#clojure – 2010-11-29

2010-11-29

02:29	raek	I love the smell of homoiconicity in the morning
02:46	Raynes	technomancy: Ever heard of PyTyle?
02:52	pppaul	what would be an easy way to write data with meta data to a file?
02:52	pppaul	will spit record the meta-data?
02:55	replaca	pppaul: see http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/print-meta
02:55	replaca	pppaul: I've never used it, so YMMV
02:56	Raynes	&(doc print-meta)
02:56	sexpbot	⟹ "; If set to logical true, when printing an object, its metadata will also be printed in a form that can be read back by the reader. Defaults to false."
02:56	pppaul	thanks
02:57	replaca	oh, that's right, bots!
02:59	Raynes	&(-> (binding [print-meta true] (pr-str (with-meta [1 2 3] {:doc "ohai"}))) read-string meta)
02:59	sexpbot	⟹ {:doc "ohai"}
02:59	Raynes	Ta da
03:01	raek	&(meta (-> (binding [print-meta true] (pr-str (with-meta [1 2 3] {:doc "ohai"}))) read-string meta))
03:01	sexpbot	⟹ nil
03:01	raek	oh. nevermind. :)
03:02	Raynes	That would have been super meta metadata.
03:05	pppaul	only the best kind
03:06	pppaul	i'm trying to make a backup up a lasyseq using spit... how would i do so?
03:07	pppaul	i tried doall, and doseq
03:07	pppaul	data looks like: ({:custom3114088 "Mr.", :firstname "Blair", :lastname "Collins"})
03:08	pppaul	tried dorun too
03:09	Raynes	I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to print a lazy sequence without unlazifying it.
03:09	pppaul	i would like to do so
03:10	raek	store the data without looking at it? :-)
03:10	Raynes	Since, being lazy, it doesn't know what it's elements are, and if it were to print "I'm stupid", the reader wouldn't know what to read it back as.
03:11	raek	maybe you could traverse the lazy seq and append the string version of each element to the end of a file
03:11	raek	if holding on to the head was the issue
03:11	pppaul	it's not... i gave the whole data
03:11	pppaul	({:custom3114088 "Mr.", :firstname "Blair", :lastname "Collins"})
03:12	pppaul	that is the whole thing i want to save
03:12	Raynes	Oh, you don't care if it remains a lazy seq?
03:12	raek	what do you get in your file?
03:12	pppaul	don't care
03:12	pppaul	nothing, or @lazyseq.clojure... sutff
03:13	raek	hrm, are you calling str on it?
03:13	pppaul	no
03:13	raek	weird
03:13	pppaul	(spit "file.bak" (dorun corrected-contacts))
03:13	raek	dorun returns nil
03:13	pppaul	yeah
03:13	Raynes	&(pr-str (lazy-seq [1 2 3 4]))
03:13	sexpbot	⟹ "(1 2 3 4)"
03:13	Raynes	Use pr-str
03:13	Raynes	That's what all the cool kids do.
03:14	pppaul	i'll give it a shot
03:14	raek	weird! I can see in the source that it uses 'str' to make a string from the form
03:14	raek	which is wrong
03:14	pppaul	bug?
03:15	raek	looks like it
03:17	raek	I'll make a ticket
03:18	pppaul	the last issue i have is backing up the metadata
03:18	raek	,(doc spit)
03:19	raek	&(doc spit)
03:19	sexpbot	⟹ "([f content & options]); Opposite of slurp. Opens f with writer, writes content, then closes f. Options passed to clojure.java.io/writer."
03:19	raek	&(doc slurp)
03:19	sexpbot	⟹ "([f & opts]); Reads the file named by f using the encoding enc into a string and returns it."
03:19	pppaul	(#^{:id 324234} {:custom3114088 "Mr.", :firstname "Blair", :lastname "Collins"})
03:19	raek	pppaul: sorry, I was wrong. spit and slurp does not operate on data structures as I assumed
03:19	raek	they work on strings
03:20	pppaul	oh
03:20	raek	i.e. no bug
03:20	pppaul	so, i should be using something else?
03:20	raek	well, you simply have to convert your seq to a string first
03:20	raek	using pr-str
03:21	raek	,(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str ^{:foo :bar} [1 2 3]))
03:21	raek	&(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str ^{:foo :bar} [1 2 3]))
03:21	sexpbot	⟹ "[1 2 3]"
03:21	pppaul	pr-str wasn't smart enough to walk my structure to print the meta-data of each element
03:22	pppaul	i guess pr-str doesn't print meta data period
03:22	pppaul	maybe there is a smarter way to write out objects
03:22	raek	&(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str (with-meta [1 2 3] {:foo :bar})))
03:22	sexpbot	⟹ "^{:foo :bar} [1 2 3]"
03:23	brehaut	what is the correct way to compare two byte arrays for equivalence?
03:23	raek	brehaut: value or identity?
03:23	brehaut	value
03:23	raek	pppaul: ^
03:23	raek	pr-str can indeed print metadata
03:23	pppaul	ok
03:24	pppaul	not sure why it's not working for me
03:24	raek	but metadata on the code (introduced by ^) is not the same as metadata on the value
03:24	pppaul	oh, i didn't use binding
03:26	raek	&(= (seq (to-array [1 2 3])) (seq (to-array [1 2 3]))) ;; <-- this is one way
03:26	sexpbot	⟹ true
03:26	brehaut	raek, works for me
03:26	brehaut	i only need it for a testcase
03:26	pppaul	i have metadata on the values
03:27	raek	&(java.util.Arrays/equals (to-array [1 2 3]) (to-array [1 2 3])) ;; <-- this seems to be the java way
03:27	sexpbot	⟹ true
03:28	brehaut	raek cheers
03:29	pppaul	so, i used the binding and the metadata still isn't printing out
03:29	pppaul	(binding [print-meta true]
03:29	pppaul	(pr-str corrected-contacts))
03:29	pppaul	(meta (first corrected-contacts))
03:30	pppaul	solve360=> "({:custom3114088 \"Mr.\", :firstname \"Blair\", :lastname \"Collins\"})"
03:30	pppaul	solve360=> {:id 9916966}
03:30	pppaul	the metadata is on the inner hashmap
03:35	raek	also, which version of clojure do you use?
03:38	pppaul	1.2
03:38	pppaul	do i have to walk my structure calling pr-str on each item?
03:40	pppaul	actually, i just tried (map pr-str data) and it didn't work
03:42	pppaul	(binding [print-meta true]
03:42	pppaul	(pr-str (with-meta [123] {:doo 4})))
03:43	raek	&(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str (lazy-seq [(with-meta {:a 1, :b 2} {:foo "bar"})]))))
03:43	sexpbot	⟹ "(^{:foo \"bar\"} {:a 1, :b 2})"
03:43	pppaul	just prints [123]
03:43	raek	&(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str (with-meta [123] {:doo 4})))
03:43	sexpbot	⟹ "^{:doo 4} [123]"
03:43	raek	that is very weird
03:43	pppaul	ok
03:44	pppaul	before i used binding i did (def *print-meta true)
03:44	pppaul	could that be screwing stuff up?
