#clojure – 2010-11-24

2010-11-24

00:06	Lajla	So why don't lists implement lFn?
00:06	Lajla	raek, I bet you know this.
00:06	Lajla	Maybe go first/rest on true/false?
00:12	replaca	Lajla: the IFn indexers only work on O(1) (or O(log32)) accesses. Lists are O(n)
00:13	replaca	Lajla: Strings are a result of strings having built-in Java semantics
00:14	Lajla	replaca, hmm
00:14	Lajla	What what reason i the first rule?
00:15	replaca	Lajla: Rich doesn't like "surprise" performance hits
00:15	replaca	Lajla: and I think this is an example of that
00:18	Lajla	Ahh
00:18	Lajla	But like
00:18	Lajla	it's not more or less surprise than any accessing function right?
00:18	Lajla	Or isn't there a generic sequence accessor?
00:19	replaca	Lajla: nth works for anything
00:19	replaca	but is understood to be variant in it's performance
00:20	Lajla	Ahhh
00:20	Lajla	and can't using lFn accessing be?
00:20	Lajla	also be understood
00:20	replaca	if you think of maps as functions: f(k) -> v
00:21	Lajla	Also, you don't really know in vectors when it's O(1) or O(log32) right?
00:21	Lajla	Yes, I do!
00:21	replaca	and a vector is just a special kind of map (where k is the index)
00:21	Lajla	Yes I do!
00:21	Lajla	I like that.
00:21	Lajla	And like, sets being maps where k = v
00:21	replaca	that's what's getting executed in the (m k) style
00:21	replaca	exactly
00:22	replaca	and lists don't seem to follow that model
00:22	replaca	(and least to Rich)
00:22	replaca	in fact, I do find that I'm using maps and vectors as substitutes for "real" functions
00:23	Lajla	Yeah, but why don't lists?
00:23	replaca	because lists are not innately indexable
00:23	Lajla	And can't lists at least be f : {true,false} -> V
00:23	replaca	you have to walk them
00:23	Lajla	Ahh
00:23	Lajla	Yeah, I guess like, it's not primitive.
00:23	replaca	right
00:24	replaca	now, that doesn't mean you're argument is without merit, and I get where you're coming from
00:24	replaca	but I think that was basically Rich's logic
00:25	replaca	so as a matter of style, we really only use that (m k) style when we mean for the map (or vector) to be a function
00:25	Lajla	Yeah, I guess.
00:25	replaca	in that context
00:26	Lajla	Ahhh
00:26	Lajla	I guess.
00:26	Lajla	Rich is dictator in perpetuo.
00:26	replaca	and we use nth, get, or (:key m) when we're doing lookups
00:27	replaca	yup, and we're all the better for it, even if we disagree about a feature here or there
00:27	Lajla	For some decisions though, I want to stab him, and have him look at me, and say και συ, τηκνον;, and then I'll reply with 'What on earth are you saying mate?'
00:27	Lajla	Clojure is one of those languages for me which is really nice in some spots, but really awful in others.
00:27	replaca	but I do find I end up agreeing with him a lot of the time after things have soaked in
00:27	Lajla	Kind of like French.
00:28	replaca	Hmmm - I'm pretty happy with the language itself
00:28	replaca	some things like error messages have room for improvement
00:28	replaca	(but folks are working on them)
00:29	Lajla	I was hoping that you mentioned the lack of TCO.
00:29	Lajla	But I do love how vectors and hash maps evaluate to their evaluations
00:29	Lajla	It almost makes me wish that lists did so as well.
00:30	Lajla	And a new special datum just for code was invented.
00:30	replaca	clojure folks typically just use vectors when they want that semantic
00:30	replaca	I don't care about TCO
00:30	replaca	there, I said it! :)
00:31	Lajla	I do. =(
00:31	Lajla	I am addicted to it.
00:32	replaca	Yeh, I think it's just a fixation.
00:32	Lajla	But clojure is kind of oddball in how it treats functional programming, I'd say its a paradigm on its own.
00:32	Lajla	Nahh, I use mutual recursion quite often.
00:32	replaca	When I'm writing big systems in production, the lack of TCO is not a pain point at all
00:33	replaca	as far as I can tell, all functional languages are oddballs relative to ech other
00:33	replaca	except maybe OCaml and F#
00:34	Lajla	I wouldn't say that per se.
00:34	Lajla	But clojure's treatment of generics is unusual I guess.
00:34	Lajla	How functions can accept multiple types which are often structurally unrelated.
00:34	replaca	well, clojure is a dynamically types language
00:34	replaca	*typed
00:35	Lajla	Usually, functional languages become obsessed with structural perfection to the point that it becomes impractal.
00:35	Lajla	Well, not that.
00:35	Lajla	But like, for instance, in clojure it's quite possible that a function accepts strings.
00:35	Lajla	And when you give it a character
00:35	replaca	to varying degrees, yeah
00:35	Lajla	it just treats it like a string of length 1
00:35	Lajla	Most functional language eschew such things because it's not 'mathematically elegant' if you get what I mean
00:35	replaca	yup
00:36	replaca	I've ridden the Haskell train
00:36	replaca	:)
00:36	Lajla	Yeah, it's not per se a thing of dynamic typing, scheme would also not do that.
00:36	replaca	but rich type systems are just one part of functional programming
00:37	Lajla	It's more 'elegance over practicality' I guess
00:37	Lajla	And well, it _could_ go wrong.
00:37	replaca	Lajla: really, where is scheme different in that than Clojure
00:37	replaca	?
00:38	Lajla	As in functional programming, functions tend to in some way be isomorphic to mathematical definitions, and if the definition is 'inconsistent', you often get infinite recursion or something nonsensical.
00:38	Lajla	Well, scheme would pretty much never do that.
00:38	Lajla	Such 'conveniences'
00:38	replaca	I don't think Clojure really does either
00:38	Lajla	It would either do something different with that character, or report a type error.
00:38	Lajla	Well, like
00:38	Lajla	the -> macro.
00:38	replaca	Unless you mean at the protocol/interop level where you overload a function
00:38	Lajla	Like (-> f y x z)
00:39	Lajla	If y x z are symbols it does something fundamentally differetn then when they are lists.
00:39	replaca	why couldn't you do the same thing in Scheme
00:39	replaca	I can do that in CL.
00:39	Lajla	Scheme would say you have to use (-> 1 (inc) (inc) and not (-> 1 inc inc)
00:39	Lajla	Well, you can.
00:39	Lajla	But the standard will never do that.
00:39	Lajla	and it's seen as 'un scheme'
00:39	replaca	the macro just looks at what they are when it's expanding
00:40	replaca	oh yeah, that's a stylistic difference
00:40	Lajla	Yeah, but such things are generally eschewed in functional programming langauge.
00:40	Lajla	And clojure does do these things quite often, because it's practical.
00:40	Lajla	Whereas most functional languages tend to favour 'mathematical elegance'.
00:40	replaca	yup and because it makes java interop better
00:40	replaca	yup, no doubt
00:41	Lajla	Most functional langauges would also not care that much about java interop. =P
00:41	replaca	to greater or lesser degrees
00:41	Lajla	But these things somewhat make me 'uncomfortable' I guess, I would write (-> 1 (inc) (inc) (inc)) myself.
00:41	replaca	for example, Scala is closer to Clojure on that scale, though with a different set of design desicions
00:42	replaca	*decisions
00:42	replaca	I think you get used to the idiom and it becomes transparent
00:42	replaca	similar discussions happen in the Haskell world about how far to take point-free expressions
00:43	Lajla	replaca, hmm, explain?
00:43	Lajla	You mean point free function definitions?
00:44	replaca	well you an use point-free expressions all over and it's not defining a function per se
00:44	replaca	and it's mind warping when you start to read code that does that a lot
00:45	replaca	but then you get used to it and you find that it's actually a pretty natural way to express yourself
00:45	Lajla	Ahhh
00:45	Lajla	but point free expressions retain the mathematical elegance.
00:45	Lajla	More so than non point free I would say.
00:46	replaca	right, but lots of folks don't like them cause they feel opaque
00:46	Lajla	It's not about redability so much as that in the case of (-> 1 inc) it checks to what inc evaluates, and in the case of (-> 1 (+ 1)) it doesn't check what the (+ 1) expressione valuates to, but just inline inserts it.
00:46	Lajla	I love these people that express reasonably complex list operations by folding ( : ) and all that though. =P
00:47	replaca	I know, that's the part I miss in Clojure
00:47	Lajla	The only one I can do I think is append x y = foldr ( : ) y x
00:47	Lajla	Not TCO?
00:47	amalloy	Lajla: -> doesn't check what inc evaluates to at all
00:48	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(-> 1 bamboozle))
00:48	sexpbot	⟹ (bamboozle 1)
00:48	amalloy	it just sees that it's a symbol rather than a list
00:48	replaca	Lajla: nope. I tend to use lazyness more often
00:48	replaca	or HOFs that give me lazyness
00:49	replaca	amalloy: that's right, the whole thing is done before evaluation starts as a structural transformation
00:49	replaca	a game that's mostly unique to lisps
00:50	amalloy	replaca: of course. lajla sounded like he might be confused about that
00:50	replaca	amalloy: yup, just expanding on your point a little
00:53	amalloy	Lajla: and if you think about it, it couldn't possibly work even if there were a way for ->> to know what type the expression evaluated to: ##(macroexpand '(->> x (fn [x])))##(macroexpand '(->> x ((fn [x]))))
00:53	sexpbot	(macroexpand (quote (->> x (fn [x])))) ⟹ (fn* ([x] x))
00:53	sexpbot	(macroexpand (quote (->> x ((fn [x]))))) ⟹ ((fn* ([x])) x)
00:53	KirinDave	Man I wish I hadn't missed the start of this conversation
00:54	replaca	KirinDave: I'm not sure it's that exciting :)
00:54	amalloy	KirinDave: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-11-24.html has most of it
00:54	amalloy	but it's not that interesting really
00:55	Lajla	amalloy, yeah, sorry, my phrasing was bad.
00:55	Lajla	I meant that in the case of a symbol, it inserts it like that, and with a list, it does some thing that is totally unrelated.
