshua__	28 thumbs up in a stack overflow post so I guess I'll try it.
02:32	joshua__	btw Raynes, your bot is way more impressive now than it was before. You don't really appreciate how easy it is to make something until it becomes very hard.
02:33	joshua__	Thank you for not naming "recieve a message" 0x02
02:33	joshua__	etc
02:33	Raynes	Hah! :>
03:00	joshua__	amalloy, just realized there is an xml library already in the source tree so I'm abandonning the idea of using json
03:00	joshua__	midnight, give me a break =(
03:00	amalloy	Raynes: score one for amalloy
03:00	joshua__	at least I spotted it eventually
03:25	zmyrgel	I'm trying to find out how to profile my code
03:25	zmyrgel	I have a function test in one of my clj files which I want to test, it uses functions from other files
03:27	zmyrgel	in my lein project dir I can see the file game$test.class under classes dir but how to get java's -Xprof to run it so I could get the profiler output?
03:30	zmyrgel	one issue fixed with -cp project-0.1-standalone.jar but now I get understandable message, Main Method not found in game$test
03:32	zmyrgel	should I just modify the code so I call my test function from projects main funtion is there a better way for it?
05:30	kensho	Hi. I'm looking into submitting the clojure contributor agreement. Is there a way to send the clojure contributor agreement via fax?
06:01	AWizzArd	kensho: I already asked a few times. Currently it is not an option to email/fax it.
06:01	AWizzArd	Musste mit der Post schicken ;)
06:02	kensho	AWizzArd: I see thanks. Ich hoffe nur die Post verbockt es nicht :)
08:44	AWizzArd	Is instance? the right fn to find out if an object implements a specific Interface or Protocol?
08:45	cemerick	AWizzArd: instance? is right for interfaces, satisfies? is right for protocols
08:48	AWizzArd	Ah good.
08:48	AWizzArd	Thanks!
08:48	AWizzArd	cemerick: Would you in general prefer Protocols over definterface?
08:49	AWizzArd	If you want to extend your Records with some fns.
08:49	AWizzArd	(or deftypes)
08:50	cemerick	I very rarely use definterface.
08:50	susumu	hi, I'm getting out of memory errors... I know where, but don't understand why. I've narrowed it down to these two examples:
08:50	susumu	(def not_out_of_mem
08:50	susumu	(let [result 0]
08:50	susumu	(reduce + result (range 50000000))))
08:50	susumu	(def out_of_mem
08:50	susumu	(reduce + 0 (range 50000000)))
08:51	cemerick	That doesn't mean it doesn't have utility vs. protocols, just that my use cases tend to favor protocols.
08:51	susumu	(println out_of_mem2) blows the java heap every time.
08:52	chouser	susumu: surely you don't have to print it to cause it to blow the heap?
08:52	susumu	something to do with (let result) allowing a local optimize?
08:52	susumu	sorry, last line should have been: (println out_of_mem)
08:53	susumu	chouser: true, don't have to print it.
08:53	AWizzArd	cemerick: are definterfaces possibly more efficient? Do they allow type-hints that defprotocols don't?
08:54	dnolen	AWizzArd: because of that they are also more tedious. They don't create functions and you have type-hint to avoid reflection.
08:54	chouser	susumu: that's really interesting.
08:54	susumu	first version, not_out_of_mem, doesn't cause out of memory errors.
08:54	chouser	I wonder if it's some kind of regression.
08:54	chouser	(reduce + 0 (range 50000000)) by itself also doesn't blow the heap
08:54	dnolen	AWizzArd: I found myself using them a lot more during the :static days, because protocols and :static did not play well together.
08:55	susumu	chouser: regression?
08:55	chouser	I mean, I wonder if this worked correctly in some (older) versions of Clojure.
08:56	AWizzArd	dnolen: which is more tedious? a) definterface or b) defprotocol?
08:56	dnolen	AWizzArd: definterface
08:56	AWizzArd	dnolen: what advantage does definterface over defprotocol?
08:56	AWizzArd	Can definterface type-hint more? Is it more efficient, because it can decide at compile-time what to do?
08:56	susumu	same behavior in clojure 1.1.0 (just tried it)
08:57	cemerick	AWizzArd: it's true, protocols don't support hinting of the corresponding methods.
08:58	cemerick	That doesn't have much of anything to do with compile-time though.
08:58	dnolen	AWizzArd: you can provide arguments types to definterface, but you will also have to type hint your method calls and it's arguments when you use it.
08:59	AWizzArd	What I like so far about the definterface: I have a macro that expands into a defn, and it type-hints its return value. And the definterface method also type-hints its return value. This allows me to call (.add (.myInterfaceFN (my-macroed-defn-that-returns-a-record-implementing-the-ITF)) (JButton. "Hi")) without throwing a reflection warning.
09:00	AWizzArd	I don't know if I make .getContainer a Protocol fn get-container that I can also specify that get-container always returns a java.awt.Container
09:01	AWizzArd	And also have it making use of the typehint that my macro added to my-macroed-defn
09:01	AWizzArd	I will try it out :)
09:02	cemerick	AWizzArd: protocol fns can be hinted, they just don't pass through to the generated interface.
09:03	chouser	AWizzArd: It looks like you can type hint a protocol fn's return value
09:03	dnolen	cemerick: so it's just for documentation purposes?
09:03	cemerick	dnolen: no, the hint is as effective as hinting a regular fn w.r.t. avoiding reflection on return values
09:03	dnolen	whenever I tried type-hinting protocols it seemed to cause me trouble.
09:03	chouser	such that when you call the fn, the compiler will know the return type and method calls on it should be able to avoid reflection with less manual hinting
09:04	dnolen	cemerick: oh, sorry I see type-hinting the return value.
09:04	cemerick	right
09:04	chouser	susumu: I'm pretty well stumped
09:04	cemerick	It's all Object in and out of the protocol's generated interface's methods, but that has no bearing on the hints on the protocol's fns.
09:05	susumu	chouser: me too... going to post on google groups
09:05	AWizzArd	Hmm yes, it works so far.
09:05	chouser	susumu: My next thoughts are to examine the bytecode generated by 'def' and/or profile the running code. Both rather intimidating.
09:06	AWizzArd	I said (defprotocol my-proto (^java.awt.Component get-container [this]))
09:07	dnolen	chouser: interesting 1.3.0 doesn't exhibit that issue.
09:07	dnolen	alpha4 anyway
09:13	chouser	dnolen: really!? I'm seeing it.
09:14	chouser	oh, maybe not alpha4
09:16	chouser	I'm seeing it on Clojure 1.3.0-alpha4
09:16	chouser	strangest to me is that (def x <reduce>) breaks but <reduce> works fine
09:16	dnolen	chouser: oh sorry, I was actually using SNAPSHOT
09:18	dnolen	actually I'm perhaps I'm not seeing it because my JVM settings are -Xms1024M -Xmx2048M
09:18	chouser	I'm running with -Xmx2m
09:19	chouser	ohhhh
09:19	cemerick	you mean 2g?
09:19	chouser	no
09:20	chouser	for OOM tests like this, you don't have to wait as long for failure if you keep a small heap
09:20	chouser	I bet this is a protocol caching thing
09:20	cemerick	I wouldn't have even thought one could get a REPL with 2m.
09:21	chouser	bah. nevermind. spoke too soon
09:21	chouser	(def out_of_mem (last (range 50000000))) fails, no protocol in sight
09:22	chouser	(def ok (let [] (last (range 50000000)))) works fine
09:22	dnolen	chouser: yeah, when I run (def x (reduce + 0 (range 50000000)), my memory explodes to ~1.35gb of RAM
09:24	dnolen	isn't this just explicit head holding? (i.e. something that locals clearing can't handle?)
09:24	mduerksen	chouser, susumu: i don't know the internals of def, but could it be caused by the fact that (def x (reduce... allocates the memory for the range twice (one for the def, and one for the evaluation of reduce). in contrast, a (reduce... alone just allocates it once, and also the (def x (let [] (reduce ... , since within the let, no var is created
09:25	dnolen	hmm, perhaps not, (def x (map inc (range 50000000))) is instantaneous
09:25	chouser	dnolen: lazy
09:25	dnolen	chouser: I know
09:25	chouser	oh
09:25	dnolen	I thought reduce was too.
09:25	chouser	no
09:25	chouser	reduce is eager
09:35	AWizzArd	This is odd. I now added a non-hinted protocol fn and that too doesn't produce a reflection warning.
09:35	AWizzArd	Is there some kind of type-inference at work?
09:38	dnolen	you don't need hinting for the first argument of protocol. Also if you return a type/record as the first arg to a protocol fn for that same type you also don't need hinting.
09:38	dnolen	AWizzArd: big benefit of protocols, no type-hinting full speed ahead.
09:39	AWizzArd	dnolen: yeah, though I combined this with a Swing method call.
09:39	AWizzArd	(.add my-frame (get-container2 (create-some-panel)))
09:40	AWizzArd	create-some-panel returns a (record) MyPanel instance. MyPanel implements a protocol fn get-container2 which is not type-hinted.
09:40	AWizzArd	So (.add ^Object x) <-- should throw a reflection warning.
09:40	AWizzArd	forgot the my-frame
09:40	AWizzArd	(.add my-frame ^Object x) is what the compiler sees
09:41	AWizzArd	because get-container2 isn't type-hinted
09:41	chouser	AWizzArd: my-frame is a javax.swing.JFrame?
09:43	bartj	what does it mean when I see a: "call to sadd can't be resolved" reflection warning
09:43	bartj	and how would I go about fixing it?
09:43	bartj	where sadd is a function call from j-redis
09:44	chouser	bartj: it's not broken. Unless you know the performance hit there is actually a problem, I'd recommend leaving it alone.
09:44	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
09:44	bartj	it's syntax is as follows: (.sadd client param1 param2)
09:44	jcromartie	Does anybody know if it's possible to do something like Seaside in Clojure, without continuations?
09:44	AWizzArd	chouser: yes
09:45	bartj	chouser, I am trying to improve performance by removing the reflection warnings
09:45	AWizzArd	chouser: I just tried another example and there I get a type-hint warning as expected.
09:45	AWizzArd	So in general there is no type-inference mechanism. But for this one odd case I am not getting a warning.
09:46	chouser	AWizzArd: you're sure the protocol function doesn't know it's return type?