03:44	raek	yes
03:44	pppaul	is there a way to revert?
03:44	raek	then you created your own var called print-meta in your namespace
03:44	raek	yes
03:44	pppaul	^_^
03:44	raek	(ns-unmap 'your-ns 'print-meta)
03:44	raek	(refer-clojrue)
03:44	raek	(refer-clojure)
03:45	pppaul	ok
03:45	pppaul	both those, or just the last one?
03:45	raek	the repl is in a binding form that rebinds the usual earmuffed vars
03:45	raek	so you can change it with set!
03:45	raek	ns-umap to remove your
03:46	raek	refer-clojure to add clojure's
03:46	pppaul	thanks so much, that fixed things :D
03:46	pppaul	i'm so silly
03:46	raek	(set! print-meta true)
03:47	pppaul	spit is spitting good things
03:47	raek	np.
03:49	raek	if you read it back using slurp and read-string, you might want to bind read-eval to false for security reasons
03:56	pppaul	oh
05:52	birdspider	hi, is there another option to call clojure from java apart of (typedef,gen-class + AOT) or RT,VAR, stuff ? something like gen-class without AOT ?
05:54	LauJensen	not yet, AFAIK
08:46	Licenser	aloaeh!
09:28	chouser	clojure.contrib.json can't be extended to add new kinds of things in the reader?
09:38	tonyl	morning
09:44	opqdonut	how can I make eval evaluate something inside a given ns?
09:44	opqdonut	use case: I'm dumping data as clojure exps that use a couple of utility functions to build the data
09:45	opqdonut	(also, it seems that evalling a very large vector of things causes the constant pool to overflow. thus i'm doing a (map eval (read-string "...")) )
09:48	chouser	(binding [ns your-namespace] (eval ...))
09:49	chouser	(binding [ns your-namespace] (vec (map eval ...)))
09:50	opqdonut	thanks
09:50	opqdonut	err but in that case eval evals in the current namespace?
09:50	opqdonut	which doesn't seem to be the case
09:51	chouser	it evals in your-namespace
09:51	opqdonut	i mean, if I don't bind
09:54	octe	i have a seq of strings and want to change on character in one of the strings, what's the simplest way?
09:54	tonyl	just one character in one string? do you know the index of that string?
09:55	octe	yes, i know the index in the seq and in the string
09:56	jarpiain	opqdonut: you get a VerifyError from (eval '[x y z ...]) ?
09:56	octe	basically, replace the nth item of a seq
09:56	octe	i'll figure out how to create the new string
09:58	tonyl	octe: you can use the nth function
09:58	tonyl	and clojure.string/replace
09:58	opqdonut	java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid this class index 3171 in constant pool in class file sick$eval8275 (measurements.txt:4)
09:58	opqdonut	that's what I get when trying to load-file it
09:59	octe	tonyl, i dont understand how to use the nth-function to generate a new seq with one item replaced
09:59	octe	map-indexed perhaps
10:00	chouser	yeah, map-indexed, though if you'll be dealing with indexes into that seq much at all, it may be worth using a vector instead
10:00	tonyl	yes map-indexed would help in that case
10:00	chouser	then you can just use update-in
10:01	octe	chouser, yeah, i guess. it's a seq due to reading it from a file
10:01	octe	i'm making an ascii-game and it's a representation of the level
10:01	octe	feels kind of inefficient to make a new copy of the structure every time something needs to change (door opened for example)
10:02	chouser	with a vector, you'll get structural sharing
10:02	chouser	with a seq, you'll likely have to keep working around the laziness of the thing (map-indexed is lazy!) and you'll get no structural sharing
10:03	chouser	just sharing of unchanged leaf objects (which you'd get with vectors as well)
10:04	Chousuke	immutable world state enables all kinds of fun things
10:04	Chousuke	like time travel
10:04	octe	update-in sounds like it's suppsoed to be used with maps
10:05	Chousuke	it works with anything associative
10:08	octe	hmm, this seems convoluted
10:08	octe	,(update-in (vec '("a" "b")) '(1) (fn [& rest] "x"))
10:08	chouser	assoc-in, if you don't care about the old value
10:08	chouser	& (assoc-in ["a" "b"] [1] "x")
10:08	sexpbot	⟹ ["a" "x"]
10:09	octe	nice, thanks
10:09	octe	new bot?
10:16	chouser	oh, he's been here a while now. handy to have a backup. :-)
10:17	djpowell	chouser: I was playing with finger trees - made a sortedvector. It seemed a bit slow though...
10:17	chouser	yeah. they have large constent cost compared to Clojure's collections. :-(
10:17	chouser	performance patches welcome! :-D
10:18	djpowell	I tried using the jvisualvm sampling profiler - it pointed to a couple of things in clojure, but I'm not sure whether to trust it
10:20	djpowell	I think the vec call is taking a bit of a slow path in clojure because clojure can't determine whether there are <= 32 elements in the concat-ed expression
10:21	chouser	I can't work on it right now, but I'd be thrilled to accept a performance patch.
10:22	djpowell	I was wondering whether there could be a better way of combining the metrics too than calling reduce over them. When the metric is stored in a defrecord or something, it might be more efficient for the monoid to accept more than 2 params, rather than producing a bunch of junk intermediate defrecords
10:23	djpowell	Would be interesting to compare against Functional Java's fingertrees too
10:23	djpowell	I'll have a play with it
10:37	octe	is there a simple way of writing and reading clojure structures to files? like vectors and maps
10:37	Chousuke	depends on what they contains
10:37	Chousuke	-s
10:38	octe	well, assuming simple stuff, primitives, strings, vectors, maps
10:38	Chousuke	then you can use pr and read
10:38	octe	what if they'd contain java serializable objects?
10:39	Chousuke	then I have no idea.
10:39	Chousuke	you'd have to do something custom
10:39	octe	alright
10:39	octe	thought there might be something built in
10:41	Chousuke	the safest approach will probably be to use json or xml :P
11:05	edbond	/set irc_conf_mode 1
11:16	AWizzArd	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1950312
11:18	chouser	still trying to get cake working
11:19	chouser	ah, don't need cake
11:19	AWizzArd	fogus`: grats :)
11:19	chouser	bah, said 'disj' not 'disj!'
11:20	AWizzArd	(:
11:20	fogus`	The struct stuff kills me. :-(
11:21	jaley	hi guys. does anyone know what needs to be in project.clj file for leiningen to generate an uberjar including some java code from my source tree? do i need an :aot field?
11:22	cemerick	fogus`: bah, 16/20 here! :-D
11:23	cemerick	the quiz should filter out subjects where the answer is in the doc as part of an example
11:24	chouser	16/20
11:26	raek	jaley: you want to compile the java sources with leiningen too?