00:56	replaca	Lajla: makes sure it's a list and adds the predecessor as the 2nd element
00:56	replaca	simple enough
00:56	Lajla	Yeah, but it does a completely unrelated thing if it's a symbol.
00:56	Lajla	Maybe it works out on the 'conceptual' level.
00:56	replaca	Lajla: no, it makes sure it's a list
00:56	amalloy	Lajla: you keep using that word. i don't think it means what you think it means
00:56	Lajla	But on the mechanical level it's bizarre.
00:56	replaca	that was the first part
00:57	Lajla	the -> macro performs two completely unrealted operations depending on whether it ś a symbol or a list.
00:57	Lajla	unrelated*
00:58	amalloy	Lajla: (factorial n) does two completely unrelated operations depending on whether n is greater than one
00:58	Lajla	Yap
00:58	replaca	,((fn [x] (if (list? x) x (list x))) '(a b c) )
00:58	clojurebot	(a b c)
00:58	Lajla	and that is why I do not like such a definition of factorial.
00:58	amalloy	it's like you're objecting to the fact that clojure has an (if) form
00:58	replaca	,((fn [x] (if (list? x) x (list x))) 'a )
00:58	clojurebot	(a)
00:58	Lajla	Either generalize it to all numbers, or live with the fact that it doesn't terminate if it ś negative.
00:59	replaca	same operation as the first step
00:59	KirinDave	Lajla: That seems like an impractical stance.
00:59	Lajla	Maybe, but avoiding it makes me uncomfortable using a language.
00:59	amalloy	Lajla: if you prefer, it does something different when n is 1 (return 1) than when it isn't (do some multiplication)
00:59	KirinDave	Lajla: Besides, we can't express all numbers on our computers :)
01:00	Lajla	Well, let me rephrase, all numbers it doesn't give a type error on.
01:00	KirinDave	There's always more of them, you see? :D
01:00	Lajla	I'd rather have two different macros for both cases.
01:00	replaca	Lajla: even in mathematics, that's not a useful definition
01:00	Lajla	replaca, what isn't?
01:01	replaca	Factorial not special-casing 1
01:01	Lajla	Oh, I wasn't talking about that.
01:01	replaca	ok
01:01	Lajla	I mean
01:01	Lajla	íf you supply a negative number.
01:01	Lajla	You can either guard against that
01:01	Lajla	Or accept that it goes on forever.
01:01	Lajla	You can let it report an error.
01:01	Lajla	Which is cool with me.
01:02	Lajla	Or say that the factorial number of negative numbers is like 1.
01:02	Lajla	Which is quite commonly done.
01:02	replaca	ok, but how does that relate to -> ?
01:02	Lajla	Use (<= 0 n) instead of (zero? n)
01:02	KirinDave	replaca: He wants function definitions to be continuous.
01:02	Lajla	Well, the idea is that factorial then performs two functions which I think should have different names.
01:02	replaca	You mean to accept all elements of the domain
01:03	Lajla	At the very least, it's not the factorial function
01:03	amalloy	KirinDave: that's an interesting way to think about what he's saying
01:03	Lajla	the factorial function is only defined on naturals.
01:03	KirinDave	Lajla: Lots of functions are defined as different operations within ranges.
01:03	Lajla	KirinDave, sure.
01:03	Lajla	But those more often than not freak me out.
01:03	Lajla	And are more often just approximate modeling of real life cases.
01:03	KirinDave	Lajla: Then recursion must make you tremendously uncomfortable, as must induction.
01:03	Lajla	Than something that follows from some elegant mathematical result.
01:03	replaca	Lajla: the real world is like that
01:03	Lajla	replaca, well, an approximate model of the real world is like that.
01:04	replaca	even in advanced math
01:04	Lajla	KirinDave, the difference is in the case of recursion is that there is a base case, and not a base range.
01:04	Lajla	And it's actually still 'continuous' then quite often, as you phrased it.
01:04	Lajla	Like, the definition of the factorial.
01:04	amalloy	Lajla: how do you feel about fobonacci numbers?
01:04	Lajla	Where 0 is the base case.
01:05	Lajla	I'm also fine with that.
01:05	amalloy	*fib
01:05	replaca	In response to Lajla, I'll make KirinDave's night with http://xkcd.com/224/
01:05	Lajla	But my point about the -> macro is that, to my intuition/feeling, it perofrms two unrelated operations.
01:05	KirinDave	replaca: Haha. You did the opposite
01:05	Lajla	And I'd rather see those have different names.
01:05	KirinDave	replaca: I am one of the writers for xkcdexplained.
01:05	replaca	KirinDave: that was sarcasm, I know that :)
01:06	Lajla	What is xkcdexplained?
01:06	KirinDave	Lololol
01:06	KirinDave	I never know
01:06	KirinDave	Actually I haven't written there for months.
01:06	KirinDave	Ian finally kicked off.
01:06	amalloy	Lajla: i'd wager that it's xkcd, explained
01:06	KirinDave	We couldn't take it.
01:06	Lajla	Explained to whom?
01:06	Lajla	You mean people who are not as smart as I and don't get them on their won?
01:06	KirinDave	Lajla: Why not check out the site?
01:06	Lajla	Ah
01:06	replaca	KirinDave: nonetheless, there are a few (like that one) that I simply can't resisit
01:06	Lajla	you could not explain the mutual dream one.
01:06	replaca	*resist
01:07	KirinDave	replaca: He hits a few good ones.
01:07	Lajla	KirinDave, I'm not too pleased with your explanation of the knuth joke.
01:07	Lajla	I think the principle of explosion deserves a mention.
01:08	Lajla	But
01:08	Lajla	the strip is actually incorrect.
01:08	Lajla	The idea is I think that by exploding logic, she proves that all statements are true, including the negation of any statement.
01:08	Lajla	But that does not disprove anything.
01:08	replaca	I think that we need an existence proof of something Lajla is happy with before proceeding :)
01:08	Lajla	That's the fun thing a lot of people misunderstanda bout it.
01:09	Lajla	It proves that all statements are true, including for intance that the system is consistent
01:09	Lajla	and that it's not consistent at the same time.
01:09	Lajla	The whole fact that you can disprove statements by proving their negation relies on the assumption that the model is consistent.
01:09	Lajla	You can't really disprove statemnets any more by proving their negation once the model is inconsistent. =P
01:09	Lajla	replaca, =(
01:10	KirinDave	Lajla: I ahven't written for awhile. But I have a favorite you might enjoy
01:10	Lajla	I do have dysthimia.
01:10	replaca	An actual Clojure question: has "as-str" migrated to core in 1.3?
01:10	Lajla	KirinDave: http://thisdomainisirrelevant.net/1238
01:10	Lajla	How do you like that one?
01:11	replaca	Lajla: sorry to hear it.
01:11	KirinDave	Lajla: http://xkcdexplained.com/post/805553793/real-medicine
01:11	Lajla	THat one is also incorrect.
01:11	Lajla	I know that one.
01:11	KirinDave	Lajla: Oh?
01:12	Lajla	It actually inverses it.
01:12	Lajla	It would be homoeopathic.
01:12	KirinDave	I can't make heads or tails of what you're saying.
01:12	Lajla	If semen praevented pregnancy.
01:12	Lajla	Not caused it.
01:12	KirinDave	Indeed.
01:12	dthomas	Can anyone tell me what the equivalent of (vec collection) is for lists? Just (apply list collection)?
01:12	Lajla	Or ehh
01:12	Lajla	The reverse
01:12	Lajla	if it was a homeopathic anti-conception means
01:12	amalloy	dthomas: list* should work, i think
01:13	KirinDave	Lajla: Most people don't understand the actual rules of homeopathy.
01:13	amalloy	&(list* [1 2 3])
01:13	sexpbot	⟹ (1 2 3)
01:13	KirinDave	Lajla: That they actually use a "law of sympathy"
01:13	KirinDave	As a preventative.
01:13	replaca	KirinDave: so if we do understand, are we any better off?
01:13	KirinDave	replaca: Oh no. The whole thing is absurd
01:14	KirinDave	replaca: But that explanation touched off a firestorm.
01:14	replaca	(since asking about Clojure is getting me nowhere :))
01:14	KirinDave	replaca: We actually got ddos'd for it.
01:14	replaca	KirinDave: excellent! that's an accomplishment
01:14	KirinDave	I was pleased.
01:14	Lajla	KirinDave, I guess most people think homoeopathy is basically 'natural cures'
01:14	_mst	homoeopathic DoS attacks... one packet an hour or something?
01:15	KirinDave	_mst: Haha
01:15	Lajla	Little do they know that there is no difference between 'natural' and 'unnatural'and that advertisement guys just invented that.
01:15	KirinDave	_mst: Content-Length attacks could work that way.
01:15	Lajla	_mst, that would be a homoeopathic guard against DoS
01:15	Lajla	replaca, also, dysthimia is not that bad I guess, especially because you never knew any other.
01:16	dthomas	&(list? (list* [1 2 3]))
01:16	sexpbot	⟹ false
01:16	Lajla	It's more of a 'symptomal' disease I guess, in that people who have it would have accepted it as normal because it's all they know and just display symptoms like lack of sleep, energy, appitite et cetera.
01:16	replaca	Lajla: I think it's natural that we all feel like the balance we have is the only one to have
01:17	Lajla	Yeah
01:17	Lajla	If someone asks me 'are you unhappy', I can't really answer that, I have nothing to compare it to.
01:17	dthomas	amalloy: So the result of list* doesn't seem to be a "list," is that right?
01:17	replaca	Lajla: the cheerleaders feel the same way at the other end of the spectrum
01:17	Lajla	All I know is that I display certain outward symptoms associated with it.
01:17	Lajla	Yeah, I guess.
01:17	Lajla	It's a philosophical thing.
01:17	Lajla	Like 'when I see green, do I see the same green others think'
01:17	replaca	yup
01:18	amalloy	dthomas: right, it's probably a lazy-seq. but that will behave like a list in every way i can think of
01:18	amalloy	&(map class (apply list [1 2 3]) (list* [1 2 3]))
01:18	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$class
01:18	amalloy	&(map class [(apply list [1 2 3]) (list* [1 2 3])])
01:18	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.lang.PersistentList clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq)
01:19	dthomas	amalloy: You may be right about that, that this code will work despite it not actually being a list.