09:46	chouser	AWizzArd: (:tag (meta #'get-container2))
09:46	AWizzArd	chouser: One protocol fn is (^java.awt.Component get-container [this]) and the other is (get-container2 [this]). This is in the concrete implementation of my Record.
09:47	AWizzArd	chouser: the call of :tag returns nil.
09:47	AWizzArd	for get-container it returns java.awt.Component
09:47	chouser	bartj: ok, in that case you have to tell Clojure at least what class client is, and depending on the sadd methods available, perhaps the classes for param1 and param2 as well.
09:48	chouser	AWizzArd: hmph
09:48	AWizzArd	puzzeling
09:48	chouser	bartj: one way to do that is (.sadd ^ClientClass client param1 param2)
09:49	chouser	bartj: though you can hint client when you define it instead
09:49	AWizzArd	It really seems to me that for some cases there is an implicit type-inference at work. Maybe something in the JVM, not in Clojure.
09:50	AWizzArd	But anyway: I can explicitly type-hint the return values of my protocol fns, so it delivers what I am asking for. So, from that pov I won't need definterface.
09:51	AWizzArd	But: can defprotocol do primitive type-hinting of function parameters?
09:51	bartj	chouser, thanks!, would I also need to type-hint "sadd"
09:52	cemerick	AWizzArd: no, but that's generally irrelevant
09:52	AWizzArd	Ok, so that is the domain of definterface then.
09:52	AWizzArd	This is might be the single one advantage of definterface over defprotocol.
09:52	AWizzArd	Or are there others?
09:52	chouser	bartj: the word ".sadd" itself? no. Only its arguments (client, param1, param2, etc.) would ever need to be hinted
09:53	AWizzArd	Well, one thing that I notice is: my protocol fns inherit the namespace of my lib. So, users need to ns/get-container wheras the definterface method can be called (.getContainer rec) everywhere :)
09:54	bartj	chouser, why would you not want to type-hint "sadd" itself?
09:54	AWizzArd	chouser: why did you suggest to not type-hint unless one knows there is a performance hit?
09:55	bartj	chouser, "sadd" returns a type Java Map so, I was expecting to give (^Map .sadd ^Clientclass client...)
09:58	chouser	AWizzArd: why else would you clutter your code with them?
09:59	AWizzArd	chouser: yes, for performance reasons. Though it is in principle dependend on your editor, which could hide the type-hints.
09:59	AWizzArd	technomancy: The swank-clojure I currently use is compatible with Clojure 1.3 Alpha 2. Is there already a version which runs 1.3.3a or even 1.3.4a?
10:00	AWizzArd	chouser: In 1.3.3a the new thing was manually definde bindable vars. What changed in 1.3.4a?
10:00	chouser	bartj: java methods can't be overloaded on only their return type, so if you hint the args sufficiently, Clojure will know the return type and can use that knowledge in subsequent expressions
10:01	bartj	chouser, that is very informative, thanks
10:01	chouser	AWizzArd: normalized unchecked-* fn names; added unchecked-math support; fixes to binding conveyance (and agent)
10:01	AWizzArd	hmm
10:01	AWizzArd	Do you have an example what "normalizeq" means in this context?
10:02	chouser	AWizzArd: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/3e644c768b1f769217ecd484c019580384c7a670
10:03	AWizzArd	thx
10:04	AWizzArd	oh interesting, the options map of defn accepts an :inline
10:05	AWizzArd	And I see that :static is still used. I thougt this was removed?
10:08	chouser	:inline is old. Useful, but an undocumented implementation detail that could go away at any time.
10:08	chouser	I believe :static is currently ignored, though as you note it is still attached to some core functions.
10:10	AWizzArd	Yes, :static is still present in several functions.
10:10	AWizzArd	And :inline is also used here and there, also rhickey recently added some of them.
10:10	AWizzArd	For example at https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/eb076dab7b7be68957922f47ad8d140e4ec579a1
10:10	chouser	yes. I enjoy exploiting :inline, but it's a dangerous game.
10:10	AWizzArd	;)
10:11	chouser	it allows you to create dual-nature vars, that act as macros or functions depending on how they're used
10:11	AWizzArd	Yes. We both discussed this some weeks ago.
10:11	chouser	ok
10:12	AWizzArd	I found this interesting.
10:12	AWizzArd	Anybody here who successfuly runs swank-clojure with Clojure 1.3.4alpha?
10:16	bartj	I see a bunch of reflection warnings in clojure/contrib/pprint/pretty_writer.clj
10:16	bartj	but, I do not seem to have imported the clojure.contrib.pprint anywhere
10:32	mduerksen	chouser, susumu: any new insights regarding the heap-overflow issue?
10:35	chouser	nope
10:56	tonyl	hello
11:08	AWizzArd	Hi tonyl.
11:32	fhd	Hi. It seems I cannot "use" records created via defrecord in other namespaces (i.e. (MyRecord. foo bar)) - Is there a way to make them public?
11:34	chouser	fhd: you either need to import the class MyRecord by using 'import', or have a factory function in that other namespace, like (defn my-record ...)
11:34	fhd	chouser: Ah, thanks
11:35	AWizzArd	Btw, I suggested rhickey to not implement those factories automatically, but instead wait and see how Records will be used. I think we gathered a good bit of experience and have use cases and it should now be possible to add some factories.
11:37	leif-p	Hi, all. Is anyone present familiar with the labrepl exercises from Relevance?
11:38	fhd	leif-p: I've done a few.
11:42	leif-p	I was doing the 'zero-sum' exercise, and as is common with exercises, the most interesting ones don't have solutions given. I don't really have any experience with concurrent programming, so I wanted to ask someone if my reasoning about the Bonus question 1 was correct.
11:42	fhd	leif-p: Sorry, didn't get that far :(
11:45	leif-p	fhd: Ah, well, thanks anyway. Anyone want to field a basic concurrency question?
11:47	tonyl	I would say just shoot the question and somebody would pick it up
11:48	tonyl	~anyone
11:48	clojurebot	Please do not ask if anyone uses, knows, is good with, can help you with <some program or library>. Instead, ask your real question and someone will answer if they can help.
11:59	leif-p	OK, let's say you have a set of 'bank accounts' repr. by {id (ref balance), ...} OR (ref {id balance, ...}). You have to transfer between accounts without changing the total, and you have to be able to read a consistent total. The question says "One of these approaches is the correct one. Which one, and why? Under what circumstances would the other approach make sense?" My reasoning is that transfers will be a lot more co
12:11	AWizzArd	I have a seq and want to fetch the element that follows a given keyword. Do you have other ideas than this to fetch the 1000?
12:11	AWizzArd	,(let [[_ n] (drop-while #(not (#{:key} %)) [1 2 3 4 5 :key 1000 6 7 8])] n)
12:11	clojurebot	1000
12:11	AWizzArd	(drop-while #(not (#{:key} %) coll) <-- better solution?
12:23	leif-p	AWizzArd: The second is just a step of your first solution, right?
12:27	leif-p	AWizzArd: Oops, sorry, you were asking "is there a better solution?" Nevermind.
12:28	AWizzArd	Yes. The line I started with (drop-while ...) is what I currently have.
12:31	tonyl	I think that is a very concise way to do it, but I am not an expert. I can't think of any other idea than drop-while
12:33	tonyl	maybe reduce, but that won't stop processing when it finds :key
12:34	leif-p	AWizzArd: I agree with tonyl. Though if you don't need to recognize several keys I think #(not= :key %) reads better. And I would use 'second' instead of the 'let'.
12:35	tonyl	maybe ##(drop-while (complement #{:key}) [1 2 3 4 5 :key 1000 6 7 8])
12:35	sexpbot	⟹ (:key 1000 6 7 8)
12:35	tonyl	then use second like leif-p says
12:36	tonyl	&(second (drop-while (complement #{:key}) [1 2 3 4 5 :key 1000 6 7 8]))
12:36	sexpbot	⟹ 1000
12:39	amalloy	leif-p: re banking, i think you want (ref {id balance}) from those two choices, but i'm always a big proponent of (atom {id1 bal1, id2 bal2})
12:43	amalloy	but tbh i don't think it makes much of a difference whether you ref just the balance or the pair; in both cases your amount-totalling thread will have to (ensure x) for every ref x in the map
12:48	leif-p	It seems similar to table vs. row locking in databases, but I don't know if that analogy holds.
12:49	amalloy	leif-p: i think it's similar to row vs column locking :P
12:49	amalloy	you have to wrap the whole thing in an atom/ref to get actual table locking
12:53	leif-p	amalloy: Let me rewrite it so I know we're talking about the same thing: {id1 (ref balance1), id2 (ref balance2), ...} OR (ref {id1 balance1, id2 balance2, ...} ) <-- whole thing wrapped
12:54	amalloy	right
12:54	amalloy	though once you only have one ref it might as well be an atom
12:57	AWizzArd	tonyl and leif-p: thanks for your input.
12:58	leif-p	amalloy: So is my reasoning above correct, or am I misunderstanding refs?
12:58	leif-p	AWizzArd: np
12:58	cemerick	I suggest that the main Clojure mailing list be put back on full moderation for a spell.
12:58	amalloy	leif-p: what reasoning? the row-vs-column thing? or do you mean the really long message you tried to send that got clipped?
13:00	amalloy	cemerick: i haven't been following. has the Ah-ha thread gotten bad too?
13:00	cemerick	amalloy: there's any number of bad threads. The s/n ratio has completely flipped around AFAICT.
13:00	cemerick	Maybe I have that impression because I only look when people send me mails/tweets/etc saying "whoa, what's up with the ML"?
13:01	amalloy	cemerick: bizarre. are there enough people around who can be "trusted" to moderate without flipping out? cause it seems like even pillars of the community are getting involved in some of these threads
13:02	cemerick	amalloy: only in a palliative capacity, unless I've missed something.
13:03	amalloy	cemerick: wow, it's pretty rare that irc makes me look up a word
13:03	amalloy	$dict palliative
13:03	sexpbot	amalloy: adjective: Serving to palliate; serving to extenuate, mitigate, or alleviate.
13:04	cemerick	I think OS X's definition is more apt: "relieving pain or alleviating a problem without dealing with the underlying cause"
13:04	amalloy	ah
13:04	leif-p	amalloy: I was not aware; my client never truncates/warns me. Here's my question: http://pastebin.com/T24s8x7H
13:05	cemerick	There was an item on HN a week or two ago about how egalitarian communities die with the influx of less engaged / more foolish members. Anyone have the link for that on hand? My google-fu fails me.