11:26	raek	then you need to use a plugin
11:26	jaley	raek: yeah, i've compiled them with lein-javac actually. now i want the compiled classes included in the jar
11:27	raek	ah, they don't get included?
11:27	jaley	raek: not with my current configuration... that's why i'm wondering if anything special needs adding to the project.clj?
11:28	jaley	raek: at least i imagine that's the issue. at the moment leiningen is trying to compile my clojure code and aborts on the (ns) form that attempts to import the java classes
11:29	raek	does it work in the repl?
11:30	raek	what happens if you do (import 'one.of.the.Classes) in the repl?
11:30	jaley	raek: actually... no. not now that i've added a gen-class to my core.clj (where -main is)
11:31	fogus`	cemerick: My next attempt was only 15/20 ... apparently there is no unchecked-sub function :-(
11:32	raek	jaley: does you java code depend on you clojure code, or the other way?
11:32	chouser	you gotta be kidding. 'unchecked-remainder-long' sheesh
11:33	jaley	raek: clojure depends on java. i just found the issue actually, but not sure how to fix. lein uberjar "cleans up" the generated java classes
11:33	fliebel	Is there something like Clojure.news, similar to its arc counterpart? In other words: any reddit clones in Clojure?
11:33	jaley	raek: lein javac puts them back, then the repl works again
11:34	jaley	raek: but then lein uberjar will re-erase them before attempting to build the jar
11:35	raek	I'm afraid I'm out of advice
11:35	raek	maybe you could ask technomancy when he is around
11:36	raek	also, make sure you have a recent version of lein-javac, etc
11:37	jaley	raek: cool, thanks, i'll play around with it some more. i have 1.2.1, which is the latest i can see on clojars
11:37	chouser	2nd attempt: 17/20
11:39	raek	jaley: also, leiningen has a mail list. could be worth checking out.
11:40	fliebel	hah! Not much, but it might do what I need. https://github.com/LauJensen/cloneit/blob/master/src/cloneit.clj
11:41	raek	jaley: also, it looks like the lein 1.4 release candidate has something like lein-javac built in
11:42	jaley	raek: got it... lein-javac comes with a hook to add itself to the compile and clean targets, so you have to add :hooks [leiningen.hooks.javac] to project.clj for uberjar to work.
11:42	raek	I see
11:57	fliebel	How would I remove the repetition in this code? There are some unique parts and a recur, which make it hard to abstract. Only workable thing I can come up with is putting the lets in a macro. https://github.com/pepijndevos/clojure-quiz/blob/master/src/clojure_quiz/core.clj#L43-54
12:33	hugod	looking for github advice - best way to transfer a personal github repo into a github organisation? create the new repo and push from the pld? I know clojure went through this process, so hence the question here
12:34	dgreensp	er
12:35	dgreensp	^H^H
12:35	dgreensp	does anyone know why this is false?
12:35	dgreensp	(list? (list* 1 '(2 3)))
12:37	raek	,(class (list* 1 '(2 3)))
12:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
12:37	raek	,(seq? (list* 1 '(2 3)))
12:37	clojurebot	true
12:37	raek	list? checks if it is a persistent (counted) list
12:38	raek	list* just conses things on a sequence
12:38	dgreensp	ah, interesting
12:39	dgreensp	so, I'm trying to parse an s-expr, kind of a domain-specific language
12:39	dgreensp	and one of my cases is (list? x)
12:39	dgreensp	should I be using something different?
12:39	raek	,(class ''foo)
12:39	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
12:40	raek	,(class (read-string "'foo"))
12:40	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
12:40	mduerksen	is the author of the clojure quiz in here?
12:40	raek	dgreensp: I think seq? would work in your case
12:40	raek	mduerksen: I think the author is fliebel
12:41	dgreensp	,(seq? [1 2 3])
12:41	clojurebot	false
12:41	dgreensp	so vectors are never seqs?
12:41	raek	true
12:41	dgreensp	ok, sounds like seq? is what I want then, thanks :)
12:42	raek	PersistentList and Cons are the only types that implement the ISeq interface directly
12:42	raek	*collection types
12:42	tonyl	dgreensp: or if you want vectors too you can use coll?
12:47	dgreensp	I'm using a nested combination of vectors and parenthesized lists as a data structure
12:47	dgreensp	so basically I need to tell them apart, and when transforming them generate an expression that passes the tests again
12:48	dgreensp	I knew from past experience that (list? (map ... wouldn't necessarily be true, but I thought (list? (list* ... would be, heh
13:03	fliebel	mduerksen: Yes, he is :)
13:04	fliebel	mduerksen: ping
14:03	mduerksen	fliebel: pong :)
14:03	fliebel	mduerksen: what's up?
14:05	mduerksen	fliebel: i was enjoying your game, and will eventually use it to test my overall clojure knowledge
14:05	nickik	did you make the clojure quiz?
14:06	nickik	i just downloading that atm. :)
14:06	fliebel	yes, I did.
14:08	mduerksen	fliebel: maybe you already considered this, but i have a suggestion (for the "hardmode"): i often could guess the answer because the exact funtion name was mentioned in the doc string. how about mask the occurrences of the literal funtion name in the doc string?
14:10	fliebel	mduerksen: Yes, I did consider this. But I found some occasions where the same word was used in a sentence in a not so obvious way. By emphasizing these words by removing them, you will also spoil it.
14:10	fliebel	I will look up an example
14:11	fliebel	&(doc class)
14:11	sexpbot	⟹ "([x]); Returns the Class of x"
14:11	mduerksen	fliebel: i know what you mean. another problematic example would be "key", as you could only guess the semantics with the word 'key'
14:12	fliebel	&9doc keys)
14:12	sexpbot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 9doc
14:12	mduerksen	exactly. for these cases, it could be sufficient to mask the literal function name in all sentences except the first one
14:13	fliebel	$(doc keyword)
14:13	mduerksen	i haven't completely checked if that would work all the time, but my impression (after 60 questions :) ) was that it might be sufficient
14:14	fliebel	keyword has keyword mentioned in the second sentence
14:15	mduerksen	hmm, yes, and in an unemphasized way. :(
14:16	fliebel	And on the other hand, namespace would eb impossible to guess with the word namespace replaced.
14:18	mduerksen	well that wouldn't be the case the first sentence remained unmasked.
14:18	fliebel	true
14:19	fliebel	So that would work 99% of the time. Probably worth it.
14:20	mduerksen	maybe there is a pattern to be found for the "spoilers", something like ' around it or so? i'm checking now :)
14:21	tensorpudding	how might one use 'require' on the repl to import namespaces?
14:21	fliebel	I think (<word> might be a good one.
14:21	tonyl	(require 'clojure.string)
14:22	fliebel	tensorpudding: (require 'some.namespace)?