01:20	amalloy	dthomas: most code will work fine on any seq
01:20	Lajla	But to be honest, I'm not so sure about the desirability of 'happiness', a lot of recent studies seem to suggest that truly ignorance is bliss. And happiness is basically caused by just ignoring any bad news or finding a way to not believe in it.
01:20	amalloy	what are you doing that you think you need a list for?
01:20	Lajla	Are lists used in clojure often for anything but code?
01:20	dthomas	amalloy: Reading forms from Emacs/SLIME in the Clojure swank server.
01:21	replaca	Lajla: lists are useful when you want to be able to add at the front cheaply
01:23	Lajla	Ahh
01:23	Lajla	yeah
01:23	Lajla	How well does this conj work in generic code by the way?
01:23	Lajla	I mean, with lists adding the other way than vectors
01:25	amalloy	dthomas: what about just seq? ##(seq [1 2 3])
01:25	sexpbot	⟹ (1 2 3)
01:25	amalloy	##(conj (seq [1 2 3]) 0)
01:25	sexpbot	⟹ (0 1 2 3)
01:27	dthomas	amalloy: Certainly seems to have the same effect as list*.
01:28	dthomas	amalloy: (In this case where I have just one collection.)
01:28	amalloy	dthomas: list* isn't really designed for this nonsense; it's actually the same as (apply list) but i thought of it first :P
01:28	Raynes	Man, don't use ## when it's the first thing in the message. :\
01:28	amalloy	Raynes: the # key is easier for me to find than &
01:29	Raynes	Maybe so, but it's a more limited form of evaluation designed for embedded code that people unfamiliar with him might thing is the shoddy default.
01:29	Raynes	think, even
01:29	amalloy	if this is wrong, i don't want to be right
01:29	Raynes	You make sexpbot cry.
01:30	amalloy	$kill Raynes
01:30	sexpbot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
02:47	amalloy	thanks clojurebot
02:49	replaca	wow that was impressive
02:49	replaca	I caused that by checking in a fix to java-utils
03:00	amalloy	$mail hiredman fyi, around midnight pacific time clojurebot sent this message five times in as many seconds: (notice) [clojure/clojure-contrib] null - null (null) null
03:00	sexpbot	Message saved.
03:02	Raynes	amalloy: He wont get that.
03:02	Raynes	amalloy: He has sexpbot ignored.
03:02	Raynes	But your highlighting should suffice.
03:02	amalloy	Raynes: i figured one or the other would do it
03:03	Derander	hot
03:03	kryft	#clojure - a warm community
03:06	amalloy	heh. silent for hours, until someone drops a gay joke. good old irc
03:06	replaca	let's see if clojurebot spews again
03:13	Lajla	I like sexpbot more.
03:13	Lajla	It doesn't ignore me.
03:33	jackdempsey	anyway familiar with lein? trying to install relevance's labrepl and i can't tell if it's lein or their project that's borked
03:35	Lajla	Serial Experimens Lein
03:43	LauJensen	"Java is a DSL for taking large XML files and converting them to stack traces" AHAHAH :)
03:47	kryft	LauJensen: Ouch. :)
03:48	dirchh	LauJensen: quite appropriate. where's that quote from?
03:49	LauJensen	dirchh: twitter somewhere
04:02	jave	I want to start a repl inside a portlet running inside liferay, so I can change the code interactively. any hints?
04:11	raek	clojure.main/repl
04:12	jave`	Thanks
06:19	bartj	how do I print the unicode code-points of a string?
06:24	raek	,(map int "åäöčšž")
06:24	clojurebot	(229 228 246 269 353 382)
06:27	bartj	raek, I thought unicode code points were something like this: \u00a0
06:27	bartj	if no, then what is \u00a0 ?
06:28	dreamreal	bartj: code points are integers, too. \u00a0 is an escaped form of a hex value.
06:28	bartj	dreamreal, thank you; but I am unable to get the hex value of \u00a0
06:29	dreamreal	you don't know what a0 is in decimal?
06:29	dreamreal	,(map char 160)
06:29	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
06:30	dreamreal	darn it, had to try :)
06:30	dreamreal	(I don't know clojure)
06:30	Tordmor	,(map char '(229 228 246 269 353 382))
06:30	clojurebot	(\å \ä \ö \č \š \ž)
06:30	dreamreal	,(map char '(160))
06:30	clojurebot	(\ )
06:30	dreamreal	there you go.
06:34	bartj	dreamreal, Tordmor thank you very much
06:34	bartj	the wierd thing is that 160 looks like space but it isn't!
06:35	dreamreal	it... doesn't.
06:35	dreamreal	#160 is a nonbreaking space in html, though
06:46	trybeingarun	(def head-fibo (lazy-cat [0 1] (map + head-fibo (rest head-fibo))))
06:46	trybeingarun	This is from programming clojure
06:47	trybeingarun	Can anybody explain how this works?
06:47	Chousuke	trybeingarun: lazy-cat doesn't actually evaluate all the expressions immediately
06:48	trybeingarun	Okay
06:48	trybeingarun	My first question is what is map expected to do here?
06:48	trybeingarun	When map is called the first time would head-fibo have been defined?
06:48	Chousuke	,(map + [1 2] [10 20])
06:48	clojurebot	(11 22)
06:48	kensho	Hi. Is there something like doto for static methods? This is a bit verbose: (Math/round (Math/max (Math/ceil (Math/sqrt total-area)) (* max-width 1.2)))))
06:48	Chousuke	trybeingarun: yes.
06:49	Chousuke	trybeingarun: when you def head-fibo, you just get a thunk. and then when you get to the third element of the sequence, lazy-cat evaluates the (map ...)
06:49	Chousuke	trybeingarun: and since head-fibo is defined by then, it works
06:50	trybeingarun	Okay.
06:50	kensho	Hi. Is there something like doto for static methods, I'd like to make this shorter: (Math/round (Math/max (Math/ceil (Math/sqrt total-area)) (* max-width 1.2)))))
06:50	Chousuke	kensho: use ->
06:51	Chousuke	or you can write your own macro
06:51	kensho	Ah I see. I will try to wrap my head around this :) thanks
06:53	Chousuke	I don't think you can do much in that case though.
06:54	Chousuke	too bad clojure doesn't yet have macrolet. Could write a macro like (with-statics Math [round max ceil sqrt] (round ...))
06:55	trybeingarun	I would like to understand lazy-seq better. Is there any good material available for that?
06:55	trybeingarun	I mean right from intro level material...
06:57	Chousuke	I don't know, but if you have something specific that you don't understand, just ask :)
06:58	jave	I'm having trouble overriding a method with aot and calling a super method. I get a circular call chain and a stack overflow
06:59	trybeingarun	I am not getting how lazy-seq works. I would like to understand what the flow for
06:59	trybeingarun	(take 1 head-fibo)
06:59	trybeingarun	(take 2 head-fibo) similarly for 3
06:59	trybeingarun	works
06:59	kensho	Chousuke: If I understand correctly -> won't get rid of the repetive "Math" identifier. But it's possible with a custom macro?
06:59	Chousuke	kensho: yeah
06:59	kensho	ok I will look into macros then, thanks!
06:59	trybeingarun	I want to know how the synthesis of the new seq element happens
07:00	Chousuke	trybeingarun: a lazy seq is basically just one thing: a chunk of code that generates the rest of the sequence
07:00	Chousuke	that is, until it's realised
07:00	Chousuke	once the element is generated, it's cached
07:00	Chousuke	so on subsequent accesses the code is not re-executed
07:00	trybeingarun	Understood.
07:01	trybeingarun	Coming back to the example, how does (head-fibo) work?
07:02	Chousuke	lazy-cat creates a lazy sequence by lazily evaluating the expressions you give to it.
07:02	Chousuke	:P
07:02	Chousuke	so it returns a thunk that at first does nothing
07:03	Chousuke	but when you request the first element, it evaluates the first expression (in this case, [0 1])
07:03	Chousuke	and takes the first element of that (after making a sequence out of it, so it actually becomes (0 1))
07:04	trybeingarun	Okay. I am beginning to understand it
07:04	Chousuke	then the "rest" of the sequence is another thunk that does the same for the next element of the vector
07:04	Chousuke	and the rest of that then notices there are no more elements in the vector and evaluates the next expression (the map one)
07:05	Chousuke	which gives another lazy sequence; an infinite one in this case.
07:05	Chousuke	head-fibo is not the easiest lazy seq to explain I guess :P
07:06	trybeingarun	May be.
07:06	trybeingarun	But thanks man. At least I am beginning to see the point
07:06	Chousuke	but let's make a custom one. (defn lazy-ones [] (lazy-seq (cons 1 (lazy-ones))))
07:07	trybeingarun	Ah, a simple one at last!!!
07:07	Chousuke	when you call lazy-ones, it returns a thunk that, when you call seq on it, retuns a sequence of 1, (lazy-ones)
07:08	trybeingarun	okay
07:08	Chousuke	but since lazy-ones returns only a thunk, the recursion stops until you really access the next element of the sequence. :)
07:08	Chousuke	in which case you get another 1 and a thunk
07:08	trybeingarun	This is how it does not blow up the stack
07:09	Chousuke	yeah
07:09	Chousuke	when the thunk is evaluated, the original function call has already completed.
07:09	trybeingarun	so internally it maintains some sort of a state which says how many elements have actually been realized
07:10	trybeingarun	and then it will have some object to compute the next element
07:10	trybeingarun	am i getting it right?
07:10	Chousuke	You can use parameters too (defn increments [n] (lazy-seq (cons n (series (inc n)))))
07:11	Chousuke	trybeingarun: there's no need for that.
07:11	Chousuke	trybeingarun: since sequences are just linked lists of head -> rest
07:11	Chousuke	and the rest can be either a thunk, or another sequence which is head -> rest
07:12	trybeingarun	Okay.
07:12	trybeingarun	Fine. Think I got it. Let me think abt the example you gave and also the example in the book and get back :)
07:13	Chousuke	try writing some simple lazy seqs yourself
07:13	Chousuke	see how it works.