13:06	technomancy	cemerick: kinda feels to me like being in university when a bunch of freshmen flood in, all wowed by this one prof.
13:07	cemerick	technomancy: I think that's putting it too lightly.
13:07	amalloy	leif-p: oh, i misread what the second approach was, the first time
13:07	amalloy	the second approach was indeed exactly what i suggested
13:10	amalloy	the first approach is definitely wrong, and the second right. your reasoning about "two accounts in a transaction" is true, but is misguided; the problem is i'm having trouble quantifying where the wrong-thinking is. i think it's related to immutability, and the cheap-ness of @foo. do you have The Joy of Clojure?
13:12	AWizzArd	technomancy: The swank-clojure I currently use is compatible with Clojure 1.3 Alpha 2. Is there already a version which runs 1.3.3a or even 1.3.4a?
13:13	amalloy	a good general rule, though: you usually want as few reference-type objects as possible; making them bigger is a much smaller problem than making more of them
13:15	amalloy	leif-p: ^^
13:18	leif-p	amalloy: I do not have tJoC. I was worried that if I use accounts = (ref {}), and I have 1000 people trying to do (transfer accounts from to amount), there's going to be a lot of waiting around.
13:20	amalloy	leif-p: that's an interesting point. i guess i haven't had that sort of usage pattern before
13:22	technomancy	AWizzArd: I just got some patches from monsieur stuart s that allegedly improve support for 1.3; lemme push to clojars
13:23	amalloy	leif-p: the problem with your approach (and it is a soluble problem) is that when you do try to verify that the total is 0, you'll need to somehow deref them all in a consistent snapshot. eg (reduce + (map (comp deref key) accounts)) won't work
13:25	amalloy	i think (reduce + (dosync (map (comp ensure key) accounts))) will work, but it means the whole balance-checking operation will have to reload lots of times because the constant balance-transfers are trampling it
13:29	AWizzArd	technomancy: btw, is there a direct download link from clojars?
13:30	technomancy	AWizzArd: there is somewhere; couldn't tell you off the top of my head
13:31	AWizzArd	http://clojars.org/repo/swank-clojure/swank-clojure/1.3.0-SNAPSHOT/
13:32	leif-p	amalloy: Whoa, I can't just wrap the whole reduce in a dosync to ensure consistency? I have to 'ensure' each and every ref in the dosync?
13:33	amalloy	leif-p: right, because imagine the alternative. you're iterating over a bunch of refs, right? so you have to deref them all
13:33	AWizzArd	technomancy: thx
13:34	amalloy	the problem is that @foo, even in a ref, is an instant snapshot of foo's current value; only writing to a ref (or ensuring it, which is basically a dummy write) will ever make a transaction retry
13:36	amalloy	refs are not locks
13:41	leif-p	amalloy: Erk. The labrepl ex. has the (dosync (reduce + ...) code I described, and it says "change total-balance to read within a transaction, which guarantees that all reads are from the same point-in-time." So that's wrong?
13:43	amalloy	leif-p: well, it's possible that what's wrong is me. i'm pretty sure this is why ensure exists, though
13:48	amalloy	leif-p: hm. interesting. i guess i'm wrong
13:48	amalloy	well, now i wonder what ensure is for
13:49	amalloy	leif-p: anyway, thanks for showing me this. hopefully we've both gotten a better understanding of refs
13:54	leif-p	amalloy: Thanks for all your help. Since you and the exercise differ, I'll just have to ask again when someone from Relevance (or rhickey :)) is around to see if they can clarify.
13:57	amalloy	leif-p: https://gist.github.com/9313060b4a54377cdd67 is a quick test case i wrote that you can play with
13:59	bartj	, (remove #(contains? ["a" "b" "c"] %) ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f"])
13:59	clojurebot	("a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f")
13:59	bartj	I was expecting only "e" and "f" in the above experiment
13:59	technomancy	clojurebot: doc contains?
13:59	clojurebot	contains? is for checking whether a collection has a value for a given key. If you want to find out whether a value exists in a Collection (in linear time!), use the java method .contains
14:02	bartj	technomancy, thank you
14:03	bartj	I have about five million items in a collection and I would like to remove 100 of them
14:03	bartj	currently I am using a clojure.set/difference
14:03	bartj	something like this: (clojure.set/difference (into #{} 5-million-items) (into #{} 100-items))
14:04	bartj	I was thinking about using a remove instead, since it is lazy
14:04	leif-p	bartj: (remove #(contains? #{"a" "b" "c"} %) ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f"]) or just (remove #(#{"a" "b" "c"} %) ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f"]) seem to work
14:05	amalloy	leif-p: or indeed ##(remove #{"a" "b" "c"} ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f"])
14:05	sexpbot	⟹ ("d" "e" "f")
14:05	amalloy	but all of those require putting everything into a set, which bartj seems to be avoiding
14:06	amalloy	otoh, bartj, you only have to put the 100 items into a set; the 5M can be processed lazily
14:07	bartj	to something like this: (remove #(.contains 100-items %) 5-million)
14:08	leif-p	amalloy: Ah, right you are. But (remove (set 100-items) huge-lazy-seq) can stream over the large data. Which you just said.
14:08	leif-p	I type too slowly. :)
14:08	amalloy	leif-p: #(foo %) is equivalent to just foo
14:09	amalloy	bartj: (remove (set 100-items) 5-million)
14:09	bartj	amalloy, you mean taking advantage of the fact that the second collection in a clojure.set/difference can be lazy
14:09	bartj	https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/7QVFwtXWAi8/discussion
14:11	amalloy	bartj: no, that is kinda crazy
14:12	amalloy	stu is 100% right on that one: it's not specified in the docs specifically because it's an implementation detail. it might change at any time, and you should only pass sets into clojure.set/difference
14:19	bartj	amalloy, (a-set element) -> checks for the presence of the element in the set, right?
14:20	bartj	similarly, (a-vector element) -> returns vector[element]
14:20	amalloy	bartj: indeed
14:21	technomancy	bartj: if you're asking what the point of the contains? function is now, that means you're on the right track.
14:21	bartj	technomancy, you type fast!
14:22	amalloy	bartj: it's the keyboard pants
14:22	bartj	amalloy, shirt pant?
14:24	bartj	In any case, huge thanks to all
14:29	cemerick	There are plenty of collection implementations that aren't also IFns…
14:30	cemerick	bartj, technomancy ^^
14:31	fogus`	http://fogus.me/fun/marginalia/ :-)
14:32	bartj	cemerick, like sequences ?
14:32	technomancy	cemerick: I didn't say there wasn't a good answer =)
14:32	bartj	, ('(1 2 3) 1)
14:32	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
14:34	cemerick	bartj: and tons of other data structures that can be trivially integrated into clojure idioms like contains? (but not more complicated implementation details like IFn, etc)
14:44	brehaut	fogus: perhaps you could use a minified version of syntax highligher if you are embeding it in every marginalia output?
14:45	crowbar71	2000 lines?
14:45	crowbar71	:p
14:46	brehaut	chouser: surely its language independant?
14:46	chouser	I think a line of Clojure probably weighs more than a line of Java
14:49	Crowb4r	yeah if it's C++ a ton of coe is just writing the memory managment on a small C++ program. :p
14:49	Crowb4r	s/coe/code/
14:49	sexpbot	<Crowb4r> yeah if it's C++ a ton of code is just writing the memory managment on a small C++ program. :p
14:50	Crowb4r	ohh nice feature. ;)
14:50	Crowb4r	thought I was just being crafty.
14:51	amalloy	$sed -Crowb4r s/crafty/devious/
14:51	sexpbot	<Crowb4r> thought I was just being devious.
14:52	Crowb4r	ohh that is super nice.
14:52	amalloy	Crowb4r: glad you like it!
14:53	Crowb4r	you write him/her?
14:53	amalloy	Raynes mostly; the past couple months i've been working a lot on it too
14:54	dnolen	fogus`: marginalia is cool!
14:54	Crowb4r	ahh, using the pirc framework for JAVA or roll your own?
14:54	dnolen	fogus`: I'm getting a lot of extra scrollbars in Safari tho.
14:54	amalloy	he started from pirc and then rolled his own
14:54	fogus`	dnolen: Thanks. Yeah, it needs more work.
14:54	amalloy	and this weekend i wrote https://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot/wiki/Plugin-quick-start-guide as well as a big update to the README, if you're interested in contributing
14:55	Crowb4r	I may look into that. I use pirc myself. is the one you guys made faster then pirc?
14:55	Crowb4r	or just more idiomatic?
14:55	fogus`	brehaut: Thanks. That is a good idea.
14:57	amalloy	Crowb4r: no idea. i haven't looked at the internals
14:57	Crowb4r	ahh ok
14:57	Crowb4r	I should toss Perrin on github and have you look at him.
14:57	amalloy	but it's at http://github.com/Raynes/irclj, i think, if you want to look
14:59	Crowb4r	I have a forecast feature and a last.fm feature as well.
14:59	amalloy	$seen LauJensen
14:59	sexpbot	LauJensen was last seen talking on #clojureql 1 minute and 42 seconds ago.
15:00	dnolen	fogus`: .syntaxhighlighter { ... overflow: visible !important; ... }, should fix it
15:00	amalloy	Crowb4r: damn. i was hoping to find someone who hadn't been hard from for a while
15:00	dnolen	not sure why there are so many !important styles. I hate !important
15:00	fogus`	dnolen: Thank you sir
15:00	chouser	$seen rhickey
15:00	sexpbot	rhickey was last seen quitting 2 weeks and 1 day ago.
15:00	Crowb4r	amalloy: huh? hard from for?
15:01	amalloy	heard
15:01	arkh	Is there an easier way to add a local jar to leiningen's classpath than changing things in ~/.m2 and working with Maven (hoping to avoid maven here)
15:02	raek	arkh: lein install?
15:03	arkh	raek: I'll read the docs on that - thank you
15:06	cemerick	The miserable pile that is iterators and enumerations makes me wish black death upon those responsible.
15:06	cemerick	serenity now
15:07	amalloy	cemerick: java.util.Enumeration, or java.lang.Enum?
15:07	cemerick	The former, plus Collections/enumeration, and the whole lot that hangs with them.
15:07	livingston	I haven't used spit much (I'm assuming that's the preferred way to write out a list), I'm calling (spit "file" foo) where foo is a (def foo (some list thing)) I keep seeing only clojure.lang.LazySeq@6580f481 in my output .. how do I ensure I get the list output?