14:22	tonyl	tendsorpudding: ^^
14:22	tensorpudding	i want to import something from clojure-contrib
14:22	tensorpudding	ah, that seems to give me classpath issues
14:22	tensorpudding	i'm running the repl through lein
14:22	tonyl	it's the same ##(require 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils)
14:22	sexpbot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/repl_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/repl_utils.clj on classpath:
14:23	tensorpudding	hey, that's the error i got
14:23	tonyl	if that happens means that that namespace is not in the classpath
14:23	dnolen	tensorpudding: useful to alias, (ns your.foo (:require [clojure.contrib.monads :as m]))
14:23	dnolen	tensorpudding: is the contrib jar in your lib folder in your project?
14:23	tensorpudding	yes
14:24	tonyl	what ns are you trying to require?
14:24	tensorpudding	oh wait
14:24	tensorpudding	damn
14:25	tensorpudding	i was using a hyphen
14:25	tensorpudding	it works now
14:25	dnolen	if you don't alias you will have to write really long names.
14:25	dnolen	tensorpudding: clojure.contrib.repl-utils/source and the like
14:26	tensorpudding	i was require-ing clojure-contrib.foo, not clojure.contrib.foo
14:26	dnolen	if you alias you can write r/source or whatever
14:26	tensorpudding	i know
14:26	tensorpudding	i have it aliased in my file
14:26	tensorpudding	but i'm testing things out on the repl at the same time
14:33	fliebel	This returns all functions that contain their own name. (filter #(.contains (str "" (:doc (meta (val %)))) (name (key %))) (ns-publics 'clojure.core))
14:40	mduerksen	125 one of them. with the pattern (<name> i get 30
14:40	mduerksen	so 95 would be left :)
15:04	fliebel	mduerksen: But these 30 are good to replace for sure
15:05	tensorpudding	what's the clojure equivalent to #' ?
15:05	fliebel	tensorpudding: #'?
15:05	tensorpudding	from common lisp
15:06	fliebel	What does it do in CL?
15:06	tensorpudding	for instance, (apply #'+ '(10 10 10)) => 30
15:06	zellio	tensorpudding: you don't need it
15:06	zellio	(apply + [10 10 10]) works as is
15:06	joly	&(apply + '(10 10 10))
15:06	sexpbot	⟹ 30
15:07	tensorpudding	ah, but what i have is more complicated
15:07	zellio	tensorpudding: what do you have/
15:07	tensorpudding	though let me see
15:07	fliebel	#'+ allows you to redefine + though, and make it use the redefined version.
15:07	zellio	( sorry it's scrolled away )
15:07	tensorpudding	apply is complaining that i give it a symbol
15:09	zellio	tensorpudding: pastebin your code
15:09	tensorpudding	i've got a hash of functions, and i'm using (get table keyword) to pick a function, then apply-ing it
15:10	tensorpudding	but it turns out that i was referring to the functions with symbols, that was the issue
15:10	zellio	mmkay
15:21	Raynes	tensorpudding: You should be able to just do (keyword table), since keywords are functions that take a map and look themselves up in it. No need for get.
15:22	Raynes	&(:blah {: blah 1 :rawr 2})
15:22	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: :
15:23	Raynes	Well, you get the idea. Hard to type code on this phone.
15:24	joly	&(apply ({:add + :sub -} :add) '(10 10 10))
15:24	sexpbot	⟹ 30
15:27	Raynes	That works too. ;)
15:27	tensorpudding	what's the syntax of cond?
15:28	dgreensp	tensorpudding: (cond test1 then1 test2 then2...
15:28	Raynes	&(cond false 1 true 2)
15:28	sexpbot	⟹ 2
15:28	defn	dnolen: logos == cool
15:29	tensorpudding	okay, so it's not like scheme
15:29	Raynes	defn: Buy me a better phome for Christmas.
15:30	joly	I think condp is more like Scheme's cond
15:30	tensorpudding	lisp is quite the mess
15:31	dgreensp	no, scheme's cond is just like clojure's but with more parens
15:31	tensorpudding	syntax, i meant
15:31	Raynes	Dare I say Clojure is less of a mess than some others?
15:31	tensorpudding	though lisps differing by frustrating little bits of syntax is par for the course
15:32	dgreensp	what's the most readable way to test whether a value is of the form ('Y foo), i.e. (list 'Y foo) for some foo?
15:33	Munksgaard	Raynes, i think things like (cond test1 then1 test2 then2) is much more of a mess than (cond (test1 then1) (test2 then2)). It has more parens, but imo it's much clearer what belongs to what.
15:33	tensorpudding	yay, it builds! boo, it fails on running!
15:33	dnolen	defn: hey thx! a bit broken at the moment
15:33	Munksgaard	What is the advantages of clojures conds over lisps?
15:34	tensorpudding	fewer parens, apparently
15:34	dnolen	defn: looking forward to seeing what kind of perf deftypes can bring to the mplus/bind stuff.
15:34	tensorpudding	my program somehow can't find my main method...
15:34	dnolen	defn: I'd like to have a Prolog-like REPL that you can start from w/in Clojure
15:35	tensorpudding	but it was able to build?
15:40	Raynes	Munksgaard: I am a fan of clear indentation rather than pointless parens.
15:43	defn	dnolen: yeah! that'd be awesome.
15:44	defn	www.github.com/jashmenn/clj-file-utils
15:45	defn	oh wait -- i forgot the 11th commandment: "thou shalt not say 'awesome' without considering tradeoffs"
15:46	defn	dnolen: that's be 'interesting'. :)
15:47	Munksgaard	Raynes, I definitely see your point, but i'm just wondering if there are any implementational advantages. Is it faster to parse (cond test1 then1 test2 then2 ..) than (cond (test1 then1) (test2 then2) ..), or does it allow clojure to use some faster datatypes (vectors?) for the arguments, or whats the deal? I don't think you should be changing syntax just because you can get rid of a few
15:47	Munksgaard	parens, if you need to have way more messy compiler-code.
15:48	chouser	it's not changing syntax. Clojure's cond has always been that way.
15:48	Munksgaard	Good point :-)
15:48	chouser	:-)
15:49	chouser	to the extent that "too many parens" is cited as an excuse to ignore lisp, it may be worth some effort in the compiler code to reduce the validity of that claim.
15:50	fogus`	,(inc chouser)
15:50	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: chouser in this context
15:50	fogus`	no love
15:51	Raynes	(inc chouser)
15:51	sexpbot	⟹ 1
15:51	fogus`	(inc chouser)
15:51	sexpbot	⟹ 2
15:51	fogus`	Raynes: thx
15:55	Munksgaard	chouser, you're propably right :-). I'm just a bit sad that the simplicity/purity of lisp is being sacrificed like this, but then again, as you said, this ain't lisp...
15:56	fogus`	Munksgaard: What defines purity?
15:56	defn	not this paren talk again!
15:56	Munksgaard	defn, sorry! I'll stop!
15:56	defn	haha nono it's fine
15:57	Munksgaard	:-)
15:57	defn	I was going to take this opportunity to say that you check out Land of Lisp
15:57	Munksgaard	I guess it's been discussed a billion times in here already.