07:13	trybeingarun	Okay. I will write some code with some side effects
07:13	Chousuke	you can also add print statements to the function so you can see whenever one is evaluated
07:15	Chousuke	(let [ones (fn ones [] (lazy-seq (print "got one; ") (cons 1 (ones)))) s (ones)] (doseq [i (take 3 ones)] (print "a " i)) (take 3 ones))
07:16	Chousuke	,(let [ones (fn ones [] (lazy-seq (print "got one; ") (cons 1 (ones)))) s (ones)] (doseq [i (take 3 ones)] (print "a " i)) (take 3 ones))
07:16	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: sandbox$eval589$ones__590
07:16	Chousuke	oops
07:16	Chousuke	,(let [ones (fn ones [] (lazy-seq (print "got one; ") (cons 1 (ones)))) s (ones)] (doseq [i (take 3 s)] (print "a " i)) (take 3 s))
07:16	clojurebot	got one; a 1got one; a 1got one; a 1
07:16	clojurebot	(1 1 1)
07:17	Chousuke	(note it's not printing the "got one"s twice even though I do (take 3 s) twice)
07:18	trybeingarun	Ya
07:20	Chousuke	take itself returns a lazy seq though; but in this case both of those sequences are forced to be fully realised.
07:20	Chousuke	one by doseq and one because it's the return value that is printed
07:24	trybeingarun	understood your code and stu halloway's code dude
07:24	trybeingarun	I did not realize that head-fibo itself is of type lazy-seq
07:25	trybeingarun	now I am getting how the sequence is being generated :)
07:25	trybeingarun	Thanks Chousuke :D
07:28	djpowell	what's the deal with jira - it says i have an account, but i cant figure out what the password might be - were the accounts imported from assembla, without passwords?
07:50	raek	trybeingarun: try this: https://gist.github.com/480608
07:50	raek	it makes it very clear when the seq is forced
07:54	raek	although, it does not add very much to Chousuke's explanation
08:26	jweiss_	is there an explanation somewhere for what ns is exactly? Is it the namespace of the surrounding code? Can i refer to it in a macro? If so, does it refer to the namespace of the macro or the place where the macro is called?
08:27	jweiss_	i suppose what i'm asking is, when is the value of ns changed.
08:31	chouser	jweiss_: the value of ns is changed by in-ns and ns
08:31	jweiss_	chouser: what about at compile time
08:32	LauJensen	ClojureQL news: 100% transparent auto-parameterization of queries now in MASTER! :)
08:32	chouser	jweiss_: you should be able to refer to it in a macro (not a macro expansion) and get the namespace being compiled while the macro is being expanded
08:33	jweiss_	chouser: the ns where the macro lives, or the ns where the macro call lives?
08:35	jweiss_	ok seems to be where the call lives
08:35	jweiss_	that's what i wanted
08:36	raek	jweiss_: it depends on whether you do (defmacro ... ns ...) or (defmacro ... `(... ns ...))
08:36	jweiss_	raek: ns is not quoted
08:37	raek	hrm.
08:37	jweiss_	oh hm, but i did a "use" on the ns with my macro. wonder if it behaves the same if i did require.
08:38	raek	ns is probably dynamically bound during the compilation of the macro
08:38	raek	and a reference to the var (not the value) is compiled into the macro
08:39	raek	(let [my-ns ns] (defmacro ...)) could perhaps be a way
08:39	raek	I guess it depends on what you are trying to do
08:40	jweiss_	raek: what i want is when i call my macro, i want the macro to get the ns-publics from the namespace I called the macro from, pull the metadata from each 'public', and create a call to gen-class
08:40	jweiss_	public = ns-publics
08:41	jweiss_	my macro works in that it generates the classes for the right namespace. but it has no annotations. but if i expand the macro myself at the repl, and paste that code in place of the call to the macro in my test file, and compile it, i get the annotations.
08:42	jweiss_	that's the part that i'm scratching my head about.
08:44	jweiss_	perhaps this has something to do with the order things are compiled
08:46	chouser	your macro is itself expanding to the gen-class form?
08:46	jweiss_	chouser: correct
08:47	chouser	and you AOT compile the namespace that includes the use of that macro, and can observe that it generates the class but without annotations.
08:47	jweiss_	chouser: that's right
08:47	chouser	can you paste somewhere the macro itself and its expansion?
08:48	jweiss_	chouser: yes, 1 sec
08:56	jweiss_	chouser: https://gist.github.com/712134
09:01	chouser	jweiss_: testng-map is a map? Is there any chance it's values are classes instead of symbols?
09:03	jweiss_	chouser: i guess they're classes, i just use the class name with no quote
09:03	chouser	that may be the problem
09:03	jweiss_	as in {:beforeSuite BeforeSuite ...
09:03	chouser	gen-class is probably expecting symbols that name classes, not classes themselves
09:04	chouser	so try either quoting your class names, or in as-annotation get the symbol name of the class
09:04	chouser	,(symbol (.getName Integer))
09:04	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
09:05	jweiss_	chouser: ok thanks
09:11	jweiss_	chouser: THANK YOU!!! that was the problem. i could have spent days on this and never figured that out.
09:12	chouser	heh
09:12	chouser	you're quite welcome. it's a common "gotcha" with metadata
09:12	raek	,java.lang.String
09:12	clojurebot	java.lang.String
09:12	raek	,'java.lang.String
09:12	clojurebot	java.lang.String
09:13	chouser	right
09:13	raek	,(map class [java.lang.String 'java.lang.String])
09:13	clojurebot	(java.lang.Class clojure.lang.Symbol)
09:13	raek	tricky.
09:13	jweiss_	well i guess i am happy that my problem wasn't an obvious one that i should have seen myself :)
09:18	AWizzArd	Let's say I want to write a dynamical web application. Many people would go with html+js, but let's say I want to run the client inside a JVM instead of a Webbrowser-VM, and do it with Clojure+Swing. Now instead of html my server transfers specs (lists) out of which the client can construct the UI components and position them.
09:19	chouser	I wonder if it'd be worth having classes print themselves differently than symbols, and then optionally read with that syntax as well
09:19	AWizzArd	The JS parts become the handlers for UI elements. To transfer those I could simply send out lists to the clients which then eval those.
09:20	AWizzArd	But if I wanted to send out precompiled code, is then the best way to precompile the code on my server into a class (byte code generation) and load this from the client via Clojures DynClassLoader?
09:21	chouser	AWizzArd: would that be better than sending uncompiled s-exprs and having the client eval it?
09:21	AWizzArd	Yes, that is my question basically. I am not sure about it.
09:21	AWizzArd	It is a not so typical way to create a dynamic web app.
09:22	AWizzArd	If it were about html+js then yes, the client code would come as open source. And the browsers compile the js then to byte code for their VMs.
09:22	chouser	well, it stretches the definition of "web app" doesn't it?
09:22	chouser	if you send compiled Clojure code, the client and server Clojure versions would have to match up pretty well
09:22	AWizzArd	In some sense yes. A container JFrame plus the JVM of course would take the role of the browser.
09:23	AWizzArd	The client is just a very small application that basically just loads code from the server.
09:23	AWizzArd	Like an empty browser window so to say.
09:23	AWizzArd	Only the server hosts the (mostly static) client code and sends it out.
09:24	AWizzArd	This then tells the client how to construct itself on the other side.
09:24	maravillas	Sounds kind of scary when you say it like that
09:24	maravillas	(loads code from the server)
09:24	AWizzArd	This is what happens on 97% of all websites.
09:24	AWizzArd	They load js into the browser.
09:25	AWizzArd	Pretty static js files get a GET request, and get transmitted as clear text (source code) to the VM, where it gets compiled and executed.
09:25	maravillas	But your browser won't have the same sandbox and security that browsers get for free
09:25	maravillas	"free," of course
09:25	AWizzArd	Right. And my browser has more rights.
09:26	AWizzArd	I don't know if JS can run sql queries, do ssh, do good bits of file processing, write files to the computer of the user, etc.
09:26	AWizzArd	At least older versions of JS could basically just do some stuff on the client side. I want to do everything that Clojure allows, plus be able to reuse all Java libs that I need.
09:27	maravillas	I mentioned that as a downside :)
09:27	wooby	what's the easiest way to build a maven project against a local build of clojure?
09:27	AWizzArd	When I did JS and wanted to run a sql query, then I had to do an ajax request to the server and let the server do the work.
09:28	AWizzArd	But maybe JS can now do sql and basically access the right to run outside the browser sandbox, dunno.
09:29	AWizzArd	Currently my plan is, like chouser said, to send out lists and let the client eval them.
09:31	AWizzArd	Another option could be to try to touch the code that eval produces and send out the compiled result directly.
09:32	chouser	if you send compiled Clojure code, the client and server Clojure versions would have to match up pretty well
09:33	AWizzArd	Yes. The user receives its Clojure from an initial request during application startup.
09:33	AWizzArd	But it is true that this can be a disadvantage.
09:34	Tordmor	AWizzArd: There's java WebStart that does that. Or at least has been some years ago ;)
09:34	chouser	debugging a stream of bytecode will be trickier than debugging a stream of s-exprs
09:34	AWizzArd	Tordmor: yes, I have already used that along with Clojure successfuly.
09:34	AWizzArd	chouser: though in principle instead of Firebug the Client could use any JVM debugger :)
09:35	chouser	but without access to the source code, a JVM debugger will be less helpful
09:35	AWizzArd	But yes, with code it is of course much better.
09:35	AWizzArd	true
09:39	chouser	AWizzArd: I was once involved in a one-day spike to do roughly what you're describing using jvm+qt for the client, sending UI code from the server in the form of jython
09:40	chouser	this was before canvas tag, websockets, etc.
09:40	chouser	we thought it was an interesting way to create a thin client with a rich UI
09:40	AWizzArd	This solution has its own advantages and disadvantages.
09:40	chouser	we called it "paris" because we couldn't think of anyone else as thin and rich
09:41	AWizzArd	(:
09:42	AWizzArd	What I propose will not run on ipads and Android, but on the classical OSes on desktop PCs or notebooks it will give very much control over what the client can do, run probably more efficiently than JS, and allows us to write Clojure code, instead of having Clojure+html+JS.
09:51	chouser	I'd rather have a nice brower-compatibility lib in JS, and clojure compiling to JS, and run all that in a regular browser client
09:53	AWizzArd	This does however not solve the problem to leave the browsers sandbox, to get full control of what programs can do with a computer.