15:07	amalloy	&(doc spit)
15:07	sexpbot	⟹ "([f content & options]); Opposite of slurp. Opens f with writer, writes content, then closes f. Options passed to clojure.java.io/writer."
15:08	amalloy	livingston: (spit "file" (doall foo)) if the list isn't too long
15:08	chouser	or (split "file" (prn-str foo))
15:10	livingston	amalloy: I treid that but the same thing happens but if I just type foo at the repl I see what I need
15:11	livingston	chouser: that worked -- so what am I missing about the other way? I would assume it would have done what I expected?
15:11	amalloy	livingston: really? doall should force all the lazy seqs. maybe you should post a gist of what you're doing instead of a summary?
15:12	Crowb4r	So what awesome things are going to be in 1.3?
15:12	raek	livingston: spit writes strings to files. you have to make the form you want towrite into a string first
15:12	raek	livingston: (spit "file" (pr-str foo))
15:12	chouser	amalloy: it does force it, the problem is .toString on a lazy seq always just prints the object id
15:12	raek	amalloy: even though the lazy seq is forced, it's still a lazy seq
15:12	chouser	,(str (lazy-seq '(1 2 3 4)))
15:12	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@e93c3"
15:13	raek	spit only calls str/.toString on the argument
15:13	raek	,(pr-str (lazy-seq '(1 2 3 4)))
15:13	livingston	ah I see - ok that makes more sense
15:13	clojurebot	"(1 2 3 4)"
15:13	Crowb4r	wouldn't apply str work as well?
15:13	chouser	if you want readable output, you want pr, prn, pr-str, or prn-str
15:13	raek	Crowb4r: for one level, I suppose so
15:13	Crowb4r	,(apply str (lazy-seq '(1 2 3 4)))
15:13	clojurebot	"1234"
15:14	raek	hrm, yeah...
15:14	raek	nevermind
15:14	Crowb4r	not saying it's a good idea at all.
15:14	livingston	ok so in parallel, slurp brings in only a string too, right? what's the best way to turn that back to a list?
15:15	raek	livingston: read-string
15:15	raek	(btw, why isn't that called "read-str"?)
15:17	amalloy	raek: i think it's because in pr-str pr is an abbreviation so we shorten str to match
15:17	livingston	perfect... thanks (I miss lisp read etc.) that worked though
15:17	amalloy	livingston: read-string is lisp read
15:17	tonyl	there is still read for data structures, not strings
15:18	livingston	except I have to bring the string in first, right? I can't call read read off the open file?
15:18	livingston	oh nice there is just read ok.
15:18	amalloy	&(with-in-str "(foo blah a list)" (read))
15:18	chouser	read itself works on a stream, but read-string is easier to use when it's sufficient.
15:18	sexpbot	⟹ (foo blah a list)
15:19	amalloy	livingston: read-string just expands into the above
15:19	livingston	it's a big string, I'd rather not bring it in twice.
15:19	Crowb4r	Is ther ea concise feature list for 1.3 anyplace?
15:20	amalloy	livingston: right. so (with-in-str (slurp file) (read) (read) (read)...)
15:20	chouser	Crowb4r: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/24c7696808bddfc7
15:22	Crowb4r	Thank you
15:23	livingston	why not (read (reader "file")) ? (alhtough I can't seem to find reader right now)
15:23	chouser	clojure.java.io/reade
15:23	amalloy	livingston: if you bound the reader and reused it, that would work too
15:24	chouser	(with-open [r (reader "file")] (read r))
15:24	chouser	but note that read only reads one form. if you need more than that, you need to handle more complexity
15:24	livingston	alhtough java.io.BufferedReader cannot be cast to java.io.PushbackReader so I guess I need the with-open too makes sense... that's a little more what I'm used to
15:24	fogus`	dnolen: Fixed. Thanks again.
15:25	hiredman	if only there was a function that would repeatedly call other functions
15:25	devinus	ok...when did clojure-contrib become such a pain to compile?
15:25	livingston	(I'm sorry it's really hard to type and read my web client is freaking out and doing some strobe refresh thing I might have to restart this)
15:25	hiredman	when ss got his paws on the build
15:25	Crowb4r	SS?
15:25	clojurebot	I guess that is my answer.
15:25	dnolen	fogus`: nice
15:25	tonyl	trampoline, maybe?
15:25	raek	livingston: with-open doesn't turn a BufferedReader into a PushbackReader. you'd have to do something like (PushbackReader. (reader ...))
15:27	hiredman	stuart sierra
15:28	devinus	modules/def/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/def.clj
15:28	devinus	is that truly necessary?
15:29	chouser	devinus: I sympathize. On the other hand, in what way does that hurt you?
15:29	devinus	chouser: hurt? i wouldn't say hurt, other than i just had to click seven times to open up to the actual file
15:30	technomancy	that filename alone it takes up 1/3 of the width of my screen
15:30	technomancy	well, nearly a third
15:30	devinus	there's like...nothing else in the files leading up to it
15:30	brehaut	devinus: conways law in action?
15:30	technomancy	devinus: java developers are typically paid by the directory.
15:30	devinus	:)
15:30	devinus	technomancy: :P
15:30	Crowb4r	technomancy: LOL
15:31	dnolen	devinus: another victim of mavenization
15:31	amalloy	technomancy: it takes up almost half of my screen; directories like that are no good for the visually-impaired
15:32	technomancy	we used maven-style paths for like six months on my project at work, and everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief when we switched away
15:32	devinus	amalloy: are you saying clojure hates blind people?
15:32	technomancy	including the people who suggested them in the first place
15:32	devinus	:O
15:33	chouser	technomancy: maven-style paths but without maven?
15:33	technomancy	chouser: we were on maven for quite some time
15:34	devinus	ok, clojure question
15:34	technomancy	9 months or so
15:34	devinus	does clojure have a condition/restart system like CL?
15:34	tonyl	technomancy: what style do you use now?
15:34	technomancy	tonyl: src/foo/bar.clj
15:34	chouser	devinus: there is error-kit in contrib. Do you have a need for actual restarts?
15:35	chouser	technomancy: where do you put your java and antlr files?
15:35	devinus	chouser: maybe not yet, but i was curious
15:35	chouser	and your .css, .js, and .html?
15:35	chouser	devinus: ah, good. that's roughly the spirit in which it was written
15:35	technomancy	chouser: it's not a web app, but HTML and the like would go in resources/
15:36	technomancy	chouser: I think maybe one or two people on our team know Java, but there's no chance it would ever get introduced to this codebase
15:36	chouser	technomancy: there will never be anything in src except clojure code?
15:37	brehaut	argh. hacker news must be the best advertisment for not doing a continuation based web framework. im sure i click a couple of expired linsk every day
15:37	technomancy	chouser: there are some JS files for mapreduce jobs; they live in src/ like anything else
15:37	technomancy	that's why the filenames end in .js.
15:40	cemerick	Just out of curiosity, who's typing project-relative paths at all?
15:41	bartj	why would a call to a map function give a Stack Overflow?
15:41	bartj	since map was lazy, I thought this was impossible
15:41	chouser	src/main/clojure vs. src/ isn't as big a loss for our project as com/company/project/namespace.clj vs. namespace.clj, but that change went down long ago with much less fuss.
15:41	brehaut	bartj: the function map calls is still able to stack overflow
15:41	chouser	when forced
15:42	cemerick	chouser: I'd ask the same question re: com/company/project/foo.clj, too. shrug
15:42	brehaut	,(map (fn overflow [a] (overflow a)) [1])
15:42	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
15:43	chouser	,(let [c (map (fn overflow [a] (overflow a)) [1])] 5)
15:43	clojurebot	5
15:43	cemerick	That is, optimizing project layout for directory depth seems like a strange choice in general.
15:44	chouser	cemerick: do you use your mouse while you're programming?
15:44	cemerick	like, is there a shortage of inodes on people's hard drives or something?
15:44	brehaut	chouser: oh yeah true!
15:44	Crowb4r	I use lots of emacs and tab kay. :p
15:44	chouser	brehaut: so depending on how precisely bartj's question was phrased...
15:45	Crowb4r	I'm use to the tab key tanks to python, so hitting tab for autocomplete is not a strech.
15:45	cemerick	chouser: Very rarely.
15:45	Crowb4r	s/tanks/thanks/
15:45	sexpbot	<Crowb4r> I'm use to the tab key thanks to python, so hitting tab for autocomplete is not a strech.
15:45	chouser	cemerick: how do you open a file to edit?
15:46	chouser	cemerick: I never click to do that, almost always type the path.
15:46	rata_	hi all
15:46	Crowb4r	he does all his programming on a C64 still. :p
15:46	bartj	the map is extremely simple
15:46	cemerick	chouser: Say the file I want is @ src/main/clojure/com/snowtide/pdf/io.clj -- Cmd-Shift-R, type "pdf/io", hit return.
15:46	chouser	it's really not a big deal -- having a build system correctly and automatically handle antlr, java, and clojure compilers is a much bigger deal
15:47	bartj	and looks like this: (map #(String. (bytes %) "UTF-8"))))
15:47	chouser	cemerick: cool!
15:47	cemerick	or, "c/s/p/io", if there's lots of ambiguity and I don't want to cursor through a bunch of options, etc.
15:47	Lajla	cemerick, I worship your shadow.
15:48	Lajla	but only if you give me my new recur
15:48	cemerick	Eclipse's matching in that regard is almost as good as TextMate's in that regard.
15:50	bartj	pity is all the errors in the stacktrace show clojure.lang or clojure.core
15:50	bartj	nothing in my files
15:50	Crowb4r	Hmm, is there a good place to learn about java bytecode
15:50	Crowb4r	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/24c7696808bddfc7
15:50	Crowb4r	opps
15:50	Crowb4r	my bad
15:50	chouser	bartj: don't give up. full stack traces are verbose, but almost always have the clues you need
15:51	chouser	bartj: if your environment is only printing the final (or only ever the root) cause, figure out how to get around that to the true full stack trace.
15:51	rata_	why (class ((update-in {} [1] conj 2) 1)) is clojure.lang.PersistentList?
15:51	chouser	then paste it somewhere and we'll help
15:51	amalloy	&(class (conj nil 2))
15:51	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.lang.PersistentList
15:52	chouser	right. that is, conj on nil creates a list
15:53	rata_	mmm.. and why that?