15:57	defn	the author does a terrific job of "selling" lisp
15:57	hiredman	I assume by "lisp" you mean "common lisp"
15:57	chouser	I think it'd be fair to say Clojure is a step or two away from the purity of something like scheme, in exchange for a whole load of practicality and avoidence of several kinds of accidental complexity.
15:57	defn	hiredman: that assumption (at least in my case) would be correct
15:57	tensorpudding	is there a function which mangles strings to integers?
15:58	hiredman	in which case a. common lisp is not the only lisp, so please specify and b. common lisp is hardly something to be considered "pure"
15:58	chouser	& (pr-str 1234)
15:58	sexpbot	⟹ "1234"
15:58	defn	i've never heard that terminology: "mangles"
15:58	Munksgaard	defn, yeah i'm actually in the (slow) process of reading through it atm. I like it and lisp a lot, but clojure also draws me a bit with it's smaller standard library, speed etc.
15:58	tensorpudding	i want the other way around
15:58	defn	im just doing land of lisp to have some context
15:59	tonyl	&(Integer.parseInt "1234")
15:59	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: Integer.parseInt
15:59	tonyl	&(Integer/parseInt "1234")
15:59	sexpbot	⟹ 1234
15:59	defn	i plan on sticking around in clojure-land for some time to come
15:59	Munksgaard	chouser, good way to put it, i'll keep that in mind.
15:59	tensorpudding	i have to use java for this?
15:59	tensorpudding	also it would preferably not be restricted to integers?
16:00	defn	tensorpudding: (defn str->int [i] (Integer/parseInt i))
16:00	defn	(str->int "5423")
16:00	defn	err replace that i with an s
16:00	chouser	& (read-string "[:not :a Integer 123.456]")
16:00	sexpbot	⟹ [:not :a Integer 123.456]
16:00	tonyl	so any number?
16:00	mabes	and type hint the i
16:01	defn	i dont really see any problem with using Java in your clojure code. that's sort of the point, isn't it? use what's there? that being said, i like to break most of the java I use out into a tiny clojure function to keep things tidy
16:01	tensorpudding	i don't know, when i feel that i must call java (which has happened twice since i started writing this thing) that it's a shortcoming of the language
16:02	tensorpudding	moreover, i have a dislike of java
16:02	defn	tensorpudding: there are other ways to do it in clojure
16:02	tensorpudding	i suppose i could use a regex
16:02	tensorpudding	that would be a lark
16:03	defn	im a walking lark
16:03	danlarkin	no I'm a walking lark!
16:03	chouser	tensorpudding: Clojure intentionally embraces the host environment and so does not abstract parts of it that don't need to be abstracted. Using Java method calls really is fine.
16:03	defn	chouser: i had the same reaction initially to using Java in Clojure
16:03	defn	it felt...dirty...
16:03	chouser	defn: we all did
16:04	tensorpudding	i'm mostly using clojure because it's a lisp with more features and less cruft, in spite of my ambivalence about java
16:05	chouser	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-10-04.html#21:24
16:05	tensorpudding	in any case, if i used that parseInt i'd have to catch an exception if it's not an integer
16:05	chouser	sorry to quote myself. :-P
16:05	chouser	tensorpudding: you saw you could use read-string ?
16:05	tensorpudding	and i haven't gotten far enough in clojure to handle exceptions
16:06	defn	1. "oh! Java!?" 2. "Eww! Java!" 3. "Ah... Java..."
16:06	chouser	though that can throw exceptions too
16:06	hiredman	I wouldn't use read-string
16:07	hiredman	use parseInt or similiar
16:07	chouser	hiredman: why?
16:08	hiredman	the domain and the range are just too broad
16:08	tensorpudding	hmm, read-string works nicely
16:08	hiredman	read-string will take any string and try and turn it into anything
16:09	hiredman	you may not even get the type of number you want
16:10	hiredman	it's just way to loose
16:11	defn	dont i remember some other way of doing it
16:11	defn	hmmm
16:12	chouser	I want a pod
16:12	chouser	so I can put a SimpleDateFormat in it.
16:12	chouser	I guess I'm back to 2
16:13	defn	wasn't there some way of mapping char across your string and then doing something to get a number?
16:13	brehaut	tensorpudding: late reparens: dont forget that clj allows optional commas
16:13	hiredman	defn: just use parseInt
16:14	dakrone	defn: ping
16:14	chouser	unless you want to allow floats, then use parseFloat or parseDouble
16:14	chouser	or if ints are big enough, then use parseLong
16:14	hiredman	chouser: indeed
16:14	chouser	aren't
16:14	defn	dakrone: pong
16:14	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:14	hiredman	infact parseLong would be better than parseInt
16:15	defn	hiredman: oh i agree with you, i was just thinking for the sake of brevity
16:15	defn	might as well mention it
16:15	hiredman	chouser: why would you ever want floats :(
16:16	tonyl	because we don't want to discriminate the natural numbers
16:17	tonyl	then again there are also imaginary ones
16:17	qed	don't want the ACLU to get involved...
16:17	qed	(rimshot)
16:17	hiredman	I wonder if Ratio has a parseRatio (my guess is no)
16:18	hiredman	might be a nice patch...
16:20	tonyl	that would be
16:20	chouser	hm, clojure.lang.LispReader/readNumber looks nice
16:20	chouser	too bad it's private
16:21	tonyl	I was thinking of a generic fn
16:21	tonyl	chouser: like that readNumber
16:22	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojure/blob/readerII/src/clj/clojure/reader.clj#L728
16:23	Chousuke	that is seriously a hideous function. :P
16:24	Chousuke	I mean read, not read-number
16:24	Chousuke	but I guess that's what you get when you translate java.
16:24	hiredman	well, you know, I was forced to it for bootstrapping reasons
16:25	hiredman	and that
16:25	Chousuke	I somehow managed to get my reader working without any weird tricks.
16:25	Chousuke	but it's pretty bit-rotted right now.
16:25	hiredman	mine too
16:25	Chousuke	it was fun to write though.
16:26	hiredman	yep
16:27	hiredman	I want to rewrite using defrecord(deftype?) sometime, should be much cleaner and easier, but I hate to have to muck with the build again
16:28	hiredman	I re-worked the build to build normally -> aot compile the reader -> build again using the reader
16:29	hiredman	and, uh, I can only imagine the build.xml has gotten worse since then
16:34	defn	is there no way to delete a jar from clojars?
16:35	lancepantz	defn: correct
16:36	hiredman	you can ask someone (technomancy?)
16:40	defn	lancepantz: is that...intentional?
16:41	hiredman	immutable
16:44	lancepantz	defn: i'm not sure, but it does make some sense, if your project is dependent on something there, you don't want it going away
16:44	lancepantz	it's obviously troublesome to correct accidents tho
16:56	dmart_	does clojure have a sorted list, or just the sorted map? I have a defrecord with one field being a date, and I'd like to create a list of them sorted by that date field, without re-referencing the date through a key
16:56	dmart_	did I just make any sense?