09:54	chouser	AWizzArd: it strikes me as a rare circumstance that that would be desirable
09:54	AWizzArd	For websites that want to reach hundreds of thousands of users and just presents some content it is not required.
09:55	AWizzArd	But what if you want to read data that sits in a local sql db at the client side?
09:55	chouser	browsers now come with local sql db's that can be read from js. :-)
09:56	AWizzArd	Let's say your program must be able to read from any db that Java can read from. Is that then also possible?
09:56	AWizzArd	Also, there are useful Java libs that you may want to use on the client side. Not possible with JS (without starting a JVM).
09:57	chouser	not without an extra component such as a signed java applet or browser plugin, or something like a websocket adapter for your client-side db.
09:57	AWizzArd	But sure, if there were a Clojure implementation written in JS which compiles to Browser-Byte-Code, then this would allow for ClojureScript running in browsers, which is nice for the typical case.
09:58	AWizzArd	I would more like to target a few hundred users who have specific needs. Plus there is no Clojure implementation yet written in JS as far as I know.
09:58	AWizzArd	Otherwise I could consider it again, though as I said, it would be pretty limited.
09:59	chouser	not a recent version of clojure, no.
09:59	AWizzArd	If the browsers would offer a way to go around the sandbox then the browsers could become the new JVM, with JS as their low-level language, which can compile to byte code.
10:00	chouser	AWizzArd: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/components/signed-scripts.html#privs
10:00	AWizzArd	I am not sure that JS offers random acess to huge files, or good local file handling at all
10:01	AWizzArd	chouser: yes, interesting. The browsers could come to agreements and produce slowly their replacement of Java and .NET in this decade.
10:02	AWizzArd	Let's see how soon popular programming language implementations will be available for JS.
10:03	chouser	js is already more popular than whatever language you're thinking of. :-)
10:04	AWizzArd	Yes. It sneaked in into our homes by simplicity.
10:04	chouser	or by ubiquity
10:04	djpowell	js is an excellent language for animating your geocities 'under contruction' marquee text
10:04	AWizzArd	Very light weight and simple it was, and grew over time.
10:04	AWizzArd	chouser: yes
10:05	djpowell	is there anyone around who can answer my 'how do i log in to jira' question?
10:05	AWizzArd	Now as it is so popular and gains and power the browser implementors can continue to build upon that base, and add all major functionality that can be found today in Java and .NET.
10:21	tape_dispencer	I'm having some problems using recur, there error is "Can only occur from tail position", but to me it is in a tail position. Is it appropriate to paste a 6 line function?
10:22	chouser	tape_dispencer: please paste using paste.lisp.org, gist.github.com, or something similar
10:23	chouser	(if a b c) ; b and c are tail positions, a is not.
10:24	chouser	(if a (b (x y) (z)) (c 1 2 (+ 3 4))) ; b and c are still tail positions, as is 'if', but nothing else there is.
10:24	tape_dispencer	Thank you, i was not aware of such a site
10:25	tape_dispencer	http://paste.lisp.org/display/116991
10:25	chouser	in that paste, 'cons' is in a tail position, but none of its arguments are
10:27	chouser	x is in the tail position of a function only when the return value of the whole function may be exactly x
10:27	octe	i'm tinkering with writing a game in clojure
10:27	tape_dispencer	Ohh really? Ahh. In you example, if is a special form, so it can't be in the tail position
10:28	octe	kind of wondering what a functional way of having state is
10:28	chouser	in your paste, (fn [] (cons x y)), fn will return cons, but never just x or just y, so x and y are not tail position
10:29	octe	i made a small test: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116992
10:29	octe	but that doesn't feel very scalable once the world grows
10:30	tape_dispencer	thank you chouser, I'll see what I can do to fix it!
10:30	chouser	octe: it may or may not be. Have you seen rhickey's ant demo?
10:31	chouser	tape_dispencer: I learned about moving things into the tail position while reading "On Lisp" by Paul Graham. I'm sure there are other ways to learn it. :-)
10:31	octe	chouser, nope
10:32	chouser	octe: he uses one ref for each cell of the board, plus one agent per ant moving on the board. Might be worth looking at.
10:32	dpritchett	i learned tail recursion by reading SICP-educated schemers dismissing clojure :/
10:32	dpritchett	i still havent finished sicp myself
10:32	tape_dispencer	chouser: That was a good book. I guess I need to re-read it. Thanks
10:32	octe	chouser, hmm ok
10:33	octe	is there a prettier way of doing this:
10:33	octe	(assoc world :player (assoc (:player world) :y (+ (:y (:player world)) 1)))
10:33	dpritchett	does anyone know how swannodette got websockets working in his iOS video yesterday? I've wanted to try them in clojure but didn't really know where to start
10:34	dpritchett	Socket.IO in node.js was pretty easy for me
10:34	chouser	tape_dispencer: the general technique is to pass in an accumulator instead of returning the accumulated value.
10:35	jarpiain	octe: (update-in world [:player :y] + 1)
10:35	mduerksen	octe: have a look at "assoc-in"
10:35	tape_dispencer	chouser" ohh yeah! I remember that now. Yo uhave been a great help.
10:36	mduerksen	octe: update-in is right :)
10:40	octe	thanks
10:43	dpritchett	Fogus's review of Land of Lisp is very complimentary. That was nice of him.
11:29	trybeingarun	Nice to see RH again in IRC channel!
11:44	replaca	hiredman: did you see that clojurebot was spewing nulls when I checked stuff into contrib last night?
11:57	lrenn	I've been meaning to ask this since the conj, does anyone know Rich's Go rank?
12:14	ohpauleez	lrenn: That's a good question. I also play Go, so I started wondering how many people in the community are go players
12:20	gfrlog	I'm trying to learn clojureql and am having trouble with the project function
12:20	gfrlog	the example given shows passing it a set containing one column name
12:20	gfrlog	if I give it 2 columns names I get java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentHashSet
12:21	gfrlog	,(println "echo")
12:21	clojurebot	echo
12:21	LauJensen	gfrlog: Which example?
12:22	ohpauleez	gfrlog: You should checkout #clojureql
12:22	ohpauleez	I think Lau and a few others are in there
12:22	gfrlog	I probably should
12:22	gfrlog	the example has
12:22	gfrlog	@(-> (select users (where (< :id 3)))
12:22	gfrlog	(project #{:title}))
12:22	LauJensen	gfrlog: I mean, where did you find that ?
12:23	gfrlog	the project readme on github
12:23	gfrlog	https://github.com/LauJensen/clojureql
12:23	LauJensen	gfrlog: Okay, sorry about that, its outdated, I'll update it asap
12:23	LauJensen	Check out this post http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2010/11/clojureql--1.0.0-now-in-beta.html and the example in there
12:23	gfrlog	cool, thanks
12:23	LauJensen	(-> (table :users) (project [:a :b [:c :as :d]])) ...
12:23	gfrlog	I forked the project earlier, I can update the readme if you like
12:24	LauJensen	Thanks, but I think I got it, it needs a visit anyway :) You're welcome to join us in #clojureql
12:24	gfrlog	I just added it in
12:24	gfrlog	er, joined
12:25	LauJensen	fixed
12:42	gfrlog	I use primitive dev tools like vim and "lein repl", and for months now I've had issues with the repl output buffer not flushing
12:42	gfrlog	I have to issue a second command before the output from the last one will finish printing to the console
12:43	gfrlog	this happens on every machine I work on, so I imagine this is well known?
12:43	technomancy	gfrlog: fixed in 1.4
12:43	gfrlog	that's lein 1.4?
12:44	technomancy	right. it's still in release candidate stage, but it's totally usable for everyday work.
12:44	gfrlog	okay. I'm switching now, thanks
12:45	technomancy	I never use the repl task, so the bugs there take longer to get fixed =)
12:47	gfrlog	technomancy: and I have an irrational bias against emacs, so my programs take longer to get written
12:48	technomancy	It's OK; Emacs will wait for you... as long as it takes.
12:48	gfrlog	ha
12:50	gfrlog	technomancy: it looks like upgrading to 1.4 lost my line-runner-reader-whatever stuff?
12:50	gfrlog	(up-arrow)
12:50	gfrlog	I just downloaded the script and ran "lein self-install"
12:51	gfrlog	sorry if that jumble of words wasn't specific enough
12:53	technomancy	make sure rlwrap is installed?
13:17	gfrlog	technomancy: that worked, thanks; I'd never heard of that package
13:26	technomancy	gfrlog: it's a lot better than jline, but the disadvantage is that you can't distribute it in a jar; it has to be installed separately.
13:32	rlb	If you have an operation that can be naturally expressed as a reduction, but that might need to stop somewhere in the middle and return a particular value, would it be idomatic to use reduce and throw, or something else?
13:33	chouser	reduce and throw would not be idiomatic. have you looked at 'reductions'?
13:33	leafw	what do you call a function with 2 arguments? Does it have a formal name? And a function with one argument?
13:34	rlb	chouser: I had, but had forgotten about it, thx. Though I'm not sure that'll be beter in this particular case.
13:34	qbg	Continuations would make that nice
13:35	chouser	rlb: it might not be, depending on how you determine when to stop
13:35	rlb	leafw: binary and unary?
13:35	chouser	rlb: loop/recur is often quite nice in such situations
13:35	amalloy	rlb: reductions is (i think?) lazy, so (first (filter is-okay-return-value (reductions whatever))) should do what you want
13:35	rlb	chouser: right -- I was wondering if that might actually be better here.
13:35	leafw	rlb: that's what I thought, but somehow I recall a different set of names
13:36	leafw	rlb: thanks in any case
13:36	Raynes	leafw: I call them foo and bar respectively.
13:36	leafw	Raynes: xD
13:37	amalloy	rlb: yeah, reductions is lazy, and it's not chunked, so if you filter/remove for the first valid return value, that's effectively stopping in the middle
13:37	rlb	amalloy: in this case, I want either the last value, or BAD-VALUE (nil perhaps), if that comes sooner.
13:38	rlb	I suspect loop/recur or throw is what I want -- I'll see how it goes. thx.
13:39	chouser	rlb: I'd really recommend not using throw for that kind of flow control
13:39	amalloy	rlb: (let [results (reductions ...)] (or (seq (filter is-bad? results)) (last results)))
13:40	rlb	chouser: right, I'm changing it from a reduce to loop/recur now.