15:54	chouser	what should it create?
15:55	rata_	mmm... I think PersistentList is ok =P
15:55	chouser	:-)
15:55	rata_	I have solved my bug anyway :)
15:56	amalloy	rata_: if you want it to create a vector you can
15:56	amalloy	&(class ((fnil conj []) nil 2))
15:56	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.lang.PersistentVector
15:56	rata_	oh thanks =)
15:57	bartj	here is the stack trace - http://pastie.org/1396100
15:57	chouser	It is an interesting question. Since we have come to say that lists are mainly for code and sequential data is more often held in vectors, why shouldn't conj on nil be changed to create vectors?
15:57	rata_	I want a set... and I was doing (update-in m [k1] dissoc k2), but the right thing was (update-in m [k1 k2] #{})
15:57	bartj	There are about five lines referencing clojure.core* and clojure.lang* which repeat ad-infinitum
15:57	rata_	so I don't have nils in my map
15:58	amalloy	chouser: that would reverse the order of conj
15:58	amalloy	&(conj nil 1 2)
15:58	sexpbot	⟹ (2 1)
15:58	amalloy	&(conj [] 1 2)
15:58	sexpbot	⟹ [1 2]
15:59	rata_	sorry, (assoc-in ...)
15:59	amalloy	so it breaks backwards compatibility, possibly badly
15:59	chouser	it would indeed be a breaking change
16:00	Crowb4r	sounds like someting for a version 1.5 or 2.0 then. :p
16:00	amalloy	Crowb4r: no, 1.3 is all about horrible evil breaking changes, if you read the ML. maybe we could add some more
16:01	chouser	bartj: looks like you have a very deeply nested filters
16:01	chouser	& (nth (iterate #(filter identity %) [1]) 1000)
16:01	chouser	, (nth (iterate #(filter identity %) [1]) 1000)
16:01	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
16:01	chouser	, (nth (iterate #(filter identity %) [1]) 10)
16:01	clojurebot	(1)
16:02	Crowb4r	amalloy: Oh awesome! Can I get in on these breaking changes!
16:02	Crowb4r	I like to break all sorts of things.
16:03	bartj	, (nth (iterate #(remove identity %) [1]) 1000)
16:04	bartj	, (nth (iterate #(remove identity %) [1]) 1000)
16:04	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
16:04	bartj	chouser, it's actually a remove instead of a filter
16:04	chouser	oh, interesting
16:04	amalloy	chouser, bartj: i don't see how remove instead of filter matters
16:04	chouser	,(nth (iterate #(doall (remove identity %)) [1]) 1000)
16:04	clojurebot	()
16:05	bartj	(remove (set 100-items) couple-of-million-items)
16:05	chouser	bartj: that should be ok
16:05	chouser	note it's the remove-of-a-remove-of-a-remove-etc where all the steps are lazy that is the problem.
16:06	chouser	a single lazy remove on a very large seq should be just fine
16:06	chouser	or making each step eager
16:06	chouser	as I did with doall above
16:06	bartj	chouser, it's the last step in a "loop", so my guess is that it would not be a nested-lazy
16:07	bartj	chouser, I could be wrong
16:07	amalloy	bartj: yes it will
16:07	chouser	if you're recuring on the result of a remove, and doing a remove on that, they will nest
16:07	amalloy	(remove foo blah) returns a lazy seq representing a remove, which you then loop on, and layer another remove
16:07	bartj	ah!
16:08	chouser	if you don't actually need the laziness, drop that doall in there and the problem should disappear
16:09	amalloy	or gradually build up a set to use as the remove-predicate, then do one remove at the end
16:10	Crowb4r	geesh, I have been subscribed to the mailing list for about 10 months now and my clojure mail filter has nearly 12k in messages.
16:10	bartj	I thought Clojure tail recursion doesn't use a stack :(
16:10	chouser	bartj: it doesn't
16:10	amalloy	bartj: it doesn't, but that's not relevant
16:11	bartj	then, I am a bit non-plussed regarding the stack overflow
16:11	chouser	bartj: the stack overflows when you try to realize deeply nested lazy-seq-producers
16:12	amalloy	bartj: you are using a stack, by layering N lazy filters on top of each other
16:12	bartj	hmm, ok
16:12	amalloy	then, when your loop/recur is finally done building this huge list of things to do, you realize the sequence all at once
16:12	amalloy	which involves burrowing through the whole stack you made
16:12	chouser	in order to get the first item in (remove f s1), remove must force at least one step of s1
16:13	chouser	if s1 is itself (remove f s2), then s2 must be forced, etc.
16:13	chouser	so a single (first s0) can potentially cause a deep stack to be created trying to find an actual item that none of the layered removes is going to filter out
16:15	bartj	amalloy, I thought we were being clever using (remove (set 100-set) million-items) in a loop
16:15	bartj	but, I guess I was wrong, after all
16:16	chouser	that part is ok. it's only a problem if million-items is actually a lazy seq on a lazy seq on a lazy seq...
16:17	bartj	chouser, hmm, ok; would you say Clojure is ill-suited for this task of
16:17	bartj	removing a small number of items from a very large set; until the large set is empty
16:18	chouser	no, I wouldn't say that. I would say that as you push limits of the JVM (stack size, heap size, etc.) it's important to understand the implications of what you're actually doing when designing your solution.
16:20	chouser	I couldn't recommend a different solution without understanding better what you're trying to do
16:20	amalloy	chouser: right. so far the best solution for bartj's task is (let [million-items []]) - just empty the large list :)
16:21	chouser	heh
16:23	chouser	bartj: are you trying to discover the minimal set that includes all items from your million-items?
16:23	bartj	chouser, no
16:24	bartj	I have a million-items and after each iteration about 20-50 of them get deleted/removed
16:25	amalloy	bartj: the question is, what are you actually doing that causes you to want to remove 50 elements in each step. then maybe chouser (or i?) can point out a better algorithm
16:25	bartj	I need to remove these 20-50 items from the million-items until there are no items in the million items
16:25	chouser	so in the end, each item in have to be compared against every one of the 20-50 for every iteration until it is found
16:27	bartj	well, yes
16:27	amalloy	then perhaps you want a lazy-seq of all the 20-50 sets, and then map once over your million-items to see which of those lazy-seqs it matches first
16:28	chouser	ok, then simply wrapping your (remove ...) so that it's (doall (remove ...)) will solve the stack overflow and not cause any more total computation than what you would have to do anyway
16:29	bartj	chouser, yes, but I still find that really slow
16:29	Crowb4r	So who exactly are the mainline devs on clojure?
16:30	chouser	well, that's new question then
16:30	bartj	I am trying to do a doall after say 20 iterations or x iterations
16:30	chouser	bartj: I doubt that'll be faster
16:30	bartj	but, I am not sure if it would entirely help
16:32	amalloy	chouser: does my proposal make sense? i'm not sure, myself
16:32	chouser	amalloy: seems vaguely plausible, given what we know of the problem.
16:33	chouser	bartj: where are these 20-50 item batches coming from?
16:34	bartj	ok I'll come clean and explain the full problem
16:34	bartj	I have a list of a million songs and I am deduping them based on some fingerprint
16:35	bartj	where a fingerprint uniquely identifies the song
16:35	bartj	there will be a couple of fingerprints/songs that are the exact copies of each other
16:35	bartj	and hence will be removed in the next iteration
16:36	bartj	so hence I have this:
16:38	bartj	(loop [f fingerprints] 1. remove duplicates of "f" 2. get new set of fingerprints (ie. fingerprints - "f") 3. recur with the new set of fingerprints
16:38	bartj	chouser, the 20-50 item batches are the duplicates in the above explaination
16:38	chouser	so you will eventually have to fingerprint every song
16:38	bartj	yes
16:40	chouser	,(let [songs (repeatedly 1000 #(rand-int 1e8)), fingerpseq (map #(rem % 10) songs), fingerpset (zipmap fingerpseq songs)] (vals fingerpset))
16:40	clojurebot	(82365500 36210571 29167172 10757843 66017534 81361065 90174516 12131347 14368608 22495869)
16:41	devn	:)
16:41	chouser	s/fingerpset/fingerpmap/
16:41	sexpbot	<chouser> ,(let [songs (repeatedly 1000 #(rand-int 1e8)), fingerpseq (map #(rem % 10) songs), fingerpmap (zipmap fingerpseq songs)] (vals fingerpmap))
16:42	chouser	that will lazily fingerprint each song, building a map of each fingerprint to exactly one song, returning a seq of one song per fingerprint
16:43	bartj	hmm, ok
16:43	bartj	the main point is that I would be needing to efficiently remove the fingerprints in each iteration?
16:43	chouser	where songs are represented by random numbers, using their last digit as the fingerprint
16:43	amalloy	chouser: the zipmap ruins all the laziness, doesn't it?
16:44	amalloy	i guess you have to do that anyway
16:44	chouser	amalloy: the zipmap causes the full list of unique songs and fingerprints to be held in memory in the end. I don't see any way around that really.
16:45	chouser	but the laziness means duplicate songs and fingerprints are not kept, for whatever that's worth.
16:45	amalloy	right
16:45	chouser	bartj: I don't yet see the value in doing "batches" of 20-50 or whatever.
16:50	dalet	anyone know who I mail to get this page updated? http://clojure.org/community
16:50	devn	I'd post something to the list. I think at one point it was Rich, but don't quote me on that.
16:51	dalet	ok cheers
16:51	devn	The list seems like a good way to go so if someone else can do the work...
16:51	technomancy	took me four or five times to get my update in
16:51	bartj	chouser, my train of thought could be wrong
16:52	devn	technomancy: who'd you bug? rich?
16:52	dnolen	devn: I think stuart halloway has access to.
16:52	devn	ah, that'd make sense
16:52	bartj	but, here goes:
16:53	technomancy	devn: I don't remember who ended up actually updating it, I just chimed in every time that page was mentioned on the list, and then one day I checked and it was there.
16:53	devn	btw, I'm defn, but I'm trying to unify my twitter handle and what not
16:53	devn	err "consolidate" might be a better way to phrase it...
16:53	devn	technomancy: ah :)
16:53	bartj	the songs have to be deduped, meaning that a couple of songs are duplicate
16:54	bartj	so I am currently capturing a fingerprint expanding that to multiple songs (and hence I would have multiple fingerprints)
16:54	bartj	and then remove these multiple fingerprints from the original 1M list
16:54	bartj	makes sense?