16:56	chouser	dmart_: how does a sorted-set strike you?
16:57	dmart_	hmm, does that also require a key/value? I suppose my dates are unique
16:58	dmart_	maybe it just makes sense to sort the list once I've built it up, heh
16:58	dmart_	I'm probably over complicating things
16:58	chouser	hm, could be. sort on a seq is pretty fast
16:59	dmart_	I also appear to be using a tonne of memory building up this data set, but I'll try and figure that out next
17:02	chouser	huh, I thought there was a compare-by
17:02	ossareh	Hey, I've a deftype which the defprotocol P implements the "talk" functions of. When im in other-ns and I import P I cannot call "talk" on P.
17:03	chouser	like (defn compare-by [f] (fn [a b] (compare (f a) (f b))))
17:03	hiredman	ossareh: a protocol creates a group of functions
17:03	ossareh	(talk (P.)) => "Unable to resolve symbol: draw in this context"
17:03	hiredman	uh
17:03	ossareh	s/draw/talk/
17:03	sexpbot	<ossareh> (talk (P.)) => "Unable to resolve symbol: talk in this context"
17:03	chouser	& (sorted-set-by #(compare (:date %1) (:date %2)) {:date 5 :name "foo"} {:date 3 :name "bar"} {:date 8 :name "baz"})
17:03	sexpbot	⟹ #{{:date 3, :name "bar"} {:date 5, :name "foo"} {:date 8, :name "baz"}}
17:04	hiredman	and you don't create instances of a protocol
17:04	ossareh	hiredman: huh... I'm clearly in need of some education.
17:04	ossareh	:)
17:04	hiredman	ossareh: right, so go do some reading
17:07	dnolen	ossareh: defprotocol and deftype/record are a bit abstract, easy to be confused at first. Joy of Clojure probable does the best job in explaining them.
17:12	cpfr	If I am creating a graph structure that I want to be lightweight, should I use defstruct or defrecord?
17:12	danlarkin	cpfr: neither
17:13	cpfr	danlarkin, what should I use? maps and edgelists?
17:14	danlarkin	yup
17:16	cpfr	danlarkin, when is using a defstruct or defrecord appropriate?
17:17	danlarkin	cpfr: defstruct is never appropriate imo
17:17	danlarkin	defrecord is appropriate when used in conjunction with protocols
17:18	danlarkin	but it's not right to use when what you really want are hash maps
17:18	birdspider	hello, is it possible to use defprotocol/deftype with gen-class ? (and AOT)
17:18	cpfr	as I understand protocols is for doing multimethod like things efficiently
17:19	chouser	danlarkin: I think it's ok to use defrecord when you have a lot of hashmaps with the same keys. Sames time and memory, with very small downside.
17:20	chouser	Saves
17:21	chouser	birdspider: yes, though if you're using gen-class for anything other than interop with existing Java code or creating static methods, there's probably a better way.
17:22	dnolen	cpfr: if you want something to be very light weight, I would use deftype. But I would start with map and work backwards.
17:23	dnolen	there are even many costs with defrecord - i.e. lookup time in collections.
17:23	birdspider	chouser, i'm interoping (well experinmenting with)
17:23	chouser	dnolen: how is defrecord heavier than deftype when you wan something like a map?
17:25	dnolen	chouser: sorry I missed the part where he said he needed it to be like a map. then sure.
17:25	mefesto	Hey everyone. I'm implementing a web service using jax-ws and want to use clojure for the impl. I'm using maven w/ the jaxws plugin which generates artifacts from an existing wsdl. It seems that the clojure-maven-plugin cannot see these generated artifacts and fails to compile. Does anyone know if there is a way to configure the classpath for the clojure-maven-plugin?
17:26	stuartsierra	I don't know, but the clojure-maven-plugin Google Group probably will.
17:26	mefesto	stuartsierra: thanks, i should've checked
17:27	stuartsierra	I meant you'll probably have to ask there… that's a question for Mark Derricut (plugin author)
17:39	mefesto	n/m my problem was completely user error :)
17:47	birdspider	chouser, what could it be if the defprotocoll and reify things work in clojure but AOT gives me a "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: test.withclass.H (withclass.clj:9)" clj: http://pastebin.com/AFj4G6Ew java: http://pastebin.com/grAt03Qy
17:54	chouser	birdspider: sorry, won't be able to look at it just now
17:56	birdspider	chouser, kk
17:58	vilfredo	I'm trying to run through the compojure getting starting, but hitting 'Wrong number of arguments to repl task. \n Expected ([] [project])'
17:58	vilfredo	what is this beginner missing?
18:00	joegallo	Is your current directory in a place that has a project.clj file?
18:00	joegallo	You might need to cd to the right place.
18:00	technomancy	vilfredo: sounds like the compojure tutorial is out of date
18:01	technomancy	just do "lein repl" without any arguments, then (use 'whatever.namespace) that the tutorial needs
18:02	vilfredo	perfect. Cheers
18:19	ossareh	so I've read chapter 9 of The Joy of Clojure - so now I have a defprotocol that has a couple of methods on it and a defrecord that implements those methods. I guess the only thing that is tripping me up is accessing the methods on the record from a different NS.
18:21	hiredman	they are not methods
18:21	hiredman	they are functions
18:21	ossareh	you're right. I meant that.
18:25	ossareh	though that is a hard distinction to keep in mind given nearly everything refers to the functions on defrecords as methods. case in point (doc defrecord):
18:25	ossareh	,(doc defrecord)
18:25	clojurebot	"([name [& fields] & opts+specs]); Alpha - subject to change (defrecord name [fields] options specs*) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of a protocol or interface name followed by ...
18:41	birdspider	i have a defprotocol and a call to reify which works as expected in repl, given I want to pass the reify generated object pack to java, what should I do in gen-class:methods ?
18:47	qed	whoa. the little schemer book /is/ awesome. i had no idea about the format.
18:50	replaca	Does anyone know if there's a maven command that takes a package name and version number and gives me a jar?
18:51	Munksgaard	qed, cool, i've considered buying it! What's it like?
18:52	qed	Munksgaard: There are two columns on every page. The column on the left asks a question like: What is (car (car l)) where l is (((hotdogs)) (and) (pickle) relish)
18:53	qed	The column on the right says: (hotdogs)
18:53	qed	the preceding question was: the same except it was (car l) instead of (car (car l)), the right column explains: ((hotdogs)), because (car l) is another way to ask for "the car of the list l."
18:54	qed	What is (cdr l) where l is ()? Right column: No answer.(1) You cannot ask for the cdr of the null list. footnotes: 1. (L: nil)
18:55	qed	and so on and so forth, slowly building you up from these basic components to the bigger ideas
18:56	qed	it's a really cogent way of explaining the process that a lisp programmer takes in everyday programming -- start with these basic things and combine them, evolve them, etc.