13:40	rlb	(see how it looks)
13:40	rlb	Originally, it was a reduce because I didn't need to stop in the middle except when there was an actual error.
13:41	rlb	amalloy: right, though that keeps the whole seq around (which in this case would be fine)...
13:47	dpritchett	is there a clojure equivalent to the python raw string? ex: r'/home/daniel/folder name' vs. '/home/daniel/folder\ name'
13:48	replaca_	dpritchett: no, but you don't need a \ in front of a space
13:48	dpritchett	eh that was just an example
13:48	replaca_	dpritchett: and there are regex literals
13:48	dpritchett	i didn't want to say r'c:\program files\Internet Explorer' :P
13:49	replaca_	hah hah. You've got to buckle down and double the \s there
13:49	replaca_	but that's usually the only place
13:49	dpritchett	i remember getting really confused reading a regex with the double \\s, i guess the literals are a must for readability
13:49	amalloy	dpritchett: though don't newer versions of windows tolerate usage of / instead of \?
13:50	dpritchett	who knows amalloy, i use xp pro at work, vista at home, cygwin on both... hard to keep up with what's allowed and what's just a result of a customization i forgot
13:50	dpritchett	allowed by default i mean
13:50	amalloy	heh, so true
13:52	amalloy	wait until you write a bash script that uses perl to test strings against a windows-path regex. you need at least 8 \s in a row
14:12	Bahman	Hi all!
14:15	apgwoz	is the best way to get a number from a string still to use Integer/parseInt, Double/parseDouble?
14:15	dmart_	I'm pretty new at it, but I started using the reader after I encountered an integer too big for Integer
14:16	apgwoz	that makes a lot of sense
14:17	dmart_	&(read-string "123456")
14:17	sexpbot	⟹ 123456
14:17	apgwoz	that's probably the most appropriate thing to do
14:17	apgwoz	:)
14:17	dmart_	&(read-string "123456.12")
14:17	sexpbot	⟹ 123456.12
14:17	dmart_	:)
14:18	dmart_	I'm waiting for one of the knowledgeable people in here to smite me
14:18	serp__	hi guys. how do I access elements in a multidimensional array?
14:19	chouser	&(read-string "#=(clojure.core/println \"hi!\")")
14:19	Chousuke	using read is problematic in that you might not get a number
14:19	Chousuke	&(read-string "x123")
14:19	sexpbot	⟹ x123
14:19	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
14:20	amalloy	serp__: aget takes multiple indexes
14:20	serp__	oh... I am stupid and didn't see it
14:22	apgwoz	Chousuke: of course, i'm taking care of that though
14:28	Raynes	chouser: Thought you were being sneaky, didn't ya? ;)
14:28	chouser	Yes I did.
14:29	Raynes	&(* 9999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999) ; I'm still trying to figure this one out.
14:29	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
14:29	chouser	&(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(clojure.core/println \"hi!\")"))
14:29	sexpbot	⟹ hi! nil
14:29	chouser	hee hee
14:29	amalloy	chouser: omg haxxx
14:29	Raynes	chouser: Nice catch. I forgot to blacklist read-eval.
14:29	raek	&((resolve (symbol "eval")) '(+ 1 2))
14:29	sexpbot	⟹ 3
14:29	raek	Raynes: touché
14:29	Raynes	I'm pretty sure I did remember to blacklist resolve, so that one is odd.
14:30	amalloy	Raynes: (not= ns-resolve resolve)
14:30	Raynes	amalloy: Oh, right!
14:30	Raynes	Fixes, comin' up.
14:42	rata_	hi
14:42	ossareh	hey
14:42	rata_	=)
14:42	rata_	does anybody know how to import a leiningen project into eclipse?
14:42	ossareh	not me
14:43	ossareh	does anyone remember the name of the function that takes a fn and it's args and returns an fn that takes more args and applies the new args to the function
14:43	ossareh	I thought it was comp
14:44	ossareh	but seems it isn't.
14:44	rata_	partial
14:45	rata_	=)
14:45	jweiss_	ossareh: comp is like f(g(x))
14:45	rata_	a good nmemonic for that is "partial evaluation"
14:45	rata_	:)
14:46	Raynes	&(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(clojure.core/println \"hi!\")"))
14:46	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! read-eval is bad!
14:46	chouser	&(((symbol "eval") (ns-publics 'clojure.core)) '(+ 1 2))
14:46	sexpbot	⟹ 3
14:46	chouser	,(((symbol "eval") (ns-publics 'clojure.core)) '(+ 1 2))
14:46	clojurebot	3
14:47	Raynes	chouser: Man, you'd be doing a huge favor by not making me do these one at a time. :p
14:47	chouser	sorry, just came up with it
14:47	mjg123	Hi - how to fix this java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call public method of non-public class...
14:47	Raynes	<3
14:49	raek	mjg123: if the class is private, are you supposed to fiddle with it?
14:49	Lajla	&(eval (list (symbol "eval") (list (symbol "+") 1 2 3)))
14:49	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
14:49	chouser	Raynes: how will you be blocking that one?
14:49	Lajla	Buurrr
14:49	Raynes	blacklisting ns-publics.
14:49	Lajla	Raynes, you don't trust me with eval?
14:49	chouser	really?
14:49	chouser	ok
14:49	Raynes	chouser: There isn't really a way around it, unfortunately.
14:49	raek	mjg123: or is it your own class?
14:49	mjg123	no it's a com.sun class
14:50	raek	which one?
14:50	LauJensen	in case anybody cares I started on of these http://laujensen.tumblr.com for various rants
14:50	mjg123	the code is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116997
14:50	chouser	Raynes: ns-map
14:50	amalloy	Raynes: the way around it, eventually, is incremental evaluation
14:50	Raynes	Yeah.
14:50	chouser	Raynes: ns-interns
14:51	mjg123	.write is a public method on SourceDataLine (an interface) but clojure is complaining...
14:51	Raynes	chouser: amalloy and I have been cooking up some ideas for incremental evaluation that would make blacklisting useful stuff like this less important.
14:51	jarpiain	mjg123: try type hinting it as a public superclass or interface
14:51	ohpauleez	LauJensen: I always care
14:52	ohpauleez	haha :)
14:52	jarpiain	mjg123: (.write ^SourceDataLine sdl ...)
14:52	chouser	&(.findInternedVar (the-ns 'clojure.core) 'eval)
14:52	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
14:52	ohpauleez	Also, this is a good write up to happen upon, I wanted to know the details of the rewrite (saw the commit on github. attn: LauJensen)
14:52	chouser	&(.findInternedVar (the-ns 'clojure.core) (symbol "eval"))
14:52	sexpbot	⟹ #'clojure.core/eval
14:53	Raynes	I can understand how clojurebot can care a little less about how secure it is since it's sandbox is just a homemade sandbox designed especially for clojurebot. However, I have to make sure that clojail is as safe as imaginably possible by default, since I'm not the only one using it.
14:53	mjg123	jarpiain: yes
14:53	mjg123	nice one
14:53	chouser	Raynes: .getMapping .getMappings .intern
14:54	amalloy	&(class (the-ns 'clojure.core))
14:54	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.lang.Namespace
14:54	amalloy	Raynes: disallow use of clojure.lang.Namespace's interop methods
14:54	amalloy	is a better approach than chouser's suggestion
14:54	Raynes	amalloy: I'd have to disallow clojure.lang.Namespace
14:54	Raynes	What are the consequences of that?
14:55	amalloy	nothing i can think of, since you're only intercepting .foo interop calls, right?
14:56	Raynes	Blacklisting the class will mean that nothing can be called on a namespace object.
14:56	Raynes	If I remember correctly, I can still blacklist individual methods on a class if that's a problem.
14:56	Raynes	Just more tedious.
14:57	chouser	is this blacklisting via JVM sandbox or via s-expr analysis?
14:57	amalloy	Raynes: clojure functions could still be called on it, iirc
14:57	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
14:57	amalloy	chouser: sexp
14:58	amalloy	i'd prefer jvm, but Raynes assures me that's hard, and he's the one doing it
14:58	Raynes	I know essentially nothing about the JVM sandbox. I'm mostly following along with the other sandboxes at this point.
15:00	chouser	&((clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeInstanceMethod (the-ns 'clojure.core) "intern" (to-array [(symbol "eval")])) '(+ 1 2))
15:00	sexpbot	⟹ 3
15:01	chouser	sandboxes are hard
15:01	Raynes	That one is an actual bug, since I nixed the Reflector class.
15:01	amalloy	Raynes: (foo/bar) instead of (.bar foo)
15:02	Raynes	It gets expanded.
15:02	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(Integer/parseInt "1"))
15:02	sexpbot	⟹ (let* [obj-class__3987__auto__ (clojure.core/class Integer)] (clojure.core/if-not (clojure.core/some (if (clojure.core/map? clojail.core/tester) (clojure.core/let [{:keys [blacklist__3988__auto__ whitelist__3989__auto__]} clojail.core/tester] (clojure.core/fn [target... http://gist.github.com/714298
15:02	Raynes	It's probably a bug in dot.
15:04	LauJensen	ohpauleez: thanks :)
15:04	amalloy	yeah, that is weird
15:04	amalloy	Raynes: have you thought of giving sexpbot a github account so his gists aren't anonymous?
15:04	Raynes	Nope.
15:05	LauJensen	amalloy: great idea though
15:05	Raynes	It looks like I'm only checking symbols in dot here. How odd.
15:05	ohpauleez	I half thought about doing that before too
15:05	ohpauleez	or plugging solr into sexpbot
15:06	ohpauleez	so you could use him to search all previously seen solutions
15:09	amalloy	Raynes: is it because in (. Reflector invokeBlah), the target (Reflector) is a Class?
15:11	Raynes	amalloy_afk: That's probably it.
15:11	chouser	&(let [[m & a] [(the-ns 'clojure.core) (symbol "eval")] [cm & ca] (map class (cons m a))] ((.invoke (.getMethod cm "intern" (into-array ca)) m (to-array a)) '(+ 1 2)))
15:11	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class java.lang.reflect.Method is bad!
15:11	Raynes	Yeah, at least it blocks that properly.