16:55	devn	bartj: im coming in late here, but is this a set or a map?
16:55	chouser	I don't know what you mean by expanding a fingerprint to multiple songs
16:57	bartj	devn, the fingerprints?
16:58	devn	bartj: what does the structure look like?
16:58	bartj	devn, it's a lazy seq
16:59	devn	bartj: so it's a list, a vector, a map, or a set
16:59	devn	hehe
17:00	devinus	this lisp journey i'm on is exhausting.
17:01	devn	devinus: but rewarding!
17:01	bartj	list
17:01	Crowb4r	it's ok my hand cramps up as well from all the ()
17:01	devn	bartj: i dont know enough about your problem, im sorry
17:01	Crowb4r	:p
17:01	devn	oh god, stop with the parentheses jokes!
17:01	Crowb4r	:'(
17:02	devn	i heard a really funny quote by raganwald (a prominent figure in the ruby community (and proponent of functional programming techniques))
17:02	devn	"They call them s-expressions, but if you're used to Lisp s-expressions, a Lisp s-expressions is like Ikea or Scandinavian furniture design, and Ruby's s-expressions are like what you find in the dumpster after Goodwill has picked through it and decided they don't even wanna sell that stuff."
17:03	Crowb4r	I switched to this keyboard layout just to make my life easier in lisp and pretty much anything no python. http://robey.lag.net/2008/09/20/coder-dvorak.html
17:03	Crowb4r	devn: awesome
17:04	bartj	chouser, amalloy I don't think I can thank you enough for hearing me out /helping me for more than two hours
17:04	chouser	bartj: you're quite welcome, but your time's about up. Hope you figure it out!
17:05	devn	I really wish OOP languages would be more willing to try out FP techniques and solutions.
17:05	bartj	chouser, I think it is quite impossible to attempt explaining an algorithmic problem here
17:05	Crowb4r	C# is trying as long as it's over 3.0
17:05	devn	The melding of the two seems like such an important move for all of us.
17:05	Crowb4r	it supports lambda functions at least. :)
17:05	bartj	chouser, thanks again
17:06	tonyl	scala blends those 2
17:06	tonyl	also javascript
17:06	tonyl	and many more, i think
17:06	brehaut	and F#
17:06	devn	yes but as you dig deeper you realize how full of holes those implementations are
17:06	Crowb4r	Python 3.0 was like an FU to Lambda functions iirc.
17:07	devn	tonyl: i dont know much of scala so I can't speak to that. All I know is that it looks like writing Java, and I don't want to do that.
17:07	Crowb4r	PHP tried so hard to do first class functions and closures, but like all things PHP it just fell to it's doom.
17:07	devn	I want a sane object oriented language with hygenic macros and the whole ball of yarn.
17:08	devn	Scala is... not what I had in mind...
17:08	brehaut	devn: clojure then?
17:08	Crowb4r	at least it uses a nice actor message passing
17:08	Crowb4r	in scala
17:08	brehaut	devn: (only a half joking)
17:09	devn	brehaut: well actually no, you're right on target
17:09	devn	clojure seems to be the only one that is combining the two
17:09	devn	i wish more people were experimenting with that idea in established languages
17:09	Crowb4r	it's also taking flac for it, mainly because it's different.
17:10	devn	yeah i've been having this argument with people i work with -- they say this silly thing "embrace your constraints"
17:10	Crowb4r	I show off clojure or talk about it and it's just an uphill battle in most of my personal projects.
17:10	devn	which means: "we accept our problem as a solution"
17:11	devn	it reminds me of the "bike shed" toxicity problem
17:11	devn	everyone all of a sudden started calling everything a bike shed in order to squash debate
17:11	devn	all it does is covertly promote academic inbreeding and intellectual laziness
17:11	Crowb4r	The STM is so nice for handling my transactions. I love it.
17:12	devn	yeah, but people dont know wtf it does until they learn how it works
17:12	devn	when the only tool you have is a hammer (objects)
17:12	brehaut	devn: wadler's law to the rescue
17:12	devn	everything looks like a nail
17:12	Crowb4r	devn: yeah, I deal with that with a piticular C++ programmer and a PHP one.
17:12	devn	im confident we're all smarter than everyone else
17:12	devn	;)
17:12	Crowb4r	which are the worst due to having the shitties standards.
17:13	Crowb4r	sorry my bad on the cursing
17:13	Crowb4r	trying to explain the STM over locking is like talking to a wall.
17:13	devn	no shame in cursing. i placed a curse on Perl.
17:14	devinus	what's the current work going into clojure right now?
17:14	Crowb4r	Time to leave work, but be back to talk more in a little bit.
17:14	devinus	i'm guessing clojure-in-clojure ?
17:14	Crowb4r	closure in clojure
17:14	amalloy	devinus: performance
17:15	amalloy	i think
17:15	devn	pods!
17:16	Adamant	liberation from the JVM paradigm
17:16	devn	Java suffrage
17:16	devn	so to speak
17:17	devn	actually no, i think that is absolutely the wrong way to use suffrage after a brief google search
17:17	devn	we want to take away Java's right to vote
17:17	Adamant	s/Java/Oracle
17:17	devn	^^
17:18	devinus	interesting
17:18	devinus	so is clojure going to start wrapping java methods?
17:18	Adamant	they are very good at making money. that's about all that can be said in their favor.
17:19	amalloy	guys, how is this discussion productive? clojure ML is having trouble with unfriendly attitudes, and now all that's being said in #clojure is slamming other languages and/or companies
17:19	devn	devinus: nono, the idea is to continue the current trend of making java irrelevant
17:19	brehaut	amalloy: right on
17:20	devn	amalloy: i sympathize, but there is some legitimate paranoia around oracle's control of the JVM
17:20	Adamant	amalloy: I talk smack about Oracle pretty much everywhere, but if it's not desired here I'll can it.
17:20	brehaut	also am i the only person who reads 'clojure ML' and immediately thinks of the family of static function languages?
17:20	Adamant	brehaut: no
17:20	devn	brehaut: definitely not :D
17:20	amalloy	brehaut: yeah, me too tbh. but i see it written so often...
17:20	devn	amalloy: it's trendy
17:21	devn	trends are a funny thing in any lisp community
17:21	devinus	what's clojure ML?
17:21	tonyl	devinus: ditto
17:21	Adamant	mailing list
17:21	devinus	ah
17:21	devn	haha
17:21	devn	Clojure in ML in ML on the ML
17:22	Adamant	I do think people should consider Oracle's existing rep in the MySQL community before getting too friendly with them, though
17:22	Adamant	and how it got that way
17:23	devn	Guy Steele works for Oracle... They can't be all bad. Right guys? Right?
17:23	Adamant	the problem isn't with the ex-Sun guys.
17:24	technomancy	Steele won't last long
17:24	devinus	clojure in an ml language would actually be interesting
17:24	devn	Clojure in metalanguage in machine language on the mailing list, in markup language.
17:24	devinus	technomancy: lol, i was watching some interview with steele and a bunch of other language devs and he was talking smack about erlang
17:25	devn	devinus: from strange loop or?
17:25	Leonidas	why doesn't this work: (re-groups (re-matcher #"(a)b" "aba"))
17:25	devinus	devn: dont remember
17:25	devn	the panel with josh bloch and company?
17:25	devinus	yeah
17:25	Leonidas	I get an IllegalStateExtension
17:25	devn	heh -- they all were hating on Perl IIRC.
17:25	devinus	he basically misunderstands the whole let-it-fail philosophy with just "writing crap code"
17:26	amalloy	Leonidas: re-groups doesn't call .match
17:26	devn	but amalloy is right -- hate for other languages and companies and all of that. it's easy to descend from informed discussion into a lynch mob of smart people (who are notoriously good at being critical), bashing everything to hell
17:27	Adamant	nobody likes a c.l.l. grade discussion, true.
17:27	devn	one thing clojure has avoided is the whole "we're better than you" atmosphere that has surrounded other lisp communities
17:27	devn	and it has been an incredible strength
17:27	devn	so let's keep that going strong.
17:28	devinus	i'm currently learning CL and then plan to move to scheme and then get more into clojure after that
17:28	brehaut	devn: i think its hard to maintain that sort of attitude when a large chunk of the thought that has gone into clojure has come from other languages.
17:28	opqdonut	devinus: why on earth?
17:28	devinus	just so i can argue with facts :)
17:29	devinus	opqdonut: ^
17:29	devn	and, as should be noted, #clojure-casual does exist
17:29	tonyl	Leonidas: maybe this ##(re-find (re-matcher #"(a)b" "aba"))
17:29	sexpbot	⟹ ["ab" "a"]
17:29	devn	opqdonut: knowing your history is a good thing.
17:29	devn	ive dug into scheme lately
17:29	opqdonut	well, sure
17:29	devn	clojure is my "gets things done" language
17:30	Leonidas	tonyl: uhm, but that is not the group
17:30	opqdonut	I'm just thinking that learning three wholly different languages would give more bang for the buck
17:30	tonyl	it returns the string then the matched groups, in this case a
17:30	opqdonut	for instance clojure, lua, haskell
17:30	devn	opqdonut: in some sense i think you're right
17:30	Leonidas	amalloy: uhm, I'm pretty new to Clojure -- what does that mean.
17:31	devn	but there is an argument against that
17:31	amalloy	Leonidas: it's an artifact of the java matcher classes
17:31	devn	opqdonut: reading common lisp is a good way to understand how to write even better clojure code
17:31	devn	because it's (in many ways), the same thing
17:32	Leonidas	amalloy: what do I need to do with it then?
17:32	Leonidas	call .match by myself?
17:32	amalloy	Leonidas: see tonyl's suggestion?
17:32	LauJensen	Just a quick heads up. ClojureQL is now in its final form for the 1.0 release, so what you see now on Github/Clojars is what will be release around 1/1/11 as 1.0 final. http://github.com/LauJensen/clojureql
17:32	brehaut	LauJensen: congrats
17:33	LauJensen	brehaut: thanks :)
17:33	AWizzArd	sounds good
17:33	Crowb4r	you guys see this? http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-programmers.jpg
17:33	amalloy	Leonidas: and http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/regex/Matcher.html#start%28%29 mentions that you need to call find() every time you want to look for a new match instead of ask about the old one
17:33	Crowb4r	SFW btw
17:34	tonyl	Thanks LauJensen for such a project, not only helps me in my sql endeavors but i look at the code more often to understand better clojure coding
17:34	LauJensen	tonyl: you're welcome, thanks for trying it out :)
17:34	Leonidas	amalloy: yeah, tonyl's suggestion does not work when I try to match multiple things
17:34	amalloy	Leonidas: ##(doc re-seq)
17:34	sexpbot	⟹ "([re s]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive matches of pattern in string, using java.util.regex.Matcher.find(), each such match processed with re-groups."