18:57	brehaut	munksgaard: it will take someone from no lisp understanding right through to the Y combinator and bit further
18:57	Munksgaard	sounds great! maybe i can find it on offer somewhere
18:57	qed	brehaut: yeah I'm glancing at the back of the book -- this is pretty amazing.
18:57	brehaut	qed yeah i really like it
18:58	qed	you could literally read this in an afternoon
18:59	qed	i wonder -- has anyone "ported" this book to clojure? that could be fun.
18:59	qed	aww, yes, several people have in fact.
19:00	Munksgaard	just searching for the little schemer on google, and the little lisper pops up too, looks like an older version (obviously using a different language too), is that correct?
19:00	qed	so... reading list for the next few months: land of lisp, the little schemer, lisp in small pieces, and create your own freaking awesome programming language
19:01	brehaut	Munksgaard: i think so yeah.
19:01	brehaut	Munksgaard: theres an equivalent book for smalltalk somewhere too
19:01	brehaut	Munksgaard: 'A Quick Trip to ObjectLand' i think
19:01	qed	hm -- i didnt even think to google for the little lisper -- i guess i just assumed scheme and lisp were close enough and looking into scheme could be interesting
19:02	qed	now im wondering if i made the right choice
19:02	brehaut	qed the schemer version is the more famous i think
19:02	qed	everyone recommended the little schemer to me
19:02	qed	brehaut: any particular reason why?
19:03	brehaut	qed: i tihnk be because scheme is a 'cleaner' (not trying to start a war!) lisp, the book is able to teach ideas without some of the language getting in the way that might exist for say CL
19:03	Munksgaard	makes sense
19:03	brehaut	it really is a book a bout thinking computationally rather than just a 'learn lisp' book
19:03	qed	i dont know enough scheme to agree with that, nor enough CL
19:04	qed	brehaut: now that makes more sense
19:04	brehaut	the TL;DR; history is CL is the Big, kitchen sink lisp designed by a committee of Lisp venders, and scheme is the tiny elegant science experiment devised by Steele
19:05	brehaut	but i think that does a disservice to both
19:05	Munksgaard	please do elaborate
19:06	Munksgaard	:-)
19:06	brehaut	well, you will want to read http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html
19:06	brehaut	its related
19:07	Munksgaard	another side added to my loooong reading-list
19:07	Munksgaard	anyone acquainted with The Seasoned Schemer, supposedly a sequel to the little schemer?
19:07	Chousuke	CL was cobbled together from existing Lisps, Scheme was built from the ground up. :P
19:09	brehaut	Chousuke: hah :)
19:10	qed	Munksgaard: there's the reasoned schemer, the seasoned schemer, and the little schemer
19:11	qed	im not quite sure on the order you're supposed to read them. being reasoned vs being seasoned, seasoned seems more senior-ish but i'm not entirely confident
19:11	brehaut	i think seasoned is the followup to little
19:11	brehaut	reasoned is sort of an aside. dnolen could tell you; hes ported the miniKanren library from the reasoned schemer to clj recently
19:12	birdspider	any idea what could possibly induce such line number behaviour ? http://pastebin.com/ndkaGmPv
19:13	brehaut	miniKanren in clj: https://github.com/swannodette/logos
19:27	octe	% ()
19:28	octe	,()
19:28	clojurebot	()
19:28	octe	,(map (fn [x] x) '("a" "b"))
19:28	clojurebot	("a" "b")
19:28	octe	,(defn read-level [fn] (map (fn [x] x) (streams/read-lines fn)))
19:28	clojurebot	DENIED
19:29	octe	,(defn read-level [fn] (map (fn [x] x) '("a" "b")))
19:29	clojurebot	DENIED
19:29	octe	hmm
19:29	octe	(defn read-level [fn]
19:29	octe	(map (fn [x] x)
19:29	octe	(streams/read-lines fn)))
19:30	octe	gives me Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context
19:30	octe	strange
19:30	hiredman	octe: no it doesn't
19:30	brehaut	octe, identity will save you two chars on those maps ;)
19:31	octe	well i was reducing it since i got that error
19:31	octe	there's more done in the fn
19:31	hiredman	right, and the fn you pasted could not ever get you that error
19:31	hiredman	so you reduced it wrong
19:31	octe	strange, maybe some slime / swank issue then
19:32	hiredman	I doubt it
19:35	clizzin	I have a macro looks something like this (defmacro foo [strs] `(hash-map :bar ~(str/join \, strs))). However, if I pass in a symbol for strs, i.e. i pass in x, when previous i had (def x ["a" "b" "c"]), this expands to (hash-map :bar "x") instead of (hash-map :bar "a,b,c"). How can I further unquote x so that I get the result I want?
19:36	clizzin	sorry if that's not very readable, let me know if i can make it easier to read
19:37	clizzin	macro that looks something like this: *
19:42	Chousuke	clizzin: you can't, really.
19:42	Chousuke	or shouldn't, because it's really hacky.
19:43	Chousuke	any solution will only work for def'd global values.
19:44	Chousuke	clizzin: basically you'd have to do in your macro (eval strs) to get the value of x instead of the symbol, and that only works if x is a global.
19:46	clizzin	Chousuke: would i be able to bind ~x to an autogenerated symbol and then eval that symbol?
19:46	Chousuke	You might be able to use the implicit &env parameter that is passed to macros but that too feels pretty hackish
19:46	Chousuke	clizzin: there's no ~x at macroexpansion time. (there's just the strs parameter)
19:47	clizzin	whoops, sorry, i meant ~strs
19:47	Chousuke	what would that help?
19:47	Chousuke	you would have to generate code that evals something, which is almost never what you want to do
19:49	Chousuke	in this particular case, why are you even using a macro though?
19:49	Chousuke	that looks like something a regular function can do just fine
19:49	jjido	what is the equivalent of indexOf in Clojure?
19:50	Chousuke	for Strings?
19:50	jjido	yes
19:50	Chousuke	I guess that would be .indexOf :P
19:50	jjido	:(
19:50	clizzin	Chousuke: the macro actually defines a variable, and the name of that variable is an argument to the macro. the version i put before was simplified.
19:50	Chousuke	since Clojure Strings are Java Strings
19:51	jjido	Chousuke: but Java methods are not first class
19:51	Chousuke	jjido: wrap them in a function
19:51	clizzin	Chousuke: the actual macro looks something like (defmacro foo [var files] `(def ~var {"key1" "value1" "key2" ~(str/join \, files)}))
19:51	Chousuke	clizzin: right.
19:52	Chousuke	clizzin: you cal always generate code that does `(def ~var {key val key2 (str/join \, ~files)})
19:53	Chousuke	clizzin: ie. doesn't actually do the joining at macroexpansion time.
19:53	pdk`	(doc some)
19:53	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
19:53	pdk`	(doc all)
19:53	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
19:53	pdk`	(doc none)
19:53	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:54	clizzin	Chousuke: that was my initial thought, but the str/join part becomes (join \, [file1 file2]), and that requires that 'join' exists in any namespace that i call the macro from
19:55	Chousuke	clizzin: well, yeah
19:55	clizzin	Chousuke: and it seems silly to write something that requires a use/require in the calling namespace. shouldn't it be more self-contained?