15:12	chouser	where's it getting that from?
15:13	chouser	,(let [[m & a] [(the-ns 'clojure.core) (symbol "eval")] [cm & ca] (map class (cons m a))] ((.invoke (.getMethod cm "intern" (into-array ca)) m (to-array a)) '(+ 1 2)))
15:13	clojurebot	3
15:13	Raynes	chouser: Magics.
15:16	Chousuke	it looks like you need to replace eval with your own function :P
15:21	Lajla	Chousuke, was that addressed to me?
15:21	Lajla	Because they also won't let me def.
15:21	Lajla	But like, how does eval in clojure work.
15:21	Lajla	Is it just a clojure interpreter written in clojure?
15:21	Lajla	Like, how much is the penalty.
15:22	Lajla	How much faster is using (+ 1 2) stead of (eval '(+ 1 2)) ?
15:22	Chousuke	it's not an interpreter.
15:22	Chousuke	but it's slower, since it calls the compiler at runtime
15:23	serp__	I have a sequence of integer tuples. how do I check if the sequence contains a certain tuple? contains? doesn't work
15:23	serp__	,(contains? [[0 0]] [0 0])
15:23	serp__	=> false
15:23	clojurebot	false
15:24	Chousuke	,(some #{[0 0]} [[0 0]]) ; this is the common idiom
15:24	clojurebot	[0 0]
15:24	Lajla	Chousuke, so it's a clojure compiler written in clojure?
15:24	Lajla	Or in Java?
15:24	Lajla	So like
15:24	Chousuke	Lajla: it's the same compiler that compiles everything else.
15:24	Lajla	An arbitrary clojure program has a clojure compiler included?
15:24	Lajla	So that compiler is included with any clojure executable?
15:24	Lajla	Also, it's an interpreter.
15:24	Lajla	People need to learn their terms.
15:25	Chousuke	no, it's not an interpreter
15:25	Lajla	A compiler is a translator from one source code to another.
15:25	Chousuke	it compiles to bytecode
15:25	Lajla	An interpreter runs a program
15:25	Lajla	Yes
15:25	Chousuke	and then that bytecode is run
15:25	Lajla	an interpreter can feature compilation internally.
15:25	Lajla	Sure
15:25	Lajla	So it's an interpreter.
15:25	Chousuke	whatever
15:25	Lajla	Any interpreter uses some form of transofmration internally.
15:25	Lajla	'interpretation' just has a bad name.
15:25	Lajla	But a CPU is an interpreter formally.
15:26	Lajla	It's all too simple, an interpreter runs your program, by whatever means, a compiler translates your program into a program that does the same, but in another language.
15:26	Lajla	And almost any interpreter does feature some components inside that could be called compilers.
15:27	Chousuke	that's all completely irrelevant to the common usage of these words.
15:28	LauJensen	,(do (time (dotimes [_ 1000] (+ 1 2))) (time (dotimes [_ 1000] (eval '(+ 1 2)))))
15:28	clojurebot	DENIED
15:28	LauJensen	&(do (time (dotimes [_ 1000] (+ 1 2))) (time (dotimes [_ 1000] (eval '(+ 1 2)))))
15:28	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
15:28	LauJensen	oh right, they hate that :)
15:28	Lajla	Chousuke, what is the common usage then?
15:28	Lajla	The common usage has no meaning because it's not a formal technical term.
15:28	Lajla	It's as vague as things like 'tree', it has no place in scientific literature.
15:28	Lajla	Or 'bread'
15:29	Chousuke	I see no scientific literature here
15:30	chouser	Lajla: I can't comprehend your use of the informally defined terms "vague", "scientific", and "literature"
15:30	Lajla	Chousuke, well, this isn't scientific literature.
15:30	Lajla	But clojure's documentation ought to be.
15:30	Chousuke	,(doc eval)
15:30	clojurebot	DENIED
15:30	Chousuke	... duh
15:31	chouser	clojure's eval converts an s-expression to JVM bytecode using the one clojure compiler that is always used, and then passes it to the JVM to be run.
15:31	Chousuke	(doc eval)
15:31	clojurebot	DENIED
15:31	Lajla	And he's quite simply wrong when he says 'there is no risk of your code being interpreted', that is ludicrous.
15:31	Lajla	And I have some vague idea what he does mean with it.
15:31	Lajla	Emphasis on vague.
15:31	Lajla	But in the end, it's not a clear meaningful statement.
15:31	Lajla	The repl is an interpreter because it runs your code, by whatever means, some thing which outputs bytecode but doesn't run the process is a compiler.
15:31	Lajla	Sure
15:31	Lajla	but the repl returns that result.
15:32	Chousuke	this is all pointless. :P
15:32	Lajla	And by that, the whole stuff together is an interpeter, albeit one composed of multiple components, like any interpreter today.
15:32	Lajla	The JVM is an interpreter for one.
15:32	Lajla	As is a CPU.
15:32	Lajla	What he probably just means is 'stuff runs fast'
15:33	Chousuke	The problem is that that definition of interpreter is completely useless in an informal context.
15:33	Lajla	But really, any modern interpreter does some translation to a lower level and runs that translated code on some internal virtual machine for efficiency's sake.
15:33	Chousuke	everything is an interpreter, so why use the word at all?
15:33	Lajla	A compiler is not an interpreter.
15:33	Lajla	But the thing on which the compiler runs is.
15:33	Lajla	A compiler is a translator from one language to another.
15:34	Lajla	An interpeter is a, perhaps abstract, machine that runs a program specified in a language accordingly its definition to produce the I/O associated with it.
15:34	Chousuke	Lajla: except when you want to talk about implementation techniques for a language, there is a definition of "interpreter" that is more specific than yours.
15:34	Chousuke	Lajla: which is what is being used here.
15:34	Lajla	Chousuke, go on.
15:34	dnolen	Lajla: Joe Marshall has excellent perspective on the dichotomy of compilation/interpretation, came up on the Racket ML, http://www.mail-archive.com/users@racket-lang.org/msg02358.html
15:36	Lajla	dnolen, isn't that sort of what I said?
15:37	dnolen	Lajla: yes but perhaps not as clearly ;)
15:37	Lajla	Clarity has never been my strength.
15:37	Lajla	http://community.schemewiki.org/?interpreter I like this explanation though.
15:37	Lajla	Schemewiki is often quite excellent in making whole articles about terms and concluding at the end that the term is completely vague, useless, and should be avoided.
15:38	chouser	ugh
15:43	Lajla	chouser, you're dealing with the big boys babe.
15:46	Raynes	&((clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeInstanceMethod (the-ns 'clojure.core) "intern" (to-array [(symbol "eval")])) '(+ 1 2))
15:46	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! the-ns is bad!
15:46	Raynes	&((clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeInstanceMethod ( 'clojure.core) "intern" (to-array [(symbol "eval")])) '(+ 1 2))
15:46	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Reflector is bad!
15:46	Raynes	chouser, amalloy_afk: I just forgot to check the actual class instead of just the class of the 'object', which in this case is a class.
15:47	Raynes	chouser: I really appreciate the breakage, by the way. I'd really hate for someone other than me using clojail to run into these sorts of silly problems. <3
15:52	mrBliss`	LauJensen: are you gonna post your experiences with Awesome on that new blog?
15:53	Raynes	I'm waiting on him to blog about how he got compiz to tile.
15:53	LauJensen	mrBliss`: I might :) It was a request about that, which got me thinking about Tumblr
15:54	ohpauleez	I will write an equally long comment just reiterating the points
15:54	mrBliss`	LauJensen: I'm currently using StumpWM, the Emacs of windows manager.
15:54	Raynes	LauJensen: Why Tumblr versus your blog?
15:54	LauJensen	mrBliss`: Yea I was going to try tht myself but ran into installation problems
15:54	ohpauleez	tmux on OSX Term, Awesome running on one of my spaces on OSX, and Awesome on my Linux box
15:54	mrBliss`	LauJensen: did you try SBCL or Clisp?
15:54	LauJensen	Raynes: My blog is for in-depth lengthy Clojure posts, Tumblr is for everything else
15:54	Raynes	Sounds good.
15:54	LauJensen	mrBliss`: Ive done SBCL but not for WM
15:55	gfrlog	is there a recognized clojure style guide?
15:55	LauJensen	gfrlog: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Clojure_Library_Coding_Standards
15:56	gfrlog	awesome, thanks
15:57	LauJensen	np
15:59	mrBliss	I didn't realize you could write map, filter, every?, take-while, group-by, cycle... using reduce or Haskell's foldl/foldr
15:59	Raynes	mrBliss: It's beautiful, isn't it?
15:59	mrBliss	Raynes: exactly
16:00	mrBliss	even more concise than the beauty of cons/car/cdr
16:00	chouser	can you write clojure's map with clojure's reduce?
16:01	chouser	I don't think so
16:01	mrBliss	chouser: I just wrote the 'mapcar' version with only one collection
16:01	chouser	lazy?
16:01	clojurebot	lazy is hard
16:02	Raynes	chouser: That's not fair.
16:02	Raynes	chouser: You can write Haskell's version though. It wont be lazy in Clojure, but it would be in Haskell because Haskell is lazy.
16:02	mrBliss	(letfn [(mapf [f xs] (reduce (fn [mapped x] (conj mapped (f x))) [] xs))] (mapf inc '(1 2 3)))
16:03	amalloy	mrBliss: i thought it was pretty neat when i realized (comp) is a special case of (reduce)
16:03	mrBliss	,(letfn [(mapf [f xs] (reduce (fn [mapped x] (conj mapped (f x))) [] xs))] (mapf inc '(1 2 3)))
16:03	clojurebot	[2 3 4]
16:04	mrBliss	amalloy: it's almost like a fold-calculus (<-> lambda-calculus)
16:06	amalloy	&((reduce (fn [f1 f2] (fn [& args] (f1 (apply f2 args)))) [inc inc inc]) 1)
16:06	sexpbot	⟹ 4
16:07	amalloy	mrBliss: ^^ shiny?
16:07	mrBliss	amalloy: nice
16:40	jsanda	what's the best way to dynamically access a function in another namespace? i have a function that takes as an arg the name of another function to invoke and that function will be in a different namespace
16:41	amalloy	&(doc ns-resolve)
16:41	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-resolve is bad!