17:35	Leonidas	amalloy: uhm, that looks interesting
17:36	amalloy	&(doall (re-seq #"(a\|b)c" "rabc macl"))
17:36	sexpbot	⟹ (["bc" "b"] ["ac" "a"])
17:37	raek	I have never used any of clojure's re functions other than 're-find', 're-seq' and 're-pattern'...
17:37	Crowb4r	what ever happpened to clojurebot?
17:37	raek	he's still here
17:37	raek	,1
17:38	clojurebot	1
17:38	Crowb4r	ohh ok
17:39	Clinteger	what is the first character of sexpbot's output?
17:39	raek	a long implication arrow
17:39	Leonidas	amalloy: ok, re-seq seems to be exactly what I was looking for, thanks a lot!
17:39	Clinteger	hm, i cant see it in this font :(
17:39	amalloy	Clinteger: \u27F9
17:40	raek	http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/27f9/index.htm
17:40	Clinteger	thanks. doing $asc() gave me...something way different :p
17:43	celal	hi all, I have a question about lein
17:43	Clinteger	what fonts do you guys use? I only have one that can use it :\|
17:43	Clinteger	show*
17:43	celal	when lein install is executed
17:44	celal	I'm seeing a message that I should only see if the code is actually executed
17:44	devn	LauJensen: what about some sort of activerecord-esque abstraction on top of clojureql?
17:44	celal	shouldn't "lein install" only compile the code?
17:44	devn	LauJensen: (find_by_id 4), (find_by_name "hello"), etc.
17:44	technomancy	celal: you can't compile code in Clojure without executing it
17:44	LauJensen	devn: I believe what I have now is better
17:45	celal	hmm, so it is indeed going through my clj files, executing them to compile java classes from them, and then packaging the classes?
17:46	amalloy	celal: it has to. if you want something to not happen at compile time, then wrap it in a function which you only call at runtime, say from -main
17:46	celal	that's indeed what I am doing
17:46	celal	I'm reading from a properties file in a function
17:46	raek	Clinteger: the DejaVu family has very wide unicode coverage and includes that one
17:47	Clinteger	it is also ugly ^^
17:47	celal	but somehow I see the error message from that function during "lein install"
17:47	mrBliss`	Clinteger: Inconsolata or Envy Code R
17:47	Clinteger	well i'm currently using calibri :<
17:48	Clinteger	i dont like to irc in fixed width
17:49	raek	I use Inconsolata for my terminal
17:49	celal	hmm, I think I have an idea now
17:49	raek	I don't know if it includes that char, or if it falls back to DejaVu
17:49	celal	I have a "def" somewhere, that calls that function
17:49	celal	so I assume that function is executed because of the variable declaration
17:50	raek	yes
17:50	celal	I'll replace the variable declaration with something else
17:50	celal	thanks guys
17:50	raek	when clojure code is AOT compiled, the files are evaluated
17:51	technomancy	celal: in most cases you can avoid AOT compilation if you don't need an executable jar
17:51	raek	I guess one could see compilation as evaluation that also stores the generated classes to files
17:52	celal	sorry, what does AOT stand for?
17:52	zakwilson	I just got a recruitment email on linkedin from dealer.com that mentioned they consider clojure experience a plus. I thought the channel would like to know.
17:52	raek	celal: Ahead-Of-Tme
17:52	raek	*Time
17:52	celal	ahh, I see
17:53	celal	hmm, is there a way to ask lein not to do AOT?
17:53	technomancy	celal: it only performs AOT if you ask it to, but including a :main namespace counts as asking.
17:53	celal	I think I wouldn't lose much by doing the compilation once on the fly during execution
17:53	celal	got it
17:53	celal	now it makes sense
17:53	celal	I do have a main
18:17	ossareh	lo all
18:33	AWizzArd	~seen rhickey
18:33	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:36	tonyl	$seen rhickey
18:36	sexpbot	rhickey was last seen quitting 2 weeks and 1 day ago.
18:39	celal	quit
18:46	ossareh	where would I find a good instructive piece on the scoping of functions attached to defrecords? I'm pretty hit and miss with function resolution with my records; (defprotocol A (m1 [this])) (defrecord B [] A (m1[this] (prn "B-m1"))). If these are in namespace "myns" I can access the m1 function on an instance of B - but in other namespaces where these are imported they're not always available (notable difference is in test cases.
18:54	raek	ossareh: the protocol methods are vars just like those introduced by defn. you require/use the methods of the protocol, rather than the record
18:55	raek	the namespace of the defrecord must of course be loaded too, to make that record type's implementation of the protocol available
18:57	raek	the record type must also be :imported (like a java class) if you want to access the constructor without the package prefix from another namespace
19:00	raek	ossareh: but if you have those defninition you showed in the same namespace, I don't see why using/requiring the protocol methods should not work.
19:05	ossareh	thanks raek , with those examples I may have simplified it such that it does actually work. From what you've written I seem to get it
19:06	ossareh	i.e. I'm using and importing according to what you have written - I think I might be missing something super simple - I'm now spellchecking my imports / etc :)
19:10	ossareh	this was all working until I restructured the project, so I've brought in an issue at that point I guess.
19:12	raek	it can be a good idea to clear all namespaces (simplest way is perhaps to just restart the repl) every now and then to check that you haven't forgot a use or require somewhere
19:13	raek	I tend to have to fix a lot of require/use problems when I restart my bot
19:13	raek	after I have moved around functions
19:14	ossareh	raek: ye - I just fixed it, thanks for your help. I was being told it couldn't find an imported class, though I was unsure why, it seems there is some subtle relationship between using a namespace and the records in that namespace.
19:15	ossareh	s/and the records/and importing the records/
19:15	sexpbot	<ossareh> raek: ye - I just fixed it, thanks for your help. I was being told it couldn't find an imported class, though I was unsure why, it seems there is some subtle relationship between using a namespace and importing the records in that namespace.
19:15	ossareh	sexpbot: you shouldn't do that unless asked :)
19:17	Raynes	Well, you did ask him!
19:17	Raynes	He certainly didn't tell you to send a message to IRC starting with s/// ;)
19:18	Raynes	Nonetheless, if you don't desire that functionality, you should be able to just prefix the message with a space. He should ignore that.
19:18	brehaut	curious that a piece of code now has a gender identity
19:19	Raynes	brehaut: He is androgynous. amalloy refers to him as a 'she', for example.
19:19	amalloy	i do not
19:19	technomancy	"he" is gender-neutral in English
19:20	brehaut	kids, learn from my fail
19:24	Raynes	technomancy: Seriously?
19:25	amalloy	Raynes: in a dictionary, yes. in a feminist newsletter, probably no
19:25	technomancy	Raynes: depends who you ask I guess. it's more like gender-undetermined.
19:25	Raynes	I learned something new today.
19:25	technomancy	maybe it's archaic
19:25	technomancy	but I like archaic things
19:26	brehaut	technomancy: i think the caveat is that it has a gender specified when it used to reference a specific person?
19:26	amalloy	technomancy: it's still technically correct
19:26	amalloy	brehaut: "If a person wants to do X, then he should do Y"
19:26	Raynes	brehaut: Or specific thing? Now, I sure do like sexpbot, but I still don't think of him as a person.
19:26	amalloy	is the correct gender-neutral phrasing, even though most people will tell you it should be "he or she"
19:26	clojurebot	max people is 317
19:27	Raynes	clojurebot: Cool story bro.
19:27	clojurebot	bartj: it's not broken. Unless you know the performance hit there is actually a problem, I'd recommend leaving it alone.
19:28	brehaut	gentlemen pick your side: prescriptive or descriptive
19:28	brehaut	personally, im on whatever side chomsky is on
19:30	amalloy	hah
19:30	ossareh	I tend to "she"
19:31	ossareh	in the limit case it just wins you point :)
19:31	ossareh	s/point/poins/
19:36	pdk	xgoff i know you're gonna read this
19:37	pdk	so imma smile for the camera next time you google my name and #clojure
19:37	pdk	that is all
20:22	Leonidas	where should I ask if I want a small code review?
20:23	dnolen	Leonidas: here or on the mailing list.
20:24	Leonidas	dnolen: ok, thanks. Will ask tomorrow since its already 2 AM here :)
20:27	Leonidas	or, ok, I can read the mailinglist replies tomorrow as well…
20:30	scottj	Is there a function foo in clojure or contrib where (foo first inc [1 2 3]) => [2 2 3] and (foo butlast dec [1 2 3]) => [0 1 3] ? ideas for names for foo? right now I've got update-list and mapseq
20:32	technomancy	scottj: that doesn't really make sense since first returns a single element, while butlast returns a seq
20:32	technomancy	it's not parallel
20:32	technomancy	maybe if you replaced first with (partial take 1)
20:33	technomancy	even then, you can't really take a function and map it to a subvec like that
20:33	scottj	well right now I've got it taking :first :butlast :rest and :last and there's separate code for each.
20:34	scottj	how come?
20:34	technomancy	(update-in x [0] inc) works because you can assoc onto x in position 0
20:35	scottj	http://paste.lisp.org/display/117948
20:35	technomancy	but calling (first x) returns a value that you can't correlate back to x
20:35	technomancy	there's no setf-place, to use CL terminology
20:42	miltondsilva	Hi, does somebody knows why planetclojure isn't being updated?
20:53	ossareh	miltondsilva: I'm not sure - what are you hoping to get from it? clojure.org has a whole bunch or information, as does clojuredocs.org
20:54	ossareh	miltondsilva: and the first google result for planet clojure turns up http://planet.clojure.in/ which seems pretty update to date.
20:54	technomancy	ossareh: no, it hasn't updated in over a week
20:55	ossareh	technomancy: I'm unfamiliar with how up to date it is usually.
20:55	miltondsilva	ossareh: planetclojure is a collection of blog posts... that's were I stay updated
20:56	ossareh	ah, I see - it harvests other sources into its list.