19:55	Chousuke	or actually it requires that the namespace is require'd
19:56	Chousuke	hm
19:56	Chousuke	clizzin: well you have two choices really
19:56	Chousuke	clizzin: make it work with literals only, or make it require str/join
19:56	Chousuke	at runtime
19:57	Chousuke	any other solution will most likely be really hacky and brittle :P
19:57	clizzin	Chousuke: what is the danger of eval in a case like this?
19:57	clizzin	it seems to be the most straightforward solution on face
19:58	Chousuke	well if you do (let [x ["some" "stuff"]] (foo varname x)) it won't work
19:59	Chousuke	and even though you can inspect the local environment from a macro and theoretically make that case work, then you need to deal with (let [x [some variables]] (foo varname x))
19:59	Chousuke	it's a lot of work and prone to breakage.
20:00	clizzin	hmm okay
20:01	Chousuke	in fact, dealing with (let [x [(some-function blah) ...]] (foo varname x)) is probably nigh impossible :P
20:01	Chousuke	you'd have to do code walking
20:02	Chousuke	and that's never a good sign
20:02	clizzin	i see. unfortunate. what is the danger of designing macros such that macros take on the same bindings as the call?
20:07	Chousuke	clizzin: same bindings?
20:10	clizzin	Chousuke: hmm that may not actually make sense now that i think about it. let me mull it over, and i'll come back if i can't see an issue with it. thanks for your help!
20:10	Chousuke	clizzin: your problem here is that you want your macro to generate different code depending on the runtime value of x, instead of the symbol x
20:11	Chousuke	clizzin: in other words, the parameter to the macro can only be the symbol x, not what the symbol x represents at runtime.
20:11	clizzin	Chousuke: right, i think this is what i was starting to realise...that the idea of bindings from the call don't make sense in a macro.
20:16	jjido	what does (or) expand into?
20:17	tomoj	$(macroexpand-1 '(or x y))
20:17	tomoj	,(macroexpand-1 '(or x y))
20:17	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [or__3470__auto__ x] (if or__3470__auto__ or__3470__auto__ (clojure.core/or y)))
20:19	jjido	tomoj: thanks. I can't make sense of it
20:20	tomoj	(or x y) = (let [foo x] (if foo foo y))
20:20	jjido	ok
20:21	tomoj	(or x y z) = (let [foo x] (if foo foo (let [bar y] (if bar bar z))))
20:22	jjido	I see.
21:51	brehaut	why does clojure.xml/emit and family use println for the xml text rather than returning it ?
21:54	_ato	so that it doesn't have to keep the entire XML output in memory
21:55	_ato	wrap it in (with-out-str ...) if you need a string of it
21:55	brehaut	oh right. cheers
22:10	gertalot	I'm trying to apply a function to every value of a map, and return a map. Is there an easier way than doing this?
22:10	brehaut	(into {} (map (fn [[k v] (fun k v)) source-map)
22:10	brehaut	)
22:10	brehaut	i think
22:11	gertalot	,(apply hash-map (flatten (map (fn [kv] [(key kv) (* 2 (val kv))]) {:a 1 :b 2})))
22:11	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 4}
22:11	gertalot	into? cool
22:11	brehaut	into is great
22:11	brehaut	general purpose pouring stuff into collection fun
22:11	_ato	another variant: (zipmap (keys m) (map f (vals map)))
22:11	gertalot	see, everytime I dream up something convoluted and difficult it turns out there's already a function for it
22:11	gertalot	ahh
22:12	gertalot	didn't think of that
22:12	gertalot	awesome
22:12	brehaut	_ato wins
22:12	gertalot	i agree.
22:12	gertalot	thanks everyone!
22:13	_ato	there's also clojure.contrib.generic.function/fmap but that means pulling in a library ;-)
22:13	_ato	clojure.contrib.generic.functor/fmap, I mean
22:13	_ato	http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/generic.functor-api.html
22:14	_ato	,fmap
22:14	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: fmap in this context
22:14	_ato	,(use 'clojure.contrib.generic.functor)
22:14	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/generic/functor__init.class or clojure/contrib/generic/functor.clj on classpath:
22:14	_ato	mm, thought so
22:21	brehaut	im having a documentation fail regarding defrecords. how does clojure define accessors for the fields?
22:28	_ato	brehaut: not sure I understand your question. You can access fields with (:field some-record)
22:28	brehaut	ah right :)
22:28	brehaut	cheers :)
22:28	tomoj	in protocol method definitions, just pretend the field list is like defn's
22:28	tomoj	you can use those symbols to refer to the fields
22:29	tomoj	for self-access
22:29	Intertricity	Can anyone suggest a book for a programmer with no experience in java, just C and Python?
22:29	KirinDave	Intertricity: Yes.
22:29	KirinDave	Intertricity: SICP.
22:29	Intertricity	I was hoping for a clojure book >.>
22:29	KirinDave	Intertricity: But for Clojure? :D
22:29	Intertricity	Yes :P
22:30	KirinDave	Intertricity: The book I am working on is for people who know either Java or Ruby/Python. But it's months from being even in beta.
22:30	Intertricity	aw ntus
22:30	Intertricity	*nuts
22:30	brehaut	Intertricity: joy of clojure?
22:31	Intertricity	brehaut, I can look that one up, thanks :)
22:32	brehaut	Intertricity: its in beta/MEAP ATM
22:32	Intertricity	What's meap?
22:32	brehaut	im from a python/javascript background and ive enjoyed it thus far
22:32	brehaut	meap is manning (the publishers) pdf beta program
22:35	tomoj	you will probably want to learn how to read javadocs someday :(
22:35	KirinDave	brehaut: I love JoC, but I felt like it wants more java proficiency.
22:35	Intertricity	Ooh I see
22:36	Intertricity	I'm learning clojure to use it on the CLR
22:36	tomoj	oh
22:36	tomoj	then..
22:36	Intertricity	after seeing the first bits of clojureclr showing up in binary
22:36	tomoj	you will not need to read javadocs
22:36	Intertricity	heh :P
22:36	tomoj	doesn't such a clojurist need to write most everything from scratch?
22:37	tomoj	how much of contrib has been ported, I wonder?
22:37	brehaut	KirinDave: maybe? I learnt and used java in 2001-2003 and havent used it since and havent found that to be an impediment for JoC
22:37	Intertricity	there's a .Net library I plan to use
22:37	KirinDave	.net?
22:37	Intertricity	yeah, clojureclr gives access to .net
22:38	tomoj	huh
22:38	tomoj	could use that for f# interop I suppose?
22:39	brehaut	tomoj, presumably you would just expose your F# with classes and consume them from clojureclr just like you consume them from C#?
22:39	tomoj	I guess, I don't know f#
22:39	brehaut	ive only dabbled
22:40	tomoj	looks like even lamina won't work :(