16:41	amalloy	(doc ns-resolve)
16:41	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Returns the var or Class to which a symbol will be resolved in the namespace, else nil. Note that if the symbol is fully qualified, the var/Class to which it resolves need not be present in the namespace."
16:41	amalloy	jsanda: ^^
16:42	jsanda	thx
16:42	Raynes	,ns
16:42	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
16:42	chouser	jsanda: have you considered passing the function itself or its var instead of its name?
16:42	jsanda	i won't be able to
16:43	jsanda	actually what will get passed is the name space with functions to invoke
16:45	jkndrkn	hi there. has anyone recently experienced lein deps issues related to the clojure-contrib jar?
16:45	jkndrkn	specifically:
16:45	jkndrkn	Caused by: org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver.MultipleArtifactsNotFoundException: Missing:
16:45	jkndrkn	----------
16:45	jkndrkn	1) org.clojure:clojure-contrib:jar:1.2.0-SNAPSHOT
16:45	jkndrkn	Path to dependency:
16:45	jkndrkn	1) org.apache.maven:super-pom:jar:2.0
16:45	jkndrkn	2) org.clojars.leadtune:orolo:jar:0.1
16:45	jkndrkn	3) org.clojure:clojure-contrib:jar:1.2.0-SNAPSHOT
16:46	jkndrkn	we are currently requiring clojure-contrib as follows:
16:46	jkndrkn	...
16:46	jkndrkn	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0"]
16:46	jkndrkn	[org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2.0"]
16:46	jkndrkn	...
16:46	jsanda	chouser: basicallym at start up my function is called with the name of another name space that defines some functions that i want to call
16:47	jkndrkn	my apologies ^_^;
16:47	Raynes	jkndrkn: That looks like a problem with one of your other dependencies.
16:47	Raynes	It looks like one of your other dependencies is trying to find something that doesn't exist.
16:48	jsanda	so i want to load that name space and then call functions within it. and i am making an assumption that functions with specific names/signatures exist
16:49	Raynes	https://github.com/leadtune/orolo/blob/master/project.clj this one.
16:49	Raynes	You might be able to exclude it's version of clojure-contrib, since you have your own.
16:50	Raynes	I do not remember the syntax for doing so, however.
16:50	Raynes	jkndrkn: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L38
16:51	jkndrkn	cool, thanks for clearing that up!
16:51	Raynes	I don't know if that will work for sure, but it's worth a try.
16:51	Raynes	Never had to do it before.
16:56	LauJensen	If somebody here has a Flattr account and can help me test something please msg me
17:57	lpetit	Did I already publicly say that cemerick did a splendid work for ccw lately ? Maybe not, so now's the time. Expect a new version of ccw soon, with the brand new REPL UI which is a for-mi-da-ble addition to CCW ! And it already integrates well with the work done on the editor the previous months (paredit, jump to definition) and I'm working on adding the missing pieces (code completion, more...
17:57	lpetit	...paredit commands)
17:58	lpetit	cu soon !
17:58	chouser	very cool!
17:58	lpetit	And again, because he deserves it: long live to cemerick !
18:47	ossareh	what is CCW?
18:47	ossareh	ah, http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/
18:47	amalloy	clojurebot: ccw?
18:47	clojurebot	ccw is http://github.com/laurentpetit/ccw
18:53	zakwilson	Guy L. Steele says you should learn Clojure.
18:56	mengu_	he is damn right
19:02	zakwilson	He also suggests Haskell.
19:04	jweiss_	anyone tried to use labrepl recently? running lein deps fails for me - org.apache.maven:super-pom:jar:2.0 artifact is missing
19:05	jweiss_	oh wait, it seems to really be complaining that it can't find org.clojure:clojure-contrib:jar:1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT
19:05	jweiss_	i can't figure out why it's trying to get that old version, it's not in the project.clj
19:11	jweiss_	looks like autodoc 0.7.0 depends on it
19:31	jkndrkn	Raynes: thanks for your help earlier. exclusions were of great help here. looks like a bunch of old SNAPSHOT versions of clojure and clojure-contrib are no longer offered up for download via lein deps.
20:19	amalloy	silly question here: (< x y) always confuses me - it reads like "less than x? y". does anyone have a useful mnemonic so i'll stop writing all my comparisons backwards?
20:21	_ato	amalloy: some people think of < as "ascending?"
20:26	_mst	amalloy: I just got into the habit of switching to infix in my head, I have to admit :) Read the first argument first, then the comparator, then the second argument for "x is less than y"
20:46	Lajla	amalloy, this is why you should keep English out of code I guess.
20:47	Lajla	Read it as it is, five tokens (, <, x, y, and )
21:23	Derander	it's not really x < y though, is it? it's "is this monotonically increasing?"
21:24	Derander	that's how I remember, at least
21:24	Derander	it's like a crescendo symbol
21:36	amalloy	Derander: yeah i know. but it could as easily be "is this monotonically decreasing". what's this crescendo symbol?
21:36	Derander	music
21:36	Derander	< says "get louder"
21:37	Derander	amalloy: http://www.scenicnewengland.net/guitar/notate/images/cres.gif
21:37	Derander	if you look at it like the music symbol it can only be increasing
21:38	amalloy	Derander: hm
21:41	Lajla	Derander, yap.
21:41	Lajla	But.
21:42	Lajla	Isn't x < y that also.
21:42	Lajla	But for only two arguments?
21:42	Derander	I guess
21:42	Lajla	Infix notation is stupid anyway.
21:42	Lajla	It's like the imperial system.
21:42	Derander	:P
21:42	Lajla	Completely arbitrary, stupid, overly complicated.
21:42	Lajla	The only reason people still use it is because they are used for it.
21:42	Lajla	Like how the US and UK still haven't switched to metric.
21:42	Lajla	Even though it's much simpler and self-evident how it works.
21:42	Derander	well, it limits ambiguity in handwriting
21:43	Lajla	Nahhh
21:43	Lajla	I mean
21:43	Derander	+ 2 2 2.. is that 6 or 22 + 2?
21:43	Lajla	if handwriting used praefix only.
21:43	Lajla	Then handwriting would adapt.
21:43	Lajla	I mean
21:43	Lajla	handwriting of mathematicans generally destinguishes × and x.
21:43	Lajla	And those of non-mathematicians often doesn't.
21:43	Lajla	People adapt automatically to these situations
21:43	Derander	hahahahahaha. my handwriting is just terrible everywhere
21:44	Derander	I've lost a lot of credit in my higher math classes because of the inability to distinguish "s" and "5" in my writing
21:46	amalloy	Derander: i eventually learned to write my t with a tail, cause otherwise it looked exactly like my + :P
21:46	Derander	yes!
21:46	Derander	I do that and my 7 with a cross
21:46	Derander	but 5 and s are just doomed
21:47	amalloy	what does 7 without a cross look like?
21:47	Derander	I'm talking about the cross in the middle
21:47	Derander	there are 2 horizontal lines in my 7
21:47	amalloy	oh i see
21:47	amalloy	er, no idon't
21:47	amalloy	what did it look like before you put the cross in it
21:47	Derander	7
21:48	amalloy	argh
21:48	Derander	hahaha
21:48	amalloy	ie, what was the problem you solved by putting a cross in
21:48	Derander	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Hand_written_7.png/50px-Hand_written_7.png
21:48	Derander	oh
21:48	Derander	it looks like a 1
21:48	Derander	or a t
21:48	Derander	depending on how sloppy I was
21:49	Derander	yeah
21:49	Derander	I think I just suck at handwriting :-)
23:22	technomancy	Licenser: ping
23:23	Raynes	Good luck with that.
23:23	Raynes	He is here about as often as Martin Odersky is around in #scala.
23:24	technomancy	bummer
23:24	Raynes	Poor guy. He has a needy girlfriend.
23:24	technomancy	ruh roh
23:25	technomancy	he's my only solaris tester.
23:26	Raynes	What are you needing to test? Leiningen?
23:26	technomancy	yeah.
23:26	Raynes	I have ssh access to his solaris server, if it helps.
23:27	technomancy	it's a minor thing; wanted to confirm my latest commit doesn't break jline for situations when rlwrap is not installed.
23:28	Raynes	technomancy: I'll try it out in a few.
23:28	technomancy	cool; thanks
23:28	technomancy	and here I thought Licenser was the only person on IRC who touched Solaris
23:29	Lajla	Programming and girlfriends to together like jewishness and no large megacorp in your position.
23:29	Lajla	posession
23:29	Raynes	technomancy: He really is. However, he hosts try-clojure.org, so I have to have ssh access to maintain that. I also used to run sexpbot on there before I decided to use mongo, which apparently doesn't work on solaris.
23:30	amalloy	Lajla: possession
23:30	technomancy	heh; that explains it
23:30	Lajla	I never claimed I could English with the best of them. =(
23:30	Lajla	amalloy, let's worship His Shadow together.
23:31	Lajla	You and I.
23:49	Raynes	technomancy: It can't find it's dependencies. I did lein deps in the clone with the main version of leiningen than symlinked bin/lein to ~/bin/lein-n
23:49	Raynes	Is there a magical step in between that I missed?
23:49	Raynes	then*
23:51	technomancy	strange... but bin/lein self-install should do the trick, I think.
23:51	Lajla	Bin Leiden
23:52	Raynes	technomancy: That seems to have done the trick.
23:52	technomancy	jline comes through OK?
23:53	Raynes	Checking.
23:53	Raynes	Seems to be working.
23:53	Raynes	And rlwrap isn't installed.
23:53	technomancy	excellent; thanks
23:53	Raynes	Any time.
23:54	technomancy	so I realized that class lists in :import should be wrapped in () instead of []
23:54	technomancy	I've been doing it wrong for years.
23:54	technomancy	(for indentation purposes)
23:55	Raynes	Seriously? I'm not sure I want to be right. :<
23:55	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/import-indent.html
23:56	technomancy	since [] implies entries are peers, while () implies the first entry is special and the rest should be indented together
23:56	technomancy	[] is still correct for :use :only
23:57	Raynes	Good. Not sure I could give up this gorgeous ns declaration: https://github.com/Raynes/sexpbot/blob/protocols/src/sexpbot/twitter.clj#L4