20:57	miltondsilva	yes... well.. I could do it my self... just add all blogs to a rss feed.. but then I would not know how to get new feeds :(
20:58	miltondsilva	(new feeds = new blog)
20:58	miltondsilva	blogs*
20:59	ossareh	miltondsilva: fair play, I'd not understood what it was initially - now I see what it is I see your issue. email alexott at gmail.com or b.ghose at freegeek.in ?
21:00	miltondsilva	not yet... but now I'm feeling inclined to do so
21:02	miltondsilva	ossareh: sorry.. should use your name in the responses cause you might be expecting the alert from your client
21:02	brehaut	is there a way to get clojure.xml/emit to not emit trailing new lines after each element?
21:11	miltondsilva	brehaut: not sure.. but you could map the function trim-newline to the result
21:11	brehaut	miltondsilva: thats only going to remove the trailing newline from the whole document, rather than each element
21:12	brehaut	looking at the code i think the answer is that im out of luck
21:16	miltondsilva	brehaut: it's a cheat trick.. but you could copy the original func.. and change println to print.. but you probably already figured that
21:16	brehaut	miltondsilva: yeah i had thought of that and im not super happy. maybe there is something magical in contrib
21:16	brehaut	you'd think it wouldnt matter
21:16	brehaut	but it appears pythons xml-rpc lib is a bit picky
21:41	brehaut	miltondsilva: copy and paste wins :/
21:44	miltondsilva	brehaut: I also hate that feeling.. especially in clojure(because I always think I'm missing something)
21:44	brehaut	miltondsilva: that is exactly the feeling i have
21:45	brehaut	miltondsilva: on the other hand, i think xml-rpc's rather (ahem) brief spec might be to blame here
21:47	miltondsilva	brehaut: can't use something else?
21:47	brehaut	miltondsilva: sadly no
21:50	amalloy	miltondsilva: i think Raynes wrote a clojure xml-rpc library
21:51	brehaut	amalloy: really? ive got one half done
21:51	brehaut	Raynes: ping?
21:51	amalloy	brehaut: https://github.com/Raynes/clj-xmlrpc
21:52	brehaut	amalloy: im going to be kicking myself if this is older than mine
21:52	amalloy	brehaut: dec 6
21:52	Raynes	brehaut: ?
21:52	brehaut	amalloy: man talk about your syncronous development
21:52	brehaut	Raynes: you are also writing an xml-rpc lib
21:53	Raynes	brehaut: Yessir.
21:53	brehaut	Raynes: lets join forces
21:53	brehaut	https://github.com/brehaut/necessary-evil/
21:53	miltondsilva	brehaut: got to love the name
21:53	brehaut	miltondsilva: cheers :) it did have a sensible name, then i got some hate on for the spec
21:54	brehaut	Raynes: is yours both client and server or just client?
21:54	Raynes	It's just a client.
21:55	Raynes	Is yours a server implementation?
21:55	brehaut	Raynes: its both
21:55	brehaut	although the server imp is incomplete
21:55	brehaut	im building it ontop of ring
21:55	Raynes	The client isn't on top of ring is it?
21:55	brehaut	nope
21:56	brehaut	clj-http
21:56	Raynes	If your client implementation is more complete/stable than mine (which is very likely), I'll just deprecate clj-xmlrpc.
21:56	Raynes	Doubt anyone is using it anyway.
21:56	Raynes	I'm not even using it yet.
21:57	brehaut	well, im not exactly using mine either. onyl just got the client talking to the python imp today
21:57	rata_	hi all
21:58	brehaut	hi rata
21:58	rata_	hi brehaut =)
21:58	Raynes	brehaut: If you see anything you'd like to steal in my implementation, steal away. I feel much better about your implementation than my own simply because I have very little interest in XML-RPC, and I probably never would have implemented a server-side unless I needed it badly.
21:59	brehaut	Raynes: i will do that
21:59	Raynes	brehaut: In any case, as long as your implementation is 'working', I feel safe deprecating my own in favor of it.
21:59	brehaut	Raynes: however: feel free to tell me ive done stupid things as im still a bit of a clj noob
21:59	Raynes	I'll take a look at the implementation tonight.
21:59	Raynes	:>
21:59	brehaut	sweet as
22:00	Raynes	Not that mine was pretty...
22:00	Raynes	brehaut: Could you show me an example of a request and the result of that request through necessary-evil? I'd like to compare it to clj-xmlrpc's output.
22:01	brehaut	Raynes: sure
22:03	brehaut	Raynes: user=> (-> (MethodCall. :hello ["world"]) methodcall/unparse emit with-out-str)
22:04	brehaut	"<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?>\n<methodCall><methodName>hello</methodName><params><param><value><string>world</string></value></param></params></methodCall>"
22:05	Raynes	I'm actually interested in the parse output.
22:05	brehaut	in terms of what the xml-rpc types get turned into?
22:06	Raynes	Right. xml-rpc would return a map with a :params key where each type had been parsed into the proper Clojure type.
22:06	brehaut	yeah
22:06	Raynes	Did you make dates parse into joda dates? I did that.
22:07	brehaut	<string> and nothing become a java string, <array> become vectors, <i4>s and <int> into Integers,
22:07	brehaut	yup joda dates
22:07	brehaut	structs into maps
22:07	Raynes	hi5
22:07	brehaut	hi5
22:07	Raynes	My implementation is very multimethodish.
22:08	brehaut	i use multis for the way in, and protocols for the way out
22:08	Raynes	I used multis for both.
22:08	brehaut	the guts of that stuff is inside value.clj
22:08	Raynes	I like your implementation.
22:08	Raynes	It looks neat.
22:09	brehaut	hmm. i apparently missed out serialisation of base64
22:09	brehaut	cheere
22:09	brehaut	s/re/rs/
22:09	sexpbot	<brehaut> cheers
22:09	Raynes	Mine was rather throw-together and "Hey, I don't particularly care about xml-rpc, but I need to parse it, so...
22:09	Raynes	"
22:09	brehaut	yeah its like that eh.
22:10	Raynes	brehaut: I handled base64 by decoding it and turning it into a byte array.
22:10	brehaut	i am apparently using org.apache.commons.codec.binary.Base64 to decode it?
22:10	Raynes	Well, the other way around.
22:11	Raynes	(defmethod value-to-clj :base64 [{[i] :content}] (Base64/decodeBase64 (.getBytes i)))
22:11	Raynes	Encoding it was (defmethod clj-to-value (Class/forName "[B") [x] [:base64 (String. (Base64/encodeBase64 x))])
22:12	brehaut	Raynes: can i use that Class/forName stuff in a protocol definition?
22:12	Raynes	I have no clue. That stuff scares me.
22:12	brehaut	likewise
22:13	Raynes	My library was a prerequisite to a blogging library that is still in the planning phase.
22:13	brehaut	Raynes: likewise
22:14	brehaut	I started off wanting it for pingback
22:14	brehaut	but i may also end up using it for metaweblog
22:14	Raynes	I have plans to write a blog editor in Clojure.
22:14	brehaut	Raynes: i got hold of marsedit for mac os x in a bundle so im just going to use that
22:14	Raynes	Everything sucks on Linux.
22:15	brehaut	aint that the truth ;)
22:15	brehaut	im currently ssh port forwarding couchdb from my server to my local machine and using the futon DB admin to blog :P
22:15	Raynes	Well, as far as blog editors go.
22:15	Raynes	:p
22:15	brehaut	heh
22:16	Raynes	Everybody swears by scribefire, but it "cleans up" html and mutilates any pasted code.
22:16	brehaut	yuck
22:17	Raynes	brehaut: I bet you could use that Class/forName stuff in extend-protocol.
22:17	Raynes	Have you tried it yet?
22:17	brehaut	i havent
22:17	brehaut	i hadnt thought to do it until you mentioned it above
22:18	Raynes	Actually, it probably doesn't. Looks like it expects a class name. defmethod just expects something.
22:19	Raynes	Well, it accepts interfaces as well, but you see my point.
22:21	brehaut	hmm no
22:21	brehaut	i get java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Character (value.clj:90)
22:22	Raynes	Shame.
22:22	brehaut	yeah
22:22	brehaut	squicky java edgecases :(
22:26	brehaut	maybe i will have to brave the mailing list
22:35	brehaut	Raynes: got it. just used 'extend'
22:35	brehaut	(extend (Class/forName "[B")
22:35	brehaut	ValueTypeElem
22:35	Raynes	brehaut: !
22:35	brehaut	{:value-type-elem (fn [this] (elem :base64 [(String. (Base64/encodeBase64 this))]))})
22:35	Raynes	Nice. :>
22:36	brehaut	it works but i cant help but wonder if there is a nicer way
22:41	brehaut	Raynes: the prxml function you have used, does that take the standard xml structures that clojure.xml works with?
22:44	brehaut	Raynes: apparently not
23:03	timmorgan	How can I know if a script is being run from the command line vs just used by another script?
23:06	lazy1	timmorgan: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/973106/what-is-the-clojure-equivalent-of-the-python-idiom-if-name-main
23:07	timmorgan	lazy1: thank you
23:16	lazy1	No worries, I don't think there is really a good option for that
23:26	technomancy	clojurebot: clj-http is <reply>I think you mean gnir.
23:26	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
23:27	brehaut	technomancy: i wanted to make that joke but didnt think anybody would get it
23:27	brehaut	(inc technomancy)
23:27	sexpbot	⟹ 4
23:28	technomancy	brehaut: I asked mcgrana at the Conj and he said he'd think about renaming it.
23:28	technomancy	I don't think he thought particularly long about it though. =(
23:28	brehaut	awesome :D
23:28	brehaut	not awesome :(
23:36	brehaut	huh. of course ring has an input string for the body. why did that catch me off guard
23:42	brehaut	woo! necessary-evil is two way
23:53	brehaut	I am writing an ANN post for my XML-RPC lib; should i send it to the ring list of the general clojure list?
23:55	dougbradbury	how do I get from here {3 1, 2 2} back to here: (3 2 2). I need a reverse-frequencies function.
23:55	clojurebot	functions are maps
23:57	brehaut	dougbradbury: is order important?
23:57	dougbradbury	no
23:59	dougbradbury	brehaut: no
23:59	brehaut	ok
23:59	amalloy	&(for [[k v] {3 1, 2 2, 0 3}] (repeat v k))
23:59	sexpbot	⟹ ((3) (2 2) (0 0 0))
23:59	brehaut	amalloy: add a flatten around that